1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:15,796 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,276 --> 00:00:23,996 Speaker 2: One of my favorite podcasts is called This Week in 3 00:00:24,116 --> 00:00:27,356 Speaker 2: Virology TWIV, as it's known. 4 00:00:27,596 --> 00:00:32,716 Speaker 3: This Week in Virology, the podcast about viruses, the kind 5 00:00:33,236 --> 00:00:34,516 Speaker 3: that make you sick. 6 00:00:38,276 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 2: On the show, a prominent virologist named Vincent Racaniello has 7 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:46,276 Speaker 2: a weekly chat with colleagues from around the country, updating 8 00:00:46,516 --> 00:00:49,236 Speaker 2: their listeners on the latest news from around the world 9 00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:54,916 Speaker 2: about microbes. TWIV is a very big deal. It's the 10 00:00:54,956 --> 00:00:58,636 Speaker 2: tonight show only for virologists. For my birthday, my friend 11 00:00:58,716 --> 00:01:02,156 Speaker 2: Charles got me a twift shirt, which I'm wearing right now. 12 00:01:02,756 --> 00:01:05,236 Speaker 2: TWIF has taught me more about science than almost anything 13 00:01:05,276 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 2: I can remember, and one of their most memorable episodes 14 00:01:08,676 --> 00:01:12,396 Speaker 2: is called I Love the Smell of Vaccines in the Morning. 15 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:17,516 Speaker 3: Many people sent this to us asking our thoughts, and 16 00:01:17,636 --> 00:01:20,116 Speaker 3: so there you go, We're going to give you our thoughts. 17 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:22,676 Speaker 2: I Love the Smell of Vaccines in the Morning came 18 00:01:22,716 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 2: out in the winter of twenty twenty two. The Twivers 19 00:01:26,156 --> 00:01:28,276 Speaker 2: wanted to talk about a study that had just been 20 00:01:28,276 --> 00:01:34,276 Speaker 2: published entitled Safety, Tolerability and Viral Kinetics during tsar's COVID 21 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:35,796 Speaker 2: two Human Challenge. 22 00:01:36,116 --> 00:01:36,596 Speaker 4: This is a. 23 00:01:36,556 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 3: Study where you deliberately infect human volunteers under very carefully 24 00:01:42,236 --> 00:01:47,476 Speaker 3: controlled conditions. They're under hospital care, they're isolated. Right, You've 25 00:01:47,516 --> 00:01:52,636 Speaker 3: got anti virals and monoclonals at the ready should anything happen. 26 00:01:56,276 --> 00:02:00,876 Speaker 2: The Human Challenge trial had thirty six unvaccinated subjects, all 27 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:05,196 Speaker 2: between the ages of eighteen and twenty nine, all volunteers 28 00:02:05,236 --> 00:02:08,436 Speaker 2: who agree to be infected with COVID in a concentrated 29 00:02:08,476 --> 00:02:11,956 Speaker 2: dose administered to the nasal cavity. The aim of the 30 00:02:11,996 --> 00:02:15,196 Speaker 2: study was to figure out a crucial bit of information 31 00:02:15,516 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 2: that was still unknown in the early days of the pandemic. 32 00:02:19,236 --> 00:02:21,556 Speaker 2: How large a dose of covid do you have to 33 00:02:21,556 --> 00:02:24,156 Speaker 2: be exposed to before you get infected. 34 00:02:26,316 --> 00:02:28,836 Speaker 3: Sars kov two is not without risk. I mean it's 35 00:02:28,836 --> 00:02:32,836 Speaker 3: not a bolah, right, but it's not common cold either. 36 00:02:33,436 --> 00:02:35,716 Speaker 2: The TWIF crew went on for close to two hours 37 00:02:35,716 --> 00:02:39,956 Speaker 2: about the study, comb through every detail, went on fascinating digressions, 38 00:02:40,156 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 2: looked for insights and inconsistencies, and all came to the 39 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:44,916 Speaker 2: same conclusion. 40 00:02:45,796 --> 00:02:48,236 Speaker 3: I would love to have been privy to the discussions 41 00:02:48,236 --> 00:02:50,316 Speaker 3: that led up to the approval of this to see 42 00:02:50,356 --> 00:02:55,156 Speaker 3: what they're thinking, right, Yeah, because I have to say 43 00:02:55,836 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 3: I wouldn't be in favor of this because if one 44 00:02:57,916 --> 00:03:01,636 Speaker 3: person dies, that's the end of it, and that person's 45 00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:03,596 Speaker 3: family is pretty upset. 46 00:03:03,516 --> 00:03:07,796 Speaker 1: Pretty upset, I would say, very upset. It's difficult because 47 00:03:07,836 --> 00:03:10,276 Speaker 1: when you look at the paper and you see results, okay, 48 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:13,956 Speaker 1: and nobody died, nobody even got really sick, I mean 49 00:03:13,996 --> 00:03:17,036 Speaker 1: really sick. Okay, when you look at it from that 50 00:03:17,076 --> 00:03:19,796 Speaker 1: point of view, you go, oh wow, this is great. 51 00:03:23,716 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 2: My name is Malcolm Golbwell, you're listening to Revisionist History, 52 00:03:27,036 --> 00:03:32,636 Speaker 2: my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. This is part 53 00:03:32,676 --> 00:03:37,836 Speaker 2: two of our examination of the Minnesota starvation experiment. Part 54 00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 2: one was about what happened when ansel keyes invited a 55 00:03:40,756 --> 00:03:42,836 Speaker 2: group of young men to spend a year in a 56 00:03:42,916 --> 00:03:51,876 Speaker 2: dingy set of rooms under the University of Minnesota football stadium. 57 00:03:51,996 --> 00:03:55,356 Speaker 2: This episode is about the strange way that so many 58 00:03:55,436 --> 00:04:01,396 Speaker 2: scientists think about the morality of human experiments, like, for example, 59 00:04:01,916 --> 00:04:05,316 Speaker 2: the experiment described in the twelve episode I Love the 60 00:04:05,356 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 2: Smell of Vaccines in the morning. When the crew at 61 00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:18,956 Speaker 2: This Week in Virology start talking about the experiment, they 62 00:04:18,996 --> 00:04:19,836 Speaker 2: sound reasonable. 63 00:04:20,356 --> 00:04:24,396 Speaker 1: There was very careful consideration given by the authors and 64 00:04:24,876 --> 00:04:28,556 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other people as to whether they 65 00:04:28,676 --> 00:04:32,756 Speaker 1: turned it ethical. So no matter what we might think, okay, 66 00:04:32,996 --> 00:04:35,316 Speaker 1: there are a whole bunch of people who thought that 67 00:04:35,836 --> 00:04:36,676 Speaker 1: this was just fine. 68 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:40,276 Speaker 2: That's Rich Condent of the University of Florida, another of 69 00:04:40,356 --> 00:04:44,116 Speaker 2: the twive mainstays. Medicine is typically in the business of 70 00:04:44,156 --> 00:04:47,196 Speaker 2: trying to make sick people healthy, but there's no question 71 00:04:47,396 --> 00:04:49,916 Speaker 2: that you can learn more by making healthy people sick. 72 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:53,516 Speaker 2: Making healthy people sick means you can study your disease 73 00:04:53,556 --> 00:04:56,316 Speaker 2: from the very beginning, as opposed to the point where 74 00:04:56,316 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 2: the patient shows up in your office. It means you 75 00:04:58,916 --> 00:05:01,796 Speaker 2: can choose exactly the kind of disease you want to study, 76 00:05:02,156 --> 00:05:06,076 Speaker 2: the precise strain of virus, the exact species of bacteria. 77 00:05:06,596 --> 00:05:09,316 Speaker 2: You can choose who you want to study, young people, 78 00:05:09,396 --> 00:05:13,476 Speaker 2: old people, world class marathoners, the thin, the overweight. You 79 00:05:13,516 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 2: can compare different treatments easily and cheaply. But when you 80 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:21,596 Speaker 2: go from healthy to sick, you have a big ethical problem. 81 00:05:21,996 --> 00:05:26,276 Speaker 2: The hippocratic oath all physicians take says first, do no harm. 82 00:05:26,596 --> 00:05:30,316 Speaker 2: So how can you justify infecting healthy people with a 83 00:05:30,316 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 2: potentially deadly virus. 84 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:36,796 Speaker 1: If I were confronted personally with whether or not to 85 00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:41,476 Speaker 1: launch or support this study, I'm not sure I would 86 00:05:41,556 --> 00:05:41,796 Speaker 1: do it. 87 00:05:42,116 --> 00:05:46,156 Speaker 2: Then Brian Barker, a virologist at Drew University, chimed. 88 00:05:45,876 --> 00:05:48,116 Speaker 5: In, Yeah, I was trying to imagine if I was 89 00:05:48,116 --> 00:05:51,636 Speaker 5: in this age group, would I. 90 00:05:50,636 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 6: Be interested in being in the study. 91 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:54,956 Speaker 4: And my answer was absolutely not. 92 00:05:56,636 --> 00:05:59,156 Speaker 2: The more they talked about it, the more adamant the 93 00:05:59,236 --> 00:06:00,236 Speaker 2: Twig crew became. 94 00:06:00,836 --> 00:06:02,836 Speaker 3: I would not have approved this. If I were on 95 00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:05,356 Speaker 3: the committee, I would have voted no. At some point, 96 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:08,796 Speaker 3: there's going to be a young person who seems perfectly healthy. 97 00:06:09,116 --> 00:06:11,436 Speaker 3: There's got something we don't know about and is going 98 00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:14,396 Speaker 3: to die here. And that's what I'm concerned about. And 99 00:06:14,436 --> 00:06:16,996 Speaker 3: I don't know how. I'm sure these people don't know 100 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:20,756 Speaker 3: anything we don't know, all right. I don't know how 101 00:06:20,756 --> 00:06:22,756 Speaker 3: they can sleep at night. 102 00:06:25,356 --> 00:06:27,636 Speaker 2: Now, why are we spending so much time on the 103 00:06:27,676 --> 00:06:32,316 Speaker 2: issue that Twivers had with this obscure COVID study, Because 104 00:06:32,396 --> 00:06:36,236 Speaker 2: the Minnesota starvation experiment was exactly the same kind of 105 00:06:36,356 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 2: human challenge trial ancil Keys took thirty six perfectly healthy 106 00:06:41,956 --> 00:06:45,996 Speaker 2: young men and made them sick by starving them for months. 107 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:50,836 Speaker 2: A study like that should raise a million red flags, right. 108 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:57,716 Speaker 2: The Minnesota starvation experiment ran during the final year of 109 00:06:57,756 --> 00:07:01,076 Speaker 2: the Second World War, and the subjects were all drawn 110 00:07:01,116 --> 00:07:04,076 Speaker 2: from the pool of men who had refused military service 111 00:07:04,636 --> 00:07:10,396 Speaker 2: conscientious objectors. They were about seventy two thousand and registered 112 00:07:10,676 --> 00:07:14,556 Speaker 2: conscientious objectors in the United States during the Second World War. 113 00:07:15,396 --> 00:07:19,076 Speaker 2: Some served in the military in non combat roles. Others 114 00:07:19,196 --> 00:07:22,876 Speaker 2: chose alternative service and were put to work fighting forest 115 00:07:22,956 --> 00:07:24,836 Speaker 2: fires or staffing hospitals. 116 00:07:27,316 --> 00:07:31,596 Speaker 7: They did social work in the Deep South. They worked 117 00:07:31,596 --> 00:07:35,236 Speaker 7: as orderlies in state mental health facilities. Many of them 118 00:07:35,276 --> 00:07:39,356 Speaker 7: were digging ditches and grading roads and doing things that 119 00:07:39,596 --> 00:07:43,236 Speaker 7: simply couldn't be defined as work of national importance. 120 00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:47,116 Speaker 2: That's the historian Sarah Tracy who's been researching the Minnesota 121 00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:48,156 Speaker 2: starvation experiment. 122 00:07:48,636 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 7: Conscientious Objectors had been used as medical guinea pigs, and 123 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:59,116 Speaker 7: the US Civilian Public Service and Selective Service learn about this, 124 00:07:59,476 --> 00:08:03,916 Speaker 7: and so there is this program that about seven hundred 125 00:08:03,996 --> 00:08:08,476 Speaker 7: of the twelve thousand conscientious objectors who were doing work 126 00:08:08,476 --> 00:08:11,876 Speaker 7: of national and importance, so called work of the national importance, 127 00:08:12,596 --> 00:08:16,996 Speaker 7: about seven hundred of them enroll in medical experiments all 128 00:08:17,036 --> 00:08:17,916 Speaker 7: around the country. 129 00:08:18,596 --> 00:08:22,436 Speaker 2: Among the researchers who used human guinea pigs was ansel Keys. 130 00:08:22,796 --> 00:08:26,716 Speaker 2: He's testing the effects of thiamine deficiency and needs willing 131 00:08:26,716 --> 00:08:29,476 Speaker 2: to test subjects for a long term study in his lab. 132 00:08:30,116 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 2: Why not these religious pacifists. 133 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:36,196 Speaker 7: He writes away, and he gets several about eleven to 134 00:08:36,916 --> 00:08:41,716 Speaker 7: do vitamin experiments, and that goes very well. He's impressed 135 00:08:42,436 --> 00:08:48,236 Speaker 7: by these conscientious objectors. They're dedicated, they're committed, they're excellent 136 00:08:48,836 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 7: research subjects. 137 00:08:50,036 --> 00:08:53,476 Speaker 2: It's from this pool of volunteers that Keys draws the 138 00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 2: first of the subjects for his starvation experiment. Now, if 139 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:01,276 Speaker 2: you want to make healthy people sick, you have to 140 00:09:01,276 --> 00:09:05,356 Speaker 2: be completely sure that your subjects are acting autonomously, to 141 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:09,236 Speaker 2: use the word favored by ethicists, meaning did the subjects 142 00:09:09,476 --> 00:09:13,396 Speaker 2: make their decision to join the experiment freely, without pressure 143 00:09:13,516 --> 00:09:17,556 Speaker 2: or constraint. Were they informed of all the consequences? Did 144 00:09:17,556 --> 00:09:20,996 Speaker 2: they fully understand what they were getting into? The NYU 145 00:09:21,036 --> 00:09:24,636 Speaker 2: bioethicist Art Kaplan says, it's hard for scientists now to 146 00:09:24,716 --> 00:09:27,436 Speaker 2: find an easy answer to those questions when it comes 147 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:28,676 Speaker 2: to the starvation experiment. 148 00:09:29,076 --> 00:09:33,236 Speaker 8: Bioethicists like me have tended not to comment much on 149 00:09:33,316 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 8: this study. It's interesting, this is such a difficult case 150 00:09:37,436 --> 00:09:40,396 Speaker 8: that I think people they've steered away from it a 151 00:09:40,436 --> 00:09:40,836 Speaker 8: little bit. 152 00:09:42,916 --> 00:09:45,556 Speaker 2: What makes the case so difficult is a keys of 153 00:09:45,596 --> 00:09:48,356 Speaker 2: study was conducted in the middle of a world war. 154 00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:51,956 Speaker 2: His subjects were all men who would refuse to fight 155 00:09:52,036 --> 00:09:55,156 Speaker 2: Nazis in Europe, and because of that they were subject 156 00:09:55,196 --> 00:10:00,676 Speaker 2: to intense social pressure. People called them cowards, shirkers, morally bankrupt. 157 00:10:00,956 --> 00:10:04,116 Speaker 2: Doors were slammed in their faces. And so along comes 158 00:10:04,196 --> 00:10:08,476 Speaker 2: Ansel Keys, charismatic ansel Keys, Ansel Keys with a two 159 00:10:08,556 --> 00:10:11,636 Speaker 2: hundred point IQ score, and he says, would you like 160 00:10:11,716 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 2: to be part of a medical experiment that makes a 161 00:10:14,236 --> 00:10:19,596 Speaker 2: difference that erases the sin of your absence from the war? Well, 162 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:22,716 Speaker 2: of course they're going to say yes. So is that 163 00:10:22,756 --> 00:10:31,676 Speaker 2: an autonomous decision or is that a coerce decision? In 164 00:10:31,716 --> 00:10:34,796 Speaker 2: the previous episode, we heard how one of the volunteers, 165 00:10:35,036 --> 00:10:37,796 Speaker 2: Sam Legg, chopped off some of his fingers with an 166 00:10:37,836 --> 00:10:41,676 Speaker 2: axe in the delirium of his starvation. And then as 167 00:10:41,716 --> 00:10:45,276 Speaker 2: he lay in his hospital bed, leg begged Ansel Keys 168 00:10:45,516 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 2: to let him stay in study. Remember what he told Keys, doctor, 169 00:10:51,316 --> 00:10:53,596 Speaker 2: for the rest of my life people are going to 170 00:10:53,636 --> 00:10:56,996 Speaker 2: ask me what I did during the war. This experiment 171 00:10:57,076 --> 00:10:59,996 Speaker 2: is my chance to give an honorable answer to that. Question. 172 00:11:01,436 --> 00:11:05,276 Speaker 2: That does not sound like a rational, autonomous decision. That 173 00:11:05,356 --> 00:11:07,836 Speaker 2: sounds like someone who's terrified to go back to his 174 00:11:07,916 --> 00:11:12,436 Speaker 2: hometown and tell I'm sorry, I've now failed my country twice. 175 00:11:14,116 --> 00:11:17,076 Speaker 2: As for the second test of autonomy, did the subjects 176 00:11:17,076 --> 00:11:19,916 Speaker 2: know what they were getting into? Did they fully understand 177 00:11:19,956 --> 00:11:24,516 Speaker 2: the consequences of their participation? Of course not. That's the 178 00:11:24,556 --> 00:11:27,556 Speaker 2: whole lesson of the testimony from the eighteen volunteers in 179 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:30,556 Speaker 2: the Library of Congress. They thought they would be hungry. 180 00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 2: They didn't understand that starvation could cause him to start 181 00:11:33,516 --> 00:11:38,036 Speaker 2: losing their moral bearings. Sam Legg remembered one day when 182 00:11:38,036 --> 00:11:40,316 Speaker 2: he was out walking and saw a boy whiz by 183 00:11:40,396 --> 00:11:41,156 Speaker 2: on his bicycle. 184 00:11:41,836 --> 00:11:45,076 Speaker 9: How very brief I hope it was brief moment I 185 00:11:45,116 --> 00:11:51,636 Speaker 9: suddenly hated that that boy, and that I hate at 186 00:11:51,676 --> 00:11:56,276 Speaker 9: this point to tell you this, because it doesn't speak 187 00:11:56,356 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 9: very well for me. 188 00:11:58,116 --> 00:12:02,076 Speaker 2: Legg was a committed pacifist, a deeply spiritual man. Did 189 00:12:02,156 --> 00:12:04,956 Speaker 2: he consent to that feeling when he signed up? He's 190 00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:06,676 Speaker 2: still ashamed of it half a century later. 191 00:12:18,516 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 4: Frankly, I was amazed or shocked by the study. 192 00:12:26,196 --> 00:12:29,316 Speaker 2: That's so hard. Letterman, a bioethicist who teaches at the 193 00:12:29,436 --> 00:12:32,276 Speaker 2: Rohmbam Medical Campus in Israel, and it's one of the 194 00:12:32,316 --> 00:12:34,596 Speaker 2: few people in his field to have written about the 195 00:12:34,636 --> 00:12:38,676 Speaker 2: Minnesota starvation experiment. Letterman's big problem is with the notion 196 00:12:38,836 --> 00:12:42,276 Speaker 2: that the subjects quote unquote volunteered. 197 00:12:41,996 --> 00:12:44,756 Speaker 4: We served is ready serving the army as well. And 198 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:48,636 Speaker 4: we have a joke about volunteering for something. You don't 199 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:52,476 Speaker 4: volunteer in the army, you get volunteered, right, And we 200 00:12:52,516 --> 00:12:54,796 Speaker 4: even have a special ward for it in Himbrew. 201 00:12:54,836 --> 00:12:57,916 Speaker 2: Only in Israel is there a special word to describe 202 00:12:58,196 --> 00:13:02,996 Speaker 2: the condition of volunteering without actually volunteering being volunteered. 203 00:13:03,236 --> 00:13:07,396 Speaker 4: So I suspect that in that environment. And again I'm not, 204 00:13:07,956 --> 00:13:10,636 Speaker 4: you know, not an historian. They don't know what it 205 00:13:10,756 --> 00:13:13,956 Speaker 4: was like during that time in the early forties in 206 00:13:13,996 --> 00:13:17,596 Speaker 4: the US. But I think we need to be worthy 207 00:13:17,876 --> 00:13:22,596 Speaker 4: of any assumption of voluntariness in that context. 208 00:13:23,156 --> 00:13:27,276 Speaker 2: Letterman's point is, if an experiment isn't truly voluntary, how 209 00:13:27,316 --> 00:13:29,476 Speaker 2: do we justify making the subjects suffer? 210 00:13:29,916 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 4: If it's minimal harm, you give them diarrhea. I mean, 211 00:13:34,076 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 4: you can say, okay, that's fine, that's nothing, But if 212 00:13:36,756 --> 00:13:42,676 Speaker 4: that means that they start chewing gums, showing a bubble 213 00:13:42,716 --> 00:13:46,836 Speaker 4: gum all day long, or cutting off their fingers, or 214 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:51,316 Speaker 4: developing neurosis or developing kidney failure, or two people developed 215 00:13:51,396 --> 00:13:54,236 Speaker 4: kidney failure because of the study. I think at that 216 00:13:54,436 --> 00:13:59,036 Speaker 4: point you should say, no, that's enough. Regardless of the 217 00:13:59,076 --> 00:14:02,356 Speaker 4: potential benefits. There are some things we cannot do. 218 00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 2: There are some things we cannot do. This is exactly 219 00:14:07,716 --> 00:14:10,276 Speaker 2: where the Twitters ended up as well in their discussion 220 00:14:10,356 --> 00:14:14,836 Speaker 2: of the COVID infection study. Remember what Vincent Racanello said. 221 00:14:15,076 --> 00:14:17,396 Speaker 3: I'm sure these people don't know anything. We don't know, 222 00:14:18,076 --> 00:14:23,796 Speaker 3: all right. I don't know how they can sleep at night. 223 00:14:24,996 --> 00:14:25,236 Speaker 10: Now. 224 00:14:25,356 --> 00:14:27,996 Speaker 2: Am I happy that scientists cared deeply about the ethical 225 00:14:28,036 --> 00:14:31,596 Speaker 2: implications of their field, of course, But there's something I 226 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:34,996 Speaker 2: don't quite understand about the arguments used by those who 227 00:14:35,036 --> 00:14:39,036 Speaker 2: worry about human jallenge trials. Listen to this exchange, for example, 228 00:14:39,316 --> 00:14:42,196 Speaker 2: the twive crew are digging deeper and deeper into the 229 00:14:42,196 --> 00:14:46,516 Speaker 2: details of the COVID infection experiment and which condit starts, 230 00:14:46,676 --> 00:14:49,356 Speaker 2: reading to the fine print on the studies design. 231 00:14:50,716 --> 00:14:53,556 Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting that they apparently started out 232 00:14:53,596 --> 00:15:01,236 Speaker 1: by soliciting volunteers with an online application and got twenty 233 00:15:01,236 --> 00:15:02,596 Speaker 1: seven thousand responses. 234 00:15:03,596 --> 00:15:07,076 Speaker 2: Wait, the people who ran that study didn't have to 235 00:15:07,156 --> 00:15:10,116 Speaker 2: trick people to get them to side, or go to 236 00:15:10,196 --> 00:15:13,036 Speaker 2: some out of the way prison and use inmates as 237 00:15:13,076 --> 00:15:18,156 Speaker 2: guinea pigs. No, twenty seven thousand people looked around them 238 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:21,076 Speaker 2: at the millions of people dying from COVID and said, 239 00:15:21,636 --> 00:15:24,436 Speaker 2: I'm willing to take that risk, to make that sacrifice 240 00:15:24,516 --> 00:15:27,476 Speaker 2: for society. There was a line out the door, down 241 00:15:27,516 --> 00:15:29,476 Speaker 2: the block and clear across town. 242 00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:32,156 Speaker 11: They were coming to us saying, we're in the middle 243 00:15:32,156 --> 00:15:32,876 Speaker 11: of a pandemic. 244 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:37,036 Speaker 2: I called up Andrew Catchpull, the British virologist who led 245 00:15:37,076 --> 00:15:38,396 Speaker 2: the COVID infection study. 246 00:15:38,716 --> 00:15:41,196 Speaker 11: They came to us with phrases like they just wanted 247 00:15:41,236 --> 00:15:43,436 Speaker 11: to do their bit for the pandemic. They felt that 248 00:15:43,476 --> 00:15:47,196 Speaker 11: this was something that they could do to help. So 249 00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:49,276 Speaker 11: it was really heart warming actually to see that. 250 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:52,636 Speaker 2: Now, you would think that if you were a virologist 251 00:15:52,796 --> 00:15:55,676 Speaker 2: on the biggest virology podcast in the world trying to 252 00:15:55,716 --> 00:15:59,316 Speaker 2: figure out the ethics of a particular study, then this 253 00:15:59,476 --> 00:16:03,236 Speaker 2: kind of information would matter. That if you're worrying about consent, 254 00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:07,916 Speaker 2: then that kind of overwhelming enthusiasm should maybe make you 255 00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:11,796 Speaker 2: a little less worried. So, like any loyal Twive listener, 256 00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:14,436 Speaker 2: I waited for the rest of the crew to start 257 00:16:14,476 --> 00:16:18,236 Speaker 2: talking about the implications of the twenty seven thousand volunteers. 258 00:16:18,996 --> 00:16:22,596 Speaker 2: I waited and waited for the Twivers to make sense 259 00:16:22,636 --> 00:16:28,356 Speaker 2: of this and crickets. The conversation just moved on. 260 00:16:29,396 --> 00:16:29,796 Speaker 1: All right. 261 00:16:30,396 --> 00:16:34,996 Speaker 3: So after the screening, they're admitted to individual negative pressure 262 00:16:35,036 --> 00:16:39,516 Speaker 3: rooms in a quarantine unit twenty four hour monitoring their 263 00:16:39,556 --> 00:16:42,396 Speaker 3: screen for other respiratory infections using what's bulderbio. 264 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:45,356 Speaker 2: Vincent Racanello might as well admit a big w with 265 00:16:45,396 --> 00:16:50,956 Speaker 2: his fingers. Whatever, the fact that twenty seven thousand people 266 00:16:51,276 --> 00:16:54,636 Speaker 2: signed up to get infected with COVID has apparently made 267 00:16:55,116 --> 00:17:00,116 Speaker 2: no impression at all on these virologists. Human challenge trials 268 00:17:00,356 --> 00:17:10,756 Speaker 2: are a problem to scientists. Let me read to you 269 00:17:10,796 --> 00:17:13,796 Speaker 2: from a paper that appeared early in the pandemic in 270 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:17,796 Speaker 2: p and As Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, 271 00:17:18,076 --> 00:17:21,756 Speaker 2: which is about as prestigious as scientific journals get. The 272 00:17:21,796 --> 00:17:25,796 Speaker 2: paper was written by a group of America's leading medical ethicists. 273 00:17:26,276 --> 00:17:29,396 Speaker 2: They're talking about the same general question that was discussed 274 00:17:29,436 --> 00:17:34,036 Speaker 2: on the TWIB episode. Should people be allowed to volunteer 275 00:17:34,156 --> 00:17:37,716 Speaker 2: to be deliberately infected with COVID. In this case, they're 276 00:17:37,716 --> 00:17:42,676 Speaker 2: talking about deliberate infection for testing potential COVID vaccines. They 277 00:17:42,716 --> 00:17:45,436 Speaker 2: give you the experimental vaccine, then they expose you to 278 00:17:45,476 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 2: COVID to see if it works, and the risk, of 279 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:51,476 Speaker 2: course is that if it doesn't work, you'll get sick. Now, 280 00:17:51,556 --> 00:17:54,116 Speaker 2: if you volunteer to be a COVID guinea pig in 281 00:17:54,156 --> 00:17:57,596 Speaker 2: an experiment like that, I'm assuming you understand what you're 282 00:17:57,596 --> 00:18:01,716 Speaker 2: getting into. But the famous ethicists, in their paper in 283 00:18:01,796 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 2: the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences begged to differ. 284 00:18:06,276 --> 00:18:11,196 Speaker 2: Here's what they wrote. Despite acknowledge in consent forms that 285 00:18:11,236 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 2: participants may not experience direct benefits from the experimental intervention, 286 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:20,516 Speaker 2: it is entirely possible that volunteers may labor under a 287 00:18:20,596 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 2: quote preventive misconception that they will receive some protection from 288 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:30,596 Speaker 2: infection by their participation. That's a lot of gobbletgook. So 289 00:18:30,716 --> 00:18:33,916 Speaker 2: let me translate for you. You can tell the guinea 290 00:18:33,916 --> 00:18:37,996 Speaker 2: pig that this vaccine is experimental, that it hasn't been tested, 291 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:40,916 Speaker 2: that we don't know yet whether it works, but there 292 00:18:40,956 --> 00:18:44,036 Speaker 2: is at least a theoretical possibility that one of those 293 00:18:44,076 --> 00:18:47,636 Speaker 2: guinea pigs are going to misunderstand what's going on, And 294 00:18:47,716 --> 00:18:51,476 Speaker 2: the possibility of that misapprehension means that you should never 295 00:18:52,156 --> 00:18:58,156 Speaker 2: ever try an experiment like that. I'll be honest. When 296 00:18:58,196 --> 00:19:01,836 Speaker 2: I read that paper, I got a little puzzled. I mean, 297 00:19:02,036 --> 00:19:05,756 Speaker 2: what would it take to make these bioethesists happy? What 298 00:19:05,916 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 2: if we screened and vetted and sifted and sorted through 299 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:12,436 Speaker 2: every one of the people who volunteered, picking out only 300 00:19:12,476 --> 00:19:15,916 Speaker 2: the select few who we thought really and truly understood 301 00:19:15,996 --> 00:19:19,236 Speaker 2: what was going on? Would that make them happy? What 302 00:19:19,276 --> 00:19:22,116 Speaker 2: if we only pick people with graduate degrees, or ones 303 00:19:22,116 --> 00:19:24,396 Speaker 2: with IQs over one hundred and fifty, or ones willing 304 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:27,476 Speaker 2: to run a ten thousand word essay describing exactly what 305 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:30,596 Speaker 2: they think they're getting into. Would that make them happy? 306 00:19:30,956 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 2: Or would they still be like? I don't know. I 307 00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:36,476 Speaker 2: think it's entirely possible that volunteers may labor under a 308 00:19:36,476 --> 00:19:40,836 Speaker 2: preventative misconception. So even as this pandemic rages all around us, 309 00:19:41,356 --> 00:19:44,596 Speaker 2: let's not do anything at all. Now, how are they 310 00:19:44,636 --> 00:19:47,356 Speaker 2: so sure of this? Did they debrief anyone who've been 311 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:51,156 Speaker 2: part of a vacting challenge trial. No, they didn't. I 312 00:19:51,196 --> 00:19:53,436 Speaker 2: want to talk a little bit more about the men 313 00:19:53,516 --> 00:19:56,756 Speaker 2: who volunteer and their motivations and how we judge them 314 00:19:56,836 --> 00:20:00,316 Speaker 2: in retrospect. I brought this issue up with the bioethicist 315 00:20:00,396 --> 00:20:04,316 Speaker 2: Zohar Letterman when we were discussing the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, 316 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:07,516 Speaker 2: and I'm wondering, when it comes to assessing the risks 317 00:20:07,516 --> 00:20:11,516 Speaker 2: and benefits of a study like this, shouldn't what the 318 00:20:11,556 --> 00:20:16,116 Speaker 2: subjects think matter? You're not interested in subjects. 319 00:20:15,676 --> 00:20:15,916 Speaker 1: I think. 320 00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:21,836 Speaker 4: I think in research ethics, as BIOasis, as policy makers, 321 00:20:23,516 --> 00:20:27,676 Speaker 4: we can only listen to what people want up to 322 00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:34,916 Speaker 4: a certain point when it comes to unnecessary harms. When 323 00:20:34,916 --> 00:20:40,316 Speaker 4: it comes to the ethics per se of a certain 324 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:45,676 Speaker 4: policy or certain study, there comes a point when you 325 00:20:45,876 --> 00:20:48,476 Speaker 4: no longer need to listen to the voices, but you 326 00:20:48,756 --> 00:20:51,036 Speaker 4: just have to go on the ethics of it. 327 00:20:52,316 --> 00:21:16,556 Speaker 2: Actually, no, I think we should listen to the voces. 328 00:21:17,996 --> 00:21:22,436 Speaker 2: Eighteen of the surviving members of the starvation experiment left 329 00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:27,716 Speaker 2: oral histories behind about their experience. On first listen, what's 330 00:21:27,716 --> 00:21:31,036 Speaker 2: striking about them is what the men went through their pain. 331 00:21:31,556 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 2: But if you listen more closely, you hear something else. 332 00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:38,316 Speaker 12: Why were you a craciential subjector. 333 00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:43,516 Speaker 13: Well, because in when I was in high school, I 334 00:21:43,676 --> 00:21:47,676 Speaker 13: became acquainted with a fellow by the name of Jesus 335 00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:51,796 Speaker 13: of Nazareth, and I thought he was a pretty good guy, 336 00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:58,956 Speaker 13: and I liked what he said, and I liked the 337 00:21:58,956 --> 00:22:03,156 Speaker 13: way he lived and the way he handled situations with 338 00:22:03,236 --> 00:22:04,156 Speaker 13: other human beings. 339 00:22:05,956 --> 00:22:12,556 Speaker 9: I couldn't imagine Jesus. I couldn't visualize him in the 340 00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:16,716 Speaker 9: uniform of a US army or any kind of an army. 341 00:22:17,516 --> 00:22:23,036 Speaker 9: It just didn't fit. And so I basically said, well, 342 00:22:23,036 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 9: if he couldn't do what, I can't do it. 343 00:22:25,356 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 2: The interviewer asked everyone the same question, why wouldn't you fight? 344 00:22:30,356 --> 00:22:32,916 Speaker 2: And each man gives a version of the same answer. 345 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:35,196 Speaker 12: Why were you a conscientious objector? 346 00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:37,836 Speaker 14: I'm not going to kill anybody, and I don't want 347 00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:38,676 Speaker 14: anyone to kill me. 348 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:41,316 Speaker 12: God put us on his earth. 349 00:22:42,716 --> 00:22:44,596 Speaker 14: And as the only one that has a right to 350 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:45,276 Speaker 14: take us away. 351 00:22:45,956 --> 00:22:48,436 Speaker 2: These were not people who dodged the draft out of 352 00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:53,676 Speaker 2: cowardice or indifference. These were deeply moral people from religious 353 00:22:53,716 --> 00:22:56,676 Speaker 2: traditions like the Quakers or the Mennonites or the Brethren, 354 00:22:56,916 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 2: that had principled theological objections to war that go back 355 00:23:00,876 --> 00:23:01,796 Speaker 2: hundreds of years. 356 00:23:02,316 --> 00:23:05,516 Speaker 5: So you know, on the most basic level, why were 357 00:23:05,516 --> 00:23:06,716 Speaker 5: you a conscientious objector? 358 00:23:07,476 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 14: Well, I don't believe in killing people under any circumstances. 359 00:23:11,676 --> 00:23:14,636 Speaker 2: Conscientious objectors had many ways to serve during the war, 360 00:23:15,076 --> 00:23:17,916 Speaker 2: but it becomes clear listening to their accounts that the 361 00:23:17,956 --> 00:23:20,636 Speaker 2: issue for them was not what is the easiest or 362 00:23:20,676 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 2: most convenient way to fulfill my wartime obligation. It was 363 00:23:24,996 --> 00:23:27,276 Speaker 2: what is the most useful way for me to help 364 00:23:27,316 --> 00:23:30,836 Speaker 2: alleviate human suffering. That's why some of them volunteer to 365 00:23:30,876 --> 00:23:34,516 Speaker 2: work as research subjects in ansel Keys's lab. They want 366 00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 2: to do more than dig ditches or work as hospital orderlies. 367 00:23:38,796 --> 00:23:42,716 Speaker 2: So did they suffer during the starvation experiment? Of course 368 00:23:42,756 --> 00:23:46,716 Speaker 2: they did, but that doesn't make the experiment immoral. Listen 369 00:23:46,756 --> 00:23:48,996 Speaker 2: to Sam leg again, the man who chopped off his 370 00:23:49,036 --> 00:23:53,156 Speaker 2: own fingers in the delirium of malnourishment. Many decades later, 371 00:23:53,556 --> 00:23:54,756 Speaker 2: this is what he has to say. 372 00:23:55,476 --> 00:23:57,876 Speaker 9: Everybody else around us is pulling down the world. We 373 00:23:57,916 --> 00:24:00,156 Speaker 9: want to build it up. We want to be of service. 374 00:24:00,476 --> 00:24:03,316 Speaker 9: Here was an obvious opportunity for us to be of service. 375 00:24:03,756 --> 00:24:06,876 Speaker 2: You cannot form a legitimate opinion on the ethics of 376 00:24:06,916 --> 00:24:10,956 Speaker 2: what happened in Minnesota. Unless you willing to listen to Sandleg. 377 00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:15,516 Speaker 9: Now immediately you'll say, oh, come on, you are a 378 00:24:15,596 --> 00:24:19,636 Speaker 9: Jesus freak, which I will agree to. And so you 379 00:24:19,676 --> 00:24:22,676 Speaker 9: were going to emulate Jesus. How well have you done it? 380 00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:24,956 Speaker 9: And I say, that's none of your business on this 381 00:24:25,036 --> 00:24:28,556 Speaker 9: one issue of this aspect of Jesus, I've done it. 382 00:24:29,556 --> 00:24:32,836 Speaker 9: Never mind the rest, but that stock that was important 383 00:24:32,836 --> 00:24:33,036 Speaker 9: to me. 384 00:24:36,036 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 2: When ensel Keys retired, he was interviewed by a colleague 385 00:24:38,956 --> 00:24:41,716 Speaker 2: of his at the University of Minnesota. At one point 386 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:43,916 Speaker 2: they talk about the starvation experiment. 387 00:24:44,396 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 14: There's evidence coming all around. At the end of the war, 388 00:24:47,716 --> 00:24:50,636 Speaker 14: would see a lot of problems and people have been 389 00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:55,516 Speaker 14: semi starved, especially in northern countries. So I went to 390 00:24:55,556 --> 00:25:01,156 Speaker 14: the certain general's office and mentioned this, said we ought 391 00:25:01,156 --> 00:25:05,196 Speaker 14: to get some evidence on it and what happens when 392 00:25:05,196 --> 00:25:10,316 Speaker 14: people are starved. And then so the network others of him, 393 00:25:10,356 --> 00:25:14,436 Speaker 14: being an experimentalist, proposed to carry out an experiment, and 394 00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 14: we've got the authorization to have conscientious objectors. 395 00:25:20,956 --> 00:25:23,396 Speaker 2: The net result is that I propose that we carry 396 00:25:23,396 --> 00:25:26,996 Speaker 2: out an experiment, and we got the authorization to have 397 00:25:27,076 --> 00:25:32,036 Speaker 2: conscientious objectors. Ansel Keys, the Great Genius, wanted the world 398 00:25:32,076 --> 00:25:37,116 Speaker 2: to know that the starvation experiment was his idea, But 399 00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:40,236 Speaker 2: like so many other things about that study, the truth 400 00:25:40,636 --> 00:25:44,756 Speaker 2: is more complicated. It goes back to Ansel Keys's earlier 401 00:25:44,836 --> 00:25:48,996 Speaker 2: experiments with wartime volunteers, the experiments on vitamins. 402 00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:55,036 Speaker 7: The conscientious objectors who are working in Keys's lab realize 403 00:25:55,276 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 7: that this is a military experiment, that in fact, what 404 00:25:59,356 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 7: he's doing is testing different rations that will have military applications, 405 00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 7: and they object to that because it has a military application. 406 00:26:08,756 --> 00:26:12,756 Speaker 2: Sarah Tracy, the historian writing a biography of Keys. When 407 00:26:12,756 --> 00:26:16,396 Speaker 2: she was researching her book, she stumbled across correspondence among 408 00:26:16,516 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 2: Keyes's volunteers in the early years of the war. The 409 00:26:19,636 --> 00:26:22,636 Speaker 2: men were concerned that Keys's work was being funded by 410 00:26:22,636 --> 00:26:25,796 Speaker 2: the War Department, which made them, in their own eyes, 411 00:26:26,156 --> 00:26:27,916 Speaker 2: complicit in the war effort. 412 00:26:28,236 --> 00:26:33,796 Speaker 7: Another idea comes to them, why don't we design our 413 00:26:33,836 --> 00:26:39,156 Speaker 7: own experiment. We can design an experiment that we want 414 00:26:39,196 --> 00:26:45,516 Speaker 7: to do that will be of peacetime value, and then 415 00:26:46,036 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 7: we'll get our home churches to pay for it. 416 00:26:49,396 --> 00:26:50,596 Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't realize that. 417 00:26:50,796 --> 00:26:53,356 Speaker 7: Nobody's realized that nobody's realized that. 418 00:26:57,276 --> 00:27:01,236 Speaker 2: Sarah Tracy discovered that we've gotten the origin story of 419 00:27:01,276 --> 00:27:06,236 Speaker 2: the starvation experiment backwards. Here's what actually happened. A group 420 00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:10,556 Speaker 2: of volunteers approached the National Service Board religious objectors. They 421 00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:13,996 Speaker 2: make a proposal. They point out that even if peace 422 00:27:14,076 --> 00:27:16,516 Speaker 2: breaks out, the war is still going to leave millions 423 00:27:16,516 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 2: of people starving and malnourished. What if we conducted an 424 00:27:20,036 --> 00:27:23,556 Speaker 2: experiment to figure out how to help them. The Service 425 00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:27,676 Speaker 2: Board likes the idea and funds it, and the volunteers 426 00:27:27,956 --> 00:27:31,476 Speaker 2: take that idea and the grant money to answer keys. 427 00:27:32,596 --> 00:27:34,796 Speaker 7: They wanted to give relief, and if they couldn't go 428 00:27:34,836 --> 00:27:37,276 Speaker 7: abroad to give relief, then they could use science to 429 00:27:37,316 --> 00:27:39,356 Speaker 7: determine how that relief should be given. 430 00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:44,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so beautiful. And now so they come up 431 00:27:44,876 --> 00:27:48,676 Speaker 2: with this idea. How do they phrase the idea that 432 00:27:48,716 --> 00:27:52,476 Speaker 2: we will we will starve our sounds and then see 433 00:27:52,476 --> 00:27:54,916 Speaker 2: what the best study, the best means of bringing ourselves 434 00:27:54,956 --> 00:27:55,396 Speaker 2: back to help. 435 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,796 Speaker 7: Yes, yes, so the people who write the recruitment brochure 436 00:27:58,876 --> 00:28:02,716 Speaker 7: are the conscientious objectors themselves, the vitamin conscientious objectors. Right, 437 00:28:02,756 --> 00:28:08,076 Speaker 7: those religious pacifists are doing the lion's share of legwork. 438 00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:10,756 Speaker 7: When it comes to writing the recruitment brochure? 439 00:28:10,876 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 2: How did you find that out? 440 00:28:12,116 --> 00:28:15,956 Speaker 7: I found it by going to the Swarthmore College Peace 441 00:28:16,036 --> 00:28:19,876 Speaker 7: Collection and combing through all their records. 442 00:28:20,476 --> 00:28:23,396 Speaker 2: The brochure said, will you starve that they may be 443 00:28:23,396 --> 00:28:26,876 Speaker 2: better fed? With a picture of children overturning their bowls 444 00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:29,316 Speaker 2: in hopes of finding one last grain of rice. 445 00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:32,956 Speaker 7: I mean, they arrived in Key's lab and within a 446 00:28:33,076 --> 00:28:37,516 Speaker 7: month or so they're publishing their own newsletter right called 447 00:28:38,356 --> 00:28:41,996 Speaker 7: It's Oh, the Guinea Pig Gazette. They published The Guinea 448 00:28:41,996 --> 00:28:42,876 Speaker 7: Pig Gazette. 449 00:28:43,036 --> 00:28:47,196 Speaker 2: Okay Keyes published his mammoth report on the Starvation experiment 450 00:28:47,236 --> 00:28:50,796 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty years after the war was over, but 451 00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:54,716 Speaker 2: the volunteers published their findings almost immediately so it could 452 00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:56,916 Speaker 2: be of use in the chaos after the war ended. 453 00:28:57,396 --> 00:29:01,076 Speaker 2: A little book called Men in Hunger, a psychological Manual 454 00:29:01,116 --> 00:29:05,116 Speaker 2: for relief workers. The cover shows a kindly middle aged 455 00:29:05,116 --> 00:29:07,996 Speaker 2: man shaking the hand of a gaunt European against a 456 00:29:08,076 --> 00:29:12,956 Speaker 2: blighted landscape. The Minnesota experiment was not something Ansel Keys 457 00:29:13,036 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 2: did to the volunteers. It was something to volunteers chose 458 00:29:17,676 --> 00:29:22,316 Speaker 2: to do to themselves. Not everyone who suffers as a victim. 459 00:29:22,676 --> 00:29:25,036 Speaker 2: If we are at the point where we don't understand 460 00:29:25,076 --> 00:29:28,956 Speaker 2: that fact, where we have a moral vocabulary for victimhood 461 00:29:29,356 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 2: and none for self sacrifice, then God help us. 462 00:29:33,636 --> 00:29:36,956 Speaker 9: If you could turn the clock back and be back 463 00:29:36,956 --> 00:29:40,356 Speaker 9: in nineteen in nineteen forties, would you participate in the 464 00:29:40,356 --> 00:29:40,996 Speaker 9: study again? 465 00:29:41,356 --> 00:29:43,116 Speaker 12: Yeah, without hesitation. 466 00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:46,316 Speaker 3: There was a very sign never got event in my life, 467 00:29:47,516 --> 00:29:47,996 Speaker 3: very much. 468 00:29:47,996 --> 00:29:50,756 Speaker 15: So if you, if you had to make the decision 469 00:29:50,796 --> 00:29:54,276 Speaker 15: to participate again or not, what would you do again? 470 00:29:54,316 --> 00:29:57,676 Speaker 9: I enthusiastically say yes I would, and I think humanity 471 00:29:57,716 --> 00:29:59,396 Speaker 9: has been improved, and I'm glad I did it. 472 00:30:00,716 --> 00:30:02,436 Speaker 15: We knew, we knew it wasn't going to be easy. 473 00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:03,876 Speaker 15: We didn't know how hard it was going to be, 474 00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:08,276 Speaker 15: but we we knew it was not going to be easy, 475 00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:14,356 Speaker 15: and we were prepared to suffer, and we suffered. And 476 00:30:14,396 --> 00:30:18,916 Speaker 15: as far as someone taking advantage of us or mistreating us, 477 00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:23,756 Speaker 15: absolutely no feelings like that at all, no resentment of 478 00:30:23,796 --> 00:30:24,316 Speaker 15: any kind. 479 00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:25,436 Speaker 1: Nothing. 480 00:30:26,196 --> 00:30:28,116 Speaker 4: And I get that you could turn the clock back, 481 00:30:28,156 --> 00:30:29,716 Speaker 4: would you participate again? 482 00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:30,516 Speaker 1: Sure? 483 00:30:31,876 --> 00:30:32,356 Speaker 5: You bet you. 484 00:30:33,596 --> 00:30:35,876 Speaker 9: If you could turn the clock back, would you participate 485 00:30:35,956 --> 00:30:36,796 Speaker 9: in the study again? 486 00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:41,796 Speaker 2: Yes, I'm very happy that I did. It's one of 487 00:30:41,796 --> 00:30:42,996 Speaker 2: the things that I'm proud of. 488 00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:46,116 Speaker 15: Would you do you think you would make the same 489 00:30:46,116 --> 00:30:47,276 Speaker 15: decision to participate? 490 00:30:48,836 --> 00:30:50,796 Speaker 8: Yes, I would. 491 00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:53,116 Speaker 12: No regrets. 492 00:31:00,396 --> 00:31:03,316 Speaker 2: Next time. On revisions History, the story of one more 493 00:31:03,396 --> 00:31:06,556 Speaker 2: person who starved for a year so others might be fed. 494 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:09,756 Speaker 12: He had a good life, He would say, he had 495 00:31:09,796 --> 00:31:11,436 Speaker 12: a good life. 496 00:31:11,396 --> 00:31:14,116 Speaker 2: And what happened to him and his family after that 497 00:31:14,236 --> 00:31:14,796 Speaker 2: year ended. 498 00:31:15,236 --> 00:31:18,756 Speaker 12: But he paid a price for what he believed, and 499 00:31:18,796 --> 00:31:24,796 Speaker 12: he kept paying that price his whole life. 500 00:31:30,556 --> 00:31:34,036 Speaker 2: Revisionist History is produced by Elwise, Linton Leeman Gestu, and 501 00:31:34,116 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 2: Jacob Smith, with Tolly Emlin and Harrison VJ. Choi. Our 502 00:31:38,676 --> 00:31:42,516 Speaker 2: editor is Julia Parton. Our executive producer is Miel Label. 503 00:31:43,036 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 2: Original scoring by Luis Kara, mastering by Flon Williams, and 504 00:31:46,996 --> 00:31:50,836 Speaker 2: engineering by Nina Lawrence. Beth Johnson is our fact checker. 505 00:31:51,196 --> 00:31:55,076 Speaker 2: Special thanks also to Ariela Markowitz for production help on 506 00:31:55,116 --> 00:32:18,356 Speaker 2: this episode. I'm Malcolm Glawell. 507 00:32:27,436 --> 00:32:31,916 Speaker 4: Much about connection. I mean kaenno trigatur. 508 00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,676 Speaker 2: If you target towns and cities, it's as clear as 509 00:32:36,796 --> 00:32:42,436 Speaker 2: day that there will be civilian victims. In nineteen forty five, 510 00:32:42,916 --> 00:32:46,076 Speaker 2: the US firebomb Tokyo, destroying a quarter of the city 511 00:32:46,396 --> 00:32:50,156 Speaker 2: and killing more than one hundred thousand people. I wrote 512 00:32:50,156 --> 00:32:54,636 Speaker 2: about this infamous bombing campaign in my audiobook The Bomber Mafia, 513 00:32:54,796 --> 00:32:57,276 Speaker 2: and one of the survivor's voices we Hear is from 514 00:32:57,316 --> 00:33:02,156 Speaker 2: a project called Paper City. Paper City is now out 515 00:33:02,436 --> 00:33:08,116 Speaker 2: as a groundbreaking feature documentary director Adrian Francis explores what 516 00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:12,236 Speaker 2: we choose to remember and hope to forget. To find 517 00:33:12,236 --> 00:33:17,516 Speaker 2: out more, visit papercityfilm dot com and follow at Paper 518 00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 2: City Tokyo on social media. Hey Revision's history listeners, I'm 519 00:33:26,996 --> 00:33:29,836 Speaker 2: capping off this episode with a preview of a new 520 00:33:29,876 --> 00:33:33,156 Speaker 2: Pushkin show that really has me hooked. It's called Death 521 00:33:33,156 --> 00:33:35,636 Speaker 2: of an Artist. Death of an Artist has all the 522 00:33:35,676 --> 00:33:40,436 Speaker 2: elements of a gripping story, a suspicious death, a tumultuous relationship, 523 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:44,036 Speaker 2: a murder trial, questions of morality, feminism, power and balance, 524 00:33:44,356 --> 00:33:47,996 Speaker 2: and a divided our world. On September eighth, nineteen eighty five, 525 00:33:48,156 --> 00:33:51,756 Speaker 2: up and coming artist Anna Mendietta fell from the thirty 526 00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:55,556 Speaker 2: fourth floor window of her husband and famous sculptor Karl 527 00:33:55,636 --> 00:34:01,156 Speaker 2: Andre's apartment. Host Helen Molesworth asks was Karl Andre involved? 528 00:34:01,676 --> 00:34:05,076 Speaker 2: You'll revisit on his untimely death. The trial that followed 529 00:34:05,276 --> 00:34:08,516 Speaker 2: and both the protests and silence that have followed this 530 00:34:08,596 --> 00:34:12,276 Speaker 2: story ever since. Okay, here comes a sneak peek. You 531 00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:14,876 Speaker 2: can follow the story by searching for Death of an 532 00:34:14,956 --> 00:34:17,596 Speaker 2: Artist wherever you get your podcasts. 533 00:34:18,716 --> 00:34:24,196 Speaker 6: It's May nineteen seventy three, Iowa City. There's a damp 534 00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:26,996 Speaker 6: chill in the air. We are on a sort of 535 00:34:27,116 --> 00:34:30,276 Speaker 6: shabby block in front of a brick apartment building with 536 00:34:30,316 --> 00:34:32,716 Speaker 6: a white door in need of a paint job, and 537 00:34:32,756 --> 00:34:38,596 Speaker 6: a storefront window with its blind strawn shut. The sidewalk 538 00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:41,636 Speaker 6: just in front of the door is covered in blood, 539 00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:45,836 Speaker 6: and it looks like the blood might be seeping out 540 00:34:45,916 --> 00:34:50,716 Speaker 6: from under the door jam. It's a busy weekday, and 541 00:34:50,756 --> 00:34:53,796 Speaker 6: as pedestrians pass the puddle of blood, they notice it 542 00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:57,796 Speaker 6: and casually step around it. Eventually, a man in a 543 00:34:57,836 --> 00:35:01,996 Speaker 6: green and black plaid jacket pauses and looks around as 544 00:35:02,036 --> 00:35:06,996 Speaker 6: if looking for an explanation. When none comes, he walks away. 545 00:35:07,836 --> 00:35:10,796 Speaker 6: Then a well dressed white woman uses her umbrella to 546 00:35:10,836 --> 00:35:13,716 Speaker 6: poke at the bloody puddle, but after a moment or 547 00:35:13,756 --> 00:35:19,276 Speaker 6: two of inspection, she also walks away. Finally, an older 548 00:35:19,356 --> 00:35:23,556 Speaker 6: gentleman emerges from a nearby storefront and silently cleans up 549 00:35:23,556 --> 00:35:27,876 Speaker 6: the mess, and the evidence of whatever happened is suddenly gone, 550 00:35:28,596 --> 00:35:31,916 Speaker 6: and with it disappears any account of whose blood was 551 00:35:31,956 --> 00:35:39,636 Speaker 6: spilled and how. The whole scene is being captured by 552 00:35:39,716 --> 00:35:43,596 Speaker 6: two young women in their twenties, sisters, who sit in 553 00:35:43,596 --> 00:35:47,276 Speaker 6: an old car park nearby. One of them holds a 554 00:35:47,316 --> 00:35:50,196 Speaker 6: super eight camera, the kind you'd make home movies with 555 00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:54,236 Speaker 6: back then the other snaps photos with a thirty five 556 00:35:54,316 --> 00:36:00,596 Speaker 6: millimeter camera. They are Anna and Raklein Mendietta, Cuban refugees 557 00:36:00,756 --> 00:36:08,836 Speaker 6: who landed in this unlikely place as children in nineteen 558 00:36:08,836 --> 00:36:11,996 Speaker 6: seven three. Anna was a first year MFA student at 559 00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:16,916 Speaker 6: the University of Iowa. She was funny, loud, outrageous and 560 00:36:16,996 --> 00:36:20,316 Speaker 6: had to take no prisoner's vibe, and in the way 561 00:36:20,316 --> 00:36:23,276 Speaker 6: of sisters, she had roped direct clean into helping her 562 00:36:23,316 --> 00:36:26,516 Speaker 6: make a new piece, and like many works on a maid, 563 00:36:27,036 --> 00:36:29,996 Speaker 6: it would come to seem tragically prophetic in the wake 564 00:36:30,036 --> 00:36:30,596 Speaker 6: of her death. 565 00:36:32,516 --> 00:36:39,276 Speaker 10: She basically staged what looked like the remnants of, you know, 566 00:36:39,316 --> 00:36:42,476 Speaker 10: physical violence with what looked like blood in the doorway 567 00:36:42,516 --> 00:36:45,476 Speaker 10: of a building, and I thought it was extremely powerful 568 00:36:46,116 --> 00:36:49,196 Speaker 10: for a very young artist to be doing that, and 569 00:36:49,236 --> 00:36:52,636 Speaker 10: to be doing it in this small, largely white town 570 00:36:52,676 --> 00:36:55,116 Speaker 10: of Iowa City was fascinating to me. 571 00:36:56,156 --> 00:36:59,036 Speaker 6: That's Connie Butler, one of the many curators who would 572 00:36:59,036 --> 00:37:01,836 Speaker 6: come to admire and study on A Mendieta's work in 573 00:37:01,876 --> 00:37:05,756 Speaker 6: the decades that followed. The photos in film the Mendieta 574 00:37:05,836 --> 00:37:08,836 Speaker 6: sisters took that day would ultimately become a work of 575 00:37:08,956 --> 00:37:11,516 Speaker 6: art called Moffat Building Piece. 576 00:37:12,436 --> 00:37:14,596 Speaker 10: The fact that it still exists only in these little 577 00:37:14,636 --> 00:37:17,596 Speaker 10: thirty five millimeters slides, which you know you have to 578 00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:21,156 Speaker 10: get very close to with a loop, and it's a 579 00:37:21,236 --> 00:37:25,236 Speaker 10: very intimate way of viewing these things, you know, that 580 00:37:25,316 --> 00:37:27,476 Speaker 10: implicates you as a view were too, almost as if 581 00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:29,316 Speaker 10: you are yourself looking at a crime scene. 582 00:37:30,516 --> 00:37:33,636 Speaker 6: Anna's interest in blood wasn't only meant to shock. She 583 00:37:33,796 --> 00:37:37,756 Speaker 6: was keenly aware of violence and injustice. When she made 584 00:37:37,756 --> 00:37:41,476 Speaker 6: the Maffat Building Piece, she was investigating her own community's 585 00:37:41,556 --> 00:37:45,196 Speaker 6: reaction to a brutal crime, a rape and murder that 586 00:37:45,276 --> 00:37:48,716 Speaker 6: had happened on campus a few months before. Here's how 587 00:37:48,756 --> 00:37:50,356 Speaker 6: she explained her inspiration. 588 00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:54,716 Speaker 5: A young woman was killed, raped and killed at Iowa 589 00:37:55,116 --> 00:37:57,836 Speaker 5: in one of the dorms, and it just really freaked 590 00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:01,076 Speaker 5: me out. So I did some of rape performances type 591 00:38:01,116 --> 00:38:05,036 Speaker 5: things at that time, using my own body, I did 592 00:38:05,116 --> 00:38:08,636 Speaker 5: something I believe in and that I felt I had 593 00:38:08,676 --> 00:38:08,916 Speaker 5: to do. 594 00:38:09,716 --> 00:38:13,036 Speaker 6: That's not actually an A Mendieta's voice you're hearing. That 595 00:38:13,276 --> 00:38:16,876 Speaker 6: was Tanya Brighera, another artist from Cuba who you'll hear 596 00:38:16,916 --> 00:38:26,236 Speaker 6: from more later. Anamandieza's question was could you make art 597 00:38:26,396 --> 00:38:30,636 Speaker 6: about something so awful? And she used blood, not paint. 598 00:38:31,196 --> 00:38:34,516 Speaker 6: Blood is the most essential substance of life. Could it 599 00:38:34,636 --> 00:38:38,356 Speaker 6: jolt people out of their daily routines? Could blood make 600 00:38:38,396 --> 00:38:42,636 Speaker 6: people pay attention? She didn't know it yet, but the 601 00:38:42,676 --> 00:38:45,916 Speaker 6: Moffat Building piece was about to be her first major artwork, 602 00:38:46,636 --> 00:38:50,356 Speaker 6: and in a circular way, that's kind of terrifying. The 603 00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:54,676 Speaker 6: question she asked about how we react when we encounter 604 00:38:54,796 --> 00:38:58,836 Speaker 6: the residue of violence. This question would haunt all of 605 00:38:58,916 --> 00:39:05,996 Speaker 6: us after she died. I'm your host Helen Mulesworth and 606 00:39:06,036 --> 00:39:10,876 Speaker 6: from Pushkin Industries, Something Else and Sony Music Entertainment. This 607 00:39:11,116 --> 00:39:28,356 Speaker 6: is Death of an Artist Episode one. The haunting For 608 00:39:28,476 --> 00:39:31,436 Speaker 6: my entire professional life, I've been a member of something 609 00:39:31,476 --> 00:39:37,996 Speaker 6: called the art World, an exclusive network of artists, gallery dealers, curators, collectors, 610 00:39:38,156 --> 00:39:42,076 Speaker 6: and philanthropists for two decades. I was lucky enough to 611 00:39:42,116 --> 00:39:45,076 Speaker 6: be a museum curator, making me one of a small 612 00:39:45,116 --> 00:39:48,836 Speaker 6: group of cultural insiders who determine what art we see 613 00:39:49,196 --> 00:39:52,716 Speaker 6: and how we talk about it. In the museum world 614 00:39:52,876 --> 00:39:55,516 Speaker 6: and in art history, there are a lot of unspoken 615 00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:58,596 Speaker 6: rules about what you can say publicly and what is 616 00:39:58,636 --> 00:40:02,756 Speaker 6: supposed to stay private. It turns out I wasn't that 617 00:40:02,836 --> 00:40:06,076 Speaker 6: good at sticking to the script, and I guess I'm 618 00:40:06,116 --> 00:40:08,556 Speaker 6: still not good at it, because I'm going to tell 619 00:40:08,596 --> 00:40:11,876 Speaker 6: you on A and Dietta's whole story all the way 620 00:40:12,196 --> 00:40:19,236 Speaker 6: to its shocking and troubling end, and much to my surprise, 621 00:40:19,676 --> 00:40:22,556 Speaker 6: I discovered it's a story many of my colleagues in 622 00:40:22,596 --> 00:40:30,076 Speaker 6: the art world would prefer I didn't tell at first, blush. 623 00:40:30,836 --> 00:40:32,956 Speaker 6: It seemed like people didn't want me to talk about 624 00:40:32,996 --> 00:40:35,516 Speaker 6: it because of who else is part of that story. 625 00:40:35,996 --> 00:40:40,876 Speaker 6: Anna's husband, the famous sculptor Carl andre He is one 626 00:40:40,916 --> 00:40:44,356 Speaker 6: of the so called fathers of minimalism, a cultural hero 627 00:40:44,516 --> 00:40:49,276 Speaker 6: to many are revered artists with lots of connections, and 628 00:40:49,316 --> 00:40:56,076 Speaker 6: he was a suspect in Anna's death. Even though Carl 629 00:40:56,116 --> 00:40:59,796 Speaker 6: Andrea and Anna Mendieta were a highly visible art world couple, 630 00:41:00,836 --> 00:41:04,076 Speaker 6: even though something terrible happened between them the night she died, 631 00:41:04,636 --> 00:41:06,836 Speaker 6: you will not read about it on a museum wall 632 00:41:06,916 --> 00:41:10,636 Speaker 6: label or in most art history text book reviews of 633 00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:13,156 Speaker 6: their exhibitions tend to take care of it in a 634 00:41:13,196 --> 00:41:17,236 Speaker 6: sentence or two. You would not know that Mendieta's death 635 00:41:17,396 --> 00:41:20,756 Speaker 6: divided the art world in nineteen eighty five, and in 636 00:41:20,796 --> 00:41:29,236 Speaker 6: many ways still does. I'm not the first person to 637 00:41:29,276 --> 00:41:32,396 Speaker 6: try and tell this story. In fact, many of the 638 00:41:32,476 --> 00:41:35,836 Speaker 6: voices you'll hear in this show are from interviews conducted 639 00:41:36,156 --> 00:41:40,476 Speaker 6: by investigative journalist Robert Katz. He published a book in 640 00:41:40,596 --> 00:41:44,156 Speaker 6: nineteen ninety that remains the most comprehensive look into this 641 00:41:44,316 --> 00:41:47,996 Speaker 6: art world tragedy. He spoke with dozens of Anna and 642 00:41:48,076 --> 00:41:52,036 Speaker 6: Carl's friends in noisy restaurants, in parks, in busy offices, 643 00:41:52,716 --> 00:41:55,756 Speaker 6: and you'll hear the voices of some art world insiders 644 00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:59,156 Speaker 6: on these tapes who have since decided not to talk. 645 00:42:00,196 --> 00:42:02,556 Speaker 6: Most folks don't want to discuss what happened that night. 646 00:42:03,076 --> 00:42:05,716 Speaker 6: They don't want to talk about what the ramifications of 647 00:42:05,756 --> 00:42:08,756 Speaker 6: that night were on the art world. They don't want 648 00:42:08,756 --> 00:42:11,636 Speaker 6: to con and plate what it means when a community 649 00:42:11,796 --> 00:42:14,796 Speaker 6: is torn apart by violence, and they don't want to 650 00:42:14,836 --> 00:42:19,316 Speaker 6: discuss whether or not justice has been served. All these 651 00:42:19,356 --> 00:42:22,796 Speaker 6: different folks not talking for all of their different reasons 652 00:42:23,556 --> 00:42:26,196 Speaker 6: means that a veil of silence started to fall over 653 00:42:26,236 --> 00:42:31,836 Speaker 6: this project, and I can't lie. The more silence we encountered, 654 00:42:32,276 --> 00:42:35,876 Speaker 6: the more sad and frustrated I became. And the more 655 00:42:35,916 --> 00:42:38,956 Speaker 6: silence we encountered, the more I wanted to talk.