1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not going to 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you protection of I heart radio. 3 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: So as we record this and as it comes out 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: is International Women's History Months. We kind of missed Women's 5 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: International History Day, but we feel like we do this 6 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: all the time right around right that's kind of my show, 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: So that's kind of the whole thing. So we thought 8 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: we'd bring back some classics with our good friend Eves 9 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: about some women in history. We really made some big moves, 10 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: and I wanted to bring back this one about Jackie Orbs, 11 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: who really made a lot of history and uh made 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: a lot of ground in the world of women cartoonists. 13 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: Because I was, as I've mentioned me and for a 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: lot of people, my Quarantine University was last weekend March, 15 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: and I was just thinking back over the two years, 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: what what are things that I have done that are new. 17 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: One of the things I did over Quarantine is I've 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: read a lot of comics. I have read a lot 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: of comics, and I'm glad that I did. It's never 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: that I didn't want to. And I've talked before about 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: I grew up like in comics. I think I talked 22 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: about it in here, but I just, you know, there's 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: so much entertainment all the time, and I was always 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: going all over the place. It was, you know, it's 25 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,559 Speaker 1: a tragic reason to have the time to do something, 26 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: but it was nice that I got to do it. 27 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: And now I'm like hooked, so I don't know what 28 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. They reeled me and Samantha, they really 29 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: they did. Oh jeez. Although now I'm all confused about 30 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: Cannon and I don't know what's going on anymore. But 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, you have to be the one to tell 32 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: me about it. Though I know, I feel like every 33 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: every Star Wars related or fictional woman you don't know 34 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: related episode is kind of for you. It's kind of me, Samantha. 35 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: Remember when we talked about this a little bit ago. 36 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: Well here you go, yes, yes, um, and I have 37 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: been excited to see you know, there's still as with 38 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: a lot of entertainment we're talking about, there's still a 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: huge gap. But I'm excited to see more women and 40 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 1: marginalized people in this field and doing this work and 41 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: in the realm of comics and and sort of this 42 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 1: fan stuff that I complained in a recent happy hour, 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: and I was like, I always been men. Well this 44 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: is yeah. I don't want to say that there aren't 45 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: women and people of color doing this and there haven't been, 46 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: because they have and Jack yours as one who absolutely 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: made some real waves with her work, So please enjoy 48 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: this classic episode. Hello, this is Annie, Oh this is Samantha, 49 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,919 Speaker 1: and welcome to stuff I never told your protection of 50 00:02:50,040 --> 00:03:02,679 Speaker 1: I heart media. Today. We are so excited, so excited 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: because it's time for another female first, which means we 52 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: are joined by our good friend and co worker Eves. Hi. Eves, Hey, y'all, Hi, 53 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: how how are you doing? Eves? I'm doing well. You know, 54 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: I have my ups and downs, as I imagine every 55 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: y'all and everyone else are having right now. But um, 56 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: I'm doing really well. I'm like really steeped in history, 57 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: so I'm having to try to make sure that i 58 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: stay really present in the moment since I'm doing so 59 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: much history research. I'm like, is it or is it 60 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen? Who knows? Because I'm not going to like it. 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 1: You have an exaggerated version of what everyone is experiencing, 62 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: wherein we don't know the date or what day of 63 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: the week it is. You're like, is it nineteen nineteen, right. 64 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 1: I was thinking about this the other day. Yeah, I 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: was like, well, I like, because I'm not there's there's 66 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: not that much interaction with the world around me. I'm 67 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: like so steeped in history. It's just become a whole 68 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: thing for me. That is such a specific like history 69 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 1: podcast researcher problem. I love it. And you aren't coming 70 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: to us from your home studios, uh as Samantha and 71 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: I are. I am coming from my closet. Would you 72 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: describe your home studios for us? So? Um, the quote 73 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: unquote home studio that I'm in right now is the 74 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: room that I usually work from. So it's my study, 75 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: have all my books in here. I'm typically in a 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: closet when I'm recording this day in history class. Um. 77 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: But this is obviously this is a special occasion because 78 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 1: I get to share the studio with you too today. 79 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: So um, I needed a little bit more more room 80 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: and comfort so I could actually move and not be 81 00:04:56,640 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: in a dark space with no light sources as my computer. Yeah, 82 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: and what else has been here? Um? Got a little 83 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: art and a desk, a yoga mat on the floor, 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: and some like floor pillows and it's pretty Uh, it's 85 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: pretty low key, a low key studio if you want 86 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: to call it a studio. It looks nice. I mean 87 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: it's got a lot of natural light. I say, as 88 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: I'm like garishly lit by this home depot lamp. And also, 89 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: by the way, listeners, if you don't follow Eaves on Instagram, 90 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: her instagram is amazing and all this amazing yoga stuff. 91 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: So Sminty has been doing these yoga sessions and we 92 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 1: are not quite as professional as perhaps some would want, 93 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: but yes, I always really appreciate your posts and they're 94 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,040 Speaker 1: they're amazing, so check that, and I appreciate what you're 95 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 1: doing too, because it's like to me, you know, any 96 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: amount of yoga that one can have more in their life, 97 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: I'm all here for it. Yes, yes it is. It's 98 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: been really sexually yeah yeah, okay, So for today, I 99 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: absolutely loved your pick. Can you tell us the woman 100 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: you are have brought for us? Eaves? Yeah, So today 101 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about Jackie Arms. And she's one 102 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: of those people who I got to touch on a 103 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 1: little bit in this day in history class, but that's 104 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: only so long, and I just really wanted to dig 105 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: into her story a little bit more because it truly 106 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 1: is fascinating. Her story is one of those first that's like, 107 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: as we always put our disclaimer on first, like first 108 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,800 Speaker 1: have a lot of social implications and like there are 109 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: a lot of caveats to first, but in this case, 110 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: it's one of those first where she was the first 111 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: Black American woman cartoonists to have her own syndicated comic strip. Um. 112 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 1: It was read across the US, read widely, but it's 113 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 1: still one of those industries where there aren't a lot 114 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: of black women in it. And obviously the industry is 115 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,599 Speaker 1: very different now than it was when she was working 116 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: in the Nine Dreds. But who doesn't love, you know, cartoons. 117 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I really enjoyed digging into her, her art 118 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: in the comics that she's done. I had had like legitimately, 119 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: it was like, oh, this is great, this is so good. Yeah, 120 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: why don't we we get started into her her life 121 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: and all of her accomplishments. Cool, Yeah, let's do it. Um. 122 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: So she was born Zelda Mavin Jackson in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 123 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: around nineteen eleven. Her father was William Winfield Jackson and 124 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: her mother was Mary Brown Jackson. So her father, he 125 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,559 Speaker 1: had a theater in a printing business, and her mother 126 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: was a seamstress and she loved music in the arts, 127 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: so that was a part of her life early on. 128 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: She also had a sister named Dolores, and her father 129 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: died in an accident when she was young, and that 130 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: left her and her younger sister in the care of 131 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: their mother and other family members. They lived with their 132 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: grandmother while their mother worked as a living domestic worker, 133 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: and so as a child she moved with the family 134 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: to Monongahela, which is in a suburb of Pittsburgh. She 135 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: drew a lot from the time of her childhood. So 136 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: not only did she have those arts influences around her 137 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: when she was a child, she was already doing a 138 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: lot of her own drawings. So she published her first 139 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: cartoons in high school yearbooks around nine and nineteen thirty. 140 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: So that was I think as a you know, a 141 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 1: lot of people start getting those experiences with art and 142 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: with the careers that they want to go into early 143 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: on in their high school years, and that is that 144 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: was the case with her. So she was working in 145 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: her for her high school yearbook, and so while she 146 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: was still a student at Monongahela High School, she inquired 147 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: about working at the Pittsburgh Courier. So the Pittsburgh Courier 148 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: was a black newspaper established in nineteen o seven. It 149 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: was one of the first black newspapers to publish both 150 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: low goal and national editions. So they assigned her to 151 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,679 Speaker 1: cover a boxing match and they sent kind of the 152 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: chaperone with her. She did that, and then after she 153 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: graduated high school, she moved to Pittsburgh and she began 154 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: working as a proof reader at the Pittsburgh Courier. So 155 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: kind of a natural transition from the work that she 156 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: got with them in high school and then moving to 157 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: work with him after she graduated high school. So she 158 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: was working as a freelance reporter. She was covering police 159 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: beats in court cases and human interest stories, but she 160 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: was really interested in drawing, like that was the thing 161 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: that pulled to her, even though she was doing all 162 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: of this reporting work. She was really interested in drawing. 163 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: And so she married Earl ORMs in the nineteen thirties 164 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: and they had a daughter together, Jacqueline, But unfortunately she 165 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: died of a brain tumor when she was very young. 166 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: But Jackie she released her first cartoon in nineteen thirty seven, 167 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: and that was Torti Brown and Dixie to Harlem. So 168 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: this is the first cartoon that we see over the 169 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: course of her life. She has four, so this is 170 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: her first one. So it lasted for about a year 171 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: from May and nineteen thirty seven to April of nineteen 172 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: thirty eight, and that was published in the Pittsburgh Courier, which, 173 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: as I said earlier, you know, Pittsburgh Courier had different 174 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: editions across the United States. So that helped her work 175 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,320 Speaker 1: as we go on throughout the through the rest of 176 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: her cartoons, throughout the rest of her career. Um that 177 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: helps her get a national readership that comes along with 178 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: her being in the Pittsburgh Courier. So the comic strip 179 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: it followed Torto Brown, black teen from a small town 180 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 1: in Mississippi, who moved to New York and had a 181 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 1: numerous amount of escapades and along the way found fame 182 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: at the Cotton Club, which was an actual popular nightclub 183 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties. And so even 184 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: though Torto Brown is kind of going on this very 185 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,839 Speaker 1: singular adventure because specific to her, there are also parts 186 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: that mirror Jackie's life herself and then like all of 187 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: the social things that were happening, whether that's related to 188 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 1: you know, music at the time or people who were 189 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: in the music in the art scene at the time. Um, 190 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: those are people who feature in and inspire the comic. 191 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: So at the cond Club, Torti gets to meet all 192 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: these people like Duke Ellington and cav Callaway and she 193 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: dances with Bill Bojangles Robinson. From the beginning, like from 194 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: the front, from the jump, Jackie's really clear about the 195 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: characters that she likes to portray, and she has this 196 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: strong black female character that she puts in all of 197 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: her comics, and that's the case with this one. So 198 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: Torti was super outspoken, attractive, and not subservient at all, 199 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: and she wasn't a caricature as so many other depictions 200 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: of black people in general, and black women specifically when 201 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: that comes to you know, caricatures like the ammy and 202 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: just all of the other derogatory stereotypes that people would 203 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: place on images of black girls and black women in 204 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: the media. Torti was not that at all. She was 205 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: super outspoken, She had a lot to say and a 206 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: lot of meaningful things to say, and she wasn't a 207 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: caricature at all, so that that comic just followed a 208 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: lot of her adventures. But at the same time, it 209 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: addressed a lot of social issues that were happening and 210 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: that a lot of other people weren't talking about, and 211 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: especially not black female artists or black female specifically black 212 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: female artists who were making cartoons. Um, it was addressing 213 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: racism and the challenges that black people moving north face. 214 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: So there was a lot happening there um purposefully and 215 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: just by matter of it being Jackie who was publishing 216 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: the cartoons in the newspaper itself, right, because I imagine 217 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: now I know for sure it was mostly white men 218 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: and other industry dominated by mostly white men still is 219 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: unfortunately to some degree, yes, and um, white men, there 220 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: were also white women who were working, and they were 221 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: black men who were working and who were her contemporaries 222 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: who were also producing cartoons that had messages that were 223 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: related to racism and some of the some of the 224 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: same things that that we're talking about, all of the 225 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: same things. Because later in life, you know, Jackie gets 226 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: into things like abuse against women and like, you know, 227 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: some really some things that not nobody else was talking about. Cartoons. 228 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: But there were other people, but they didn't quite do 229 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: it in the way that she did it in terms 230 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: of like white women were drawing white women characters a 231 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 1: lot of the time, and um, if it was a 232 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: black man, maybe he wasn't talking about the same issues 233 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: that she was and her characters. While other people may 234 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,480 Speaker 1: have relied on even if they were giving off social messages, 235 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: they might have relied on more specific characters to speak 236 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: about these social messages. Whereas Torchy in this case was 237 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: a woman. She was very outspoken, and she was very 238 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: like subversive and the things that she was saying, and 239 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,599 Speaker 1: she was a singular character who was very well developed 240 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: and had a lot of individual spirit. Yes, yeah, absolutely 241 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: absolutely so, as I said earlier, she had a huge 242 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: readership across the United States and it lasted for about 243 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: a year, but its original run, once that was done, 244 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: there around fifty three strips of Torchy. So Jackie and Earle, 245 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: there were some moves that happened here. They moved to Salem, 246 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: Ohio for a couple of years, and they moved to Chicago, 247 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: and this is Chicago is basically where she spends the 248 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: rest of her life. And as we know, Chicago is 249 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: just a huge place when it comes to the arts 250 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: and cultural scene for black people. Um. They were on 251 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: the South Side of Chicago, which was also really big 252 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: for that at the time, for a lot of their 253 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: life together. UM. So once she got to Chicago, she 254 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: spent just like a short brief st studying drawing in 255 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: a nine degree program at the Art Institute of Chicago. 256 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: And when she was there, she began working for the 257 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: Chicago Defender, which was a black weekly, UM, and she 258 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: covered news there. But she wasn't there for long at all, 259 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: for reasons that remained not quite clear. Um. But in 260 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: nineteen they started publishing her single panel cartoon, Candy, that 261 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: only ran for about four months. So Candy was a 262 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: domestic worker who worked for a rich white woman and 263 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,960 Speaker 1: so she like she was very subversive in a similar 264 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: vein to Torchy, and she, like I said, that didn't 265 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: last that long. But that year, that same year, she 266 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: was already back putting work in the Pittsburgh Courier, even 267 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: though she was still living in Chicago. So this is 268 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: the comic that's most prominent or that lasted for the longest. 269 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: The thing that really got her a lot of the 270 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: spotlight was Patty Joe and Ginger. Um. The Courier began 271 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: publishing that comic, which was also a sing old panel cartoon. 272 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: And I really love this one, Like, there are just 273 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: so many. If y'all get a chance to to look 274 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: at Jackie rams Is work, please go check out some 275 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: of Patty Joe and Ginger because I just love the characters, um, 276 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 1: and they are so stylished. I was like, wow, I 277 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: want I want all of their outfits. Yes, I totally agree, right, 278 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 1: I was looking at the one with the paper dolls 279 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: where she had the different sun dresses and side. I 280 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, if I had a body that like great, 281 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: I would want that. That would that would be if 282 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: I actually got without anymore, I would wear that. For sure. 283 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: You can dress something inside and your body looks fantastic. 284 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: Thank you. Well that would let me rephrase that, not 285 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: that meaning just I'm definitely quarantining. Well it seems like 286 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: a wink wink statement, you know what I mean? You know, 287 00:16:53,840 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, but yes, she was very very stylish. Yes, 288 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: so it was Patty Joe was the little girl and 289 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: Ginger was the older sister. So they were separated by 290 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: like twenty years or so. Like Ginger was twenties something 291 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: and Patty Joe was like a five year old, and Ginger, 292 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: the older sister, never spoke she This is another reason 293 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: I love her. Not only were her clothes amazing, she 294 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: just like had all the best facial expressions back to 295 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 1: whatever Patty Joe would say, because Patty Joe had all 296 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: the wise cracks. So you know, both of them kind 297 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: of fed off of each other in that dynamic. And 298 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: what was interesting about that is that, like you mentioned earlier, 299 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: Annie or asking about other people are saying, you know, 300 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: other people weren't necessarily making these kind of cartoons and 301 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: giving these social messages. They definitely weren't being spoken through 302 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: a child that was the age of Patty Joe. So 303 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 1: it kind of gave Jackie a different end into saying 304 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: what she wanted to say and saying it very clearly, 305 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: like she didn't mince any worse in in the cartoons 306 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: at all. Like if this is about McCarthyism, you can 307 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: tell us about McCarthyism, Or if this is about housing 308 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: equality issues, then you're going to be able to tell 309 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: that from the cartoon. There was no it wasn't really 310 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: a subtext or undertones. It was like heavy overtone. Um, 311 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: but coming through the mouth of a little girl. Um. 312 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: And yeah. So she, like I said, she commented on 313 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: so many things in McCarthyism was one of them. She 314 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: touched on the Emmett Till case, she touched on the 315 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: Korean War, she touched on the Cold War, she touched 316 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: on nuclear weapons, just a range of different things in 317 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: the comics. So I wanted to just give word for 318 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 1: word a couple of the panels that she created. So 319 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: there was one nineteen fifty five, and and in it, 320 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: Pattie Joe says, I don't want to seem touchy on 321 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: the subject, but that new little white tea kettle just 322 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: whistled at me. So um. Meanwhile, Ginger is just like 323 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: looking at her, and Patty Joe's being all precocious as 324 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: she does. And obviously there are all these implications that 325 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: come with what Patty Joe was talking about the history 326 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: of like black men and white women and like all 327 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: of the things that got black men lynched, um when 328 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: it came to interactions with white people. And so for 329 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: Patty Joe and Jackie Arms herself to put that in 330 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: a comic, and for Patty Joe to be commenting on 331 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: this and framing it from a perspective risks like a 332 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: little girl is saying this and she's talking about a 333 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: tea kettle. But we all know what she's talking about. 334 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: It's not really hidden. It's not a hidden message at all. 335 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: Is very indicative of the kind of work that Worms did. 336 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 1: Like that was pretty much how the rest of her 337 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: comics went. So there is another one where Patty Joe 338 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,400 Speaker 1: refers to a letter that she wrote and you said, 339 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 1: it's a letter to my congressman. I want to get 340 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: it straight from Washington, just which is the American way 341 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: of life New York or Georgia, And as we are 342 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: in Georgia obviously relate to that one hard. And George 343 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: is also heavy in the news right now too. Um so, 344 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 1: m hyeah those are mm hmmm sure is sure is 345 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: probably not the spotlight we want it, But no, I 346 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: would say, definitely not. We have some more for you listeners, 347 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: but first we have a quick break for a word 348 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So 349 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: Patty Joe and Ginger ran for a really long time. 350 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: It ran for eleven years, from forty five to nineteen 351 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 1: fifty six. For over five hundred cartoons, so it did 352 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 1: really well. It was written by a lot of people, 353 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: and it appeared in other newspapers, and it even had 354 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: a doll based on it. So in nineteen forty seven, 355 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 1: the Terry Lead Doll Company created a doll based on 356 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: Patty Joe. The doll was originally produced by the company 357 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:31,360 Speaker 1: until nineteen nine. She had a bunch of accessories and dresses. 358 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: She had a huge wardrobe. The doll did and it 359 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: just defied stereotypical images of black girls that counter to 360 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: other dolls. And as we spoke about earlier media representations 361 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: of her um, she looked just as mischievous the doll 362 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: of Patty Joe did as she was actually in the cartoons. 363 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: But even though the doll wasn't produced that long, you know, 364 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: it didn't have some popularity, and it's like worth a 365 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: lot now, like those dolls are worth a time. Gosh, yeah, 366 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: they were in their outfits were nice too, mm hmmmm. 367 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: So all the while she was creating all these cartoons, 368 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: she was doing everything herself, so there wasn't a division 369 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: of a story staff and drawers and anchors. She was 370 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: doing everything, you know, and that ended up, you know, 371 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: that had an effect on her physical health later in life, 372 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: um as she did get rheumatory arthritis which affected how 373 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: she was able to do her work. But she worked 374 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 1: a ton and she had that same fire for creating 375 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: characters like Torchy and characters like Candy, and characters like 376 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: Patty Joe and Ginger. Even though Ginger was silent, she 377 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: was also a very important character in it as the 378 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: older sister of Patti Joe. She ended up bringing Torchi 379 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: back in nineteen fifty at the request of a syndicate, 380 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: and that was called Torchy and Heartbeats, and it ran 381 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: for four years. And while that was more so about relationships, 382 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: you know, it was about love. This time it wasn't 383 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: also in color rather than in black and white. Um 384 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: there were a few like content issues in the beginning 385 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: because they got a guy named John Messman to write 386 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: the dialogue. Obviously, Jackie was not happy with that kind 387 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: of arrangement, and there's a quote where she says she 388 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 1: never liked dreamy little women who can't hold their own. 389 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: So she eventually ended up getting creative control over the 390 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: strip again, and that one, just like the other one, 391 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: still had political messages in it, so it had it 392 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: talked about things like silence against swimming, public health, environmental 393 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: issues like environmental racism, and big, big ideas and big 394 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: messages in it, just like the rest of her work 395 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,600 Speaker 1: did um. And there were people who spoke on enjoying 396 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 1: how much they enjoyed Torchy and enjoyed Jackie arms Is 397 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: comics like Langston Hughes professed to be a fan of 398 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: the Torchy comic. And as we'll talk about a little later, 399 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: Jackie was she rubbed what is it rubbed elbows or shoulders? 400 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: Rubbed elbows? I can't think of the idiom. Well, now 401 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: it's probably quarantine times, probably rubbing elbows. I think it 402 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: originally was rubbing shoulders, but you're right, I mean it is. Yeah, 403 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 1: that's about idiom in quarantine times, We're gonna have to 404 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: reinvent a lot of things, including some phrases. True. True. 405 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: But the point that I was trying to make there 406 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 1: without an appropriate idiom for this time is that she later, um, 407 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: we'll get to how she did meet with a lot 408 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 1: of people who were also in arts, like in Chicago, 409 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: just because of the circles that she ran in and 410 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: the kind of prestige that her husband had, because he 411 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: may an itched a really nice hotel in Chicago. But yeah, 412 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: she she also, like I said, a lot of her 413 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: comics were inspired by the times and by like jazz 414 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 1: singers and the arts and culture of the time. And 415 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: she herself was a very fashionable person in real life. 416 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: Jackie ORMs was and did a lot of things with 417 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: that as well. But anyway, she also made paper dolls, 418 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: which was kind of a tradition, I guess you could 419 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 1: say at the time to go along with comics, and 420 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: hers were called torchy talgs um and those are just 421 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: little paper dolls that were as cute and stablish and 422 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, just in that went along with the torchy 423 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: comic And yeah, so that's what she did for a 424 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: lot of her life. She worked on several comic strips, 425 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: and she did a lot of reporting, but she also 426 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 1: did things in Chicago so that that had nothing to 427 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: do with her comic strips, Like she put on fashion shows, 428 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: and she had fundraisers that she went to community events, um, 429 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: like appearing at career Day. And she was known in 430 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: Chicago for her participation in anti racist and humanitarian organizations 431 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: and movements and knowing that the times were that what 432 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: they were, and we're talking about the nineteen forties and 433 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties. She sometimes worked with members of the 434 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: Communist Party. So as we often get too in these stories, 435 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: we love the ever so ubiquitous FBI file. There was 436 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: one on Land four around ten years. We love a 437 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: good FBI file. I just love every time we did 438 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: about a strong Yeah, a strong black woman. Were obviously 439 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: going to call talk about the FBI being suspicious and 440 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: putting up like following them and tagging them somehow. Yeah, 441 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: it's sure to happen, Sure to happen. And that was 442 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,120 Speaker 1: the case with Jackie. UM agents interrogated her from time 443 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: to time, and they reported about those interrogations. They lent 444 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: her to the South Side Community Arts Center, the Artists Guild, 445 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 1: the Cultural Club, and the Du Bois Theater Guild. UM 446 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: And here's an excerpt from what one agent wrote in 447 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,119 Speaker 1: her file. So here's what they say it. As a 448 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: result of the interview, it was apparent and interviewing agents 449 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: that this subject is not very well informed or intelligent, 450 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,119 Speaker 1: but rather a pseudo intellectual type person, flighty and temperament 451 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 1: and not inclined throughout the interview to seriously consider what 452 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 1: the agents were attempting to clarify. Ah, that's so outrageous, 453 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,399 Speaker 1: it is, and we have to imagine that that that 454 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: was their impression of her. But that was a purposeful 455 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,439 Speaker 1: communication of character on Jackie Ormes is part right. So 456 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: I can just imagine her being there giving the face 457 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: of your stupid I'm not answering these questions. And because 458 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 1: there's a frustrated and they don't want to say they're 459 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: out smarter to buy a black woman, They're like, oh, 460 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: she's flighty. She definitely didn't understand what we're asking, right, 461 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 1: that's gotta be it, right. Yeah, personal biases were definitely 462 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,400 Speaker 1: involved in this situation. She said in later interrogations that 463 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,160 Speaker 1: she wasn't a member of the Communist Party per se, 464 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: but she did align with the party because it offered 465 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: quote humanistic, social and economic advantages to black people, So 466 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: she did over time. I wouldn't even use the phrase 467 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: open up really because she didn't really give the FBI 468 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: agents much, but she did, you know, say that make 469 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: clear you know what her motivations were in speaking with 470 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: the people that she did, because she was so active 471 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: in different groups and organizations. So she um her career 472 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: as a cartoonist and kind of ended in the mid 473 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: nineteen fifties because a lot of things were changing that 474 00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: were outside of her control, even though she continued to 475 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: create are There were a lot of black newspapers that 476 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: were shifting focus because the civil rights movement was cropping 477 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: up in just Getting Huger at the time, and a 478 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: lot of those black newspapers were cutting those comics sections 479 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 1: to make room for coverage of the civil rights movement. 480 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: So that kind of failed by the wayside, which meant that, 481 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: you know, there wasn't really much room for Jackie's work anymore. 482 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: So she did start, you know, in fine art and painting, 483 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: but her rheumatoid arthritists did affect that work as well, 484 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: so she stopped that. At the same time, her husband 485 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: was still managing the hotel that I alluded to earlier, 486 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: which was the Sutherland Hotel in Chicago, and that was 487 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: a thing that put her in touch with a lot 488 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: of performers, a lot of writers, and a lot of artists, 489 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: and they formed friendships with people like the singer's Lena 490 00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: Horn and Sara Van and she sometimes even them to 491 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: perform in her fundraising shows. And yeah, so she was 492 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: an active community member as well, doing a lot of 493 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: things in her community that contributed to social messages in 494 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: the real world even beyond you know, all of the 495 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: characters that were in her comic strips, So she was 496 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: kind of a person who talked to the talk through 497 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: her comic strips, but also walks the walk. Yeah, for sure, 498 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:30,920 Speaker 1: we have a little bit more for you listeners, but 499 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: first we have one more quick break for word from 500 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: our sponsor and her back. Thank you sponsoring. So here's 501 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: where we arrive at the end of Jackie ORMs is life, 502 00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: even though she has such a long and prolific career 503 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: when it came to her our in her comics. She 504 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: died in December of nineteen and there was an article 505 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: in the Chicago Tribune where Jackie's sister said Jackie's philosophy 506 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: of life was that you don't wait for someone to 507 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: encourage you to do things. If you want to do it, 508 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: then do it. She was that way since she was 509 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 1: a little and doing sculpting, painting, writing, drawing, whatever. So 510 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: even her sister attests to just how deeply she was 511 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: immersed in her arts and in She was inducted into 512 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 1: the Will Eisner Comics Hall of fame. UM And just 513 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,400 Speaker 1: as we spoke about earlier, just circling back around to 514 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: this after speaking about her work, is that the industry 515 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: was still pretty much off limits to black women. Um 516 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: And from to two thousand and five there was like 517 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: one nationally syndicated black woman newspaper cartoonist who was Barbara 518 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: Branding Croft. So it was definitely an area where the 519 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 1: wills returning slowly. And even though Jackie at the time 520 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: didn't get a lot of shot, even though her comics 521 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 1: were decently read, she still didn't get a ton of recognition. 522 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: And over the years people have mentioned how they've been 523 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: inspired by her work. People like Barbara brand and Croft 524 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 1: have talked about how their work was influenced by Jackie 525 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: ORMs is work, and just the recognition that she deserves 526 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: now that we do have more information on her or 527 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: that she has come back into the public light, it 528 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: still wasn't a field where a lot of black women 529 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: were working in even though there were white women and 530 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: black men working in the field. H Yeah, and it's again, 531 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: this is one of those things where I'm so thrilled 532 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: you brought this to our attention because I had never 533 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: heard of her. But I'm also angry that it took 534 00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: this long because I loved it, Like I really was 535 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: reading your work and just loved it. Um. And I 536 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: I think in something like comics comic strips, it's easy 537 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:19,120 Speaker 1: to dismiss them as sort of frivolous or are you know, 538 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: not that serious, because that's kind of inherent in their nature. 539 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: But she was making powerful statements in her work, and 540 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: we can still see that continue to this day when 541 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: you think of something like political cartoons. But we definitely 542 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: shouldn't dismiss the power of what she was doing, right. 543 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: It's just like having being able to read these comics 544 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: in a newspaper, even though it's in a lighthearted format, 545 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: messages that are actually serious, but also you get to 546 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: laugh at um in context of the things actually happening, 547 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 1: and also seeing and knowing that it is a black 548 00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: woman who's creating them. It provides some sort of you know, 549 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: realness and also lightness within the dark, you know, and 550 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,759 Speaker 1: also calling out what that darkness is. And I just 551 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: I really appreciate, you know, knowing about her work now 552 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: because even though that was created for that context, that 553 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: are there. I think a lot of us can agree 554 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: that there are a lot of things that are still 555 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: the same even if they are operating in a different 556 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,239 Speaker 1: way or lane that Jackie ORMs was talking about in 557 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 1: her comics. M Yeah, absolutely, and I do think, um, 558 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: it is palatable to present it in that way, to 559 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: present things that perhaps people don't want to think about 560 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: or talk about, to put it in something that is 561 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,840 Speaker 1: maybe on the surface lighthearted or is funny, but also 562 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: very serious. I know for me, during all of this 563 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: uh dramas that how we say we're going through, it's 564 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: easiest for me to consume the news through comedy. Um. So, 565 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: I just see so much value in in things like 566 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: this and in the that I think as a power 567 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,400 Speaker 1: to facilitate conversations in a way that a lot of 568 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: other things can't. Right, I agree. I meant to ask, 569 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,759 Speaker 1: is anybody here and artists? I have so much respects 570 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,919 Speaker 1: Like I cannot draw at all, and when I see 571 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: people that can, I just so much respect. It's wrong. 572 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: Is not my strong suit at all? Right me either? Um, Actually, 573 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: I'm really bad at it. I think any you and 574 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: I practice a little bit when we played the House 575 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: Party game and it's it's it's bad. Yeah, but tho 576 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: I drawn it was just like an oval was like 577 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: this kept just I did the same thing. I just 578 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: kept doing circles, and they're like, what the hell is 579 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: Obviously it's it's no man or something. Obviously it's a church. 580 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: I mean I did draw a lot though, for Dungeons 581 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: and dragon they actually do draw quite a bit. Yeah, child, 582 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,400 Speaker 1: but you two are words smiths, so that that's that 583 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: all right? There? Ah, thank you, I'll send I'll send 584 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: my fan fiction over to you post taste. Please do 585 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: You would hate it. It It would make you cry, and 586 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: it used if you have any fan fiction, I would 587 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: also love yours as well. Let's us all share our 588 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: fan fiction. I don't. I don't have fan fiction. Unfortunately, 589 00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: I never I never got into fan writing fan fiction. 590 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: So always get a new skill, you know, a new 591 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: quarantine hobby. Yeah, yeah, I'll put fan fiction on the list. 592 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: I'll think about putting fan fiction on on the list. 593 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,799 Speaker 1: I like this, you'll think about adding it to the list. 594 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: I'll accept that. I'll accept that that was my version 595 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 1: of commitment slash non commitment. Well, moving away reluctantly from 596 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,960 Speaker 1: fan fiction. Thank you so much as always for joining 597 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: us such a pleasure. Can you let the listeners know 598 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: where they can find you, Eves. Yeah, so you can 599 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: find me on this in History Class, which is another 600 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: podcast that I host, which is about events and birthdays 601 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: that happened in history. Um, and you can find me 602 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 1: on social media. I'm at Eve Jeff Code. Um. You 603 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: can also find me at t D I h C 604 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: podcast where the same History class. And that's about it. Yes, yes, 605 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: definitely go check all that stuff out all awesome and 606 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: if you would like to email us, you can. Our 607 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at i heeart media 608 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: dot com. You can find those on Instagram at Stuff 609 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: I've Never Told You or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. 610 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our superproducer Andrew Howard, and thanks 611 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You. The 612 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:51,440 Speaker 1: protection of I Heart Radio for more podcasts from my 613 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio because the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or 614 00:37:54,120 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Y