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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome do Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: Your Mind. I'm Joe McCormick, and my regular co host,

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb is not with us today. He is out

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Speaker 1: on vacation, but as a special treat I am being

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Speaker 1: joined by our in house audio sorcerer, Seth Nicholas Johnson.

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Speaker 1: Say Hi, Seth. Hello, everyone, it's me Seth. How are

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Speaker 1: you doing today? I'm doing great, happy to be on

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Speaker 1: this side of the microphone, happy to help out well

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Speaker 1: wall Robert's out of town, and I'm very happy, um

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Speaker 1: with the subject matter that you chose today, So I'm

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Speaker 1: looking forward to this right We're so we're doing a

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Speaker 1: musical themed episode today. Um, because Seth, you host another podcast,

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Speaker 1: do you want to tell listeners who are not familiar

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Speaker 1: with the Record Store Society what it's all about? Surely? Um? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So obviously the main chunk of my time I spend

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Speaker 1: producing this show Stuff to Blow Your Mind, But I

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Speaker 1: also do a weekly show with that I host with

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Speaker 1: my co host Tara Davies, and it's called Record Store Society,

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Speaker 1: and um, basically it's a podcast for music nerds by

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Speaker 1: music nerds and it's um full blown, just a talk

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Speaker 1: show where people can just share recommendations things we've been

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Speaker 1: listening to lately, what we love, play some music based

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Speaker 1: games that you can't really play with other people because

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Speaker 1: you're going very specific and very nerdy about your music tastes.

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Speaker 1: But we pretend we're in a record store the whole time.

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Speaker 1: That's the gimmick. That's the fun little gimmick where we

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Speaker 1: just uh uh yeah, there's we have sound effects and

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Speaker 1: all of our guests are customers and me and my

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Speaker 1: co host are the employees of the record store and

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Speaker 1: uh yeah, it's fun. It's called Record Store Society and

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Speaker 1: you can find it wherever you find your podcasts. It's

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Speaker 1: a great show, folks. I personally recommended. In fact, Rob

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Speaker 1: and I did a guest episode where we appeared on

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Speaker 1: Record Store Society one time. How long ago is that

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Speaker 1: now is a couple of months ago where we ended

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Speaker 1: up talking Yeah it was music videos. Yes, it was

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Speaker 1: a great one and um yeah, tons of fun everyone.

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Speaker 1: If if anyone's in the mood for music talk, if

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Speaker 1: you're looking for new music recommendations, or you just feel

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Speaker 1: kind of lonely that you don't none of your friends will,

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Speaker 1: you know, go on a deep dive about, you know,

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Speaker 1: bootleg Neil Young albums. Then you know, you can listen

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Speaker 1: to Record Store Society and we'll we'll scratch that itch.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of bootleg Neil Young albums, you ever see that

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Speaker 1: video where he's like going around in record stores and

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Speaker 1: he's finding bootlegs and he's like taking them without paying. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean you love it. You know, there's something about

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Speaker 1: a musical curmudgeon that always makes me very happy. And

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Speaker 1: he's a good one. He's a very good musical curmudgeon. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's great. He like takes it up. He's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: on this record and I don't know what this is. Um.

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Speaker 1: But so anyway, because Seth of the Record Store Society

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Speaker 1: is joining us today, we thought we would talk about

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Speaker 1: a musical topic, and I think we've got a really

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Speaker 1: interesting one that ties up with neuroscience, big puzzles about

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Speaker 1: how our brains were, emotions, the reward system in the brain,

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Speaker 1: music and aesthetics and fear and uh and the autonomic

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Speaker 1: nervous system and all that, and so what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today is those moments when music is not just

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Speaker 1: fun or interesting or intellectually pleasurable, But when musical pleasure

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Speaker 1: sort of grabs you at the level of the body,

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Speaker 1: when it sends a shiver down your spine, or when

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Speaker 1: it causes tingling on your skin or even feeling like

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Speaker 1: it's under your skin, or when it raises goose bumps

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Speaker 1: on your forearms or on your neck, or when it

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Speaker 1: puts a lump in your throat. Today, we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about what is sometimes called free san or

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Speaker 1: frisson uh in the words of one review. We're going

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Speaker 1: to be looking at today it is a transcendent, psycho

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Speaker 1: physiological moment of musical experience. It's the it's the moment

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Speaker 1: where music grabs you by the body and not just

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Speaker 1: the mind. Now, Sath, you actually suggested this topic when

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Speaker 1: we were batting around ideas about what to do today.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember how this came to your mind? What's

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Speaker 1: the story here? Um? It's a concept I very much. Um,

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Speaker 1: I've done mild research into into the past. I'm a

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Speaker 1: person who feels fressan or however we're going to pronounce

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Speaker 1: how do you think you're going to pronounce it today? Joe, Well, dang,

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Speaker 1: I've already been thinking so I've been saying in my head,

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Speaker 1: free song comes from the French. It comes from a

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Speaker 1: French word meaning shiver, shiver isn't now and like he

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Speaker 1: gave me a shiver. But but I've seen plenty of

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Speaker 1: people also call it frissan so or frost san. So

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Speaker 1: we're probably gonna jump around, but I'll try to be

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Speaker 1: as annoying as possible about it. But I'll try to

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Speaker 1: go with freesan as well. Um, yeah, yeah, and um,

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Speaker 1: aesthetic chills is the is my favorite definition of freesan,

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Speaker 1: and um, it's something I experience a lot. And as

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Speaker 1: a big music fan, I've often thought, am I a

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Speaker 1: big music fan because I acutely feel freesan very often?

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Speaker 1: Or do I experience free song often? Because I'm such

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Speaker 1: a big music fan and I spend so much of

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Speaker 1: my time listening to and thinking about it and diving

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Speaker 1: deep and spending all my money on records and blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. Like it's a chicken or the egg situation,

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Speaker 1: which I don't think we can ever have an answer to,

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Speaker 1: but it's an interesting idea and um, I've also not

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Speaker 1: too long ago learned that, of course, not everyone experiences it,

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Speaker 1: which is another very strange aspect when you feel something

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Speaker 1: that you enjoy, like just like whether it be you know, um,

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Speaker 1: the taste of something sour and you go, oh, other

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Speaker 1: people don't taste sour, and you would go, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: I thought everyone had this, And that's that's kind of

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Speaker 1: what I felt when I learned that freesng isn't something

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Speaker 1: that everyone experiences. And anyway, you you're so good at

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Speaker 1: researching things, I thought you would uh answer some questions

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Speaker 1: for me, so i'm I'm I'm ecstatic with with what

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Speaker 1: you've looked into already. Well, I don't think we're gonna

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Speaker 1: have full closure on all of the causes of this

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Speaker 1: of this phenomenon today, but we can raise some questions

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Speaker 1: and bring up some findings that point off an interesting directions.

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Speaker 1: This is one of those that I think is still

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Speaker 1: somewhat of a puzzle, But there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: pieces of it that are on the table now and

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Speaker 1: you can arrange them around in different ways and get

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Speaker 1: some ideas of what to do. But maybe it would

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Speaker 1: be good to start describing really strong examples that unfortunately

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Speaker 1: necessarily I think these are going to have to be

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Speaker 1: subjective that we will talk about examples that affect us personally.

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Speaker 1: But one thing you'll find is that, you know, some

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Speaker 1: musical passages are especially prone to eliciting free so on

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Speaker 1: in many people. But there's nothing that's universal, So what

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Speaker 1: gets you might not get somebody else, and vice versa. Um.

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Speaker 1: But I, I specifically have a memory from when I

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Speaker 1: was in college of I guess a couple of days,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it was even a stretch of a week

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Speaker 1: where I was just listening to one song over and

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Speaker 1: over again. I would like, maybe multiple times a day,

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Speaker 1: put on my head owns, turned the volume way up,

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Speaker 1: and just listen to the same song over and over

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Speaker 1: again with my head bent down and my eyes closed.

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Speaker 1: It was a song by bay Rout that is called

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Speaker 1: non Taste, and it has this moment where you know,

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Speaker 1: it starts off kind of quiet, and then suddenly it

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Speaker 1: becomes loud. The rest of the band comes in, the

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Speaker 1: rhythm kicks in uh, and there's a there's clicking percussion

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Speaker 1: and tonight, And when that happens, I would just feel

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Speaker 1: these waves of tingling and goose bumps, and I would

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Speaker 1: do it over and over again, almost like I was

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Speaker 1: addicted to it. It sort of colors my memory of

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Speaker 1: my experiences of you know, that summer two thousand whatever

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Speaker 1: it was. Uh. And another thing is I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: I still really love music, but I don't really do

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Speaker 1: things like that anymore. I would sometimes do that with songs,

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Speaker 1: especially when I was in high school and college. Gen.

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Speaker 1: It makes me kind of wonder if age might be

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Speaker 1: a factor in in how often and how intensely you

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Speaker 1: experience freesan, or in how motivated you are to have

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Speaker 1: the experience again and again. How does that line up

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Speaker 1: with your experience? It does, However, I would say that

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Speaker 1: I don't believe mine has waned at all, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure. I can't explain that either. I can't

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Speaker 1: explain why, um something that Like when I was in

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Speaker 1: like middle school and high school, I was always the

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Speaker 1: kid with the largest CD collection. I had like the

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Speaker 1: giant binder full of CDs and it was the only

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Speaker 1: thing I cared about and blah blah blah. And you

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Speaker 1: know that at that time when music obsession is very

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Speaker 1: very common. I think most people feel music obsession during

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Speaker 1: those teenage through high school. I guess it's all teenage years.

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Speaker 1: I often had people tell me, oh, when I was

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Speaker 1: your age, I love music too, You'll grow out of it.

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Speaker 1: I heard that again and again and again, and here

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Speaker 1: I am knocking on middle age, and I haven't really

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Speaker 1: changed too much, and I just kind of became a

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Speaker 1: different kind of music fan, I guess, which is now

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Speaker 1: why I host that music show too, and have hosted

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Speaker 1: other music podcasts in my life. And that's why I

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Speaker 1: run a record label, It's why I'm a musician. It's

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Speaker 1: it's all these things that I do and really enjoy.

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Speaker 1: So yes, I I fully agree with you that there

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Speaker 1: is this thing that it must be something like a

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Speaker 1: dopamine release. And we'll get more into like the specific

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Speaker 1: details about what's happening chemically and all that kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff later, But no, I I think I still feel

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Speaker 1: it pretty acutely. I think I still, um do obsess

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Speaker 1: over songs far too much and talk about music far

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Speaker 1: too much and go into all those things. And um,

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Speaker 1: here's another thing that I'm not sure if we'll get

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Speaker 1: to later. You and I are also both musicians in

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Speaker 1: our own ways. You know, we are people who write,

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Speaker 1: record and play music. Um, extremely amateur on my part,

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Speaker 1: but yes, but that's still something that not a lot

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Speaker 1: of people do. And I wonder if being a musician

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Speaker 1: and has something to do with this as well, something

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Speaker 1: that has to do with that wire in your brain,

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Speaker 1: that that self serving dopamine plunger, that that being a

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Speaker 1: rats with a test and hitting the little buttons you

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Speaker 1: can get your little food pellets. I can't answer these questions,

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Speaker 1: but that's something that makes me think of sometimes when

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Speaker 1: I'm playing something over and over and over again, whether

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Speaker 1: I'm listening to it or with my hand I'm playing

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Speaker 1: on a musical instrument, I think about that rats getting

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Speaker 1: a food pellet. Like you're listening to that Bay Roots song,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just like and one more please, and

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Speaker 1: one more please. I don't know. I was trying to

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Speaker 1: think of other songs that I mean, I know there

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Speaker 1: there are tons that are just not coming to mind.

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Speaker 1: But I was making a list while we were getting

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Speaker 1: ready to record this of moments and songs that I

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Speaker 1: know regularly, cause Free Song for Me one is another

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Speaker 1: one I was thinking of. Is the pre chorus in

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Speaker 1: the song Alex Chilton by the Replacements. Do you know

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Speaker 1: the part I'm talking about where the the verse transitions

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Speaker 1: to suddenly the background harmonies come in coinciding with the

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Speaker 1: lines of the lyrics Children by the Millions sing for

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Speaker 1: Alex chill right on that part. Yes, always does it

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Speaker 1: for me. UM. I was also thinking about There is

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Speaker 1: a there's an awesome soul song called into Something Can't

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Speaker 1: Shake Loose by ov Right where I experienced free sonic

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Speaker 1: multiple points in the song, but especially as the intro

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Speaker 1: has these chord changes on the piano along with uh

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Speaker 1: sort of plaintive vocals uh cycling through the same lyrics,

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Speaker 1: but with with these chord changes leading up to when

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Speaker 1: the rhythm kicks in and the strings come in Never

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Speaker 1: Never will Game, second Loo No, and uh yeah, chills

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Speaker 1: all over from it. I mean, I I think if

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Speaker 1: you experience this, they are definitely UM high points that

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Speaker 1: you can always remember. Like of off top of my head,

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Speaker 1: there are always a couple of really strong examples UM,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps some of these examples that we're listing we'll

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Speaker 1: be able to actually somewhat dissect and understand why these

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Speaker 1: examples hold so strong for us. UM. There's a song

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Speaker 1: called Modern World by Wolf Parade where basically the entire

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Speaker 1: second half of the song is this building extended chorus.

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Speaker 1: We're just like you know, it's a it's repetitive, but

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Speaker 1: maybe like every bar to another instrument is added, another

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Speaker 1: element is added, and then like you're you're I literally

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Speaker 1: feel chills thinking about it right now because I can

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Speaker 1: hear those notes in my head and there's something to

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Speaker 1: do with pattern that really really brings you home an

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Speaker 1: X affectation. Um. There's there's also this really great song

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Speaker 1: UM by Animal Collective called Banshee Beat that's very slow,

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Speaker 1: very very very um. It's a it's a languid song,

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Speaker 1: you know, very stretched out, and then every once in

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Speaker 1: a while, the lead singer A V. Tear just hits

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Speaker 1: these notes where he says swimming pool and it's like

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Speaker 1: it erupts out of him like a volcano would erupt lava.

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Speaker 1: And it's though those moments as well, they're there there there,

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Speaker 1: I mean, And I also do think that, like you

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Speaker 1: were saying before, it's very subjective. UM. For example, when

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Speaker 1: I was talking about this with my wife Lizzie last

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Speaker 1: night and she showed me a Loofer Yanya song and

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, I know that song, and

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Speaker 1: she's like, that's the one for me, that's the one

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Speaker 1: that gives me the chills. And I'm like, not a

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Speaker 1: great song, but I've never felt it for that and

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Speaker 1: so so I think you are correct where it is.

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Speaker 1: Just it's a subjective feeling built into us individually, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's shared, but I think quite often it's not.

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Speaker 1: I think it's very personal most of the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's an interesting phenomenon that seems to involve both cognitive

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Speaker 1: and emotional elements. Like it's cognitive in that uh sort

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Speaker 1: of sort of knowledge and context matters, and like it

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Speaker 1: it matters how much attention you're paying to the music.

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Speaker 1: Like music that's on in the background is usually unlikely

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Speaker 1: to cause frees on. I don't know if you have

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Speaker 1: the same experience. It's especially when you're really listening actively

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Speaker 1: that it happens, especially at higher volume. UM. But the

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Speaker 1: other thing is that it sometimes it gets the better

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Speaker 1: of you, or at least in my experience, I can

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Speaker 1: get frees on from songs that, um that I don't

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Speaker 1: want to be unkind, but that I might regard as

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Speaker 1: sort of like blatantly manipulative or what some people might

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Speaker 1: call hack songwriting. You know, I don't like to just

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Speaker 1: like crap all over music, but like, there there are

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Speaker 1: songs that, uh that I like, but like, I acknowledge

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Speaker 1: that they're very cheesy. You know, they're not necessarily they

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Speaker 1: don't convey emotional maturity, and yet they still can cause

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Speaker 1: this intense reaction when I was thinking of is uh.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there's several songs, probably by Jim Steinman, that

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Speaker 1: do this for me. Who he hits It seems like

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Speaker 1: he hits all of the bars. I was thinking about

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Speaker 1: the song Nowhere Fast from the movie Streets of Fire,

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Speaker 1: which is intensely cheesy Jim Steinman pop songwriting, but like

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Speaker 1: on the pre chorus, when you know the high voices

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Speaker 1: come in, it jumps up an octave and it's really loud,

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Speaker 1: and I get the shivers and and I I, um,

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Speaker 1: I've definitely experienced the same thing, and that line between

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Speaker 1: cheesy and emotional and what your body is actually taking

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Speaker 1: in as opposed to perhaps what your brain thinks differently

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Speaker 1: of it, Like there's like an intellectual and an emotional

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Speaker 1: place where it hits you. And sometimes I'm not even

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Speaker 1: sure if this is true. Um, there's a feeling of

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Speaker 1: embarrassment almost for the performer. And then you think to yourself,

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Speaker 1: are these chills that I'm feeling part of free san

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Speaker 1: or are these chills, perhaps some sort of like almost

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Speaker 1: like a cringe thing. And I think it's usually free song.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's usually embarrassment. But they're they're they're

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Speaker 1: not too good for Jim Steinman exactly, but I do

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Speaker 1: think they are like somehow, perhaps like neighbors in a way.

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Speaker 1: And I think there is something about emotional poll compared

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Speaker 1: with intellectual poll, and them working in tandem can create

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Speaker 1: this emotion becaucause at the end of the day, a

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Speaker 1: lot of music is just math. It's a lot of patterns,

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Speaker 1: it's a lot of um time signature errs, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot of you know, hitting things at the correct time.

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Speaker 1: And so in addition to that, there's that's the intellectual side,

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Speaker 1: and then there's the performance aspect, which brings an emotional side,

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Speaker 1: and that can I am going down a rabbit hole here,

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Speaker 1: but I think you understand what I'm saying. Oh yeah, yeah, totally. UM.

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Speaker 1: One last example for people to think about, maybe before

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Speaker 1: we move on to UH, to dissecting the concept a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, is UH. This is one example. I

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Speaker 1: came across by way of a researcher named Matt Sachs.

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Speaker 1: So I was watching an interview with him that I

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Speaker 1: found on the internet. And uh and he mentioned that

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Speaker 1: in demonstrating musical free song in his lectures, he used

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Speaker 1: an isolated track of the background vocals from the song

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Speaker 1: Gimme Shelter by the Rolling Stones, and those background vocals

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Speaker 1: are sung by a singer named Mary Clayton. And when

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Speaker 1: you when you, when I hear them in the song,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I love Gimme Shelter. It's classic rock song

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Speaker 1: and it's great, but the song itself does not give

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Speaker 1: me chills. However, the isolated background vocals by Mary Clayton

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Speaker 1: absolutely give me chills, it all up and down the body.

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Speaker 1: Uh And and I think that's interesting too, that you

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Speaker 1: could actually heighten the effect in some cases by removing

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Speaker 1: other elements and isolating just one part of a song.

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Speaker 1: Uh And Sax has actually said in this interview, I

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Speaker 1: was watching that, um something like nine percent of people

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Speaker 1: say that this one example gives them chills. It seems

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Speaker 1: to be like a sort of home run example to use.

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Speaker 1: Let's try it on our audience for a second. Now

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Speaker 1: we're gonna give you the caveat here that because of

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Speaker 1: legal fair use stuff, I can only play about ten

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Speaker 1: seconds for you. So you may not feel it in

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Speaker 1: this moment, but perhaps if you look this up on

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Speaker 1: your own and listen to the full thing. However, I

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Speaker 1: gotta say, um, when I listened to this track for

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Speaker 1: the first time with this isolated Mary Clayton thing, it

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Speaker 1: kicked in for me pretty quickly. So here, let's play

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Speaker 1: a little bit of that track right now. So that's

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Speaker 1: the Mary Clayton isolated vocal there and powerful. Yeah, absolutely

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Speaker 1: is um. There's a lot of ways that people have

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Speaker 1: described this feeling, like, like, what are a few of them? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there are different terms people of use. Some people

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Speaker 1: call it aesthetic chills. Some people say musical chills. Because

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Speaker 1: obviously part of the sensation is similar to feeling cold,

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Speaker 1: they're also somewhat different. There's a a tingling or shivering

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Speaker 1: sensation that runs up different parts of the body. Different

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Speaker 1: uh studies have looked at feeling this in different parts

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Speaker 1: of the body, but it seems to sometimes happen in

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Speaker 1: the limbs, like in the arms or legs or up

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Speaker 1: and down the spine. Of course, there is the term

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Speaker 1: free so on which we've been using today, and that's

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Speaker 1: from the French word meaning shiver. Uh. Some people have

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Speaker 1: used the term uh skin orgasm, which that's simes uh

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Speaker 1: in some ways kind of kind of phenomenologically accurate with

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Speaker 1: some of the sensations, but it also brings in a

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Speaker 1: lot of baggage that's not that's perhaps confusing. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: in particular, um, because I have also come across that

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Speaker 1: term before, and I get it in like a almost

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Speaker 1: like a cut ce description kind of way. However, at

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Speaker 1: least in my understanding, there's nothing really sexual associated with

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Speaker 1: this phenomenon whatsoever. So it does just kind of like

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Speaker 1: add another element that doesn't actually exist, at least to

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Speaker 1: my understanding. Yeah, it brings in baggage that is not

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Speaker 1: necessary to understand the concept, and so it's probably better

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Speaker 1: not to do that one if you're trying to ask

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Speaker 1: what is this thing and how can we explain it? Right?

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Speaker 1: And then there's one other thing we should probably mention

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Speaker 1: just by way of saying that we're not really going

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Speaker 1: to get into this today, which is the the concept

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Speaker 1: of a s MR. People have asked us to talk

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Speaker 1: about this on the show before. I guess we've never

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Speaker 1: really gone into it in depth. It seems like this

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Speaker 1: may have some kind of overlap with what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today, or at least share some boundaries, but we're

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Speaker 1: just gonna bracket that as as a concept that maybe

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Speaker 1: in some ways related, but it's different from what we're

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Speaker 1: talking about. Rights. Anecdotally, I can say for myself, I

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Speaker 1: experience freesan often and strongly, but I don't believe I've

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Speaker 1: ever experienced a s MR. So I I can't explain that.

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Speaker 1: But you, I completely agree with you. It's it's it's

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Speaker 1: uh could be related, but definitely bracketed and separate. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So for the rest of this episode, we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: focusing on this feeling of frees on the subject of

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Speaker 1: the psycho physiological response to music, and we're gonna be

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Speaker 1: asking this question of why do certain songs, specifically certain

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Speaker 1: moments in songs elicit such a strong reaction in the body.

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Speaker 1: What does it have to do with pleasure and pain

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Speaker 1: and the obscure functioning of the reward pathways and our brains?

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Speaker 1: Who gets it, what causes it? And why is it pleasurable? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And it's so Yeah, I'm really glad you brought the

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Speaker 1: subject up, Seth, because I think it's a fascinating puzzle,

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Speaker 1: one that we probably can't conclusively answer, but we can

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Speaker 1: raise findings that that point us off in a lot

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Speaker 1: of interesting directions. I think maybe the listeners will have

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun trying to see if they can

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Speaker 1: put this puzzle together themselves as well. And I think

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Speaker 1: with those puzzle pieces, it does make the experience of

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Speaker 1: experiencing freezon a bit more fun when you can perhaps

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Speaker 1: recognize those patterns in the music you're listening to and go, oh,

396
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Speaker 1: perhaps that's the reason why I'm feeling this right now,

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Speaker 1: and get kind of a repeatable experiment where you can go, oh,

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Speaker 1: I've noticed that X, Y or Z are what cause

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Speaker 1: it in my own sensations, and then it is. But

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Speaker 1: it's a little self experimentational and it's honestly, I find

401
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 1: it kind of fun. Yeah. Ohh. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: most dangerous and thrilling of states, the state of being

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Speaker 1: able to partially understand your own mind. Yes, okay, so

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Speaker 1: looking in the phenomenology of of these music thrills of freeesan. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: this is one of those areas where there is a

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Speaker 1: bunch of existing research at this point, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of it is focused on related but slightly different questions,

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Speaker 1: which is just always a mess to wade through, so

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Speaker 1: there will be there are different studies out there that

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Speaker 1: sort of use different terminology to describe the feelings. Clearly,

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Speaker 1: these feelings overlap a lot. Sometimes they include or isolate

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Speaker 1: different components of it. Uh. Some call it chills, some

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Speaker 1: call it thrills. Some consider goose bumps a necessary part

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Speaker 1: of freeesan, some don't. Some only look at goose bumps

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Speaker 1: and not these other sensations. So, unfortunately, when we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the research going forward, you're just going to have

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Speaker 1: to accept and keep in mind that what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about here is not a unified phenomenon with a consistent

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Speaker 1: definition across all these studies, but sort of a a

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Speaker 1: system of related phenomena with family resemblances that have been

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Speaker 1: approached from a bunch of different angles. But it's clear

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Speaker 1: that they're all at least somewhat related. They're all part

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Speaker 1: of this intense psychophysiological response to music. So what are

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Speaker 1: the actual descriptive characteristics of the freezon response. Well, I

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Speaker 1: was watching a twenty nineteen conference presentation by a researcher

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Speaker 1: working in the neuroscience of music. I'm going to refer

427
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: to several times throughout this episode, her name is Psyche Louis,

428
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: and she lays out some of the most common responses,

429
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 1: breaking down responses to music into categories of the sort

430
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 1: of abstract versus the visceral or somatic. Now, in the

431
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: abstract responses to music, you've got general strong emotions, You've

432
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 1: got the idea of feeling transported to another place or time.

433
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: You've got the feeling of all. You've got losing your

434
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: sense of time or where you are, or the avocation

435
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: of memories. But then on the other hand, you've got

436
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 1: these visceral and somatic responses to music. And these are

437
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: the responses in the body, the ones we're focused on today,

438
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: which are chills, goose bumps, lump in the throat, heart racing, crying, uh,

439
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: feeling in the pit of the stomach, and generally the

440
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: sort of pleasure bowl. Appraisal of these sensations in the body, Seth,

441
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: what do you think about the list of sensations in

442
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: the body? Does that ring true to you? Yeah? And um.

443
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: Since uh, looking into this more recently, I've actually been

444
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: paying more attention to what I personally experience, and I

445
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: did not realize that goose bumps were such a part

446
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: of my own personal frees on experience, but while listening

447
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: to so many frees on inducing tracks over the past

448
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: few days and then actually like looking at my body

449
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: and being like, oh, there they are, you know, there

450
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 1: there are my goose bumps, and UM, so yeah, I know,

451
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 1: I fully believe that to be true. And UM, here's

452
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 1: another thing that I believe is going to get a

453
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: bit anecdotal when it comes to who gets frees on

454
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 1: from music. And I apologize for how many times I'm

455
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: gonna say anecdotal, but this is a very anecdotal kind

456
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 1: of phenomenon. It's it's difficult to really hammer it down,

457
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: and um, depending upon the source. I've looked at a

458
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,159
Speaker 1: few A lot of people say about two thirds of

459
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: people experience free song, but I've seen it as low

460
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: as fifty five and as high as eighties six. So

461
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: that's a pretty broad spectrum for how many people they

462
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 1: believe to experience this. As to the reports of the

463
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: the inconsistency and uh in the reported prevalence of frees on,

464
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 1: you go out and survey people say, you know, hey,

465
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,919
Speaker 1: how many of you, um, on average, have these chills

466
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: and goose bumps and all these things? When you listen

467
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: to music, you're gonna get different answers, probably because the

468
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,879
Speaker 1: question is being asked in a different way or with

469
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: different criteria. So this is one of the problems with

470
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 1: the phenomenon not being consistently defined or measured. And plus,

471
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: self diagnosis is always a pretty tricky thing in general too,

472
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: with something so kind of ephemeral, And perhaps that is

473
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:50,360
Speaker 1: why some studies focused on physical reactions like goose bumps.

474
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: It's like, you can't lie if I see your goose bumps.

475
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: There they are and there they aren't. Yeah, but I

476
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 1: think it's clear that like more than half of people

477
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: have frees on Yeah, yeah, that that seems to be

478
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: the case for sure. And um, I can say this

479
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 1: so um again, for the podcast that I host, Record

480
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: Store Society, we have a discord channel. Um, if people

481
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: don't know what discord is, it's more or less a

482
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: message board that that people you know, go and it's

483
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 1: exclusively for people who listen to this podcast that I host.

484
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: And so therefore everyone on there is a big old

485
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: music nerd. Like that's just kind of like you wouldn't

486
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: go there if you weren't. So the other day, for

487
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: Zon got brought up because I actually heard this new

488
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: song um that I really enjoyed called Paranoia Party by

489
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: Francis Forever, and when I heard it, I absolutely got

490
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: tons of frison from it, like, um, there's a real

491
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: nice build, there's a big change from like quiet to loud.

492
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: There's a lot of patterns kind of breaking down and

493
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: then re emerging, a lot of these things that perhaps

494
00:27:50,760 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: influence frees on and um. So I posted it on

495
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: the discord channel for Record Store Society, going, oh man,

496
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 1: I get big time frees on for this, and a

497
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: couple of people were like, I had to google that word,

498
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,399
Speaker 1: but now that I know what you're talking about, me too.

499
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: And then someone else go like, oh, me too, and

500
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: someone else would say like, me too, And I have

501
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: to say that this is again, here's that word anecdotal,

502
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 1: entirely anecdotal. But like one of the people on this

503
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: message board for extreme music nerds, everybody was feeling It's

504
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: like there there wasn't anybody who did not know what

505
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: the feeling and sensation of freeson was. So it says

506
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: something about attention and it's that chicken or egg thing again.

507
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: I believe also at least one study I was looking

508
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 1: at found that people tend to find familiar music more

509
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 1: likely to cause frees on. Yeah, I can. I can

510
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 1: definitely see that in particular with that song I was

511
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 1: just talking about the first time I heard it, certain

512
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: things things would make a hit for me. For example,

513
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 1: a sudden change in volume, because that's something that is

514
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: going to hit me no matter what. I don't need

515
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: any prior knowledge. Just volume is volume. But then the

516
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: second time I listened to that same song, the anticipation

517
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: that I knew that the volume change was coming that

518
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: hit me in a different way too, And I felt

519
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 1: it from the anticipation as well. So yeah, yeah, I

520
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: believe that as well, that that the a familiar song

521
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: can cause it for reasons other than just purely um,

522
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: what's there. It's not just about anticipatory chills, yes, chill

523
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: chills and feelings of free song leading up to the

524
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: moment of sort of the peak of that you're you're anticipating, right, yes,

525
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: roller coaster, yes, yeah, But I feel like what we

526
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:49,480
Speaker 1: were just saying would sort of go along with it

527
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: with the study that I was looking at. Seth, I

528
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: think I actually dug this up because you you found

529
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: an article a popular level article by one of the

530
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: authors of this study, So this was by Mitchell C.

531
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 1: Culver and Amani L. Lay published in the Journal Psychology

532
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: of Music in two sixteen called Getting Aesthetic Chills from

533
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: Music The connection between Openness to Experience and freesan. So

534
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: this is another entry in the the who gets freesan

535
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: from music? Question? So this study compared people's reports of

536
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: their feelings of freesan and music with physiological responses like

537
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: measuring things like skin conductance responses, and a personality typology

538
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,959
Speaker 1: test that was based on the five factor model. Now,

539
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: if you're not familiar that, the five factor model is

540
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: a way of sort of classifying people's personalities according to

541
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: five different metrics, so you know, you can sort of

542
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: get an idea of many things about a person and

543
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:50,719
Speaker 1: what kinds of preferences they might have, what kinds of

544
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: behaviors they might show if you know their scores on

545
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: five different measures, and these measures would be conscientiousness, agreeableness,

546
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 1: near otisism, extroversion, and openness. So listeners who experienced free

547
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 1: songs tended on average to be higher in the trade

548
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: openness it's also known as openness to experience. I was

549
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: looking for a good, uh succinct definition of openness to experience.

550
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: This one comes from the Encyclopedia of Applied Psychology by

551
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: McRae in two thousand four, and it identifies that the

552
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: relevant traits of openness to experience our tolerance of ambiguity,

553
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: low dogmatism, need for variety, esthetic sensitivity, absorption, unconventionality, intellectual curiosity,

554
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: and intuition. So people who are high in the trade

555
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: openness tend to be more interested in and tend to

556
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: prefer difference, variety, and novelty, whereas people who are lower

557
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,840
Speaker 1: in trade openness tend to prefer what's familiar and traditional. Wow,

558
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 1: it's interesting. So in a write up feature about this research,

559
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: one of the authors, Mitchell C. Culver, wrote, quote, while

560
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: previous research had connected openness to experience with freesan, most

561
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: researchers had concluded that listeners were experiencing freesan as a

562
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: result of a deeply emotional reaction they were having to

563
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 1: the music. So right, the idea would have been maybe

564
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: people who are higher and openness to experience are just

565
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 1: more likely to have deep emotional connections with music. But

566
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: uh Culver goes on to say, in contrast, the results

567
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 1: of our studies show that it's the cognitive components of

568
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: openness to experience, such as making mental predictions about how

569
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 1: the music is going to unfold, or engaging in musical imagery,

570
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 1: which is a way of processing music that combines listening

571
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: with daydreaming, that are associated with freesan to a greater

572
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: degree than the emotional components. In a whole bunch of

573
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: kind of conflicting information that we are receiving and kind

574
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: of like experiencing with this whole thing. That's one of

575
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: the biggest ones to me is that lie the emotional

576
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: experience of openness based on the cognitive components of openness,

577
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like that that that's that's

578
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 1: that's a head scratcher, that that's It makes sense to

579
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: me in a way. But again, we're talking about the

580
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: emotion plus the intellect in a very strange way. Yeah, exactly. So,

581
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: So it's possible that their their findings are incorrect, But

582
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: if Culver and Ela lately are correct, what they're saying

583
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: is that people who are high in the trade openness

584
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: are perhaps not getting more freaes on experiences because they're

585
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: more emotional, but because they tend to engage in more

586
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: pattern recognition and prediction behavior when listening to music, that

587
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: they're more likely to be engaging with the piece of

588
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: music in a way that seeks out patterns in the

589
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: structure of the song and tries to predict what's coming next,

590
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: And that that activity is more highly associated with these

591
00:33:56,920 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: extremely powerful psychophysiological experience arians is more so than the

592
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: than the emotional components. And I think that's interesting for sure. Yeah,

593
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: and and and at least in my own experience, I

594
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: can definitely feel that to be true if I look

595
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: at the songs that give me free SAN patterns and

596
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: then a subversion of a pattern or a almost like

597
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: doubling down on a pattern, like like either way can

598
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: really do it. But but but really am some sort

599
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: of accent upon a pattern? Whichever path you want to

600
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: take on that this will come back. A major theme

601
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,439
Speaker 1: in the research about the underlying mechanisms of freesan has

602
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: to do with patterns and prediction and UH and anticipation.

603
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 1: But anyway, to move on to other things. So that

604
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,479
Speaker 1: that was that people who are higher in the trade

605
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 1: openness tend to report more freesans UH. There is another

606
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: There is apparently a social component. I was reading a

607
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: note that a researcher named Alf Gabrielsson in two thousand twelve,

608
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: in a work called Strong Experiences with Music, reported that

609
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 1: people who listen to music together with a friend partner

610
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:04,520
Speaker 1: experience more activation of the autonomic nervous system, which is

611
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 1: associated with these these reactions in the body. The autonomic

612
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,240
Speaker 1: nervous system is UH is the part of the nervous

613
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 1: system that controls things that are that are involuntary in

614
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 1: your body, such as maintaining of course, you know, heart

615
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: rate and digestion and breathing and all that, but also

616
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: homeostatic responses, responses to changes in temperature, and the fight

617
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: or flight response, which is specifically a subset of the

618
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,279
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system known as the sympathetic nervous system, and

619
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,360
Speaker 1: the sympathetic nervous system appears to often be activated in

620
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: these frees on experiences. So some things going on in

621
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: the body where a musical free san has something in

622
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: common with the fight or flight response, which is very

623
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: interesting and we'll get more into that later on. Thank Now,

624
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 1: another way to approach this question of who gets musical

625
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: free so on um is can we learn anything by

626
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 1: identifying what people have in common when they don't experience

627
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: musical frees on. Uh So, Again, I mentioned earlier that

628
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: presentation I was watching by the researchers Psyche Louis uh

629
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: and she was talking about studies that have been done

630
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 1: with people who have what's called musical and hedonia, and

631
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: this is a condition where people just do not really

632
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: derive pleasure from music. Now, it's important to specify what

633
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 1: musical and hedonia is not. It's different from what's known

634
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: as a musica or tone deafness. People with musical and

635
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 1: hadonia do not show major errors in their perception of music.

636
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: They can hear it just fine. And it's different from

637
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: general and hedonia. So people with musical and hedonia can

638
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: derive pleasure from other things. It's not a generalized lack

639
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: of pleasure. It's just a lack of pleasure from music.

640
00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: And one thing Louis talks about is research that has

641
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: found that people with musical and hadonia have different patterns

642
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: of connectivity between the auditory regions of the brain and

643
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: a region of the brain known as the nucleus incumbents.

644
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: Uh So, the nucleus accumbens is important in the reward system.

645
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 1: It is used to drive motivation for the anticipation of rewards,

646
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: including things like food, sex, money, and drugs. Basically, like

647
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: anything you can think of that would be, you know,

648
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: kind of pleasurable stimulus that would really motivate you to

649
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: want to get more of it. That motivation to get

650
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: more of it is mediated by the reward system in

651
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: the brain, including the nucleus accumbans. This might be also

652
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: very unscientific for me to say, but all those things

653
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: also seem to have um elements of um anticipation and dopamine.

654
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,280
Speaker 1: Oh yes, exactly. So the thrill you get in anticipation

655
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: of one of these things, food, sex, money, drugs, any

656
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: of these these things, Uh, the thrill you get in

657
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: the brain while you're in pursuit of that goal is

658
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: very much related. That is the reward system working to

659
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 1: motivate your behavior. Now, another interesting thing about who gets

660
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: musical freesans. I was reading a about a study by

661
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: the Estonian neuroscientist Yak punk Sep, who found in research

662
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 1: in nineteen in the journal Music Perception that at least

663
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: in his study that women reported experiencing chills from music

664
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 1: somewhat more more often than men did, though obviously, people

665
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: of all genders get the chills. It found that it

666
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: was a little bit more common in women. And also

667
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 1: there was an interesting observation from punk sep study which

668
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: was this quote, many mistakenly believe that happiness in music

669
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: is more influential in evoking the response than sadness. A

670
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: series of correlational studies analyzing the subjective experience of chills

671
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: in groups of students listening to a variety of musical

672
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 1: pieces indicated that chills are related to the perceived emotional

673
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:57,240
Speaker 1: content of various selections, with much stronger relations to perceived

674
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: sadness than happiness. So, according to poccepts research here, sad

675
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: music is more likely to cause free songs in reality,

676
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,879
Speaker 1: but when people are just sort of asked to speculate,

677
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 1: they tend to believe that happy music causes it more.

678
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,439
Speaker 1: Isn't that fascinating? And it makes me wonder like, could

679
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: this be related to confusion in reflecting on your own

680
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: experiences of free song Because maybe even though it actually

681
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,840
Speaker 1: happens to you more often with negative valenced esthetic content,

682
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: you know, sad music, sad movies, the experience itself is

683
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: somehow pleasurable, So maybe you mistakenly believe it to be

684
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,759
Speaker 1: caused by more positive valenced content in your memory. At

685
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: least I don't know that that's the the causal chain there,

686
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: but that that mistake that people make is interesting. Yeah,

687
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: it definitely could be some sort of confirmation bias, um,

688
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: because even now when you said that, I thought to myself, Okay,

689
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: what are all the examples I'm thinking of? They are

690
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: one percent happy songs, I I And I think part

691
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 1: of it, at least for me, is there's perhaps something

692
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: triumphant in a lot of the songs that creates the

693
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: free song feeling in me. Um, maybe a bit bombastic.

694
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm not going to apologize that I get tons of

695
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: free song from limbs Rob, but you know, when when

696
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: when do you hear the people sing? Comes on? I

697
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 1: I get that feeling all over And there is something

698
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 1: that is triumphant about that song. But there's a there,

699
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: there's a subtlety to it, or there's an ambiguity to

700
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: it because the song and its lyrical content and even

701
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: something about the way it sounds implies a kind of

702
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: risk or threat. Does that make sense? It does? And

703
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,919
Speaker 1: and and perhaps that kind of duality is just part

704
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: of music. In general, Like I was thinking about that

705
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: Beatles song. Um, it's like, I've got to believe it's

706
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: getting better, It's getting better all the time. And then

707
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: you hear John Lennon say it couldn't get much worse.

708
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: Were like, it seems like a very positive song unless

709
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: you pay attention, and it's like, oh no, no, this

710
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: is a very sad song that is hopeful perhaps, and

711
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: perhaps that that that dichotomy. It's just a part of

712
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 1: music in general, which which needs to be factored in

713
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: as well. Huh so do you yes for me? Do

714
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: you hear the people sing? It is sort of triumphant sounding,

715
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: but in its lyrical content it is a demonstration of

716
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: courage in the face of near certain death. Right Wow, yeah,

717
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: fascinating fascinating stuff anyway, So ready to move on to

718
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: maybe the next question, which is what triggers freesan and music, like,

719
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: what are the specific auditory triggers that bring it about

720
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: most often? Again, this is something where there's probably going

721
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 1: to be a lot of idiosyncrasy in people's responses, but

722
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 1: there are certain things that do tend to emerge as

723
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: as like the most common triggers. And here I'm going

724
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: to be referring to I can't remember if I already

725
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: said the name of this paper. I think I didn't.

726
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: But this is a paper that is a a review

727
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 1: of the of the existing research on frees on asen

728
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: by Luke Harrison and Psyche Louis who already mean. And

729
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: it's called Thrills, Chills, freesans and skin Orgasms Towards an

730
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: Integrative Model of Transcendence Psychophysiological Experiences in Music. And this

731
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: is published in Frontiers in Psychology, and they collect some

732
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: of the existing research on musical frees on inducers. One

733
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 1: big study that looked into this was slow Boda in

734
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: and this one found that the common types of musical

735
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: phrases that bring people to a state of freesan were quote,

736
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 1: chord progressions descending the circle of fifths to the tonic.

737
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: Very specific. Uh, then melodic appoggiaturas. So appoggiaturas are when

738
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: there is a grace note or grace notes added to

739
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,879
Speaker 1: a melody before or between the expected notes. I feel

740
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: like it's kind of hard to explain without singing it.

741
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: I kind of don't want to sing it because that

742
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 1: would sound pathetic, But I know what you mean. It's

743
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: that quick anticipatory note right before the actual kickoff of

744
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: the chorus or the verse or the bra or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

745
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: So if you can imagine a familiar melody, say, imagine

746
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,919
Speaker 1: somebody singing the melody of of London Bridge is falling down,

747
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: but adding in little grace notes in between the familiar

748
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: notes of the melody. Does that make sense? It does

749
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: to me, but does it make sense to our listener?

750
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: But then also the onset of unexpected harmonies, This is

751
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: a huge one for me. A lot of the ones

752
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: that I can think of are when or when harmonies

753
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: come in, when vocal when new vocals are added. Yeah. Uh.

754
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: And then they also say and melodic or harmonic sequences,

755
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: which seems very unspecific to me. Is I'm not sure

756
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 1: what to make of that. But they also cite another

757
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,440
Speaker 1: study by Grua at all or Greva at all in

758
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,320
Speaker 1: two thousand seven that found um that the onsets of

759
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: freees on were quote most likely to occur during peaks

760
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: in loudness, moments of modulation, and works in which the

761
00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: melody occupied the human vocal register. Uh, And that sounds

762
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: right to me. A big thing is changes in volume,

763
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: dynamic changes, sudden dynamic leaps where you go from UH,

764
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: where you go from soft to suddenly loud, or from

765
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: loud to suddenly soft. Those have been shown to elicit

766
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: freesan um. But then also sudden changes in say the

767
00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: register when you jump up an octave or something like that.

768
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: And they point out that these uh, these triggers tend

769
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: to point in the direction of frees on having something

770
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: to do with expectancy violation, because almost all of the

771
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: things that have been identified as major triggers of freesan

772
00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 1: are when a song has established a pattern and then

773
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 1: the pattern suddenly changes in some way. That all makes

774
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: sense now, I guess it's time to move on to

775
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 1: the question of why does this happen? This is really

776
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: the big puzzle, right. So, you've got something that's just

777
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: a song. It is you know, music, It is vibrating

778
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: air molecules that are stimulating your ears. It's sound that

779
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: occurs in a certain pattern or or or cycle of

780
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: tones and rhythmic pulses, and somehow that means something to you.

781
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: And it not only means something to you, it triggers

782
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: this powerful response that seems to involve uh, the emotions

783
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 1: and and pleasure seeking and and the full body, and

784
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: and maybe something having to do with the autonomic nervous

785
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: system kind of like a fight or flight response would.

786
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: So it's this big mess that's obviously really complicated. So

787
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: one of the things that I thought might be helpful

788
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: to start by looking at is one specific subset of

789
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 1: musical free so on, which is the experience of goose bumps.

790
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: So it's actually, I think, at root, a fascinating question

791
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: in itself. Why would human beings get goose bumps from

792
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: esthetic reactions to art and music? You know, this is

793
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:53,280
Speaker 1: a biological response that it's at least at first glance,

794
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,879
Speaker 1: hard to identify a cause and effect relationship for right, Yeah,

795
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't make much sense intellectually. Yeah. Uh So when

796
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: you get goose bumps, the technical term for what's happening

797
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: here is pilo erection. It's also sometimes known as the

798
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: pilo motor reflex um. And what's going on in your

799
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 1: body when you get goose bumps is that in your

800
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: skin at the base of your body hairs, there are

801
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 1: these little muscles known as erector pilli and when these

802
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: muscles contract, it causes your hairs, which are normally relaxed

803
00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: and lying flat to suddenly stand on end. It's sort

804
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 1: of like pulls them down tight and they stand straight up,

805
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: And the question would be why does the body do this? Well,

806
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 1: there are a couple of major explanations that are correlated

807
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: with what normally causes goose bumps or or similar reactions

808
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: in animals, especially animals with more hair than us. One

809
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: answer is the cold. When you are cold, your body

810
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: is losing heat through the skin, and the pilo erection

811
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: response is an evolutionary adaptation that helps protect the body

812
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 1: against heat loss by insulating the skin. So your body

813
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: detects a hill and it protects itself by contracting the

814
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: erector pilly, causing the body hair to stand up. This

815
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: obviously would have been much more useful to human ancestors

816
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: who had significantly more body hair than we do. It

817
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: does a lot less to help insulate our relatively unhaired

818
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: bodies today, but it seems to be a somewhat vestigial trade.

819
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 1: Like when we get cold, we still get the goose bumps,

820
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: as if we had a big coat of fur to

821
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: help insulate us when when our skin did that. But

822
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: it's not just when we get cold. There are also

823
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: threats of danger that caused the polo motor response. So

824
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: the body deploys the same reflex, the same pilo erection

825
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: in response to sudden shocks or fear or threats of danger,

826
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 1: and the evolutionary reasoning is that this provides a survival

827
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: advantage because pilo erection makes the body look bigger. So

828
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 1: you've probably seen a cat that gets spooked by some

829
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: kind of possible threat, maybe an aggressive dog, or maybe

830
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: just a cucumber on the floor or whatever. It seems

831
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 1: to detect the possibility that some other kind of animal

832
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,160
Speaker 1: is they're threatening it, and its first stands up on end.

833
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: Now the cat looks thicker, larger, it looks more dangerous

834
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: and able to defend itself, which means that this other

835
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: animal or or pseudo animal is less likely to attack.

836
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: And these explanations for the pilo motor reflex have been

837
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: known about for a long time. Actually. Charles Darwin wrote

838
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: about these reactions and goose bumps in his book The

839
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals in eighteen

840
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 1: seventy two, where he wrote that quote hardly any expressive

841
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 1: movement is so general as the involuntary erection of the

842
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: hair's feathers and other dermal appendages, and he noted correlates

843
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 1: of these in in not just mammals, but in mammals

844
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 1: and in birds and in reptiles, which I thought is interesting.

845
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 1: So the evolutionary reasoning connecting goose bumps to a survival

846
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: advantage in the in the case of cold or threats

847
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: makes very solid sense. But why would this connect to

848
00:48:55,719 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: abstract emotions or to esthetics like music? So I was

849
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: looking around for good explanations of this. One thing I

850
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 1: came across was an explainer I found in Scientific American

851
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: from two thousand three by a physiologist and professor of

852
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: zoology at the University of Gulf in Ontario named George A.

853
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 1: Boubin Ick, who said that basically all goose bumps responses

854
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: involve the release of adrenaline and the activation of the

855
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system like we were talking about earlier and

856
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: uh Bubinic writes quote. Adrenaline, which in humans is produced

857
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: in two small bean like glands that sit atop the kidneys,

858
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: not only causes the contraction of skin muscles, but also

859
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: influences many other body reactions. In humans, adrenaline is often

860
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: released when we feel cold or afraid, but also if

861
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: you're under stress and feel strong emotions such as anger

862
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 1: or excitement. Other signs of adrenaline release include tears, sweaty palms,

863
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: trembling hands, and increase in blood pressure, a racing heart,

864
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 1: or the feeling of butterflies in the stomach. Uh So,

865
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 1: that's a little frustrating because it establishes the possible mechanism

866
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,800
Speaker 1: in the endocrin or nervous system that may be partially

867
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,839
Speaker 1: correct for explaining the mechanism in these cases, but you're

868
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 1: still kind of left wondering why, right rights? And also, well,

869
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 1: it's been brought up before this connection to fight or flight,

870
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: but the why has not been explained at all. Uh

871
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 1: So I'll try another one here. So this one, I'm

872
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: not sure how good of an explanation this is, but

873
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 1: at least I found it very interesting. So this is

874
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: what's known as the separation call hypothesis. This is another

875
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: evolutionary explanation for emotional chills. And this one goes back

876
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,760
Speaker 1: to somebody I mentioned earlier in the episode, the Estonian

877
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: neuroscientist Yak punk Sepp, who he's known for creating the

878
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: note the term affective neuroscience the neuroscience of emotions and

879
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: uh punk sceps hypothesis. I found a good summary of

880
00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 1: it in another paper that was by Benetic and Karen

881
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: Back in Biological Psychology in two thousand eleven, so I'm

882
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: going to read their summary of of punk steps view.

883
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 1: He argues that the separation calls of lost young animals

884
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 1: used to inform parents about the whereabouts of their offspring.

885
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: These calls might have induced internal feelings of coldness and chills,

886
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: which enhanced the motivation for social reunion. A preserved responsivity

887
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: to certain acoustical features e g. Sustained high frequency notes

888
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 1: as often presented by solo performers, may represent an unconditional

889
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 1: component of the chill response. This theoretical approach, which could

890
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: be termed separation call hypothesis, thus relates pylo erection to

891
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 1: sensations of coldness and sadness. Uh So, this is interesting.

892
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,239
Speaker 1: I'm kind of skeptical that this explains everything that's going on,

893
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: but it does touch on multiple features in a way

894
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 1: that would make some kind of causal sense in an

895
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: evolutionary perspective. So the idea is that Okay, you separate

896
00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: baby rats from their mother, and the baby rats get

897
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 1: cold and they squeak at a particular frequency that triggers

898
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: the parent rat to locate them quickly, so the process

899
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 1: would go. The baby is alone, feels temperature decrease, the

900
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: baby releases a separation call. This causes a feeling of separation,

901
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,880
Speaker 1: a feeling of loss or a kind of correlate of

902
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,320
Speaker 1: sadness in the human context, and a feeling of physical coldness, chills,

903
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: or even goose bumps in the mother, motivating rapid reunion

904
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: and contact with the baby rat. So punk Step was

905
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: arguing that maybe these emotional goose bumps we feel in

906
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: in response to music have a deep biological root in

907
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: this mammalian separation call and and the response that we

908
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: would feel in in in reaction to hearing it, perhaps

909
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 1: some sort of like evolutionary left over kind of a thing. Right, So,

910
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 1: you have certain types of sounds or thought patterns triggering

911
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: this feeling of being moved, which which would simultaneously cause

912
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 1: a feeling of almost like physical coldness, the chilling, feeling

913
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: goose bumps, and a feeling of separation, and a motivation

914
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 1: to re establish social contact, which in itself would be

915
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: a a sort of a reward motivation where you've got

916
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: a goal now, and you're like, I need to get this.

917
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: I mean, um, if true, that's absolutely amazing everything that

918
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: could come from a simple like evolutionary leftover instinct. You know.

919
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 1: I think about the entire music industry coming from just

920
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: this leftover response that has kind of like almost um

921
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: almost pointed usn't the wrong direction, but we get so

922
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: much pleasure out of it anyway. Yeah, And I think

923
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 1: this may have something to it, and I've read that

924
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: there are some subsequent studies that kind of lent support

925
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,839
Speaker 1: to it, at least in some cases. But it also

926
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: seems hard for me to imagine that this is the

927
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: direct route of all emotional chills. Uh. I mean, maybe

928
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: maybe this kind of causation is wrapped up in there somewhere,

929
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 1: But I'm still thinking about their ideas. So one of

930
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 1: the other ideas comes back to something that we we've

931
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: mentioned a few times now, which is about patterns and predictions. Now,

932
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: earlier I mentioned this conference presentation I watched by Psyche Louis,

933
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,399
Speaker 1: the the musical neuroscience researcher. It was at the Brain

934
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 1: Mind Summit in m I. T And twenty nineteen, and uh,

935
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 1: and she talks about this hypothesis and in her presentation,

936
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: so she says that a lot of our response to

937
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: music has to do with fulfillments and violations of expectations.

938
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: So you think about what's your what's your actual experience

939
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: of listening to music? What is your brain doing when

940
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: you're paying attention to the music you're listening to. I

941
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: think it's that music establishes patterns. You know, phrases are repeated,

942
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 1: chord progressions, cycle, and often symmetrical ways. Popular music, of course,

943
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,800
Speaker 1: has the very common verse chorus verse structure. Uh. And

944
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: though there are other types of music, like jazz and

945
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: classical music that are less repet titious and have less

946
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: to do with established patterns, they still do establish some patterns.

947
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 1: You can feel out the grammar of a classical symphony

948
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 1: or or a jazz improvisation, even though they might be

949
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: less repetitive than some familiar types of pop and rock music, right, Like,

950
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: maybe there's just a theme that repeats, or perhaps it

951
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: just being played in the same key. You go, Oh,

952
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:24,880
Speaker 1: I can kind of predict where this is going to

953
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: go based simply on like instinctual knowledge of like, you know,

954
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: different chord progressions and different different um scales. That kind

955
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 1: of thing. So, Yeah, a piece of music has a

956
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 1: kind of implied grammar or syntax as kind of rules

957
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 1: that you can learn and then you use that to

958
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,319
Speaker 1: predict how it's going to develop from the present moment.

959
00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 1: And so she talks about how this feeling of being

960
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,320
Speaker 1: able to predict what's coming next usually is something that

961
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: we find rewarding in the brain, like in the actual

962
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:58,359
Speaker 1: reward system. Uh, the ability to say, hey, I think

963
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: I know what's going to happen next, and then anticipating

964
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 1: and then trying to see if your prediction is correct.

965
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,759
Speaker 1: That is a reward motivation process in that part of

966
00:56:07,840 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: the brain. And this actually comes back to something I

967
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: think we already mentioned a little bit earlier in the episode.

968
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: But the research finding um that people who get chills

969
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: from music versus people who don't get chills from music,

970
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: there are differences in the amount of fiber connecting different

971
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,720
Speaker 1: parts of the brain. In this case, it's the amount

972
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:30,600
Speaker 1: of white matter connecting regions of the auditory system where

973
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:34,720
Speaker 1: you would be processing incoming sounds. Um in the temporal lobe,

974
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 1: two regions of the frontal lobe that Luis says are

975
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: important for emotion and reward again, specifically the nucleus incumbents

976
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: and the medial prefrontal cortex. And so this comes back

977
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,880
Speaker 1: to the dopaminergic reward system. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that

978
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,680
Speaker 1: I think is sometimes a bit mischaracterized as being synonymous

979
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: with the feeling of pleasure, which is slightly off because

980
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: the dopaminergic reward system is not just response bole for

981
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: feeling good after getting what you want, but for managing

982
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,880
Speaker 1: the salience of incentives, managing your awareness of things in

983
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: your environment that you might want and your motivation to

984
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: get them. So dopamine increases in the brain in anticipation

985
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 1: of receiving a reward, and it plays a role in

986
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: motivating you to repeat a behavior that caused you to

987
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:26,080
Speaker 1: get a reward in the past. So in our ancestral environment,

988
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 1: these rewards would be things that provided a survival reproduction advantage,

989
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 1: so food, water, sexual partners, but also things like parental care.

990
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: But our reward systems can also become motivated by rewards

991
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 1: that are at a sort of abstract remove, like money,

992
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 1: or perhaps things like enjoyable art and music, or even

993
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 1: by substances that stimulate the reward pathways chemically like opiates

994
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 1: or cocaine. But from some of the neuroscience research, it

995
00:57:54,200 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 1: looks like when we have these intensely pleasurable psycho physiological

996
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: responses to music, something is going on with the reward

997
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: pathway that has to do with predictions that pleasure in

998
00:58:06,240 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 1: music somehow has something to do with the listener recognizing

999
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: patterns and the reward seeking mechanisms in the brain being

1000
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 1: motivated to detect and predict those patterns. This makes me

1001
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: want to speculate, but I will not. I don't know,

1002
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: go right ahead. My my speculation is this, um. I

1003
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: remember basically reaching a certain age where you think to yourself, uh, gosh,

1004
00:58:31,720 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: I hate school. Schools annoying, gosh, school what what a drag?

1005
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 1: And then someone wiser will tell you, you know, school

1006
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: isn't actually about the lessons. It's not about the homework.

1007
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: School is about learning how to learn. It's about learning

1008
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 1: how it to be intellectually curious enough that in the future,

1009
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: when you do want to know something, you can teach

1010
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 1: yourself how to know it because you've learned how to learn.

1011
00:58:56,520 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: And in my mind, I'm thinking about how music is

1012
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:06,160
Speaker 1: kind of instilling this desire for pattern recognition, which personally

1013
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 1: I do think benefits life, and I do think benefits

1014
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 1: um oh, problem solving and benefits you know, making a

1015
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 1: grocery list everything, You know what I mean, Like, patterns

1016
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,080
Speaker 1: are extremely useful in our society, So it's it's um

1017
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,280
Speaker 1: Perhaps it is an evolutionary leftover that makes us enjoy music,

1018
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: but perhaps it has stayed with us because it has

1019
00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: proven to be useful in the regard of like it's

1020
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,960
Speaker 1: teaching us, it's improving us, it's making our brains a

1021
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: little a little more fits because it's almost like we're

1022
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: having a little training session by listening to music, by

1023
00:59:40,280 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: enjoying art, by enjoying culture, and that makes everything else

1024
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,439
Speaker 1: in our lives a little bit better and a little

1025
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 1: bit easier. So like music is teaching us how to

1026
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:56,200
Speaker 1: learn in a way pure speculation, Well, I definitely think

1027
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: there could be something to that, but I would also

1028
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 1: come back at it from the their angle, because it's

1029
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: clearly not as simple as music sets up a pattern

1030
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 1: that you can predict, and then when you correctly predict

1031
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:14,200
Speaker 1: the pattern, it's pleasurable. Because if if music is too predictable,

1032
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:19,080
Speaker 1: it becomes boring, right, And this goes sort of it,

1033
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: at least on the face of it, seemed to go

1034
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:23,960
Speaker 1: against something we were talking about earlier, which is that

1035
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 1: a lot of these peak experiences free sun come precisely

1036
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 1: when patterns are broken or violated. It's not when it's

1037
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: the most predictable and you're the easiest to get the

1038
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 1: pattern recognition right. It's when something changes unexpectedly that you

1039
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: feel the tingles all over. But at least for me,

1040
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: that's the learning aspect of it. Um to to throw

1041
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: something in that, perhaps Robert would say if Robert were here, Um,

1042
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: there's a thing with meditation where, um, you know, if

1043
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: you're trying to clear your mind and you're trying not

1044
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 1: to think about anything, and then you accidentally think about

1045
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: a slice of strawberry cheesecake, you know that's bad in

1046
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: the regard that you're trying to think of nothing. However,

1047
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: the active energy you take during most kinds of meditation

1048
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 1: to clear your mind again, to go okay, get out

1049
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: of my mind, strawberry cheesecake, I'm trying to think about nothing.

1050
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: That is akin to like doing a rep. It's like

1051
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: a kin to like doing something active to make you better.

1052
01:01:21,720 --> 01:01:27,600
Speaker 1: So perhaps the subversion of patterns that we recognize our

1053
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 1: brain does hit the little food pellet switch and go,

1054
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,919
Speaker 1: good job, you noticed, you know, aren't you a smart

1055
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: little person? Keep up, keep it up. You know you're learning.

1056
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 1: You're you're you're you're being um, You're being someone trained

1057
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: to understand patterns when they change, and perhaps to pay

1058
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: extra attention to when they do change, because that's perhaps

1059
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: when life is at its most dangerous, is when the

1060
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: when the patterns are subverted, not when the patterns are

1061
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: the same. Well, that actually ties into something else I

1062
01:01:56,680 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: came across. So I mentioned earlier that I watched that

1063
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,760
Speaker 1: video that was an interview with a music neuroscientists named

1064
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: Matt Sachs and uh Sacks had speculated, Now this is

1065
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 1: actually going more back back in a previous uh possible

1066
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,400
Speaker 1: explanation that we were talking about for the neurobiological mechanisms

1067
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: of pleasure and freees on. But when when you go

1068
01:02:17,560 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: to the idea of the arousal of the autonomic nervous system,

1069
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: you know, the fight or flight response, uh and and

1070
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: getting goose bumps as a result of a of cold

1071
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: or being under threat, Sacks is talking about the pleasurable

1072
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 1: response to music in those terms maybe getting goose bumps

1073
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 1: is like a threat, and he speculates, I'm not sure

1074
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:38,480
Speaker 1: how much research there is to back this up, but

1075
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: he speculates, and maybe sometimes high pitched notes or sudden

1076
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: dynamic changes in music are actually initially reacted to by

1077
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,520
Speaker 1: the body as a kind of threat. And it's like,

1078
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: you know, when you detect a loud sound, what does

1079
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 1: that usually mean? It usually means like there's something you

1080
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,360
Speaker 1: need to pay attention to because it's possibly dangerous. But

1081
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: then he specula lates that after the startling sounds such

1082
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 1: as the dynamic change in the music or the sudden

1083
01:03:04,760 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: high voice or something, is rationalized by the prefrontal cortex

1084
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 1: and judged actually safe, that's when the sense of pleasure comes.

1085
01:03:12,880 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 1: It's in the realization that your your brain has sort

1086
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 1: of been startled into a semi fight or flight response

1087
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 1: by something in the sound, but actually it's just a

1088
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,360
Speaker 1: piece of music. And it's like realizing that the threat

1089
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 1: in a horror movie is not actually dangerous. I was

1090
01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: just thinking the same thing, like like a horror movie,

1091
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:33,720
Speaker 1: like a roller coaster, it's um a safe exploration of

1092
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: fear and anticipation is definitely a big part of that,

1093
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 1: I mean, think about any jump scare in a horror film.

1094
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:48,560
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, interesting? Thank But anyway to come back

1095
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:51,240
Speaker 1: to Harrison and Louis in their summary of of a

1096
01:03:51,280 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: study from two thousand one by Blood and Store, Uh,

1097
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 1: they write that these researchers quote showed with pet scanning

1098
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 1: of people under musical esan that patterns may reflect a

1099
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,880
Speaker 1: craving reflex similar to that surrounding responses for food, sex,

1100
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,120
Speaker 1: and drugs of abuse. It's possible, then, that the reason

1101
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 1: we develop such affinity for freesan inducing music is that

1102
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: once we experience musical freesan, we develop a dopaminergic anticipation

1103
01:04:20,240 --> 01:04:25,520
Speaker 1: for its return, effectively becoming slightly addicted to the musical stimulus.

1104
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's an analogy I've made before when it

1105
01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: comes to um seeking out new music, that it is

1106
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 1: similar to a drug and being a person who is

1107
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: very much a teetotaler in every way, I do not

1108
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: want to diminish people's actual addictions to real drugs, but

1109
01:04:42,880 --> 01:04:46,280
Speaker 1: following the same patterns, uh yeah, of just like, oh,

1110
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: I I think I can find a another album, Like

1111
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:50,600
Speaker 1: I haven't heard a new album that really got me

1112
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,400
Speaker 1: excited lately. I gotta I gotta go to go down

1113
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:54,479
Speaker 1: to the record store. I need to go find something else.

1114
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: I gotta go dig through some crates. And it's just

1115
01:04:56,600 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 1: sort of like that feeling of there's something out there,

1116
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: there's something out there that's really good and you haven't

1117
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 1: heard it yet, so you need to go get it.

1118
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: You need to go find it, you need to talk

1119
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: to people and uh and those are the things you

1120
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 1: can do on record store society, find it wherever you

1121
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 1: find podcasts. Do do you when you're seeking out new

1122
01:05:17,120 --> 01:05:20,400
Speaker 1: music do you actually have like the these direct pleasurable

1123
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: experiences in mind is like sort of the thing you're

1124
01:05:23,160 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 1: questing after, Because while I do love them in music,

1125
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 1: I remember when I was more obsessed with like finding

1126
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:34,120
Speaker 1: new music, I had a probably a stupider idea in

1127
01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 1: my head which was like, once I hear this album,

1128
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 1: then finally I'll understand music. Do you know what I mean?

1129
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 1: I do? I definitely do. I I felt that also,

1130
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: um where in particular, if there were albums that everyone

1131
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: said were truly truly great, and I would go, oh, man,

1132
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna find this album. Let's say it's

1133
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 1: The Velvet Underground and Nico, you know, the famous one

1134
01:05:56,520 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 1: with the Andy warhol bin and on the cover. I

1135
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: um where I'm like, this is that album that everyone

1136
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,280
Speaker 1: keeps talking about. One day I'm going to find it.

1137
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna listen to it, and then I'll know what

1138
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: everyone's talking about, and I will have achieved something. It

1139
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 1: will be like a totem somehow that I have found

1140
01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: and listened to this album. Obviously, this is way before

1141
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 1: any kind of streaming media, so it was much more

1142
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 1: difficult to track down and purchase an album when I

1143
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: was a kid. Um. But but in that same regard,

1144
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 1: I would say, to answer your question about seeking it

1145
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: out and does that provide some sort of pleasure, I

1146
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:34,160
Speaker 1: do think that for me personally, the things I love

1147
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 1: most in music are um, progression, change, experimentation, people trying

1148
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: new things. I really love really experimental, really you know,

1149
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, odd music. I really

1150
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:51,040
Speaker 1: enjoy that. And not to say that I don't also

1151
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 1: enjoy you know, some some beatles as well. But um,

1152
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: but that being the case, I would not be surprised

1153
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: if deep down, subconsciously me perpetually seeking stranger music, seeking

1154
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 1: the experimental and the you know, the the the new

1155
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, is perhaps trying to

1156
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: find that thrill again, find that that that roller coaster,

1157
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:21,520
Speaker 1: find that um that that that that that jumps scared

1158
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 1: from that that scary movie. You know. Oh well, this

1159
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 1: is interesting because this connects to something else I was reading.

1160
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 1: So I was reading an interview with a researcher named

1161
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 1: Dr Ygan vassel of z Ki, who studies the science

1162
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 1: of the human response to art and aesthetics that I

1163
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: place called the Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics, and

1164
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:45,640
Speaker 1: he'd done some work on essentially people's frees on reactions

1165
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 1: not just to music, but to other genres of arts,

1166
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: such as poetry, because also people can get free on

1167
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 1: from poetry, and so he did a study on that.

1168
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: And one thing he noted this was in the context

1169
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 1: of poetry, but I think it's probably also true of music,

1170
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: is that he found that it experienced people need more

1171
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: complexity in order to be affected. So basically, the more

1172
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 1: experience you have with a genre of art, usually the

1173
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,120
Speaker 1: weirder you need it to be. That makes sense. No,

1174
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:17,639
Speaker 1: I've made this analogy myself where people have asked me, oh,

1175
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: why are you listening to that noise, like literally, you

1176
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,519
Speaker 1: know noise. There's a lot of noise albums that I

1177
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: very much enjoy, And I'm like, I think about it

1178
01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 1: like a foodie where there's a person out there who

1179
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:30,960
Speaker 1: you know, they love pasta and they eat their pasta

1180
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 1: and it's so good. But at a certain point, after

1181
01:08:33,520 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: they've really really focused and studied and had so much

1182
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,680
Speaker 1: pasta's coming out their ears, they're like, you know what,

1183
01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:42,280
Speaker 1: I think, like, I need to go to this like

1184
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,040
Speaker 1: gastro Microbiology center where they give me like a pasta

1185
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: foam and like a sniffter of basil liquefied that I

1186
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: inject in my arm. Like like I I do think

1187
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 1: that all art does eventually become stranger and stranger, and

1188
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: I think that goes for everything. I think that goes

1189
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:01,080
Speaker 1: for shoes. Sneaker heads will probably do the same thing,

1190
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:03,439
Speaker 1: same thing with them, people who are really into cars,

1191
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:07,599
Speaker 1: people who are really into um, I think everything, honestly,

1192
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:11,960
Speaker 1: I I do think all aesthetic appreciation eventually gets really

1193
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 1: strange because you're perhaps getting a little bored and you're

1194
01:09:15,280 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 1: looking for that new feeling again. Does that happen with everything?

1195
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:20,720
Speaker 1: So I wonder about cars. Like if you if you

1196
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: are somebody who's obsessed with cars, you go to all

1197
01:09:23,360 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 1: the auto shows and you read all the car blogs

1198
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 1: and all that. Eventually, are you like only interested in

1199
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 1: batmobiles and rocket powered cars and stuff or like, I

1200
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: don't know, I wonder about that. I think this will

1201
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 1: relate again to what we were looking at, um before,

1202
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:40,200
Speaker 1: with like the different kinds of brains, where there was

1203
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: the one kind of brain. Um that this is when

1204
01:09:42,200 --> 01:09:46,160
Speaker 1: you're talking about openness. How one was looking for the novel,

1205
01:09:46,400 --> 01:09:48,280
Speaker 1: looking for the new, and the other one was looking

1206
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 1: for the traditional, looking for the essential, you know. And

1207
01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: I really do feel like, perhaps let's let's take a

1208
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 1: car example. I think neither of us are car guys,

1209
01:09:57,120 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 1: but we will put ourselves in that world. There is

1210
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:03,920
Speaker 1: so one that goes no, my nineteen sixties Corvetts is

1211
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 1: the perfect car that I will love forever. And then

1212
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:09,519
Speaker 1: there's another person at the same car show who's looking

1213
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 1: at all the like the fancy like I don't even

1214
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: know what they're called, but like the like the prototype

1215
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,120
Speaker 1: cars that will never actually be made but always look

1216
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:22,360
Speaker 1: really really neat and futuristic and you know, blade runner esque. Um,

1217
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 1: they'll only drive one of those spike cars from Fury Road. Yes,

1218
01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,200
Speaker 1: and so I think both exist, and I think both

1219
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:32,840
Speaker 1: exist in also in every form of art, like there

1220
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: are people who are I only listen to classic rock,

1221
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:37,360
Speaker 1: and there are people who are like, no, I need

1222
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 1: I need some chainsaws on ice cubes, you know, through

1223
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,840
Speaker 1: reverb chambers. So I I it's all there. You know,

1224
01:10:45,280 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 1: some people like Thomas Kincaid, some people like Picasso, and

1225
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: I think it's it's all good. It's all good. And

1226
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 1: I think perhaps what you're talking about with the the

1227
01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,560
Speaker 1: differences between openness and just what brain connectivity does for

1228
01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:01,240
Speaker 1: you personally might might help explain that. And Frison, yeah,

1229
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: I think you could be right about that. So I

1230
01:11:03,400 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 1: realized time is running short. But there's one more thing

1231
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:07,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to hit before we wrap up, because I

1232
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 1: think this is interesting as well. Um, So I came across,

1233
01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 1: like I mentioned, this researcher named Oregon Vessel of is Key.

1234
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 1: He's got a study I was looking at published in

1235
01:11:16,200 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 1: Social Cognitive and affect of Neuroscience, but actually found what

1236
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 1: was really interesting was an interview with him done by

1237
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 1: a poetry journal called The Napkin Poetry Review, and In

1238
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 1: this interview, this guy was talking about the concept of

1239
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 1: pleasure in negative emotions, which I think is something that

1240
01:11:35,040 --> 01:11:37,240
Speaker 1: really does need to be addressed if we're talking about

1241
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 1: uh freesan in in music, because it's so often in

1242
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:43,360
Speaker 1: in songs that are sad or have some kind of

1243
01:11:43,439 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: negative valence. And actually he points out that, you know,

1244
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:50,719
Speaker 1: Aristotle wrote about this apparent paradox, like why do people

1245
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:54,600
Speaker 1: enjoy going to the theater to watch tragic plays that

1246
01:11:54,680 --> 01:11:57,800
Speaker 1: are full of pity and fear and anguish? Are these

1247
01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 1: emotions not painful when we experience them in our lives?

1248
01:12:01,960 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: And the answer is yes, they are. But there must

1249
01:12:04,080 --> 01:12:07,960
Speaker 1: be something about experiencing them in the context of a

1250
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:13,000
Speaker 1: play that transforms these negative emotions into something pleasurable that

1251
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:16,759
Speaker 1: we want to seek out and repeat. And as an analogy,

1252
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:18,800
Speaker 1: you might think, of course, about that sad song you

1253
01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:21,560
Speaker 1: can't stop listening to. There's some kind of pleasure in

1254
01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:26,280
Speaker 1: the aesthetics of sadness. Um. Now, another way of possibly

1255
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,280
Speaker 1: explaining this is that Aristotle wrote also about the the

1256
01:12:29,400 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 1: complexity of negative emotions themselves and how they often contain

1257
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:38,280
Speaker 1: pleasurable aspects. So, for example, he wrote that anger always

1258
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: has an element of pleasure in it, because the person

1259
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: who's angry is always at some level sort of experiencing

1260
01:12:45,000 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 1: a thrill from from the expectation of vengeance for you know,

1261
01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: the way they've been wronged and uh, and obviously you know,

1262
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 1: there's a lot of media that clearly seems geared towards

1263
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:59,240
Speaker 1: just making people recreationally angry. Sometimes people want to get

1264
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:02,240
Speaker 1: angry about stuff. But you could also say that the

1265
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:05,240
Speaker 1: same could be true about sadness, that maybe there is

1266
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: something going on with sadness that maybe sadness can be

1267
01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 1: pleasurable in some ways if it's just say, due to

1268
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:17,080
Speaker 1: separation of loss, because there's this pleasurable anticipation of redemption

1269
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: and reunion, the same way that anger could be pleasurable

1270
01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 1: because there's this anticipation of revenge. But anyway, for so

1271
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 1: for for this researcher of Asalowski, he said that this

1272
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:30,240
Speaker 1: ended up making him want to study that the concept

1273
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: of being moved, which is something that's clearly not just

1274
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:38,479
Speaker 1: like pleasurable or painful. It is this intense emotional state

1275
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:42,959
Speaker 1: that can blend positive and negative emotions into a single episode.

1276
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 1: It's it's pleasure and pain indivisible. Actually um and that

1277
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: he he added a hypothesis onto this concept of being moved,

1278
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: which has been explored by by philosophers for centuries, which

1279
01:13:54,479 --> 01:13:57,759
Speaker 1: is that it seems like peaque moments of being moved,

1280
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 1: having this ambiguous complax X emotional episode where you're experiencing

1281
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 1: both maybe joy and sadness at the same time. Those

1282
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,759
Speaker 1: experiences tend to be marked by emotional chills or goose bumps.

1283
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: Yet again, and so he did some research looking into

1284
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 1: this in people's responses to poetry and UH, and in

1285
01:14:16,720 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 1: talking about possible reasons why people why we might have

1286
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: this reaction, he says, you know, it could be that

1287
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:28,240
Speaker 1: it's it's conceptually when something feels important and at stake,

1288
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 1: you know, when when it feels like that, the autonomic

1289
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:35,759
Speaker 1: nervous system is aroused and causes this goose bumps reaction

1290
01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:39,680
Speaker 1: UH that is presented to the conscious brain as a

1291
01:14:39,760 --> 01:14:42,840
Speaker 1: sort of signal that's something that's going on in the

1292
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:44,680
Speaker 1: art that you're listening to. You know, the music you're

1293
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:47,960
Speaker 1: listening to or the poem you're reading, something important seems

1294
01:14:48,040 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 1: to be up for grabs and that you need to

1295
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: be on alert and remember what's happening. Makes sense. And

1296
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:56,519
Speaker 1: this comes back to you know, I can think of

1297
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 1: a lot of the things that give me goose bumps

1298
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:02,680
Speaker 1: in art that are somewhat positive, but they also, like

1299
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: I was saying earlier with Lee misserab that involves some

1300
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: element of like risk or change, maybe displays of courage

1301
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:13,760
Speaker 1: or new possibilities, which are themselves often very very kind

1302
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,880
Speaker 1: of scary. So coming back to what Vassel of Whisky

1303
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: says in this interview, he says, you have the negative

1304
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:22,400
Speaker 1: emotion on the foreground and this antidote in the background,

1305
01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 1: or vice versa, but there's always this clash. You can't

1306
01:15:25,400 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 1: really decide on if it's now positive or negative, so

1307
01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:31,839
Speaker 1: it's somehow both and this creates a lot of tension.

1308
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: But importantly, we can experience this clash from an esthetic

1309
01:15:35,520 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 1: distance mode. So it's something about the the ambiguity of

1310
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 1: these uh, these you know, stimuli that elicit a combination

1311
01:15:43,200 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: of pleasure and pain, of joy and sadness at the

1312
01:15:46,280 --> 01:15:49,439
Speaker 1: same time that caused this feeling of being moved, something

1313
01:15:49,479 --> 01:15:52,600
Speaker 1: about the the high stakes that seem to be suggested

1314
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 1: by these by these complex emotional states maybe stimulate the

1315
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,080
Speaker 1: autonomic nervous system because it's making your body, in some

1316
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 1: conceptual sense, feel threatened, as if there was like a

1317
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 1: bear menacing you, and it's trying to get your attention

1318
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:09,719
Speaker 1: to do something about this, this concept that's being raised.

1319
01:16:10,479 --> 01:16:12,920
Speaker 1: But then again, as with what we talked about before,

1320
01:16:13,040 --> 01:16:15,560
Speaker 1: maybe it's possible that you realize you can trigger this

1321
01:16:15,720 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 1: response with some kind of aesthetic stimulus like music or poetry.

1322
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:22,439
Speaker 1: And then and once you realize you can trigger it,

1323
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: the reward system in the brain just wants to get

1324
01:16:26,040 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 1: it again and says, well, let's try that again and again,

1325
01:16:28,920 --> 01:16:32,200
Speaker 1: and and that's what motivates perhaps the pleasurable kind of

1326
01:16:32,280 --> 01:16:35,400
Speaker 1: feeling there. It's the grasping after it. Yeah, I I

1327
01:16:35,840 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 1: think we've answered some quell I'm not gonna say we've

1328
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:41,959
Speaker 1: answered some questions, but like you said, we we've identified

1329
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,400
Speaker 1: some puzzle pieces, we've laid them out on the table,

1330
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: and we've taken a good look at them. What seems

1331
01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:49,600
Speaker 1: most compelling to you now that we've talked about all this.

1332
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:55,120
Speaker 1: I do think that frison seems to me to be

1333
01:16:55,680 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 1: an evolutionary left over that is tied to the fight

1334
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:05,920
Speaker 1: or flight response, and that perhaps our brains have misinterpreted

1335
01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: it into something that has made us enjoy art in

1336
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 1: many ways, but in particular music which doesn't make a

1337
01:17:13,920 --> 01:17:18,640
Speaker 1: lot of sense. However, that's what it's it's adding up

1338
01:17:18,720 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 1: to in my mind. And yeah, and this could this

1339
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:26,320
Speaker 1: is a this is a deep, deep situation that we've

1340
01:17:26,400 --> 01:17:29,360
Speaker 1: we've kind of dug ourselves into and I'm not sure

1341
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:31,040
Speaker 1: if we'll be able to get out all right. Well,

1342
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,120
Speaker 1: the next thing is everybody's gotta go listen to Record

1343
01:17:33,200 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: Store Society. What's a what's a good episode for people

1344
01:17:36,160 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 1: to start off with? Is something you've done recently you

1345
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 1: think people should look up. Well, if they specifically want

1346
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:44,080
Speaker 1: to hear you and Robert, they got to check out.

1347
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:47,919
Speaker 1: Let's see. I think that's episode seventeen, and that episode

1348
01:17:48,000 --> 01:17:50,320
Speaker 1: is called Video Dream And that's the one where we

1349
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 1: do a deep dive into a whole bunch of our

1350
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,160
Speaker 1: favorite music videos. Um, let's see, there's a lot of

1351
01:17:57,200 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: other really good ones. Oh man, Um, there's a really

1352
01:18:01,000 --> 01:18:04,479
Speaker 1: great one called EP or not EP. That's episode nineteen

1353
01:18:05,040 --> 01:18:08,840
Speaker 1: where that's there's a music journalist and author Matt Lamay.

1354
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 1: He was one of the uh like the like original

1355
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:15,000
Speaker 1: like a Pitchfork writers back in the day. Um, and

1356
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,240
Speaker 1: that's a really fun conversation. We've got a really great

1357
01:18:18,280 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 1: episode coming out this Friday, but I I suppose yeah

1358
01:18:22,320 --> 01:18:24,800
Speaker 1: it's tomorrow. I can. I can stay here tomorrow. I've

1359
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: got this really great musician named M Stage. He's one

1360
01:18:27,600 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 1: of my favorites, and um, we're discussing music documentaries and

1361
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:35,880
Speaker 1: that's a very fun deep well so uh because I

1362
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:39,280
Speaker 1: M Stage, in addition to being a wonderful musician, also

1363
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 1: happens to be a film professor in Chicago at a university.

1364
01:18:43,840 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: So uh, he he's got a really great, um dual

1365
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 1: knowledge that really music documentaries are the perfect subject to

1366
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 1: have him talk about. So he's a lot of fun.

1367
01:18:53,400 --> 01:18:56,160
Speaker 1: So anyway, Uh, there's always something fun going on. Every

1368
01:18:56,200 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 1: episode is good. But but those are a few. Alright, folks, Well,

1369
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:01,720
Speaker 1: if that catches your fancy, you should go check out

1370
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:06,320
Speaker 1: Seth's podcast, Record Store Society. Uh. In the meantime, let's

1371
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:07,960
Speaker 1: see do we have anything else? Now? I guess that

1372
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:10,200
Speaker 1: wraps it up for today. But um, but yeah, if

1373
01:19:10,240 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 1: you want to find any more of your of our podcasts,

1374
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 1: we are stuff to blow your mind. You can find

1375
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:17,400
Speaker 1: us wherever you get your podcast. We're on all the platforms,

1376
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:19,600
Speaker 1: all the stuff like that, or you can just google us.

1377
01:19:20,240 --> 01:19:23,080
Speaker 1: Of course, please as always hit subscribe if you're not

1378
01:19:23,200 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 1: subscribe so you can get all of the episodes we

1379
01:19:25,120 --> 01:19:27,600
Speaker 1: put out in the future. Big thanks as always to

1380
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:30,600
Speaker 1: Seth who is our wonderful producer, produces every episode of

1381
01:19:30,640 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 1: this show and does it does such a great job. Seth.

1382
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:35,240
Speaker 1: We love you and we were I really appreciate you

1383
01:19:35,320 --> 01:19:37,560
Speaker 1: coming on the show today. Very happy to do it.

1384
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:40,439
Speaker 1: And Robert will be back next time. That's right, yes,

1385
01:19:40,560 --> 01:19:42,519
Speaker 1: so Robert will be back on the show in the

1386
01:19:42,600 --> 01:19:45,080
Speaker 1: next episode and in the meantime. If you want to

1387
01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:46,800
Speaker 1: get in touch with us to give us feedback on

1388
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 1: this episode or any other, to suggest topic for the future,

1389
01:19:49,479 --> 01:19:51,880
Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact

1390
01:19:51,960 --> 01:20:01,800
Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to

1391
01:20:01,840 --> 01:20:04,360
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For

1392
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:06,639
Speaker 1: more podcasts for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart

1393
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to your

1394
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 1: favorite shows.