WEBVTT - Human Experimentation: Show Notes 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.320 From UFOs two Ghosts and Government cover Ups. History is 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:08.000 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:16.239 learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Welcome 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:18.840 back to the show. Thanks for tuning in. My name 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:21.360 is Ben Bullen and my name is Matt Frederick and 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.880 that's our super producer, Noel Over on the boards, which 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:28.640 that was a nice bow, Noel. That makes this stuff 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.920 they don't want you to know the audio show, right, 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.760 that's correct. And today we are talking about human experimentation, 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.040 something that we've covered already in our video series, but 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:41.360 we thought we'd like to sit down and go over 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.480 it a little bit more in depth. Yeah, because we've 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:46.839 touched on this and a couple of different shows. We 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:49.560 have a series just on human experimentation. As you said, 0:00:49.880 --> 0:00:52.680 we also touched a little bit on it in the 0:00:52.800 --> 0:00:55.920 deep Web because there's some real creepy stuff you can see, 0:00:56.400 --> 0:01:00.920 um about people claiming to conduct non consensual human experiments. Right, 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.600 that's the best kind, right, Yeah, that's the that's the 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:07.840 main kind. Um. Well, where better to start off than 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.200 with an article by h Robert Lamb from Stuff to 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.520 Blow your Mind? Uh, great show he does, he does 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.000 right for the website How Stuff Works and podcast for 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:23.400 us and anytime you think, man, I'd be interested in 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:25.720 hearing a show kind of like Ben and Matt's, will 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:28.920 go ahead and check out these folks. Uh. Point being 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.759 Robert has a great article on human experimentation on our 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:36.000 website how stuff Works dot com, and he had a 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.800 great quotation here, uh that one of us should read. 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.119 What do you think, Matt? Yeah, I'll go for it. Okay. 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.000 The issue of human experimentation generally comes down to a 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:50.400 basic fact. When science deals directly with humans, you have 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:53.880 to study humans eventually. It's that simple. Whether you're looking 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.160 to heal ailments and injuries, build us, say, for automobile, 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.960 or design a deadlier weapon, you may need to test 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:05.400 human thresholds for disease, stress, and injury. Yeah, which I 0:02:05.440 --> 0:02:08.480 thought was a really well written way to say something 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.680 that is the essentially the crux of the ethical dilemma 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:15.960 that is human experimentation. Now we know, of course, the 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:20.560 human experimentation dates far back into the past. I always 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:23.800 mispronounced this guy's name the father of anatomy horror Flis 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.760 horror Filius. So this guy, uh, the father of anatomy 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:32.840 being a fairly prestigious title. Uh. He also practiced vivis section, 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.600 which is a fancy word for cutting people open while 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.800 they're alive, kind of to see what happens. Yeah, that's 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.240 um that's the kind of thing you hear about with 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:47.000 kids experimenting on cats that turn out to be serial killers. 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.480 So good job, Ruflis. Yeah, like one of the trifecta, 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.600 there is a sideboard. But did you ever hear that? 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:56.600 What was the theory that there are three warning signs 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.440 that the psychologist made to figure out if someone was 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.840 going to be a serial killer and arsonists later in life. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.480 One of them was torturing animals, another one's late stage 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:11.800 bed wedding, and then re arson. Apparently bedwetters and arsonists 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:15.680 are part of a ven diagram. It's weird. Sorry, different show. 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:17.960 We'll get to that one. So for a long time, 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:21.600 here's the problem with modern medicine. Um or, I guess 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.680 this wouldn't even count as modern, but here's the problem. Nonetheless, 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:29.120 for quite a while, medicine depended upon the study of cadavers, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:34.480 and these were often from executed criminals. Yeah, and well, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:38.640 here's the biggest problem with working on a cadaver they're dead. 0:03:38.880 --> 0:03:42.680 Their body is completely different than a functioning human body. 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.880 There are a lot of processes that occur immediately upon 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:49.040 death and that begin to occur. So the information that 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:51.840 you're getting, the data that you're getting from a corpse 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.000 is not the same as what you would get from 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:59.080 a living a body. Right. Yeah, that's a really good point. Um, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.200 And because we're both being grown ups, I will avoid 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:05.920 making a lot of death fart jokes. Okay, that happens. 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:08.720 I appreciate that. Okay, I think it's still concipizes that 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.360 it like that. Well, yeah, and that's a good point. 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.960 Because the laws were a bit shaky. This was a 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:18.799 case where we need cadavers to study, even with their drawbacks, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:20.799 because you can't cut people apart while they were alive, 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:24.520 or we shouldn't be doing that, but the laws around 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.719 procuring cadavers, especially in Western Europe, were pretty difficult, leading 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.919 to something called the resurrection men, which is a cool 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.960 name for people who steel dead bodies or superheroes however 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.120 you want to yeah, or superhero could be, it could be. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:45.320 It sounds it's a super heroic name, maybe some kind 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.400 of I could see it as a Bible superhero some 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:51.960 kind of contemporary Christian church puts on. Yeah, or like 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.159 someone who like people who just cannot die. Oh excellent, Um, 0:04:56.200 --> 0:04:58.599 but that kind of messes up the stakes of this story. 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:01.880 I apologize. No, no, anyway, these guys aren't don't apologize. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.520 These guys aren't superheroes. Really, their cadaver thieves. And uh, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:11.600 they interfered with the social fabric of their time so 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:14.120 much that it led to the Anatomy Act of eighteen 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.719 thirty two, which was passed so that medical schools wouldn't 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:23.480 have to rely on this illegal, this bootleg corpse industry, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:29.040 uh to advance higher learning. So they also, uh, well 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.240 it kind of it kind of follows a trend where 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.039 the people that were being used for this kind of 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:38.440 experimentation where a lot of times criminals or minorities of 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.520 wherever place they were living, disabled, and a lot of 0:05:42.520 --> 0:05:46.320 times the poor. Right. Yeah, and here's where we get 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.960 to a kind of scary point with human experimentation. These 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:54.839 practices on the disenfranchised continue into the modern age, and 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:58.600 as we see they continue in some places today. Don't 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.599 get us wrong, we are we are well aware that 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:06.680 human experimentation is necessary. Um. And some of the research 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.679 that would have been just considered an atrocity in modern 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:14.640 times did lead to valuable data about the human condition. Right, 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.599 that's true. So well, let's talk about something, Ben, Let's 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:22.720 talk about when human experimentation is just downright wrong. Okay, no, 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.600 if sans and butts, it's just wrong. Okay. Uh well, 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:29.840 all right, let's let's listen these off. One. When it's 0:06:29.880 --> 0:06:34.039 non consensual, that makes sense. I don't want anybody doing 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:35.640 anything to me that I don't want them to do, 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.280 so I can understand that that's the whole golden rule thing, right. Okay, 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.480 what about when the patients are the victims are uninformed, 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:47.320 so they don't have a chance to disagree or to 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.599 give conser interesting. Uh so, I'm just trying to understand 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:55.200 the difference between non consensual and not being informed. Non 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.600 Consensual is no, don't cut me open, I'm alive, unin 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:04.680 full armed. Is not being told that the um the 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:11.640 food you're being given has an experimental radio radioactive tracing device. 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:14.720 Something understood, thank you, sir. So it's it's kind of 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.280 it's a difference of degree. And then when there's no 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:20.280 regard for patient safety right now, of course, or when 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.400 the patients are victims, can't refuse to participate at any point. 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.480 So I'm not telling me there. That's a little yeah, 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.000 that's great. That's a little bit different. So let's say 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.480 we're let's say you and I are in an experiment 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:36.720 and uh Knowle's conducting experiment. And he says, okay, guys, 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:40.240 you're each going to get into this experiment where you 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.600 stab yourselves in the hands every every ten minutes, you 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:48.920 stab yourselves in the hands for science or whatever. And 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:52.880 uh then, you know, let's say, eleven minutes into it, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:56.240 we want to quit. But he says no, and he's 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.400 got the you know, the science goons tying us down. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.480 And then I got that science Well it's hypothetical, okay, 0:08:03.520 --> 0:08:06.560 but but that's the idea. And then maybe, um, I 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.520 don't know about this last one, the idea that human 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:13.280 experimentation could be wrong when they're alternative avenues of research. 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.120 That's a little bit ethically iffy for some people because 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:23.280 those alternative avenues of research could most often be animals, right, 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.280 which some people have a big problem with. So we 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:31.320 we do have substitutes for experimenting on another person, right, Yeah, yeah, 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:36.280 animals are the go to um, Rabbits are cows? Are 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:41.320 you sometimes mice? Rats? Primates? Um. There are a lot 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.000 of people that see that as equally as wrong. Yeah, 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.439 it might not always be appropriate on a couple of levels. 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.920 Even just on the ethical level might not be appropriate, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:55.840 but also on the um biological level, we might get 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.439 the same data. Like one thing that always escapes people, 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:03.600 I think is when you hear a study about this much, 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:09.000 you know, aspertame or something given to a rat induced 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:13.280 cancer rats not a person um, And the dosages might 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.800 be different as well. So it's a substitute, but it's 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:21.959 not it's not ethical. It's only less unethical, I guess 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.920 if you're saving human life. Um. But then there's the 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.920 other one, which is my favorite. You know this one, 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:33.880 the old self experimentation. Just turn that knife on yourself. 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.839 Let's see what happens. Man, take that pill. Who knows, 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.080 I'm gonna get some data. Hopefully I'll still be around 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.480 to write it down, which is great. That's a great point. 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:45.120 One of the big problems with the sort of roll 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.680 of the dice devil make are approach to science that 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.679 is self experimentation, is that it's difficult to wonder how 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.040 you would retain objectivity. How how can you measure the 0:09:56.160 --> 0:10:00.840 data when you are the observer and the observed absolute man, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.320 I can imagine somebody thinking that it's going a lot 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.720 better because of maybe the side effects of whatever testing 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.960 he's he or she is doing on themselves. Yes, and 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:16.200 speaking testing. Now, let's run through some cases of human 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:21.040 experimentation that is just out and out wrong. Let me 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.920 jump to let's see, let's start off with the Guatemala 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:28.160 syphilis experiments. In the forties, UH Dr John Cutler of 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.720 US Public Health Service worked with the Guatemalan government to 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:36.160 expose people to things like syphilis, gonorrhea, and uh a 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.920 couple of other nasty characters, primarily to see if penicillin 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:45.880 could prevent the affection. UM only seven people were treated. Now, 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.320 many of these people already had the disease, were just 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.400 observed or denied treatment. UM eighty three did die. Some 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.120 of these folks were prisoners, some were soldiers, and some 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.920 that were mental patients. Yeah, talking about non content there, jeez. 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.640 Then you've got the Tuskegee experiments. These are probably one 0:11:03.679 --> 0:11:08.480 of the most well known episodes of human experimentation. This 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.120 is UH in nineteen thirty two, all the way to 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:15.720 nineteen seventy two. That's forty years where there were experiments 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.319 with It was an experiment overall, but it was really 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:24.959 just looking at the effects of syphilis. But the it 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:28.160 was blackmails that had syphilis already and then there's also 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.040 a control group, and they essentially just wanted to see 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.720 what would happen over the time with syphilis and these men. 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.800 And they they didn't deny them treatment, did they. It 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.920 was they didn't. Uh, they didn't let them know that 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.840 penicillin could treat syphilis, and it could and it could 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.600 have they could have saved their lives exactly, but they didn't. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.600 And uh, this is interesting. IO. I owe an apology. 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:53.920 We issue a correction about this because when we first 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.720 talked about it, I say that the Public Health Service 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:00.480 infected these people, and in the c d CES upside 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:02.880 it says they didn't. So we did issue a correction. 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.160 But I had I had a couple of people on 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:10.040 YouTube coming up and saying, no, I'm related to someone 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:13.679 there they were infected with syphilis by the government. So well, 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.200 that's one of those things. Do you trust the government source? 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.640 A lot of people don't. We We kind of ride 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.480 that fine line between wanting to take what what's said 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.160 and kind of use it in conjunction with other information. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.960 It's a tough spot for us to really know what 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:35.240 the truth is. Yeah, well, we we do try to 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.560 make sure that we can find it it is. It 0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:39.880 is a good point, Matt. It can be difficult at 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.360 times to discern where the truth is in in between 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.640 varying accounts, you know. Uh So, with all due respect 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:50.959 everybody involved, I think the best thing that we can 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:55.120 say is that we have conflicting reports, but the official 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.640 story is that the people already had syphilis. Now we're 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:03.240 building up to them. Probably the most well known periods 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:07.680 of modern human experimentation, that side World War Two. Man, 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.320 that's that's where are things. That's where it gets crazy. Then, yes, 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:14.840 that's where it gets crazy. Concentration camp experiments. This is 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:19.679 something that everybody probably knows about. I would be surprised 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.120 if someone was a fan of our show and did 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:26.880 not know that multiple scientists across various concentration camps like 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:32.280 dock Ow, uh Sastenhausen, not Spidler, buken Walden, more, you 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:39.080 can bold and more, we're conducting just diabolical, fiendish experiments 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.600 on completely innocent people. Um. When you're looking at everything 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:49.680 from extreme temperatures, looking at hypothermia, hypothermia, UM, pressure chambers. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.240 I mean, that's that's some pretty crazy stuff, trying to 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:54.800 look at the human body and altitude and like, how 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.520 what are the thresholds for the human body? Um, You're 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:04.280 looking at diseases and actions typhoid, malaria, yellow fever, even gases, 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.240 mustard gas. Uh. They Now this case, we do know 0:14:08.800 --> 0:14:12.839 it is unambiguously true that the scientists in this case 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:17.360 did deliberately affect people with diseases. UM. Now you know 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.760 one of the most infamous of these people is a 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:25.840 fellow named Josef Mengele at Auswitz. Uh. He he was 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.440 The way that we have it here um is that 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.240 he was torturing people under the guise of medicine. Um. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:37.200 But as we look at some of his experiments, his 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.240 science wasn't that great. No, it's the confirmation biased thing, 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:46.600 trying to trying to prove his his ideological beliefs right 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:52.240 through this experimentation about races. I mean it's really deeply 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:55.040 seated in racism, is it not. Yeah, Yeah, it's really 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:59.280 deeply seated in his idea of proving that um an 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:03.080 aryan man us to race was somehow superior to other people. 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.480 So as founding principles run sound, which made his science unsound. Uh. 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:10.200 He had one thing we should mention. Uh. He had 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.280 a number of obsessions. Probably the most well known would 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:18.200 be his obsession with twins. Um do twins, Uh experience 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.640 each other's emotions? If something happens, to which win will 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:25.440 the other one be aware? Um oregan transplants experimented with 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.360 as well. Apparently there are a lot of grizzly things 0:15:28.400 --> 0:15:31.560 that happened to one twin and perhaps not to the other, 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.360 and one survived. That's really crazy stuff. Yeah, And just 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.400 as an example to show how off his science was, 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.720 he would have experiments where he had this concussion or 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.280 head injury experiment where they just had this kid being 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.160 hit over and over in the head with a hammer. 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.320 Good god, kind of well to see what happens, which 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.680 is such a strange question. You know, what happens when 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:58.240 you just get hit in the head with a hammer. 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:03.720 You know, let's find out just forever one and a hammer. Yeah, 0:16:04.200 --> 0:16:06.640 and this pales and you know, we're not making light 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:10.120 of this, If anything, we're indicting the guy for um 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:14.600 going so far with such bad science. Um, but yeah, 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.040 he wasn't the only one. Was. The Germans were not 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.240 the only people doing experimentations at the time. The UM 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:25.640 Japan also had a little bout with human experimentation. That's 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.600 of course Unit seven thirty one that was headed by 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.320 shiro Ishi and that was founded in nineteen thirty two 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.960 and it was active from nineteen thirty seven to nineteen 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:39.840 and um there again lots of experiments with chemicals, with 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:45.240 biological agents against stuff to poison, like exposing people to 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:51.000 poisonous substances and extreme temperatures again, more vivisection and even 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.680 you know, diseases like the bubonic plague. Now they were 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.320 top secret right at the time. Yeah, that was found 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.440 out later. This is this. Uh, these two cases are 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.840 interesting because um, some of the members of Unit thirty 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.840 one had diplomatic immunity at the close of the war 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.080 because the idea was that their experiments um, as messed 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.080 up as they were and how or as horrific as 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:16.560 they were, their experiments did have some sort of scientific 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:20.320 merit and most importantly they could never be repeated. Yeah, 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:24.040 but that information was important, like you said, and what 0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.919 happened to it. Funny story. Funny story about what happened 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.240 to it. We know what happened to uh, some of it. 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:33.960 We know that a lot of it did end up 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:39.480 in the United States and informed later epidemiological research on 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.280 our end. We also know that a lot of its 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:46.600 state classified. So what's your take on that using using 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:52.400 the information that came directly from the suffering of people. Well, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.920 to be candid with you, and that is a great 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.800 question to be candid with you. I think that it's Ah, 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:03.080 it's our possibility as people to use that kind of 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.919 information if there's a way to prevent further deaths. Um, 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:11.720 what about you? Actually, I think we I think it 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.800 is our responsibility also to have that information because that's 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.480 information that could be when you look at something with 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.640 the extreme temperatures. Let's just take that as an example, 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:27.879 all right, imagine how that probably has informed things like 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:34.760 clothing for extreme temperatures. UM, trauma. Yeah right, I mean 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.120 there there are great things that will eventually come out 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.160 of it, as horrible as it is, and hopefully will 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:43.920 never happen again. That one time that it happened in 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:48.000 the nineteen forties that we know of that we know 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.440 of we've gained a lot of information and it's terror 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:54.159 it's horrible to think about it. Well, yeah, that's and 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:56.679 you know, that's a fair point. There's an ongoing debate 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:02.200 today about whether the day provided by these experiments is 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.760 useful or if so, to what degree. And there are 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.040 people who will say that it wasn't useful at all. 0:19:08.720 --> 0:19:12.119 But as we found out, if we turn from that 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:15.960 chapter of history and go just a little bit further 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:20.520 into the future, Um, we go to St. Louis. Oh, yeah, 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:23.600 an old St. Louis in nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties, 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.320 in the early days of the Cold War, the army 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.879 arrived in St. Louis and began spraying zinc cadmium sulfide 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:37.200 on children and families. Yeah. And uh, these these poor, 0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:42.800 unfortunate folks were from the Pruitt Ego housing projects. So 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:46.560 again we see the pattern of taking advantage of the 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:50.639 disenfranchised to the poor. Um to see how this would 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.760 how this would work out? Um, do you want to 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:56.520 talk about another this is it feels weird saying that 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:58.720 this is one of our favorites because it's such a 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:03.120 grizzly thing to discuss. Yeah, yeah, um, mk Ultra, I mean, yes, sir, 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:08.440 Well that's this one. This one is fascinating to me 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.440 obviously because there are you can read some of the 0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.840 reports on the information from this, they declassified information. So 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.400 this the mk Ultra is the c I a program 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:23.880 where LSD was used to test essentially essentially psychology. Yeah, 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.040 finger quotes around tests there. Yeah, this is true. But 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.760 this is this is the infamous one that you've probably 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:32.960 heard about. You may have heard of Project Artichoke. We 0:20:33.040 --> 0:20:36.320 did a whole series on Artichoke, which was I believe 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:40.280 the predecessor of mk Ultra. Yeah. Mk Ultra had a 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:43.879 couple of predecessors, and it had a couple of sub programs. 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.879 The ideas were that some of the ideas were things like, 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.560 will LSD function as a truth serum? Or will l 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:55.200 s D allow us to make a Manchurian candidate, to 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.119 compel somebody to do something that they would not usually do. 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:00.920 But they just went not with it. They went nuts 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:03.600 and bananas with it. They were dosing everybody and their mom. 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.320 They were dosing you know, they were getting prostitutes to 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:08.560 pull guys over and like a honey pot trap and 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:11.280 then dosing those guys. They were dosing each other. They 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:15.320 were doing a little joking, Hey I dosed you. I know, 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:19.399 we're having this dinner party, but which you know, quickly 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.560 becomes more of a portrait of an agency out of control, 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.920 um than any kind of rigorous human experimentation. Although there 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.640 was a sort of merit to what they were doing 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:36.600 because they did learn valuable things. Um, But then I 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:38.440 think they went out of control with it, and that 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.639 is just we're just scratching the surface. We're just touching 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.800 on some of the more well known human experimentation examples. Uh, 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:50.720 there's psychological stuff that could not be repeated today, like 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:55.760 the Stanford prison experiment, um, the or the Milgram experiment 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.639 I believe, and the Stanford prison one is where they 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:05.320 took some students, they divided them into prison guards and prisoners, right, Yeah, 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:08.240 and it quickly it was found out that when you 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:10.880 when you play someone in a position of power at 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:15.800 the guards, they take on this other so um, just 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:19.760 these qualities that that hadn't been really observed before. How 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:23.920 quickly that those qualities were taken in Yeah, and to 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.960 such an extreme degree, to the point of being abusive 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:30.800 to the pseudo prisoners and so on. You know, what's 0:22:31.359 --> 0:22:35.200 what's always startling to me about the psychological experiments And 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:37.000 I have a question for you about these later, But 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:39.720 what's always startling to me is that it calls to 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.800 mind how much the human mind is like water and 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.280 it conforms to its container. And the containers would be 0:22:47.359 --> 0:22:50.480 the roles, uh, that society gives us or that we 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:55.440 give ourselves. So there's there's so many implications about this. 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:59.520 You know, what kind of what kind of container do 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.359 you put somebody in socially if you want them to 0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:04.680 be successful? What do you do if you want them 0:23:05.200 --> 0:23:09.240 to fail? And how do we apply that knowledge? This 0:23:09.320 --> 0:23:11.479 is what I'm thinking about during the HR meetings. Man, 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:13.919 you guys can't see this, but Ben Ben looks at 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.400 me so intensely sometimes when he's saying these things. It's 0:23:17.600 --> 0:23:19.640 it's incredible. You you have to do it one day. 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.560 You have to sit across from Ben. H. I would 0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.399 highly recommend it. Oh man, Uh, that's that's weird. Man. 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.400 Maybe maybe some people in the audience have already set 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.680 across from us in disguise, right what, it's all part 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:36.639 of our experiment. There were also epidemiological experiments. This is 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.680 when you told me about, Matt. Oh, yeah, this is 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:44.040 the this is Operation Big Buzz Wow. Okay, so this 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:46.639 is where Mosquito it was. It was tested whether or 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:50.720 not mosquitoes would be a good weapon. If you weaponize 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:54.840 the mosquitoes by infecting them with yellow fever and then 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:57.840 you send out this massive swarm of mosquitoes on your enemies, 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.560 everybody gets yellow fever over there. Um, let's see if 0:24:01.640 --> 0:24:04.600 this works. So it was tested in Georgia actually nineteen 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.920 and um, I don't know. It just seemed like a 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:12.160 crazy idea to me. It sounds like an interesting idea. Yeah, 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:16.240 it's and you know if from a tactical perspective, it's 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.720 it's smart warfare. If it would work, it's interesting. Ben. 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.320 It makes me think about the West Nile outbreak that 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:24.840 happened in a couple of different places, and it was 0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:27.520 largely thought that mosquitoes were the carriers of the West 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:31.359 Nile virus. Hum. I don't know. It just makes me think, oh, dude, 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.800 is somebody send some West ni house Quito's over here? Man. Well, 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:37.760 if you think about it, it's I mean, it makes 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:41.760 sense that a country or a government would want to 0:24:41.920 --> 0:24:44.960 learn how to propagate things that way, because that's how 0:24:45.520 --> 0:24:48.800 Mosquito has already been doing it for you know, thousands 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:53.320