1
00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,956
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:20,236 --> 00:00:23,156
Speaker 2: Rodney Croll has been a fixture and Nashville songwriting community

3
00:00:23,236 --> 00:00:26,836
Speaker 2: for over fifty years. Born in Houston in nineteen fifty,

4
00:00:26,996 --> 00:00:30,236
Speaker 2: he was influenced early on by songwriters Guy Clark, in Towns,

5
00:00:30,316 --> 00:00:33,356
Speaker 2: van zandt. In nineteen seventy five, he joined Emmy Lou

6
00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:36,476
Speaker 2: Harris's Hot Band as a guitarist and harmony singer, playing

7
00:00:36,476 --> 00:00:39,676
Speaker 2: with her for three years. Rodney became known for his

8
00:00:39,716 --> 00:00:42,796
Speaker 2: own work with his nineteen eighty eight album Diamonds and Dirt,

9
00:00:42,956 --> 00:00:46,236
Speaker 2: an album that made history by producing five consecutive number

10
00:00:46,276 --> 00:00:50,436
Speaker 2: one singles. Over his career, he's written songs for Johnny Cash,

11
00:00:50,436 --> 00:00:53,916
Speaker 2: Willie Nelson, Bob Seger, and countless others, earning him a

12
00:00:53,956 --> 00:00:57,796
Speaker 2: place in the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame. Just last August,

13
00:00:57,996 --> 00:01:02,396
Speaker 2: krow released his twentieth studio album, Airline Highway, produced by

14
00:01:02,436 --> 00:01:07,436
Speaker 2: Tyler Bryant and recorded at Dockside Studio in Louisiana. In

15
00:01:07,476 --> 00:01:09,476
Speaker 2: just a few months back, Willie Nelson at Least What

16
00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:14,156
Speaker 2: a Beautiful World, an entire album of Krowell covers. On

17
00:01:14,196 --> 00:01:17,116
Speaker 2: today's episode, Bruce Headlam talks to Rodney Crowell about making

18
00:01:17,116 --> 00:01:20,076
Speaker 2: the Airline Highway In the emotional experience of hearing Willie

19
00:01:20,076 --> 00:01:23,836
Speaker 2: Nelson's tribute album, he discusses his formative years in Nashville

20
00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:26,836
Speaker 2: songwriting community, learning the craft from Guy Clark in towns

21
00:01:26,916 --> 00:01:30,796
Speaker 2: Van Say. He opens up about his difficult childhood in Houston,

22
00:01:30,836 --> 00:01:33,716
Speaker 2: including his mother's epilepsy and his father taking him to

23
00:01:33,756 --> 00:01:37,196
Speaker 2: see Hank Williams perform when he was just two years old.

24
00:01:37,836 --> 00:01:40,316
Speaker 2: Plus he talks about working with his ex wife Roseanne

25
00:01:40,356 --> 00:01:43,756
Speaker 2: Cash and meeting his father in law, Johnny Cash, for

26
00:01:43,796 --> 00:01:52,716
Speaker 2: the first time. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations.

27
00:01:56,156 --> 00:01:58,076
Speaker 2: Here's Bruce Headlam with Rodney Crowell.

28
00:01:59,916 --> 00:02:02,076
Speaker 1: You have a new album, Airline Highway, that I do

29
00:02:02,156 --> 00:02:04,876
Speaker 1: want to talk about if you've had a very big year.

30
00:02:04,956 --> 00:02:09,676
Speaker 1: A couple months ago, Willie Nelson released an album covers

31
00:02:09,796 --> 00:02:13,316
Speaker 1: of your material. What a Beautiful World. I'm just interested.

32
00:02:13,316 --> 00:02:14,916
Speaker 1: What was your reaction to hearing that?

33
00:02:15,876 --> 00:02:17,876
Speaker 3: Well, first I went in and sang on a song.

34
00:02:18,036 --> 00:02:20,676
Speaker 3: We had a duet, so I heard one song and

35
00:02:20,756 --> 00:02:24,196
Speaker 3: I had a sense of the sound of it. But

36
00:02:24,276 --> 00:02:27,916
Speaker 3: he called me back to listen to the whole album,

37
00:02:27,996 --> 00:02:31,956
Speaker 3: finished mix, sitting on his console, sitting there listening and

38
00:02:33,516 --> 00:02:35,556
Speaker 3: by the second banks of the old band Beer. I

39
00:02:35,676 --> 00:02:39,796
Speaker 3: was sobbing. It was like, you know, I cried through

40
00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:42,796
Speaker 3: half of it. I think a lot of it was

41
00:02:42,836 --> 00:02:46,796
Speaker 3: like fingers crossed that they even finished this project, that

42
00:02:47,276 --> 00:02:50,676
Speaker 3: it comes to fruition. It's like, wouldn't it be great?

43
00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:53,556
Speaker 3: And when I heard it, I was like, oh, man,

44
00:02:54,556 --> 00:02:57,836
Speaker 3: but that had happened to me on an album before that.

45
00:02:58,036 --> 00:03:00,996
Speaker 3: I was driving in my car and I heard Willy

46
00:03:01,036 --> 00:03:02,756
Speaker 3: had done this song, and I called Minnie along and

47
00:03:02,836 --> 00:03:06,076
Speaker 3: on some highway I was driving and it was so

48
00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:09,796
Speaker 3: sweet sounding to me. I was sobbing then. So it's like,

49
00:03:10,316 --> 00:03:13,796
Speaker 3: Willy has my number. All he has to do is

50
00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:15,436
Speaker 3: sing a few words and I'm crying.

51
00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:17,636
Speaker 1: Does that happen with other songs? And that happens with

52
00:03:17,716 --> 00:03:20,516
Speaker 1: your songs that you cry mine?

53
00:03:20,556 --> 00:03:21,716
Speaker 3: I'm selfish that way.

54
00:03:22,756 --> 00:03:25,556
Speaker 1: I cry my own songs. Yeah, thank you very much.

55
00:03:25,756 --> 00:03:27,916
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not interested in anybody else.

56
00:03:28,716 --> 00:03:32,956
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful sounding album, like the space in it. Yeah,

57
00:03:32,996 --> 00:03:35,956
Speaker 1: it's just gorgeous. And he's ninety two.

58
00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:37,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, go figure.

59
00:03:37,716 --> 00:03:38,436
Speaker 1: It sounds great.

60
00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:41,276
Speaker 3: Here's the interesting thing I think what got me about it.

61
00:03:41,356 --> 00:03:43,876
Speaker 3: There are the second song's banks of the old Bandira,

62
00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:47,556
Speaker 3: and it's a song I wrote way back in the

63
00:03:47,596 --> 00:03:52,316
Speaker 3: mid seventies, and it's about childhood, and I recorded it

64
00:03:52,876 --> 00:03:56,436
Speaker 3: in around nineteen ninety nine, a good while after I

65
00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,156
Speaker 3: wrote it, and my version as a middle aged man

66
00:04:00,236 --> 00:04:03,276
Speaker 3: singing about childhood. But the thing that got me the

67
00:04:03,316 --> 00:04:06,796
Speaker 3: most is Willy's ninety one at the time and singing

68
00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:12,076
Speaker 3: about childhood and my what really moved me emotionally was that, God,

69
00:04:13,116 --> 00:04:15,556
Speaker 3: she was a ninety one year old man, and he's

70
00:04:15,716 --> 00:04:19,396
Speaker 3: closer to childhood than a middle aged man in terms

71
00:04:19,436 --> 00:04:24,356
Speaker 3: of delivering I don't know, just whatever it is about youth,

72
00:04:25,076 --> 00:04:26,556
Speaker 3: it's like come in full circle.

73
00:04:26,756 --> 00:04:31,716
Speaker 1: It's an amazing album. It's also very you're talking about

74
00:04:31,716 --> 00:04:35,716
Speaker 1: that particular song. His takes are so sweet, but they're

75
00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:40,436
Speaker 1: not sentimental at all, and I don't know quite how

76
00:04:40,476 --> 00:04:41,516
Speaker 1: he pulls that off.

77
00:04:43,156 --> 00:04:48,716
Speaker 3: I don't think Willy was ever particularly sentimental or cloying

78
00:04:49,116 --> 00:04:52,036
Speaker 3: or anything like that. I mean, from the get go

79
00:04:52,156 --> 00:04:57,596
Speaker 3: he was straight ahead. And part of my love for

80
00:04:57,716 --> 00:05:01,276
Speaker 3: WILLI started around nineteen sixty four. He had a song

81
00:05:01,396 --> 00:05:04,796
Speaker 3: call I Never Cared for You that was being played

82
00:05:04,836 --> 00:05:08,796
Speaker 3: on the rock station in Houston, and I was walking

83
00:05:08,836 --> 00:05:13,716
Speaker 3: down sidewalk and when it came out, the opening line says,

84
00:05:13,716 --> 00:05:16,076
Speaker 3: the sun is filled with ice and gives no warmth

85
00:05:16,116 --> 00:05:19,076
Speaker 3: at all. This guy was never blue. The stars a

86
00:05:19,196 --> 00:05:21,836
Speaker 3: raindrop searching for a place to fall, and I never

87
00:05:21,916 --> 00:05:26,236
Speaker 3: cared for you. I'm fourteen, and when I hear that,

88
00:05:26,356 --> 00:05:30,276
Speaker 3: it's like, what language is this man speaking? Because the

89
00:05:30,276 --> 00:05:34,036
Speaker 3: Beatles were cracking the radio at the time, and shortly

90
00:05:34,076 --> 00:05:37,836
Speaker 3: after that I heard Subterranean Homesick Blues. A friend of

91
00:05:37,836 --> 00:05:40,796
Speaker 3: mine had that Dylan album Bringing It All Back Home.

92
00:05:40,876 --> 00:05:43,396
Speaker 3: I think that was the one. And so there were

93
00:05:43,476 --> 00:05:47,956
Speaker 3: two pieces of music that happened that had a depth

94
00:05:48,316 --> 00:05:51,956
Speaker 3: that I recognized, some sort of death. But I needed,

95
00:05:52,196 --> 00:05:54,796
Speaker 3: you know, I needed twenty years to grow into whatever

96
00:05:54,916 --> 00:05:57,716
Speaker 3: that was about that. I was sensing it in my

97
00:05:58,556 --> 00:06:03,156
Speaker 3: mid teens, and I don't think really ever moved away

98
00:06:03,236 --> 00:06:06,716
Speaker 3: from that. Even when he was singing you know, beautiful

99
00:06:07,476 --> 00:06:10,196
Speaker 3: love ballads and stuff, it's still unded like he had

100
00:06:10,196 --> 00:06:11,316
Speaker 3: that kind of gravity.

101
00:06:12,036 --> 00:06:14,436
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit when we want to dive

102
00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:17,756
Speaker 1: back into early influences, but tell me a bit about

103
00:06:17,756 --> 00:06:20,596
Speaker 1: how this album Airline Highway came about.

104
00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:26,956
Speaker 3: Well, quite naturally. The writing process is, if I'm not

105
00:06:27,076 --> 00:06:31,196
Speaker 3: out on the road performing, I'm pretty much up up

106
00:06:31,236 --> 00:06:34,516
Speaker 3: every morning working on songs. Right, I approach it like

107
00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:37,716
Speaker 3: a writer. It's I guess my job, and I love

108
00:06:37,796 --> 00:06:38,196
Speaker 3: the work.

109
00:06:38,316 --> 00:06:40,236
Speaker 1: So do you get up early to do it before

110
00:06:40,236 --> 00:06:40,876
Speaker 1: anybody else?

111
00:06:41,476 --> 00:06:45,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm an early riser now because I raised four kids,

112
00:06:45,276 --> 00:06:47,316
Speaker 3: and you know, I used to sleep till four in

113
00:06:47,316 --> 00:06:51,996
Speaker 3: the afternoon before I started became a father, and I

114
00:06:52,076 --> 00:06:54,716
Speaker 3: never got that turner. There didn't seem to be any

115
00:06:54,796 --> 00:06:58,436
Speaker 3: need to turn that back around, and so I'm up working.

116
00:06:58,636 --> 00:07:02,356
Speaker 3: It's I figure it's a blessing that I have the

117
00:07:02,436 --> 00:07:05,756
Speaker 3: work in the first place and have the time to

118
00:07:05,836 --> 00:07:10,276
Speaker 3: do it. So I'm writing the song songs that would

119
00:07:10,316 --> 00:07:14,636
Speaker 3: become Airline Highway. But at the same time I met

120
00:07:14,716 --> 00:07:17,996
Speaker 3: up with a lad named Tyler Bryant, who's the producer

121
00:07:19,116 --> 00:07:23,836
Speaker 3: through Peter Leek, my manager, and Tyler's from Paris, Texas.

122
00:07:23,836 --> 00:07:27,036
Speaker 3: We're both Texas boys. But I got into a conversation

123
00:07:27,156 --> 00:07:32,156
Speaker 3: with him about the first recordings. First recording studio I

124
00:07:32,236 --> 00:07:35,836
Speaker 3: ever walked into to try to sing something a song

125
00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:40,556
Speaker 3: that I'd written was in Crowley, Louisiana. It's a studio

126
00:07:40,636 --> 00:07:44,596
Speaker 3: owned by J. D. Miller, a real wheeler dealer down there,

127
00:07:44,636 --> 00:07:47,916
Speaker 3: and nothing came of those sessions that I have the

128
00:07:47,996 --> 00:07:52,716
Speaker 3: tapes at home and they'll never be released because they're

129
00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:55,716
Speaker 3: not worthy of being released. But I also had this

130
00:07:55,876 --> 00:07:59,316
Speaker 3: romantic notion because we used to growing up on the

131
00:07:59,316 --> 00:08:02,156
Speaker 3: east side of Houston. We used to cross the Louisiana

132
00:08:02,196 --> 00:08:04,596
Speaker 3: line over there to hear the Boogie Kings at the

133
00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:08,236
Speaker 3: Big Oaks Club is It was called Blue Eyed Soul,

134
00:08:08,556 --> 00:08:12,636
Speaker 3: big soul band with horn section and a couple of

135
00:08:12,876 --> 00:08:16,116
Speaker 3: great R and B singers leading the band. So we

136
00:08:16,156 --> 00:08:18,836
Speaker 3: would go and we would sit outside in the parking

137
00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:20,796
Speaker 3: lot and we could hear him through the walls.

138
00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:23,236
Speaker 1: Was this with friends or with your family?

139
00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:27,756
Speaker 3: No? With other lads my age, you know, we would

140
00:08:27,756 --> 00:08:30,116
Speaker 3: sneak over there. And also there was a romance of

141
00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:32,356
Speaker 3: it now and again if you find the right spot,

142
00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:36,036
Speaker 3: you could buy beer. When you were fifteen, it was

143
00:08:36,156 --> 00:08:40,516
Speaker 3: lawless in that way, but the music was really it

144
00:08:40,556 --> 00:08:43,516
Speaker 3: was a romantic trip to go over there to hear

145
00:08:43,596 --> 00:08:47,476
Speaker 3: the Boogie Kings. And I was describing that to Tyler,

146
00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:52,796
Speaker 3: and I was also describing Crowley, Louisiana, and we had

147
00:08:52,876 --> 00:08:56,036
Speaker 3: decided we wanted to make a record. And Trina Shoemaker

148
00:08:56,076 --> 00:08:58,236
Speaker 3: lives down there on the coast and she was part

149
00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:01,076
Speaker 3: of that New Orleans scene that Lanoix had going on,

150
00:09:02,396 --> 00:09:05,916
Speaker 3: and I've made a couple of records with her, and

151
00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:08,876
Speaker 3: so we were going to bring her in and I said, guy,

152
00:09:09,236 --> 00:09:11,156
Speaker 3: I went to Chicago and made a record. I had

153
00:09:11,156 --> 00:09:14,756
Speaker 3: so much fun to fulfill this fantasy. I had to

154
00:09:14,796 --> 00:09:19,516
Speaker 3: go into Chicago and recording Hellan Wolf and the likes.

155
00:09:19,756 --> 00:09:22,556
Speaker 3: And I said, I need to go to Louisiana, but

156
00:09:22,636 --> 00:09:24,756
Speaker 3: I don't feel like New Orleans where I ought to go.

157
00:09:24,836 --> 00:09:28,836
Speaker 3: And Treata said, oh, well, you got to go to Dockside.

158
00:09:28,836 --> 00:09:32,156
Speaker 3: It's on the Vermilion River. And if you don't get

159
00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:35,156
Speaker 3: eaten by if we don't get eaten by crocodiles, we'll

160
00:09:35,196 --> 00:09:39,316
Speaker 3: make a good record. So there the idea that we're

161
00:09:39,316 --> 00:09:42,796
Speaker 3: going to Louisiana maker record was born. And so Tyler

162
00:09:42,796 --> 00:09:46,396
Speaker 3: and I had loaded up a vanful of mostly his gear.

163
00:09:46,436 --> 00:09:48,676
Speaker 3: I had a couple of guitars, but he had amps

164
00:09:48,676 --> 00:09:52,236
Speaker 3: and whatever, and we drove down there to to Dockside

165
00:09:52,276 --> 00:09:56,236
Speaker 3: Studio and met some musicians from Texas that that we

166
00:09:56,316 --> 00:09:59,356
Speaker 3: love and set up in a studio not too much

167
00:09:59,436 --> 00:10:02,596
Speaker 3: unlike this one with a good cement floor in case

168
00:10:03,036 --> 00:10:07,156
Speaker 3: in case the river gets up, and we were off amazing.

169
00:10:07,756 --> 00:10:09,356
Speaker 1: I want to go back to your writing because I

170
00:10:09,396 --> 00:10:12,316
Speaker 1: want you to set the scene for me. You say

171
00:10:12,316 --> 00:10:14,356
Speaker 1: you write every day. You have an office at home?

172
00:10:14,476 --> 00:10:15,556
Speaker 1: Do you go to an office?

173
00:10:15,636 --> 00:10:18,516
Speaker 3: I have a home studio, you know. I go down

174
00:10:18,636 --> 00:10:21,356
Speaker 3: across the house and hit down the hallway and I

175
00:10:21,396 --> 00:10:24,196
Speaker 3: have a studio in one wing of the house there

176
00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:29,836
Speaker 3: which I've made records in there. And for me, you know,

177
00:10:29,916 --> 00:10:32,836
Speaker 3: people say what's your favorite song you've ever written? And

178
00:10:33,196 --> 00:10:36,436
Speaker 3: I always say, well, the one i'm working on, that's

179
00:10:36,476 --> 00:10:39,196
Speaker 3: the most important song that I've ever written, whatever I'm

180
00:10:39,196 --> 00:10:45,196
Speaker 3: working on now. And I can't say that the end

181
00:10:45,236 --> 00:10:48,996
Speaker 3: result of the record we made was so much by

182
00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:53,636
Speaker 3: design as I was writing, because pretty much the rule

183
00:10:53,636 --> 00:10:56,596
Speaker 3: of thumb I have is that if I'm patient enough,

184
00:10:56,636 --> 00:10:58,436
Speaker 3: the song will tell me what it wants to be.

185
00:11:00,316 --> 00:11:05,796
Speaker 3: But slowly, I think, maybe intuitively, I knew I was

186
00:11:05,876 --> 00:11:11,996
Speaker 3: headed south to record the record a song with Lucas

187
00:11:12,036 --> 00:11:18,196
Speaker 3: Nelson about rainy days in California and going back east,

188
00:11:18,236 --> 00:11:22,676
Speaker 3: and I just made my way back to Louisiana because

189
00:11:22,676 --> 00:11:27,036
Speaker 3: of my childhood down there, and that might have been

190
00:11:27,116 --> 00:11:30,516
Speaker 3: a signal that got me to think, well, wouldn't it

191
00:11:30,596 --> 00:11:32,996
Speaker 3: be nice to go record in the swamps down there

192
00:11:32,996 --> 00:11:36,956
Speaker 3: and see if we could pick up some swampy sounds.

193
00:11:38,196 --> 00:11:42,356
Speaker 3: And I continued on and for a song like taking Flight,

194
00:11:43,476 --> 00:11:47,716
Speaker 3: I'd already written it with Ashley McBride before, but it

195
00:11:47,836 --> 00:11:54,116
Speaker 3: was certainly the landscape down in southern Mississippi. So maybe

196
00:11:54,396 --> 00:11:57,476
Speaker 3: intuitively I was headed that way from the get go,

197
00:11:57,556 --> 00:12:03,316
Speaker 3: but it wasn't conscious. I wasn't consciously trying to craft

198
00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:08,356
Speaker 3: a song like a group of songs that were necessarily

199
00:12:09,876 --> 00:12:14,196
Speaker 3: had a Louisiana vibe. But mind you, over the years

200
00:12:14,236 --> 00:12:17,196
Speaker 3: I've written songs like Leaving Louisiana in the broad Daylight

201
00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:20,796
Speaker 3: and Fever on the Bio and Stars on the Water.

202
00:12:20,996 --> 00:12:24,316
Speaker 3: So I guess I figured that Louisiana owes me something.

203
00:12:25,156 --> 00:12:31,676
Speaker 1: You know, your lyrics seem so precise to me. Do

204
00:12:31,796 --> 00:12:34,276
Speaker 1: the lyrics change a lot once you get in the studio?

205
00:12:35,676 --> 00:12:39,036
Speaker 3: No, I don't do any writing in the studio once

206
00:12:39,116 --> 00:12:44,236
Speaker 3: we're set up to record, got microphones and the sounds.

207
00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,396
Speaker 3: I write everything before we get in the studio. I

208
00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:52,716
Speaker 3: don't like to have to think about finding a good

209
00:12:52,836 --> 00:12:56,636
Speaker 3: rhyme in the middle of about to get a good

210
00:12:56,676 --> 00:12:59,996
Speaker 3: take that doesn't work for me. I gotta have it

211
00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:01,276
Speaker 3: written before we go in.

212
00:13:01,636 --> 00:13:03,796
Speaker 1: So when you're writing, are you there with a guitar

213
00:13:04,116 --> 00:13:05,876
Speaker 1: or are you working on lyrics?

214
00:13:06,116 --> 00:13:12,676
Speaker 3: Usually, well, melody comes more easily for me than lyric.

215
00:13:13,516 --> 00:13:18,076
Speaker 3: It's probably seventy thirty. I probably spend seventy percent of

216
00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:21,476
Speaker 3: the time working on the lyric, but the music is,

217
00:13:21,556 --> 00:13:24,516
Speaker 3: generally speaking a lot easier for me. I don't struggle

218
00:13:24,516 --> 00:13:28,556
Speaker 3: with that too much. Generally, the melody comes. And it's

219
00:13:29,356 --> 00:13:31,516
Speaker 3: very rare that I've written the lyric and then tried

220
00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:35,676
Speaker 3: to match a melody to fit it. It's happened a

221
00:13:35,676 --> 00:13:39,676
Speaker 3: couple of times. But the good ones, there's some kind

222
00:13:39,676 --> 00:13:45,116
Speaker 3: of vibe or some notion or atmosphere from a chord

223
00:13:45,676 --> 00:13:47,636
Speaker 3: or a couple of chords that fall together in the

224
00:13:47,716 --> 00:13:52,516
Speaker 3: right way will lead the way to how the melody

225
00:13:53,276 --> 00:13:55,356
Speaker 3: is and how the language fits it.

226
00:13:56,676 --> 00:14:00,556
Speaker 1: So a line on the new record like She's a

227
00:14:00,556 --> 00:14:04,956
Speaker 1: wildwood flower in a red Corvette, Yeah, which I love? Yeah?

228
00:14:05,156 --> 00:14:07,236
Speaker 1: Do you remember did that come to you in the

229
00:14:07,236 --> 00:14:09,756
Speaker 1: middle of writing the song? That did that? Started?

230
00:14:10,236 --> 00:14:17,116
Speaker 3: Interestingly, that song, it started with an entirely different melodic

231
00:14:17,316 --> 00:14:22,036
Speaker 3: feel and an entirely different sort of a little more

232
00:14:22,116 --> 00:14:25,436
Speaker 3: rock and roll kind of thing that I was trying

233
00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:28,996
Speaker 3: to force it into this, this kind of barcurd, a

234
00:14:28,996 --> 00:14:32,756
Speaker 3: little chuck berry Ish take on a feel with a

235
00:14:32,796 --> 00:14:37,796
Speaker 3: little bluesy rock Chuck berriersh. And I didn't have the

236
00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,236
Speaker 3: wildwood Flower in the Red Corvette yet, but I had

237
00:14:40,956 --> 00:14:43,716
Speaker 3: sometime thing, she don't make believe in making love to

238
00:14:43,756 --> 00:14:46,116
Speaker 3: a sometime thing. I had that because that was based

239
00:14:46,156 --> 00:14:49,676
Speaker 3: on an experience with some dude hitting home my girlfriend.

240
00:14:50,396 --> 00:14:54,356
Speaker 3: I watched it happen. She's my wife now, we've been

241
00:14:54,396 --> 00:14:59,036
Speaker 3: together all this time, and I was watching it. He

242
00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:01,916
Speaker 3: was putting the move on her, and she was oblivious

243
00:15:01,956 --> 00:15:05,516
Speaker 3: to it and blew him off. And she didn't blow

244
00:15:05,556 --> 00:15:08,636
Speaker 3: him off intentionally, she just wasn't buying.

245
00:15:08,316 --> 00:15:10,676
Speaker 1: It r And she was so cool.

246
00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:14,356
Speaker 3: And I watched it, and that's she don't believe in

247
00:15:14,396 --> 00:15:17,596
Speaker 3: making love to a sometime thing. That's the line that

248
00:15:17,716 --> 00:15:20,076
Speaker 3: came to me, and I had it in that chuck

249
00:15:20,156 --> 00:15:24,996
Speaker 3: berry Field. But years went by, twenty some years went

250
00:15:25,036 --> 00:15:27,156
Speaker 3: by that I monkeyed around with it.

251
00:15:27,756 --> 00:15:29,916
Speaker 1: Oh so the lyric was that old yeah.

252
00:15:29,916 --> 00:15:35,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, the the chorus, but then I just said this melody,

253
00:15:35,396 --> 00:15:38,316
Speaker 3: I cannot bring anything home, and then one morning I

254
00:15:38,396 --> 00:15:41,796
Speaker 3: woke up and I started playing just this real folky

255
00:15:42,116 --> 00:15:47,836
Speaker 3: thumb style rhythm for it, and there it was. And

256
00:15:47,876 --> 00:15:51,196
Speaker 3: then the line She's a wildwood flower in a red

257
00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:53,836
Speaker 3: Corvette just came to me. And when you get a

258
00:15:53,876 --> 00:15:55,476
Speaker 3: line like that, and I thought that was a really

259
00:15:55,476 --> 00:15:59,076
Speaker 3: good line and line and when that hit, when that came,

260
00:15:59,156 --> 00:16:02,636
Speaker 3: and then I hit on Tanya Tucker meets Kate Blanchett.

261
00:16:03,276 --> 00:16:07,956
Speaker 3: I said, uh okay, and a song that had been

262
00:16:08,076 --> 00:16:11,996
Speaker 3: just atting for twenty any plush years, came together in

263
00:16:12,236 --> 00:16:12,996
Speaker 3: thirty minutes.

264
00:16:13,676 --> 00:16:16,676
Speaker 1: It is an interesting song because it it sounds like

265
00:16:16,756 --> 00:16:20,396
Speaker 1: a like an old blues kind of wang dang doodle

266
00:16:20,636 --> 00:16:21,836
Speaker 1: sort of riff.

267
00:16:22,036 --> 00:16:23,996
Speaker 3: And then it's just beauty should pay it.

268
00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:25,436
Speaker 1: You should absolutely play it.

269
00:16:25,556 --> 00:16:28,156
Speaker 3: Let me just play, at least play some of it.

270
00:16:30,516 --> 00:16:37,156
Speaker 3: She's a wild wood flower in a red Corvette, Dan

271
00:16:37,316 --> 00:16:43,916
Speaker 3: you Tucker meets Kate bland Set. She stagger like dishes

272
00:16:43,956 --> 00:16:49,676
Speaker 3: in the kitchen sink. She doesn't give a damn what

273
00:16:49,876 --> 00:16:55,116
Speaker 3: it is. You might thing. She got the blue green

274
00:16:55,196 --> 00:17:02,036
Speaker 3: eyes and who doo smile pearly white over by drive

275
00:17:02,116 --> 00:17:12,036
Speaker 3: them in wild, voicelike butter when she opens them mount you.

276
00:17:12,076 --> 00:17:14,756
Speaker 3: Ever since I met her, I've been heading down south.

277
00:17:17,196 --> 00:17:19,156
Speaker 3: Now you can try to make a thunder. You can

278
00:17:19,196 --> 00:17:21,356
Speaker 3: try to slop the rain. She don't believe in making

279
00:17:21,436 --> 00:17:26,196
Speaker 3: love to a sometime thing. Sometimes thing, sometimes thanks, you

280
00:17:26,236 --> 00:17:32,796
Speaker 3: don't believe in making love to a sometime thing. Whoever

281
00:17:32,876 --> 00:17:38,756
Speaker 3: said the diamonds are a girl's best friend might have

282
00:17:38,796 --> 00:17:44,516
Speaker 3: set you thinking you could buy a way in. Because

283
00:17:44,556 --> 00:17:47,996
Speaker 3: you haven't noticed why you're flashing that green. He was

284
00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:53,716
Speaker 3: a rich guy. She's happy feeding quarters to a slop machine.

285
00:17:55,476 --> 00:17:58,116
Speaker 3: Now she's an open invitation to go back from where

286
00:17:58,156 --> 00:18:00,316
Speaker 3: you came. She don't believe in making love to a

287
00:18:00,476 --> 00:18:05,396
Speaker 3: sometime thing. Sometimes things. Sometimes thinks you don't believe in

288
00:18:05,436 --> 00:18:10,956
Speaker 3: making love to a sometime thing. You get on a

289
00:18:10,956 --> 00:18:15,716
Speaker 3: Swiss Chatau, half a block of monocle and girls, a

290
00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:23,276
Speaker 3: mass on and downtround santrope. You could take a Gulf

291
00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:28,436
Speaker 3: stream jet party where the sun don't set. In case

292
00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:32,316
Speaker 3: you haven't heard me yet, be careful where you place

293
00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:37,996
Speaker 3: that bed. Heal, you better heed my wanter, Tell me

294
00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:43,916
Speaker 3: what did I see? I love that woman till my

295
00:18:44,116 --> 00:18:49,516
Speaker 3: die in day. Go on and make a move on

296
00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:54,916
Speaker 3: what you know to be mine. It's only going to

297
00:18:55,036 --> 00:19:00,036
Speaker 3: lead you to the back of the line. You can

298
00:19:00,076 --> 00:19:02,116
Speaker 3: try to run your number. Let me try to make

299
00:19:02,156 --> 00:19:04,396
Speaker 3: it plain. You don't believe in making enough to a

300
00:19:04,516 --> 00:19:09,516
Speaker 3: sometime thing, sometime thing sometime. Thanks, you don't be even

301
00:19:09,556 --> 00:19:11,636
Speaker 3: making love to do a sometimthing.

302
00:19:14,876 --> 00:19:18,836
Speaker 1: That the lines in there are so good, thank you

303
00:19:19,916 --> 00:19:23,276
Speaker 1: stack like dishes in the kitchen sink. Yes, and though

304
00:19:23,316 --> 00:19:26,196
Speaker 1: the one that kills me is one way ticket back

305
00:19:26,236 --> 00:19:29,796
Speaker 1: to where you came from where you came. Yeah, it's

306
00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:33,236
Speaker 1: also now that I know the story, somebody hitting on

307
00:19:33,276 --> 00:19:36,316
Speaker 1: your girlfriend, somebody rich hitting on your girlfriend. It's not

308
00:19:36,956 --> 00:19:42,196
Speaker 1: unsympathetic to the guy. Hmm. You could have written a

309
00:19:42,196 --> 00:19:46,676
Speaker 1: song that was like you're a loser. Yeah, you're you're

310
00:19:46,716 --> 00:19:50,716
Speaker 1: out of her league. But the guy was.

311
00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:55,756
Speaker 3: A film star and I suppose still is. I'll never

312
00:19:55,836 --> 00:19:59,756
Speaker 3: reveal his name, doesn't matter, but thank you for pointing

313
00:19:59,756 --> 00:20:04,036
Speaker 3: out that it is sympathetic toward the guy. I'm glad because,

314
00:20:04,316 --> 00:20:08,796
Speaker 3: to be honest, it wasn't my intention to be sympathetic.

315
00:20:09,236 --> 00:20:12,796
Speaker 3: Really want to thumb my nose at him and pretty

316
00:20:12,876 --> 00:20:14,196
Speaker 3: much what I'm doing.

317
00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:19,116
Speaker 1: But maybe I should rephrase it's sympathetic towards men in general.

318
00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:24,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, God knows we need that. Yes, and our genders,

319
00:20:26,676 --> 00:20:28,676
Speaker 3: our backs have been against the wall for a long

320
00:20:28,756 --> 00:20:30,676
Speaker 3: time and for good reason.

321
00:20:31,916 --> 00:20:36,196
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've earned that. Uh. You mentioned growing up in Houston.

322
00:20:36,796 --> 00:20:38,956
Speaker 1: For people who notice how many references that are to

323
00:20:39,116 --> 00:20:43,876
Speaker 1: rain in your songs, you come by it honestly. Oh yeah,

324
00:20:43,916 --> 00:20:47,796
Speaker 1: lots of hurricanes. Yeah, it rained a lot, Torrential. You

325
00:20:47,876 --> 00:20:51,636
Speaker 1: describe in your book basically your house falling apart growing

326
00:20:51,716 --> 00:20:53,676
Speaker 1: up because of the rain.

327
00:20:54,076 --> 00:20:55,996
Speaker 3: In England they call them two up and two down.

328
00:20:56,196 --> 00:21:00,796
Speaker 3: There's four rooms with a bathroom and uh, and there's

329
00:21:00,836 --> 00:21:04,276
Speaker 3: a kitchen in my parents' bedroom. I was the only child.

330
00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:07,796
Speaker 3: But you could see the stars through the through the

331
00:21:08,596 --> 00:21:11,196
Speaker 3: through the room, through the ceiling in their bedroom, and

332
00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:15,716
Speaker 3: they had number three wash tubs and igloo water coolers

333
00:21:15,756 --> 00:21:19,876
Speaker 3: and pots and pants catching water coming through the ceiling,

334
00:21:19,956 --> 00:21:22,636
Speaker 3: and same thing in the kitchen. But the water would

335
00:21:22,756 --> 00:21:25,956
Speaker 3: the light bulb in the center of the ceiling. It

336
00:21:26,036 --> 00:21:29,996
Speaker 3: had been dangerous as it could be, because the water

337
00:21:30,036 --> 00:21:34,196
Speaker 3: would come pouring down around the light fixture in the ceiling,

338
00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:36,716
Speaker 3: you know, And it would rain and just rain and

339
00:21:36,836 --> 00:21:40,916
Speaker 3: rain and rain. And I still love rain. I mean,

340
00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:42,476
Speaker 3: rain feels like home to me.

341
00:21:43,236 --> 00:21:46,556
Speaker 1: You describe your father who worked construction, He was a

342
00:21:46,596 --> 00:21:48,316
Speaker 1: handy guy, but not at home.

343
00:21:49,156 --> 00:21:54,876
Speaker 3: No, that's true about him. I mean he six or

344
00:21:54,916 --> 00:21:59,836
Speaker 3: seventh grade, sharecrop farm education in western Kentucky. He wound

345
00:21:59,916 --> 00:22:04,236
Speaker 3: up running as the head guy at a big construction

346
00:22:04,356 --> 00:22:09,436
Speaker 3: company in Houston, taking on really building barges and launch

347
00:22:09,516 --> 00:22:16,676
Speaker 3: pads for ships being launched by a shipyard. There. Really

348
00:22:16,676 --> 00:22:20,716
Speaker 3: a smart guy, but it just all the good things

349
00:22:20,756 --> 00:22:24,156
Speaker 3: he did for other people just didn't make it all.

350
00:22:26,116 --> 00:22:28,916
Speaker 1: Was that ever a discussion like we can see the Stars?

351
00:22:30,236 --> 00:22:33,716
Speaker 3: No, I don't think so. I think it's no doubt

352
00:22:33,756 --> 00:22:38,156
Speaker 3: my parents were Depression era of farm kids. Sharecraft farm

353
00:22:38,276 --> 00:22:44,316
Speaker 3: could dis entitled, and I don't think that they really

354
00:22:44,396 --> 00:22:48,556
Speaker 3: thought that they had a right to expect anything better

355
00:22:48,596 --> 00:22:52,756
Speaker 3: than what was there. However, my dad would go off

356
00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:58,116
Speaker 3: to work and really perform for the man. And my

357
00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:01,356
Speaker 3: mother was a janitor at the school for a while there,

358
00:23:01,396 --> 00:23:04,156
Speaker 3: and I suppose she was good at it. I don't know,

359
00:23:04,356 --> 00:23:07,836
Speaker 3: But if you knew my mom and dad, you wouldn't

360
00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:12,316
Speaker 3: know why I'm a songwriter Because my father played guitar

361
00:23:12,356 --> 00:23:14,876
Speaker 3: and he had a beautiful voice, and he was a

362
00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:20,076
Speaker 3: savant in another way, in that he grew up on

363
00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:22,596
Speaker 3: a sharecraft farm where they walked four or five miles

364
00:23:22,636 --> 00:23:26,356
Speaker 3: to someone who had a dry cell radio to listen

365
00:23:26,396 --> 00:23:30,316
Speaker 3: to the Grand Ole Opry on Saturday nights. And I

366
00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:32,316
Speaker 3: guess the way it was he could hear a song

367
00:23:32,356 --> 00:23:36,516
Speaker 3: once or twice and have it, and most of those

368
00:23:36,556 --> 00:23:40,676
Speaker 3: songs were simple in that way. And my father actually

369
00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:45,716
Speaker 3: took me to Hank William's next to last performance in

370
00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:50,796
Speaker 3: Houston in nineteen fifty two, right before Christmas, and I

371
00:23:50,836 --> 00:23:53,356
Speaker 3: was two years and four months old.

372
00:23:53,556 --> 00:23:54,316
Speaker 1: Do you remember that?

373
00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:56,556
Speaker 3: And I wrote about it in my book, But what

374
00:23:56,636 --> 00:24:00,796
Speaker 3: I remember is the smell of his hair tonic and

375
00:24:00,876 --> 00:24:04,796
Speaker 3: a little bit of a light and that kind of

376
00:24:05,676 --> 00:24:11,036
Speaker 3: hushed audience sound before things start to happen. But he

377
00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:14,356
Speaker 3: reinforced the memory over and over and over again, because

378
00:24:14,396 --> 00:24:18,436
Speaker 3: as I was from childhood on, he was like, don't

379
00:24:18,716 --> 00:24:21,796
Speaker 3: ever forget that. I took you to see the Hillbilly Shakespeare,

380
00:24:22,436 --> 00:24:25,036
Speaker 3: which is what they called Hank Williams back then. So

381
00:24:25,236 --> 00:24:29,476
Speaker 3: he drove it home. So my memory of it is

382
00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:32,356
Speaker 3: his memory, and I wrote about I tried to write

383
00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:33,276
Speaker 3: about it that way.

384
00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:36,876
Speaker 1: You don't remember the show itself, No, no, no way.

385
00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:41,596
Speaker 3: But I do remember, you know, a couple of years

386
00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:45,756
Speaker 3: after that, being on the floor with a little record

387
00:24:45,756 --> 00:24:49,396
Speaker 3: player in those Hank william seventy eights. I'd figured out

388
00:24:49,396 --> 00:24:52,316
Speaker 3: how to get them on a small turntable and listen

389
00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:54,476
Speaker 3: to those Hank Williams seventy eights over and over and

390
00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:55,996
Speaker 3: over again.

391
00:24:56,316 --> 00:24:57,916
Speaker 1: What were the songs that stuck with you?

392
00:24:58,396 --> 00:25:02,836
Speaker 3: Oh? Well, it's like moving on over come in last

393
00:25:02,916 --> 00:25:06,396
Speaker 3: night about half past ten, a baby, I wouldn't let me.

394
00:25:06,436 --> 00:25:10,556
Speaker 3: I man, that caught me even age four. It's like, whatever,

395
00:25:11,156 --> 00:25:16,876
Speaker 3: the role of that language and Chuck Berry had sort

396
00:25:16,916 --> 00:25:19,476
Speaker 3: of the same effect on me. You know that those

397
00:25:19,516 --> 00:25:23,276
Speaker 3: cartoons of the the cat following floating through the air,

398
00:25:23,356 --> 00:25:28,636
Speaker 3: following the cat nip, those kind of rolling, tumbling lyrical

399
00:25:28,796 --> 00:25:34,276
Speaker 3: events like those. So I've always been on the lookout

400
00:25:34,316 --> 00:25:36,916
Speaker 3: for that kind of thing. It's like, boy, how do

401
00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:41,236
Speaker 3: you string them together where the song becomes a freight train?

402
00:25:41,636 --> 00:25:44,196
Speaker 1: Are there songs of yours? You think you've succeeded in

403
00:25:44,236 --> 00:25:44,596
Speaker 1: doing that?

404
00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:49,036
Speaker 3: I've succeeded from you know, time and time again. You know,

405
00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:53,196
Speaker 3: I've been doing it for fifty years, so you know,

406
00:25:53,276 --> 00:25:56,556
Speaker 3: at least twice in a decade, I've succeeded in the.

407
00:25:56,436 --> 00:25:59,956
Speaker 1: Strength with that particular kind of rolling feel.

408
00:26:00,156 --> 00:26:05,396
Speaker 3: Well, it's I've never tried to ape somebody else's success.

409
00:26:05,836 --> 00:26:08,396
Speaker 3: I've tried to find it in my own way. But

410
00:26:08,956 --> 00:26:11,796
Speaker 3: like I'll look for trouble and I found its soun

411
00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:14,436
Speaker 3: straight down the barrel of a low man's gun from

412
00:26:14,476 --> 00:26:17,436
Speaker 3: my living alone like this, that was like that or

413
00:26:17,516 --> 00:26:21,116
Speaker 3: fate's right hand. You know when your move like that

414
00:26:21,876 --> 00:26:24,396
Speaker 3: at a young age and you're actually on your way

415
00:26:24,436 --> 00:26:29,876
Speaker 3: to becoming a professional songwriter, those things never really leave you.

416
00:26:31,636 --> 00:26:35,996
Speaker 3: They're there to stay because it's like it becomes a benchmark.

417
00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,556
Speaker 3: It just happened in so many ways along the way.

418
00:26:39,596 --> 00:26:43,756
Speaker 3: To hear Chris Christofferson woke up Sunday morning with no

419
00:26:43,836 --> 00:26:46,836
Speaker 3: way to hold my head. That didn't hurt to hear

420
00:26:46,956 --> 00:26:51,356
Speaker 3: that is like, oh boy, okay, there it is. I

421
00:26:51,356 --> 00:26:55,436
Speaker 3: don't want to do that, but I want to access

422
00:26:55,516 --> 00:26:58,756
Speaker 3: something inside of me that is my own version of

423
00:26:58,756 --> 00:27:01,316
Speaker 3: what that is to me. That's the search.

424
00:27:04,276 --> 00:27:06,996
Speaker 2: We'll be back with more from Rodney Crowell after the break.

425
00:27:11,476 --> 00:27:13,316
Speaker 1: Before we go back to songwriting. I do want to

426
00:27:13,356 --> 00:27:17,756
Speaker 1: mention your mother, who's this incredible character yea in your book.

427
00:27:18,876 --> 00:27:21,876
Speaker 1: She took you to church. She wasn't particularly musical herself,

428
00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:26,196
Speaker 1: but you've got a lot of church music through to her.

429
00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:28,316
Speaker 1: She went to evangelical churches.

430
00:27:28,636 --> 00:27:32,876
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, you know, my mother was the way they

431
00:27:32,956 --> 00:27:39,276
Speaker 3: referred to it back then, is Pentecostal woman. And she's

432
00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:42,316
Speaker 3: spoke in tongues, you know. I jokingly say, we were,

433
00:27:42,476 --> 00:27:46,796
Speaker 3: you know, just a couple of cuts below snake handlers.

434
00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:50,836
Speaker 3: But my mother used to drag me up on the

435
00:27:50,836 --> 00:27:52,996
Speaker 3: east side of Houston, used to drag me this place

436
00:27:53,036 --> 00:27:56,836
Speaker 3: called Emmanuel Temple where they had If you read the book,

437
00:27:56,916 --> 00:27:59,236
Speaker 3: it sounds like you have. It's like there were two

438
00:27:59,356 --> 00:28:03,636
Speaker 3: preachers at this church. They alternated. I don't remember why

439
00:28:03,676 --> 00:28:08,276
Speaker 3: they alternated. One guy was really slick, you know, he

440
00:28:08,956 --> 00:28:18,316
Speaker 3: was sort of insinuated that he was the evolved spiritual

441
00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:21,996
Speaker 3: leader of this thing. But I didn't trust the guy.

442
00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:25,556
Speaker 3: You know, at age four or five, it's like something that.

443
00:28:26,116 --> 00:28:30,076
Speaker 3: But there was another guy named Brother Premerton, who later

444
00:28:30,196 --> 00:28:34,276
Speaker 3: reminded me of Jerry Lee Lewis, And I liked him

445
00:28:34,436 --> 00:28:37,476
Speaker 3: because he was he was slinging it from the hip,

446
00:28:37,556 --> 00:28:39,796
Speaker 3: he was making it up as his going. He was

447
00:28:40,396 --> 00:28:43,836
Speaker 3: he was saving us all from from roasting and held

448
00:28:43,956 --> 00:28:47,316
Speaker 3: you know, just at the very last minute. And he

449
00:28:47,436 --> 00:28:49,116
Speaker 3: just had a knack for it, and I loved him.

450
00:28:49,116 --> 00:28:52,596
Speaker 3: And the thing about it, the whole thing in the

451
00:28:52,676 --> 00:28:56,356
Speaker 3: church was that we if the preacher was doing his job,

452
00:28:56,436 --> 00:29:00,516
Speaker 3: we would all go down and kneel, you know, by

453
00:29:00,596 --> 00:29:05,876
Speaker 3: the podium there and confess our sins. And I was

454
00:29:05,916 --> 00:29:09,116
Speaker 3: just kind of disinterested in looking around. I happened to

455
00:29:09,196 --> 00:29:11,516
Speaker 3: glance up at the guy and he was standing over me,

456
00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:15,116
Speaker 3: and he winked. He just gave me a wink. And

457
00:29:15,316 --> 00:29:18,156
Speaker 3: it's like it set me free for the rest of

458
00:29:18,196 --> 00:29:21,236
Speaker 3: my life. It was like to me, he was saying, hey, man,

459
00:29:21,316 --> 00:29:25,156
Speaker 3: this is show business. You know. Then he let me

460
00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:28,316
Speaker 3: in on the secret. Of course, it took it took

461
00:29:28,356 --> 00:29:31,156
Speaker 3: a long time for it to dawn on me that

462
00:29:31,156 --> 00:29:33,716
Speaker 3: that what that wink really meant. And maybe he didn't,

463
00:29:33,756 --> 00:29:36,476
Speaker 3: maybe he didn't mean it. But later on when it

464
00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:38,876
Speaker 3: dawned on me, it's like, ah, he was letting me

465
00:29:38,876 --> 00:29:42,516
Speaker 3: in on this is show business man, because that's what

466
00:29:42,556 --> 00:29:45,916
Speaker 3: it was. The slick dude he was, it was show

467
00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:49,116
Speaker 3: business for him. He was just doing it in a

468
00:29:49,236 --> 00:29:50,756
Speaker 3: in a more suave way.

469
00:29:50,996 --> 00:29:52,276
Speaker 1: Were you ever religious then?

470
00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:57,076
Speaker 3: No, no, no, man. It's like organized religion doesn't work

471
00:29:57,116 --> 00:30:00,756
Speaker 3: for me. A spiritual life works for me. And you know,

472
00:30:02,356 --> 00:30:05,796
Speaker 3: I'm a god guy, you know. I think whatever that is,

473
00:30:06,356 --> 00:30:09,116
Speaker 3: I got a connection to it. But it's it's strict

474
00:30:09,396 --> 00:30:12,916
Speaker 3: my connection. I wouldn't even dare to assume that with

475
00:30:13,076 --> 00:30:16,676
Speaker 3: anybody else's connection. I think one of my problems with

476
00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:20,476
Speaker 3: religion is that they try to lead you down their

477
00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:22,196
Speaker 3: path instead of your own path.

478
00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:25,796
Speaker 1: Your mother also, and you talk about this a lot

479
00:30:25,836 --> 00:30:29,676
Speaker 1: on your book. She had Caesar, she had epilepsy, I

480
00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:31,036
Speaker 1: guess full blown.

481
00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:36,916
Speaker 3: She had polio too. That girl started out you know,

482
00:30:38,116 --> 00:30:44,756
Speaker 3: polio dyslexia. I'm sure epileptic. I mean if she had grandma,

483
00:30:46,036 --> 00:30:50,236
Speaker 3: serious serious epilepsy. And but you had to look after her,

484
00:30:50,356 --> 00:30:54,796
Speaker 3: had to after my grandmother pass away. It was my

485
00:30:54,996 --> 00:30:59,356
Speaker 3: job because see, there's a thing about this epilepsy with

486
00:30:59,436 --> 00:31:03,676
Speaker 3: my mother is that it never happened when my father

487
00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:07,716
Speaker 3: was around. I think those were the rules. But in

488
00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:09,996
Speaker 3: her case, when she would I feel it coming, she

489
00:31:10,076 --> 00:31:12,996
Speaker 3: knew when it was coming. It never caught her off

490
00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:16,436
Speaker 3: guard because like four or five blocks down to the

491
00:31:16,436 --> 00:31:19,996
Speaker 3: little corner grocery where she'd go buy a six pack.

492
00:31:20,156 --> 00:31:21,916
Speaker 3: I'd go with her a walk down there and she'd

493
00:31:21,916 --> 00:31:25,476
Speaker 3: buy a six pack of Jack's beer and chug it down,

494
00:31:25,556 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 3: and then I would nurse her through those epileptic seizures.

495
00:31:31,036 --> 00:31:33,036
Speaker 3: And you know it was she was on the floor,

496
00:31:33,436 --> 00:31:35,436
Speaker 3: foaming at the mouth, the whole thing, and I had

497
00:31:35,476 --> 00:31:39,516
Speaker 3: a spoon try to keep her from swallowing her tongue.

498
00:31:39,636 --> 00:31:43,836
Speaker 3: It was, you know, when you think about it, it

499
00:31:43,916 --> 00:31:47,996
Speaker 3: was harrowing. But at the time, I'd watched my grandmother

500
00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:52,236
Speaker 3: look after her, and pretty much it absorbed what she

501
00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:55,356
Speaker 3: would do to look after her. So when my grandmother

502
00:31:55,396 --> 00:32:00,036
Speaker 3: passed away, it was my job. Interestingly, until I was

503
00:32:00,076 --> 00:32:07,236
Speaker 3: about seventeen or eighteen years old, and my mother had

504
00:32:07,276 --> 00:32:11,516
Speaker 3: all the signs of it went on, and I just

505
00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:15,236
Speaker 3: I won't repeat the words here, but I with a

506
00:32:15,236 --> 00:32:19,356
Speaker 3: lot of explatives, I just said, you can die. As

507
00:32:19,396 --> 00:32:21,956
Speaker 3: far as I'm concerned, I'm never going to nurse you

508
00:32:22,036 --> 00:32:26,636
Speaker 3: through one of these things ever. Again, more vitriolic than that.

509
00:32:27,276 --> 00:32:31,076
Speaker 3: I'd had enough of it. And with the exception of

510
00:32:31,156 --> 00:32:35,036
Speaker 3: one small seizure, that was it for her. It's like

511
00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,236
Speaker 3: I finally blew the whistle on it. And apparently I

512
00:32:39,236 --> 00:32:41,196
Speaker 3: should have done that a long time before.

513
00:32:41,356 --> 00:32:45,236
Speaker 1: So you said you thought it was your job. What

514
00:32:45,436 --> 00:32:47,636
Speaker 1: made you stand up one day and say I can't

515
00:32:47,636 --> 00:32:47,996
Speaker 1: do this.

516
00:32:48,196 --> 00:32:50,156
Speaker 3: I was just fed up with it. Plus I was

517
00:32:50,996 --> 00:32:54,436
Speaker 3: on the verge of heading out into the world, go

518
00:32:54,476 --> 00:32:57,676
Speaker 3: to college or something, you know, senior in high school maybe.

519
00:32:58,476 --> 00:33:02,676
Speaker 3: But it wasn't anything that I rehearsed. It just came up.

520
00:33:02,756 --> 00:33:06,636
Speaker 3: I just had enough. Things can change in life in

521
00:33:07,116 --> 00:33:11,156
Speaker 3: the strangest way, something that should have happened four years

522
00:33:11,196 --> 00:33:17,756
Speaker 3: ago couldn't have happened four years ago. And that was it.

523
00:33:17,796 --> 00:33:20,756
Speaker 1: So tell me when did making music start for you?

524
00:33:22,156 --> 00:33:29,356
Speaker 3: Well, it was I was graduating high school, and you know,

525
00:33:29,436 --> 00:33:34,636
Speaker 3: you have a class song, and so I was really

526
00:33:34,676 --> 00:33:38,476
Speaker 3: interested in popular music, you know, from the Beatles on

527
00:33:38,676 --> 00:33:41,316
Speaker 3: and Chuck Berry and all the things that I like,

528
00:33:41,596 --> 00:33:45,756
Speaker 3: Bob Dylan, and so I went home and wrote a

529
00:33:45,796 --> 00:33:49,716
Speaker 3: song for the class of sixty eight Crosby High School,

530
00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:56,156
Speaker 3: forty three seniors graduating. I wrote this song, really not

531
00:33:56,236 --> 00:33:58,596
Speaker 3: a very good song, but they all voted it in.

532
00:33:58,716 --> 00:34:00,076
Speaker 1: So I'm not going to play it now.

533
00:34:00,196 --> 00:34:04,156
Speaker 3: So, oh god no. I went to my twenty fifth

534
00:34:05,476 --> 00:34:08,396
Speaker 3: class reunion, the only one ever, and I went and

535
00:34:08,716 --> 00:34:11,676
Speaker 3: by then I had a reputation for making records and

536
00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:15,316
Speaker 3: what have you been writing songs? And so some of my

537
00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:17,516
Speaker 3: classmates from back then were We're like, hey, are you

538
00:34:17,516 --> 00:34:22,876
Speaker 3: gonna play her class song? You know? Player? So I said, no, no,

539
00:34:23,076 --> 00:34:25,396
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I have a guitar and no, no,

540
00:34:25,596 --> 00:34:29,116
Speaker 3: that's not that's written. No. And there was a woman

541
00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:32,076
Speaker 3: named Miss Hinson who was a home economics teacher who

542
00:34:32,116 --> 00:34:35,796
Speaker 3: always really loved when I was in school, and she

543
00:34:36,316 --> 00:34:39,436
Speaker 3: was hard on me, but I really liked it. And

544
00:34:39,516 --> 00:34:41,836
Speaker 3: I could tell that she had a she liked me.

545
00:34:42,036 --> 00:34:46,436
Speaker 3: But all these students, you know, from my high school

546
00:34:46,436 --> 00:34:49,596
Speaker 3: were gathered around and it was almost like the red

547
00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:52,916
Speaker 3: sea opened up. Here comes Miss Hinson, surely in her

548
00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:56,996
Speaker 3: nineties by then, and she comes walking up and I said, well,

549
00:34:57,156 --> 00:35:01,036
Speaker 3: you know that's not gonna and she said, she said good.

550
00:35:02,036 --> 00:35:04,636
Speaker 3: That song wasn't any good then, and it wouldn't be

551
00:35:04,676 --> 00:35:06,036
Speaker 3: any good now.

552
00:35:06,956 --> 00:35:07,236
Speaker 1: Wow.

553
00:35:07,276 --> 00:35:10,836
Speaker 3: And I said, miss him, and I hugged her and

554
00:35:10,916 --> 00:35:15,956
Speaker 3: I said, You're so right, You're so right. It was wonderful.

555
00:35:15,956 --> 00:35:18,076
Speaker 3: It was the perfect thing that to happen.

556
00:35:19,516 --> 00:35:22,116
Speaker 1: And so you started playing in bands, though, or you

557
00:35:22,196 --> 00:35:24,356
Speaker 1: got together with guys and played in clubs.

558
00:35:24,596 --> 00:35:27,956
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I left home. It wasn't runaway. I left

559
00:35:27,956 --> 00:35:32,716
Speaker 3: home at age fifteen to join a band in a

560
00:35:32,716 --> 00:35:35,916
Speaker 3: little country town. We lived on the east side of Houston,

561
00:35:35,956 --> 00:35:39,356
Speaker 3: and these brother's sister team that I knew, came to

562
00:35:39,476 --> 00:35:42,316
Speaker 3: the door and said they were putting a band together

563
00:35:42,436 --> 00:35:46,396
Speaker 3: in a little town about thirty five miles northeast of

564
00:35:46,436 --> 00:35:50,356
Speaker 3: where we lived. So I took a guitar and left

565
00:35:50,356 --> 00:35:55,236
Speaker 3: home and my mother, I don't remember what she said,

566
00:35:55,276 --> 00:36:00,716
Speaker 3: but my dad said, telling me, you write your own songs.

567
00:36:01,516 --> 00:36:06,756
Speaker 3: So first rehearsal, I'm there with these teenagers and I

568
00:36:06,796 --> 00:36:13,236
Speaker 3: started playing if you live change, oh about leaving leaving

569
00:36:13,356 --> 00:36:17,036
Speaker 3: me behind? You know this song? And I said, yeah,

570
00:36:17,076 --> 00:36:22,876
Speaker 3: I wrote that song. Of course, all that everybody knew

571
00:36:22,876 --> 00:36:25,556
Speaker 3: I did. And it was like, you didn't write that song.

572
00:36:25,596 --> 00:36:27,876
Speaker 3: I said, yeah, I wrote that song. So I never

573
00:36:27,956 --> 00:36:32,556
Speaker 3: did back down, and uh, I had identified myself as

574
00:36:32,596 --> 00:36:34,516
Speaker 3: a songwriter and I wasn't going to back down.

575
00:36:35,476 --> 00:36:37,836
Speaker 1: What kind of gigs were you playing? Then?

576
00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:42,316
Speaker 3: Oh? Well, we played the Legion Hall. It was called

577
00:36:42,356 --> 00:36:46,316
Speaker 3: the Crosby Stomp Legion Hall, and it was teen dances.

578
00:36:46,716 --> 00:36:51,076
Speaker 3: And then over in a little town called Humble, Texas,

579
00:36:51,156 --> 00:36:56,356
Speaker 3: all these little outlying towns. They had legion halls and

580
00:36:56,556 --> 00:37:00,676
Speaker 3: teen canteens and that kind of thing. And we had

581
00:37:00,676 --> 00:37:04,916
Speaker 3: a band called the Arbitrators and we played we would

582
00:37:04,956 --> 00:37:08,916
Speaker 3: cover band, We played country songs, we played Beatles songs,

583
00:37:09,156 --> 00:37:11,876
Speaker 3: played beach boy. One of the guys in the in

584
00:37:12,076 --> 00:37:16,636
Speaker 3: the band had a falsetto voice like Brian Wilson, so

585
00:37:16,676 --> 00:37:20,716
Speaker 3: we could play beach Boys stuff. And we earned a

586
00:37:20,716 --> 00:37:24,516
Speaker 3: little bit of money, and I moved in with his family,

587
00:37:25,116 --> 00:37:29,516
Speaker 3: and eventually my parents left that house if that house

588
00:37:29,556 --> 00:37:32,636
Speaker 3: finally fell down because the water finally got the best

589
00:37:32,676 --> 00:37:36,716
Speaker 3: of it, and they moved out to the little town there.

590
00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:38,716
Speaker 3: They rented a place out there, and I moved back

591
00:37:38,716 --> 00:37:42,436
Speaker 3: in with my parents. Are probably somewhere around the junior

592
00:37:42,516 --> 00:37:43,356
Speaker 3: year of high school.

593
00:37:43,876 --> 00:37:46,636
Speaker 1: And then when did you start to think this could

594
00:37:46,676 --> 00:37:48,356
Speaker 1: be a career for me? This is what I want

595
00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:48,716
Speaker 1: to do.

596
00:37:50,156 --> 00:37:52,356
Speaker 3: It takes me a minute to think about that, because

597
00:37:52,716 --> 00:37:56,196
Speaker 3: I always wanted to do it, But it really, I

598
00:37:56,196 --> 00:38:00,036
Speaker 3: mean really, I mean I'd already been Emmy Lou Harrison

599
00:38:00,236 --> 00:38:03,636
Speaker 3: had recorded a couple of my songs, and I'd moved

600
00:38:03,676 --> 00:38:07,436
Speaker 3: to Los Angeles to be in her band and go

601
00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:09,036
Speaker 3: on tour with her. But I think it was when

602
00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:13,436
Speaker 3: Willie Nelson at the old Palamino Club unbern knows me

603
00:38:13,596 --> 00:38:15,356
Speaker 3: call me up on stage and said, I'm gonna do

604
00:38:15,356 --> 00:38:19,036
Speaker 3: a Rodney crow song and and uh called till I

605
00:38:19,036 --> 00:38:22,516
Speaker 3: Gain Controlled Again, which Emmy Lou had recorded first. And

606
00:38:22,596 --> 00:38:27,396
Speaker 3: I remember walking up there thinking, huh, this is like

607
00:38:27,476 --> 00:38:31,556
Speaker 3: I'm being knighted by King Arthur. I think this songwriting

608
00:38:31,596 --> 00:38:34,756
Speaker 3: thing is gonna work. And that was the first time

609
00:38:35,036 --> 00:38:39,636
Speaker 3: I ever had that thought, like, Okay, this is my career.

610
00:38:40,036 --> 00:38:43,396
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, because you already moved to Nashville by that point.

611
00:38:43,636 --> 00:38:46,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, this was this was five years after I'd moved

612
00:38:46,796 --> 00:38:47,436
Speaker 3: to Nashville.

613
00:38:47,716 --> 00:38:49,916
Speaker 1: Did you move to Nashville wanted to be a performer

614
00:38:49,996 --> 00:38:50,876
Speaker 1: or a songwriter?

615
00:38:52,276 --> 00:38:56,556
Speaker 3: I got to Nashville under false prechenses. I'd gone to Crowley,

616
00:38:56,596 --> 00:38:58,916
Speaker 3: Louisiana with a buddy of mine to do. We had

617
00:38:58,956 --> 00:39:02,436
Speaker 3: a duet thing, kind of a Simon and Garfunk wil

618
00:39:02,436 --> 00:39:05,996
Speaker 3: want to be And we went to Crowley and made

619
00:39:06,356 --> 00:39:10,036
Speaker 3: a record over there, and the produce or went off

620
00:39:10,076 --> 00:39:16,316
Speaker 3: to Nashville. Call me sometime later, a good six months later.

621
00:39:16,836 --> 00:39:18,436
Speaker 1: And said how old were you at this point?

622
00:39:19,116 --> 00:39:22,156
Speaker 3: Twenty one? He called me found me somehow. He said,

623
00:39:22,156 --> 00:39:25,636
Speaker 3: get up here to Nashville. Find Donovan, my buddy, my

624
00:39:25,716 --> 00:39:28,116
Speaker 3: college roommate who was I sang with. And he said,

625
00:39:28,116 --> 00:39:30,236
Speaker 3: get up here. I've signed you to a ten year

626
00:39:30,316 --> 00:39:34,196
Speaker 3: recording contract with Columbia Records and you're going on the

627
00:39:34,276 --> 00:39:37,236
Speaker 3: road with Kenny Rogers in the first edition for a

628
00:39:37,316 --> 00:39:43,556
Speaker 3: year opening. Okay, I'm into business. So we hopped and

629
00:39:43,596 --> 00:39:45,676
Speaker 3: we got in the car. We found Donovan and we

630
00:39:45,676 --> 00:39:48,556
Speaker 3: were off. We went there, but when we arrived in Nashville,

631
00:39:48,636 --> 00:39:51,636
Speaker 3: none of this was true. We went to Columbia Records,

632
00:39:52,356 --> 00:39:55,276
Speaker 3: you know, reported for duty at Columbia Records and walked

633
00:39:55,276 --> 00:40:01,876
Speaker 3: in and you know, the secretary intake secretary is like who.

634
00:40:02,556 --> 00:40:05,796
Speaker 3: So finally somebody three tiers up came down and said, look,

635
00:40:05,836 --> 00:40:07,796
Speaker 3: we've never heard of you. You don't have a recording

636
00:40:07,836 --> 00:40:12,036
Speaker 3: deal here. And so that's how we realize this is

637
00:40:12,796 --> 00:40:16,356
Speaker 3: a sham. And as it turns out, the producer had

638
00:40:16,556 --> 00:40:20,156
Speaker 3: sold the tapes in the publishing for a bus ticket

639
00:40:20,236 --> 00:40:23,236
Speaker 3: back to Houston, and there I was in Nashville, so

640
00:40:23,276 --> 00:40:24,436
Speaker 3: I decided to stay.

641
00:40:25,676 --> 00:40:28,076
Speaker 1: He just wanted you out of Houston so you wouldn't

642
00:40:28,876 --> 00:40:29,556
Speaker 1: make trouble.

643
00:40:30,116 --> 00:40:33,636
Speaker 3: The backstory on him was that God, he was a brutal, brutal,

644
00:40:33,756 --> 00:40:38,596
Speaker 3: brutal alcoholic. I have a lot of compassion for the

645
00:40:38,716 --> 00:40:44,676
Speaker 3: amount of alcoholic to consume, and God knows what goes on,

646
00:40:45,116 --> 00:40:49,276
Speaker 3: you know, when you're a blackout drunk. But it got

647
00:40:49,316 --> 00:40:53,516
Speaker 3: me to Nashville, and within a short period of time

648
00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:57,876
Speaker 3: I bumped into Guy Clark and a couple of guys,

649
00:40:58,196 --> 00:41:02,036
Speaker 3: a guy named Skinny Dennis Sanchez, who's an upright bass player,

650
00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:04,356
Speaker 3: and a guy named Richard Dobson. And they took me

651
00:41:04,396 --> 00:41:07,516
Speaker 3: in because I was washing dishes making a little money,

652
00:41:07,556 --> 00:41:10,636
Speaker 3: and they said, I you know, I was seven or

653
00:41:10,636 --> 00:41:14,436
Speaker 3: eight years younger than they were and making a little

654
00:41:14,436 --> 00:41:17,556
Speaker 3: bit of money. So they had an extra bed. But

655
00:41:17,676 --> 00:41:21,556
Speaker 3: this house became I mean, it was Paris in the

656
00:41:21,596 --> 00:41:26,476
Speaker 3: twenties there in its own way, because Guy Clark was

657
00:41:26,476 --> 00:41:29,476
Speaker 3: was Skinny Dennis had been a bass player in a

658
00:41:29,916 --> 00:41:35,916
Speaker 3: folk trio he had in California, and so all of

659
00:41:35,956 --> 00:41:39,516
Speaker 3: these guys started towns van Zant started coming in and

660
00:41:39,556 --> 00:41:42,676
Speaker 3: out of that place, and so it was kind of

661
00:41:42,716 --> 00:41:53,996
Speaker 3: ground zero for songwriting pre record deal and because that's

662
00:41:54,036 --> 00:41:57,356
Speaker 3: where Steve Earle first came around and there and Dave

663
00:41:57,516 --> 00:42:02,756
Speaker 3: Uncle and it was just a salon and towns. Van

664
00:42:02,836 --> 00:42:06,756
Speaker 3: Zante was traveling. He was already a wheeler dealer folk singer,

665
00:42:06,796 --> 00:42:09,756
Speaker 3: but he would come through Nashville. And that's the first

666
00:42:09,756 --> 00:42:13,716
Speaker 3: place I heard Poncho and Lefty in like three am

667
00:42:13,916 --> 00:42:18,356
Speaker 3: in this house on Ackland Avenue and in Hillsborough Village

668
00:42:18,356 --> 00:42:19,036
Speaker 3: in Nashville.

669
00:42:19,516 --> 00:42:21,316
Speaker 1: You were sitting around and he played it.

670
00:42:21,556 --> 00:42:26,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, wellbody. We would gather around every night, pretty

671
00:42:26,276 --> 00:42:29,196
Speaker 3: much five nights a week at least in that house.

672
00:42:29,996 --> 00:42:34,236
Speaker 3: Songwriters would come in. It was in Guy Clark was

673
00:42:34,236 --> 00:42:38,436
Speaker 3: the curator of this mindset around then because Chris Krostofferson

674
00:42:38,556 --> 00:42:42,236
Speaker 3: had done for Nashville what Bob Dylan had done for

675
00:42:42,276 --> 00:42:47,956
Speaker 3: Greenwich Village. Nashville music business wasn't corporate then, but it

676
00:42:48,076 --> 00:42:53,316
Speaker 3: was a closed community. But Chris Kostofferson opened it up

677
00:42:53,356 --> 00:42:59,276
Speaker 3: to these kind of would be poet songwriters, which I

678
00:42:59,316 --> 00:43:02,836
Speaker 3: fell in with. I didn't have any songs worthy of

679
00:43:03,556 --> 00:43:06,196
Speaker 3: playing in the wee hours, but I knew all of

680
00:43:06,236 --> 00:43:09,116
Speaker 3: these old Appalachian dead baby songs that I learned from

681
00:43:09,316 --> 00:43:13,196
Speaker 3: my father, and I could throw them out and stay

682
00:43:13,196 --> 00:43:15,556
Speaker 3: in the room that Guy Clark would say to me,

683
00:43:16,236 --> 00:43:18,836
Speaker 3: you said, just shut up and listen you might learn something.

684
00:43:19,396 --> 00:43:21,916
Speaker 1: And he was right, what did you learn from? Particularly

685
00:43:21,956 --> 00:43:23,956
Speaker 1: Guy clark self editing?

686
00:43:25,236 --> 00:43:26,916
Speaker 3: It took a while for at the dawn on me,

687
00:43:26,996 --> 00:43:30,116
Speaker 3: but Guy Clark is probably the as songwriters go that

688
00:43:30,236 --> 00:43:33,676
Speaker 3: I know personally. He's probably the best self editor I've

689
00:43:33,716 --> 00:43:37,436
Speaker 3: ever been around, because when I started drifting over to

690
00:43:37,436 --> 00:43:40,396
Speaker 3: his house and you're showing me what he was working on,

691
00:43:40,516 --> 00:43:45,836
Speaker 3: he would lines that other songwriters would not elbow it out.

692
00:43:45,876 --> 00:43:50,236
Speaker 3: For anything in the world, he'd elbow it out and say, hey,

693
00:43:50,556 --> 00:43:54,356
Speaker 3: it doesn't this is not serving the narrative. It's got

694
00:43:54,396 --> 00:43:56,476
Speaker 3: to go. That was important.

695
00:43:56,836 --> 00:43:59,676
Speaker 1: Did he help you do that with your songs? No.

696
00:44:00,876 --> 00:44:04,516
Speaker 3: The only thing he would do is when I had

697
00:44:04,556 --> 00:44:08,836
Speaker 3: a new song. And his wife, Susannah was equally as

698
00:44:09,756 --> 00:44:13,156
Speaker 3: formidable on this front. But I'd go over with a

699
00:44:13,196 --> 00:44:17,196
Speaker 3: new song and he said, Okay, put your guitar down,

700
00:44:17,276 --> 00:44:19,876
Speaker 3: now look me in the eye and say those words

701
00:44:19,916 --> 00:44:24,716
Speaker 3: to me. And he had these like hawkeyes, you know,

702
00:44:24,916 --> 00:44:29,276
Speaker 3: really intense staring and I realized when if I tried

703
00:44:29,316 --> 00:44:31,796
Speaker 3: to say the words to him that whenever I wanted

704
00:44:31,796 --> 00:44:36,316
Speaker 3: to avert my eyes away from him, the lines weren't true.

705
00:44:37,436 --> 00:44:40,356
Speaker 3: And it was a really valuable lesson to learn, because

706
00:44:41,316 --> 00:44:43,836
Speaker 3: when it was a really subpar line, or something that

707
00:44:43,876 --> 00:44:47,636
Speaker 3: didn't work, a soft rhyme, or just something that didn't

708
00:44:47,676 --> 00:44:51,796
Speaker 3: move the narrative along, his eyes would narrow and I

709
00:44:51,836 --> 00:44:54,996
Speaker 3: would be I would feel ashamed that I had to

710
00:44:55,876 --> 00:44:59,236
Speaker 3: expose it. It was a good lesson.

711
00:44:59,556 --> 00:45:02,996
Speaker 1: That's a tough lesson, though, was say, have you ever

712
00:45:02,996 --> 00:45:04,276
Speaker 1: done that with other songwriters?

713
00:45:04,676 --> 00:45:07,956
Speaker 3: Look, I have these I host these songwriting camps, you know,

714
00:45:08,076 --> 00:45:12,756
Speaker 3: one hundred and twenties so songwriters come to find out about songwriting,

715
00:45:12,796 --> 00:45:15,636
Speaker 3: and now and again I'll say, okay, you want to

716
00:45:15,676 --> 00:45:18,556
Speaker 3: know how I learned to do it, and I get

717
00:45:18,636 --> 00:45:22,716
Speaker 3: him to put the guitar down and speak their lyrics

718
00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:26,276
Speaker 3: to me. I don't think I had the intense eyeballs

719
00:45:26,316 --> 00:45:29,516
Speaker 3: that Guy clark had, because some of them would gaily

720
00:45:29,676 --> 00:45:32,596
Speaker 3: just look me in the eyes, smiling and really tell

721
00:45:32,676 --> 00:45:35,316
Speaker 3: me really sub part of the lyrics and happy that

722
00:45:35,356 --> 00:45:35,916
Speaker 3: they had.

723
00:45:37,716 --> 00:45:39,836
Speaker 1: What is it about putting the guitar down and saying

724
00:45:39,876 --> 00:45:42,916
Speaker 1: it that exposes them?

725
00:45:43,596 --> 00:45:45,436
Speaker 3: Mind you? I don't know if you know Guy Clarker

726
00:45:45,476 --> 00:45:48,036
Speaker 3: have any recollection of what he was like. He was

727
00:45:48,476 --> 00:45:56,676
Speaker 3: an intense man and a beautiful writer. Himming way ish

728
00:45:57,236 --> 00:45:59,956
Speaker 3: in his own way, and to look them in the

729
00:45:59,996 --> 00:46:06,876
Speaker 3: eye with something inferior was a daunting proposition. It was

730
00:46:07,756 --> 00:46:10,636
Speaker 3: just the perfect thing for me at the time.

731
00:46:11,636 --> 00:46:14,476
Speaker 1: Did you ever present songs to Towns van Zant?

732
00:46:15,876 --> 00:46:20,796
Speaker 3: Towns was not well. First, the only song that Towns

733
00:46:20,836 --> 00:46:27,676
Speaker 3: ever kind of nodded toward me was a song Until

734
00:46:27,756 --> 00:46:30,076
Speaker 3: I Gained Control Again, which was the one that was

735
00:46:30,876 --> 00:46:35,316
Speaker 3: I wrote that early on and I got there and

736
00:46:35,756 --> 00:46:38,516
Speaker 3: was able to move along with that song for a

737
00:46:38,556 --> 00:46:40,436
Speaker 3: good But that's the only one that he ever kind

738
00:46:40,436 --> 00:46:47,076
Speaker 3: of nodded approval of. But Towns wasn't as generous as

739
00:46:47,796 --> 00:46:54,596
Speaker 3: Guy was. He was incredibly gifted poet. But Guy had

740
00:46:54,956 --> 00:46:59,516
Speaker 3: for all of his imposing will. He was a generous

741
00:47:00,076 --> 00:47:05,356
Speaker 3: artist and he shared his knowledge pretty freely.

742
00:47:06,316 --> 00:47:10,516
Speaker 1: But Towns was more he held me We're back. Yeah.

743
00:47:10,676 --> 00:47:16,116
Speaker 3: Towns was competitive. Okay, Towns was super competitive, which is

744
00:47:16,116 --> 00:47:18,956
Speaker 3: a good thing, you know, a good thing for I

745
00:47:18,996 --> 00:47:20,116
Speaker 3: got no problem with that.

746
00:47:20,316 --> 00:47:23,636
Speaker 1: So when you're when you're sitting around doing songs, it's

747
00:47:23,636 --> 00:47:24,196
Speaker 1: a contest.

748
00:47:24,236 --> 00:47:28,596
Speaker 3: Well, you know that, you know the Donovan and Bob

749
00:47:28,676 --> 00:47:32,316
Speaker 3: Dylan at the in London in the hotel, you know,

750
00:47:33,476 --> 00:47:36,756
Speaker 3: Savoy whatever, hotel they where where Donovan's on the floor

751
00:47:36,796 --> 00:47:40,036
Speaker 3: and he plays this uh really kind.

752
00:47:39,796 --> 00:47:43,436
Speaker 1: Of mealy tweet little love song.

753
00:47:43,916 --> 00:47:47,596
Speaker 3: You know, it's just going nowhere, and Dylan reaches over

754
00:47:47,756 --> 00:47:51,796
Speaker 3: and gets a guitar and sing Crimson Flames tied to

755
00:47:51,836 --> 00:47:55,276
Speaker 3: my ears. It's like I was so much older than

756
00:47:55,356 --> 00:48:00,676
Speaker 3: I'm younger than whatever it was. It's just annihilated. I

757
00:48:00,796 --> 00:48:03,916
Speaker 3: bring that up because that's you know, Towns had that too,

758
00:48:04,116 --> 00:48:06,956
Speaker 3: and and early on, if if I'm sitting listening to

759
00:48:06,996 --> 00:48:10,156
Speaker 3: Poncho and Lefty, I was smart enough to not make

760
00:48:10,196 --> 00:48:16,076
Speaker 3: that mistake because he had hit me with with any

761
00:48:16,156 --> 00:48:18,036
Speaker 3: one of those songs he had written by then and

762
00:48:18,236 --> 00:48:22,236
Speaker 3: just shrunk me down to nothing. So it was better

763
00:48:22,356 --> 00:48:28,476
Speaker 3: to observe and to listen and see just how Towns

764
00:48:28,556 --> 00:48:33,756
Speaker 3: was able to pluck out of the ether real poetry,

765
00:48:34,236 --> 00:48:38,356
Speaker 3: whereas with Guy it was closer to the experience. Was

766
00:48:38,356 --> 00:48:42,076
Speaker 3: that he was he was a working songwriter. He was

767
00:48:42,276 --> 00:48:47,156
Speaker 3: you know, he was somehow crafting it on the desk

768
00:48:47,236 --> 00:48:50,276
Speaker 3: in front of him, where Towns was plucking it out

769
00:48:50,276 --> 00:48:51,636
Speaker 3: of the ether.

770
00:48:52,036 --> 00:48:53,636
Speaker 1: Was Towns competitive with Guy?

771
00:48:54,876 --> 00:48:59,796
Speaker 3: Yes, Towns was competitive with Guy, but Guy ignored it.

772
00:49:00,796 --> 00:49:07,236
Speaker 3: I say this because I watched those two closely. Yeah, yeah,

773
00:49:07,716 --> 00:49:11,476
Speaker 3: Now I'll tell you about Townsman's was. Had Towns come

774
00:49:11,556 --> 00:49:15,036
Speaker 3: along thirty years later, he would have been a champion

775
00:49:15,196 --> 00:49:19,116
Speaker 3: skateboarder because we had There was one thing that I

776
00:49:19,196 --> 00:49:23,036
Speaker 3: did do that that that Towns and I were friendly,

777
00:49:24,116 --> 00:49:26,876
Speaker 3: is that somehow we had we got a hold of

778
00:49:26,876 --> 00:49:30,716
Speaker 3: a skateboard and there was there was a slope in

779
00:49:30,796 --> 00:49:34,236
Speaker 3: Hillsborough Village and we would set up beer cans and

780
00:49:34,356 --> 00:49:39,116
Speaker 3: slalom on skateboards. This is way before skateboarding was anything.

781
00:49:40,076 --> 00:49:44,556
Speaker 3: I didn't have an act for it. But Towns was fluid.

782
00:49:45,956 --> 00:49:51,276
Speaker 3: The man was extremely physically talented and he was a

783
00:49:51,316 --> 00:49:55,076
Speaker 3: lot to take in. But he would he would slalom

784
00:49:55,116 --> 00:49:57,876
Speaker 3: through those beer cans as if he was he was

785
00:49:57,916 --> 00:49:59,036
Speaker 3: actually made of water.

786
00:50:00,956 --> 00:50:03,876
Speaker 1: Amazing. I didn't know that, yeah about him. Did you

787
00:50:03,916 --> 00:50:07,276
Speaker 1: see signs back then of his later mania and his

788
00:50:07,276 --> 00:50:08,396
Speaker 1: his difficulties?

789
00:50:08,596 --> 00:50:13,556
Speaker 3: Yeah? Is I mean the songwriting community around then with

790
00:50:14,396 --> 00:50:16,756
Speaker 3: Amy Martin had a place there, and when Towns would

791
00:50:16,756 --> 00:50:19,196
Speaker 3: come into town, usually he'd be a couple of days

792
00:50:19,276 --> 00:50:23,036
Speaker 3: up and kicking Heroin up in Amy Martin's place. While

793
00:50:23,076 --> 00:50:25,996
Speaker 3: the while all of the want to be songwriters, including me,

794
00:50:26,076 --> 00:50:28,436
Speaker 3: were down in the in the garden. They're waiting for

795
00:50:28,516 --> 00:50:31,916
Speaker 3: Towns to come down so we could play. But we

796
00:50:31,956 --> 00:50:34,436
Speaker 3: would all sit around playing songs that he'd these really

797
00:50:34,596 --> 00:50:38,796
Speaker 3: inferior songs at each other. Meanwhile, one of the masters

798
00:50:38,836 --> 00:50:42,476
Speaker 3: was upstairs kicking heroin. It was it was pretty romantic.

799
00:50:42,956 --> 00:50:43,876
Speaker 1: Are you competitive?

800
00:50:45,116 --> 00:50:49,716
Speaker 3: No, I'm not. I'm not competitive. Wish I were. I

801
00:50:49,796 --> 00:50:53,676
Speaker 3: don't think I could host these songwriting camps that I

802
00:50:53,796 --> 00:50:57,036
Speaker 3: do if I were competitive, because you have to. You

803
00:50:57,076 --> 00:51:00,956
Speaker 3: have to be a service to these people who pay

804
00:51:01,036 --> 00:51:04,996
Speaker 3: money to come be around me and see what they

805
00:51:04,996 --> 00:51:05,476
Speaker 3: can learn.

806
00:51:06,476 --> 00:51:09,716
Speaker 1: Well, you've also had so many class oberations.

807
00:51:10,476 --> 00:51:13,156
Speaker 3: Yeah, And also I was married to Roseanne Cash too,

808
00:51:13,276 --> 00:51:18,796
Speaker 3: and I learned my lesson there because I was producing

809
00:51:18,836 --> 00:51:22,596
Speaker 3: her records and she shot to the roof with the

810
00:51:22,636 --> 00:51:26,836
Speaker 3: records I was helping her make, and I didn't at

811
00:51:26,836 --> 00:51:28,156
Speaker 3: that particular.

812
00:51:27,716 --> 00:51:29,476
Speaker 1: Time was that difficult.

813
00:51:29,876 --> 00:51:35,796
Speaker 3: It was difficult, and it had I been more competitive,

814
00:51:35,836 --> 00:51:38,556
Speaker 3: I would have probably hit the road because I wouldn't

815
00:51:38,556 --> 00:51:41,196
Speaker 3: have been able to take it. But I had a

816
00:51:41,276 --> 00:51:45,436
Speaker 3: sense that, you know, I'm part of this, and what

817
00:51:46,876 --> 00:51:50,316
Speaker 3: I'm bringing to this is not easily recognizable. Because I

818
00:51:50,396 --> 00:51:56,276
Speaker 3: was helping her with material and helping her get there,

819
00:51:56,316 --> 00:51:59,876
Speaker 3: and she deserved every bit of it. She outdistanced me.

820
00:51:59,996 --> 00:52:01,276
Speaker 3: Eventually I caught up.

821
00:52:03,116 --> 00:52:05,676
Speaker 2: Well, last break and we'll be back with Rodney Crowell.

822
00:52:10,236 --> 00:52:15,636
Speaker 1: You are the third ex son in law of Johnny

823
00:52:15,676 --> 00:52:20,476
Speaker 1: Cash that we've had on the show. Yeah, and Marty Stewart.

824
00:52:20,476 --> 00:52:23,916
Speaker 1: What Marty Stewart and we've had Nick Low. Nick Low

825
00:52:23,996 --> 00:52:26,796
Speaker 1: certainly had a story about meeting Johnny Cash for the

826
00:52:26,796 --> 00:52:29,516
Speaker 1: first time. Do you remember your first time?

827
00:52:30,436 --> 00:52:33,716
Speaker 3: Well, the first time I remember was at the Beverly

828
00:52:34,556 --> 00:52:38,756
Speaker 3: Hills Hotel in one of the bungalows. He and June

829
00:52:38,796 --> 00:52:45,716
Speaker 3: had a bungalow out back, and Roseanne was bringing her

830
00:52:45,756 --> 00:52:51,556
Speaker 3: boyfriend to dinner candlelit dinner in a Beverly Hills Hotel bungalow.

831
00:52:52,476 --> 00:52:53,356
Speaker 1: Were you nervous?

832
00:52:53,636 --> 00:52:56,676
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, as nervous as I could be, but they

833
00:52:56,676 --> 00:53:02,876
Speaker 3: were sweet and very accommodating in June. I actually was

834
00:53:02,956 --> 00:53:05,236
Speaker 3: able to tell June the story that when I was

835
00:53:06,316 --> 00:53:10,396
Speaker 3: the Carter family, you know, the in the the late thirties,

836
00:53:10,436 --> 00:53:13,556
Speaker 3: they had made all of these exit It was one

837
00:53:13,596 --> 00:53:17,396
Speaker 3: of the border radio stations where they Carter Family would

838
00:53:17,396 --> 00:53:20,756
Speaker 3: come out live. But my grandmother and I would listen

839
00:53:20,836 --> 00:53:24,476
Speaker 3: to the Carter Family rebroadcast in the fifty mid fifties,

840
00:53:25,636 --> 00:53:30,436
Speaker 3: and June was an eleven year old comedian at the time,

841
00:53:31,356 --> 00:53:33,916
Speaker 3: and so I had a crush on her, you know,

842
00:53:34,076 --> 00:53:35,676
Speaker 3: the five year old kid. I had a crush on

843
00:53:35,716 --> 00:53:39,276
Speaker 3: an eleven year old girl I was hearing on the radio,

844
00:53:39,356 --> 00:53:41,396
Speaker 3: and so I got to tell her that story and

845
00:53:41,436 --> 00:53:45,156
Speaker 3: she was charmed by it, and so we were good

846
00:53:45,156 --> 00:53:48,356
Speaker 3: from there. Well, I did have my drunken run in

847
00:53:48,596 --> 00:53:51,516
Speaker 3: with John later on. Oh yeah, in Jamaica.

848
00:53:52,396 --> 00:53:54,476
Speaker 1: Oh okay, was this after you were married or.

849
00:53:54,716 --> 00:53:57,476
Speaker 3: Now it was before we were summoned to Jamaica because

850
00:53:57,516 --> 00:54:01,396
Speaker 3: we were living together by then and those were against

851
00:54:01,396 --> 00:54:05,236
Speaker 3: the rules. So I did a little bit too much

852
00:54:05,316 --> 00:54:11,036
Speaker 3: drinking between La and Montego Bay in the flights, and

853
00:54:11,076 --> 00:54:15,116
Speaker 3: so by the time the sleeping situation came around, I

854
00:54:15,276 --> 00:54:18,276
Speaker 3: was felt like I had to stand my ground because

855
00:54:18,756 --> 00:54:22,276
Speaker 3: I heard some talk down the hallway and stepped around

856
00:54:22,316 --> 00:54:26,796
Speaker 3: and Roseanne was said, well, you know, we we lived together,

857
00:54:26,876 --> 00:54:31,596
Speaker 3: and so I stepped in all cavalier, like, yeah, well yeah,

858
00:54:31,716 --> 00:54:33,396
Speaker 3: you know, I'm not going to be a hypocrites, you know,

859
00:54:33,516 --> 00:54:38,076
Speaker 3: as we sleep together in La, you know, And he said,

860
00:54:38,396 --> 00:54:40,796
Speaker 3: you know, he looked, and I've told this story before,

861
00:54:40,876 --> 00:54:43,916
Speaker 3: but it bears repeating. He looked at me and he said, son,

862
00:54:44,636 --> 00:54:46,516
Speaker 3: I don't know you well enough to miss you if

863
00:54:46,556 --> 00:54:50,396
Speaker 3: you were to leave with that voice, yeah, voice of

864
00:54:50,396 --> 00:54:54,996
Speaker 3: Abraham Lincoln. So that sobered me right up, and I said, yes, sir,

865
00:54:55,036 --> 00:54:58,276
Speaker 3: you're right, and I wandered off down the hall and

866
00:54:58,316 --> 00:54:58,876
Speaker 3: went to bed.

867
00:55:00,156 --> 00:55:04,316
Speaker 1: I would have left, but yeah, I want to get

868
00:55:04,316 --> 00:55:07,796
Speaker 1: back to Roseanne, but I first want to talk about

869
00:55:08,036 --> 00:55:11,916
Speaker 1: your time with Emmy Harris Emmy Lou because she had

870
00:55:12,636 --> 00:55:14,236
Speaker 1: recorded one of your songs and then asked you to

871
00:55:14,316 --> 00:55:16,756
Speaker 1: join her band. Yeah, and who else was in the

872
00:55:16,796 --> 00:55:18,316
Speaker 1: band when when you were with her?

873
00:55:19,116 --> 00:55:20,956
Speaker 3: Kind of back up a little bit. I was in Austin.

874
00:55:21,036 --> 00:55:24,916
Speaker 3: I had left Nashville, but Emmy came through like early

875
00:55:24,956 --> 00:55:28,036
Speaker 3: in January nineteen seventy five and was playing the old

876
00:55:28,076 --> 00:55:31,676
Speaker 3: Armadilla World Headquarters. And by then she had recorded a

877
00:55:31,716 --> 00:55:35,916
Speaker 3: song of mine, Bluebird Wine. So somehow she found me

878
00:55:35,956 --> 00:55:39,596
Speaker 3: and said, come and sit in with me at you know,

879
00:55:39,836 --> 00:55:43,076
Speaker 3: my gig at Armadilla World Headquarters. And so I went

880
00:55:43,116 --> 00:55:46,636
Speaker 3: and we sang something. I don't know what we're saying,

881
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:50,716
Speaker 3: but after her set, you know, she said, Hey, I'm

882
00:55:50,756 --> 00:55:54,356
Speaker 3: going to LA tomorrow. You want to go? And I said,

883
00:55:54,636 --> 00:55:59,476
Speaker 3: well yeah, and she said I got an extra ticket.

884
00:56:00,316 --> 00:56:02,956
Speaker 3: She doesn't I was with Emmy a couple of nights

885
00:56:02,996 --> 00:56:05,996
Speaker 3: ago and and she doesn't remember where she got this

886
00:56:06,076 --> 00:56:09,956
Speaker 3: extra ticket. I certainly never knew. But I flew from

887
00:56:09,956 --> 00:56:12,996
Speaker 3: Austin to Los Angeles with Emmy Lou on somebody else's

888
00:56:13,036 --> 00:56:18,036
Speaker 3: ticket in nineteen seventy five and stayed seven years, and

889
00:56:18,356 --> 00:56:22,556
Speaker 3: unbeknownt and me, she was putting together a band and

890
00:56:22,716 --> 00:56:24,876
Speaker 3: had decided that she wanted me in it.

891
00:56:25,356 --> 00:56:27,436
Speaker 1: I think there might be there might be a guitarist

892
00:56:27,516 --> 00:56:29,596
Speaker 1: in Austin who's still waiting for his ticket.

893
00:56:31,756 --> 00:56:36,916
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, But that band turned out to be half

894
00:56:36,916 --> 00:56:39,636
Speaker 3: of it came from Elvis's band and it and it

895
00:56:39,716 --> 00:56:42,756
Speaker 3: was because of the band that had done Grievous Angel

896
00:56:42,996 --> 00:56:46,076
Speaker 3: with Graham Parsons and Emmy, James Burton and Glenn Harden

897
00:56:46,116 --> 00:56:47,356
Speaker 3: and Emery Gordy.

898
00:56:47,556 --> 00:56:48,996
Speaker 1: So they were all still in the band.

899
00:56:49,196 --> 00:56:51,796
Speaker 3: They were in the Hot band, and as John Ware

900
00:56:51,836 --> 00:56:56,556
Speaker 3: and Hank DeVito and myself we called ourselves the Hippies,

901
00:56:57,396 --> 00:57:01,396
Speaker 3: and James and Glindie and Emory were the pros and

902
00:57:01,476 --> 00:57:04,556
Speaker 3: off we went on a world tour. It's in nineteen

903
00:57:04,556 --> 00:57:05,996
Speaker 3: seventy five with him.

904
00:57:06,196 --> 00:57:08,836
Speaker 1: You've mentioned Till I Gained Control Again a couple of times.

905
00:57:09,836 --> 00:57:12,716
Speaker 1: I have a running argument with my wife over whose

906
00:57:12,796 --> 00:57:15,476
Speaker 1: version is better, yours or Emmy LUs Oh.

907
00:57:16,356 --> 00:57:21,076
Speaker 3: My particular recording of Until I Gain Control Again is

908
00:57:21,116 --> 00:57:24,716
Speaker 3: not up to snuff. I produced that, and I spent

909
00:57:24,836 --> 00:57:30,236
Speaker 3: a lot more time on the musicians then I spent

910
00:57:30,436 --> 00:57:35,116
Speaker 3: on getting a proper vocal performance out of myself.

911
00:57:35,316 --> 00:57:38,476
Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to disagree. I think it's a masterpiece

912
00:57:39,956 --> 00:57:41,036
Speaker 1: your version of that song.

913
00:57:41,796 --> 00:57:43,956
Speaker 3: I wish I could share your opinion about that, but

914
00:57:43,996 --> 00:57:47,076
Speaker 3: I hear it and I go, oh, man, I wish

915
00:57:47,156 --> 00:57:48,796
Speaker 3: you would have been paying attention.

916
00:57:49,716 --> 00:57:51,316
Speaker 1: You know what I love about that song is what

917
00:57:51,356 --> 00:57:54,356
Speaker 1: I love about a lot of your songs. And this

918
00:57:54,396 --> 00:57:58,236
Speaker 1: is going to sound vague, so forgive me, but often

919
00:57:58,276 --> 00:58:01,356
Speaker 1: your song seem to me there's a theme running through

920
00:58:01,396 --> 00:58:04,716
Speaker 1: which is basically what it means to be a man,

921
00:58:05,036 --> 00:58:08,796
Speaker 1: in relation to women, in relation to yourself, in relation

922
00:58:08,876 --> 00:58:12,316
Speaker 1: to the world, how you kind of proceed in the world.

923
00:58:12,396 --> 00:58:14,756
Speaker 1: That seems to be something that is in a lot

924
00:58:14,796 --> 00:58:17,356
Speaker 1: of your songs. Simple on the new album made me

925
00:58:17,396 --> 00:58:19,956
Speaker 1: think of that. Yeah, very much.

926
00:58:19,756 --> 00:58:27,276
Speaker 3: Could be Susannah Clark. Susannah was probably twelve eleven, twelve

927
00:58:27,356 --> 00:58:30,156
Speaker 3: years older than me when I met her in my

928
00:58:30,356 --> 00:58:35,756
Speaker 3: early twenties, and she said to me clearly, she said,

929
00:58:35,796 --> 00:58:38,476
Speaker 3: and it, you know in your early twenties is if

930
00:58:38,476 --> 00:58:41,916
Speaker 3: I meet you meet a woman, or at that particular time,

931
00:58:41,996 --> 00:58:46,116
Speaker 3: it's like I was on the make, you know. And

932
00:58:46,196 --> 00:58:51,516
Speaker 3: Susanna held up her hand and said, hang on, you know,

933
00:58:51,796 --> 00:58:53,916
Speaker 3: I'm gonna teach you to be friends with a woman.

934
00:58:55,596 --> 00:58:58,756
Speaker 3: Valuable lesson for me at the time. And I listened

935
00:58:58,796 --> 00:59:03,436
Speaker 3: to her and we developed a friendship, a real friendship

936
00:59:03,476 --> 00:59:06,996
Speaker 3: and a real We had a long running conversation she

937
00:59:07,076 --> 00:59:12,876
Speaker 3: and I and then Emmy Lou comes along, and Emmy

938
00:59:12,916 --> 00:59:17,116
Speaker 3: and I are really close friends to this day. And

939
00:59:17,396 --> 00:59:21,716
Speaker 3: I think it started at that particular time. I have

940
00:59:21,956 --> 00:59:26,516
Speaker 3: really close I probably have more close women friends than

941
00:59:26,556 --> 00:59:30,796
Speaker 3: I do men friends. It's just been that way, and

942
00:59:30,836 --> 00:59:35,036
Speaker 3: I think it started with Susannah. My friendship with Mary Carr,

943
00:59:35,036 --> 00:59:38,836
Speaker 3: we're close friends. We talk all the time. It's not romantic.

944
00:59:39,916 --> 00:59:44,076
Speaker 3: It's brother and sisterhood. And I think maybe maybe that's

945
00:59:44,076 --> 00:59:47,396
Speaker 3: what you're talking about. And also I have four daughters

946
00:59:48,036 --> 00:59:53,076
Speaker 3: who have you know, will tan my hide if I

947
00:59:53,156 --> 00:59:56,836
Speaker 3: get a little too far ahead of myself.

948
00:59:58,756 --> 01:00:00,716
Speaker 1: Have you ever had to give their boyfriends the speech

949
01:00:00,756 --> 01:00:01,956
Speaker 1: Johnny Cash gave you.

950
01:00:02,676 --> 01:00:06,396
Speaker 3: Got I wish I really would like to pull up. Well,

951
01:00:06,396 --> 01:00:10,476
Speaker 3: you know, I've had to call them on their foolishness,

952
01:00:10,556 --> 01:00:13,516
Speaker 3: but I've never been able to come up with my

953
01:00:13,636 --> 01:00:16,636
Speaker 3: own line that would match. I don't know you well

954
01:00:16,756 --> 01:00:18,236
Speaker 3: enough to miss you if you were to leave.

955
01:00:18,876 --> 01:00:20,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that should be in a song.

956
01:00:20,756 --> 01:00:20,956
Speaker 3: You know.

957
01:00:21,156 --> 01:00:23,756
Speaker 1: You did a great version of I walked the Line

958
01:00:23,756 --> 01:00:27,156
Speaker 1: with Johnny Cash mm hm, which is really about a

959
01:00:27,276 --> 01:00:30,956
Speaker 1: kid hearing it. Yeah, and that is very That is

960
01:00:30,956 --> 01:00:34,876
Speaker 1: a song about what it means to be a man. Yeah,

961
01:00:34,916 --> 01:00:36,956
Speaker 1: and you re harmonized it, which is what I loved

962
01:00:37,036 --> 01:00:37,756
Speaker 1: his sections.

963
01:00:37,916 --> 01:00:44,036
Speaker 3: Yeah. This was after Roseanne and I split the blanket

964
01:00:44,716 --> 01:00:46,836
Speaker 3: and I called him one day and I said, hey, man,

965
01:00:46,876 --> 01:00:51,716
Speaker 3: we wrote a song because I had been trying to

966
01:00:51,756 --> 01:00:54,036
Speaker 3: recapture the first time I heard I Walk the Line

967
01:00:54,076 --> 01:00:57,476
Speaker 3: in a fishing trip. So he came to the studio.

968
01:00:57,516 --> 01:00:59,076
Speaker 3: I said, I may of you come and sing on this.

969
01:00:59,116 --> 01:01:02,156
Speaker 3: So he came to the studio thinking that he was

970
01:01:02,196 --> 01:01:06,356
Speaker 3: going to be singing some version of his song. I

971
01:01:06,356 --> 01:01:08,556
Speaker 3: sat there with a guitar and I started banging on

972
01:01:08,596 --> 01:01:11,516
Speaker 3: the guitar and it got to the chorus where I

973
01:01:11,636 --> 01:01:16,716
Speaker 3: used his lyric to make a chorus, which took me

974
01:01:16,756 --> 01:01:20,076
Speaker 3: a long time to figure out because I wrote all

975
01:01:20,196 --> 01:01:23,956
Speaker 3: kind of choruses for that song that just sounded like

976
01:01:24,996 --> 01:01:28,116
Speaker 3: child's play. And then I hit on his words and

977
01:01:28,116 --> 01:01:30,956
Speaker 3: it fit. And so he came and I'm singing it,

978
01:01:30,996 --> 01:01:33,476
Speaker 3: and his eyes and narrowed, you know, and he said,

979
01:01:34,396 --> 01:01:36,396
Speaker 3: he said, man, you've got a lot of nerve changing

980
01:01:36,516 --> 01:01:41,716
Speaker 3: my melody. And I said yeah, and you're just the

981
01:01:41,796 --> 01:01:43,876
Speaker 3: guy to go out there in the studio and do it.

982
01:01:44,916 --> 01:01:50,676
Speaker 3: So he walked out there and did two passes and

983
01:01:51,156 --> 01:01:53,356
Speaker 3: looked at him and he said, well that do and

984
01:01:53,396 --> 01:01:56,996
Speaker 3: I said, yes, sir, that will do. Meanwhile, he had

985
01:01:57,036 --> 01:02:00,196
Speaker 3: a he had a lunch date with Bonnie rait she

986
01:02:00,836 --> 01:02:03,476
Speaker 3: came into the studio. I guess that's where she was

987
01:02:03,516 --> 01:02:06,956
Speaker 3: going to meet him, And so we played it back

988
01:02:07,516 --> 01:02:12,316
Speaker 3: pretty loud, and Bonnie when it was over, she said, God,

989
01:02:12,356 --> 01:02:15,076
Speaker 3: it's sended like y'all were in there taken viagra when

990
01:02:15,116 --> 01:02:19,236
Speaker 3: you recorded that. And I said, I know whose voice

991
01:02:19,236 --> 01:02:23,076
Speaker 3: you're talking about, because there was some big old Johnny

992
01:02:23,116 --> 01:02:24,396
Speaker 3: cast sing in that chorus.

993
01:02:24,596 --> 01:02:28,636
Speaker 1: M hm. So after you had this great run of

994
01:02:28,676 --> 01:02:32,476
Speaker 1: albums with Rosanne, So you said you were frustrated at

995
01:02:32,476 --> 01:02:35,716
Speaker 1: that point though, that you hadn't that she was the star.

996
01:02:37,076 --> 01:02:40,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it was. You can imagine in a household

997
01:02:40,476 --> 01:02:44,396
Speaker 3: where two artists working side by side and one of

998
01:02:44,436 --> 01:02:48,436
Speaker 3: them's taken off, and mind you, I stayed home with

999
01:02:48,476 --> 01:02:52,316
Speaker 3: the kids. We never were both gone at the same time,

1000
01:02:52,356 --> 01:02:55,116
Speaker 3: which was I think a pretty good choice at the time.

1001
01:02:55,796 --> 01:03:02,076
Speaker 3: But she deserved it. Rosanna is. She is an artist

1002
01:03:02,116 --> 01:03:04,876
Speaker 3: through and through. She deserved it. It's not her fault

1003
01:03:04,956 --> 01:03:07,836
Speaker 3: that that it took off, and it took me a minute.

1004
01:03:09,236 --> 01:03:11,596
Speaker 3: She was in a portion I was on a bicycle,

1005
01:03:12,356 --> 01:03:13,356
Speaker 3: so it goes you.

1006
01:03:13,316 --> 01:03:17,236
Speaker 1: Know, you weren't in a bicycle long because you put

1007
01:03:17,276 --> 01:03:21,676
Speaker 1: out Diamonds and Dirt, which had what four or five singles.

1008
01:03:22,596 --> 01:03:25,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, the five number one songs off of that album.

1009
01:03:25,116 --> 01:03:26,996
Speaker 3: It's just like one right after the other.

1010
01:03:27,276 --> 01:03:30,996
Speaker 1: She's crazy for leaving one of my favorite songs of

1011
01:03:31,036 --> 01:03:34,276
Speaker 1: yours after all this time. Yeah, I just want to

1012
01:03:34,276 --> 01:03:36,716
Speaker 1: ask you about two of the songs. One you mentioned

1013
01:03:36,716 --> 01:03:40,556
Speaker 1: it earlier, taking Flight, which you wrote with Ashley McBride.

1014
01:03:40,556 --> 01:03:42,076
Speaker 1: How was How was the writing done?

1015
01:03:44,076 --> 01:03:47,796
Speaker 3: Well? Ashley, I made a record in Chico called Chicago

1016
01:03:47,916 --> 01:03:52,156
Speaker 3: Sessions one Back, and actually came around the house and

1017
01:03:52,596 --> 01:03:55,596
Speaker 3: we wrote a song called making Lovers out of Friends.

1018
01:03:56,876 --> 01:03:59,436
Speaker 3: It was pretty sweet and I thought she would do it,

1019
01:03:59,476 --> 01:04:03,996
Speaker 3: but she didn't, and so I recorded it in Chicago.

1020
01:04:05,276 --> 01:04:09,276
Speaker 3: But that the day we wrote that song, Ashley was

1021
01:04:09,316 --> 01:04:12,916
Speaker 3: coming back two days later. So I woke up the

1022
01:04:13,036 --> 01:04:16,396
Speaker 3: day that she was coming back and just to get

1023
01:04:16,436 --> 01:04:18,956
Speaker 3: ready for Ashley to come around, and I started writing

1024
01:04:21,316 --> 01:04:23,676
Speaker 3: taking Flight, and it was just coming out of me

1025
01:04:23,716 --> 01:04:26,396
Speaker 3: in a hurry, and I was trying to hurry up

1026
01:04:26,396 --> 01:04:28,676
Speaker 3: and get here, hurry up and get here. And she

1027
01:04:28,796 --> 01:04:32,116
Speaker 3: finally got there, and I was pretty far down the

1028
01:04:32,196 --> 01:04:35,636
Speaker 3: road on it, and I said, oh God, and she

1029
01:04:35,796 --> 01:04:37,836
Speaker 3: signed off on all of it, and then we finished

1030
01:04:37,836 --> 01:04:41,636
Speaker 3: it up. But later on, as I was when I

1031
01:04:41,676 --> 01:04:47,516
Speaker 3: realized it would make a good duet, we collaborated on

1032
01:04:47,556 --> 01:04:49,356
Speaker 3: the spoken word at the end of it to have

1033
01:04:49,356 --> 01:04:52,556
Speaker 3: a little conversation at the end, to make the song

1034
01:04:52,636 --> 01:04:53,476
Speaker 3: a conversation.

1035
01:04:54,156 --> 01:04:57,636
Speaker 1: A beautiful line about an unwed mother seemed to be

1036
01:04:57,676 --> 01:05:00,476
Speaker 1: a small voice on the phone. Was that from you?

1037
01:05:00,836 --> 01:05:01,036
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1038
01:05:01,076 --> 01:05:05,116
Speaker 1: Well, I claimed that one think you should. Yeah, and

1039
01:05:05,156 --> 01:05:08,316
Speaker 1: I do want to ask about the last song, which

1040
01:05:08,356 --> 01:05:11,276
Speaker 1: is Jess Gorgeous maybe somewhere down the road.

1041
01:05:12,116 --> 01:05:19,796
Speaker 3: Yeah. Before I met Claudia, I had a friendship romance

1042
01:05:20,436 --> 01:05:26,236
Speaker 3: with a woman. She was really interesting woman, and I

1043
01:05:26,316 --> 01:05:29,316
Speaker 3: helped her get to India. She wanted to get to India,

1044
01:05:29,356 --> 01:05:33,156
Speaker 3: and I helped her get there, and she did come

1045
01:05:33,196 --> 01:05:35,596
Speaker 3: back to the States and I never saw her again

1046
01:05:35,636 --> 01:05:39,356
Speaker 3: when she came back from India. But I later found

1047
01:05:39,356 --> 01:05:44,556
Speaker 3: out that she had taken her own life and in

1048
01:05:44,596 --> 01:05:49,356
Speaker 3: a pretty horrific way. So I thought about her a lot,

1049
01:05:49,436 --> 01:05:51,556
Speaker 3: and I said, hey, God, the only thing I can

1050
01:05:51,636 --> 01:05:57,476
Speaker 3: do is she deserves a song. So I made the song.

1051
01:05:57,756 --> 01:06:00,036
Speaker 3: I wrote it and we recorded its first thing we

1052
01:06:00,076 --> 01:06:06,116
Speaker 3: recorded before we actually went down to Louisiana, and I

1053
01:06:06,156 --> 01:06:11,156
Speaker 3: didn't think it fit the record because the rest of

1054
01:06:12,156 --> 01:06:17,196
Speaker 3: Airline Highway was a little more lighthearted. But Tyler, the producer,

1055
01:06:17,276 --> 01:06:19,636
Speaker 3: he loved it, and I liked the song. I thought

1056
01:06:19,636 --> 01:06:22,836
Speaker 3: it was some good writing, but I just felt like

1057
01:06:22,956 --> 01:06:27,916
Speaker 3: it was it didn't work for the album. But everybody

1058
01:06:27,956 --> 01:06:31,476
Speaker 3: around me kept saying, you're wrong, you're wrong, You're wrong.

1059
01:06:31,516 --> 01:06:35,596
Speaker 3: And then then one day when Trina Shoemaker. She rang

1060
01:06:35,636 --> 01:06:38,796
Speaker 3: in and she said, you're wrong. Everybody told me I

1061
01:06:38,956 --> 01:06:41,076
Speaker 3: was wrong, so I said, okay, well then let's stick

1062
01:06:41,116 --> 01:06:43,996
Speaker 3: it on the end because it doesn't fit anywhere else.

1063
01:06:44,676 --> 01:06:47,436
Speaker 3: So there it is. And I always thought it was

1064
01:06:47,476 --> 01:06:53,516
Speaker 3: pretty good writing, and I think the performance is pretty good.

1065
01:06:53,556 --> 01:06:59,396
Speaker 3: And I'm glad it's on the record because the woman

1066
01:06:59,516 --> 01:07:03,116
Speaker 3: that I wrote it about deserve having a song, even

1067
01:07:03,156 --> 01:07:06,356
Speaker 3: though it was after her life was gone through.

1068
01:07:07,156 --> 01:07:10,036
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming in. It's been complete delight,

1069
01:07:10,276 --> 01:07:11,116
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

1070
01:07:11,356 --> 01:07:11,716
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1071
01:07:14,716 --> 01:07:16,716
Speaker 2: An episode of description, you'll find a link to a

1072
01:07:16,756 --> 01:07:19,876
Speaker 2: playlist featuring our favorite songs from Rodney Crowell, as well

1073
01:07:19,916 --> 01:07:22,916
Speaker 2: as his new album, Airline Highway. Be sure to check

1074
01:07:22,916 --> 01:07:25,876
Speaker 2: out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see

1075
01:07:25,956 --> 01:07:28,796
Speaker 2: all of our video interviews, and be sure to follow

1076
01:07:28,876 --> 01:07:31,476
Speaker 2: us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can

1077
01:07:31,516 --> 01:07:34,516
Speaker 2: follow us on Twitter at Broken Record. Broken Record is

1078
01:07:34,556 --> 01:07:36,956
Speaker 2: produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from

1079
01:07:36,996 --> 01:07:40,316
Speaker 2: Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Holliday.

1080
01:07:41,076 --> 01:07:43,996
Speaker 2: Broken Record is production of Pushkin Industries. If you love

1081
01:07:44,036 --> 01:07:47,556
Speaker 2: this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus.

1082
01:07:47,876 --> 01:07:50,916
Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content

1083
01:07:50,996 --> 01:07:53,316
Speaker 2: and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month.

1084
01:07:53,476 --> 01:07:56,916
Speaker 2: Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if

1085
01:07:56,956 --> 01:07:59,036
Speaker 2: you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and

1086
01:07:59,036 --> 01:08:01,516
Speaker 2: review us on your podcast app Our theme musics by

1087
01:08:01,596 --> 01:08:09,676
Speaker 2: Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richmonds.