1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I am your host 3 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: ed Ziitrum. We are sitting in my living room and 4 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 2: we're going to talk about sports gambling today. Now at 5 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: sports Gambling, we're focusing on the US because this is 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 2: a US focus podcast. There is a hell of a 7 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 2: lot of weird shit in England where I grew up, 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 2: and in Europe at large with gambling. We have to 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 2: focus somewhere. We're going to focus on the US. Now. 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 2: We are in my living room in Las Vegas because 11 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: it's the Super Bowl Sunday weekend. That was a great 12 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 2: sentence that we're keeping. But nevertheless, I have another podcast. 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 2: I have an NFL podcast football podcast called the Sixty 14 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 2: Minute Drill, and I'm joined today by my co hosts 15 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: on that podcast. To my left is a Refassan of 16 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: Wide Left. Hello, and to my right is Caleb Wilson 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: of Western Kabuki. 18 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 3: Happy to be here. 19 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: Okay, So the reason I wanted to focus on this 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 2: because those out I know this is happening in Europe 21 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 2: as well, but in America we've seen this insidious intrusion 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 2: of sports gambling apps into modern life. Now, if you're 23 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: not sports van are actually really gonna take great pains 24 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,040 Speaker 2: to explain why this is an important thing, but also 25 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: why people like sports in general, so that you can 26 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: understand how insidious this whole thing is. So for the uninitiative, 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: for people that don't watch sports, you will literally be 28 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 2: watching basketball and you will get a strip at the 29 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: bottom that says the odds on particular plays. You'll see 30 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 2: this across every sport now, and it used to be 31 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 2: at least or if maybe you can enlighten a little 32 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 2: on this as well, it used to be that you 33 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 2: couldn't just start gambling by having a phone. There was 34 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: a you had to like go to a casino and 35 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 2: say it up. 36 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that was the that was the whole setup. 37 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: It's more complicated than that because of the way that 38 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: we've defined sports gambling and how it doesn't include fantasy sports. 39 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: But pre twenty sixteen, you know, you couldn't really go 40 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: on your phone right gamble really quickly unless you knew 41 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: a couple of work around. There's exceptions to every rule, 42 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: but yeah, for the most part, it wasn't normalized to 43 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: be able to just very quickly bet on aline. 44 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 2: And now you can just bet money because you have 45 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 2: an iPhone and a debit. 46 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: Con yeah, and well some connect directly to your bank account. 47 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 2: Oh good. 48 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: Most places will connect to a credit card or a 49 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: debit card. You can connect some of them directly to 50 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: a PayPal account. It's very convenient, and this is probably 51 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: going to be a theme throughout the episode. But it's 52 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: frictionless in many ways. And so you can navigate through 53 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: these apps that have these like bright colors and haptic 54 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: feedback and all of these wonderful reward mechanisms we'll talk 55 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 1: about and instantly deposit, you know, twenty five dollars, bet 56 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: that twenty five dollars, lose that twenty five dollars, and 57 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: then do it again, all in this span of like 58 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 1: five seconds. 59 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,679 Speaker 2: And is there, like age verification, is there any efforts 60 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 2: to do like anything to stop people underage? 61 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: For gambling apps, there are. For fantasy apps, there typically are, 62 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: but not universe. 63 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: It's the separation between a gambling and a fantasy app. 64 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: It is an entirely legal distinction. In my opinion, I 65 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: think that there isn't much of a difference. But fantasy 66 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: is legal in different states than gambling is, and so 67 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: a fantasy app is trying to distinguish itself legally from 68 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 1: like a gambling product by offering kind of the things 69 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: that are traditionally scored in fantasy football. And then they're 70 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: kind of expanding beyond that. But let's say that for now. 71 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: So you know, hey, I imagine you know that Patrick 72 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: Mahomes will pass for over two hundred and twenty five 73 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: yards in this sanse. 74 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 2: The quarterback from the quarterback from Kansas City League quarterback, 75 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: the guy who throws the ball, guy catches the ball 76 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 2: for him. Two hundred yards would be the completed the completed. 77 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: Yardage of those successful passes. And so you know this, 78 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: this fantasy app will be like, hey, do you think 79 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: it's more than or less than that? You go, well, 80 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: I think he's very good, so go more then, and 81 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: then you can't actually play a bet on that exactly 82 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: otherwise that would be gambling. So you have to pair 83 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: it with another pick. They call them picks and bets. 84 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: And so you'd say, well, alongside that, I think that 85 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: Jalen Hurts, the opposing quarterback for the Philadelphia Eagles in 86 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: this week's Super Bowl. You know, I think he'll pass 87 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: for over one hundred and ninety yards, right, And so 88 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: you combine those two and maybe three, four, five however, right, 89 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: and that is your pick them for that week, and 90 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: you submit it. You put like, let's help, put twenty 91 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 1: dollars on it, and you've got a couple of ways 92 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: to do it. In gambling, they would call them, you know, 93 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: parlays or teasers, but in fantasy, you just get like 94 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: their flex picks or all. 95 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: And you're just betting on what a plan might do effectively. 96 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can do that in gambling, yeah, with 97 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: real money. That's it. And so the fantasy distinction is 98 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: that you cannot pick multiple players on the same team 99 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,359 Speaker 1: without adding another player on a different team. 100 00:04:57,760 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: Oh, so they find a way to make it. 101 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's definitely not gambling. It's just fantasy. So 102 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:08,039 Speaker 1: you have to have multiple teams and you can't just 103 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: bet on one single outcome. I'm sorry, you can't pick 104 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:11,160 Speaker 1: one single. 105 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: Outcome, right, And this is all they're trying to pretend 106 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 2: it's skill based. Then correct, Very cool. So one of 107 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: the things I wanted to get into as well is 108 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: why people give a shit about this? So for them 109 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: not We have a lot of nonsports listeners and I'm 110 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 2: very very aware of this and I don't want anyone 111 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: to think this is going to be an hour of 112 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: us just talking about like really specific sports stuff. In fact, 113 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 2: I kind of want to explain to people who aren't 114 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: in sports, white people give a shit so much, Why 115 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 2: is why do you love sport? Like, what is the 116 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: thing that gets you excited about this and how does 117 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 2: that kind of lead into this sports sports gambling world. 118 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 3: Kayla, Well, for me, I mean there's a lot you 119 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 3: know in I guess as broadly as possible, we're in 120 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 3: one of the most lonely times in human history, right. 121 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: This is one form of entertaining as opposed to something 122 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: like you know, reading a book or watching a TV show. 123 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 3: These are predominant things that you do alone. When you're 124 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 3: watching sports, particularly when you go to a game or 125 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 3: to tailgating, you're doing something that's that's communal in nature. 126 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 3: You're doing something that builds tradition. I think that anybody 127 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: who doesn't maybe they don't dislike sports, but they just 128 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 3: don't understand it. Go tailgating one time. 129 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: Immediately it will click for you and tell gettang full. 130 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: The European Listeners is actually kind of a fun thing 131 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 2: where you just outside the stadium, drink a bunch and 132 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,919 Speaker 2: eat a bunch. Yeah. People set up like grills and 133 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 2: smoke and it's very communal, like. 134 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 3: When there's no money involved. It's like people just do this. 135 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 3: They spend thousands of dollars dollars off their own money 136 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 3: just to build social bonds. 137 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: Into and deadly serious. So when I went to Penns 138 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 2: nine in two thousand and five, I remember just walking 139 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: around kind of confused. I was like, genuinely was like 140 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: do I pay? And I walked up to someone who 141 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 2: just had like a roast suckling pig and I'm like, wow, 142 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: what is that? He goes it's a pig. I'm like, 143 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 2: oh yeah, I mean and he and he was like 144 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 2: do you want some? I'm like what what? Sure? They're 145 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: like okay, and they like made me like a pile 146 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: of meat and they were like cool. And then they 147 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: just kind of turned away from me, like not in 148 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: a rude way, but they. 149 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: Went by, like I've done with this time. 150 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 2: They just gave this random person food. But I like 151 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: the tailgate example because it's the same thing in like 152 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: a bar. It's like a thing you will get upset 153 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 2: about together. 154 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, And one thing that I find 155 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: kind of interesting, like you compared it to you know, 156 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: it's more communal than watching television. One thing that that 157 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: kind of a recall is you know how excited everyone 158 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: was for like the weekly release of like Game of 159 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: Thrones whenever that episode came out. And that was somewhat 160 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 1: unique because now that we're in a streaming error, people 161 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: don't that's like gone, yeah, and so people don't experience 162 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: shows in real time, but sports are always experienced in 163 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: real time. So even if you're not going to a 164 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: bar or the stadium or tailgate whatever, you are experiencing 165 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: it with an online community in real time reacting to 166 00:07:58,600 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 1: the same things. 167 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 3: Rightyeah, Well that's that was going to bring in maybe 168 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 3: to my next point, like it's semiotics in a way. 169 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: That's like I can in my office put a football 170 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: on my you know, on my on my desk or 171 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: behind my desk or whatever, and somebody that comes in, 172 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: they'll know, oh ye a Seahawks fan whatever they am, 173 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 3: and then immediately any tension it involved in a professional 174 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 3: reaction is reduced. This is a person that I can 175 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: have a normal human conversation with that I might not 176 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:26,119 Speaker 3: otherwise be able to have yeah. 177 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: I think a lot of our social bonds are defined 178 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: and identified in ways that this is going to sound 179 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: so like basic like separate people, right, And it's not 180 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: separate as in so division, but as in you know, 181 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: you either identify with this or you don't, right, is 182 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: that Pokey? 183 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,200 Speaker 2: Yes? That you well, now we are also joined by Pokey, 184 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: one of my Bengal cats. 185 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: Very adorable, beautiful, also mischievous. Oh yes, but yeah, like 186 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: a lot of our our our social bonds or through 187 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: these groups identities, but the identities are generally pretty harsh categories, right, 188 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: you know, male, female, right, Which is not to suggest 189 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: right that you know you can't be friends with men 190 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: or women, but rather that this is not an area 191 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: that typically you cross the social boundary and have some 192 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: shared experiences. It's kind of like an all or nothing thing, 193 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 1: and a lot of our stratifications of identity kind of 194 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: fit along those lines in a lot of ways. But 195 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: with sports, you've got kind of this like ladder of 196 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: identity that you can find at some point some level 197 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: of connection. It can either be you know, hey, we 198 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: have the same favorite player on the same favorite team. 199 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about you know how cool Patrick Mahomes is 200 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: or whatever right, Or you can go up a level 201 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: and say, hey, we're both Chiefs fans, let's talk about 202 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: how cool it is to be Chiefs fans, or you know, 203 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: up a level and say, hey we both love football. 204 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: Let's talk about you know whatever, right, And you can 205 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: get broader and broader and it creates something you always 206 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: have a level of conversation about. But you always immediately 207 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 1: can you know where the other person is coming from right, 208 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: which is invaluable I think in a lot of social interactions. 209 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 2: And I would say like I got into sports pretty 210 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: much because of the Internet. Casey Kagawa, the fifth Beatle 211 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 2: of Better Offline, He's talked over many ideas. He also 212 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: got me into baseball. And I got into football because 213 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 2: I went to Penn State and the people around me 214 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 2: all wanted to do stuff on Saturday or leave me 215 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 2: at home. So I wanted to go to Penn State. 216 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 2: I want to go to Penn State football. I was 217 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 2: made to but the sport. But I got into baseball 218 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: almost entirely online. Like it was. Casey took me to games, 219 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: but he would send me YouTube after YouTube and help 220 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 2: me discover things like foolish baseball. Bailey is a legend outstanding, 221 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 2: incredible channel, and I don't even like baseball. I like 222 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 2: that channel and the way that this is computers, by 223 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 2: the way listeners is. I did not grow up in America. 224 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 2: I moved here in two thousand and eight. I did 225 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: a year in Penn State, so all of my understanding 226 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: of baseball in particular is completely digital. Like Ricky Henderson, 227 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: who recently passed one of the greatest players of all time, 228 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: no fucking clue who he was. I had no idea. 229 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,959 Speaker 2: I had no idea who that was. He's so incredible 230 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: And the only reason I will ever be able to 231 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:13,959 Speaker 2: see Ricky Henderson do anything is because foolish baseball Bailey 232 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 2: over there pulled together every bit of footage of this 233 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 2: guy who played in like the seventies and eighties, or 234 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 2: maybe it was just the eighties eighties, Yeah, yeah, And 235 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 2: I was able to discover this guy while looking at 236 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 2: the stats online. And I feel like that has kind 237 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: of deepened the numerous ways people can access sports and 238 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: get into sports and connect thus connect with other people. 239 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: I mean, the Reddit communities can be very funny or 240 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 2: they can be terrible. 241 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 3: Some variants. 242 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think it's something that I love trying 243 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: to explain sports to people that don't watch them more 244 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: like them or don't understand them, which leads them one 245 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: or the other, because it's like there's something genuinely lovely 246 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: about it that has It's brought a lot to my 247 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 2: life despite me being like very much a computer person. 248 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, well there are like say, you're listening to 249 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 3: this in your cynical and that doesn't that has not 250 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 3: sold you on this. There are still like just utilitarian 251 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,079 Speaker 3: social reasons that sports are important too for young people. 252 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: I mean, study after study after study shows that kids 253 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: that are involved in team sports or team based activities 254 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,960 Speaker 3: always almost across the board, have better outcomes in life 255 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 3: because they're taught things like cooperation and you know, all 256 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: the things that you would learn in sports or other 257 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 3: you know, team based activities. But beyond that, you know, 258 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 3: sports is like the frontlines always for social issues. Yes, 259 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 3: historically that people don't really understand marginalized groups that don't 260 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 3: have a voice in politics. You are, you know, a 261 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 3: black man or a woman. None of your elected officials 262 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 3: look like you. They don't represent your interests. All you 263 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 3: have is if you're Muhammad Ali, you can use your 264 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 3: platform to avoid the draft. You can do Colin Kaepernick 265 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 3: and take a knee, the US women's soccer team fighting 266 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 3: for equal pay. These are things that happen in sports 267 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: because they can't necessarily happen in other avenues. 268 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: Right, And it's and I think it makes sports important 269 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 2: to people on a level that things like the computer 270 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 2: will never be, though I personally approve in that differently 271 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 2: with this podcast, I feel like you get the same 272 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,800 Speaker 2: attachments maybe to like Marvel comics or something, or like 273 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: whatever fandoms they may be. But sports, I feel like 274 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,120 Speaker 2: goes like one level deeper because you can have a 275 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: history with the team, and the team can have a history, 276 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: and you can have a history with friends as a 277 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: result of watching like case And for example, my experience 278 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 2: of baseball has been colored very heavily by like the 279 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: last five or six years of Dodgers baseball. As Casey 280 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: has desperately tried to educate me, I now get it. 281 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,559 Speaker 2: I now fully get the game. This poor guy, I mean, 282 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: I would bring him to baseball game. So yeah, But 283 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: it's that is something that I will always have with 284 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: one of my best friends. I love so much. And 285 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: I feel like sports is singlely unique with them. 286 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, especially as as Kyler mentioned, we're like entering 287 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: this period of increasing social isolation. There's all kinds of 288 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: data on how unlikely it is that we're going to 289 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: interact with people in real life in social spaces in 290 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And I think that that, you know, 291 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: all plays a really significant role. But to speak to 292 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: Taka's point about like social progress and stuff like that, 293 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: I think people have an understanding of like these are 294 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: historical moments, but they don't always necessarily place them on 295 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: a timeline, right, So like, for example, Jackie Robinson spearheaded 296 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: the integration of baseball in nineteen forty seven. 297 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: And what was the instgration of baseball? 298 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: Just to Yeah, so for a long time in baseball only, 299 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: especially at the professional level, but for most of the 300 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: minor leagues. 301 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 2: I'm also going to say, I'm going to guess you're 302 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: going to say a word beginning with en at some 303 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: point with this, And I want to be very clear 304 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 2: that when aarif says this, he is referring to a 305 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: specific thing. 306 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: Yes, we'll get there. Yes, I just. 307 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: Wanted a real war. 308 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, but there was a color barrier in Major League 309 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: baseball that prevented people of color, but specifically black people 310 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: from playing baseball. This was enforced mostly from my understanding, 311 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: without a rule. It was just everyone had an understanding. 312 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: Everyone agreed. 313 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, everyone just kind of agreed we were employing. And so, 314 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, with a lot of talented black baseball players 315 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: that were playing in the Negro leagues, in which there's 316 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: a Negro League Museum and Baseball Reference and a couple 317 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: of other statistical organizations have finally started recognizing those as 318 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: official professional statistics. 319 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: Right, and they did a realignment of all the stats, 320 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 2: like there's two black players who were better than Tykob 321 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: who was one of the most racist men to walk 322 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: the f It's beautiful, it's wonderful. 323 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, so Jackie Robinson spirit hit of the integration 324 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: of Major League baseball in nineteen forty seven, which is. 325 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 2: And how did he do that? Just fun? Did he like, 326 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: like what did he do to spit. 327 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 1: When he started at first base? But yeah, I mean, oh, 328 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: he's just that well, I mean, he was an outstanding player. 329 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: He's one of the best players we've ever seen, and statistically, 330 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: you know whatever, But no, I mean I think was 331 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: it was it. It was the Kansas City Monarchs. And 332 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: then it was the was it the Dodgers? Are we Yeah, 333 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: it was the Bokland Dodgers. Yeah, you mentioned the Dodgers, 334 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: and the Dodgers came out of my mind, like am 335 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: I remembering that just because? No, it was the Brooklyn Doughters. 336 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: So the Brooklyn Dodgers decided like hey, you know, like 337 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: I'm not a historian on this particular topic, but the 338 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Dodgers decided that this would be the time to 339 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: bring in a black baseball player. 340 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: And so capitalism, Yeah, no, that. 341 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: Definitely was a big part of it. And there's a 342 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: whole history about you know, Jackie Robinsons approach. They were 343 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: very particular about the player they selected. We don't need 344 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 1: to get into that. Nevertheless, though it was twenty years 345 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: prior to a lot of the stuff we associate with 346 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: the civil rights movement in the nineteen the mid nineteen sixties, right, 347 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of that is just because 348 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: that's the the locus of a lot of social change 349 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: can occur prior to you know, the way people understanding 350 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: the mainstream in sporting arenas, right, And I think that 351 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: a lot of people always attempt to just aggregate kind 352 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: of social movements and sports without understanding that sports are 353 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: not just you know, embedded in the culture of society 354 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: and the fabric of society, but very often can be 355 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: like Canaritians in the coal mine for social change. 356 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 2: It kind of feels like that's where the whole horrifying 357 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 2: attack on trans athletes is really is really making it like, Yes, 358 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 2: and by the way, if you agree that trans athletes 359 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 2: shouldn't be in sports, I have another idea for you. 360 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 2: So if you've followed my lost constructions, you should be 361 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: in your garage in your car now. I want to 362 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 2: make sure those windows are up. Check all those windows now, 363 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: and I want you to turn the ignition now. You 364 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: may start feeling sleepy. That means that it's working now 365 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 2: moving on, I feel like and the reason I really 366 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: wanted to explain what makes people love sports? 367 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 1: There's one more. 368 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, sorry, sorry now that I've threatened some people, 369 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 2: Please continue. 370 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 1: No. One of the things that really appeals to me 371 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: about sports is that it is one of the ultimate 372 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: storytelling art forms. And you can attach yourself to a 373 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: team or a player, or a larger league wide trend, whatever. 374 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: But what's really cool about sports is that it constantly 375 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: creates storylines, tensions, and conflicts that people can follow along 376 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 1: and enjoy, not just in real time, which always has 377 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: like this added kind of you know when it comes 378 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: to storytelling, but it is truly unpredictable. Like we know 379 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: about tropes in storytelling, and very often you can read 380 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: a very good book and you recognize a trope and 381 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: understand the direction that they. 382 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: Even headed in even some modern writing kind of like 383 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 2: is affected by fandoms. 384 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: Right exactly, and not that like tropes are bad are 385 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: a necessary, you know, element of writing, but it can 386 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: impact your experience because you know the direction that the 387 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,120 Speaker 1: writing is going to be headed in, right, just because 388 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: you're familiar with the tropes, right, and tropes are unavoidable 389 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: in writings. Is not about that, but rather that we 390 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: can identify tropes in sports, but that doesn't mean we 391 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: know what the conclusion of this story is going to be. 392 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: And so when you see someone you know kind of 393 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: struggle through a lots which teams five or six times 394 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: or you know whatever and accomplish you know, this remarkable 395 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 1: dream or this goal which can be you know, winning 396 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: the Super Bowl. Of course that's like the classic example, 397 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: but some of the best stories are the guy made 398 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: the team right like it's like, there are some really 399 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: outstanding stories where it's like, you know, this person, you 400 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: know went to a junior college because he didn't have 401 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 1: the grades to make it because of the system he 402 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: grew up in just didn't give him access to the 403 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: resources he needs to get good grades. Goes to junior college, 404 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: gets good grades there, transfer to, you know, a Division 405 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: two school, and a Division two school for people unfamiliar, 406 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: are essentially multiple levels below the level that typically NFL 407 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: athletes come from. But you know, maybe they go to 408 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: a Division two school or Division three school where they're 409 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 1: barely even any athletic scholarships at all, and you know, 410 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: they grind it out, they work hard, they're an outstanding 411 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: star player for their program, and it comes time to 412 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: declare for the draft. They declare for the draft a team. 413 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: No team drafts them, you know, because there's only two 414 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty six odd picks in the NFL Draft, 415 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: and so then they have to advocate for themselves as 416 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: a potentially undrafted free agent. These are people that get 417 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: a lot less consideration when it comes to making the 418 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: team make a lot less money. It's much more difficult. 419 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: A lot of them making it through a professional team 420 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: is extremely unlikely. 421 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so they make what's called the ninety man roster, 422 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: and from the ninety man roster they cut down to 423 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: the fifty three man roster. And that process is onerous. 424 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: And maybe you know that first year, that guy, you know, 425 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: that guy from co college or whatever, doesn't make the team, 426 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: but he makes this supplementary practice squad. And then the 427 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: next year he gets another opportunity the attentry to make 428 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: the team. He makes the team. And that's the whole story, 429 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: and it rules. 430 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: Can I interject with my favorite example of that. 431 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 2: Just make sure it's like really simple. 432 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 3: For Yeah, the Griffin brothers in Seattle, Oh, twin brothers 433 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 3: and Shaquille. Yes, the Shakim is he's disabled, it doesn't 434 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 3: have a he doesn't have a hand, a right hand 435 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,359 Speaker 3: with the physical disability, still makes the roster. Twin brothers 436 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 3: both on the Seahawks. Wonderful story. 437 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 438 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: And when when Shaquille was deciding which college to because 439 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: they both went to UCF, right, yeah, uh deciding so, yeah, 440 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: deciding which college to go to, he said, you have 441 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: to offer my twin brother, Shakim otherwise I'm not going 442 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 1: And so he was like a four star recruit or 443 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: something like that, which, again for people who are unfamiliar, 444 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: there's you know, three four and five star recruits. Five 445 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: star recruits get recruited by the blue bloods Alabama, Georgia, whoever, 446 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: and at the time you get a ton of under 447 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: the table money. Now you just get over the table money. Fantastic, 448 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: as they should. Yeah, but like you know, there are 449 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,640 Speaker 1: several hundreds of thousands of dollars ventually that these big 450 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: programs can offer. And he said, no, I'm playing with 451 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: my brother. That's key, and UCF was like, yeah, we'll 452 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: play both of them. And Shaquima was a really good 453 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: player at the college level too, so like it turned 454 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 1: out to be a great event, But that wasn't the reason. 455 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 1: It was because the team wanted to respect Shakiel and 456 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: they're like, well, if there's a there's a spot for 457 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: Chaquem on our program, you know certainly he can play, 458 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: and he played his way into a spot. He's actually 459 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: one of the more unique players and not going to 460 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: get into that that has nothing to do with his hand. 461 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: One of the more unique players just from the way 462 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 1: that he plays and then you know, he goes to 463 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: a college all star game, the Senior Bowl, and they're like, well, 464 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:35,879 Speaker 1: we'll see what you can do. We'll play you at 465 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: this position, this position, this position, this position, because you 466 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: have a really unique body type. We don't really know 467 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 1: what to do with that. And you know, they're playing 468 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: him in coverage and the quarterbacks are doing their job. 469 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: It feels cruel, but you got to do it. They're 470 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: throwing at his coverage at the hand that he's missing 471 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: to see how he handles not playing with the full 472 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: extension that you normally get. And you know, he impresses 473 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: the scouts enough that he ends up making the Seahawks 474 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: with his brother Sequille. It's outstanding. 475 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 3: That might be a little bit into the weeds, but 476 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,919 Speaker 3: he worked really well of Seattle scheme because of that 477 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: kind of hybrid linebacker type. 478 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's a it's a it's a body type 479 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: because in football, you have a bunch of different positions 480 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: and there are kind of body types that tend to 481 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: fit in those positions and they tend to be somewhat static, 482 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: and so there's very few teams that can fit. So 483 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: it was it was kind of like a perfect situation 484 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: to find the right team culture in Seattle that would 485 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: encourage that kind of thing, to find the right team 486 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: that had basically a position available for the type of 487 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,479 Speaker 1: football that he played, and it emerges as this really 488 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 1: wonderful story where. 489 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: To be clear, by the way, neither of them are 490 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 3: still in Seattle. Shaquilla is still playing was. 491 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: He He's just played for the Vikings. His contract just 492 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: ran out, so we'll see. 493 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll see where he But point point being very 494 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 3: short time together in Seattle, and it is still top 495 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 3: five Seahawks moments for me because of just the narrative 496 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 3: storytelling that you were getting at. 497 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 2: And the thing is this depth is necessary understanding why 498 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: people are so emotionally attached to these teams and why 499 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 2: people have such cultural awareness to really explain how evil 500 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 2: these apps are. Yeah, because you're not just it's not 501 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 2: just like betting on numbers and the excitement of gambling. 502 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: It's and this is a very very overwhelmingly wanky way 503 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: of putting it, it's exerting control over something that you 504 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:28,920 Speaker 2: have even less control over than numbers than odds. So Caleb, 505 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 2: you have and Reef, I know you've written some about 506 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: this as well, but you've definitely complained a lot in 507 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: our sports related group chat about these fucking ads as well. 508 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 2: So describe some of these ads the way they target 509 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 2: people for these sports betting apps. 510 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's kind of hard to pick one 511 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 3: because it's such a deluge. It's everywhere now, and it 512 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 3: seems like I just blinked and then it was there 513 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 3: for context. I didn't want to interrupt a ref what 514 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 3: you were saying earlier when you were explaining the fantasy stuff. 515 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 3: I had no idea about any of that because none 516 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 3: of this is even legal in Washington state. I have 517 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 3: never done this. I've never been able to do this right, 518 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 3: and up until I think it was yesterday when Crypto 519 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: dot Com just said, you know what, I don't care 520 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,480 Speaker 3: about the laws in this on the state level. We're 521 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 3: just going to start doing this. And so you're probably 522 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 3: going to see ads for that on the Super Bowl today. 523 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 3: I would imagine where they're like, yeah, we're just going 524 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 3: to ignore the law and we're going to advertise to 525 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 3: you cynically that you can just just do this now. 526 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: Despite they offer a product that is, according to them, 527 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: not gambling, which is why they can offer it in 528 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: whatever state, but it functionally is gambling. It's also not fantasy, 529 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: which is why they can offer a lot of But 530 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: if you buy a token in whether or not a 531 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: player will accomplish a particular goal or won't accomplish a 532 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: particular goal, and then the token cashes out based off 533 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: of the player's performance, which again is somehow not gambling. 534 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: And on and on a real basic level, the way 535 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 2: they kind of trick you into believing you have more 536 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 2: control is saying, oh, you would pick a team. So 537 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: in fact, we've kind of gone over this, but no, 538 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 2: not hard to reaffirm it. Will you go, oh, I 539 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 2: think that these guys will all score the most, Right, 540 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: so you pick like Patrick Mahomes in the regular season, 541 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 2: Patrick Mahomes wide receiver, running back and all them, and 542 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 2: then you kind of submit that with a bet on it. Right. 543 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, so there are like bets for game day, right, 544 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: but there are season long bets, and there's there there 545 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: is season long fantasy as well. But the way these 546 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: ads are kind of marketing the concept of gaming on 547 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:41,439 Speaker 1: sports or whatever is just game day betting and sometimes 548 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: even live betting in game. 549 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 2: And that's and that's what the most of these were 550 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: because it wasn't really clear to me, So just again 551 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 2: to distinguish. There are the ones where you bet on outcomes, 552 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 2: and then then then there were ones that you bet 553 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 2: on whether you have chosen the correct amount of boys, 554 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 2: like the correct guys that will score the most points. 555 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: Well, again, I think they're both gambling and they almost cat. 556 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 2: I'm just trying to delineate which one is the most like, 557 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: which is the one that has penetrated so far. 558 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 1: Like I would say more people are sick of fantasy 559 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: ads because they've run for longer, but gambling ads have 560 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: done a lot more in the past two years to 561 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: saturate the market. But it's also kind of difficult to 562 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,280 Speaker 1: tell the difference between a fantasy ad and a gambling ad. 563 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: I think most consumers that are. 564 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:28,879 Speaker 3: Just watching the people listening to this will not know 565 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 3: the difference. 566 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so sorry. I actually came into this with 567 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: a slight mistake, and this is a common one. I 568 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: think I thought I didn't know that gambling gambling was 569 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 2: so prevalent. I didn't. So it's how many states can 570 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,720 Speaker 2: you just boot up an app? 571 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: I want to say, it's twenty one. 572 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 2: That's insane. 573 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 3: So now it's fifty. 574 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 2: Well, okay, it's not ignoring regulation, but just to be 575 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: clear to the listeners, non sports fans, sports fans are like, 576 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 2: what we are discussing is that basically in twenty one states, 577 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: anyone can pick up their phone and startling like they're 578 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 2: in Vegas, specifically on the outcomes of sports events. 579 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 3: This individual plays like in the time that it would 580 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,479 Speaker 3: take you to send a tweet, you can lose one 581 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 3: hundred dollars. 582 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the last I looked at was twenty one. Now, 583 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: mobile online sports betting is legal in thirty states plus DC, 584 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: well thirty one states, but it's not yet operational in Missouri, 585 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: and retail gambling, which is you have to physically go 586 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: in in additional eight states. 587 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that is legal in Washington. I have to 588 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 3: go to a place to gamble, and that's I guess 589 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 3: that's a little you know city. 590 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: So it's looking out for one hundred million people, oh easily. Yeah, well, 591 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,719 Speaker 2: especially because it includes New York and Florida. 592 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 3: Oh god, we were talking about this earlier before we 593 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 3: started recording. Ed you were in the other room, but 594 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 3: I was reading about this today. Just today, one point 595 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: five billion dollars will be bet that in the Super. 596 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: Bowl, just on the apps are in general in general, 597 00:28:55,160 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 2: in general, this is real rot economy share as well, 598 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: because anyone can Campbell see you've got the system that's 599 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 2: already not great. And the things you can bet on, 600 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 2: just to be clear, aren't just like guy wins game 601 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 2: or guy scores points. It's like the coin toss yet 602 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 2: the level of well, absurdity like with the coin toss, 603 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 2: but the level of absurdity and precision that on the 604 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: things with which you can bet on or absurd and 605 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 2: so some of them are just called novelty bets. And 606 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 2: the coin toss, by the way, is who whether the 607 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: coin will be heads or. 608 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: Tails correct, or you can bet on who will win 609 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,480 Speaker 1: the coin toss, which in the same arts right. 610 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: Great, So two bets on the coin yeah, ah. 611 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 1: You've got well, and then there's you can there's correlated bets. 612 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: So there's a I was offered when I logged under 613 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: fan Duel earlier, I was offered a bet on Chiefs 614 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: win the coin toss and the game. 615 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: And when you say offered, how do you mean? 616 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: When I logged into the app at the splash, Green 617 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: showed up telling me that there was this bet that 618 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: I would be available for. It was like a. 619 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 2: Bright available for in what like I would not always. 620 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: No if I navigated. Was there a special deal or 621 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: was it just telling you could do this? In this case, 622 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: there wasn't a special deal. It was just informing me 623 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: that and I assume. So here's my understanding of how 624 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: this operation works. Right, when they come up with like 625 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: unique bets like that one which for most games you 626 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: don't get to bet on the coin toss in most books, but. 627 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 2: Books refers to the like the the operators cool. 628 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, uh. But when when they like come up with these, uh, 629 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: they start kind of testing which ones are the most 630 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: popular and then also using the data that they have 631 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: to determine which ones are the most profitable, which is 632 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: another way of saying which ones people lose the most 633 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: money on. 634 00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: So they are just so we're clear, advertising specific bets, yeah, 635 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 2: advertising specific bets and telling you and then highlighting the 636 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: ones that are the most profitable and most likely to 637 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: generate interaction. So trying to actively advertising something that you 638 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: will they ideally need you to lose on. And the 639 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: thing they're promoting. 640 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: Is and their data tells them that tells them that 641 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: you are very likely to lose on. 642 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: So when you say you are likely to use lose on, 643 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 2: are you saying that they customize it based on your 644 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 2: actual bets in history? 645 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: Yes? And no. So they can. They can customize their 646 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: offers to the category of bets that you typically make 647 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: and will engineer kind of the ones that are most 648 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: profitable to them to show to you. But like the 649 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: specific ones like the one I just showed, that one's 650 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: offered everybody when you when you show up, And so 651 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: the specific bets they don't really they're not like, man, 652 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: this guy loses a ton of money on the Jaguars, 653 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: let's you know, for Jaguars. 654 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: I'm surprised they don't. 655 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: It's probably worth noting that the way that they target 656 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 3: these offers to you depends on whether you are a 657 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 3: casual gambler or if you are somebody who puts a 658 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 3: lot of money into this who's losing quite a bit. 659 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 3: In some cases, if you get if you hit a 660 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 3: certain threshold for how much money you've lost, they will 661 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 3: assign you a personal bookie who will text you directly 662 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 3: specific offers, and they'll even comp you that concierge. 663 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 2: Yes, so this which services. So we're talking fan jewel drops. 664 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 3: This was I read a story about this in NPR 665 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 3: the other day and this one was I believe FanDuel. 666 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so I've covered this a little bit on 667 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: in my piece on sports. 668 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: Gambling pooling that in the nose. 669 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: The both FanDuel and DraftKings do this. Bet MGM, from 670 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,959 Speaker 1: my understanding, has begun doing this, but yeah, specifically the 671 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 1: ones that have primarily an online presence, which I know 672 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: people understand. BEDMGM def like a casino in Vegas, but 673 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: like they've massively expanded their online footprint, and so the 674 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: ones that do that will interact with a lot of 675 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: their most valued customers. Maybe it's the best way to 676 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: put the people who are losing the most money. And 677 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: if you look into the stories of some of the 678 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: people that have been contacted by a concierge, it's very 679 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: much I mean, it's almost like beat for beat, the 680 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: script you would write for a drug dealer engaging with 681 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 1: an addict. And I don't say this lightly. I've lost 682 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: a couple of people in my life to drug addictions, 683 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: and I know other people in my life who are 684 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 1: currently struggling with addiction, and some of those people have 685 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 1: also in addition to their drug addiction, have become addicted 686 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: to gambling, not necessarily sports betting. 687 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 2: And this is all exacted through software. 688 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,800 Speaker 3: This is all directly predominantly Yeah. 689 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: And so the software will flag someone as like, hey, 690 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: this person's lost like thirty thousand dollars, you should get 691 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: more money from them, and then they'll assign a concierge 692 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: and that person will email them like hey. 693 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 3: It's also possibly worth noting here that this might sound 694 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 3: like the people are targeting are like high rollers, but 695 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 3: predominantly speaking, this affects low incomers more than any other group, 696 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 3: how sorry, because those are the people that are typically 697 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 3: gambled the most. 698 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: And that's the thing. This is inherently predatory in a 699 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,960 Speaker 2: way that I don't think would be possible without the 700 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: current disial ecosystem. We have this penetration of completely impossible 701 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 2: consumer apps and also the kind of fuzzy legal definitions 702 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 2: that allow them to just do this bullshit. 703 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it's the it's a combination of a 704 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: couple of things. One, I think the nature of gambling 705 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: is that it provides a lot of hope to people, 706 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: which is one reason that it targets people in lower 707 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 1: income strata. But two, the current gambling environment is frictionless, right, 708 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,359 Speaker 1: like I just mentioned, And this, you know, would be 709 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: like something with the bed MGM live product. So let's 710 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: say we're watching the Super Bowl, right and they're on 711 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: you know, the Eagles are on the five yard line, 712 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 1: which is to say, they're fifteen feet away from scoring 713 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: a touchdown. And I'm in the bed MGM app, and 714 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,959 Speaker 1: I'm in the live section of the bed MGM app, 715 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 1: and I've got zero dollars in my account. Right I 716 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: look up, I see the screen, I see that they 717 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 1: just made it to the five yard line, and I 718 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: immediately go, hey, it looks like Saquon Barkley is And 719 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to throw a number out here that a 720 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: lot of people are not going to know how to interpret. 721 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to skip past that in a second. But 722 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: he's minus two thirty to score a touchdown on the 723 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: next play. So I press yes, minus two thirty. I 724 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: want to bet twenty dollars on it. And immediately a 725 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: pop up will say, hey, you don't have enough money 726 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: in your account to bet twenty dollars? Do you want 727 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: to deposit it right away? And I go yes, and 728 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: it takes me to the deposit screen. It says, this 729 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 1: is your automatic like, this is your default payment method, 730 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: press yes, and you press yes, and then the twenty 731 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: five dollars gets deposited in the account. And then you 732 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: go back to the bet slip that you made and 733 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: you press yes. And that all occurs within three to 734 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,760 Speaker 1: five seconds. And then the next play runs and Saikwon 735 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,560 Speaker 1: Barkley did not score a touchdown. He went to the 736 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: three yard line and now I've just lost my money 737 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: and I want to go and it's gone and now 738 00:35:57,560 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: I want to make it back. So I'm going to 739 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 1: do it on the very next play. 740 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 2: And it is that quick. 741 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: It's so quick. Yeah, you could do it between So 742 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,760 Speaker 1: many people do it between plays. 743 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen someone physically do this? 744 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's completely normal for them to be while 745 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 3: the game is happening. 746 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: I've seen them do it in arenas. 747 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 748 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 2: And this is why I wanted to do this episode 749 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,720 Speaker 2: so badly, because so much of this though everyone hears sports, 750 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 2: and there are definitely some oh is a sports ball 751 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 2: on type people who can be like I don't I 752 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 2: don't like the sports bool. I read book, I watched 753 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: the power Point watch. But nonetheless, these people need to know. 754 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 2: It's like this is one of the most evil things 755 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 2: tech has done. It's it's very much like management consultants 756 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 2: plus tech, but this is an evil perpetuated only through technology. 757 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think for people who are unfamiliar with sports, 758 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: it would it feels like an exaggeration to say people 759 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 1: are like commodifying your relationship with your family. But there 760 00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: are a lot of people that are closer emotionally speaking 761 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: to the teams that they follow than the family that 762 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: they have, and I don't regard that necessarily as a tragedy. 763 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: I don't have a great relationship with my family, so 764 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: that's just the nature of what they are taking advantage of. Yes, 765 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,240 Speaker 1: they're commodifying this relationship, and to an extent, it's always 766 00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: been commodified. Sports are there at a professional level to 767 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: make money, and I've always had like thoughts on the 768 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: tension between that between the relationship a team has to 769 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: like a consumer or a fan in this case, they 770 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: are identical things and like vice versa. But I think 771 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,720 Speaker 1: that teams don't attempt to ruin their customers as lives 772 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: and the way that a lot of these books operate, 773 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: I would argue essentially everyone because smaller books get bought 774 00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 1: at large books meaning the apps. Right, Yeah, I think 775 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: the official term is operators, but I just call them books. 776 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: But it is almost explicitly to ruin people's lives because 777 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: they want to extract as much money as quickly as possible. 778 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,760 Speaker 1: And so there's this story in The Athletic that about 779 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: somebody who you know, began you know, gambling, and you know, 780 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: it's just kind of at first, they were a casual 781 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: better they saw like a fifty dollars promo, and typically 782 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: what these promos are is you deposit fifty dollars and 783 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 1: then you receive fifty dollars in promotional cash, which you 784 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: can only use to gamble with. And so they got 785 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: fifty three dollars. Okay, you bet with all of it, 786 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: and you know, at the end of the week he's 787 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: run out, so he deposits one hundred. There's no more 788 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: promo because he was a first time customer, got the 789 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: original promo and so on, and he just keeps going. 790 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,760 Speaker 1: And he's got he's got a wife, he's got children, 791 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,320 Speaker 1: he's got a house, right, and he bets larger and 792 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 1: larger sums to make up for what he had lost previously. 793 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,919 Speaker 1: And he's describing the thrill of a win a lot 794 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 1: like you would describe a high, right, And the winds 795 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: are becoming rarer and rarer because he is betting on 796 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: longer and longer shot outcomes, because the long shot outcomes 797 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: have highest potential payout. So essentially what he's doing is 798 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: he's buying a ticket for the lottery, but instead of 799 00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: paying one dollar at the gas station for like a 800 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: mega million's ticket, he's paying one thousand dollars for you know, 801 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: something that will multiply that by it. 802 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,760 Speaker 2: And they do special office and special bets, right, sometimes 803 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: they'll be like that'll improve like that. 804 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: I've seen offers like that, Yeah, and so and so. 805 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: What began happening to this guy is, you know, he 806 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: started betting at odd hours of the night. He started 807 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: betting on sports. He clearly was unfamiliar with Russian tennis, 808 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: you know, uh stony and basketball. 809 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 2: You can bet and this is actually the important detail. 810 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 2: You can bet in some cases on just the most 811 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 2: obtuse stuff. Yeah, just really obscurred. You can bet on 812 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 2: snookers like you can bet on snoocas. Is the very 813 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,280 Speaker 2: strange kind of billiards variant that you have back in England. Sure, 814 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 2: we say snooker. Now I'm not sure which one of 815 00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 2: us is correct anyway, continue. 816 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:59,359 Speaker 1: Well, you're British, so you're probably wrong, but uh yeah, 817 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,120 Speaker 1: you can bet on anything almost anywhere in the world. 818 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: People have been betting on like high school games and 819 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: stuff like that, so they know, and so the app 820 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: is tracking his activity. They notice that he's making deposits 821 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: at odd times of the night. They notice that he's 822 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: betting on obscure sports that he's probably not familiar with, 823 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 1: and so in response to that, they assign him a concierge. 824 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 1: And the concierge emails is like, hey, you know, you're 825 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,520 Speaker 1: one of our most valued customers. I want to offer 826 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: you a five hundred dollars promotion. You don't even have 827 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,080 Speaker 1: to deposit anything. He's like, oh wow, that's five hundred 828 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: three dollars okay, and then he bets it all and 829 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,600 Speaker 1: all withers away right right, and they're like, wow, that's 830 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: like really tough. And so he ends up losing, you know, 831 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,799 Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and he's like 832 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: trying to hide this all from his wife and he's 833 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:45,280 Speaker 1: taking out additional loans, personal loans at high interest, and 834 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: he decides, you know, oh man, this is awful. I'm 835 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: gonna stop. I'm about to lose the house, right, have 836 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 1: to find some way, and so he stops for two weeks. 837 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 2: He stops. 838 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,359 Speaker 1: Then he receives an email saying, Hey, you haven't you 839 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: know you know Bet in a really long time. Is 840 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: there something that we can do to kind of repair 841 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: our relationship between the two of us, because hey, we've 842 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: become friends. Man, you and me. 843 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,879 Speaker 2: You know, we we were together. 844 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: We're on this together. 845 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:09,839 Speaker 2: Man. 846 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: I want to I want to see succeeds. So what 847 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: I've done is I've placed two thousand dollars of promotional 848 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: cash in your account. You know you can do that 849 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: what you want. And he emails back like, hey, I 850 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: you know, I think I've developed a problem. I don't 851 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 1: think I can do this anymore. I'm not going to 852 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: do this anymore. And you know, the guy responds with 853 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: and I'm paraphrasing from an article I read a couple 854 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: of months ago. 855 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:33,400 Speaker 2: So we we'll link We'll find it and linkage. 856 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's over at the Athletic, which is now in 857 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: your Times gig, so well, it'll be easy to find him, 858 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: but you know the guy, you know. The guy responds with, 859 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,080 Speaker 1: oh wow, that you know, I you know, I wish 860 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: the best for you. That really, you know, sucks. I'm 861 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: sorry to hear that. You know, take care of yourself, 862 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: but if you ever come back, those two thousand dollars 863 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: are still there for you. And so it's just always 864 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: in his mind for the next couple of weeks and 865 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: he decides, oh, he's going to do it, and he 866 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: does it, and you the guy emails like, oh wow, 867 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: I'm glad to see you know that you've taken care 868 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: of it and you're back or whatever. And he's like, yeah, 869 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can still you know, do this. 870 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: And he's like, okay, yeah, I understand. We don't want 871 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: you to put we don't want you to put yourself 872 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,760 Speaker 1: in a bad spot, but we've got this great promotion 873 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: coming up that I just want to make sure that 874 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: you take advantage of if it's there, if there's some 875 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:20,799 Speaker 1: way that you can pull together all of the you know, 876 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: pull together what you need in order to act it, 877 00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,600 Speaker 1: and it's just they wreck. Like he has said, multiple times, 878 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: I think I'm an addict and they say, they give 879 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: lip service to the idea that he shouldn't do anything 880 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: about it, and then they enable him. 881 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 2: And this is this is done like fucking software as 882 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,719 Speaker 2: a service sales. This is exactly. This is exactly. You 883 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 2: have a customer that's churning. You email them, you have 884 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: a look at the analytics. People aren't using it within 885 00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: their company. You reach out and you say, hey, look, 886 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 2: so you've got a bunch of users who want using it. Hey, 887 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 2: we'll cut those off, we'll refund those, but have you 888 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 2: considered this ad on for this team? Except instead of 889 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 2: like business software, this is like life ruining gambling. 890 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, well the guy lost his house. Yeah, that happens 891 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,920 Speaker 3: all the time. One in four Americans will be betting 892 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 3: on the super Bowl today. Jesus, that one point five 893 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 3: billion is like gotta be one of the most single 894 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 3: day transfers of wealth from lower income brackets upward in 895 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 3: human history. I mean, that's even if you're cynical about 896 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 3: the individualistic aspects of and if you're an egoist or whatever, 897 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 3: this is what individuals should be able to do whatever, 898 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,520 Speaker 3: whatever you know as a problem that the society continues 899 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 3: to have as people are starting their lives later. They're 900 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 3: not buying houses, they're not having kids, they're not financially 901 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 3: stable enough to do these things. These are the same 902 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 3: people that are being targeted directly by these. 903 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,440 Speaker 2: Apps because the idea is it's kind of like the 904 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 2: crypto ads of twenty twenty two where it was like 905 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 2: seize the day. Like this idea that you can have 906 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:45,800 Speaker 2: hope and accumulate wealth. 907 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it exactly. 908 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:53,279 Speaker 1: It combines the predation on hope right with all of 909 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 1: the lessons we've learned from mobile gaming about the gamification 910 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: of our experiences, and. 911 00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:01,719 Speaker 2: It is the gamification of while also on every show 912 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,240 Speaker 2: you see the odds of the play and this sense 913 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 2: that you could have somehow influence right outcomes. 914 00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: This is one of I think one of the most 915 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: insidious things about this whole thing is that all of 916 00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,840 Speaker 1: the leagues or the broadcast partners that carry the league 917 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: or both have relationships with these companies, and in some 918 00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:23,200 Speaker 1: of the relationships are not sponsorships or advertising mechanisms, like 919 00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:28,239 Speaker 1: the NFL gets paid by William Hill, which is a 920 00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: sports book slash operator to provide real time data so 921 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,000 Speaker 1: that will will Hill can set lines in real time whatever. Okay, 922 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: sure find whatever. I don't care. But also, the NFL 923 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,799 Speaker 1: has a relationship I believe with DraftKings. Is there is there, 924 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,400 Speaker 1: it's either fand old, right, it's almost always a thing 925 00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,000 Speaker 1: you do. And so on the NFL network they talk 926 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,920 Speaker 1: about the lines set by draft Kings. There are promotional 927 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: sponsored DraftKings. On the broadcast, you'll see some stuff about DraftKings. 928 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: And then on top of that, Fox Sports has a 929 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: relationship with I think F and so the broadcasters will 930 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,520 Speaker 1: reference the fan duel line. And so you'll see, like 931 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 1: you mentioned, like at a basketball game, you'll see a 932 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,240 Speaker 1: ticker at the bottom saying like, hey, you know, Victor 933 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,480 Speaker 1: woman Yama is like plus two thirty to get a 934 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 1: you know, triple double this game. You know, but you 935 00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:15,160 Speaker 1: know whatever, right. 936 00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 2: If you don't watch basketball, Victor women Yama is like 937 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,360 Speaker 2: seven foot tall. 938 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, they should deport them. Actually the only person in 939 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,920 Speaker 1: America I think that Ice should deport everybody. Okay, we 940 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:26,239 Speaker 1: do not. 941 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,399 Speaker 2: Actually we're not pro ice. We're like, we've not probe 942 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:30,160 Speaker 2: deportation things. 943 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: No, No, they should eradicate Ice before they do that. 944 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 2: Okay, well me I will love that. So I it's 945 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 2: just I'm trying to think of the terms to put 946 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,800 Speaker 2: this book because I know and I'm very obviously anxious 947 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:44,239 Speaker 2: about this. People don't like sports. Hear this, they get, 948 00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 2: but think of it like if you were watching Game 949 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,839 Speaker 2: of Thrones, the like will ned Stark live and it's 950 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:51,640 Speaker 2: like you can bet on the outcome and they had 951 00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 2: a thing at the bottom of or like severance like 952 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,920 Speaker 2: well Madam Scott find out like and it's like except 953 00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 2: imagine if it was being written in real time, but 954 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 2: something you deeply cared about emotionally, or something that you 955 00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 2: would got attached to with your friends, something that you 956 00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,320 Speaker 2: remember from your childhood that is now through the apps, 957 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,760 Speaker 2: and it's the like only fucking app store advertised by Apple. 958 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,960 Speaker 2: Apple I don't think makes a cut on these, but 959 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 2: I'm sure there's something weird there. But it is that 960 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,320 Speaker 2: that abstraction layer higher than just the kind of manipulative 961 00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:25,279 Speaker 2: micro transaction to you'd see in like a free to 962 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 2: play game. Yeah, except the money goes so quick, like 963 00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 2: in a snap. Yeah, it has got like you said, 964 00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 2: like just if the thing doesn't happen, the money is gone. 965 00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 2: You're not getting a refund. They're not going to do 966 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 2: this you've just gambled. They got your money. 967 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. 968 00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, So actually, here's a dumb question. You said, there's 969 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 2: the fifty dollars free credit. Aren't there people who take 970 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,319 Speaker 2: advantage of that surely, like who like sign up an 971 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,799 Speaker 2: account and are good at gambling? I? Yes, so how 972 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,759 Speaker 2: do they know? But that's the thing. So No, But 973 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 2: the reason I asked this is not because I'm trying 974 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,080 Speaker 2: to convince people they have any more industry. I'm trying 975 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,279 Speaker 2: to find out, like what is so, like, how do 976 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 2: they make the money go? Like there money go? Because 977 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 2: they offer it quite a lot. 978 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's like a couple of things. One we 979 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,040 Speaker 1: found kind of psychologically that if you're offered free money, right, 980 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: even if you have to pay to get the free money, right, 981 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,840 Speaker 1: you are more likely to bet the free money on 982 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:21,759 Speaker 1: long shot odds. So as a whole, that money is 983 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:24,000 Speaker 1: not going to turn into real money that they have 984 00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 1: to pay. 985 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:26,879 Speaker 3: They don't give that. There's I was I didn't want 986 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 3: to interrupt in your talk about this earlier, but it just 987 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 3: kind of goes to show you they'll throw fifty bucks, 988 00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 3: five hundred bucks, two thousand bucks at this because they 989 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 3: know within a statistical certainty almost that they're going to 990 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,520 Speaker 3: get that money back, and then some yeah, and. 991 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,800 Speaker 1: So there's there's a percentage of customers that they retain, 992 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,520 Speaker 1: and then those customers they retain, the vast majority of 993 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,200 Speaker 1: the retained customers will pay back and that'll make an 994 00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: that'll make up. And they've got a cost of acquisition, 995 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,799 Speaker 1: like you can I mean, they're publicly traded. You can 996 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 1: look at their their you know, filings for like a 997 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,680 Speaker 1: quarter or two whatever, and they've got a cost of acquisition. 998 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: And they talk about like reduce seeing the cost of 999 00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: acquisition and increasing you know, or hold, which is the 1000 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: percentage that they make on each bet. That it's a 1001 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: whole kind of element. But one thing that is kind 1002 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,600 Speaker 1: of interesting about the way that they manage these books 1003 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:20,279 Speaker 1: is that if you begin winning and here's this is 1004 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,240 Speaker 1: going to go super in the weeds. There's a different 1005 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:26,319 Speaker 1: definition of winning they use for this particular determination, which 1006 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: I'll get into in a second. But if you begin 1007 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,440 Speaker 1: winning a lot at a really high percentage, they will 1008 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: start reducing your limit. And your limit is the amount 1009 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: that you can bet on a single bet. And so 1010 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: if I'm a new fan duel customer, I believe my 1011 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: limit is one thousand dollars, and if I get pretty 1012 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:47,720 Speaker 1: bad at gambling, my limit will expand to two thousand 1013 00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,279 Speaker 1: and five twenty thousand. But if I'm pretty good, they'll 1014 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: start reducing my limit to, you know, five hundred and 1015 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: two fifty all the way down to a dollar. And 1016 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 1: so you get good, you actually don't really have a 1017 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,120 Speaker 1: lot of opportunity to make money. And so the thing 1018 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: I was going to get at is they don't actually 1019 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,760 Speaker 1: determine it based off of whether or not you've made money. 1020 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: They determine it based off of whether or not the 1021 00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:13,680 Speaker 1: bet that you made at the time you made it 1022 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,800 Speaker 1: anticipated the closing line value of the bet. So markets 1023 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: move right. Betting markets move based in response to who's 1024 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,840 Speaker 1: doing the betting, And so it's actually not critically important 1025 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:30,240 Speaker 1: that the people setting the odds for any particular bet 1026 00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:34,799 Speaker 1: are laser precise accurate about what those odds truly are. 1027 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,880 Speaker 1: They have to be accurate to a certain degree. But 1028 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 1: what ends up happening is that a certain amount of 1029 00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:39,799 Speaker 1: money goes one way on a bet, and a certain 1030 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:41,279 Speaker 1: amount of money goes on another way in a bet, 1031 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: and that moves the line, and over the course of 1032 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,360 Speaker 1: the lifetime of that bet until the game actually starts. 1033 00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,919 Speaker 1: You get a closing line value, and if you beat 1034 00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 1: the closing line value, they determine that you're a sharp gambler. 1035 00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: And if you do that I think like sixty percent 1036 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: of the time or something like that, they start reducing 1037 00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 1: your limits. 1038 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 2: So it's really hard to make money. Even like the 1039 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,440 Speaker 2: traditional idea of winning is the thing. It's like this 1040 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 2: weird matriculated bullshit so that they could will never let 1041 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 2: you win, then will never let you right, you never 1042 00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:10,720 Speaker 2: win on your terms. 1043 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 3: It's even even when you win that kind of They 1044 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,279 Speaker 3: advertise this as like a skill based situation, and you 1045 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:20,359 Speaker 3: just need to understand that even if it was a 1046 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 3: fair fight, if they didn't move the lines, if they 1047 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 3: didn't do all these things that Drip was talking about, 1048 00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,600 Speaker 3: they still have you will never outsmart them because they 1049 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 3: have teams of analysts that make these bets, and they're 1050 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:32,360 Speaker 3: very good at it, and they've been doing it for 1051 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,839 Speaker 3: a long time, and they have algorithms to watch this stuff. 1052 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,560 Speaker 1: So access to proprietary data too that you won't have 1053 00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,640 Speaker 1: access to exactly. I mean, So, for example, there's a 1054 00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:44,920 Speaker 1: product that I think is very good called pro Football 1055 00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:49,760 Speaker 1: Focus Ultimate Profoble Focus is a data firm that covers 1056 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:54,640 Speaker 1: football and their Ultimate package, which gives you access to 1057 00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: granular level data like, you know, every individual play you 1058 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,440 Speaker 1: can see, you know, if a pass was caught at 1059 00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,480 Speaker 1: what yard line that pass was caught, how many yards 1060 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,800 Speaker 1: after they catch that player you know, generated after the catch, 1061 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: how many tackles that player beat on the way to 1062 00:51:10,760 --> 00:51:11,279 Speaker 1: doing that? 1063 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,880 Speaker 2: So that you insane the ground here? Do they have 1064 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,359 Speaker 2: a level below that that somehow these people or they 1065 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 2: get access to that. 1066 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,000 Speaker 1: Well, they get access to that because it's a two 1067 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:20,360 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars package. 1068 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 2: Oh so they have advantages yeah, d never even unless 1069 00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:28,000 Speaker 2: we were insanely rich. Yeah, and no one who's doing 1070 00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 2: that is doing that. 1071 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, nobody who's who's doing this has the money to 1072 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:31,640 Speaker 3: spend on that. 1073 00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:34,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so they get access to the proprietary data 1074 00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 1: which they can use to kind of create these models. 1075 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 1: Those models help set the lines. It's very difficult to beat. 1076 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 3: And then they give that insanely granular data to a 1077 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,400 Speaker 3: team of analyst perverts that will then set the lines. 1078 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like the ultimate management consultant thing because 1079 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:54,440 Speaker 2: it's barely about sports anymore, it's not even about winning. 1080 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 2: And another betting thing only recently understand came to understand 1081 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:02,160 Speaker 2: even was the concept of unders and OVAs, where they 1082 00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 2: will set a point amount. Like, actually, Caleb, can you 1083 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 2: explain what an over in and under is? Because it's important 1084 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,080 Speaker 2: to explain that you can't just bet on whether someone 1085 00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:10,800 Speaker 2: wins or loses. 1086 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, I could do my best. Again, just the very 1087 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 3: basic of what it means. Yeah, and if you may 1088 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,720 Speaker 3: have to correct now this because again it's not legal 1089 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:19,920 Speaker 3: in my state, so I've never actually done it. Okay, 1090 00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:23,480 Speaker 3: So they don't like it's called the spread, right, So 1091 00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,759 Speaker 3: if you're if the team is under, this is kind 1092 00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,759 Speaker 3: of confusing. If the team is the under, that means 1093 00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 3: they're the favorite by however many points. 1094 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 1: Right, kind of, so we wouldn't call them the under rights. 1095 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,760 Speaker 1: But if the team is the favorite, they're like minus 1096 00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,200 Speaker 1: one and a half, right or whatever. So for example, 1097 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,360 Speaker 1: the Chiefs in this game opened at minus one and 1098 00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:44,160 Speaker 1: a half. That means that the betting line is essentially 1099 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: if you subtract one and a half points from the Chiefs, 1100 00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:48,240 Speaker 1: who wins the game? 1101 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:48,640 Speaker 2: Right? 1102 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:49,840 Speaker 1: If you bet on the Chiefs, you bet on the 1103 00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:51,919 Speaker 1: Chiefs to win by at least two points or more. 1104 00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 1: If you bet in the Eagles, you either bet on 1105 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: them to win out right or lose by about a 1106 00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:57,080 Speaker 1: point or less. 1107 00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:58,879 Speaker 2: So you can't just bet win or lose. 1108 00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: You can, but the odds are yeah, and so what 1109 00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,799 Speaker 1: and so that's called a money line bet, where you 1110 00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:10,160 Speaker 1: just bet outright on the winner of the loser. But 1111 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: there are different odds for that. So that's where you 1112 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,439 Speaker 1: get stuff like plus two thirty and minus one ten 1113 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,239 Speaker 1: and minus one thy. So what plus two thirty means 1114 00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,800 Speaker 1: is if I bet one hundred dollars, I will receive 1115 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,480 Speaker 1: and I win, I get one hundred dollars back plus 1116 00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: two hundred and thirty dollars. If I bet minus two thirty, 1117 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,440 Speaker 1: I would need to bet two hundred and thirty dollars 1118 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:33,799 Speaker 1: in order to get not just my original bet back, 1119 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,439 Speaker 1: but one hundred dollars. It is, So it's it's kind 1120 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: of confusing. 1121 00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:39,880 Speaker 2: No, it's and I assume by design. 1122 00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:42,680 Speaker 1: Sure, I mean, this is a system that is like 1123 00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,840 Speaker 1: sixty seventy years old, So I don't know. 1124 00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,279 Speaker 3: It's four people that are on the strip back. They're 1125 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,680 Speaker 3: the hoople heads that are seven beers deep. They're going 1126 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,520 Speaker 3: to say, yes, we ball put fifty on the packers 1127 00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:54,359 Speaker 3: or whatever. 1128 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,960 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And so you can convert those odds into 1129 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:03,319 Speaker 1: the percentages, so like a minus. Okay, it's actually more 1130 00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:06,839 Speaker 1: complicated than this, but the the minus one hand would 1131 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,880 Speaker 1: suggest I believe like a forty six percent or whatever 1132 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: odds that you know, whatever the bet is. But the 1133 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,560 Speaker 1: problem is if two teams are evenly matched, so if 1134 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,920 Speaker 1: the spread is pk or pick them right, zero right 1135 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: either way. So if the spread is pick them and 1136 00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,919 Speaker 1: each team was equally likely to win, right, you would 1137 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:31,319 Speaker 1: get probably in most books, in well most books a 1138 00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,640 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, minus one hundred and five odds. 1139 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,319 Speaker 2: So the thing is, I'm sure people are a little 1140 00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,600 Speaker 2: bit lost now because I slightly am but actually I 1141 00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,520 Speaker 2: think that's kind of illustrative of how fucking weird this is. Yes, 1142 00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 2: these are the numbers that are just on the TV 1143 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:46,560 Speaker 2: being thrown at. 1144 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: You old minus five plus two ten and. 1145 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:50,960 Speaker 2: You open the app and the app is screaming at 1146 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,000 Speaker 2: you just like, hey, you should try this. Why don't 1147 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:53,879 Speaker 2: you fucking try this? 1148 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,680 Speaker 3: Saicon Barkley is minus two thirty is sure? What the hell? 1149 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:03,080 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, And like the thing is so I described 1150 00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,279 Speaker 1: that like both of those even bets are minus one 1151 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,080 Speaker 1: of five. If you bet on the coin toss, it's 1152 00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:09,920 Speaker 1: minus one of five, right, Like, that's the So. 1153 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,640 Speaker 2: You would need to put one hundred and five dollars 1154 00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:12,800 Speaker 2: down to make one hundred. 1155 00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:17,920 Speaker 1: Dollars correct gone, which obviously suggests that you know, you, 1156 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,800 Speaker 1: your odds of being correct have to be not just higher, 1157 00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,200 Speaker 1: but substantially higher than what the implied odds are by 1158 00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: the book, because they're gonna make money on the coin flip, right, Like, 1159 00:55:29,080 --> 00:55:31,040 Speaker 1: there's no question that they're making money. 1160 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,080 Speaker 3: And yet, by the way, while we were talking about this, 1161 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,759 Speaker 3: before I googled it, hundreds of thousands of dollars will 1162 00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:37,920 Speaker 3: be bet on the coin today. 1163 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,160 Speaker 2: Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah, that's so fucking horrible. 1164 00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:46,480 Speaker 2: This is the thing Like earlier on in this show's existence, 1165 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:48,800 Speaker 2: I was definitely like mad at the tech industry, and 1166 00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:50,520 Speaker 2: people like, why you're so mad? It is stuff like 1167 00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,680 Speaker 2: this because they've managed to find a way to do 1168 00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,520 Speaker 2: to turn gambling into online gaming, to turn it into 1169 00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:02,800 Speaker 2: to introduce the sets of gambling and micro transaction gaming 1170 00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:06,520 Speaker 2: and just the horrors of online advertising because this is 1171 00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,040 Speaker 2: selling hope and industry over something you could never hope 1172 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:09,719 Speaker 2: to understand. 1173 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,799 Speaker 3: Well, every like the stuff that we talked about, ostensibly 1174 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,640 Speaker 3: good aspects of sports, whether you agree or not, all 1175 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 3: of that, even from my perspective, somebody who does love 1176 00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:21,800 Speaker 3: them is being destroyed by this. Every aspect of tradition, 1177 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:25,160 Speaker 3: all the ostensible social good that could come from this 1178 00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:27,719 Speaker 3: is being completely gutted by this industry. And how do 1179 00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,520 Speaker 3: you mean, because it takes away it's like the anti sport. 1180 00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,960 Speaker 3: It takes it something that could be a potentially positive thing, 1181 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 3: and it turns into like a torment nexus, you know 1182 00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:36,719 Speaker 3: what I mean? 1183 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Well, so, like there are a couple of 1184 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,400 Speaker 1: things that kind of stood out to me that like 1185 00:56:41,480 --> 00:56:44,560 Speaker 1: motivated me to write about it, which was that, like 1186 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,239 Speaker 1: every interaction that you see in a game is no 1187 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,200 Speaker 1: longer taken for the implications that it has for the 1188 00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:53,400 Speaker 1: team of the player, no longer taken for kind of 1189 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:57,680 Speaker 1: the narrative value that that has, but it's all concentrated 1190 00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,160 Speaker 1: on this. Did someone win a bet on this kind 1191 00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:04,359 Speaker 1: of question? Yeah? So, for example, ESPN, which is the 1192 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,120 Speaker 1: worldwide leader in sports coverage, a name they made it 1193 00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:11,840 Speaker 1: for themselves and earned in fairness, they are the dominant, 1194 00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:16,200 Speaker 1: they're the hegemony when it comes to sports coverage. They 1195 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: have a partnership with I think it's Penn Sportsbook, So 1196 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,080 Speaker 1: they have a product called ESPN bet, which, in my opinion, 1197 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 1: undercuts their journalistic integrity. But that's a different topic. So 1198 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,360 Speaker 1: they've got a bunch of social arms called ESPN Bet, right, 1199 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:35,560 Speaker 1: the kind of a TikTok channel, YouTube channel whatever. Right, 1200 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:42,360 Speaker 1: And there's this Giants game where Devin Singletary, one of 1201 00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,760 Speaker 1: the running backs for the Giants, is it's near the 1202 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,800 Speaker 1: end of the game and he's and he broke free, right, 1203 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 1: so he you know, he got the ball. Run, big run, 1204 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,720 Speaker 1: He gets past all the defenders. He broke free to 1205 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,720 Speaker 1: the end of the game. The Giants are already ahead, 1206 00:57:55,560 --> 00:58:00,920 Speaker 1: and so if he scores, that doesn't meaningfleet change the Giants' 1207 00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,200 Speaker 1: odds of winning, but it does give the other team 1208 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:06,800 Speaker 1: the balls. In fact, it might even decrease the Giants 1209 00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,120 Speaker 1: odds of winning because the other team now has an 1210 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,240 Speaker 1: opportunity to respond. They've got possession and they can score points. Right, 1211 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,520 Speaker 1: So what he does is he runs all the way 1212 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,680 Speaker 1: to the five yard line and then goes down so 1213 00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,040 Speaker 1: that the Giants retained possession, they can drain the clock 1214 00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:27,240 Speaker 1: finish the game with the win. Great move, like it's 1215 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:31,840 Speaker 1: a tactically correct move. It's selfless, Yeah, because he benefits. 1216 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,000 Speaker 1: He's got like a contract incentives. And you know when 1217 00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,040 Speaker 1: he when his contract comes up, he's going to negotiate 1218 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,920 Speaker 1: from new contract. The statistics, those extra five yards a touchdown, whatever, 1219 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:44,880 Speaker 1: those statistics will be used in his negotiation there. And 1220 00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: maybe he has a contract incentive that gives him more 1221 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,520 Speaker 1: money for touchdowns. Right, So he's making a selfless move 1222 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:53,880 Speaker 1: to improve the team's odds of winning. It's always a 1223 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,280 Speaker 1: good story. Some running backs will do this, maybe a 1224 00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:57,560 Speaker 1: couple of times a year or whatever. 1225 00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:58,760 Speaker 2: It's awesome. I love it. Yeah. 1226 00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:08,040 Speaker 1: And and ESPN bet put out a TikTok saying, Devin 1227 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:13,200 Speaker 1: Singletary goes down to ensure the Giants hit the under 1228 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,160 Speaker 1: and the under is the total amount of point scored 1229 00:59:15,160 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: in the game. And in that game, I forget the thing. 1230 00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,080 Speaker 1: Maybe in the Washington the Giants and Commanders go under the 1231 00:59:22,480 --> 00:59:26,200 Speaker 1: projected point total by the books. And I think my 1232 00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:31,160 Speaker 1: opinion is that ESPN bet really poorly used the language 1233 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,880 Speaker 1: of their platform because it suggested that singletary did that 1234 00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:40,480 Speaker 1: on purpose in order to accomplish a gambling goal, in 1235 00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,240 Speaker 1: order for the for whoever was betting on the under 1236 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:47,120 Speaker 1: to cash in. And it's just that I think they 1237 00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,800 Speaker 1: just meant he did this, and so therefore the underhit. 1238 00:59:50,520 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 1: Either way, I don't like it. 1239 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:53,880 Speaker 2: It's poisonous. It's poison to culture. 1240 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:11,280 Speaker 3: This shouldn't be happening at all. Yeah, to begin with, 1241 01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,560 Speaker 3: it's destroying, like the product is becoming almost unrecognizable at 1242 01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:14,880 Speaker 3: this point. 1243 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:16,120 Speaker 2: Can you go into more detail then? 1244 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean just even just a few years ago, 1245 01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:20,360 Speaker 3: that would have never happened. We wouldn't have even heard 1246 01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,560 Speaker 3: about that. Yeah, just even two seasons ago, probably, I 1247 01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:24,640 Speaker 3: would say two three seasons. 1248 01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:28,800 Speaker 1: You might get a mention on Sports Center because Scott 1249 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,280 Speaker 1: Van Pelt does a bad beat kind of thing. But 1250 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,320 Speaker 1: it was like a fun like, oh, you know if 1251 01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:34,640 Speaker 1: you bet on the under, like ooh. 1252 01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,120 Speaker 3: Whatever, it's some wacky corner of the site that's not 1253 01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:38,240 Speaker 3: really that important. 1254 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 2: Versus what is likely a huge revenue media. 1255 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,440 Speaker 3: Narrative, especially considering like and I mean I'm not going 1256 01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:46,520 Speaker 3: to be the person that says the NFL is rigged. 1257 01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,840 Speaker 3: I think that there's no evidence just to really suggest 1258 01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,440 Speaker 3: any level of that. But as these lines get blurred, 1259 01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,200 Speaker 3: and the NFL does have a history of there's Daniel 1260 01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,720 Speaker 3: Day's book Interference goes into this. This is Mind You, 1261 01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,000 Speaker 3: published in the late eighties or something, so he's talking 1262 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,320 Speaker 3: about the sixties and seventies when the NFL was acutely 1263 01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:09,160 Speaker 3: aware of owners and players relationship with gambling sportsbooks. I'm 1264 01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 3: gonized crime and it's not conspiracy stuff. This is like 1265 01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 3: all police cases and FBI files that he's sourcing this from. 1266 01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,360 Speaker 3: And I just think that for the league's perspective, it 1267 01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,120 Speaker 3: is a really really bad look that these lines are 1268 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:22,200 Speaker 3: as blurred as they are now. 1269 01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:24,320 Speaker 2: And the thing is as well. This is again a 1270 01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,160 Speaker 2: uniquely software based thing and a uniquely Internet culture based thing, 1271 01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,840 Speaker 2: because you can see these stats in minu shape, the 1272 01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:35,040 Speaker 2: minutiae of them. You can see them instantly. Your little 1273 01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:38,520 Speaker 2: fucking phone with the beautiful Internet connection that used to 1274 01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,960 Speaker 2: allow you to send posts to friends is now just 1275 01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:45,400 Speaker 2: like an actual portal to Vegas in a more craven way. Though, 1276 01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:47,640 Speaker 2: I say this, with our beautiful slot machines, which we 1277 01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:52,320 Speaker 2: love so much. It feels like an evil version of gambling, 1278 01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,960 Speaker 2: which is already fairly evil in that it is now 1279 01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:59,680 Speaker 2: poisoning the actual culture around it, because so you don't 1280 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:01,920 Speaker 2: need to know anything about basketball for this. So right 1281 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:04,400 Speaker 2: now there is a big scandal going on with Miami 1282 01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,880 Speaker 2: Heat player Terry Rosier, who's under investigation in connection with 1283 01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,400 Speaker 2: sports betting scandal. Yep, and now there is just this 1284 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,960 Speaker 2: weird thing of like you said, Caleb, it isn't scripted 1285 01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:18,240 Speaker 2: or anything, but all play is doing shit now with. 1286 01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,400 Speaker 3: Fizz of that, like there is more financial incentive. Here's 1287 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:23,880 Speaker 3: what I will say, there's more financial incentive than ever. 1288 01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:27,920 Speaker 3: Than ever, The lines are more blurred than ever, you know. 1289 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,560 Speaker 1: I don't yeah, And so what I don't like is 1290 01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,840 Speaker 1: that whenever a player makes a mistake, we have to 1291 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,440 Speaker 1: ask that question. Right. That's the thing that really bothers me, 1292 01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,640 Speaker 1: because now we can't think of players as people who 1293 01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,840 Speaker 1: can make mistakes. And one of the beautiful things about 1294 01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,840 Speaker 1: sports is recognizing the humanity in others, right, right, understanding 1295 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:47,320 Speaker 1: like that these mistakes occur, and that you know they 1296 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:48,720 Speaker 1: weigh heavily on or whatever. 1297 01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:52,400 Speaker 3: Rights of the phrase. Any given Sunday is right exactly. 1298 01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:54,520 Speaker 1: And you know, the Giants beating the Patriots and the 1299 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,040 Speaker 1: Patriots were undefeated. It was just an outstanding story, right, 1300 01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,040 Speaker 1: and now you're thinking, wow, you know a lot of 1301 01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,080 Speaker 1: people had money on the Patriots going under the Patriots throwing. 1302 01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,400 Speaker 2: And they're promoting these stories in their sites. They're saying 1303 01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:06,760 Speaker 2: how much. 1304 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so this is the media focus. 1305 01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:09,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1306 01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:10,880 Speaker 1: And so that's the thing that really bothers me is 1307 01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:15,160 Speaker 1: that all of this content, which already kind of hate 1308 01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,120 Speaker 1: the word content, but all of this content is now 1309 01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,720 Speaker 1: about gambling. So you talk about how your phone is 1310 01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:22,840 Speaker 1: this poor old of Vegas, but also when you try to, 1311 01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:24,080 Speaker 1: you know, get out of. 1312 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:26,840 Speaker 2: You actually cannot use these apps in the which is 1313 01:03:26,840 --> 01:03:27,280 Speaker 2: really funny. 1314 01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think it's well, you can if you 1315 01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:32,000 Speaker 1: go physically into the sports book and enable the sports 1316 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,000 Speaker 1: books app from inside this. It's very fun Yeah, it's 1317 01:03:36,080 --> 01:03:43,280 Speaker 1: very funny. Crazy I found that out. But but yeah, 1318 01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:48,160 Speaker 1: and so like you can, like you'll get like a notification, 1319 01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:50,000 Speaker 1: Like I've got like four notifications on my phone right 1320 01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:54,680 Speaker 1: now from like various fantasy whatever, and they're like, hey, 1321 01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,200 Speaker 1: you haven't bet in like a week is here's one 1322 01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:59,800 Speaker 1: hundred dollars please you could do that, or I can 1323 01:03:59,840 --> 01:04:02,080 Speaker 1: just get rid of the notifications. But then the notifications 1324 01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:04,480 Speaker 1: from the Athletic which I follow for my work as 1325 01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,040 Speaker 1: a football writer, are like, hey, here are the lines 1326 01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:09,360 Speaker 1: on the Super Bowl, and I get rid of that, 1327 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:12,320 Speaker 1: and then you know, the next the next notification will 1328 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,560 Speaker 1: be from my Google News alerts, and the Google News 1329 01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,200 Speaker 1: alert will be, hey, did Devin Singletary do this in 1330 01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,200 Speaker 1: order to do that? And it's just like everything is 1331 01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:27,080 Speaker 1: either gambling or about content about gambling or content that 1332 01:04:27,200 --> 01:04:30,320 Speaker 1: points to gambling, right, And it's like the storylines are 1333 01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,120 Speaker 1: about gambling. The way I engage with the game is 1334 01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:34,880 Speaker 1: about gambling. And the end, you know, it's my fault 1335 01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:36,920 Speaker 1: for installing the fantasy apps on my phone, but then 1336 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:41,320 Speaker 1: the fantasy apps are just like it's all everything orients 1337 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,640 Speaker 1: itself around the ability to make money off of what 1338 01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:50,200 Speaker 1: is ultimately, you know, a storytelling device, right, and it 1339 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:51,680 Speaker 1: just it sucks. 1340 01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,880 Speaker 2: And it's and so Caleb, you you don't gamble right? 1341 01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:58,840 Speaker 3: No, now, I depends how you define it, right. I 1342 01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,000 Speaker 3: want to be clear about this. I play fantasy football 1343 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:01,680 Speaker 3: every year and I have. 1344 01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:04,800 Speaker 2: So and just just to delineate, fantasy football is not 1345 01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,200 Speaker 2: a money based thing unless you put into a yeah 1346 01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:07,480 Speaker 2: you don't. 1347 01:05:07,560 --> 01:05:10,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, most people play fantasy, don't put in more than 1348 01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:11,440 Speaker 1: like ten bucks. 1349 01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:13,800 Speaker 3: We all put in about twenty to thirty bucks to 1350 01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,400 Speaker 3: make sure everybody stays accountable, sets their lineup. It's not 1351 01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:17,760 Speaker 3: really about winning money. 1352 01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,360 Speaker 2: Right, right, But it's not like in mission. You don't 1353 01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,120 Speaker 2: have to like give your credit card or anything. 1354 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:22,960 Speaker 3: You can just between it's in form. 1355 01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:24,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're like venmo or. 1356 01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,360 Speaker 2: Whatever, but that isn't really gambling. That's just like kind 1357 01:05:26,360 --> 01:05:27,800 Speaker 2: of dicking around with friends, right. 1358 01:05:27,840 --> 01:05:30,920 Speaker 1: And he's describing what's season long fantasy. 1359 01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:33,680 Speaker 2: Which is separate though from the money fantasy though. 1360 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, from the type of fantasy that's being promoted, which 1361 01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:37,560 Speaker 1: is daily fantasy. 1362 01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:37,959 Speaker 2: Right. 1363 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:40,920 Speaker 1: They call it daily for football, it's weekly, but whatever, 1364 01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:44,280 Speaker 1: it's daily for basketball, baseball, whatever. But you can you 1365 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,479 Speaker 1: can set your fantasy lineup for the day that day, 1366 01:05:48,400 --> 01:05:51,200 Speaker 1: put in like twenty dollars on your lineup, and then 1367 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:53,880 Speaker 1: repeat that lineup twenty times. Put in twenty dollars every 1368 01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:57,080 Speaker 1: single time, right, and then at the end of the 1369 01:05:57,160 --> 01:05:58,640 Speaker 1: day you'll have made or lost money, and you can 1370 01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:00,160 Speaker 1: react to that and do it again the next day. 1371 01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,720 Speaker 1: Were a season long, you do it once a year 1372 01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:05,880 Speaker 1: for like twenty bucks to win you know, maybe one 1373 01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:08,880 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty dollars, Like it's like, what are we doing? 1374 01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:14,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I just wanted to say also that what I 1375 01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:16,960 Speaker 3: described to you of like, oh, I'm gonna Venmo my 1376 01:06:17,040 --> 01:06:20,520 Speaker 3: friend for fantasy you actually have to lie on all 1377 01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:23,520 Speaker 3: the apps when you send your fantasy winnings because that's 1378 01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:25,400 Speaker 3: illegal and they can shut down your account for that. 1379 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,040 Speaker 1: Which is crazy because I just use emojis. Yeah, exactly, never, 1380 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:29,720 Speaker 1: it doesn't really happen. 1381 01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:31,720 Speaker 3: But if you they can flag it. If you say 1382 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:33,920 Speaker 3: fantasy football and like the note or whatever, they can 1383 01:06:33,960 --> 01:06:34,200 Speaker 3: do that. 1384 01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,840 Speaker 1: Oh wow, I don't know. There you go. 1385 01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:38,960 Speaker 3: And that's more regulated than crypto dot com doing their 1386 01:06:39,240 --> 01:06:41,240 Speaker 3: Rube Goldberg system. 1387 01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:44,919 Speaker 1: If you buy a token which is on the Heerium chain, 1388 01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:48,360 Speaker 1: and that token what activates when Patrick Mahomes passes for 1389 01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:49,400 Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty five. 1390 01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:53,080 Speaker 3: Which again, to be very clear, should be and I 1391 01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:57,040 Speaker 3: think many judges would agree, is also illegal. But who's 1392 01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:58,360 Speaker 3: going to stop them at this point? 1393 01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,200 Speaker 2: And I think the one of the things that I'm 1394 01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:04,200 Speaker 2: sure people will find insufferable but I think it's worth 1395 01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:07,360 Speaker 2: talking about, is this is another thing really heavily talked 1396 01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:12,240 Speaker 2: at the guys as well. Yeah, very heteronormative, says hat 1397 01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:16,280 Speaker 2: guy like, like, it's very much like for like the Fellas, 1398 01:07:16,520 --> 01:07:20,200 Speaker 2: and it's very male oriented, even the color schemes and 1399 01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:23,160 Speaker 2: the actors, and it's very aggressively And so you've got 1400 01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:26,440 Speaker 2: this other fucking problem with guys now where guys. 1401 01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:27,160 Speaker 1: Just add another one. 1402 01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:31,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, and guess what, who's uh the outside of sports, 1403 01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:34,520 Speaker 3: who's like the number one preveyor of like of ads 1404 01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:36,200 Speaker 3: for this ship is like red pill guys. 1405 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,120 Speaker 2: Yep, yeah, you know, because it's more more kind of noxious, 1406 01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,920 Speaker 2: nebulous masculinity thing of being like, be a big strong 1407 01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:43,880 Speaker 2: man and lose your mind. 1408 01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:45,680 Speaker 3: I don't tell your bitch wife that you lost fifty 1409 01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:47,640 Speaker 3: thousand dollars or whatever. Right, Like, that's right. 1410 01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:49,080 Speaker 2: Rise and Grind. 1411 01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:52,840 Speaker 1: It's very much in the Rise and Grind and culture. 1412 01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,040 Speaker 1: A lot of one of the I don't know if 1413 01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:57,440 Speaker 1: New York has actually done this yet, but one of 1414 01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:00,160 Speaker 1: the proposals in New York State was too bad and 1415 01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,280 Speaker 1: advertisements for these apps on college campuses. 1416 01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:05,680 Speaker 2: Oh my god, they can legally do that. 1417 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:09,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where a lot of advertise. 1418 01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,320 Speaker 2: On outside the college basketball games as well. Oh yeah, buddy, damn, 1419 01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:14,720 Speaker 2: this is so fucking But actually this does kind of 1420 01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:16,920 Speaker 2: play into it because it's like, what is happening to 1421 01:08:17,000 --> 01:08:18,760 Speaker 2: young men who are not the fucking victims. I'm not 1422 01:08:18,800 --> 01:08:22,120 Speaker 2: doing that, don't worry. It's just like things to terrorize 1423 01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:23,000 Speaker 2: people one of the. 1424 01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,519 Speaker 3: Young men now, and again not saying that they shouldn't 1425 01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:27,920 Speaker 3: be able to count by the victims whatever, but it 1426 01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:31,080 Speaker 3: rids me of like those baby turtles that are born 1427 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:32,720 Speaker 3: in the sand and they have to race to the 1428 01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,160 Speaker 3: ocean before the birds swoop down and eat them all. 1429 01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,280 Speaker 3: And the birds are like crypto ads and red pill 1430 01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,680 Speaker 3: guys that are swooping up and eating these turtles. That's 1431 01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:42,320 Speaker 3: kind of and then they all just become bastards. 1432 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:45,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the thing that happens to women is those 1433 01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:49,920 Speaker 2: men right now. Yeah, maybe there's no no, no, no, 1434 01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:53,280 Speaker 2: it's the I'm just saying this because anytime I bring 1435 01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:55,240 Speaker 2: up the male load me in this epidemic, it's never 1436 01:08:55,320 --> 01:08:58,120 Speaker 2: a kind of well, men need to be treated, No, 1437 01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:00,560 Speaker 2: it's perhaps we need to look at the fucking conditions 1438 01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:03,439 Speaker 2: of society itself. Right, And then. 1439 01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,560 Speaker 1: We're throwing another kind of because like one of the 1440 01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,080 Speaker 1: natures of like one of the things about patriarchy is 1441 01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,760 Speaker 1: that it isolates people into particular roles. Those roles for 1442 01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:17,640 Speaker 1: men include things like bread winner, right, and they're the 1443 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,200 Speaker 1: ones that are, like, you know, in vibe with the 1444 01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,960 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial spirit, right, which is I guess gambling is entrepreneurship. 1445 01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,360 Speaker 2: No, no, it is, though it's the same rise in 1446 01:09:26,400 --> 01:09:28,320 Speaker 2: grind it is. It is because it's like you have 1447 01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:30,280 Speaker 2: power over stuff that you don't have power over. You 1448 01:09:30,400 --> 01:09:32,240 Speaker 2: just work hard and money will come out. Same way 1449 01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:33,920 Speaker 2: with this, you just gamble. 1450 01:09:33,640 --> 01:09:38,360 Speaker 1: Right, yeah. And so this is kind of another one 1451 01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:43,400 Speaker 1: of the pressures among the extant pressures that exist in 1452 01:09:43,640 --> 01:09:49,599 Speaker 1: patriarchy that produce these responses among young men that then 1453 01:09:49,760 --> 01:09:52,360 Speaker 1: those young men will like act out in the world, 1454 01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,840 Speaker 1: often on women, but like also another young man, right yeah. 1455 01:09:56,960 --> 01:09:59,360 Speaker 3: Patriarchy produces the drywall punchers, right. 1456 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:01,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, And then this is just that 1457 01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,559 Speaker 2: and it's it's funny and you've mentioned the entrepreneur asper 1458 01:10:05,680 --> 01:10:08,280 Speaker 2: because it really is, that's exactly that same genus of 1459 01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,240 Speaker 2: like focusing on guys and being like, yeah, you know, 1460 01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:14,880 Speaker 2: what's going wrong in your life is not actually something 1461 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:15,759 Speaker 2: caused bias system. 1462 01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:16,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, we shouldn't look at the system. 1463 01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,200 Speaker 2: Don't look at the system and definitely don't worry about 1464 01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:21,720 Speaker 2: being responsible for this. This is all happening to you, 1465 01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:24,280 Speaker 2: and instead of looking at the stuff actually happening to you, 1466 01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,960 Speaker 2: let's just look a woman, and you know what you 1467 01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:30,280 Speaker 2: actually need to do. You need to just it's neoliberalism, 1468 01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:33,639 Speaker 2: but right wing. I guess, well, maybe I repeat myself, 1469 01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:38,600 Speaker 2: but it's the sense of selfish kind of producer that 1470 01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:42,400 Speaker 2: only comes from hard work. Well despite the fact that you, yeah, 1471 01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:44,240 Speaker 2: but despite the fact that hard work is not what 1472 01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:47,559 Speaker 2: any of this is. Being an entrepreneur, a successful entrepreneur 1473 01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,600 Speaker 2: is like tons of luck, having the privilege to be 1474 01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:51,880 Speaker 2: in the right place at the right time. 1475 01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:56,240 Speaker 1: If you look at a lot of the entrepreneurship like 1476 01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:58,680 Speaker 1: YouTube videos or whatever, a lot of it's just like 1477 01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:01,680 Speaker 1: drop shipping. It's like, okay, cool, just a scam. 1478 01:11:01,760 --> 01:11:07,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, but like there's a there's a reason. 1479 01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:09,840 Speaker 3: Like another episode we'll talk about drop shipping. 1480 01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:13,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, but like there's a reason, Like we can find 1481 01:11:13,720 --> 01:11:15,679 Speaker 1: a lot of the same figures throughout all of these 1482 01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:21,040 Speaker 1: like micro trends of like entrepreneurship masculinity. Like Gary Vaynerchuk 1483 01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: is doing like motivational drop shipping content and then he 1484 01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:28,040 Speaker 1: does crypto content, and then he does NFT content, and 1485 01:11:28,080 --> 01:11:29,559 Speaker 1: now he's doing sports scampling content. 1486 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,160 Speaker 3: Sorry, but the concept of somebody who did for many 1487 01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:34,479 Speaker 3: years work in e commerce and like not drop shipping 1488 01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,679 Speaker 3: although yeah, but just like as an actual e commerce 1489 01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:40,800 Speaker 3: marketing person motivational e commerce content makes me want to 1490 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:42,040 Speaker 3: blow my brains out. 1491 01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:43,639 Speaker 1: You know, I'm describing a thing that's. 1492 01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:47,640 Speaker 3: Really I know, I'm acutely aware of the thing that 1493 01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,360 Speaker 3: you're talking about. It's like a like I feel like 1494 01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:54,240 Speaker 3: like an animal the serengety where I just my predator 1495 01:11:54,280 --> 01:11:56,080 Speaker 3: prey sense went off, like oh my god. 1496 01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:58,679 Speaker 1: But yeah, like someone like Gary Vee was in all 1497 01:11:58,920 --> 01:11:59,880 Speaker 1: of those. 1498 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:03,840 Speaker 2: Is he doing sports patting content? Yeah, Jesus Christ, that 1499 01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 2: man's a fucking monster. 1500 01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:06,000 Speaker 1: He is evil. 1501 01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:07,600 Speaker 2: I want to do we should do it Behind the 1502 01:12:07,640 --> 01:12:10,960 Speaker 2: Bastards episode and that piece of shit. Fuck you, Gary Vaynerchuk. 1503 01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,599 Speaker 2: I hope you hear this, you freak. You'll never You'll 1504 01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:20,240 Speaker 2: never buy the jets anyway. It's just the reason. Another 1505 01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:22,280 Speaker 2: reason I mean that I wanted to do this episode 1506 01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,559 Speaker 2: is it feels uniquely part of a way in which 1507 01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,439 Speaker 2: the Internet is being poisoned, where so much, so many 1508 01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:30,400 Speaker 2: content empires now based on the same ones that do 1509 01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:32,800 Speaker 2: the article that's what time is the Super Bowl? So 1510 01:12:32,840 --> 01:12:35,200 Speaker 2: they can rank on Google. Now you've got oh the 1511 01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:37,120 Speaker 2: right picks for sports gambling. 1512 01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:39,599 Speaker 3: It's the same problem, just in a different shape, right. 1513 01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:43,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's really sad as well. And again 1514 01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:45,880 Speaker 2: I'm gonna repeat this every time, like it's not saying 1515 01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:48,639 Speaker 2: men don't. Men have fucking accountability regardless of whether they've 1516 01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:50,639 Speaker 2: been twisted by the Internet, but we should at least 1517 01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:51,799 Speaker 2: consider the forces twisting. 1518 01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:53,720 Speaker 3: You're ever gonna fix the problem, you eventually have to 1519 01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,040 Speaker 3: look at the system in which these people are brought up, right. 1520 01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:58,519 Speaker 2: Right, And it's you see, it's the same thing you've 1521 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,519 Speaker 2: seen with red pilling. It's the same thing you see 1522 01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:03,519 Speaker 2: with pretty much in any mgtow thing. It's just this 1523 01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:05,760 Speaker 2: sense of, hey, you feel helpless. Do you want to 1524 01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,439 Speaker 2: rise up against the thing that makes you feel helpless? Oh? 1525 01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:10,720 Speaker 2: Oh sorry, but don't worry, we won't make you do 1526 01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:13,360 Speaker 2: the inconvenient work of actually understanding things. Well. 1527 01:13:13,360 --> 01:13:15,599 Speaker 3: That's why, like when we're talking about this before, one 1528 01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,080 Speaker 3: of the football or sports is important, is because even 1529 01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:23,400 Speaker 3: if you're from a utilitarian perspective, you don't care about sports. 1530 01:13:23,800 --> 01:13:26,080 Speaker 3: It is too big of a ground to seed to 1531 01:13:26,160 --> 01:13:29,040 Speaker 3: these kinds of people. You shouldn't ever seed that ground, right, 1532 01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:30,720 Speaker 3: We can't allow them to take this over. 1533 01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:33,680 Speaker 2: And they're trying, they're trying, really fucking a very good 1534 01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:36,400 Speaker 2: job of it. And it's the reason they're able to 1535 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:39,120 Speaker 2: is because there's these noxious companies that are twisting people up, 1536 01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:41,559 Speaker 2: young people, and it is not just young men, but 1537 01:13:41,600 --> 01:13:44,840 Speaker 2: really it's heavily targeted against men. They grow up, they 1538 01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:47,400 Speaker 2: can't get a house, They can't ever hope to get 1539 01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:49,080 Speaker 2: a house. Now it's not been the case for like 1540 01:13:49,120 --> 01:13:51,760 Speaker 2: fifteen twenty years. The average person just can't fucking save 1541 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:55,320 Speaker 2: the money. Meant, men are as many people are, but 1542 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,280 Speaker 2: like very targeted, and men told you must be big, strong, 1543 01:13:58,439 --> 01:14:00,880 Speaker 2: and you must have money, good, big, and if you 1544 01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:03,280 Speaker 2: don't have those things, you're not man. You're not man 1545 01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:05,439 Speaker 2: at all. You're woke and. 1546 01:14:06,040 --> 01:14:07,840 Speaker 3: You are soy, and you are woke. 1547 01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:15,320 Speaker 2: And then they attack aggressively with both convenient excuses and 1548 01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:18,719 Speaker 2: convenient ways to allegedly make money with these incredibly craven 1549 01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,519 Speaker 2: marketing systems perpetuated by the app stores. It's just fucking it. 1550 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:25,200 Speaker 2: Every time I think about this. I feel a little 1551 01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:28,439 Speaker 2: crazier because even coming into this, I didn't realize that 1552 01:14:28,479 --> 01:14:31,360 Speaker 2: the most common thing was just straight up gambling. I 1553 01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:32,920 Speaker 2: thought it was that you got they kind of like 1554 01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,000 Speaker 2: dodged around, like t he you just bet on a 1555 01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,400 Speaker 2: few players, right, No, it's just the straight up gambling now, 1556 01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:39,920 Speaker 2: and it's everywhere. And it doesn't sound like they even 1557 01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:42,760 Speaker 2: do like kys like I know your customer stuff, or 1558 01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:43,759 Speaker 2: if they do, it's. 1559 01:14:43,600 --> 01:14:48,360 Speaker 1: Like so so gambling does do know your customer stuff. 1560 01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:52,680 Speaker 2: But fantasy that's despite money going into it. Yeah, fucking brilliant. 1561 01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:56,800 Speaker 2: It's just like I And it's not just like we 1562 01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:59,120 Speaker 2: can't even say I hope it's made illegal. They're never 1563 01:14:59,160 --> 01:14:59,720 Speaker 2: gonna do that. 1564 01:15:00,040 --> 01:15:01,400 Speaker 1: That's definitely not happening. Yeah. 1565 01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:04,479 Speaker 2: I feel like everyone involved should be put in prison personally. 1566 01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:06,040 Speaker 2: So it doesn't look like Apple. 1567 01:15:05,800 --> 01:15:09,200 Speaker 1: Like they did try that with the DFS people a 1568 01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:13,880 Speaker 1: lot of like fifteen years ago, and about three or 1569 01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,240 Speaker 1: four of them did, and then the rest invented DFS. 1570 01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:21,280 Speaker 1: What is DFF Daily Fantasy Services. So these are so 1571 01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:24,320 Speaker 1: the people that were doing online poker stuff way back 1572 01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:28,160 Speaker 1: when Chris Moneymaker was big, like two thousand and four 1573 01:15:28,479 --> 01:15:34,320 Speaker 1: ish I want to say they those people, it turns out, 1574 01:15:34,360 --> 01:15:37,519 Speaker 1: were violating a bunch of laws about internet gambling. Three 1575 01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:39,599 Speaker 1: or four of them got you know, tagged for it. 1576 01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,840 Speaker 1: Then the rest of them left and invented Daily Fantasy, right. 1577 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,559 Speaker 2: And it's right now, by the way, on the app store. 1578 01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:49,200 Speaker 2: They don't actually advertise this stuff, so perhaps I was 1579 01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:51,360 Speaker 2: wrong saying they did. But there is the like number 1580 01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:57,240 Speaker 2: number let's see the number three in number four size 1581 01:15:57,280 --> 01:16:00,680 Speaker 2: DraftKings and then fangil and then prize picks. Those are 1582 01:16:00,680 --> 01:16:02,800 Speaker 2: the three, four and five coupaps right now. 1583 01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to my prize picks promos right now. 1584 01:16:07,439 --> 01:16:09,559 Speaker 1: If it's not clear I do engage in this, Yeah, 1585 01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:13,080 Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you about that. Yeah, and I've 1586 01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:16,160 Speaker 1: got like one million dollars super Sweat lineups. 1587 01:16:16,320 --> 01:16:16,880 Speaker 2: What does that? 1588 01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:20,200 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a combination of like, you know, 1589 01:16:20,240 --> 01:16:23,759 Speaker 1: they they like hire these influencers to like put together 1590 01:16:23,880 --> 01:16:26,559 Speaker 1: well in theory, they hire these influencers to put together 1591 01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:29,040 Speaker 1: their picks for the game, and then you can you 1592 01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:33,240 Speaker 1: can then nail their picks essentially horrifying. But yeah, there's 1593 01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:34,960 Speaker 1: tons of promos like in my. 1594 01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:38,400 Speaker 2: But as we wrap up RAF, so you do gamble 1595 01:16:38,439 --> 01:16:41,000 Speaker 2: on this stuff? Yeah, do you win? 1596 01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:44,840 Speaker 1: I have net made money on the year, right, I 1597 01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:48,200 Speaker 1: think a good chunk of that has been luck. Why 1598 01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:52,120 Speaker 1: do you do it? It's fun like it's that's it like 1599 01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:58,200 Speaker 1: one like the smallest. But the first reason is because 1600 01:16:58,479 --> 01:17:00,400 Speaker 1: it's important for me to be familiar with the stuff 1601 01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:03,000 Speaker 1: with the work that I do. But like, I wouldn't 1602 01:17:03,040 --> 01:17:05,719 Speaker 1: be gambling as much if that was the only reason. 1603 01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,960 Speaker 1: But no, I've been making a small amount of money 1604 01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:13,479 Speaker 1: on it, and so I've been doing it. I set 1605 01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:15,880 Speaker 1: like some pretty clear limits for myself because I am 1606 01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:22,600 Speaker 1: always concerned about having an addictive everything we've discussed. But 1607 01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:25,080 Speaker 1: what's interesting is that if I play for a couple 1608 01:17:25,120 --> 01:17:26,600 Speaker 1: of weeks and then I stopped playing for weeks to 1609 01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:30,440 Speaker 1: see how the apps engage me, because I get notifications, 1610 01:17:30,760 --> 01:17:34,000 Speaker 1: I get emails, Like when I went to London for 1611 01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:36,680 Speaker 1: the Vikings game. I also spent a week prior to 1612 01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:39,479 Speaker 1: that game just taking a vacation in Ireland, right, And 1613 01:17:39,560 --> 01:17:42,200 Speaker 1: so gambling is like legal in both of those places, 1614 01:17:42,240 --> 01:17:44,240 Speaker 1: but or sports gaming is legal in both of those places, 1615 01:17:44,479 --> 01:17:46,559 Speaker 1: but the apps I was using were not authorized in 1616 01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:48,960 Speaker 1: those places, and so I couldn't do it, and I 1617 01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:50,200 Speaker 1: was like, well, I'm not going to get a new app. 1618 01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:52,800 Speaker 1: I'm not going to deliver it. And I had to 1619 01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,839 Speaker 1: like bet in person in London. It was awful. 1620 01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:57,639 Speaker 2: Waiten to William Hill. 1621 01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:03,439 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I couldn't do a place called lad Brooks. 1622 01:18:03,720 --> 01:18:04,160 Speaker 1: I couldn't. 1623 01:18:04,280 --> 01:18:05,400 Speaker 2: Did you bet on the dogs? 1624 01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:05,720 Speaker 4: No? 1625 01:18:06,000 --> 01:18:07,080 Speaker 1: I only bet on football. 1626 01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:09,360 Speaker 2: There's still Do they still do greyhound rice? Yes? 1627 01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:11,519 Speaker 1: They definitely ever has that when I walk into the 1628 01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:15,759 Speaker 1: listing country. But yeah, And so I do it because 1629 01:18:15,840 --> 01:18:19,080 Speaker 1: it's it's fun. I do it because it's my work, 1630 01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:21,280 Speaker 1: and I do it because so far I've made a 1631 01:18:21,280 --> 01:18:24,080 Speaker 1: little bit of money. But I've been really hyper careful 1632 01:18:24,080 --> 01:18:26,640 Speaker 1: about like I've got a spreadsheet like this track of 1633 01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:31,679 Speaker 1: everything I've and I pay attention to what are called 1634 01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:35,240 Speaker 1: like reverse line moves when the majority of the tickets 1635 01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,280 Speaker 1: are on one side and the majority of the money 1636 01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:39,479 Speaker 1: is on the other side. I think it's the number 1637 01:18:39,520 --> 01:18:43,280 Speaker 1: of bets. So you would have let's say three people 1638 01:18:43,280 --> 01:18:45,280 Speaker 1: bet on Saquon Barkley to get one hundred and ten 1639 01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:50,280 Speaker 1: yards in this game, and then one person bets that 1640 01:18:50,360 --> 01:18:52,240 Speaker 1: he's going to get fewer than that many yards. But 1641 01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:55,360 Speaker 1: that person bets way more than those three people combined. 1642 01:18:55,920 --> 01:18:58,640 Speaker 1: What you get is a reverse line move where the 1643 01:18:58,680 --> 01:19:00,760 Speaker 1: line moves in the direction of the guy who bet 1644 01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:02,479 Speaker 1: a lot of money, even though I have tickets on 1645 01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:04,479 Speaker 1: that side. You pay attention to that, and you can 1646 01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:07,479 Speaker 1: see maybe there's some edges here or there. It's way 1647 01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:10,240 Speaker 1: in the weeds. They but they've got their hooks into 1648 01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:14,600 Speaker 1: some extent. Absolutely, no, I'm I'm forsaken. 1649 01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:17,559 Speaker 2: This is it's so great. And you're like a very 1650 01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:19,880 Speaker 2: intelligent like person, Like it's not You're not someone I 1651 01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:23,920 Speaker 2: would consider easily like tricked even though you're in the system. 1652 01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:25,920 Speaker 2: It's interesting how it can get its claws in. 1653 01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:29,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, And when when I started, I knew that I 1654 01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:34,720 Speaker 1: had to set really hard limits, and I knew that 1655 01:19:34,800 --> 01:19:37,360 Speaker 1: I had to make rules about you know, not chasing 1656 01:19:37,560 --> 01:19:40,920 Speaker 1: you know, good money after bad. Right, And so I 1657 01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:43,800 Speaker 1: set a limit for myself on the number of times 1658 01:19:43,840 --> 01:19:47,120 Speaker 1: a year I can deposit, which is three. I set 1659 01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:50,160 Speaker 1: a limit to how much I can put on one bet, 1660 01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:53,960 Speaker 1: which is I think. I think the limit I set 1661 01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:57,559 Speaker 1: was like eight percent of the total amount of money 1662 01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:00,960 Speaker 1: I have in that app on each individual bet. Right. 1663 01:20:02,200 --> 01:20:04,080 Speaker 1: And I say I think because I just started doing 1664 01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:05,600 Speaker 1: it kind of like by feel, because it's like, oh, 1665 01:20:05,600 --> 01:20:07,200 Speaker 1: i've got one hundred and fifty, I'll just put ten, 1666 01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:08,640 Speaker 1: you know, so right? 1667 01:20:08,840 --> 01:20:09,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 1668 01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:15,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, And so the only times I have broken 1669 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:17,200 Speaker 1: that limit once, but it's because I was offered an 1670 01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:19,559 Speaker 1: obscene promo, which is how they get you, right. But 1671 01:20:19,640 --> 01:20:21,240 Speaker 1: like as I got all deposit again because I that's 1672 01:20:21,280 --> 01:20:24,080 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty bucks, right, So I put in 1673 01:20:24,080 --> 01:20:26,320 Speaker 1: two fifty, and then I bet the two hundred and 1674 01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:29,479 Speaker 1: fifty promo dollars on like a minus ten thousand bet 1675 01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:30,599 Speaker 1: or something like that. 1676 01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:31,960 Speaker 2: You did the thing they wanted you to. 1677 01:20:32,160 --> 01:20:34,040 Speaker 1: No, I did the opposite. It was a minus ten 1678 01:20:34,080 --> 01:20:36,479 Speaker 1: thousand bets. So does that mean that means if I won, 1679 01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:39,920 Speaker 1: I would get no money? But the two hundred fifty 1680 01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:42,080 Speaker 1: turned from a promo into real money, and then I 1681 01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:46,000 Speaker 1: just withdrew it, okay. So a minus ten thousand bet 1682 01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:47,519 Speaker 1: is you have to bet ten thousand dollars to win 1683 01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:51,160 Speaker 1: one hundred, okay, And so the percentage return on that 1684 01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:53,560 Speaker 1: is minuscule. And so I bet the two hundred and 1685 01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:56,120 Speaker 1: fifty dollars promo bet on a. 1686 01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:57,200 Speaker 2: Just to get the money out. 1687 01:20:57,320 --> 01:20:59,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a ninety nine point nine percent chance 1688 01:20:59,200 --> 01:21:01,800 Speaker 1: that I was going it. Yeah, and most people don't 1689 01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:03,800 Speaker 1: do that, and no, because you can't do that, I 1690 01:21:03,840 --> 01:21:04,320 Speaker 1: promise you. 1691 01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:06,720 Speaker 2: And I think and I think the funny thing is 1692 01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,040 Speaker 2: is like this is all data and I'm not just 1693 01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:10,799 Speaker 2: trying to pull it back because it's the tech podcast, 1694 01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:12,840 Speaker 2: but it really is. This is just when you remove 1695 01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,040 Speaker 2: the word sport. This is just like what crypto does. 1696 01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:19,559 Speaker 2: Accept more craven and on television all the time, and 1697 01:21:19,640 --> 01:21:22,439 Speaker 2: it's the same fucking people or at least the same 1698 01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:24,600 Speaker 2: fucking people who do like crypto channels that kind of 1699 01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:26,640 Speaker 2: do some sports shit, or they kind of flirt with 1700 01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:27,720 Speaker 2: the same linguistics. 1701 01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:31,400 Speaker 1: It's just yeah, well disgusting the again, like the people 1702 01:21:31,439 --> 01:21:34,760 Speaker 1: who were doing online poker or the people that did 1703 01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:36,960 Speaker 1: dfs that ended up going into crypto and then they 1704 01:21:37,040 --> 01:21:40,160 Speaker 1: go back into like the we call them pickums. Now 1705 01:21:40,240 --> 01:21:44,560 Speaker 1: this this version of fantasy, which is basically also daily fantasy. 1706 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:46,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's the same. And so they use the 1707 01:21:46,080 --> 01:21:49,040 Speaker 1: same language. Like when when you see kind of the 1708 01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:51,960 Speaker 1: communications between them or the way they even even sometimes 1709 01:21:51,960 --> 01:21:54,599 Speaker 1: when they talk to the public, they use like poker language, 1710 01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:57,439 Speaker 1: and that's the way that they talk about crypto. It's 1711 01:21:57,439 --> 01:21:59,400 Speaker 1: the way they talk about NFTs. That's the way they 1712 01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:01,400 Speaker 1: talk about AI. It's the way they talk about this. 1713 01:22:01,760 --> 01:22:05,040 Speaker 2: It's all just one big scam. So let's wrap up that. 1714 01:22:05,200 --> 01:22:07,519 Speaker 2: Or if we can people find you. You can find 1715 01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:11,040 Speaker 2: me at Wide Left dot Football. That's the newsletter I run. 1716 01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:16,200 Speaker 1: It covers sports, politics and sports culture and sports and 1717 01:22:16,280 --> 01:22:19,320 Speaker 1: all of that. Otherwise on socials, I'm at a reef 1718 01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:22,240 Speaker 1: Sky at social and Blue Sky and a Ressa on 1719 01:22:22,360 --> 01:22:25,120 Speaker 1: NFL on Twitter, Caleb, we can people find you. 1720 01:22:25,479 --> 01:22:28,240 Speaker 3: I've got a podcast called a Western Kabuki. It's kind 1721 01:22:28,240 --> 01:22:30,080 Speaker 3: of an irreverent look at Internet culture. 1722 01:22:30,160 --> 01:22:31,599 Speaker 2: It's wonderful. I've been on multiple times. 1723 01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:32,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredible. 1724 01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:34,280 Speaker 3: Both of you have, and I thank you for that. 1725 01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:38,920 Speaker 3: With a I guess a comedian Juniper and Alex Goldman 1726 01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:40,599 Speaker 3: formally of reply All, where we just kind of talk 1727 01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:44,240 Speaker 3: about people's relationship with with with the Internet. I guess 1728 01:22:44,240 --> 01:22:47,120 Speaker 3: predominantly you can find me there at Western Kabuki. You 1729 01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:49,600 Speaker 3: can find me. I'm no longer on Twitter. I'm on 1730 01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:51,640 Speaker 3: a Blue Sky at bird respector. 1731 01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:54,439 Speaker 2: And you can find me everywhere. You're gonna hear about 1732 01:22:54,479 --> 01:22:56,479 Speaker 2: off of this, Matt, I'm going to re record this 1733 01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,000 Speaker 2: at some point, but I'm not gonna do it now. 1734 01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:00,880 Speaker 2: You're just gonna have to hear gonna go do do 1735 01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:02,920 Speaker 2: Do Do Do Do Do. The whole theme will go on. 1736 01:23:03,000 --> 01:23:05,360 Speaker 2: It'll be amazing. Anyway. I've been at Zitchra and you 1737 01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,600 Speaker 2: can find me a at ed zeitron dot com on 1738 01:23:07,720 --> 01:23:10,160 Speaker 2: Blue Sky. I'm still on Twitter, but I don't give 1739 01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:13,760 Speaker 2: a shit about it. And yeah, if you haven't done this, 1740 01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:15,719 Speaker 2: please go to everyone you know tell him to download 1741 01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:18,120 Speaker 2: the show, tim to download every single goddamn episode and 1742 01:23:18,240 --> 01:23:21,400 Speaker 2: need the downloads. Okay, do this for me. Thank you 1743 01:23:21,439 --> 01:23:23,280 Speaker 2: for listening, and then you're gonna hear me say thank 1744 01:23:23,320 --> 01:23:33,599 Speaker 2: you for listening again. You're gonna be so mad. Thank 1745 01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:35,120 Speaker 2: you for listening to Better Offline. 1746 01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:37,679 Speaker 4: The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song 1747 01:23:37,760 --> 01:23:40,400 Speaker 4: is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music 1748 01:23:40,400 --> 01:23:44,080 Speaker 4: and audio projects at Mattasowski dot com, m A T 1749 01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:48,519 Speaker 4: T O S O W s ki dot com. You 1750 01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:51,080 Speaker 4: can email me at easy at Better Offline dot com, 1751 01:23:51,160 --> 01:23:53,439 Speaker 4: or visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast 1752 01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:56,839 Speaker 4: links and of course my newsletter. I also really recommend 1753 01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:58,800 Speaker 4: you go to chat dot Where's youreed dot at to 1754 01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:01,200 Speaker 4: visit the discord, and go to our slash. 1755 01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:03,920 Speaker 2: Better off Lines to check out I'll Reddit. Thank you 1756 01:24:04,000 --> 01:24:04,960 Speaker 2: so much for listening. 1757 01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:08,479 Speaker 1: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media. For 1758 01:24:08,600 --> 01:24:12,640 Speaker 1: more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, 1759 01:24:12,720 --> 01:24:15,600 Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 1760 01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:17,160 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.