1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Dear listener, I'm going to take you back to twenty 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 1: fifteen and author Jason de Leon is at a migrant 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: shelter in Chiapas, Mexico. He's there for research, and he 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: sees this trip as his goodbye to study in migration 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: because he wants to move in another direction away from 6 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: that subject matter. 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: And one of the nuns says to me, whatever you do, 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: don't go outside, and I said, we why not. She's like, well, 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 2: because outside that's where all the delinquentes are, all the malandros. 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: And so this kind of interests Jason. He's not one 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: to listen to this kind of advice. He's a very 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: curious guy. He's an anthropologist. 13 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: And so I was like, well, I'll just go outside 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: and see what's kind of going on. And as soon 15 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: as I got out there, I run into this group 16 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: of kind of rough looking young men who are hanging out. 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 2: You hear this like Reggaetons blasting giant cloud of marijuana smoke, 18 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: and me as like someone who kind of grew up 19 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: around guys like that and contacts like that. 20 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: Jason is half Mexican and half Filipino, and he's a 21 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: self proclaimed army brat. He grew up in places like 22 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: South Texas and in southern California, and he got good 23 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: at moving to new places, at figuring out how to 24 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: be the new guy. He got good at connecting with strangers. 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 1: So when Jason saw the pot smoke and these rough 26 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: looking young guys outside, he wasn't turned off or scared. 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: He was intrigued. 28 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 2: I of course immediately gravitate towards this group of young 29 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: men who are like, who are you? What do you want? 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 2: I said, Oh, I'm an anthropologist, and they sort of 31 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: don't know what that really is. It's kind of like 32 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: a journalist, but I'm probably more annoying because I stay 33 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,720 Speaker 2: longer and I keep asking the same questions over and 34 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: over and over again. And so they just sat me 35 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 2: down and said, you wrote a book about my fagrants. 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: How come no one ever listens to us, every no 37 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: one ever asks us our stories. They think they all 38 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,640 Speaker 2: think we're bad guys. But it's much more than that. 39 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: And so it was like this moment where I was 40 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: at the new kid in the classroom saying, well, hey, 41 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: I'm new here. I want to really understand you, and 42 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 2: I really want to be here and be fully present. 43 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: And he was fully present for about seven years. Jason 44 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:28,239 Speaker 1: de Leon immersed himself in the world of human smugglers. 45 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 1: He traveled with them, he ate with them, he spent 46 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: weeks documenting their everyday lives, and the end result is 47 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,920 Speaker 1: Jason's book, Soldiers and Kings, Survival and Hope in the 48 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: World of Human Smuggling. The book is the winner of 49 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty four National Book Award in the nonfiction category, 50 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: making it a must read, especially in this current political environment. 51 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: From Futuro Media and PRX, it's Latino Usa. I'm Mariao 52 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: Posa today the surprising lives of the real people behind 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: humans smuggling and how that industry is directly linked to 54 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: immigration and to border policies in the United States. Jason 55 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: de Leon, Welcome to Latino, USA. 56 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 57 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: So you're very quick to say there's a difference between 58 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: somebody who is a human smuggler and somebody who is 59 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: doing human trafficking. They are not the same thing. So 60 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: before we even get into the deep work of your book, 61 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: just kind of clarify that for our listeners. 62 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people are confused by this term, and 63 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: I think rightfully so because we use them so interchangeably. 64 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: Often they're two radically different things. I mean, I think 65 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: people can think about it on the most basic level, 66 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: that you pay someone to smuggle you and someone traffics 67 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: you against your will. Smuggling is a service that is 68 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: provided to people and that they pay for, and they 69 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: are looking for the best quality smuggling that they can 70 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: kind of get. And trafficking is the thing that you 71 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: don't want to happen to you, and it forces you 72 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 2: to do things and to be places that you don't 73 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 2: want to be. Now, you might pay someone to smuggle 74 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: you and feel like everything is going really well, and 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: then they trick you and traffic you instead. 76 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: So in your book, we get to meet somebody by 77 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: the name of Ginoo. Is young, he's Enduran. Like a 78 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: lot of times people think again, human smuggler carrying weapons, 79 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: guns older. So just introduce our listeners to Chino. 80 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: Gino is just this punk kid who with a big 81 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,039 Speaker 2: goofy smile, and he'd had a rough life. Everyone that 82 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: I worked with had grown up and just the most 83 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: extreme poverty had been around gangs and violence, and so 84 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: many of them were trying to escape. And so Chino 85 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,799 Speaker 2: was all those things. He was someone who left home 86 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: as a teenager because there wasn't enough food on the 87 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 2: table to feed him in all of his siblings ended 88 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 2: up on the streets, and he was street smart because 89 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,320 Speaker 2: he had been in gangs. He was trying to get 90 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: away from the gang life because he didn't like having 91 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: to do all the dirty work. Like most of these smugglers, 92 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 2: they had tried to go to the United States, but 93 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: there was nothing there for them. There was no one 94 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,159 Speaker 2: to receive them, and so they were sort of lost there, 95 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: and so they end up in kind of perpetual motion 96 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,600 Speaker 2: on the train track. And he was someone who is 97 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,119 Speaker 2: just trying to do the right things in a world 98 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: where so many decisions had already been made for him. 99 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: His life had already been put on this very difficult path, 100 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 2: and he was just struggling to figure out how to 101 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,720 Speaker 2: get away and how to be happy. 102 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that pipeline as it were, from 103 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: migrant to human smuggler. 104 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 2: Of the guys I worked with were failed migrants. Most 105 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: people who come to the United States as immigrants, they're 106 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: leaving one occupation to take on another, and they have 107 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 2: social skills to kind of be well functioning in any 108 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: kind of normal context. A lot of the smuggles I 109 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: work with had these kind of antisocial tendencies or had 110 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: these kind of violence streets because they had just been 111 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: raised around violence, they had been beaten, and they had 112 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 2: been exposed to these things over and over again. They'd 113 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 2: never really been in a kind of normal circumstance, and 114 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:31,920 Speaker 2: so it was very very hard for them to adjust 115 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: to a kind of normal life. And so for that reason, 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 2: many of them get get into trouble the United States. 117 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: Or maybe they want a future as a baker or 118 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 2: as a lawyer or what they would deem to be 119 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: a noble profession, but they recognize also that they just 120 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: will never be able to do that. But what they 121 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: are good at is taking those skills and violence and 122 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: utilizing them as a form of protection for the people 123 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 2: who are paying them. I mean, a lot of the 124 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 2: guys I worked with would say, I did a bunch 125 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: of dirty work on the street previously, and now I'm 126 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: using that skill, said to protect people, and maybe I 127 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 2: can make up for the bad things that I've done 128 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 2: by being a very good smuggler. These guys are very 129 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 2: very smart, their business savvy. They are highly intelligent in 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: so many ways, but they couldn't sit down behind a 131 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: desk for a nine to five. It's just not kind 132 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: of in them. 133 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 1: But they're living in a world that's very, very dangerous, 134 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: and a lot of people are like, well, why don't 135 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: you just leave, you know, take that business acumen and 136 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: do something else. How difficult is it to basically just 137 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: say Okay, I'm going to stop doing this and do 138 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: something else. 139 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: In the book, there are some guys who are able 140 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: to escape and find some level of normalcy. And those 141 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 2: that are able to do that, to me, it felt 142 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: like they were the ones who were able to get 143 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: away in their early twenties. The guys who are doing 144 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: it into their thirties, which is pretty old by those standards, 145 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: they get to a point where I think it's really 146 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: really difficult, if not impossible, for them to do anything else. 147 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a moment in the book with the 148 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: person that I call Kingston, they. 149 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: Called Meg, they called me old g in York, right, 150 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: they know me for a time book for Survive right, 151 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: who you know? 152 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 2: He's in his mid thirties, he's been in and out 153 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: of out of prison, was orphaned at nine, had just 154 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 2: been around on the most intense levels of violence and abuse, physical, sexual, emotional. 155 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: And there was a point where he was like, I'm 156 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,559 Speaker 2: going to start a taco truck and he's he's trying 157 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 2: to like run a normal business, but his whole way 158 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: of being is not normal. I mean, it's intimidating. The 159 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: language that he is accustomed to using. These are not 160 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: things that normal people I mean in air quotes want 161 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 2: to be around. And so it became clear that that 162 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 2: he had these aspirations that were never going to be 163 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 2: going to be realized. You know, there's not a lot 164 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: of opportunities for thirty five year old smuggler. You know, 165 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 2: it's hard to find a new job after that that 166 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,680 Speaker 2: doesn't directly revolve around those types of activities. 167 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: When we come back, Jason de Leon talks to us 168 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: about the direct link between US immigration policies and the 169 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: booming business of humans smuggling. Stay with us, Yes, Hey, 170 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,959 Speaker 1: we're back with the rest of my conversation with author 171 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: and anthropologist Jason de Leon. In one of your conversations, 172 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: Kingston tells you that he actually loved Trump because someone 173 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: like Trump is actually good for business because it means 174 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,439 Speaker 1: that they can charge even more. Am I right, talk 175 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: a little bit about how when you say, oh, we're 176 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: going to make it more difficult and it actually ends 177 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: up for the fuman smugglers being something that they can 178 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: benefit from. 179 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think people fail to realize that 180 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: human smuggling is the outcome of border policies, changes in 181 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 2: border security, the drive to have undocumented labor in the 182 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: United States. Smuggling is responding to those things. And so 183 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: someone like Kingston, all these guys, they know that human 184 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: mobility is unstoppable, that there is nothing you can do 185 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: to stop people who are desperate to find some new 186 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 2: and better place. And so, yeah, they love Trump because 187 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 2: it's like, oh man, he's saying all this crazy stuff 188 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: about how he's going to build a fifty foot wall 189 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,079 Speaker 2: and all this kind of stuff, and they know that 190 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: most of it is talk and that at the end 191 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 2: of the day, there is nothing that they can really 192 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 2: do that's going to stop this movement. People need to 193 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 2: realize that we've been killing migrants to the US Mexico 194 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: border for decades through a policy called prevention through the 195 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 2: time currents, and the thinking was that if enough migrants died, 196 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 2: word of mouth would spread and people would go, well, 197 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 2: it's obviously too dangerous. We shouldn't try to cross the 198 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: desert or cross this river, and let's just stop coming. 199 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 2: People now know it's dangerous, they know people are dying, 200 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: They probably know people who have died, and yet they're 201 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 2: still coming. So even death itself cannot deter these people. 202 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: So migrants know that, the smugglers know that and are 203 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 2: able to capitalize on that. And the people who suffer 204 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: are the migrants who now have to risk their lives 205 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: but are willing to do it and are going to 206 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: pay more money out of pocket to do it. 207 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: You actually, in your introduction, actually you say, given the 208 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: rate that global inequity is growing, coupled with rising sea levels, 209 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: increased trout and the appearance of environmental monsters like super hurricanes, 210 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: you don't need to be a soothsayer to predict that 211 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: things are about to get a lot worse for all 212 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: of humanity. But at the end of that paragraph you say, 213 00:11:55,679 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: because ultimately, the human spirit cannot be broken, and so 214 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: it's this human spirit that is actually saying I gotta 215 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: get someplace. 216 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we love resiliency. We love people who like 217 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: they really fought hard and they were determined, and they 218 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 2: pulled themselves up from their bootstraps, and they did everything 219 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: they could to improve their circumstances. As Americans, we love 220 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: that narrative when the person who is doing those things 221 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 2: is white, but we don't understand it or we don't 222 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 2: like it when other people are doing it. And I 223 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 2: think that part of this is the xenophobia. Part of 224 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: this is like, is this idea that these people are 225 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 2: somehow different than us. I think we need to see 226 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 2: them as human beings and not as immigrants, not as 227 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: border crossers, not as Latinos. We need to see them 228 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,080 Speaker 2: as people just like us who have the same hopes 229 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: and dreams and aspirations, and then to kind of understand 230 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 2: where they're coming from and put ourselves into their shoes. 231 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: But I want the reader to look at these these 232 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: people's stories and perhaps see some parts of themselves in 233 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: that so that we can begin to I hope, create 234 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: some empathy and some understanding that the human condition is universal. 235 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: And also, when we think about human smugglers, people think 236 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: a lot of money. So let's talk a little bit 237 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: about that business side of it before we move on. 238 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 1: How has the money side of it changed and how 239 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: have the roots changed it? 240 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 2: Used to be that if you were from Central America, 241 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 2: you could just cross Mexico in a matter of weeks 242 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 2: or days. You know, you take some buses, you fly, 243 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 2: get to the US Mexican border, pay someone three thousand 244 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: dollars to get you to North Carolina. And now those 245 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: Central Americans, because of changes in US backed immigration policies 246 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 2: in Mexico, it's become incredibly challenging for people to get 247 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 2: across the length of Mexico now. I mean it might 248 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,679 Speaker 2: cost you ten thousand dollars to get from Honduras to Sonoda. 249 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 2: You're paying quotas now, so you have to pay Cartel's 250 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: head taxes in each one of these different geographic nodes. 251 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 2: And every time one route closes down or ships and 252 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 2: starts in a new place, some new enterprising individual or 253 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: group of people are there and they go, you know what, 254 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 2: people are about to come through here, and we can 255 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 2: start charging them money. And so as security ramps up 256 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: and these routes change, it just gets more and more expensive. 257 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: It can cost you fifteen sixteen thousand dollars to go 258 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 2: from Central America to New York City, and most people 259 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: don't begin a trip with that. They might leave home 260 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night because they're being threatened 261 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: by gangs, and so they've got one thousand dollars on them. 262 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: That money will go to probably a quota or some 263 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: bribes just to get from Guatemala into southern Mexico and 264 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: to pay some smuggler to get you, maybe to bet 265 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 2: a grouse or a little bit farther. And then after 266 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: that you wait, you work under the table in Mexico. 267 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: You have family members wire you a little bit of money, 268 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: and you start paying kind of piecemeal to get to 269 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 2: where you're going. But you might spend eight thousand dollars 270 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: just to get to the US Mexico border. And then 271 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 2: now you get to pay another five or six thousand 272 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: to go into the desert and try your luck there. 273 00:14:55,840 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: And meanwhile our tax dollars right being used to actually 274 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: go even further south. You know, here on Latino USA, 275 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: we've done a series called The Moving Border to just 276 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: kind of show it used to be just the US 277 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: Mexico border. It's actually the border is moving south and 278 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: it's moving further north. But can you tell us, Jason, 279 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: how far south has the United States gone in Central 280 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: America and South America to essentially try to prevent people 281 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: from reaching the country even before they step foot outside 282 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: of their home lands. 283 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: It's crazy, you know. In the beginning stages of this work, 284 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 2: I had developed some working relationships with people at Customs 285 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: and Border Protection who opened several doors for me to 286 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: be able to interview agents and to get tours of 287 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 2: different facilities along the US Mexico border. And part of 288 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: that work that I was doing involved traveling to Honduras 289 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: to meet up with a US backed group of special 290 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 2: Hondurant agents that were basically being trained and supported by 291 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 2: the US Border Patrol to stop Hondurance from leaving their 292 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 2: own country. The acronym is GOET and I said, Okay, 293 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 2: what are they doing. Well, oh, they're stopping unaccompanied miners 294 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: and single parents from Honduras with kids from leaving that 295 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 2: country and then anybody else that's coming along the way. 296 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: And I just thought to myself, that's insane. So you're 297 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: training a special force in Honduras to police its own citizens. 298 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 2: So I went down there and I interviewed these guys 299 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 2: and they were telling me it's like, yeah, we said, 300 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: it's illegal if you are a minor to leave the country, 301 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 2: and it's also illegal for you to leave the country 302 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: if you are a single parent without a signed letter 303 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: from a judge or your spouse giving approval to take 304 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 2: a child with you. And so that was the law 305 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 2: that they were using. And these guys were saying to 306 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 2: me like, look, we got all this great equipment. You know, 307 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: I've been to the US to training camps, and you 308 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: guys are really helping us to stop these folks from leaving. 309 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: And I one of the things that really stuck with 310 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 2: me was when I asked these guys, I said, look, 311 00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: you know, these kids are leaving their neighborhood because He's 312 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: gang have marked them as people that they are going 313 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 2: to kill because they're not going along with the business 314 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: that the gang wants them to do. And so they 315 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 2: are literally running for their lives so that they don't 316 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: get killed. And you're telling me that you're working to 317 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,160 Speaker 2: catch them and send them back to those communities where 318 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: they will risk death. And these guys all said, yeah, 319 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're doing. But the law is the law, 320 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: and your government is helping us to do this and 321 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 2: telling us that this is an important thing that we 322 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 2: need to be involved in. And I feel for them, 323 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 2: but Also, I'm just kind of doing my job, and 324 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: you know, in the United States is here to help 325 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 2: us do that. That was Honduras ten years ago, and 326 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: it's now, I mean, we're seeing this all across the 327 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: Western hemisphere. 328 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: So I remember, you know, at the very beginning of 329 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: your book, you talk about feeling guilt, right, the guilt 330 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: that you feel because even though we're covering this story, right, 331 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: and we're maybe in a dangerous way or an uncomfortable 332 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:08,120 Speaker 1: sleeping outside, we know that ultimately we're going to go home, right, 333 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,719 Speaker 1: And so I'm thinking a little bit about how you've 334 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: dealt with your own mental health and how you prepare 335 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: yourself for this kind of work. 336 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 2: This book really messed me up, you know, I went 337 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: into but it messed me up, and then it also 338 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: I think it's really made me a better person in 339 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 2: so many ways. The kind of end of my first 340 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: book really focused on the story of this fifteen year 341 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,320 Speaker 2: old kid from Ecuador named Jose Maria Takuti who disappeared 342 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: in the snow desert, and I spent a lot of 343 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 2: time with his family, you know, interviewing his parents and 344 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: just being kind of, you know, adjacent to the most 345 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: profound grief that I could ever imagine one experiencing the 346 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 2: loss of a child and you don't even know where 347 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 2: they are, what has happened to them. And I used 348 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: to think to myself, well, I've got a pretty thick skin, 349 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 2: and you know, I sort of grew up in difficult 350 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: circumstances and so I'm kind of built for this. And 351 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 2: I went into the smuggling project kind of thinking the 352 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: same thing. And you know, early on in the field work, 353 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 2: my friend Roberto was murdered and that sent me into 354 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: this total tail spin emotionally, and you know, I was like, 355 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 2: why am I even here anymore? This like it's just 356 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: even worth it, It's just killing me. And I was 357 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 2: ready to walk away from pretty much everything. And you know, 358 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: I had promised him I was going to try to 359 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 2: tell his story. So I kind of put myself back 360 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 2: together and then kind of dived into two smuggling, And 361 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 2: you know, for the next six or seven years after that, 362 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: I was just around all these guys, getting to know 363 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: them and just being exposed to a lot of very 364 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 2: difficult and traumatic things. And during the course of the work, 365 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: people kept asking me, how can you do this work? 366 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 2: How can you be hanging out with these like really 367 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: violent guys, people who were doing all this kind of 368 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: self destructive kind of behavior. And it wasn't you know 369 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 2: until the very end of the project, and I said, 370 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: I started writing the stuff up. I realized, like, there's 371 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: a kinship that I share with these guys. And I 372 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: was a very self destructive young person. So I saw 373 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: it in these guys and the like the intense kind 374 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 2: of self harm. And everyone that I worked with that 375 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 2: I wrote about had been around violence, had survived sexual abuse, 376 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 2: and I had to come to grips with and kind 377 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 2: of come to a place of accepting that I had 378 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 2: been the survivor of childhood sexual abuse, that many of 379 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 2: my self destructive behaviors had been the result of that. 380 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: And I was forty something years old when I had 381 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 2: been in full blown denial about so many of these things. 382 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: And it sent me back to therapy after over a 383 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: twenty year kind of break, and I was really losing 384 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 2: it and it was just disrupting. It was destroying, I 385 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: think my relationship with my family. It put me in 386 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 2: such a dark place. And yet these guys that I 387 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 2: was writing about, and it was mostly men that I 388 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,880 Speaker 2: was writing about, were helping me also to find this 389 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,120 Speaker 2: hope and this you know, I hate the word resilience, 390 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: but these guys really were just trying to be good 391 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: people despite all the things that had happened to them, 392 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 2: and writing this book, going back to therapy, admitting to 393 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 2: myself these things that had happened that really are part 394 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 2: of my identity as a survivor of these things. I 395 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: had been broken in half by this whole process, and 396 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 2: then through the writing and through the working with these guys, 397 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 2: they put me back together. And I am the happiest 398 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,199 Speaker 2: I've ever been in my entire life, the happiest, I'm 399 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 2: the healthiest. You know, I don't live with shame about 400 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: this stuff. But I did not expect a book about 401 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 2: smugglers and about all this violence to teach me about 402 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: empathy and about hope. And I thought like my gift 403 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: to them was I could try to tell their story 404 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: and for me, like Roberto, he gets to come alive 405 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: again at the end of this book, which for me 406 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 2: was a very important moment in the writing process. But 407 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: then the gift that gave to me, I think is 408 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: making me the better person and the happier person that 409 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: I am today. 410 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: So I know, this is a really big question to 411 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: end on. I mean, do you think there's a chance 412 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 1: that there could be a world without human smuggling? Should 413 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: we imagine that in order to try to get there 414 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: or should we just accept that no human smuggling is 415 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: going to be here forever? 416 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 2: You know, I think I'm always an optimist. I have 417 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: to be. I live with two very small people in 418 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 2: my household who every morning when I get up, I 419 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 2: have to face them at the breakfast table. I have 420 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 2: to talk to them about the world, and we say, 421 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: all we can do today is make the world a 422 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: little bit better than it was yesterday. Maybe all we 423 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 2: can do is try to be kind and focus our 424 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: lives around empathy. And you know, I think that we 425 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: are at a breaking point in this country where many 426 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 2: things have been hiding under the surface for some some 427 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: people just have refused to see that this is how 428 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 2: we are. I mean, I woke up the day after 429 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 2: the election and I said, I can't believe this is 430 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 2: going on. How could this happen? And then I had 431 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: to remind myself, Oh, remember the time you wrote a 432 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: book about how the federal government has been killing people 433 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 2: on a daily basis at the US Mexico border with policies, 434 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: thousands of people have died and disappeared. Remember that. And 435 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: I and you know, I've had to come around to 436 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 2: this point where there are the things that I have 437 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 2: been taught about this country, that have been doctrinated to 438 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: believe that this is a country of this is about 439 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: a meritocracy and we are all equal. And that doesn't 440 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 2: always drive with the experiences that I've had as a 441 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: person of color. That does not drive with what I 442 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 2: know about the history of this country or what I 443 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 2: seem with my own eyes. And so let's recognize what 444 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: has happened and what is happening, and what has always 445 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: been going on, and then let's decide what is the 446 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:57,919 Speaker 2: future that we want. And I think for me, the 447 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 2: future that I want is one where we can find empathy, 448 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: where we can have understanding that we don't live in 449 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,560 Speaker 2: a society, where we can keep our problems out with 450 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 2: the border wall or with these hardline immigration policies. And 451 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: I do believe that at the end of the day, 452 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,719 Speaker 2: that most people have empathy in their heart. And so 453 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 2: I'm hopeful and I think that we will get to 454 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: a point where we're not going to need human smuggling anymore. 455 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: We're not going to need border walls where we're going 456 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: to be able to live in a world where people 457 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: can move freely and feel supported and feel respected. And 458 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 2: maybe that's just me being a sappy optimist, but that's 459 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 2: who I am right now. 460 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: Jason de Leon, thank you so much for speaking with 461 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 1: us on lat You Know USA. 462 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: Madie, thank you so much. 463 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: That was anthropologist and author Jason de Leon. His latest 464 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: book is Soldiers and Kings, Survival and Hope in the 465 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: World of Human Smuggling. 466 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: This episode was. 467 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: Produced by Renaldo Leanos Junior. It was edited by Andrea 468 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: Lopez Cruzado, and it was mixed by Julia Caruso. The 469 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: Latino USA team also includes Roxanna Guire, Felicia do Minuez, 470 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: Fernando Charvari, Jessica Ellis, Victori Estrada, Dominique, Ineestrosa, Stephanie Lebau, 471 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: Luis Luna Marta Martinez, JJ Crubin, Tasa Sandoval, Nour Saudi, 472 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,719 Speaker 1: and Nancy Trujillo, Benille Ramirez, Maria Garcia, Marlon Bishop and 473 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: myself are co executive producers and I'm your host. Marino 474 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: Rossa joins again on our next episode Dear listener. In 475 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: the meantime, I'll see you on all of our social 476 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: media and us always with parasimpres. 477 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 2: Latino USA is made possible in part by California Endowment, 478 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 2: building a strong state by improving the health of all Californians. 479 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 2: The Heising Simons Foundation unlocking knowledge, opportunity and possibilities more 480 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 2: at hsfoundation dot org and the Ford Foundation, working with 481 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide.