Speaker 1: Also media.
Speaker 2: Buying. The Bastards stop the podcast you're listening to right
Speaker 2: right now, worst people in all of history. We tell
Speaker 2: you all about them, and you know, this has been
Speaker 2: a rough year for a lot of us. Here behind
Speaker 2: the Bastards, we've talked about a lot of pedophiles, and
Speaker 2: I'm tired of talking about pedophiles. There are pedophiles in
Speaker 2: this episode, but they're not the primary focus of the episode.
Speaker 2: Jamie Loftus, how are you doing the day? I'm sorry for.
Speaker 3: Work, and today we're talking to the biggest one of
Speaker 3: them all, and we the White Well.
Speaker 2: I was like, I wanted to go right into the title,
Speaker 2: but then I hadn't introduced you, and I was like,
Speaker 2: I should introduce Jamie before the title. But I also
Speaker 2: party was like, should I introduce the title and then
Speaker 2: bring in Jamie. I don't know I did it the
Speaker 2: wrong way.
Speaker 4: I'm sure about the one complaint at the start here, Robert,
Speaker 4: why are you not wearing a hat?
Speaker 2: I don't like cats.
Speaker 3: It's true, where's your statement hat?
Speaker 2: So I don't have a statement hat? But Jamie, you
Speaker 2: are wearing a Theorrhose hat right now?
Speaker 3: Which am a well worn one?
Speaker 2: A well worn one around the clock. Yes, homes sweat
Speaker 2: through that thing she was waiting to hear she just
Speaker 2: died it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I actually contributed to her bail fund and she
Speaker 3: mailed this to me iconic.
Speaker 4: I'm wearing a hat that fit little very appropriate for
Speaker 4: today's episode.
Speaker 3: It's this Disappointment Awaits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're both going to get what you want
Speaker 2: today because we are Jamie talking about a Silicon Valley
Speaker 2: cult led by a female grifter. And best of all,
Speaker 2: it's an orgasm cult. It's an orgasm cult. Everybody beautiful.
Speaker 3: And then the crowd bursts into a clause. They're like,
Speaker 3: you muscled through six weeks of pedophile to get to
Speaker 3: the orgasm cult.
Speaker 2: We did it, folk, Yeah, yeah, thank god. It's like
Speaker 2: washing your face in a stream only Actually, this is
Speaker 2: very abusive and a lot of people get hurt.
Speaker 4: Oh it is behind buddy Disappointment Awaits.
Speaker 2: But we get to laugh at like Silicon Valley's starter
Speaker 2: fucking shit getting mixed in with like traditional cult abuse techniques.
Speaker 2: It's very fun, and we love.
Speaker 3: To see women in a leadership role.
Speaker 2: Exactly a woman who is who is really really hurting
Speaker 2: and taking advantage of a lot of men in a
Speaker 2: way that does even the scales on this show somewhat
Speaker 2: like if You're just interesting. It starts the process after
Speaker 2: she goes through a lot of guys after.
Speaker 3: Specter and Savel.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Yeah, I mean Sable abuses a lot of
Speaker 2: boys too, Sophie.
Speaker 3: That's fair.
Speaker 4: But I want to hear about a woman.
Speaker 2: Let's hear it. Yes, so we're going to Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna guess you. There's a good chance you haven't heard
Speaker 2: her name. She's Nicole to done like like d A
Speaker 2: E D O N E.
Speaker 4: How many times is the word clatorus in the script?
Speaker 3: I see it in the lot?
Speaker 2: I see it.
Speaker 3: Can we get a control off on this?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just got really excited.
Speaker 2: I avoided it, but I used a couple of synonyms.
Speaker 2: So here's the thing.
Speaker 4: Well times, how many times is vagina in the script?
Speaker 3: Only six? Only?
Speaker 2: The cult is based around this. Lady comes up with
Speaker 2: a It has an idea that like, if you get
Speaker 2: a bunch of women in a room and you have
Speaker 2: a partner masturbate them in a room, sometimes with hundreds
Speaker 2: of people watching, it creates this sort of like magical
Speaker 2: energy effect that has a bunch of health benefits.
Speaker 3: It's like an operating theater approach to Cummings.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what they do. That's exactly the heart of
Speaker 2: the grift, Jamie.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, listening.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be really fun. So what's also really fun
Speaker 2: about this is that this practice getting all these people
Speaker 2: in a room. I mean sometimes it was one person
Speaker 2: at a time, but masturbating people in public totally detached
Speaker 2: from sex. Right. Number one, it is only vaginas and
Speaker 2: clatorus is being like manipulated, right, Like, that's the This
Speaker 2: is not like a multi organ kind of deal. And
Speaker 2: number two, this is not supposed to be erotic by
Speaker 2: the end of it. By like the Silicon Valley stage
Speaker 2: of the grift, we're treating this like you're taking like
Speaker 2: a bulletproof coffee. And by the way, the bulletproof coffee
Speaker 2: guys endorsed this business. So so many beautiful crossovers.
Speaker 3: Ooh oh god. Yeah, anytime you have a Silicon Valley grift,
Speaker 3: you have some incredible side players. Always a great series
Speaker 3: of Tim Farris shows up.
Speaker 2: It's awesome. Really Yeah, we get Tim Ferris. We don't
Speaker 2: get a Navy seal. I was bummed about that, Jamie.
Speaker 2: I was hoping one of those navy seals who sells
Speaker 2: like energy bars would be in this picture, but no,
Speaker 2: tragically not.
Speaker 3: Oh this is okay, So the it's sex, but it's
Speaker 3: not sex. So it's moorse than sex.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's way worse than sex, and it's not
Speaker 2: supposed to be sexy. By the end, this does start
Speaker 2: with a bunch of dudes in like the seventies, who
Speaker 2: it very much is about sex for. But before we
Speaker 2: get to the dudes in the seventies, we're gonna have
Speaker 2: to have a little talk because it's very relevant about
Speaker 2: the patterns that these this group that's supposed to be
Speaker 2: kind of like breaking the mold and making this like
Speaker 2: women centric and not abusive fall into. We're gonna have
Speaker 2: to talk about the history of the female orgasm in
Speaker 2: popular awareness and medical conception. Right, Okay, there was.
Speaker 3: A part of me that thought you were going to say,
Speaker 3: we have to talk about the clittorus. Where is it?
Speaker 3: How do I find it? Is it just all on
Speaker 3: the same page.
Speaker 2: It's like a laser point.
Speaker 3: It's right, thing, just mining, So let's talk about it, ladies.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think my sex, said was so bad growing
Speaker 2: up in Texas. I'm fairly certain I learned about the
Speaker 2: clitterists from the South Park movie. I think that was
Speaker 2: my first encounter with it when I was like nine
Speaker 2: or ten something like that.
Speaker 4: I said, I took it over summer school, and they
Speaker 4: just showed us multiple horrific birthing scenes.
Speaker 2: Oh great, Yeah, we did see one of those, just
Speaker 2: not one, not two, maybe four.
Speaker 3: God, well, at least they put in the hours. I didn't.
Speaker 3: I saw one birth video, but no, I didn't even
Speaker 3: get like period information. And it was like a running
Speaker 3: joke in my town. How the fact that they did
Speaker 3: not invest in sex ed But uh, I went to
Speaker 3: this massive high school where there was a daycare at
Speaker 3: the high school, and you just have to think one perhaps,
Speaker 3: but some things my connected.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember. I don't think they even told us
Speaker 2: orgasms at all existed. They told us that, like, you know,
Speaker 2: how the active intercourse happens physically and that it feels good.
Speaker 2: And I don't even think I think they're supposed to
Speaker 2: tell us about like semen. But I think the gym,
Speaker 2: the coach that was giving the lesson was way too awkward,
Speaker 2: so he just kind of breezed right past it. We
Speaker 2: didn't hear anything about that.
Speaker 3: It's a part of the great American tradition to be
Speaker 3: full of visceral fear and think you're dying the first
Speaker 3: time you come.
Speaker 2: It's important, Yes, it's really crucial stuff. So for as
Speaker 2: long as there have been people, we've understood that sex
Speaker 2: at least could potentially be very enjoyable for both participants,
Speaker 2: right like that, people have been aware that it can
Speaker 2: be fun, even if they've hated the idea of that.
Speaker 2: But there's also been this understanding that people with penises
Speaker 2: and people with vagina's experienced these pleasures somewhat differently at first.
Speaker 2: So far as I can tell, I don't think there
Speaker 2: was a lot of controversy about this idea. In ancient
Speaker 2: Greek mythology, Hera and Zeus are said to have argued
Speaker 2: over whether or not men enjoyed sex more than women,
Speaker 2: and Zeus, who is a prolific rapist, argue that women
Speaker 2: seem to take more pleasure in the act, and Haar
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, I'm not surprised you said that, But
Speaker 2: then she was like, obviously, guys enjoy it more. That's
Speaker 2: why you're doing all the shit you're doing. Zeus, the
Speaker 2: wide stage, Tyresius was brought in to give like an
Speaker 2: answer to kind of adjudicate this, and he was like,
Speaker 2: women feel nine or ten times as much pleasure as men.
Speaker 2: So he agreed with Zeus, and Harah did some really
Speaker 2: mean things to him. She did not like that.
Speaker 4: Not to be honest, I didn't know zeus slander was
Speaker 4: on the calendar for today.
Speaker 2: Zeus Slander's always.
Speaker 3: Slander is absolutely always on the calendar, and we do
Speaker 3: talk about him like he is a guy that was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was just a dude, yeah, like we met
Speaker 2: him at a cinemon.
Speaker 4: My only compliment to Zeus is that story about when
Speaker 4: Zeus birthed somebody from his forehead, and that's how I
Speaker 4: think I got Anderson.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh there you go.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I like the one where he turns into like a
Speaker 2: swan to have sex with a swan because he just
Speaker 2: sees a swan that's so hot. But he's like, I
Speaker 2: can't do this as a guy, like I gotta be
Speaker 2: a swan.
Speaker 4: First of all, a swan's not nice. Second of all,
Speaker 4: no beautiful.
Speaker 2: M sure that's what Zeus said. Because the United States
Speaker 2: is a culture that was heavily influenced by Puritanism and
Speaker 2: generations in which women were shamed and ostracized for even
Speaker 2: sexual contact that they had no choice in. It's easy
Speaker 2: to see that like, oh, the Greeks were like way
Speaker 2: more sex positive than like their Western descendants were thousands
Speaker 2: of years later, right that, like, well, that seems like
Speaker 2: at least a more sex positive view, even though that's
Speaker 2: still kind of messed up, and there are some ways
Speaker 2: in which that's true. But Assistant professor of Classics an
Speaker 2: editor for the journal idol On Tara Mulder makes an
Speaker 2: important point about what this myth was really saying, and
Speaker 2: this is relevant to everything that winds up happening in
Speaker 2: the Silicon Valley days of this fucking sex cult. If
Speaker 2: the ancient Greeks were supposed to take a message or
Speaker 2: learn a lesson from this myth, it was that women
Speaker 2: were the lucky ones when it came to sex. Women
Speaker 2: could be assumed to always want sex, and when they
Speaker 2: got it, to enjoy it substantially more than men, giving
Speaker 2: rise to the need for men to control sexual interactions.
Speaker 2: Sexuality of women, the companion to the ancient Greek and
Speaker 2: Roman idea that women enjoy sex more than men, is
Speaker 2: the ancient idea that women are sexually ravenous and insatiable,
Speaker 2: their sexual appetites couldn't be trusted and had to be
Speaker 2: rained in by male guardians. So that's going to actually
Speaker 2: be relevant to every every modern day orgasm cold, all
Speaker 2: of which are again wrapped in like this is all
Speaker 2: about the women, and all of us are going to
Speaker 2: wind up recreating that like ancient Greek and Roman shit
Speaker 2: like it's crazy, how it's nothing shanges.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, so we already have this is maybe a
Speaker 3: record for being Robert of like, we can't talk about
Speaker 3: this before we talk about ancient Greek mythology, and yeah,
Speaker 3: we gotta. I fully believe it. I fully believe it.
Speaker 3: So is this I'm guessing this is like, oh, this
Speaker 3: is actually about like women and women's pleasure yep. And
Speaker 3: women are obsessed with being controlled and need to be
Speaker 3: controlled and that's actually hot and liberating.
Speaker 2: It's it's a little more complicated and honestly dumb than that, Jamie,
Speaker 2: But I don't want to spoil how dumb it is.
Speaker 3: A sex cult is going to be better. This is
Speaker 3: this is instructive.
Speaker 2: This is critical to understand before you start a sex cult.
Speaker 2: And there's a couple more things that we need to
Speaker 2: understand before we get into this, because there's a lot
Speaker 2: of patterns the Greeks setup that we just never get
Speaker 2: free of here in the West, at least. So the
Speaker 2: sage Ovid advised his readers that women had a nasty
Speaker 2: tendency to say no when they meant yes. Like he's
Speaker 2: kind of the first guy in the Western canon to
Speaker 2: be like a no, it's not a no, bra Like
Speaker 2: that's that's Ovid, right, And this is endemic all over
Speaker 2: ancient culture, just as it is like today. Hippocrates, the
Speaker 2: father of Western medicine, weighed in on the pleasure debate
Speaker 2: and essentially agreed with Tyresius, and through his descendants, medieval
Speaker 2: Europe inherited the belief that female pleasure aided in conception.
Speaker 2: The term orgasm didn't exist, but they knew what one was,
Speaker 2: and they thought it made pregnancy more likely. That like,
Speaker 2: if she enjoys it, you're likely to conceive a child.
Speaker 2: That was like the widespread understanding in medieval Europe, which
Speaker 2: breaks a pretty important misconcent about medieval life, right that,
Speaker 2: like they were frightened and ignorant of sex because they
Speaker 2: weren't nearly as ignorant as a lot of people who
Speaker 2: would come later. For one thing, everyone lives in the
Speaker 2: same room, see, like know where kids come from, right,
Speaker 2: Like there's no missing that.
Speaker 3: You see them being created.
Speaker 2: Con Yeah, you're you're aware of how things work. There's
Speaker 2: no like telling it. There's no getting kids to like
Speaker 2: think that sex is not normal, like if you're growing
Speaker 2: up in that environment. Several Catholic scholars, in fact discussed
Speaker 2: prostitution positively. There was an idea around like Catholic theology
Speaker 2: in this time that like you kind of need prostitutes
Speaker 2: for society to work, that if they don't exist, things
Speaker 2: go crazy. Like that was like a fairly widespread idea
Speaker 2: among some circles. And there were even monks and nuns
Speaker 2: who published work that was explicitly about sex. One example
Speaker 2: was Constantine the African, a twelfth century figure who wrote
Speaker 2: a book about sex, de Koitu on Sexual Intercourse. He
Speaker 2: was actually translating the work of Muslim scholars, is often
Speaker 2: the case with stuff like this. It been Al Jazzer,
Speaker 2: but he filed that guy's name off of the paper
Speaker 2: for obvious reasons. He was just like, I'm just gonna
Speaker 2: cut this red off. Just put this out on her.
Speaker 2: My name's my fuck book.
Speaker 3: Don't worry about it.
Speaker 2: This is my book about sex. Don't think about it.
Speaker 2: Per a blog called Constantinus Africanus by Monica H. Green,
Speaker 2: It opens very clearly stating that sexual function was established
Speaker 2: by the creator himself to ensure the propagation of all species,
Speaker 2: For if animals disliked intercourse, all the species of animals
Speaker 2: would certainly have perished. Pretty hard to argue with. Many
Speaker 2: of the same frank attitudes towards sexuality can be found
Speaker 2: in others of Constantine's works. In fact, we find in
Speaker 2: later manuscripts of the Constantinian Corpus a short work on
Speaker 2: the potential harms and benefits of sexual intercourse, called again
Speaker 2: the Liber Minor de Quoitu the Little Book of Intercourse.
Speaker 2: That's that's all kind of fun, right, that's all interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, if you were so, like what Pad goes
Speaker 3: way back, everyone's always been writing there for you, little thing.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah. Ever specially think Avid is like spouting the game.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah, the first pick up artist.
Speaker 3: He's like, no, no, they love it, dude, they love it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, huge fans, So Jazzer wrote about sex, but he
Speaker 2: wrote about it purely from the male standpoint, and to
Speaker 2: the extent that Constantine was interested in gathering research about
Speaker 2: sexual stealing, research about sexual pleasure. It was only stuff
Speaker 2: from the male perspective. But they weren't the only intellectuals
Speaker 2: weighing in on the subject. At the same time, you're
Speaker 2: gonna love this this lady, both of you are. She's awesome.
Speaker 2: One of my sources for these episodes is the History
Speaker 2: of Women medium page by Mary Devrai, and she wrote
Speaker 2: a really good article on a contemporary of Constantine's, a
Speaker 2: twelfth century Benedictine nun named Hildegard of Bingen.
Speaker 4: I'm I'm like, she's so my buzzwords today. She's just
Speaker 4: is the non fucking cool.
Speaker 2: She's she's a horny nune. But more than that, she's
Speaker 2: every now and then. You like read about someone in
Speaker 2: history and they're from long enough to good that you
Speaker 2: don't get a ton of granular detail, but you can
Speaker 2: just tell like, oh, you were smart as fuck, like
Speaker 2: you were a genius. And that's Kilda Guard. So she
Speaker 2: she comes into life, she's born into a rich family,
Speaker 2: but she had that doesn't mean she has any choice
Speaker 2: or agency in her life. It actually means the opposite, right,
Speaker 2: because during this time, her family's very religious, and at
Speaker 2: this period of time, if you're super religious, it's normal
Speaker 2: to tie the tenth of what you have to the church.
Speaker 2: And that's not just money. In this age, that means like,
Speaker 2: if you have ten kids, you're given one of them
Speaker 2: to the priesthood or to be a monk, or to
Speaker 2: be a nun.
Speaker 3: Right like normal that is extended to flesh for.
Speaker 2: The very religious. Right. I'm not gonna say every family's
Speaker 2: doing that, but a number of them are. That's why
Speaker 2: there's so many people in the church. Right she can
Speaker 2: get to ten, Yeah, we get the ten, we'll give
Speaker 2: one to God. And her parents were also may have
Speaker 2: been motivated. She started seeing visions at age three, so
Speaker 2: that may have been part of why they're like, well,
Speaker 2: she's probably be in the church. I don't know if
Speaker 2: I want to deal with this. So I don't know
Speaker 2: what was going on there, and I actually don't know.
Speaker 2: Part of me wonders was she seeing visions or did
Speaker 2: she realize that if she had visions and talked about them,
Speaker 2: she could manipulate her circumstances to improve them. And I
Speaker 2: kind of think that may have been what's going on,
Speaker 2: because the visions are always very conveniently articulated to get
Speaker 2: her what she wants. My interpretation of her story is
Speaker 2: that the latter is more likely. But yeah, I'm an
Speaker 2: atheist in a scallawagon. I like to see like a
Speaker 2: clever underdog find a way to win in a religion
Speaker 2: that's stacked against them. Like, I think that's fun.
Speaker 3: That feels like, so you know, that's like the history
Speaker 3: of women in religion is like, oh, actually a God
Speaker 3: told me so you actually it's like the only It's
Speaker 3: like when I am trying to get someone to listen
Speaker 3: to me, and I just respond and like from a
Speaker 3: separate email and be like, Hi, I'm Kevin Jamie's representatives.
Speaker 4: Kevin is such a great fake guy name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kevin's a person fake guy name.
Speaker 3: Could be a guy that's a great negotiator, Kevin. If
Speaker 3: you ever get an email from Kevin, look out you're
Speaker 3: about to get it.
Speaker 2: But you're gonna get fucking yeah. So I I anyway,
Speaker 2: so she gets put up in this. I mean it's
Speaker 2: a nunnery that's attached to a benedicting monastery. I don't
Speaker 2: know benedicting nun is actually the proper term. But she's
Speaker 2: like a nun and the nunnery is attached to this
Speaker 2: Benedicting monastery and she's put under the care of an
Speaker 2: anchoress named Judda. And an anchor is that that whole
Speaker 2: thing means that, like Jutda is supposed to be anchored
Speaker 2: to a place. She and her nuns are not ever
Speaker 2: supposed to leave the monastery, like the world can come
Speaker 2: to them, but they're not supposed to go out right,
Speaker 2: and you.
Speaker 3: Know as supposed to like there are there I guess
Speaker 3: like the some nuns are loose.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well they're able to move around be in
Speaker 2: the world. They can move to different nunneries or different churches,
Speaker 2: are sure, like, because you know, the church starts a
Speaker 2: new church, you got to be able to send some
Speaker 2: nuns over. It's got to be one that's not anchored
Speaker 2: to a place, right. I'm not an expert on this.
Speaker 2: This is just what the reading says. It seems that
Speaker 2: makes sense. I know I've heard of anchorises before. Her
Speaker 2: anchor nuns or yes, yeah, your anchor nuns and your
Speaker 2: loose nuns. Your pocket nuns, so to speak. And by
Speaker 2: the time Hildegard's a young adult, Judda's died, and it
Speaker 2: says a lot about how good Hildegard is at the
Speaker 2: social game that Hildegard gets made Anchorius when she dies,
Speaker 2: like Judda, passes the title onto her. So she's in
Speaker 2: charge now, and she does not like this deal. She
Speaker 2: does not want to be stuck in one place. As
Speaker 2: Mary Devrai writes, she wasn't happy being attached to a
Speaker 2: monastery and asks for permission for the nuns to move
Speaker 2: away and start their own place. No, absolutely not, said
Speaker 2: the abbot. Hildegard wasn't having that, so she went over
Speaker 2: his head to the archbishop. Sure, whatever was his reply.
Speaker 2: But the abbot was not thrilled with the end run
Speaker 2: or losing this community of women handily attached to his monastery,
Speaker 2: or the challenge to has authority, or some other reason
Speaker 2: we can only speculate about. He didn't let the women leave.
Speaker 2: You could say Hildegard wasn't going to take that lying down,
Speaker 2: except that's exactly what happened. Hildegard was stricken, ill by God,
Speaker 2: paralyzed and unable to get up. It was God's unhappiness
Speaker 2: about the nuns not being allowed to move. Hildegard told
Speaker 2: the abbot her fucking awesome.
Speaker 3: She's so cool, like, oh.
Speaker 2: You know, this guy you're telling me exists and talks
Speaker 2: to us. He's talking to me right now, and.
Speaker 3: Oh, I can't come to work if I'm not a
Speaker 3: loose nun. Sorry, right, Oh that's genius.
Speaker 2: It's so cool. She's awesome. So the nuns are get
Speaker 2: to leave her.
Speaker 4: The name Hilda guard back.
Speaker 3: It's a banger.
Speaker 2: Hildegard whips. Yeah, I love it, goes off.
Speaker 4: Sorry, she finds when you're talking about a cool nun
Speaker 4: that just really it just gets me going.
Speaker 2: She's red really coming alive right now. She's only just begun.
Speaker 2: So she she gets to leave with some of her
Speaker 2: other nuns and they get to found a new nunnery
Speaker 2: or whatever you call them, you know. And along the way,
Speaker 2: while they're doing this journey, Hildeguard decides that God had
Speaker 2: made her sick. And she's like around forty when that happens,
Speaker 2: because he wanted her to do something that she hadn't
Speaker 2: been doing. Uh, he'd been giving her visions all these
Speaker 2: years totally. She'd been having but she just had kept
Speaker 2: them to yourself herself. You never like told them to
Speaker 2: anybody until now, But they'd always been there. And she
Speaker 2: writes this, though I saw and heard these things, I
Speaker 2: refused to write for a long time, through doubt and
Speaker 2: bad opinion and the diversity of human words. Not with stubbornness,
Speaker 2: but in the exercise of humility, until laid low by
Speaker 2: the scourge of God. I fell upon a bed of sickness,
Speaker 2: and I spoke and wrote these things, not by the
Speaker 2: invention of my heart or that of any other person,
Speaker 2: but as by the secret mysteries of God. I heard
Speaker 2: and received them in the heavenly places. And again I
Speaker 2: heard a voice from heaven saying to me, cry out
Speaker 2: therefore and write. Thus, basically, God's saying, you need to
Speaker 2: go out into the world and write books and hill
Speaker 2: regards like, that's what God wants me to do. And sorry,
Speaker 2: she reach.
Speaker 3: God wants me pivot.
Speaker 2: God wants me to pivot pivoting the books.
Speaker 3: I love this. It's the same like religious narrative we hear,
Speaker 3: but it's like only being used to liberate her specifically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's extremely cool.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's cool in the sense of like but
Speaker 4: the same thing happens in like the FLDS for like
Speaker 4: a new guy's like.
Speaker 3: I'm a prophet.
Speaker 4: Now the big guy told me I need seventy five
Speaker 4: Why it works?
Speaker 3: No one can do it.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately.
Speaker 3: This is this is that that strategy being used in
Speaker 3: the right way.
Speaker 2: In the very coolest of ways. So Hildegard reaches out
Speaker 2: to the pope and she's like, this is what God said.
Speaker 2: She sends what I just read basically to the pope,
Speaker 2: and the pope is like, tell yeah, God wants you
Speaker 2: to write, Like here's some fucking money. Why don't you
Speaker 2: pick out a team of like helpers and they'll like
Speaker 2: transcribe and write out and like publish, you know, all
Speaker 2: of all of your visions from God and books. And
Speaker 2: so she starts putting out books that are supposed to
Speaker 2: be inspired by God. I don't, I don't know, I don't.
Speaker 2: I didn't look that up. This isn't a story about
Speaker 2: a man.
Speaker 4: Anytime there's like a pope that does like a slight,
Speaker 4: a slight cool thing, I'm like, noted.
Speaker 2: I should have looked into the pope. You're right, but w.
Speaker 3: Is few and far between.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially in this period twelfth century.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: She publishes a bunch of books, and one of them
Speaker 2: is called cause at Kurai, and it contains what is
Speaker 2: generally agreed to be the oldest description of a woman
Speaker 2: having an orgasm written by a woman.
Speaker 3: Right, Is this told by her? Or is this God
Speaker 3: telling her what an orgasm might feel like?
Speaker 2: She says it's God because she couldn't know, obviously, God.
Speaker 2: She hasn't experienced what God's like.
Speaker 3: You're none, So this is like I'm.
Speaker 2: Going to let you in you. It is fucked up
Speaker 2: if you think about it that way.
Speaker 3: I love it. It's like God is taunting her. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: he's being a real dick here.
Speaker 2: So here's how Hildegard writes about the orgasm she definitely
Speaker 2: never experienced. When a woman is making love with a man,
Speaker 2: a sense of heat in her brain, which brings with
Speaker 2: it sensual delight, communicates the taste of that delight during
Speaker 2: the act, and summon's forth the emission of the man's seed,
Speaker 2: and when the seed has fallen into its place, that
Speaker 2: the hement heat descending from her brain draws the seed
Speaker 2: to itself and holds it, and soon the woman's sexual
Speaker 2: organs tracked, and all the parts that are ready to
Speaker 2: open up during the time of instruation now close, and
Speaker 2: the same way a strong man can hold something enclosed
Speaker 2: in his fist. So okay, now very Catholic, you know,
Speaker 2: very twelfth century.
Speaker 3: Okay, Okay, I honestly I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed. I wanted something.
Speaker 3: I wanted something sexier.
Speaker 2: Something sexier. She's a nun, she's sight.
Speaker 4: Yes, if she was alive now, she would have loved
Speaker 4: that song Pussy Palace.
Speaker 2: She would have been huge about that one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean, describing being horny for a guy
Speaker 3: as a result of a brain fever is kind of potent.
Speaker 4: It's super funny, yeah, kind of relatable.
Speaker 2: Hildegard lives a great life the Church Center. She gets
Speaker 2: to do all the things she'd always dreamed about. The
Speaker 2: Church censor on four long speaking tours where she travels
Speaker 2: around like Europe and gets to talk about her work
Speaker 2: to learned audiences of learned men. She's super widely respon acted.
Speaker 2: Her books are fairly widely distributed, and in addition to
Speaker 2: that bit about the orgasm, she also wrote out descriptions
Speaker 2: of the four kinds of men, and this doesn't really
Speaker 2: directly talk impact our episode, but I couldn't read these
Speaker 2: and not include them because some of them are pretty
Speaker 2: spot on today.
Speaker 3: Okay, what men be like? What a men be like?
Speaker 2: Hildegard men be like? So you got to know first.
Speaker 2: Her writing on this is somewhat influenced by the Greek
Speaker 2: belief that the body is governed by four humors earthwind, air,
Speaker 2: and fire, as well as something called bile. Right that
Speaker 2: like the mix of these, the ratio of them determines
Speaker 2: and like alters behavior and mood and personality.
Speaker 3: Right, they missed that nation in last airba hower.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they have then. So the first kind of the
Speaker 2: first kind of men, Hildegard said, are all fire. As
Speaker 2: soon as they get sight of a woman, hear of one,
Speaker 2: or simply fancy one in thought. Their blood is burning
Speaker 2: with a blaze. Their eyes are kept fixed on the
Speaker 2: object of their love like arrows, as soon as they
Speaker 2: catch sight of it. And these men are terrible people
Speaker 2: to be in relationship with, because all they can do
Speaker 2: is fuck unless they're balanced by wind, which cools down
Speaker 2: their fiery genitals and lets them have honorable and fruitful
Speaker 2: relationships with women. And the second type of man is
Speaker 2: a man who is a man of fire and of wind,
Speaker 2: and quote, the eyes of such men can meet squarely
Speaker 2: with those of the women, much in contrast to those
Speaker 2: other men's eyes that were fixed on them like arrows.
Speaker 2: Which is really interesting thing to note, is like, can
Speaker 2: a guy just like see you as a person. It's
Speaker 2: kind of what she's saying here, I think, right like.
Speaker 3: She's just describing a man who could be a friend. Possibly.
Speaker 3: It is also sounding like vaguely kind of astrological the
Speaker 3: way that she's categorizing them. Yeah, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 2: And yeah. She also includes an incisive description of toxic men,
Speaker 2: who she describes as being full of bile.
Speaker 3: They're vile men.
Speaker 2: It's really fun. They're incapable of having a genuine, loving
Speaker 2: relationship with any being. Through that, they become bitter, avaricious,
Speaker 2: and full of foolishness and abundant passion. In intercourse with women,
Speaker 2: they know no moderation and act like donkeys. Definitely, she
Speaker 2: never had sex. Definitely, she never had sex.
Speaker 3: This her ex was human when he read that. It's
Speaker 3: that was I do appreciate it. That is that is
Speaker 3: like a very like subtle but important distinction of like
Speaker 3: a man who is just like wildly horny, and a
Speaker 3: man who is both horny and really into mind games
Speaker 3: that are like ruinous.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, like the retire fuck Boy and bring Back
Speaker 4: You're full of bile?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're full of bile. That's that's we got
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know who's not full of bile though, Robert, That's.
Speaker 2: Right, that's right. Soyvie, I was just about to do
Speaker 2: it myself.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I did it first.
Speaker 2: You did it first. You did it first. And the
Speaker 2: sponsors of our podcast have no bile.
Speaker 3: At all, honey, bileless.
Speaker 2: And we're back. They might have had some bio in them.
Speaker 3: I don't know, We don't know.
Speaker 2: Who knows what you people listen to?
Speaker 3: Oh the fuck knows.
Speaker 4: Who our sponsors are, not me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so here's my favorite thing, And this is
Speaker 2: something married of Rye points out in her article on
Speaker 2: this is that Hildegarden might be the first writer to
Speaker 2: describe in cells in the twelfth century. It's fucking amazing.
Speaker 3: Is this the fourth kind of guy? This is?
Speaker 2: She kind of branches out from that to discuss the
Speaker 2: different ways different kinds of men responding celibacy. So she
Speaker 2: lays out the kinds of men, and she talks about
Speaker 2: here's how they respond to like not having sex. And
Speaker 2: one of these types of men is obviously a gay guy,
Speaker 2: but she does not understand that. So she's like, some
Speaker 2: men are fine with it. And it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're missing a piece of the story, Hildegarden. That's fine.
Speaker 2: But she she writes here about men who stay celibate
Speaker 2: not out of religious obligation, but because they hate women. Quote,
Speaker 2: they nicely receive any love from their fellow men, nor
Speaker 2: have any inclination to a social life of their own.
Speaker 2: All the more since they exhaust themselves with continuous figments
Speaker 2: of their imagination. Then when they meet people, they are
Speaker 2: already full of hate, malevolence and the wrong attitudes, so
Speaker 2: they can't enjoy company anymore. It's amazing how spot on
Speaker 2: that ship is.
Speaker 4: Just talking about Clovicular.
Speaker 2: That's the twelfth century.
Speaker 3: That could be.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 3: We always think that like this jet, like whatever generation
Speaker 3: has really reached the final stage of misogyny and like
Speaker 3: being socially horrible.
Speaker 4: But nope, Hildegard described the manosphere.
Speaker 2: All the way back then.
Speaker 3: You could have told me that was in the cut
Speaker 3: last week.
Speaker 2: That's nice. Yep, that's fucking crazy. Now. Unfortunately, this is
Speaker 2: where we gotta leave our friend Hildegarden. It was awesome
Speaker 2: and never did anything wrong, but we are not the show.
Speaker 2: Our friend Margaret killed joyed us, so we're not gonna
Speaker 2: talk about Hildegard anymore.
Speaker 3: Margaret dropped the Hildeguard episode.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love you, just as this episode is going
Speaker 2: to be kind of downhill after Hildegard. The way women's
Speaker 2: sexuality was discussed in like pot like medical literature in
Speaker 2: the Western world went kind of downhill after hilde Guard. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: there's one bright spot in the word sixteen sixty, the
Speaker 2: word orgasm gets coined for the first time. There's a
Speaker 2: doctor named Nathaniel Hymour who used the term to describe
Speaker 2: what happens during a pelvic massage. Even that early medical
Speaker 2: professionals were experimenting with the idea that orgasms could treat
Speaker 2: certain women's diseases. And you know this is this is
Speaker 2: just like any anything to do with like the vagina
Speaker 2: is women's in this era like that that's just the
Speaker 2: way like all of the writing is in this period
Speaker 2: of time, right.
Speaker 4: Sounds like a fucking red bull commercial. It sounds like
Speaker 4: they're just saying, endorphins give you wings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, that's basically the idea. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Through the eighteen hundreds, in Western Europe and elsewhere, including
Speaker 2: the United States, it became more and more common to
Speaker 2: diagnose women with hysteria. This that they're like they're not
Speaker 2: happy with like wearing restrictive clothing and hiding from society
Speaker 2: and like never seeing anybody until they're married and they married,
Speaker 2: go to school. Those I mean, they have eleven children.
Speaker 3: These these broads. When are they gonna It isn't just
Speaker 3: because like this hysterias stuff is so well worn, but
Speaker 3: it's like even framing it as like a cure of
Speaker 3: like like an orgasm for us, this woman has to
Speaker 3: be productive in some way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, gotta get got to make some shit happen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, cannot to this day, cannot just be for fun.
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not so. Doctors in the Victorian area did
Speaker 2: eventually hit upon the orgasm as a cure for hysteria,
Speaker 2: and some of the first electronic medical devices were invented
Speaker 2: to aid them. These are the first vibrators, right, and
Speaker 2: before these first gadgets, doctors had to use their hands
Speaker 2: to do this job. In eighteen ninety one, Directs invented
Speaker 2: a steam powered manipulator that's like the earliest vibrator. It
Speaker 2: was so loud you could not.
Speaker 3: The steampunk vibrator is steampunk vibrant. Yeah, it's like a
Speaker 3: horny thing executed in the least sexy ways possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's actually there's a there's a sex store in
Speaker 2: San Francisco, Good Vibrations that is a part of this story,
Speaker 2: because this cult winds up and briefly involved there that
Speaker 2: has a vibrator museum. You can see a lot of
Speaker 2: these old vibrators if you go there, like.
Speaker 3: Were the Victorian vibrators also inextricably had forty settings that
Speaker 3: you have to click through every single one to.
Speaker 2: Turn it off.
Speaker 4: Cool.
Speaker 2: Absolutely cool.
Speaker 3: So that's a feature that ghost.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Cool.
Speaker 2: So the vibrator was the fifth common household appliance to
Speaker 2: become electrified. It beat the vacuum by about one hundred years.
Speaker 2: That's pretty cool. I think that's that's priorities. In nineteen
Speaker 2: forty eight, Alfred Kinsey conducted his first major sexual survey,
Speaker 2: and people started talking about orgasms of all types in
Speaker 2: manners much more familiar to the modern sentiment, men and
Speaker 2: women's sexual desire gradually became a more approachable topic of discussion.
Speaker 2: The APA continued to diagnose hysteria and prescribe orgasms as
Speaker 2: a treatment until nineteen fifth two, but things changed rapidly
Speaker 2: after this point. In the nineteen sixties, Masters and Johnson
Speaker 2: started conducting groundbreaking studies on why women orgasmed. As Sarah
Speaker 2: Mansell writes, they discovered that women could have multiple orgasms
Speaker 2: from both vaginal orculatoral stimulation, and also realized it took
Speaker 2: women about ten or twenty minutes of sex play to
Speaker 2: reach orgasm, compared to just four minutes for men. In
Speaker 2: the decades since, we've learned a lot more about the
Speaker 2: vagina and the clitorists, which is the only organ that
Speaker 2: exists solely for pleasure, but we've learned even more about
Speaker 2: the physiological benefits of orgasms. About sixty percent of people
Speaker 2: with migraines experience of reduction or into symptoms after one.
Speaker 2: And there's a bunch of other stuff about like it
Speaker 2: has an impact on you, right including just like you know,
Speaker 2: if you have a penis in terms of like your
Speaker 2: eurogenital health, Doing it regularly reduces the odds of certain diseases.
Speaker 2: There's a bunch of that that we understand.
Speaker 3: So I just want to make sure i'd be clear
Speaker 3: after the eight nine years of this podcast existed, we
Speaker 3: are coming and saying clearly coming is good, Coming is.
Speaker 2: Good is great. Has never been an anticoming podcast. Okay, okay,
Speaker 2: this is just usually you don't want to think about
Speaker 2: coming when you're hearing about Hitler podcast. Like, that's more
Speaker 2: why we don't talk about it on the show.
Speaker 3: Cumming is medically good.
Speaker 2: Yes, cutting is medically good outside of the contexts that
Speaker 2: people usually come in behind the.
Speaker 4: Bastards, consensual coming is good.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So this actually gets to another really important point
Speaker 2: about orgasm and sexual desire that we've come to understand
Speaker 2: more fully in the modern age. And twenty fifteen, sex
Speaker 2: educator Emily Nagoski published an op ed in The New
Speaker 2: York Times during fallout over the failure of the FDA
Speaker 2: to approve fibranscren. I think is the name, which is
Speaker 2: a drug that was supposed to increase female desire. That's
Speaker 2: like the description of what the truck does. I think
Speaker 2: it's basically a drug that increases like vaginal lubrication. I
Speaker 2: think is kind of the idea, and Naghoski had an
Speaker 2: issue with this. She wrote that the biggest problem with
Speaker 2: the drug and with the FDA's consideration of it, is
Speaker 2: that it's backers are attempting to treat something that isn't
Speaker 2: a disease. Her argument was that modern research suggests there
Speaker 2: are multiple perfectly normal forms of sexual desire. Some people
Speaker 2: experience more spontaneous sexual desire, which is like somebody with
Speaker 2: a dick getting hard, right Like, that's what generally society
Speaker 2: sees as male sexual desire. That's not the only thing
Speaker 2: that male sexual that spontaneous sexual desire is, but it's
Speaker 2: the kind of thing you can treat with a pill sometimes,
Speaker 2: right like that, or at least you can imitate it
Speaker 2: with a pill. A lot of people are way more
Speaker 2: into and feel way more responsive sexual desire, and you
Speaker 2: can't just drug somewhat into that because it's responsive to
Speaker 2: a situation and a relationship, right, Yeah, as neghosts.
Speaker 3: I'd sooner drug someone than try to have an interesting conversation.
Speaker 2: With exactly exactly. Yeah, okay, And that's that's kind of
Speaker 2: Nagoski's point. She writes, I can't count the number of
Speaker 2: women I've talked to who assume that because through desire
Speaker 2: is responsive rather than spontaneous, they have low desire, that
Speaker 2: their ability to enjoy sex with their partner is meaningless
Speaker 2: if they don't also feel a persistent urge for it.
Speaker 2: In shure that they are broken because their desire isn't
Speaker 2: what it's supposed to be. So the road for Masters
Speaker 2: and Johnson to what I just read you has not
Speaker 2: been as smoother and even one. Once people started to
Speaker 2: accept that sexual desire was normal and even good for
Speaker 2: both men and women, our culture experienced a sexual awakening
Speaker 2: that took on many forms, a lot of them problematic. Right,
Speaker 2: Some of what you get is like the free love
Speaker 2: movements of the sixties and the seventies, and of course
Speaker 2: the backlash to that movement too. Now our subject for
Speaker 2: these episodes. Nicole Adone was born on August twenty fourth,
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty four, right in the smack in the middle
Speaker 2: of this massive period of evolution and how we talk
Speaker 2: about and understand sex. She had a difficult upbringing. Her father, Joseph,
Speaker 2: separated from her mother, Beverly, when Nicole was like seven,
Speaker 2: and her earliest memories are of her desperate desire to
Speaker 2: have more of a relationship with her father than she
Speaker 2: was going to have. In the book Empire of Orgasm,
Speaker 2: Ellen Hewitt writes he only visited sporadically, and Nicole adored him.
Speaker 2: When he was away, she stood for hours under a
Speaker 2: street lamp on her house's cul de sac, trying to
Speaker 2: stummen him. She invented bargains with the universe, certain that
Speaker 2: if she sang out loud the songs of al Green,
Speaker 2: her day dad's favorites, and cross the street with her
Speaker 2: eyes shut spun three times to the left, her dad's
Speaker 2: car would roll into view from around the latest street.
Speaker 2: And that's bleak.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's heartbreaking. And also how many I'd be really
Speaker 3: curious how many young girls were regularly singing weirdly romantic
Speaker 3: songs to their dad. It's a writer zero, Yeah, in a.
Speaker 2: Way, Yeah, I honestly that fucked me up a little bit,
Speaker 2: just because weirdly enough to coll and I, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of points where we have like very similar beats
Speaker 2: in our lives, Like like I was very adjacent to
Speaker 2: this community and some of these coldest I'm sure it
Speaker 2: was at the same parties as some of them, just
Speaker 2: because of the places my life took me and the
Speaker 2: communities I was in. But when I was like six,
Speaker 2: my dad had to leave us for like two years.
Speaker 2: Like we were in Oklahoma on the family farm and
Speaker 2: we had no money, and he got a job in
Speaker 2: New York City and he lived on his friend's couch
Speaker 2: and he mailed us back money. And I did the
Speaker 2: same thing, like I can remember doing the same thing,
Speaker 2: like being like if I do this in this, he
Speaker 2: won't leave again, right, Like it's a very normal little
Speaker 2: kid thing to do. It's very sad story. My dad
Speaker 2: came back. Hers never did because it turns and it's good. Well,
Speaker 2: it's good that he didn't because Joseph was a creep
Speaker 2: and a pedophile. In nineteen seventy six, he was arrested
Speaker 2: in charge with child molestation.
Speaker 3: Sorry, forty one minute.
Speaker 2: Forty one minutes, forty one money all free. That's thirty
Speaker 2: seven on mine. Yeah, okay, that's behind the Bast's the
Speaker 2: new shirt forty one minutes pedophile free and twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3: We'll start so lout.
Speaker 4: I'm not going to sell that shirt, but I.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Soviet does not like shirts that have pedophile on them.
Speaker 4: I don't know, I don't want to sell anything, thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so he gets arrested in seventy six and
Speaker 2: charged with child molestation, including oral copulation with a child
Speaker 2: under fourteen. We don't know who that was, but Nicole
Speaker 2: would have been around nine at the time, and much
Speaker 2: later she would tell a lot of people, like when
Speaker 2: she's a young adult, she tells people that her dad
Speaker 2: did sexually assault her when she was a child. We
Speaker 2: don't know more than that. She's going to change that
Speaker 2: story dramatically several times. She comes up with a different
Speaker 2: version of it for every major pu read of her life.
Speaker 2: And I just have no more to say than that, right.
Speaker 2: I also don't know was her abuse connected to what
Speaker 2: her dad got arrested for, or was it something nobody
Speaker 2: ever knew until she was an adult, whatever the case.
Speaker 2: As a little kid, she acts out in some weird
Speaker 2: but understandable ways. She has a thing for Like she
Speaker 2: she likes biting knees. Like she will obxcessively try to
Speaker 2: bite the back of women's knees. She's like crawling around
Speaker 2: and like bite her like aunt or whatever in the
Speaker 2: back of the knees. It's like a thing. She's obsessed
Speaker 2: with right, and you know, she gets yelled at.
Speaker 4: I liked Pokemon cards, but okay.
Speaker 2: It's weird.
Speaker 3: It's a little weird and hers and she does have
Speaker 3: like an OCD kind of like yeah, or ritualize it, yeah.
Speaker 2: Sure, compulsions. She says, it feels like there's an animal
Speaker 2: inside her trying to get out, right, Like. That's that's
Speaker 2: how she would later describe it. As Nicole grew up,
Speaker 2: she seems to have had fairly minimal oversight from her
Speaker 2: mother and a deep hunger for self exploration and discovery.
Speaker 2: She dated boys and girls, and she had a sugar
Speaker 2: daddy at age sixteen. That's all we get about that.
Speaker 2: But she's she's not very heavily watched. Right years later,
Speaker 2: when she led an organization often described as a cult,
Speaker 2: she was described in the UK Times as having grown
Speaker 2: up quote a natural leader who says she didn't want
Speaker 2: to be followed. But that's not really accurate, and it
Speaker 2: leaves out a pretty important detail, which is that when
Speaker 2: Nicole turned eighteen, she cut off her father right, who
Speaker 2: is now at a jail, completely. She has no more
Speaker 2: contact with him. After this point, she starts telling people
Speaker 2: like whenever she gets to know someone that like, yeah,
Speaker 2: my dad did this to me when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: And this is like a story that she tells a lot.
Speaker 2: She's like processing it right. She goes to college a
Speaker 2: couple of different colleges, but they don't work out, so
Speaker 2: she finally winds up back in the Bay Area, attending
Speaker 2: San Francisco State University. The Guardian says she graduated, but Hewitt,
Speaker 2: her biographer, denies this either way. Nicole spent her twenties
Speaker 2: in the Bay during the early nineteen nineties, which was
Speaker 2: both dealing and reeling from the AIDS crisis still and
Speaker 2: also experience in the birth of the Silicon Valley tech set. Right,
Speaker 2: a lot of things are happening at once, and also
Speaker 2: Burning Man starting in the early nineties, and that is
Speaker 2: actually a really relevant part of the show because these
Speaker 2: episodes of Unfortunate, it's in the background, like a lot
Speaker 2: of things here, like a lot of people, a lot
Speaker 2: of people in this story meet at or like even
Speaker 2: if they don't meet there, they get into like experimenting
Speaker 2: with alternate you know, medicine and all that stuff because
Speaker 2: they like take mushrooms at Burning Man. Like that's a
Speaker 2: really common story with the for the men in this tale.
Speaker 2: But like particularly every.
Speaker 3: Time I talk shit about burning man, I get like
Speaker 3: it turns out someone beloved in the room is like
Speaker 3: it changed my life, and then I have to like
Speaker 3: backpedal in an embarrassing way, even though I meant it.
Speaker 2: I mean, like I went to the the like the
Speaker 2: small ones in Texas definitely had a huge impact on me.
Speaker 2: But I never wanted to go to the big one
Speaker 2: because there's fucking cops there. Like, yeah, I don't want
Speaker 2: to create my own little city in the woods to
Speaker 2: take drugs in if there's police officers.
Speaker 4: That sounds all that time they got stuck, mudded in
Speaker 4: and all that shit.
Speaker 2: I know, that's fine. I got we had a flood
Speaker 2: one year that nearly killed a bunch of people. It
Speaker 2: was crazy.
Speaker 4: Somebody people die.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think it's like my inter like New Englander.
Speaker 3: But when I see pictures of Bernie Man, I'm like,
Speaker 3: get a job, Like what.
Speaker 2: Are you doing out there not having a job and
Speaker 2: taking a lot of drugs.
Speaker 3: Or in this case, I'm assuming taking a break from
Speaker 3: your job.
Speaker 2: In Silicon getting a break from my job. I mean,
Speaker 2: we were like everyone I knew there, like half the
Speaker 2: people I took drugs with like fucking er doctors and
Speaker 2: ship like a lot of a lot of people with
Speaker 2: jobs were like, I have a very high stressed job,
Speaker 2: and I need a week to take drugs with my friends.
Speaker 2: Otherwise I'm going.
Speaker 3: To wear some really bad outfits this week to blow
Speaker 3: off some steam.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm going to address ridiculously good lord. So Nicole,
Speaker 2: in her early twenties starts experimenting with drugs, namely methamphetamine,
Speaker 2: which she would take by drop it. She's a parachuter.
Speaker 2: She puts it in like tissue paper and eats it like,
Speaker 2: which is a crazy way to do meth in particular,
Speaker 2: but you do you, honey. I guess she experiments with
Speaker 2: psychedelics too. She's taken a lot of acid, and she's
Speaker 2: partying with people who are like involved in the first
Speaker 2: Internet boom and also like and this is burning Man before,
Speaker 2: by the way, it was like a famous thing that
Speaker 2: the tech set attended. This is when there's like guns,
Speaker 2: like people are bringing a full on machine guns and
Speaker 2: it's like largely insane libertarians and wizards. So it's a
Speaker 2: slightly different period of time.
Speaker 3: What a weird yeah, like transitional time in the Bay
Speaker 3: I feel like I don't hear about it very often.
Speaker 2: Well, the lot after the Bay used to be a
Speaker 2: lot cooler and a lot yes, less governed by all
Speaker 2: of the people who are billionaires live here. Like it was,
Speaker 2: it was always weird and maniacs lived there, but they
Speaker 2: were often very cool maniacs who gradually got priced out
Speaker 2: of the Bay. So again, I had a very similar,
Speaker 2: like eighteen to twenty two year old ty, like I'm
Speaker 2: going to a lot of parties and doing drugs with
Speaker 2: people in weird places. And I also feel like Nicole
Speaker 2: that I was very let down by higher education, which
Speaker 2: I'd been told it was fun and there were a
Speaker 2: lot of parties, but it was mostly just like high school.
Speaker 2: Part two. Nichole's also let down by working in retail
Speaker 2: and food service jobs, which you know, same, like it
Speaker 2: sucks you're a young adult and realizing this shit is
Speaker 2: not as fun as you thought it was. But periodically
Speaker 2: you have, you know, these encounters and parties with people
Speaker 2: where you're like spending like two days on acid and
Speaker 2: time stops existing and you're like, boy, I wish I
Speaker 2: could just escape regular life. I feel like there's got
Speaker 2: to be a way to do that, and some of
Speaker 2: us write for the internet to get that, and some
Speaker 2: of us do want to cult us.
Speaker 3: She didn't need to start an orgasm empire. She could
Speaker 3: have just started.
Speaker 2: A podcast, that's right. She could have started writing Cracked magazine.
Speaker 2: You know, there were a lot of options.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, liberated many many lost dot com.
Speaker 2: So the big difference between like kind of where our
Speaker 2: paths diverge here is that Nicole starts like she decides
Speaker 2: that the kind of work that's going to take me
Speaker 2: out of this like rat race that I hated first
Speaker 2: is like sex work, right, And she's a high, highly
Speaker 2: paid escort. Apparently there's some evidence for that. She's fairly successful.
Speaker 2: And she realizes she feels really powerful because all of
Speaker 2: these men with a lot of money, who have been
Speaker 2: much more career successful than her, aren't just paying her,
Speaker 2: but they're often like crying in front of her and
Speaker 2: like breaking down. And so she realizes, like she has
Speaker 2: this very important relilation, which is that like, oh, it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter how rich they are or like how what
Speaker 2: title they have, Like men are dumb and I can
Speaker 2: control them, right, Like that's the thing.
Speaker 3: She likes that that's an important day.
Speaker 2: It's an important lesson.
Speaker 3: I mean, we.
Speaker 4: Are I several friends who are sex workers, and that
Speaker 4: is a very very common thread that men often just
Speaker 4: like don't know how to go to a therapist, and
Speaker 4: so they go and seek out therapy from a from
Speaker 4: a sex worker. Yeah, and there's a lot of crying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I had I had a friend who was
Speaker 2: an escort and one of her regular clients was this
Speaker 2: like big Russian mob dude who would come in like
Speaker 2: twice a year and didn't even want to have sex,
Speaker 2: would just lay on top of her and cry for
Speaker 2: like four hours, and like that was that was what
Speaker 2: this guy was willing to pay for. Just like, okay,
Speaker 2: that that implies some dark things about your days job, But.
Speaker 3: No follow up question, no.
Speaker 2: Follow the state. So she's, uh, she's she's doing this
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, and Hewitt writes with each
Speaker 2: client she practiced her cold reading, trying to deduce what
Speaker 2: the man secretly wanted. She quickly learned that her sexual
Speaker 2: insights held significant economic value. So the time she's twenty seven,
Speaker 2: you know, this is kind of where she's at, and
Speaker 2: she gets a call from her mom that her dad
Speaker 2: is sick and dying in a prison hospital. She had
Speaker 2: not been in contact, so she didn't know he'd gone
Speaker 2: back to prison, but her mom tells you. It tells
Speaker 2: her like, yeah, he's back in prison. And that's how
Speaker 2: Nicole learns that her dad had been arrested for child
Speaker 2: molestation again, this time for abusing two preteen girls, including
Speaker 2: his twelve year old granddaughter who was living with him. Nicole,
Speaker 2: this hits very hard. She's shocked by this development. She
Speaker 2: travels to visit her dad, and as he dies, she
Speaker 2: tells him that she forgives him. And again, we know
Speaker 2: this because she tells this story a lot. I don't know. Again,
Speaker 2: I actually don't know how true it is. But this
Speaker 2: is like an important when she becomes a guru. This
Speaker 2: is a story she will repeat a lot in the
Speaker 2: early years of being a guru. Right, and the way
Speaker 2: she tells it. His death kind of convinces her to
Speaker 2: fully unmoor herself from mainstream society. So, like many of
Speaker 2: us did, she moved into a warehouse. Hers was in
Speaker 2: San Francisco, where a group of Theosophists live and operated
Speaker 2: a sort of magical commune, and largely took a lot
Speaker 2: of LSD. Right, many of us have had experiences like this,
Speaker 2: I a perfectly fine way to deal with things.
Speaker 3: Who among us whom? It is interesting hearing that like
Speaker 3: she was developing cold reading too, because it just like
Speaker 3: you hear so many points where she could have like,
Speaker 3: you're like, she could have been a fake medium. She
Speaker 3: could have done all so many other jobs. Yeah, she's
Speaker 3: got so many skills.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, she's got so many skills. And now she's
Speaker 2: living with wizards in a warehouse and taking acid every day. Now, right,
Speaker 2: this may not have been as fun because she would
Speaker 2: later and again she's always saying this as she's like
Speaker 2: giving parables to her followers to portray a message, so
Speaker 2: who knows what's true. But a story she would later
Speaker 2: relate while lecturing her followers is that she moves into
Speaker 2: this with like a girlfriend of hers at the time,
Speaker 2: and her girlfriend is like very abusive and is basically
Speaker 2: applying her with drugs until she would burn out, and
Speaker 2: then she would hand her off to someone else to
Speaker 2: recover and then take Nicole back and feeder more drugs.
Speaker 2: And you know, Nicole would say, quote until I was
Speaker 2: insane looking for Jesus in the streets, adding up all
Speaker 2: the numbers on every house I passed right that like this,
Speaker 2: this is a very abusive relationship, and this woman like
Speaker 2: uses psychedelics to kind of like shatter Nichole's psyche. You know,
Speaker 2: make sure you know own someone for a while before
Speaker 2: you start taking drugs with them. Kids, if you're gonna
Speaker 2: take drugs with a with a romantic partner, don't take
Speaker 2: ecstasy on the first date. That'll fuck you up way
Speaker 2: more than acid. Well, boy, what you don't need when
Speaker 2: you're starting a relationship is a massive oxytose and dump
Speaker 2: artificially induced.
Speaker 3: And let me guess, all the men calling themselves wizards
Speaker 3: she lived with weren't helpful.
Speaker 2: I don't think they helped. I don't think the will's a.
Speaker 3: Fucking kidding the wizard help.
Speaker 2: Oh man. So in Nicole's case, it led her to
Speaker 2: remain dropped out of society once she leaves the warehouse.
Speaker 2: She's around thirty now, and she decides, I'm to become
Speaker 2: a Buddhist nun at a Zen monastery, like kill the
Speaker 2: guard kind of.
Speaker 3: There is the kind of this mad Libs approach to
Speaker 3: her life that I appreciate.
Speaker 2: It's very Bay Area in the nineties.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, I feel like my equivalent of it is
Speaker 3: like when you find out you're like Los Angeles therapist
Speaker 3: was in three episodes of SVU twenty years ago, You're like, right,
Speaker 3: this is the pivot. This was kind of Yeah.
Speaker 2: When you live up in the mountains of northern California
Speaker 2: and the twenty teens and everyone over forty that you
Speaker 2: know in the cannabis business had previously lived in a
Speaker 2: warehouse in San Francisco where they taken drugs with wizards
Speaker 2: or there were cartels. Yeah. Anyway, so Nicole found aspects
Speaker 2: of the non life appealing, but she was also really
Speaker 2: anxious about the fact that she was gonna have to
Speaker 2: give up sex. So she decides, like, well, before I
Speaker 2: do this, I'm gonna just go wild for like a
Speaker 2: week and have a week of just like craz sex
Speaker 2: before I become a nun and don't have anymore. Right,
Speaker 2: So that's her plan.
Speaker 3: A Buddhist rum spring a.
Speaker 2: A a Buddhist rum springer. In a twenty twenty five
Speaker 2: article for The New York Times, Kareem Raimie describes what
Speaker 2: happened next. She met a man at a party. There
Speaker 2: is a practice you might want to try, Nicola calls him,
Speaker 2: telling her before they headed down to his place, a
Speaker 2: yoga ashrom. Take off your pants and lie down, he
Speaker 2: told her, I'm going to take my clothes off. I'm
Speaker 2: going to stroke you for fifteen minutes. It seemed insane
Speaker 2: at first, she says, but she did as she was told.
Speaker 2: The experience was eye opening. She says, I was walking
Speaker 2: home at night and just felt so clear. And first off,
Speaker 2: that's that's interesting, Like it really says a lot about
Speaker 2: kind of where her life has led her that this
Speaker 2: guy says this, and she's like, yeah, sure, I'll give
Speaker 2: it a shot. That said, I've also done still like
Speaker 2: that because I met a stranger at a party, So
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 3: Who am I? I mean? For I feel like it's
Speaker 3: really luck of the draw of what kind of parties
Speaker 3: you have access to have.
Speaker 2: Access offers to take you back to what ashram r.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And like that man could have been very scary,
Speaker 4: very scary.
Speaker 2: Apparently he wasn't.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's some light yoga culting, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think the worst that ever happened to me at
Speaker 3: a party of that nature was that I briefly pretended
Speaker 3: to be really into wweamie. You just never know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I lived at a house in Houston with some
Speaker 2: very strange people for like a week and a half
Speaker 2: as a result of something like that. It didn't last.
Speaker 2: Thank god, that ended badly, half buddy, So Yeah. In
Speaker 2: other encounter accounts that she's given of this encounter, Nicole
Speaker 2: emphasizes that before this guy got her started, he just
Speaker 2: like looked at her genitals and described them to her
Speaker 2: and told her that they were beautiful, and she like cried,
Speaker 2: realizing that no one had ever said anything like that
Speaker 2: to her before. And this has become like will become
Speaker 2: an important part of like the her theory on orgasmic
Speaker 2: meditation would she's going to invent based on all of
Speaker 2: this later on. Right, this is like one of the
Speaker 2: steps that you have to go through in this, which
Speaker 2: makes being in a room full of like twenty people
Speaker 2: doing this really strange. So she finds this guy again.
Speaker 2: He turns out he's a dude named Irwan Davon, right,
Speaker 2: and he's a student of a practice called deliberate orgasm
Speaker 2: and the idea had come from a Bay Area commune
Speaker 2: started in nineteen sixty eight, the Moorhouse Community, which could
Speaker 2: have been founded by a guy named Victor Baranco or Vic,
Speaker 2: who was some self a product of the free love
Speaker 2: and the self improvement movement. He was also used appliant.
Speaker 4: Salesman contact here.
Speaker 3: That's fine, This is just like a neighborhood rumor, Like
Speaker 3: you won't have any idea who you've just bought a
Speaker 3: wrench from?
Speaker 2: Yeah, where his hands have been? So when I was
Speaker 2: writing these episodes, I was planning for this to just
Speaker 2: be a quick two episodes. I think it's going to
Speaker 2: be at least three because I had to go into
Speaker 2: the whole history of the different orgasm cults that have
Speaker 2: existed in the in the Bay air is solely in California. Well,
Speaker 2: they spread, but they start in California. You damn sure
Speaker 2: about that? Sure? Yeah? So, uh here's how Here's how
Speaker 2: Ellen Hewitt describes Vic's journey. Vic claimed to have learned
Speaker 2: the meditative clittoral stroking technique deliberate orgasm in his thirties
Speaker 2: from a self proclaimed witch when he and his wife
Speaker 2: were seeking help with their sex life. The actual origin
Speaker 2: of the practice is hard to pin down, but Vic
Speaker 2: realized the value of the idea quickly. In nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 2: he started a commune in Lafayette California. He picked the
Speaker 2: name Morehouse because it was the place dedicated to living
Speaker 2: with more. Here's how one of vix lieutenants put it.
Speaker 2: We at Morehouse believe that every day a Sunday. We
Speaker 2: believe that we are on earth to have a good time,
Speaker 2: to devote our lives to pleasure. We call it responsible hedonism.
Speaker 3: I can't this is it's so silly. It's so silly
Speaker 3: that this is. It sounds like a man who realized
Speaker 3: he never made his wife come in their thirties, and
Speaker 3: instead of just making her come, was like, I have
Speaker 3: to start a business.
Speaker 2: Like there's money in this baby. Baby, did you know
Speaker 2: you could do that?
Speaker 3: And she's like, yeah, yeah, you could have done it
Speaker 3: at any time. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Married man in his thirties discovers orgasms and decides there's money.
Speaker 3: Monetizing women's or let's go, let's oh.
Speaker 2: This is all occurring as part of an explosion of
Speaker 2: intentional and utopian communities around the time, and of those,
Speaker 2: Moral House is not among the most toxic. This is
Speaker 2: like on the low end of bad for what things
Speaker 2: you might call cults in this period of time, although
Speaker 2: it's still pretty bad.
Speaker 3: It's bad, and it's also corny. It's makes it.
Speaker 2: Cults always are in religion, always is, folks, and that
Speaker 2: mean it can't be an important part of your life.
Speaker 2: Part of the real adore is an understanding that to
Speaker 2: be happy you have to do embarrassing things. Right, But
Speaker 2: that's it, folks. Sorry, you can't be cool once you're
Speaker 2: no longer like nineteen give up. So Morehouse sells introductory
Speaker 2: courses and these are all called the courses they sell,
Speaker 2: like if you sign up and pay, it's called the
Speaker 2: Mark group and people are told they're called Marks. You're
Speaker 2: being told that. They're jokingly saying, like you are Marx
Speaker 2: and we are like hustling you, right, Like that's very
Speaker 2: open and they're open about them, like we're hustling you,
Speaker 2: but you'll get something out of it, right, Like we'll
Speaker 2: get your money and you'll learn how to have more
Speaker 2: better sex. Right. So that's that's the way they're kind
Speaker 2: of advertising themselves. KQED there's an article. Sorry, I found
Speaker 2: an article on KQED News's website. Quote. One notorious Moorhouse
Speaker 2: event was a public demonstration in nineteen seventy six of
Speaker 2: what the group claimed was a woman having a three
Speaker 2: hour orgasm and took advantage of California's loose post secondary
Speaker 2: education standards to turn the La Fayette Commune into more University,
Speaker 2: which offered PhDs in the humanities and sensuality and conducted
Speaker 2: what the organization said was sexual research. In nineteen ninety two,
Speaker 2: the San Francisco Chronicle reported that the courses cost as
Speaker 2: much as sixteen eight hundred dollars. Oh my god, So
Speaker 2: this is that KQED article came out after like some
Speaker 2: lawsuits around this group, and there's a lot of negative
Speaker 2: reporting that hits like come like the eighties and nineties
Speaker 2: and stuff. Broncos over the years sues several newspapers for libel.
Speaker 2: Those lawsuits all fail, but they make public some fascinating
Speaker 2: details about how the group works during discovery, like that
Speaker 2: they're more Universities Advanced Sexuality class, conducted research on quote engorgement, lubrication,
Speaker 2: seminal secretion, and that one purpose of the class was
Speaker 2: to make friends with another crotch. So they're also gross
Speaker 2: and corny.
Speaker 3: It's starting to sound like a disgusting prison experiment. It is.
Speaker 2: It is pretty gross, like they're pretty gross about the wording,
Speaker 2: but also they're hitting like a bomb in a culture
Speaker 2: of like men who have don't know that you can
Speaker 2: like actually please your partner that like, like that's something
Speaker 2: that sex can have. So the fact that a guy
Speaker 2: is being like no, actually, in a very clinical setting,
Speaker 2: you can just learn how to like manipulate a clitterists, right,
Speaker 2: Like you can just take that class and there are
Speaker 2: dudes who are willing to pay money for that. It's
Speaker 2: this it's a business, right, and part because people can't
Speaker 2: talk about sex and they can't be educated about it
Speaker 2: really in this period of time very well, so there's
Speaker 2: a there's a hunger for this kind of thing. And
Speaker 2: you know, what's what's going on kind of within the
Speaker 2: cult's internal messaging is that the increasing scientific consensus on
Speaker 2: sex and pleasure is being twisted to argue kind of
Speaker 2: the same thing the Greeks had argued. Right, this is
Speaker 2: set up is very we're trying to you know, make
Speaker 2: men better and make you all have better sex and
Speaker 2: make women make sure women have a better time. But
Speaker 2: a big part of the scientific theories they come up
Speaker 2: up with about sex and orgasms is that women don't
Speaker 2: just enjoy sex more than men, they're insatiable and so
Speaker 2: there's nothing wrong with treating them like sexual beings, whether
Speaker 2: or not they want that. Right, it's the same conclusion,
Speaker 2: right two thousand something years later, it's it's pretty wild
Speaker 2: when you lay it out like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and now they're like printing money doing it.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, they buy a big commune.
Speaker 3: Very curious about who's who is teaching these classes and
Speaker 3: what the gender split is there. It's it's so true
Speaker 3: because it's like that on its face, you know, maybe
Speaker 3: there's elements to it that are positive and like are
Speaker 3: speaking to like how puritanical the US wasn't is about
Speaker 3: sex and wanting you know, their partners to have pleasure,
Speaker 3: But there is this element of like the profit, like
Speaker 3: profiting off of it is one thing, and it's also
Speaker 3: just like it just feels like a stealing of narrative too,
Speaker 3: of like not only do I want to be able
Speaker 3: to like manipulate a clitterist and make make someone come,
Speaker 3: I want to be able to like brag about it
Speaker 3: and have a graduate degree in dere So yucky and
Speaker 3: just feels like still asserting yourself the you know.
Speaker 2: I'm imagining like a fucking seventies dude with a huge
Speaker 2: mustache and like a bed but behind it is like
Speaker 2: it's like the wall of a doctor's office with his
Speaker 2: degrees and sex exactly exactly, Yeah, Vix. Whole thing was
Speaker 2: in fact aping some really lazy interpretations of like feminism
Speaker 2: and like kind of modern sex science and twisting those
Speaker 2: to his own ends. For one, he agreed that women
Speaker 2: shouldn't be expected to wear makeup or shave their body hair,
Speaker 2: so he banned them from doing those things when they
Speaker 2: lived in the Moorhouse cold compound.
Speaker 3: Oh so traslick so close.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, he traveled his properties, usually in a golf
Speaker 2: cart because he hated walking. He was waited on by
Speaker 2: men and women, and the women were made to wear
Speaker 2: French made uniforms. This service was called mating. When asked
Speaker 2: why he did this, he answered sexual liberation. People had
Speaker 2: very different experiences with the Moorhouses. Again, most folks are
Speaker 2: not joining the cult. They're taking some classes, right, but
Speaker 2: there are people who like live there, and over the
Speaker 2: years they start they build separate moorhouses right where like
Speaker 2: they're all over the country and they're selling courses and
Speaker 2: people are living there and having like compulsory sex, right
Speaker 2: because they're kind of told you have to constantly be
Speaker 2: having sex. There's like quotas and stuff, and Vic keeps
Speaker 2: a strict in and out list of his followers and
Speaker 2: he'll encourage them to exchange sex with each other in
Speaker 2: order to improve their standings per huit.
Speaker 3: Quickly does this like escalate.
Speaker 2: Ten years or so? I think something like that, you know,
Speaker 2: I mean it lasts longer than that, but it's over
Speaker 2: like the first decade. I think that, like all this
Speaker 2: is slotting into place as Hewitt rights, people were assigned
Speaker 2: job shifts as technicians, and their only duty was to
Speaker 2: fill a certain weekly quota of tricks or sexual service encounters.
Speaker 2: The technicians would look within the community for customers to
Speaker 2: have sex with that day, and they would take payment
Speaker 2: using the group's internal paper currency. Residents were screened for
Speaker 2: STDs and forbidden from sex outside the group. Vic was
Speaker 2: criticized during his life, but the griff never exploded. In
Speaker 2: some form of this community exists today. As one former
Speaker 2: teacher later said, the institute is a good scam. We
Speaker 2: call ourselves hustlers and other people marks. Victor hustles their
Speaker 2: asses and their souls. He takes their dough to feed himself,
Speaker 2: but he sees to it that they win two right now.
Speaker 2: Whether or not that's true, it's something different. People have
Speaker 2: very different tanks on.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't say certainly. Not everyone is winning.
Speaker 2: Not everybody. No, but the Morehouse Institute is mostly relevant
Speaker 2: to our story because if you not, like in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety two, that's when they had, like the Warris Institute
Speaker 2: has one of their big legal spats and they get
Speaker 2: a bunch of bad press and one of Vic's students,
Speaker 2: a guy named r. J. Testerman, leaves the group to
Speaker 2: found his own orgasm cult, the Welcomed Consensus, which our
Speaker 2: friend Nicole is going to join in nineteen I think
Speaker 2: ninety seven in the late nineties.
Speaker 4: Welcomed Consensus.
Speaker 2: The Welcomed Consensus. What an upsetting name.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't like that.
Speaker 4: I like it, honey, I don't like that at all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you have any problems, it's actually answered by
Speaker 3: the name of the organization.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So let's go back to the sign, just having the sign.
Speaker 2: Sign Jamie, you got anything to plug before we write
Speaker 2: out for a day, before we get back to orgasm cults.
Speaker 3: Before yeah, before we cool off, you can listen to
Speaker 3: the Bechdel Cast. We're having our ten year anniversary soon,
Speaker 3: which is nuts. We you can listen to be the
Speaker 3: End House. I have a book that'll be available for
Speaker 3: pre sale sometime in the summer. I'll let you know
Speaker 3: check Instagram. Jamie Christ Superstar.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, yep. All right, everybody, Uh, this has been
Speaker 2: the episode. We'll be back with more of us having
Speaker 2: to say it uncomfortable phrases to read in a broadcast,
Speaker 2: like listoral stimulation that nobody wants to sit and read
Speaker 2: off a script that's not anybody's ideal day.
Speaker 3: I don't know. I think we all had a nice time.
Speaker 3: Part one is always the fun one.
Speaker 2: Part one is the fun. It's because I've always been
Speaker 2: a pretty like sex positive guy, and by the end
Speaker 2: of like the research for this, I was like, stop
Speaker 2: fucking stop fucking you. People are doing it wrong. Stop
Speaker 2: stop doing drugs. You're doing that wrong too, get a job,
Speaker 2: all right, We're done.
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