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Speaker 1: It was just another high profile soup protest with climate

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Speaker 1: protesters throwing soup at the Mona Lisa in France, and

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Speaker 1: to be clear, throwing soup at the plexiglass protecting the

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Speaker 1: Mona Lisa. The painting was not harmed. It did spark

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Speaker 1: yet another round of discourse though, about whether these tactics work,

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Speaker 1: or whether climate activists are being too radical, or whether

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Speaker 1: they're just being annoying and making everyone hate them and

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Speaker 1: their cause, all of which makes it an excellent time

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Speaker 1: to talk to social scientist Dana R. Fischer about her

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Speaker 1: research over the past several years on the climate movement

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Speaker 1: and her book which brings all that research together. It's

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Speaker 1: called Saving Ourselves and it comes out today. It's all

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Speaker 1: about the climate movement, what tactics have and haven't worked

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Speaker 1: for it, and where it's headed in the years ahead.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Drilled the Real Free Speech Threat. I'm

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Speaker 1: Amy Westervelt After the break a conversation with Dana Fisher.

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Speaker 2: Hi. I'm Dana R.

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Speaker 3: Fisher.

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Speaker 2: I am the director of the Center for Environment, Community

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Speaker 2: and Equity and a professor at the School of International

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Speaker 2: Service at American University.

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Speaker 3: Which is a mouthful.

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Speaker 2: I'm also the author of Saving Ourselves from Climate Shocks

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Speaker 2: to Climate Action.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so the first thing I want to tell you

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Speaker 1: about my reaction to this book was I was like, ah,

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Speaker 1: it's so nice to read a researched, academic book that's

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Speaker 1: really well written and easy to read.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: It's not easy.

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Speaker 2: I suffered through this. In fact, I think we spoke

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Speaker 2: about it as I was suffering through this. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I started writing the book while I was on this

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Speaker 2: fellowship at the Library of Congress, and you and I

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Speaker 2: spent all this time in the reading room.

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Speaker 3: Trying to figure out the tone.

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Speaker 2: It was a heavy love to try to balance it

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Speaker 2: informed but accessible and not boring.

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Speaker 1: So hopefully, well, I think you succeeded. It's really very

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Speaker 1: readable and clearly well researched, but also very readable. But

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you talk about this in the intro,

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Speaker 1: that this was a departure from how social science is

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Speaker 1: usually conducted, in that you're giving some predictions and some

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Speaker 1: advice on what people might do. And I kind of

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Speaker 1: to have you talk about that a little bit. What

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Speaker 1: is the usual approach to social science and how are

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Speaker 1: you kind of departing from it in this book?

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Speaker 2: Well, sure, so, so I'm a social scientist. I was

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Speaker 2: raised as a sociologist. So normally the way that I've

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Speaker 2: I've done my work since the nineties when I finished.

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Speaker 3: Is that we come up with a theory.

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Speaker 2: We come up with some hypotheses, so those are predictions

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Speaker 2: what we think we're going to find. We go out

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Speaker 2: in the field and we have the collector data. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I do a lot of primary data collection with policymakers

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Speaker 2: and activists.

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Speaker 3: So I go out and I collect data of some sort.

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Speaker 2: I analyze my data, and you know, and basically I say,

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Speaker 2: oh it works, it doesn't work. This is how we

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Speaker 2: need to change our understanding of the world. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, I tweak that and then I go out

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Speaker 2: and collect more data. Right, That's kind of the research process,

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Speaker 2: and that's the way I've been doing my work. And

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Speaker 2: it still has been around connecting to politics and connecting

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Speaker 2: to thinking about political processes. But it hasn't been about

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Speaker 2: telling us what's going to happen next, because we don't know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, no research can do that. In fact, one

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Speaker 2: of the things that has always been an interesting conversation

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Speaker 2: about the IPCC is the way that this modeling work

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Speaker 2: is basically in a lot of ways prescriptive, because it's

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Speaker 2: basically taking historical patterns and then using them to predict

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Speaker 2: what's going to happen in the future.

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Speaker 3: And so I kind of use the similar idea to that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't do quantitative modeling per se, at

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Speaker 2: least not in the work that I present here. But

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Speaker 2: what I did instead is I basically take all of

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Speaker 2: the findings from having studied climate policy making through the

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Speaker 2: US Congress since the nineties, right, so since we've been

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Speaker 2: trying to get some sort of bill through both Houses

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Speaker 2: of Congress, presidential efforts to try to address climate change,

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Speaker 2: as well as the ways that multiple actors in the

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Speaker 2: United States have responded, including particularly activists, and looking at

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Speaker 2: all of them and how they've responded over the years,

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Speaker 2: I've written many many papers. I wrote a section for

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Speaker 2: the recent IPCC assessment for Working Group three, and I

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Speaker 2: took all of that and basically spun it around a

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Speaker 2: little bit to think through, Okay, so we see very

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Speaker 2: clear patterns here, So how can we predict what's coming

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Speaker 2: next given the patterns? And I wrote the final chapter

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Speaker 2: specifically to that and to make some suggestions rather than

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Speaker 2: the way that I've done my previous books, where even

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Speaker 2: the books that were written for trade audience, you know,

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Speaker 2: everyday people, in those cases I usually would end with

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Speaker 2: kind of end theoretically and in the research world, this

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Speaker 2: is what we need to start thinking about. One of

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Speaker 2: my big conclusions is that I don't know that we

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Speaker 2: need to be thinking anymore. What I think we need

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Speaker 2: to be doing now is acting. And the climate crisis

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Speaker 2: is just it's daunting, but it also we're in a

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Speaker 2: moment where we need to do and stop thinking. And

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Speaker 2: so I wanted to use the expertise and the findings

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Speaker 2: from all of this research over the past twenty five

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Speaker 2: plus years to speak to that.

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Speaker 3: And so that's what I tried to do.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you also talk about lessons learned from the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want you to give away every single thing,

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Speaker 1: because I want people to go and read the book,

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Speaker 1: but I was hoping you could talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: about what your takeaway from the pandemic was in terms

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Speaker 1: of seeing you know, there was so much conversation about

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Speaker 1: what climate could learn from the mobilism and you know,

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Speaker 1: in the in the aftermath of COVID nineteen and yeah,

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Speaker 1: i'd love to have you sort of give a little

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Speaker 1: bit of an overview of your tation.

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Speaker 3: Sure, I mean, you know, it's funny.

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Speaker 2: So the book actually started out as this piece that

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Speaker 2: I was asked to write for Climate Action, which is

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Speaker 2: a nature journal, but it's now I guess where most

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Speaker 2: of the social science and policymaking stuff goes for the

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Speaker 2: nature journals around climate. They actually asked me if I

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Speaker 2: would write something, and I wanted to take this theory

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Speaker 2: of anthroshift, which Andrew Jorgensen and I wrote in a

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Speaker 2: journal closed sociological theory, which means nobody reads it except

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Speaker 2: for a very small number of people, and I wanted

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Speaker 2: to apply it to the climate crisis.

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Speaker 3: And so I wrote a piece.

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Speaker 2: Called Anthrowshift in a Warming World, and in it, basically

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Speaker 2: I took the lessons learned from COVID and I build

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Speaker 2: on that in the book. And what I basically look

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Speaker 2: at is the way that the world mobilized. You know,

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Speaker 2: some Clay say, and some people did say they moved

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Speaker 2: mobilized quickly, except that it actually took a while for

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Speaker 2: people to really lock down. And I don't know how

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Speaker 2: much you remember of like I guess it was the

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Speaker 2: early days of twenty twenty, when we were hearing these

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Speaker 2: murmurs of this disease in Asia, and then there were

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Speaker 2: those videos that went live on social media of people

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Speaker 2: who were in lockdowns in Italy.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you remember these.

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Speaker 1: I totally remember them. Yeah, I mean, so it happens

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Speaker 1: to me.

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Speaker 2: That I was teaching my environmental sociology class at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I have a whole section on risk where we

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Speaker 2: spend a bunch of time on reflexive modernization in the

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Speaker 2: risk society, which is one of my favorite social theories

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Speaker 2: from Ulrich Beck that nobody reads anymore, and so we're

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Speaker 2: reading it, and I like, get obsessed with this disease

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Speaker 2: because it's a wonderful example of a risk pivot and

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Speaker 2: the way that this universal sense of risk and people

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Speaker 2: feel worrying about what's coming can actually motivate people to

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Speaker 2: take action. And so every class I had, I did

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Speaker 2: like a COVID update, and I had a friend and

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Speaker 2: colleague of mine in Japan tell me they shut down

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Speaker 2: the schools. And then there was these Italy videos, and

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Speaker 2: so I was showing them to my class and I

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Speaker 2: was like, you guys, know, we may.

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Speaker 3: Not see each other again.

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Speaker 2: I mean, actually, I didn't think that we were going

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Speaker 2: to shut down for as long as we did, but

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Speaker 2: I And it was funny because at a certain point

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Speaker 2: my husband said to me, He's like, we are not

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Speaker 2: discussing this anymore at the table, because I had gotten

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Speaker 2: obsessed with the daily numbers and what was happening and

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Speaker 2: what was coming.

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Speaker 3: And so I saw it coming.

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Speaker 2: But then the world did shut down and most people

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Speaker 2: hit in the houses, schools, clothes, borders shut and Greta

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Speaker 2: Timberg went on and made a big statement of saying,

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Speaker 2: this shows what can happen when people recognize a crisis

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Speaker 2: and respond to a crisis.

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Speaker 3: At the level needed.

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Speaker 2: And so everybody all over was like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: look this is a great lesson for how climate and

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Speaker 2: climate policy making can happen. So I use this, you know,

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Speaker 2: the way that the world responded to think through how

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Speaker 2: much this could be what we need to address the

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Speaker 2: climate crisis.

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Speaker 3: The problem is that as the COVID pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Wore on, some people decided that the risk wasn't worth

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Speaker 2: their hiding inside. Some people got pissed off with the

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Speaker 2: government telling them that they couldn't go out, that they

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Speaker 2: had to wear masks, people got vaccinated or had the

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Speaker 2: disease and say it wasn't that bad and decided that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we shouldn't worry about people who are most

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Speaker 2: at risk because they wanted to have more freedom. And

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Speaker 2: the world opened up. I mean it slowly opened up,

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Speaker 2: and then it opened up completely, even though we're living

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Speaker 2: through another wave of the pandemic. I just had COVID

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Speaker 2: a week ago, So it's interesting. But the world turned

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Speaker 2: back and we ended up back at our business as usual.

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Speaker 2: And it's interesting when thinking about this and comparing it

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Speaker 2: to the climate crisis. I mean, first of all, it

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Speaker 2: helps us understand the level of risk and the intensity

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Speaker 2: and personal feeling of risk that you must have to

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Speaker 2: make substantial personal change and for you to support social

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Speaker 2: change on the level what we really need to address

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Speaker 2: the climate crisis. In the paper they wrote about this,

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Speaker 2: I talk about how it's really interesting is there were

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Speaker 2: all these unattended climate consequences in terms of reductions in

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Speaker 2: greenhouse gas emissions, right because the world shut down initially,

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Speaker 2: right had a huge bounce back, and we're way back

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Speaker 2: above that trajectory now.

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Speaker 3: So the world.

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Speaker 2: Shifted right back. And one of the things that's part

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Speaker 2: of the theory. And I won't get into the weeds

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Speaker 2: on this one because most people's eyes will glaze over.

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Speaker 2: But one of the things about the theory is that

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Speaker 2: when we talk about this idea of answer shift and

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Speaker 2: that is the way that society can reorient itself in

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Speaker 2: the face of a dire sense of risk, is that

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Speaker 2: it's multidirectional, which means that the world can change like

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Speaker 2: we saw with COVID, but.

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Speaker 3: It can shift backwards.

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Speaker 2: We're not on a one way street towards saving the

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Speaker 2: world or destroying the world.

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Speaker 3: We can go back and forth.

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Speaker 2: And there are lots of historical examples of this, and

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Speaker 2: I think that's one of the problems with a lot

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Speaker 2: of social theory is it assumes that we're always going

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Speaker 2: in one direction, but we just don't always go in

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Speaker 2: one direction. And so with the pandemic, it basically helped

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Speaker 2: me think through how bad things really have to get

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Speaker 2: to address the climate crisis. And it's even worse with

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Speaker 2: the climate crisis in a lot of ways, because first

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Speaker 2: of all, the threat of disease is know is extremely.

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Speaker 1: Feels more immediate to people, right.

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Speaker 2: It feels more immediate, and people can understand it better, right, right.

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Speaker 2: But in addition to that, there are not all these

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Speaker 2: we're going to we'll call them vested interests today that

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Speaker 2: are pushing back hard, right, Like there wasn't a group

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Speaker 2: of like economically strong and privileged actors who were like, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: keep the world open, because everybody was terrified and.

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Speaker 1: It was very like it was nothing like what the

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Speaker 1: it was. Also fuel industry is exactly.

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Speaker 2: So we have now this huge pushback, and we have

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Speaker 2: pushback in terms of pushback from the economic interests, from

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Speaker 2: the ways these economic interests have bought and paid for

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Speaker 2: many political interests and political representatives, as well as all

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Speaker 2: of the you know, and you've done all this work

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Speaker 2: on this, and the way the PR machine has helped

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Speaker 2: to confuse individuals so they don't even understand what's going on,

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Speaker 2: and so it's just harder. And so in the end,

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Speaker 2: by looking at the pandemic and comparing it, it just

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Speaker 2: tells us how big and how bad things have to

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Speaker 2: get before we could see this kind of mobilization happening,

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Speaker 2: this kind of social change happening, because it's just so

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Speaker 2: much change that's needed. Right.

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Speaker 1: You talk about this in the book as well. The

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Speaker 1: lessons that we can learn from social change research and

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Speaker 1: from civil rights movements and all of those things. But

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Speaker 1: then also there are lots of things that make the

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Speaker 1: climate issue somewhat unique. Like I just was thinking the

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Speaker 1: other day about how while of course every civil rights

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Speaker 1: fight feels urgent, there's this external urgency here that doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily exist in other realms.

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Speaker 2: I mean that we're going to destroy ourselves. I mean,

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Speaker 2: and the world will become compleally uninhabitable. That yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: These climate shocks that you mentioned in the book, there

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Speaker 1: are this like back and forth on Blue Sky where

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Speaker 1: people were, of course, because there was yet another soup

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Speaker 1: on a painting protest people that debate again and someone

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Speaker 1: this was like, I don't understand why anyone uses these tactics,

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Speaker 1: because they had gone they've never worked for any cause

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Speaker 1: ever in history. And I was like, that is actually

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Speaker 1: just totally untrue.

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Speaker 2: Wow, I completely missed that. I certainly would have chimed

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Speaker 2: in there.

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Speaker 1: But it was interesting because I was like, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: a like there's not a ton of agreement around what

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Speaker 1: worked would mean in this scenario. Everybody has different ideas

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Speaker 1: about that.

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Speaker 2: You know, there was I mean there was an interesting

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Speaker 2: debate that I did.

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Speaker 3: I did get.

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Speaker 2: Tagged in on about you know, whether or not it's

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Speaker 2: these tactics are successful. I ended up pushing back and

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Speaker 2: you know all those stuff that I've written about this

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Speaker 2: and my piece with Oscar and Colin and Nature recently

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Speaker 2: that specifically looks at the outcomes of this kind of

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Speaker 2: activism and the broadening radical flank of the climate movement.

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Speaker 2: But what I will say is just everybody has a

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Speaker 2: different definition of success, and the big the important thing

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Speaker 2: to note here is that it's a question of what

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Speaker 2: the activists are trying to achieve. And I thought it

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Speaker 2: was great because Oscar posted in response to this, this

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Speaker 2: outraged climate person about you know, how dare they attack

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Speaker 2: the Mona Lisa. He responded by saying, you know, actually

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Speaker 2: look at the front page of the Washington Post right now.

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Speaker 2: It has the video and then it has the demands

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Speaker 2: of this group on the front page of the front

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Speaker 2: website page of the Washington Post.

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Speaker 1: That's it really cool.

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Speaker 2: That's the goal. As I talk about in the book,

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Speaker 2: these are shockers. Their whole goal is to get media attention,

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Speaker 2: to raise public awareness about an issue. It's not to

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Speaker 2: change hearts and minds. It's not to mobilize people who

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Speaker 2: disagree with them, it's not to make people happy. It

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Speaker 2: is intentionally to make people uncomfortable. The thing that I

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Speaker 2: think is that the people don't get is that, like,

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Speaker 2: as uncomfortable as you might get that somebody threw some

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Speaker 2: soup on the coding over the Mona Lisa.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: The deal about these kinds of tactical innovations, which is

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Speaker 2: what we call them in tactical diffusions is what we

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Speaker 2: call them in the social science world, is that everybody

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Speaker 2: knows I mean, and the activists notice that you have

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Speaker 2: to keep getting more outrageous to get the media coverage

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Speaker 2: because at a certain point, everybody's going to be like,

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Speaker 2: once you hit the Mona Lisa, I mean, where do

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Speaker 2: you go from there?

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Speaker 3: The Sistine Chapel.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people are already saying, okay, how many of

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Speaker 1: these paint protests are we going to?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's right, I mean, how much food is it?

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Speaker 2: It's very nice, it's very benign, but you know, it's

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Speaker 2: going to have to innovate and and it also is

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Speaker 2: likely to radicalize because people are going to start to

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Speaker 2: think it's blase, and that's where things get they get spicy.

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Speaker 2: Some people use the word interesting, and it depends what

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Speaker 2: they're doing, and it is going to be divisive. Actually,

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Speaker 2: I have a colleague who wrote this great book recently

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Speaker 2: called The Struggle for the People's King, and she specifically

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Speaker 2: wrote about the way that Martin Luther King Junior's memory

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Speaker 2: has become sanitized and basically a lot of the grit

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Speaker 2: has been taken out to make him a national hero,

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Speaker 2: and how that takes away a lot of what was

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Speaker 2: part of the movement and the way the movement played

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Speaker 2: out during his period of his leadership before he was murdered.

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Speaker 2: And it's really interesting to look at it because this,

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Speaker 2: you know, that means that all of these activists who

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Speaker 2: are or all of these other people who are like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, well, look at the civil rights movement.

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Speaker 2: It was so everybody loved the civil rights movement.

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Speaker 3: That's just not true.

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Speaker 2: People were so annoyed, and people were complaining, and activists

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Speaker 2: were getting the shit beaten out of them by white

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Speaker 2: supremacists as well as law enforcement right and in some ways,

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Speaker 2: as I talk about in the book, that's part of

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Speaker 2: why the civil rights movement was able to get so

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Speaker 2: much support and be able to push for the types

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Speaker 2: of changes that it did eventually achieve, which is is

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Speaker 2: interesting in terms of the role that violence played there.

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Speaker 2: But I think it's really important that we cannot see

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Speaker 2: that if we just look at the sanitized version of

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Speaker 2: MLK Junior and the role that civil rights movement played

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Speaker 2: in history, right, because it did involve conflict, and it

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Speaker 2: was not popular, and it involved a law of disruption

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Speaker 2: that people didn't like, and then there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of nasty nastiness in terms of the way that many

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Speaker 2: Americans responded.

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Speaker 1: Historically, we don't tend to have a good sense of

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Speaker 1: what these movements have accomplished, or you know, how effective

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Speaker 1: or not they've been until several years later. Like in

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Speaker 1: the moment, they're annoying to everyone, that's the whole point,

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Speaker 1: and like, you know, I'm like, yeah, okay, you're annoyed

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Speaker 1: that you know, great, But you being annoyed is not

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Speaker 1: indicative of whether or not this protest or this vein

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Speaker 1: of protests has worked. We're not really going to know

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Speaker 1: for a while, which also becomes problematic with climate because

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Speaker 1: it feels so urgent and time limited.

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Speaker 2: I mean. The other response could also be that while

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Speaker 2: you're annoyed if you're willing to talk about this, and

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Speaker 2: you're willing to talk about how this is not the

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Speaker 2: tactic I would support. But of course I support climate action.

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Speaker 2: That is exactly the point, because that's what the radical

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Speaker 2: flank does. It basically pulls support towards the more moderate

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Speaker 2: actors in the movement. And that's what you know, It's

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Speaker 2: all part of this, this beautiful dance towards social change,

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Speaker 2: which is yes, so very needed. And I didn't talk

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Speaker 2: about answer shift at all, which was your question do

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Speaker 2: you want to ask?

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Speaker 1: Actually, I want to help you define anthro shift a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and it's okay for it to be a

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Speaker 1: little bit in the weeds.

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Speaker 2: So an answer shift, I mean, answer shift is basically

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Speaker 2: it's a It's a social theory that combines components of

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Speaker 2: a number of different theories that talk about the relationship

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Speaker 2: between society and the environment. And what it basically posits

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Speaker 2: is that an anthwership will occur when there's a perceived

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Speaker 2: risk that reaches a critical threshold and leads people to

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Speaker 2: alter their behaviors. It compels social entities to respond and

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Speaker 2: mitigate the risk. And the most important components of an

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Speaker 2: answer shift are one that there is this risk that

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Speaker 2: motivates individuals and actors to push for change, but also

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Speaker 2: that it can move in multiple directions. But the big

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Speaker 2: point that I make in the book when build off

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Speaker 2: of the experience of the COVID pandemic to talk about it,

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Speaker 2: is that to reach the tipping point, things have to

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Speaker 2: be pretty bad. And when I say bad, they could

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Speaker 2: be that people are just really really worried about getting

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Speaker 2: sick and dying. Take for example, the COVID pandemic. Or

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Speaker 2: it can be about watching the water rise and you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe knowing that you don't have any home insurance will

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Speaker 2: motivate change. But you know, there's not a lot of

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Speaker 2: evidence to show that that is a big enough sense

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Speaker 2: of risk to get people to change.

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Speaker 3: But it all builds.

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Speaker 2: It builds also off of this research that talks about

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Speaker 2: windows of opportunity that open up after disaster. And so

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Speaker 2: when we think about risk, there are lots of different

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Speaker 2: ways we can think about risk I talk about in

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Speaker 2: the book and when we wrote the theory, but one

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Speaker 2: of the ones that I think is the most useful

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Speaker 2: is natural disasters. And I mean we can think about

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Speaker 2: them and you know, these various climate shocks, which are

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Speaker 2: the deviations from the normal weather patterns and normal patterns

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Speaker 2: that are exacerbated by climate change. And you know that

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Speaker 2: it comes in the form of drought that leads to wildfire,

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Speaker 2: that comes in the form of extreme weather, extreme heat,

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Speaker 2: extreme storms, flooding cyclones. I mean, look at the news

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Speaker 2: today and you can see many of them taking place

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 3: But the question is how much of.

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Speaker 2: That is needed to push for the type of mass

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Speaker 2: pressure that will get us to get the policy makers

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Speaker 2: to make the social change.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, then, and one of the chapters I like

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Speaker 1: how you do this in the book, where you have

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Speaker 1: a chapter about individual action and then a chapter about

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Speaker 1: collective action, in part because I feel like in this

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Speaker 1: conversation that's dominated climate spaces for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: that tries to sort of pit those two things against

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Speaker 1: each other. Engaging in tests and activism and even like

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Speaker 1: political organizing is almost never what people talk about when

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Speaker 1: they talk about individual action. It's usually like what you buy. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to have you talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: your view of that conversation in general and how you'd

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Speaker 1: like to see people think about where they plug in.

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Speaker 2: So, first of all, I mean, I am not a

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Speaker 2: person who says that we shouldn't be trying to, you know,

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Speaker 2: make changes in our everyday lives. And I try to

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Speaker 2: lift up some of my favorite work in that area,

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Speaker 2: because there's been some really interesting work that kind of

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Speaker 2: models and thinks through how individual actions can have substantial

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Speaker 2: effects on, you know, overall carbon consumption and contributions to

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Speaker 2: greenhouse gases, et cetera, and so forth. So I think

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Speaker 2: that's very important that all being said, we also know,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I talk about some of the work

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Speaker 2: you've done, but we know that individual actions by themselves

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Speaker 2: will be absolutely not enough to get us where we

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Speaker 2: need to go with the climate crisis, because we need

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Speaker 2: the systemic change. And I talked through the ways that

443
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:09,640
Speaker 2: people have modeled this to understand that, and particularly thinking

444
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:12,399
Speaker 2: about how there was that MIT class that spent the

445
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,719
Speaker 2: semester trying to model the carbon consumption of everyday people,

446
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 2: and they looked and actually modeled the consumption of a

447
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,679
Speaker 2: homeless person. And when they did that, they found that

448
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 2: even a homeless person who had neither home nor vehicle

449
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 2: but lived in a shelter was unable to get their

450
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,760
Speaker 2: carbon consumption down to the level of a developing country

451
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 2: if they were in the United States. It's just a

452
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: wake up call in a lot of ways for me

453
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 2: about the degree to which we cannot just say, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

454
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 2: we'll take the burden on and we'll we'll do our

455
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: individual things in our houses, because that's just not going

456
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 2: to do it. And you can't just buy your way

457
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 2: out of the climate crisis. There needs to be a

458
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: real change. And so when I was writing the book

459
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 2: I started, I didn't realize that I was going to

460
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 2: end up with this whole discussion about individual action. But

461
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: it's interesting because as I was doing the work that

462
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,359
Speaker 2: led to led up to the book, I end up

463
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 2: having conversations with activists a number of different times about

464
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: some of the research that i'd done when I was

465
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: working on the IPCC, and I said, you know, would

466
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 2: be really cool is in addition to your doing your activism,

467
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: it'd be so cool if you guys committed to doing

468
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 2: you know, X, Y, and Z individual actions so we

469
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: could actually track how much carbon you've saved, but how

470
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 2: much carbon you're still using, and you know, as a

471
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: good argument for why the you know, all of the

472
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: things you're calling for is so important, and I couldn't

473
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: get any activists willing to commit to doing that with

474
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: me so that we had some numbers, because you know,

475
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: having those numbers is so valuable and it tells a

476
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 2: really great story. The other thing I can do is

477
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 2: I can join in collectives and then that's the question

478
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: about where we can really get build power. And the

479
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: book is all about understanding where the most likely points

480
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: of opportunity are as the crisis worsens, and that's where

481
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 2: collective action absolutely plays a role.

482
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:00,679
Speaker 3: Now does it?

483
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: Is it going to end up looking like soup being

484
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: thrown on a couple of you know, plexiglass covered paintings,

485
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,639
Speaker 2: So I'm sure the Mona liase is covered with like

486
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: gold glass or something fancy not yeah, you know, but

487
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: basically no, it's not going to look like throwing soup.

488
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: But is throwing suit going to help us pay, you know, pay,

489
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: get people to pay more attention, more people to think

490
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: about these problems. Sure, and it's going to evolve, and

491
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,639
Speaker 2: it's going to get grittier and probably less palatable for

492
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: many editors and people who want to write about stuff

493
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 2: on social media, because that's how it does work, that's

494
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: how they evolve.

495
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 3: And that's how.

496
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: They they eventually achieve some of their goals.

497
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: I know we've talked about this before, but I'd love

498
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 1: to have you to find for people what the radical

499
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: flank is and how it's worked in the past, and

500
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: how climate folks are thinking about about using that dynamic

501
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: to push for real action here.

502
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 2: Sure, okay. So a radical flank is a faction of

503
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: a social movement that spins off and chooses to employ

504
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: more confrontational tactics to achieve its goals. Radical flanks usually

505
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: form when a movement's been around for a while and

506
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: has not gotten much success. Take for example, the incremental

507
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: successes that we've had in the United States around climate which,

508
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: while progress, are nowhere near where we need to be

509
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 2: if we want to actually, you know, start to reduce

510
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: carbon emissions and address climate crisis in a meaningful way.

511
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 2: And when I say meaningfully, I mean in a way

512
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 2: that actually will try to you know, cap global warming

513
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: in some level that's sustainable and not going to lead

514
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: to a bunch of tipping points that will cause devastation.

515
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 2: Let's say it that way. So radical flanks, I mean

516
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: radical flanks have formed in most of the social movements

517
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 2: that you can think of in the you know, in

518
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: the past some of the most notable or during the

519
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 2: Civil Rights movement or during women's suffrage, and these happened

520
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 2: all over the world. But in the climate movement, and

521
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 2: what's also worth noting here is that the radical flank.

522
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: I'm using my air quotes, which you can't see because

523
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: it's a podcast, but they take radical actions in comparison

524
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 2: to what the mainstream movement is doing at the time. Right, So,

525
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: the original radical flank of the Civil rights movement was

526
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,640
Speaker 2: doing sit ins. Citians are peaceful, non violent people would

527
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: sit in places right and refuse to move, but those

528
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 2: were confrontational and they were you know, illegal, and that

529
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 2: made it a radical flank. It got more gritty and

530
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 2: more aggressive from there. But that's how it started. In

531
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: the climate movement, the radical flank, which is groups that

532
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: have started to say they need to do more than

533
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: just legally permitted stuff and advocacy and letter writing and

534
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: you know, maybe doing some lobbying. Those have started to

535
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: look a lot like throwing food, throwing paint, disrupting events.

536
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 2: I guess the most recent event in the United States

537
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: is the met Opera in New York City was disrupted

538
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 2: in December, but there's been lots of events disrupted all over.

539
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 2: We have had some sporting events. We had the crazy

540
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 2: Glue episode at the US Open that I talked about

541
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 2: with you and I talked about on TMZ Live, which

542
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: was fun. There's been a lot of slow marching, bird dogging,

543
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: which is getting a lot of tension lately, blocking buildings

544
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: in crazy glue. Right, So those are the ones that

545
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: you probably imagine. You're probably seeing a lot of this,

546
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: like yelling at and interrupting people giving speeches, The blocking

547
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 2: the buildings, the slow marching, and the food probably is

548
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 2: the most common right now. And what I think is

549
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: just worth noting here is as Oscar and Colin I

550
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: write about in Nature magazine, when we look at the

551
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: history of radical flights and other social movements, this is.

552
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 3: Really not very radical.

553
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: I mean, in fact, some activists have written to me

554
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: and been like, why are you calling this radical?

555
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, I know that this isn't radical.

556
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: It's radical in comparison to the mainstream movement, but it's

557
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 2: not radical, not yet. I mean, during the heyday of

558
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: the suffrage movement, buildings were being blown up regularly, right,

559
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 2: I mean and people weren't throwing food at paintings, they

560
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: were slashing paintings.

561
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 3: That's where radical flanks go. Now, what's worth noting here.

562
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: Is that a radical flank, in general, the research shows

563
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: it helps to draw attention to the issue and it

564
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: also helps to gain support for the moderate component of

565
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 2: the movement.

566
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 3: Right.

567
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: So a great example is like Coco during the US

568
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: Open protest. Coco, while she was having to stop playing,

569
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 2: she said to people, she said, well, I don't really

570
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: love this tactic, but I certainly think climate change is

571
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 2: an issue that we should be thinking more about. Right.

572
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 3: But that's exactly the reason these guys are doing it.

573
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 2: So many people may be like, you know, I don't

574
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: like this what these guys are doing, but I do

575
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: care about the issue and I want to take some action.

576
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: I'm not going to just sit here and watch TV anymore.

577
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 2: And that's the point. So there is some people who have,

578
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: you know, argued that the radical flank it can be

579
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: demobilizing and turn people off. And first of all, there's

580
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: not a lot of empirical evidence that that's the case,

581
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 2: except for a couple of very abstract Internet surveys that

582
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: were not conducted well activism was taking place, but were

583
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: more hypotheticals. But in addition to that, you know, I

584
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 2: did collect data at the March to End Fossil Fuels

585
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 2: that took place in September of this past year during

586
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: Climate Week, right before the UN was meeting on Climate change,

587
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: and organizers they were seventy five thousand people in the streets.

588
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 2: I did a random sample of them and surveyed them,

589
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: which is methodology that I used for much of my

590
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 2: research and I've written a lot about.

591
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: Added to the survey a question asking these people who were.

592
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: At a legally permanent protest, so these are people who

593
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: are not necessarily engaging in non violent civil disobedience.

594
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: In fact, I think it was less than a quarter

595
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: of them who said they had in the past year.

596
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: I asked them if they supported organizations that were doing

597
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 2: civil disobedience, including and I listed a bunch of stuff

598
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 2: that the Radical Plank could have been doing, right, and

599
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of the people whom I surveyed said

600
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: they support these groups.

601
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 3: That doesn't mean doing it.

602
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 2: In fact, many of them have not been doing this

603
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: kind of action, but they were supportive of it as

604
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: part of the movement, as part of the repertoire of

605
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: contention that is the climate movement today.

606
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you want to find the shockers and disruptors

607
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: for people? And I had to do this before, but

608
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: just to have it all in one place, I feel

609
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: like it's useful.

610
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: I talked about shockers and disruptors somewhere and I got

611
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: an email from Rose to Abramoff and she's from a

612
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: scientist or rebellion for anybody who doesn't know, and she

613
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: wrote me and she goes, so, I guess.

614
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 3: I'm a shocker than huh.

615
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: Basically, I realized that the radical flank, which has been

616
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 2: growing in terms of the proportion of actions that we've

617
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 2: seen around climate taking place, certainly during the period of

618
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: the Biden administration, has really shifted more towards these kind

619
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: of confrontational tactics, and so I wanted to understand who

620
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 2: was in this radical flank and what kind of work

621
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 2: they were doing. So I went out and I surveyed

622
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: all the people in the groups that had been involved

623
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 2: in this coalitional effort to block the White House correspondence dinner,

624
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: which was also the event that was the birth of

625
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 2: climate defiance. That it's worth noting now since they're getting

626
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 2: a ton of press. And then at the same time,

627
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 2: I also interviewed a whole bunch of leaders and activists

628
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 2: who were involved in engaging in non violent civil disobedience

629
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: around climate change, and it was very clear from the

630
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 2: research that there were two different ways that people were

631
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: engaging in kind of confrontational climate activism, and so I

632
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 2: thought it was valuable to split them into two camps,

633
00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: and I call one group the shockers, and these are

634
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: the activists who are using non violent civil disobedience specifically

635
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 2: to shock the public and to get media attention. And

636
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: the goal there is media attention and to have a

637
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: broader conversation about the climate crisis and to get attention

638
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: for it in the media. And the outcome of success

639
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 2: there that they use is media attention. So, for example,

640
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: if you go to Climate Defiance's web page, you will

641
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: look at all the media coverage they've had. It's been remarkable.

642
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: This week alone, I have done two interviews for mainstream

643
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: media outlets about Climate Defiance. So they're going to continue

644
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: to get that media coverage. And the thing about shockers

645
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: is that they're really focused on this one way of

646
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: doing action, and these are the folks who are throwing

647
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 2: paint and the slow marching and the blueing a lot

648
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 2: of that.

649
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: At the same time, there are also.

650
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 2: The activists I called disruptors, and disruptors are parts of

651
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: the radical flank that are integrating non violent civil disobedience

652
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: into a broader campaign or what we call a repertoire

653
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: of contention, and that means that they'll have moments of

654
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: civil disobedience, moments of activism that is aiming to get

655
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: media attention and aiming to draw more attention to the

656
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: work they're doing, but it's embedded in a broader campaign.

657
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: I mean, a really good example of this is Divest

658
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: Harvard when they storm the Harvardale game and got all

659
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: that attention, but that was part of this broader campaign

660
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: to get alumni and faculty and students to push for

661
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 2: university to divest from fossil fuels or some of the

662
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: work that Third Act has done in their divestment campaign

663
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: to push for big banks to stop investing in fossil

664
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 2: fuel expansion. And so they have done some actions. They

665
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 2: did a really interesting one where they blocked the entrances

666
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 2: of banks around the country and they called it the

667
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: Rocking Chair Rebellion.

668
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 3: Where a lot of these retirees.

669
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 2: Who take and they paint them and then they plunk

670
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: down the rocking chairs in front of the entrance way

671
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 2: and sit there in the rocking chair and refuse to move.

672
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 3: But it's part of this broader campaign.

673
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 2: So the idea is to shine light and focus attention

674
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: on all the other stuff they're doing and why people

675
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: should join their campaign.

676
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 3: So those are the two different camps.

677
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: You've already kind of talked about this a couple of times,

678
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: and I know we've talked about this too, and you

679
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: talked about this in the book too.

680
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: What have you seen.

681
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: Quote unquote working and where do you see this headed?

682
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: And I got how do you define working in terms

683
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: of this question of did this protest work?

684
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: Well, I mean that's the thing that's interesting.

685
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 2: In this moment where we are teetering on the edge

686
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: of the precipice that is the climate crisis, there are

687
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,400
Speaker 2: lots of different ways that movements have worked. I mean,

688
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 2: some movements have worked, and some actions have worked because

689
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: they're getting more attention.

690
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 3: And I think my conclusion is that.

691
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 2: We need this broad and vibrant and diverse ecosystem of

692
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 2: climate activism right now. It's absolutely needed. We need shockers

693
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: and disruptors, and we need everyday people who are not

694
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: comfortable doing any type of civil disobedience to be joining

695
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: in in their own way to help push us towards

696
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: the systemic changes that are needed to stop this crisis,

697
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: or I mean it can't be stopped, but to limit

698
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: it so that we can get to the other side.

699
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: And so one of the things that I think has worked,

700
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 2: and this finding comes from not just research on the

701
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: climate movement, but also the research that I've done on

702
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: previous movements. I mean, so my last book was called

703
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 2: American Resistance, and that was about the resistance to the

704
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,680
Speaker 2: Trump administration its policies, which was this coalition of progressive

705
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 2: groups and movements. I also did a big study of

706
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: the post George Floyd Black Lives Matter protests and looking

707
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 2: at those actions and how they worked or didn't work

708
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 2: through all of them. I mean, I've looked at outcomes

709
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 2: to some degree in terms of social change, and with

710
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 2: the climate crisis, we just see these incremental changes that

711
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: are just not enough. But I mean there are some.

712
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 2: I mean, for example, is a pause on expanding LNG

713
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: exports a success?

714
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 3: Sure?

715
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: Is it enough to stop the climate crisis when we're

716
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: talking about future exports, not the current exports, which were

717
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 2: a number one in the world for and we're projected

718
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 2: to continue to increase our exports already. No, not enough,

719
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: but you know, sure a successful outcome. It's a point

720
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,080
Speaker 2: on the scatterplot. We could say it that way. The

721
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 2: things that I think have been really successful, though, and

722
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 2: some of these examples of incremental successes are part of

723
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: what is needed. We just need a lot more of

724
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 2: it is the ways that activists and movements have been

725
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: creating community and real solidarity. And I think there's some

726
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: really interesting examples recently of the way that climate movement

727
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: has been working to help support labor.

728
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 3: The climate movement was out in.

729
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: Mass to support the post George Floyd Black Lives Matter

730
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: movement during those protests. There were a whole bunch of

731
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: different climate groups that came out in solidarity and marched

732
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: in solidarity and support and help to push for again

733
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 2: the incremental changes that we saw, some of which were

734
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,840
Speaker 2: purely symbolic to address systemic racism in our country.

735
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: But it worked.

736
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 2: It wasn't enough, but it was the beginning, and hopefully

737
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 2: that struggle is going to continue as well.

738
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: Just to sort of wrap up, and you give some

739
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: suggestionquestions for where this might be headed and where it

740
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: should be headed to get us to a place where

741
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: we're actually acting, and for people who are listening and

742
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: are like, Okay, well I want to get more involved.

743
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 1: What should I do? What should I focus on? I

744
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: feel like people ask me this all the time, and

745
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 1: I treat it like being a guidance counselor or something

746
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: where I'm like, well, what are you interested in? What

747
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: are you good at? What's your network?

748
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 2: Like you do?

749
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 3: So?

750
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm going to tell you answer that question.

751
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: Oh and actually I want to end on you defining

752
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: what an apocalyptic optimist is and how other people can kind.

753
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 3: Of get there.

754
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 2: Okay, if you want to get there and join me

755
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 2: in my apocalyptic optimism, Okay, we'll go there next. But

756
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 2: first I'll just say I've been trying very hard to

757
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 2: co opt this term of the all of the above

758
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 2: strategy that the Biden administration and previous administrations have used

759
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 2: around our energy mix to talk about activism. So I

760
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 2: believe strongly that we need an all of the above

761
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 2: way of engaging with and pushing for substantial climate action.

762
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 2: To address the climate crisis, and what that means is

763
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 2: one we need to create community and real solidarity.

764
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 3: And I do believe that.

765
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 2: As much as there's been pushback from some people about

766
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: my saying that social media and engaging with and taking

767
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: advantage of influencers is not a great tactic, I think

768
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 2: that that there is a role there for influencers, for sure,

769
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: But I think that the big place where social change

770
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: is most possible is when you're building it on real community.

771
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,959
Speaker 2: And community involves people in their everyday lives, in where

772
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: they live, work, breaed, where their kids go to school,

773
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 2: making change and taking action together. And part of that

774
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 2: involves cultivating resilience. And here you were talking about how

775
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: you talk to people, My thing would be like, are

776
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 2: you comfortable? Are you comfortable being an activist? What kind

777
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: of activists are you're comfortable with? Are you willing to

778
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 2: get arrested? I mean, but whatever the answer to those questions,

779
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: assuming you care about climate, you know our climate, and

780
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 2: about getting us comfortably as a society to the other

781
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 2: side of the climate crisis, everybody should be thinking about

782
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: how they can cultivate resilience, and that when I say resilience,

783
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 2: I mean social and environmental resilience, right that is making

784
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: our communities capable of handling the climate shocks that are

785
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: coming because we are doing nothing.

786
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 3: To stop them.

787
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 2: So anybody who wants to just say that we should

788
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: just put our heads in the sand and wait, you're

789
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 2: in for like some really sad awakenings that have to

790
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: do with breathing and wildfire smoke and floods and extreme

791
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: weather and extreme heat and all of the social people.

792
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 2: That's going to be related to that in terms of

793
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: people in your communities who are in need of support

794
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,799
Speaker 2: because they become unhoused or because of people having to

795
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: move and relocate and migrate.

796
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:54,280
Speaker 3: And you know, our.

797
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: Country particularly is doing a wonderful job with migration right now.

798
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 3: But so there's so many ways that we can.

799
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: Help to make our communities capable of handling the shocks

800
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 2: that are coming, because they are coming.

801
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: I mean.

802
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: And the last thing for those people who say that

803
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: they're willing to become activists and are willing to get

804
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: you know, get a little spicy. I think that there

805
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 2: is a really important lesson here that I was very

806
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 2: uncomfortable writing about, but I feel like has to be

807
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: written about with regard to the way that the movement

808
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 2: needs to be open to, willing to, and ready to

809
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: capitalize on moral shocks. And when I say moral shocks here,

810
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: I particularly mean violence, and I mean I'm not saying

811
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: that climate activists should get violent, No, I think they

812
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: should stay the course. And I think is wonderful and

813
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 2: beautiful the way that climate activism has continued to be

814
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: non violent so far right and there's been some property destruction,

815
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 2: a lot of paint smearing, but really very very very

816
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: non violent, and I think that should continue, and I

817
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 2: applaud all of the activists and the organizations that have

818
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: been involved in that, particularly as law enforcement has become

819
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: more repressive, and we're going to see that more and

820
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: more in the United States but all over the world.

821
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,399
Speaker 2: And you've talked a lot about that. But the other

822
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 2: thing is that counter movements will rise up and will

823
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 2: rise up to be aggressive against the activists. We saw

824
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 2: it in other movements as they grew and as more

825
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,800
Speaker 2: non violent civil disobedience was used and as actors started

826
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,800
Speaker 2: to feel threatened, those counter movements are very likely to

827
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 2: be violent and to escalate the conflict. And that's a

828
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: place where the activists need to be ready for it.

829
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 2: I know that there's been some accounts from folks from

830
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 2: Climate Defiance about how aggressive security has been when they

831
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 2: try to disrupt political officials events. That's only the beginning,

832
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 2: and it's unfortunate and it's terrible to learn lessons from

833
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,319
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement, but I think that's what we

834
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 2: need to focus on it. We need to be prepared,

835
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: and we need these activists, people who are comfortable with it,

836
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 2: need to understand that that's what's coming and that's where

837
00:41:56,200 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 2: this movement is probably going. So then the last thing,

838
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: are you ready for the apocalyptic optomists?

839
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah?

840
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, So I call myself.

841
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: An apocalyptic optimist, and what that means is that based

842
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 2: on all of the science and I'm not a natural scientist,

843
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: but all of my brothers and sisters in the natural

844
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:20,840
Speaker 2: scientists who have spent so much time modeling out how

845
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 2: their earth and the different systems are going to respond

846
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 2: to the increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases in our atmosphere.

847
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 3: I know that the worst is still to come.

848
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: And I know that from studying policymaking for the past

849
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 2: twenty five years and the insufficient actions that we as

850
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 2: societies have taken to respond.

851
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: I know that it's going to get a lot worse.

852
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 2: So I'm apocalyptic in that I believe that we are

853
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: going to see a lot of destruction and very likely

854
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 2: many lives lost, including many frontline communities that are going.

855
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 3: To be hit.

856
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: They'll be hit the hardest. That's why they call the

857
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 2: frontline communities, right, which includes less privileged folks and communities

858
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: of color, for sure. But I'm also optimistic, So being

859
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,800
Speaker 2: an apocalyptic optimist means that I see that is only

860
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: the pain and suffering of the crisis that is likely

861
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: to mobilize the masses and get us working together enough

862
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: as a movement, as people who work together to achieve

863
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: the goal of getting us to the other side of

864
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: the climate crisis. But I believe one hundred percent in

865
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 2: people power, and I know that we have it in us.

866
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: But as unfair as it seems, the future is up

867
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: to us, and it is not until we and our

868
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: friends and family and neighbors and communities start to push

869
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: back and say that enough is enough, and fossil fuel

870
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 2: companies do not need to make any more money, they

871
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 2: do not need to be subsidized. They need to get

872
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 2: with the program and help us stop this crisis before

873
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,359
Speaker 2: it gets so bad that it's impossible to imagine that

874
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: we could think of states staying stable. I mean, if

875
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,280
Speaker 2: we continue down this road, instability is the most likely outcome,

876
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: and that has been modeled very clearly by political scientists

877
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: about what could come. We need to stop that, but

878
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: we need to do it because nobody's coming to help us.

879
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: And that's why I'm an apocalyptic optimist. A lot of

880
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 2: people don't like that and think it's a cop out,

881
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: but I do. I mean, there's lots of research that

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Speaker 2: talks about social change that's embedded in despair and destruction,

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00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,839
Speaker 2: and basically I believe that's the case. But the optimism

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00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: comes not from my believing that, you know, the state

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00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 2: is going to save us, which it kind of did

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00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: with with COVID, at least it did when it stepped in, right.

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Speaker 2: It's actually that we're going to have to save ourselves,

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Speaker 2: which is the title of my.

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Speaker 1: Book, ah Perfect Build as an original Critical Frequency production.

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Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Martin Saltz Austwick. Our editors are

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00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 1: Sarah Ventry and Allen Brown. This episode was mixed and

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00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: mastered by Peter duff. Song In this episode, is Bird

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00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 1: in the Hand by forenoon. You can access as a

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00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: transcript of the episode and related stories on our website

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00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 1: at drilled dot Media. You can also sign up for

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Speaker 1: our newsletter there. It's a weekly roundup of the top

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Speaker 1: five stories or studies in the climate realm that you

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00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 1: should know about each week. People tell us it helps

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Speaker 1: them stay on top of climate news without feeling overwhelmed.

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Speaker 1: That's it for this time, Thanks for listening, and we'll

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Speaker 1: see you next week.