WEBVTT - What's Happening To Gaza Under Trump: An Update with Dana El-Kurd 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:08.039 All media, Welcome back to It could Happen Here. This 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.840 is a daily news podcast about all of the things 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.080 happening here, which is wherever you happen to be, and 0:00:15.200 --> 0:00:19.320 also the world in general. And today we are going 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.919 back to talk about Gaza, particularly what has happened and 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.960 changed in sort of US policy relating to Gaza, to 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:32.640 what's going to happen as the actual combat operations wind down, 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:38.840 to the Trump administration's so far promises to effectively ethnically 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.800 cleanse the entire area and turn it into some sort 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:45.440 of weird US satellite. And with me today is Donna 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:49.120 el Kurd, An assistant professor of political science, guest on 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:52.800 our episodes about Bibi n Yahoo over It, Behind the Bastards, Danna, 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:55.200 thank you so much for being here with us. How 0:00:55.280 --> 0:00:57.920 are you doing today? I know that's a dumb question. 0:00:57.960 --> 0:00:59.520 I just asked you that at the start of this too. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:03.560 Well, thank you for having me. I think every Palestinian 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:04.839 in the world is not doing great. 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.679 Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, like I said, a dumb question. 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:11.240 The short story of what is happening is that Trump 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.360 made an unprecedented announcement about a week ago on stage 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.920 with Netan Yahoo that Gazo would be that, like the 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.800 Palestinian population would be forced out and not allowed to return, 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:27.520 and it would be turned into effectively American condos, right, Like, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.240 that's essentially I think that's essentially the gist of the 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:33.400 initial meeting, which was met with a degree of chaos 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:36.399 even from Israel, because I don't think anyone entirely knew 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.360 exactly what Trump was going to say when he got 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:41.040 up on that stage, which is pretty normal Trump fashion. 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.200 But yeah, how would you characterize kind of the initial 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:45.760 reaction to that announcement. 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.040 Yeah, so a couple of different audiences for that announcement 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.880 to begin with. For the Israeli side, I mean, what 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:58.440 I'm hearing from analysts and people who follow Israeli politics 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:02.160 is that this has really changed the permission structure for them. 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:02.520 Yeah. 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.320 I think you're right that didn't expect something to this degree, 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.920 But now that it's been said, it's like that is 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.079 the full extent of what we can expect to do, right, 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:15.880 And so I don't think a lot of people are thinking. 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:18.840 Like, for real, there's going to be a Gaza riviera. 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.320 But what this does is it just expands the scope 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.480 of what they think is possible for Gaza, whether it's 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:31.880 preventing reconstruction and you know, basically keeping them in this 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:38.079 kind of stagnant condition and allowing people to start trickling 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:41.520 out and leaving, and anybody left is considered combatant. That 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.000 could be a possibility moving forward. It could cover up 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:49.880 for more aggressive action ending the ceasefire. I mean, it's 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.600 really upended the things in terms of the Israeli perspective. Yeah, 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:56.960 and how much they've accepted it, I think. 0:02:56.960 --> 0:03:00.520 Yeah, because I mean my interpretation would be that Trump's 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:04.040 literal words leave the door open to everything from like 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.920 you said, sort of slowly waiting for people to trickle 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:09.320 out and not letting them back in kind of like 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.720 what you saw in the Chagos Islands or outright mass killing, 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.959 you know, like there's no closed doors and Trump's plan. 0:03:16.080 --> 0:03:19.800 Other than about three hours before we recorded this on 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:24.480 Monday the tenth, a series of articles went out based 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.320 on some of Trump's comments, confirming Palestinians wouldn't be allowed 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.160 back into Gaza under his plan. Right, the plan is 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:32.200 for ethnic cleansing, right, Like that's the only way to 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:32.960 describe that. 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.240 Yeah, No, it's very explicit, and I think that the 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:40.440 way in which American allies, allied regimes in the region 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:45.560 have reacted to this like shows a great deal of alarm. Obviously, 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:48.960 Jordan and Egypt, already struggling as it is with a 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.840 variety of issues, don't want a bunch of Palestinians who 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.280 are very politically active to be absorbed into their population. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.119 The Saudi government, you know, put out I would say, 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.280 like a pretty strong statement. I mean, I I was 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.640 surprised how strong it was, about how much they do 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:06.040 not endorse such a plan. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.000 So yeah, And it's interesting because Trump, in the way 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.160 that he often just like says shit has I'm going 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:15.720 to read the exact quote. I'm talking about starting to 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.640 build and I think I could make a deal with Jordan. 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:19.440 I think I can make a deal with Egypt. You know, 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:21.720 we give them billions and billions of dollars a year, 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.520 and so far Egypt and Jordan have both said, no, 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:29.080 this is not something we're interested you. And Special Rapporteur 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:33.039 Francesca Albanize said Trump's proposal was nonsense but has to 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.320 be taken very seriously, which I actually think is a 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.279 reasonably good summary of how to handle everything that he says. 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:41.680 It's nonsense that you have to take it very seriously. 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:44.880 I mean, the man has the nukes, as we've discussed, 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.839 so yeah, I mean the way that people have reacted 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:52.360 is obviously a great deal of alarm. And on the 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:56.920 Palestinian side, it's like Palestinian different Palastinian political actors are 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.440 bracing for, Yeah, the end of the ceasefire essentially. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.320 Yeah, I mean, that's pretty stark term to put it. 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:05.680 And I don't know, I guess because yeah, one thing 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:08.200 that the door is open on Israel saying well, now 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.839 that we've announced this plan and people have to get out, 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:14.120 everyone's staying is effectively a combatant exactly. 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:15.240 Yeah, I think that that's. 0:05:15.640 --> 0:05:18.520 Yeah, it's not you know, what we've seen over the 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:20.840 past four hundred and seventy days up to cease fire 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.279 is not that they have much respect for non combatants 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.280 to begin with. Yeah, that really didn't stop them from 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:32.160 targeting civilians, targeting children. So you can imagine now that 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:35.400 even I mean it's hard to even talk about it 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:37.280 in these terms. It's not like the Bide administration was 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:40.320 really holding them accountable either. But now again, because the 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.719 permission structure has just been expanded to such a degree 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.520 that we don't know what kinds of things we're going 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.680 to see for people who remain in Gaza in the 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:55.039 coming future. And obviously this derails any possibility for Palestinian 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.560 and Israeli civil society actors who are trying. 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.800 To move beyond this particular status quo. 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.400 And there's no international actor that's really empowering those efforts, 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.679 and so it's really bleak. 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.440 Yeah, I mean, it's bleak in so many comprehensive ways. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.400 Like one thing, and not to I don't mean to 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.440 like kind of take the focus off of Gaza, but 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:22.040 this is you use the term permission structure on an 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:25.719 international level, the US saying we are backing a forced 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:30.159 expulsion in genocide of an entire population does change the 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:35.240 permission structure for every international actor in terms of like 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.680 a massive variety of conflicts around the world, Like this 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:42.159 is like a sea change in international norms that so 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.760 many millions of people outside of Gaza will eventually and 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:48.160 there probably immediately be effective. 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.680 By I mean, I think that there has always been 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:57.360 gaps in what is acceptable and what is permissible under 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:01.400 international law. Obviously that has never been applied evenly. And 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.400 then if you were a particular group that didn't have 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.279 American backings. For example, the Armenians in Artsa, it didn't 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.360 matter if you were ethnically cleansed. But like you said, 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:12.560 this just expands it to such a scope like now 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:17.440 this is an acceptable policy solution to remove wholesale, huge populations. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.840 And when the ceasefire happened, there was an argument, and 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.800 I think that this is a valid one that Palestinians 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.600 the fact that they were able to in the ceasefire 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.480 agreement secure their right to return even to the rubble, 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.440 that was a huge obstacle to this kind of precedent, 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.200 and I think Trump is now try to upend that victory, 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.520 even if it's you know, in terms of a precedent 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.120 set or in symbolic terms, like you said, this is 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.800 now going to become how states operate. I mean, the 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.200 Syrian dictator during the Syrian Civil War I think pushed. 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:53.080 The bounds of how states can operate. And this is 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:53.760 another level. 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.920 Yeah. Well, and I think that this is an I 0:07:57.600 --> 0:07:59.320 want to kind of zero back in on Gaza in 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.720 a second, but I really do. I think that that 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:05.000 broader point that you just make can't be made enough, 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.680 not just the centrality of Syria, but the idea that 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:11.160 when on the international stage, the leader of a country 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:15.400 is allowed to do force displacements through massive aerial bombing. 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.720 Like there's this idea that you can just be like, well, 0:08:18.760 --> 0:08:21.400 that's just Syria, Right, It's never just Syria, just like 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.520 it's never just Gaza. You know, these things metastasize. You 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.280 have to view that those kind of actions in the 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:27.840 international stage like a cancer. 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:28.640 Right. No. 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:29.360 Absolutely. 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.719 There was a Syrian activist and political writer, Yasinharsala, who 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:36.400 said the Syrianization of the world. Yeah, and we're seeing 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.839 the gasification of the world. We will see the gassification 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.920 of the word. Yeah, and that's very, very dangerous for 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:41.800 everybody involved. 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.640 Yeah, that can't be overstated. A chill kind of goes 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.840 down my spine thinking about that and thinking about that quote, 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.880 which makes this a very bad time to throw to ads. 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.000 But that's what I'm going to do. Then we're going 0:08:54.080 --> 0:09:05.839 to come back and we're going to talk about b mining. 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.480 We're back so to zero Beckon on Gaza. Obviously, one 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:12.600 thing that comes up when Trump talks about this plan 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.520 that is an actual thing that would have to be 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.439 dealt with one way or the other. Is that huge 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.240 chunks of Gaza are uninhabitable right now and will be 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:22.720 for the foreseeable future because of the sheer quantity of 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:26.120 munitions dispensed. A number of munitions that have been used 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:29.520 in Gaza are cluster munitions, but even munitions that are 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:34.400 not cluster munitions, when you're dropping bombs on particularly dense 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.520 urban targets, there's a wide variety of things that can 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:39.640 happen to those munitions on their way to their target, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.760 including them getting deflected by debris, them getting deflected by 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.439 pieces of metal and rebar and the like that damages 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.240 the device and stops it from detonating, but leaves it 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:52.080 still in an active state. And the estimate I'm seeing 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.760 for munitions used in Gaza is about ten percent of 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:56.800 the munitions, and there's no way of knowing how many 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:59.680 have been dropped, but estimates are at least thirty thousand 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:06.480 and the first seventy days I think, yeah, seven weeks, sorry, 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.160 much less than seventy days. Nearly thirty thousand munitions in 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:12.280 the first seven weeks of the war, so a huge number, 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:15.720 about ten percent at least, are still active and live. 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:18.840 And you know, for an idea of how long it 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:21.959 takes to d mine and render an area safe for 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.560 munitions like this. There are still people who die in 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:27.240 France from World World War One munitions, you know, up 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:30.560 to the present day in twenty twenty five. So this 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:33.720 is a massive problem. In the best case scenario, something 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.400 has to be done with these munitions. This is something 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.640 that Trump has been bringing up and when talking about 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:40.760 like his desire to clear people out of their d 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:45.720 mine and then rebuild effectively what sounds almost like a 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.600 vacation colony right for the United States. And one of 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.079 the issues just with any sort of practical sort of 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:55.840 effect with D mining is that USAID has been gutted 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.640 as an agency, and that's the agency through which D 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.160 mining was done. We've spent billions of dollars, put billions 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:05.160 of dollars into d mining around the world through USAYED. 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:08.720 The US military is actually not allowed by our laws 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:12.480 to do d mining operations. There's a complicated history there. 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:15.360 But like so, we both got this situation where the 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.400 proposed justification for pushing the population out is well, it's 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:21.360 not safe to be there, we have to determine it. 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.400 And also we have created a situation in which the 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.199 organizations that do d mining can't do it anymore. 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.680 Yeah, And I think those same organizations asked for like 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.760 an exception to the stop work order and were denied 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.240 by the State Department. And yep, no, you know, no 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.920 explanations were given. And so I mean it's it's obviously 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:44.720 a fig leaf. Yeah, it's obviously an excuse like this 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:48.600 has nothing to do with bettering conditions in Gaza. And 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:51.480 I the fact that he's gone back and clarified and 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:53.839 has been asked the number of times, including last night 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.360 after the Super Bowl or something, and he said no, no, 0:11:56.360 --> 0:11:59.280 they won't be allowed to return. Yeah, well, all right, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:01.679 what are you doing mining? You really think you're going 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:03.040 to build hotels? 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:04.280 Yeah? 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:08.680 My understanding is like people in the administration were also 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:13.920 surprised by this tack of reasoning. So I wonder who's 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.840 fed him this idea, Like, who's given him this idea 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:18.760 that he's going to be able to build hotels? 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:24.000 Here my understanding, based on reading, I don't have any 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.840 inns in the Trump administration, but the reporting I've seen 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.200 suggested came from Kushner that like a year or so ago. 0:12:30.000 --> 0:12:32.000 He was talking he's been talking about this like this. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.319 Is great, you know, a great place to build a condo. 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.120 It's beautiful, you know, wonderful weather. I mean, we know 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.400 just from the past. That is kind of how Trump 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:42.240 works is somebody people tell him a lot of shit, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:45.240 but something sticks in his brain and that, like with 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.439 the Greenland, shit can become US policy, and that appears 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:50.000 to be I mean, as best as I can tell, 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:51.000 that's the origin of this. 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.720 It's just like the grift can really stick in his mind. 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.160 He's really good at holding onto possibilities for grifting. 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.280 Yeah, the fact that you are doing a genocide in 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.280 order to clear land for condos doesn't make it less 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.520 of a genocide, but it is like a justification for genocide. 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.840 I don't think i've heard a country's leader make before, right, 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.400 I mean, parts of this are familiar and go back, 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.280 you know, even to the Iraq War in terms of 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.800 US Paul and further back right, like what is kind 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.080 of the core of US support of Israel as our 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.840 desire to have a stable territory within the Middle East 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.200 from where we can project power, right, so to that extent, 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.240 this is like a natural expression of US policy for 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.200 decades in the area. Like, well, what if we just 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.360 take this for ourselves, and then we have this stable 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.319 platform from where we can airstrike whoever the hell we want. 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.199 And also Jared Kushner can have his condos. 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:45.880 Yeah. 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.040 I mean the thing is they can, they can achieve 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.640 and have already been able to maintain American hegemony with 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.960 all sorts of bases across the Middle East some secrets, 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:59.640 I'm not, Yeah, cultar like it's it's this is I 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.480 think this is another level where it's like American and 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.320 geminy is tangential to Jared Kushner making money. It's an 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.960 interesting little I've never seen a hedgemon kind of shoot 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.800 itself in the foot in this direction to this degree. 0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:17.680 Yeah, I don't want the focus to be on like 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.440 the danger to Americans from this, but this is extremely 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:24.040 dangerous for Americans too, right, Like having your country openly 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:27.560 back a genocide to this extent, like not just even 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.600 arming it, but saying like we are specifically going to build, 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.360 like take this land and profit off of it. Is 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:39.240 such as it's so comprehensively escalates everything on an international scale. 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:41.720 Like I don't even I can't even I can't think 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.320 of a single decision that's this reckless that's been made 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.520 in my lifetime by American politicians other than the Iraq 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:49.080 War right. 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.600 And that was I think maybe the first nail in 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:55.120 the confine, and we're reaching the last nails in the coffin. 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.480 Yeah, yeah, well the coffin's almost done. 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:58.360 It's almost done. 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:04.880 We're dismantling the whatever remnants of the international order used 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.760 to exist, and it's really going to be a free fall. 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:10.520 Yeah. I don't know what more to say on that. 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.480 I guess kind of one thing we should get into 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.160 is what we're seeing in terms of the Trump administration 0:15:17.360 --> 0:15:20.240 and pro Palestine protests in the United States. Obviously, last 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.760 night at the Super Bowl, we had a moment where 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.360 a member of Kendrick Lamar's the performance crew on the ground. 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:28.920 I think it was one of his dancers. As far 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:31.040 as I can tell them, I don't believe the individual 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:32.720 has been named yet. Maybe I missed that. 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:35.800 I think somebody has released his name. I took to intercept. 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.080 Okay, well, I don't feel specifically a need to do that. 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:41.760 But an individual who was a part of that was 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.480 standing on like one of the cars that was on 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:48.520 stage that Kendrick had been dancing on, unfurled a Palestine 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.280 and Sudan flag. It is a fairly small, like a 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.200 couple of feet wide, couple of feet deep, so like 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.800 not like a mass, certainly not a destructive act, but like, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.800 not only did that person get like banned for life 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:04.440 from all sort of NFL events and performing or attending them, 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:08.920 which I suppose was not super shocking, but there were 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.960 immediate announcements by New Orleans police that they are trying 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:16.040 to figure out what to charge this person under, which, like, 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.960 I tell me what kind of crime that is, you. 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.440 Know, I mean, it's not like he even invaded the pitch, right, 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:24.880 like he's it likes to be an actor. 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.640 Yeah, he did a thing, I thing that wasn't part 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:30.600 of the script I assume, but like, I don't know 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:33.240 how you even charged him. Yeah, I don't think charges 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:36.160 are out yet, right, but they're going to find something 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.600 to do, which is also going to set a precedent, 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:42.400 right because this is nothing. This person was not in 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:44.400 a place they weren't allowed to be. This person didn't 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:47.680 damage any property they held a thing like that's the 0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:51.320 definition of protect and speech. You know, if you're their employer, 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.600 you can fire them for that, but you can't charge 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:55.720 them criminally for that. 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:57.960 I mean, they wanted to make an example. 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:01.120 They and we'll see what kind of example that they 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.600 try to make out of this person. And it like, 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.159 like you said, it's it's really in line with Trump, 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:12.439 the Trump administration taking aggressive action against any forms of 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.280 dissent around American foreign policy. That is obviously, as we've mentioned, 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:21.080 like very tied up with the genocide that unfolded. And 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.240 so it's these executive orders around deporting international students, it's 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:30.160 executive orders around like expanded understandings of anti semitism and 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:31.640 the ideas. 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.120 Even if you don't go. 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.040 After everybody, you're making an example enough that like you're 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:41.000 chilling people's abilities to engage, whether it's on campuses or 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.960 you know, off campuses, and so it's it's definitely I 0:17:44.960 --> 0:17:48.159 can tell you from like the academic perspective, like a 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:52.840 number of disciplinary organizations and and and like Middle Ease 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:57.160 Studies Association and things like this, like they're they're very concerned, 0:17:57.200 --> 0:17:58.639 Like this is a very concerning moment. 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.480 Yeah, I want to kind of dig into that a 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.919 little bit more, and we'll continue our conversation. I've got 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.400 to throw to ads one last time and then we'll 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:20.520 be back we're back, Dan, Yeah, we're just talking about 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:22.960 kind of the chilling effects this has had as an academic. 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.240 Do you want to talk a little bit about what 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:28.399 you've experienced so far and what you think kind of 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.560 needs to be the response to this attempt to chill 0:18:31.640 --> 0:18:35.399 any kind of protected speech in favor of Palestine or 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.120 not even in favor that's the wrong way to put it. Yeah, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.680 discussing the reality of the genocide. 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.399 Yeah, I mean that's the thing is, like they have 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:49.200 not they've conflated. Yeah, any any attempt to give information 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.199 with advocacy. Yes, so there's that conflation. But then of 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.080 course advocacy in and of itself is protected. Yes, you're 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.760 certainly allowed to advocate if you're a student or things, 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:00.359 or you know, a citizen in the world world like, 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:02.320 of course, So there is that conflation. 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:05.080 And I will say that we're. 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:09.520 Seeing attacks on academic freedom, and we're seeing attacks on 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:12.600 freedom of speech and freedom of assembly on academic campuses, 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:16.240 both in public institutions that have to uphold public laws 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:19.199 and also on private institutions that have paid lip service 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:23.000 to things like free speech and are now ignoring that 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.600 commitment in the past. And so we've seen even tenured professors, 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:30.159 like what happened in Nihlenberg College, like tenured professors being 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:31.960 targeted losing their jobs. 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.440 And I can say that. 0:19:34.400 --> 0:19:38.560 This has really activated organizations like the American Association of 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:42.440 University Professors, the AAUP, the Middle East Studies Association as well. 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.640 Their Committee on Academic Freedom has been. 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.439 Working to collect data on how this has impacted people's 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.320 abilities to engage on the issue of Israel Palstad even 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:54.560 in their research or teaching. And then there was a 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:58.320 study by two professors Mark Lynch and Shivy Tadhemi George 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:02.440 Washington and the University of Maryland, respectively that found something 0:20:02.480 --> 0:20:06.680 like over ninety percent of professors who teach on the 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:07.480 Middle East. 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:09.080 Are self censoring Jesus. 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:11.760 And it's not because they're out in front of the 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.159 classroom giving a crap about giving their opinion. Yeah, I 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:20.359 can tell you none of us want to change anybody's 0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:21.080 minds about this. 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.680 It's like they're literally just self censoring the content. 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:27.920 Yeah, like we're just afraid to even address what happened, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.520 what's happening in a historical context, or you know, teaching 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.600 a course on Israel Palestine or any of those kinds 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.200 of things is now completely under the microscope. 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.399 And this is all part of the whole kind of 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:45.280 authoritarian chilling effect of any ability to express anything outside 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:47.920 of like what the regimes can that you live under 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:53.000 considers acceptable, you know, And it always starts with these well, 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.560 you know, if we talk about Palestine and what's happening there, 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.520 then maybe this department will get, you know, its funding cut, 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:00.560 and we won't be able to talk about anything. So really, 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.560 this is the same decision a lot of hospitals are 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.760 making around like the treatment for transcripts as well, or 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:08.879 we'll lose our funding if we do this, and we 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.639 do all these other good things. But they never stop, right, like, 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.560 you never actually are safe. There's no point at which 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:19.480 these people say it's enough. They take your ability to 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:21.960 talk about or to act in one way away, and 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:23.919 then they take it in a way in another, and 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:27.440 they keep taking, you know, until you make a stand, 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:29.600