1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: All media, Welcome back to It could Happen Here. This 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: is a daily news podcast about all of the things 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: happening here, which is wherever you happen to be, and 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: also the world in general. And today we are going 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: back to talk about Gaza, particularly what has happened and 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: changed in sort of US policy relating to Gaza, to 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: what's going to happen as the actual combat operations wind down, 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: to the Trump administration's so far promises to effectively ethnically 9 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: cleanse the entire area and turn it into some sort 10 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: of weird US satellite. And with me today is Donna 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: el Kurd, An assistant professor of political science, guest on 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: our episodes about Bibi n Yahoo over It, Behind the Bastards, Danna, 13 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here with us. How 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: are you doing today? I know that's a dumb question. 15 00:00:57,960 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: I just asked you that at the start of this too. 16 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. I think every Palestinian 17 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 2: in the world is not doing great. 18 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, like I said, a dumb question. 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: The short story of what is happening is that Trump 20 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 3: made an unprecedented announcement about a week ago on stage 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 3: with Netan Yahoo that Gazo would be that, like the 22 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 3: Palestinian population would be forced out and not allowed to return, 23 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: and it would be turned into effectively American condos, right, Like, 24 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 3: that's essentially I think that's essentially the gist of the 25 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 3: initial meeting, which was met with a degree of chaos 26 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 3: even from Israel, because I don't think anyone entirely knew 27 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 3: exactly what Trump was going to say when he got 28 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 3: up on that stage, which is pretty normal Trump fashion. 29 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 3: But yeah, how would you characterize kind of the initial 30 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 3: reaction to that announcement. 31 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, so a couple of different audiences for that announcement 32 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: to begin with. For the Israeli side, I mean, what 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: I'm hearing from analysts and people who follow Israeli politics 34 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: is that this has really changed the permission structure for them. 35 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: I think you're right that didn't expect something to this degree, 37 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 2: But now that it's been said, it's like that is 38 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: the full extent of what we can expect to do, right, 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 2: And so I don't think a lot of people are thinking. 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 4: Like, for real, there's going to be a Gaza riviera. 41 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: But what this does is it just expands the scope 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: of what they think is possible for Gaza, whether it's 43 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,880 Speaker 2: preventing reconstruction and you know, basically keeping them in this 44 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 2: kind of stagnant condition and allowing people to start trickling 45 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: out and leaving, and anybody left is considered combatant. That 46 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: could be a possibility moving forward. It could cover up 47 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: for more aggressive action ending the ceasefire. I mean, it's 48 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 2: really upended the things in terms of the Israeli perspective. Yeah, 49 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 2: and how much they've accepted it, I think. 50 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, because I mean my interpretation would be that Trump's 51 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 3: literal words leave the door open to everything from like 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 3: you said, sort of slowly waiting for people to trickle 53 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 3: out and not letting them back in kind of like 54 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 3: what you saw in the Chagos Islands or outright mass killing, 55 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 3: you know, like there's no closed doors and Trump's plan. 56 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 3: Other than about three hours before we recorded this on 57 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: Monday the tenth, a series of articles went out based 58 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 3: on some of Trump's comments, confirming Palestinians wouldn't be allowed 59 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 3: back into Gaza under his plan. Right, the plan is 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 3: for ethnic cleansing, right, Like that's the only way to 61 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: describe that. 62 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's very explicit, and I think that the 63 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: way in which American allies, allied regimes in the region 64 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: have reacted to this like shows a great deal of alarm. Obviously, 65 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: Jordan and Egypt, already struggling as it is with a 66 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: variety of issues, don't want a bunch of Palestinians who 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: are very politically active to be absorbed into their population. 68 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:59,119 Speaker 2: The Saudi government, you know, put out I would say, 69 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: like a pretty strong statement. I mean, I I was 70 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: surprised how strong it was, about how much they do 71 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: not endorse such a plan. 72 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 3: So yeah, And it's interesting because Trump, in the way 73 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: that he often just like says shit has I'm going 74 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: to read the exact quote. I'm talking about starting to 75 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 3: build and I think I could make a deal with Jordan. 76 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 3: I think I can make a deal with Egypt. You know, 77 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:21,720 Speaker 3: we give them billions and billions of dollars a year, 78 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 3: and so far Egypt and Jordan have both said, no, 79 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 3: this is not something we're interested you. And Special Rapporteur 80 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 3: Francesca Albanize said Trump's proposal was nonsense but has to 81 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: be taken very seriously, which I actually think is a 82 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 3: reasonably good summary of how to handle everything that he says. 83 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 3: It's nonsense that you have to take it very seriously. 84 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: I mean, the man has the nukes, as we've discussed, 85 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: so yeah, I mean the way that people have reacted 86 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: is obviously a great deal of alarm. And on the 87 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: Palestinian side, it's like Palestinian different Palastinian political actors are 88 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: bracing for, Yeah, the end of the ceasefire essentially. 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's pretty stark term to put it. 90 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: And I don't know, I guess because yeah, one thing 91 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 3: that the door is open on Israel saying well, now 92 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 3: that we've announced this plan and people have to get out, 93 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 3: everyone's staying is effectively a combatant exactly. 94 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that that's. 95 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not you know, what we've seen over the 96 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 2: past four hundred and seventy days up to cease fire 97 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 2: is not that they have much respect for non combatants 98 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 2: to begin with. Yeah, that really didn't stop them from 99 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 2: targeting civilians, targeting children. So you can imagine now that 100 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: even I mean it's hard to even talk about it 101 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 2: in these terms. It's not like the Bide administration was 102 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 2: really holding them accountable either. But now again, because the 103 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 2: permission structure has just been expanded to such a degree 104 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: that we don't know what kinds of things we're going 105 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 2: to see for people who remain in Gaza in the 106 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:55,039 Speaker 2: coming future. And obviously this derails any possibility for Palestinian 107 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: and Israeli civil society actors who are trying. 108 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 4: To move beyond this particular status quo. 109 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: And there's no international actor that's really empowering those efforts, 110 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 2: and so it's really bleak. 111 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it's bleak in so many comprehensive ways. 112 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 3: Like one thing, and not to I don't mean to 113 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 3: like kind of take the focus off of Gaza, but 114 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: this is you use the term permission structure on an 115 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 3: international level, the US saying we are backing a forced 116 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 3: expulsion in genocide of an entire population does change the 117 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 3: permission structure for every international actor in terms of like 118 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 3: a massive variety of conflicts around the world, Like this 119 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 3: is like a sea change in international norms that so 120 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: many millions of people outside of Gaza will eventually and 121 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 3: there probably immediately be effective. 122 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: By I mean, I think that there has always been 123 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 2: gaps in what is acceptable and what is permissible under 124 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 2: international law. Obviously that has never been applied evenly. And 125 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: then if you were a particular group that didn't have 126 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 2: American backings. For example, the Armenians in Artsa, it didn't 127 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 2: matter if you were ethnically cleansed. But like you said, 128 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: this just expands it to such a scope like now 129 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: this is an acceptable policy solution to remove wholesale, huge populations. 130 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: And when the ceasefire happened, there was an argument, and 131 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: I think that this is a valid one that Palestinians 132 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: the fact that they were able to in the ceasefire 133 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: agreement secure their right to return even to the rubble, 134 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: that was a huge obstacle to this kind of precedent, 135 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: and I think Trump is now try to upend that victory, 136 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 2: even if it's you know, in terms of a precedent 137 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: set or in symbolic terms, like you said, this is 138 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: now going to become how states operate. I mean, the 139 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: Syrian dictator during the Syrian Civil War I think pushed. 140 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 4: The bounds of how states can operate. And this is 141 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 4: another level. 142 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and I think that this is an I 143 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 3: want to kind of zero back in on Gaza in 144 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 3: a second, but I really do. I think that that 145 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 3: broader point that you just make can't be made enough, 146 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 3: not just the centrality of Syria, but the idea that 147 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 3: when on the international stage, the leader of a country 148 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 3: is allowed to do force displacements through massive aerial bombing. 149 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: Like there's this idea that you can just be like, well, 150 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: that's just Syria, Right, It's never just Syria, just like 151 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 3: it's never just Gaza. You know, these things metastasize. You 152 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 3: have to view that those kind of actions in the 153 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 3: international stage like a cancer. 154 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 5: Right. No. 155 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 156 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 2: There was a Syrian activist and political writer, Yasinharsala, who 157 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: said the Syrianization of the world. Yeah, and we're seeing 158 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 2: the gasification of the world. We will see the gassification 159 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 2: of the word. Yeah, and that's very, very dangerous for 160 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: everybody involved. 161 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, that can't be overstated. A chill kind of goes 162 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: down my spine thinking about that and thinking about that quote, 163 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 3: which makes this a very bad time to throw to ads. 164 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 3: But that's what I'm going to do. Then we're going 165 00:08:54,080 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 3: to come back and we're going to talk about b mining. 166 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 3: We're back so to zero Beckon on Gaza. Obviously, one 167 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 3: thing that comes up when Trump talks about this plan 168 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 3: that is an actual thing that would have to be 169 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 3: dealt with one way or the other. Is that huge 170 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 3: chunks of Gaza are uninhabitable right now and will be 171 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 3: for the foreseeable future because of the sheer quantity of 172 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 3: munitions dispensed. A number of munitions that have been used 173 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: in Gaza are cluster munitions, but even munitions that are 174 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 3: not cluster munitions, when you're dropping bombs on particularly dense 175 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 3: urban targets, there's a wide variety of things that can 176 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 3: happen to those munitions on their way to their target, 177 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 3: including them getting deflected by debris, them getting deflected by 178 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 3: pieces of metal and rebar and the like that damages 179 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 3: the device and stops it from detonating, but leaves it 180 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 3: still in an active state. And the estimate I'm seeing 181 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 3: for munitions used in Gaza is about ten percent of 182 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: the munitions, and there's no way of knowing how many 183 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 3: have been dropped, but estimates are at least thirty thousand 184 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 3: and the first seventy days I think, yeah, seven weeks, sorry, 185 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 3: much less than seventy days. Nearly thirty thousand munitions in 186 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 3: the first seven weeks of the war, so a huge number, 187 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 3: about ten percent at least, are still active and live. 188 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 3: And you know, for an idea of how long it 189 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,959 Speaker 3: takes to d mine and render an area safe for 190 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 3: munitions like this. There are still people who die in 191 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: France from World World War One munitions, you know, up 192 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 3: to the present day in twenty twenty five. So this 193 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 3: is a massive problem. In the best case scenario, something 194 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 3: has to be done with these munitions. This is something 195 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 3: that Trump has been bringing up and when talking about 196 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 3: like his desire to clear people out of their d 197 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 3: mine and then rebuild effectively what sounds almost like a 198 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: vacation colony right for the United States. And one of 199 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,079 Speaker 3: the issues just with any sort of practical sort of 200 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 3: effect with D mining is that USAID has been gutted 201 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 3: as an agency, and that's the agency through which D 202 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 3: mining was done. We've spent billions of dollars, put billions 203 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 3: of dollars into d mining around the world through USAYED. 204 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: The US military is actually not allowed by our laws 205 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 3: to do d mining operations. There's a complicated history there. 206 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 3: But like so, we both got this situation where the 207 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: proposed justification for pushing the population out is well, it's 208 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 3: not safe to be there, we have to determine it. 209 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 3: And also we have created a situation in which the 210 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,199 Speaker 3: organizations that do d mining can't do it anymore. 211 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think those same organizations asked for like 212 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 2: an exception to the stop work order and were denied 213 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: by the State Department. And yep, no, you know, no 214 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 2: explanations were given. And so I mean it's it's obviously 215 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 2: a fig leaf. Yeah, it's obviously an excuse like this 216 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 2: has nothing to do with bettering conditions in Gaza. And 217 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: I the fact that he's gone back and clarified and 218 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: has been asked the number of times, including last night 219 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 2: after the Super Bowl or something, and he said no, no, 220 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: they won't be allowed to return. Yeah, well, all right, 221 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 2: what are you doing mining? You really think you're going 222 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: to build hotels? 223 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:04,280 Speaker 3: Yeah? 224 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: My understanding is like people in the administration were also 225 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: surprised by this tack of reasoning. So I wonder who's 226 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: fed him this idea, Like, who's given him this idea 227 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: that he's going to be able to build hotels? 228 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: Here my understanding, based on reading, I don't have any 229 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 3: inns in the Trump administration, but the reporting I've seen 230 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: suggested came from Kushner that like a year or so ago. 231 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 4: He was talking he's been talking about this like this. 232 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 3: Is great, you know, a great place to build a condo. 233 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 3: It's beautiful, you know, wonderful weather. I mean, we know 234 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 3: just from the past. That is kind of how Trump 235 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 3: works is somebody people tell him a lot of shit, 236 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: but something sticks in his brain and that, like with 237 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 3: the Greenland, shit can become US policy, and that appears 238 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 3: to be I mean, as best as I can tell, 239 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 3: that's the origin of this. 240 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: It's just like the grift can really stick in his mind. 241 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: He's really good at holding onto possibilities for grifting. 242 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, the fact that you are doing a genocide in 243 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 3: order to clear land for condos doesn't make it less 244 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 3: of a genocide, but it is like a justification for genocide. 245 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: I don't think i've heard a country's leader make before, right, 246 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: I mean, parts of this are familiar and go back, 247 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: you know, even to the Iraq War in terms of 248 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 3: US Paul and further back right, like what is kind 249 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 3: of the core of US support of Israel as our 250 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 3: desire to have a stable territory within the Middle East 251 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 3: from where we can project power, right, so to that extent, 252 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: this is like a natural expression of US policy for 253 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 3: decades in the area. Like, well, what if we just 254 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 3: take this for ourselves, and then we have this stable 255 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 3: platform from where we can airstrike whoever the hell we want. 256 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,199 Speaker 3: And also Jared Kushner can have his condos. 257 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 258 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: I mean the thing is they can, they can achieve 259 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: and have already been able to maintain American hegemony with 260 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 2: all sorts of bases across the Middle East some secrets, 261 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: I'm not, Yeah, cultar like it's it's this is I 262 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 2: think this is another level where it's like American and 263 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 2: geminy is tangential to Jared Kushner making money. It's an 264 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 2: interesting little I've never seen a hedgemon kind of shoot 265 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: itself in the foot in this direction to this degree. 266 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want the focus to be on like 267 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: the danger to Americans from this, but this is extremely 268 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 3: dangerous for Americans too, right, Like having your country openly 269 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 3: back a genocide to this extent, like not just even 270 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 3: arming it, but saying like we are specifically going to build, 271 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 3: like take this land and profit off of it. Is 272 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 3: such as it's so comprehensively escalates everything on an international scale. 273 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 3: Like I don't even I can't even I can't think 274 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 3: of a single decision that's this reckless that's been made 275 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 3: in my lifetime by American politicians other than the Iraq 276 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 3: War right. 277 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: And that was I think maybe the first nail in 278 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 2: the confine, and we're reaching the last nails in the coffin. 279 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, well the coffin's almost done. 280 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 4: It's almost done. 281 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 2: We're dismantling the whatever remnants of the international order used 282 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: to exist, and it's really going to be a free fall. 283 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. I don't know what more to say on that. 284 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 3: I guess kind of one thing we should get into 285 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 3: is what we're seeing in terms of the Trump administration 286 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 3: and pro Palestine protests in the United States. Obviously, last 287 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 3: night at the Super Bowl, we had a moment where 288 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 3: a member of Kendrick Lamar's the performance crew on the ground. 289 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: I think it was one of his dancers. As far 290 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 3: as I can tell them, I don't believe the individual 291 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 3: has been named yet. Maybe I missed that. 292 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 4: I think somebody has released his name. I took to intercept. 293 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I don't feel specifically a need to do that. 294 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: But an individual who was a part of that was 295 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 3: standing on like one of the cars that was on 296 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 3: stage that Kendrick had been dancing on, unfurled a Palestine 297 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 3: and Sudan flag. It is a fairly small, like a 298 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 3: couple of feet wide, couple of feet deep, so like 299 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 3: not like a mass, certainly not a destructive act, but like, 300 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 3: not only did that person get like banned for life 301 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 3: from all sort of NFL events and performing or attending them, 302 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 3: which I suppose was not super shocking, but there were 303 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 3: immediate announcements by New Orleans police that they are trying 304 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: to figure out what to charge this person under, which, like, 305 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 3: I tell me what kind of crime that is, you. 306 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: Know, I mean, it's not like he even invaded the pitch, right, 307 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: like he's it likes to be an actor. 308 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, he did a thing, I thing that wasn't part 309 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 3: of the script I assume, but like, I don't know 310 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 3: how you even charged him. Yeah, I don't think charges 311 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 3: are out yet, right, but they're going to find something 312 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: to do, which is also going to set a precedent, 313 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 3: right because this is nothing. This person was not in 314 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 3: a place they weren't allowed to be. This person didn't 315 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 3: damage any property they held a thing like that's the 316 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: definition of protect and speech. You know, if you're their employer, 317 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 3: you can fire them for that, but you can't charge 318 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 3: them criminally for that. 319 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 4: I mean, they wanted to make an example. 320 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: They and we'll see what kind of example that they 321 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: try to make out of this person. And it like, 322 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: like you said, it's it's really in line with Trump, 323 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 2: the Trump administration taking aggressive action against any forms of 324 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 2: dissent around American foreign policy. That is obviously, as we've mentioned, 325 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: like very tied up with the genocide that unfolded. And 326 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: so it's these executive orders around deporting international students, it's 327 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 2: executive orders around like expanded understandings of anti semitism and 328 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 2: the ideas. 329 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,120 Speaker 4: Even if you don't go. 330 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 2: After everybody, you're making an example enough that like you're 331 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 2: chilling people's abilities to engage, whether it's on campuses or 332 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 2: you know, off campuses, and so it's it's definitely I 333 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: can tell you from like the academic perspective, like a 334 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: number of disciplinary organizations and and and like Middle Ease 335 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: Studies Association and things like this, like they're they're very concerned, 336 00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 2: Like this is a very concerning moment. 337 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I want to kind of dig into that a 338 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 3: little bit more, and we'll continue our conversation. I've got 339 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 3: to throw to ads one last time and then we'll 340 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 3: be back we're back, Dan, Yeah, we're just talking about 341 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 3: kind of the chilling effects this has had as an academic. 342 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: Do you want to talk a little bit about what 343 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 3: you've experienced so far and what you think kind of 344 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: needs to be the response to this attempt to chill 345 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 3: any kind of protected speech in favor of Palestine or 346 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 3: not even in favor that's the wrong way to put it. Yeah, 347 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 3: discussing the reality of the genocide. 348 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the thing is, like they have 349 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 2: not they've conflated. Yeah, any any attempt to give information 350 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 2: with advocacy. Yes, so there's that conflation. But then of 351 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 2: course advocacy in and of itself is protected. Yes, you're 352 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: certainly allowed to advocate if you're a student or things, 353 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 2: or you know, a citizen in the world world like, 354 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: of course, So there is that conflation. 355 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 4: And I will say that we're. 356 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: Seeing attacks on academic freedom, and we're seeing attacks on 357 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: freedom of speech and freedom of assembly on academic campuses, 358 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: both in public institutions that have to uphold public laws 359 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 2: and also on private institutions that have paid lip service 360 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: to things like free speech and are now ignoring that 361 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 2: commitment in the past. And so we've seen even tenured professors, 362 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 2: like what happened in Nihlenberg College, like tenured professors being 363 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 2: targeted losing their jobs. 364 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 4: And I can say that. 365 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 2: This has really activated organizations like the American Association of 366 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 2: University Professors, the AAUP, the Middle East Studies Association as well. 367 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 4: Their Committee on Academic Freedom has been. 368 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 2: Working to collect data on how this has impacted people's 369 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: abilities to engage on the issue of Israel Palstad even 370 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 2: in their research or teaching. And then there was a 371 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: study by two professors Mark Lynch and Shivy Tadhemi George 372 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 2: Washington and the University of Maryland, respectively that found something 373 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: like over ninety percent of professors who teach on the 374 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 2: Middle East. 375 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 4: Are self censoring Jesus. 376 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 2: And it's not because they're out in front of the 377 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: classroom giving a crap about giving their opinion. Yeah, I 378 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: can tell you none of us want to change anybody's 379 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 2: minds about this. 380 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 4: It's like they're literally just self censoring the content. 381 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, like we're just afraid to even address what happened, 382 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: what's happening in a historical context, or you know, teaching 383 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: a course on Israel Palestine or any of those kinds 384 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 2: of things is now completely under the microscope. 385 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 3: And this is all part of the whole kind of 386 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 3: authoritarian chilling effect of any ability to express anything outside 387 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 3: of like what the regimes can that you live under 388 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: considers acceptable, you know, And it always starts with these well, 389 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 3: you know, if we talk about Palestine and what's happening there, 390 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: then maybe this department will get, you know, its funding cut, 391 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 3: and we won't be able to talk about anything. So really, 392 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 3: this is the same decision a lot of hospitals are 393 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 3: making around like the treatment for transcripts as well, or 394 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,879 Speaker 3: we'll lose our funding if we do this, and we 395 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 3: do all these other good things. But they never stop, right, like, 396 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: you never actually are safe. There's no point at which 397 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 3: these people say it's enough. They take your ability to 398 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 3: talk about or to act in one way away, and 399 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 3: then they take it in a way in another, and 400 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 3: they keep taking, you know, until you make a stand, 401 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 3: and you might as well make a stand the first 402 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 3: time they start trying to take shit from you, otherwise 403 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 3: you're going to get backed even further into a fucking corner. 404 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, there has to be institutions and leadership at these 405 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 2: institutions holding a line because this kind of preemptive obedience 406 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: hasn't served them and it's not going to change fundamentally, 407 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 2: the fact that this administration sees academic knowledge production as 408 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: a political landscape they need to control. And see, I 409 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 2: mean Jadvan says it like professors. 410 00:21:58,240 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 4: Are the enemy. 411 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, what are you doing trying to placate you know, 412 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 2: it's like you're just giving them an easier time. 413 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 3: No, And yeah, through the use of funding and their 414 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 3: ability to kind of gin up outrage in media, groups 415 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 3: like APEC have effectively blasted a salient in free speech 416 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 3: in this country where you really you almost can't talk 417 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 3: about Palestine and you certainly can't acknowledge what Israel is doing, right, 418 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 3: you can't say it stayent plane terms like we are 419 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 3: watching a genocide be at least attempted here, right, And 420 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 3: if you do that, there are huge consequences to most 421 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 3: people in traditional organizations, particularly professors, which is always where 422 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 3: it starts. And yeah, that salient is just going to 423 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 3: get whiter and whiter and whiter, right like that that's 424 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 3: the way this stuff works. 425 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is not a new argument, 426 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,959 Speaker 2: but it's like the ways in which the United States 427 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 2: has engaged abroad, it's very much boomeranging home, you know. 428 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 2: And so it's not about, like you said, it's not 429 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: just about Palestine. It's not about people who studied Palestine 430 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 2: or teach about Israel Palestine. 431 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 4: It's so much broader than that. 432 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: The precedent that is being set, and what is like 433 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 2: kind of a silver lining is that the last year 434 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 2: of the Biden administration, the last year plus of the 435 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: Biden administration, and then even now, I think at least 436 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: it has helped people connect the dots a little bit, 437 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: like this is not an issue in isolation, and just 438 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: because you don't happen to work on it doesn't mean 439 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: that you're safe from people meddling in your syllabi or 440 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: chilling your speech on other issues, whether it's trans rights, 441 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 2: whether it's you know, reproductive rights, whatever issue. If you 442 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 2: don't toe the line, they're going to come for you 443 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,200 Speaker 2: to right. And so I think that at least I've 444 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: seen folks who are not who have never been, you know, 445 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: activated on the issue of Israel Palestine, whether in their 446 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: advocacy or in their research, they're making that connection at least, 447 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 2: and maybe that's a sole role learning that I'm trying 448 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 2: to be less bleak here. 449 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think that's helpful. You know, when I 450 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 3: think about the hypocrisy of this moment, I think about 451 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 3: how much of the clamping down on speech, particularly the 452 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 3: attempt to punish like student protesters in the United States, 453 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 3: is predicated on accusing them of backing Hamas, right, And 454 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 3: it's so interesting to me because, like, you know, obviously 455 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 3: I don't think CAMAS is a good organization, but neither 456 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 3: is the IRA, and the former President of the United States, 457 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: Joe Biden, made pro IRA statements, right, Like one thing 458 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 3: is okay and the other is not. I don't know's 459 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 3: I find it incredibly frustrating that like there's this pretended 460 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 3: act that like, because you've got some people on one 461 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 3: side who have made statements in favor of this group, 462 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 3: that sucks that that is a reason for cracking down 463 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 3: on the ability of people to talk about a genocide. 464 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 3: Like it's it's just this hideous hypocrisy that I don't 465 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 3: even understand how like people can keep that consistent in 466 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 3: their own heads, but they don't need to write that's 467 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 3: always the thing with fascist No, there's no need for consistency. 468 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the thing is like, first 469 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: of all, the conflation that like the entire movement made 470 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 2: such a statement or you know, I mean obviously that 471 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 2: that in and of itself is dishonest. And like you said, 472 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 2: it's not that they care about consistency and they don't 473 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 2: have to maintain an honest approach to this. They're just 474 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 2: using these isolated incidents of particular you know, particular students 475 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 2: or particular groups to shut down. 476 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 4: Any speech around it. 477 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 2: And I was featured in this like vox video and 478 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: it was just like an explainer, and I received some 479 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: harassment and like accusations that because I was providing context 480 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: in a Vox video, which is what I was asked 481 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 2: to do based on my expertise, that I was making 482 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: excuses for, you know, what had happened on October seventh. 483 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 4: I was like, is the red line. 484 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 2: Now just even discussing anything like with any kind of 485 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: expertise or information like it's it's uh, yeah, it's mind boggling. 486 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,679 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess I think that is what they 487 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 3: want to make the red line. Yeah, yeah, what you 488 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 3: went through there too makes me so angry when I 489 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 3: read shit like and this is not on Gillibrand, but 490 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 3: Kristin Gillibrand was on someone's podcast recently talking about why 491 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 3: some of her Republican colleagues who had expressed opposition to 492 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 3: some of Trump's picks ultimately voted for them. And she's like, 493 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,120 Speaker 3: they're scared of getting murdered, and like, isn't everyone who 494 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 3: says anything? And like you got death threats for a 495 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 3: Vox video, Like why are these Congress people who have 496 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 3: so many more resources to protect themselves, why do they 497 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 3: get to be scared? 498 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: Oh? Well that's that's yeah, Congress, And it's and it's 499 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: inability to do anything, Like yeah, that's that's a whole 500 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: other level of demoralization. 501 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to make sure 502 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 3: we hit on during this conversation before we sort of 503 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 3: close things out. 504 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 2: I'm not sure if maybe this is two in the weeds, 505 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 2: but I think there's been a lot discussed around Trump 506 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 2: and the statements around Gaza and his supposed plans for Gaza, 507 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: and some analysts have claimed that this has to do 508 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 2: with like taking an extreme position so that then Arab 509 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 2: Israeli normalization deals could make the claim that like we 510 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: talked him down from this brink, and like Saudi is 511 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: going to make peace with Israel and claim that we 512 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,439 Speaker 2: convinced Trump not to do this kind of thing. And 513 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 2: so that's been something I've read in some analysis, and 514 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: I don't think it's actually correct. I don't think that 515 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,239 Speaker 2: Trump is making these kinds of statements or possibly these 516 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,119 Speaker 2: kinds of plans, just as kind of like I don't know, 517 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: multi level chess with Saudi Arabia to get them to 518 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 2: sign a peace deal with Israel, and the conditions in 519 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 2: the region I think have really shifted. And I don't 520 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: think Saudi Arabia, as I mentioned at the beginning, because 521 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 2: they put out statements to this effect, I don't think 522 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 2: they're at all interested in this kind of move right 523 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 2: at this point. So I just maybe I would only 524 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 2: add that Trump is not playing this long game that 525 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 2: we think he is. 526 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 4: Maybe we can take him at his word. 527 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I know, because like Biden was playing a 528 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 3: long game, a dumb long game, but a long game 529 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,359 Speaker 3: trying to brokers a deal with like Saudi Arabia and 530 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 3: Israel that I might again I think deranged. If there's 531 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: clear evidence that the fact that he was not compassmentous, 532 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,239 Speaker 3: it's that right, But it was a long game and 533 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,200 Speaker 3: I don't think that Trump is I don't think Trump 534 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 3: cares about that. 535 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, And the region has changed so much, you know, 536 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: for whether we like it or not, Like Iran is 537 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: not the threat it used to be, closer ties with 538 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, I mean, has a huge influence 539 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: on the new Syrian government, Like they don't need this, 540 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 2: they don't need this, and like this is not this 541 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 2: kind of long game, multi level chess, you know, mastermind 542 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 2: over here that Trump is now doing. 543 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 4: So yeah, I just wanted to add that. 544 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: People are just doing shit and trying to grab onto 545 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: whatever they. 546 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 4: Can, right and like let's see what sticks, essentially. 547 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 3: Exactly, I mean that, and that is so much of 548 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: that is the entirety of the current plan of the 549 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 3: new regime in the United States is throw everything you 550 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 3: can out there and see what sticks. 551 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: You know. 552 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, they're doing that in Gaza, just like they're doing 553 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: it everywhere else. Well, Donna, thank you so much. Do 554 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 3: you want to plug anything at the end of this, 555 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 3: your own stuff or something else? 556 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 4: Check out I Guess the Fire These Times podcast. I 557 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 4: sometimes do episode for. 558 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 3: Them, Yes, yes, yes, yes. 559 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: And if you're looking for organizations to help support gosins 560 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 2: right now. Heal Palestine or Anara A n e R 561 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 2: are both doing. 562 00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 4: Really crucial work. 563 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 3: Excellent, excellent, we'll check that out. Definitely check out the 564 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 3: fire these times and that's a great place to send 565 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,479 Speaker 3: some aid. Donna, thank you so much for being on 566 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 3: the show again. And yeah, I hope you uh, I 567 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 3: don't know, I hope, I hope. 568 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,720 Speaker 4: I hope that's what I hope. 569 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, thanks for having. 570 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 571 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone met visit our website 572 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 5: Polsonmedia dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 573 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,680 Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 574 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 5: now find sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly 575 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 5: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.