Speaker 1: On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly. HBO series about
Speaker 1: the Showtime Lakers has been criticized for how it portrays
Speaker 1: some key figures, but beyond that, is it any good?
Speaker 1: Alison Herman from The Rigor and Jordan Liggands from The
Speaker 1: Spinster's Podcast joined me to discuss winning Time, and later,
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated Senior writer Howard Beck speaks with NBA legend
Speaker 1: Dirk Nowitzki about his first time in s I. But
Speaker 1: first Opening day is here and we have everything you
Speaker 1: need to know about the new season on our Major
Speaker 1: League Baseball Roundtable with SI staffers Tom Berducci, Stephanie Epstein,
Speaker 1: and Matt Martel. It's April six. I'm your host John
Speaker 1: Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This is
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated Weekly. Major League Baseball is coming back. Within
Speaker 1: the last few minutes, ESPN reports MLB owners and the
Speaker 1: league's players Association have reached a tenant of agreement on
Speaker 1: a new labor deal. I have to say, I am
Speaker 1: genuinely thrilled to be able to say that Major League
Speaker 1: Baseball is back and we're gonna play a hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty two games. Major League Baseball is Opening Day is
Speaker 1: finally upon us, and to discuss that, we have S
Speaker 1: I S Baseball brain trust here writer's Tom Verducci, Stephanie Apstein,
Speaker 1: and editor Matt Mark tell Gang. Welcome to Sports Illustrative Weekly.
Speaker 1: Great to be here, Thanks for having us. So this
Speaker 1: offseason was all about labor strife and the lockout and
Speaker 1: the c b A and very little about baseball. And
Speaker 1: so I'm wondering, Stephanie, because you were at so many
Speaker 1: different clubs for spring training and you got to talk
Speaker 1: to fans and players, do you think baseball hurt itself
Speaker 1: with the off season it had. I think that baseball
Speaker 1: heard itself less than I expected it too. And I
Speaker 1: think that because they're going to get in a full season,
Speaker 1: fans don't really care. I think if they had lost games,
Speaker 1: this would be a huge problem. But at the moment, really,
Speaker 1: the only people being inconvenienced by this, or the people
Speaker 1: involved in the sport who have to cram hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty two days games into a one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: five game schedule, the fans I ran into its spring training.
Speaker 1: At least, we're just happy to be there. The changes
Speaker 1: in the cb A, they don't think really affect them.
Speaker 1: So I think only the most hardcore of people care
Speaker 1: that much about what happened, and those people probably aren't
Speaker 1: going anywhere. I guess we'll see down the road if
Speaker 1: attendance is down and if viewership is down, But at
Speaker 1: least for the people who were at spring training, those
Speaker 1: people are seemed to be pretty happy to have this
Speaker 1: work back. Yeah, and you mentioned like cramming an entire
Speaker 1: season into a shorter window. Matt, How does the lockout
Speaker 1: impact the schedule? I know that the Philadelphia Phillies, as
Speaker 1: everybody who listens to this program knows, I am contractually
Speaker 1: obligated to mention my hometown Philadelphia every time we do
Speaker 1: the show. But they play thirteen straight days to start
Speaker 1: the season. So what kind of impact will that have
Speaker 1: on some of these teams. It's hard to say exactly
Speaker 1: how it's going to impact certain teams. It might come
Speaker 1: down to who plays the Orioles the most and at
Speaker 1: what time of the year. So the schedule is going
Speaker 1: to be changed. You're gonna have Opening Day with the
Speaker 1: Yankees and the Red Sox, so there could be certain
Speaker 1: matchups that you wouldn't typically see early in the year.
Speaker 1: Later in the year, you're gonna be cramming off. Days
Speaker 1: are going to be a little bit different, but the
Speaker 1: schedule is going to be different, and it's going to
Speaker 1: be a grind. As Step was saying you very tacitly
Speaker 1: through some shade at the Orioles there, which I love,
Speaker 1: and that's something that I want to bring up with you,
Speaker 1: Tom that part of the conversation when the lockout was
Speaker 1: happening was about how to improve competitive balance. And we've
Speaker 1: seen some teams this offseason, the A's, particularly the Reds
Speaker 1: as well, sell off some players and roughly a fifth
Speaker 1: of the league looks like it's content just to keep
Speaker 1: cutting payroll. And a former colleague of mine and a friend,
Speaker 1: Mike Bauman from The Ringer, pointed out that the Ottawa Senators,
Speaker 1: who are this irrelevant small market hockey franchise, will be
Speaker 1: spending more on payroll this season than about of major
Speaker 1: league baseball team. So I'm wondering, in your estimation how
Speaker 1: big a problem this is for baseball when when we
Speaker 1: look at competitive balance and some of these teams deciding yeah,
Speaker 1: we're good as is. Yeah, it's interesting because I think
Speaker 1: it's really a problem when you have teams that decide
Speaker 1: for five or six years, we're not even gonna try
Speaker 1: to win, And they think that's a good strategy. If
Speaker 1: you're a fan, you just love the game of baseball,
Speaker 1: you can't abide by that, right, So we don't want
Speaker 1: that situation. But the fact is there's always losing teams.
Speaker 1: There always will be. For every other win, there has
Speaker 1: to be another loss, and we're seeing that this age
Speaker 1: is not that different. I mean, last year you had
Speaker 1: eleven teams within ninety or more games, and the team
Speaker 1: that won the World Series wasn't one of them, was
Speaker 1: the Braves. So I think in the aggregate, yeah, I
Speaker 1: think competitive balance is actually pretty good around baseball right now.
Speaker 1: I mean I think right now you can probably write
Speaker 1: off at the max, I'd say nine or ten teams
Speaker 1: that don't have a shot at the postseason, So say
Speaker 1: twenty or twenty one teams competing for twelve playoffs spots.
Speaker 1: That's not terrible. I think baseball is in a pretty
Speaker 1: good shape in terms of competitive balance. I will say
Speaker 1: it's step brought up a good point here. If we
Speaker 1: lost games on this season, that would have been disastrous.
Speaker 1: But I do think there's a price to pay for
Speaker 1: the lockout, there's no runway leading up to this season.
Speaker 1: Obviously the lockout played a part here, But is this
Speaker 1: lack of buzz about baseball just sort of an accumulation
Speaker 1: of things over the years. What has happened with baseball?
Speaker 1: Where you know, it's America's pastime, but there hasn't been
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about baseball except where there was
Speaker 1: the labor negotiation and now, as Tom said, all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, baseball starting again. Yeah. I think society changed
Speaker 1: a lot and baseball didn't change a lot except to
Speaker 1: get slower. So the inverse of a good product these
Speaker 1: days entertainment world is what baseball has been doing, and
Speaker 1: that is giving people less action over a longer period
Speaker 1: of time. That's just a terrible formula. Now, I think
Speaker 1: there's things in place now to change that, and I
Speaker 1: think baseball has got a real opportunity to turn a
Speaker 1: corner starting with this season. But yeah, baseball fell behind
Speaker 1: because society just changed so much. And it is the
Speaker 1: attention an economy. We only have so much attention to
Speaker 1: give and there's so many things voyuing for it. Baseball
Speaker 1: is not really event oriented. I mean, the biggest thing
Speaker 1: that happened last year, in my opinion for baseball was
Speaker 1: the Field of Dreams game. It was unbelievable. It was
Speaker 1: I candy on your television. We've kept our promise. Major
Speaker 1: League Baseball has kept its promise the dreams Still there's
Speaker 1: probably just one question to answer, is this heaven? I
Speaker 1: don't think I heard you. Is this heaven? Yes? It is.
Speaker 1: It was an event. You know, when you play a
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two games, thirty teams, there's not too
Speaker 1: many tent pole events in the course of a baseball season,
Speaker 1: like you're going to get with the NFL with one
Speaker 1: game a week. So about that, you had mentioned baseball
Speaker 1: thinking about this trying to address some of these issues, Stephanie,
Speaker 1: do you think any of the changes that baseball made
Speaker 1: during the off season will help on that front. I mean,
Speaker 1: we've got the universal d H happening expanded postseason. I
Speaker 1: know that there was the memo that's was sent out
Speaker 1: about sticky substances, which you know, I like, if you're
Speaker 1: not cheating, you ain't trying. What do we think here?
Speaker 1: I think it's all a start. I actually think the
Speaker 1: change that's going to mean the most is limiting the
Speaker 1: number of pictures on the roster. We're not going to
Speaker 1: see that until May because the way that the lock
Speaker 1: up affected pictures ramp ups, as as Thomas saying, the
Speaker 1: games are gonna be terrible, and it's in part because
Speaker 1: the players are not totally ready for the season. Since
Speaker 1: they weren't sure when the season was going to start,
Speaker 1: a lot of them did not ramp up appropriately. It's
Speaker 1: like some of them were saying, you know, they thought
Speaker 1: it was gonna go till May, and so they just
Speaker 1: weren't really ready. They're going to have a lot more
Speaker 1: pictures on staff. I mean some people are talking about
Speaker 1: opening with sixteen even more than that pictures. Uh So
Speaker 1: for the first month it's going to be rough. But
Speaker 1: after that, limiting the number of pictures on the roster
Speaker 1: I think is huge because it makes it harder to do.
Speaker 1: In addition to the three batter minimum, pictures are going
Speaker 1: to have to throw a little bit longer, which means
Speaker 1: they probably can't throw a quays hard, which means it
Speaker 1: might be a little easier to hit. And so I
Speaker 1: think that is that's the change I'm most looking forward
Speaker 1: to seeing because that's something we've been talking about for
Speaker 1: a while. But the pandemic Panderhard Institute, and so I
Speaker 1: think that's going to have an effect. I'll be interested
Speaker 1: to see if it actually does. Do we like the
Speaker 1: universal d H and the expanded postseason? I'm curious how
Speaker 1: you guys feel about that, especially with the expanded postseason,
Speaker 1: what with twelve teams that works out to roughly. I
Speaker 1: was told to be no math. I used words for
Speaker 1: a living for a reason. Numbers are not my four two.
Speaker 1: But I believe that works out. Do we like these
Speaker 1: two things? I actually like the expanded playoffs the one
Speaker 1: thing in there. I guess there are two things specifically
Speaker 1: that I don't like about it, and I really like
Speaker 1: the one game wild card. As we were talking about
Speaker 1: getting baseball to have events, I thought that it was
Speaker 1: really cool to have specific events. Yankees Red Sox played
Speaker 1: last year. The Dodgers had won a hundred and six
Speaker 1: games and could have lost to the Cardinals, who were
Speaker 1: scorching hot in September. So I like the event of that.
Speaker 1: But I do understand the idea of you play a
Speaker 1: hunter six two games, Why are we going to let
Speaker 1: it come down to one wild card game. At the
Speaker 1: same time, this goes into the other thing, that I'm
Speaker 1: not particularly a fan of is the elimination of the
Speaker 1: play in game. If you're tied after a hundred and
Speaker 1: six two games, so there will be no more game
Speaker 1: one sixty three, and that is something. Again, Baseball needs events,
Speaker 1: and that's one way to create it. I think that
Speaker 1: it is a good thing, though, if you haven't expanded playoffs,
Speaker 1: and maybe a team that hasn't made the playoffs in
Speaker 1: twenty years or in the Phillies case, ten, they have
Speaker 1: a chance to get in now. I mean, but I
Speaker 1: was even talking about the Baroners who nearly made it
Speaker 1: last year. So this does open the door a little
Speaker 1: bit for fan bases to get excited, so long as
Speaker 1: their teams are actually going for it and trying to
Speaker 1: get to that last spot. Tom, you want to tackle
Speaker 1: the d H component, Yeah, I mean it's a losing battle, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I'm a fan of letter writing and
Speaker 1: that's never coming back, right. I mean, things move on,
Speaker 1: and I get it. I mean pictures, a lot of
Speaker 1: them nowadays. Kids are nine or ten years old aren't
Speaker 1: hitting or they become special as pictures at that point.
Speaker 1: So the hitting of pictures has gotten worse and worse
Speaker 1: in general, I'm a huge fan of National League baseball.
Speaker 1: It's a much better game. It is chess and the
Speaker 1: American League is checkers. And don't try to tell me
Speaker 1: there's more strategy in the American League because the pictures
Speaker 1: spot doesn't come around, so it's not as obvious when
Speaker 1: to hit for your picture. That's bologny. There's so much
Speaker 1: more strategy in the National League game, and we will
Speaker 1: miss that. Next year we'll be getting to a more
Speaker 1: balanced schedule where every team will play every other team.
Speaker 1: You'll be playing by the same rules. I was a
Speaker 1: fan of asymmetry. If we didn't like the d H,
Speaker 1: you had the National League. If you wanted a d H,
Speaker 1: you had the American League. Now it's just the same
Speaker 1: ice cream flavor for everybody. Yeah, I like this take Tom,
Speaker 1: and I want these kids to get off my lawn too.
Speaker 1: But I guess we're well past that point. This is
Speaker 1: kind of a downer of an interview where we're just
Speaker 1: saying all the things that is wrong with baseball because
Speaker 1: we're talking about labor. Yeah, we're talking about labor. All
Speaker 1: the things that they need to fix. The season is starting.
Speaker 1: Opening day is here as again as people listen to this.
Speaker 1: So let's go around the horn. Give people a reason
Speaker 1: why you guys anything while you're excited about the season
Speaker 1: starting in baseball being back, have you looked at the
Speaker 1: top of the Angels batting order, show Hey Otani leading
Speaker 1: off followed by Mike Trout. I mean that is amazing.
Speaker 1: Last year Trout Otani renda on playing only seventeen games
Speaker 1: together because of injuries. Right, Otani just goes off with
Speaker 1: I think the most amazing season in the history of baseball.
Speaker 1: It can actually be better this year. If you give
Speaker 1: me a whole year of Otani and Trout together, I mean,
Speaker 1: my goodness. I mean that's must c TV. I mean that,
Speaker 1: to me is the biggest draw baseball. The Dodgers are
Speaker 1: the best team, but the most exciting team to watch
Speaker 1: is going to be that Angel's lineup. They've added guys
Speaker 1: that could make that team better. And what's better than
Speaker 1: seeing the most exciting, entertaining team in baseball in the playoffs.
Speaker 1: I think they got a shot this year. Um. Other
Speaker 1: thing that I'm really looking forward to is I'm really
Speaker 1: excited to see Hopper Pools back at the Cardinals. I
Speaker 1: want to see one more season I want to see
Speaker 1: him just face left handed pitching. And one of my
Speaker 1: favorite statistical quirks is that Albert Pools has one fewer
Speaker 1: stolen base than he has sacrifice flies in his career.
Speaker 1: I'm looking to see if he can get that stolen
Speaker 1: base mark over sack flies for his career. Run Albert,
Speaker 1: run you, Matt. He has not been caught years, So
Speaker 1: let's see if this happens on the other coast. The
Speaker 1: one I'm excited to watch is the Blue Jays, and
Speaker 1: I'm excited for Blue Jays fans that they finally get
Speaker 1: to watch this team in person for a whole season.
Speaker 1: You know that because of the pandemic, they were in
Speaker 1: Dune Ed and they were in Buffalo. They've been basically
Speaker 1: everywhere but Toronto in a way that their fans can
Speaker 1: be a full capacity in the ballpark to watch. So
Speaker 1: I think this really fun young team will actually get
Speaker 1: the home crowd that it deserves. I think it's gonna
Speaker 1: be fun to watch them react to a home crowd
Speaker 1: reacting to them. Let's look at the two different leagues
Speaker 1: before we cut you, guys lose. I was at a
Speaker 1: cook out this weekend. I was talking to a fan
Speaker 1: from the York a friend of mine who is a
Speaker 1: friend despite being from New York, and he's a big
Speaker 1: Yankees packer, and he was just trashing them, and I
Speaker 1: was trying to parse whether or not he was just
Speaker 1: being a New Yorker and complaining or if he has
Speaker 1: reason to grape. So in the a L including the Yankees,
Speaker 1: who do we like? Well? I do like the Yankees.
Speaker 1: I think they're much better defensively, and I think that's
Speaker 1: gonna make their pitching staff a lot better. I really do.
Speaker 1: And I think they have a fewer fewer strikeouts than
Speaker 1: they had last year, which is going to help. They'll
Speaker 1: hit their usual number of home runs. So but that
Speaker 1: American League East is a bear man, and I'm with Steph.
Speaker 1: The Blue Jays, to me, are one of the most
Speaker 1: fun teams to watch. They swing the bat and like
Speaker 1: they swing it often they get up there hacking, so
Speaker 1: they're fun to watch. But keep your eye on the race.
Speaker 1: I mean, we spell all this winter as we usually do,
Speaker 1: talking about money, and the Mets and the Dodgers are
Speaker 1: way out in front of everybody in payroll and they're
Speaker 1: really good teams. But the race somehow get it done. Man,
Speaker 1: and they find a way. And I think the fact
Speaker 1: that they got in it for Freddy Raham in a
Speaker 1: little bit tells me that this team has one move
Speaker 1: left in them during the course of this season, because
Speaker 1: they know their windows probably not really big. It's probably
Speaker 1: closing pretty soon. And if you haven't seen Wander Franco play,
Speaker 1: my goodness that that guy is amazing. So keep your
Speaker 1: eye on the Rays. And I would say the Houston
Speaker 1: Astros too, are really as good as they were last year,
Speaker 1: especially Verlander. I saw him pitch in spring training. They
Speaker 1: looked terrific. They also have the benefit of a division
Speaker 1: in which the A's are no longer trying at all,
Speaker 1: and so the you know, the teams in the East
Speaker 1: I think are probably on the whole better than the
Speaker 1: rest of the league, but they all have to Other
Speaker 1: than the Orioles, they don't really have an easy road,
Speaker 1: and the Astros get to play. I mean, the Angels
Speaker 1: look a lot better, but the Astros in the Central
Speaker 1: teams have some easier schedules for sure. As far as
Speaker 1: exciting teams go, I am kind of interested in those
Speaker 1: white socks still. I am really excited to see a
Speaker 1: full year of Luiz Robert. I think he is a
Speaker 1: star and I am ready to see see him just
Speaker 1: feast on some of the lesser pitchers in the American
Speaker 1: League Central. I also think that that you might see
Speaker 1: a surprisingly good season from the Detroit Tigers. They have
Speaker 1: a lot of good young players who might be closer
Speaker 1: than we think to being stars. They have a really
Speaker 1: good young pitching staff. They just signed Xavier Bias, who's
Speaker 1: always exciting. UM. I am really interested to see how
Speaker 1: long they can contend. Maybe they're similar to the way
Speaker 1: the Mariners were last year in it very very late
Speaker 1: into the year, and let's go back to the Mariners
Speaker 1: one more time. I am really excited in seeing some
Speaker 1: of those young guys. I want to see Kellnick. He
Speaker 1: seemed to make adjustments down towards the end of the year.
Speaker 1: I want to see him put it together. I love
Speaker 1: Julio Rodriguez. I want to see him. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of good, at least interesting teams to watch in the
Speaker 1: American League. And as Tom said, the Yankees are better defensively,
Speaker 1: so we'll see what happens. It's gonna be a fun race,
Speaker 1: and this is where we should probably throw in our
Speaker 1: obligatory Phillies reference. Look at this, you should be hosting
Speaker 1: the show because I was just about to pivot to this,
Speaker 1: and I ask you guys about the n L. Everybody
Speaker 1: knows that Dodgers are loaded and the defending champs Atlanta
Speaker 1: let Freeman walk. But I'm wondering what you guys think
Speaker 1: about the n L, and Tom, I expect that this
Speaker 1: is where you're gonna pump up the Phillies. Well, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to make of the Phillies other than
Speaker 1: they're gonna be fun to watch. I mean, they're gonna
Speaker 1: score a ton of runs. If you go a get
Speaker 1: up against the Phillies with the back half of your rotation,
Speaker 1: look out, man, they will just pummel you. But I
Speaker 1: still don't think they catch the ball well enough to
Speaker 1: be a postseason team. I really don't. They'll be fun
Speaker 1: to watch, don't get me wrong, and they'll be a contender,
Speaker 1: but to really be a playoff team in a tough
Speaker 1: National league with a really poor defense, that's gonna be
Speaker 1: hard for them to do. But you have to like
Speaker 1: the Dodgers, though, to me, some things are just too obvious.
Speaker 1: We're trying to split hairs and look for granular things,
Speaker 1: who's good, who's not. The Dodgers are loaded, man, and
Speaker 1: they have a really good farm system too. They get
Speaker 1: some players you're gonna see in the second half of
Speaker 1: the season, especially in the pitching staff, so it's hard
Speaker 1: to go against the chalk with the Dodgers. I was
Speaker 1: skeptical about the Giants before I got there, and maybe
Speaker 1: they're just doing a pretty good job of selling people
Speaker 1: who show up in person. But I came away thinking,
Speaker 1: you know what, the Giants have another hundred one season
Speaker 1: and them, which seems outrageous to say, given how hard
Speaker 1: it is to one hundred games and sort of the
Speaker 1: personnel that the Dodgers can roll out. Yeah, I am
Speaker 1: interested in the n Os specifically because the Patres could
Speaker 1: have a reverse year that they had last year. They
Speaker 1: might start slow, they don't have Tattoos for a little while,
Speaker 1: but if they're still in contention and he comes back,
Speaker 1: they could make a run for it late. I still
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to pick them to make
Speaker 1: the playoffs, but they could make a run towards the end,
Speaker 1: especially if they play a little more consistent their pitching
Speaker 1: staff doesn't burn out down towards the end of the year.
Speaker 1: I like the Phillies a lot. I mean I I
Speaker 1: think that they've been so close these last couple of years,
Speaker 1: and they have gotten better. Tom's right, they will not
Speaker 1: catch the ball, but they're gonna be fun to watch.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you, guys. I didn't hear
Speaker 1: a single thing you guys said about It's already been deleted,
Speaker 1: the part where you said the Phillies can't catch and
Speaker 1: they're in a tough division. All I heard was Tom
Speaker 1: saying that they'd be fun and they'd be contenders, and
Speaker 1: we will leave it there. Read them on SI dot com,
Speaker 1: and we will have them back on Sports Illustrated weekly
Speaker 1: throughout the season. Tom Ferduci, Matt Martell, and Stephanie Epstein,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for us. After a break, we
Speaker 1: discussed HBO's Lakers series winning time. Before this season, we
Speaker 1: thought I was done. Now I want more than anything
Speaker 1: in a long time. We're thirteen games in. We got
Speaker 1: lightning in a bottom. The Lakers are the team of
Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. I want, Like a lot of NBA fans,
Speaker 1: When HBO announced that it would turn a book by
Speaker 1: Jeff Perlman about the Showtime era Lakers into a new
Speaker 1: prestige drama called Winning Time. I was overjoyed sex, drugs,
Speaker 1: and basketball, Yes and pleads. But while Winning Time has
Speaker 1: taken some heat for certain treatments, especially the way Jason
Speaker 1: Clark has portrayed NBA Hall of Famer Jerry West, I've
Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about what the show gets right
Speaker 1: and where it goes wrong. So to figure all that out,
Speaker 1: I enlisted two friends and former co workers, bringer TV
Speaker 1: critic Allison Herman and NBA analyst Jordan Liggands from The
Speaker 1: Spinster's podcast. I have gathered us all here today to
Speaker 1: discuss a show that had a lot of hype around it,
Speaker 1: a prestige show on HBO with a prominent running slot,
Speaker 1: and everybody was talking about at Winning Time, which is
Speaker 1: about the Lakers Showtime era. So I guess I'll start
Speaker 1: with this. Alison, you go first. Is the show any good?
Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost too early to tell, which
Speaker 1: is a very weird thing to say about a show
Speaker 1: that is almost halfway into its highly anticipated first season.
Speaker 1: It is proceeding, and I think almost a shockingly leisurely
Speaker 1: pace for a show about this time period, about this
Speaker 1: team whose literal philosophy was fast break basketball. So you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of very pivotal developments in the history of
Speaker 1: this period in the Lakers are still in the offing
Speaker 1: and if yet to happen, and they're still doing a
Speaker 1: lot of set up, and I think that's contributed to
Speaker 1: the kind of tepid reception. I feel like the show
Speaker 1: has gotten so far. Jordan is a Lakers fan steeped
Speaker 1: in the history of the franchise. I feel like this
Speaker 1: should hit a real sweet spot for you. Where do
Speaker 1: you stand on it? It does. I finished the last
Speaker 1: episode and as soon as the credits rolled, I was like,
Speaker 1: this is fun, Like I'm entertained. It's fun to watch,
Speaker 1: and it's I don't know what's true. I don't know
Speaker 1: it's not true. I'm googling the whole time. But the
Speaker 1: basketball part of it and the entertainment value, the fashion,
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is a good time, and I think
Speaker 1: that's what it's supposed to relay, you know, as a
Speaker 1: viewing watching experience, as a basketball fan. I think the
Speaker 1: basketball part and the history you know of the franchise
Speaker 1: and the coaches and trying to pinpoint where in the
Speaker 1: timeline we are is also fun, but also just on
Speaker 1: a sit back and watch, I'm like, this is entertainment.
Speaker 1: I think I'm in the weird position of almost knowing
Speaker 1: more of the what's true what's not of it all
Speaker 1: than the actual die hard Lakers fan on this podcast,
Speaker 1: because you know, I'd like to think I'm a little
Speaker 1: aware of my of my blind spots as a critic, So, um,
Speaker 1: I did not come into this with a lot of
Speaker 1: basketball knowledge, so I made sure to read the Pearlman
Speaker 1: book Showtime, on which the show is based, and comparing
Speaker 1: the two makes it really interesting because I mean I
Speaker 1: mentioned the pacing. Pearlman's book covers ten whole years, and
Speaker 1: it becomes very clear over the course of watching this
Speaker 1: season of TV that it does not plan to get
Speaker 1: much further than like the calendar your nine nine. So
Speaker 1: it's very weird to kind of hold up the source
Speaker 1: material against the actual storytelling in this case. Initially when
Speaker 1: the show came out, there was some bus Since then
Speaker 1: less buzz, but at the beginning there was some buzz,
Speaker 1: but it was largely negative. And when you're talking about
Speaker 1: the source material of the book, the characters and the people,
Speaker 1: the real life people who Perlman writes about were portrayed
Speaker 1: in one way in the book and in a decidedly
Speaker 1: different way in the show. And I'm thinking specifically and
Speaker 1: mainly about Jason Clark's portrayal of one Jerry West, which is,
Speaker 1: let's say aggressive, Yeah, why don't you ask him? Well,
Speaker 1: this is the third year straight. I've been begging for
Speaker 1: a solid four. But he won't bomb me. Spencer Hayward,
Speaker 1: he's too expensive not to mention. He attracts a certain element,
Speaker 1: you know that holding back to Africa, my Larkey, that's
Speaker 1: und like basketball, do you is business? Jerry mingo ding ding,
Speaker 1: that's what you won't read your sports pages. I love
Speaker 1: Jason Clark. I think he's fun in it. He is
Speaker 1: intense as hell. I suspect through various media reports and
Speaker 1: people I have talked to, the real Jerry West not
Speaker 1: exactly thrilled about this poor trial. What have you two
Speaker 1: made of Jason Clark's performance in that role. I actually
Speaker 1: really enjoy it, and I think it's an example of
Speaker 1: the show actually filling in the gaps of the book
Speaker 1: in a lot of really helpful ways. The show really
Speaker 1: makes a meal of the fact that this is like
Speaker 1: a chronically depressed dude from West Virginia with all that
Speaker 1: sails and really makes the most of that. And I
Speaker 1: think Jason Clark's Jerry West is a good example of that.
Speaker 1: And I think also the way the show treats Genie Buss,
Speaker 1: who is a seventeen year old so in real life
Speaker 1: did not have like a huge pivotal role to play
Speaker 1: in the Lakers operation at that point in time, but
Speaker 1: the show really uses her for the emotional impact of
Speaker 1: you know, her father's the owner of the team, and
Speaker 1: so I think like those two performances really symbolized to
Speaker 1: me the show trying to avoid what I called in
Speaker 1: my review the Wikipedia trap, where it's just kind of
Speaker 1: running back the highlights of stuff we're aware of because
Speaker 1: it's in the historical record. Jordan, how do you feel
Speaker 1: about I mean, channel Jerry West here? How are you
Speaker 1: feeling if you're Jerry West watching Jason Clark chew up
Speaker 1: all the scenery on your behalf. Um, I'm sure a
Speaker 1: TV is broken in their house or something, just throwing
Speaker 1: something at the television, But I found that so interesting,
Speaker 1: just not knowing a lot about Jerry West personally, but
Speaker 1: as someone watching your like the logo. The logo is
Speaker 1: angry all the time. What or you know? Going back
Speaker 1: into his past a couple episodes we dive into his
Speaker 1: family history and also him just losing year after year,
Speaker 1: I would think you would be angry. So the portrayal
Speaker 1: makes sense. I think it's surprised a lot of people.
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised that his camp and his family is
Speaker 1: not so happy with this portrayal. But being able to
Speaker 1: see this inside look of this envisioned drama version, I
Speaker 1: love it. Give me all of it. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: for us, it's great, but as you mentioned, there's been
Speaker 1: some pushback from his camp for people around him. Jerry
Speaker 1: West has been largely silent on this, but a lot
Speaker 1: of people around Jerry West and other people who have
Speaker 1: been portrayed have not exactly been thrilled about this. But
Speaker 1: I want to go through each of the individual performances
Speaker 1: that stand out. Before I do that, though, I want
Speaker 1: to bring in our resident Clippers fan, our producer, Isaac Lee. Isaac,
Speaker 1: you have not seen this show. I suspect I know why.
Speaker 1: But what does your general feeling on people not being
Speaker 1: thrilled with this HBO Prestige show about your hated rival
Speaker 1: Los Angeles Lakers. I see Jordan rolling her eyes right now.
Speaker 1: I think there are thirty NBA fan bases, and twenty
Speaker 1: nine of those fan bases aren't necessarily naturally attracted to
Speaker 1: a massibratory celebration of the Los Angeles Lakers glory days. Uh.
Speaker 1: I think that the Lakers have already been celebrated to death.
Speaker 1: Even me, you know, I the hatred of the Los
Speaker 1: Angeles Lakers is what fuels my daily life and my
Speaker 1: existence on this planet. Gets you out of bed in
Speaker 1: the morning. Even I wouldn't deny that they are the
Speaker 1: greatest NBA franchise. Celtics fans would have something to say
Speaker 1: about that, but I would say, yeah, of course, the
Speaker 1: Lakers are the greatest franchise and NBA one of the
Speaker 1: most recognizable brands in sports. It's not disputed. So why
Speaker 1: are we doing this again? Why are we being like, oh,
Speaker 1: the Lakers are so great? The Lakers are so great
Speaker 1: by the way, Jerry West at the logo now Clippers executive, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to point that out now. Fighting for
Speaker 1: the enemy. I will tell you, though, Isaac, I think
Speaker 1: you would be pleasantly surprised because you're talking about this
Speaker 1: show as though it FETs and celebrates the Lakers, and
Speaker 1: I would submit to you that it frequently does not.
Speaker 1: It does not paint most of these people in the
Speaker 1: best light, which brings me to let's run through some
Speaker 1: of these portrayals and how we feel about the actors
Speaker 1: and the performances. And you had mentioned the Boston Celtics
Speaker 1: and whether or not the Boston Celtics are one of
Speaker 1: the greatest franchises in the NBA history, and they certainly
Speaker 1: are one of But what are performance I think? And
Speaker 1: we'll start off Alison with Michael Checklist as Red Auerbach,
Speaker 1: who just he's got the cigar and the whole bit,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was delightful. I think he does
Speaker 1: a great job. This may be jumping the gun a
Speaker 1: little bit, but while we're on the subject of the Celtics,
Speaker 1: I personally feel robbed and deprived and depleted that Bo Burnham,
Speaker 1: a great tall white man from Massachuset, it's is not
Speaker 1: playing Larry Bird as he was set to. At one
Speaker 1: point in time. I thought, no, no, no, it's a
Speaker 1: different actor. And I think the actor they cast actually
Speaker 1: looks more like the real Larry Bird. But it just
Speaker 1: it's like a small dagger in my heart every time
Speaker 1: he shows up on screen. Um, I do think the
Speaker 1: red hour back figure is good, although you know, contrary
Speaker 1: to your point, he's kind of cast as this like
Speaker 1: minicky and like satanic figure. And Jerry Buss is this
Speaker 1: David and Goliath hero type. Jordan, I want to run
Speaker 1: a couple more past you here. What about Adrian Brody
Speaker 1: as pat Riley. Pat Riley not yet the coach, just
Speaker 1: trying to like figure out his way in the world.
Speaker 1: All I've haven't done is work. I worked my whole life. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's all I'm done, day and night at work. I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, pat Riley wasn't always this stylish fox
Speaker 1: and the white suit from the Last Dance at all times?
Speaker 1: Like I love us being able to see the glow
Speaker 1: up and how he kind of started from the bottom
Speaker 1: and and becomes the pat Riley that we know. Um,
Speaker 1: but now he's like gathering tape and filming practices and
Speaker 1: getting beat up at venice pickup games. I just love
Speaker 1: the character, and especially you know, being a fan and
Speaker 1: knowing what's to come, it's fun to enjoy the like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know you're gonna be great, but right now you
Speaker 1: kind of you don't have a job. You're trying to
Speaker 1: like pass out resumes and beg people for a job.
Speaker 1: That's that's the entertaining part for me, because we know
Speaker 1: it's going to work out another one for you, Alison,
Speaker 1: you would mention Genie Buss. In real life, Genie Buss
Speaker 1: would not have appeared this soon, right because Genie Buss
Speaker 1: actually was working on a pro tennis operation for her
Speaker 1: father at the time. But in the show, they bring
Speaker 1: her in and incorporate her right from the beginning. So
Speaker 1: what do you make of what they've done? What Genie
Speaker 1: Buss has played by Hadley Robinson. I really enjoy it because,
Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I think they use it to
Speaker 1: talk about the parts of the show that are not
Speaker 1: just like the x as and ohs of like how
Speaker 1: did these people form a strategy to win a basketball championship?
Speaker 1: Like the show ultimately wants to be behind the scenes
Speaker 1: and about people, and in fact, has I would say,
Speaker 1: like shockingly little on the court basketball potentially, because you know,
Speaker 1: the people they've cast as Magic Johnson and Kareem mondel
Speaker 1: Jabar are amazing, but they are not literally the greatest
Speaker 1: basketball players of all time. But I think what they
Speaker 1: do with Genie is they make her a window into
Speaker 1: how Jerry Buss, who's this like larger than life womanizing figure,
Speaker 1: ends up coming across to the people in his life
Speaker 1: who don't just see the flashy public persona and are
Speaker 1: kind of aware of the hustling it takes for him
Speaker 1: to maintain this image and kind of force entry into
Speaker 1: this elite club of sports owners. And I actually do
Speaker 1: really like the ambivalence they work in by way of Genie,
Speaker 1: but towards you know, part of the showtime image wasn't
Speaker 1: just the play on the court. It was the Laker
Speaker 1: girls and the Forum Club and all the stuff that
Speaker 1: went out down in the Forum Club that I don't
Speaker 1: know how much they're gonna show on TV, but you
Speaker 1: know it's probably pretty HBO friendly. Jordan's before we decided
Speaker 1: to do this recording together, I gave you a prompt.
Speaker 1: It's the reason I'm watching the show and having such
Speaker 1: a good time with it. Please talk to me about
Speaker 1: John c Riley as Jerry Boss and his resplendent chest hair.
Speaker 1: Chris splendent, Yes, I thought you were just talking about
Speaker 1: the chest hair as a character that whole shirt, because
Speaker 1: I really think it is. At one point I was watching,
Speaker 1: I'm like, why why even have on a shirt at
Speaker 1: this point? The buttons are so low? Yeah too at
Speaker 1: the bottom again, that just goes to the fashion. I'm
Speaker 1: all about it. I'm all about him, you know, doing
Speaker 1: a hair to Royal in the middle of an episode
Speaker 1: about how he slips it over and then he jumps
Speaker 1: in the pool at one point of the training camp
Speaker 1: and you just see it just turned into a frow
Speaker 1: and missed the fy away. But I think we've all
Speaker 1: heard the story that Will Ferrell was supposed to be
Speaker 1: in this role of Dr Bus and I just don't
Speaker 1: think that would have worked. I just wouldn't have believed it.
Speaker 1: This was made for John c Riley, Like, it really
Speaker 1: was made for him. You're doing a great job all
Speaker 1: this alight, keep working on the show. That's what's going
Speaker 1: to pack him in. I gotta get this butter off me.
Speaker 1: I'm going in enjoy. He is funny, it's entertaining. I
Speaker 1: believe him as this savior of the Lakers. Like I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: he's gonna save the franchise. Let's get you know, let's
Speaker 1: go for it. Not for Cocktail exactly. He is a womanizer.
Speaker 1: I think it does address the time and how he
Speaker 1: was different than all these stuffy other owners and executives
Speaker 1: that were all about basketball and he did come and
Speaker 1: bring something different. And I think just as a character,
Speaker 1: he is everything and the show is centered around him,
Speaker 1: as it should be. I mean, speaking of casting, that
Speaker 1: wouldn't have worked before. It was maybe going to be
Speaker 1: Will Ferrell, it was definitely going to be Michael Shannon, which,
Speaker 1: like I cannot imagine Nelson van Alden, you know, revolutionary
Speaker 1: Road himself doing sex symbol, party animal, fun guy Jerry
Speaker 1: Buss and I love John c Riley in this role
Speaker 1: for so many reasons. But I feel like he obviously
Speaker 1: as an incredible range and an actor, I don't know
Speaker 1: if I've ever seen him be like sexy and like
Speaker 1: charismatic in this way, and it really sells the way
Speaker 1: that he's you know, obviously unconventional in that way, like
Speaker 1: he wears a hairpiece, he's older, he's this like dude
Speaker 1: from Wyoming who has a science doctorate but made his
Speaker 1: money in real estate. But like he just has this
Speaker 1: overwhelming star power that makes him able to be BFFs
Speaker 1: with like a nineteen year old rookie NBA player from
Speaker 1: East Lansing, Michigan, and you're like, I totally see how
Speaker 1: those guys see ied I and yeah, I agree. Just
Speaker 1: knowing the multiple alternate scenarios, I think we ended up
Speaker 1: with the best one. Absolutely. If if this actually did
Speaker 1: created the relationship between Well Ferrell and Adam McKay, I'm
Speaker 1: glad for it. Thank you John c Riley for ruining
Speaker 1: their friendship, because yes, and show. I don't look some
Speaker 1: people will think it's good or bad or unnecessary or whatever.
Speaker 1: This show is John c Riley with his one button chest,
Speaker 1: hair out chewing not just all the scenery that he's
Speaker 1: but then all of the rest of the scenery in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles, and I highly recommended for that performance alone.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend reading Allison on The Ringer and listened
Speaker 1: to Jordan and Haley on Spinster's My Friends. Thanks for
Speaker 1: doing this. After a break, NBA legend Dirk Nowitzki speaks
Speaker 1: with s I s Howard Beck five o'clock Bitsky heads
Speaker 1: faced falling away down again. One of the cool things
Speaker 1: about working at Sports Illustrated is the access it gives
Speaker 1: us to big name athletes and as part of a
Speaker 1: recurring segment we've really enjoyed, we've asked a bunch of
Speaker 1: stars about their first time in s I, including Jerry
Speaker 1: Rice and It's Smith, Michael Vick, and a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of others, and now SI senior writer Howard Back conducts
Speaker 1: that same conversation with none other than NBA legend Dirk Nowitzki.
Speaker 1: Disk do you remember your first time in Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether that was my first time, but
Speaker 1: I actually have a uh Sports Illustrated article framed at
Speaker 1: home and we were just hitting our stride with the
Speaker 1: maths with Finlay and Nash, and they wrote a little
Speaker 1: spread on us, and I remember it's actually Sean Bradley
Speaker 1: is in the air and one of the pictures and
Speaker 1: he's contesting a shot and underneath said, dirk Ny Whiskey
Speaker 1: is playing really well. So we were just we were
Speaker 1: not that known yet, so h I didn't take it
Speaker 1: personal anything, but that is uh, that was one of
Speaker 1: the first articles that I remember that Sports Illustrated was,
Speaker 1: you know, having the MAVs on the radar, and that
Speaker 1: was that was a big moment for us that we
Speaker 1: we've come a long way, remember, was that your rookie
Speaker 1: season or a couple of years. That must have been
Speaker 1: a couple of years in because obviously my rookie year
Speaker 1: we didn't really play that well, so it was my
Speaker 1: have been on my my second or third year when
Speaker 1: we're starting to get better and making the playoffs for
Speaker 1: the first time. Do you remember when s I first
Speaker 1: wrote about you specifically? I don't remember that now because
Speaker 1: that one we found here January two thousand, story by
Speaker 1: John Wortheim. It talks about you missing home. It describes Warrisburg,
Speaker 1: which I'm not pronouncing correctly, let's poke, thank you. I
Speaker 1: could not pull that off, and talking about you missing
Speaker 1: home and talking about your hometown, and talking about the
Speaker 1: fact that after a shaky rookie season, though Dirk Navitski
Speaker 1: is kind of starting to find his footing your averaging
Speaker 1: eighteen points a game, at that moment, you're starting to
Speaker 1: break out. Do you remember anything about this one? I don't,
Speaker 1: but it sounds good. I can't believe John has been
Speaker 1: around this long. That's uh, that's sweet. So I don't
Speaker 1: remember that article. That is the fast developing after a
Speaker 1: rookie year in which the negatives prevailed the Mavericks. Dirknovitski
Speaker 1: looks like a budding star. Not the cover that sounds amazing. No,
Speaker 1: not the cover, not the cover, but it's uh Antonio
Speaker 1: Davis is praising you, saying, he sure is something. Isn't
Speaker 1: he shooting, passing, rebounding, He can do it all and
Speaker 1: he's big. I'm surprised because we didn't know much about him.
Speaker 1: People forget back in the day when you came in,
Speaker 1: like a European player comes over, even if they're tagged
Speaker 1: for stardom, we don't know anything about him. There's no YouTube,
Speaker 1: so you were a mystery. Yeah, for sure they found
Speaker 1: me somewhere in the middle of nowhere. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: was it was a hard time to get going. They're beginning.
Speaker 1: Some of My second year was was a lot better
Speaker 1: about my rookie year, you know, as you know, that
Speaker 1: was the lockout year that was that was super tough seed.
Speaker 1: So I'm glad in my second year it's kind of
Speaker 1: helped and broke through a little bit. Did it mean
Speaker 1: something to you at that moment in your early career
Speaker 1: to kind of start to get that national recognition from
Speaker 1: s I or wherever you know, and and uh, old Nells,
Speaker 1: the coach said before my rookie year, he's that I'm
Speaker 1: going to be a Rookie of the Year. So I
Speaker 1: got a lot more national attention that actually wanted my
Speaker 1: first year, and so that put a lot of pressure on.
Speaker 1: But in my second year I was able to calm
Speaker 1: down and and and have some good games, and that
Speaker 1: was good. Come put me and put me on the
Speaker 1: radar for sure. So Worth time set the scene in
Speaker 1: a way about who you were at that time, in
Speaker 1: the sense that you were just, you know, displaced from home.
Speaker 1: You're halfway around the world, missing home and still trying
Speaker 1: to find your footing. How would you describe who you
Speaker 1: were at the moment that that story pops in January
Speaker 1: of two thousand, you know, early in your second season. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it was it was a tough time, but
Speaker 1: I was just starting to play better. I think my
Speaker 1: second year was a little fortunate. We had a we
Speaker 1: had a power forward and his name was Gary Trent,
Speaker 1: and he was playing really well. I'm not sure you
Speaker 1: remember him. He was the least and uh he tore
Speaker 1: his hamstring in training camp and so he missed that
Speaker 1: entire season. So really I was the only power forward
Speaker 1: on on the roster, and I literally played thirty thirty
Speaker 1: five minutes my second year already, and I think that
Speaker 1: helped me a lot, settle in, get used to the
Speaker 1: style of play, and so I was in a way
Speaker 1: better place in January a two thousand than I wasn't
Speaker 1: in ever at any point in my rookie year. And
Speaker 1: I was starting to fill out a little bit and
Speaker 1: my body was more ready for it. So I think
Speaker 1: I was well on my way in in January twenty
Speaker 1: two thousand. Thought it was uh, I was definitely heading
Speaker 1: the right way. The story makes reference to the idea
Speaker 1: that you were fast eclipsing Debtler Shrimp as the best
Speaker 1: basketball export from Germany. Were you feeling any of that
Speaker 1: at the time, and did you once you start to
Speaker 1: find your way in the NBA, are you starting to
Speaker 1: realize not that you could predict what the next eighteen
Speaker 1: years or whatever are going to to do for you,
Speaker 1: or how they're gonna unfold the starting that will come,
Speaker 1: but did you feel that that was possible at that moment?
Speaker 1: Did you start to see it? I mean a little bit.
Speaker 1: I think at the end of my first year, I
Speaker 1: had a couple of good games and I think that
Speaker 1: that showed me, hey, if you work hard and you
Speaker 1: put in all the work, that you can make it. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I didn't think then it was going to be a
Speaker 1: twenty one year career or you know, winning the championship
Speaker 1: and all the accolades obviously that came with that. Uh.
Speaker 1: I was just trying to you know, make it a league,
Speaker 1: make it past the rookie deal. And uh, you know,
Speaker 1: established myself with Stephen Mike has put the put the
Speaker 1: Dallas Mavericks back on the map since you know, in
Speaker 1: the nineties they were a little bit of the laughing stocks.
Speaker 1: So I think that's really what I was focusing on there,
Speaker 1: get better established myself and and uh and put Dallas
Speaker 1: back on the map. And I wasn't really sure where
Speaker 1: that this would lead, but I know if I worked hard,
Speaker 1: I can I can have a future in this league,
Speaker 1: and that you might want to be better than Delae Shremp. Well,
Speaker 1: you know Dead Life had a great career as as
Speaker 1: you know. And he's he's a good friend of mine,
Speaker 1: and uh, he was so nice to me at the
Speaker 1: beginning when I first met him, and I just kind
Speaker 1: of wanted to be my mentor and so I owe
Speaker 1: him a lot. He is a great dude and I
Speaker 1: respect him a lot. Thanks to the Nowitski and Howard Beck.
Speaker 1: You can read Howard on SI dot com and be
Speaker 1: sure to listen to him on the Crossover podcast. We'll
Speaker 1: have links in our show notes. Sports Illustrated Weekly is
Speaker 1: a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For
Speaker 1: more podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: And for more of Sports Illustrated's best stories and podcasts,
Speaker 1: visit SI dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly
Speaker 1: was produced by Cooper McKim, Jessica your Mooski, and Isaac Lee,
Speaker 1: who was also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is
Speaker 1: Dan Bloom. Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me
Speaker 1: John Gonzaltz. Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening, and if you stuck around this long, we
Speaker 1: leave you with this. We will save the best for
Speaker 1: last with one John c Riley and a discussion of
Speaker 1: his chest, hair, will and so so about an hour
Speaker 1: on the chess Caroline. Everything else will be real, real,
Speaker 1: brief