1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly. HBO series about 2 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: the Showtime Lakers has been criticized for how it portrays 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: some key figures, but beyond that, is it any good? 4 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,159 Speaker 1: Alison Herman from The Rigor and Jordan Liggands from The 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: Spinster's Podcast joined me to discuss winning Time, and later, 6 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated Senior writer Howard Beck speaks with NBA legend 7 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,479 Speaker 1: Dirk Nowitzki about his first time in s I. But 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: first Opening day is here and we have everything you 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: need to know about the new season on our Major 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: League Baseball Roundtable with SI staffers Tom Berducci, Stephanie Epstein, 11 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: and Matt Martel. It's April six. I'm your host John 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This is 13 00:00:49,320 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated Weekly. Major League Baseball is coming back. Within 14 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: the last few minutes, ESPN reports MLB owners and the 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: league's players Association have reached a tenant of agreement on 16 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: a new labor deal. I have to say, I am 17 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: genuinely thrilled to be able to say that Major League 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: Baseball is back and we're gonna play a hundred and 19 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: sixty two games. Major League Baseball is Opening Day is 20 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: finally upon us, and to discuss that, we have S 21 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: I S Baseball brain trust here writer's Tom Verducci, Stephanie Apstein, 22 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: and editor Matt Mark tell Gang. Welcome to Sports Illustrative Weekly. 23 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Great to be here, Thanks for having us. So this 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: offseason was all about labor strife and the lockout and 25 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: the c b A and very little about baseball. And 26 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 1: so I'm wondering, Stephanie, because you were at so many 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: different clubs for spring training and you got to talk 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: to fans and players, do you think baseball hurt itself 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: with the off season it had. I think that baseball 30 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: heard itself less than I expected it too. And I 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: think that because they're going to get in a full season, 32 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: fans don't really care. I think if they had lost games, 33 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: this would be a huge problem. But at the moment, really, 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: the only people being inconvenienced by this, or the people 35 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: involved in the sport who have to cram hundred and 36 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: sixty two days games into a one hundred and fifty 37 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: five game schedule, the fans I ran into its spring training. 38 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: At least, we're just happy to be there. The changes 39 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: in the cb A, they don't think really affect them. 40 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,679 Speaker 1: So I think only the most hardcore of people care 41 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: that much about what happened, and those people probably aren't 42 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: going anywhere. I guess we'll see down the road if 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: attendance is down and if viewership is down, But at 44 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: least for the people who were at spring training, those 45 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 1: people are seemed to be pretty happy to have this 46 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: work back. Yeah, and you mentioned like cramming an entire 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: season into a shorter window. Matt, How does the lockout 48 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: impact the schedule? I know that the Philadelphia Phillies, as 49 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: everybody who listens to this program knows, I am contractually 50 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: obligated to mention my hometown Philadelphia every time we do 51 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: the show. But they play thirteen straight days to start 52 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: the season. So what kind of impact will that have 53 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: on some of these teams. It's hard to say exactly 54 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: how it's going to impact certain teams. It might come 55 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: down to who plays the Orioles the most and at 56 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: what time of the year. So the schedule is going 57 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: to be changed. You're gonna have Opening Day with the 58 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: Yankees and the Red Sox, so there could be certain 59 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:10,799 Speaker 1: matchups that you wouldn't typically see early in the year. 60 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: Later in the year, you're gonna be cramming off. Days 61 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: are going to be a little bit different, but the 62 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: schedule is going to be different, and it's going to 63 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: be a grind. As Step was saying you very tacitly 64 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: through some shade at the Orioles there, which I love, 65 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: and that's something that I want to bring up with you, 66 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: Tom that part of the conversation when the lockout was 67 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: happening was about how to improve competitive balance. And we've 68 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: seen some teams this offseason, the A's, particularly the Reds 69 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: as well, sell off some players and roughly a fifth 70 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: of the league looks like it's content just to keep 71 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: cutting payroll. And a former colleague of mine and a friend, 72 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 1: Mike Bauman from The Ringer, pointed out that the Ottawa Senators, 73 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: who are this irrelevant small market hockey franchise, will be 74 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: spending more on payroll this season than about of major 75 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: league baseball team. So I'm wondering, in your estimation how 76 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: big a problem this is for baseball when when we 77 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: look at competitive balance and some of these teams deciding yeah, 78 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: we're good as is. Yeah, it's interesting because I think 79 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: it's really a problem when you have teams that decide 80 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: for five or six years, we're not even gonna try 81 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: to win, And they think that's a good strategy. If 82 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: you're a fan, you just love the game of baseball, 83 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 1: you can't abide by that, right, So we don't want 84 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: that situation. But the fact is there's always losing teams. 85 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: There always will be. For every other win, there has 86 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: to be another loss, and we're seeing that this age 87 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: is not that different. I mean, last year you had 88 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: eleven teams within ninety or more games, and the team 89 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: that won the World Series wasn't one of them, was 90 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: the Braves. So I think in the aggregate, yeah, I 91 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: think competitive balance is actually pretty good around baseball right now. 92 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: I mean I think right now you can probably write 93 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: off at the max, I'd say nine or ten teams 94 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: that don't have a shot at the postseason, So say 95 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: twenty or twenty one teams competing for twelve playoffs spots. 96 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: That's not terrible. I think baseball is in a pretty 97 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: good shape in terms of competitive balance. I will say 98 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: it's step brought up a good point here. If we 99 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: lost games on this season, that would have been disastrous. 100 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: But I do think there's a price to pay for 101 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: the lockout, there's no runway leading up to this season. 102 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 1: Obviously the lockout played a part here, But is this 103 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: lack of buzz about baseball just sort of an accumulation 104 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 1: of things over the years. What has happened with baseball? 105 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: Where you know, it's America's pastime, but there hasn't been 106 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: a lot of talk about baseball except where there was 107 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: the labor negotiation and now, as Tom said, all of 108 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: a sudden, baseball starting again. Yeah. I think society changed 109 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: a lot and baseball didn't change a lot except to 110 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: get slower. So the inverse of a good product these 111 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: days entertainment world is what baseball has been doing, and 112 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: that is giving people less action over a longer period 113 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: of time. That's just a terrible formula. Now, I think 114 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 1: there's things in place now to change that, and I 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: think baseball has got a real opportunity to turn a 116 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: corner starting with this season. But yeah, baseball fell behind 117 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: because society just changed so much. And it is the 118 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: attention an economy. We only have so much attention to 119 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: give and there's so many things voyuing for it. Baseball 120 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: is not really event oriented. I mean, the biggest thing 121 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: that happened last year, in my opinion for baseball was 122 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: the Field of Dreams game. It was unbelievable. It was 123 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,279 Speaker 1: I candy on your television. We've kept our promise. Major 124 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: League Baseball has kept its promise the dreams Still there's 125 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 1: probably just one question to answer, is this heaven? I 126 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: don't think I heard you. Is this heaven? Yes? It is. 127 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 1: It was an event. You know, when you play a 128 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two games, thirty teams, there's not too 129 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: many tent pole events in the course of a baseball season, 130 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: like you're going to get with the NFL with one 131 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: game a week. So about that, you had mentioned baseball 132 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: thinking about this trying to address some of these issues, Stephanie, 133 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: do you think any of the changes that baseball made 134 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: during the off season will help on that front. I mean, 135 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: we've got the universal d H happening expanded postseason. I 136 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: know that there was the memo that's was sent out 137 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: about sticky substances, which you know, I like, if you're 138 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 1: not cheating, you ain't trying. What do we think here? 139 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: I think it's all a start. I actually think the 140 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: change that's going to mean the most is limiting the 141 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: number of pictures on the roster. We're not going to 142 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: see that until May because the way that the lock 143 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: up affected pictures ramp ups, as as Thomas saying, the 144 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: games are gonna be terrible, and it's in part because 145 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: the players are not totally ready for the season. Since 146 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: they weren't sure when the season was going to start, 147 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: a lot of them did not ramp up appropriately. It's 148 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: like some of them were saying, you know, they thought 149 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: it was gonna go till May, and so they just 150 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: weren't really ready. They're going to have a lot more 151 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: pictures on staff. I mean some people are talking about 152 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: opening with sixteen even more than that pictures. Uh So 153 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: for the first month it's going to be rough. But 154 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: after that, limiting the number of pictures on the roster 155 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: I think is huge because it makes it harder to do. 156 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: In addition to the three batter minimum, pictures are going 157 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: to have to throw a little bit longer, which means 158 00:07:57,720 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: they probably can't throw a quays hard, which means it 159 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 1: might be a little easier to hit. And so I 160 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: think that is that's the change I'm most looking forward 161 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: to seeing because that's something we've been talking about for 162 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: a while. But the pandemic Panderhard Institute, and so I 163 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: think that's going to have an effect. I'll be interested 164 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: to see if it actually does. Do we like the 165 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: universal d H and the expanded postseason? I'm curious how 166 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: you guys feel about that, especially with the expanded postseason, 167 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: what with twelve teams that works out to roughly. I 168 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: was told to be no math. I used words for 169 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: a living for a reason. Numbers are not my four two. 170 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: But I believe that works out. Do we like these 171 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: two things? I actually like the expanded playoffs the one 172 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: thing in there. I guess there are two things specifically 173 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:38,680 Speaker 1: that I don't like about it, and I really like 174 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: the one game wild card. As we were talking about 175 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: getting baseball to have events, I thought that it was 176 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 1: really cool to have specific events. Yankees Red Sox played 177 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: last year. The Dodgers had won a hundred and six 178 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: games and could have lost to the Cardinals, who were 179 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: scorching hot in September. So I like the event of that. 180 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: But I do understand the idea of you play a 181 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: hunter six two games, Why are we going to let 182 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,719 Speaker 1: it come down to one wild card game. At the 183 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: same time, this goes into the other thing, that I'm 184 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: not particularly a fan of is the elimination of the 185 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: play in game. If you're tied after a hundred and 186 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 1: six two games, so there will be no more game 187 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: one sixty three, and that is something. Again, Baseball needs events, 188 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: and that's one way to create it. I think that 189 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,680 Speaker 1: it is a good thing, though, if you haven't expanded playoffs, 190 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: and maybe a team that hasn't made the playoffs in 191 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: twenty years or in the Phillies case, ten, they have 192 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: a chance to get in now. I mean, but I 193 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: was even talking about the Baroners who nearly made it 194 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: last year. So this does open the door a little 195 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: bit for fan bases to get excited, so long as 196 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: their teams are actually going for it and trying to 197 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: get to that last spot. Tom, you want to tackle 198 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: the d H component, Yeah, I mean it's a losing battle, right. 199 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, I'm a fan of letter writing and 200 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: that's never coming back, right. I mean, things move on, 201 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: and I get it. I mean pictures, a lot of 202 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 1: them nowadays. Kids are nine or ten years old aren't 203 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: hitting or they become special as pictures at that point. 204 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: So the hitting of pictures has gotten worse and worse 205 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: in general, I'm a huge fan of National League baseball. 206 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: It's a much better game. It is chess and the 207 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: American League is checkers. And don't try to tell me 208 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: there's more strategy in the American League because the pictures 209 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: spot doesn't come around, so it's not as obvious when 210 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,079 Speaker 1: to hit for your picture. That's bologny. There's so much 211 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: more strategy in the National League game, and we will 212 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: miss that. Next year we'll be getting to a more 213 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: balanced schedule where every team will play every other team. 214 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: You'll be playing by the same rules. I was a 215 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:33,959 Speaker 1: fan of asymmetry. If we didn't like the d H, 216 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: you had the National League. If you wanted a d H, 217 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: you had the American League. Now it's just the same 218 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: ice cream flavor for everybody. Yeah, I like this take Tom, 219 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: and I want these kids to get off my lawn too. 220 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: But I guess we're well past that point. This is 221 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: kind of a downer of an interview where we're just 222 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: saying all the things that is wrong with baseball because 223 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: we're talking about labor. Yeah, we're talking about labor. All 224 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: the things that they need to fix. The season is starting. 225 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: Opening day is here as again as people listen to this. 226 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: So let's go around the horn. Give people a reason 227 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: why you guys anything while you're excited about the season 228 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: starting in baseball being back, have you looked at the 229 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: top of the Angels batting order, show Hey Otani leading 230 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 1: off followed by Mike Trout. I mean that is amazing. 231 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 1: Last year Trout Otani renda on playing only seventeen games 232 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: together because of injuries. Right, Otani just goes off with 233 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: I think the most amazing season in the history of baseball. 234 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 1: It can actually be better this year. If you give 235 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: me a whole year of Otani and Trout together, I mean, 236 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: my goodness. I mean that's must c TV. I mean that, 237 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: to me is the biggest draw baseball. The Dodgers are 238 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 1: the best team, but the most exciting team to watch 239 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: is going to be that Angel's lineup. They've added guys 240 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: that could make that team better. And what's better than 241 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: seeing the most exciting, entertaining team in baseball in the playoffs. 242 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 1: I think they got a shot this year. Um. Other 243 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: thing that I'm really looking forward to is I'm really 244 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:58,600 Speaker 1: excited to see Hopper Pools back at the Cardinals. I 245 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: want to see one more season I want to see 246 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: him just face left handed pitching. And one of my 247 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: favorite statistical quirks is that Albert Pools has one fewer 248 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: stolen base than he has sacrifice flies in his career. 249 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: I'm looking to see if he can get that stolen 250 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: base mark over sack flies for his career. Run Albert, 251 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: run you, Matt. He has not been caught years, So 252 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: let's see if this happens on the other coast. The 253 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: one I'm excited to watch is the Blue Jays, and 254 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: I'm excited for Blue Jays fans that they finally get 255 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: to watch this team in person for a whole season. 256 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: You know that because of the pandemic, they were in 257 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: Dune Ed and they were in Buffalo. They've been basically 258 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: everywhere but Toronto in a way that their fans can 259 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: be a full capacity in the ballpark to watch. So 260 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: I think this really fun young team will actually get 261 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: the home crowd that it deserves. I think it's gonna 262 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: be fun to watch them react to a home crowd 263 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: reacting to them. Let's look at the two different leagues 264 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: before we cut you, guys lose. I was at a 265 00:12:57,559 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: cook out this weekend. I was talking to a fan 266 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: from the York a friend of mine who is a 267 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 1: friend despite being from New York, and he's a big 268 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: Yankees packer, and he was just trashing them, and I 269 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: was trying to parse whether or not he was just 270 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: being a New Yorker and complaining or if he has 271 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: reason to grape. So in the a L including the Yankees, 272 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: who do we like? Well? I do like the Yankees. 273 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: I think they're much better defensively, and I think that's 274 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: gonna make their pitching staff a lot better. I really do. 275 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: And I think they have a fewer fewer strikeouts than 276 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: they had last year, which is going to help. They'll 277 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: hit their usual number of home runs. So but that 278 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: American League East is a bear man, and I'm with Steph. 279 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: The Blue Jays, to me, are one of the most 280 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: fun teams to watch. They swing the bat and like 281 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: they swing it often they get up there hacking, so 282 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: they're fun to watch. But keep your eye on the race. 283 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we spell all this winter as we usually do, 284 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: talking about money, and the Mets and the Dodgers are 285 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: way out in front of everybody in payroll and they're 286 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: really good teams. But the race somehow get it done. Man, 287 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 1: and they find a way. And I think the fact 288 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,360 Speaker 1: that they got in it for Freddy Raham in a 289 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: little bit tells me that this team has one move 290 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: left in them during the course of this season, because 291 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: they know their windows probably not really big. It's probably 292 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: closing pretty soon. And if you haven't seen Wander Franco play, 293 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: my goodness that that guy is amazing. So keep your 294 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: eye on the Rays. And I would say the Houston 295 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: Astros too, are really as good as they were last year, 296 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: especially Verlander. I saw him pitch in spring training. They 297 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: looked terrific. They also have the benefit of a division 298 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 1: in which the A's are no longer trying at all, 299 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: and so the you know, the teams in the East 300 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: I think are probably on the whole better than the 301 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:35,720 Speaker 1: rest of the league, but they all have to Other 302 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: than the Orioles, they don't really have an easy road, 303 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: and the Astros get to play. I mean, the Angels 304 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: look a lot better, but the Astros in the Central 305 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: teams have some easier schedules for sure. As far as 306 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: exciting teams go, I am kind of interested in those 307 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: white socks still. I am really excited to see a 308 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: full year of Luiz Robert. I think he is a 309 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: star and I am ready to see see him just 310 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: feast on some of the lesser pitchers in the American 311 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: League Central. I also think that that you might see 312 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: a surprisingly good season from the Detroit Tigers. They have 313 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 1: a lot of good young players who might be closer 314 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: than we think to being stars. They have a really 315 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: good young pitching staff. They just signed Xavier Bias, who's 316 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: always exciting. UM. I am really interested to see how 317 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: long they can contend. Maybe they're similar to the way 318 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: the Mariners were last year in it very very late 319 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: into the year, and let's go back to the Mariners 320 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: one more time. I am really excited in seeing some 321 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: of those young guys. I want to see Kellnick. He 322 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: seemed to make adjustments down towards the end of the year. 323 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: I want to see him put it together. I love 324 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: Julio Rodriguez. I want to see him. There's a lot 325 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: of good, at least interesting teams to watch in the 326 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: American League. And as Tom said, the Yankees are better defensively, 327 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: so we'll see what happens. It's gonna be a fun race, 328 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: and this is where we should probably throw in our 329 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: obligatory Phillies reference. Look at this, you should be hosting 330 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: the show because I was just about to pivot to this, 331 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: and I ask you guys about the n L. Everybody 332 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: knows that Dodgers are loaded and the defending champs Atlanta 333 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: let Freeman walk. But I'm wondering what you guys think 334 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: about the n L, and Tom, I expect that this 335 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: is where you're gonna pump up the Phillies. Well, I 336 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: don't know what to make of the Phillies other than 337 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: they're gonna be fun to watch. I mean, they're gonna 338 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: score a ton of runs. If you go a get 339 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: up against the Phillies with the back half of your rotation, 340 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: look out, man, they will just pummel you. But I 341 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: still don't think they catch the ball well enough to 342 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: be a postseason team. I really don't. They'll be fun 343 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: to watch, don't get me wrong, and they'll be a contender, 344 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: but to really be a playoff team in a tough 345 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: National league with a really poor defense, that's gonna be 346 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: hard for them to do. But you have to like 347 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: the Dodgers, though, to me, some things are just too obvious. 348 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: We're trying to split hairs and look for granular things, 349 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 1: who's good, who's not. The Dodgers are loaded, man, and 350 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: they have a really good farm system too. They get 351 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: some players you're gonna see in the second half of 352 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: the season, especially in the pitching staff, so it's hard 353 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: to go against the chalk with the Dodgers. I was 354 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: skeptical about the Giants before I got there, and maybe 355 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,680 Speaker 1: they're just doing a pretty good job of selling people 356 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: who show up in person. But I came away thinking, 357 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: you know what, the Giants have another hundred one season 358 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: and them, which seems outrageous to say, given how hard 359 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: it is to one hundred games and sort of the 360 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: personnel that the Dodgers can roll out. Yeah, I am 361 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: interested in the n Os specifically because the Patres could 362 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 1: have a reverse year that they had last year. They 363 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 1: might start slow, they don't have Tattoos for a little while, 364 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: but if they're still in contention and he comes back, 365 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: they could make a run for it late. I still 366 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm going to pick them to make 367 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: the playoffs, but they could make a run towards the end, 368 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 1: especially if they play a little more consistent their pitching 369 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 1: staff doesn't burn out down towards the end of the year. 370 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: I like the Phillies a lot. I mean I I 371 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: think that they've been so close these last couple of years, 372 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: and they have gotten better. Tom's right, they will not 373 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 1: catch the ball, but they're gonna be fun to watch. 374 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you, guys. I didn't hear 375 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: a single thing you guys said about It's already been deleted, 376 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 1: the part where you said the Phillies can't catch and 377 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,120 Speaker 1: they're in a tough division. All I heard was Tom 378 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: saying that they'd be fun and they'd be contenders, and 379 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: we will leave it there. Read them on SI dot com, 380 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 1: and we will have them back on Sports Illustrated weekly 381 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 1: throughout the season. Tom Ferduci, Matt Martell, and Stephanie Epstein, 382 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: thank you so much for us. After a break, we 383 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: discussed HBO's Lakers series winning time. Before this season, we 384 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: thought I was done. Now I want more than anything 385 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: in a long time. We're thirteen games in. We got 386 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 1: lightning in a bottom. The Lakers are the team of 387 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties. I want, Like a lot of NBA fans, 388 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: When HBO announced that it would turn a book by 389 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,360 Speaker 1: Jeff Perlman about the Showtime era Lakers into a new 390 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: prestige drama called Winning Time. I was overjoyed sex, drugs, 391 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: and basketball, Yes and pleads. But while Winning Time has 392 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: taken some heat for certain treatments, especially the way Jason 393 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: Clark has portrayed NBA Hall of Famer Jerry West, I've 394 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,360 Speaker 1: been thinking a lot about what the show gets right 395 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: and where it goes wrong. So to figure all that out, 396 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: I enlisted two friends and former co workers, bringer TV 397 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: critic Allison Herman and NBA analyst Jordan Liggands from The 398 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: Spinster's podcast. I have gathered us all here today to 399 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: discuss a show that had a lot of hype around it, 400 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 1: a prestige show on HBO with a prominent running slot, 401 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: and everybody was talking about at Winning Time, which is 402 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: about the Lakers Showtime era. So I guess I'll start 403 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: with this. Alison, you go first. Is the show any good? 404 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost too early to tell, which 405 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: is a very weird thing to say about a show 406 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,959 Speaker 1: that is almost halfway into its highly anticipated first season. 407 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: It is proceeding, and I think almost a shockingly leisurely 408 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 1: pace for a show about this time period, about this 409 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: team whose literal philosophy was fast break basketball. So you know, 410 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: a lot of very pivotal developments in the history of 411 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,959 Speaker 1: this period in the Lakers are still in the offing 412 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: and if yet to happen, and they're still doing a 413 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 1: lot of set up, and I think that's contributed to 414 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: the kind of tepid reception. I feel like the show 415 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: has gotten so far. Jordan is a Lakers fan steeped 416 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: in the history of the franchise. I feel like this 417 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: should hit a real sweet spot for you. Where do 418 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 1: you stand on it? It does. I finished the last 419 00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: episode and as soon as the credits rolled, I was like, 420 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: this is fun, Like I'm entertained. It's fun to watch, 421 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: and it's I don't know what's true. I don't know 422 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: it's not true. I'm googling the whole time. But the 423 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: basketball part of it and the entertainment value, the fashion, 424 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: I'm like, this is a good time, and I think 425 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: that's what it's supposed to relay, you know, as a 426 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 1: viewing watching experience, as a basketball fan. I think the 427 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: basketball part and the history you know of the franchise 428 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: and the coaches and trying to pinpoint where in the 429 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: timeline we are is also fun, but also just on 430 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: a sit back and watch, I'm like, this is entertainment. 431 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: I think I'm in the weird position of almost knowing 432 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: more of the what's true what's not of it all 433 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 1: than the actual die hard Lakers fan on this podcast, 434 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: because you know, I'd like to think I'm a little 435 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: aware of my of my blind spots as a critic, So, um, 436 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: I did not come into this with a lot of 437 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: basketball knowledge, so I made sure to read the Pearlman 438 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: book Showtime, on which the show is based, and comparing 439 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: the two makes it really interesting because I mean I 440 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: mentioned the pacing. Pearlman's book covers ten whole years, and 441 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: it becomes very clear over the course of watching this 442 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: season of TV that it does not plan to get 443 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: much further than like the calendar your nine nine. So 444 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: it's very weird to kind of hold up the source 445 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: material against the actual storytelling in this case. Initially when 446 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: the show came out, there was some bus Since then 447 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: less buzz, but at the beginning there was some buzz, 448 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: but it was largely negative. And when you're talking about 449 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: the source material of the book, the characters and the people, 450 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 1: the real life people who Perlman writes about were portrayed 451 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: in one way in the book and in a decidedly 452 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: different way in the show. And I'm thinking specifically and 453 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 1: mainly about Jason Clark's portrayal of one Jerry West, which is, 454 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 1: let's say aggressive, Yeah, why don't you ask him? Well, 455 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: this is the third year straight. I've been begging for 456 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: a solid four. But he won't bomb me. Spencer Hayward, 457 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,719 Speaker 1: he's too expensive not to mention. He attracts a certain element, 458 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: you know that holding back to Africa, my Larkey, that's 459 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: und like basketball, do you is business? Jerry mingo ding ding, 460 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: that's what you won't read your sports pages. I love 461 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: Jason Clark. I think he's fun in it. He is 462 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: intense as hell. I suspect through various media reports and 463 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: people I have talked to, the real Jerry West not 464 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: exactly thrilled about this poor trial. What have you two 465 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: made of Jason Clark's performance in that role. I actually 466 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: really enjoy it, and I think it's an example of 467 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: the show actually filling in the gaps of the book 468 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,440 Speaker 1: in a lot of really helpful ways. The show really 469 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 1: makes a meal of the fact that this is like 470 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: a chronically depressed dude from West Virginia with all that 471 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: sails and really makes the most of that. And I 472 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: think Jason Clark's Jerry West is a good example of that. 473 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: And I think also the way the show treats Genie Buss, 474 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: who is a seventeen year old so in real life 475 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: did not have like a huge pivotal role to play 476 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: in the Lakers operation at that point in time, but 477 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,639 Speaker 1: the show really uses her for the emotional impact of 478 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: you know, her father's the owner of the team, and 479 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: so I think like those two performances really symbolized to 480 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,040 Speaker 1: me the show trying to avoid what I called in 481 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: my review the Wikipedia trap, where it's just kind of 482 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: running back the highlights of stuff we're aware of because 483 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 1: it's in the historical record. Jordan, how do you feel 484 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: about I mean, channel Jerry West here? How are you 485 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,479 Speaker 1: feeling if you're Jerry West watching Jason Clark chew up 486 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: all the scenery on your behalf. Um, I'm sure a 487 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: TV is broken in their house or something, just throwing 488 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: something at the television, But I found that so interesting, 489 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: just not knowing a lot about Jerry West personally, but 490 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: as someone watching your like the logo. The logo is 491 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 1: angry all the time. What or you know? Going back 492 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 1: into his past a couple episodes we dive into his 493 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: family history and also him just losing year after year, 494 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: I would think you would be angry. So the portrayal 495 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,359 Speaker 1: makes sense. I think it's surprised a lot of people. 496 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: I'm not surprised that his camp and his family is 497 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: not so happy with this portrayal. But being able to 498 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: see this inside look of this envisioned drama version, I 499 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: love it. Give me all of it. Yeah, I mean 500 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: for us, it's great, but as you mentioned, there's been 501 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: some pushback from his camp for people around him. Jerry 502 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: West has been largely silent on this, but a lot 503 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: of people around Jerry West and other people who have 504 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: been portrayed have not exactly been thrilled about this. But 505 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: I want to go through each of the individual performances 506 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:50,880 Speaker 1: that stand out. Before I do that, though, I want 507 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: to bring in our resident Clippers fan, our producer, Isaac Lee. Isaac, 508 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 1: you have not seen this show. I suspect I know why. 509 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: But what does your general feeling on people not being 510 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: thrilled with this HBO Prestige show about your hated rival 511 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: Los Angeles Lakers. I see Jordan rolling her eyes right now. 512 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: I think there are thirty NBA fan bases, and twenty 513 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: nine of those fan bases aren't necessarily naturally attracted to 514 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: a massibratory celebration of the Los Angeles Lakers glory days. Uh. 515 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: I think that the Lakers have already been celebrated to death. 516 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: Even me, you know, I the hatred of the Los 517 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: Angeles Lakers is what fuels my daily life and my 518 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: existence on this planet. Gets you out of bed in 519 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: the morning. Even I wouldn't deny that they are the 520 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: greatest NBA franchise. Celtics fans would have something to say 521 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: about that, but I would say, yeah, of course, the 522 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 1: Lakers are the greatest franchise and NBA one of the 523 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 1: most recognizable brands in sports. It's not disputed. So why 524 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,239 Speaker 1: are we doing this again? Why are we being like, oh, 525 00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: the Lakers are so great? The Lakers are so great 526 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 1: by the way, Jerry West at the logo now Clippers executive, Yeah, 527 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: I just wanted to point that out now. Fighting for 528 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: the enemy. I will tell you, though, Isaac, I think 529 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 1: you would be pleasantly surprised because you're talking about this 530 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: show as though it FETs and celebrates the Lakers, and 531 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: I would submit to you that it frequently does not. 532 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 1: It does not paint most of these people in the 533 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: best light, which brings me to let's run through some 534 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: of these portrayals and how we feel about the actors 535 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: and the performances. And you had mentioned the Boston Celtics 536 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: and whether or not the Boston Celtics are one of 537 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: the greatest franchises in the NBA history, and they certainly 538 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: are one of But what are performance I think? And 539 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 1: we'll start off Alison with Michael Checklist as Red Auerbach, 540 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: who just he's got the cigar and the whole bit, 541 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 1: and I thought it was delightful. I think he does 542 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 1: a great job. This may be jumping the gun a 543 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 1: little bit, but while we're on the subject of the Celtics, 544 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: I personally feel robbed and deprived and depleted that Bo Burnham, 545 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: a great tall white man from Massachuset, it's is not 546 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: playing Larry Bird as he was set to. At one 547 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 1: point in time. I thought, no, no, no, it's a 548 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: different actor. And I think the actor they cast actually 549 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,640 Speaker 1: looks more like the real Larry Bird. But it just 550 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: it's like a small dagger in my heart every time 551 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,159 Speaker 1: he shows up on screen. Um, I do think the 552 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: red hour back figure is good, although you know, contrary 553 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: to your point, he's kind of cast as this like 554 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: minicky and like satanic figure. And Jerry Buss is this 555 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: David and Goliath hero type. Jordan, I want to run 556 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: a couple more past you here. What about Adrian Brody 557 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 1: as pat Riley. Pat Riley not yet the coach, just 558 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: trying to like figure out his way in the world. 559 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: All I've haven't done is work. I worked my whole life. Yes, 560 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: that's all I'm done, day and night at work. I 561 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: was like, okay, pat Riley wasn't always this stylish fox 562 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: and the white suit from the Last Dance at all times? 563 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: Like I love us being able to see the glow 564 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: up and how he kind of started from the bottom 565 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 1: and and becomes the pat Riley that we know. Um, 566 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 1: but now he's like gathering tape and filming practices and 567 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: getting beat up at venice pickup games. I just love 568 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: the character, and especially you know, being a fan and 569 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: knowing what's to come, it's fun to enjoy the like, oh, 570 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: I know you're gonna be great, but right now you 571 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: kind of you don't have a job. You're trying to 572 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: like pass out resumes and beg people for a job. 573 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: That's that's the entertaining part for me, because we know 574 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: it's going to work out another one for you, Alison, 575 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: you would mention Genie Buss. In real life, Genie Buss 576 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: would not have appeared this soon, right because Genie Buss 577 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: actually was working on a pro tennis operation for her 578 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: father at the time. But in the show, they bring 579 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: her in and incorporate her right from the beginning. So 580 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: what do you make of what they've done? What Genie 581 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: Buss has played by Hadley Robinson. I really enjoy it because, 582 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: like I said earlier, I think they use it to 583 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: talk about the parts of the show that are not 584 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: just like the x as and ohs of like how 585 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: did these people form a strategy to win a basketball championship? 586 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: Like the show ultimately wants to be behind the scenes 587 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: and about people, and in fact, has I would say, 588 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,800 Speaker 1: like shockingly little on the court basketball potentially, because you know, 589 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: the people they've cast as Magic Johnson and Kareem mondel 590 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: Jabar are amazing, but they are not literally the greatest 591 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: basketball players of all time. But I think what they 592 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: do with Genie is they make her a window into 593 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: how Jerry Buss, who's this like larger than life womanizing figure, 594 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: ends up coming across to the people in his life 595 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: who don't just see the flashy public persona and are 596 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 1: kind of aware of the hustling it takes for him 597 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: to maintain this image and kind of force entry into 598 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: this elite club of sports owners. And I actually do 599 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: really like the ambivalence they work in by way of Genie, 600 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: but towards you know, part of the showtime image wasn't 601 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: just the play on the court. It was the Laker 602 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: girls and the Forum Club and all the stuff that 603 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: went out down in the Forum Club that I don't 604 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: know how much they're gonna show on TV, but you 605 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: know it's probably pretty HBO friendly. Jordan's before we decided 606 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: to do this recording together, I gave you a prompt. 607 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: It's the reason I'm watching the show and having such 608 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: a good time with it. Please talk to me about 609 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: John c Riley as Jerry Boss and his resplendent chest hair. 610 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: Chris splendent, Yes, I thought you were just talking about 611 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 1: the chest hair as a character that whole shirt, because 612 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: I really think it is. At one point I was watching, 613 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, why why even have on a shirt at 614 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: this point? The buttons are so low? Yeah too at 615 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: the bottom again, that just goes to the fashion. I'm 616 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: all about it. I'm all about him, you know, doing 617 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 1: a hair to Royal in the middle of an episode 618 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: about how he slips it over and then he jumps 619 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: in the pool at one point of the training camp 620 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 1: and you just see it just turned into a frow 621 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: and missed the fy away. But I think we've all 622 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: heard the story that Will Ferrell was supposed to be 623 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: in this role of Dr Bus and I just don't 624 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: think that would have worked. I just wouldn't have believed it. 625 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: This was made for John c Riley, Like, it really 626 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 1: was made for him. You're doing a great job all 627 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: this alight, keep working on the show. That's what's going 628 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: to pack him in. I gotta get this butter off me. 629 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm going in enjoy. He is funny, it's entertaining. I 630 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: believe him as this savior of the Lakers. Like I'm like, yeah, 631 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: he's gonna save the franchise. Let's get you know, let's 632 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: go for it. Not for Cocktail exactly. He is a womanizer. 633 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: I think it does address the time and how he 634 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: was different than all these stuffy other owners and executives 635 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: that were all about basketball and he did come and 636 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: bring something different. And I think just as a character, 637 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: he is everything and the show is centered around him, 638 00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: as it should be. I mean, speaking of casting, that 639 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't have worked before. It was maybe going to be 640 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: Will Ferrell, it was definitely going to be Michael Shannon, which, 641 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: like I cannot imagine Nelson van Alden, you know, revolutionary 642 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 1: Road himself doing sex symbol, party animal, fun guy Jerry 643 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: Buss and I love John c Riley in this role 644 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: for so many reasons. But I feel like he obviously 645 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: as an incredible range and an actor, I don't know 646 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: if I've ever seen him be like sexy and like 647 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: charismatic in this way, and it really sells the way 648 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: that he's you know, obviously unconventional in that way, like 649 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: he wears a hairpiece, he's older, he's this like dude 650 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: from Wyoming who has a science doctorate but made his 651 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 1: money in real estate. But like he just has this 652 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: overwhelming star power that makes him able to be BFFs 653 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,919 Speaker 1: with like a nineteen year old rookie NBA player from 654 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: East Lansing, Michigan, and you're like, I totally see how 655 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: those guys see ied I and yeah, I agree. Just 656 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: knowing the multiple alternate scenarios, I think we ended up 657 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: with the best one. Absolutely. If if this actually did 658 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: created the relationship between Well Ferrell and Adam McKay, I'm 659 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: glad for it. Thank you John c Riley for ruining 660 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: their friendship, because yes, and show. I don't look some 661 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: people will think it's good or bad or unnecessary or whatever. 662 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: This show is John c Riley with his one button chest, 663 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,879 Speaker 1: hair out chewing not just all the scenery that he's 664 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: but then all of the rest of the scenery in 665 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: Los Angeles, and I highly recommended for that performance alone. 666 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: I highly recommend reading Allison on The Ringer and listened 667 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: to Jordan and Haley on Spinster's My Friends. Thanks for 668 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: doing this. After a break, NBA legend Dirk Nowitzki speaks 669 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: with s I s Howard Beck five o'clock Bitsky heads 670 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: faced falling away down again. One of the cool things 671 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,840 Speaker 1: about working at Sports Illustrated is the access it gives 672 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: us to big name athletes and as part of a 673 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: recurring segment we've really enjoyed, we've asked a bunch of 674 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: stars about their first time in s I, including Jerry 675 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,759 Speaker 1: Rice and It's Smith, Michael Vick, and a whole bunch 676 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: of others, and now SI senior writer Howard Back conducts 677 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: that same conversation with none other than NBA legend Dirk Nowitzki. 678 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: Disk do you remember your first time in Sports Illustrated. 679 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure whether that was my first time, but 680 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: I actually have a uh Sports Illustrated article framed at 681 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: home and we were just hitting our stride with the 682 00:36:17,480 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: maths with Finlay and Nash, and they wrote a little 683 00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: spread on us, and I remember it's actually Sean Bradley 684 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: is in the air and one of the pictures and 685 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 1: he's contesting a shot and underneath said, dirk Ny Whiskey 686 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: is playing really well. So we were just we were 687 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: not that known yet, so h I didn't take it 688 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: personal anything, but that is uh, that was one of 689 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: the first articles that I remember that Sports Illustrated was, 690 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: you know, having the MAVs on the radar, and that 691 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: was that was a big moment for us that we 692 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 1: we've come a long way, remember, was that your rookie 693 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 1: season or a couple of years. That must have been 694 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,279 Speaker 1: a couple of years in because obviously my rookie year 695 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 1: we didn't really play that well, so it was my 696 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: have been on my my second or third year when 697 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: we're starting to get better and making the playoffs for 698 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,760 Speaker 1: the first time. Do you remember when s I first 699 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: wrote about you specifically? I don't remember that now because 700 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: that one we found here January two thousand, story by 701 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: John Wortheim. It talks about you missing home. It describes Warrisburg, 702 00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: which I'm not pronouncing correctly, let's poke, thank you. I 703 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,360 Speaker 1: could not pull that off, and talking about you missing 704 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: home and talking about your hometown, and talking about the 705 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: fact that after a shaky rookie season, though Dirk Navitski 706 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: is kind of starting to find his footing your averaging 707 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: eighteen points a game, at that moment, you're starting to 708 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,600 Speaker 1: break out. Do you remember anything about this one? I don't, 709 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: but it sounds good. I can't believe John has been 710 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: around this long. That's uh, that's sweet. So I don't 711 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: remember that article. That is the fast developing after a 712 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: rookie year in which the negatives prevailed the Mavericks. Dirknovitski 713 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: looks like a budding star. Not the cover that sounds amazing. No, 714 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:05,960 Speaker 1: not the cover, not the cover, but it's uh Antonio 715 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: Davis is praising you, saying, he sure is something. Isn't 716 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: he shooting, passing, rebounding, He can do it all and 717 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 1: he's big. I'm surprised because we didn't know much about him. 718 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 1: People forget back in the day when you came in, 719 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,720 Speaker 1: like a European player comes over, even if they're tagged 720 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: for stardom, we don't know anything about him. There's no YouTube, 721 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: so you were a mystery. Yeah, for sure they found 722 00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: me somewhere in the middle of nowhere. But yeah, it 723 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,720 Speaker 1: was it was a hard time to get going. They're beginning. 724 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: Some of My second year was was a lot better 725 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: about my rookie year, you know, as you know, that 726 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,839 Speaker 1: was the lockout year that was that was super tough seed. 727 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: So I'm glad in my second year it's kind of 728 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 1: helped and broke through a little bit. Did it mean 729 00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 1: something to you at that moment in your early career 730 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 1: to kind of start to get that national recognition from 731 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: s I or wherever you know, and and uh, old Nells, 732 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: the coach said before my rookie year, he's that I'm 733 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 1: going to be a Rookie of the Year. So I 734 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: got a lot more national attention that actually wanted my 735 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: first year, and so that put a lot of pressure on. 736 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,280 Speaker 1: But in my second year I was able to calm 737 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:12,719 Speaker 1: down and and and have some good games, and that 738 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: was good. Come put me and put me on the 739 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: radar for sure. So Worth time set the scene in 740 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:19,279 Speaker 1: a way about who you were at that time, in 741 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: the sense that you were just, you know, displaced from home. 742 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: You're halfway around the world, missing home and still trying 743 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: to find your footing. How would you describe who you 744 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: were at the moment that that story pops in January 745 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:34,000 Speaker 1: of two thousand, you know, early in your second season. Yeah, 746 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,799 Speaker 1: I mean it was it was a tough time, but 747 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: I was just starting to play better. I think my 748 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: second year was a little fortunate. We had a we 749 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: had a power forward and his name was Gary Trent, 750 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: and he was playing really well. I'm not sure you 751 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 1: remember him. He was the least and uh he tore 752 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: his hamstring in training camp and so he missed that 753 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: entire season. So really I was the only power forward 754 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: on on the roster, and I literally played thirty thirty 755 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: five minutes my second year already, and I think that 756 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,319 Speaker 1: helped me a lot, settle in, get used to the 757 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,919 Speaker 1: style of play, and so I was in a way 758 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: better place in January a two thousand than I wasn't 759 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 1: in ever at any point in my rookie year. And 760 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: I was starting to fill out a little bit and 761 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,920 Speaker 1: my body was more ready for it. So I think 762 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 1: I was well on my way in in January twenty 763 00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 1: two thousand. Thought it was uh, I was definitely heading 764 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: the right way. The story makes reference to the idea 765 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: that you were fast eclipsing Debtler Shrimp as the best 766 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 1: basketball export from Germany. Were you feeling any of that 767 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: at the time, and did you once you start to 768 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: find your way in the NBA, are you starting to 769 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: realize not that you could predict what the next eighteen 770 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,440 Speaker 1: years or whatever are going to to do for you, 771 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: or how they're gonna unfold the starting that will come, 772 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: but did you feel that that was possible at that moment? 773 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,439 Speaker 1: Did you start to see it? I mean a little bit. 774 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: I think at the end of my first year, I 775 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: had a couple of good games and I think that 776 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 1: that showed me, hey, if you work hard and you 777 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 1: put in all the work, that you can make it. Obviously, 778 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: I didn't think then it was going to be a 779 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,520 Speaker 1: twenty one year career or you know, winning the championship 780 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 1: and all the accolades obviously that came with that. Uh. 781 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: I was just trying to you know, make it a league, 782 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: make it past the rookie deal. And uh, you know, 783 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,239 Speaker 1: established myself with Stephen Mike has put the put the 784 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,480 Speaker 1: Dallas Mavericks back on the map since you know, in 785 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: the nineties they were a little bit of the laughing stocks. 786 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,399 Speaker 1: So I think that's really what I was focusing on there, 787 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: get better established myself and and uh and put Dallas 788 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,399 Speaker 1: back on the map. And I wasn't really sure where 789 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: that this would lead, but I know if I worked hard, 790 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,440 Speaker 1: I can I can have a future in this league, 791 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,520 Speaker 1: and that you might want to be better than Delae Shremp. Well, 792 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,919 Speaker 1: you know Dead Life had a great career as as 793 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,280 Speaker 1: you know. And he's he's a good friend of mine, 794 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: and uh, he was so nice to me at the 795 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: beginning when I first met him, and I just kind 796 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: of wanted to be my mentor and so I owe 797 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: him a lot. He is a great dude and I 798 00:41:54,280 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: respect him a lot. Thanks to the Nowitski and Howard Beck. 799 00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: You can read Howard on SI dot com and be 800 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,839 Speaker 1: sure to listen to him on the Crossover podcast. We'll 801 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,440 Speaker 1: have links in our show notes. Sports Illustrated Weekly is 802 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For 803 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: more podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 804 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows. 805 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,680 Speaker 1: And for more of Sports Illustrated's best stories and podcasts, 806 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: visit SI dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly 807 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: was produced by Cooper McKim, Jessica your Mooski, and Isaac Lee, 808 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: who was also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is 809 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 1: Dan Bloom. Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me 810 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 1: John Gonzaltz. Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider. Thanks 811 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: for listening, and if you stuck around this long, we 812 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: leave you with this. We will save the best for 813 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:54,759 Speaker 1: last with one John c Riley and a discussion of 814 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: his chest, hair, will and so so about an hour 815 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 1: on the chess Caroline. Everything else will be real, real, 816 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 1: brief