WEBVTT - Stephen Proctor on the History of Challenge Matches

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Today's episode is brought to you by our friends over

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<v Speaker 1>b Dratty. It's summer. Yeah, it's a Memorial Day weekend.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, what do you wear during the summer? What? What

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<v Speaker 2>I would imagine that you could wear them on the

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<v Speaker 2>That's what it usually is. Yeah, I think Frida eggs.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure these are things that you should know. Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>this is Garrett cutting in here. The promo code is

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<v Speaker 2>actually Friday Egg twenty five. Friday Egg twenty five, so

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<v Speaker 2>you get twenty five percent off. All right, back to

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<v Speaker 2>the tape.

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<v Speaker 1>So bdraddy dot com and now on to today's episode

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<v Speaker 1>with h We're joined by Garrett Morrison, managing editor of

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<v Speaker 1>The Friday Egg and uh Stephen Proctor.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, so Stephen Proctor is a golf historian. He wrote

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<v Speaker 2>a book about the life of Young Tom Morris called

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<v Speaker 2>Monarch of the Green that is very very good. I

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<v Speaker 2>highly recommend it. And he's a fun guy to talk to.

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<v Speaker 2>And today we are going to talk to him about

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<v Speaker 2>challenge matches, about the history of challenge matches, of which,

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<v Speaker 2>of course Young Tom Morris was a big part in

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<v Speaker 2>the eighteen hundreds, but This is intended to give some

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<v Speaker 2>perspective to the matches that are happening right now during

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<v Speaker 2>the pandemic, the match last week at Seminole, and of

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<v Speaker 2>course the upcoming one at Metalist Golf Club featuring Tiger

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<v Speaker 2>and Phil.

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<v Speaker 3>So we're just kind of getting Peyton Manning of course.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, those guys too.

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<v Speaker 1>I think they're going to bring some real human interest

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<v Speaker 1>into it because they're going to be chopping it around

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<v Speaker 1>and they're gonna be really relatable.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe, So, I don't know, I don't have a sense

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<v Speaker 2>for how good these guys really are. And you know what,

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<v Speaker 2>and if we're looking for relatability, Peyton Manning kind of

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<v Speaker 2>exudes that Tom Brady doesn't as much. Who has ever

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<v Speaker 2>in their lives related to Tom Brady. I mean, even

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<v Speaker 2>if he's playing poorly, he's probably gonna look good doing it.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll tell you, there's one moment in Tom Brady's life

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<v Speaker 1>that I can think is relatable as watching the replay

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<v Speaker 1>of him running the forty yard dash.

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<v Speaker 4>That's very true, Okay, I think that that's gonna be

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<v Speaker 4>true the way most people would look running it, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>you look, Yeah, but I think it'll be it'll be

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<v Speaker 4>a fun match to watch.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm excited.

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<v Speaker 1>I think those two I think not necessarily, Tom Brady's

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<v Speaker 1>not going to bring a lot of spice to it,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think Peyton Manning could be the guy that's

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<v Speaker 1>like that much needed relief, especially then you've got Barkley

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<v Speaker 1>also doing the telecast. I hope they don't overproduce this

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<v Speaker 1>one like we saw last week, where they just couldn't

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<v Speaker 1>seem to get out of the way of showing golf,

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<v Speaker 1>which which is essentially what people are turning turning the

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<v Speaker 1>TV on to watch is golf, but you can't seem

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<v Speaker 1>to show it. But this week, hopefully, I think this

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<v Speaker 1>week will be much better, and I think they'll have

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<v Speaker 1>learned a lot from the last match they did.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, do you think it's going to be a better

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<v Speaker 2>product on TV?

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<v Speaker 3>I think so.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't foresee it getting worse than the last one, Right,

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<v Speaker 1>you can't do something a second time and be worse

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<v Speaker 1>at it.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, you never know. It just seems like

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<v Speaker 2>there's a momentum that happens with these things where somebody

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<v Speaker 2>just says, oh, why don't we add this, Why don't

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<v Speaker 2>we add this? Oh we should throw this in you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what you end up with. You end up

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<v Speaker 2>with kind of a mess. I think that just sort

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<v Speaker 2>of happens without people really knowing that it happens.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think the more I've thought about it is

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<v Speaker 1>golf is such a challenging sport normally to broadcast because

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<v Speaker 1>there's not one central field of play that everything's happening

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<v Speaker 1>on right, So they're always having to cut around, keep

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<v Speaker 1>people updated as to what's going on, and almost we

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<v Speaker 1>tell the story for the viewer because it's impossible to

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<v Speaker 1>know the story without having that because you can't watch

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<v Speaker 1>fifteen cameras at once to see everything going on in

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<v Speaker 1>the course. So the struggle is if they had they

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<v Speaker 1>probably have a golf producer for the most part doing

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<v Speaker 1>the producing these shows, and the guy doesn't know anything

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<v Speaker 1>except for this complicated, like very produced broadcast where you're

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<v Speaker 1>telling people what they need to know. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>if you had an NFL producer or an MBA producer

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<v Speaker 1>produce these matches, they turn out so much better because

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<v Speaker 1>they'd understand, Okay, all we have to do is put

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<v Speaker 1>the camera here, turn their mics on, and tell the

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<v Speaker 1>announcers just just add to this, do not talk over it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, allow the people to watch the game being played.

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<v Speaker 2>You would, you would hope that would be the case.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, with the ad of aast, at least

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<v Speaker 2>Peyton manning to the mix, and he's on the other

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<v Speaker 2>team from Phil, so it seems like those two guys

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<v Speaker 2>at least could have some back and forth and get

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit of a nice vibe going between them.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe that'll happen. But in any case, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>beyond the kind of critiques of the broadcast that I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure will come, I mean, there's always going to be

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<v Speaker 2>stuff to critique. I'm really looking forward to this match.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I really look forward to last week's match

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<v Speaker 2>and thoroughly enjoyed watching it and kind of being in

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<v Speaker 2>the golf community while it was happening. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>the same thing is going to happen with the Tiger

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<v Speaker 2>Film match. There will be a scene on Twitter, people

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<v Speaker 2>will be excited about it. It'll be something different to do,

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<v Speaker 2>and I just really appreciate that it's coming up. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's exciting and fun and it's great to see

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<v Speaker 2>golf again.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>The best case scenario, I think is like for this

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<v Speaker 1>to be a smashing success and it lead to more

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<v Speaker 1>of them, yeah, through the core of the year. Because

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<v Speaker 1>I love this format of golf. I really do believe

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<v Speaker 1>that there is an unbelievably great product in the idea

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<v Speaker 1>of these smaller matches.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's a format of golf that obviously has deep

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<v Speaker 2>historical roots. It goes back to the beginning of the game,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's what we're talking with Stephen Proctor about. Are

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<v Speaker 2>you ready to get into it?

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<v Speaker 1>Let's go I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

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<v Speaker 3>When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 5>And when I find my ball.

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<v Speaker 2>In a bright egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg

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<v Speaker 2>Frida egg egg Frida egg, bride egg lie, I'm about

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<v Speaker 2>ready to run off the golf course. Golf obviously existed

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<v Speaker 2>for a long time before the Open Championship, Prior to

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of major stroke play competition. How did golfers

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<v Speaker 2>measure themselves against each other the way that.

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<v Speaker 6>You measured yourself at the very beginning of golf. And

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<v Speaker 6>we're talking here about the early eighteen hundreds, So around

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<v Speaker 6>eighteen twenty nine, eighteen thirty, players start getting involved in

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<v Speaker 6>what was known as a challenge match. So what would

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<v Speaker 6>happen is a rich guy from your golf club would

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<v Speaker 6>put up one hundred pounds and challenge a rich guy

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<v Speaker 6>from a golf club in a rival town to put

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<v Speaker 6>up his best guy, and we'll play thirty six holes

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<v Speaker 6>a day over four different golf courses. You picked too,

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<v Speaker 6>and I picked two. Winner takes the pot. And that

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<v Speaker 6>was how it's started in the earliest days of golf.

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<v Speaker 6>And so you made your bones by winning those challenge

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<v Speaker 6>matches marathons, I mean marathons. Everyone you know you would

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<v Speaker 6>play what they might call a friendly, you know, thirty

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<v Speaker 6>six holes one day over a course for say ten

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<v Speaker 6>or twenty pounds sterling. But if you were going to

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<v Speaker 6>do a big match, it was always over multiple courses

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<v Speaker 6>a really great match. So all of the legendary matches

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<v Speaker 6>took place over at least three golf courses and sometimes four.

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<v Speaker 1>And it was the idea behind that to test, like

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<v Speaker 1>to see who the best better golfer was, because different

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<v Speaker 1>courses might favor different players.

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<v Speaker 5>There was certainly some of that in it.

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<v Speaker 6>A lot of it was there was huge town from

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<v Speaker 6>town rivalries, so Saint Andrews and Musselboro in particular were

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<v Speaker 6>massive rivals and they you know, so the towns wanted

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<v Speaker 6>to show off in front of their own people, so

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<v Speaker 6>they wanted at least one of the matches to held

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<v Speaker 6>on their links, and then they would be held on

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<v Speaker 6>neighboring links. Like a typical lineup would be. You played

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<v Speaker 6>at Saint Andrew's, Musselborough, North Berwick and Mirrorfield or someplace

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<v Speaker 6>like that, depending on the time of the age of

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<v Speaker 6>the match. But you would play three or four courses

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<v Speaker 6>and thirty six holes a day.

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<v Speaker 2>And so if you were to go out onto the

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<v Speaker 2>links during one of these big challenge matches, what would

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<v Speaker 2>you see.

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<v Speaker 6>What you would see is the same thing you might

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<v Speaker 6>see if you were out of prize fight. People in

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<v Speaker 6>the modern age who listen to everybody speaking whispers on

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<v Speaker 6>the golf broadcast have no idea what golf was like

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<v Speaker 6>at the beginning. It was insane. So there would be

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<v Speaker 6>a crowd depending on the match. Some of the matches

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<v Speaker 6>would bring thousands out, but the majority would bring hundreds,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, two or three hundred. But there were no

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<v Speaker 6>gallery ropes the players would have. The fan would be

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<v Speaker 6>crowded all around the players and circling them and in

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<v Speaker 6>some towns they got rather close to the opponent, so

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<v Speaker 6>much so that they tried purposely to constrict a swing

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<v Speaker 6>by just hemming him in. And a match always had

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<v Speaker 6>a referee, but they had a heck of a time

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<v Speaker 6>controlling the crowd. A lot of the time balls would

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<v Speaker 6>get kicked into gorse bushes, they would get stomped on,

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<v Speaker 6>So I mean it was a rowdy scene. The other

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<v Speaker 6>thing is gambling was a huge deal at these events.

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<v Speaker 6>Gambling was the very reason that the events existed. The

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<v Speaker 6>rich guys who put up the stakes, what they wanted

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<v Speaker 6>to do was bet. These were sporting gentlemen who had

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<v Speaker 6>land and property and big homes, and they didn't have

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<v Speaker 6>anything to do but do sporting things, and gambling is

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<v Speaker 6>one of their main things. They wanted to do on

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<v Speaker 6>whatever it was. So they would be betting like crazy,

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<v Speaker 6>and the townspeople would be betting like crazy. Players would

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<v Speaker 6>be betting on them, caddies, everybody was betting. There were

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<v Speaker 6>bookmakers walking up and down the side of the course,

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<v Speaker 6>and you could get a new bet if, for instance,

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<v Speaker 6>the match was really tilted heavily in one player's favor

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<v Speaker 6>and you wanted to take the other player you could

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<v Speaker 6>get twenty to one just from there to the end

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<v Speaker 6>of the match right now, and so it was a

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<v Speaker 6>pretty wild scene.

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<v Speaker 2>What kind of money could a professional golfer himself make

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<v Speaker 2>on one of these matches.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, you know, obviously in those days, professionals were looked

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<v Speaker 6>down upon by the people who ran the golfing establishment.

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<v Speaker 6>They were, you know, I think Horace Hutchinson once referred

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<v Speaker 6>to him as feckless, reckless creatures whose only loves are

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<v Speaker 6>golf and whiskey, which they would never have denied actually,

0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:38.280
<v Speaker 6>But in any case, they played for a tip. So

0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.480
<v Speaker 6>if you won, you would typically get something on the

0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.120
<v Speaker 6>order of ten percent of the steak. So let's say

0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:47.160
<v Speaker 6>the steak was one hundred pounds sterling, you might get

0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:48.559
<v Speaker 6>ten pounds if your guy.

0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.520
<v Speaker 3>Won, almost what a caddy gets now.

0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:52.479
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, exactly.

0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:56.679
<v Speaker 6>If your guy lost, well, you know, you hope he's

0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.480
<v Speaker 6>a bit generous, but you're not gonna get very much.

0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:01.880
<v Speaker 6>And so that's how it was at the beginning.

0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:06.840
<v Speaker 1>It's funny just listening to the description. It almost feels

0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:10.560
<v Speaker 1>like the sport completely flipped in a way where the

0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:14.920
<v Speaker 1>players were empowered. Everybody's quiet around them. There's ropes and

0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:18.000
<v Speaker 1>and the almost the focus in the whole match was

0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 1>centered around the fans.

0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:24.360
<v Speaker 6>Originally, yes, no, And you know there's so many famous

0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:27.120
<v Speaker 6>quotes from even at the Open Championship there were no

0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.680
<v Speaker 6>gallery ropes, So an Opening Championship that came down to

0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.040
<v Speaker 6>a closely contested final round.

0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:35.240
<v Speaker 5>Would be have a massive.

0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:37.960
<v Speaker 6>Crowd out there. They'd be you know, they're be an

0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:40.000
<v Speaker 6>umpire trying to keep them under control. And one of

0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:43.320
<v Speaker 6>you know, there's famous quotes like the players, please the players,

0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:44.959
<v Speaker 6>please respect the players.

0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:46.120
<v Speaker 5>And the person in the.

0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.319
<v Speaker 6>Crowd says, damn the players I've come to see and

0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.160
<v Speaker 6>you know, they they It was a different time then

0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:56.640
<v Speaker 6>and a lot a lot it's so much different than

0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:58.480
<v Speaker 6>what we experience now and a lot of ways, I

0:13:58.520 --> 0:13:59.560
<v Speaker 6>think better and more fun.

0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:04.559
<v Speaker 1>But I read somewhere that the different areas, like different

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 1>areas produced different types of players. Was that true, like

0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.240
<v Speaker 1>different you know, the guys from Musselborough had different skill

0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 1>set than the guys from you know, East Lothian.

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.320
<v Speaker 6>You know that's not you know, it's probably true in

0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:23.520
<v Speaker 6>some degree obviously, because really what was more true is

0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.600
<v Speaker 6>the course you played your golf on at home would

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 6>require different shots than the recourse that somebody else played

0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:31.080
<v Speaker 6>their golf on.

0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:33.080
<v Speaker 5>So, for instance, if you were.

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.480
<v Speaker 6>A player that played all their golf at North Barrick,

0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 6>you were a great approach shot player because that was

0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.880
<v Speaker 6>pretty much what you were doing all the time, was approaching.

0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.760
<v Speaker 5>You know, you didn't have the holes weren't especially long.

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.000
<v Speaker 6>It was a very tricky golf course, so you had

0:14:49.040 --> 0:14:51.320
<v Speaker 6>to be great at run up shots and chips and

0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.640
<v Speaker 6>all that. A player from there would be better at

0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.360
<v Speaker 6>those kinds of shots probably than a player from Musselborough

0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 6>who had less of those to make. And St Andrew's player,

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:03.040
<v Speaker 6>you know, they were great at the run up shot

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:06.440
<v Speaker 6>also because they played on super fast greens. Those greens

0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.320
<v Speaker 6>in those ages were very very quick compared to what

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.000
<v Speaker 6>players were experiencing, not so much today because the greenkeeping

0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:16.600
<v Speaker 6>is so much better, but the ground would get baked

0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.840
<v Speaker 6>out and it would be really hardly any grass on

0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:22.160
<v Speaker 6>it and be rolling pretty quick. So it was kind

0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.200
<v Speaker 6>of tough to stop a ball on it, and you

0:15:24.240 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 6>had to become expert at the art of running the

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.120
<v Speaker 6>ball up at a certain speed and letting it die

0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:30.680
<v Speaker 6>near the hole. And so they were they would come

0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.200
<v Speaker 6>with different skills. They did definitely take different mental approaches.

0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:37.400
<v Speaker 6>Like the Musclebirg players were way more aggressive than the

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 6>Saint Andrews players, who would play a type of goss

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.800
<v Speaker 6>that was described and as palky, sort of cautious keeping away.

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.960
<v Speaker 5>From the hazards. The Musclebird players were half crazy.

0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:50.280
<v Speaker 6>Like Willie Park he would bet people I can beat

0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.000
<v Speaker 6>you with one club, I can beat you standing on

0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.880
<v Speaker 6>one leg. I will play with your very expensive watch

0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.000
<v Speaker 6>as my t on all nine holes. And if i'dn't,

0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.800
<v Speaker 6>don't break it, its mine. That's the way, you know,

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.880
<v Speaker 6>things were approached there a little more sedate and upper

0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.040
<v Speaker 6>crust at Saint Andrews.

0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's the sense that I get reading some of

0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 2>these historical accounts that the Saint Andrew's players were considered

0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:19.600
<v Speaker 2>sort of you know, refined and boring in comparison to

0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.120
<v Speaker 2>the rowdy Muscleborough players. Right there was there was almost

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.600
<v Speaker 2>like a like a class conflict there or something.

0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.200
<v Speaker 6>Well, they were just different towns, you know. Saint Andrews

0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.120
<v Speaker 6>had the university and most of the nobility were members

0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 6>at Saint Andrews. Musselboro was was a coal mining town

0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 6>and a lot more industrial, you know, with so as

0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:45.000
<v Speaker 6>always in the case, you know, the the industrial town's

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.520
<v Speaker 6>probably going to be a little more loose around the

0:16:47.600 --> 0:16:51.400
<v Speaker 6>edges than the university town, and that that was reflected

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:52.280
<v Speaker 6>in the golf for sure.

0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 1>It kind of reflects of us the way American team

0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 1>sports are, where different different stadiums have different dynas, especially

0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.000
<v Speaker 1>like say in college football, you know, going to Notre

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:06.080
<v Speaker 1>Dames a lot different than going to LSU.

0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.520
<v Speaker 6>That is a perfect analogy, and that's the way it was.

0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.760
<v Speaker 6>Every course developed somewhat of a culture on its own,

0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:17.919
<v Speaker 6>mostly based on its demographics and its membership, and so

0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:21.679
<v Speaker 6>there were differences there and they were great rivalries, you know,

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:23.840
<v Speaker 6>particularly between St Andrews and Musselborough.

0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.600
<v Speaker 2>Would you say, Steve that there was a kind of

0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Golden age of challenge matches at some point in the

0:17:32.480 --> 0:17:34.080
<v Speaker 2>eighteen hundreds.

0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.760
<v Speaker 6>Yes, the first really the Golden Age begins in eighteen

0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:42.160
<v Speaker 6>forty nine. And in eighteen forty nine Alan Robertson, who

0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.440
<v Speaker 6>was the great golfer of the age as far as

0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:48.040
<v Speaker 6>most people were concerned, and his apprentice at the time,

0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 6>Tom morse Or, who had been his apprentice, Tom had

0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.320
<v Speaker 6>just recently left to open his own shop. They play

0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.800
<v Speaker 6>a match against Jamie and Willie Dunn from Musselboro for

0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.560
<v Speaker 6>four hundred pounds sterling aside, which is an astronomical sum

0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:05.240
<v Speaker 6>of money in that age. Just to give you an example,

0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:09.200
<v Speaker 6>an average working man at that time earned less than

0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.480
<v Speaker 6>thirty pounds a year, probably closer to twenty, so four

0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.840
<v Speaker 6>hundred pounds sterling was quite a bit of money to

0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:19.360
<v Speaker 6>have riding on a match. They played it over multiple greens,

0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.840
<v Speaker 6>ending at North Barrick. I mean, excuse me, I'm forgetting

0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.240
<v Speaker 6>where they ended it right now because I'm nervous on

0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:29.480
<v Speaker 6>this podcast. But anyway, they played on multiple greens, and

0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.840
<v Speaker 6>it was weird because at the time, the way they

0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:35.840
<v Speaker 6>scored it is who won on the most golf courses,

0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.760
<v Speaker 6>not who won the most holes. Interesting made on four

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.360
<v Speaker 6>links and the person who won on three of them

0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.080
<v Speaker 6>was the winner of the match, and if two if

0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.520
<v Speaker 6>you won on two links each, then the match was halved.

0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.160
<v Speaker 6>And of course this match was the one that got

0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.000
<v Speaker 6>rid of that scoring system because the Duns, I think

0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 6>they won by thirteen holes at one of the four events,

0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.560
<v Speaker 6>but the Saint Andrew's guys squeaked by by a hole

0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:07.359
<v Speaker 6>on their own green, and then they barely win the

0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.959
<v Speaker 6>match at the end because the guys from Muscle Birr's

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:13.400
<v Speaker 6>ball get stuck under a rock, a big giant stone

0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.600
<v Speaker 6>sort of Tiger Woods like, just off to the left

0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.320
<v Speaker 6>of the fairway there, and they asked the umpire can

0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:23.440
<v Speaker 6>we move the stone? And of course, you know, they

0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:24.920
<v Speaker 6>were not going to haul out a crew like they

0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.600
<v Speaker 6>did for Tiger and move the stone. They said, of course,

0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.280
<v Speaker 6>you can't move the stone. It's an integral part of

0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:30.919
<v Speaker 6>the golf course. You got to play your shot. So

0:19:30.920 --> 0:19:34.240
<v Speaker 6>they're hacking away, hacking away, hacking away. They don't get

0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:36.119
<v Speaker 6>it out. They lose the hole by a million miles,

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 6>which they should have won pretty easily if they hadn't

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 6>hit it under the stone. And then they lost that match,

0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.199
<v Speaker 6>and that was the one that decided it. But they

0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.800
<v Speaker 6>had won by multiple, multiple holes if you counted the

0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.919
<v Speaker 6>holes over the four golf courses. So that changed that.

0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:50.920
<v Speaker 6>But that was such a big deal at the time.

0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:53.399
<v Speaker 6>It got written about for one hundred years afterwards, and

0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:55.960
<v Speaker 6>every kid who grew up after that, you know, grew

0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:58.520
<v Speaker 6>up with that as a legend of their lifetime. And

0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.880
<v Speaker 6>so that was when it begins, and really it extends

0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:07.920
<v Speaker 6>as a major major thing through about eighteen seventy three,

0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.840
<v Speaker 6>I would say is sort of a turning point. Tommy

0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.040
<v Speaker 6>Moose Junior by then is a big superstar. He and

0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.280
<v Speaker 6>Davey Strath pay two one hundred and eight hole matches,

0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.000
<v Speaker 6>one in July and one in August at Saint Andrews.

0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:27.119
<v Speaker 6>Tommy hasn't been beaten in the Open Championship in four

0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:29.000
<v Speaker 6>the last four seasons.

0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:29.520
<v Speaker 5>Five.

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:31.439
<v Speaker 6>There wasn't an Open in eighteen seventy one, but he'd

0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:34.159
<v Speaker 6>won the last four Opens in a row. He was

0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.600
<v Speaker 6>pretty much invincible winning. You know, in eighteen seventy two

0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:39.760
<v Speaker 6>he'd won eighty percent of his events that he entered,

0:20:39.800 --> 0:20:41.639
<v Speaker 6>so he was winning at a clip that no one

0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.600
<v Speaker 6>had ever even conceived of. Just giant crowds came out

0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.240
<v Speaker 6>for that five or six thousand. The Ladies Home Journal

0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:51.239
<v Speaker 6>covered it for Christ's Sake, and that was probably the

0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 6>heyday of it, and the thing that was, I would say,

0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:56.560
<v Speaker 6>the biggest one that has ever occurred.

0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:57.840
<v Speaker 5>After that.

0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.359
<v Speaker 6>It still continues really up through the early nineteen hundreds,

0:21:01.560 --> 0:21:04.959
<v Speaker 6>but less frequently, and other things become more popular, like

0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:07.040
<v Speaker 6>tournaments and exhibitions and things like that.

0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:10.600
<v Speaker 1>Listen, you talk about it It's almost like these are

0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.840
<v Speaker 1>like playoff series, you know, with the with the multiple days,

0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:17.439
<v Speaker 1>the multiple courses, and I imagine just like you see

0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:22.919
<v Speaker 1>in a series of in the NBA, where you know,

0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.200
<v Speaker 1>every game the relationship between the opposing parties gets a

0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.520
<v Speaker 1>little bit more contentious and chippy. Is the same same

0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.760
<v Speaker 1>thing that happened And is there any specific examples of

0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:38.760
<v Speaker 1>this type of relationship evolving through a match?

0:21:39.000 --> 0:21:39.800
<v Speaker 5>Oh, my gosh ya.

0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:44.639
<v Speaker 6>So eighteen seventy there is the third in a series

0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:48.359
<v Speaker 6>of great matches between Old Tom Morris and Willie Park

0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.880
<v Speaker 6>senior guy. He was betting that he could play nine

0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:51.880
<v Speaker 6>holes from their top.

0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:52.320
<v Speaker 5>Of your watch.

0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:58.280
<v Speaker 6>So the last last round of that match takes place

0:21:58.320 --> 0:22:03.000
<v Speaker 6>in Mustleboro, Willy's hometown. That is a prescription obviously for disaster.

0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.080
<v Speaker 6>Tom is winning too at the time, which is which

0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:11.920
<v Speaker 6>is also stokes up the partisan pride quite a lot. Anyway,

0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:17.280
<v Speaker 6>the match got so incredibly contentious that the umpire halted

0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.679
<v Speaker 6>it because he said it was just impossible with the

0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.480
<v Speaker 6>behavior of this crowd for fair play to continue. They

0:22:23.480 --> 0:22:27.520
<v Speaker 6>were just really abusing Old Tom, physically crowding him around,

0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:30.120
<v Speaker 6>not letting him have a free swing, kicking his ball

0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.199
<v Speaker 6>into the bushes and everything I was mentioning before.

0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:34.280
<v Speaker 5>So the umpire stops the match.

0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:38.440
<v Speaker 6>And there's a bar there at Musselborough called Missus Foreman's

0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:40.320
<v Speaker 6>that was right off the golf cour I believe it's

0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:41.439
<v Speaker 6>off the fourth hole, but I'm not.

0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:43.720
<v Speaker 5>I can't remember right at the moment. In any case,

0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:44.400
<v Speaker 5>they go.

0:22:44.400 --> 0:22:46.960
<v Speaker 6>Into the bar there and the umpire says, we're gonna

0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:48.800
<v Speaker 6>cool off and we'll come back tomorrow and finish these

0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:51.639
<v Speaker 6>last six holes. And Willie Parks says, there is no

0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.119
<v Speaker 6>way that we are quitting, and he goes out and

0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:57.919
<v Speaker 6>plays the last six holes. Uh so the uh He

0:22:57.960 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 6>plays the last six holes and then he writes publicly

0:23:00.720 --> 0:23:04.120
<v Speaker 6>in the newspaper demanding the purse, saying.

0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:04.440
<v Speaker 5>That he'd won.

0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:06.920
<v Speaker 6>Tom had quit, that he had refused to come out

0:23:06.960 --> 0:23:09.640
<v Speaker 6>and play. Well, Tom was just doing what the umpire said.

0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:11.560
<v Speaker 5>So then the ends up.

0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:14.120
<v Speaker 6>The end result of this whole thing is Tom comes

0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.920
<v Speaker 6>out the next day, he plays the final six holes

0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:19.679
<v Speaker 6>with the umpire and has declared the winner. But he

0:23:19.720 --> 0:23:21.760
<v Speaker 6>had played the last six holes in twenty eight as

0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.080
<v Speaker 6>opposed to Willy's twenty two. So WILLI played far better

0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.240
<v Speaker 6>golf that particular afternoon and probably would have won the

0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:30.240
<v Speaker 6>match if it had been able to continue, if the

0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:34.280
<v Speaker 6>crowd had allowed him to continue. Anyway, the result was

0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.320
<v Speaker 6>that Willi sued and it ended up in court, and

0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:41.639
<v Speaker 6>it was the whole process was vacated by a judge.

0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.919
<v Speaker 6>So the match and everything that had happened was absolved. Nobody,

0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:47.119
<v Speaker 6>everybody got their money.

0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:48.560
<v Speaker 5>Back, and it was.

0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:52.640
<v Speaker 6>They didn't rejoin that battle until eighteen eighty two, when

0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.879
<v Speaker 6>Tom is sixty and Willy was twelve years younger than him.

0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:58.879
<v Speaker 6>So Willi was not you know, forty eight, not quite fifty,

0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:01.600
<v Speaker 6>and Tom crushed him then.

0:24:01.840 --> 0:24:06.439
<v Speaker 1>So the referees were, you know, still the the you know,

0:24:06.640 --> 0:24:09.040
<v Speaker 1>much controversial then as they are now.

0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:12.400
<v Speaker 6>Well you know that that particular referee was a guy

0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:16.200
<v Speaker 6>named Robert Chambers, and he, uh, he was a very

0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:20.880
<v Speaker 6>famous publisher, and you know, he loved the Morris family.

0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:24.000
<v Speaker 6>And when young Tommy died, it's he's the one that

0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:28.280
<v Speaker 6>writes the elegy to a golfer that is like this

0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:33.080
<v Speaker 6>really wonderfully overwrought poem in praise of young Tom. So

0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:35.960
<v Speaker 6>he may have you know, I would assume he was

0:24:36.000 --> 0:24:38.960
<v Speaker 6>an honorable man. But you know who certainly want Tom

0:24:39.000 --> 0:24:40.000
<v Speaker 6>to get his fair treatment.

0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:44.200
<v Speaker 2>So the Musclebirough crowd probably wasn't particularly kind toward his No,

0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:44.520
<v Speaker 2>you know.

0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:48.000
<v Speaker 6>They were notorious and late. Probably the last one of

0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:50.200
<v Speaker 6>the two or three last great matches ever takes place

0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:54.480
<v Speaker 6>in eighteen ninety nine between Harry Varden and Willie Parks

0:24:54.520 --> 0:24:58.879
<v Speaker 6>senior's son Willie Junior, and Willie wants the match to

0:24:58.880 --> 0:25:01.680
<v Speaker 6>be played at Musselboro, his course in Ganton where Harry

0:25:01.720 --> 0:25:04.520
<v Speaker 6>works at the time down in England, and Harry says,

0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 6>there is no force on earth that's getting me to

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:08.879
<v Speaker 6>play a match against you at Musselborough.

0:25:08.920 --> 0:25:09.400
<v Speaker 5>Forget it.

0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:12.119
<v Speaker 6>And they ended up doing it at North Berrick and Ganton,

0:25:12.119 --> 0:25:14.320
<v Speaker 6>but that was the reputation of Musselburg by that time.

0:25:14.320 --> 0:25:16.520
<v Speaker 6>Harry was like, that's not a not that's a non starter.

0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:18.160
<v Speaker 6>We are not playing there.

0:25:20.920 --> 0:25:21.440
<v Speaker 5>By then too.

0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.320
<v Speaker 6>But I think Harry's main concern was the crowd. He

0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:25.639
<v Speaker 6>feared no golf course.

0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:28.040
<v Speaker 1>And it was it was a place where a lot

0:25:28.080 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 1>of balls got kicked and stuff done.

0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:33.199
<v Speaker 6>Yes, it was a lot of things of an unsavory

0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:35.360
<v Speaker 6>natured when you were playing, and you if you were

0:25:35.400 --> 0:25:38.840
<v Speaker 6>not the player from Musselborough, if you were from Musselboro.

0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:40.160
<v Speaker 5>Well that was a different matter.

0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:45.400
<v Speaker 1>So you got the Parks, the the Morrises, Harry Varden,

0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:50.280
<v Speaker 1>who were some other formidable challenge match players.

0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:55.600
<v Speaker 6>Well, you know, Tommy and Davy were two great ones,

0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:57.760
<v Speaker 6>and they played a lot together and played as it

0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:00.560
<v Speaker 6>they they had a standing offer that they kept in

0:26:00.600 --> 0:26:04.359
<v Speaker 6>the paper. We'll take on any two for one hundred

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:06.120
<v Speaker 6>pounds sterling, and they're gonna.

0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Worried.

0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.080
<v Speaker 5>Pardon me, this would be Straf Davey Strath.

0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:15.280
<v Speaker 6>Yes, so they would offer had a standing offers. But Willy,

0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:16.800
<v Speaker 6>did anybody in the world who wants to take me

0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:17.720
<v Speaker 6>for a hundred bucks?

0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:20.639
<v Speaker 3>Here I am and the hey put it in a newspaper.

0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:21.359
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, it was.

0:26:21.400 --> 0:26:24.120
<v Speaker 6>They were published in Bell's Sporting Life for various places

0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:28.000
<v Speaker 6>like that here by challenge Willie Park.

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:29.200
<v Speaker 5>You know this is a great little story.

0:26:29.200 --> 0:26:32.600
<v Speaker 6>Willy Park in eighteen fifty four Senior he wants to

0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:36.399
<v Speaker 6>play Alan Roberts because Alan has this reputation of invincibility

0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.080
<v Speaker 6>and he doesn't believe it. He wants to play them

0:26:38.080 --> 0:26:41.600
<v Speaker 6>one on one. So he puts an advertisement in Bell's

0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:44.680
<v Speaker 6>Sporting Life saying I offer to play any player, and

0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:47.840
<v Speaker 6>then he names them Old Tom Morris, Alan Roberts and

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 6>names them and other for one hundred pounds aside, name

0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:54.560
<v Speaker 6>your day and name your courses and uh. Then they

0:26:54.560 --> 0:26:59.160
<v Speaker 6>don't answer the challenge. So he goes to the Royal

0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:02.000
<v Speaker 6>and Ancient Golf Club meeting at Saint Andrews and challenges

0:27:02.040 --> 0:27:06.800
<v Speaker 6>them in person. And Alan wouldn't take it up then either,

0:27:06.840 --> 0:27:09.480
<v Speaker 6>he you know, allan my own view, and there would

0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:11.760
<v Speaker 6>be a lot of horse storians who disagree, But my

0:27:11.800 --> 0:27:14.120
<v Speaker 6>own view is Alan thought if he played Willi, he'd

0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:18.679
<v Speaker 6>get killed and his reputation for invincibility would be destroyed.

0:27:19.000 --> 0:27:20.960
<v Speaker 5>And that is that is my personal view.

0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.640
<v Speaker 1>Is that something that happened regularly. Is where you know,

0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:27.480
<v Speaker 1>a if some if a player just knew they were

0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:30.399
<v Speaker 1>going to get beat, they just would decline the challenge.

0:27:31.000 --> 0:27:34.200
<v Speaker 6>You know, yes, at the beginning, it would happen sometimes.

0:27:34.440 --> 0:27:36.080
<v Speaker 6>You know, I think you might also take the view

0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:38.119
<v Speaker 6>that Alan felt like I have. You know, I'm the

0:27:38.200 --> 0:27:40.080
<v Speaker 6>King of the Hill. When you beat somebody, you can

0:27:40.119 --> 0:27:42.840
<v Speaker 6>come and challenge the King of the Hill. Garden refused

0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:45.920
<v Speaker 6>to accept the challenge from Willie Park initially, and then

0:27:46.000 --> 0:27:48.520
<v Speaker 6>Golf Magazine just called him right out. You know, you

0:27:48.560 --> 0:27:51.719
<v Speaker 6>can't be the champion and not accept the challenge. If

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:53.800
<v Speaker 6>you're going to be the champion and somebody challenges, you

0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.840
<v Speaker 6>got to answer the challenge. The papers were more aggressive

0:27:56.840 --> 0:28:00.199
<v Speaker 6>then too. You know, they would just call people right out,

0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:02.520
<v Speaker 6>you know, every time an Englishman won the Open, for

0:28:02.560 --> 0:28:05.760
<v Speaker 6>instance in eighteen nineties, they would have, you know, have

0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:08.920
<v Speaker 6>like an admonition to Scotland they better look to their

0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:11.320
<v Speaker 6>laurels at their own national game and this and that.

0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:13.200
<v Speaker 6>So papers are a little tougher then too.

0:28:13.880 --> 0:28:16.480
<v Speaker 2>I was going to ask about the newspapers. Actually, it

0:28:16.520 --> 0:28:18.240
<v Speaker 2>seems to me that there was a kind of like

0:28:18.320 --> 0:28:26.480
<v Speaker 2>symbiosis between the newspapers and these challenge match golfers in

0:28:26.920 --> 0:28:29.720
<v Speaker 2>building up the popularity of the game, right because the

0:28:29.760 --> 0:28:34.919
<v Speaker 2>matches made for such great content, as we would say today, Yeah,

0:28:35.160 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 2>retelling the stories of the matches in the papers was

0:28:38.960 --> 0:28:42.200
<v Speaker 2>great fun and also a great source of information for

0:28:42.360 --> 0:28:45.959
<v Speaker 2>historians today. And so would you say there was that

0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:51.640
<v Speaker 2>kind of relationship, this mutually beneficial relationship between the newspapers

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:55.560
<v Speaker 2>and the golfers all, you know, kind of with the

0:28:55.640 --> 0:28:58.560
<v Speaker 2>result of making the game more popular.

0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:01.960
<v Speaker 6>I would say that, yes there was a relationship, but

0:29:02.000 --> 0:29:04.640
<v Speaker 6>it was between the newspaper and the landed gentlemen who

0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:06.640
<v Speaker 6>put up the money for the match. You know, the

0:29:06.680 --> 0:29:08.760
<v Speaker 6>professional golfers were pretty much nothing.

0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:10.520
<v Speaker 5>Have you seen Shakespeare in Love.

0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:12.880
<v Speaker 6>There's one where the guy comes into the middle of

0:29:12.920 --> 0:29:15.680
<v Speaker 6>a theatrical performance sys who's out over there, and he says, oh, nobody,

0:29:15.760 --> 0:29:18.600
<v Speaker 6>he's the author, And that was pretty much the way

0:29:18.600 --> 0:29:20.040
<v Speaker 6>it was with professional golfers.

0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:22.760
<v Speaker 5>He's nobody, He's just the golfer. So it was good

0:29:22.800 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 5>for the.

0:29:23.040 --> 0:29:26.320
<v Speaker 6>Gentlemen who put up the stakes if it generated a

0:29:26.320 --> 0:29:28.560
<v Speaker 6>lot of interest, because then they could get a lot

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:30.920
<v Speaker 6>of action. That's what they were looking for, was betting action,

0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.560
<v Speaker 6>gambling action. A lot of them would be involved in

0:29:33.600 --> 0:29:37.720
<v Speaker 6>betting at multiple levels on these events. The newspapers was

0:29:37.760 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 6>good for the newspapers just because for the same reason

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:42.160
<v Speaker 6>everything is good for a newspaper, which is it makes

0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:43.040
<v Speaker 6>people pick it up.

0:29:42.920 --> 0:29:43.360
<v Speaker 5>And read it.

0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:46.719
<v Speaker 6>So they definitely But if they were doing anything for anybody,

0:29:46.760 --> 0:29:48.640
<v Speaker 6>it was not for a professional golfer. I can tell

0:29:48.640 --> 0:29:52.400
<v Speaker 6>you that they weren't even allowed in the clubhouse. They

0:29:52.400 --> 0:29:54.800
<v Speaker 6>had to change their shoes in a shack somewhere. You know,

0:29:54.840 --> 0:30:00.320
<v Speaker 6>they weren't They weren't getting any love from anybody except

0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:02.560
<v Speaker 6>the person they won money for usually.

0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:05.840
<v Speaker 2>So moving forward in time a little bit, right now,

0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:08.920
<v Speaker 2>I know you're working on a book about the eighteen nineties.

0:30:09.320 --> 0:30:13.480
<v Speaker 2>By the eighteen nineties, obviously the Open Championship is very

0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 2>well established. It's been going on for three decades, I

0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:20.680
<v Speaker 2>suppose it at that point, and that helps to usher

0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 2>in not exactly maybe a stroke play era, but more

0:30:26.320 --> 0:30:31.200
<v Speaker 2>popularity and validity for this tournament's stroke play format. And

0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:34.880
<v Speaker 2>so by the eighteen nineties, with the Open Championship happening,

0:30:35.280 --> 0:30:39.800
<v Speaker 2>what is the importance of challenge matches at that point, Well,

0:30:39.840 --> 0:30:40.240
<v Speaker 2>you got to.

0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:44.320
<v Speaker 6>Keep in mind that the Open Championship was the only

0:30:45.240 --> 0:30:49.960
<v Speaker 6>regular stroke play event that happened annually at that time

0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 6>for professional golfers for a while, but it didn't last forever.

0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:57.080
<v Speaker 6>Saint Andrews had an annual tournament as well for professionals

0:30:57.440 --> 0:31:00.400
<v Speaker 6>that was associated with one of their meetings. Almost all

0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:03.840
<v Speaker 6>golf events were associated with the meeting of a club

0:31:04.200 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 6>of the Royal and Ancient of the Honorable Company of

0:31:06.280 --> 0:31:09.200
<v Speaker 6>North Berwick, of Mirrorfield, or of one of those, so

0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:12.800
<v Speaker 6>almost all of it would be in association with that,

0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.400
<v Speaker 6>and in fact, the Challenge matches were originally put on

0:31:15.480 --> 0:31:18.120
<v Speaker 6>as entertainment for the rich gentleman and the people who

0:31:18.120 --> 0:31:20.680
<v Speaker 6>attended the meaning and also an opportunity to gamble.

0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:22.120
<v Speaker 5>Then when you.

0:31:22.120 --> 0:31:25.440
<v Speaker 6>Get into the eighteen nineties, the thing that changes about

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:28.280
<v Speaker 6>challenge matches is that now you're in a period where

0:31:28.320 --> 0:31:31.640
<v Speaker 6>golf courses are opening all over England and Scotland like

0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:35.720
<v Speaker 6>never before, and so what really becomes the money making

0:31:35.760 --> 0:31:38.960
<v Speaker 6>machine for professional golfers And that changed the equation for

0:31:39.000 --> 0:31:43.880
<v Speaker 6>them financially. The most is that exhibition matches. One day,

0:31:43.920 --> 0:31:47.040
<v Speaker 6>little exhibition that you put on a foursome of Harry

0:31:47.080 --> 0:31:51.000
<v Speaker 6>Varden and John Henry Taylor against James Braid and Sandy Hurd,

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:54.840
<v Speaker 6>say to Scotsman, two englishmen to open the new course

0:31:55.640 --> 0:31:58.520
<v Speaker 6>that's coming up here in Lancashire or whatever it is,

0:31:58.960 --> 0:32:00.680
<v Speaker 6>and then you would get a paid to set fee

0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:03.520
<v Speaker 6>or peer you know, and so like for instance, Harry

0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.280
<v Speaker 6>Varden and John Henry Taylor and those guys, they were

0:32:06.320 --> 0:32:11.320
<v Speaker 6>making sixteen pounds ten to fifteen pounds for every single

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.520
<v Speaker 6>exhibition they appeared in win loser draw. They might be

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.560
<v Speaker 6>able to do as many as twenty or thirty of

0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:20.560
<v Speaker 6>those in a year, and so that was a big,

0:32:20.600 --> 0:32:23.680
<v Speaker 6>big chunk, the majority chunk of their income at that time.

0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:25.600
<v Speaker 6>They'd be working for a club that was paying them

0:32:25.600 --> 0:32:29.280
<v Speaker 6>somewhere between fifty pounds and seventy five pounds, probably more

0:32:29.280 --> 0:32:32.200
<v Speaker 6>for champions, but you know they weren't. Their base salary

0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:34.760
<v Speaker 6>was low, and they were making their money in exhibition

0:32:34.880 --> 0:32:38.080
<v Speaker 6>matches and tournaments. To the extent that they were good

0:32:38.120 --> 0:32:40.959
<v Speaker 6>in tournaments, the tournaments only paid five places or six places,

0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:44.120
<v Speaker 6>sometimes ten, so you weren't gonna make a lot of

0:32:44.120 --> 0:32:45.840
<v Speaker 6>money in tournaments unless you were top of the leader,

0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:48.880
<v Speaker 6>were guide, so there were fewer of them, but you

0:32:48.960 --> 0:32:51.160
<v Speaker 6>still had to make your bones as a player by

0:32:51.200 --> 0:32:54.880
<v Speaker 6>winning a challenge match against an established golfer. For instance,

0:32:54.960 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 6>John Henry Taylor in eighteen ninety three, John Henry Taylor

0:32:58.640 --> 0:33:01.400
<v Speaker 6>is just starting out in this profession career. He's been

0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:04.560
<v Speaker 6>a professional for like two or three years now, and

0:33:04.600 --> 0:33:06.480
<v Speaker 6>he needs to make a name for himself. And so

0:33:06.560 --> 0:33:10.360
<v Speaker 6>happens that the Great Saint Andrew's golfer, Andrew Kircaudy, is

0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:13.120
<v Speaker 6>temporarily filling in at a course a train ride away

0:33:13.120 --> 0:33:15.480
<v Speaker 6>from him. So they set up a thirty six hole

0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:18.400
<v Speaker 6>home and home match between him, and Andrew Kircaudy his

0:33:18.920 --> 0:33:21.800
<v Speaker 6>the president of his golf club, does John Henry's and

0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:24.040
<v Speaker 6>Taylor wins, and then all of a sudden he starts

0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:26.880
<v Speaker 6>to get some recognition and some opportunities, and then the

0:33:26.880 --> 0:33:29.000
<v Speaker 6>following year he wins an Open championship and is the

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:31.680
<v Speaker 6>first Englishman to win the Open. So that's how you

0:33:31.680 --> 0:33:34.000
<v Speaker 6>would prove yourself, and some of it was your own

0:33:34.000 --> 0:33:36.280
<v Speaker 6>self confidence. You know, you went into the Open with

0:33:36.320 --> 0:33:38.520
<v Speaker 6>a lot more confidence if you could take down, one

0:33:38.560 --> 0:33:41.560
<v Speaker 6>on one a player who was always a threat to

0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:43.400
<v Speaker 6>win the Open and had been for many years.

0:33:43.880 --> 0:33:45.000
<v Speaker 5>So that was how they fit in.

0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:47.200
<v Speaker 6>Then there were fewer of them, but the big ones

0:33:47.200 --> 0:33:50.080
<v Speaker 6>were still huge. What I would consider to be the

0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:53.480
<v Speaker 6>finale happens in nineteen oh five when Scotland is just

0:33:53.560 --> 0:33:56.200
<v Speaker 6>getting killed on the golf course year after year by

0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:59.920
<v Speaker 6>the English, which you can imagine, nothing galls to scott

0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:05.040
<v Speaker 6>more than losing to the damn English. So they decide,

0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:06.520
<v Speaker 6>you know, that they're going to take them on it

0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:08.879
<v Speaker 6>what they would consider the true game, and they get

0:34:08.880 --> 0:34:12.920
<v Speaker 6>their two best players, James Heard and James Braid and

0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:17.480
<v Speaker 6>Sandy Heard, and they play a long four four green

0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.759
<v Speaker 6>thirty six holes a day match against Harry Varden and

0:34:20.840 --> 0:34:23.920
<v Speaker 6>John Henry Taylor, the two principal antagonists from England.

0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:26.400
<v Speaker 5>They just get annihilated.

0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:28.400
<v Speaker 6>I forget what the final score is, but it's like

0:34:28.440 --> 0:34:31.640
<v Speaker 6>thirteen and eleven, you know, thirteen soles up with eleven

0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:36.120
<v Speaker 6>to play, so complete humiliation for the Scots and that,

0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:38.799
<v Speaker 6>and then you know, after that they begin to really

0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:40.759
<v Speaker 6>fade from the scene. And that's pretty much the tail

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:41.640
<v Speaker 6>end of that age.

0:34:42.040 --> 0:34:46.680
<v Speaker 1>With the challenge matches, were they historically always two man

0:34:46.800 --> 0:34:50.480
<v Speaker 1>best ball or do they have different formats within the

0:34:50.880 --> 0:34:54.319
<v Speaker 1>you know, four rounds of thirty six holes at four

0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:55.120
<v Speaker 1>different courses.

0:34:55.640 --> 0:34:58.880
<v Speaker 6>They would always, in the beginning, always be played as

0:34:58.920 --> 0:35:02.520
<v Speaker 6>a foursome alternate shot. That was the only form of

0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:04.440
<v Speaker 6>golf really for the first three or three.

0:35:04.360 --> 0:35:05.320
<v Speaker 5>Hundred and some years.

0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:08.799
<v Speaker 6>Then they then occasionally they would have a single because

0:35:08.840 --> 0:35:12.360
<v Speaker 6>they wanted Tom versus Willie, you know, but they only

0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:16.280
<v Speaker 6>had singles or foursomes. I'm not aware of any challenge

0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 6>match of consequence that was conducted as a better ball

0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:21.719
<v Speaker 6>that was a sort of an English. One of the

0:35:21.719 --> 0:35:23.879
<v Speaker 6>things that Scott's hated about the English is they they

0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:28.040
<v Speaker 6>hated the fact that the English loved handicap competitions far

0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:31.000
<v Speaker 6>as they were concerned, a real medal, a real cup

0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:33.759
<v Speaker 6>is won by the lowest score. This idea that you

0:35:33.760 --> 0:35:36.200
<v Speaker 6>could win without shooting the lowest score, they thought of.

0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:36.800
<v Speaker 5>Is insane.

0:35:36.920 --> 0:35:40.719
<v Speaker 6>That's not golf. They also hated stroke play. Freddie Tat,

0:35:40.760 --> 0:35:43.399
<v Speaker 6>who's probably one of the great Scott's golfers ever, would

0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:45.359
<v Speaker 6>say that what score play is no more a game

0:35:45.400 --> 0:35:49.759
<v Speaker 6>than rifle shooting. A game is when you play someone else, right,

0:35:49.880 --> 0:35:52.600
<v Speaker 6>And they they didn't like the exception with stroke play

0:35:52.600 --> 0:35:55.719
<v Speaker 6>in England. They particularly didn't like it with handicaps, and

0:35:55.760 --> 0:35:58.279
<v Speaker 6>they really hated the thing the English invented called the

0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:02.000
<v Speaker 6>bogie competition, where you played against par or you know

0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:04.880
<v Speaker 6>what was conceived then as par as opposed to against

0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:08.400
<v Speaker 6>an opponent at all, or even against a field. You

0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:10.960
<v Speaker 6>just played against what they called the ground score of

0:36:10.960 --> 0:36:11.400
<v Speaker 6>the course.

0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:16.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious if you know anything about it, But you

0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:19.879
<v Speaker 1>know what, I'm just thinking about golf today and golf then,

0:36:20.040 --> 0:36:24.760
<v Speaker 1>and with match play, and you had these rascius highly

0:36:24.760 --> 0:36:29.320
<v Speaker 1>engaged crowds watching these challenge matches. How did crowds differ

0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:32.480
<v Speaker 1>in like the Open, with the stroke play competition? Were

0:36:32.480 --> 0:36:35.560
<v Speaker 1>they bigger or were they smaller? Were they more tamed?

0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:37.480
<v Speaker 1>Do you know anything about that?

0:36:38.000 --> 0:36:42.480
<v Speaker 6>Yes, the open crowds were tended to be not as

0:36:42.560 --> 0:36:46.280
<v Speaker 6>big as a super powerful match like Tommy versus Davy,

0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:49.520
<v Speaker 6>or Willie versus Old Tom or that one that I

0:36:49.600 --> 0:36:51.480
<v Speaker 6>was just speaking of in nineteen oh five. Those might

0:36:51.520 --> 0:36:55.000
<v Speaker 6>get ten thousand people there, and open will usually get

0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:58.880
<v Speaker 6>somewhere closer to a thousand, maybe two thousand for a

0:36:58.960 --> 0:37:01.440
<v Speaker 6>really big one, you know, and some of them, like

0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:04.080
<v Speaker 6>when Tommy was in the position to win the belt

0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:06.880
<v Speaker 6>in eighteen seventy, there was a very large crowd for

0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:10.640
<v Speaker 6>that one. But on the rule, they would be smaller crowds,

0:37:10.680 --> 0:37:13.600
<v Speaker 6>and they would also be a little better behaved because,

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:16.920
<v Speaker 6>especially in the early rounds, because there wasn't quite the

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:20.280
<v Speaker 6>partisan fervor that's involved in a match. A match almost

0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.560
<v Speaker 6>always involved, like you were saying, Andy Town against Town,

0:37:24.120 --> 0:37:26.759
<v Speaker 6>and that just creates a different level of, you know,

0:37:26.840 --> 0:37:30.560
<v Speaker 6>fan fervor than watching somebody play good golf against the

0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:33.640
<v Speaker 6>whole field. It would get rowdy in a final, though,

0:37:33.760 --> 0:37:36.560
<v Speaker 6>if it was close, like eighteen ninety eight, you know,

0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:39.520
<v Speaker 6>the final between Harry Varden and Willie Park Junior at

0:37:39.560 --> 0:37:42.279
<v Speaker 6>Prestwick comes down to one stroke on the eighteenth toll

0:37:42.360 --> 0:37:44.839
<v Speaker 6>from four feet away. You know that one would get

0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:47.960
<v Speaker 6>loud and difficult for players, but most of the time

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:49.800
<v Speaker 6>was a little bit more sedate than a match.

0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:53.719
<v Speaker 2>So I want to try out a theory here. It

0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:58.200
<v Speaker 2>seems like the more the kind of center of power

0:37:58.360 --> 0:38:01.400
<v Speaker 2>in the game of golf moved away from Scotland, the

0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:07.319
<v Speaker 2>more the challenge match declined as the primary form of

0:38:07.440 --> 0:38:11.240
<v Speaker 2>golf or the most important or prestigious form of golf.

0:38:11.640 --> 0:38:15.440
<v Speaker 2>Right because by the early nineteen hundred's the game has

0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:19.759
<v Speaker 2>obviously expanded to England and become very important there, and

0:38:19.800 --> 0:38:23.439
<v Speaker 2>it's also beginning to become important in the US. And

0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:26.960
<v Speaker 2>it seems like in England and the US there aren't

0:38:26.960 --> 0:38:30.319
<v Speaker 2>these kind of rooted traditions of matches that right from

0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:33.279
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, you know, stroke play seems to be the

0:38:33.320 --> 0:38:36.239
<v Speaker 2>most prestigious way to play the game and to identify

0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:39.520
<v Speaker 2>the best players. So is there some validity to that

0:38:39.600 --> 0:38:43.480
<v Speaker 2>where you know, as golf moves away from Scotland, that

0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:47.160
<v Speaker 2>the challenge match kind of you know, declines as the

0:38:47.200 --> 0:38:48.360
<v Speaker 2>power moves elsewhere.

0:38:49.160 --> 0:38:52.400
<v Speaker 6>That is completely true, Garrett, and it's true on a

0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:55.440
<v Speaker 6>much broader scale than that. You know, the farther the

0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:59.439
<v Speaker 6>game moves in St Andrew's and the center of the game,

0:38:59.440 --> 0:39:02.920
<v Speaker 6>which was then in Fife and East Lothian, the farther

0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:06.520
<v Speaker 6>it drifted from its traditions and the more different it became.

0:39:07.160 --> 0:39:10.120
<v Speaker 6>And that really picked up speed in England, as I

0:39:10.160 --> 0:39:12.600
<v Speaker 6>was mentioning a couple minutes ago, with the handicap competitions

0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:15.320
<v Speaker 6>and the focus on stroke play. But the killer is

0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:18.440
<v Speaker 6>when it moves and gets big in America, because Americans

0:39:18.480 --> 0:39:21.439
<v Speaker 6>had a whole different point of view on the game

0:39:21.840 --> 0:39:25.040
<v Speaker 6>than Scott's. For one thing, they practiced like crazy, and

0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:28.000
<v Speaker 6>no Englishmen or Scotsmen ever practiced.

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:29.240
<v Speaker 5>They just played.

0:39:29.719 --> 0:39:32.279
<v Speaker 6>They might practice in the sense of taking a club

0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 6>they were having trouble with somewhere out in the middle

0:39:34.640 --> 0:39:36.440
<v Speaker 6>of the golf course and hitting a lot of strokes

0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:38.399
<v Speaker 6>with it to see if they could figure it out,

0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:42.480
<v Speaker 6>But they didn't practice the way Americans practiced. And Americans

0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:47.160
<v Speaker 6>also were much more individualistic as a culture than any

0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:51.840
<v Speaker 6>European culture that I know of, and so the focus

0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:55.600
<v Speaker 6>on your score in America was quadruple even what it

0:39:55.719 --> 0:39:59.319
<v Speaker 6>was in England. So yes, the more that it went

0:39:59.320 --> 0:40:03.440
<v Speaker 6>away from sc the more different the game became. And

0:40:03.480 --> 0:40:06.719
<v Speaker 6>that applied first to challenge matches and then to lots

0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:07.480
<v Speaker 6>of other things.

0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:12.560
<v Speaker 1>It seemed like in America the origins centered around exhibition

0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:16.680
<v Speaker 1>matches that which you already alluded to, took away from

0:40:16.719 --> 0:40:20.760
<v Speaker 1>some of the challenge matches and as well as tournament play.

0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:23.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that was definitely in America.

0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:26.120
<v Speaker 6>There was very regular scheduled tournaments from the outset, and

0:40:26.160 --> 0:40:28.800
<v Speaker 6>by that time there were very regular scheduled tournaments in

0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:29.439
<v Speaker 6>England too.

0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:29.920
<v Speaker 5>You know.

0:40:29.960 --> 0:40:32.359
<v Speaker 6>At nineteen oh one is when the British Professional Golf

0:40:32.400 --> 0:40:36.560
<v Speaker 6>Association is formed and they set up a whole qualifying

0:40:36.600 --> 0:40:40.080
<v Speaker 6>system for their new championship, the PGA Championship, which in

0:40:40.120 --> 0:40:42.200
<v Speaker 6>those days was sponsored by the News of the World

0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:44.960
<v Speaker 6>newspaper and was known as the News of the World Championship.

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:47.239
<v Speaker 5>And so there was a whole series.

0:40:46.960 --> 0:40:50.440
<v Speaker 6>Of tenor tournaments during the year that earned you quality,

0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:53.360
<v Speaker 6>you know, points or whatever to get into their championship

0:40:53.400 --> 0:40:55.360
<v Speaker 6>at the end of the year. So that's the beginning

0:40:55.440 --> 0:40:59.320
<v Speaker 6>of what an actual schedule is. And that so America

0:40:59.440 --> 0:41:02.279
<v Speaker 6>doesn't really start golf seriously till about eighteen eighty eight.

0:41:02.719 --> 0:41:05.360
<v Speaker 6>So by the time American golf gets really going in

0:41:05.400 --> 0:41:08.160
<v Speaker 6>the early nineteen hundreds, after Harry Varden pays a visit

0:41:08.200 --> 0:41:10.840
<v Speaker 6>there in nineteen hundred. They already have the benefit of

0:41:10.880 --> 0:41:13.400
<v Speaker 6>seeing how the structure has been created over in Britain,

0:41:13.600 --> 0:41:16.480
<v Speaker 6>and they just replicate it pretty much event for event,

0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:17.840
<v Speaker 6>tournament for tournament.

0:41:18.360 --> 0:41:22.040
<v Speaker 1>And in a way, that tournament schedule was created in

0:41:22.160 --> 0:41:27.520
<v Speaker 1>order to create similar competitions across the country to get

0:41:27.600 --> 0:41:29.680
<v Speaker 1>qualifiers for the big tournament.

0:41:29.800 --> 0:41:31.080
<v Speaker 3>So it wasn't you.

0:41:31.000 --> 0:41:34.920
<v Speaker 1>Know, it was a way to accurately measure, you know,

0:41:34.960 --> 0:41:38.400
<v Speaker 1>who the rightful players were to be in the in

0:41:38.440 --> 0:41:39.240
<v Speaker 1>the big tournament.

0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:41.440
<v Speaker 6>Yes, that was a big part of it, Andy, And

0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:44.480
<v Speaker 6>another part of it was what professionals needed was more

0:41:44.520 --> 0:41:47.879
<v Speaker 6>opportunities to earn money, and so it created many, many

0:41:47.880 --> 0:41:51.200
<v Speaker 6>more opportunities to earn money in tournaments. Honestly, in some

0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:53.480
<v Speaker 6>ways it's like today's tour because it's kind of aimed

0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:56.640
<v Speaker 6>more at the middling professional than at the John Henry

0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:58.719
<v Speaker 6>Taylors and Harry Varden's of the world.

0:41:58.600 --> 0:42:02.080
<v Speaker 1>Because they could still earn way more doing a challenge match.

0:42:02.080 --> 0:42:05.759
<v Speaker 1>They could earn the most of anything doing a challenge match,

0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:08.839
<v Speaker 1>just like you know, Phil and Tiger showed last year

0:42:09.280 --> 0:42:11.239
<v Speaker 1>that they could just play for the same amount of

0:42:11.239 --> 0:42:14.080
<v Speaker 1>money as the fed X Cup. Yes, the entire tournament,

0:42:14.239 --> 0:42:16.480
<v Speaker 1>the entire year, competition one day.

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.880
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well in that age, yes, But I think, really

0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:22.560
<v Speaker 6>Andy is what happened is if you were a championship winner,

0:42:22.760 --> 0:42:25.280
<v Speaker 6>you were the one that got invited to every exhibition match,

0:42:25.400 --> 0:42:27.560
<v Speaker 6>So you just cashing just to ring it up the

0:42:27.600 --> 0:42:30.960
<v Speaker 6>cash register, you know, twice a month, three times a month.

0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:34.279
<v Speaker 6>Whereas if you were in fifty second, well then you

0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:37.840
<v Speaker 6>probably didn't get invited. But when there was fifteen tournaments

0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:40.479
<v Speaker 6>during the year instead of three, you know, you could

0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:42.200
<v Speaker 6>put in your alger to participate in all of them.

0:42:42.239 --> 0:42:44.440
<v Speaker 6>By virtue of your membership in the PGA. As a

0:42:44.440 --> 0:42:48.000
<v Speaker 6>golf professional, you then had many more opportunities to earn

0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:50.600
<v Speaker 6>money and to get yourself noticed that might get you

0:42:50.640 --> 0:42:53.719
<v Speaker 6>invited to an exhibition match or a challenge match. So

0:42:53.920 --> 0:42:56.440
<v Speaker 6>it was a multiple multipurpose thing. A lot of it

0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:59.560
<v Speaker 6>was just to create more opportunity for the professional golfer.

0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:03.280
<v Speaker 2>So the you know, the challenge match has morphed into

0:43:03.680 --> 0:43:06.640
<v Speaker 2>something else. It morphed into something else in the twentieth century,

0:43:07.280 --> 0:43:10.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe even by like the nineteen tens by the Warriors,

0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:14.640
<v Speaker 2>when Bobby Jones was playing some of these exhibition matches,

0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:18.480
<v Speaker 2>and then of course by the sixties we have Shell's

0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:22.120
<v Speaker 2>Wonderful World of Golf and these different from that point on,

0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:27.120
<v Speaker 2>these different permutations of a television product designed around a

0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 2>match between well known players, and so, you know, the

0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:37.480
<v Speaker 2>role of matches between prominent players has completely changed has

0:43:37.560 --> 0:43:40.640
<v Speaker 2>it has become something else? And that's what we have

0:43:40.760 --> 0:43:44.719
<v Speaker 2>today with these matches during the pandemic. They're they're on

0:43:44.880 --> 0:43:49.080
<v Speaker 2>that model of the kind of television product that has

0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:53.800
<v Speaker 2>a charitable intention and that features the best known players

0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:56.920
<v Speaker 2>of the day, but nobody really takes them seriously as

0:43:56.960 --> 0:43:58.680
<v Speaker 2>a measure of who's the best player.

0:43:59.360 --> 0:44:01.520
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, no, no, I would think they are thought of really,

0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:04.799
<v Speaker 6>as you know. I love the one that they did

0:44:05.400 --> 0:44:08.560
<v Speaker 6>at last year between Tiger and Phil. I mean, there

0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:10.480
<v Speaker 6>was a lot of things that were wrong with the broadcasting,

0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:13.279
<v Speaker 6>this and that. But Andy, you talked about this on

0:44:13.320 --> 0:44:15.880
<v Speaker 6>your podcast and I had the exact same observation. I

0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:17.719
<v Speaker 6>live on a farm with my brother in law who's

0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:20.640
<v Speaker 6>a rugby player. All of his friends are rugby players.

0:44:20.960 --> 0:44:24.120
<v Speaker 6>I watched the event up in his game room with

0:44:24.360 --> 0:44:27.520
<v Speaker 6>like twenty rugby players. You know, they play golf, but

0:44:27.560 --> 0:44:30.040
<v Speaker 6>they play golf mainly to drink, you know what I mean, and.

0:44:29.960 --> 0:44:30.920
<v Speaker 5>To hang around with their buddies.

0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.040
<v Speaker 6>They're not golfers in the classical sense of the world,

0:44:33.040 --> 0:44:34.000
<v Speaker 6>but they love that match.

0:44:34.000 --> 0:44:35.560
<v Speaker 5>They were betting money on shots.

0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.759
<v Speaker 6>They were just really interacting with golf in a way

0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 6>that you seldom see what I would consider to be

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:43.319
<v Speaker 6>the routine sports fan, which they all are. They live

0:44:43.360 --> 0:44:45.920
<v Speaker 6>around sports, especially college football.

0:44:46.280 --> 0:44:47.520
<v Speaker 5>Just loving golf like that.

0:44:47.960 --> 0:44:50.359
<v Speaker 6>I don't know that we've never had an individual get

0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:54.800
<v Speaker 6>together that was golf related, except a Masters with Scotty's friends.

0:44:55.120 --> 0:44:57.840
<v Speaker 6>So it was kind of interesting in that way. But

0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:00.480
<v Speaker 6>it's more of I don't think I think it has

0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:03.719
<v Speaker 6>the same cachet as a challenge match anymore because it's

0:45:03.719 --> 0:45:07.719
<v Speaker 6>not a serious competition. It's sort of a show that's

0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:08.319
<v Speaker 6>being put on.

0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:12.600
<v Speaker 1>I think there's also a lack of hometown pride, you know,

0:45:12.680 --> 0:45:17.120
<v Speaker 1>where these these towns, and it's the same way with like,

0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:20.400
<v Speaker 1>you know, I just finished watching The Last Dance, and

0:45:20.440 --> 0:45:22.440
<v Speaker 1>I grew up a Bulls fan. I had, you know,

0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:25.720
<v Speaker 1>I have tremendous Bulls pride, you know, no matter who's

0:45:25.719 --> 0:45:26.280
<v Speaker 1>on the team.

0:45:26.320 --> 0:45:29.640
<v Speaker 3>But obviously those years where you're you're you're rooting for

0:45:29.719 --> 0:45:31.560
<v Speaker 3>your team and you're rooting for your player.

0:45:31.880 --> 0:45:34.200
<v Speaker 1>One of the things that these head to head matches

0:45:34.600 --> 0:45:38.279
<v Speaker 1>provide is an opportunity. It's like similar when you know,

0:45:38.360 --> 0:45:40.920
<v Speaker 1>I get in the debate between Ernie and Phil all

0:45:40.960 --> 0:45:43.479
<v Speaker 1>the time and you see the people that back Ernie

0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.040
<v Speaker 1>and the people that act Phil. Because it's a one

0:45:46.160 --> 0:45:49.120
<v Speaker 1>versus one, it's a much easier way. And I think

0:45:49.160 --> 0:45:52.560
<v Speaker 1>that's the thing with the difference between the golf tournaments

0:45:52.600 --> 0:45:56.960
<v Speaker 1>are better for the player, the whole group of professional players,

0:45:57.440 --> 0:46:00.759
<v Speaker 1>but for the fan and for the general public, the

0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:04.799
<v Speaker 1>challenge match is a much easier and approachable match to

0:46:05.000 --> 0:46:08.280
<v Speaker 1>watch because you don't have to you're never missing anything

0:46:08.719 --> 0:46:12.200
<v Speaker 1>in a tournament, you're missing ninety nine point nine percent

0:46:12.239 --> 0:46:15.600
<v Speaker 1>of the action because you're only watching one shot at

0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:17.479
<v Speaker 1>a time or one group at a time.

0:46:18.440 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 5>Exactly.

0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:22.319
<v Speaker 6>Andy, you're so right, And you know when they first

0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:25.160
<v Speaker 6>put out that Premier Golf League thing, I was thinking,

0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:27.480
<v Speaker 6>you know what they should do is they should resurrect

0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:31.960
<v Speaker 6>the Challenge Match. Let's have Adam Scott play a match

0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:36.520
<v Speaker 6>over four courses. Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath for Adam

0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:42.440
<v Speaker 6>Scott versus two courses that you know, some great golfer

0:46:42.440 --> 0:46:45.040
<v Speaker 6>in United States picks out as his courses that he

0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:48.080
<v Speaker 6>wants to play on. That would be fun for fans

0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:51.800
<v Speaker 6>to watch play two courses in Ireland with Rory against Brooks.

0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:55.760
<v Speaker 6>Brooks plays whatever to lousy as larda courses he wants

0:46:55.800 --> 0:46:58.760
<v Speaker 6>and Rory plays two great courses in Ireland.

0:46:59.640 --> 0:47:04.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, the possibilities are really tantalizing. But you know,

0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:09.040
<v Speaker 2>I think something that was missing from the first Tiger

0:47:09.120 --> 0:47:12.480
<v Speaker 2>film match and obviously you know I liked it too.

0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:15.280
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was I thought it was a great

0:47:15.360 --> 0:47:18.839
<v Speaker 2>idea in something that really generated unusual interests. So I'm

0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:22.600
<v Speaker 2>not trying to bash that match, But the fans weren't

0:47:22.640 --> 0:47:25.320
<v Speaker 2>really part of that match, right. We talked about how

0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:29.600
<v Speaker 2>integral the galleries the fans were and their rowdiness their

0:47:29.600 --> 0:47:33.279
<v Speaker 2>excitement were to the early Challenge matches, and the match

0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:36.399
<v Speaker 2>at Shadow Creek really lacked that. Now, of course, at

0:47:36.600 --> 0:47:39.719
<v Speaker 2>these matches during the pandemic, we can't have crowds, we

0:47:39.760 --> 0:47:44.080
<v Speaker 2>can't have fans for obvious reasons. But at Shadow Creek

0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:47.000
<v Speaker 2>I wish there had been a sense of that rowdiness.

0:47:47.040 --> 0:47:50.600
<v Speaker 2>I almost wish that that match had been played a

0:47:50.840 --> 0:47:55.200
<v Speaker 2>TPC Scottsdale or something to really see what was going

0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:57.960
<v Speaker 2>on in people's homes during that match, because I think

0:47:58.000 --> 0:48:01.200
<v Speaker 2>people were getting excited even if the level of the

0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:06.000
<v Speaker 2>golf wasn't very high. But the potential for drama in

0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:10.400
<v Speaker 2>a one versus one match like this is truly so high,

0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:15.040
<v Speaker 2>and I would love to see an engaged, big gallery.

0:48:15.680 --> 0:48:17.399
<v Speaker 3>I just thinking about this.

0:48:17.680 --> 0:48:21.080
<v Speaker 1>To me, it seems like the closest thing today to

0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:23.960
<v Speaker 1>challenge match is the Ryder Cup.

0:48:24.120 --> 0:48:25.839
<v Speaker 6>That is exactly what I was going to say, Andy,

0:48:25.880 --> 0:48:28.960
<v Speaker 6>I agree one hundred percent. The atmosphere, you know, the

0:48:29.040 --> 0:48:33.520
<v Speaker 6>incredible intense pride that's on the line between countries. That

0:48:33.640 --> 0:48:35.400
<v Speaker 6>is what a challenge match represented.

0:48:35.800 --> 0:48:40.319
<v Speaker 1>What's ironic is everybody's searching for, like you know, there's

0:48:40.360 --> 0:48:43.000
<v Speaker 1>a big power struggle. You know. One of the reasons

0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:46.480
<v Speaker 1>the PGA Tour might absorb the European Tour is just

0:48:46.600 --> 0:48:48.719
<v Speaker 1>because of the Ryder Cup and the amount of money

0:48:48.800 --> 0:48:52.040
<v Speaker 1>that's generated from it. So you have this uber profitable

0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:58.280
<v Speaker 1>you know property golf property that's essentially based the most

0:48:58.320 --> 0:49:02.840
<v Speaker 1>similar format of golf to the beginning of competition of golf,

0:49:02.840 --> 0:49:07.480
<v Speaker 1>which was also extraordinarily popular, and not just among golfers.

0:49:07.520 --> 0:49:09.799
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I imagine that this led a lot of

0:49:09.800 --> 0:49:12.640
<v Speaker 1>people interest to get interested in the game. I know

0:49:12.719 --> 0:49:16.200
<v Speaker 1>my friends love watching the Ryder Cup that aren't big golfers,

0:49:16.280 --> 0:49:19.640
<v Speaker 1>and it's like, and yet we still don't ever look

0:49:19.680 --> 0:49:22.520
<v Speaker 1>and say, why don't we do more of things like that?

0:49:22.640 --> 0:49:25.400
<v Speaker 1>And instead of doing things like it, they just tried

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.399
<v Speaker 1>to copy it with the President's Cup.

0:49:28.000 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 6>It's amazing to me, Andy that the PGA Tour and

0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:37.520
<v Speaker 6>the European Tour jointly cannot realize the formula that makes

0:49:37.600 --> 0:49:41.200
<v Speaker 6>their main event such a great success and completely ignore

0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:44.799
<v Speaker 6>it in every other enterprise they undertake. You know, it's

0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:47.480
<v Speaker 6>just like, I'm so baffled by that, and I just

0:49:47.840 --> 0:49:48.600
<v Speaker 6>don't get it.

0:49:49.080 --> 0:49:50.359
<v Speaker 5>I don't care what level you're at.

0:49:50.400 --> 0:49:53.040
<v Speaker 6>If there are two good golfers playing and they both

0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:55.960
<v Speaker 6>happen to have their game on that day, there's going

0:49:56.040 --> 0:49:59.360
<v Speaker 6>to be amazing drama in the you know, thrust and

0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:02.680
<v Speaker 6>perry of match compared to the kind of thing that

0:50:02.719 --> 0:50:05.800
<v Speaker 6>you see weekly on the PGA Tour. Last year's Amateurs

0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:08.680
<v Speaker 6>were both amazing matches. The one thing I would say

0:50:08.680 --> 0:50:11.560
<v Speaker 6>about the match that happened last year's I think the

0:50:11.560 --> 0:50:13.200
<v Speaker 6>fans would like it a lot more if they played

0:50:13.200 --> 0:50:15.160
<v Speaker 6>for their own money and it's not like they don't

0:50:15.160 --> 0:50:17.680
<v Speaker 6>have enough, then then you would get some stakes.

0:50:18.200 --> 0:50:18.960
<v Speaker 5>Let's play for.

0:50:19.000 --> 0:50:21.480
<v Speaker 6>Five million aside, and we're putting up the five million

0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:23.839
<v Speaker 6>now now we're talking.

0:50:23.960 --> 0:50:27.120
<v Speaker 1>Or even if it was just a part, even a portion,

0:50:27.640 --> 0:50:29.600
<v Speaker 1>if it's you know, we know we're gonna make a

0:50:29.600 --> 0:50:32.040
<v Speaker 1>bunch of money TV wise, and we can put money

0:50:32.080 --> 0:50:33.360
<v Speaker 1>from the TV pot.

0:50:33.160 --> 0:50:34.320
<v Speaker 3>In to make it bigger.

0:50:34.760 --> 0:50:38.040
<v Speaker 1>But even if it's one hundred thousand, you know, I

0:50:38.040 --> 0:50:41.640
<v Speaker 1>don't necessarily think it's the general it's it's the idea

0:50:42.120 --> 0:50:45.880
<v Speaker 1>that exchange of there's I have a really good buddy

0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:48.000
<v Speaker 1>that you know, he's a really he's a good player,

0:50:48.040 --> 0:50:50.279
<v Speaker 1>and we'd had we had a summer where we had

0:50:50.400 --> 0:50:53.440
<v Speaker 1>matches and I just kept beating him. In one match

0:50:53.440 --> 0:50:56.439
<v Speaker 1>he started, you know, he's he's three up or four

0:50:56.560 --> 0:50:59.640
<v Speaker 1>up through five holes like just in, he starts John.

0:50:59.719 --> 0:51:02.360
<v Speaker 1>He has and beating me in months and he's John

0:51:03.000 --> 0:51:05.960
<v Speaker 1>and up. I end up coming back and it was

0:51:06.080 --> 0:51:08.759
<v Speaker 1>just for twenty bucks. I end up coming back and

0:51:08.840 --> 0:51:11.600
<v Speaker 1>beating him and I have. He was so distraught at

0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:13.480
<v Speaker 1>the end of the round. He gave me the twenty

0:51:13.520 --> 0:51:16.920
<v Speaker 1>bucks and I have a picture of the twenty dollars

0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:19.880
<v Speaker 1>of a hand and him with his head in his hands,

0:51:20.440 --> 0:51:24.080
<v Speaker 1>and it's just whatever he calls me, it comes up,

0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>and it's just like that. Exchange of money is like

0:51:28.000 --> 0:51:31.120
<v Speaker 1>the worst Having to open your wallet and hand hand

0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:34.440
<v Speaker 1>your opponent money is one of the worst feelings in golf.

0:51:34.560 --> 0:51:36.200
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, and the rules should be that they have to

0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:38.920
<v Speaker 6>hand over the hunter k on the final hole if

0:51:38.920 --> 0:51:41.280
<v Speaker 6>you lose, hand it to him right there on eighteen.

0:51:42.120 --> 0:51:43.120
<v Speaker 5>Have it in a statuel.

0:51:43.320 --> 0:51:43.440
<v Speaker 1>You know.

0:51:43.480 --> 0:51:47.520
<v Speaker 6>I'd be fine with this the old rules, which is

0:51:47.960 --> 0:51:50.440
<v Speaker 6>somebody puts up a big stake and winner gets this percent,

0:51:50.520 --> 0:51:51.640
<v Speaker 6>loser gets no percent.

0:51:52.280 --> 0:51:54.799
<v Speaker 2>And it would bring out a different dimension of the

0:51:54.920 --> 0:51:58.080
<v Speaker 2>competition because something that I got the sense of, I

0:51:58.120 --> 0:51:59.920
<v Speaker 2>don't have any proof of this, but something that I

0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:02.959
<v Speaker 2>out the sense of in the first match was that

0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:07.719
<v Speaker 2>neither Tiger nor Phil was playing particularly well and they

0:52:07.760 --> 0:52:08.359
<v Speaker 2>didn't care.

0:52:08.680 --> 0:52:12.200
<v Speaker 6>Still cared, and Tiger didn't you know, maybe still to

0:52:12.239 --> 0:52:14.880
<v Speaker 6>win that match, at least, I think personally, and probably

0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:17.359
<v Speaker 6>just to have at least one thing he can say

0:52:17.360 --> 0:52:21.160
<v Speaker 6>about Tiger Woods, that's not he killed me. And but

0:52:21.239 --> 0:52:23.160
<v Speaker 6>I don't think Tiger cared a wit about whether he

0:52:23.200 --> 0:52:23.720
<v Speaker 6>won or didn't.

0:52:24.160 --> 0:52:29.719
<v Speaker 1>What What of the disadvantages of matches are blowouts? You know,

0:52:30.440 --> 0:52:32.640
<v Speaker 1>that's that's like one of the big fears is, oh,

0:52:32.640 --> 0:52:36.400
<v Speaker 1>it's a snooze fest because one guy plays lousy and

0:52:36.600 --> 0:52:40.799
<v Speaker 1>something I was. I went to the NBA All Star

0:52:40.920 --> 0:52:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Game this year, and that's always been one of the

0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:47.759
<v Speaker 1>big contentions of the All Star Game, was like, you know,

0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:50.680
<v Speaker 1>these guys don't try. It's not really a competition. And

0:52:50.719 --> 0:52:54.240
<v Speaker 1>they went with a new format this year, the Ela Mende,

0:52:54.680 --> 0:52:59.040
<v Speaker 1>which essentially gave a player once they reached you know,

0:52:59.120 --> 0:53:02.840
<v Speaker 1>the third quarter, they gave one team a certain amount

0:53:02.840 --> 0:53:06.840
<v Speaker 1>of advantage and it was play until here, until you

0:53:06.920 --> 0:53:09.920
<v Speaker 1>score this many points, and then all of a sudden,

0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:13.200
<v Speaker 1>it was like one of the most incredible games of

0:53:13.280 --> 0:53:16.080
<v Speaker 1>basketball I've ever seen, because you're seeing the best players

0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:19.319
<v Speaker 1>in the world all on this on two teams, and

0:53:19.400 --> 0:53:21.840
<v Speaker 1>they were playing it was like they were playing pickup basketball.

0:53:21.960 --> 0:53:24.800
<v Speaker 2>It was like pickup that's how you play pickup basketball.

0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:28.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So, Mike, I'm wondering if, like, if there was

0:53:28.320 --> 0:53:31.840
<v Speaker 1>a way you could do that, whereas almost you could

0:53:32.080 --> 0:53:35.800
<v Speaker 1>create a new type of format that's match play based,

0:53:36.239 --> 0:53:40.600
<v Speaker 1>but you know, after nine holes your lead transfers to

0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:44.120
<v Speaker 1>a you win, you need to win this many more

0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:46.280
<v Speaker 1>holes and it becomes almost sudden death.

0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:47.080
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:53:47.120 --> 0:53:48.879
<v Speaker 6>I think that would be fun. You know, I think

0:53:48.880 --> 0:53:51.279
<v Speaker 6>it requires some thinking out, but I love that kind

0:53:51.320 --> 0:53:54.520
<v Speaker 6>of thing. I think golf is not inventive enough. You know,

0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:57.360
<v Speaker 6>we just have the same seventy two whole grind every week.

0:53:57.560 --> 0:53:59.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it's you just got an experiment. You know,

0:54:01.040 --> 0:54:05.359
<v Speaker 2>how can we bring back some of the intensity of

0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:10.040
<v Speaker 2>the early days of challenge matches? How can we reintroduce

0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:15.120
<v Speaker 2>some of that drama and unpredictability and just playing insanity

0:54:15.320 --> 0:54:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to the game.

0:54:16.480 --> 0:54:19.920
<v Speaker 6>Alternate shot is a format that by its very nature

0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:23.400
<v Speaker 6>introduces a lot of volatility and instability into it. And

0:54:23.400 --> 0:54:24.560
<v Speaker 6>one of the things that I think is going to

0:54:24.600 --> 0:54:27.080
<v Speaker 6>be fun about Sunday's match is that a portion of

0:54:27.080 --> 0:54:29.040
<v Speaker 6>it is going to be played at alternate shot, and

0:54:29.080 --> 0:54:30.680
<v Speaker 6>then you're gonna have Tiger hitting it.

0:54:30.600 --> 0:54:33.600
<v Speaker 5>From wherever Brady, I mean, wherever Manning or whoever it is.

0:54:33.640 --> 0:54:35.439
<v Speaker 5>I think it's is it Tiger with Manning? Right?

0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:37.400
<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

0:54:37.480 --> 0:54:40.239
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, So you know, wherever he hits a tiger has

0:54:40.320 --> 0:54:42.799
<v Speaker 6>to play from, and you know there could be some

0:54:42.880 --> 0:54:45.239
<v Speaker 6>interesting adventures that go along with that. And that was

0:54:45.320 --> 0:54:48.840
<v Speaker 6>part of what made the early matches great to bet on,

0:54:49.040 --> 0:54:52.319
<v Speaker 6>because you never knew what would happen, because you know,

0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:56.000
<v Speaker 6>one player could be off form frequently. For instance, Tommy

0:54:56.000 --> 0:54:58.560
<v Speaker 6>played with his dad, and his dad's form was off

0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:00.399
<v Speaker 6>and on. He had a lot to do in life.

0:55:00.400 --> 0:55:02.640
<v Speaker 6>He was laying out golf courses, he was managing the

0:55:02.680 --> 0:55:03.720
<v Speaker 6>green as Saint Andrew's.

0:55:04.239 --> 0:55:05.560
<v Speaker 5>So his game came and went.

0:55:06.040 --> 0:55:08.520
<v Speaker 6>And you know, Tommy could beat most people's best ball

0:55:08.560 --> 0:55:10.960
<v Speaker 6>by himself, but a lot of days his father made

0:55:10.960 --> 0:55:15.920
<v Speaker 6>it impossible for him, and that introduced an element of uncertainty,

0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:18.880
<v Speaker 6>even against a great player like Tommy. That made it

0:55:18.920 --> 0:55:21.760
<v Speaker 6>great for betting and for interest. And I think alternate

0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:25.920
<v Speaker 6>shot is something that you know has really completely disappeared,

0:55:25.920 --> 0:55:28.320
<v Speaker 6>except you know, the mornings of the Ryder Cup or whatever.

0:55:28.880 --> 0:55:31.440
<v Speaker 6>And I think that's part of why match play was

0:55:31.480 --> 0:55:32.080
<v Speaker 6>so interesting.

0:55:32.120 --> 0:55:35.000
<v Speaker 1>Then it's so much more of a team game too,

0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:38.279
<v Speaker 1>like you have to be there for your teammate, you

0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:41.960
<v Speaker 1>can't let him get down, because it's a much more

0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:45.840
<v Speaker 1>challenging format to play because there's more pressure on you.

0:55:46.120 --> 0:55:48.040
<v Speaker 5>Challenging psychologically everywhere.

0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:50.799
<v Speaker 6>You feel so horrible when you hit your ball into

0:55:50.840 --> 0:55:53.480
<v Speaker 6>oblivion and you got to then turn around and look

0:55:53.520 --> 0:55:56.600
<v Speaker 6>at your partner and say your go here. You feel

0:55:56.640 --> 0:55:59.320
<v Speaker 6>so much pressure compared to when you're playing your own ball.

0:56:00.080 --> 0:56:02.440
<v Speaker 6>Also have to consider, you know, when you're hitting a shot,

0:56:02.520 --> 0:56:04.879
<v Speaker 6>that's an approach if you're not going to get it there,

0:56:04.920 --> 0:56:06.200
<v Speaker 6>what does your partner want next?

0:56:06.200 --> 0:56:08.040
<v Speaker 5>Does you want ninety? Does he want a hundred? What

0:56:08.080 --> 0:56:08.600
<v Speaker 5>does he want?

0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:11.600
<v Speaker 6>So there's so many different elements that enter into it,

0:56:12.080 --> 0:56:13.960
<v Speaker 6>and I think it's the greatest.

0:56:13.600 --> 0:56:15.919
<v Speaker 5>Form of golf myself personally that.

0:56:15.880 --> 0:56:19.839
<v Speaker 6>I obviously I'm in an incredibly shrinking minority on that point.

0:56:20.080 --> 0:56:26.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm convinced that the key or alternate shot becomes the

0:56:26.400 --> 0:56:30.480
<v Speaker 1>most fun format to play when your mindset shifts from

0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:33.840
<v Speaker 1>oh shit, I shouldn't have put my partner there, to

0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:36.680
<v Speaker 1>thank God, I don't have to hit that next shot.

0:56:40.560 --> 0:56:42.279
<v Speaker 6>You know that's what you are thinking, but you have

0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:44.320
<v Speaker 6>to pretend that you're not. You have to pretend that

0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:45.160
<v Speaker 6>you're feeling remorse.

0:56:46.400 --> 0:56:49.799
<v Speaker 3>But what's in your own head? You realize I got

0:56:50.560 --> 0:56:53.239
<v Speaker 3>that one yeah, no, it's you.

0:56:53.120 --> 0:56:55.520
<v Speaker 6>Know, it's so much fun to play, and you know,

0:56:55.600 --> 0:56:57.799
<v Speaker 6>people's scores are so much higher. And I think, you know,

0:56:57.840 --> 0:57:00.279
<v Speaker 6>Americans don't like it because they can't score that well

0:57:00.320 --> 0:57:02.719
<v Speaker 6>at it, and plus they only play half the.

0:57:02.680 --> 0:57:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Shots and yeah, and that and that can be a

0:57:06.080 --> 0:57:08.080
<v Speaker 2>problem if you're playing a course where you really want

0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:09.719
<v Speaker 2>to play all the shots or whatever. You want to

0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:13.000
<v Speaker 2>say that you've played the course. But when you let

0:57:13.040 --> 0:57:17.080
<v Speaker 2>go of that two yeah, exactly, Yeah, you're not going

0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:19.160
<v Speaker 2>to do that. But when you when you're able to

0:57:19.240 --> 0:57:21.320
<v Speaker 2>let go of that, it really you know, you're playing

0:57:21.360 --> 0:57:23.800
<v Speaker 2>fewer shots. Also because it so it has less of

0:57:23.800 --> 0:57:27.280
<v Speaker 2>a physical impact, even if the mental component is is

0:57:27.320 --> 0:57:28.280
<v Speaker 2>a bit more complex.

0:57:28.360 --> 0:57:30.160
<v Speaker 5>It was very much quicker as a game too.

0:57:30.560 --> 0:57:32.600
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, oh yeah about for sure.

0:57:32.480 --> 0:57:35.560
<v Speaker 6>Three hours to play an alternate shot match if you're

0:57:35.600 --> 0:57:36.960
<v Speaker 6>moving as slow as an American.

0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:38.680
<v Speaker 3>We did. We did.

0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:44.160
<v Speaker 1>We had a tensome at loss Sonia playing five balls

0:57:44.520 --> 0:57:48.520
<v Speaker 1>but sling shotting so that you're always one hundred yards

0:57:48.520 --> 0:57:49.440
<v Speaker 1>ahead of your partner.

0:57:49.760 --> 0:57:52.000
<v Speaker 3>And we we ended the we ended the round. We

0:57:52.040 --> 0:57:54.880
<v Speaker 3>played just over three hours. It was incredible.

0:57:55.440 --> 0:57:58.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all walkers, so Steve just to just to wrap

0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:03.640
<v Speaker 2>up here. Do you have a pick for the Sunday's match?

0:58:03.920 --> 0:58:05.800
<v Speaker 3>Do you think o rooting interest?

0:58:07.080 --> 0:58:10.360
<v Speaker 6>What I'm rooting for is a close match, you know,

0:58:10.440 --> 0:58:13.760
<v Speaker 6>something that's exciting. You know, I would say that I'm

0:58:13.760 --> 0:58:15.800
<v Speaker 6>not a huge I'm more of a Tiger fan than

0:58:15.800 --> 0:58:18.880
<v Speaker 6>a Phil fan. Phil kind of lost a little bit

0:58:18.960 --> 0:58:21.840
<v Speaker 6>of luster for me when he's running around chasing his

0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:23.600
<v Speaker 6>ball and knocking it backwards in the middle of the

0:58:23.680 --> 0:58:27.320
<v Speaker 6>open while it's moving. Even though he's probably right, I

0:58:27.360 --> 0:58:29.680
<v Speaker 6>don't think it's very good for him to throw Tom

0:58:29.720 --> 0:58:32.880
<v Speaker 6>Watson under the bus publicly after the Ryder Cup. So,

0:58:33.000 --> 0:58:35.400
<v Speaker 6>you know, some of the things Phil's done have made

0:58:35.400 --> 0:58:38.080
<v Speaker 6>me feel not as well as attached to him as

0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:39.280
<v Speaker 6>a lot of people do.

0:58:40.000 --> 0:58:43.000
<v Speaker 2>So, so Tiger is the slight rooting interest.

0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:45.040
<v Speaker 5>Well, obviously Tiger is the is.

0:58:45.320 --> 0:58:47.800
<v Speaker 6>If he's not the greatest player ever, he certainly has

0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:51.040
<v Speaker 6>had the greatest stretch of golf that's ever been played

0:58:51.120 --> 0:58:52.960
<v Speaker 6>that I don't think there can be.

0:58:52.960 --> 0:58:53.800
<v Speaker 5>Much dispute about.

0:58:53.840 --> 0:58:55.200
<v Speaker 6>So, I mean, I have a lot of respect for

0:58:55.240 --> 0:58:57.680
<v Speaker 6>that as a person who's looked back at the history

0:58:57.720 --> 0:58:59.920
<v Speaker 6>of the game, just the accomplishments he's had or just

0:59:00.040 --> 0:59:01.320
<v Speaker 6>bag of the mine

0:59:06.880 --> 0:59:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Sh