1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Quodydas, but Joseph's gotten more. The best gardener that I 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: have ever known, hands down, is my mama. She can 3 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 1: make things grow where other people other people would pale. 4 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: It's amazing what she can do in a garden. And 5 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: her gardens are lovely. Now don't get me wrong, I'm 6 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: not saying, you know, when you go into her backyard 7 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: it looks like Versailles or anything, right, But it's amazing 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: what she can do just with a clipping. For instance, 9 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: I gave her, I don't know, I guess as a gift. 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: I gave her this like specialized fern many years ago, 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: and just out of the clippings that she saved from 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: this thing, she has got baskets to this day that 13 00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: she gives away of these things. And you could say 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: that about a lot of her let's just say Flora. 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: But today we're going to talk about another beautiful garden, 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: a garden that was tended to with loving care by 17 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: a lady who spent it would seem most of her 18 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: time in it. And of course it's in Florida, so 19 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: kind of year round. Her name was Karen. Karen spent 20 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: a lot of time tending to her garden. But what 21 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: people didn't realize is that Karen would wind up buried 22 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: in it as well. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 23 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: is body bags, David. I don't know that I've ever 24 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 1: asked you this question. Do you have a green thumb? 25 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 2: Oh? You know, Joe asking me a question like that, 26 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: you gotta know better. I'm not the gardener, I'm the 27 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 2: goather tips the. 28 00:02:01,760 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: Gardener today with this case, this lady, she seems as 29 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: though that she spent the majority of her tom outside 30 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: just working in the yard. And you know, back to 31 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: my mother, it's very therapeutic for people. You can get 32 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: lost out there. 33 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 2: And that's what Karen Pieas did. She worked in the yard, 34 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: not just the flowers, but the yard, I mean the grass, 35 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: the you know, the edging, every aspect of the guard 36 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: of her yard was important to her. And living in Florida, 37 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: she spent a lot of time working in the yard. 38 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 2: But let me give you a little background on Karen Joe. 39 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 2: Because Karen Pieas was known by neighbors as very friendly, loving, 40 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 2: just a wonderful nice person. They knew her as the 41 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 2: person working in the yard. When they didn't see her 42 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: in the yard for a couple of days and couldn't 43 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: get her on the phone. They knew something was wrong, 44 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: so they called their friends called used to do a 45 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: welfare check. Hey man, just go check on our friend. 46 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: Now when police shop up, I'm gonna give you the 47 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 2: backstory in just a minute, okay, because there's so much 48 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: There is so much more to this. The friends didn't 49 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 2: just make one phone call, okay, but to cut to 50 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 2: the nitty gritty, police show up to do a welfare check. 51 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 2: Karen is not in the house. They can't find her 52 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 2: and her sister, Deborah Patton, who lives with Karen. They 53 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 2: live in this house together in Florida, and she's giving 54 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: answers Joe to the questions police are asking and they're 55 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 2: not right. They're not right, and the police know she's lying. 56 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: They know that the person talking into them is lying 57 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 2: to them, and so they started looking around and one 58 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 2: thing leads to another, and they notice that there's like 59 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: a hole that's been dug in the backyard. You know 60 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: how when you dig a hole and you put the 61 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 2: dirt back in, it never levels out, you know. So 62 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: while one of the deputy he's just standing there, you know, watching, 63 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: they went ahead and got a warrant to do a 64 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 2: search and to make sure nothing else could go on. 65 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: And sure enough, Karen Paie is was found buried in 66 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: the backyard in about a two foot hole, and her 67 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 2: sister was arrested. Karen Patten was arrested in charge. Now, 68 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: by the way, I was looking at their ages, Joe 69 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: seventy two years old, sixty seven at the time. They're 70 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 2: not twins. The girls, the sisters were born thirteen months apart, 71 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: so kind of keep that in mind. These are sisters 72 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 2: who really are close in age, were raised very close 73 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 2: in age, but their adult lives total opposites. Joe and 74 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,880 Speaker 2: I mean total opposites. So if you can imagine where 75 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: Karen Paie has stayed near the family home, she cared 76 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: for her adult parents as they got older. Karen maintained 77 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 2: a career on her own. She saved money. She was 78 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: known as a penny pincher. Okay, she was very concerned 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: about financial stability, and she took care of her parents 80 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: as they slipped into Alzheimer's dementia into Alzheimer's, and she 81 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: was there caring for their parents. 82 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: Well. 83 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 2: Deborah Patten meanwhile had married and was gone. She was 84 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: living in Louisiana with her husband for twenty eight years. 85 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 2: Never came back to help care for the elder adult parents. 86 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 2: That was Karen's job. But once the parents died, Deborah 87 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 2: shows up and moves in with Karen. Now I mentioned 88 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 2: Karen Pius has taken care of this house. She took 89 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: care of the parents. Everything is owned by her. She 90 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: owns this. Deborah shows up having done nothing and moves in. 91 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: Neighbors are like, you know, Deborah's not really nice to you. 92 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: They heard arguments, They knew Deborah just pushed Karen every 93 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: which way. Joe, to give you an example, I mentioned 94 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: Karen stays home to take care of mom and dad 95 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 2: as they go through. I don't know how many of 96 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 2: y'all understand how bad Alzheimer's is. It's really really rough. 97 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: On my hat's off to you if you've heard for 98 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 2: an adult, it's just rough. But Karen stayed, took care 99 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: of both mom and dad. Deborah didn't have any to 100 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: do with them. She shows up after they're gone and 101 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: she's left her husband of twenty eight years. Deborah has 102 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: and moves in with Karen. They don't get along. Now, 103 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,040 Speaker 2: when I say they don't get along, Joe. I'm thinking, 104 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 2: if Karen has been living in this community her whole 105 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 2: adult life and taking care of the house and the 106 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: family and all that, and then somebody else moved, that 107 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 2: new person coming into the mix is the one causing 108 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 2: the problems, not the person that's been there the whole time. 109 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: So when I say they didn't get along on something 110 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 2: of no, Deborah did not get along with Karen. She 111 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 2: wanted what Karen had. Deborah had nothing, no money, no nothing. 112 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 2: She never kept a job for very long, did not 113 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: proceed very long. She couldn't, you know. So here's Karen, 114 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,559 Speaker 2: who has taken care of everything, had her own career 115 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 2: and took care of mom and dad. Now she owns 116 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: her own house, she proud of her yard, and here 117 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 2: comes her sister with nothing. Debrah has nothing, but Karen 118 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: puts her up. 119 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: Well, you know this dynamic started. Uh, you know, it's 120 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: amazing as a death investigator when I always tell I 121 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: always tell students, I've given interviews where they say, well, 122 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: what's the most interesting interesting thing about being a death 123 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: investigator aside from being around the dead. And this is 124 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: going to be really this is going to sound really, 125 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: really creepy, but I'm going to go ahead and go ahead. 126 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: And say it. 127 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: What's really cool about it is that you literally get 128 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: to peek in people's closets, and if you want a 129 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: good story, suddenly, because of the intimate access that you 130 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: have behind the scenes kind of seeing the way things 131 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: develop in that world, you have this narrative that's laid out, 132 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: you know, and suddenly, and many times it'll burst on 133 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: the scene. You'll have this kind of moment of clarity 134 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: when you're working a case and you begin to understand 135 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: interpersonal dynamics. And let me tell you something, when you're 136 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: dealing with uh, with sick parents, when you're dealing with 137 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: the death of a parent, there is nothing like the 138 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: stimulus that that is interjected into the relationship between siblings, 139 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: because if there is something ugly there, it's going to 140 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: pop up. But you know, I submit to you that 141 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: this ugliness has it far. It extends way way back 142 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 1: into the past. It wasn't just the moment she shows 143 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: up on the doorstep here, and there's probably been ongoing 144 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: tension over the years. There's probably been resentment, you know, 145 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: from the perspective of this sister that just you know, 146 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: kind of floats in from Louisiana, incredible jealousy. You know, 147 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: parents always preferred you over me. 148 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 2: All the while. 149 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: You know she's not doing anything to lift her finger 150 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: to help, And you're right, it's a There are people, Dave, 151 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: I don't see how they keep from cracking under the burden. 152 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: And if you've got two parents that are affected by 153 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: any kind of dementia, it is exhausting. I don't see 154 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: how people do it. And you're having to bear that 155 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: burden day in and day out, shifting from one to 156 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: the other to try to keep control over it, try 157 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: to manage it. Just the finances alone. I can see 158 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: why she would retreat to a garden day. I really can. 159 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: For those few precious moments she might be able to 160 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: go out there and retrieve some bit of sanity, some 161 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: bit of solemnity, some bit of peace, maybe hoping that 162 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: she would walk back into that house where her parents 163 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: had been, in the state that they were in, and 164 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 1: something magical would have happened. But I got to tell you, 165 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: in the case of Karen, after her sister shows up, 166 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:46,959 Speaker 1: it was anything but magical. Because when the sister showed up, 167 00:10:48,480 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: Hell followed with her. It amazes me, Brother, Dave, that 168 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: we've had this conversation before about deposited remains. The dynamic 169 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,960 Speaker 1: that interests me the most from a forensic well, it's 170 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: behavioral and it's also forensics as well as kind of 171 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: this interesting blend because I could I could sit there 172 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: and look at a depressed area in the ground, do 173 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,840 Speaker 1: do a retrieval of remains and excavation if you will, 174 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: of remains. But I always always think, why do people 175 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: why do people take not just bodies but evidence and 176 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: hang on to them in there in their environment. And 177 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: that's that's always been a very fascinating dynamic. I think 178 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,080 Speaker 1: it has something to do I've always thought this. I 179 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: think it has something to do with potential perpetrator wanting 180 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: to have constant control and watchcare over what they've done. 181 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: You know, isn't it interesting, Dave? How many cases that 182 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: you and I have covered over the years now where 183 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 1: you will have a perpetrator that will take a human remain, 184 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: for instance, and just discarded like it's rubbish, you know, 185 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: out in some horrible area. But yet we have these 186 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 1: others that kind of latch on to these and literally 187 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: hang on to them and continue to exist, perhaps in 188 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 1: the same environment where just out your front door or 189 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: your kitchen window. You pull the curtains aside, and there's 190 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: active decomposition going on in your backyard. Think about that 191 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: just for a second. I mean, that's a real I think. 192 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: I think that there could be an academic study actually 193 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 1: that could be applied to this. You begin to look 194 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: at depositive remains and kind of the relationship between the 195 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: perpetrators and remains, and to see kind of how they 196 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: you know, how how did all this come together? What 197 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: was your rationale for hanging on us. 198 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: I have a theory, well, pretty much the same thing 199 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 2: of what you were saying about control. I think that 200 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: when you have somebody that commits a murder and they 201 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 2: just discard the body to get away from it because 202 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 2: they have no connection to it, it is just an it. 203 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: They don't have a connection to that person. They might 204 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: even know the name, you know, They just they did 205 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 2: their thing, they killed them whatever, and now I'm getting 206 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: rid of the body. But when it comes to this 207 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: type of a situation where a sister has killed a 208 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: sister and put her remains in the backyard in a 209 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: hole two foot hole, and she's right there, I think 210 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,839 Speaker 2: it's because that way her body is there in the backyard. 211 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: And in this case, I think Debra had control over, 212 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 2: you know, anybody that wants to see. She knows nobody's 213 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: discovered the body. Yet if no wo he discovers the body, 214 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 2: I'm free and clear, you know, and that way, and 215 00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,479 Speaker 2: I think that's the case with others who keep somebody 216 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 2: close to them where they can watch over the remains, 217 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: because it's like, if somebody goes near it, I can 218 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: go out there and I can get them looking someplace else. 219 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: I control the remains. I can keep somebody from finding it. 220 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: But if I don't see them, if I bury it 221 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: out in the middle of nowhere, I don't know, one 222 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: hundred might fall over it or something. But Joe, my 223 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: question for you about this. Okay, you get the cops 224 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: in the backyard, they get a warrant, they see that 225 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: there has been there's disturbed ground in the backyard. Not unique, 226 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: and that is kind of unique. When you have two 227 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: elderly women at the time, both they're sixty seven years old, 228 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: You're not going to see them out there digging a 229 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 2: hole for no reason. So there had to be a 230 00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: reason for it, and they want to look, how do 231 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 2: law enforcement because they're going to be the first ones 232 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: to look at something like this. How did they go 233 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: about digging what they believe? You know, hey, we got 234 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: to find out what's in this area before we call 235 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 2: because it could be nothing, you know, But do you 236 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 2: have to like dig up and see if there's something 237 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: in there? 238 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 1: What? 239 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 2: How does that start? Do I have as a cop 240 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: with a gun and a badge writing tickets? One minute? 241 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: Am I in the backyard digging this with a tan traw? 242 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: Okay, excellent question, and kind of let me break it 243 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: down to you this way. I know people use use 244 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: motorized augers now too to put in post dig post 245 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: holes with. Okay, but let's go back in time and 246 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: think about a and lord knows I've had to use 247 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: these over the years. I used to work on a 248 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: fencing crew when I was in college, one of the 249 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: toughest jobs I ever had. Think about an old uh 250 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: uh posthold digger. You know it's got the two you 251 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 1: know it's got the the the two spoons. They look 252 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: like gigantic spoon driving it into the round, into the ground. 253 00:15:55,880 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: You're pinching it bringing it out. So if you're if 254 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: you're trying to analyze this from a forensic standpoint, and 255 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: you're looking at a defect in the ground, you look at, 256 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: say the space, and think about kind of the cylindrical 257 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: hole that you would generate with a posthole digger or 258 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: even an augur Anythink, now, if I'm going to search 259 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: that area and I'm looking for somebody that is missing, 260 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: what's the potential that they could be in a hole 261 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 1: with a caliber the size of a coffee can probably 262 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: probably not much. Now, could you discard evidence in there? 263 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? 264 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you could put a weapon in there, or you 265 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: could just be planting trees for all I know. But 266 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: if I see some kind of irregularity, and this is 267 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: one of the things that in what's referred to as 268 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: forensic tafonomy, which is a study of the ground, you 269 00:16:55,680 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: look at the ground from the perspective of the potential 270 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: of what you could harvest out of it from an 271 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: evidentary standpoint, and also are the dimensions of this thing? 272 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: Are they very uniformed? Are they irregular? Because when you 273 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: start to look at uniformity. Okay, and let's say you 274 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: want to you want to dig a hole. I keep 275 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 1: using hole. Everybody thinks that it's you know, you're talking 276 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: about a circle. But let's just say you're pulling the 277 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: earth out of it. Do you have definitive margins here 278 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: where you can say, okay, yeah, ge way, is that 279 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: looks like a rectangle? It looks like a square, but 280 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,640 Speaker 1: you've kind of got this randomized thing. And if you're 281 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 1: using kind of like a spade spade shaped shovel, this 282 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 1: comes to a point at the bottom. You've got square 283 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: bottom shovels, you've got spade shaped shovels, and it's got 284 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: these kind of curved edges around. Not a lot of 285 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: care has been given to that. This is just one 286 00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 1: thing that we look for. What is the potential that, 287 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: first off, this was dug for some other purpose, or 288 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 1: does it have the potential the dimensions here for discarding 289 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 1: human remains or covering up human remains. One of the 290 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: things that's fascinating to me about this. 291 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 2: Is that. 292 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: When you think about the size and the only dimension 293 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: that they are giving us, Dave is two feet Well, 294 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: it's two feet two feet wide, two feet long. Is 295 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: it two feet deep? I'm going with two feet deep. Okay, 296 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: so we don't really know what the outer perimeter is. 297 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: Two feet deep is insufficient to the task I'll put 298 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 1: it to you that way, and let me flip this 299 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: around and let me throw this out to you. Okay, 300 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: that hole in and of itself is accusatory. It's accusatory 301 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: to let's just say it's the sister and she's looking 302 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: out the window at it. It's accused tory in the 303 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: sense that Karen the gardener had a real sense of 304 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: the yard of the esthetic that whole screams at a 305 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: potential perpetrator and says, even in digging a hole, you're insufficient. 306 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,719 Speaker 1: And everything you've done in life, and this is a 307 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: great example of it. You're talking about a two foot 308 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: hole to get rid of your sister's body. Here is 309 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 1: such a loser because the sister would not have done this. 310 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: You know what she would have done. She probably would 311 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:40,920 Speaker 1: have got steaks, and I mean that you can drive 312 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: in the ground. She would have gotten kite string, she 313 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: would have tied it off, she would have carefully measured 314 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: it because of the aesthetic of it, because she saw beauty. 315 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: But you know, you have to plan beauty. And what 316 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: it comes down to with this is this is pure horror. 317 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: I think, Dave that once they begin to look at this, 318 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: and I've actually had this happen. People think that you 319 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:11,959 Speaker 1: can take dirt and shovel it over human remains and 320 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,959 Speaker 1: you're not gonna smell anything. That is not the case. 321 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: That's one of the many reasons. There are other there 322 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: are other reasons. But you know, in funerary practices in 323 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: America and worldwide, you go deep. Okay, so and six 324 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: feet is kind of you know, it's kind of the 325 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 1: standard measurement, six feet deep, and then you cover it, right, 326 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 1: you have to cover it and you're not going to 327 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 1: have some kind of smell emanated. And I know people 328 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,640 Speaker 1: are saying, well, Morgan, what about in balm bodies. We're 329 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: not talking about in BALMD bodies. We're just talking about 330 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: because not everybody's inbalm. Embalming is one of the things 331 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: that is it's very unique to Western culture. There's a 332 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 1: whole other world out there. There are people that bury 333 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 1: non embalmed bodies. 334 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 2: You know, Griffith wasn't involved. 335 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there you go. 336 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: I mean seven thirty that morning, ten thirty that morning 337 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: they were burying him. 338 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, my wife and I 339 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: are talking about, you know, into the ground. We're talking 340 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: about natural burial here with no preservation. You know what, 341 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: you know, what's kind of what's the point? 342 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 2: You know what you would I always thought you would 343 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 2: like dedicate your body to your skills and let them. 344 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: Know that's not going to happen. 345 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: Okay, let me go back to this real quick, Joe. 346 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: You've got the two cops and they're looking for Karen. 347 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: They talked to her sister, and they know sister Deborah 348 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: is lying to them that she doesn't know where her 349 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: sister is. Her sister's car is in the garage, her 350 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,479 Speaker 2: sister's phone, her sister's while it's all still here, Karen's 351 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 2: stuff is here, and the woman who lives with her, 352 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: her sister says, I don't know where she is, and 353 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 2: the cops know she's lying. They see this disturbed ground 354 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: in the backyard. They decide they, being the police, they 355 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 2: want to look at it. They get a warrant. Now 356 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: do the police do the officers do this on their own? 357 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 2: Do they go out there and just you know, with 358 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 2: their hands, start, you know, scrubbing away. Let's see what 359 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: we got here, because you're only going to be we 360 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: know postfact, we know after the fact that it's only 361 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 2: two feet deep. That's what we're told, But Karen's body 362 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: was placed in trash bags, in a black trash bag 363 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 2: with bungee cords wrapped around it and duct tape. So 364 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 2: if her body is placed in there, are the police 365 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 2: going to be able to smell, you know, the body 366 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 2: and realize we got something here we need to explore. 367 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: Are they going to get on their hands and knees 368 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: and start pulling dirt? No? 369 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 1: Okay, no, I if if they were, if I were 370 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: whispering in their ear as an advisor, I'd say freeze. Okay, 371 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: because okay, so this is kind of interesting. I gotta, 372 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,719 Speaker 1: I gotta, I gotta tell you this, this is kind 373 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: of cool. Well, I'm so glad you brought this up. 374 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: Does smell equal probable cause? Kind of fascinating, right, I 375 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: mean when you think, yeah, because you know, we think 376 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: many times if we see blood coming Okay, let's just 377 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: say we've got a closed door in a closet and 378 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: we see blood coming out from beneath in a house, 379 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: I would think that if I'm a police officer and 380 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: I'm clearing the house and I see blood what appears 381 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: to be blood, right, I can't fall into that trap. Forensically, 382 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: you're going to nail me. So if I if I 383 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,240 Speaker 1: look down and I see what appears to be blood 384 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: coming from beneath a door, first off, I'm going to 385 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: have my weapon out, and secondly, I'm going to carefully 386 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: open the door and I see a body in there, 387 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: after I check them to see if they have any vitals. 388 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: I'm not pulling the body out, Okay, I'm backing out 389 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: because that's a matter of public safety with a body 390 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: or let's just say, we don't know it's a body yet. 391 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: All we all we have is smell. We have a dimension. 392 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: Remember we got to go back to the dimensional aspect 393 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: of this. Could it contain a body? Yeah, potentially if 394 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: they smell it, which I submit to you that you 395 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,200 Speaker 1: could through trashbacks. Just think about this. How many times 396 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: have you ever walked to your garbage can outside, okay, 397 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: and you've got your kitchen garbage bagged up, and you 398 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: lift the lid on that puppy and all of a sudden, 399 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: it's like, what was it the Thriller song? The funk 400 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: of forty thousand years rushes out, you know, and distraction 401 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: in the face. Yeah, dude, yeah, it's foul. But here's 402 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: here's the slippery slope because we know lawyers are watching 403 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: everything we do. Right, if I don't secure a warrant 404 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 1: before I start moving earth on this thing, anything that 405 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: I uncover relative to this has the potential of being 406 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: thrown out out so and it has gotten to the 407 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: point now in the world that we exist in that 408 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: if you do not secure a warrant before you get 409 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 1: your trial out, you get your brushes out, You've literally 410 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: got you know. Now, they were kind of like people 411 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: that you've seen guys that do ceramic tiles, that are 412 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: wearing those knee pads. You know, you've got all your 413 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: equipment out Before you do that, you better have a 414 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: magistrate or judge sign off on this thing. Because here's 415 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: the thing, just because it smells bad doesn't necessarily mean 416 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: that there is something there. But what they found when 417 00:25:41,560 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: they finally excavated the spot was quite shocking. Thing about 418 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: criminals is they don't think things through and when it 419 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: comes to buried remains, the last thing on their mind 420 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: is vegetation. And it has been It's been one of 421 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: those things that has caught people in the past. When 422 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about digging a hole in the yard, Dave, 423 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: I'm you know, if I'm just going out in my 424 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: backyard to dig a hole, I know that I have 425 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: to refill the hole or pack the dirt around a 426 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 1: tree I'm planning, or whatever it is I'm doing. From 427 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 1: an excavation standpoint, crooks don't do that. Did you know that. 428 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: Let's say they will dig a hole and bury, say 429 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: like a body in an area, and they'll put the 430 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 1: same dirt back in. They don't take time to pull 431 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: the grass out, shake the grass off grass because you 432 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: can actually look down and I've seen this happen and 433 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: you've got roots staring back up at your face. And 434 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: as you well know, we were talking about things that 435 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: the cops would have seen out there. I think that 436 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,360 Speaker 1: that's something that's significant. If you've got roots, if you're 437 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: looking at roots, you should not be looking at roots. Okay, 438 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: you've got Saint Augustine grass. We're talking about Florida. Saint 439 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 1: Augustine grass is everywhere, a thick lush, you know, really green, 440 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: loves that tropical environment. Those roots are staring you in 441 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: the face. You know, when did grass start growing inverted? 442 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:33,959 Speaker 2: You know? 443 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: So you're thinking, you're thinking, okay, this is just not 444 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: the case. So you have to be very careful because 445 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: it's not just if somebody is doing this in a frenzy. 446 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: You might see something on the surface that should not 447 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: be there like it can be. You know, I had 448 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,959 Speaker 1: a couple of guys that we caught in New Orleans 449 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 1: that killed a photographer out of the French court. They 450 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: had escaped from Florida State pen. Actually everybody winds up 451 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: in the French French Quarter or Vegas, right, And so 452 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 1: they took this guy out that was a cameraman and 453 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: beat him to death with his camera tripod and buried 454 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: him out in the marsh. And I caught this case. 455 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: And you know, we caught that guy. We caught those 456 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: guys because they flicked a cigarette butt down into the hole. 457 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,160 Speaker 1: Wow yeah yeah, And it had DNA deposition on it. 458 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 1: So you know, you have to look for those tiny 459 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: little things like that, and you really as an investigator, 460 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: you have to adjust your lens because it's really easy 461 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: to kind of take a bulldozer approach here when you 462 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: should be doing surgery to observe and to document an area. 463 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: You begin to look at this and you think, Okay, 464 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,360 Speaker 1: what is it that I need to see? And you 465 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: have to be patient. You have to be so patient 466 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: out here because it's so tempting, and just. 467 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: Think about it. 468 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: It's like a god. This is a bad example, but 469 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and say it. It's like a kid 470 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: on Christmas morning that's unwrapping a present. That same part 471 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: of your brain is stimulated out and seen. I know 472 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: that sounds grotesque, but it really is. You're thinking, Okay, 473 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: I know in my heart of hearts that there's probably 474 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: a body down here. Okay, you have to resist the urge. 475 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: You have to resist the urge. This is why I 476 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: always recommend that you have a forensic anthropologist on site 477 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: with you, because they can kind of throw the brakes 478 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: on there. You leave them to be in charge. This 479 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: is what they do because if you don't, well, if 480 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: you don't, I mean, like me, I'm going to go in, 481 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, with no breaks on. I will, but not 482 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: to the degree of friends of anthropologists, because they start 483 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: off in like one inch squares, brushing things away and 484 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: it can get really tedious. But there's a lot of 485 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: importance here because they don't want to miss a single thing. Dave, 486 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: And in this case, I think that I think that that. 487 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 2: That was it was. 488 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: I'll put it through this way. They aired on the 489 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: cautious side here as opposed to just going in like 490 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: a bull in a china shop. 491 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: And you know, interesting, as I was digging into this, 492 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 2: digging digging into this story and found out, you know, 493 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: the neighbors called for the because they weren't getting responses 494 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 2: on the phone, they weren't getting answers from Devon Patten, 495 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: and they called police to do the welfare check, and 496 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 2: that's what led to the finding of the disturbed ground 497 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 2: in the backyard that leads to Karen being found in 498 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 2: these garbage bags, black garbage bags with the bungee cords 499 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: and duct tape. But I just give you an idea. 500 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: When all of this is going on, you know, as 501 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: they're working the investigation, neighbors are saying, hey, man, they 502 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 2: didn't get along. Karen had been here for years. We've 503 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,239 Speaker 2: known her for a long time, and she told us 504 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 2: if she ever went missing or that her sister probably 505 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 2: did it, because her sister said had told her to 506 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 2: her face. She's like, Karen is telling friends, Deborah said 507 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: she's gonna kill me. Deborah's got a gun, Deborah is 508 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 2: gonna And so as police are getting this information, and 509 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: they're looking at the lives of the sisters. Karen, consistent 510 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: with mom and dad their whole lives, you know, took 511 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 2: care of them, and she owns this house. Deborah in 512 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: a twenty eight year marriage, couldn't keep a job and 513 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: walks away from her husband in New Orleans or Louisiana, 514 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 2: pardon me, Louisiana, and comes to Florida to crash in 515 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 2: her sister's house, you know, something, Joe, to make her 516 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 2: sister happy. And Karen owned this home outright, it was 517 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: her home. She built Deborah a luxury chef's kitchen inside 518 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: that home, just a beautiful, a gourmet kitchen. This is 519 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 2: what Karen did for her sister, to make her sister happy. 520 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: And Karen, who owns the home, she actually has a 521 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 2: small little kitchen that type thing set up for herself 522 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 2: in the garage. That's what Karen did, bending over backwards 523 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 2: to make Deborah happy. And eventually, you know, Karen ends 524 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,800 Speaker 2: up in the hole in the backyard. But as they 525 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: as they being the investigators, Joe, all right, we have 526 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: found Karen's body in the backyard. What do we do 527 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 2: now we see that we have a body in the 528 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 2: garbage bags, yep. And the bungee cords are wrapped around 529 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: her body and then the bags are secure with a 530 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: duct tape. So tell me about this. How are you 531 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 2: going to unroll all? Are you going to take this 532 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: whole thing out of the ground with dirt back to 533 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: the lab? 534 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, yes, yes, and yes. I can't guarantee that 535 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: they did that. This is one of the things that 536 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: is really hard to get across to crom scene investigators. 537 00:32:54,200 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: You do not, under any circumstances want to practice bag open. 538 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: And here's the thing. You remember JJ and Tylely right? 539 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 2: Ohious? Yet yeah, I had to bring that up right. 540 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: So with JJ, one of the problems I had with 541 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: that case is that you know, you remember he was 542 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: cocooned in bags and he was buried adjacent to that 543 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: empty pond. Yes, And I remember the investigators it seems 544 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: like it was during the trial and it was like 545 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 1: one of these cringe moments for me. They said, we 546 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 1: opened the bag and could see his head or see 547 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: his hair, And I'm thinking, why the hell you open 548 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: in the bag? 549 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 2: Yeah? Why? 550 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: I mean, you know that the subject that's inside the 551 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 1: bag is to cease. Now you know that something horrible 552 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: has happened. Where are you going to risk everything by 553 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: not taking the remains to a controlled environment. Okay, you 554 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: have to be able to restrain yourself to the point, 555 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: because anything you do out there, it's like I was 556 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 1: just saying a second about the you know, I know 557 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily the same thing, but with a cigarette butt, Okay, 558 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: if you just kind of blast through this thing, there's 559 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: no confirmatory thing here going on. You know that you've 560 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: got somebody that's deceased for my money, Okay. And how 561 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: I would instruct people is, ye know, we can kind 562 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: of palpate the outside of this bag very very carefully. 563 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: It feels like human form. I think we're going to 564 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: go to the medical examiner's office and which they have there. 565 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: The state of Florida is broken down into medical examiner districts, 566 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: and they're pretty dark on good at what they do. 567 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: They're used to this sort of thing. You roll in 568 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: there with that bag and you don't try to listen. 569 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: You try to do everything you can to not brush 570 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: away dirt. Period end of paragraph. I don't care how 571 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: dirty it is. I don't care if they're mag it's 572 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: crawling all over the place. You take everything to the lab, 573 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,920 Speaker 1: specifically the Medical Examiner's office, and you put it in 574 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 1: that controlled environment because just by okay, just by splitting 575 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,920 Speaker 1: the bag open, let's say that there were points of 576 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: contact there relative to layton prints. You say, Morgan, it's 577 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,279 Speaker 1: been buried in the earth. It rains in Florida. I 578 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:29,080 Speaker 1: don't care, because you don't know what layton prints might 579 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: might have been preserved on the outside. You don't know 580 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,319 Speaker 1: what's under under the surface. I mean, how many Let 581 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: me ask you this, my friends, how many times have 582 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 1: you taken a garbage bag and I know you're thinking, 583 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pop it like this, I'm gonna get it open. Okay, 584 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: guess what you do that you don't think about? You 585 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: readjust your hands many times and put them on the 586 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,920 Speaker 1: inside of the bag. Well, that's a point of contact. 587 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: And guess what else? If you like that one, I 588 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: got another one for you. You leave behind latent, Prince, 589 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: and particularly in this day and age, you leave behind 590 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: DNA deposition as well, just by touching the inside. So 591 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 1: if you're going to cowboy it up as an investigator 592 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: and go in there and you begin to at the 593 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: scene and you begin to manipulate the bag in some way. 594 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: You know, you pull out your buck knife that you 595 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: got on the side, or your spider coat knife out 596 00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: of your pocket. You flick it open dramatically and you 597 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 1: begin to slice open the bag like you're in some 598 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:37,280 Speaker 1: episode of some ridiculous television show. Well, it's not controlled. 599 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: You have got to remain maintain control. And that's why 600 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,560 Speaker 1: it's you cannot go into this haphazardly. You don't want 601 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: to cut through the tape. You don't want to dislodge 602 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 1: any of the bungee cords. And sometimes, you know, bungee 603 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 1: cords failed, they become unattached. Lord knows, I've had I've 604 00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: had them pop me in the face when I'm trying 605 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: to tie things down my truck. No pain like it 606 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 1: in the world. 607 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: My brother lost an eye to a buncht ye. 608 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: Lord. 609 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:06,959 Speaker 2: Yeah. 610 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're so dangerous man, and and and they're un 611 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: there's they're not predictable. Don't touch them. Don't touch them 612 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: in any way again until you get back to the 613 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: controlled area. Now, I am sure that the authorities down 614 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: in Florida they do enough of these. They would have 615 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: They're not in some rural location. 616 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 2: It's just outside of Tampa. Bay. 617 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're there. I have I would bet money on 618 00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: these people that they took due care with this, and 619 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: we're trying to be very, very careful because there's all 620 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: kinds of things you can get off of plastic bags. 621 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 1: And at this point, all you know, after you've served 622 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,200 Speaker 1: a warrant on this property, all you know is that 623 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: you've got a body that's wrapped in a bag. You 624 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: haven't hooked anybody up on charges yet, so you have 625 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 1: to collect. You're trying to build a case and build 626 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: it out. But daved, I got tell you when they 627 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: finally got those bags off of this poor woman's body, who, 628 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: by the way, I haven't said this. You know she 629 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: was a retired engineer for Verizon. 630 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: I know that. 631 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: And she's nobody's fool. 632 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: No that is think. She was such a nice She's nice, brilliant, 633 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 2: took care of herself, took care of her parents, took 634 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: care of her money, and then here comes her thirteen 635 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 2: month old You know the difference in age thirteen months Yeah, yeah, 636 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,120 Speaker 2: and Deborah was thirteen months older than Karen. Karen was 637 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 2: professional and was just wonderful and everybody loved her and 638 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 2: then never do well, Deborah shows up and it all 639 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 2: goes to hell in a handbasket. 640 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: You're right, Dave, it does. It goes downhill really quickly. 641 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,200 Speaker 1: When this I don't know, I don't know how to 642 00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,719 Speaker 1: put it. This human leech shows up, because that's kind 643 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: of the way it feels at this point in tom. 644 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 1: You know when you can tell that. I think anytime 645 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:06,439 Speaker 1: you can learn a lot about a person that perpetrates 646 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: a homicide by the way they treat remains. This seems 647 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: to be rather frenzied. I would think maybe spontaneous. It 648 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,760 Speaker 1: happened in a flash. And you know when she when 649 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: she was killed, Karen still had a necklace around her 650 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: neck with the name Karen on it. So in the 651 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: course of this crime and the cocooning of her body, 652 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,879 Speaker 1: there was no effort to try to take eyes off 653 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: of who this was. Because granted, listen, I know that 654 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,480 Speaker 1: many people think that when you see a necklace that 655 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 1: says Karen on it, that's a positive idea. I don't 656 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: trust things like that. I have to have it scientifically 657 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: verified because too many times I've personally been burned. There 658 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: are other people that have been burned, and you have 659 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: to take doe care with all of this that's very important. 660 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,400 Speaker 1: And in this particular case, when they finally got Karen's 661 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:23,160 Speaker 1: body out of this, these bags got the tape detached. 662 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:29,359 Speaker 1: She sustained a single gsw to the chest. And you know, 663 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: just think about this woman's lovely woman that has and 664 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: she shot like an animal yep, and then her remains 665 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: are treated like she's an animal and buried literally adjacent 666 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,480 Speaker 1: to this place that she loves. I guess that, you know, 667 00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: there's nothing ironic about it, but you have to look 668 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:48,880 Speaker 1: at it and you think, you know, all of this 669 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: love and care that she's put into this home, she's created, 670 00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: the care that she gave to her parents, the beautiful 671 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: garden that she had, she worked in daily. She worked 672 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,960 Speaker 1: toward retirement. Anybody that gets to retirement, God bless everybody 673 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: out there. You know what a labor this is. And 674 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,840 Speaker 1: to have it all just taken from her in a 675 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: flash because somebody is jealous of her, somebody has got 676 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,480 Speaker 1: issues with her that cannot live their own life on 677 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: their own. 678 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 2: Dave, I'm you know you you actually laid it all 679 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,799 Speaker 2: out perfectly. Joe and I did look at something on 680 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 2: this because they never found they being investigators, never found 681 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 2: the murder weapon. They were never able to determine, you know, 682 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:41,799 Speaker 2: what gun was used, what type of gun. But I'm 683 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 2: gonna read you something here. While the specific murder weapon 684 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 2: was not explicitly identified, evidence included DNA from Deborah Patten 685 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 2: on blood covered latex gloves found with the body, and 686 00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 2: surveillance footage showing Deborah Patten the shovel. Now, this surveillance 687 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 2: footage was from a next door neighbor, Joe, we should 688 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 2: all have this type of individual as our next door neighbor. 689 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,640 Speaker 2: I made a note when I sent this because the 690 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 2: surveillance video from the neighbor was a Hillsboro County deputy 691 00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 2: who has this surveillance video showing the victim, Karen, entering 692 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 2: her home on May twenty fourth, twenty twenty one, last 693 00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 2: time she has seen alive. The video also depicts Deborah 694 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 2: Patten throwing several large trash bags into the garbage and 695 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 2: shows Deborah Patten walking with a shovel. After everything was 696 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 2: said and done, Joe, Deborah Patton is charged with murder. 697 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 2: But the reason it took so long and the reason 698 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 2: we're talking about this today, because this just got adjudicated. 699 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 2: It's gone on this long because you cannot you cannot 700 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,520 Speaker 2: try somebody who is incompetent stand trial. And over the years, 701 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 2: Devora Patten was deemed incompetent to stand trial. She remained 702 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 2: in the state mental hospital for treatment for a couple 703 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 2: of years. It wasn't until February last year that a 704 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 2: judge ruled Debora Patent competent to stand trial. And when 705 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 2: she finally went to trial last month, the jury did 706 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,959 Speaker 2: not have to deliberate long. I think it was an hour, 707 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 2: and they judged her guilty of second degree murder of 708 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 2: her own little sister. Little sister who took care of 709 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 2: her when she had nothing, fed her when she had 710 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 2: no food, gave her a place to stay when she 711 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,160 Speaker 2: had nowhere to stay, Joe. And by the way, you 712 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 2: know what police found, Well, they found a note written 713 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: by Deborah Paton describing how she was going to kill 714 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 2: her ex husband in Louisiana, how she was going to 715 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:23,560 Speaker 2: drive there and kill him and then she was going 716 00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,560 Speaker 2: to kill herself. Actually took everybody out. 717 00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, Dave, what was really horrific about this? 718 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,960 Speaker 1: I think during the period of time, first off, she 719 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:43,319 Speaker 1: stated to the court that that she was blameless here. Yeah, 720 00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:48,160 Speaker 1: blame completely blameless. If that's not bad enough. She smiled 721 00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: and laughed during this period of tom in court saying 722 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 1: that she's not blameless, and she offered up some kind 723 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: of half hearted prayer that was directed toward the judge, 724 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,960 Speaker 1: talked about how the world is populated with evil people, 725 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,839 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. Well, on that count, she's right, 726 00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:10,480 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, at the end of 727 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: the day, Deborah Patten is a glaring example of pure, 728 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: unadulterated evil. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags