1 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld, I wanted to discuss the 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: recent ice raids and the protest in Los Angeles, what 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: they mean and what I think needs to be done 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: to move forward with immigration policy. So I'm really pleased 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: to welcome my guests Joshua Travino. He is the Senior 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: Fellow for the Western Hemisphere Initiative at the America First 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: Policy Institute and a good friend. Joshua, Thank you, and 8 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: welcome back to Newsworld. 9 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: Thank you, Speaker Gingrich, pleased to be here. 10 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: I'm curious in the wake of the recent unrest in California, 11 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: many Americans were surprised to see Mexican flags waved as 12 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: cars burned. Did you think this was merely symbolic or 13 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: was it part of a deeper, coordinated political message, as is. 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: So often the case in human events. The answer is both, 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: but it's more one than the other. A use of 16 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 2: the Mexican flag that is symbolic in certain quarters, although 17 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: I should note that as a Mexican American myself, you 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 2: don't see it much in my native South Texas. It's 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: not the case in California, and it's because you have 20 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: a different and differently politicized population there. The challenge for 21 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,040 Speaker 2: the United States at large comes in the reality that 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 2: the existence of these flags and their deployment in civil 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: unrest is not mere organic expressions of what I would 24 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: describe as legitimate cultural pride. There are specific political messages, 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: There are specific attacks on American sovereignty coming from within 26 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: the United States, and I think most consequentially for US, 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: those attacks upon sovereignty are actively supported by the Mexican 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: regime itself. And we can talk about the rhetoric that 29 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: they've deployed as this unrest has gone on, but it's 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: something that we need to notice and understand. 31 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: What do you think has the protest in Los Angeles 32 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: and the way they spread quickly to places like Seattle, 33 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 1: New York and Chicago. 34 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 2: The left has spent almost a generation now. I don't 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 2: think it really came to the four until the protests 36 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 2: against the Iraq War and the George W. Bush administration 37 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: really alerted the mainstream American left to the reality that 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: they had a mass mobilization potential that could slide into 39 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: violence pretty easily. And so you saw this develop over 40 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: essentially the past twenty years, moving into the Occupy Wall 41 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 2: Street movement and then really taking off in Barack Obama's 42 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 2: second term with the unrested Ferguson and in other places, 43 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: and I think culminating in what was to my mind 44 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: genuinely an insurrection in summer twenty twenty in which the 45 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 2: violent apparatus at the left was brought to bear against 46 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,639 Speaker 2: I wouldn't even say conservative governance, but simple American constitutional 47 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 2: governance at large. It is a movement that has really 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 2: brought back unfortunately, political assassination to American civics has really 49 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: made us in the street violence. And So to your question, 50 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 2: what we're seeing, what we've seen in Los Angeles, what 51 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 2: we saw in other cities is at a fundamental level, 52 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 2: a reactivation of that network of violence, a resort by 53 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: a movement that cannot win through persuasion, cannot win at 54 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: the ballot box, to the fundamental pre political force, which 55 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: is force it self. And that's what we're seeing. In 56 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: the case of LA You've got third party foreign state 57 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: involvement as well. 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: Now what do you mean by that? 59 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: What I mean is that their underlying motives for the 60 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 2: violence in Los Angeles, in particular, talking about seeing the 61 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 2: deployment of Mexican flags and so on, and it's something 62 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: that we have to understand because it's not mere humanitarian impulse. Right, 63 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 2: it's not sorrow for the migrants, and it's not sorrow 64 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 2: for those being deported. What ice Wood President Trump is, 65 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: i think correctly striking at and enacting these deportations, and 66 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: specifically in the precipitating events in Los Angeles where they 67 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: were going after apparently a human trafficking hub, is they're 68 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: striking at a profit model that benefits both the cartels 69 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: and their partners the Mexican regime. That's important to understand. 70 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 2: The business model for the cartel's visa v. Human trafficking, 71 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 2: which characterizes one hundred percent of a legal migration these 72 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: days and has for some time, can really be thought 73 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: of as sort of an evil subscription service. They extort 74 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 2: the trafficked people on their way to the border, but 75 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: once the border is crossed, the expectation and it's enforced, 76 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: is that these individuals will go to jobs in the 77 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 2: United States. Frequently they're already set up, and they will 78 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: continue to fund the cartels and their partners in the 79 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: Mexican state, in particular with remittances that come back. This 80 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,719 Speaker 2: is why, for example, you saw the President of Mexico 81 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 2: essentially threaten protests and demonstrations in the United States if 82 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 2: remittances were taxed. This is a big deal for them. 83 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 2: It's billions of dollars in revenue. It's no wonder that 84 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 2: violence resulted when that model was attacked, But of course, 85 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: for us, the answer is that we should keep attacking it. 86 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: From your perspective, do you think their effort is designed 87 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: to try to make it so difficult for ICE to 88 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: operate that the whole deportation system eventually just collapses. 89 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: Oh, without question, Without question, they want to raise the 90 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: price tag of deportations. They want to raise the price 91 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 2: tag of enforcement actions and make it not worthwhile, because, 92 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 2: of course, the theory of action is that if every 93 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 2: time you conduct a workplace raid, or you conduct a deportation, 94 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: or it's a surprise apprehension that a mob's going to gather, 95 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: then the operational calculus changes, and frankly, it will if 96 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: taken to its logical extreme. It's an environment in which 97 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 2: two things happen. One is that deportations can't occur, but 98 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 2: that's not the real goal. The real goal is that 99 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: it becomes an environment in which law ordered governance can't occur, 100 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 2: and that's the ultimate end state of the other side. 101 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: The Democratic leader in the House made a comment the 102 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: other day that ICE agents should not wear a mask 103 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: because eventually you're going to figure out who you are. 104 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: And I thought, thinking back, for example, to the Italian 105 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: tradition trying to deal with the mafia, in fact, you 106 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: put their wives and their families and their children at 107 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: risk if they become known. And I think people don't 108 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: realize how elaborate and how intense the opposition can become. 109 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 2: I think you're completely right, and I guess two observations 110 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: on that. One is the exactly to your point. This 111 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 2: is something that characterizes law enforcement in places that are 112 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: stricken with organized crime, Italy being one example, Mexico being another. Actually, 113 00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: there's a reason that when you see anti cartel operations, 114 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: really anti cartel operations, the agents the military law enforcement 115 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: are masked, and it's because people do go after families. 116 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: But there's something else that's even more portentous for us 117 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 2: as Americans buried in that, and it's that this Democratic 118 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 2: comment indicates a fracturing of what used to be sort 119 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,679 Speaker 2: of a criminal code. I don't want to ascribe honor 120 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: to thieves. But it is the reality that rewinding back 121 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: to the nineteen forties is a very famous incident in 122 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 2: which there was a member of one of the Five 123 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,920 Speaker 2: Families in New York and the New York City mafia 124 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: wanted to kill Thomas and you probably know about this, 125 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: so he proposed it, and in response, the other mafioso 126 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 2: has killed him because that was a line that wasn't crossed. 127 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: You didn't go after law enforcement, certainly not their families. 128 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: If that's changed in modern day America, then it's a 129 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: very very dark passage for us, and it's one to 130 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: which we should spare no effort to reverse. 131 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: To what extent are we seeing behaviors that have been 132 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: relatively normal in Mexico as the cartels fight to take 133 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: control of the country. To what extent have we seen 134 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: them starting to come across the border and also begin 135 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: to be part of the operating reality we have to 136 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: deal with in the US. 137 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 2: That's a great question. Those of us who followed the 138 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 2: cartels and the breakdown of Mexican civics and the Mexican 139 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 2: state partnership with the cartels over many years have known 140 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: for some time that a lot of the features of 141 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: Mexican cartel violence have been present in the United States 142 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: for a while. I was in Laredo, Texas, my father's 143 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: hometown actually about a year ago, and we talked with 144 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: some security personnel, and there's kidnap houses in Laredo where 145 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: people or kidnapp they're tied up. The only thing that 146 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: doesn't happen in the United States is the murder. They're 147 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 2: taken across the river and then killed these victims. But 148 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: you go to a place like Phoenix and they do 149 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: have operational sites where people are killed. The personnel, the methodologies, 150 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: the expertise is all present in the United States. The 151 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: only thing that we have yet to see is mass 152 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 2: attacks on law enforcement. I would say, prior to two 153 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: weeks ago, mass attacks on law enforcement, actual seizure of territory. 154 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: Those would be the two phenomenon in Mexico that we 155 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: haven't seen in the US yet. But again, going back 156 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 2: to la you can argue that both of these are 157 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 2: increasingly in evidence. I think the seal is broken and 158 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: we need to look for more of this. Unfortunately, as 159 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 2: one goes on, because that expertise is not here in 160 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 2: the United States. Just to enjoy the weather, it's here 161 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: for a purpose to what he said. 162 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:51,239 Speaker 1: With us almost inevitably draw us into fighting the cartels 163 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: in Mexico itself. 164 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: That's a great question. It depends on which section of 165 00:08:56,679 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: the executive apparatus you talk to. There is I think 166 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 2: it's fair to say, and most of it's occurring in public, 167 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 2: some of it's behind the scenes. But there's a debate 168 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 2: underway within the Trump administration as to how much to do. 169 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: I'll be circumspect in naming who, but there is a 170 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 2: cohort that genuinely believes that the path forward is as 171 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 2: much cooperation as we can get with the regime, with 172 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: this cartel affiliated regime. I happen to disagree with that, 173 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: but it's a real position, and it's one that is 174 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 2: going to point toward and what they see is the 175 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 2: superseding interest in trade between Mexico and the United States. 176 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: And there's another cohort from public reporting you can characterize 177 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: as based more around the Defense and National Security apparatus 178 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: that really does believe that American hard power needs to 179 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: be brought to bear and that we need to be 180 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 2: willing to do things that the Mexican state itself will 181 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 2: not No surprise. That's where I'm aligned. I think that 182 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 2: happens to be a correct analysis of the nature of 183 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: the Mexican state. But the debate is unfolding, and I'll 184 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,839 Speaker 2: tell you, Speaker Gingrich, that we're going to see who wins. 185 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: The debate is in the conversations on reauthorizing USMCA, which 186 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 2: are opening this fall and need to be completed by 187 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: July first, twenty twenty six. If you see US asking 188 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: for security concessions from the Mexican's real ones, then you'll 189 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 2: know that the security side one. But if you see 190 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 2: it just tracked on the trade and commerce lines, you'll 191 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 2: know that something else has happened. 192 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it's reported that Stephen Miller issued it directed 193 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 1: from the White House, that I should make a minimum 194 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: of three thousand arrests a day. Is that kind of 195 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: mathematically oriented model a sustainable approach to deportation. 196 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 2: It's impossible to evaluate on my end because I don't 197 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 2: know the rationale behind it, and I also don't know 198 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: the timeframe behind what's been reported on the three thousand 199 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 2: a day. How I interpret the number which I can't 200 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: read Stephen Miller's mind, And I think this is probably 201 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: correct given his public record, I interpret the number is 202 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: really sort of along the lines of build the wall, 203 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: which is not going to be a physical wall in 204 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 2: every single spot on the border, but it's demand for 205 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 2: meaningful action, and I think that's right. So if the 206 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: numbers three thousand, if it's five thousand, if it's two thousands, 207 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: what he's asking for is more, and he's asking for 208 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 2: a meaningful dent in the illegal population, which again I'm 209 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: of the school that it's in the tens of millions 210 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 2: and not in the single digit millions, and so the 211 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: need for haste is evident. And I think that accentuates 212 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: if you think I'm not saying Stephen Miller thinks this, 213 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: because he probably doesn't, But if you think that the 214 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: midterms next year will go poorly for the Republicans, when. 215 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: You think about deportation, in your mind, what scale is 216 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: sustainable and necessary. 217 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 2: Part of this is a prudential question as to what 218 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 2: the apparatus at hand is. I don't think there's much 219 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 2: more important in American governance right now than mass deportation. 220 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 2: That's not a position I would have held a decade 221 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 2: ago in full candor on the South Tech and we're 222 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 2: accustomed to cross border movement. But as conservatives, we follow 223 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: prudence in reality, and one of the realities is that 224 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 2: the nature of crossing has changed. It's trafficking, it's cartels, 225 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 2: it's got state backing. So rooting that out is almost 226 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: existentially important at this point. I'll say this too. In 227 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 2: the past six to eight weeks, we have seen not 228 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: one but two incredible examples of strategic blows landed at 229 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: both the Russians and then the Iranians by what all 230 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 2: describe archly is alien populations within. And that's not a 231 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 2: complaint about American diversity. I'm Mexican American. My sons are Chinese, 232 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 2: so we're beneficiaries this catholicity of American identity that we have. 233 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,120 Speaker 2: But we also have a duty to secure ourselves and 234 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: to secure our homeland and our way of life. And 235 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: an illegal population in the tens of millions is by 236 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: its nature a threat, because it takes a sliver of 237 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: one percent of that population to be antagonistic toward us 238 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: to constitute a true strategic threat to the United States. 239 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: Numbers seventeen million. How would you go about finding and 240 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: deporting seventeen million people? 241 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I can give guidelines to it, which I'm 242 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 2: sure has already been thought of by mister Miller and 243 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 2: the folks at DHS. You know that they cluster in 244 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 2: particular sectors. You know that they cluster in particular communities. 245 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: You know that they cluster in particular geographies. This is 246 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 2: where in the United States it gets a bit complicated, because, 247 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: of course we have nothing like a national ID card. 248 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 2: The closest we have to it is kind of an 249 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 2: ad mixture of Social Security numbers and driver's licenses, neither 250 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: of which are totally secure. But you've got to have 251 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 2: an apparatus that's capable of discerning and adjudicating at that scale. 252 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: It's not clear to me that we have everything that 253 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 2: we need. I think our friends at DHS would agree 254 00:13:44,280 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 2: that they could do with more resources, So we ought 255 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 2: to properly resource it to that end. 256 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: Don't you all only need some kind of administrative procedure 257 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: that somehow identifies and checks each person. 258 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: Probably, yeah, you probably do. And there's attempts at that 259 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: HE verify being one, normal employment verification, whether it's a 260 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 2: ten ninety nine or a W two being another, and 261 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 2: so that just needs to be enforced. Probably too, there 262 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 2: needs to be I'll venture into a little bit of 263 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 2: an area of ignorance for myself which will make me 264 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: like every other public commentator on all topics, which is 265 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 2: that there probably needs to be more employer's side enforcement 266 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: as well. 267 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: In your mind, is that done with the active cooperation 268 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: of the employers or is it done by operating raids. 269 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 2: It's got to be both. You can't assume a single 270 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 2: prong approach for this kind of thing. I guess, no, 271 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 2: it's more than a guess. I think the truth is 272 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 2: that most American employers will want to cooperate. There will 273 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: be a subset who don't. Those are the ones that 274 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 2: you maintain the capacity and practice of raids. 275 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: For One of the groups have been called dreamers, and 276 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: they've been identified several different times by Obama and by Trump. 277 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: Do you carve them out or just deport them? 278 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: The category of dreamers, it's unfortunate because it's such a 279 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 2: tough one from a perceptual stand point, But we have 280 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 2: to understand why these categories exist. The category of the 281 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: dreamer was specifically created to make from a communicative perspective, 282 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 2: a cohort of what i'll put in quotes acceptable illegal 283 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 2: aliens in the United States, the conservatives and also rule 284 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 2: of law oriented liberals and Democrats, of whom there are 285 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 2: many would find it politically impossible to deport, and then 286 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 2: having established that precedent, then you could move outward because then, 287 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 2: of course the point is conceded that you can't deport everybody. 288 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 2: It's tough, but you have to have the law of 289 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: the law, not in a mindless fashion, but in a 290 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 2: fashion that displays the prudential wisdom of understanding why it 291 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 2: is that the other side created this category to start with. 292 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 2: So no, I wouldn't create a carp for dreamers. I 293 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: would establish the same standard for each Here's the thing, though, 294 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: that you know, for those wanting a prudential individual level 295 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: applications of the law and justice and individual cases, you 296 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 2: can actually do that once you've cleared out the tens 297 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 2: of millions who've come in. You can actually do that 298 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: once you've solved the major problem. Tactical solutions become possible 299 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: only when the strategic challenge has been met, And we 300 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 2: still have to meet the strategic challenge. 301 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: How many million do you think you have to be 302 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: deported to have met the strategic challenge? 303 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: That depends upon your theory of how many are here, 304 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: which nobody really knows. I am of the school of 305 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: thought that it's between twenty and thirty million, which is 306 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: a titanic number. I've heard Obviously, either are those who 307 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: go much lower than that the high end that I've heard. 308 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: I don't adhere to this, but I have heard of 309 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: incredible peoples that it's in the thirty to fifty million range. 310 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 2: I find that strange mycadriulity, but it could be the case. 311 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 2: You have to deport enough. We can't get into macnamara solutions. 312 00:16:39,520 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 2: There's not a body count of the day that's going 313 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 2: to be adequate. We have to look to change behaviors. 314 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: We should deport enough to break the business model that 315 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 2: facilitated the deportations period full stop. That could be five million, 316 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: that could be two guys. We don't know, and it's 317 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: the unknowability that militates toward us having to apply all 318 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 2: efforts to get to it. I think we'll know when 319 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 2: we see, and until then we keep it going full speed. 320 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: One of the side problems here is the White House 321 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: on February first, issued a fact she that says, quote, 322 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: the Mexican drug trafficking organizations have an intolerable alliance with 323 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 1: the government of Mexico, and the Mexican President, Claudia Scheinbaum, 324 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: strongly opposed designating the cartels as foreign terrorists. Has she 325 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: largely been not helpful? 326 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: Oh, that depends on who you ask. The State Department 327 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: will tell you that she's been the most helpful person 328 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: of all time. 329 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: Of course, that could be a very limited description. 330 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 2: Indeed, it could. Yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. No, 331 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 2: but unfortunately they really are cooperating and selling her and 332 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 2: her regime as a genuine partner, which they're not. First 333 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: of all, the Mexican state is in partnership with its cartels. 334 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: There is a Mexican state cartel alliance. It has existed 335 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 2: for years. And what changed in twenty eighteen the arrival 336 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 2: of the current Mexican regime under the Morena Party, is 337 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 2: that it rose from becoming sort of an opportunistic partnership 338 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 2: to one that really was essential to the advancement of 339 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: this leftist Venezuela's style ideology that Morena is using to 340 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: transform Mexican society. So it is an existential partnership for them. 341 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 2: They need it and they require it for the maintenance 342 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 2: of their rule. What President Claudia Scheinbaum in Mexico has 343 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 2: done very smartly, I think. I mean, she's a very 344 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: intelligent and cunning person, not like her predecessor at all, 345 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: who was much more of a blunt instrument. She understands 346 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 2: that so long as she can provide what I'll call 347 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 2: the tactical window dressing to the Americans, sending over individual narcos, 348 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 2: sending over criminals, sending over cartel bosses, that most of 349 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,080 Speaker 2: our governing apparatus is going to interpret that as sufficient cooperation. 350 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: It's not. And this is something that we've said at 351 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: the America First Policy Institute and also at the Texas 352 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 2: Public Policy Foundation for some time now, which is that 353 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 2: real change comes not when the handover cartel members, but 354 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,919 Speaker 2: when the handover politicians. When you see political actors, officeholders, governors, 355 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 2: cabinet secretaries, senators, congressmen, and even the former president of 356 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 2: Mexico himself under indictment and handed over to the Americans, 357 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: then we'll know that they're serious about breaking the cartel alliance. 358 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: But we haven't seen that yet, and I don't think 359 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: we're going to and until that happens to a meaningful 360 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: degree from within their own party. It is a signal 361 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 2: to us that they are going to maintain that partnership 362 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: with their cartels. 363 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: And in March twenty twenty five, Fox News up ed 364 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: you wrote that the Mexican state quote establishes Marina Party, 365 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: sells throughout the United States, and activates someone desired. What 366 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: does that mean? 367 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: We have to understand that the Mexicans, even prior to 368 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: Morena's arrival at national power, has always regarded its nationals 369 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 2: abroad and it's illegal migrants abroad as its own. Now, 370 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: in a sense, that's not unusual. I mean, we regard 371 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 2: Americans abroad as our own as well. But what's different 372 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 2: about the Mexican regime's attitude toward Mexicans in the United 373 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 2: States is that they're essentially active participants in the corpus 374 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: of Mexican civics. So, for example, if you are a 375 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: Mexican national in the US, whether you're here illegally or 376 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:29,880 Speaker 2: not is irrelevant to them. In fact, they think it's 377 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 2: virtuous if you're here illegally in some way. Some of 378 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:33,959 Speaker 2: the ideologues will say that. But if you're a Mexican 379 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: resident in say California or Texas, or Nebraska or Iowa. 380 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: You actually have a congressman representing you in the Mexican Congress. 381 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 2: You actually have a liputado who you can vote for 382 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: the Mexican Consulate. You actually have allocated votes for Mexicans 383 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: abroad in the presidential races. It's very different than what 384 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 2: you see in the United States. I mean, it's unthinkable 385 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 2: that Americans in France would have electoral votes for themselves, 386 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 2: so but the Mexicans do that. And it's because this 387 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 2: this ideological belief that wherever the Mexican population is, there 388 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: too is Mexico. And that goes double for essentially the 389 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 2: southwestern quadrant of the United States, everything from California all 390 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 2: the way over to Texas, which in official Mexican discourse 391 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: you see this over and over and over, is still 392 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: regarded as fundamentally Mexican land. I'm personally offended by this. 393 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: As a descendant of them. Thank God for Zachary Taylor's army. 394 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 2: It's the best thing that happened to my lineage. That's 395 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 2: something that they operationalize. And so to your question about 396 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: the Morena party, cells Morena has followed this to the 397 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 2: logical degree, and they do have party sales in the 398 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 2: United States, and these party cells, we've seen them activate 399 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 2: from time to time. I have personally seen Morena posters, 400 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 2: not even election related, but just posters affirming loyalty to 401 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 2: the leader on their s manuel in Laredo, Texas, an 402 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 2: American town, when the New York Times reported accurately on 403 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: the Mexican president's ties to the sin Lower cartels and 404 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: the fact that he's likely been taking money from them 405 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 2: since two thousand and six, the Morena party sell in 406 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 2: New York City organized a quote unquote spontaneous protest to 407 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,919 Speaker 2: pick at the New York Times. Same thing when they 408 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: wanted to welcome undrestmen will to Washington, d C. When 409 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 2: he traveled there. I have had conversations in Mexico itself 410 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: with senior Mexican officials, advisors to the current president, who 411 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 2: have told me directly. I was astonished to hear this 412 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: said that if need be, they will activate the Mexicans 413 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: in the United States to defend their country because, in 414 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 2: their words, there's thirty million of them. Look, I'm one 415 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: of them, and I'm sure not going to defend the 416 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 2: Mexican regime. But this is sort of a very dangerous 417 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,680 Speaker 2: hubris that they have, and I think it is absolutely 418 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: unthinkable that that phenomenon is not at play somehow in 419 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 2: Los Angeles, given the rhetoric, and given the interest at 420 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: play emanating from Mexico City, and if we had certainly 421 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: local and state law enforcement, which you don't in California, 422 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: with any responsibility, this would already be investigated. 423 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: From your perspective, are we almost inevitably going to have 424 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: some kind of collision with the Mexican government. 425 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: It's going to come sooner or later. And I say 426 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 2: that with tremendous regret as somebody who is fundamentally from Mexico. 427 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: The Mexican regime people don't think that of me, but 428 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,880 Speaker 2: I actually am. I want Mexico to prosper and flourish 429 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: and be the best place it can possibly be. But 430 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 2: right now we have a choice as Americans. We have 431 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: a choice from a strategic perspective. We can accept the 432 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 2: confrontation now and demand real cooperation and real partnership that 433 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 2: frankly they owe us. There's no other way to put it, 434 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 2: or we can wait a decade until Mexico is fully 435 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: Venezuela ezed and has Venezuelan Cuban Russian Chinese personnel swarming 436 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 2: over it, which is a process that's already begun. Then 437 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: we can deal at it from that position, which is 438 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: going to be far more fraught and dangerous than before. 439 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: I'd rather do it now, and I'd rather do it well. 440 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 2: It can still be handled in the realm of diplomacy, 441 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 2: because the alternative is much worse. 442 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: As you look at this, would you say that Trump 443 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: has turned the corner on this. 444 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: Issue on Mexico itself? Yes, he's done something very important. 445 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: What President Trump has done is introduced reality into it. 446 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: The fact that there was a day one executive order 447 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: designating the cartels as foreign terror organizations, which, as you 448 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: noted before, Mission Speaker, the Mexican President opposed, and the 449 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 2: reason she opposed it is because it can sweep up 450 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,880 Speaker 2: the political partners of the cartels as well. The fact 451 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: that he did that, the fact that he explicitly reoriented 452 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,479 Speaker 2: the national security apparatus the defense of the southern border, 453 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,399 Speaker 2: the fact that he talked about an Article one, section 454 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 2: ten constitutional invasion in its proper sense. All of that 455 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,639 Speaker 2: is transformative. And so you know, one of the things 456 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: that I said to a variety of colleagues the day 457 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 2: after inauguration day was that God forbid, if his presidency 458 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 2: had ended after twenty four hours, he still would have 459 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 2: done more good to this relationship than any president of 460 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,119 Speaker 2: the preceding fifty sixty years. And I still think that's true. 461 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: As in all things, you know, with governments setting the predicates, 462 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 2: only part of the battle. Execution is the next and 463 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: what remains is to execute according to the precedence he set. 464 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 2: I think the jury is still out on that, and 465 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 2: that's not because of the president. It's because of the biocracy, 466 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: which is the eternal foe of the American interest, and 467 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: we've got to make sure that that bureaucracy carries out 468 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 2: the president's wishes. 469 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: In this respect, I was frankly startled by the speed 470 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: with which they closed down the border and the decisiveness. 471 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: Do you think that's sustainable? 472 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: We have to understand that there's two reasons the border 473 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 2: is closed down. One is superior enforcement on the American side, 474 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: which the President deserves full credit for, as does the 475 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 2: DHS apparatus for at large, as does the DoD And 476 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: that is sustainable. I mean, that's a permanent mission for 477 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 2: American governance. But there's another reason that the border was 478 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,639 Speaker 2: shut down, and I think that's one that gets missed 479 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 2: is that the Mexicans chose to shut it down. The 480 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 2: Mexican state cartel partnership chose to pause trafficking. And I 481 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 2: want to emphasize pause because it is not permanently solved. 482 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: The Mexicans are waiting for two things. They're waiting for 483 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 2: USMCA reauthorization, which, as I mentioned, is due no later 484 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: than July first, twenty twenty six. They need that to 485 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: sustain their economy. And then the second thing that they're 486 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,480 Speaker 2: waiting for is the midterm elections in twenty twenty six. 487 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 2: If USMCA reauthorization is implemented without security concessions, and if 488 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: the Democrats take control of the Congress after the midterms 489 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty six, then those long attention spans can 490 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: come back in twenty twenty seven. I believe, and we've 491 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 2: said this to many people, that twenty twenty seven will 492 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: see a resumption of human trafficking from the Mexican side 493 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: in full. So we're not out of the woods yet. 494 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 2: We're at a pause right now. They're trying to wait. 495 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: Us out, and in Mexico itself are the cartels gaining 496 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: or losing ground vis a vis the Mexican State. 497 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: I guess it depends on the metric that one's interested in. 498 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 2: There are some cartels that are on the wayne. There's 499 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 2: been a civil war in the Sala cartel for the 500 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 2: past several months. I think in sinal Low in particular, 501 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: which has been an epicenter. There's a temporary increase in 502 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 2: all described as army control, not state control. But we 503 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: have to understand that the army itself is a trafficking 504 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 2: organization in Mexico, and so to say that there's a 505 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: dichotomy between state control and cartel controls is to subscribe 506 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 2: to a false premise about the situation. I think what 507 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 2: I would say is that the state is exerting more 508 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 2: control over its cartel partners and more control over the 509 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: cartels that are not in partnership with it than it 510 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: has previously. But we've seen this cycle before this too. 511 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 2: We're not out of the woods. 512 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. This is 513 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: clearly going to be an evolving issue, and I hope 514 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: that you will come back again as it evolves. Our 515 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: listeners can follow the work you're doing at America First 516 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: Policy Institute. By visiting your website at America First Policy 517 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: dot com, which we will have on our show page. 518 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: And I really appreciate you spending time with us. 519 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 2: It's always a pleasure. Thank you, sir. 520 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Joshua Travino. You can learn 521 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: more about America First Policy Institute on our show page 522 00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: at newsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by Game of 523 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guernsey Sloan. 524 00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 525 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team 526 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: at Ginglishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 527 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 528 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 529 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of newts 530 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: World concern up for my three freeweekly columns at ginglistre 531 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 532 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 2: This is Newtsworld.