WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 26 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:06.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.519 --> 0:00:09.600 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.480 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.000 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:17.919 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.159 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:29.040 can make your own decisions. Oh it could welcome here 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:36.159 the podcast that happens ship. All right, well st Andrew, 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.160 I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot to you to 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:44.240 to pull us out of this tailspin I've locked it into. Hello, Hello, listen, 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.639 seen everyone today. I wanted to go on a bit 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:51.680 of a post no meandering, I guess on um, some 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:54.240 of the ideas and concepts that just kind of fluting 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:59.400 on my head um surrounding sustainable city planning and city living. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.320 I want to see a lot of these ideas and stuff, 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:07.600 UM kind of just crimp them from like all over 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.360 the place, and in some cases they are a bit 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:18.320 less i would say viable and others. But I do 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.800 find like the work of for example, Low tech magazine 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:26.200 Dot com and um and so on to be very 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:33.840 inspiring in terms of all capabilities, Um, what potential there 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:39.840 is an obsolete technologies? What though tech solutions exist for 0:01:39.920 --> 0:01:44.440 issues and what we can do as people to just 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:50.320 kind of make living in urban sprawl or suburban hell 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:59.440 a little bit less hellish. Yeah, that is definitely a 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.640 topical of my heart as well as someone who lives 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:06.600 in a city. I would like cities to be less hellish, yeah, 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.919 it seems. And I would like suburbs and not exist 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:15.320 so eternal. More on the suburbs, we have to ally 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:22.639 with rural America and protracted suburbs. Yes, yes, yeah, my my, 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.160 my crank proposal has always been reintroducing Macedons and just 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.400 like just having Macedons just like walking through and destroying buildings, 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:34.040 because that's that's what the suburbs deserves. Masterdons is in 0:02:34.160 --> 0:02:38.760 the actual animals. Yes, yes, I thought she meant like 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.720 the social media platform. No, no, I think we need 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.320 to clone leopards so that they breed as quickly as 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:49.160 rabbits and just let them loose. Wasn't doctor Defer Schmitz 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.440 raised by leopards? Sure? Why not? I would Robertino, who 0:02:53.440 --> 0:03:00.760 doctor difference riches. No, let's just let's just let's such 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:09.920 as Okay, I I think I think we are. We 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.600 are roughly the same, in the same age bracket for 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:18.920 television we watched, so I'm movies to catch up on. 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.280 I'm very familiar with the Good Doctor period. The platypus pilled, 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:35.880 very very very platypilled, as they say, plati pilled. Let's continue, right, So, um, 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:40.320 there are a lot of aspects of my evil plan 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:45.880 to make the entire tri state area more sustainable, but 0:03:46.520 --> 0:03:48.400 I think I would want to start with something that 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.480 tends to consume a lot of the energy in cities, 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.360 and that is like heating and cooling. I mean, for me, 0:03:55.520 --> 0:04:00.760 living in a tropical country, heating has never been a consideration. Um. 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:05.320 I mean, the coolest it gets isn't like the I 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:11.520 would say, like eighteen nineteen twenty degrees celsius area. Um so, 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.720 and to me that is like chili. That's like layering 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.320 up kind of thing, because I can't handle that kind 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:20.520 of cool um, which is kind of wild to me 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.240 that I have considered moving to Canada. I don't think 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.880 I'll people to handle it. It does it does get, 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.840 it does get much colder. I mean we when I 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.120 was in Canada, we would have not not uncommonly have 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:39.160 minus forty celsius weeks. So yeah, yeah, I've never I've 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.000 never experienced minus degrees before. I don't know, you know, 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.279 it's no, it is. Oh, it's fine, it's it's not 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.040 a big deal. You just put on an extra pair 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:51.160 of socks. You're good to go. Okay, So when when 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:56.560 it when it hits negative forty degrees fahrenheit, you've experienced 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.600 negative forty degrees. It's not like it's not like artic 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:05.120 temp like negative negative forty Negative forty fahrenheit is the 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:11.040 temperature of the surface of bars a sunny days. Negatives 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.080 is the same as negative forty celsius. Oh is it? 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.720 They actually converged at that point. Yeah, it's like you 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:23.440 just yeah, it's just your hain like it's not even 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:26.400 cold anymore. Like you just like your your face just hurts. 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:29.360 It's it's great. Many times I'm going to call out 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:33.000 my my my favorite meme again and have negative forty fahrenheit, 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:38.520 negative forty selfius celsius clapping hands in the middle. Yeah 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:48.159 classic anyway, Yes, yeah, I'm honestly, I can't even conceive 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.040 of that kind of sound pretty. Um, I am an 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:57.839 island boy, so that's so I operate it and as 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.479 an island boy. Um. How to say that? Like heat 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:09.279 is very very uncomfortable. Humidic humid heat is even more uncomfortable. 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.839 Dry heat is also extremely uncomfortable. When you have a 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:18.400 hot day combined with like sahara and dust in the 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:24.760 air and no clouds in the sky, it is truly, 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:34.960 truly miserable. I can't imagine, um, what life in a 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.400 city would be like if um, you know, these sort 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:44.200 of temperatures continue to climb as they are climbing, Um, 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:48.200 as you see you know, global average temperatures rising by 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:52.240 you know, a half degree or a degree or two 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.159 degrees celsi. Yes, that's just ridiculous, let alone three or 0:06:55.200 --> 0:07:00.200 four degrees celsius increase, especially compounded with the far that 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.480 in a city. There's this thing called the urban heat 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:08.520 island effect. So cities are ten degrees so it's hotter 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.520 than the surrounding countryside. And the reasons for the other 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:17.080 numerous You know, you have like vehicles emitting heat constantly, 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.320 you have air conditioners pumping heat into the air. You 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:27.080 have concrete and covering every surface just like absorbing and 0:07:27.240 --> 0:07:30.800 radiating the sun's rays. And you have these urban canyons 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.680 between tall buildings to prevent heat from escaping from and 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:39.880 to keep it at the sort of street level. It's miserable, right, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:44.160 And the typical solutions, the individual solutions, the short term solutions, 0:07:44.240 --> 0:07:47.920 they just make the situation worse because, I mean, when 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:49.560 you're feeling hot, and mean, I was just feeling hot 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.920 just now, and I turn on the E C right 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:53.720 when you're feeling hot, you know, you're sing the C, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.400 or you put on a fan, but not to wash 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:01.160 a fan, but the A C continues and fuels this 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.160 vicious cycle of heating the outdoors to cool the indoors, 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.920 making experience spaces even more uncomfortable. So you end up 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:14.960 with air conditioning use accounting for like one five of 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:19.720 global energy electricity usage of building related globe electricity usage, 0:08:20.520 --> 0:08:23.560 and you end up with the thing that's spposed to 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.880 be cooling us heating things even more because you know, 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:32.920 as developing countries, you know they have access to one 0:08:33.040 --> 0:08:35.480 more air conditioning, especially and you know towlpping countries, and 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:39.199 to be in the hotter side of the world, um, 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.079 you know, the use of the air condition just continues 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:46.400 to sky rop it and um the International Energy Agency 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.080 actually estimated that it would take the amount of energy 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.960 needed to cool buildings will triple by twenty fifty, which 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.199 is equivalent to the current electricity demand in the US 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:05.719 and Germany combined. Sue, on top of all that, you 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:13.040 will have an issue of like heat and heat deaths. Right, 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.160 the deaths and injuries caused by heat, I mean, heat 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:21.199 stroke is becoming more and more of an issue in cities, 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:25.479 especially when you know temperatures reach above twenty five degrees celsius. 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.600 People you know, manual labels, people who work outside, people 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:30.640 who just have to move around a lot, you know, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.400 experience the symptom the symptoms of heat stroke whenever there 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:37.440 is like the spike in temperature. Right, and then even 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.520 you know, if you don't experience like a heat stroke, 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:47.520 heat is exhausting. It is energy draining, is utterly sapping, 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.319 and it requires a lot out of your body to 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:59.960 keep you cool and prevent you from like eating. And surprisingly, 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.920 this overheating is you is not just like you know, 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:08.600 a tropical issue or like a hot country issue like 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:13.280 places like Moscow had like and asked meats a eleven 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.560 thou people die due to heat wave in twenty ten, 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.200 and so with all these heat waves and stuff, we 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:23.240 need to like figure out what to do with all 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.319 these giant concrete buildings. I mean, and for some people 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:33.760 like eco brutalism is you know, wow, so cool to 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.880 me personally, And this is just my subjective opinion. I 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:40.000 find it ugly and disgusting and I hated but you know, 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:46.319 to each stone right brutalism discourse, I mean, what what 0:10:46.360 --> 0:10:52.520 do you all think of rutalism. I think Yugoslavia and 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:55.160 brutalism was cool. Every other kind of brutalism is just 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.640 like my opinions on brutalism boiled down to thinking the 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:04.200 game control is far. I had stayed in a Yugoslavian 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:08.720 brutalist architecture hotel, which was one of the weirdest nights 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:10.560 of my life because it was clearly made. It was 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.320 like one of these gigantic, like people's hotels that was 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.480 meant to pride everyone with vacations, and so there's like 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:18.240 twenty thousand rooms and we were like the only three 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:20.200 people there. So there was one person at the desk, 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.880 and it's just cavern of empty rooms such this. Everything 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.120 felt like a liminal space. It was. It was very odd. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.240 It can be, it can be very very uncanny. It 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:35.080 wasn't like bad, it was like reasonably well constructed. It 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:39.080 was just deeply strange. Wants to spend the night. I 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:41.800 think that's what makes the game control so cool, is that. Yeah, 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.400 it plays with those uncanny feelings on brutalism while still 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:51.160 being like very cool. Like it's still that Jacob Kella 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.640 made a video vote right, yes he made a he 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:55.800 he didn't make a video like I watched that recently. 0:11:55.880 --> 0:11:58.960 This is like the sort of house kind of thing, 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.480 right right, right right, Yeah, yeah, I wanted to go 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.400 that game because I mean that's what that's kind of 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:09.800 like my issue with brutalism. It feels like a boss 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.400 level in a video game, like you have to go 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.840 through each level, clear what's all the minions and they 0:12:15.840 --> 0:12:18.240 get to the top and feed the boss. It's kind 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.920 of unsettling, yes, and then like eco brutalism is just 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:28.960 like oh what if trees tres Yeah, and it's like okay, cool, 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:33.960 but I mean like one of my many occupations and 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:37.520 I still maintain it seasonally. Um, I was a power washer, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:40.760 and I hate moss, and so to see moss all 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:42.800 over buildings just really bothers me. Like I just want 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:46.079 to get you know, my spring gun and just clear 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:50.520 it all off. Um. And especially in like this climate, 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:53.720 moss is like a very significant issue. So that makes sense, 0:12:54.160 --> 0:13:00.240 you know, Yeah, one of my pet peeves among many. So, 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.400 I mean the many different ways we could combat the 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:11.079 when heat island effects um that don't involve equo brutalism, 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.079 and they can also help to facility, you know, creating 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:18.440 more attractive spaces to live and to play. You know, 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:22.120 obviously the solution isn't just like build those every building 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:24.680 they does ever been built and make it more sustainable, 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:27.200 you know, with vernacular materials and stuff. So of course 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.760 new buildings should be built with those principles in mind. Um, 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.760 But you know, it's not practical to us even sustainable 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:38.480 to destroy all the buildings we've already built and rebuild them. 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:40.560 You know, the best thing we can do is try 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:49.360 to mitigate and adapt with what are we already have, um, 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:52.600 greenery and I know it's just roasting eco brutalism just 0:13:52.640 --> 0:13:58.720 track slack trees and everything is an important part in that, right, 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:04.440 because you know it, well, it causes evappo transpiration, which 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.920 is like where what's evaporates from plants, leaves and cools 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:13.480 the temperature. Um, you know it. We also improve people, 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:19.080 it's like psychological well being. Um. And they just the 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.120 nice look at um, the nice look at the keep 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.720 things cool. In fact, they can help cause temperatures to 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.000 drop by like two to three degrees celsius in the 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:31.680 like the surrounding area. I think people certainly misinterpreted, but 0:14:31.720 --> 0:14:33.040 like this, this is one of the big things you 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.320 can see with with racism in the U S. Where 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:39.120 like you can literally like you can literally track racial 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.200 divides in a lot of American cities by the by 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.800 the temperature because like people places where not why people 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:49.440 live just don't have trees. And you know this this 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.000 has like a just this sort of like cascading series 0:14:54.040 --> 0:15:00.360 of environmental and social effects which are a disaster and 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.880 environmental racism. Yeah, yes, released stark. Honestly, if you look 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:07.600 at the heat maps or some of these cities and 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:11.960 you could literally see, you know, where poor black folks live. 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.640 You know, you can see the places with less trees, 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.240 the places next to factories with like toxic here and 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.440 often waste and that kind of thing. It's just you know, 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:28.240 right there, and it sucks. Which is why, of course, 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:35.760 part of any sort of efforts to improve cities and 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:40.600 make things more sustainable would involve you know, social justice 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:47.960 and would involve responding to an addressing the compounding effects 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:53.120 of like environmental racism over the past several decades. So 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.320 and part of the issue again sign things back to 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:01.800 environmental racism is that a lot of the climate change 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:08.040 policies that you know, ostensibly amends to fever, like high 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:12.160 density urban and smart growth you know, like sustainable blocks 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:16.280 and that kind of thing. They are not conceived or 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:21.600 implemented in a way that involves the people being affected 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:24.480 by them. You know. In fact, a lot of these 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:33.960 like sort of green um projects raise the cost of food, energy, water, transport, 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.040 housing for people in the area. You know, they create 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:42.080 these sorts of like gentrified neighborhoods essentially whether the original 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:47.400 inhabitants can no longer afford to live there. So if 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:50.640 we wants to develop like a sustainable city or resiliencity, 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:59.480 sustainable oversagain neighborhood, it requires social justice, It requires you know, 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:05.720 at quity and you know, like the involvement of all 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:14.080 affected through you know, consensus or democracy. UM just really 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:20.720 shape the future that you know they will be experiencing 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.320 because they're the ones being affected by it. There are 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:28.520 a lot of other ways as well to heap proof 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:33.760 as it were a city, UM reflective roofs and roads. 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:41.159 UM can also helped reduce the absorptive powers of UM 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:46.280 solar radiation by concrete and asphalt. So in fact, in 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.080 some cities like l A and in New York, there's 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:55.000 this wide reflective coating that UM has been implemented in 0:17:55.119 --> 0:18:01.240 some five thousand meters square of roof space that saves 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:04.960 an estimated two thouso tons of CEO two per year 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:08.639 from cooling emissions. I mean, all it takes really is 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:11.960 just like that sort of white reflective coat, and it 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:18.800 saves dividends in the long run. UM NASA had done 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:23.440 some research on this and it demonstrated the results demonstrated 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.959 that a white roof could be twenty three degrees celsius 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.920 or forty two degrees fahrenheit cooler than a typical black roof. 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:37.440 UM on a hot New York somebody UM and the 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:42.359 places where like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, it's kind 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.320 of like glossed over that is crazy, that is absolutely 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:51.119 absolutely mild. And then in cities where like we're like 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:55.719 ten of the land area is like asphalt, you can 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.919 imagine how that sort of UM that's sort of a 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:05.639 lect of Zeiland can impact, um, the cooling or the 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:11.439 heating of the area. Water. Of course, it's another like 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:21.000 important aspect of cooling cities. UM. In Andalus, which was 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:26.360 like the Muslim kingdom in Gebrian Peninsula in the fourteenth 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:30.320 century UM, they used to have these sort of like 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:36.480 courtyards with pools and fountains that would stimulate water evaporation 0:19:36.640 --> 0:19:40.840 and cool the air, and so like cities today, you know, 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.320 take some hints from that. You know, you have ponds 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:48.200 and pools and fountains and missing systems and stuff that 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:49.880 can sort of chill things out. I mean we see 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:57.159 that being UM implemented in China, where you have like, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:02.280 for example, UM water mister does at like bus stops, 0:20:02.320 --> 0:20:07.080 which can chill the air and you know, cool passengers 0:20:07.119 --> 0:20:11.280 as they wait. UM. And they found actually that adding 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:17.200 water features and like cool coatings reduces the cooling requirements 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.720 of an area by twenty nine and also lowers the 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.240 overall averaging at temperature by one point five degrees celsius. 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:30.120 So it's like honestly wild, like these little things can 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.520 have such a major impact on temperature. Speaking of like 0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:41.720 old methods of cooling, UM, ancient methods of cooling, there's 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:46.680 this Middle Eastern shading device called the mastra bil um 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.439 or I think it's mastra ba, and it's basically an 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:56.640 architectural element that is usually built by um wooden lattice 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:02.040 work and sometimes stay in the glas as it's used 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:07.640 to like catch and cool the wind through like having 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:11.399 these basins of water in them is I mean, so 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.920 I could try to describe it. It's like a window 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:19.639 jutting out of a building UM with some decorated by 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.800 lattice work, with jars and basins of water placed within 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.320 them to let the wind pasture. And as the wind 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:29.359 is passing through, it's caused an evaporative cooling then it 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:35.560 chills out the interior and to these mastra bears um. 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:39.800 They've been used since the Middle Ages by you know, 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:47.160 the Coptic churches of Egypt and the Art Deco movement 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:52.800 in Iraq, and and by you know, the architecture um 0:21:52.840 --> 0:21:56.600 in bad Dad, as well. And so these sort of 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.359 construction methods, while they tend to be developed for you know, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.680 individual homes or individual buildings, um, they can in fact 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:11.440 be implemented um with even the aesthetics of Islamic geometry 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:17.120 to help to cool a building and produce its overall. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:20.200 See what twe missions. So I've been talking about heating 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:23.959 and cooling and stuff for a while now, and speaking 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.200 of I should probably to see it's off my rather. 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.480 I think I heard either either it was you, Andrew, 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:33.560 or maybe it was Robert talking about the ceramic kind 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:40.440 of cooling idea. Yeah, I mean that's the thing, and 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:43.800 like the part of the Americans Southwest, like New Mexico, 0:22:43.880 --> 0:22:47.000 there's a lot of like swamp coolers that are basically working, right, Yeah, 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.959 swamp cool swamp coolers. It only works in certain climates, right, 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:53.480 Like you wouldn't really don't ye because if it's if 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.040 it's too it's too humid, it's not gonna work. You're 0:22:57.080 --> 0:23:01.840 just gonna from more humid. Yeah. I think there's kind 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.520 of a broader thing there architecturally, which is that like 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.960 we have a lot of sort of like like we've 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.760 we've we've lost a lot of in the way we 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.080 do architecture. We've lost a lot of this sort of 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:20.119 like building we we've lost a lot of sort of 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:26.040 building techniques adapted to specific locations. Yeah yeah, yeah, And 0:23:26.080 --> 0:23:28.679 like that's something that has to be reversed, like immediately, 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:32.679 because like our our current model of building houses out 0:23:32.680 --> 0:23:37.840 of oil is going to get us all killed. Really, 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:42.920 what's what's the problem there? What's wrong? What's that? I mean? 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:45.840 And toff with that, right, not just vernacular architecture, but 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:50.919 vernacular clothing. I mean it's I mean as again, so 0:23:50.960 --> 0:23:53.120 when living in a tropical country, I see it for myself, 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:58.440 like working people going to work where in like full 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:03.040 long sleeve dress shoots and long long dress pants and 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:09.439 you know, like formal shoes and it's honestly up you 0:24:09.440 --> 0:24:11.800 know sometimes like they have the whole tie like you know, 0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:16.480 pull up and everything. It's not it's entirely based on 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:21.920 like European standards of professionalism, and um, it needs to 0:24:21.920 --> 0:24:26.800 be abolish. Abolish dress coods, alright, abolished, like this whole 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:31.320 idea that you know, we have to dress this particular way, um, 0:24:31.359 --> 0:24:36.919 despite you know, the temperature, because it's more professional or whatever. 0:24:38.880 --> 0:24:42.679 For professionalism honestly. Yeah, we we have we have podcasting 0:24:42.760 --> 0:24:45.480 or in the vanguard of this, but we need help 0:24:45.560 --> 0:24:49.600 to destroy professionalism once and for all. Yeah yeah, ye 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:56.720 show up to where can you be then suit? Um. 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.880 But yeah, like vernacular buildings as well, you know, obvi, 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:05.240 stay you had in in Africa, in different parts of Africa, 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:10.320 you would have different structures that were particularly tigulets. You know, 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:13.000 if you're in a in a tropical reinforest environment, you 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:15.399 would have a bill in a steeler to you know, 0:25:16.000 --> 0:25:21.160 keeping mosquitoes out and maintaining a certain temperature within and 0:25:21.920 --> 0:25:26.240 maintaining comfort as well within or you know, in cooler 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:31.080 regions you would have um certain construction that would keep 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:41.560 heats within the building and prevent um excessive discomfort you know. Um. 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:43.720 And they were also of course, like when it comes 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:48.200 to like cooler areas, you will also expected to sort 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:51.120 of keep yourself warm as well as you know, keep 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:53.400 your building warm. In fact, it was more so keeping 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:56.000 yourself personally warm, so keeping yourself lay up even when 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.560 you're indoors. And of course that's kind of lost today 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:00.960 people are expected to just you know, turne on the 0:26:01.000 --> 0:26:06.000 heater and vibe for the months of winter. But it 0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:09.840 isn't sustainable. A lot of things we enjoy today unsustainable. 0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:13.880 Keeps going back to that. But yeah, speaking of things 0:26:13.880 --> 0:26:17.080 that we enjoy that are not at all sustainable, how 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:21.399 about cause get rid of cause? Please get rid of cause. 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:25.080 I mean, cause are very convenient in terms of like, 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:29.960 if you want to get somewhere very specific, um, you know, 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:32.280 if there's a place you want to go, I'm the 0:26:32.359 --> 0:26:35.840 one you need to know. I'm a car. I'm a car. 0:26:35.960 --> 0:26:40.159 I'm a car. You know kind of thing. But my 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:46.200 little musical interview there, thank you for appreciating it. But ultimately, 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:53.960 like they honestly aren't sustainable. They honestly on something that 0:26:54.000 --> 0:26:58.280 we can maintain in the nail even well potentially in 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:01.720 the neighborance, which the far future. I mean, people are 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:04.639 already new the problems with gascars, already knew who my 0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:07.640 gascars are bad. But you know, things just just things 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:12.240 are just sort of pivoted towards electric cars. And who 0:27:12.280 --> 0:27:14.680 electric cars, Let's get a bunch of electric cars. Who 0:27:15.320 --> 0:27:20.680 But electric cars aren't better. I mean the materials they require, 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:27.800 the energy they require, it's quite frankly not sustainable in 0:27:27.800 --> 0:27:32.840 the long run, and it just lengthens the amount of 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:37.320 time that we spend dependence on cause for short and 0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:40.600 long distance travel. And especially how in the States we've 0:27:40.840 --> 0:27:43.360 built our cities around the idea of a car, which 0:27:43.359 --> 0:27:47.400 has expanded the urban terrain unnecessarily. And if you look 0:27:47.400 --> 0:27:49.719 at like all the space taken up, like highways and overpasses, 0:27:49.760 --> 0:27:52.400 and how much of just like urban space is taken 0:27:52.480 --> 0:27:56.200 up but just been built around the idea of the car, 0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:58.879 it really kind of makes the whole idea of a 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:02.919 city so much less useful. It's it's really it's really frustrating. 0:28:03.720 --> 0:28:05.600 And I think it's also working at the cars or 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:10.600 so unbelievably dangerous. Yeah, yeah, we're very much used to 0:28:10.680 --> 0:28:14.600 like having these like death machines driving around at all times, 0:28:15.119 --> 0:28:19.320 and that that makes for like a very um cool 0:28:19.400 --> 0:28:24.600 like series of metal band song names or whatever. But 0:28:25.280 --> 0:28:30.159 the death statistics on funny when it comes to cause. No, 0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:35.320 and like the average transport transportation time having cars has 0:28:35.359 --> 0:28:38.760 not actually decreased, Like the amount of time it takes 0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:40.800 to get from place to place based on like where 0:28:40.800 --> 0:28:43.160 you live in your city has not actually increased because 0:28:43.160 --> 0:28:46.480 now everything has just spread further apart, so a hundred 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:48.480 years ago would take you know, like a fifteen minute 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:50.920 trek to get to like, you know, the market or something. 0:28:51.200 --> 0:28:53.560 It can take off times longer, especially if you're driving 0:28:53.600 --> 0:28:56.280 in like rush hour traffic to get just just just 0:28:56.320 --> 0:28:59.000 like a couple of miles, where even in some cases 0:28:59.160 --> 0:29:02.320 a decent jaw could get you there faster. Um, just 0:29:02.400 --> 0:29:05.280 because of how we've just designed the cities all around 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:09.760 these rolling metal death cages. Um. Yeah, it's not it's 0:29:09.840 --> 0:29:11.520 it's not great. It's one of the reasons I don't 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:15.080 currently have a car. Yeah, And that's kind of that's 0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:16.760 something that's shocking to a lot of people when I 0:29:16.800 --> 0:29:19.440 tell them that, really I have no intention if have 0:29:19.520 --> 0:29:22.320 a buying a car of ever owning a car. It's 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:29.000 not something that I want. And I mean I live 0:29:29.160 --> 0:29:34.760 relatively close to like some of the major transport um 0:29:35.040 --> 0:29:37.720 arteries of the country, and you know, not has like 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:43.520 this unique ish transportation system public transportation system. So we 0:29:43.560 --> 0:29:48.920 have these privately owned maxi taxis that um they're like 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:54.440 vans with seats in the back, um and you know, 0:29:54.480 --> 0:29:57.720 you could you just kind of jump in um depending 0:29:57.760 --> 0:30:01.640 on where they're going, which rooted taken um and they're 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:04.640 they're convenient enough for me and for my purposes, so 0:30:04.680 --> 0:30:07.600 I just you know, I go areyed to go um 0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:16.120 with them. But they're also gas guzzling in efficient machines. 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:18.720 I mean they're better than you know, all those people 0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:21.360 driving cause I mean as an island, you know, like 0:30:21.440 --> 0:30:23.160 I don't know why we're so obsessed with having more 0:30:23.200 --> 0:30:27.200 and more cars on the road, um, But at the 0:30:27.280 --> 0:30:29.880 end of the day, they still aren't the best in 0:30:30.040 --> 0:30:39.920 terms of sustainability and in terms of viable, reliable, sustainable transport. UM. 0:30:40.000 --> 0:30:42.880 We also have like personal taxis as well, but they 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.560 have the same problems as regular taxis. And what's frustrating 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:51.880 is that we used to have a train line UM 0:30:51.920 --> 0:30:55.560 that went along the entire east West corridor of the country. 0:30:55.640 --> 0:30:58.000 That's where most of the people internata along the East 0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:03.800 West corridor, UM. But that was destroyed in the nineties sixties, 0:31:03.880 --> 0:31:07.440 I think, to make way for highways and a priority 0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:11.280 bus route. So instead of having a nice, convenient, cute 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:13.960 little train that we could seek to go from place 0:31:14.000 --> 0:31:17.520 to place, you have to rely on buses and maxis 0:31:17.560 --> 0:31:25.960 and taxis. And cause yeah, that is quite that's not cool. 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:29.880 That is quite not good, quite quite grim because we 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.400 need to reconfigure. Seriously, I would love for them to 0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:37.720 bring back trains so able to take a train don't 0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:43.680 have to rely on I mean, government bureaucracy makes all 0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.560 things unreliable, but I think a train would have been 0:31:48.200 --> 0:31:52.040 slightly more reliable than a bus. Very much. On the 0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:55.320 pro train, on the on the pro train train, I've 0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:59.840 had a fewer, few fewer, fewer moments more happy then, right, 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:04.560 the Portland's Max line and straightcar in a no face costume. 0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:08.840 It's very it's it's very fun. I think. Also, like 0:32:09.080 --> 0:32:12.520 another thing about about cars, right, this is just it's 0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:14.800 just just on a very pure political level, like cars 0:32:14.800 --> 0:32:17.720 is a thing that allowed suburbs to exist, and the 0:32:17.720 --> 0:32:23.520 existence of suburbs has produced just generation upon generation of 0:32:23.720 --> 0:32:28.200 like frothing reactionaries who are the source of like enormous 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.240 percentages of the world's problems. And so if you get 0:32:31.320 --> 0:32:35.040 rid of those places, you produce less of them. Yeah, 0:32:35.320 --> 0:32:37.840 which is just a political benefit for anyone who wants 0:32:37.880 --> 0:32:45.280 to not die exactly exactly. I mean, we don't think 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:47.640 about it because there's already so many things to think about. 0:32:47.760 --> 0:32:53.640 But if you actually sat down on pondered the death 0:32:53.680 --> 0:32:58.360 tool of like cause. Um, we really and really brought 0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:02.080 to the forefront and really made it less of a necessity. 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:04.120 I think one more people would be open to the 0:33:04.160 --> 0:33:07.959 idea of rejecting cause to keeping them as at most 0:33:09.360 --> 0:33:15.640 benign a novelty. Um that maybe one or two exists 0:33:15.640 --> 0:33:20.920 in the entire community, UM for use if needs be, UM, 0:33:20.960 --> 0:33:26.280 But otherwise I I don't see how each and every 0:33:26.280 --> 0:33:29.720 person in the world owning their own car is at 0:33:29.760 --> 0:33:37.479 all the best way to go. Also, cause are kind 0:33:37.520 --> 0:33:46.479 of ugly to me. Yeah, we really didn't design them 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:49.000 to look cool, which just it's I mean, there's some 0:33:49.080 --> 0:33:50.840 cars that look kind of cool, like some of the 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:55.560 more classic ones. But and that's part of the issue, right, 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:59.320 they're getting uglier to me, And they're also getting larger, 0:33:59.600 --> 0:34:04.520 you know, people like Yeah, they're raising their drills more 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:07.640 and more so, like you basically a pedestrian killing machine. 0:34:08.120 --> 0:34:11.600 We've effectively undone most of the benefits of making cars 0:34:11.640 --> 0:34:16.200 safer for passengers by making them much more dangerous for pedestrians, 0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:21.000 which is entirely a marketing choice. Like, if you like 0:34:21.040 --> 0:34:23.480 the fucking trucks they were making twenty five years ago, 0:34:23.560 --> 0:34:26.040 are just as useful, um and in a lot of 0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:29.680 cases more useful for like practical farm work for hauling 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:33.040 and whatnot than the trucks they're making today. They haven't 0:34:33.080 --> 0:34:36.919 meaningfully gotten better, They've just gotten a lot larger for 0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:39.719 no real reason other than it makes people feel like 0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:43.160 big men. Well, and then you get these fun you 0:34:43.160 --> 0:34:44.360 get these fun you can you can look at the 0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:48.680 marketing people like explicitly talking about how like yeah, like 0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:52.040 they like basically explicitly playing into the fantasy of running 0:34:52.040 --> 0:34:58.120 over protesters and it's it's great. It's yeah, So get 0:34:58.239 --> 0:35:02.320 rid of cars and you won't have to deal with that. 0:35:05.040 --> 0:35:10.600 But Chris, how is that sustainable or viable? Good question? 0:35:12.840 --> 0:35:21.600 Introducing super blocks? Oh yes, superblocks are basically um neighborhood 0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:23.319 of nine blocks. So I don't think they have to 0:35:23.360 --> 0:35:28.640 be I think the philosophy and ideas behind super blocks 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:34.720 could be implemented suit different um cities of different histories 0:35:34.760 --> 0:35:40.240 and different layouts, especially localized especially such like localized street 0:35:40.239 --> 0:35:43.440 cars within each city block, within within each superblock like 0:35:43.520 --> 0:35:49.600 system exactly. So, just to clarify, the idea of super 0:35:49.600 --> 0:35:52.560 blocks are basically um, you know, neighborhoods of nine blocks, 0:35:53.160 --> 0:35:57.040 where traffic is restricted to the roads on the outside 0:35:57.040 --> 0:36:00.279 of the block, which means that the interior of these 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:05.120 super blocks entirely walkable. That, combined with the idea of 0:36:05.120 --> 0:36:10.280 a superblock being um mixed use, means that people are 0:36:10.320 --> 0:36:15.360 mostly able to access their basic necessities within their city block. 0:36:15.800 --> 0:36:18.879 Are you able to like spend more time, have more 0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:21.080 open space, to spend more time to meet with people, 0:36:21.160 --> 0:36:24.680 to talk, to do do activities, to you know, have 0:36:24.719 --> 0:36:29.360 some relief from noise pollution and air pollution from vehicles, 0:36:29.560 --> 0:36:33.040 and to really like connect people with the space they're 0:36:33.080 --> 0:36:36.320 living in and make the space they're living in more livable. 0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:39.920 I mean, I don't live smack dab in the middle 0:36:39.960 --> 0:36:46.560 of like urban urban town, but I could imagine if 0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:49.160 people living in like New York or whatever, you know, 0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:52.120 you can't exactly step out of your apartment and play 0:36:52.160 --> 0:36:54.239 in the road on a typical day, if you have 0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:56.080 kids or whatever, you know, they can't exactly just go 0:36:56.200 --> 0:37:02.719 run outside. Um you will die exactly, so exactly exactly. 0:37:02.880 --> 0:37:05.279 And I mean people complaining about like, okays, lease, do 0:37:05.440 --> 0:37:11.480 some go outside as much? But I mean, look at outside, 0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:14.719 you know, look at what look at what has been created? 0:37:15.440 --> 0:37:18.680 Um and reflect on that. I mean, part of the 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:22.640 assuer is um the way social media algorithms are designed 0:37:22.640 --> 0:37:26.560 to suck people into like cycles of addiction. But that's 0:37:26.560 --> 0:37:29.719 a whole another topic. Right, Um, I think a lot 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.200 of people, more people will be willing to be able 0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:37.759 to pull themselves out to that sort of harmful algorithmic. Hell, 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:44.200 if there was an outside pull themselves out too, you know. 0:37:44.920 --> 0:37:50.560 But honestly, cities, especially a notorious for like not having 0:37:50.600 --> 0:37:53.840 places you can be where you don't have to spend money, 0:37:54.280 --> 0:38:00.319 and that sucks. So I think, um, super blocks being 0:38:00.360 --> 0:38:06.400 places where you know, libraries and um, please some people 0:38:06.440 --> 0:38:10.840 can eat, maker spaces, community kitchens. It does seem to 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:15.440 be missing or ignoring what we're gonna lose with super blocks, 0:38:15.520 --> 0:38:18.440 which is how how am I gonna roll down the 0:38:18.480 --> 0:38:21.359 streets smoking indow sipping on gin and juice if I'm 0:38:21.400 --> 0:38:25.080 not allowed to drive within my block? Wow? I think 0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:29.879 we can. I think I think you could just get 0:38:29.880 --> 0:38:34.560 a bike? Who's cruising all the bicycle? Have you tried 0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:38.040 smoking indow, sipping on gin and juice while riding a bicycle. 0:38:38.239 --> 0:38:43.080 It's it's impossible. Get a couple hold anything as possible 0:38:43.440 --> 0:38:47.680 as a Snoop Dogg eraser. No. But the the idea 0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:51.800 of having like community gardens, community like kitchens, like a 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:56.280 maker spaces, libraries, all these within like this super block framework, 0:38:56.320 --> 0:38:59.840 you know, like green spaces. It does make actual urbans 0:39:00.160 --> 0:39:03.200 living the same attractive and not like you're just living 0:39:03.239 --> 0:39:08.040 in nested concrete boxes. Yeah. I mean people like living 0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:12.600 cities because that's where everything's happening, right, But yeah, you 0:39:12.600 --> 0:39:14.239 you want people to take part in the things that 0:39:14.280 --> 0:39:18.920 are happening, but the places aren't livable. Yeah, you don't 0:39:19.000 --> 0:39:21.200 have the table that will continue to complain about until 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:23.080 the end of time, which the table in Chicago Trying 0:39:23.120 --> 0:39:24.920 Town that threatens to arrest you for sitting at it. 0:39:25.400 --> 0:39:31.160 Like it's yeah, like the hostility of this goes back 0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:34.319 to like racism because of course everyone does everything does. 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:36.480 But you know a lot of these loitering laws and 0:39:36.480 --> 0:39:40.360 stuff which she designed to target black people and to 0:39:40.440 --> 0:39:45.080 target you know, poor people, um like vagrancy laws and 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:47.840 that sort of thing, just hostile people's existence, and that 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:51.640 gets into like hostile architecture and that sort of thing. 0:39:51.680 --> 0:39:54.840 But I think with these super blocks, you know, we 0:39:54.920 --> 0:39:59.759 open up our spaces to make them welcoming to human 0:39:59.760 --> 0:40:04.399 ex systems, spaces that are not built around cars, built 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:08.040 around commutes, built around week And this obviously is a 0:40:08.080 --> 0:40:13.960 transformation that requires more than just you know, vote for 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:17.600 so and so and make this a degree and kind 0:40:17.640 --> 0:40:19.799 of thing. You need. You need something more substantial than that. 0:40:20.600 --> 0:40:23.600 You know, within these super blocks as well, you're you're 0:40:23.640 --> 0:40:32.440 able to take stock of how your block or whatever, 0:40:32.520 --> 0:40:37.520 you have a better mental sense of um community and 0:40:37.600 --> 0:40:39.440 able to take about a sense of even things like 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:46.680 how your block can communally sustain themselves and you know, 0:40:47.760 --> 0:40:53.640 reduce waste and all these different things. This in conjunction 0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:58.160 with struggle against capitalism in the state. But you know 0:40:58.239 --> 0:41:02.440 that is implied. This is you know, m this is 0:41:02.480 --> 0:41:04.200 the show. This is it could happen here. I don't 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:08.040 know if you expect and like electoralism, but that's not 0:41:08.040 --> 0:41:11.200 really what we do around here. I mean the benefits 0:41:11.520 --> 0:41:14.439 to these sort of like super blocks, you know, these 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:17.520 fifteen minutes zon so people can walk within fifteen minutes 0:41:17.520 --> 0:41:20.279 to get the essentials. The benefits are innumerable. You know, 0:41:20.640 --> 0:41:25.840 that's the equality, less noise, healthy lifestyle, mental health boost 0:41:27.280 --> 0:41:32.480 But the issue is without a combination of you know, 0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:37.759 these projects and these activities with like anti capitalism and 0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:45.040 anti statism. It's it's tends to lend itself towards gentrification. 0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:48.000 And we've seen that in Spain, which is where UM 0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:51.719 some of these super blocks have been implemented. UM. They've 0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:55.479 created like these locations that are obviously more desirable because 0:41:55.520 --> 0:41:59.040 who doesn't want to live in a super block where 0:41:59.120 --> 0:42:01.279 you know, you actually sense of community because we're all 0:42:01.320 --> 0:42:04.200 desperate for that UM and at least an increase in 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:08.279 property demand, higher prices, higher rent It basically creates these 0:42:08.280 --> 0:42:12.960 pockets of unaffordable neighborhoods, displacing local residents. So you have 0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:16.080 to get into the fight against gentrification in order to 0:42:16.120 --> 0:42:21.200 make this, you know, idea viable. The last thing that 0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:25.560 I want to get into really is as conventioned UM 0:42:25.640 --> 0:42:29.760 community gardens. I want to talk about urban farming because 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:34.400 that is crucial. I mean, part of what UM makes 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:37.400 cities cities in all the cases is the fact that 0:42:37.440 --> 0:42:40.880 they imports all their food. Right. They have the urban 0:42:41.080 --> 0:42:49.400 rural divide that you know delineates the two areas UM, 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:54.879 but considering the transportation costs, the energy costs, all those 0:42:54.920 --> 0:43:02.000 things that compound UM two to stay in a city 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:07.320 a city's food needs. We have to look to ways 0:43:07.400 --> 0:43:13.160 that we can sustain cities and sustain neighborhoods within cities, um, 0:43:13.200 --> 0:43:18.399 within themselves. Before I continue, I just want to point 0:43:18.400 --> 0:43:21.680 out that the future of urban farming is not in 0:43:21.840 --> 0:43:27.040 vertical farms. UM. They look very cool, you know, like 0:43:27.080 --> 0:43:31.640 those tall kind of like pillars of like letters or whatever, 0:43:32.120 --> 0:43:35.440 growing out sort of things, but the land that they 0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:39.120 save is usually canceled out by the land they need 0:43:39.120 --> 0:43:42.719 to produce the energy to power them, like, they're very 0:43:43.880 --> 0:43:51.440 energy intensive UM spaces. So until that issue is resolved, 0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:54.400 and I don't know if it will be considering you 0:43:54.440 --> 0:43:56.400 know how the energy requirements are just sort of built 0:43:56.480 --> 0:44:00.279 into the vertical the concentration of energy requirements built sort 0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:04.680 of into the foot of a farming design. UM, we 0:44:04.760 --> 0:44:10.880 have to look to more practical methods. Landownership tends to 0:44:10.880 --> 0:44:15.480 be a major hurdle UM when it comes to organizing 0:44:16.120 --> 0:44:20.359 community gardens and maintaining community gardens UM. I mean, like 0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:23.960 folks like Black Futures Farm, Oakland Avenue Urban Farm, and 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:28.000 the Victory Garden Initiative. They've been working to like provide 0:44:28.000 --> 0:44:31.160 fresh produce to those in need, especially in urban food deserts. 0:44:31.640 --> 0:44:35.040 But in a lot of these projects, they go in 0:44:35.160 --> 0:44:37.919 good for some years and then the city suddenly spins around. 0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:40.600 It's like, we need this land for development, so they 0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:44.200 just snatch it up, and you know, those years of 0:44:44.920 --> 0:44:50.399 efforts just basically put on the dream um Community land 0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:56.360 trusts have been put forward as a potential um solution 0:44:56.520 --> 0:45:01.839 to that issue. But like a lot of these things, 0:45:01.840 --> 0:45:04.040 I mean, it's a good band aid, I would say, 0:45:04.080 --> 0:45:11.960 but it's not necessarily marking the end of capitalism. Another 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:15.719 issue that there is with the whole urban farming thing 0:45:16.320 --> 0:45:21.560 is that the culture that develops around them while they 0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:26.880 provide education and community and connection for people within them, 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:32.200 and that is extremely valuable. I think some organizers fall 0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:35.680 into this habit of treating, of creating. It's sort of 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:44.200 like shared delusion around community gardens, you know, claiming to 0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:47.360 be sort of feeding the people couldn't could And what 0:45:47.360 --> 0:45:52.120 already brought this to my attention was Inhabits Territories newsletter. 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:54.960 We had an article on it last year, I think, 0:45:55.440 --> 0:45:59.000 on you know, urban community gardens, and it was written 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:02.480 by Gibriel I've seen, the co founder of at Planta, 0:46:03.360 --> 0:46:07.600 which I find to be a very very creative name 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:13.120 basically asked the question are we really feeding ourselves? I mean, 0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:16.400 these local food initiatives they do produce food that people eat, 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:22.080 but it can be a bit harmful to be overly 0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:28.200 optimistic about our food autonomy at this stage, especially considering 0:46:28.239 --> 0:46:35.799 how reliant we still are on big agriculture. You know, like, yes, 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:41.240 we are producing you know, organic nutritionally this dense crops 0:46:41.239 --> 0:46:45.080 and stuff, and that's great, that's helping people, but you know, 0:46:47.160 --> 0:46:51.120 oftentimes it usually just means that, you know, the people 0:46:51.239 --> 0:46:54.040 might be getting participants. I'm be getting like a salad 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:56.640 or you know, a couple. To me too, it's not 0:46:56.719 --> 0:47:01.160 necessarily they're cutting down their grocery bill in a sustainable, 0:47:01.480 --> 0:47:03.839 long term way, because I mean, if you've tried God, 0:47:03.920 --> 0:47:05.840 then you know that, like when you're work here with 0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:08.680 a limited space, you know, you grow your food set 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:10.840 it to me too, is it means it was a 0:47:10.840 --> 0:47:13.640 cool but they don't last forever, you know, and you 0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:15.799 have to wait until the next harvest to get more. 0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:18.080 To me too, its or whatever the case may be. 0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:23.080 Same for like letters or whatever. It's kinda rough, you know, 0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:27.680 it doesn't it helps for like a meal or maybe two, 0:47:28.040 --> 0:47:31.680 depending on like a living situation, but it doesn't meaningfully 0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:39.279 cut into our reliance and groceries and you know, food imports. Yeah, 0:47:39.320 --> 0:47:40.959 it definitely takes a bit to get to that point, 0:47:41.000 --> 0:47:42.640 and you have to do it with a combination of 0:47:42.640 --> 0:47:46.840 like food preservation and like canning, um, and like you know, 0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:48.840 like jarring and a whole bunch of other stuff to 0:47:48.840 --> 0:47:51.680 actually make that a worthwhile endeavor as opposed to just 0:47:51.760 --> 0:47:54.480 making like great, I spent three months making these tomatoes. 0:47:54.880 --> 0:47:57.839 Now they're ready for one meal and then they're all God, 0:47:58.560 --> 0:48:01.759 it would be like one salt. Yeah. Yeah, you do 0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:04.120 have to really kind of figure out how to grow 0:48:04.280 --> 0:48:08.120 enough to keep enough ready to be harvested for jarring 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:10.840 and canning for future use um, and make sure like 0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:13.759 you're you know, harvesting them when they are ready so 0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:15.960 that you can you know, you don't lose stuff, and 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:19.480 that you have like you know, an ongoing, ongoing process 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:22.359 of like preserving the fit that you do grow for 0:48:22.600 --> 0:48:25.840 later um as well. So you can definitely take a 0:48:25.840 --> 0:48:30.239 lot a lot more like mental effort and planning than 0:48:30.320 --> 0:48:32.280 just you know, planting it and then you know, using 0:48:32.280 --> 0:48:36.520 it and cooking it when it's when it's all ready. Yeah. 0:48:36.560 --> 0:48:38.400 I mean a lot of energy and self is put 0:48:38.480 --> 0:48:42.040 into growing things like greens and roots and fruiting vegetables. 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:44.319 And they're healthy, you know, they have the vita wins 0:48:44.360 --> 0:48:49.360 and micro nutrients. But you know, people still need meat, dairy, eggs, 0:48:49.840 --> 0:48:55.560 you know protein, yeah, heavy, high calorie dense stuff, you know, 0:48:55.600 --> 0:48:59.480 like potitoos and other starches like a really holy buloofu 0:48:59.840 --> 0:49:02.120 we eats and that kind of thing, and that just 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:05.879 isn't being grown right now. You know, wheat and rice 0:49:06.000 --> 0:49:09.600 and soy and nuts and corn and sugar. These staples 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:14.080 and stuff don't tend to be produced by these community 0:49:14.160 --> 0:49:21.279 gardens and by these garden plots. Not many many, not 0:49:21.400 --> 0:49:26.919 many legume patches at your local community garden. Yeah yeah, yeah, 0:49:27.000 --> 0:49:30.840 yeah yeah. Like I'm in the process of grin um 0:49:30.920 --> 0:49:37.160 some pigeon peas right now, and they are taking a 0:49:37.239 --> 0:49:42.120 very long while. And what I realize is that, um, 0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:43.719 I mean, I just plan to them, so I'm being 0:49:43.719 --> 0:49:50.200 a bit impatient. But what I realized is that when 0:49:50.200 --> 0:49:52.040 they do growth, and I've seen you know, some much 0:49:52.080 --> 0:49:54.479 your pigeon peach trees and stuff, I know how big 0:49:54.480 --> 0:49:57.440 they tend to grow by time. Harvest rules around you know, 0:49:57.440 --> 0:49:59.279 you get all those different pods and you you know, 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:01.520 you put in the world keep put. You pick all 0:50:01.560 --> 0:50:05.600 the pods and you pry open the pods, and you know, 0:50:05.680 --> 0:50:08.959 you put in some more alliteration into the sentence. And 0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:13.920 you know, you get those peas out. Once those peas 0:50:14.040 --> 0:50:16.000 out to the pod and you put them in a pot. 0:50:18.160 --> 0:50:23.560 They're not potent enough to who would you over for 0:50:23.680 --> 0:50:27.560 more than one meal? You know, like you pick like 0:50:27.560 --> 0:50:30.120 a trees worth of peas in a pod, and you 0:50:30.160 --> 0:50:37.640 know that's like sometimes like half of a meal. And really, honestly, 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:40.959 respect to the people who are producing all our food 0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:45.920 right now, because I can't imagine having to be shelling 0:50:45.960 --> 0:50:49.239 peas all the time. It's kind of ridiculous. I mean 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:51.120 it can be fun, but I can't imagine doing it 0:50:51.160 --> 0:50:53.680 all day. I mean, workers work, right, it's gonna yeah, 0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:57.719 work as hell, we know this, but yeah, so I 0:50:57.760 --> 0:51:00.880 mean community gardens they're good. You know, they have you know, education, 0:51:00.960 --> 0:51:04.359 the build community. They provide outdoor activity and stuff. But 0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:10.160 you know, I think what comunity gardens, urban gardens and 0:51:10.160 --> 0:51:15.480 stuff need to do is find ways to um and 0:51:15.680 --> 0:51:17.799 this this isn't a disparate The work has been done, 0:51:17.840 --> 0:51:20.719 you know, like massive support. I'm doing that myself kind 0:51:20.719 --> 0:51:26.680 of thing. But we've got to, like, as the article argues, 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:29.040 we can't get caught up in the fluffing up of 0:51:29.080 --> 0:51:32.160 the reality for marketing purposes. You know, we need to 0:51:32.200 --> 0:51:35.719 look for ways that can actually um feed ourselves. That 0:51:35.760 --> 0:51:42.000 means getting into caloric foods that means um like like 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:46.320 dried beans, potatoes, fruit trees, that kind of thing, grains, nuts, 0:51:46.320 --> 0:51:53.319 all that jazz. And also connecting with farms outside of 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:57.400 the city, you know, local farms outside of the immediate 0:51:57.520 --> 0:52:03.880 urban landscape. Seeing what cooperatives can be developed that can 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:14.040 work aid each other mutually to build more potent capacity 0:52:14.320 --> 0:52:19.799 for food. What's on me? So, I mean, get in 0:52:19.840 --> 0:52:22.680 touch with the soil, you know, get this sign your face, 0:52:23.560 --> 0:52:29.000 but also think about what more we can do to 0:52:29.160 --> 0:52:36.120 sort of take this to the next level. And yeah, 0:52:37.080 --> 0:52:41.400 that is um that is what I believe could in 0:52:41.440 --> 0:52:48.440 fact happen here. This has happened here. Good. Yeah, it's 0:52:48.520 --> 0:52:51.120 nice to have a positive one of these. Yeah, we 0:52:51.160 --> 0:52:54.880 should do that more often. If all, if only we 0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:59.719 had the power power. Well, come back tomorrow when we'll 0:52:59.719 --> 0:53:02.920 be talking about another bad thing. And then abandoning you 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:11.040 to deal with your thoughts about it. Wow, we we try, 0:53:11.280 --> 0:53:13.480 we try, we do try. This is us trying well, 0:53:13.520 --> 0:53:19.359 this is us having st Andrew try. You're welcome, Thank you, 0:53:19.400 --> 0:53:22.479 thank you very much. This is a topic I wanted 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:24.960 to discuss for a long time in terms of because 0:53:25.120 --> 0:53:27.719 we get a lot of people talking about it like yeah, 0:53:27.920 --> 0:53:32.680 how you know and whatever like post collapse fantasy that 0:53:32.760 --> 0:53:36.680 you can imagine where we're able to kind of reconfigure society. 0:53:36.719 --> 0:53:39.560 How would you plan urban living? And you're like, well, yeah, 0:53:39.640 --> 0:53:41.879 there's there's a lot of actually really cool ideas for 0:53:42.840 --> 0:53:46.080 like keeping people close together can be a very ecological 0:53:46.080 --> 0:53:49.040 idea if you do it certain ways. It's just a 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:50.800 lot of the ways you've defaulted to over the past. 0:53:50.880 --> 0:53:56.799 Like really three years has made it not that with 0:53:56.920 --> 0:54:00.719 the invention of the car really really screwing us over. Um. 0:54:00.760 --> 0:54:03.560 So yeah, thank you so much for talking about urban 0:54:03.600 --> 0:54:06.920 living and super super blocks and all this kind of stuff. 0:54:07.640 --> 0:54:12.200 Where can where can people find more of your work 0:54:12.280 --> 0:54:18.000 in writing on the interwebs. You can find me on 0:54:18.080 --> 0:54:22.000 YouTube at seeing Andrewism, and you can find me on Twitter, 0:54:23.200 --> 0:54:26.480 which hopefully when you hear this, I am still not 0:54:26.560 --> 0:54:31.960 on at under School seeing true fantastic. Um, yeah you 0:54:32.320 --> 0:54:34.680 uh st Andrew just put together a really great episode 0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:41.879 about anti work stuff and the way that debacles has 0:54:41.960 --> 0:54:45.080 has happened and what we can learn from it and 0:54:45.160 --> 0:54:48.040 that kind of thing. Um and while you should still 0:54:48.080 --> 0:54:51.600 actually care about anti work um and yeah, so we're 0:54:51.640 --> 0:54:56.600 definitely recommend the anti work video for recent recent recent stuff. 0:54:57.680 --> 0:55:01.000 Let's see. Um, if you want a d your brain 0:55:01.080 --> 0:55:05.440 into the addiction driven social media algorithm, you can follow 0:55:05.520 --> 0:55:07.759 us on Twitter and Instagram. It happened here pot and 0:55:07.800 --> 0:55:12.600 cools on media and uh yeah, let's uh go think 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:16.080 about go think about microspaces and community gardens. That seems 0:55:16.080 --> 0:55:18.800 like a good a good way to dedicate your thoughts. 0:55:18.840 --> 0:55:23.000 Time and roll down the street smoking indow sipping that 0:55:23.040 --> 0:55:25.920 gin and juice while you still can on a bike 0:55:26.080 --> 0:55:31.920 on a personally used doing my moral judgements upon you 0:55:33.640 --> 0:55:39.359 before before the fascist anarchists take away your fees. Yeah. Look, 0:55:39.480 --> 0:55:43.040 if if if we can democratize military grade weapon rate 0:55:43.080 --> 0:55:46.319 the way the Ukrainians had, we can we can we 0:55:46.400 --> 0:55:49.719 can form neighborhoods that cannot be forced to live in 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:58.560 the traffic the auto industrial complex really reduce frifless air 0:55:58.600 --> 0:56:03.239 travel what fantasy otherwise will end up in a mad 0:56:03.320 --> 0:56:06.320 box wield and I mean wants that right, well you 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:30.240 know aspects of it. Yeah, alright, see what everybody podcast? 0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:38.080 Thank you? That is it is, It's true, It's true. 0:56:38.200 --> 0:56:50.120 Actually it could happen here. Posting to podcast is more 0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:52.680 or less the truth we have. We have Drake Robert 0:56:52.680 --> 0:56:55.200 out of bed at before they're cracking dat at a 0:56:55.280 --> 0:56:59.080 legend forty two am, um, and we're going to talk 0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:01.359 about actually something very fund I'm I'm I've been I've 0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:03.080 been wanting to talk about this for a long time 0:57:03.120 --> 0:57:05.360 because this is one I'm actually one of my favorite things. 0:57:06.719 --> 0:57:10.040 Um yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a 0:57:10.080 --> 0:57:13.160 bit of a bit of a little story regarding one 0:57:13.160 --> 0:57:16.200 of my act all time favorite events and topics. So 0:57:16.800 --> 0:57:20.920 back in like ten, there was this a cheesy little 0:57:21.040 --> 0:57:25.280 online university science show made by the Rochester Institute of 0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:29.720 Technology called Can You Imagine Um. The The idea was 0:57:29.760 --> 0:57:31.720 to highlight some of the cool and weird things at 0:57:31.720 --> 0:57:34.880 the University UM in part to promote the Imagine r 0:57:34.920 --> 0:57:37.800 i T Festival, which was like the school's annual like 0:57:37.840 --> 0:57:42.360 innovation and Creativity Festival thing that they put on. So yeah, 0:57:42.680 --> 0:57:45.440 today I want to talk specifically about episode three of 0:57:45.480 --> 0:57:49.680 the web series because the contents of which overlap with 0:57:49.920 --> 0:57:52.880 some of my like artistic interests UM and like just 0:57:52.960 --> 0:57:55.560 my love of illusions and paradox and I will kind 0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:57.440 of tie you into some topics we all we always 0:57:57.440 --> 0:58:00.320 discussed on the show. So yeah, episode three, one of 0:58:00.400 --> 0:58:04.920 probably probably the most interesting episode UM. Episode RNK, opens 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:08.440 with the hosts Kevin and Steph as they like stand 0:58:08.440 --> 0:58:12.560 awkwardly in a gloriously dated you like university film set 0:58:13.080 --> 0:58:15.520 like it's it's it's it's only twenties, it's only twenty thirteen, 0:58:15.520 --> 0:58:18.120 but it was like obviously like made in the nineties, 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:19.960 like like like like the set's like it's it's all. 0:58:19.960 --> 0:58:25.040 It's it's all very dated. What specifically are you? Oh, 0:58:25.200 --> 0:58:27.640 like they're they're like they're just like weird, like like 0:58:27.760 --> 0:58:32.040 weird like like dated science stuff on the walls, all 0:58:32.120 --> 0:58:35.560 the host of wearing like dorky orange T shirts like 0:58:35.560 --> 0:58:40.800 like over to over top of their regular clothes they have. Yeah, yeah, 0:58:40.840 --> 0:58:42.440 it's it's it's all. It's all that kind it's all 0:58:42.480 --> 0:58:45.280 that kind of stuff. So like dorky orange T shirts 0:58:45.320 --> 0:58:48.240 with the letters r i T for Roger Cusister Institute 0:58:48.240 --> 0:58:51.560 of Technology. Um, of course, because everything in this online 0:58:51.600 --> 0:58:55.000 video series is perfect. Kevin is wearing his shirt over 0:58:55.040 --> 0:58:58.240 top of like a button down. It's it's, it's, it's great. Um. 0:58:58.280 --> 0:59:00.880 The first fifty seconds of the video are taken up 0:59:00.880 --> 0:59:04.640 with like plugging the upcoming r A T Imagine Festival 0:59:05.400 --> 0:59:09.320 with a with a co host Steph beautifully stumbling over 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:12.919 her lines when she says the event's catchphrase, it's where 0:59:12.920 --> 0:59:16.200 the left brain and the right brain collide. And it's great. 0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:18.960 It's it's, it's, it's it's it's perfect. So after all 0:59:18.960 --> 0:59:21.960 the plugs and the vamping, the hosts get down to 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:24.560 the fun engineering feat and they'll be showing us today, 0:59:24.840 --> 0:59:28.360 which is a neat little architectural experiment a part of 0:59:28.480 --> 0:59:32.240 the r I T campus called the A Sharing and Stairwell, um, 0:59:32.280 --> 0:59:35.360 of course, named after the impossible staircases depicted in Dutch 0:59:35.440 --> 0:59:39.960 artist m c Escher's artwork. So the video cuts two 0:59:40.000 --> 0:59:42.640 from the little like sound stage they're filming in to 0:59:43.040 --> 0:59:48.040 this boring, white, seemingly typical stairwell, our host Kevin ascending 0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:51.280 a fight of the gray concrete stairs. Um explains that 0:59:51.400 --> 0:59:54.600 what located in Building seven of the campus. The stairwell 0:59:54.720 --> 0:59:58.960 was designed by Filipino architect Raphael Nelson Abegondo and was 0:59:59.000 --> 1:00:01.160 one of the first structure is put up when our 1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:04.400 I T moved their campus from downtown Rochester to the 1:00:04.400 --> 1:00:07.800 more suburban Henrietta. UM when when he's taking when he's 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:09.800 reaching the top of the stairs, he turns the quarter 1:00:10.160 --> 1:00:12.320 and then suddenly seems to appear at the bottom of 1:00:12.360 --> 1:00:14.840 the lower flight of stairs leading up to the landing 1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.080 that he just left from, all while continuing to talk 1:00:17.160 --> 1:00:21.640 about the architect behind this like kind of weird impossible feat. Um. So, 1:00:21.680 --> 1:00:23.840 as Kevin walks back up to camera, he says that 1:00:23.880 --> 1:00:27.320 the stairwell was built in the and it's been wowing 1:00:27.440 --> 1:00:31.240 ur I too students ever since. Um. It's it is 1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:33.360 very cool. It's like it's like you're like, okay, like 1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:36.800 you get you get the little like like you get 1:00:36.840 --> 1:00:40.080 the little architectural trick that they're doing. Um, but it's 1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:42.840 it is it is still pretty fun to see. Before 1:00:42.880 --> 1:00:45.440 episode three of Can You Imagine aired you could, you 1:00:45.440 --> 1:00:50.160 can already find a few articles on the school's UH 1:00:50.320 --> 1:00:54.200 website about the issuing stairwell, along with some like forum 1:00:54.240 --> 1:00:57.840 posts debating how the architecture in the stairwell works to 1:00:57.920 --> 1:01:01.040 like achieve the effect. Um all so floating around on 1:01:01.080 --> 1:01:03.880 YouTube was like a random segment of what looked like 1:01:03.920 --> 1:01:07.680 a like a PBS style late nineties documentary about the 1:01:07.680 --> 1:01:11.120 physics and architecture of the school and specifically the starewell 1:01:11.720 --> 1:01:14.840 that interviewed some like professors UM and some like architects 1:01:14.920 --> 1:01:18.160 and like of the symphysicist kind of discussing what like 1:01:18.360 --> 1:01:21.280 how to like bring paradox into the physical world. Yeah, 1:01:21.400 --> 1:01:23.040 but but but but around the time that Can't You 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:26.680 Imagine episode aired, the now like infamous r RT stairwell 1:01:26.800 --> 1:01:30.800 was mostly unknown, so like, even despite it being very interesting, 1:01:31.360 --> 1:01:33.680 no one really knew about it until this episode of 1:01:33.680 --> 1:01:37.360 this little web series aired. Um. The little web episode 1:01:37.480 --> 1:01:41.640 dedicates around half its time to interviewing students, uh and 1:01:41.800 --> 1:01:44.439 righteously random people at the university about if they even 1:01:44.480 --> 1:01:47.840 know about the starewell's existence, um, and if they do, 1:01:47.920 --> 1:01:51.360 what like experiences they have with like me messing around 1:01:51.400 --> 1:01:54.280 with like the looping architecture, because yeah, you can, you can, 1:01:54.280 --> 1:01:55.960 you know, you can play a lot of games with 1:01:56.000 --> 1:01:58.480 this type of with this type of design. Uh So. 1:01:58.640 --> 1:02:00.960 The rest of the short video like tries demonstrate the 1:02:01.040 --> 1:02:05.640 disorienting ascent down and descent back up via the camera 1:02:05.800 --> 1:02:08.040 in various ways, like you know, like human chains or 1:02:08.120 --> 1:02:12.440 holding hands around the weird like movies loop types staircase, 1:02:12.680 --> 1:02:14.960 and like passing objects back and forth in a circle 1:02:15.120 --> 1:02:19.200 while inside and around the enclosed stairwell. Um, there's one 1:02:19.320 --> 1:02:21.760 where Kevin walks around with a cup to show that 1:02:21.760 --> 1:02:24.600 the stairs aren't like clearly like heavily slanted, like the 1:02:24.640 --> 1:02:26.760 water stays pretty pretty level as he walks all the 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:28.480 way through, and we like we follow with him the 1:02:28.560 --> 1:02:31.960 entire time. Um So, yeah, Like the overall like nerdy 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:35.560 and low fi style of the University video match with 1:02:35.680 --> 1:02:38.680 like the insane feet of Architectural Illusion is a really 1:02:38.680 --> 1:02:40.720 fun mixed like it's like it's like it's it's it 1:02:40.800 --> 1:02:43.680 is very like surreal, but not totally on purpose, because 1:02:43.680 --> 1:02:47.680 it's just all of these like regular college students showing 1:02:47.720 --> 1:02:51.600 this like really cool architecture by this really good architect 1:02:51.880 --> 1:02:54.560 and you're like, oh, yeah, they're just so chill about it. 1:02:55.240 --> 1:02:58.400 Uh it is, it is, it is pretty fun. It's 1:02:58.400 --> 1:03:02.440 pretty fun. Um. After the third episode of the Imagine 1:03:02.440 --> 1:03:07.000 Our i T video was posted. Finally, the mind boggling 1:03:07.080 --> 1:03:10.520 looping staircase of building seven in of of Our T 1:03:10.680 --> 1:03:14.600 started to gain a lot of confused appreciation UM and 1:03:14.680 --> 1:03:17.840 the dor Key University Science Show went vital. People started 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:20.880 traveling from out of state even other countries to see 1:03:20.880 --> 1:03:25.560 the Asherian stairwell themselves and and film videos on social 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:28.000 media as as they walked through it. This this one 1:03:28.080 --> 1:03:30.320 video of like people traveling to a different country and 1:03:30.320 --> 1:03:32.800 they're like harassing like the school staff to try to 1:03:32.840 --> 1:03:34.480 like tell them where it is, and they're like, oh 1:03:34.520 --> 1:03:36.920 my god, you're still doing this because it was like 1:03:36.920 --> 1:03:38.720 because like this film was this video is like like 1:03:38.920 --> 1:03:41.520 years old, but it's it still happens. People still travel 1:03:41.560 --> 1:03:45.120 there to to specifically see it. UM. There is like 1:03:45.200 --> 1:03:48.920 tense online discussion and debate on how the Filipino architect 1:03:49.120 --> 1:03:51.880 Raphael Avugando was able to achieve the effect and what 1:03:51.960 --> 1:03:54.840 kind of other bizarre architectural experiments he may have worked on, 1:03:55.520 --> 1:03:57.600 because you can find his Facebook page and you can 1:03:57.600 --> 1:03:59.959 find some stuff about him, but he has not really 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:02.480 because like this this steroile is built in the late sixties, 1:04:02.680 --> 1:04:04.800 but you haven't you. So he even though he has 1:04:04.840 --> 1:04:07.040 an online presence, he's like he's like he's not like active, 1:04:07.400 --> 1:04:12.080 So it's unclear like what else he's actually been doing. Um, 1:04:12.120 --> 1:04:13.920 but I would I would, I would love to learn 1:04:13.920 --> 1:04:16.920 more about this architect and what else he's done, because this, 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:19.800 it is it is really rare to have these very small, 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:25.440 condensed but like high effort type like type builds and 1:04:25.520 --> 1:04:28.520 like the the existence of the whole thing. Posted some 1:04:28.600 --> 1:04:33.000 really interesting questions around how extremely clever paradoxical design can 1:04:33.040 --> 1:04:36.600 push the boundary of how we make assumptions about spatial physics, um, 1:04:36.600 --> 1:04:38.920 and how we visually and physically demonstrate things that we 1:04:39.000 --> 1:04:41.600 usually can only depict in two dimensions, right, Like you 1:04:41.640 --> 1:04:43.960 can you can easily depict the the issuing starwell in 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:47.000 two dimensions, but when you're scaling that up to three dimensions, 1:04:47.400 --> 1:04:49.440 it's obviously more work like like that that is that 1:04:49.520 --> 1:04:52.440 is part of the paradox um Plus, you know, it 1:04:52.480 --> 1:04:55.360 also demonstrates the importance of art and how ideas once 1:04:55.400 --> 1:04:58.919 thought impossible or merely optical illusions can actually with enough data, 1:04:58.920 --> 1:05:02.000 can an effort break into our real reality. Uh. If 1:05:02.000 --> 1:05:04.320 a brilliant architect can manage to build this physically and 1:05:04.400 --> 1:05:07.600 like logically impossible structure. What other types of things can 1:05:07.640 --> 1:05:11.000 we actually do as possible? The video now has like 1:05:11.040 --> 1:05:13.960 over a million views on its original upload UM and 1:05:14.080 --> 1:05:16.920 videos about the R I T. Stairwell have ranked up 1:05:16.920 --> 1:05:20.600 as many as like twenty five million views. Yeah it's 1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:24.360 pretty cool. Yeah, you know what else demonstrates the looping 1:05:24.480 --> 1:05:28.880 nature of time. Having to listen to all these ads 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:33.400 that we do. Ye, we we are, we are back. 1:05:33.480 --> 1:05:36.320 I've I've rounded the corner and we are back where 1:05:36.320 --> 1:05:42.640 we came from. Um because of the fun paradox of architecture. UM. 1:05:42.840 --> 1:05:48.160 The one, the one other thing I should mentioned before 1:05:48.200 --> 1:05:51.000 we continue on this episode is that the entire thing 1:05:51.040 --> 1:05:54.240 is fake. It's false. No way, not this time we 1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:57.840 created it. Not this time, No, not this time. It's 1:05:57.880 --> 1:06:01.960 totally made up because of it's it's a staircase that 1:06:02.040 --> 1:06:05.400 breaks the basic rules of movement in physics. Kevin walks 1:06:05.440 --> 1:06:08.560 up the stairs and teleports to the lower stairwell. Belief them, 1:06:09.120 --> 1:06:11.760 that's not that's not that's that's not an architectural allusion. 1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:16.080 It's called good video editing, an adope after effects. It's 1:06:15.480 --> 1:06:20.080 not like, no, you're you're really gonna believe a video 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:23.880 on the Internet and some well placed, falsified Internet posts 1:06:23.920 --> 1:06:28.320 over the very basic rules that governed our universe. But like, 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:31.680 oh boy, did it fool millions of people? Uh? And 1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:33.880 if I played my cards right, I hope most of 1:06:33.880 --> 1:06:38.400 our listeners until the last few seconds. Um yeah, And 1:06:38.800 --> 1:06:41.920 uh so the whole the whole thing was a was 1:06:42.800 --> 1:06:47.280 a student like film and art project around around building 1:06:47.320 --> 1:06:51.800 a modern myth. Um the because it's sure, it's sure 1:06:51.920 --> 1:06:56.600 is interesting how good storytelling can overrule obvious logical processes. 1:06:57.680 --> 1:06:59.920 The tale of the a Sharan Stairwell is one of 1:07:00.120 --> 1:07:02.880 favorite case studies and how disincribation spreads and it is 1:07:02.920 --> 1:07:06.280 believed while all in defiance of the basic rules of reality, 1:07:06.280 --> 1:07:08.320 because it's not a matter of what facts are true, 1:07:08.520 --> 1:07:11.200 it's about what facts are compelling. And the idea of 1:07:11.240 --> 1:07:15.560 a logically impossible staircase being built by a brilliant Filipino 1:07:15.640 --> 1:07:19.760 architect is more interesting than it being someone's weird and 1:07:19.800 --> 1:07:25.240 disinformation art project. Um there. So yeah, Like I want 1:07:25.240 --> 1:07:27.680 to say, like how what what were you guys thinking 1:07:27.720 --> 1:07:31.160 as I was explaining the Issurian stairwell, Like where did 1:07:31.160 --> 1:07:33.200 you see this? Going Okay, So I had in the 1:07:33.240 --> 1:07:36.400 back of my head, okay, we should we should mention this. 1:07:36.920 --> 1:07:41.480 Garrison has been hyping up this episode for like I 1:07:41.520 --> 1:07:47.720 don't even a pretty amount of time. Nothing. Yeah, and 1:07:47.760 --> 1:07:52.520 there's a staircase and I'm like what it's like my 1:07:52.720 --> 1:07:55.800 my brain my brain started going because he said and 1:07:55.880 --> 1:08:00.680 I was like, my like my encounters just see brain 1:08:00.760 --> 1:08:04.120 flicked on and I was like, wait a second, all time, 1:08:04.240 --> 1:08:08.480 is this like some kind of like weird like we've 1:08:08.520 --> 1:08:11.720 redesigned the college campuses so they stop people stopped taking 1:08:11.720 --> 1:08:15.600 the dean hostage, a thing that used to happen constantly 1:08:15.600 --> 1:08:18.040 and with all my favorite party about this would happen 1:08:18.120 --> 1:08:20.640 constantly and you'd get New York Times articles calling it 1:08:20.680 --> 1:08:26.960 non violent. Great. Yeah, so yeah it was that was 1:08:27.120 --> 1:08:29.840 I was. Yeah, I spent more mental energy that I 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:32.040 probably should have tried to figure out how it worked out, 1:08:32.280 --> 1:08:34.280 Like I don't know, maybe they just made it like 1:08:34.680 --> 1:08:38.960 if they just made it Acus Razor, it's obviously yeah, 1:08:39.040 --> 1:08:40.720 I mean I was. I was seen the like I 1:08:40.760 --> 1:08:42.599 was in the like, okay, so they built a staircase, 1:08:42.640 --> 1:08:46.320 they built another the viewers cannot see my fingers. It 1:08:46.400 --> 1:08:50.280 was like a staircase. It doesn't tell. It was like, 1:08:50.320 --> 1:08:53.000 it was like, but you can't find videos of people 1:08:53.040 --> 1:08:55.439 traveling to the school to see if it's real, and 1:08:55.520 --> 1:08:58.000 they try it and they're so disappointed. They're like, oh, yeah, 1:08:58.080 --> 1:09:01.599 it's it's no, it's just stairs. It doesn't it doesn't. Yeah, 1:09:01.600 --> 1:09:03.040 it's is importing in a lot of ways because it's 1:09:03.080 --> 1:09:04.640 it's not even like a thing where like there's like 1:09:04.640 --> 1:09:07.800 another back staircase that you walk down. Then again, it's 1:09:07.800 --> 1:09:10.639 just it's just nothing. It's just stairs. I was hoping 1:09:10.680 --> 1:09:14.559 there was like actual clever is No, it's just it's 1:09:14.600 --> 1:09:21.360 not really, it's it's just. It was that meme where 1:09:21.360 --> 1:09:25.040 all the math doesn't add up in the person what 1:09:25.200 --> 1:09:28.439 is happening? I was like, all right, Garrison, you got 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:31.439 us here. You made Robert get up before noon. What 1:09:31.720 --> 1:09:35.639 is happening? Well, the reason, the real reason I got 1:09:35.680 --> 1:09:38.919 up before I got Robert up before noon is because actually, 1:09:39.040 --> 1:09:43.080 UM have scheduled an interview with the creator of the 1:09:43.080 --> 1:09:47.320 Assarian stairwell, the actual one be like the online art 1:09:47.560 --> 1:09:52.080 project and building a modern myth idea UM, which we 1:09:52.160 --> 1:09:55.760 are now going to segue into. So yeah, what what 1:09:55.880 --> 1:10:00.679 follows is us talking with the creator of the Usherian 1:10:00.800 --> 1:10:05.880 Stairwell Project. Hello, we are we are back from our 1:10:05.920 --> 1:10:10.400 probably very very brief break. Um and with me along 1:10:10.439 --> 1:10:15.320 with Robert and Chris and Sophie is Uh Michael, the 1:10:15.360 --> 1:10:20.360 creator of the Sharian Stairwell Project and the Building the 1:10:20.439 --> 1:10:27.080 Modern Myths project. Hello greetings, Thank you so much for 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:30.519 joining us to talk about one of my one of 1:10:30.560 --> 1:10:33.760 my favorite things actually is which is here a little 1:10:33.800 --> 1:10:37.479 to us to project? Um yeah, I've I've I've been 1:10:37.479 --> 1:10:39.400 a fan of this for a long time and found 1:10:39.400 --> 1:10:43.160 it to be really compelling and interesting. Um and I 1:10:43.240 --> 1:10:46.520 so I just walked through Robert and Chris and Sophie 1:10:47.520 --> 1:10:50.400 what what it what it was, but from the perspective 1:10:50.520 --> 1:10:54.360 of it being true for like for the good fifteen minutes, 1:10:54.439 --> 1:10:56.880 I was I was episode was going was going through 1:10:57.240 --> 1:11:00.479 talking about it as if it were completely real, but 1:11:00.680 --> 1:11:04.880 curious to hear how you did that it was. It 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:09.000 was slightly baffling because again we were told nothing, and 1:11:09.000 --> 1:11:11.120 then what we got is Garrison is talking about a 1:11:11.160 --> 1:11:13.320 YouTube video about an architecture thing, and I was like, 1:11:13.479 --> 1:11:21.479 what here? Yeah, and then and then then talking about 1:11:21.479 --> 1:11:23.600 how oh yeah, and I guess one more thing is 1:11:23.640 --> 1:11:26.400 that it's actually fake, um, and it's part of this whole, 1:11:26.479 --> 1:11:29.040 this whole thing. So yeah, I would I would love 1:11:29.080 --> 1:11:32.479 to talk to you about both like how how you 1:11:32.560 --> 1:11:35.280 like logistically like made the project, but also like the 1:11:35.400 --> 1:11:39.760 underlying you're undering thoughts that like inspired you to do 1:11:39.760 --> 1:11:42.200 it in the first place, and then like retrospected now 1:11:42.240 --> 1:11:44.559 almost like ten years later, like how do you view 1:11:44.600 --> 1:11:47.000 the project as like happening you know, right before like 1:11:47.120 --> 1:11:52.920 the peak of online disinformation? Um? Right. So but first 1:11:52.920 --> 1:11:54.920 of all, I I just think we should probably start 1:11:54.920 --> 1:11:56.920 start at the beginning, like what what was your inspirations 1:11:57.240 --> 1:12:00.360 for this type of like online like very like it 1:12:00.400 --> 1:12:02.720 seems it seems it seems built to go viral in 1:12:02.800 --> 1:12:07.240 a lot of ways. Yes, exactly. So this was around 1:12:07.360 --> 1:12:11.320 twenty eleven, I guess was when I first got the idea. 1:12:12.200 --> 1:12:14.800 It was for my master's thesis, my m f A 1:12:15.000 --> 1:12:20.960 for film at Rochester r I t and UM. The 1:12:21.040 --> 1:12:25.800 idea actually began from this like deep anxiety about how 1:12:25.800 --> 1:12:32.320 to discern fact from fiction? UM. At the time, like 1:12:32.360 --> 1:12:36.080 I came into film school like really into like realism 1:12:36.120 --> 1:12:41.160 in films like Romanian New Wave mckel hanaka dar Dan Brothers, 1:12:41.200 --> 1:12:43.920 like these are filmmakers who are like they're sort of 1:12:43.960 --> 1:12:47.680 like the modern day version of Italian nero neo realism, 1:12:47.960 --> 1:12:51.400 and they're trying to like depict like these um reality 1:12:51.479 --> 1:12:53.559 as it is. I wanted to like learn how to 1:12:53.560 --> 1:12:57.519 make those types of films um, so over like with 1:12:57.560 --> 1:13:00.800 each year, that's what I tried to get better. And 1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:05.760 the more I tried to do that, UM well, like 1:13:05.800 --> 1:13:08.479 a number of things were happening around that time. Right 1:13:08.960 --> 1:13:12.880 in class, they showed us that these mockumentaries called No Lies, 1:13:12.960 --> 1:13:15.360 which was made in nineteen seventy three by this guy 1:13:15.400 --> 1:13:19.599 called Mitchell Black actually won a student oscar at the time, 1:13:19.680 --> 1:13:23.840 and uh Delusions and Modern Primitivism two thousand one by 1:13:23.880 --> 1:13:28.080 this guy named Daniel Loughlin, UM and these Like I 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:31.840 was like floored because I thought they were real, like 1:13:32.000 --> 1:13:38.800 real documentaries and um and it bothered me, like our 1:13:38.920 --> 1:13:41.800 teacher still this afterwards that these were actually scripted works 1:13:41.800 --> 1:13:45.160 of fiction with like really really good actors, and it 1:13:45.560 --> 1:13:49.280 like I went into kind of like existential crisis mode afterwards, 1:13:49.320 --> 1:13:52.920 like how do I even discern what's true from what's 1:13:52.960 --> 1:13:55.439 not if I got fooled by these things? Especially, like 1:13:55.680 --> 1:13:59.120 that's like my concentration. That's what I've been studying for years, 1:13:59.160 --> 1:14:01.920 and even I was not even able to tell that 1:14:02.000 --> 1:14:05.680 they were fake. Right, There was that going on, And 1:14:05.720 --> 1:14:08.600 then there was like smartphones were becoming a thing, Like 1:14:08.640 --> 1:14:12.360 I just looked it up. Smartphones didn't start out out 1:14:12.400 --> 1:14:16.479 selling flip phones still, so around this time, like it 1:14:16.520 --> 1:14:19.479 was becoming a thing where everyone would have the Internet 1:14:19.520 --> 1:14:21.800 in their pockets. So I guess there was that anxiety 1:14:21.840 --> 1:14:26.360 going on trying to think about, um, um, how we're 1:14:26.479 --> 1:14:31.400 starting to function and how we're how I remember when 1:14:31.400 --> 1:14:36.240 I proposed my thesis did the thesis committee, I um, 1:14:36.320 --> 1:14:41.639 one of the things that I was telling them was, um, 1:14:41.680 --> 1:14:44.559 I have this worry about how reliant we are on 1:14:44.640 --> 1:14:48.320 the Internet to determine what's true and what's not. And 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:51.519 this is like like my professors found my concerns like 1:14:51.600 --> 1:14:54.960 really abstract and theoretical, Like why do you even care? 1:14:55.479 --> 1:14:59.320 Because this? Right? Like why did you about fact? Then ficture? 1:14:59.320 --> 1:15:02.760 It wasn't like fake news. That wasn't even a yeah, 1:15:03.040 --> 1:15:05.360 it wasn't. It didn't become part of the everyday lexicon, 1:15:05.439 --> 1:15:08.920 like you said, until twenty six when Trump started throwing 1:15:08.920 --> 1:15:12.920 that term around, and suddenly we hear about it every day. 1:15:13.280 --> 1:15:16.280 Um so there was that going on. Trayvon Martin was 1:15:16.320 --> 1:15:19.640 a thing and for the first time, like nationally, you 1:15:19.680 --> 1:15:24.160 could see like disinformation like on you know, just like 1:15:24.280 --> 1:15:29.759 exaggerated versions of different different accounts from like polarizing sides. 1:15:30.600 --> 1:15:34.839 So all that was going on, and so I wanted 1:15:34.840 --> 1:15:39.879 to it was it was like this film project was about, 1:15:40.560 --> 1:15:44.520 um trying to take something that was Are you familiar 1:15:44.600 --> 1:15:47.720 with with the difference between like a priori knowledge and 1:15:47.800 --> 1:15:54.000 a posteriori knowledge? Yeah? Okay, so so so like you know, 1:15:54.080 --> 1:15:57.120 for for anyone who might be listening that doesn't really 1:15:57.160 --> 1:16:01.800 know the exact difference. A priori edge is the type 1:16:01.800 --> 1:16:04.920 of knowledge that you can have without needing to make 1:16:04.960 --> 1:16:08.400 observations or conduct experiments or look at surveys or do 1:16:08.439 --> 1:16:11.000 any research of any any kind. Is a sort of 1:16:11.040 --> 1:16:14.720 knowledge you can know just by reasoning it out, but 1:16:14.880 --> 1:16:18.360 just by sitting in a room by yourself in the dark, 1:16:18.439 --> 1:16:21.479 you could figure things out. This is the sort this 1:16:21.560 --> 1:16:24.640 is a priori knowledge. Um So, for an example of 1:16:24.640 --> 1:16:28.639 that is like knowing that all bachelors are unmarried, right, 1:16:28.840 --> 1:16:32.479 or all triangles of three sides, that's a priori knowledge. 1:16:32.600 --> 1:16:38.000 An example of oppos stereori knowledge UM is something that 1:16:38.080 --> 1:16:42.240 you find out through observation or you need using one 1:16:42.400 --> 1:16:46.000 or more of your five senses. Right, like Joe Biden 1:16:46.120 --> 1:16:49.599 is the President of the United States. Um, the masses 1:16:49.760 --> 1:16:52.160 of Mars is six point four one seven one times 1:16:52.200 --> 1:16:54.920 ten to the twentys. You actually have to go out 1:16:54.920 --> 1:16:58.120 into the world and conduct surveys or do research. So 1:16:58.160 --> 1:17:01.799 that's opposterior knowledge. So the idea was to take something 1:17:02.840 --> 1:17:07.719 that was a priori false, something that could that could 1:17:07.800 --> 1:17:12.559 um be disproven by reason alone, Like you wouldn't have 1:17:12.920 --> 1:17:16.040 You wouldn't need to do any research in order to 1:17:16.040 --> 1:17:18.120 to know that it was false. You'd simply had to 1:17:18.200 --> 1:17:23.000 reflect on it and um think about it. Uh. So 1:17:23.320 --> 1:17:25.559 we could have picked anything, right, we could have. We 1:17:25.640 --> 1:17:28.439 could have said made up like a fake news report 1:17:28.520 --> 1:17:33.000 that leaves mathematicians that m I t having invented like 1:17:33.040 --> 1:17:37.240 a square with five sides something like that. You know, Um, 1:17:37.360 --> 1:17:39.960 I remember that weekend up there and sm now had 1:17:40.000 --> 1:17:44.240 this sketch. I think it was like, um, forget who 1:17:44.320 --> 1:17:46.439 it was. It might have been Kevin Nealon or something 1:17:46.479 --> 1:17:50.519 like that. The report was like scientists and mathematicians have 1:17:50.600 --> 1:17:54.519 discovered the new number. The number exists between five and six, 1:17:54.560 --> 1:17:56.920 and they're calling it the numbers spleen, you know, something 1:17:56.960 --> 1:18:02.360 like that, which is like just impossible. So, um, so 1:18:02.479 --> 1:18:05.519 come up with something that could be disproven by reason 1:18:05.560 --> 1:18:09.439 alone and at the same time surrounded with this wealth 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:15.720 of online information um supporting its veracity. So, like you know, 1:18:15.760 --> 1:18:18.439 it was kind of a social experiment. So I was like, 1:18:18.560 --> 1:18:22.479 have we are we so far beyond rational thinking that 1:18:22.760 --> 1:18:27.719 even something that can be disproven a priori people would believe. 1:18:27.760 --> 1:18:30.160 And it was like, we didn't really know the answer 1:18:30.200 --> 1:18:32.799 to that, but we were going to commit to creating 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:36.320 this thing as though it was real and but which 1:18:36.439 --> 1:18:40.240 was like logically impossible. So in a way it anticipated 1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:45.559 the age of like this information because it wasn't just yeah. 1:18:46.360 --> 1:18:48.080 The thing I kind of alluded to in my little 1:18:48.080 --> 1:18:50.000 scripted portion is that like, yeah, it wasn't just the 1:18:50.040 --> 1:18:52.479 YouTube video. There was also this extra online content that 1:18:52.560 --> 1:18:57.240 was created of whis yeah. Yes, like there was you 1:18:57.240 --> 1:18:59.519 can find like articles, forum posts, all this kind of 1:18:59.520 --> 1:19:01.680 stuff like like like if yeah, like so if you 1:19:01.720 --> 1:19:04.040 could look into it more and find these other things, 1:19:04.280 --> 1:19:06.960 but it's still contradicts the basic logical processes that we 1:19:07.000 --> 1:19:10.040 can use to discern what is real what is not, 1:19:10.360 --> 1:19:13.120 um interms of like yeah, in terms of like believing 1:19:13.120 --> 1:19:15.200 in a five studed square, like no, that's not what 1:19:15.479 --> 1:19:18.599 that that's that's not how like physics and like spatial 1:19:18.920 --> 1:19:23.360 like the spatial dimensions work. Um so yeah. And then 1:19:23.479 --> 1:19:25.960 in terms of all the extra material you filmed for it, 1:19:26.360 --> 1:19:28.200 there was like there was like I think I read 1:19:28.240 --> 1:19:32.479 around like nine hours of documentary footage. Was also a 1:19:32.520 --> 1:19:35.320 lot like a lot of footage, but it was only 1:19:35.400 --> 1:19:39.360 made into like probably a thirty minute thing. Um. We 1:19:39.479 --> 1:19:41.960 got our friends, like at the very very beginning, we 1:19:42.000 --> 1:19:43.720 got our friends to play along with it. Like so 1:19:43.760 --> 1:19:47.200 whenever you see posts about this, just comment like it's real, Like, yeah, 1:19:47.280 --> 1:19:50.640 I was there. It was really great. And um, eventually 1:19:51.240 --> 1:19:55.000 people would actually start visiting this starewell like from all over, 1:19:55.640 --> 1:19:58.559 like from Canada. They crossed the border to get there 1:19:58.560 --> 1:20:02.080 because it's in upstate New York, right. Um. And I 1:20:02.120 --> 1:20:05.720 actually ran into a couple from India who happened to 1:20:05.760 --> 1:20:08.000 be visiting visiting New York and they were like, since 1:20:08.000 --> 1:20:10.080 we're here, we'd like to see this stare Well that 1:20:10.200 --> 1:20:14.559 sort of thing. Um. Oh no, I know, I felt 1:20:14.600 --> 1:20:16.439 really bad for a lot of the visitors. So we 1:20:16.479 --> 1:20:19.200 actually had to come up with souvenirs so that they 1:20:19.240 --> 1:20:22.600 wouldn't leave empty handed, right, So we made fake We 1:20:22.640 --> 1:20:24.760 made postcards like saying I've been to the Share and 1:20:24.800 --> 1:20:30.120 Stailes and stuff like that program and um, well happened 1:20:30.200 --> 1:20:32.080 and the way we explained it, so a lot of 1:20:32.080 --> 1:20:34.479 people were really mad actually, you know, as you can 1:20:34.520 --> 1:20:38.639 imagine when they got there, but after um we would 1:20:38.680 --> 1:20:41.879 explain what we were doing of them with the project, 1:20:42.080 --> 1:20:44.639 Like a lot of them actually like started playing along 1:20:44.680 --> 1:20:46.479 and thought it was really cool, and they went home 1:20:46.840 --> 1:20:49.280 with their souvenirs and told their friends that they just 1:20:49.320 --> 1:20:51.519 saw this amazing thing. So you know, it kind of 1:20:51.560 --> 1:20:54.640 built that way for a little bit. Yeah, it's like 1:20:54.680 --> 1:20:58.680 telling kids that Santa isn't real exactly, and some of 1:20:58.680 --> 1:21:00.479 them will be like, play along with the okay, cool, 1:21:00.520 --> 1:21:02.160 this means I can play along with the myth to 1:21:02.200 --> 1:21:04.519 help you other kids happy. And some of them will 1:21:04.560 --> 1:21:08.160 be like, what, oh no, my entire reality is broken. 1:21:10.360 --> 1:21:12.800 And when you find out, is your trying to like 1:21:12.880 --> 1:21:16.000 pass it on exactly that. So a lot of that 1:21:16.160 --> 1:21:20.559 was going on, Like Shock the basketball player posted about 1:21:20.600 --> 1:21:22.920 it at some point, Joe Rogan talked about it on 1:21:23.000 --> 1:21:26.800 his podcast. They got kind of crazy. Wait wait, did 1:21:27.040 --> 1:21:31.840 did Joe Rogan know it wasn't real? Um, it's funny. 1:21:31.840 --> 1:21:33.599 You should see the clip of him doing it, because 1:21:33.640 --> 1:21:35.679 he was like it was him And who's the other guy, 1:21:35.880 --> 1:21:39.080 Bert Kreiser or something. Anyway, they were arguing about whether 1:21:39.160 --> 1:21:40.600 or not was real. The other guy was like, no, 1:21:40.680 --> 1:21:44.200 it's real. It's so real. Was like, all you guys 1:21:44.200 --> 1:21:47.080 are fucking idiots. You're all idiots. Let's google it right now. 1:21:47.520 --> 1:21:50.360 They google it and they look up an article and 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:54.479 Joe Joe Rogan's like, Okay, yeah, alright, it's still fucking stupid. 1:21:54.479 --> 1:22:00.680 The guy who built it is fucking you know, I 1:22:01.080 --> 1:22:02.920 you have You have no idea how happy you have 1:22:02.960 --> 1:22:05.640 made me because I in my in my research, but 1:22:05.720 --> 1:22:08.120 like I have like read your thesis. I read all 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:11.080 the lots of articles about this. I did not come 1:22:11.120 --> 1:22:16.439 across the Rogan clip, but I would right. Um, it's 1:22:16.479 --> 1:22:18.800 like way back right, it's like ten years ago. It's 1:22:18.880 --> 1:22:20.559 like a lot of stuff to dig through and I 1:22:20.600 --> 1:22:24.760 found it though. Again, Um, so I'd like to kind 1:22:24.760 --> 1:22:26.639 of go into like the logistics of like actually doing 1:22:26.680 --> 1:22:28.559 this in terms of like creating all the fake like 1:22:28.600 --> 1:22:31.840 web content, but also like you know, dreaming up this 1:22:31.920 --> 1:22:35.360 like family friendly science show that's made by our I T. 1:22:35.560 --> 1:22:37.600 And like how like you know the thing between like 1:22:37.680 --> 1:22:41.120 naturalism and realism and making it like playing not trying 1:22:41.120 --> 1:22:44.960 to replicate reality, but playing as if it were reality, 1:22:45.000 --> 1:22:49.160 and how those are two different things. Um. Yeah, well 1:22:49.160 --> 1:22:52.280 what we wanted to make it as real as possible 1:22:52.320 --> 1:22:56.080 and like that's what I was I'd been studying anyway, 1:22:56.120 --> 1:23:01.080 but in like a dramatic context, like making narrative films. Um. 1:23:01.920 --> 1:23:05.800 And the idea was to, um, there's this event at 1:23:05.920 --> 1:23:08.080 r I T every year which gets a lot of people, 1:23:08.200 --> 1:23:11.280 like thirty thousand people. Y'r go to the campus and 1:23:11.320 --> 1:23:15.760 look at like, um these uh whatever the students are 1:23:15.800 --> 1:23:18.360 working on. It's kind of like a mini like festival 1:23:18.400 --> 1:23:21.120 type of thing. Well, not many is pretty big, So 1:23:21.200 --> 1:23:24.639 we we wanted to make a video for that event. Um. 1:23:24.760 --> 1:23:27.200 As though we were promoting the event, Hey, come see 1:23:27.200 --> 1:23:29.720 the Assarian Stairwell when you get your r I T 1:23:30.760 --> 1:23:33.519 um and you know you normally for these like for 1:23:33.600 --> 1:23:36.519 these for these events, if you have a booth or something, 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.320 you'll see reservations and you'll see like four people reserve 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:42.519 fifteen people. Like we were like started getting nervous and 1:23:42.600 --> 1:23:45.040 we found out. We got a sense that this was 1:23:45.040 --> 1:23:47.599 gonna be big because like when I looked at like 1:23:47.640 --> 1:23:52.120 the reservations for like our non existent starewell there were 1:23:52.160 --> 1:23:59.200 like one thousand plus visitors. Um. Yeah, I still remember 1:23:59.280 --> 1:24:02.480 like going a campus that day at the festival Saturday, 1:24:02.680 --> 1:24:05.160 and like my friend Ira like comes up to me. 1:24:05.200 --> 1:24:07.720 He is like, Mike, people want to kill you, like 1:24:08.160 --> 1:24:09.960 cover get over here, and I was like trying to 1:24:10.000 --> 1:24:14.360 not show my faith anyway. Yeah that's what. So what 1:24:15.080 --> 1:24:17.320 the way, Like a lot of the legs of the 1:24:17.360 --> 1:24:20.120 project was just like word of mouth, I guess, and 1:24:20.200 --> 1:24:23.519 we actually ran out of money. Um, we didn't get 1:24:23.560 --> 1:24:26.519 to do like the web stuff on the scale that 1:24:26.560 --> 1:24:29.160 we wanted to, But it turned out that we didn't 1:24:29.160 --> 1:24:32.679 even have to. In fact, like within a few days 1:24:33.360 --> 1:24:36.160 or maybe a week or something after the original video 1:24:36.240 --> 1:24:40.360 came out, I posted a video explaining that it's a myth. 1:24:40.520 --> 1:24:42.439 Like I posted it and I was like, all right, 1:24:42.479 --> 1:24:44.800 I was a fun ride. I was gonna be over 1:24:44.840 --> 1:24:50.120 because here's a video of me explaining everything right, And 1:24:50.200 --> 1:24:53.200 people still didn't believe it. People were saying that my 1:24:53.200 --> 1:24:56.320 my video explaining was fake, that was a conspiracy. Like 1:24:56.360 --> 1:25:02.040 people were, you know, like the it's the actual myth 1:25:02.040 --> 1:25:04.320 of it. Yeah, because it is. It is so much 1:25:05.000 --> 1:25:06.960 for a lot of people, they thought that is more 1:25:06.960 --> 1:25:09.680 compelling than the idea that it is this like you know, 1:25:10.640 --> 1:25:12.960 project around what is real what's not. They've got so 1:25:13.000 --> 1:25:16.679 invested in the reality of it that they'll explain away 1:25:16.720 --> 1:25:24.080 every other explanation, right right, um, exactly like my I 1:25:24.120 --> 1:25:27.400 had a teacher at Rutgers where I did my undergrad 1:25:27.600 --> 1:25:30.240 to Maudlin. He used to say that, you know, there's 1:25:30.240 --> 1:25:34.519 two types of thinking. There's reasoning and there's rationalizing. Reasoning 1:25:34.560 --> 1:25:37.720 is when when you start from a place of ignorance 1:25:37.960 --> 1:25:40.920 and you um, look at the best evidence and the 1:25:40.960 --> 1:25:44.280 best arguments you can find and follow that through to 1:25:44.600 --> 1:25:48.479 the you know, the rational conclusion. Rationalizing is when you 1:25:48.520 --> 1:25:52.800 start from what you want to believe and working backwards 1:25:52.800 --> 1:25:57.920 and looking for you know, right, looking for the arguments 1:25:57.960 --> 1:26:00.280 that are already support what you're saying. There. There was 1:26:00.320 --> 1:26:03.599 a lot of a lot of rationalizing going on. I 1:26:03.600 --> 1:26:09.880 guess people wanted to believe it. Yeah, for for the 1:26:10.479 --> 1:26:12.679 how much how many people in this because they assume 1:26:12.760 --> 1:26:14.559 for all of the filming like like everyone was all 1:26:14.600 --> 1:26:16.400 like in on it. But yeah, you know, there's a 1:26:16.400 --> 1:26:17.880 whole bunch of great stuff around like all of like 1:26:17.960 --> 1:26:19.880 the Men on the Street segments are are are like 1:26:19.960 --> 1:26:23.320 perfectly done in terms of like people like just acting 1:26:23.360 --> 1:26:27.240 like regular university students, like talking about the stairwell and 1:26:27.280 --> 1:26:29.320 like how they've got like lost and then they're like 1:26:29.360 --> 1:26:32.679 looping around in a circle. Um. And all the segments 1:26:32.720 --> 1:26:35.519 with you with um like inside the stairwell with all 1:26:35.600 --> 1:26:37.960 like the very like the very clever thing. I assume 1:26:38.000 --> 1:26:41.800 you're using stuff like Adobe after effects. Um. And yeah, 1:26:42.000 --> 1:26:45.200 it's it is played. It's played so well like it's 1:26:45.400 --> 1:26:46.840 it's I think part of the part of why it's 1:26:46.880 --> 1:26:50.080 so successful is that it's not filmed like you would 1:26:50.120 --> 1:26:52.680 film something too high like like like for a lot 1:26:52.680 --> 1:26:54.080 of films when they like you want to do like 1:26:54.080 --> 1:26:56.680 like you know like like ah the term is like 1:26:56.760 --> 1:26:58.479 a wonner where they had like one long shot and 1:26:58.479 --> 1:27:01.080 then they like hide the transitions in between. You can 1:27:01.120 --> 1:27:03.000 you can obviously tell like they're filming it to make 1:27:03.000 --> 1:27:05.880 these transitions work versus the way you film. This is 1:27:06.080 --> 1:27:08.920 just how people would film it if they were filming 1:27:08.920 --> 1:27:12.360 this four reel um and they tell that, and it's 1:27:12.439 --> 1:27:16.519 it is so carefully done because it's not trying to 1:27:16.640 --> 1:27:19.280 be something it is. It is just being the thing 1:27:19.400 --> 1:27:22.519 so earnestly in terms of like how how the actors 1:27:22.520 --> 1:27:26.160 like stumble over their lines and the like the opening segment, um, 1:27:26.240 --> 1:27:28.439 like the aesthetics of like all of like the title 1:27:28.479 --> 1:27:31.599 cards and everything is just so it has this has 1:27:31.640 --> 1:27:34.880 this like aura of earnestness, which I think helps sells 1:27:34.960 --> 1:27:39.880 the whole project so so much. Yeah. Yeah, actually, speaking 1:27:39.920 --> 1:27:42.920 of the show and like the cheesy title cards and stuff, 1:27:43.439 --> 1:27:46.240 my girlfriend at the time was a producer for this 1:27:46.320 --> 1:27:50.800 show called this local show called Homework Cloudline and where 1:27:50.880 --> 1:27:53.639 kids call in with their homework and they answer questions 1:27:53.640 --> 1:27:56.639 about it. I studied the ship out of that show, 1:27:56.960 --> 1:27:59.800 just looking at how they built the sets and how 1:27:59.840 --> 1:28:03.479 it cheesy and how awkward like the hosts were, because 1:28:03.520 --> 1:28:05.160 a lot of it was like a lot of the 1:28:05.200 --> 1:28:08.320 realism I think of it is just um, yeah, the 1:28:08.400 --> 1:28:12.640 awkwardness of the people. How it's not um, it's not 1:28:12.720 --> 1:28:15.679 really meant to be and and like like the best 1:28:16.280 --> 1:28:20.360 the most convincing untruths, right is a combination of fact 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:24.240 and fiction and you know a lot of and blending 1:28:24.240 --> 1:28:28.320 in the actors with real people you know, in in 1:28:28.320 --> 1:28:32.040 in the in the actual video stuff like that. It's like, yeah, 1:28:32.040 --> 1:28:37.799 like it comes goes pretty viral. Um, you like pretty 1:28:37.840 --> 1:28:40.960 quick create a very easy explanation for No, it's not 1:28:41.000 --> 1:28:43.080 it's not real. It started this project. People still believe 1:28:43.080 --> 1:28:45.400 it for years and years. Um. As kind of the 1:28:45.439 --> 1:28:48.519 decade progresses and we go into like the era of 1:28:48.560 --> 1:28:51.160 dis information, everyone starts getting shown into their pockets. Everyone 1:28:51.200 --> 1:28:53.320 has Facebook with them wherever they go, everyone has Twitter 1:28:53.360 --> 1:28:55.400 with them wherever they go. How is kind of your 1:28:55.439 --> 1:28:58.000 views on like the ethics of the project and what 1:28:58.120 --> 1:29:00.640 it demonstrates in terms of like a case study and 1:29:00.640 --> 1:29:02.559 like a social experiment, Like how has that changed over 1:29:02.560 --> 1:29:04.800 the years from like you like ten years ago when 1:29:04.840 --> 1:29:08.120 you're drimming this up to you now after you know, 1:29:08.200 --> 1:29:10.880 we've had stuff like you know like January six and 1:29:11.080 --> 1:29:13.000 two and on. You know, all these types of things 1:29:13.160 --> 1:29:15.400 which I feel like if are almost like foreshadowed in 1:29:15.400 --> 1:29:18.240 this in this weird way by showing how successful your 1:29:18.280 --> 1:29:23.840 little project is. Yeah, I'm so a lot of a 1:29:23.880 --> 1:29:28.439 lot of the criticisms that it was faced from the 1:29:28.479 --> 1:29:31.680 get go, like from R. I. T. Professors, even it's 1:29:31.720 --> 1:29:34.400 still facing right now. Like it's still the type of 1:29:34.439 --> 1:29:38.960 thing people bring up, which is essentially that, hey, there's 1:29:39.000 --> 1:29:41.439 so much disinformation out there. At the time, we weren't 1:29:41.439 --> 1:29:46.080 even using those terms disinformation, right, but basically people were. 1:29:46.280 --> 1:29:49.479 We're bringing up the same complaints, which is, there's so 1:29:49.560 --> 1:29:53.840 much disinformation out there, you're basically just adding to it. 1:29:54.000 --> 1:29:56.160 What what are you even doing? So I guess the 1:29:56.240 --> 1:30:01.639 idea is that, and you know, it's a very noble idea, 1:30:02.320 --> 1:30:06.719 which is what's our response to disinformation? Right? We should 1:30:07.000 --> 1:30:09.240 I guess the idea is we should call out every 1:30:09.280 --> 1:30:13.040 instance of it when we can flag posts, UM, report 1:30:13.080 --> 1:30:17.960 posts that violate community community standards, you know, speak out, um, 1:30:18.000 --> 1:30:20.880 provide counter evidence when you see fake news that sort 1:30:20.920 --> 1:30:24.880 of thing. And I think that's great, that's a good thing. UM. 1:30:24.920 --> 1:30:30.040 But disinformation, the problem of disinformation is at the time, 1:30:30.200 --> 1:30:32.080 this is kind of how I explained that, like ten 1:30:32.160 --> 1:30:34.639 years ago, I I described it as a pen as 1:30:34.680 --> 1:30:39.960 an epidemic, yeah right, or or like a cockroach infestation, 1:30:40.080 --> 1:30:42.840 like every time you kill one, ten more spring up 1:30:43.560 --> 1:30:46.880 and v this this notion of like we gotta call 1:30:46.960 --> 1:30:51.360 out every instance of disinformation and stomp it away. Is like, 1:30:52.080 --> 1:30:55.400 it's great, but you're focused on killing cockroaches. Yeah, it's 1:30:55.400 --> 1:30:57.960 like addressing the symptoms not the actual problem, right, I 1:30:58.000 --> 1:31:01.479 want to get to the cockroach's nest. Right. And whenever 1:31:01.600 --> 1:31:06.240 whenever I give talks about this um this project, people 1:31:06.280 --> 1:31:10.040 always approach me afterwards, you know, like wanting me to 1:31:10.160 --> 1:31:12.400 kind of because we we don't just talk about this project. 1:31:12.439 --> 1:31:14.880 We talked about like deep fake stuff, like we show 1:31:15.320 --> 1:31:18.400 speeches of Obama, like looking like the real Obama, but 1:31:18.439 --> 1:31:22.040 it's like completely fake, right, and people start to realize 1:31:22.040 --> 1:31:24.240 the holy sh it, like I don't even know what's 1:31:24.280 --> 1:31:26.320 real or not anymore, Like what can I trust? And 1:31:26.360 --> 1:31:30.479 they approached me expecting me to ease their anxiety somehow 1:31:30.520 --> 1:31:32.839 and kind of like guide them through how to discern 1:31:32.880 --> 1:31:36.400 what's true from what's not, as though my project was 1:31:36.439 --> 1:31:41.040 about finding some sort of solution, And I tell them that, like, 1:31:41.120 --> 1:31:44.960 my project wasn't about solving the problem. It was about 1:31:45.040 --> 1:31:48.479 seeing the problem, right, It's about it's about trying to 1:31:48.520 --> 1:31:51.080 get to the heart of the matter. And it's like 1:31:51.720 --> 1:31:53.599 to me, I think, like the heart of the matter, 1:31:53.720 --> 1:31:59.160 like the cockroach's nest is the I don't know, you 1:32:00.000 --> 1:32:03.200 are different ways to say, but basically, the the lack 1:32:03.240 --> 1:32:06.799 of critical thinking and individuals and like in this society 1:32:06.840 --> 1:32:11.520 we shaped together or um or lack of a willingness 1:32:11.560 --> 1:32:17.400 to think through things carefully. Maybe that's that's um. That's like, 1:32:17.439 --> 1:32:20.120 if we had a society of critical thinkers, this wouldn't 1:32:20.120 --> 1:32:22.000 be much of a problem. I think it's because so 1:32:22.040 --> 1:32:24.960 many people come at a lot of information from like 1:32:24.960 --> 1:32:27.960 when you would say, the rational viewpoint of like they're 1:32:28.000 --> 1:32:30.000 trying to use reason and stuff, like they're trying to 1:32:30.040 --> 1:32:32.840 think critically, they're trying to think logically, but they come 1:32:32.880 --> 1:32:35.160 at it in the terms of rationalizing stuff they already 1:32:35.160 --> 1:32:39.679 believe um. And I think that's a very prevailing type 1:32:39.680 --> 1:32:41.719 of idea in terms of like, yes, I'm gonna believe 1:32:41.720 --> 1:32:44.160 in this thing, so I'm gonna find evidence to support 1:32:44.200 --> 1:32:48.000 it um, which isn't critical thinking. I don't think. I'm 1:32:48.040 --> 1:32:51.440 not really why is that? Is itself a logical fallacy? 1:32:51.600 --> 1:32:53.679 But that is so calm, especially on the Internet, because 1:32:53.720 --> 1:32:56.599 the Internet encourages the backfire effects. You know, whenever someone 1:32:56.600 --> 1:32:59.479 calls it on something you want to be right, so 1:32:59.520 --> 1:33:01.439 you're gonna it's as soon as as soon as someone 1:33:01.439 --> 1:33:03.760 calls something you're going to backfire. You're going to like 1:33:04.200 --> 1:33:08.080 become even more entrenched in what you believe. Um when 1:33:08.080 --> 1:33:10.120 you you know, when when you explain to someone that know, 1:33:10.240 --> 1:33:13.040 Hillary Clinton is bad, but she doesn't eat the blood 1:33:13.080 --> 1:33:16.000 of children, Like, no, she does. I saw all this thing. 1:33:16.120 --> 1:33:17.840 I have to believe it because like all of the 1:33:17.880 --> 1:33:19.880 things aren't tied up in what makes you a person. 1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:23.080 And now all of these ideas that have that where 1:33:23.160 --> 1:33:24.640 used to be just be conspiracy theories that you can 1:33:24.640 --> 1:33:27.280 believe in for fun, are now so a part of 1:33:27.680 --> 1:33:30.360 like what people's sense of being are and how they 1:33:30.400 --> 1:33:33.240 have their entire world view that there's so much more 1:33:34.400 --> 1:33:36.599 because the Internet is such a bigger part of their lives. 1:33:36.600 --> 1:33:38.240 Everything on the Internet is a bigger part of the 1:33:38.280 --> 1:33:40.360 lives for each person. So it is more of an 1:33:40.360 --> 1:33:43.360 ontological threat because these things are so closer together now, right, 1:33:43.360 --> 1:33:44.840 They used to be much more of a distinction between 1:33:44.840 --> 1:33:46.720 the Internet and you because you can only ask the 1:33:46.760 --> 1:33:48.679 computer every once in a while. We can now carry 1:33:48.680 --> 1:33:50.920 on as a supercomputer wherever you go, so it is 1:33:50.920 --> 1:33:52.240 like a part of you, like you bring it with 1:33:52.280 --> 1:33:55.240 you almost everywhere. It's always in your pocket. So these 1:33:55.240 --> 1:33:59.320 things are so like stitched together that prying them apart 1:33:59.400 --> 1:34:02.000 and tell people know this thing you would carry around 1:34:02.439 --> 1:34:04.679 Actually probably most don't you see on it isn't isn't 1:34:04.720 --> 1:34:08.639 actually true like there is people can like believe that 1:34:08.840 --> 1:34:12.360 in their heads, but don't actually don't. Actually the belief 1:34:12.360 --> 1:34:14.160 hasn't actually impact them because like we all know that 1:34:14.200 --> 1:34:16.400 there's like well we all know that people can just 1:34:16.439 --> 1:34:18.040 go on the internet and lie, right, it is like 1:34:18.280 --> 1:34:21.360 part of the joke, but we still don't act like it. 1:34:21.600 --> 1:34:26.280 Like oftentimes we get so we get so like encased 1:34:26.320 --> 1:34:28.639 into the stories that we tell ourselves. Right, the part 1:34:28.640 --> 1:34:30.320 of our the is sharing stairwell is so good is 1:34:30.360 --> 1:34:32.680 that it's such a it's such a compelling story like that, 1:34:32.800 --> 1:34:35.519 Like the idea of like a brilliant architect bringing like 1:34:35.600 --> 1:34:39.160 you know, building this paradox in the real world is 1:34:39.200 --> 1:34:42.880 like is so much more fun than being like, yeah, 1:34:42.920 --> 1:34:45.800 some dude just knows how to use Adobe after effects. 1:34:45.840 --> 1:34:49.840 Like right, So you get so entrenched into storytelling because 1:34:50.000 --> 1:34:53.439 the story of like politicians eating eating the blood of 1:34:53.520 --> 1:34:57.040 children is so much more interesting than no, politicians just 1:34:57.080 --> 1:35:00.439 don't care about you like, and I think to the 1:35:00.479 --> 1:35:03.080 heart of that problem is so much more difficult than 1:35:03.160 --> 1:35:06.120 just you know, debunking things, because you can debunk things 1:35:06.160 --> 1:35:10.559 all day and does that actually matter? Yeah, I think 1:35:10.560 --> 1:35:12.680 there there's there's a secondary problem that like, you know, 1:35:12.720 --> 1:35:15.120 there's anohing like a lether level of it, which is 1:35:15.120 --> 1:35:17.240 that yeah, like everyone knows that there's this information now, 1:35:18.000 --> 1:35:20.200 like everyone does, but but that just makes it worse 1:35:20.280 --> 1:35:22.519 because now if you want to do this information, what 1:35:22.600 --> 1:35:24.000 you can claim is like, oh, hey, look at all 1:35:24.040 --> 1:35:26.120 these other times that all the stuff has been fake 1:35:26.200 --> 1:35:27.439 and then you know, and this is how you get 1:35:27.479 --> 1:35:30.519 everyone like doing frame by frame analysis of like a 1:35:30.640 --> 1:35:33.439 bombing and going oh, these are all crisis actors, and 1:35:33.479 --> 1:35:35.280 it's like you know, and you talk, you talk to 1:35:35.320 --> 1:35:38.200 these people and they're like, oh, yeah, no, I did. 1:35:38.240 --> 1:35:40.000 I did the research. Look, I like I saw through 1:35:40.000 --> 1:35:42.559 the lives and it's like, no, You've just completely made 1:35:42.560 --> 1:35:44.920 this thing up in your head. You can see the 1:35:44.960 --> 1:35:48.719 green screen compression and like, no, it's just regular video compression, 1:35:48.760 --> 1:35:51.320 and it's like, yeah, like everyone can be a detective now, 1:35:51.600 --> 1:35:54.160 so everyone can be so convinced to their own conclusions, 1:35:54.200 --> 1:35:57.320 even when the conclusions turned out to be not true. Right, 1:35:59.479 --> 1:36:01.800 it's a problem. If there was an exy solution, we 1:36:01.840 --> 1:36:04.240 wouldn't have the problem. Right. It's one of those things 1:36:04.280 --> 1:36:06.760 where it's like your projects a very good example of 1:36:06.800 --> 1:36:09.960 like it's it's it's it's a very demonstrative thing. You 1:36:10.000 --> 1:36:13.320 can like you you take someone along this journey and demonstrate, hey, 1:36:13.439 --> 1:36:15.400 this can happen to you, so you should watch out 1:36:15.439 --> 1:36:17.799 for us. Right, Look look at the story I crafted. 1:36:18.040 --> 1:36:20.360 Look how you become convinced it for these six minutes 1:36:20.680 --> 1:36:24.280 and then you think, oh, wait, no, you can't teleport 1:36:24.280 --> 1:36:27.720 to a bottom stairwell. That's not that's not how that works. Um. 1:36:27.800 --> 1:36:30.080 But because you take them on that journey, it's a 1:36:30.160 --> 1:36:31.760 very it's a I love it so much as like 1:36:31.800 --> 1:36:36.080 a demonstrative process, being like like this can happen, so 1:36:36.160 --> 1:36:38.120 watch out for it in the future. I think is 1:36:38.120 --> 1:36:43.680 honestly more useful than just debunking somebody because you can 1:36:43.920 --> 1:36:45.240 you can debunk all day and you can have the 1:36:45.240 --> 1:36:49.439 backfire effect and stuff. And you're right about the demonstrative stuff, 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:52.760 because it's like if a bunch of film students and 1:36:52.840 --> 1:36:56.760 volunteers with no connections and no resources pulled this off, 1:36:56.840 --> 1:36:59.559 like We did like a tally of all the videos 1:37:00.280 --> 1:37:03.320 at the end of the year of um, you know, 1:37:03.360 --> 1:37:05.519 all the videos that ripped it off and posted on 1:37:05.560 --> 1:37:08.240 their own channels and all that. Um, it was like 1:37:08.320 --> 1:37:10.920 fifty million. Right. So if if a bunch of film 1:37:11.000 --> 1:37:14.960 students like had that much influence, what more can like 1:37:15.080 --> 1:37:21.599 people who are actually fund like and resources, right, what 1:37:21.680 --> 1:37:24.479 could they do? And we were just doing and ours 1:37:24.560 --> 1:37:28.280 was about like this innocuous, silly Stairwell, it wasn't about 1:37:28.320 --> 1:37:32.240 anything that would cause you know, anyone's death or anything 1:37:32.280 --> 1:37:36.280 like that or and like, you know, something like in 1:37:36.479 --> 1:37:41.480 Me and Mar where the ME and Mar military basically 1:37:41.520 --> 1:37:48.040 systemically systematically created fake articles and fake photos to create 1:37:48.160 --> 1:37:52.200 like to arouse disdain for the row hinge of people 1:37:52.320 --> 1:37:57.080 and basically they incited a genocide through Facebook just through 1:37:57.120 --> 1:38:01.840 fake news right in the Philippines where I live right now, um, 1:38:01.960 --> 1:38:06.120 which a lot of commentators call like the patient zero 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:13.440 of disinformation because this guy called was elected president basically 1:38:14.000 --> 1:38:18.720 ran running his entire campaign on disinformation and after him 1:38:18.760 --> 1:38:21.479 was Brexit like a month later, and after that was 1:38:21.720 --> 1:38:25.000 Trump got the nomination. So like what's her named, Kate 1:38:25.120 --> 1:38:28.639 Katie Barth Barth or or something like that. The one 1:38:28.640 --> 1:38:31.439 of the executives of Facebook referred to the Philippines as 1:38:31.960 --> 1:38:37.559 patient zero in the era of disinformation because like, um 1:38:37.600 --> 1:38:42.360 and the thing that the president here right now was 1:38:42.479 --> 1:38:46.120 running on was basically like the same sort of um 1:38:46.960 --> 1:38:50.400 bothering and scapegoating of a certain group. And he said, basically, 1:38:50.439 --> 1:38:53.200 he's the guy who said, like, basically, if you're a 1:38:53.240 --> 1:38:55.880 drug user or a drug dealer, it should be okay 1:38:55.920 --> 1:38:58.559 to murder you and kill you. And that's what happened. 1:38:58.600 --> 1:39:01.400 That's exactly what happened. And because they were posting all 1:39:01.400 --> 1:39:05.840 these stories about um, you know, the same sorts of 1:39:05.880 --> 1:39:08.639 stories that you that that we saw in the US 1:39:08.680 --> 1:39:12.599 in twenties sixteen about undocumented immigrants or Muslims or something 1:39:12.680 --> 1:39:15.840 like that. This like, oh, this undocumented immigrant raped the 1:39:15.880 --> 1:39:17.559 five year old girl, you know, that sort of thing. 1:39:18.880 --> 1:39:24.920 And he would the the the organized campaign making up 1:39:24.920 --> 1:39:30.760 stories about drug addicts like murdering and raping people. Basically 1:39:30.800 --> 1:39:35.240 like got an entire nation too, well, not an entire nation, 1:39:35.320 --> 1:39:39.680 but basically this guy won the election. And you know, 1:39:40.240 --> 1:39:44.800 we have a country right now that basically lived through 1:39:45.320 --> 1:39:49.680 just atrocities the last five six years, you know, and 1:39:49.760 --> 1:39:52.360 like the double edged sort of this, like Chris mentioned, 1:39:52.479 --> 1:39:56.320 is like, yeah, this type same type of thing. Because 1:39:56.320 --> 1:39:59.760 it exists, people also like retractively apply it to like 1:40:00.120 --> 1:40:03.320 you know, like Sandy Hook was staged or like even 1:40:03.360 --> 1:40:06.120 stuff now with like you know the pandemic, right, people 1:40:06.360 --> 1:40:08.280 like what if what is? What is the pandemic is 1:40:08.280 --> 1:40:10.280 a real? What if all these people have just you know, 1:40:10.880 --> 1:40:13.800 conjured this thing into being and it's all a giant 1:40:13.880 --> 1:40:16.599 insifferation campaign, right, So it has this dual it has 1:40:16.600 --> 1:40:20.000 this double edged sword nature um which makes combat and 1:40:20.040 --> 1:40:23.600 information so challenging. It's like disiformation to combat information, to 1:40:23.640 --> 1:40:27.799 comment the idea of disinformation, and there's so many layers 1:40:27.840 --> 1:40:31.519 of it. Now this this this, it's just yeah, it 1:40:31.560 --> 1:40:33.320 makes it, It makes actually gett into the heart of 1:40:33.360 --> 1:40:36.080 it so much more challenging. It's been abstracted so many times. 1:40:36.720 --> 1:40:39.200 And one of the things that didn't didn't the New 1:40:39.280 --> 1:40:40.920 York Times weren't it the first people to come up 1:40:40.920 --> 1:40:42.720 with the term fake news? And then Trump started using 1:40:42.720 --> 1:40:46.720 it after Like we were watching pastificate, which newsiper was, 1:40:46.760 --> 1:40:48.400 but my memory if it was like it was, it 1:40:48.439 --> 1:40:50.080 was it was the media that came up with fake news. 1:40:50.120 --> 1:40:53.240 And then like Trump just took it and it became 1:40:53.280 --> 1:40:56.519 this like this just like demon they absolutely could not 1:40:56.560 --> 1:40:59.840 control and was just turned on them. Do you do 1:40:59.880 --> 1:41:02.960 you remember the context in which they used it. They 1:41:03.040 --> 1:41:06.320 were like they were I think they were calling like 1:41:06.520 --> 1:41:10.439 stuff that Trump said fake news. M M I am. 1:41:10.479 --> 1:41:15.120 I'm unsure at the moment who specifically coined that term, 1:41:15.160 --> 1:41:17.360 but I mean we definitely see in terms like even 1:41:17.479 --> 1:41:20.040 in even terms like desigeration, which used to be more 1:41:20.120 --> 1:41:23.400 tied to like a discording in philosophy, breaking like in 1:41:23.479 --> 1:41:25.640 like even even back even as back far as like 1:41:25.680 --> 1:41:28.640 the eighties, getting you know, turned into an actual like 1:41:28.760 --> 1:41:32.759 political term that everybody uses, so that it was actually 1:41:32.800 --> 1:41:36.200 somebody from buzz Speed. An editor at buzz Speed was 1:41:36.280 --> 1:41:40.040 one of that makes sense, is one of the ones 1:41:40.080 --> 1:41:45.479 who first popularized it. Uh was, Yeah, But there could 1:41:45.520 --> 1:41:49.160 be there could be you know, several other people that 1:41:49.280 --> 1:41:51.760 say that they coined it. I don't know, I mean, 1:41:51.800 --> 1:41:56.280 I even there's even u an illustration from eighteen ninety 1:41:56.400 --> 1:42:01.080 four by by Frederick Offer with reporter is carrying newspapers 1:42:01.200 --> 1:42:05.880 labeled humble lows, cheap sensation, and fake news. So it's 1:42:05.920 --> 1:42:07.519 I mean, in terms of in terms of just mashing 1:42:07.520 --> 1:42:10.200 words together. I'm sure it has has had a decent history, 1:42:10.560 --> 1:42:13.160 but definitely Trump is the one that like launched it 1:42:13.320 --> 1:42:19.800 into the zeitgeist, right right, right, Let's see, Robert, you've 1:42:19.800 --> 1:42:21.600 been pretty quiet. I know it's pretty early in the 1:42:21.600 --> 1:42:23.280 morning for you. Do you have any do you have 1:42:23.280 --> 1:42:26.120 any kind of thoughts to help us kind of generally 1:42:26.160 --> 1:42:28.520 start closing us out, not not not like super immediately, 1:42:28.560 --> 1:42:31.280 but generally having that direction. I mean no, not really 1:42:31.360 --> 1:42:35.599 kind of brought up everything. I would say, all right, 1:42:35.720 --> 1:42:42.479 all right, it's ah, yeah, I guess, uh, Mike, what 1:42:42.640 --> 1:42:46.000 have How is this project of impacted how you approach 1:42:46.080 --> 1:42:48.720 film and just like how you how you use the 1:42:48.800 --> 1:42:55.200 internet yourself in the past decade? M hmm, Well, I 1:42:55.200 --> 1:43:01.479 I'm fully aware of what we did. Every time I'm 1:43:01.560 --> 1:43:03.760 like looking at something, I'm like, they had done that? 1:43:04.080 --> 1:43:05.960 Could they have done this? And that, you know that 1:43:06.040 --> 1:43:13.280 sort of thing. Um, I don't know if it's if yeah, 1:43:13.320 --> 1:43:15.519 I don't I'm not sure how it's how this project 1:43:15.600 --> 1:43:22.160 specifically had impacted me, other than just trying to think 1:43:22.200 --> 1:43:26.040 through things a bit more carefully, trying to go through 1:43:26.120 --> 1:43:31.520 things like, um, I mean like so we we basically 1:43:32.120 --> 1:43:35.920 came up with this idea of what eventually became troll farms. 1:43:36.000 --> 1:43:39.960 Right like me and like my classmates would Hey, we 1:43:40.240 --> 1:43:43.640 even make fake accounts and like talk about the stairwell, 1:43:44.320 --> 1:43:48.960 and um so, I don't know, like a few years 1:43:49.000 --> 1:43:52.320 later people we we learned that people were actually doing this, 1:43:52.479 --> 1:43:56.800 like to influence like elections around the world, and a 1:43:56.880 --> 1:44:01.400 lot of the strategy of like the control forms and stuff, 1:44:02.400 --> 1:44:08.040 um was to basically create caricature versions right of arguments 1:44:08.080 --> 1:44:12.519 from whatever side, like you know, whether they might present 1:44:12.560 --> 1:44:15.600 an argument from like the left or the right, but 1:44:15.640 --> 1:44:19.360 in like a caricaturized version of it. And um, so 1:44:19.439 --> 1:44:22.240 what people would see when they see that, they'd see 1:44:22.240 --> 1:44:25.120 an argument coming from the other side, and they'd ridicule it, 1:44:25.200 --> 1:44:29.120 like look at these people who just seem crazy espousing 1:44:29.200 --> 1:44:33.800 this whatever view, you know, or they might say things like, um, 1:44:33.840 --> 1:44:36.519 like yeah, if you're a Democrat, you want to abort 1:44:36.600 --> 1:44:39.320 babies that like the ninth month or something like that, 1:44:39.360 --> 1:44:44.400 which no reasonable person actually argued. So what happens is like, um, 1:44:44.439 --> 1:44:47.559 people talk about how the goal of Russia was to 1:44:47.640 --> 1:44:53.559 like polarize, you know, um, polarize the political spectrum. I 1:44:53.600 --> 1:44:58.280 think like the bigger goal and the the goal that 1:44:58.360 --> 1:45:01.280 we're going to be untangling for many many years. And 1:45:01.320 --> 1:45:07.000 the more um the more difficult problem to deal with 1:45:07.200 --> 1:45:13.240 was that they oversimple They successfully oversimplified discourse. You know 1:45:13.280 --> 1:45:15.680 what I'm saying, Like they found a way to like 1:45:15.880 --> 1:45:20.519 oversimplify the type of discourse we're having because everyone's like 1:45:20.640 --> 1:45:25.599 arguing with such simplistic I'm not sure if I'm making sense. 1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:28.640 It's like it's like it's like the term I use 1:45:28.720 --> 1:45:32.800 is like politics as fandom, right, And that's why I 1:45:32.800 --> 1:45:35.679 think that like intersect not not exactly what you're saying, 1:45:35.680 --> 1:45:38.400 but like intersects with that type of idea of like 1:45:38.880 --> 1:45:43.200 condensing down actual discussions on like what you believe in 1:45:43.920 --> 1:45:46.000 um and what politics you want and how you want 1:45:46.040 --> 1:45:48.600 to put the world into this weird fandom lens of 1:45:48.600 --> 1:45:50.719 like this team versus this team which we we we 1:45:50.720 --> 1:45:52.360 we we we we We've had a degree of that 1:45:52.439 --> 1:45:55.400 for a long long time. But with the Internet and 1:45:55.400 --> 1:45:58.439 how how discussions on the Internet are designed to work, right, 1:45:58.560 --> 1:46:00.840 how algorithms want to boost her him, how there's always 1:46:00.840 --> 1:46:03.799 these short snippets just in mirrors the way people discuss 1:46:03.920 --> 1:46:07.000 like what Star Wars character is their favorite. It's just that. 1:46:07.120 --> 1:46:11.960 But for politics, um, so it's it's just this, like 1:46:12.040 --> 1:46:14.800 what if politics is just this idea of fandom, and 1:46:14.880 --> 1:46:17.519 you can debate what fandom is more valid than the other. Right, 1:46:17.840 --> 1:46:20.520 I like the Last Jedi more you like Rise of Skywalker. 1:46:20.760 --> 1:46:23.360 This means your version of reality is less good than mine. 1:46:23.600 --> 1:46:29.280 So when that objectively true, which is which is? But 1:46:31.120 --> 1:46:34.320 is that same idea but for how we like make 1:46:34.400 --> 1:46:37.280 social programs and how we address racism, and how we 1:46:37.320 --> 1:46:40.040 like give food to poor people, and how we do 1:46:40.080 --> 1:46:43.479 affordable housing and how we handle the police. So it's 1:46:43.520 --> 1:46:49.720 that type of idea which is just disinformation kind of 1:46:49.760 --> 1:46:53.439 impacts this in part because when you flood the zone 1:46:53.720 --> 1:46:57.599 with so much conflicting information that people can't really get 1:46:57.640 --> 1:47:00.800 a handle on or easily sort of like when they're 1:47:00.840 --> 1:47:04.479 when when you've when you've put that much confusion into 1:47:04.520 --> 1:47:07.479 the air, um, it makes people more likely to just 1:47:07.560 --> 1:47:10.680 kind of grasp its sides because everything coming out is 1:47:10.720 --> 1:47:13.439 way too complicated and messy, and it's it takes too 1:47:13.520 --> 1:47:17.320 much work what's actually true? So holding to some rubric 1:47:17.360 --> 1:47:20.200 of well I believe this, so that means these are 1:47:20.200 --> 1:47:22.439 the good guys, These are the bad guys. And I 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:25.280 don't have to analyze it any deeper than that. I 1:47:25.280 --> 1:47:27.720 can reject information that comes from this group, where I 1:47:27.720 --> 1:47:32.120 can reject information that says this, um, because I just 1:47:32.240 --> 1:47:37.200 category categorically reject you know, anything that that fits in 1:47:37.240 --> 1:47:40.920 with that. Like, that's the benefit of disinformation for authoritarians 1:47:40.920 --> 1:47:44.680 of all stripes. You're seeing in Ukraine right now, where um, 1:47:44.720 --> 1:47:48.200 you've got all of these different authoritarian powers. You've got Turkey, 1:47:48.240 --> 1:47:51.200 you've got Russia, you've got um, you know, fucking the 1:47:51.840 --> 1:47:54.120 United States, at least to the extent that like we 1:47:54.479 --> 1:47:57.960 impact a lot of things internationally. Um. And you've got 1:47:58.120 --> 1:48:01.160 them all coming down on different sides of this issue 1:48:01.320 --> 1:48:04.160 and of what's happening in Ukraine. And because there's so 1:48:04.240 --> 1:48:08.800 much disinformation and misinformation about what's going on, people just 1:48:08.880 --> 1:48:13.120 kind of grasp at whatever side I'm have been more 1:48:13.160 --> 1:48:16.280 sympathetic to recently, I'm just going to believe whatever they 1:48:16.360 --> 1:48:20.200 say because it's way too complicated to actually analyze what's 1:48:20.280 --> 1:48:22.519 going on. Yeah, And this was this was the thing 1:48:22.560 --> 1:48:24.519 that that I mean, this was explicit on the left. 1:48:24.680 --> 1:48:29.160 I remember this. There was this around Umen. There was 1:48:29.160 --> 1:48:31.760 a whole thing about how like people people like talking 1:48:31.760 --> 1:48:35.640 about anti imperialism would would literally say like nuance, nuances liberalism. 1:48:36.320 --> 1:48:39.519 I don't like nuances liberalism, don't don't research this, don't 1:48:39.520 --> 1:48:43.040 think about this because nuances how liberals like you know, 1:48:43.200 --> 1:48:45.759 spread sort of pro promising change, proplicanda, Like I remember 1:48:45.760 --> 1:48:47.800 those people like every Frost just just straight up said 1:48:47.840 --> 1:48:49.960 this and this was a huge and you know, like 1:48:50.000 --> 1:48:52.040 I got a lot of shift for this because you know, 1:48:52.479 --> 1:48:54.840 like I remember when when when the Coon Bolivia happened, 1:48:54.880 --> 1:48:57.040 Like I made a giant thread that was trying to 1:48:57.240 --> 1:48:58.800 that was like, okay, we need to figure out like 1:48:59.160 --> 1:49:01.960 how specificly the CIA was involved in this, Like okay, 1:49:01.960 --> 1:49:03.840 so did they plan the whole thing? Was it? Like 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:06.280 were they working with local partners? Wasn't a thing where 1:49:06.280 --> 1:49:07.880 someone else planned it and they signed off on it? 1:49:07.920 --> 1:49:10.599 And like to this day people think that I supported 1:49:10.600 --> 1:49:12.880 the coup because I was like, we should figure out 1:49:12.920 --> 1:49:14.840 who was who the actors were in the ground because 1:49:14.840 --> 1:49:17.720 no one like this, this this this this became like 1:49:17.880 --> 1:49:21.479 a like like like a tenant, like like an actual 1:49:21.520 --> 1:49:24.240 sort of like like political tenants of of how a 1:49:24.280 --> 1:49:27.519 lot of antimpurialism, like in the American left worked was you. 1:49:27.520 --> 1:49:29.960 You were not supposed to do nuanced, You were not 1:49:30.000 --> 1:49:32.120 supposed to look at who was Like you know, if 1:49:32.160 --> 1:49:34.120 if if you spent too long looking at what was 1:49:34.160 --> 1:49:35.800 going on in the ground, people would be like you 1:49:35.920 --> 1:49:39.400 you worked for the CIA, and that you know, I 1:49:39.400 --> 1:49:41.599 think like we we we've we've finally seen that basically 1:49:41.600 --> 1:49:44.000 blow up in their faces because you know, oh, hey, 1:49:44.000 --> 1:49:45.920 look how many of these people just like would up 1:49:45.960 --> 1:49:49.240 supporting Russia and then spent like three months saying that 1:49:49.320 --> 1:49:52.040 Russia would never invade Ukraine. That this happens. But it's 1:49:52.120 --> 1:49:55.960 I don't know, it's it's it's it's extremely depressing how 1:49:56.000 --> 1:49:59.720 people who otherwise are you know, like in a lot 1:49:59.720 --> 1:50:01.120 of way. It is like I've spent a lot of 1:50:01.160 --> 1:50:05.679 their time like trying to you know, filter out stuff 1:50:05.680 --> 1:50:08.759 from the media that's false, just go into this because 1:50:09.560 --> 1:50:13.160 they just do not want to deal with the complexity 1:50:13.200 --> 1:50:18.320 of reality. Yeah, just easier not to. Again, if there 1:50:18.360 --> 1:50:20.400 was a simple problem, we wouldn't mean, if there was 1:50:20.439 --> 1:50:24.679 a simple solution, we wouldn't need to discuss the problem. Yeah. Yeah, 1:50:24.680 --> 1:50:28.400 So I guess basically like just to like um, answer 1:50:28.680 --> 1:50:32.080 that question about how it I guess at the time, 1:50:32.160 --> 1:50:34.360 I'd say like we got an up close look at 1:50:34.680 --> 1:50:37.280 how things were going to be, Like you know, with 1:50:37.280 --> 1:50:40.640 with all these things, we we kind of anticipated the 1:50:40.680 --> 1:50:46.960 next few years. Um so yeah, that's basically what happened. Um, 1:50:46.960 --> 1:50:52.960 sorry to interrupt your clothing, but no, no, no, it's 1:50:53.000 --> 1:50:56.559 the it's the best note that that we can go. Um, Michael, 1:50:56.720 --> 1:50:59.000 do you where can people find you online? And if 1:50:59.000 --> 1:51:01.200 people want to look into us with your other projects, 1:51:02.160 --> 1:51:05.519 I mean you found me, Like if they want to 1:51:05.560 --> 1:51:07.559 find me, they'll find me, right, I don't know. I 1:51:07.600 --> 1:51:10.240 still don't know. You got my email, but Garrison is 1:51:10.240 --> 1:51:13.519 extremely good about this, Tope. Any people are that could 1:51:14.880 --> 1:51:17.519 uh yeah, well they can check out the YouTube channel 1:51:17.760 --> 1:51:21.560 like I'm gonna be posting some new films this year probably, 1:51:22.120 --> 1:51:25.720 Um so my name Michael Lock. Canna allow or just 1:51:25.880 --> 1:51:30.080 search the achariance there. Well, I guess that's a way. Yeah. Yeah, 1:51:30.479 --> 1:51:34.240 I'll add your YouTube channel to to the description. Yeah, 1:51:34.240 --> 1:51:35.680 and I just want to thank you so much for 1:51:35.720 --> 1:51:40.400 coming on to talk about your your project. Yeah, thanks 1:51:40.400 --> 1:51:43.680 for having me. All right, Well, that that does it 1:51:43.840 --> 1:51:47.280 for us today. You can follow us on the internets 1:51:47.320 --> 1:51:50.360 for some reason, um on Twitter, Instagram that happened here 1:51:50.360 --> 1:51:56.120 pod and Coolsive Media and yeah, go go create a 1:51:56.200 --> 1:51:59.080 myth that people will believe and travel from out of 1:51:59.120 --> 1:52:02.519 country to walk over some stairs because that sounds like fun. 1:52:02.560 --> 1:52:06.040 Go to something like that for fun funzies. All right, 1:52:06.280 --> 1:52:25.320 bye bye, it could happen here. Uh. It being a 1:52:25.439 --> 1:52:28.800 number of things. Uh. This is the podcast about things 1:52:28.840 --> 1:52:31.320 falling apart and also maybe putting them back together. And 1:52:31.360 --> 1:52:35.080 assuming there's not a nuclear war in the immediate future, 1:52:35.120 --> 1:52:38.400 you will probably be hearing this episode sometime in early March. 1:52:38.920 --> 1:52:42.639 I am Robert Evans, my co hosts as always well 1:52:42.800 --> 1:52:46.160 as often Chris and Garrison, And that's that's my job 1:52:46.200 --> 1:52:47.840 for the day. Done. I'm gonna I'm gonna sit back 1:52:47.880 --> 1:52:50.120 and chill. You guys want to take it from here, Yeah, 1:52:50.160 --> 1:52:52.040 I'll take it from here. We are doing one of 1:52:52.080 --> 1:52:55.000 our perennial things fall apart, but also we sort of 1:52:55.040 --> 1:52:59.200 put it back together again episodes. And joining us today 1:52:59.240 --> 1:53:03.639 is JAMS from Strange Matter is a new libertarian socialist 1:53:03.720 --> 1:53:07.559 cooperative magazine. J MC. Great to have you here. Yeah, 1:53:07.640 --> 1:53:11.639 this is really great. So I guess we should probably 1:53:11.640 --> 1:53:14.879 explain what the magazine is not, just in of itself, 1:53:14.920 --> 1:53:17.920 but also because it's a good lead in into um 1:53:18.200 --> 1:53:21.400 um into what we're gonna be talking about. So we 1:53:21.479 --> 1:53:24.400 basically there's five of us as co editors and we're 1:53:24.400 --> 1:53:27.160 all equal worker owners in it. It's a magazine called 1:53:27.200 --> 1:53:31.800 Strange Matters, and the point of it is to explore 1:53:32.080 --> 1:53:35.920 radical new ideas, not just in terms of politics and economics, 1:53:35.920 --> 1:53:37.839 which is going to be kind of half the focus 1:53:37.920 --> 1:53:40.799 is trying to figure out like you know, libertarian socialists 1:53:40.800 --> 1:53:42.800 talk a lot about dual power, which I know you'all 1:53:42.840 --> 1:53:45.400 talk about on the show a lot, talk about building 1:53:45.479 --> 1:53:48.559 independent institutions under the direct democratic control of the working 1:53:48.600 --> 1:53:50.760 class to control real resources and are not the state 1:53:50.840 --> 1:53:53.479 or capitalist firms. But like we talk a big game, 1:53:53.520 --> 1:53:55.320 but we actually know how to do that stuff, And 1:53:55.320 --> 1:53:57.200 do we know how to do stuff like run like 1:53:57.320 --> 1:54:00.280 you know, a big company as a as a self 1:54:00.280 --> 1:54:02.360 managed democracy, or do we know how to run a 1:54:02.439 --> 1:54:05.520 city as a as a radical democracy like rooted neighborhood 1:54:05.520 --> 1:54:07.719 councils or anything like that. The answer kind of is 1:54:07.760 --> 1:54:10.599 not really And there's a lot of like um open 1:54:10.720 --> 1:54:14.040 questions that we don't know yet the answers to, and 1:54:14.080 --> 1:54:16.040 that very few people are working on those answers. So 1:54:16.080 --> 1:54:21.400 Strange Matters is UM partly about discovering uh those answers, 1:54:21.439 --> 1:54:23.759 not because we the editors have the answers, but because 1:54:23.760 --> 1:54:25.760 we need like some kind of space within which we 1:54:25.760 --> 1:54:29.200 can bring lots of different people, different life experiences together, uh, 1:54:29.240 --> 1:54:31.759 in order to talk about the stuff and figure it out. 1:54:32.280 --> 1:54:34.000 And then the other mission of it is to be 1:54:34.080 --> 1:54:37.200 a kind of general interest literary intellectual magazine doing the 1:54:37.280 --> 1:54:40.520 kind of journalism and philosophy and poetry and memoir and 1:54:40.560 --> 1:54:45.680 stuff like that that uh that uh perhaps gets shut 1:54:45.720 --> 1:54:48.920 out of capitalist society because it's not commercial, because it's 1:54:48.960 --> 1:54:52.640 too weird, because it's like, I don't know, historiographical essay 1:54:52.640 --> 1:54:54.520 about it's been called doon or something like that, you know. 1:54:54.600 --> 1:54:56.200 And and we think that there should be a place 1:54:56.240 --> 1:54:59.920 for that, um, just because it brings delight and mean 1:55:00.080 --> 1:55:03.080 into people's lives, and it's what we're fighting for a 1:55:03.120 --> 1:55:05.560 more democratic society in order to do. So. That's basically 1:55:05.600 --> 1:55:09.000 our vibe UM. And the asking question is a collective 1:55:09.120 --> 1:55:13.040 editorial that we that we collectively drafted and edited, uh, 1:55:13.080 --> 1:55:16.760 talking about our political views in particular and the recent 1:55:16.800 --> 1:55:20.600 history of libertarian socialism UM. And then asked for me. 1:55:20.840 --> 1:55:23.960 I'm I'm a writer who has written for a couple 1:55:23.960 --> 1:55:27.560 of other places like The Point in the Brooklyn rail Um, 1:55:27.800 --> 1:55:30.600 and I also was involved in the d S as 1:55:30.680 --> 1:55:39.280 Libertarian Socialist Caucus and also the Yeah yeah, yeah, but 1:55:39.520 --> 1:55:43.120 a lot of history there, trauma, you know, some some 1:55:43.880 --> 1:55:47.360 uh yeah, but any who uh and also the Symbiosis 1:55:47.360 --> 1:55:51.560 Federation UM, which is a federation across Mexico, the US, 1:55:51.760 --> 1:55:55.200 and Canada that is trying to put together. It's a 1:55:55.320 --> 1:55:58.280 it's a confederation of local organizations that are trying to 1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:02.040 do this kind of direct democracy stuff. Yeah. So I guess, well, okay, 1:56:02.040 --> 1:56:05.400 so the pandemic isn't I guess the perfect jumping in 1:56:05.440 --> 1:56:08.640 point for this. But I wanna go back and I 1:56:08.640 --> 1:56:10.840 guess getting into the meat of this piece because I 1:56:10.840 --> 1:56:13.080 think it's very interesting. I wanted to sort of talk 1:56:13.080 --> 1:56:15.840 about the origins of like what's called sort of neo 1:56:15.880 --> 1:56:21.320 anarchism and how it's sort of begin to decay after 1:56:22.280 --> 1:56:25.880 after the collapse of Occupy and after well, I guess 1:56:25.880 --> 1:56:28.040 the sort the sort of kind of revolutionary arc of 1:56:28.280 --> 1:56:33.560 the two tens, so basically before you do the decline 1:56:33.840 --> 1:56:35.400 at least is the way that we wrote it, and 1:56:35.440 --> 1:56:37.000 I kind of think that it's the way that I 1:56:37.040 --> 1:56:39.440 would tell it. Um, you have to kind of do 1:56:39.480 --> 1:56:43.520 the rise first, right, because like there was this moment 1:56:45.160 --> 1:56:53.080 from roughly the fall of Soviets in two roughly like 1:56:53.800 --> 1:56:58.360 two thousand and even kind of lingering in an afterlife afterwards, 1:56:58.600 --> 1:57:01.040 where it kind of looked anarchism is going to take 1:57:01.080 --> 1:57:02.880 over the world. And that's a bit of a joke. 1:57:03.080 --> 1:57:05.720 But it's also not a joke because in the context 1:57:05.760 --> 1:57:08.320 of like the radical left, which is of course obviously 1:57:08.360 --> 1:57:11.240 a kind of like you know, dissidents seen in any 1:57:11.240 --> 1:57:16.080 country where it happens to exist. Um, you know, everything 1:57:16.240 --> 1:57:19.960 receded in terms of the traditional parties because the fall 1:57:20.040 --> 1:57:24.680 of the Soviet style uh Leninists states uh, either through 1:57:24.720 --> 1:57:27.120 their collapse as in the case of the uss are 1:57:27.960 --> 1:57:31.160 or in the case of their transition to much more 1:57:31.240 --> 1:57:35.600 like clearly and obviously like state capitalist uh semi liberalized 1:57:36.200 --> 1:57:41.640 model like in China, like the you you basically had 1:57:41.680 --> 1:57:45.480 like this total recession, not just in Leninism interestingly, which 1:57:45.680 --> 1:57:47.720 obviously enough right, like you know, it's basically a global 1:57:47.720 --> 1:57:51.000 collapse of Leinists style of governments, but also in like 1:57:51.200 --> 1:57:55.120 social democracy. Um, because it's a lot of the I mean, 1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:58.080 it's actually kind of interesting why it's it's unclear why 1:57:58.120 --> 1:58:01.600 it is. Uh, people have different theories, but there you know, 1:58:01.640 --> 1:58:05.240 people often describe it in in um, you know Fisher's term, 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:09.800 the writer Mark Fisher capitalist realism. The attitude in the 1:58:09.880 --> 1:58:14.200 nineties was that, uh, you know, there's there's only one 1:58:14.240 --> 1:58:16.800 world that's possible, and it's the best of all possible worlds, 1:58:16.800 --> 1:58:19.400 and that's the capitalist world where everybody's gonna have McDonald's 1:58:19.400 --> 1:58:21.480 in every country, and two countries that have the same 1:58:21.600 --> 1:58:24.600 McDonald's are never going to go to war, which we 1:58:24.680 --> 1:58:26.240 kind of found out the hard way this week that 1:58:26.240 --> 1:58:29.880 that's not really the case. Well, and if people had 1:58:30.320 --> 1:58:32.720 paid attention more to other parts of the world, they 1:58:32.720 --> 1:58:34.600 would know that, like, well, there were civil wars in 1:58:34.600 --> 1:58:36.960 a bunch of countries that had McDonald's. It didn't stop 1:58:37.000 --> 1:58:42.080 people from shooting each other, as as the United States 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:44.360 should tell you, people will kill each other whether or 1:58:44.400 --> 1:58:47.160 not they have access to chicken McNuggets. Yeah, you know, 1:58:47.200 --> 1:58:48.720 I mean I think like that that's that's a period 1:58:48.760 --> 1:58:51.280 that has it's full of the most wrong anyone has 1:58:51.320 --> 1:58:54.240 ever been. Like you got your frenchis Fukiyama like the 1:58:54.280 --> 1:58:58.440 most wrong person ever You've got. Yeah, You've you've got 1:58:58.480 --> 1:59:02.000 a lot of serve idealogues, you like, have sort of 1:59:02.000 --> 1:59:05.600 deluded themselves into thinking this stuff is over and yeah, 1:59:05.600 --> 1:59:07.160 and I think you're right that that sort of plays 1:59:07.200 --> 1:59:10.320 into this, you know, into sort of the collapse of 1:59:10.440 --> 1:59:14.640 of of I guess, the party state left, and then 1:59:14.800 --> 1:59:18.440 the way in which that, you know, the the alternative 1:59:18.440 --> 1:59:22.360 to that, I guess becomes neo anarchism, and anarchists practice, 1:59:22.400 --> 1:59:24.560 even if it's not necessarily ideology with all the groups, 1:59:24.640 --> 1:59:27.200 kind of seeps its way into the rest of the 1:59:27.200 --> 1:59:32.560 activist scene. Yeah. So basically the story that we tell 1:59:32.760 --> 1:59:36.360 is that there's some you know, the Stuffatheast of rebellion 1:59:36.360 --> 1:59:40.720 in triggers these uh it's not just that the stuff 1:59:40.720 --> 1:59:42.600 of East is are able to create their autonomous territory 1:59:42.680 --> 1:59:46.440 and chap us, but they it triggers this wave uh 1:59:46.680 --> 1:59:49.400 that UM. We use a term that sometimes it's used 1:59:49.400 --> 1:59:53.200 in academia called neo anarchism for this. Um. You know, 1:59:53.320 --> 1:59:57.839 there's an anarchist revival in the nineties, UM around the world, 1:59:57.960 --> 2:00:00.960 and it's not just people calling themselves anarchists. It's all 2:00:01.000 --> 2:00:05.839 these movements that were inspired by the libertarian socialist broadly 2:00:05.880 --> 2:00:10.240 speaking UM Sabathistas UM, adopting kind of similar methods in 2:00:10.280 --> 2:00:14.360 their local contexts in different countries, fighting against I mean 2:00:14.480 --> 2:00:17.120 a lot of things. Initially it's against like you know, 2:00:17.360 --> 2:00:20.160 neoliberal trade deals, but it also ends up being against 2:00:20.160 --> 2:00:22.720 like sweatshops, because that's basically what a lot of outsourcing 2:00:22.840 --> 2:00:25.280 is is. You know, if if they have unions in 2:00:25.320 --> 2:00:27.680 this country from a social democratic period, they shut down 2:00:27.680 --> 2:00:30.000 the factory fire everybody moved it to some place where 2:00:30.440 --> 2:00:32.440 some dictatorship is going to shoot anybody who tries to 2:00:32.480 --> 2:00:35.520 do a union. Uh, and then that you know that 2:00:35.520 --> 2:00:39.400 that lowers Uh. Logistics has gotten sophisticated enough by this 2:00:39.440 --> 2:00:41.560 point that you know, it ends up being cheaper for 2:00:41.560 --> 2:00:43.360 the company even though they have to transport goods all 2:00:43.400 --> 2:00:45.360 across the world and do just in time delivering that 2:00:45.440 --> 2:00:50.400 kind of thing. So UM. The a lot of the 2:00:50.400 --> 2:00:54.320 the the anti globalization movement that sprouted up around the 2:00:54.360 --> 2:00:58.560 two thousands was like UM, against all these things and 2:00:58.680 --> 2:01:02.040 usually using the kinds of wrecked actions, which is when 2:01:02.080 --> 2:01:04.560 you act kind of independent of the state and not 2:01:04.640 --> 2:01:08.040 trying to like, you know, convince politician to do something 2:01:08.120 --> 2:01:12.400 but taking direct action to get your results, your desired result, um, 2:01:12.440 --> 2:01:14.800 you know, and all this kind of stuff uh that 2:01:14.840 --> 2:01:18.920 we're at using like direct democratic consensus methods. Uh. In 2:01:19.000 --> 2:01:22.480 the way that they organized stuff, uh, that was that 2:01:22.560 --> 2:01:24.760 was all basically an artistic And so there was this 2:01:24.800 --> 2:01:29.080 way in which anarchist methods, anarchist tactics, anarchists like attitudes 2:01:29.120 --> 2:01:33.000 towards what activism even is, started filtering into all these 2:01:33.040 --> 2:01:34.960 other movements. And this has been happening a little bit 2:01:35.000 --> 2:01:36.720 the eighties too. So there was like the anti nuclear 2:01:36.720 --> 2:01:39.640 movement had a lot of this, the feminist movement had 2:01:39.680 --> 2:01:42.760 a lot of this. Um, there was a whole um 2:01:43.360 --> 2:01:47.120 stream of single other ecological movements were actually like pioneered 2:01:47.320 --> 2:01:49.280 in a lot of ways by anarchists in the nineties, 2:01:49.640 --> 2:01:53.720 um so, as well as indigenous movements in places like Mexico, Bolivia, etcetera. 2:01:54.000 --> 2:01:57.920 So the this is the kind of like rise of 2:01:57.960 --> 2:02:00.200 this neo anarchist movie you that we're talking about, which 2:02:00.200 --> 2:02:04.560 is not just about anarchists, it's about people who act 2:02:04.600 --> 2:02:08.920 and think like anarchists without necessarily identifying as it. Yeah, 2:02:09.000 --> 2:02:11.040 I mean that's the kind of thing that I hope 2:02:11.040 --> 2:02:12.680 we can kind of more encourage as well in the 2:02:12.720 --> 2:02:18.560 next few decades, as those typicide ideas can be I want, 2:02:18.600 --> 2:02:20.360 I want to make sure that we can take these 2:02:20.400 --> 2:02:22.960 ideas and make them very approachable for people, even if 2:02:22.960 --> 2:02:26.160 they don't use the terms that we might use. You 2:02:26.200 --> 2:02:31.400 can still kind of suggest these types of thoughts, and 2:02:31.400 --> 2:02:34.800 this suggests these types of kind of lenses and viewpoints 2:02:35.400 --> 2:02:36.760 as much as we're about to get to how this 2:02:36.800 --> 2:02:39.960 sort of goes wrong or fails in some sense, Like, 2:02:40.000 --> 2:02:42.240 I think that was the strength of this movement was 2:02:42.280 --> 2:02:49.600 that it was it's tactics really easy to spread, and 2:02:49.840 --> 2:02:51.560 that led to a lot of people adopting me, led 2:02:51.600 --> 2:02:56.400 to it sort of becoming this I guess activist consensus 2:02:56.400 --> 2:02:58.760 that you know, like you using the consensus process. You 2:02:58.760 --> 2:03:01.600 you know, you have sn organizations, you have you do 2:03:01.680 --> 2:03:04.400 direct actions, you mobilize people. You don't have these sort 2:03:04.400 --> 2:03:08.400 of like article like parties. But that yeah, And I 2:03:08.400 --> 2:03:10.560 think I think the next part of the story that 2:03:10.640 --> 2:03:12.880 you want to tell us about, I guess how that 2:03:12.920 --> 2:03:18.800 fell apart and the consequences of that. Basically what ends 2:03:18.920 --> 2:03:24.320 up happening is that, like there was this moment of 2:03:24.960 --> 2:03:28.879 our ascent because I would identify myself as being definitely 2:03:28.920 --> 2:03:32.040 like part of these, uh, the this generalan of you. 2:03:32.160 --> 2:03:33.840 I mean I came, I hopped a board a lot 2:03:33.920 --> 2:03:36.000 later with like Occupy Wall Street, but a lot of 2:03:36.040 --> 2:03:39.280 the kind of explosion of movements that happened around the 2:03:39.280 --> 2:03:41.880 world in again not always right. It started with the 2:03:41.880 --> 2:03:44.480 Arab Spring, which started with somebody seeing themselves on fire 2:03:44.480 --> 2:03:46.919 in Tunisia and like you know, and then that spreads 2:03:46.960 --> 2:03:50.480 to um other countries in them the least and um, 2:03:50.600 --> 2:03:53.280 you know, protests against dictatorships and so on. But it 2:03:53.360 --> 2:03:57.080 starts getting kind of like transported beyond its initial Middle 2:03:57.120 --> 2:03:58.880 Eastern context. And what a lot of people don't know 2:03:59.120 --> 2:04:03.760 is that the uh, the Occupy Wall Street movement in 2:04:03.760 --> 2:04:07.400 North America, uh, and like other movements that you know, 2:04:07.440 --> 2:04:09.520 some of them were called occupy some of them, I'm 2:04:09.520 --> 2:04:11.400 one of them was my Don in Ukraine as a 2:04:11.400 --> 2:04:14.480 matter of fact, um, and other like you know, the 2:04:14.640 --> 2:04:19.360 the Hong Kong, the the the umbrella movements, yeah, the 2:04:19.480 --> 2:04:21.920 and all these kind of movements that that proceeded from 2:04:21.960 --> 2:04:26.200 after a lot of them were basically in a single 2:04:26.400 --> 2:04:30.520 kind of wave, a protracted wave of copycat movements. Uh 2:04:30.600 --> 2:04:32.839 that we're trying to adopt the same kind of tactics 2:04:32.840 --> 2:04:36.880 of like occupying public squares, uh, declaring them basically autonomous, 2:04:36.920 --> 2:04:39.480 and doing like direct democracy in those squares, modeling the 2:04:39.520 --> 2:04:43.480 kind of society that they that people wanted to create. Um, 2:04:43.520 --> 2:04:45.440 you know, in this moment where it seemed like you 2:04:45.480 --> 2:04:51.200 could have these direct democratic uh sorts of movements the 2:04:51.200 --> 2:04:53.760 the end in the US, there's like a direct line 2:04:53.800 --> 2:04:56.360 of succession from like Occupy Wall Street through to like 2:04:56.400 --> 2:04:59.840 Black Lives Matter through to like the anti pipeline and 2:05:00.000 --> 2:05:03.000 Aginist protest. There's a lot of like shared movement experience, 2:05:03.200 --> 2:05:05.160 a lot of the same people showing up to it 2:05:05.240 --> 2:05:08.840 or teaching the next generation UM in those movements. And 2:05:08.840 --> 2:05:11.760 I think this is something I mean, uh, it's difficult 2:05:11.760 --> 2:05:13.960 to find like sources on this, but I mean, y'all 2:05:13.960 --> 2:05:16.120 are involved in social movements. I think that that's like 2:05:16.120 --> 2:05:19.680 a rough that's roughly a description of of what's happened, 2:05:19.720 --> 2:05:24.560 right unless unless we're crazy. Yeah, I think, you know, 2:05:24.760 --> 2:05:28.360 I think I guess what you call the last wave 2:05:28.440 --> 2:05:33.440 that is occupied ice in Yeah, yeah, you know, like 2:05:33.480 --> 2:05:35.320 I remember like that was the sort of mix of 2:05:35.400 --> 2:05:38.760 I guess two crowds. One is you know, I mean, 2:05:38.840 --> 2:05:41.120 like I I remember, it was a bunch of you know, 2:05:41.120 --> 2:05:43.600 people who'd been in occupy and then also it was 2:05:43.680 --> 2:05:47.080 a lot of people who radicalized essentially about Trump. Yeah, 2:05:47.080 --> 2:05:50.320 there was there was a pretty big new wave of people, yeah, 2:05:50.360 --> 2:05:53.880 around around just sixteen and that you know, And gess 2:05:53.880 --> 2:05:55.640 I guess the other thing that that that's going on 2:05:56.120 --> 2:06:02.960 through this period is the the the ascension of consension 2:06:03.040 --> 2:06:05.960 of the right and the return also not just of 2:06:06.640 --> 2:06:09.200 you know, not just the sort of the fascist right, 2:06:09.320 --> 2:06:13.400 but of Leninism and social democracy as well. Yeah. Um 2:06:14.160 --> 2:06:17.280 lappened around like when Bernie Sanders was getting more popular. Yeah. Yeah, 2:06:17.280 --> 2:06:19.000 And I think I think, I think there's there's you know, 2:06:19.040 --> 2:06:20.640 there's a couple of there's like two threats here. There 2:06:20.640 --> 2:06:24.200 there's the sort of Bernie Sanders thread, and then there's 2:06:24.760 --> 2:06:26.960 you know, the the rise of the rise of the Tankies, 2:06:27.040 --> 2:06:29.720 which has to do with Syria and has to do 2:06:29.800 --> 2:06:34.000 with sort of this backlash against the Just and eleven 2:06:34.040 --> 2:06:36.800 revolutions that you know, like some some of that backlash 2:06:36.840 --> 2:06:40.400 turns into like just you know, like aired ones, like 2:06:41.000 --> 2:06:44.920 hard rightobbing. There's never like not a right wing but 2:06:45.000 --> 2:06:47.120 like air to wants turn into just like fire bombing 2:06:47.160 --> 2:06:53.960 cities and um and literally barrel bombing, you know, the 2:06:54.000 --> 2:06:59.240 peaceful protests stuff. Um can overthrow governments if the government 2:06:59.360 --> 2:07:03.280 is not willing to bomb and shoot people who gather 2:07:03.360 --> 2:07:06.080 on mass in the central square because they're afraid of 2:07:06.120 --> 2:07:08.040 what the world's response would be if they did start 2:07:08.120 --> 2:07:10.720 doing that. But you know when Bashar Alasad did that 2:07:10.760 --> 2:07:14.600 in Syria against the democratic opposition movements, UM, you know, 2:07:15.120 --> 2:07:18.640 that basically sent the signal nothing I mean nothing happened 2:07:18.640 --> 2:07:21.160 to us side, right, So that basically sent the signal 2:07:21.240 --> 2:07:25.360 that like oh he had a stress of years. But yeah, yeah, 2:07:25.480 --> 2:07:28.960 right right, yeah, like like you can you can just 2:07:29.240 --> 2:07:32.440 shoot people and bomb them and like it. And that 2:07:32.840 --> 2:07:36.560 basically defanged the kind of central tactic that a lot 2:07:36.600 --> 2:07:38.160 of these movements were trying to do, which is to 2:07:38.200 --> 2:07:41.760 have like large numbers of people do nonviolent civil disobedience 2:07:41.800 --> 2:07:45.080 and then through those like direct actions, cultivate this culture 2:07:45.120 --> 2:07:48.560 of like direct democracy in the hopes that, um, you know, 2:07:48.600 --> 2:07:50.680 the assemblies that are created in that space could in 2:07:50.720 --> 2:07:52.960 some way become the germ of the organs that could 2:07:53.040 --> 2:07:54.840 run society, or at least that's like when it's taken 2:07:54.840 --> 2:07:57.680 to its logical conclusion. Because usually people who are involved 2:07:57.680 --> 2:07:59.360 in this, they get involved in it, they think the 2:07:59.360 --> 2:08:02.560 assembly stuff is really cool, they start learning more about it, 2:08:02.640 --> 2:08:05.400 they get radicalized by being in the assembly because like 2:08:05.440 --> 2:08:07.600 when you're in a direct democratic assembly and you're actually 2:08:07.600 --> 2:08:10.120 making the decisions like together, and then you come to 2:08:10.160 --> 2:08:12.680 an agreement and you execute the decision, you start asking 2:08:12.680 --> 2:08:16.240 yourself like why can't we do everything like this? Um? 2:08:16.720 --> 2:08:20.040 And then um, you know that that's what directs a 2:08:20.080 --> 2:08:23.560 lot of people in this kind of anarchistic direction. But yeah, 2:08:23.640 --> 2:08:25.600 one of the reasons why these movements starts to decline 2:08:25.720 --> 2:08:30.280 is because they get smashed, um. The but I think 2:08:30.320 --> 2:08:35.160 that there's always this other thing going on, which and 2:08:35.200 --> 2:08:38.400 I wonder how y'all felt about this, like reading it, 2:08:38.560 --> 2:08:44.480 like you know, there's there was this kind of both 2:08:44.600 --> 2:08:48.800 like an external critique at first from people like you know, Buskar, Sencrove, 2:08:48.920 --> 2:08:51.720 Jacobin and things like that, but then also like this 2:08:52.200 --> 2:08:55.440 increasingly over the years in the last half of the 2:08:56.280 --> 2:09:00.640 internal critiques of anarchism coming from anarchists themselves, of our 2:09:00.720 --> 2:09:04.160 people in this general kind of mil you libertarian socialism 2:09:04.160 --> 2:09:10.280 talking about how like anarchists didn't have solutions to the 2:09:10.320 --> 2:09:13.720 most pressing crises in the twenty one century. Like, if you, like, 2:09:13.760 --> 2:09:15.800 if you guys had to say, I know it's like 2:09:15.920 --> 2:09:18.120 kind of pretentious, but like, what is the most pressing 2:09:18.120 --> 2:09:20.320 crisis of the century? What are like the top three 2:09:20.560 --> 2:09:22.600 just off the top of your heads without thinking? What 2:09:22.640 --> 2:09:24.320 would you list if you have to list three two 2:09:24.440 --> 2:09:29.879 or three separate things? Climate change, creeping authoritarianism, and rampant 2:09:30.040 --> 2:09:34.640 disinformation about basic facts of reality. Sweet, okay, so let's 2:09:34.640 --> 2:09:39.560 tackle each one of those, right, Like what's what's an 2:09:39.560 --> 2:09:42.600 anarchist got to say about climate change? Well, okay, disrupt 2:09:42.640 --> 2:09:46.800 the pipelines, like you know, do uh, Like, you can't 2:09:46.800 --> 2:09:48.920 have infinite growth on a finite planet, so you have 2:09:48.960 --> 2:09:51.440 to have like, you know, we we have all the slogans, right, 2:09:51.480 --> 2:09:53.080 I mean we've all heard them like a million times. 2:09:53.200 --> 2:09:56.800 Yeah you have the diagnoses of the problem. But yeah, yeah, 2:09:56.800 --> 2:09:59.680 but then like, okay, so how are we going to 2:10:00.360 --> 2:10:02.640 like you know, I guess we're gonna build some co 2:10:02.720 --> 2:10:07.000 ops and then the co ops are gonna democratized production 2:10:07.320 --> 2:10:10.360 and then we can do d growth somehow, but like 2:10:10.760 --> 2:10:14.360 also disrupting existing production. But there's like a missing step here, right, 2:10:14.400 --> 2:10:16.400 because like, you know, the reason why we have all 2:10:16.440 --> 2:10:19.320 this production in certain ways, because the entire economy depends 2:10:19.360 --> 2:10:22.760 on it's been set up that way. Uh So you 2:10:22.840 --> 2:10:25.080 implied in the idea that we're gonna do de growth 2:10:25.120 --> 2:10:27.839 somehows that we need some way of constructing a different economy, 2:10:28.200 --> 2:10:30.360 and how do you construct a different economy right through 2:10:30.520 --> 2:10:33.320 some kind of planning? So really the question is like 2:10:33.560 --> 2:10:37.440 how do you do economic planning? Uh? Second one, um 2:10:37.480 --> 2:10:39.800 I gin a skip creeping authoritarianism for now because that's 2:10:39.840 --> 2:10:42.280 actually like feeding into the more the ending of the essay. 2:10:42.320 --> 2:10:45.880 But the but the other one, right disinformation? Another great question, right, 2:10:46.200 --> 2:10:50.640 like what do you do with social media? Like? Okay, again, 2:10:50.840 --> 2:10:53.840 anarchists talked in general a lot about like, okay, we're 2:10:53.840 --> 2:10:57.760 gonna democratize all the companies because we're democratizing everything. We're 2:10:57.760 --> 2:11:00.600 democratizing neighborhoods or democratizing cities. So it's kind of the 2:11:00.640 --> 2:11:05.360 same thing, turning everything into like a radical direct democracy. Okay, 2:11:05.400 --> 2:11:08.640 But if we're going to have social media, first of all, 2:11:08.680 --> 2:11:11.040 should we like was it a mistake to invent a 2:11:11.120 --> 2:11:14.879 centralized system instead of the more decentralized internet that created 2:11:14.960 --> 2:11:17.320 that existed before social media, Right, that's kind of a 2:11:17.560 --> 2:11:21.280 interesting question. But then assuming that we do, how do 2:11:21.360 --> 2:11:23.960 we restructure it? Not just in terms of how it's managed, 2:11:24.000 --> 2:11:26.400 but like, okay, we have the democracy of Facebook or whatever, 2:11:26.680 --> 2:11:29.520 and let's say that we're the workers at Facebook, what 2:11:29.560 --> 2:11:32.280 do we do, like, how do we structure it so 2:11:32.320 --> 2:11:36.800 that it's not a giant misinformation engine? Right? Like once, 2:11:36.960 --> 2:11:39.680 once you actually have like the responsibility and the power 2:11:39.680 --> 2:11:41.280 of being in the saddle, which is what we spend 2:11:41.360 --> 2:11:43.560 so much of our time kind of just trying to do, 2:11:43.600 --> 2:11:45.560 you have to actually make decisions about what to do. 2:11:45.840 --> 2:11:48.440 And honestly, there aren't that many. I mean, what do 2:11:48.480 --> 2:11:50.680 you what do you do with with the within with 2:11:50.720 --> 2:11:53.920 the utility like that? Like, for example, who ought to 2:11:53.960 --> 2:11:55.800 be in control of the utility? Like that? Is it 2:11:55.840 --> 2:11:59.120 really just the workers of Facebook? Aren't all the people 2:11:59.120 --> 2:12:01.280 who are users it don't they have a right to 2:12:01.360 --> 2:12:04.920 be making decisions about it too? And is it just 2:12:04.960 --> 2:12:08.040 an American institution just because it's an American LLC or 2:12:08.120 --> 2:12:10.240 is it like a global institution because everybody on the 2:12:10.240 --> 2:12:15.200 planets on it um is there? You know, are other 2:12:15.280 --> 2:12:17.760 ways that it could be reconfigured, like fundamentally in terms 2:12:17.800 --> 2:12:20.960 of how users use it. That would change the experience 2:12:20.960 --> 2:12:23.680 in some way to actually make it, uh, make you 2:12:23.800 --> 2:12:25.960 less liable to misinformation. But on the other hand, if 2:12:26.000 --> 2:12:29.520 you try to manipulate people in order to um, you know, 2:12:29.640 --> 2:12:34.480 not see something that's going to be misinformation, isn't that well, 2:12:34.760 --> 2:12:38.960 you know, like censorship or or or some other thing 2:12:39.000 --> 2:12:42.920 that we generally would oppose, right, like the tool of 2:12:43.040 --> 2:12:46.760 centralized social control. So they like, these are really deep questions, 2:12:46.880 --> 2:12:50.720 and again this is generally a kind of silence, and 2:12:50.760 --> 2:12:52.760 of course you know in that case, there's silence from 2:12:52.760 --> 2:12:55.520 the social democrats too, and there's silence from the Leninist 2:12:55.560 --> 2:12:57.360 I mean, well, the Lennis just kind of fantasized about 2:12:57.360 --> 2:13:00.640 turning Facebook into the tool of the central party state 2:13:00.720 --> 2:13:04.080 uses in order to crush dissent forever or whatever. But 2:13:04.200 --> 2:13:06.920 you know, social democrats are like list nationalized Facebook, and 2:13:06.960 --> 2:13:10.880 it's like, you know, yeah, sure we could, we could 2:13:10.960 --> 2:13:12.680 do that. And then you know, the n s A 2:13:12.960 --> 2:13:16.560 owns on Facebook. I'm sure that that's a that's a 2:13:16.560 --> 2:13:20.360 better scenario. Yeah, I mean I tend to think somewhat 2:13:20.400 --> 2:13:23.880 differently about what it means to have an anarchist solution 2:13:23.880 --> 2:13:26.520 to those problems. Like, for example, I don't I don't 2:13:26.520 --> 2:13:29.680 see anarchists or social democrats or leninists having any kind 2:13:29.720 --> 2:13:34.160 of stopping climate change solution um because I don't I 2:13:34.200 --> 2:13:40.480 don't realistically see the organizing potential um capable of actually 2:13:40.760 --> 2:13:44.440 stopping what's going on in any kind of reasonable time frame. 2:13:44.480 --> 2:13:46.960 And I certainly don't think that the existing you know, 2:13:47.200 --> 2:13:50.840 neoliberal structures or the authoritarian structures that exist in you know, 2:13:50.920 --> 2:13:53.720 other countries or in this country are going to stop 2:13:53.720 --> 2:13:56.600 it either. So when I think about solutions to climate 2:13:56.680 --> 2:13:59.480 change from an anarchist perspective, I think about how can 2:13:59.480 --> 2:14:04.040 anarchist to organizing help people deal with the consequences of 2:14:04.080 --> 2:14:08.280 climate change, and I see I tend to see the 2:14:08.360 --> 2:14:12.280 potential for actually like mitigating climate change coming more from 2:14:13.200 --> 2:14:17.640 there's as the consequences of this become more dire to people, 2:14:18.000 --> 2:14:21.440 if anarchists are better, are good at providing relief and 2:14:21.480 --> 2:14:24.560 helping people and organizing through that, and eventually there's some 2:14:24.600 --> 2:14:27.480 potential to actually get people organized to stop the causes 2:14:27.520 --> 2:14:31.880 of the problem. But um, I just don't. I'm not 2:14:31.960 --> 2:14:34.960 an optimist of about our ability to stop the worst 2:14:34.960 --> 2:14:38.760 of it at this point. Um, especially not after the 2:14:38.760 --> 2:14:40.480 most recent I p c C report. And I guess 2:14:40.480 --> 2:14:42.640 I'm kind of in the same boat when it comes 2:14:42.680 --> 2:14:47.840 to disinformation. UM. I And this is not just like anarchists. 2:14:47.920 --> 2:14:51.720 I feel like lack, as you've stated, at a like 2:14:51.880 --> 2:14:53.760 a good idea about like what do we do with Facebook, 2:14:53.800 --> 2:14:55.200 what we do with you do, what do we do 2:14:55.280 --> 2:14:57.480 with the way all of these things are set up 2:14:57.480 --> 2:15:00.920 in the harms that they do at scale. Um, Nobody 2:15:01.240 --> 2:15:04.120 and I include the people currently in charge, has any 2:15:04.800 --> 2:15:07.720 real good ideas for that because they haven't. Like I've 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:09.760 been working in this space for a very long time, 2:15:09.840 --> 2:15:12.080 I've I've spent a lot of time talking with and 2:15:13.160 --> 2:15:15.640 debating with a lot of the folks who are leading 2:15:15.680 --> 2:15:19.480 minds kind of in the fight against disinformation, and I 2:15:19.520 --> 2:15:23.720 just don't feel like there's any sort of solution that 2:15:23.840 --> 2:15:26.720 is an immediate term solution because so many the problem 2:15:26.760 --> 2:15:29.120 is so advanced as it is, so as I guess 2:15:29.160 --> 2:15:32.800 that's kind of like where I land on a lot 2:15:32.800 --> 2:15:35.240 of this stuff is we certainly need to be thinking 2:15:35.280 --> 2:15:40.040 about solutions, but I kind of like, I think it's 2:15:40.120 --> 2:15:42.240 less likely that there's going to be like you were 2:15:42.280 --> 2:15:45.040 you were saying the kind of debate is between is 2:15:45.040 --> 2:15:47.520 there some way of like reforming or fixing making Facebook 2:15:47.520 --> 2:15:49.440 more democratic, or is it just we need to decide 2:15:49.440 --> 2:15:51.680 that maybe we don't have some of this stuff. And 2:15:51.720 --> 2:15:54.360 I tend to land towards that that, Like, well, I 2:15:54.440 --> 2:15:57.520 think the solution is going to be maybe maybe Facebook's 2:15:57.520 --> 2:15:59.920 a bad idea, maybe we should maybe we shouldn't have. 2:16:00.680 --> 2:16:03.480 There's aspects of it that are necessary, obviously, and I 2:16:03.480 --> 2:16:07.280 think aspects of things like Telegram and Twitter that are useful, 2:16:07.320 --> 2:16:13.960 But um, I think the they're also fundamentally tied to 2:16:14.120 --> 2:16:17.280 the algorithms that drive them, which is also what drives 2:16:17.280 --> 2:16:19.560 so much of the toxic aspects that I think if 2:16:19.560 --> 2:16:24.400 you're divorcing the medium from the algorithm, you're talking about 2:16:24.440 --> 2:16:28.000 something that is very different and longer than media. It's 2:16:28.080 --> 2:16:30.960 no longer than media. It's it's so radically different that 2:16:31.040 --> 2:16:33.320 it's just it's it's not even useful to compare them. 2:16:33.360 --> 2:16:36.279 It's like it's like it's like comparing Discord to Facebook. 2:16:36.320 --> 2:16:39.080 It's like they're not they don't operate the same way. 2:16:39.400 --> 2:16:42.760 That's the Yeah, that's exactly kind of where I where 2:16:42.760 --> 2:16:46.120 I tend to be on on that, And I know 2:16:46.200 --> 2:16:51.800 that's not like I I to the extent that like, uh, 2:16:51.840 --> 2:16:54.640 that's pessimistic. I guess I am kind of pessimistic about 2:16:54.640 --> 2:16:58.879 anarchisms ability to stop the worst of things that's happening. 2:16:59.160 --> 2:17:02.360 Where I kind of look at myself as an optimistic 2:17:02.520 --> 2:17:06.520 anarchist is in the I believe anarchism offers solutions when 2:17:06.560 --> 2:17:08.600 these things go as badly as they're going to do 2:17:08.680 --> 2:17:11.440 in a way that you know, the present systems or 2:17:11.720 --> 2:17:16.320 you know, more authoritarian systems that people propose can't solve 2:17:16.520 --> 2:17:19.520 the worst consequences of these problems as as well. That's 2:17:19.560 --> 2:17:23.280 that's kind of where I feel like it is can 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:25.440 feel a lot simpler to default to like the dual 2:17:25.480 --> 2:17:29.280 power framework of a lot of these things, because otherwise 2:17:29.600 --> 2:17:31.880 the problems are so complex that you cannot approach them 2:17:31.920 --> 2:17:34.520 from from from every angle, because you really do need 2:17:34.560 --> 2:17:37.640 to simplify and condense them and collapse them into something 2:17:37.640 --> 2:17:39.760 that is more simplified, which often results in like a 2:17:39.879 --> 2:17:44.480 dual power kind of work for what you actually start doing. Yeah, 2:17:44.520 --> 2:17:46.760 and I think you have to. I think if you're 2:17:47.600 --> 2:17:50.879 an insurrectionist, if you're a revolutionary, whether it you're an 2:17:50.879 --> 2:17:54.959 anarchist or or you know, a Leninist or whatever, you 2:17:55.000 --> 2:17:57.959 have to be looking at what's actually happening in Ukraine 2:17:58.040 --> 2:18:02.080 right now and recognize that. All right, Well, to what 2:18:02.200 --> 2:18:03.760 extent do you think you're going to be able to 2:18:03.840 --> 2:18:07.000 organize people in such a way that allows them to 2:18:07.040 --> 2:18:10.600 deal with thermobaric weapons? You know? In what way are 2:18:10.640 --> 2:18:13.760 you going to organize people that allows them to effectively 2:18:13.840 --> 2:18:18.000 resist cluster musician munitions? Um? And I think that when 2:18:18.080 --> 2:18:19.800 you kind of look at it that way, which is 2:18:19.840 --> 2:18:22.800 what it would take to overthrow any of the large 2:18:22.800 --> 2:18:25.920 hegemonic powers in the world right now, a much more 2:18:26.000 --> 2:18:30.000 realistic set of solutions is all right, well, let's work 2:18:30.120 --> 2:18:35.200 on building power by building organizations and communities that are 2:18:35.240 --> 2:18:38.480 capable of taking care of themselves in the holes that 2:18:38.600 --> 2:18:42.560 these powers are increasingly going to be experiencing because because 2:18:42.600 --> 2:18:45.720 they too are crumbling. And that's much smarter than being like, 2:18:45.760 --> 2:18:47.880 all right, well, I'm gonna try to get a bunch 2:18:47.920 --> 2:18:50.320 of my friends with rifles and and arm up a 2:18:50.360 --> 2:18:53.160 couple of drones and and go up against you know, 2:18:53.240 --> 2:18:55.920 people who have access to m l R s, you know, 2:18:56.000 --> 2:18:59.800 weapons systems and whatnot. Yeah. No, I think that that's 2:18:59.800 --> 2:19:03.800 a really great point. Um. I the way that I 2:19:03.800 --> 2:19:08.119 would think about it is the starting with the big 2:19:08.120 --> 2:19:10.880 picture problems is a bit misleading because, as you said, 2:19:11.320 --> 2:19:14.360 like nobody, it's quite like that nobody has solutions to 2:19:14.400 --> 2:19:20.360 these problems, certainly the social Democrats. Yeah, you know, and 2:19:20.680 --> 2:19:22.240 I say this as somebody who's like half a social 2:19:22.280 --> 2:19:24.640 Democrat by temperament. Um, it would be really nice if 2:19:24.640 --> 2:19:26.440 we like did it a little social democratic government and 2:19:26.480 --> 2:19:29.360 they swooped in and you know, did like new deal stuff. 2:19:29.400 --> 2:19:31.280 I like new deal stuff. I like w p A 2:19:31.320 --> 2:19:34.720 stuff as much as the next uh. You know, um 2:19:34.959 --> 2:19:40.160 person who likes arts programs and infrastructure development. Well, you know, 2:19:40.280 --> 2:19:44.360 some infrastructure development, not others. Right, the war the war 2:19:44.480 --> 2:19:47.840 complex we can do a little without. But you know, 2:19:48.080 --> 2:19:52.600 the thing about it is those big problems. You're right, 2:19:52.600 --> 2:19:53.920 it looks like there's not going to be like a 2:19:53.920 --> 2:19:56.560 big solution, uh, and that we're going to kind of 2:19:56.600 --> 2:19:58.920 have to cope with the consequences of of it, at 2:19:59.000 --> 2:20:04.200 least at first. Yeah, even coping this is this is 2:20:04.240 --> 2:20:06.160 kind of where I think the real kind of substance 2:20:06.440 --> 2:20:09.760 of of of the problem that libertarian socialist are facing 2:20:09.840 --> 2:20:13.760 right now. Even coping would require a greater level of 2:20:13.840 --> 2:20:17.240 organization than we have proven able to muster up to now. 2:20:17.680 --> 2:20:21.120 Not because the methods that we choose don't work, because 2:20:21.120 --> 2:20:23.480 in fact, as you point out and as I actually 2:20:23.640 --> 2:20:27.080 really want to forcefully argue, and because because we do 2:20:27.160 --> 2:20:30.000 in the end of the essay, like authoritarian methods don't 2:20:30.040 --> 2:20:32.280 work and can't work for a lot of the specific 2:20:32.280 --> 2:20:35.560 problems that we face. Uh, And history shows that very definitively. 2:20:35.959 --> 2:20:42.240 But um, there is also a serious way in which 2:20:42.360 --> 2:20:47.560 even kind of developing these like you know, local highly 2:20:47.680 --> 2:20:50.840 like you know, rooted in a community, uh like direct 2:20:50.840 --> 2:20:55.200 democratic institutions that control real resources, scaling that up to 2:20:55.240 --> 2:20:58.200 the point where it actually could start replacing some of 2:20:58.240 --> 2:21:03.000 the gaps left behind by uh you know, uh states 2:21:03.000 --> 2:21:05.920 and capitalist firms that are too dysfunctional or too focused 2:21:05.920 --> 2:21:08.040 on their own goals to to to to meet those 2:21:08.080 --> 2:21:11.520 needs that would actually require us to be able, for example, 2:21:11.800 --> 2:21:16.560 to know how to build up a cooperative sector in 2:21:16.600 --> 2:21:19.800 a city, or how to kind of like network the 2:21:19.840 --> 2:21:23.600 tennis unions that already exist you know, across different uh 2:21:23.840 --> 2:21:27.039 you know, regions, maybe even across like a continent, and 2:21:27.080 --> 2:21:30.680 then construct like the way in which they self manage 2:21:31.360 --> 2:21:34.800 each other or or not each other self managed together 2:21:34.920 --> 2:21:37.160 the you know, the the larger group or it would 2:21:37.160 --> 2:21:38.800 require and you know, there's a lot of people working 2:21:38.800 --> 2:21:42.800 on these problems, but sometimes there is a kind of 2:21:42.840 --> 2:21:45.280 like you know, you'll you'll see this like obstacle in 2:21:45.320 --> 2:21:47.760 the road because for example, like what do you do 2:21:48.200 --> 2:21:52.560 when the it might not even be the state properly speaking, right, 2:21:52.560 --> 2:21:55.080 it might be like a posse that's funded by some 2:21:55.240 --> 2:21:59.280 rich billionaire asshole who's got like his uh, you know, 2:21:59.360 --> 2:22:01.280 his notion to some people are just better than others 2:22:01.280 --> 2:22:03.520 and that you should institute the dictatorship of the tech 2:22:03.560 --> 2:22:07.280 bros um, you know. And then that billionaire's funding a 2:22:07.320 --> 2:22:09.480 bunch of people who have got now like you know, 2:22:09.800 --> 2:22:13.480 some industrial access to industrial infrastructure, and they don't like 2:22:13.560 --> 2:22:15.760 the fact that you're doing your d I Y like 2:22:15.920 --> 2:22:19.280 you know, commune or whatever stuff in there on their turf. 2:22:19.640 --> 2:22:21.920 So how do you fight back against that? I mean, 2:22:21.959 --> 2:22:24.120 some of it you can fight back against that kind 2:22:24.120 --> 2:22:26.240 of our current level of capacity, but some of it 2:22:26.240 --> 2:22:28.280 does kind of require us to start thinking like, well, 2:22:28.760 --> 2:22:31.720 how do you how do you build up financial independence? 2:22:32.120 --> 2:22:33.480 What like, how do you build up the kind of 2:22:33.480 --> 2:22:35.360 independence where it's like if we get kicked off of 2:22:35.360 --> 2:22:38.800 the capitalist uh social media, for example, which is a 2:22:38.800 --> 2:22:41.640 great deal of what we use for fundraising, what kind 2:22:41.640 --> 2:22:45.320 of institutions could we create that would be like alternatives, um, 2:22:45.400 --> 2:22:48.119 that are not like the ones that the Nazis created 2:22:48.160 --> 2:22:50.640 when there was a purge of some of them that 2:22:50.800 --> 2:22:53.480 gab like highly dysfunctional, like you know, it didn't even 2:22:53.560 --> 2:22:55.680 work for them. Uh not that I mean, I'm happy 2:22:55.680 --> 2:22:57.480 about that, but like you know, my point is, like 2:22:57.760 --> 2:22:59.920 the same thing could happen to us, So what would 2:23:00.040 --> 2:23:03.280 you do? Um the like there there are all these 2:23:03.360 --> 2:23:07.000 kinds of things that are more little picture questions in 2:23:07.000 --> 2:23:10.039 a way, but they scale up relatively quickly to at 2:23:10.120 --> 2:23:12.640 least like medium sized questions where we need this kind 2:23:12.680 --> 2:23:17.560 of like um, these these because because part of what 2:23:17.600 --> 2:23:20.120 it is is also that like it's not that these 2:23:20.200 --> 2:23:24.720 questions are impossible, it's that they're kind of neglected. And 2:23:24.800 --> 2:23:29.880 there's um there, there's these uh the thinkers like Christian Williams, 2:23:29.920 --> 2:23:31.840 who is an anarchist from the Pacific Northwest, who wrote 2:23:31.840 --> 2:23:35.520 a pamphlet about this called Wither Anarchism, And there was 2:23:35.560 --> 2:23:40.879 another pamphlet, uh an Essay and CounterPunch by a person 2:23:40.959 --> 2:23:44.320 named Gabrielle Coon who's an autonomous Marxist basically like a 2:23:44.360 --> 2:23:49.360 libertarian Marxist Marxist anarchist type um called What Happened to 2:23:49.360 --> 2:23:51.320 the Anarchist Century? And both of those essays, which I 2:23:51.360 --> 2:23:54.320 highly recommend that people read, they may they make points 2:23:54.680 --> 2:23:59.000 basically like this, you know, like where where the focus 2:23:59.040 --> 2:24:01.600 on how to construct those institutions and the nitty gritty 2:24:01.640 --> 2:24:03.680 of how to do that has kind of receded from 2:24:04.040 --> 2:24:08.720 anarchism um as it's actually practiced. Uh In like so 2:24:08.760 --> 2:24:12.000 there's like a rhetoric of revolutionary transformation, but not always 2:24:12.040 --> 2:24:14.920 the attention to the nitty gritty of how you actually 2:24:14.959 --> 2:24:19.320 can like build resilient institutions that actually like carry that 2:24:19.400 --> 2:24:22.400 through which you know, a hundred years ago people talking 2:24:22.400 --> 2:24:24.920 about like the one big union and the general strike. 2:24:25.240 --> 2:24:28.480 But that's kind of like, um, well, a it didn't 2:24:28.520 --> 2:24:30.000 work in exactly the way that they were thinking it. 2:24:30.080 --> 2:24:32.920 What even in the most successful revolutions like in Spain 2:24:33.160 --> 2:24:37.200 and b it was also like the there's there's there's 2:24:37.200 --> 2:24:40.200 a certain way in which our tensions are focused on 2:24:40.360 --> 2:24:42.360 other things. And it's not that those things are bad, 2:24:42.520 --> 2:24:45.240 it's just that like there's been this kind of neglect 2:24:45.440 --> 2:24:49.240 of the question of large scale organization and how you 2:24:49.320 --> 2:24:52.920 do coordination, like you know, in order to tackle problems 2:24:52.920 --> 2:24:54.600 that are kind of like at the scale that that 2:24:54.680 --> 2:24:57.560 I was talking about before um And so basically the 2:24:57.640 --> 2:25:00.440 argument of the essay is that in the absence of that, 2:25:00.920 --> 2:25:05.840 like for the socialist movement that emerged after turned away 2:25:06.200 --> 2:25:09.160 from neo anarchist, I'm thinking basically that it had no solutions, 2:25:09.160 --> 2:25:11.720 which I don't think it's true either, but it's like, 2:25:11.840 --> 2:25:14.360 you know, like rather it was true in the moment, 2:25:14.400 --> 2:25:16.959 but it doesn't have to be true, but it was true, 2:25:17.000 --> 2:25:18.840 but enough people thought that it was that they turned 2:25:18.879 --> 2:25:21.720 to like the social democratic route. But with the failure 2:25:21.760 --> 2:25:24.560 of Corbin and Bernie that kind of burned a lot 2:25:24.600 --> 2:25:27.320 of people out too, and a lot of what is 2:25:27.360 --> 2:25:30.160 seems like it's coming up now, and I'm wondering, I 2:25:30.160 --> 2:25:33.000 wonder what you guys think of this. Like a lot 2:25:33.080 --> 2:25:35.720 of the people that we see showing up in movement 2:25:35.760 --> 2:25:38.760 spaces who we see kind of like getting politically activated 2:25:38.760 --> 2:25:41.039 for the first time or whatever, a lot of those 2:25:41.040 --> 2:25:44.959 people are really interested in Leninism and on specifically, because 2:25:45.000 --> 2:25:46.520 I don't know, I don't know how true that is. 2:25:46.800 --> 2:25:48.680 That's at least that that's that's that that that part 2:25:48.720 --> 2:25:50.680 is not true at least at least at least here 2:25:50.680 --> 2:25:56.959 in Portland. Plant no other no other part of the 2:25:56.959 --> 2:26:00.600 country like Portland, other than maybe Eugene. Like okay, that's 2:26:00.640 --> 2:26:04.560 that's fair. That's a little bit too. Like Portland. Portland 2:26:04.640 --> 2:26:06.600 is a big enough anarchist city that there are entire 2:26:07.120 --> 2:26:10.760 decade long like like into anarchist wors that no one 2:26:10.800 --> 2:26:12.920 else in the US has ever heard of, that are 2:26:12.959 --> 2:26:15.920 like the most important thing that's ever happened in Portland's 2:26:15.920 --> 2:26:19.879 Oh boy, welcome to the Green Red. Let me tell you, Chris, 2:26:20.000 --> 2:26:22.840 you have just piste off sixty people who could not 2:26:23.000 --> 2:26:26.680 explain to you if you gave them a year, could 2:26:26.720 --> 2:26:31.680 not explain to you why they're angry. And I mean 2:26:31.680 --> 2:26:34.400 to be to be fair, like I I am an 2:26:34.400 --> 2:26:36.280 anarchist in Chicago. When the first time I introduced too 2:26:36.280 --> 2:26:38.240 of my Twitter mutual together, they almost got a fist fight. 2:26:38.280 --> 2:26:43.560 So like, yeah, that's that completely scans Even with like 2:26:43.680 --> 2:26:46.520 ds A stuff, I feel like there's there was at 2:26:46.560 --> 2:26:48.680 least was a trend a little bit to stay away 2:26:48.840 --> 2:26:53.640 from some of the more Russia communist kind of like 2:26:53.760 --> 2:26:56.760 types of aesthetics and ideas because it is a turn 2:26:56.800 --> 2:27:00.240 off for so many people, and it does know just 2:27:00.320 --> 2:27:04.200 and it has like encouraging forefront a form of authoritarianism 2:27:04.240 --> 2:27:08.720 that maybe is not great. Yeah, I don't know, Like 2:27:08.760 --> 2:27:12.160 I've seen sort of both friends in Walka. So I 2:27:12.240 --> 2:27:17.600 think the last like a year has been very different 2:27:17.600 --> 2:27:20.320 than I think the previous five. I've seen it on Twitter, 2:27:20.560 --> 2:27:23.480 but I don't know how much it expands into as 2:27:23.640 --> 2:27:26.520 I think. I think it's like I saw things happens 2:27:26.520 --> 2:27:28.440 in the d s A is that the Leninists essentially 2:27:28.480 --> 2:27:32.040 took over the International Committee and they had this kind 2:27:32.040 --> 2:27:34.120 of delicious divisional label inside the d s A where 2:27:34.160 --> 2:27:36.000 like you have like you have a part of the 2:27:36.080 --> 2:27:38.400 d s A that's essentially a social democratic machine, and 2:27:38.400 --> 2:27:40.200 then you have the International Committee, which is which is 2:27:40.240 --> 2:27:44.320 the foreign policy wing essentially run by by essentially run 2:27:44.320 --> 2:27:46.480 by by the Leninists. And I think, I don't know, 2:27:46.560 --> 2:27:47.960 I think I saw it there. And the other thing 2:27:47.959 --> 2:27:50.360 I think I saw a lot of that I've seen 2:27:50.360 --> 2:27:52.560 even from people who are ordinarily not Stalinist, is what 2:27:52.720 --> 2:27:54.200 you know, part of what was talking about this is 2:27:54.320 --> 2:27:57.240 the sort of like climate Stalinism or like climate wow 2:27:57.320 --> 2:28:02.680 stuff like that. That is a huge problem that you know, 2:28:03.000 --> 2:28:05.360 I mean, I think I think part of it also 2:28:05.400 --> 2:28:07.200 just has to do with the fact that people don't 2:28:08.640 --> 2:28:11.560 like Okay, so like we we have actually existing uh 2:28:12.000 --> 2:28:14.560 climate Leninism, like we have it. It's it's it's it's 2:28:14.600 --> 2:28:18.840 it's China, like the CCP changed, it's literally changed. State 2:28:18.879 --> 2:28:22.720 ideology in in in the mid two thousand tends, as 2:28:22.879 --> 2:28:24.800 you know, as an attempt to deal to deal with 2:28:24.879 --> 2:28:27.640 with with with pollution climate change. It did nothing, Like 2:28:27.680 --> 2:28:30.240 they pressed every price. It doesn't it didn't like, it 2:28:30.280 --> 2:28:32.640 didn't work. Yeah, yeah, I mean they did corbon markets, 2:28:32.680 --> 2:28:35.200 they did. They literally just banned coal and entire provinces 2:28:35.240 --> 2:28:38.360 and it didn't work. They they changed your contratvaluations, I 2:28:38.600 --> 2:28:44.640 I people. Yeah, Like La lays this out specifically with 2:28:44.720 --> 2:28:48.119 China to an excruciating degree, like it like in detail. 2:28:48.320 --> 2:28:51.040 If you're really interested in this type of like climate 2:28:51.120 --> 2:28:53.800 left authoritarianism. They call it climate moun in the book, 2:28:53.800 --> 2:28:56.080 but you can call it climate climate Leninism, you can 2:28:56.120 --> 2:28:59.480 call it whatever. But they lay out how it could 2:28:59.520 --> 2:29:02.480 work and how use cases of it have not worked. 2:29:03.040 --> 2:29:05.640 Um to a pretty pretty intense degree. If you're interested 2:29:05.680 --> 2:29:07.640 in that, I would recommend reading the book Climate. Leviathan 2:29:07.760 --> 2:29:13.640 definitely influenced a large portion of the writing for this show. Yeah, 2:29:13.720 --> 2:29:16.039 and I mean to your point, I don't think that 2:29:16.080 --> 2:29:18.560 this is the only trend I do. I agree with 2:29:18.600 --> 2:29:22.720 you that out of like the conjuncture, there was this 2:29:22.920 --> 2:29:25.959 um I think that a lot of the more like 2:29:26.080 --> 2:29:29.960 establishment reformist aspects of the movement were discredited and that 2:29:30.000 --> 2:29:32.720 pushed people in different radical directions, like one of which 2:29:32.800 --> 2:29:35.680 very much is anarchism and libertarian socialism. I am seeing 2:29:35.680 --> 2:29:38.200 a lot more faces that are interested in in in 2:29:38.240 --> 2:29:41.360 those questions for sure. Uh. And that's kind of counter 2:29:41.440 --> 2:29:43.360 to the trend that I was describing from the last 2:29:43.360 --> 2:29:45.600 like five years of like, you know, people becoming more 2:29:45.600 --> 2:29:49.400 disinterested because of the real or perceived lack of solutions. However, 2:29:50.080 --> 2:29:52.240 I do think that it's important, and this is kind 2:29:52.240 --> 2:29:55.039 of following on Chris's Climate Leninism point, to understand that 2:29:55.040 --> 2:29:58.120 there's at least a counter trend where a lot of 2:29:58.120 --> 2:30:01.400 people are have not only moved away from libertarian socialism, 2:30:01.600 --> 2:30:03.680 have not only moved but they've also moved away from 2:30:03.720 --> 2:30:07.840 democratic socialism. And if you follow that pattern, which is 2:30:07.879 --> 2:30:10.200 a pattern that I at least have seen within the 2:30:10.280 --> 2:30:13.320 d s A, within various trade unions, in a lot 2:30:13.360 --> 2:30:16.840 of among a lot of like intelligencia type people like journalists, professors, 2:30:16.879 --> 2:30:21.360 blah blah, you see a very common set of arguments. 2:30:21.440 --> 2:30:23.760 And I think it's very clear that as the century 2:30:23.800 --> 2:30:26.600 proceeds and the crises get worse and start killing like 2:30:26.640 --> 2:30:29.040 even larger numbers of people than they already are, we're 2:30:29.040 --> 2:30:32.720 going to see this argument a lot more. Um and 2:30:32.720 --> 2:30:35.280 and the argument is something like this. I mean, there's 2:30:35.280 --> 2:30:38.280 a quote from a tweet. Uh And and you know, 2:30:38.360 --> 2:30:42.680 one could argue that the tweet doesn't matter, but you 2:30:42.720 --> 2:30:46.600 are naive if you think this is the tweet climate 2:30:46.920 --> 2:30:48.840 You are naive if you think climate change can ever 2:30:48.879 --> 2:30:53.160 be solved without an authoritarian government at this point. That's 2:30:53.240 --> 2:30:55.800 and that's that's the whole thing. So it's a it's 2:30:55.800 --> 2:30:59.320 a nasty little tweet because it's ambiguous, right, it has 2:30:59.360 --> 2:31:01.680 this like shocking and scandalous effects. You know, we need 2:31:01.680 --> 2:31:05.480 authoritarianism to to to solve climate change. The scandalous you know, 2:31:06.080 --> 2:31:08.800 bougois or whatever. But then it's like okay, wait, but 2:31:09.280 --> 2:31:11.320 what do you mean by authoritarian? Am I just being 2:31:11.400 --> 2:31:17.040 hysterical reactor. It's the same as saying you're naive if 2:31:17.160 --> 2:31:20.640 you think that, um, climate change can be solved without 2:31:21.400 --> 2:31:24.760 nuclear power, or climate change can be solved without really 2:31:24.760 --> 2:31:28.880 big hammers, Like we have authoritarian governments, we have nuclear power, 2:31:28.959 --> 2:31:31.039 we have really big hammers, and climate change does not 2:31:31.120 --> 2:31:33.200 be solved been solved. Is it possible that any of 2:31:33.240 --> 2:31:35.840 those things might be a part of a theoretical solution 2:31:35.879 --> 2:31:40.160 that may happen someday, Yes, but it hasn't. And there's like, 2:31:40.440 --> 2:31:43.640 if you're trying to say that authoritarian governments are better 2:31:43.760 --> 2:31:47.680 at dealing with climate change than the governments that currently 2:31:47.680 --> 2:31:50.600 dominate Number one, hell of a lot of authoritarian governments 2:31:50.600 --> 2:31:53.640 are responsible for our current situation are climate change. Number 2:31:53.640 --> 2:31:57.000 two the Soviet Union, which I suspect most of these 2:31:57.040 --> 2:32:00.440 people see as a guiding light. Horrible for the vironment, 2:32:00.600 --> 2:32:04.039 turned the largest body of water in Eurasia into a 2:32:04.160 --> 2:32:09.000 poison lake. Yes, right, not not not good at the environment, 2:32:09.160 --> 2:32:12.280 you know. And here's here's what's interesting about the thing. 2:32:12.320 --> 2:32:15.119 To me. The other thing that it's doing is kind 2:32:15.160 --> 2:32:18.840 of signaling that it's like patently ridiculous to oppose this 2:32:18.879 --> 2:32:23.879 idea without specifying what the idea is like and like 2:32:23.920 --> 2:32:26.520 in other words, authoritarianism like but like, I mean, let's 2:32:26.600 --> 2:32:30.920 let's be blunt right, what they're implying as a Leninist 2:32:31.120 --> 2:32:33.680 is the one party state, the secret police, press censorship, 2:32:33.680 --> 2:32:37.160 in the command economy. So does that help you fight 2:32:37.160 --> 2:32:39.680 climate cheese? That's actually an interesting and a kind of 2:32:39.720 --> 2:32:42.600 like you know, distant five thousand foot view, you know, 2:32:42.680 --> 2:32:45.680 from the God's eye view or whatever, like, uh, the 2:32:45.959 --> 2:32:49.000 that's an interesting technical question. Do these institutions actually help 2:32:49.080 --> 2:32:51.080 or hinder a response? But we're not even having that 2:32:51.080 --> 2:32:54.560 conversation because instead it's this kind of underhanded attempt to 2:32:54.600 --> 2:32:57.280 get you to think that. So again, does a tweet matter? Well, 2:32:57.600 --> 2:32:59.840 I think a tweet matters if it comes from a 2:33:00.000 --> 2:33:02.160 member of the National Political Committee of the d s A, 2:33:03.040 --> 2:33:05.560 because at least ostensibly if d s A is, which 2:33:05.600 --> 2:33:08.800 is who the person who did that tweet? Because at 2:33:08.840 --> 2:33:10.959 least ostensibly, if d s A is a mass movement, 2:33:11.000 --> 2:33:13.920 as it purports to be the mass movement of socialists 2:33:13.920 --> 2:33:16.720 in the US, and you know, and and the National 2:33:16.760 --> 2:33:20.000 Political Committee is ostensibly the leadership of the d s 2:33:20.200 --> 2:33:23.440 which I personally don't believe, but that's certainly how they 2:33:23.480 --> 2:33:27.760 think of themselves. Um. Then this indicates that the largest 2:33:27.840 --> 2:33:30.800 most important socialist mass movement in the US, at least 2:33:30.879 --> 2:33:35.480 self branded UH, has people in its leadership who believe 2:33:35.680 --> 2:33:39.600 that the secret police might help in addressing climate change. 2:33:39.760 --> 2:33:42.680 That's an interesting thing and it's also very disturbing. And 2:33:42.680 --> 2:33:47.039 the thing is this, this person is not actually like important, 2:33:47.120 --> 2:33:50.720 He's a symptom because this is something that's happening across 2:33:50.800 --> 2:33:54.360 the board. And a more intellectually serious version of this 2:33:54.480 --> 2:33:59.560 argument was put forward by the Marxist intellectual and historian 2:34:00.080 --> 2:34:03.720 um a professor of human ecology called Andreas mom And 2:34:03.760 --> 2:34:05.960 people who are really into like Mars Nerds stuff will 2:34:06.000 --> 2:34:09.880 probably have heard, Yeah, what a very good book called 2:34:09.879 --> 2:34:13.039 Fossil Capital. Everything he's written after Fossil Capital is a disaster. 2:34:14.760 --> 2:34:18.560 I like some of the sabotage. It's it's I mean, 2:34:18.600 --> 2:34:22.879 it's a little romantic and impractical. He wrote an ethical 2:34:22.920 --> 2:34:25.880 discourse instead of a thing about like the risk of 2:34:25.959 --> 2:34:30.800 eco sabotage, which is the actual important part, also the 2:34:30.840 --> 2:34:35.000 degree to which it can matter because eco sabotage. There's 2:34:35.000 --> 2:34:37.840 this idea on the left that like what we need 2:34:37.879 --> 2:34:40.760 to do is be targeting fossil fuel infrastructure. And again 2:34:40.879 --> 2:34:42.920 it's like what it's It's like what that ds A 2:34:43.040 --> 2:34:47.119 dude said, Like, yeah, that could theoretically be a part 2:34:47.240 --> 2:34:51.240 of but also process. If it's like nine dudes who 2:34:51.320 --> 2:34:53.440 do it and then they go to prison or get shot, 2:34:53.800 --> 2:34:57.000 well that doesn't really fix climate change. I think the book, 2:34:57.360 --> 2:35:00.160 the book A Ministry with the Future really lays out 2:35:00.240 --> 2:35:03.040 all the all kind of like the best case scenario 2:35:03.600 --> 2:35:05.080 for all these types of things and how they can 2:35:05.120 --> 2:35:08.959 work together to overall trend in this direction. Because yeah, 2:35:09.080 --> 2:35:12.120 that type of like eco sabotage in conjunction with other 2:35:12.160 --> 2:35:15.240 like political effects can be impactful on what things happen, 2:35:15.560 --> 2:35:19.520 but it's won't necessarily be you know, it's not it's 2:35:19.560 --> 2:35:21.240 not as simple as we would like it to be, 2:35:21.240 --> 2:35:24.920 because yeah, it's it turns out a complex world has 2:35:24.920 --> 2:35:28.520 complex consequences and complex and I think I think this 2:35:28.600 --> 2:35:30.080 is you know, the trend that Mom was on, the 2:35:30.080 --> 2:35:32.080 trend on that you know, there's there's a big environmental 2:35:32.080 --> 2:35:35.800 authoritarian like thing among among liberals. This is a huge thing. 2:35:35.879 --> 2:35:38.160 In political science was a big thing, and in ecological 2:35:38.200 --> 2:35:41.160 studies that was essentially making a similar argument to to 2:35:41.280 --> 2:35:42.920 what I'm almost making this like, well, okay, you need 2:35:43.040 --> 2:35:47.720 some kind of air quotes vague authoritarianism to deal to 2:35:48.000 --> 2:35:54.360 climate change, and you know, it's it's it's it's basically 2:35:54.360 --> 2:35:57.440 this this attempt. There's like these people have have seen 2:35:57.520 --> 2:36:00.600 climate change, but they have no act solution to it, 2:36:00.600 --> 2:36:02.879 and so they wave their hands and pretend that like 2:36:02.959 --> 2:36:04.760 this like you know, the state is going to descend 2:36:04.760 --> 2:36:07.720 from this guy and save them, and it's not. And 2:36:07.760 --> 2:36:11.160 I think that's you know, I think I think we're 2:36:11.200 --> 2:36:15.720 we're sort of I don't know, I think as we 2:36:15.879 --> 2:36:17.360 just I guess kind of wrap this up because we 2:36:17.879 --> 2:36:21.520 unfortunately they're running out of time. But you know, this 2:36:21.640 --> 2:36:24.320 like this exact moment like these like few weeks are 2:36:24.400 --> 2:36:26.800 this moment of incredible like rupture on the left right, 2:36:26.800 --> 2:36:28.360 because we we have we've had we've had in some 2:36:28.360 --> 2:36:31.000 way social democrats be discredited by the fact that like 2:36:31.120 --> 2:36:33.720 Corbin and Sanders both lost, right, their political project has 2:36:33.720 --> 2:36:37.520 been discredited. Um, we've had a serious sort of anexist failures. 2:36:37.520 --> 2:36:39.680 But then you know, and in the last couple of weeks, right, 2:36:39.720 --> 2:36:41.600 it was all of the sort of big state like 2:36:41.640 --> 2:36:44.920 authoritarian people like tied themselves through a bunch of imperialists, 2:36:45.320 --> 2:36:48.720 and you know, May staked their whole entire politics off 2:36:48.720 --> 2:36:51.280 of them being the anti imperialist class. And then you 2:36:51.320 --> 2:36:53.600 know the state who's like a bunch of their press 2:36:53.680 --> 2:36:56.520 people like literally work for right and who who they've 2:36:56.520 --> 2:36:59.879 been arguing like is the counter imperialist powers does imperialism? 2:37:00.080 --> 2:37:03.520 And so like, Yeah, I think we have this moment 2:37:03.680 --> 2:37:08.240 where everything is in chaos, in which we have to 2:37:08.280 --> 2:37:11.879 be the ones that that that have solutions or have 2:37:12.200 --> 2:37:14.360 or have the tools to build them. And I think 2:37:14.360 --> 2:37:17.800 that's why that's why this project is important, because that's 2:37:17.800 --> 2:37:22.080 that's something that we need in this exact moment. Yeah, 2:37:22.520 --> 2:37:27.200 I think there's a tremendous value in being humble about 2:37:27.240 --> 2:37:30.560 seeking out solutions to these questions and not doing what 2:37:30.680 --> 2:37:32.520 so many do on the left and pretend that their 2:37:32.560 --> 2:37:35.760 tendency has an absolute answer, because all we have is theories. 2:37:35.800 --> 2:37:37.600 And the reason I know that to a point of 2:37:37.600 --> 2:37:39.560 certainty is that no one has solved any of these 2:37:39.560 --> 2:37:44.080 problems yet absolutely, And and so there is a tremendous 2:37:44.120 --> 2:37:46.480 degree of humility that people need to have in terms 2:37:46.480 --> 2:37:48.920 of like, all right, well we are attempting to arrive 2:37:49.240 --> 2:37:53.119 at the conclusions that can lead us to a better world, 2:37:53.160 --> 2:37:57.000 as opposed to we are trying to force through this 2:37:57.080 --> 2:37:59.920 thing that we know will work. Um, because you don't 2:38:00.040 --> 2:38:02.280 you know, if you're a Marxist Leninist and you think 2:38:02.320 --> 2:38:04.959 that we need climate MAU, you don't know that that 2:38:05.000 --> 2:38:07.640 will work because it hasn't yet. And if you're an 2:38:07.640 --> 2:38:11.840 anarchist who thinks the solution is bombing as many oil 2:38:11.879 --> 2:38:14.039 refineries as you possibly can, well, you don't know that 2:38:14.080 --> 2:38:15.760 you're ever going to get enough people on board for 2:38:15.800 --> 2:38:20.000 that to mean anything. Um. And I think that there's 2:38:20.560 --> 2:38:23.240 the conversations that we need to be having. I think 2:38:23.280 --> 2:38:25.879 it's it's important to see them as conversations as opposed 2:38:25.920 --> 2:38:29.840 to polemics aimed at just getting people in line behind 2:38:30.000 --> 2:38:33.880 this shining vision of a clear set of steps. Um. 2:38:33.920 --> 2:38:35.959 It's important to envision the end goal. I say that 2:38:36.000 --> 2:38:38.240 a lot. You know, we need to be looking and 2:38:38.240 --> 2:38:41.800 and accepting the possibility of a better future, but it's 2:38:41.800 --> 2:38:44.240 important not to be dogmatic about the road to get 2:38:44.240 --> 2:38:47.080 there because nobody, nobody really has a clear idea of 2:38:47.120 --> 2:38:52.280 what that looks like. Yeah, So the piece ends up 2:38:52.360 --> 2:38:54.119 and if you want to see the ending of it. 2:38:54.120 --> 2:38:56.720 It'll it'll be up in um in sometime in the 2:38:56.760 --> 2:38:59.440 next couple of weeks. But the basic gist of where 2:38:59.440 --> 2:39:03.520 it goes is precisely to the practical question, right, instead 2:39:03.520 --> 2:39:08.920 of like making these like polemical arguments that are rooted 2:39:09.000 --> 2:39:11.600 more in like kind of like what tribe you've decided 2:39:11.640 --> 2:39:14.000 to identify with within the broad family of socialism than 2:39:14.120 --> 2:39:16.280 in like actually trying to like solve problems for the 2:39:16.280 --> 2:39:19.880 people around you, right, or help contribute to the solutions. 2:39:19.920 --> 2:39:23.520 Like it's actually what we want to ask is like, 2:39:24.000 --> 2:39:28.880 if we have like the giant ecological crisis, Uh, how 2:39:28.920 --> 2:39:31.120 do you how do you actually do it? Is it 2:39:31.120 --> 2:39:33.080 by trying to force people from the top down to 2:39:33.160 --> 2:39:35.640 do it as Um under his mom kind of draws 2:39:35.680 --> 2:39:38.680 on the failed uh policies of war communism as and 2:39:38.720 --> 2:39:42.640 inspiration for that. Or is it potentially by having like 2:39:42.680 --> 2:39:46.600 democrat democratized institutions that incentivize people with carrots instead of sticks, 2:39:46.600 --> 2:39:49.680 like Naomi Klein basically uncovered in want of her journalism 2:39:49.680 --> 2:39:52.280 and this changes everything. So this is kind of like 2:39:52.400 --> 2:39:55.480 the debate that we have to start having in order 2:39:55.480 --> 2:40:01.320 to be able to together formulate these kinds of solutions. Yeah, alright, 2:40:01.360 --> 2:40:05.760 well I think that's gonna do it for for us today. Um, 2:40:05.800 --> 2:40:07.520 what do we what do we we do? You got 2:40:07.560 --> 2:40:10.119 you guys gotta gotta gotta plug you want to throw up? 2:40:10.440 --> 2:40:15.080 Throw up before we roll out? Yeah. If if you 2:40:15.080 --> 2:40:20.800 want to follow us at at Strange Underscore Matters UM 2:40:21.240 --> 2:40:24.920 on Twitter. UM. We also have a Facebook and you 2:40:24.959 --> 2:40:29.680 can read our articles at Strange Matters dot co op, 2:40:30.240 --> 2:40:33.400 which is our website. Uh. And if anything that you 2:40:33.480 --> 2:40:35.800 read there that you've heard here inspires you at all, 2:40:35.800 --> 2:40:38.120 please consider donating. We're gonna be in the next month 2:40:38.240 --> 2:40:41.400 raising money, uh for for the magazine and we want 2:40:41.400 --> 2:40:44.119 to pair writers above market rate because we think market 2:40:44.160 --> 2:40:46.600 rates too low. So but in order to actually do that, 2:40:46.640 --> 2:40:48.320 and none of the money is going to the editors 2:40:48.520 --> 2:40:50.880 from the fundraisers, so if if, if we're going to 2:40:50.920 --> 2:40:52.320 be able to do that, we've got to meet our 2:40:52.640 --> 2:40:58.640 fundraising target. All right, Well support them and um, you know, 2:40:59.400 --> 2:41:01.760 figure out how to save the world. It's it's up 2:41:01.760 --> 2:41:04.920 to you. And I'm speaking to exactly one person right 2:41:04.959 --> 2:41:06.800 now and no one else, but I'm not going to 2:41:06.879 --> 2:41:23.440 be more specific. Welcome to it could happen here a 2:41:23.440 --> 2:41:27.120 podcast about things following apart and putting it back together again. 2:41:27.240 --> 2:41:31.119 And today we're doing one of our I guess increasingly 2:41:31.240 --> 2:41:33.680 less rare but still sort of uncommon putting things back 2:41:33.720 --> 2:41:36.880 together again episodes, and with me today is Ted men 2:41:37.000 --> 2:41:41.200 from Amazonians United, to talk about different kinds of union 2:41:41.320 --> 2:41:44.720 union workers organizing UM and the work that you all 2:41:44.720 --> 2:41:48.000 have been doing. So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks 2:41:48.080 --> 2:41:52.480 for having me so all right, one of the things 2:41:52.480 --> 2:41:54.840 that I wanted to talk about right off the bat 2:41:54.920 --> 2:41:58.920 is that Amazonians United is running a very very different 2:41:59.040 --> 2:42:01.279 kind of organization. And then a lot of the union 2:42:01.800 --> 2:42:03.240 efforts that we've talked about on the show, and a 2:42:03.280 --> 2:42:06.640 lot of the sort of like I guess, classical sort 2:42:06.640 --> 2:42:11.160 of business union model stuff that that you know, we've 2:42:11.200 --> 2:42:13.560 we've we've we you know, than than what you see 2:42:13.600 --> 2:42:15.640 in the press, and then also that we've been covering. 2:42:15.720 --> 2:42:19.440 So I wanted to start off by asking you about 2:42:19.560 --> 2:42:23.040 solidarity unionism and how it sort of differs from other 2:42:23.120 --> 2:42:28.480 kinds of union organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's 2:42:28.520 --> 2:42:33.039 pretty simple. Actually, I think solidarity unionism is workers who 2:42:33.080 --> 2:42:36.480 believe in ourselves, and by that I mean and it's 2:42:36.600 --> 2:42:41.039 workers recognizing that we don't need someone to save us 2:42:41.720 --> 2:42:47.600 UM when because we are the ones doing the work, 2:42:47.720 --> 2:42:51.760 we know how to run our workplaces, We know how 2:42:51.920 --> 2:42:59.600 to do it best, and we also deserve the wealth 2:42:59.640 --> 2:43:03.920 that we've produce. So UM solidarity unionism to me is 2:43:05.080 --> 2:43:11.120 UH building organization with each other, where the fabric of 2:43:11.120 --> 2:43:17.000 our organization is our relationship and our solidarity as co 2:43:17.160 --> 2:43:24.640 workers engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone. 2:43:24.760 --> 2:43:29.560 That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking 2:43:30.000 --> 2:43:34.560 the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM. 2:43:34.720 --> 2:43:39.720 And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we 2:43:39.760 --> 2:43:44.240 care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building 2:43:44.360 --> 2:43:49.680 our confidence and our strength and our consciousness UM and 2:43:49.760 --> 2:43:55.240 our organization. To me, a solidarity unioniszone UM. It is 2:43:56.720 --> 2:44:02.240 distinctly different from business as unionism, which is the dominant 2:44:02.280 --> 2:44:07.520 form mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you want 2:44:07.520 --> 2:44:13.480 to call it, UM, that model that has been failing 2:44:13.879 --> 2:44:20.680 for several decades. UM actually is predicated on a deep 2:44:20.840 --> 2:44:27.959 distrust of workers, the disbelief that workers can organize ourselves, 2:44:28.160 --> 2:44:33.920 run our own workplaces, represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. UM. 2:44:33.959 --> 2:44:37.000 And in business union. I mean, you know, you you 2:44:38.040 --> 2:44:41.400 see the ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job, 2:44:41.640 --> 2:44:44.880 come lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead. 2:44:46.280 --> 2:44:48.080 You're not even a worker in the workplace. How are 2:44:48.080 --> 2:44:50.600 you going to lead someone in there? Like you know, 2:44:50.720 --> 2:44:53.200 you're you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a 2:44:53.200 --> 2:44:56.680 different professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us 2:44:56.840 --> 2:45:00.879 from inside, with from within the U, the warehouse, and 2:45:00.959 --> 2:45:05.560 so um. Yeah, I think that's that's the main difference 2:45:05.600 --> 2:45:09.080 to me of the model. Do you are you a worker? 2:45:09.200 --> 2:45:11.959 Do you believe in workers? Do you trust and have 2:45:12.080 --> 2:45:15.400 faith that workers we ourselves can build our own organization, 2:45:15.560 --> 2:45:20.880 lead ourselves. Um? And um? And when or do you 2:45:20.959 --> 2:45:23.760 think workers need to be led, need to be represented, 2:45:24.000 --> 2:45:26.880 need to be told what to do? Um? Need to 2:45:26.920 --> 2:45:33.480 pay you to go and say that? Um? And uh. Yeah. 2:45:32.879 --> 2:45:37.879 I believe in workers almost. I'm a solidarity unionist. Yeah. 2:45:37.879 --> 2:45:40.840 And I think we were talking a bit before the 2:45:40.879 --> 2:45:42.800 show about this, and I think there's there's a lot 2:45:42.800 --> 2:45:47.199 of aspects about this that are I think very powerful 2:45:47.360 --> 2:45:51.039 in you know, in in in in secacy economy that 2:45:51.080 --> 2:45:53.480 haven't been unionized. And I haven't our unions ever treated 2:45:53.480 --> 2:45:55.600 from our people who are never sort of organized and 2:45:55.680 --> 2:45:59.040 to begin with, and I think that's you know something 2:45:59.080 --> 2:46:04.160 that there's there, there's the there's this problem that happens 2:46:04.200 --> 2:46:08.680 like with with a lot of unions where you know, 2:46:08.760 --> 2:46:10.480 you you you get you get this sort of beureacratic 2:46:10.520 --> 2:46:12.680 structure that builds up and the bereacratic structure that builds 2:46:12.760 --> 2:46:15.960 up like doesn't have doesn't necessarily have the same interests 2:46:16.000 --> 2:46:18.400 as the people in the union. And that's a real problem. 2:46:18.440 --> 2:46:20.920 And you get these entrenched like you know, you can 2:46:20.959 --> 2:46:22.920 get these in trenched caucuses you control unions, and you 2:46:22.959 --> 2:46:26.200 get this the sort of proliferation of of these people. 2:46:26.200 --> 2:46:29.440 And I think this is this was part of why 2:46:29.520 --> 2:46:32.400 a lot of the sort of the anti union techniques 2:46:32.400 --> 2:46:34.320 that you saw in like the sort of anti union 2:46:34.360 --> 2:46:37.320 persias in the eighties, I mean you've been seeing them 2:46:37.320 --> 2:46:38.879 for a while. Like why they started working in the 2:46:38.920 --> 2:46:41.560 eighties was that like you know, when when when when 2:46:41.600 --> 2:46:44.080 someone like starts ranting about union bureaucrats right like they're 2:46:44.120 --> 2:46:46.879 they're actually like there actually was a divide there, like 2:46:46.920 --> 2:46:49.840 there there there was a sort of like I guess 2:46:49.840 --> 2:46:52.680 like like there there was a sort of like a 2:46:52.760 --> 2:46:57.320 kind of fundamental class difference, which I think has a 2:46:57.360 --> 2:46:58.840 lot I mean, also has a lot to do with 2:46:59.320 --> 2:47:01.200 you know, when when you get into your sort of 2:47:01.240 --> 2:47:04.120 like more more revolutionary context that that has to do 2:47:04.240 --> 2:47:08.080 with why a lot of unions when you know, France 2:47:08.120 --> 2:47:09.840 is infamous for this, right Like, France has had these 2:47:09.879 --> 2:47:12.240 giant like comunist trade unions and every time a revolution started, 2:47:12.320 --> 2:47:14.040 the trade union just like sits there and does nothing. 2:47:15.160 --> 2:47:17.199 And yeah, and you have to sort of ask yourself like, okay, 2:47:17.200 --> 2:47:20.199 so why is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier 2:47:20.240 --> 2:47:22.760 to unionism, it has it has a lot of answers 2:47:22.800 --> 2:47:24.880 to this sort of I guess you call it like that. 2:47:25.000 --> 2:47:26.400 There's there's a there's a sort of like right wing 2:47:26.480 --> 2:47:29.160 critique of unions that has to do with like, well, okay, 2:47:29.160 --> 2:47:30.880 so we don't want workers to organize, We don't want 2:47:30.879 --> 2:47:32.640 them to reflective power at all. But then there's also 2:47:33.120 --> 2:47:35.240 you know, but but the reason that it works in 2:47:35.240 --> 2:47:37.000 a lot of cases because it's able to tap into 2:47:37.000 --> 2:47:40.080 a sort of like into these structural problems that a 2:47:40.120 --> 2:47:44.880 lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding 2:47:44.920 --> 2:47:48.760 of how yells organizing has been going and correct me 2:47:48.800 --> 2:47:50.920 if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that like, 2:47:52.600 --> 2:47:55.879 unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even 2:47:55.879 --> 2:47:58.000 specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the 2:47:58.280 --> 2:47:59.959 sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of 2:48:00.040 --> 2:48:02.000 us like, you're not active, Like your goal isn't to 2:48:02.080 --> 2:48:07.360 just get like recognition as a collected bargaining in it. Right. 2:48:08.240 --> 2:48:12.119 That's another key part of our key difference between solidarity 2:48:12.200 --> 2:48:20.320 unionism business unionism. Um. In business unionism, you're what defines 2:48:20.760 --> 2:48:24.119 you as a union is whether you are legally recognized 2:48:24.160 --> 2:48:27.760 by the state, by the n l R b um, 2:48:28.000 --> 2:48:34.920 by the appointed government body. Yeah. Um. That is the 2:48:34.959 --> 2:48:38.800 point at which the folks in these organizations like, are 2:48:38.800 --> 2:48:41.080 we a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's 2:48:41.080 --> 2:48:44.120 do an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by 2:48:44.200 --> 2:48:48.440 the way, we're designed to demobilize us. Yeah, century ago. 2:48:48.680 --> 2:48:52.920 But let's follow these rules. Let's try to fight in 2:48:53.000 --> 2:48:56.760 the courts, uh, to be recognized as a union. And 2:48:56.800 --> 2:48:58.600 then once we're a union, then we can fight for 2:48:58.640 --> 2:49:02.199 a legal contract that has benefited a lot of people 2:49:02.360 --> 2:49:04.320 in different ways. I'm not you know what I mean, Like, 2:49:05.760 --> 2:49:11.480 but that approach is different than solidity unism where it's like, 2:49:12.280 --> 2:49:15.440 we know our power is in the workplace, on the 2:49:15.480 --> 2:49:17.959 shop floor, where our power is based on our unity 2:49:17.959 --> 2:49:21.600 and numbers as co workers. We see this when we 2:49:21.720 --> 2:49:23.920 walk out and within a month they give us a raise. 2:49:24.320 --> 2:49:26.240 Along would it have taken to get a raise if 2:49:26.280 --> 2:49:32.439 we went for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization 2:49:32.480 --> 2:49:36.840 are we even building in that way? And so um our. 2:49:38.320 --> 2:49:45.800 Instead of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh 2:49:46.160 --> 2:49:51.080 struggle against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to 2:49:51.160 --> 2:49:56.640 wage engage in struggle in the shop floor where we 2:49:56.800 --> 2:49:59.400 are the experts, where we have the power, where we 2:49:59.440 --> 2:50:02.280 have the organis station, where we're doing the work, where 2:50:02.400 --> 2:50:06.680 that is our home turf. Um. We have more power there, Like, 2:50:06.920 --> 2:50:09.640 it makes more sense to build power where we have power, 2:50:10.040 --> 2:50:15.119 not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower 2:50:15.280 --> 2:50:18.400 us and give large employers to the the upper hand. Um. 2:50:18.560 --> 2:50:22.360 All the different ways that they can manipulate how the 2:50:22.440 --> 2:50:28.800 votes happen, what is considered part of the voting unit, um, 2:50:29.080 --> 2:50:33.199 the contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles. 2:50:33.480 --> 2:50:38.080 I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need 2:50:38.200 --> 2:50:42.160 lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world. 2:50:42.320 --> 2:50:45.040 That's not our world. It was not built for us 2:50:45.360 --> 2:50:47.959 to be in. It was built to control us. And 2:50:48.040 --> 2:50:54.440 so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try 2:50:54.480 --> 2:50:58.200 to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be 2:50:58.200 --> 2:51:00.440 in waging it in the play this is that we 2:51:00.520 --> 2:51:03.520 work and so um. That Yeah, that's I think another 2:51:03.680 --> 2:51:08.000 core UM principal solid or unism like build power where 2:51:08.040 --> 2:51:11.280 we have it um and that's the shop for Yeah, 2:51:11.320 --> 2:51:12.880 and I think, I mean that's something that I've seen 2:51:13.200 --> 2:51:15.480 like in like when I was in college, there there 2:51:15.560 --> 2:51:18.959 was a big grad student union organization campaign and it 2:51:19.080 --> 2:51:23.320 kind of they had this huge problem which was that Okay, 2:51:23.320 --> 2:51:24.960 well they were trying to do they were trying to 2:51:24.959 --> 2:51:29.040 get a National Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump. 2:51:29.800 --> 2:51:32.439 But they couldn't do it because if you know, because 2:51:32.480 --> 2:51:34.440 because the National Labor Relations Board was controlled by just 2:51:34.600 --> 2:51:39.480 like the even even by National Labor Relations Board standards 2:51:39.600 --> 2:51:45.280 like like just unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces. 2:51:45.320 --> 2:51:47.000 It was like, well, if we try to get a vote, 2:51:47.400 --> 2:51:49.720 like there's a chance they could just you know, like 2:51:49.800 --> 2:51:52.040 literally destroy the right, like destroy the organizing rights of 2:51:52.040 --> 2:51:54.600 all grad students of the country. And yeah, and you 2:51:54.600 --> 2:51:57.119 get you get that with the Nissan election or something 2:51:57.160 --> 2:52:00.880 like that. Yeah, yeah, and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and 2:52:01.040 --> 2:52:03.320 it's it's you know, and yeah, I think this this 2:52:03.400 --> 2:52:06.160 is a trap that like a lot of people, even 2:52:06.160 --> 2:52:09.480 even people who are really highly organized, like get stuck 2:52:09.520 --> 2:52:14.400 in where you know, and like eventually, uh, the grand 2:52:14.440 --> 2:52:18.680 students just like essentially just started doing walkouts because that 2:52:18.760 --> 2:52:20.440 was you know, that that was the thing they could 2:52:20.480 --> 2:52:22.160 do when they start doing their own strikes, even til 2:52:22.200 --> 2:52:24.119 they weren't like legally recognized, because that was the thing 2:52:24.120 --> 2:52:27.200 that you could do to you know, actually fight in 2:52:27.240 --> 2:52:30.880 a terrain that wasn't just inherently rigged against you. So okay, 2:52:30.879 --> 2:52:34.080 so you've you've you've you've decided to take to take 2:52:34.080 --> 2:52:36.280 a fight in the workplace, like on the shop floor, 2:52:36.320 --> 2:52:38.440 where where you're where you're at your strongest. What does 2:52:38.440 --> 2:52:41.000 that actually look like in terms of actions, in terms 2:52:41.080 --> 2:52:52.199 of organization. Yeah, honestly, I think it's simpler and more rudimentary. 2:52:52.800 --> 2:52:57.560 Um then one might think or that you might read 2:52:57.600 --> 2:53:01.840 about and you know, I can that article or something analyzing. 2:53:02.400 --> 2:53:09.480 I think it comes down to comes down to building community, 2:53:10.000 --> 2:53:16.560 comes down to building culture and the principles of the 2:53:16.600 --> 2:53:19.800 community and culture that you build together with their coworkers 2:53:19.879 --> 2:53:23.520 is one where we value ourselves and each other. We 2:53:23.600 --> 2:53:28.959 respect ourselves and each other, and that means that we 2:53:30.160 --> 2:53:33.440 fight for what is fair in the workplace. That means 2:53:33.520 --> 2:53:40.800 that we maintain integrity. Anytime a boss disrespects one of us, 2:53:41.240 --> 2:53:43.760 we need to confront it. We we need to address it. 2:53:44.200 --> 2:53:49.959 H if not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM, 2:53:50.080 --> 2:53:54.520 it means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we 2:53:54.560 --> 2:53:58.280 need to strategize and figure out how do we how 2:53:58.360 --> 2:54:03.080 do we come hell the employer to stop overworking and 2:54:03.160 --> 2:54:05.920 underpaying us, How do we hit them in a place 2:54:06.080 --> 2:54:10.200 that they are forced to respect and um as it 2:54:10.240 --> 2:54:13.440 goes In the world we are today, it's always the numbers, 2:54:13.440 --> 2:54:16.879 It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM 2:54:16.920 --> 2:54:18.800 what that means on the day to day, I mean, 2:54:19.400 --> 2:54:26.279 m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon 2:54:26.400 --> 2:54:31.200 has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like 2:54:31.200 --> 2:54:33.440 the Uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts, 2:54:33.480 --> 2:54:36.160 you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh 2:54:36.360 --> 2:54:41.120 furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM many warehouses, 2:54:41.200 --> 2:54:45.280 Like you're work the ten twelve hour shift and you're 2:54:45.640 --> 2:54:48.160 for that entire time you're near one or two people max. 2:54:48.200 --> 2:54:51.000 Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and there's machinery 2:54:51.040 --> 2:54:55.520 and your packing boxes and and so UM. On top 2:54:55.560 --> 2:55:00.720 of that, you know that every day dehumanizing. It's also um, 2:55:00.840 --> 2:55:03.959 you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM. It's difficult 2:55:04.040 --> 2:55:07.840 to have you know, deep human interaction when you're busting 2:55:07.840 --> 2:55:10.840 your ass moving you know, thirty to forty five pound 2:55:10.840 --> 2:55:16.720 packages as quickly as you can. UM. And so the 2:55:17.920 --> 2:55:21.000 day to day of building and fighting in the workplace, 2:55:21.120 --> 2:55:25.480 building community means uh. For example, every week we have 2:55:25.520 --> 2:55:28.560 a pot luck during lunch, bring co workers together, new 2:55:28.560 --> 2:55:32.119 coworkers that you know, someone could start last week. That's 2:55:32.160 --> 2:55:34.400 something that we hear a lot. You know. Part of 2:55:34.400 --> 2:55:37.080 the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How can 2:55:37.120 --> 2:55:40.680 you possibly organize the turnover was so high? Um. That 2:55:40.920 --> 2:55:44.600 is a specific weapon that boss is used against us. 2:55:44.640 --> 2:55:47.320 High turnover means what it means we frequently have new 2:55:47.360 --> 2:55:50.879 coworkers harder to build relationship and organization. It means that 2:55:51.160 --> 2:55:55.720 the job feels more precarious, so people are always uh 2:55:55.959 --> 2:55:58.480 afraid that we'll lose our job. You know, we could 2:55:58.480 --> 2:56:02.400 get fired. We could they could change uh, staffing numbers 2:56:02.400 --> 2:56:05.360 that could close warehouses. It create you know, as a 2:56:05.400 --> 2:56:09.800 tool higher turnover. They just they turn through workers. Okay, 2:56:09.800 --> 2:56:11.920 who who's willing to do the most work for the 2:56:11.920 --> 2:56:15.680 lowest pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay? 2:56:15.760 --> 2:56:17.680 If if you can't handle it, then you quit. If 2:56:17.720 --> 2:56:19.560 you can, then you stay in here. Okay, let's find 2:56:19.560 --> 2:56:22.080 the workers in society that are most able to you know, 2:56:22.560 --> 2:56:24.600 produce the most that so on and so forth and 2:56:24.680 --> 2:56:30.120 so basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes 2:56:30.160 --> 2:56:33.440 it's just like talking with your coworkers is something that 2:56:33.680 --> 2:56:38.040 is that they try to keep you from doing in 2:56:38.080 --> 2:56:43.240 the workplace, And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation, 2:56:43.280 --> 2:56:47.720 already resisting. UM boss is trying to just control everything, 2:56:47.840 --> 2:56:53.480 keep everyone divided. So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings 2:56:53.560 --> 2:56:56.520 inside or outside of the workplace, coming together. What are 2:56:56.520 --> 2:56:59.600 the issues that we care about? UM? How do we 2:56:59.680 --> 2:57:02.119 bring how do we build more unity around these issues 2:57:02.120 --> 2:57:04.280 that we know many people care about. Isn't doing a 2:57:04.280 --> 2:57:07.240 petition people sign on together? Are we delivering the petition 2:57:07.280 --> 2:57:11.680 in the group. Um, if the management doesn't respond, it 2:57:11.800 --> 2:57:14.840 doesn't give us a reasonable response. How do we escalate? 2:57:14.920 --> 2:57:16.320 Do we need to walk out? Do we need to 2:57:16.320 --> 2:57:20.800 take other action? Um? Any time we see a manager 2:57:20.840 --> 2:57:25.280 disres disrespecting a coworker, UM, how do we post up 2:57:25.320 --> 2:57:27.480 next to them, pull out a notepads, start taking notes? 2:57:27.480 --> 2:57:30.120 Ask questions? UM, we're a witness, you know. How do 2:57:30.160 --> 2:57:32.240 we defend each other in all of these basic ways? 2:57:32.560 --> 2:57:36.360 How are we addressing um and being honest with ourselves 2:57:36.400 --> 2:57:40.280 and each other of uh? Just the depth of disrespect 2:57:40.280 --> 2:57:42.400 when they're waiting for us outside of the bathrooms to 2:57:42.440 --> 2:57:44.640 write us up for time off task, when they're telling 2:57:44.680 --> 2:57:47.200 us to work faster when you know we're already on 2:57:47.240 --> 2:57:49.640 a ten hour shift, we're on our ten of the 2:57:49.640 --> 2:57:51.879 ten hour shift. They send a bunch of people home 2:57:52.240 --> 2:57:54.400 and are forcing us to finish all the work for 2:57:54.440 --> 2:57:57.120 a small number of people. Do we continue putting up 2:57:57.120 --> 2:57:59.680 with it? Or do we immediately walk out? Or do 2:57:59.760 --> 2:58:01.360 we off with their co works about what we want 2:58:01.400 --> 2:58:06.200 to do? Just being mindful of being honest about what 2:58:07.000 --> 2:58:09.920 how we are being treated, what is fair, what is 2:58:09.959 --> 2:58:17.800 not and taking the necessary action to UH demand the 2:58:17.800 --> 2:58:21.000 the fairness, the respect that each of us deserve. I think, 2:58:21.000 --> 2:58:28.120 like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um, I don't. Yeah, 2:58:28.200 --> 2:58:30.720 And I think it comes down to building that community 2:58:31.640 --> 2:58:34.240 with each other and then building the culture of not 2:58:34.240 --> 2:58:37.080 putting up with bullshit, defending each other, looking out for 2:58:37.120 --> 2:58:40.960 each other. Um, there's them, there's an US. UM. Make 2:58:41.000 --> 2:58:44.960 sure you know inside you're on UM and you know. 2:58:45.160 --> 2:58:49.360 I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah. 2:58:49.400 --> 2:58:52.360 I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is 2:58:52.400 --> 2:58:54.320 really interesting to me because I think that's something that's 2:58:54.400 --> 2:58:59.840 not really talked about much with with with the organizing. 2:59:00.040 --> 2:59:04.000 It's both because you know, a lot of like a 2:59:04.000 --> 2:59:06.680 lot of what is discussed with you know, it's it's 2:59:07.040 --> 2:59:10.280 especially not in academic circles. When when when you're when 2:59:10.280 --> 2:59:11.960 you're just you know, when when when you have people 2:59:11.959 --> 2:59:14.200 writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of 2:59:14.240 --> 2:59:18.760 like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah, 2:59:19.040 --> 2:59:21.840 you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you 2:59:21.840 --> 2:59:26.720 don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological 2:59:26.760 --> 2:59:31.119 degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think 2:59:31.120 --> 2:59:34.080 also as as yeah, as as you've been saying something 2:59:34.080 --> 2:59:38.680 that's that's very important not discussed enough as I mean 2:59:38.720 --> 2:59:41.359 both says just something that that is a goal in itself, 2:59:41.400 --> 2:59:45.200 like not having this sort of you know, not not 2:59:45.240 --> 2:59:50.800 having the just sort of horrible, demeaning and abusive sort 2:59:50.840 --> 2:59:55.959 of tyranny of the boss is just like existing as 2:59:55.959 --> 3:00:00.200 this kind of like normal force and the But then 3:00:00.240 --> 3:00:02.720 also like yeah that this destructly something that that is 3:00:02.760 --> 3:00:06.000 really important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing is 3:00:06.920 --> 3:00:10.840 you know, getting getting people, getting people to organize around 3:00:11.760 --> 3:00:18.119 just like how get get people to organize around just 3:00:18.959 --> 3:00:23.640 the sort of like the psychological decordation, like I think 3:00:23.800 --> 3:00:26.720 is really important because otherwise you know, you get you 3:00:26.720 --> 3:00:29.280 can get you can just get these cultures where like 3:00:29.320 --> 3:00:30.800 I mean, I remember I had a job where I 3:00:30.840 --> 3:00:32.680 was in like we had a union, but like it 3:00:32.760 --> 3:00:34.920 didn't I mean I was so I was I was 3:00:34.920 --> 3:00:36.600 a temp workers where I wasn't in the union, like 3:00:36.600 --> 3:00:38.440 they had a union, and it just sort of didn't 3:00:38.480 --> 3:00:42.120 do anything, and no one like you and this this 3:00:42.160 --> 3:00:43.800 is a real source that sort of righting resentment because 3:00:43.800 --> 3:00:46.200 the union just didn't do anything, and then you know 3:00:46.240 --> 3:00:50.720 everyone's getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and 3:00:50.760 --> 3:00:52.640 by sort upper management and no one. But it never 3:00:52.720 --> 3:00:56.160 even like it never really like just on a culture level, 3:00:56.240 --> 3:00:58.240 never occurred to them to sort of like use the 3:00:58.320 --> 3:01:00.600 union for that, because it's not really what the union 3:01:00.680 --> 3:01:02.240 was there for. It was just the sort of like 3:01:03.080 --> 3:01:06.080 it was just this thing that existed and like occasionally 3:01:06.080 --> 3:01:09.560 when contracts came up, it would appear. And I guess, 3:01:09.560 --> 3:01:11.240 on on on that note, one of the things I 3:01:11.280 --> 3:01:15.640 was also wondering is what sort of so for for 3:01:15.640 --> 3:01:17.959 for for people who are who are interested in their 3:01:18.000 --> 3:01:20.560 own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and 3:01:20.600 --> 3:01:23.680 starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against 3:01:23.680 --> 3:01:26.920 their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because 3:01:26.920 --> 3:01:29.400 they don't want to or because they literally can't, which 3:01:29.400 --> 3:01:31.280 I think is is true of a lot of people 3:01:31.879 --> 3:01:34.320 like who who want to organize outside of the business 3:01:34.400 --> 3:01:36.680 union model. How how do you how did you all 3:01:38.000 --> 3:01:44.039 start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate 3:01:44.120 --> 3:01:46.640 lessons do you think people should should take away and 3:01:46.640 --> 3:01:49.440 should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing 3:01:49.440 --> 3:01:56.600 in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think of the base 3:01:56.840 --> 3:02:01.840 of the is the UM I guess I mentioned something 3:02:01.879 --> 3:02:05.920 like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves. 3:02:06.959 --> 3:02:09.360 We can. You know, if you're talking if you have 3:02:09.400 --> 3:02:13.440 two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you 3:02:13.560 --> 3:02:17.000 say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's 3:02:17.000 --> 3:02:21.199 going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM. 3:02:21.360 --> 3:02:30.280 And I think part of part of the damage, part 3:02:30.360 --> 3:02:37.840 of the harm that business unionism has done. And also 3:02:38.120 --> 3:02:46.920 just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM. 3:02:46.959 --> 3:02:52.800 I think they're all part of uh sort of connected 3:02:52.840 --> 3:02:56.800 school of thought where it's like organizing and you know, 3:02:57.000 --> 3:02:59.039 building an union is something that like you need to 3:02:59.080 --> 3:03:02.560 be like professor rolls to or you know, they're experts 3:03:02.560 --> 3:03:04.959 at it U the experts, and then if you're not 3:03:05.080 --> 3:03:07.800 an expert, then you need to consultant expert to figure 3:03:07.800 --> 3:03:11.160 out how to do it. UM. And I think that's bullshit. 3:03:11.440 --> 3:03:15.440 I think it's if you're a worker, then uh, you 3:03:15.480 --> 3:03:18.879 can be a union organizer. If you're a worker and 3:03:19.000 --> 3:03:22.480 you talk with you know, another worker about what's going 3:03:22.520 --> 3:03:25.840 on in your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM. 3:03:26.280 --> 3:03:28.400 Like I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if 3:03:28.440 --> 3:03:31.400 you're you know, and and workers do this all the time, 3:03:31.920 --> 3:03:36.320 confronting management about disrespect. You know, I think it's very 3:03:36.400 --> 3:03:39.480 much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's a 3:03:39.520 --> 3:03:42.240 matter of like connecting your issue with a couple other 3:03:42.280 --> 3:03:45.760 coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what what's 3:03:45.800 --> 3:03:47.760 our next step? But we need more numbers? How do 3:03:47.800 --> 3:03:50.720 we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh? 3:03:50.760 --> 3:03:52.720 If each of us can invite one more person, that 3:03:52.800 --> 3:03:56.080 six people, if you know, if the six of us 3:03:56.160 --> 3:03:59.320 can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know, 3:03:59.440 --> 3:04:02.160 signature a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's it's 3:04:02.160 --> 3:04:06.000 step by step and saying if we want to build organization, 3:04:07.240 --> 3:04:09.119 we can do it from the bottom up. We can 3:04:09.160 --> 3:04:13.560 start it um and we can figure this out. I mean, 3:04:13.840 --> 3:04:18.960 every even within the same company, even within the same 3:04:19.040 --> 3:04:21.400 company in the same city there you know, I work 3:04:21.480 --> 3:04:27.680 at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other delivery stations 3:04:27.680 --> 3:04:31.760 in the city of Chicago have a completely different culture, 3:04:32.040 --> 3:04:36.520 you know, the neighborhood that it's in the workers that 3:04:36.520 --> 3:04:40.680 are the bosses, you know, And so even in the 3:04:40.800 --> 3:04:44.520 same company, the same type of workplace in the same city, 3:04:44.879 --> 3:04:48.000 it's gonna be a different story for how that workplace 3:04:48.320 --> 3:04:54.119 is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM, figure 3:04:54.160 --> 3:04:59.600 things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there the 3:05:00.600 --> 3:05:05.640 is thinking about that. That that kind of just begins 3:05:05.680 --> 3:05:08.800 the process of putting together the basics. All right, we 3:05:08.840 --> 3:05:10.640 need to start building up some numbers. We need to 3:05:10.680 --> 3:05:14.320 start having, you know, addressing some issues that people care about. 3:05:14.360 --> 3:05:16.920 And there's always i mean, there's always the you know, 3:05:17.000 --> 3:05:19.560 overworked and underpaid and that's gonna exist everywhere. You can 3:05:19.600 --> 3:05:21.920 always go after those issues, but frequently they're small ones. 3:05:21.959 --> 3:05:25.280 Like our first issue was a water petition uh or 3:05:25.400 --> 3:05:28.039 or or or at was access to water UM, and 3:05:28.080 --> 3:05:32.240 this is how we started as an organization UM. Basically, 3:05:32.320 --> 3:05:35.080 they were taking away bottled water. They said we were 3:05:35.120 --> 3:05:37.320 leaving around too much garbage. They're saying bottled water is 3:05:37.320 --> 3:05:39.240 only there for the summer, and now that's not the summer. 3:05:39.280 --> 3:05:42.080 That whatever. They're trying to save a few dollars a 3:05:42.160 --> 3:05:46.240 day on bottled water to make us you know, work 3:05:46.280 --> 3:05:51.600 without it UM, and we said that's fucked up. We're 3:05:51.640 --> 3:05:54.760 doing warehouse work like this, hard manual labor, and it's 3:05:54.760 --> 3:05:57.480 hot in here. We need a bottle water. It's you know, 3:05:57.720 --> 3:06:01.720 not just that broken on filtered fountain across the warehouse 3:06:01.840 --> 3:06:05.279 that you can't even get to while you're working. Um. 3:06:05.360 --> 3:06:09.000 And so, uh, just a few of us that we're 3:06:09.000 --> 3:06:11.120 talking at break It was like, okay, well there's six 3:06:11.160 --> 3:06:13.680 of us here. Well we're kind of you know, this 3:06:13.800 --> 3:06:16.040 is the this is the break room at work. They're 3:06:16.080 --> 3:06:18.840 like managers walking around their cameras in here, like, let's 3:06:18.879 --> 3:06:22.840 meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM. So you know, 3:06:22.959 --> 3:06:25.280 we we met at a at a Crispy Cream down 3:06:25.320 --> 3:06:30.720 on like ninety third um, and uh we just basically 3:06:30.760 --> 3:06:32.160 said like, well, how are we gonna get this water? 3:06:32.200 --> 3:06:35.000 We've been asking management? Uh, you know they've given us 3:06:35.000 --> 3:06:37.760 the same reasons. We need to do something bigger that 3:06:37.760 --> 3:06:41.040 that they can't ignore. Um, how about a petition? And 3:06:41.080 --> 3:06:43.600 so we just drafted it. The six of us we 3:06:43.720 --> 3:06:47.840 drafted it. We went around. We got hundred fifty signatures 3:06:47.840 --> 3:06:50.520 I think from our co workers are just like basic commands. 3:06:50.760 --> 3:06:52.720 We need bottled water stocked every day. They need to 3:06:52.760 --> 3:06:54.360 be you know, filters need to be clean. We need 3:06:54.400 --> 3:06:56.600 to get a be able to take a break to 3:06:56.600 --> 3:07:02.280 get this water. Um. And we delivered the hundred fifty 3:07:02.280 --> 3:07:05.720 signatures to management. UM. I think it was within thirty 3:07:05.840 --> 3:07:08.160 or forty minutes, they drove to a grocery store, bought 3:07:08.560 --> 3:07:11.840 you know, went to the nearest pizza, bought every case 3:07:11.879 --> 3:07:13.400 a bottle. Why they have brought it and passed it 3:07:13.400 --> 3:07:15.920 out to everyone. We're like, oh, okay, like that was 3:07:16.320 --> 3:07:17.880 you know, people like that's just hey, we gotta do 3:07:17.920 --> 3:07:19.560 a petition for this thing. We gotta do, you know 3:07:19.560 --> 3:07:23.000 what we should? Probably it was that I don't want 3:07:23.000 --> 3:07:25.360 to say easy, because it's definitely not easy to like, 3:07:25.640 --> 3:07:30.080 but the steps, the step by step of like how 3:07:30.160 --> 3:07:33.360 do you begin, how do you get something started? How 3:07:33.400 --> 3:07:38.360 do you start building some immunity? Um? These are steps 3:07:38.400 --> 3:07:41.360 that we have taken. These are you know, what we 3:07:41.440 --> 3:07:47.840 think is can be applicable UM with everyone's own kind 3:07:47.840 --> 3:07:51.920 of personal tweaks based on you know, your own workplace. UM, 3:07:52.040 --> 3:07:55.400 to start getting something going from more coworkers, to start realizing, 3:07:55.600 --> 3:07:58.720 oh yeah, like we should be in more control of 3:07:58.720 --> 3:08:01.000 what's happening around here because we're the ones that are 3:08:01.040 --> 3:08:03.640 doing all the work, were the ones that are suffering 3:08:03.640 --> 3:08:06.800 the most from it in our bodies getting ground down 3:08:06.920 --> 3:08:09.840 from doing it, And so um, yeah, I think that 3:08:10.240 --> 3:08:12.040 I think I look back to a previous question to 3:08:12.160 --> 3:08:14.400 but like how we started, how you engage in the 3:08:14.400 --> 3:08:19.160 struggle and just like what that looks like for building 3:08:19.360 --> 3:08:22.080 building something up from nothing to something like that's why 3:08:22.400 --> 3:08:23.800 that's what we you know what I mean, that's what 3:08:23.840 --> 3:08:26.440 we did. Yeah, from what I've seen, you all have 3:08:26.440 --> 3:08:32.040 been extremely effective like at at getting management to recognize it, 3:08:32.120 --> 3:08:35.280 but essentially getting them to like a seed to your 3:08:35.320 --> 3:08:40.360 demands because like this, this this kind of organizing like 3:08:41.560 --> 3:08:43.280 so solid you need what what I'm trying to say, 3:08:43.280 --> 3:08:45.280 this is all the area to unist works like it's 3:08:45.320 --> 3:08:48.360 not like like and you know and yeah, it's it's 3:08:48.360 --> 3:08:49.720 a thing. I think one of one of the things 3:08:49.760 --> 3:08:52.640 you're talking about it is like, yeah, it's like when 3:08:52.879 --> 3:08:56.879 like when you win even on something fairly small, right, 3:08:56.920 --> 3:09:00.440 and you can show people that this works and that 3:09:01.280 --> 3:09:03.480 like you know, if if, if, if you actually come 3:09:03.520 --> 3:09:05.400 together on something, you can force management to do stuff 3:09:05.440 --> 3:09:09.240 like I think that also become becomes an important sort 3:09:09.280 --> 3:09:13.360 of like I don't know if catalyst is the right word, 3:09:13.400 --> 3:09:16.039 but it becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like 3:09:16.680 --> 3:09:24.000 feeds itself definitely, I mean, especially for a big company 3:09:24.040 --> 3:09:31.440 like Amazon, like I think the most common perspective at 3:09:31.520 --> 3:09:33.640 least at the start is like, this is such a 3:09:33.680 --> 3:09:35.640 big company, Like, what could we possibly do? They have 3:09:35.680 --> 3:09:38.480 a thousand warehouses, like what you know, they could choose 3:09:38.520 --> 3:09:40.800 to close one and open another one, you know, they 3:09:40.800 --> 3:09:44.640 do this, or they could suddenly you know and with 3:09:44.800 --> 3:09:47.800 two weeks notice like change the schedule from an evening 3:09:47.800 --> 3:09:51.680 time to overnight time, which is what they did to us. Basically, Um, 3:09:51.760 --> 3:09:54.160 what can we possibly do? And so you know, but 3:09:54.240 --> 3:09:58.360 I think it's like the moment, it's like there's a 3:09:59.640 --> 3:10:03.320 a lift, uh what do you call like the watershed 3:10:03.560 --> 3:10:06.000 a point, like the moment you kind of take that 3:10:06.080 --> 3:10:09.520 first collective action and then get what you want. Um. 3:10:09.760 --> 3:10:13.000 It's like, oh wait, it's not as like within this 3:10:13.080 --> 3:10:15.160 space like we can actually make our lives a lot 3:10:15.240 --> 3:10:21.120 better pretty quickly. Yeah, we just come together and do 3:10:21.240 --> 3:10:26.080 it ourselves and recognize the power that we have. UM. 3:10:26.240 --> 3:10:34.200 And I think it's like mhm. That's one of the 3:10:34.240 --> 3:10:39.880 reasons why it works so well is because it is 3:10:39.959 --> 3:10:47.320 different from the mainstream approach, which UM bosses and these 3:10:47.320 --> 3:10:51.640 companies understand very well and can easily maneuver around, such as, 3:10:51.959 --> 3:10:54.000 oh if we do if if one of our managers 3:10:54.040 --> 3:10:57.119 does something wrong, what will happen next is will receive 3:10:57.480 --> 3:10:59.720 one of our lawyers, will receive a grievance from one 3:10:59.760 --> 3:11:02.320 of their representative lawyers, and you know, this business union, 3:11:02.480 --> 3:11:04.600 we'll have this many months respond and then we can 3:11:04.640 --> 3:11:07.560 do this and then you know, uh, we'll do this 3:11:07.640 --> 3:11:09.640 paperwork and have this legal back and forth and then 3:11:10.160 --> 3:11:12.480 maybe we'll address this issue six to twelve months down 3:11:12.520 --> 3:11:17.080 the line. UM, no disruption, you know, nothing to worry about. UM, 3:11:17.520 --> 3:11:19.560 Let the bosses run amuck and we'll get a six 3:11:19.640 --> 3:11:22.120 to twelve month ad start to you know, and maybe 3:11:22.160 --> 3:11:23.640 get a slap on the wrist and a fixed wherever 3:11:23.680 --> 3:11:25.959 you need to or pay a small fine. UM as 3:11:26.000 --> 3:11:30.040 opposed to that's business unions, like as opposed to Southern unism, 3:11:30.040 --> 3:11:33.520 where it's like they just disrespected us in a way 3:11:33.560 --> 3:11:35.800 that like we're not trying to put up with, Like 3:11:35.879 --> 3:11:38.920 we are hurting. We can't even finish the shift without 3:11:39.000 --> 3:11:41.360 hurting ourselves more. We're just gonna group up the walk 3:11:41.360 --> 3:11:46.119 out right now. UM, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna 3:11:46.120 --> 3:11:47.800 have to figure out how to get the rest of 3:11:47.879 --> 3:11:51.160 these packages out without us. UM. And when we come 3:11:51.200 --> 3:11:55.200 back tomorrow, Uh, we'll see, we'll see if they want 3:11:55.240 --> 3:11:58.080 to keep treating us the same way. UM. And so 3:11:58.200 --> 3:12:01.400 it's like to me, you know, we we've had basic 3:12:02.160 --> 3:12:07.520 basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, they 3:12:07.520 --> 3:12:10.120 were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into office just 3:12:10.160 --> 3:12:13.080 like with seven of us, not even like the whole shift, Um, 3:12:13.160 --> 3:12:16.120 seven out of fifty people rolling off and said you 3:12:16.160 --> 3:12:17.840 have too few people on the lines. You you need 3:12:17.879 --> 3:12:20.560 an add extra person. We've been asking you have it. Um, 3:12:20.600 --> 3:12:23.360 We've folded our arms. Within five minutes, they send an 3:12:23.360 --> 3:12:27.560 extra person over there, they're working the rest of the the shift. UM. 3:12:27.680 --> 3:12:30.240 In the in the business union approach, like I don't 3:12:30.240 --> 3:12:33.520 even know, like how you followed you know, understaffing grievance, 3:12:33.600 --> 3:12:36.080 Like what are the details? How does that happen? Does 3:12:36.080 --> 3:12:38.960 a union representative have to be contacted and then negotiate 3:12:39.000 --> 3:12:42.240 in some way? Um like that, Like let's just address 3:12:42.280 --> 3:12:45.080 this right now and fix it. UM. I don't want 3:12:45.120 --> 3:12:48.920 to wait for some outside activity. Let's just improve our 3:12:48.920 --> 3:12:53.120 working conditions right now, like confronting and addressing it. UM. 3:12:53.720 --> 3:12:56.959 I think it just you know that's something that Um, 3:12:57.040 --> 3:13:02.360 the bosses are less, it's less predictable for them, it's 3:13:02.400 --> 3:13:06.640 less in their control, it's less in their wheelhouse. Um, 3:13:06.840 --> 3:13:10.200 and I think that's a prey reason why it works better. Yeah, 3:13:10.200 --> 3:13:11.680 And I think one of one of the things the 3:13:11.760 --> 3:13:13.480 thing this reminds me of. It reminds me of the 3:13:13.520 --> 3:13:14.960 kind of stuff that unions used to do when they 3:13:14.959 --> 3:13:17.240 were strong, Like it reminds me of like, yeah, you're 3:13:17.280 --> 3:13:19.360 you're like c I O like sit down, strike right, 3:13:19.360 --> 3:13:21.240 it's like, well, okay, if if the manager is something 3:13:21.240 --> 3:13:22.840 we didn't we don't like so and blows a whistle, 3:13:22.879 --> 3:13:25.720 everyone sits down, and like it's like it's that that 3:13:25.800 --> 3:13:28.480 kind of not just sort of like way to go 3:13:28.520 --> 3:13:32.800 to the legal channels, but just just like I immediately 3:13:32.879 --> 3:13:35.760 taking action is like it's it's something that it's like 3:13:35.760 --> 3:13:37.440 it's it's something that works, and it's you know, like 3:13:37.480 --> 3:13:39.800 that that's that's the kind of stuff that like build 3:13:39.840 --> 3:13:42.600 you built the original like labor movement. And it's really 3:13:42.600 --> 3:13:44.680 interesting to me that, like because because I think there's 3:13:44.680 --> 3:13:47.560 a lot of like I think a lot of people 3:13:47.600 --> 3:13:50.240 look back at that era sort of like nostalgically and 3:13:50.240 --> 3:13:52.360 go like, well, Okay, if unions were stronger, we could 3:13:52.360 --> 3:13:54.040 do this, but like that's not really true. You you 3:13:54.080 --> 3:13:57.520 can't actually just like like you can do the same 3:13:57.560 --> 3:14:00.240 things that like, you know, you're like nineteen three c 3:14:00.360 --> 3:14:02.959 I O was doing like and and and if you 3:14:02.959 --> 3:14:05.000 know and you don't you don't need the kind of 3:14:05.040 --> 3:14:08.680 institutional backing that that those people had. If if like 3:14:08.800 --> 3:14:12.199 if if you're organized enough in your in your specific location, 3:14:12.400 --> 3:14:14.960 I think that's a really interesting I don't know, I'm 3:14:15.000 --> 3:14:16.640 curious if you agree with us. It seems like it's 3:14:16.640 --> 3:14:20.080 skord of interesting lesson about like what happens to the 3:14:20.160 --> 3:14:24.840 labor movement, where like the more the more you get 3:14:24.879 --> 3:14:28.520 into this sort of like okay, well the the union 3:14:28.560 --> 3:14:31.400 is now two lawyers sitting down with each other, right 3:14:31.480 --> 3:14:33.920 the what what you're doing basically is and then like 3:14:34.040 --> 3:14:36.080 this is this is this is explicitly what the National 3:14:36.160 --> 3:14:38.480 Labor Relations Act was, right Like it was an attempt 3:14:38.520 --> 3:14:40.480 to get labor, labor and capital sit down at the 3:14:40.480 --> 3:14:43.440 table and stop fighting so that they could like you know, 3:14:43.560 --> 3:14:46.040 basically Selft production could go on. And like some sometimes 3:14:46.120 --> 3:14:48.240 sometimes that that you know, sometimes I favor the union. Right, 3:14:48.240 --> 3:14:50.520 sometimes you'd have the president be like like the actual 3:14:50.560 --> 3:14:53.440 like US president would be like, okay, you come you 3:14:53.640 --> 3:14:57.200 like steal company. You have to like give workers what 3:14:57.320 --> 3:15:00.280 they're asking for because our steel production shut down, right, 3:15:00.320 --> 3:15:02.800 But like you know, the problem with that is that 3:15:02.920 --> 3:15:06.760 it's based on like it's based on at all costs 3:15:06.800 --> 3:15:10.320 trying to sort of preserve like it's based on cost 3:15:10.360 --> 3:15:11.959 like trying to preserve the labor peace. And you know, 3:15:12.000 --> 3:15:14.160 I mean there's reasons for that too, Like yeah, like 3:15:14.240 --> 3:15:17.960 I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any time 3:15:18.000 --> 3:15:20.360 you take a direct action, there's a risk and yeah, 3:15:20.400 --> 3:15:23.119 like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna 3:15:23.160 --> 3:15:27.039 be like like it's it's hard to be really mad 3:15:27.080 --> 3:15:29.600 at people who don't want to go on strike because 3:15:29.840 --> 3:15:32.400 they don't like because you know, how how am I 3:15:32.400 --> 3:15:36.040 going to defeat my family? Etcetera, etcetera. But like you know, 3:15:36.360 --> 3:15:41.000 bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace, 3:15:41.560 --> 3:15:44.560 just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition, 3:15:45.760 --> 3:15:48.039 I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I 3:15:48.040 --> 3:15:50.600 mean literally how the original labor movement like got built. 3:15:53.440 --> 3:15:56.720 It's difficult, though, and it can be yeah, yeah, you know, 3:15:56.800 --> 3:16:02.480 and it's like I think you you posed kind of 3:16:02.520 --> 3:16:07.560 the question or or or kind of questioning the idea 3:16:07.640 --> 3:16:11.920 like where did how did the labor movement get to 3:16:12.000 --> 3:16:17.000 where it's at if the origins were more conscious Um, 3:16:17.040 --> 3:16:25.320 in the ways that you've been describing UM, I think that. UM. 3:16:25.360 --> 3:16:29.240 I mean it's it's definitely you know, the risk is 3:16:29.280 --> 3:16:34.880 always there. You're always confronting the power. I mean in 3:16:34.920 --> 3:16:37.560 the workplace when it comes down to it, like obviously 3:16:37.600 --> 3:16:43.240 the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than you know, 3:16:43.320 --> 3:16:46.400 Bosses have more power than workers unless workers organized and 3:16:46.440 --> 3:16:49.119 workers have more power than bosses. That is true. And 3:16:49.160 --> 3:16:52.160 also for example, on the day to day, you know, 3:16:52.280 --> 3:16:57.039 the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know, 3:16:58.280 --> 3:17:02.520 however you end up dealing with it. Uh, you know, 3:17:02.680 --> 3:17:06.520 you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks 3:17:06.560 --> 3:17:10.480 until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually 3:17:10.640 --> 3:17:18.800 there's obviously very directly oppressive power dynamic there. UM. And 3:17:20.120 --> 3:17:26.200 I think that UM. To speak truth to power, to 3:17:26.400 --> 3:17:31.560 directly confronted UM. Of course, it's frightening. I mean I 3:17:32.000 --> 3:17:35.840 would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm you know, 3:17:35.920 --> 3:17:39.000 talking on this on this podcast about doing this and yeah, 3:17:39.040 --> 3:17:41.240 we're doing this, and like you know, I'm not gonna 3:17:41.280 --> 3:17:43.200 pretend that like when we were even when we were 3:17:43.240 --> 3:17:47.680 in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management, addressing 3:17:47.920 --> 3:17:51.240 everyone together. It's still like, you know, there's there's there's 3:17:51.280 --> 3:17:54.640 still this power dynamic here and we're punching up like 3:17:55.160 --> 3:17:57.600 it's a punch, but like we're punging up to someone 3:17:57.640 --> 3:18:02.440 that's like a bigger, heavier uh um adversary. And so 3:18:02.480 --> 3:18:05.280 it's like they could swing back to like you gotta 3:18:05.400 --> 3:18:10.920 gotta be ready to and so UM. I think that 3:18:11.800 --> 3:18:14.920 what I'm describing on a kind of like face to 3:18:15.000 --> 3:18:20.480 face interpersonal, that moment in the workplace, I think on 3:18:20.520 --> 3:18:23.800 a broader scale also exists where it's like waging an 3:18:23.800 --> 3:18:29.879 extended you know, organizing struggle to be fighting this fight 3:18:30.360 --> 3:18:33.560 millions of times in many different ways and then continually 3:18:33.600 --> 3:18:35.879 trying to bring people together. You know, people move on 3:18:35.959 --> 3:18:40.200 because everything that's happening in life. They got evicted from 3:18:40.200 --> 3:18:41.640 their place, so they had to move to a different 3:18:41.640 --> 3:18:43.840 place far away. Okay, suddenly they had to leave a job, 3:18:43.879 --> 3:18:46.080 and they were someone that was contributing a lot to 3:18:46.080 --> 3:18:49.520 the organizing. Something happened. Someone has a family member that 3:18:49.720 --> 3:18:51.160 uh you know that thing you need to spend a 3:18:51.160 --> 3:18:55.400 little bit more time with. Um. Everything that's happening. Everything 3:18:55.480 --> 3:19:00.960 that's making you know, reducing our time as working people 3:19:00.959 --> 3:19:03.199 to take care of ourselves and each other, like all 3:19:03.240 --> 3:19:09.039 of this. We're fighting against all of this, and um, 3:19:09.080 --> 3:19:12.280 they're definitely ups and downs. They're definitely times it was 3:19:12.360 --> 3:19:15.520 like thing like where you know, and then it seems 3:19:15.560 --> 3:19:19.560 I get times, Uh, all of the struggles and life 3:19:20.080 --> 3:19:22.440 like it's like you take like two steps forward and 3:19:22.440 --> 3:19:26.480 then two steps backwards. Get that, and so you know, 3:19:26.560 --> 3:19:32.760 there's definitely a difficult reality permeating everything. You know, all 3:19:32.800 --> 3:19:37.160 of the organizing winds, the advents that we're talking about. 3:19:37.800 --> 3:19:41.080 We need to be fully honest about that and also 3:19:41.959 --> 3:19:46.560 recognize that there's still like nothing more. There's like nothing 3:19:46.600 --> 3:19:50.400 more beautiful powerful, There's there's no there's nothing that feels 3:19:50.480 --> 3:19:55.760 better than that moment when you when the power dynamic 3:19:55.840 --> 3:19:58.160 was like this and you pull something off and it's 3:19:58.200 --> 3:20:02.280 like like, oh, like you you just did what we 3:20:02.360 --> 3:20:06.360 wanted you know and more and then now like you're 3:20:06.360 --> 3:20:09.840 being real careful with us, like we we change things here, 3:20:09.879 --> 3:20:15.080 like our lives are better concretely, um, and we made 3:20:15.080 --> 3:20:18.440 it happen, and uh, you know, I think those are 3:20:18.480 --> 3:20:23.199 like celebrating the winds and like taking joy, not always 3:20:23.200 --> 3:20:25.240 thinking so far, Okay, we've got more to go. Yeah, 3:20:25.280 --> 3:20:28.800 they're always there's always more that um, we can and 3:20:28.840 --> 3:20:32.199 have to be building. And let's make sure that we're 3:20:32.280 --> 3:20:36.120 taking the time to recognize, um and celebrate each of 3:20:36.160 --> 3:20:41.560 the steps that we are UM advancing, so that you know, 3:20:42.080 --> 3:20:46.760 we we don't get lost in you know, assuming in 3:20:46.840 --> 3:20:51.320 the cycle of like seeking permanent infinite growth and organizing 3:20:51.440 --> 3:20:54.160 and being constantly stressed out about it, rather than like 3:20:54.280 --> 3:20:57.039 taking those breathers, taking those moments. Okay, like let's take 3:20:57.080 --> 3:21:00.480 this and strive, let's do this sustainable, let's not burn out. UM. 3:21:00.560 --> 3:21:04.320 You know, I think that's all part of figuring out 3:21:04.320 --> 3:21:08.200 how to how to how to make it happen. Yeah, 3:21:08.200 --> 3:21:11.400 And I think that's that's an important I think that 3:21:11.400 --> 3:21:14.640 that's an important thing to understand with any kind of organizing, 3:21:14.840 --> 3:21:19.119 which is that like yeah, if if if you like 3:21:19.280 --> 3:21:21.800 if if if if, there's never sort of a moment 3:21:21.879 --> 3:21:24.160 in which you're reflecting on or sort of or just 3:21:24.160 --> 3:21:27.800 celebrating like that the goals that you've actually accomplished, Right, 3:21:27.800 --> 3:21:29.560 you're just going to sort of be endlessly bashing your 3:21:29.560 --> 3:21:32.640 head against the wall. And you know that this is 3:21:32.680 --> 3:21:34.040 this is like, yeah, I mean this is this is 3:21:34.080 --> 3:21:36.800 sort of a burnout machine. This is a a way 3:21:36.840 --> 3:21:39.080 that you know, it's something that also just sort of 3:21:39.360 --> 3:21:43.039 feeds despair, which is that yeah, like you know, like yeah, okay, 3:21:43.040 --> 3:21:45.480 your your victory is a small victory, but it is 3:21:45.520 --> 3:21:50.000 a real one. And that's that's something that even in 3:21:50.000 --> 3:21:53.320 the face of sort of like the Cyclopean horror of 3:21:53.360 --> 3:21:56.080 like just the world that we're living in, like no, 3:21:56.720 --> 3:21:59.440 your your small victories dude lead up to bigger ones 3:22:00.160 --> 3:22:03.360 and yeah, and you know, and getting people to lose 3:22:03.400 --> 3:22:06.320 sight of that is a like it's it's in made 3:22:06.320 --> 3:22:08.800 your way. The system is held together by just sort 3:22:08.840 --> 3:22:12.200 of like manufacturing hopelessness, even when there there there are 3:22:12.280 --> 3:22:15.760 reasons for hoping, there are reasons to sort of look 3:22:15.760 --> 3:22:17.720 at what you've done and go, hey, we we won 3:22:17.800 --> 3:22:24.360 this thing. Definitely, Yeah, I think that's a I guess 3:22:24.440 --> 3:22:28.040 unexpectedly cheery for this show. I know, to end on 3:22:28.560 --> 3:22:34.920 do you have anything else? Yeah, I mean I think 3:22:34.959 --> 3:22:38.600 we touched on a lot um. I guess I have 3:22:39.160 --> 3:22:43.440 a usual pits or some version of it um, But 3:22:44.120 --> 3:22:53.560 I think um, maybe something to bring together different elements 3:22:53.560 --> 3:22:58.400 that we touched on and bringing some of the sheery, 3:22:58.560 --> 3:23:02.840 hopefulness and all so put out some encouragement too. I 3:23:02.879 --> 3:23:06.879 think now is a time where there's a whole lot 3:23:06.920 --> 3:23:09.880 of uncertainty and I'm uh you know, definitely and a 3:23:10.760 --> 3:23:14.160 global week to week or year to year scale, but 3:23:14.200 --> 3:23:16.120 also on an individual level. I think a lot of 3:23:16.400 --> 3:23:21.560 individuals right now, UM likely those that are listening UM, 3:23:21.600 --> 3:23:24.760 that that end up listening to this or um those 3:23:24.760 --> 3:23:26.680 that are like seeing what's happening around the worlds like, 3:23:26.720 --> 3:23:28.879 what is my role in all of this? What am 3:23:28.879 --> 3:23:32.039 I trying to do? Different people are joining different organizations 3:23:32.320 --> 3:23:35.680 and and and trying to figure out how they should 3:23:35.720 --> 3:23:38.000 be living their lives, what the what principles they should 3:23:38.000 --> 3:23:39.880 be living out, how they should be applying themselves to 3:23:40.560 --> 3:23:46.760 for example, UM, combat and dismantle UM, I don't know, 3:23:47.480 --> 3:23:52.279 uh capitalism and and and uh you know, the prison 3:23:52.320 --> 3:23:58.360 industrial complex and reverse climate destruction and find fascism and 3:23:58.800 --> 3:24:01.840 everything all of examples existential threats that we face. It's like, what, 3:24:02.160 --> 3:24:06.760 you know, what is my role? And I think, UM, 3:24:06.920 --> 3:24:17.240 if if you at all have the capacity and curiosity, 3:24:18.160 --> 3:24:24.039 UM two, engage in some of this deep work yourself 3:24:24.200 --> 3:24:30.400 for building community relationships, culture among UM. You know, just 3:24:30.959 --> 3:24:34.400 with workers, build building your own organization, building your own 3:24:34.840 --> 3:24:38.400 acts of resistance, building your own forms of of of 3:24:38.800 --> 3:24:42.119 you know, own forms of reclaiming your time and and 3:24:42.440 --> 3:24:46.000 minds and bodies, and build something beautiful that can you know, 3:24:46.040 --> 3:24:48.720 be part of a broader movement that that you know, 3:24:49.160 --> 3:24:52.920 lifts up working people, that kind of gets back what 3:24:52.959 --> 3:24:56.280 we are building and what we what we deserve. UM. 3:24:56.560 --> 3:24:59.840 You know, think about think about the logistics and the 3:25:00.040 --> 3:25:04.040 three think about warehouse work, UM, think about joining in 3:25:04.600 --> 3:25:09.680 UM and UH you know it's uh, it's hard work. 3:25:09.760 --> 3:25:14.640 It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental and emotional work. UM. 3:25:14.680 --> 3:25:23.560 But I think this is the future of what the winning, 3:25:24.080 --> 3:25:31.320 fighting uh successful labor movement UM will need. UM. And 3:25:31.360 --> 3:25:35.840 I think many people engaging and building more genuine, more 3:25:35.879 --> 3:25:41.760 worker focus, worker centered, worker run UH solidarity unions of 3:25:41.879 --> 3:25:48.280 our own democratic horizontal bottom up UM. I think building 3:25:48.360 --> 3:25:50.200 this way and connecting with each other, I think this 3:25:50.320 --> 3:25:52.920 is the way forward. I think this is the examples 3:25:53.000 --> 3:25:56.000 that we need. We need more people engaging in this work. 3:25:56.040 --> 3:26:01.879 We need more uh, more of that tension, energy and focus, 3:26:01.920 --> 3:26:05.200 Like how do we build the real stuff? UM, that's 3:26:05.240 --> 3:26:11.560 gonna be the powerful organizational influence to transform society and 3:26:11.720 --> 3:26:17.359 and avert these forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation, 3:26:17.680 --> 3:26:23.280 oppression of all of us. UM, join us, Join, join 3:26:23.360 --> 3:26:26.280 the struggle, get get some of these jobs. Talk to 3:26:26.280 --> 3:26:31.080 your co workers, build something that. It's really that simple. UM. 3:26:31.920 --> 3:26:39.320 And uh, yeah, that's my that's my every day pitch. UM. So, 3:26:39.440 --> 3:26:42.800 if if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where 3:26:42.840 --> 3:26:47.560 where where can they find y'all? UM? So in Chicago. 3:26:47.840 --> 3:26:53.160 So Amazonians United Chicago Land UM is our name. We 3:26:53.200 --> 3:26:56.360 have a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. UM. Those 3:26:56.360 --> 3:27:02.080 are probably where we're most active, UM, and where you 3:27:02.120 --> 3:27:04.959 can follow and get into contact with us. Tweet out us, 3:27:05.200 --> 3:27:11.320 message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM, 3:27:11.360 --> 3:27:15.760 you can email us at a you Chicago land at 3:27:15.800 --> 3:27:19.560 gmail dot com. UM. But otherwise, yeah, just look up, 3:27:19.800 --> 3:27:22.240 you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we 3:27:22.320 --> 3:27:26.400 post occasionally about what's going on. UM, and uh, you know, 3:27:26.480 --> 3:27:29.560 feel free to reach out, get into contact, ask any 3:27:29.640 --> 3:27:33.160 questions you might have, UM, and you know, let's connect, 3:27:33.200 --> 3:27:36.959 let's build community. Yeah, and that's that's a Chicagoland at 3:27:37.000 --> 3:27:42.360 a Chicago Land on Twitter. By the way, yeah. Um yeah, 3:27:42.440 --> 3:27:45.000 sweet Ted, thank you, thank you so thank you so 3:27:45.080 --> 3:27:48.680 much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, 3:27:48.720 --> 3:27:51.600 that's really great. Um yeah, if you want to find 3:27:52.520 --> 3:27:56.440 us at you can find us at Happened here a 3:27:56.480 --> 3:28:00.200 pod on Twitter, Instagram and coos on media in the 3:28:00.280 --> 3:28:04.200 same places. Um yeah, go go go work nice with 3:28:04.240 --> 3:28:06.680 your coworkers, go do cool things, go be do all 3:28:06.720 --> 3:28:14.080 a better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure, um yeah, thank you, 3:28:14.840 --> 3:28:32.800 thank you, arned, arned me arties. This is me doing 3:28:32.840 --> 3:28:36.240 a priorate voice, which is kind of a bad, bad 3:28:36.280 --> 3:28:40.440 Irish voice. That's enough. That's enough of that. Um, hi, 3:28:40.560 --> 3:28:42.080 welcome to take it oppen here in the show where 3:28:42.080 --> 3:28:45.800 we're talking about things that could possibly happen and or 3:28:46.080 --> 3:28:50.400 are happening, and go your hartsed l D. I'm Carrison. 3:28:51.120 --> 3:28:54.560 Welcome to this tech centric episode. This is very exciting 3:28:55.080 --> 3:28:59.600 with me, is Chris to help us discuss libraries and 3:29:00.000 --> 3:29:05.480 a racy argent brain and and pay walls and all 3:29:05.520 --> 3:29:08.720 this all this fun stuff. So yeah, we're talking about 3:29:08.760 --> 3:29:12.520 kind of free access to information and uh, I don't know, 3:29:12.680 --> 3:29:15.920 like I really like libraries and I think a library 3:29:15.959 --> 3:29:19.360 based economy would be pretty cool. Yeah, you know, libraries 3:29:19.400 --> 3:29:23.879 for everything. Uh, food libraries you to take food, need 3:29:23.879 --> 3:29:28.160 a deposit compost um with the decent, decent system. Got 3:29:28.160 --> 3:29:31.240 the tool libraries so you can get you know, your 3:29:31.240 --> 3:29:34.320 angle grinders for taking apart in federal fences. You can 3:29:34.360 --> 3:29:37.240 get your you know, soldering irons for building your f 3:29:37.360 --> 3:29:39.480 GC nines, you know, all all of all of the 3:29:39.480 --> 3:29:43.240 basic stuff. And I guess book libraries are cool too, um, 3:29:43.320 --> 3:29:45.160 But we already have those, and we're gonna be We're 3:29:45.160 --> 3:29:47.039 gonna be talking with them a little bit. Where are 3:29:47.120 --> 3:29:51.320 we having a discussion on pay walls, piracy, ar and 3:29:51.440 --> 3:29:55.400 uh and how access to information is actually good? Um, 3:29:55.520 --> 3:29:58.080 contrary to what many people want to tell you. Yeah, 3:29:58.080 --> 3:30:04.240 I know though. Yeah. As a as the Internet became 3:30:04.280 --> 3:30:08.960 easier to access and information flow accelerated, there's been kind 3:30:09.000 --> 3:30:14.039 of questions and speculation on how physical book libraries will 3:30:14.040 --> 3:30:18.400 fit into our increasingly digital media landscape. Now, it's important 3:30:18.400 --> 3:30:20.440 to mention that the library is also one of the 3:30:20.440 --> 3:30:23.880 main ways for lower income people to access the internet 3:30:24.520 --> 3:30:26.680 UM with their you know collection of free to use 3:30:26.720 --> 3:30:30.600 computers as well as you know, a decent WiFi connection UM. 3:30:30.680 --> 3:30:34.160 And many many libraries also are expanding their scope to 3:30:34.240 --> 3:30:37.160 include stuff like maker spaces as well as you know, 3:30:37.240 --> 3:30:41.760 their printers and standard kind of office supplies. So libraries 3:30:41.760 --> 3:30:45.200 are already kind of beyond just places to get printed media. 3:30:45.480 --> 3:30:47.240 But of course it is that is kind of their 3:30:47.440 --> 3:30:49.959 one that has been their main their main premise. But 3:30:50.040 --> 3:30:53.320 you know, they've been, they've been including stuff regarding e books, 3:30:54.360 --> 3:30:56.760 computer use, WiFi access, all the stuff has been a 3:30:56.800 --> 3:31:01.360 part of libraries for like the past twenty years. Of Yeah, 3:31:01.480 --> 3:31:03.080 like it's it's not. It's not. It's not. It's not. 3:31:03.160 --> 3:31:04.800 It's not a new thing. But I think when when 3:31:04.800 --> 3:31:07.160 people think of libraries, we just think of books, are 3:31:07.280 --> 3:31:09.879 newspapers and stuff, but it is, it is definitely more 3:31:09.920 --> 3:31:13.039 than that. Because yeah, obviously physical libraries are mostly known 3:31:13.040 --> 3:31:16.400 for printing materials, and because we'll be talking about paywalls 3:31:16.520 --> 3:31:21.039 and piracy are um and and fears that access to 3:31:21.080 --> 3:31:24.840 free content will negatively impact creator's ability to make such content, 3:31:25.280 --> 3:31:28.039 I figured let's start by talking about book libraries, since 3:31:28.080 --> 3:31:31.320 they're one of the oldest examples of providing information for free. 3:31:32.080 --> 3:31:35.600 So based on kind of surveys and data collected from 3:31:35.800 --> 3:31:38.960 you from library users across the country, it would seem 3:31:39.080 --> 3:31:42.600 that libraries and loaned e books are actually a very 3:31:42.640 --> 3:31:46.640 powerful economic engine for the book business. Now, yes, libraries 3:31:46.680 --> 3:31:48.720 do have special deals to buy the books that you 3:31:48.800 --> 3:31:52.960 have in stock. Sometimes they're donated. But even beyond that fact, 3:31:53.160 --> 3:31:56.440 like library users, like the fact that libraries exist for 3:31:56.520 --> 3:32:00.960 the users in and of themselves, increase book sales. Um, 3:32:01.000 --> 3:32:04.440 it's it's a it's it's pretty fun. So even as 3:32:04.480 --> 3:32:07.920 far back as there's been studies that show that libraries 3:32:08.040 --> 3:32:10.920 do increase book sales. Now, yes, this is this is 3:32:11.120 --> 3:32:15.039 this is a capitalist argument. But sometimes when arguing with 3:32:15.160 --> 3:32:17.600 let's you know, let's call them normies, Um, you can 3:32:17.640 --> 3:32:19.440 convince them to agree with a lot of kind of 3:32:19.480 --> 3:32:23.800 like anarchy leaning improvements to the world by carefully using 3:32:23.840 --> 3:32:25.959 their own rhetoric against them. Right, this is this is 3:32:26.000 --> 3:32:28.920 like the same thing with the giving out free drugs 3:32:28.959 --> 3:32:32.800 and having safe drug in in like intake sites, and 3:32:32.920 --> 3:32:34.920 giving your houses to homeless people, you know, all all 3:32:34.920 --> 3:32:37.080 the type of stuff. You know, all of those things 3:32:37.160 --> 3:32:40.080 are cheaper for the taxpayers than what we're currently doing 3:32:40.120 --> 3:32:42.720 with how we use emergencies, like how for how we 3:32:42.800 --> 3:32:46.440 use emergency services spending. So, yes, it's a capitalist argument, 3:32:46.600 --> 3:32:48.840 but you can still kind of you know, paint someone 3:32:48.920 --> 3:32:52.800 into a corner to agree that like actual good improvements 3:32:53.000 --> 3:32:55.840 by using hey, this is actually cheaper, you know that 3:32:55.840 --> 3:32:59.960 that type of argument. So yeah, libraries, they do increase 3:33:00.000 --> 3:33:02.959 book sales, so that is mostly cool. There is there 3:33:03.000 --> 3:33:05.400 was a study that shows around this is studying around 3:33:06.680 --> 3:33:10.279 showed that library users report purchasing books by an author 3:33:10.520 --> 3:33:13.720 that they were introduced to through the library system, which 3:33:13.800 --> 3:33:16.520 debunks the myth that want a library bias books the 3:33:16.560 --> 3:33:20.440 publisher will lose future sales. Um. Instead, it confirms that 3:33:20.800 --> 3:33:24.000 the public library does not only incubate and support literacy 3:33:24.400 --> 3:33:26.560 as it's you know, generally understood in our culture, but 3:33:26.600 --> 3:33:29.879 it's also an active partner with the publishing industry for 3:33:30.080 --> 3:33:33.280 building up the book market and also including in that 3:33:33.640 --> 3:33:36.960 is the ever growing e book market, which I don't 3:33:36.959 --> 3:33:39.320 really like the books for reasons will kind of discuss 3:33:39.400 --> 3:33:41.000 in a bit for how I kind of have an 3:33:41.000 --> 3:33:44.600 aversion to the idea of like digital ownership, But the 3:33:44.760 --> 3:33:49.120 books are undeniably a very growing industry that also you know, 3:33:49.240 --> 3:33:53.680 does does support writers in a lot of ways. Um. 3:33:53.720 --> 3:33:56.200 But I think physical books are a lot cooler and 3:33:56.320 --> 3:33:59.320 more reliable. They are, as you can tell by my 3:33:59.480 --> 3:34:02.080 very nice physical book collection behind me, which you cannot 3:34:02.120 --> 3:34:04.320 listen to because this is a podcast and you can't 3:34:04.320 --> 3:34:06.800 listen with your ears unless you're on a lot of drugs, 3:34:06.879 --> 3:34:09.960 which good luck hearing the books behind me. People who 3:34:09.959 --> 3:34:14.960 listen to Yeah you too, but yeah, I'm not. I'm 3:34:15.000 --> 3:34:18.920 not talking about them. Um, this is an anti people 3:34:18.959 --> 3:34:24.280 who have jug induced cynthesia podcast. Now, Lucky Bastard's gonna 3:34:24.320 --> 3:34:31.879 get canceled. Oh yeah, that's what's gonna get me after all. Well, 3:34:31.920 --> 3:34:36.039 bleep that I can't belave you said that? Whoa Chris 3:34:36.120 --> 3:34:38.560 just said one of the just one of the most, 3:34:39.080 --> 3:34:41.320 one of the most one of the most horrible authors 3:34:41.360 --> 3:34:43.200 that I would never be caught dead reading any of 3:34:43.240 --> 3:34:50.600 their books. Um anyway. Ah So, the idea that like 3:34:50.720 --> 3:34:56.480 piracy and free information will like tank creative industries, and 3:34:56.520 --> 3:34:58.960 you know, the idea that you know, just having access 3:34:59.000 --> 3:35:02.600 to free version of media will hurt the ability to 3:35:02.680 --> 3:35:06.119 make more of the media is definitely proven wrong simply 3:35:06.240 --> 3:35:10.840 by the modern existence and popularity of nume uh in 3:35:10.879 --> 3:35:14.560 the United States, because we would not have anime Animal 3:35:14.560 --> 3:35:17.760 would not be what it is today without piracy. Uh 3:35:17.800 --> 3:35:20.400 and uh because in the in the specifically like two 3:35:20.440 --> 3:35:24.320 thousands late nineties, the piracy of anime became you know, 3:35:24.720 --> 3:35:27.440 big massive reason why it is the cultural jugg or 3:35:27.480 --> 3:35:30.360 not that it is. Today over half of nime related 3:35:30.440 --> 3:35:34.640 sales revenue comes from overseas, not not Japan, it comes 3:35:34.640 --> 3:35:37.200 from places like the States. Yeah, and you know, and 3:35:37.240 --> 3:35:40.160 it's also I think worth mentioning here, Like it wasn't 3:35:40.200 --> 3:35:43.000 even just that they were like pirating the show, right, 3:35:43.000 --> 3:35:45.920 they were pirating they were getting a worse version of it, 3:35:46.120 --> 3:35:51.040 oh because like you know, yeah, terrible resolutions like I 3:35:51.080 --> 3:35:54.440 mean literally like VCRs that people had figured out how 3:35:54.480 --> 3:35:58.119 to like right like get subtitles on. Like these versions 3:35:58.120 --> 3:35:59.959 of it are terrible. The translations are awful, and it's 3:36:00.080 --> 3:36:05.480 still just like absolutely like just catapulted anime from like 3:36:05.720 --> 3:36:08.320 an incredibly fringe thing for weirdos to a thing that 3:36:08.440 --> 3:36:11.720 is also still for weirdos, but it's still mainstream. Yeah, 3:36:12.000 --> 3:36:14.879 I'm gonna I'm gonna take take this opportunity to plug 3:36:14.959 --> 3:36:19.440 our future episode just dissecting the politics of attack on 3:36:19.560 --> 3:36:23.760 tited dot dot dot do it's coming folks and strap 3:36:23.800 --> 3:36:29.560 in so yes, what not would not be the thing 3:36:29.640 --> 3:36:33.120 is today without without without privacy. And again but the 3:36:33.160 --> 3:36:37.920 majority of of sales revenue comes from not Japan. So yeah, 3:36:38.160 --> 3:36:43.600 that's that's a pretty pretty pretty clear. So the discovery 3:36:43.600 --> 3:36:46.680 of new books and authors through the library system UM 3:36:46.720 --> 3:36:49.680 is definitely searching right now, actually specifically due to e 3:36:49.800 --> 3:36:54.840 books and audio books being available online anytime, well like 3:36:55.120 --> 3:36:57.680 via library means. So there's like, you know, there's there's 3:36:57.680 --> 3:37:00.720 ways you can access you can quote unquote sorrow these 3:37:00.720 --> 3:37:04.120 types of things via via the library systems, despite them 3:37:04.160 --> 3:37:07.520 being like digital media, which again I prefer physical, but 3:37:07.600 --> 3:37:11.280 that's that's something we'll talk about later. So even even 3:37:11.320 --> 3:37:14.800 while lib visits to libraries and like physical bookstores, a 3:37:14.879 --> 3:37:19.280 pommeted during COVID nineteen digital library usage sword, which is 3:37:19.320 --> 3:37:21.840 you know that that that that that that tracks UM, 3:37:21.959 --> 3:37:25.879 more than four hundred and thirty million titles were borrowed 3:37:25.959 --> 3:37:31.560 from the Overdrive library platform in alone, and it would 3:37:31.600 --> 3:37:35.040 you know, you could you could assume that this would 3:37:35.040 --> 3:37:37.840 cause a drop in the purchasing of books during the 3:37:37.879 --> 3:37:41.600 same period, but the opposite is true. Actually, the overall 3:37:41.640 --> 3:37:44.800 purchasing of books also rose in twenty including an eight 3:37:44.800 --> 3:37:47.680 percent lift in these sales of print books. Despite a 3:37:47.680 --> 3:37:50.120 lot of people being out of jobs, out of work, 3:37:50.560 --> 3:37:52.879 you know that turns out people are boards. They're gonna 3:37:52.879 --> 3:37:55.720 spend money on books because books are cool, and even 3:37:55.760 --> 3:37:59.080 when they have access to library stuff, they still buy books. 3:38:00.200 --> 3:38:02.280 It's a it's a it's a simple truth that the 3:38:02.520 --> 3:38:06.160 library patrons are usually also book buyers. It's it's me. 3:38:06.360 --> 3:38:09.320 I am literally surrounded by books on all sides that 3:38:09.400 --> 3:38:12.200 they have me surrounded. I have no escape. And this 3:38:12.240 --> 3:38:13.640 is what happens when you grow up in a library. 3:38:14.000 --> 3:38:15.800 I mean I also grew up in a library. Mean 3:38:15.800 --> 3:38:18.840 I was, I was homeschooled. I a library. To my 3:38:19.400 --> 3:38:22.199 to to my left, I have books on urban exploration 3:38:22.280 --> 3:38:26.000 and Lemony Snicket. My right, I have books on alchemy. 3:38:26.080 --> 3:38:28.200 Behind me, I have books which I should I'll not 3:38:28.360 --> 3:38:32.040 name um. And behind me I have a massive techo 3:38:32.080 --> 3:38:35.480 comic books of Yeah, I have usually surrounded by books. 3:38:35.879 --> 3:38:38.760 It's the books are great and you you have them 3:38:38.879 --> 3:38:41.280 unless they burn up. You're gonna have them, no matter 3:38:41.320 --> 3:38:45.000 whether the Internet goes out, whether whether an online provider 3:38:45.040 --> 3:38:47.480 shuts down, You're gonna you're gonna have physical books. They 3:38:47.480 --> 3:38:50.400 are they are, they are pretty, they're pretty cool. So 3:38:51.680 --> 3:38:54.480 in libraries, and like the library system offers a really 3:38:54.480 --> 3:38:58.600 great way to discover new books, new series, new genres, 3:38:58.680 --> 3:39:01.760 or new authors, but for deciding whether to permanently purchase 3:39:01.800 --> 3:39:04.039 those titles. So it's it's this isn't just like an 3:39:04.080 --> 3:39:06.600 assumption used to hype up the idea of a library. 3:39:07.040 --> 3:39:09.080 But this has been proven by lots of studies, like 3:39:09.120 --> 3:39:10.959 the why I mentioned a few minutes ago from two 3:39:11.040 --> 3:39:15.000 US and eleven. Also there was the Panorama Projects Immersive 3:39:15.440 --> 3:39:20.320 Media and Books Consumer Survey which is a way too 3:39:20.360 --> 3:39:23.560 long with a title real Mouthful, which found that one 3:39:23.600 --> 3:39:26.880 third of responders bought a book that they discovered through 3:39:26.879 --> 3:39:30.440 the library in So it turns out you you discover 3:39:30.520 --> 3:39:31.760 a book, you turn it and you're like, hey, that 3:39:31.760 --> 3:39:33.840 book actually pretty good. I'll just buy a copy myself. 3:39:34.200 --> 3:39:36.600 I did that. I still do that all the time. 3:39:37.120 --> 3:39:40.360 It's ah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a thing. 3:39:40.640 --> 3:39:44.160 So why I own all my Star Wars books? This 3:39:44.240 --> 3:39:46.640 is why I have a beautiful copy of Splinter in 3:39:46.680 --> 3:39:51.520 the Mind's Eye, which I am very curious to see 3:39:51.680 --> 3:39:54.840 who will get that joke. I was trying. I was 3:39:54.840 --> 3:39:56.320 trying to think of the worst Star worst book that 3:39:56.360 --> 3:39:57.560 I have, and then you said that, I'm like, I 3:39:57.600 --> 3:40:01.920 can't I think actually have that. Well, there you go, 3:40:02.000 --> 3:40:08.640 there's there's two. There's two for you. Uh yeah. So 3:40:08.920 --> 3:40:11.320 in our kind of in our life technology driven world 3:40:11.360 --> 3:40:13.400 of like, you know, wanting things very quickly, you know, 3:40:13.600 --> 3:40:18.080 instant instant gratification. UM. Library users are no different. Right, 3:40:18.080 --> 3:40:21.920 they still have that instant gratification drive, and many times 3:40:21.959 --> 3:40:24.160 they will want a specific a book and they'll be 3:40:24.200 --> 3:40:26.280 happy to pay for it instead of waiting for at 3:40:26.280 --> 3:40:28.480 the library. Right, you can put a book on hold, 3:40:28.480 --> 3:40:30.720 await a month, or you can buy it for ten bucks, 3:40:30.720 --> 3:40:33.200 and oftentimes people will buy the book because we want 3:40:33.240 --> 3:40:38.000 things quickly. It's according to the same Panorama Project Immersive 3:40:38.040 --> 3:40:43.800 the Media and Books consumer survey, about of respondents said 3:40:43.800 --> 3:40:47.400 that they just bought books rather than waiting for them 3:40:47.440 --> 3:40:51.200 if they are unavailable from from the library at the time. So, 3:40:51.959 --> 3:40:55.240 and it's it's it's a great system. Like libraries are 3:40:55.240 --> 3:40:58.160 also frequently used just as like a really good browsing tool. Uh. 3:40:58.320 --> 3:41:00.000 You know, if you're unsure what you want to read next, 3:41:00.240 --> 3:41:02.280 you can go to the library look at stuff and 3:41:02.240 --> 3:41:03.760 to be like, okay, this is what I'm interested in, 3:41:04.040 --> 3:41:07.039 and then purchase it online or in person at a 3:41:07.120 --> 3:41:10.560 later date. And it's not just it's not not not 3:41:10.560 --> 3:41:14.880 not just physical books. Library users are also are also 3:41:14.959 --> 3:41:18.600 driving the purchase e books and physical books um and 3:41:18.720 --> 3:41:21.480 audio books. Audiobooks have been actually very big at library. 3:41:21.520 --> 3:41:22.800 I used to listen to a lot of audio books 3:41:22.840 --> 3:41:25.720 actually from the library because I would get c d 3:41:26.000 --> 3:41:30.080 s back when those great for road trips, back in 3:41:30.120 --> 3:41:33.240 the oldie days, when you had a c D I 3:41:33.400 --> 3:41:39.520 say with my gen z uh um outlook Yes, uh 3:41:39.879 --> 3:41:43.560 c d s classic classic. According to the Audio Publishers 3:41:43.600 --> 3:41:47.720 Association also known as the a P A just acronym, 3:41:49.000 --> 3:41:54.640 daily audiobo consumption has grown seventy one since, which is 3:41:54.640 --> 3:41:56.920 not surprising me. Like there's there's there's stuff like Audible 3:41:57.000 --> 3:41:59.520 and you know, big big platforms that are are making 3:41:59.640 --> 3:42:03.879 high quality audiobook content. Uh, but that's that's that's a 3:42:03.920 --> 3:42:10.920 lot um alone. Audio book a revenue grew by even 3:42:11.120 --> 3:42:14.400 even though the number of people who were commuting plummeted, 3:42:14.440 --> 3:42:16.039 right because a lot of people listen to audiobooks while 3:42:16.080 --> 3:42:18.440 like driving to work. So the number of you know, 3:42:18.480 --> 3:42:21.200 of commuting dropped in because there was this plague. I'm 3:42:21.200 --> 3:42:23.560 not sure if you've heard about that, but they still 3:42:26.520 --> 3:42:29.800 that's true they're pretending it's not real. But if yeah, 3:42:29.879 --> 3:42:32.400 if if if, if you look at most if you 3:42:32.440 --> 3:42:35.800 look at you know, the the audiobook revenue, it grew 3:42:35.959 --> 3:42:40.119 despite their being much less much less um much less 3:42:40.200 --> 3:42:43.200 work commuting. And that was the eighth straight year of 3:42:43.240 --> 3:42:47.760 double of double digit growth in the audio book revenue sector. 3:42:48.080 --> 3:42:51.240 And it aligns with other kind of digital library usage statistics. 3:42:51.800 --> 3:42:57.000 So yeah, like libraries and booksellers, will they work in tandem. 3:42:57.160 --> 3:43:02.040 They they library's drive interest or content both physical and digital. 3:43:02.680 --> 3:43:06.560 You know, rising tide races, all all of those floaty 3:43:06.600 --> 3:43:09.720 things on the water. Um as the saying goes are 3:43:09.959 --> 3:43:16.280 it's a piracy joke, everybody. Yeah. Over Drive has found 3:43:16.320 --> 3:43:19.320 that when a reader uses one or more digital library 3:43:19.360 --> 3:43:21.760 apps like a Libby I've never heard of until I 3:43:21.800 --> 3:43:25.000 had to research on this podcast, but once you if 3:43:25.000 --> 3:43:27.280 you use more than one one or more digit digital 3:43:27.280 --> 3:43:32.039 library apps you're sixty, you are more likely to increase 3:43:32.080 --> 3:43:34.959 your book consumption year over year versus people who do not. 3:43:35.160 --> 3:43:36.959 So yeah, it turns out when you read more books, 3:43:36.959 --> 3:43:41.280 you want to read more books because it's fun. It's fun. 3:43:41.680 --> 3:43:44.320 So instead of instead of reading a book, I'm going 3:43:44.360 --> 3:43:47.120 to give our audio listeners an opportunity right now to 3:43:47.240 --> 3:43:51.520 listen to this carefully curated selection of ads unless they're 3:43:51.600 --> 3:43:54.120 by like, I don't know, the National Guard or whatever. 3:43:54.240 --> 3:43:57.200 So here you go, here's here's some ads, and we 3:43:57.280 --> 3:44:01.119 are back. What a lovely, lovely collection of audio treats 3:44:01.160 --> 3:44:08.520 to tickle your ears. Okay, okay, you're god speaking speaking 3:44:08.560 --> 3:44:12.440 of tickling your ears. Sonic the Hedgehog. So a lot 3:44:12.480 --> 3:44:15.879 of a lot of the reasons why we're gonna so 3:44:16.640 --> 3:44:19.680 this this, this will make sense, I promise. Um, we're 3:44:19.720 --> 3:44:27.360 about to talk about fly genetics, ssh Sonic Hedgehog. We're 3:44:27.360 --> 3:44:30.120 talking about how like when people are allowed to like 3:44:30.160 --> 3:44:33.080 do piracy and allowed to do like their own things 3:44:33.120 --> 3:44:35.879 with media and actually boosts the overall kind of like 3:44:35.959 --> 3:44:39.279 the presence of the franchise. Right, So, Sonic the Hedgehog 3:44:39.280 --> 3:44:42.200 would not be a current cultural steak if it wasn't 3:44:42.200 --> 3:44:44.840 for fan culture and the use of like fan games 3:44:44.920 --> 3:44:48.160 and fan media related to Sonic. So the same thing 3:44:48.200 --> 3:44:52.000 with like anime, right, Um, you know, Sonic Sonic fan games, 3:44:52.000 --> 3:44:53.800 which were allowed to be existed for years, which they 3:44:53.800 --> 3:44:55.959 get encouraged, are the only reason why there's a good 3:44:55.959 --> 3:44:58.400 Sonic Games right now, Like Sonic Mania, which were just 3:44:58.440 --> 3:45:01.280 they just hired people who made fan game. Um, the 3:45:01.320 --> 3:45:04.120 person who redesigned Sonic the Hedgehog for the movie what 3:45:04.360 --> 3:45:09.080 used to make Sonic fan comics and then got hired 3:45:09.080 --> 3:45:11.280 to make the actual official Sonic comics. Then they got 3:45:11.360 --> 3:45:13.480 hired to fix them. They got hired to fix the 3:45:13.520 --> 3:45:17.160 horrible movie design. So yeah, say, it has been very 3:45:17.160 --> 3:45:21.640 good about like not being horrible about like copyright stuff 3:45:21.680 --> 3:45:24.120 and trademark stuff. They've like really encouraged it because it 3:45:24.160 --> 3:45:27.440 turns out when you when you yourself don't make good games, 3:45:27.480 --> 3:45:30.520 you need to rely on fans to actually make the 3:45:30.600 --> 3:45:33.240 good games. So we get so that's how you get 3:45:33.240 --> 3:45:36.720 beautiful creations like the Sonic Dreams Collection, which is a heartwarming, 3:45:37.240 --> 3:45:41.560 nostalgic look at Sonic through the Ages um, and other 3:45:41.600 --> 3:45:45.560 great games like Sonic Mania, which so we can compare 3:45:45.640 --> 3:45:49.800 this to like a Nintendo who unfortunately makes good games um, 3:45:49.879 --> 3:45:52.440 but also hates when fans make games or do like 3:45:52.480 --> 3:45:55.880 emulation or any like ports. They will clamp down on 3:45:56.000 --> 3:45:59.920 that so fast. If you ever emulate a Nintendo game, 3:46:00.280 --> 3:46:03.480 you know, watch watch your back. There will be there 3:46:03.480 --> 3:46:06.080 will be men in black students following you around just 3:46:06.440 --> 3:46:10.040 like to understanding of like how far this goes? Right, 3:46:10.080 --> 3:46:12.760 So Super Smash Bros And Bilet this game is like 3:46:13.520 --> 3:46:17.040 maybe older than Garrison. It is. I think I actually 3:46:17.040 --> 3:46:19.240 don't know what that trade, but yeah, literally old and Garrison. Right, 3:46:19.400 --> 3:46:22.520 this game has a still still to this day, Like 3:46:22.920 --> 3:46:25.160 copies of this game are extremely expensive because there's an 3:46:25.240 --> 3:46:30.200 enormous professional scene around it. Uh. Nintendo like basically was 3:46:30.240 --> 3:46:33.039 working to actively smash them because they were they were 3:46:33.080 --> 3:46:36.400 playing a yeah yeah, yeah, because they because they were 3:46:36.440 --> 3:46:39.400 playing on like an emulated like they're playing an emulated 3:46:39.480 --> 3:46:43.320 version of it for tournaments because it's emulated software. Yeah yeah. 3:46:43.440 --> 3:46:47.800 And Nintendo again, who is literally getting like millions of 3:46:47.879 --> 3:46:51.440 views of completely free good publicity, was like, no, we 3:46:51.560 --> 3:46:56.080 hate you. Nintendo will like this when people use they're 3:46:56.360 --> 3:46:58.879 they're like there their content and stuff in ways that 3:46:58.920 --> 3:47:02.280 are not not not afficill and because they make decent games, 3:47:02.280 --> 3:47:05.560 they can actually get away with that, um sega, let's 3:47:05.600 --> 3:47:08.200 not make decent games that questioning. So they have to 3:47:08.200 --> 3:47:10.480 rely on fans doing that. But yeah, that's the reason 3:47:10.520 --> 3:47:13.080 why Sonic is still a thing, just because fans have 3:47:13.080 --> 3:47:16.240 have been able to you know, through through piracy, through 3:47:16.280 --> 3:47:19.760 emulation through creating, through ucing like Sonic code to code 3:47:19.760 --> 3:47:22.200 their own games all stuff. As is the reason why 3:47:22.280 --> 3:47:25.240 that's still like a cultural staple. That is releasing a 3:47:25.240 --> 3:47:27.320 new movie next month. But I'm very excited about I'm 3:47:27.400 --> 3:47:29.200 very excited about some Sonic that he had hug too. 3:47:29.440 --> 3:47:32.040 It's gonna be, It's gonna be. I'm thinking, I'm thinking 3:47:32.040 --> 3:47:34.240 it could we could finally clamp down on the video 3:47:34.240 --> 3:47:37.920 game Oscar this time. I feel it. Well, that's that's look, 3:47:38.000 --> 3:47:40.880 this is this this this is just because Ace Attorney 3:47:40.879 --> 3:47:45.959 got robbed. Okay, createst movie of all time. That is 3:47:46.000 --> 3:47:49.080 That is my little side bit about about about about 3:47:49.120 --> 3:47:53.560 sega Um. Yeah, we should also briefly mentioned that Nintendo 3:47:53.680 --> 3:47:56.160 just like put literally put a guy in prison for 3:47:56.240 --> 3:48:00.160 helping for helping jailbreak consoles, like put putting man in 3:48:00.320 --> 3:48:05.039 prison for this for modifying people's software and a game console. 3:48:05.320 --> 3:48:07.000 I guess the other thing I'll talk about is, like, 3:48:08.000 --> 3:48:09.400 I mean, part of the reason why I really don't 3:48:09.440 --> 3:48:12.040 like digital ownership of media is because you don't actually 3:48:12.400 --> 3:48:15.240 own the thing. You own a license to use the 3:48:15.280 --> 3:48:17.640 content as long as the online services active. So even 3:48:17.680 --> 3:48:21.000 if you buy a game on you know, the Nintendo 3:48:21.040 --> 3:48:23.320 Switch Store. You're not actually buying the game, you're buying 3:48:23.320 --> 3:48:25.360 a license to use the game. The same thing for 3:48:25.400 --> 3:48:28.080 whether you're buying media on like Amazon Prime, right, it's 3:48:28.080 --> 3:48:30.160 it's it's it's the same thing if you're if you're 3:48:30.160 --> 3:48:32.600 buying digital copy of it, it's a license to use it, 3:48:33.000 --> 3:48:35.480 so you can take you know, what Nintendo has done 3:48:35.680 --> 3:48:37.880 a few years ago is they shut down the U 3:48:38.080 --> 3:48:40.520 Shop channel, which means if you bought a game and 3:48:40.520 --> 3:48:43.600 it wasn't creantly downloaded, you can now you've just it's gone. 3:48:43.640 --> 3:48:45.520 You just cannot you cannot play it anymore because they 3:48:45.560 --> 3:48:48.800 just completely took service down, so you don't actually you're 3:48:48.800 --> 3:48:50.280 not you're not actually buying the thing, you're just buying 3:48:50.320 --> 3:48:52.400 a license to use the thing. Now. They did the 3:48:52.440 --> 3:48:55.000 same thing a few months ago for the w U 3:48:55.120 --> 3:48:58.040 Shop channel and the three D S channel. So yeah, 3:48:58.320 --> 3:49:02.000 rip ripped to that. If you if you if you have, 3:49:02.160 --> 3:49:05.040 if you bought games on there that we're not currently running, 3:49:05.320 --> 3:49:07.560 then you cannot get them anymore. They're just gone, like 3:49:07.600 --> 3:49:10.680 you can, they're just lost lost of time. Well and 3:49:10.720 --> 3:49:12.640 you know, and again, if if you if you modified 3:49:12.640 --> 3:49:15.520 the software on the game console, that you like nominally 3:49:15.560 --> 3:49:17.600 own in order to play the games that you bought 3:49:17.640 --> 3:49:19.880 and paid for. They will throw you in prison. Nintendo 3:49:19.920 --> 3:49:23.080 will send men in suits to come and get you 3:49:23.160 --> 3:49:27.920 and throw you in the prison. Yeah. Who he it's 3:49:27.920 --> 3:49:31.960 a it's a Mario. It's a Mario joke. Everybody. Um, yes, So, 3:49:32.240 --> 3:49:34.560 I mean it's the same thing with like subscription services. 3:49:34.600 --> 3:49:36.680 Like obviously, if you have a subscription service, you don't 3:49:36.720 --> 3:49:40.280 own the content you're watching. You are just getting permission 3:49:40.280 --> 3:49:41.600 to use it from a certain amount of time. So 3:49:41.680 --> 3:49:44.200 this is obviously. This is this is more obvious. Right, 3:49:44.520 --> 3:49:47.160 you don't owe what's on Netflix. You just are able 3:49:47.240 --> 3:49:50.200 to watch what Netflix has legal rights to show. But 3:49:50.240 --> 3:49:53.880 you even see this thing extended to like cars, like 3:49:54.120 --> 3:49:57.960 Toyota was was trying out a program and that this 3:49:58.000 --> 3:49:59.720 may even it may even still be active for some 3:49:59.760 --> 3:50:03.360 car is where you need a subscription service to use 3:50:03.600 --> 3:50:07.080 the key fob on your cars like automat, like like 3:50:07.160 --> 3:50:10.560 door locking, like fob, like you need a subscription to 3:50:10.720 --> 3:50:13.760 use that service of it. Just like why, Like it's 3:50:13.880 --> 3:50:16.880 it's just turning everything, it's turning everything into us to 3:50:16.960 --> 3:50:19.160 us like a subscription service. It's horrible, Like everything is 3:50:19.160 --> 3:50:22.400 becoming a new subscription service, a new a new thing 3:50:22.480 --> 3:50:25.040 to get your monthly payments for. It's it's it's awful, 3:50:25.120 --> 3:50:28.040 like you don't actually buy things anymore. It's just a 3:50:28.080 --> 3:50:32.360 subscription services and digital copies. It's not nothing is nothing 3:50:32.440 --> 3:50:34.880 is actually the thing anymore? Yeah, it's it's it's all 3:50:34.920 --> 3:50:38.440 just rent extraction and the entire economy. Instead of you know, 3:50:38.560 --> 3:50:40.320 having a thing, they figured out way, what if we 3:50:40.360 --> 3:50:43.080 just distract rent and then you also don't own it. 3:50:43.200 --> 3:50:44.760 The same thing with like Tesla cars you have to 3:50:44.800 --> 3:50:49.560 like buy buy you know, upgrades via software that are 3:50:49.600 --> 3:50:53.120 already built in and like subscribe to keep your car 3:50:53.240 --> 3:50:56.920 running nicely. Like what it's not like no, yeah, like 3:50:57.000 --> 3:50:59.080 I'm gonna I'm gonna go on a very small game 3:50:59.120 --> 3:51:01.360 or rent here because this this is a this is 3:51:01.360 --> 3:51:03.360 the thing. A lot a lot of the worst practices 3:51:03.360 --> 3:51:06.000 for this rigidated gaming and this this was this was 3:51:06.040 --> 3:51:08.200 a big fight back in like the early thousand pens 3:51:08.200 --> 3:51:10.920 about okay, if you buy a game, right, do you 3:51:11.000 --> 3:51:13.560 own everything on the game. And there was a huge 3:51:13.560 --> 3:51:16.440 fight about you know, they have these like delayed DLC, 3:51:16.720 --> 3:51:18.480 like they have these new content packages that would be 3:51:18.560 --> 3:51:20.400 on the disc right that you've bought, but you can't 3:51:20.400 --> 3:51:23.000 access it unless you pay the money. And this was 3:51:23.040 --> 3:51:26.200 like a fight, and some gamers were like, you know, 3:51:26.200 --> 3:51:29.200 they're trying to fight it, right, but most gamers didn't care. 3:51:29.320 --> 3:51:31.360 And then they became the weaponized shock troops to the 3:51:31.360 --> 3:51:33.200 far right instead of you know, dealing with this ship. 3:51:33.320 --> 3:51:35.760 And now literally everything has fucking day and day one 3:51:35.800 --> 3:51:38.520 DLC on it that you buy the thing, you don't 3:51:38.520 --> 3:51:40.800 even get all you have to you have to buy 3:51:40.800 --> 3:51:42.960 the if you have to buy the season pass to 3:51:43.080 --> 3:51:45.440 get all the content in the future. It's like you 3:51:45.440 --> 3:51:47.080 have to buy the season pass for your car to 3:51:47.120 --> 3:51:50.560 work properly. Yeah, so this is just how capital it 3:51:50.680 --> 3:51:52.880 started with. Star started with the season pass for a 3:51:52.920 --> 3:51:55.680 sixty for a sixty dollar game to then buy season 3:51:55.680 --> 3:51:58.240 pass to get more of the game, and now it's 3:51:58.520 --> 3:52:05.280 for your fIF car. So yeah, that's fun. It's it's not, 3:52:05.360 --> 3:52:08.000 it's it's kind of sucks. So but yeah, a lot 3:52:08.040 --> 3:52:10.320 of these, a lot of these like play to win practices, 3:52:10.440 --> 3:52:13.440 these like free models which then like which lead into 3:52:13.480 --> 3:52:16.640 like a subscription service based model. Um have did da 3:52:16.680 --> 3:52:20.920 have definitely started in online gaming, and it's yeah, it's 3:52:20.960 --> 3:52:24.880 it's really frustrating because, as we'll talk about here in 3:52:24.920 --> 3:52:28.280 a bit, like the Sega model is like better, Like 3:52:28.520 --> 3:52:32.000 turns out when you encourage your fans to play around 3:52:32.000 --> 3:52:34.560 with the stuff, it only helps your property. Like that's 3:52:34.560 --> 3:52:37.120 the reason why they there's still Sonic March available now 3:52:37.120 --> 3:52:39.520 and it's not like a dead franchise. It's because they 3:52:39.760 --> 3:52:42.160 because they allowed that to happen. So it's actually really 3:52:42.200 --> 3:52:44.840 cool when we're allowed to access for information and play 3:52:44.880 --> 3:52:47.560 with it how we want to, instead of like having 3:52:47.600 --> 3:52:52.720 this weird strict copyright like rules for not allowing certain 3:52:52.800 --> 3:52:55.480 usage of certain things. Like it's it's it's not. It's 3:52:55.480 --> 3:52:58.720 not great when you're restricting like emulation, restricting fan games, 3:52:59.320 --> 3:53:03.080 restricting access to information. It's not. It's not. It's it's not. 3:53:03.200 --> 3:53:05.520 It's not fun. But yeah, this is kind of it's 3:53:05.560 --> 3:53:07.840 kind of place into why I am very skeptical of 3:53:07.840 --> 3:53:10.560 digital media, which to why I start started collecting blue 3:53:10.640 --> 3:53:12.760 rays and all of all the things they like, because 3:53:13.320 --> 3:53:15.560 I've botten things that Amazon Prime which are now no 3:53:15.600 --> 3:53:18.160 longer available on Amazon Prime and that sucks, so like 3:53:18.240 --> 3:53:22.040 why do that instead just buy your physical copy? Yeah, Well, 3:53:22.360 --> 3:53:24.080 the thing is like it didn't and it's so true 3:53:24.120 --> 3:53:25.920 to some extent, like if you buy physical copies, like 3:53:25.920 --> 3:53:28.160 it didn't used to be like this, like blue rays 3:53:28.960 --> 3:53:33.560 used to it to some extent, still dubious most things. Yeah, 3:53:33.640 --> 3:53:35.440 but like like if if you buy the physical copy 3:53:35.480 --> 3:53:37.080 of it, they will give you a code that lets 3:53:37.080 --> 3:53:40.240 you use the online version, a digital download code. Yeah. Yeah, 3:53:40.360 --> 3:53:43.200 and you know that's a much better way of the 3:53:43.280 --> 3:53:46.800 thing working than uh instead of you know, you don't 3:53:46.840 --> 3:53:48.800 buying it, you don't have the physical product, and also 3:53:48.880 --> 3:53:53.960 they can take it away from you. Yeah, it's I'll 3:53:53.960 --> 3:53:55.920 circle back to this idea towards the end, but I 3:53:56.000 --> 3:53:57.240 kind of want to, I want I want to a 3:53:57.240 --> 3:54:00.280 little bit segue to like the idea of the type 3:54:00.320 --> 3:54:05.480 of like paywalling, subscription service issues, and like the restriction 3:54:05.480 --> 3:54:09.320 of for information regarding online news. So, you know, there's 3:54:09.320 --> 3:54:13.160 a lot of people, whether they be like reporters, editors, authors, 3:54:13.240 --> 3:54:16.400 or just annoying people online. Um, but there's a decent 3:54:16.400 --> 3:54:19.240 collection of people that perpetuate the notion that readers or 3:54:19.280 --> 3:54:22.760 consumers are actually responsible for the dire straits of the 3:54:22.840 --> 3:54:27.280 media industry. But the problem with journalism and many other 3:54:27.360 --> 3:54:31.240 media you know, industries. But the problem isn't that people 3:54:31.280 --> 3:54:34.720 aren't paying for news. The problem is that newspapers and 3:54:34.720 --> 3:54:38.400 outlets are being decimated and dismantled by hedge funds, capital 3:54:38.440 --> 3:54:43.120 investment firms, venture capitalists, and tech companies in search of profit. UM. 3:54:43.120 --> 3:54:45.440 You can look at how Facebook tricked a whole bunch 3:54:45.440 --> 3:54:49.360 of companies into switching over to video content and then 3:54:49.480 --> 3:54:51.760 a whole bunch of companies had to fire tons of 3:54:51.760 --> 3:54:53.760 people because there was a lie. You can look at 3:54:53.760 --> 3:54:58.520 how Sinclair Broadcasting dominates local news channels and websites UM, 3:54:58.600 --> 3:55:01.560 and how well established local papers are struggling while big 3:55:01.600 --> 3:55:06.920 companies buy up all the competition. So it's it's it's 3:55:07.040 --> 3:55:09.520 especially the venture capitalist thing is actually a really UH 3:55:10.360 --> 3:55:15.440 is a really interesting idea that has been documented decently well. 3:55:16.000 --> 3:55:17.680 And in the bed, I'll teach you how to bypass 3:55:18.080 --> 3:55:21.800 UH newspaper headlines via different methods. But there's this actually 3:55:21.840 --> 3:55:25.760 good article in the Washington Post UM that is titled 3:55:26.040 --> 3:55:29.560 as a secretive hedge fund gets its newspapers journalists are 3:55:29.600 --> 3:55:31.800 fighting back. It kind of just details all of the 3:55:31.800 --> 3:55:35.000 different hedge funds, adventure capitalists firms instead of like just 3:55:35.560 --> 3:55:38.880 totally destroyed so many local papers throughout the entire country. 3:55:38.920 --> 3:55:41.720 It's actually kind of surprising once you learn how many 3:55:41.800 --> 3:55:45.560 of these papers are just getting destroyed by like just 3:55:45.720 --> 3:55:47.800 a few, like just like a few hedge funds are 3:55:47.840 --> 3:55:50.920 just doing all this damage. And it's it's like, yeah, 3:55:51.040 --> 3:55:53.920 I mean, this is why the current like journalism industry 3:55:53.960 --> 3:55:55.840 kind of sucks right now, is because of these types 3:55:55.880 --> 3:55:59.000 of practices. And I mean, like no one likes it, 3:55:59.040 --> 3:56:03.080 like no one's had be with it, Like everyone hates journalism. 3:56:03.160 --> 3:56:06.480 Journalists hate journalism, people who read journalism hates journalism, like 3:56:06.640 --> 3:56:11.120 activists hate journalism, like everyone's met at it um. And yeah, 3:56:11.200 --> 3:56:13.280 you can look at these these hedge funds and venture 3:56:13.320 --> 3:56:17.400 capitalists who are just like making it such an impossible industry. Uh. 3:56:17.440 --> 3:56:18.880 And then you know how you have like you have 3:56:18.920 --> 3:56:22.280 internet sites and culture sites like Vice, BuzzFeed and Cracked 3:56:22.600 --> 3:56:24.920 who had to frequently lay off large swaths of their 3:56:25.000 --> 3:56:28.400 editorial and writing teams, whether for like union reasons or 3:56:28.520 --> 3:56:31.000 because the company made failed attempt to chase some big 3:56:31.000 --> 3:56:35.640 tech companies or media giants you know, like proposed money, 3:56:35.680 --> 3:56:38.840 like in the Facebook switching over to video content kind 3:56:38.840 --> 3:56:41.640 of debacle that happened a few years ago, and like 3:56:42.560 --> 3:56:45.600 it's it's it's it's understandable why these writers, artists, the 3:56:45.680 --> 3:56:49.080 journalists are frustrated because yeah, the work is hard and 3:56:49.080 --> 3:56:51.480 the salaries are low. Well, the work should be hard. 3:56:51.600 --> 3:56:54.160 Some people kind of slack off, but you know, for 3:56:54.280 --> 3:56:57.800 the good journalism is more is challenging, and salaries typically 3:56:57.840 --> 3:57:01.920 aren't great. But even if audience monetary is support, where 3:57:01.960 --> 3:57:05.840 the solution to making creative and writing industry is more profitable, again, 3:57:06.600 --> 3:57:09.960 the kind of anti piracy folks would still be missing. 3:57:10.160 --> 3:57:14.440 A fundamental point is that kind of the the pro 3:57:14.520 --> 3:57:17.560 paywell people want you to get it through your head 3:57:17.600 --> 3:57:21.400 that journalism is just like other types of things you buy, 3:57:21.400 --> 3:57:25.080 whether it be food, you know, alcohol or entertainment um 3:57:25.160 --> 3:57:28.120 saying you know all these things. You know, Netflix isn't free. 3:57:28.480 --> 3:57:32.160 You know, Coca Cola isn't free. Right, This isn't journalism's fault. 3:57:32.160 --> 3:57:33.720 It's just how the world works. You have to buy 3:57:33.720 --> 3:57:35.280 it to use it. It's you know, it costs money 3:57:35.280 --> 3:57:36.880 to make, you have to buy it to use it. 3:57:36.880 --> 3:57:39.480 It's just it's it's it's like it's dumb to think otherwise. 3:57:39.760 --> 3:57:42.560 This is kind of their framework. But I beg to 3:57:42.560 --> 3:57:46.400 differ because enjoying art and worthwhile journalism I think should 3:57:46.400 --> 3:57:49.320 always have the option of being free, because when information 3:57:49.520 --> 3:57:51.760 is in the public interest, it should just always be 3:57:51.800 --> 3:57:54.720 available to everybody, whether or not you've already used up 3:57:54.800 --> 3:57:58.800 your three free articles. Like this is really important, especially 3:57:58.840 --> 3:58:01.520 now when there's you know, the whole the whole war 3:58:01.680 --> 3:58:05.360 thing happening and finding like pay all the articles about 3:58:05.360 --> 3:58:09.080 it is incredibly frustrating. Uh. And yeah, I mean there 3:58:09.120 --> 3:58:12.240 was even when the there was a right wing right 3:58:12.280 --> 3:58:15.600 ring extremist who opened fire and killed someone at a 3:58:15.720 --> 3:58:20.760 Portland's uh black Lives Matter protests a few weeks ago. Uh, 3:58:20.800 --> 3:58:23.480 that that is you know, still definitely impacting the city 3:58:23.800 --> 3:58:26.240 because it was it's it's still very recent. But a 3:58:26.240 --> 3:58:28.960 lot of the news coverage, first of all, it wasn't great. Uh. 3:58:29.040 --> 3:58:31.320 There was a whole bunch of news coverage was like 3:58:31.760 --> 3:58:36.400 was parroting the police lies and framing the framing the 3:58:36.440 --> 3:58:39.280 attacker is like an innocent homeowner who was defending himself. 3:58:39.440 --> 3:58:41.560 It was pretty gross. But even when even when the 3:58:41.560 --> 3:58:45.400 news articles started to like correct their previous agree with errors, um, 3:58:45.440 --> 3:58:47.840 almost all of it was paid walled like all like 3:58:47.920 --> 3:58:49.440 all like a whole bunch of stuff was pay welled 3:58:49.480 --> 3:58:52.840 about it, and that's incredibly frustrating because this is like, 3:58:52.920 --> 3:58:55.280 you know, when information is in the public interest, it 3:58:55.480 --> 3:58:58.440 should be free to access. Like that's just there's like 3:58:58.480 --> 3:59:02.400 a good moral thing like uh and even um And 3:59:02.440 --> 3:59:04.800 we've seen it. We've seen this before. Back in when 3:59:04.840 --> 3:59:08.160 the plague was a new thing. News organizations across the 3:59:08.160 --> 3:59:11.160 country started to lift pay walls to share coverage of 3:59:11.200 --> 3:59:16.240 the coronavirus pandemic um, which was great and you know, 3:59:16.400 --> 3:59:19.840 you can you can obviously see that once that changed over, 3:59:20.320 --> 3:59:23.520 a lot of people who we're making this happen behind 3:59:23.520 --> 3:59:25.720 the scenes probably hoped that it just convince people to 3:59:25.760 --> 3:59:28.520 become paying customers. But it was still like, that's still 3:59:28.560 --> 3:59:30.880 the way things should be is to have have the 3:59:30.920 --> 3:59:33.400 option of it being free and then having the option 3:59:33.440 --> 3:59:36.160 to donate. And this actually seems to be kind of 3:59:36.200 --> 3:59:41.800 the trend. Uh. The University of Texas at Austin surveyed 3:59:41.840 --> 3:59:45.600 about like a thousand Chicago residents about their local news consumption, 3:59:46.000 --> 3:59:48.080 and they found that respondents were more willing to give 3:59:48.080 --> 3:59:50.760 a ten dollar donation to support a free news site 3:59:51.120 --> 3:59:54.800 than pay ten dollars for a subscription to access premium 3:59:54.840 --> 3:59:59.960 news content. So yeah, like that's and that I definite 4:00:00.000 --> 4:00:02.760 you share that same like, uh, that same idea, I 4:00:02.760 --> 4:00:06.240 will weigh sooner donate money to a newspaper that I 4:00:06.320 --> 4:00:08.880 enjoy that is also free that I will pay ten 4:00:08.880 --> 4:00:14.240 dollars a month to read subscription service based news. It's 4:00:14.360 --> 4:00:18.640 a it's because it turns out when you like this. 4:00:18.640 --> 4:00:21.000 This applies to all types of media. But like when 4:00:21.040 --> 4:00:24.560 you enjoy media, you want to support its creators, whether 4:00:24.600 --> 4:00:27.680 that be anime, whether that be Sonic the fucking Headgehog, 4:00:28.000 --> 4:00:30.920 whether that be whether that be news or books. Right, 4:00:31.080 --> 4:00:32.600 if you like something, you're gonna buy it. Right. I 4:00:32.800 --> 4:00:34.720 got to introduced to Lemony stick its books to be 4:00:34.760 --> 4:00:37.200 the library, and now I bought lots because I wanted to. 4:00:37.600 --> 4:00:39.160 I wanted to buy the books from the person that 4:00:39.200 --> 4:00:43.840 I like. Yeah, and there are entire like industries. I 4:00:43.840 --> 4:00:45.840 mean that literally just work on this person list. This 4:00:45.880 --> 4:00:49.800 is why free to play games work. Yeah, exactly. There 4:00:49.840 --> 4:00:51.640 there's another conversation with for you to play games here 4:00:51.680 --> 4:00:55.160 about like addiction and gambling and manipulation about that. But 4:00:55.200 --> 4:00:58.840 like that that's you know, like setting that aside for 4:00:58.880 --> 4:01:01.360 a second. It's like, yeah, these things if if if 4:01:01.600 --> 4:01:05.000 people didn't want, if didn't spend money on things they like, 4:01:05.200 --> 4:01:08.520 free to pay games would not work like fundamentally as 4:01:08.520 --> 4:01:11.880 a model. Yeah, no, definitely definitely the idea of like, yeah, 4:01:11.920 --> 4:01:14.520 you get someone starts to enjoying the service, then they 4:01:14.560 --> 4:01:18.040 start paying for it, whether it be buying useless you know, 4:01:18.720 --> 4:01:22.040 skin for whatever third person shooter you have, or that 4:01:22.160 --> 4:01:24.960 be you know, buying books or copies of of the 4:01:25.000 --> 4:01:29.280 film or like anime, body pillows, whatever, like you do, 4:01:29.360 --> 4:01:31.360 you want to financially support the things that you enjoy. 4:01:31.440 --> 4:01:33.160 This is just a part of this is what humans do. 4:01:33.760 --> 4:01:36.400 So yeah, maybe more stuff should be have the option 4:01:36.400 --> 4:01:38.880 of being free. Uh, that definitely might take on it. 4:01:39.320 --> 4:01:41.040 Let's let's have a quick let's have a bit of 4:01:41.040 --> 4:01:44.400 an ad. Speaking of free content, this podcast is brought 4:01:44.400 --> 4:01:47.440 to you by these lovely sponsors, so you can listen 4:01:47.560 --> 4:01:50.360 for free while just skipping the ads. So good for you. 4:01:51.520 --> 4:01:54.160 We're back and now we're gonna talk about different ways 4:01:54.200 --> 4:01:59.520 of bypassing pay walls, specifically for online news, because paywalls 4:01:59.520 --> 4:02:02.960 frustrating and as someone who likes messing around with kind 4:02:02.960 --> 4:02:05.520 of computer e stuff, there's definitely a long list of 4:02:05.520 --> 4:02:07.560 ways to buy pass pay walls depending on what types 4:02:07.560 --> 4:02:11.480 of paywalls we are talking about. So types of pay 4:02:11.480 --> 4:02:14.080 walls there are. There are typically two general types of 4:02:14.080 --> 4:02:17.560 pay walls. There's hard pay walls and soft pay walls. Um. 4:02:17.760 --> 4:02:22.000 Hard pay walls require payment upfront, so usually some some 4:02:22.080 --> 4:02:26.280 form of subscription fee before accessing any content. Websites with 4:02:26.480 --> 4:02:28.320 hard pay walls, maybe we'll act you lead like a 4:02:28.320 --> 4:02:31.600 tiny snippet of the article, but you need access, you 4:02:31.640 --> 4:02:33.800 need you need to pay subscription to access the full 4:02:33.840 --> 4:02:38.520 the full content. Soft pay walls are are are typically 4:02:38.560 --> 4:02:43.240 allow you to read a number of articles before you 4:02:43.280 --> 4:02:46.000 need to buy buy a subscription. So it's ei there's 4:02:46.080 --> 4:02:48.400 you have a set number of articles that you can 4:02:48.440 --> 4:02:51.680 read for a fixed period or session. Um, there's you know, 4:02:51.720 --> 4:02:53.200 a lot of a lot of a lot of websites 4:02:53.240 --> 4:02:55.880 operate like this. Most of New York Times operates like this. 4:02:56.000 --> 4:02:57.640 A lot of a lot a lot of news sites 4:02:57.680 --> 4:02:59.840 have a soft pay wall model, which is great because 4:03:00.040 --> 4:03:04.080 typically a little bit easier to bypass first first method. 4:03:04.160 --> 4:03:06.400 This works some of the time. It depends on how 4:03:06.480 --> 4:03:09.400 the website is constructed, but you can try to stop 4:03:09.400 --> 4:03:13.480 the loading page before it fully loads. Uh, so generally 4:03:13.480 --> 4:03:17.640 a quick technique. It's effective on several different types of webpages. Uh. 4:03:17.960 --> 4:03:19.640 You have to stop your browser from fully loading the 4:03:19.680 --> 4:03:22.360 webpage as soon as your breaser displays the text element 4:03:22.480 --> 4:03:25.000 of the paywell to content. So you you know, enter 4:03:25.080 --> 4:03:27.960 a page U R L into the search bar, press enter, 4:03:28.360 --> 4:03:30.720 and then press the x icon or the escape key 4:03:30.920 --> 4:03:32.360 as soon as you see some of the text on 4:03:32.440 --> 4:03:36.680 screen before a paywall window pops up. UM. A major 4:03:36.720 --> 4:03:38.840 limitation of this is that stopping the website may not 4:03:38.920 --> 4:03:41.240 load all content elements, so it may only render like 4:03:41.280 --> 4:03:43.520 a portion of the text, or it may like miss 4:03:43.560 --> 4:03:47.360 out on like files like images, animations, or videos. Um. 4:03:47.400 --> 4:03:51.000 And it also depends on the order of which the 4:03:51.040 --> 4:03:54.440 website loads the page elements. So for example, if the 4:03:54.480 --> 4:03:58.080 website loads to pay well first, then this trick won't 4:03:58.280 --> 4:04:01.080 be successful. Also, you got be kind of pretty fast 4:04:01.120 --> 4:04:03.280 in order to make this one work. Typically this isn't 4:04:03.320 --> 4:04:05.640 the first way I do it, because there's generally generally 4:04:05.680 --> 4:04:08.680 easier ways. But if you can do this, then cool. 4:04:08.840 --> 4:04:10.720 It's definitely it's definitely a fast one if you can 4:04:10.800 --> 4:04:13.920 get it to succeed for soft paywall. So like I 4:04:14.240 --> 4:04:19.040 I will say The stopping the browser from loading is 4:04:19.080 --> 4:04:23.280 actually successful at some hard paywall sites because if they 4:04:23.360 --> 4:04:25.640 do like load a portion of the text to read 4:04:25.880 --> 4:04:28.560 as like a stippet, sometimes it will actually load the 4:04:28.640 --> 4:04:30.160 entire text, but then just block it off with a 4:04:30.200 --> 4:04:33.040 separate window. So sometimes with a hard paywall, you can 4:04:33.040 --> 4:04:36.280 actually stop it via this method, So that's always fun UM. 4:04:36.320 --> 4:04:40.480 But second method, generally more for soft paywalls, is for 4:04:40.720 --> 4:04:44.120 is to delete your pages cookies. So you know, websites 4:04:44.200 --> 4:04:48.200 store cookies to track your browser UM activities, including how 4:04:48.280 --> 4:04:51.960 much content you've accessed. So blog publishers, news newspaper sites 4:04:52.400 --> 4:04:54.680 can track the number of fage articles you've read using 4:04:54.680 --> 4:04:57.040 the cookies stored on your browser. If you hit the 4:04:57.080 --> 4:05:01.960 limit for for non subscribe ors, if like the limited 4:05:02.080 --> 4:05:05.360 articles allotted, then you can delete the website cookies to 4:05:05.520 --> 4:05:08.760 refresh the to refresh that counter and it will possibly 4:05:08.800 --> 4:05:11.480 reset the limit of articles UM. You can go to 4:05:11.520 --> 4:05:13.720 the privacy or security section of your web browsers, like 4:05:13.800 --> 4:05:15.720 the option that allows you to check the cookies and 4:05:15.760 --> 4:05:18.880 site for all data and then search for the website 4:05:18.880 --> 4:05:21.520 that you're looking for in the in the cookie management 4:05:21.560 --> 4:05:24.000 page and then click remove all. You can do this 4:05:24.040 --> 4:05:27.440 on like Firefox, Chrome, Microsoft Edge if you want to 4:05:27.480 --> 4:05:33.160 use that for some reason. Um safari. Yeah, but this 4:05:33.200 --> 4:05:36.200 trick may not work very well on hard pay walls 4:05:36.720 --> 4:05:39.800 because it that's that they don't really use cookies for 4:05:39.840 --> 4:05:42.560 the same purpose. And also you'll have to, you know, 4:05:42.800 --> 4:05:44.640 do if you're doing if you're doing this for soft 4:05:44.640 --> 4:05:46.320 pay walls, you have to do it every time you 4:05:46.320 --> 4:05:50.440 you reach the limit. Um. And if this won't work 4:05:50.600 --> 4:05:54.160 if the website is using other kind of more advanced 4:05:54.240 --> 4:05:57.600 tools to track your activity, like I p logs, right, 4:05:57.680 --> 4:06:00.000 so if it's tracking your AP data instead of your cookies, 4:06:00.360 --> 4:06:03.640 then this probably won't work. So this one's this one. 4:06:03.880 --> 4:06:05.800 I mean you you should clear cookies every once in 4:06:05.840 --> 4:06:09.080 a while anyway, just like generally a good practice, but 4:06:09.320 --> 4:06:11.040 to do this all the time, it's kind of a 4:06:11.080 --> 4:06:13.480 kind of a bit of work, especially because the next 4:06:13.560 --> 4:06:16.200 method is typically easier and does the same thing, which 4:06:16.240 --> 4:06:19.560 is just reading articles inside a private or incognito mode 4:06:19.680 --> 4:06:23.400 or in the tour browser. Um. So, as as as 4:06:23.480 --> 4:06:25.680 as explained earlier, not all paywalls are about the same. 4:06:25.920 --> 4:06:27.800 If you know, if a website uses a soft paywall, 4:06:28.160 --> 4:06:31.040 you should be able to read a subscription based content 4:06:31.120 --> 4:06:34.680 through incongnito or private browsing, because it'll check the it'll 4:06:34.720 --> 4:06:36.880 it'll check the website into thinking you're a brand new visitor, 4:06:37.840 --> 4:06:41.080 granting you access to the content before it had before 4:06:41.120 --> 4:06:43.920 it racks up enough of views to uh to throw 4:06:43.960 --> 4:06:46.480 up the paywall window. So this is this is a 4:06:46.520 --> 4:06:49.040 lot easier than just manually to leading the companies every 4:06:49.080 --> 4:06:54.440 single time, because yeah, most web browsers do not transmit 4:06:54.560 --> 4:06:58.800 pre existing cookies onto an incognito or private mode browser mode, 4:06:59.160 --> 4:07:01.440 so it doesn't much of those back over. And then 4:07:02.360 --> 4:07:05.800 although the website will deposit new cookies on your browser 4:07:05.960 --> 4:07:08.640 during private browsing sessions, they will be removed as soon 4:07:08.640 --> 4:07:11.800 as you close the window. Uh. One bummer is that 4:07:11.880 --> 4:07:15.000 some news pages are getting wise and actually are programming 4:07:15.040 --> 4:07:17.200 their websites to be able to be able to detect 4:07:17.240 --> 4:07:20.160 if they're opened in a private or browsing mode or 4:07:20.200 --> 4:07:22.680 even on tour um and they just like won't open. 4:07:22.720 --> 4:07:26.080 They'll they'll say, sorry, you have to. We we've detected 4:07:26.120 --> 4:07:27.920 that you're using this in private browsing mode to view 4:07:27.960 --> 4:07:31.160 this content. Boot up a regular browser, which which really 4:07:31.160 --> 4:07:32.960 sucks for the tour users because a lot of people 4:07:33.840 --> 4:07:37.000 are like, hey, yeah, I'm in China, I'm trying to 4:07:37.000 --> 4:07:40.200 get past the great firewall and fuck you eat ship. 4:07:40.280 --> 4:07:43.200 You should have somehow paid a subscription service to us 4:07:43.760 --> 4:07:47.760 to see information on this site that is literally illegal here, 4:07:48.120 --> 4:07:50.680 Like it's great, it's really bad for people who are 4:07:50.720 --> 4:07:54.600 like actually facing government censorship who need to use tour 4:07:54.720 --> 4:07:58.000 to view content. So yeah, that that is Uh, it's 4:07:58.000 --> 4:08:01.760 what we call a major bummer, A major sucks a 4:08:01.800 --> 4:08:06.680 major Oh no, capitalism did a whoopsie. Um Yeah, but yeah, 4:08:06.720 --> 4:08:08.440 this is definitely this is one of the modes I 4:08:08.480 --> 4:08:10.760 do most often. It's like I can typically get get 4:08:10.800 --> 4:08:12.680 a lot of sites to be able to view through 4:08:12.680 --> 4:08:16.320 incong unit or private or private browsing. But again it 4:08:16.360 --> 4:08:19.120 does depend on what the site is h is built 4:08:19.200 --> 4:08:23.080 to do. But bar far my favorite method. Oh yes, 4:08:23.480 --> 4:08:25.200 I'll mention. Another one that I don't really use very 4:08:25.200 --> 4:08:29.440 often is the paywall or removable extensions for for your browser, 4:08:29.480 --> 4:08:32.960 which is like third party browser extensions which try to 4:08:33.080 --> 4:08:37.320 automatically bypass paywalls. These are really hit and miss, um 4:08:37.360 --> 4:08:39.680 and it's they're also a really great way to get nice, 4:08:40.000 --> 4:08:43.880 fancy malware onto your computer. Um, so I would I 4:08:43.920 --> 4:08:46.680 typically steer clear of this, but there there is allegedly 4:08:47.040 --> 4:08:50.960 a browser extension called bypass paywalls for Chrome and Firefox 4:08:51.280 --> 4:08:54.520 that allegedly has been found to be effective, um that 4:08:54.560 --> 4:08:57.880 allows you to read the subscription based articles on hundreds 4:08:57.920 --> 4:09:01.160 of publications like New York Times, wire Wall Street Journal, 4:09:01.240 --> 4:09:04.880 Washington Post. Um it is, it is. It is free, 4:09:04.880 --> 4:09:06.600 but you have to manually load it onto your browser. 4:09:06.920 --> 4:09:09.160 And just typically amount a big fan of browser extensions 4:09:09.200 --> 4:09:11.160 in the first place, so I kind of steer clear 4:09:11.160 --> 4:09:14.160 of these, but some some some people, some people swear 4:09:14.200 --> 4:09:17.440 by them, so maybe maybe they can work. They're they're 4:09:17.480 --> 4:09:22.160 they're not only my thing, but my favorite method is 4:09:22.560 --> 4:09:27.040 archive websites, uh, specifically archived dot is. So there are 4:09:27.160 --> 4:09:29.920 internet archiving tools that preserve copies of web pages and 4:09:29.960 --> 4:09:33.280 social media posts for reference purposes, and you can use 4:09:33.320 --> 4:09:36.680 these tools to access pabled content and read subscription based 4:09:36.680 --> 4:09:40.840 news articles for free, including a lot of hard paywalled pages. 4:09:41.920 --> 4:09:44.160 Archive dot i S or archive dot is is my 4:09:44.160 --> 4:09:48.480 favorite one. Um. Also it's it functions under archive dot today. 4:09:49.120 --> 4:09:51.120 Uh just it just it depends on what surfers they're 4:09:51.160 --> 4:09:53.560 running at the moment. Of course, there's also the classic 4:09:53.640 --> 4:09:57.160 and pretty reliable archive dot org which has a nice 4:09:57.600 --> 4:10:00.560 calendar feature. But it's definitely good to check both of 4:10:00.560 --> 4:10:03.400 these because sometimes an article will be archived on archived 4:10:03.400 --> 4:10:06.120 dot is really easily and it won't be are available 4:10:06.120 --> 4:10:07.960 on archive dot org. Sometimes it will be on archive 4:10:08.000 --> 4:10:10.920 dot org and not archive dot is currently the one 4:10:10.960 --> 4:10:14.080 that's currently live. I think it's not pH It automatically 4:10:14.080 --> 4:10:16.000 switch is usually I could. I usually just type in 4:10:16.040 --> 4:10:19.520 our cave dot is um and it switches me over automatically. 4:10:20.320 --> 4:10:22.680 But yes, there is, there is, there is. There is 4:10:22.720 --> 4:10:26.160 a few of them. Yeah, yeah, you are right correct. 4:10:26.440 --> 4:10:29.760 It does automatically revert to archive dot phr at the moment, 4:10:30.440 --> 4:10:32.360 so yeah, But these are the ones I use the 4:10:32.400 --> 4:10:35.960 most because people who have access to hard paywlled content 4:10:36.520 --> 4:10:40.520 will often archives the hard paywlled stuff so it's available 4:10:40.520 --> 4:10:44.040 to people without the paywall. This this this can include 4:10:44.040 --> 4:10:47.320 the screenshot mode for archive dot is and the regular 4:10:47.400 --> 4:10:50.320 archival method for archive dot org. But both these are 4:10:50.320 --> 4:10:53.640 great um and they're also really good for looking at 4:10:53.800 --> 4:10:56.240 past versions of the articles, so you can look to 4:10:56.280 --> 4:10:59.280 see what how the articles have changed over time, and 4:10:59.360 --> 4:11:02.720 so are great research tools. And our chaive dot is 4:11:02.720 --> 4:11:04.920 is very easy to even upload stuff yourself, even if 4:11:04.960 --> 4:11:08.640 you don't have um the paywall, Like, even if you're 4:11:08.640 --> 4:11:11.360 blocked off from reading the full thing, you can try 4:11:11.400 --> 4:11:13.560 to submit it to our chave dot is and there's 4:11:13.560 --> 4:11:16.240 a good chance and actually grab an unpaid walled version 4:11:16.240 --> 4:11:18.440 of it because because of how because of how the 4:11:18.440 --> 4:11:21.880 site works. So let's go to urchive dot pH r 4:11:22.160 --> 4:11:24.800 or or urchived dot is, enter the web page u 4:11:24.920 --> 4:11:27.720 r L that you're wanting to access in the designated 4:11:27.960 --> 4:11:31.040 dialect box at the bottom. It's like save. It'll go 4:11:31.080 --> 4:11:34.200 through a little process, um, and then then you will 4:11:34.480 --> 4:11:36.240 then you'll be able to selec the screenshot mode or 4:11:36.240 --> 4:11:38.600 the webpage mode and be able to see what type 4:11:38.600 --> 4:11:41.880 of thing in archives? It's pretty it's pretty cool. Um. 4:11:42.040 --> 4:11:44.800 It's The last thing I'll mention is outline dot com 4:11:45.160 --> 4:11:48.560 and twelve foot Ladder. These are web based tools, but 4:11:48.680 --> 4:11:52.400 not specifically archival sites. They're generally used to just get 4:11:52.480 --> 4:11:55.320 to the text of an article it would via like 4:11:55.480 --> 4:12:00.240 web page nonsense and bypassing paywall stuff. Unfortunately, websites also 4:12:00.240 --> 4:12:03.600 gotten wise to this, so stuff like New York Times 4:12:03.640 --> 4:12:05.360 and Wall Street Journal have figured out a way to 4:12:05.360 --> 4:12:08.280 get to these sites blocked so you cannot use outline 4:12:08.280 --> 4:12:10.680 dot com or twelve foot Ladder on them, but they 4:12:10.760 --> 4:12:12.760 still work on stuff like the Washington Post. So it 4:12:12.800 --> 4:12:16.720 always depends, but I definitely generally will prefer the archive 4:12:16.840 --> 4:12:19.600 dot is and archive dot org method to viewing any 4:12:19.640 --> 4:12:24.200 kind of pay old content. Um. Yeah, and that's kind 4:12:24.200 --> 4:12:26.080 of my I mean, I'm not now, I'm not going 4:12:26.160 --> 4:12:28.640 to explain how to do like regular piracy on the 4:12:28.640 --> 4:12:32.600 podcast because I don't have enough time, but like it's easy. Yeah, 4:12:32.680 --> 4:12:34.560 there are there are lots of people who will tell you. 4:12:34.720 --> 4:12:38.080 I mean, like kiss Cartoon is like a very popular website, 4:12:38.280 --> 4:12:40.120 Like you don't even need to, like you don't even 4:12:40.160 --> 4:12:42.120 have to like properly tour and stuff anymore. There is 4:12:42.200 --> 4:12:45.520 like so much piraated media of help. Yeah, and it's 4:12:45.520 --> 4:12:47.160 like okay, so like you've gotta be a little bit 4:12:47.160 --> 4:12:48.920 careful when your parting stuff. Sounds like you can get 4:12:48.960 --> 4:12:53.560 copyright strike, but if you stream it, they don't copy 4:12:53.640 --> 4:12:56.640 and strike you for that. So yeah, yeah, I guess 4:12:57.160 --> 4:12:59.520 the other thing I will plug is a plex, which 4:12:59.600 --> 4:13:03.360 is a kind of an online movie hosting service like Netflix, 4:13:03.400 --> 4:13:05.880 except you upload all of the content to it, so 4:13:06.360 --> 4:13:09.480 let's say you buy Blu Rays, it comes it comes 4:13:09.520 --> 4:13:12.280 with the digital download code, So now you can upload 4:13:12.320 --> 4:13:16.480 the digital copy into PLEX and watch that wherever you want, 4:13:16.520 --> 4:13:18.520 as long as you're signed into to the PLEX account 4:13:18.520 --> 4:13:20.920 and you actually own the stuff on the service. So 4:13:20.960 --> 4:13:22.640 as long as the services online, you can use it 4:13:22.680 --> 4:13:25.760 because you actually own the stuff on it. UM. That 4:13:25.800 --> 4:13:28.280 includes if you have if you have pirated versions of 4:13:28.320 --> 4:13:31.120 movies downloaded, you can upload this versions onto Plex then 4:13:31.200 --> 4:13:33.600 then delete the actual hard copies of it on your 4:13:33.600 --> 4:13:35.600 hard drive and then just watch the ones in PLEX 4:13:35.640 --> 4:13:38.600 and you're totally fine. So PLEX is great for having 4:13:39.200 --> 4:13:41.560 like ease of access because right sometimes I don't want 4:13:41.560 --> 4:13:44.880 to sort through my Blu ray discs and make sure 4:13:44.920 --> 4:13:46.840 that I have a Blu ray player with me so 4:13:47.120 --> 4:13:49.400 to watch my stuff. So using PLEX is a great 4:13:49.440 --> 4:13:52.560 wet method to keep your stuff that you actually own 4:13:52.920 --> 4:13:55.960 accessible online to watch it as long as you sign 4:13:56.000 --> 4:13:58.680 into a web browser. Um. And the last thing I'll 4:13:58.680 --> 4:14:04.400 plug is library submission forms. So if you really want 4:14:04.600 --> 4:14:06.920 media and you don't wanna pay for it and you 4:14:06.920 --> 4:14:09.880 don't want to like pirate necessarily, you can get libraries 4:14:09.920 --> 4:14:12.680 to buy stuff. UM. I did this all the time 4:14:12.720 --> 4:14:15.160 when I was younger, I I found out that you 4:14:15.160 --> 4:14:19.320 can submit items for purchase via via via the library 4:14:19.360 --> 4:14:24.920 on the online forum, and I submitted so many comic books. Uh, 4:14:25.920 --> 4:14:27.920 most of the comic books, I would say, I'm not 4:14:28.280 --> 4:14:30.040 like a good majority of the comic books in the 4:14:30.040 --> 4:14:34.040 Molton County Library system are because of me. Every every Wednesday, 4:14:34.080 --> 4:14:36.200 when a new trade paperback would be released, I would 4:14:36.280 --> 4:14:39.280 upload it to the library submission form and they would 4:14:39.280 --> 4:14:41.280 buy it. Uh, and not just one coffee, they would 4:14:41.280 --> 4:14:45.680 buy like twelve copies. So there's so many Batman comics 4:14:45.960 --> 4:14:48.720 in the in the in the moultonom Coney system because 4:14:48.800 --> 4:14:52.120 I would studiously upload upload all that stuff so that 4:14:52.120 --> 4:14:53.560 I didn't need to pay for comics. I could just 4:14:53.680 --> 4:14:57.040 get them from the from the library. So definitely look 4:14:57.080 --> 4:14:59.840 into library submissions to kind of grow what your library 4:14:59.840 --> 4:15:02.800 had us in stock, and then also looking to see 4:15:02.880 --> 4:15:05.160 what other things your libraries doing, because I know more 4:15:05.200 --> 4:15:08.000 libraries are looking into building like maker spaces and like 4:15:08.080 --> 4:15:12.080 tool libraries to um have access to things that are 4:15:12.080 --> 4:15:15.120 not just like books. You know, power tools, and then 4:15:15.240 --> 4:15:17.240 you know how to access to even cool stuff like 4:15:17.480 --> 4:15:21.560 stuff like vacuum formers and like three, three printers, laser cutters. 4:15:21.600 --> 4:15:24.320 All these things are kind of growing. So look into 4:15:24.360 --> 4:15:26.600 what your library is doing, because oftentimes libraries have some 4:15:26.600 --> 4:15:29.920 pretty cool stuff. Um. So yeah, this is my little 4:15:30.240 --> 4:15:33.760 little bit on why I don't like paywalls, why I 4:15:33.760 --> 4:15:36.640 think content should be free because it actually helps creators 4:15:36.640 --> 4:15:39.080 in the long run. Any anyway, and how to get 4:15:39.120 --> 4:15:41.360 past news articles that don't want you to read them 4:15:41.360 --> 4:15:45.560 without paying too much money. Yep. And remember, folks, if 4:15:45.600 --> 4:15:48.840 your Pan invaded your country pirrating anime as reparations. If 4:15:48.840 --> 4:15:51.280 you're mad about this tweet, find me on Twitter and 4:15:51.400 --> 4:15:54.360 I write, okay, yeah, make sure your tweet and I right, 4:15:54.400 --> 4:15:57.520 okay if you have complaints about that take So yeah, 4:15:57.640 --> 4:15:59.920 that is that is my little my my little bit 4:16:00.040 --> 4:16:04.800 talking about piracy ar and uh and yeah, I mean 4:16:05.120 --> 4:16:07.280 morest we should, we should, we should? I think I 4:16:07.320 --> 4:16:09.320 think it's I've always had I've always hold this opinion 4:16:09.320 --> 4:16:10.880 that I think we can all learn a lot of 4:16:10.920 --> 4:16:14.200 lessons from the sonic the hedgehog. Um. And I think 4:16:14.240 --> 4:16:16.880 one of the greatest ones is that turns out when 4:16:16.920 --> 4:16:20.280 you make stuff available to use, uh for free and 4:16:20.320 --> 4:16:23.320 allow emulation, people like people like people like the stuff. 4:16:23.320 --> 4:16:26.280 More people enjoy it, and it will actually support official 4:16:26.360 --> 4:16:29.280 uses of it as well. So more stuff for free, 4:16:29.760 --> 4:16:34.600 more more library based economies, and having having gold rings, 4:16:34.680 --> 4:16:37.200 having an enormous number of gold rings makes you nearly invincible. 4:16:37.440 --> 4:16:39.200 That that is this is this is also true. I 4:16:39.200 --> 4:16:44.160 mean the multiple franchises exist with that exact premise. Um. Yeah, 4:16:44.360 --> 4:16:47.680 so it turns out when you have more, more libraries, 4:16:47.760 --> 4:16:57.080 more rings, people are happier. Yep, that's the episode. Hey, 4:16:57.160 --> 4:17:00.320 we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from 4:17:00.320 --> 4:17:02.880 now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could 4:17:02.920 --> 4:17:05.280 Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For 4:17:05.360 --> 4:17:08.080 more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website cool 4:17:08.160 --> 4:17:10.160 zone media dot com, or check us out on the 4:17:10.160 --> 4:17:12.880 I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 4:17:12.920 --> 4:17:15.840 to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, 4:17:15.920 --> 4:17:19.560 updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. 4:17:19.560 --> 4:17:20.400 Thanks for listening.