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Speaker 1: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Oh it could welcome here

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Speaker 1: the podcast that happens ship. All right, well st Andrew,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna, I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot to you to

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Speaker 1: to pull us out of this tailspin I've locked it into. Hello, Hello, listen,

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Speaker 1: seen everyone today. I wanted to go on a bit

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Speaker 1: of a post no meandering, I guess on um, some

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Speaker 1: of the ideas and concepts that just kind of fluting

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Speaker 1: on my head um surrounding sustainable city planning and city living.

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Speaker 1: I want to see a lot of these ideas and stuff,

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Speaker 1: UM kind of just crimp them from like all over

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Speaker 1: the place, and in some cases they are a bit

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Speaker 1: less i would say viable and others. But I do

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Speaker 1: find like the work of for example, Low tech magazine

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Speaker 1: Dot com and um and so on to be very

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Speaker 1: inspiring in terms of all capabilities, Um, what potential there

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Speaker 1: is an obsolete technologies? What though tech solutions exist for

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Speaker 1: issues and what we can do as people to just

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Speaker 1: kind of make living in urban sprawl or suburban hell

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Speaker 1: a little bit less hellish. Yeah, that is definitely a

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Speaker 1: topical of my heart as well as someone who lives

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Speaker 1: in a city. I would like cities to be less hellish, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it seems. And I would like suburbs and not exist

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Speaker 1: so eternal. More on the suburbs, we have to ally

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Speaker 1: with rural America and protracted suburbs. Yes, yes, yeah, my my,

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Speaker 1: my crank proposal has always been reintroducing Macedons and just

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Speaker 1: like just having Macedons just like walking through and destroying buildings,

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Speaker 1: because that's that's what the suburbs deserves. Masterdons is in

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Speaker 1: the actual animals. Yes, yes, I thought she meant like

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Speaker 1: the social media platform. No, no, I think we need

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Speaker 1: to clone leopards so that they breed as quickly as

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Speaker 1: rabbits and just let them loose. Wasn't doctor Defer Schmitz

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Speaker 1: raised by leopards? Sure? Why not? I would Robertino, who

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Speaker 1: doctor difference riches. No, let's just let's just let's such

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Speaker 1: as Okay, I I think I think we are. We

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Speaker 1: are roughly the same, in the same age bracket for

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Speaker 1: television we watched, so I'm movies to catch up on.

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Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with the Good Doctor period. The platypus pilled,

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Speaker 1: very very very platypilled, as they say, plati pilled. Let's continue, right, So, um,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of aspects of my evil plan

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Speaker 1: to make the entire tri state area more sustainable, but

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Speaker 1: I think I would want to start with something that

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Speaker 1: tends to consume a lot of the energy in cities,

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Speaker 1: and that is like heating and cooling. I mean, for me,

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Speaker 1: living in a tropical country, heating has never been a consideration. Um.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the coolest it gets isn't like the I

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Speaker 1: would say, like eighteen nineteen twenty degrees celsius area. Um so,

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Speaker 1: and to me that is like chili. That's like layering

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Speaker 1: up kind of thing, because I can't handle that kind

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Speaker 1: of cool um, which is kind of wild to me

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Speaker 1: that I have considered moving to Canada. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I'll people to handle it. It does it does get,

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Speaker 1: it does get much colder. I mean we when I

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Speaker 1: was in Canada, we would have not not uncommonly have

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Speaker 1: minus forty celsius weeks. So yeah, yeah, I've never I've

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Speaker 1: never experienced minus degrees before. I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's no, it is. Oh, it's fine, it's it's not

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Speaker 1: a big deal. You just put on an extra pair

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Speaker 1: of socks. You're good to go. Okay, So when when

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Speaker 1: it when it hits negative forty degrees fahrenheit, you've experienced

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Speaker 1: negative forty degrees. It's not like it's not like artic

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Speaker 1: temp like negative negative forty Negative forty fahrenheit is the

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Speaker 1: temperature of the surface of bars a sunny days. Negatives

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Speaker 1: is the same as negative forty celsius. Oh is it?

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Speaker 1: They actually converged at that point. Yeah, it's like you

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Speaker 1: just yeah, it's just your hain like it's not even

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Speaker 1: cold anymore. Like you just like your your face just hurts.

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Speaker 1: It's it's great. Many times I'm going to call out

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Speaker 1: my my my favorite meme again and have negative forty fahrenheit,

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Speaker 1: negative forty selfius celsius clapping hands in the middle. Yeah

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Speaker 1: classic anyway, Yes, yeah, I'm honestly, I can't even conceive

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Speaker 1: of that kind of sound pretty. Um, I am an

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Speaker 1: island boy, so that's so I operate it and as

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Speaker 1: an island boy. Um. How to say that? Like heat

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Speaker 1: is very very uncomfortable. Humidic humid heat is even more uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Dry heat is also extremely uncomfortable. When you have a

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Speaker 1: hot day combined with like sahara and dust in the

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Speaker 1: air and no clouds in the sky, it is truly,

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Speaker 1: truly miserable. I can't imagine, um, what life in a

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Speaker 1: city would be like if um, you know, these sort

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Speaker 1: of temperatures continue to climb as they are climbing, Um,

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Speaker 1: as you see you know, global average temperatures rising by

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Speaker 1: you know, a half degree or a degree or two

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Speaker 1: degrees celsi. Yes, that's just ridiculous, let alone three or

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Speaker 1: four degrees celsius increase, especially compounded with the far that

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Speaker 1: in a city. There's this thing called the urban heat

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Speaker 1: island effect. So cities are ten degrees so it's hotter

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Speaker 1: than the surrounding countryside. And the reasons for the other

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Speaker 1: numerous You know, you have like vehicles emitting heat constantly,

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Speaker 1: you have air conditioners pumping heat into the air. You

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Speaker 1: have concrete and covering every surface just like absorbing and

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Speaker 1: radiating the sun's rays. And you have these urban canyons

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Speaker 1: between tall buildings to prevent heat from escaping from and

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Speaker 1: to keep it at the sort of street level. It's miserable, right,

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Speaker 1: And the typical solutions, the individual solutions, the short term solutions,

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Speaker 1: they just make the situation worse because, I mean, when

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Speaker 1: you're feeling hot, and mean, I was just feeling hot

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Speaker 1: just now, and I turn on the E C right

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Speaker 1: when you're feeling hot, you know, you're sing the C,

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Speaker 1: or you put on a fan, but not to wash

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Speaker 1: a fan, but the A C continues and fuels this

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Speaker 1: vicious cycle of heating the outdoors to cool the indoors,

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Speaker 1: making experience spaces even more uncomfortable. So you end up

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Speaker 1: with air conditioning use accounting for like one five of

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Speaker 1: global energy electricity usage of building related globe electricity usage,

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Speaker 1: and you end up with the thing that's spposed to

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Speaker 1: be cooling us heating things even more because you know,

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Speaker 1: as developing countries, you know they have access to one

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Speaker 1: more air conditioning, especially and you know towlpping countries, and

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Speaker 1: to be in the hotter side of the world, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, the use of the air condition just continues

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Speaker 1: to sky rop it and um the International Energy Agency

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Speaker 1: actually estimated that it would take the amount of energy

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Speaker 1: needed to cool buildings will triple by twenty fifty, which

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Speaker 1: is equivalent to the current electricity demand in the US

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Speaker 1: and Germany combined. Sue, on top of all that, you

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Speaker 1: will have an issue of like heat and heat deaths. Right,

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Speaker 1: the deaths and injuries caused by heat, I mean, heat

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Speaker 1: stroke is becoming more and more of an issue in cities,

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Speaker 1: especially when you know temperatures reach above twenty five degrees celsius.

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Speaker 1: People you know, manual labels, people who work outside, people

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Speaker 1: who just have to move around a lot, you know,

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Speaker 1: experience the symptom the symptoms of heat stroke whenever there

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Speaker 1: is like the spike in temperature. Right, and then even

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Speaker 1: you know, if you don't experience like a heat stroke,

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Speaker 1: heat is exhausting. It is energy draining, is utterly sapping,

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Speaker 1: and it requires a lot out of your body to

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Speaker 1: keep you cool and prevent you from like eating. And surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: this overheating is you is not just like you know,

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Speaker 1: a tropical issue or like a hot country issue like

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Speaker 1: places like Moscow had like and asked meats a eleven

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Speaker 1: thou people die due to heat wave in twenty ten,

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Speaker 1: and so with all these heat waves and stuff, we

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Speaker 1: need to like figure out what to do with all

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Speaker 1: these giant concrete buildings. I mean, and for some people

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Speaker 1: like eco brutalism is you know, wow, so cool to

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Speaker 1: me personally, And this is just my subjective opinion. I

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Speaker 1: find it ugly and disgusting and I hated but you know,

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Speaker 1: to each stone right brutalism discourse, I mean, what what

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Speaker 1: do you all think of rutalism. I think Yugoslavia and

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Speaker 1: brutalism was cool. Every other kind of brutalism is just

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Speaker 1: like my opinions on brutalism boiled down to thinking the

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Speaker 1: game control is far. I had stayed in a Yugoslavian

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Speaker 1: brutalist architecture hotel, which was one of the weirdest nights

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Speaker 1: of my life because it was clearly made. It was

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Speaker 1: like one of these gigantic, like people's hotels that was

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Speaker 1: meant to pride everyone with vacations, and so there's like

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Speaker 1: twenty thousand rooms and we were like the only three

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Speaker 1: people there. So there was one person at the desk,

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Speaker 1: and it's just cavern of empty rooms such this. Everything

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Speaker 1: felt like a liminal space. It was. It was very odd.

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Speaker 1: It can be, it can be very very uncanny. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't like bad, it was like reasonably well constructed. It

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Speaker 1: was just deeply strange. Wants to spend the night. I

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Speaker 1: think that's what makes the game control so cool, is that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it plays with those uncanny feelings on brutalism while still

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Speaker 1: being like very cool. Like it's still that Jacob Kella

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Speaker 1: made a video vote right, yes he made a he

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Speaker 1: he didn't make a video like I watched that recently.

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Speaker 1: This is like the sort of house kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: right right, right right, Yeah, yeah, I wanted to go

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Speaker 1: that game because I mean that's what that's kind of

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Speaker 1: like my issue with brutalism. It feels like a boss

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Speaker 1: level in a video game, like you have to go

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Speaker 1: through each level, clear what's all the minions and they

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Speaker 1: get to the top and feed the boss. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of unsettling, yes, and then like eco brutalism is just

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Speaker 1: like oh what if trees tres Yeah, and it's like okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: but I mean like one of my many occupations and

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Speaker 1: I still maintain it seasonally. Um, I was a power washer,

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Speaker 1: and I hate moss, and so to see moss all

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Speaker 1: over buildings just really bothers me. Like I just want

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Speaker 1: to get you know, my spring gun and just clear

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Speaker 1: it all off. Um. And especially in like this climate,

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Speaker 1: moss is like a very significant issue. So that makes sense,

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Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, one of my pet peeves among many. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean the many different ways we could combat the

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Speaker 1: when heat island effects um that don't involve equo brutalism,

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Speaker 1: and they can also help to facility, you know, creating

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Speaker 1: more attractive spaces to live and to play. You know,

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Speaker 1: obviously the solution isn't just like build those every building

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Speaker 1: they does ever been built and make it more sustainable,

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Speaker 1: you know, with vernacular materials and stuff. So of course

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Speaker 1: new buildings should be built with those principles in mind. Um,

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Speaker 1: But you know, it's not practical to us even sustainable

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Speaker 1: to destroy all the buildings we've already built and rebuild them.

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Speaker 1: You know, the best thing we can do is try

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Speaker 1: to mitigate and adapt with what are we already have, um,

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Speaker 1: greenery and I know it's just roasting eco brutalism just

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Speaker 1: track slack trees and everything is an important part in that, right,

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Speaker 1: because you know it, well, it causes evappo transpiration, which

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Speaker 1: is like where what's evaporates from plants, leaves and cools

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Speaker 1: the temperature. Um, you know it. We also improve people,

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Speaker 1: it's like psychological well being. Um. And they just the

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Speaker 1: nice look at um, the nice look at the keep

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Speaker 1: things cool. In fact, they can help cause temperatures to

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Speaker 1: drop by like two to three degrees celsius in the

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Speaker 1: like the surrounding area. I think people certainly misinterpreted, but

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Speaker 1: like this, this is one of the big things you

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Speaker 1: can see with with racism in the U S. Where

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Speaker 1: like you can literally like you can literally track racial

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Speaker 1: divides in a lot of American cities by the by

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Speaker 1: the temperature because like people places where not why people

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Speaker 1: live just don't have trees. And you know this this

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Speaker 1: has like a just this sort of like cascading series

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Speaker 1: of environmental and social effects which are a disaster and

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Speaker 1: environmental racism. Yeah, yes, released stark. Honestly, if you look

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Speaker 1: at the heat maps or some of these cities and

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Speaker 1: you could literally see, you know, where poor black folks live.

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Speaker 1: You know, you can see the places with less trees,

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Speaker 1: the places next to factories with like toxic here and

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Speaker 1: often waste and that kind of thing. It's just you know,

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Speaker 1: right there, and it sucks. Which is why, of course,

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Speaker 1: part of any sort of efforts to improve cities and

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Speaker 1: make things more sustainable would involve you know, social justice

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Speaker 1: and would involve responding to an addressing the compounding effects

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Speaker 1: of like environmental racism over the past several decades. So

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Speaker 1: and part of the issue again sign things back to

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Speaker 1: environmental racism is that a lot of the climate change

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Speaker 1: policies that you know, ostensibly amends to fever, like high

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Speaker 1: density urban and smart growth you know, like sustainable blocks

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Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. They are not conceived or

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Speaker 1: implemented in a way that involves the people being affected

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Speaker 1: by them. You know. In fact, a lot of these

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Speaker 1: like sort of green um projects raise the cost of food, energy, water, transport,

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Speaker 1: housing for people in the area. You know, they create

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Speaker 1: these sorts of like gentrified neighborhoods essentially whether the original

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Speaker 1: inhabitants can no longer afford to live there. So if

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Speaker 1: we wants to develop like a sustainable city or resiliencity,

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Speaker 1: sustainable oversagain neighborhood, it requires social justice, It requires you know,

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Speaker 1: at quity and you know, like the involvement of all

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Speaker 1: affected through you know, consensus or democracy. UM just really

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Speaker 1: shape the future that you know they will be experiencing

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Speaker 1: because they're the ones being affected by it. There are

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Speaker 1: a lot of other ways as well to heap proof

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Speaker 1: as it were a city, UM reflective roofs and roads.

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Speaker 1: UM can also helped reduce the absorptive powers of UM

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Speaker 1: solar radiation by concrete and asphalt. So in fact, in

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Speaker 1: some cities like l A and in New York, there's

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Speaker 1: this wide reflective coating that UM has been implemented in

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Speaker 1: some five thousand meters square of roof space that saves

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Speaker 1: an estimated two thouso tons of CEO two per year

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Speaker 1: from cooling emissions. I mean, all it takes really is

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Speaker 1: just like that sort of white reflective coat, and it

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Speaker 1: saves dividends in the long run. UM NASA had done

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Speaker 1: some research on this and it demonstrated the results demonstrated

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Speaker 1: that a white roof could be twenty three degrees celsius

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Speaker 1: or forty two degrees fahrenheit cooler than a typical black roof.

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Speaker 1: UM on a hot New York somebody UM and the

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Speaker 1: places where like yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of like glossed over that is crazy, that is absolutely

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Speaker 1: absolutely mild. And then in cities where like we're like

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Speaker 1: ten of the land area is like asphalt, you can

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Speaker 1: imagine how that sort of UM that's sort of a

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Speaker 1: lect of Zeiland can impact, um, the cooling or the

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Speaker 1: heating of the area. Water. Of course, it's another like

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Speaker 1: important aspect of cooling cities. UM. In Andalus, which was

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Speaker 1: like the Muslim kingdom in Gebrian Peninsula in the fourteenth

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Speaker 1: century UM, they used to have these sort of like

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Speaker 1: courtyards with pools and fountains that would stimulate water evaporation

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Speaker 1: and cool the air, and so like cities today, you know,

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Speaker 1: take some hints from that. You know, you have ponds

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Speaker 1: and pools and fountains and missing systems and stuff that

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Speaker 1: can sort of chill things out. I mean we see

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Speaker 1: that being UM implemented in China, where you have like,

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Speaker 1: for example, UM water mister does at like bus stops,

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Speaker 1: which can chill the air and you know, cool passengers

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Speaker 1: as they wait. UM. And they found actually that adding

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Speaker 1: water features and like cool coatings reduces the cooling requirements

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Speaker 1: of an area by twenty nine and also lowers the

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Speaker 1: overall averaging at temperature by one point five degrees celsius.

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Speaker 1: So it's like honestly wild, like these little things can

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Speaker 1: have such a major impact on temperature. Speaking of like

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Speaker 1: old methods of cooling, UM, ancient methods of cooling, there's

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Speaker 1: this Middle Eastern shading device called the mastra bil um

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Speaker 1: or I think it's mastra ba, and it's basically an

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Speaker 1: architectural element that is usually built by um wooden lattice

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Speaker 1: work and sometimes stay in the glas as it's used

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Speaker 1: to like catch and cool the wind through like having

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Speaker 1: these basins of water in them is I mean, so

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Speaker 1: I could try to describe it. It's like a window

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Speaker 1: jutting out of a building UM with some decorated by

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Speaker 1: lattice work, with jars and basins of water placed within

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Speaker 1: them to let the wind pasture. And as the wind

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Speaker 1: is passing through, it's caused an evaporative cooling then it

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Speaker 1: chills out the interior and to these mastra bears um.

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Speaker 1: They've been used since the Middle Ages by you know,

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Speaker 1: the Coptic churches of Egypt and the Art Deco movement

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Speaker 1: in Iraq, and and by you know, the architecture um

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Speaker 1: in bad Dad, as well. And so these sort of

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Speaker 1: construction methods, while they tend to be developed for you know,

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Speaker 1: individual homes or individual buildings, um, they can in fact

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Speaker 1: be implemented um with even the aesthetics of Islamic geometry

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Speaker 1: to help to cool a building and produce its overall.

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Speaker 1: See what twe missions. So I've been talking about heating

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Speaker 1: and cooling and stuff for a while now, and speaking

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Speaker 1: of I should probably to see it's off my rather.

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Speaker 1: I think I heard either either it was you, Andrew,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it was Robert talking about the ceramic kind

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Speaker 1: of cooling idea. Yeah, I mean that's the thing, and

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Speaker 1: like the part of the Americans Southwest, like New Mexico,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of like swamp coolers that are basically working, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: swamp cool swamp coolers. It only works in certain climates, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you wouldn't really don't ye because if it's if

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Speaker 1: it's too it's too humid, it's not gonna work. You're

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Speaker 1: just gonna from more humid. Yeah. I think there's kind

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Speaker 1: of a broader thing there architecturally, which is that like

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Speaker 1: we have a lot of sort of like like we've

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Speaker 1: we've we've lost a lot of in the way we

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Speaker 1: do architecture. We've lost a lot of this sort of

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Speaker 1: like building we we've lost a lot of sort of

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Speaker 1: building techniques adapted to specific locations. Yeah yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: like that's something that has to be reversed, like immediately,

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Speaker 1: because like our our current model of building houses out

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Speaker 1: of oil is going to get us all killed. Really,

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Speaker 1: what's what's the problem there? What's wrong? What's that? I mean?

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Speaker 1: And toff with that, right, not just vernacular architecture, but

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Speaker 1: vernacular clothing. I mean it's I mean as again, so

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Speaker 1: when living in a tropical country, I see it for myself,

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Speaker 1: like working people going to work where in like full

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Speaker 1: long sleeve dress shoots and long long dress pants and

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Speaker 1: you know, like formal shoes and it's honestly up you

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Speaker 1: know sometimes like they have the whole tie like you know,

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Speaker 1: pull up and everything. It's not it's entirely based on

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Speaker 1: like European standards of professionalism, and um, it needs to

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Speaker 1: be abolish. Abolish dress coods, alright, abolished, like this whole

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Speaker 1: idea that you know, we have to dress this particular way, um,

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Speaker 1: despite you know, the temperature, because it's more professional or whatever.

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Speaker 1: For professionalism honestly. Yeah, we we have we have podcasting

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Speaker 1: or in the vanguard of this, but we need help

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Speaker 1: to destroy professionalism once and for all. Yeah yeah, ye

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Speaker 1: show up to where can you be then suit? Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, like vernacular buildings as well, you know, obvi,

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Speaker 1: stay you had in in Africa, in different parts of Africa,

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Speaker 1: you would have different structures that were particularly tigulets. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're in a in a tropical reinforest environment, you

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Speaker 1: would have a bill in a steeler to you know,

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Speaker 1: keeping mosquitoes out and maintaining a certain temperature within and

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Speaker 1: maintaining comfort as well within or you know, in cooler

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Speaker 1: regions you would have um certain construction that would keep

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Speaker 1: heats within the building and prevent um excessive discomfort you know. Um.

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Speaker 1: And they were also of course, like when it comes

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Speaker 1: to like cooler areas, you will also expected to sort

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Speaker 1: of keep yourself warm as well as you know, keep

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Speaker 1: your building warm. In fact, it was more so keeping

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Speaker 1: yourself personally warm, so keeping yourself lay up even when

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Speaker 1: you're indoors. And of course that's kind of lost today

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Speaker 1: people are expected to just you know, turne on the

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Speaker 1: heater and vibe for the months of winter. But it

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Speaker 1: isn't sustainable. A lot of things we enjoy today unsustainable.

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Speaker 1: Keeps going back to that. But yeah, speaking of things

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Speaker 1: that we enjoy that are not at all sustainable, how

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Speaker 1: about cause get rid of cause? Please get rid of cause.

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Speaker 1: I mean, cause are very convenient in terms of like,

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Speaker 1: if you want to get somewhere very specific, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: if there's a place you want to go, I'm the

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Speaker 1: one you need to know. I'm a car. I'm a car.

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Speaker 1: I'm a car. You know kind of thing. But my

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Speaker 1: little musical interview there, thank you for appreciating it. But ultimately,

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Speaker 1: like they honestly aren't sustainable. They honestly on something that

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Speaker 1: we can maintain in the nail even well potentially in

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Speaker 1: the neighborance, which the far future. I mean, people are

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Speaker 1: already new the problems with gascars, already knew who my

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00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: gascars are bad. But you know, things just just things

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Speaker 1: are just sort of pivoted towards electric cars. And who

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Speaker 1: electric cars, Let's get a bunch of electric cars. Who

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Speaker 1: But electric cars aren't better. I mean the materials they require,

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Speaker 1: the energy they require, it's quite frankly not sustainable in

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Speaker 1: the long run, and it just lengthens the amount of

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Speaker 1: time that we spend dependence on cause for short and

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Speaker 1: long distance travel. And especially how in the States we've

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Speaker 1: built our cities around the idea of a car, which

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Speaker 1: has expanded the urban terrain unnecessarily. And if you look

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Speaker 1: at like all the space taken up, like highways and overpasses,

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Speaker 1: and how much of just like urban space is taken

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Speaker 1: up but just been built around the idea of the car,

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Speaker 1: it really kind of makes the whole idea of a

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Speaker 1: city so much less useful. It's it's really it's really frustrating.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's also working at the cars or

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00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: so unbelievably dangerous. Yeah, yeah, we're very much used to

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Speaker 1: like having these like death machines driving around at all times,

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00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: and that that makes for like a very um cool

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Speaker 1: like series of metal band song names or whatever. But

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Speaker 1: the death statistics on funny when it comes to cause. No,

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Speaker 1: and like the average transport transportation time having cars has

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Speaker 1: not actually decreased, Like the amount of time it takes

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Speaker 1: to get from place to place based on like where

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00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: you live in your city has not actually increased because

395
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: now everything has just spread further apart, so a hundred

396
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: years ago would take you know, like a fifteen minute

397
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Speaker 1: trek to get to like, you know, the market or something.

398
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Speaker 1: It can take off times longer, especially if you're driving

399
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: in like rush hour traffic to get just just just

400
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Speaker 1: like a couple of miles, where even in some cases

401
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: a decent jaw could get you there faster. Um, just

402
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: because of how we've just designed the cities all around

403
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: these rolling metal death cages. Um. Yeah, it's not it's

404
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: it's not great. It's one of the reasons I don't

405
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: currently have a car. Yeah, And that's kind of that's

406
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: something that's shocking to a lot of people when I

407
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: tell them that, really I have no intention if have

408
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: a buying a car of ever owning a car. It's

409
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Speaker 1: not something that I want. And I mean I live

410
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Speaker 1: relatively close to like some of the major transport um

411
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Speaker 1: arteries of the country, and you know, not has like

412
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Speaker 1: this unique ish transportation system public transportation system. So we

413
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: have these privately owned maxi taxis that um they're like

414
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Speaker 1: vans with seats in the back, um and you know,

415
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: you could you just kind of jump in um depending

416
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: on where they're going, which rooted taken um and they're

417
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: they're convenient enough for me and for my purposes, so

418
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Speaker 1: I just you know, I go areyed to go um

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Speaker 1: with them. But they're also gas guzzling in efficient machines.

420
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Speaker 1: I mean they're better than you know, all those people

421
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Speaker 1: driving cause I mean as an island, you know, like

422
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Speaker 1: I don't know why we're so obsessed with having more

423
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 1: and more cars on the road, um, But at the

424
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 1: end of the day, they still aren't the best in

425
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: terms of sustainability and in terms of viable, reliable, sustainable transport. UM.

426
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: We also have like personal taxis as well, but they

427
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: have the same problems as regular taxis. And what's frustrating

428
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: is that we used to have a train line UM

429
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: that went along the entire east West corridor of the country.

430
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: That's where most of the people internata along the East

431
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: West corridor, UM. But that was destroyed in the nineties sixties,

432
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: I think, to make way for highways and a priority

433
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: bus route. So instead of having a nice, convenient, cute

434
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: little train that we could seek to go from place

435
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: to place, you have to rely on buses and maxis

436
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: and taxis. And cause yeah, that is quite that's not cool.

437
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: That is quite not good, quite quite grim because we

438
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 1: need to reconfigure. Seriously, I would love for them to

439
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: bring back trains so able to take a train don't

440
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: have to rely on I mean, government bureaucracy makes all

441
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: things unreliable, but I think a train would have been

442
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: slightly more reliable than a bus. Very much. On the

443
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: pro train, on the on the pro train train, I've

444
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: had a fewer, few fewer, fewer moments more happy then, right,

445
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: the Portland's Max line and straightcar in a no face costume.

446
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: It's very it's it's very fun. I think. Also, like

447
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: another thing about about cars, right, this is just it's

448
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: just just on a very pure political level, like cars

449
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 1: is a thing that allowed suburbs to exist, and the

450
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: existence of suburbs has produced just generation upon generation of

451
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: like frothing reactionaries who are the source of like enormous

452
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 1: percentages of the world's problems. And so if you get

453
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: rid of those places, you produce less of them. Yeah,

454
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 1: which is just a political benefit for anyone who wants

455
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: to not die exactly exactly. I mean, we don't think

456
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: about it because there's already so many things to think about.

457
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: But if you actually sat down on pondered the death

458
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: tool of like cause. Um, we really and really brought

459
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: to the forefront and really made it less of a necessity.

460
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: I think one more people would be open to the

461
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 1: idea of rejecting cause to keeping them as at most

462
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 1: benign a novelty. Um that maybe one or two exists

463
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: in the entire community, UM for use if needs be, UM,

464
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: But otherwise I I don't see how each and every

465
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: person in the world owning their own car is at

466
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: all the best way to go. Also, cause are kind

467
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:46,479
Speaker 1: of ugly to me. Yeah, we really didn't design them

468
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: to look cool, which just it's I mean, there's some

469
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: cars that look kind of cool, like some of the

470
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 1: more classic ones. But and that's part of the issue, right,

471
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 1: they're getting uglier to me, And they're also getting larger,

472
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: you know, people like Yeah, they're raising their drills more

473
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: and more so, like you basically a pedestrian killing machine.

474
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 1: We've effectively undone most of the benefits of making cars

475
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: safer for passengers by making them much more dangerous for pedestrians,

476
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: which is entirely a marketing choice. Like, if you like

477
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 1: the fucking trucks they were making twenty five years ago,

478
00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: are just as useful, um and in a lot of

479
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: cases more useful for like practical farm work for hauling

480
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: and whatnot than the trucks they're making today. They haven't

481
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,919
Speaker 1: meaningfully gotten better, They've just gotten a lot larger for

482
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: no real reason other than it makes people feel like

483
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: big men. Well, and then you get these fun you

484
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: get these fun you can you can look at the

485
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: marketing people like explicitly talking about how like yeah, like

486
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: they like basically explicitly playing into the fantasy of running

487
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: over protesters and it's it's great. It's yeah, So get

488
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: rid of cars and you won't have to deal with that.

489
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: But Chris, how is that sustainable or viable? Good question?

490
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 1: Introducing super blocks? Oh yes, superblocks are basically um neighborhood

491
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 1: of nine blocks. So I don't think they have to

492
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: be I think the philosophy and ideas behind super blocks

493
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 1: could be implemented suit different um cities of different histories

494
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: and different layouts, especially localized especially such like localized street

495
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 1: cars within each city block, within within each superblock like

496
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 1: system exactly. So, just to clarify, the idea of super

497
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: blocks are basically um, you know, neighborhoods of nine blocks,

498
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: where traffic is restricted to the roads on the outside

499
00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: of the block, which means that the interior of these

500
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: super blocks entirely walkable. That, combined with the idea of

501
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:10,280
Speaker 1: a superblock being um mixed use, means that people are

502
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: mostly able to access their basic necessities within their city block.

503
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: Are you able to like spend more time, have more

504
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: open space, to spend more time to meet with people,

505
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: to talk, to do do activities, to you know, have

506
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: some relief from noise pollution and air pollution from vehicles,

507
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: and to really like connect people with the space they're

508
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 1: living in and make the space they're living in more livable.

509
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't live smack dab in the middle

510
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: of like urban urban town, but I could imagine if

511
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: people living in like New York or whatever, you know,

512
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: you can't exactly step out of your apartment and play

513
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: in the road on a typical day, if you have

514
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: kids or whatever, you know, they can't exactly just go

515
00:36:56,200 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: run outside. Um you will die exactly, so exactly exactly.

516
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 1: And I mean people complaining about like, okays, lease, do

517
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 1: some go outside as much? But I mean, look at outside,

518
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: you know, look at what look at what has been created?

519
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: Um and reflect on that. I mean, part of the

520
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: assuer is um the way social media algorithms are designed

521
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: to suck people into like cycles of addiction. But that's

522
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: a whole another topic. Right, Um, I think a lot

523
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: of people, more people will be willing to be able

524
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: to pull themselves out to that sort of harmful algorithmic. Hell,

525
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: if there was an outside pull themselves out too, you know.

526
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: But honestly, cities, especially a notorious for like not having

527
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 1: places you can be where you don't have to spend money,

528
00:37:54,280 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: and that sucks. So I think, um, super blocks being

529
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: places where you know, libraries and um, please some people

530
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: can eat, maker spaces, community kitchens. It does seem to

531
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: be missing or ignoring what we're gonna lose with super blocks,

532
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,440
Speaker 1: which is how how am I gonna roll down the

533
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,359
Speaker 1: streets smoking indow sipping on gin and juice if I'm

534
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: not allowed to drive within my block? Wow? I think

535
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:29,879
Speaker 1: we can. I think I think you could just get

536
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: a bike? Who's cruising all the bicycle? Have you tried

537
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: smoking indow, sipping on gin and juice while riding a bicycle.

538
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: It's it's impossible. Get a couple hold anything as possible

539
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: as a Snoop Dogg eraser. No. But the the idea

540
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: of having like community gardens, community like kitchens, like a

541
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 1: maker spaces, libraries, all these within like this super block framework,

542
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 1: you know, like green spaces. It does make actual urbans

543
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: living the same attractive and not like you're just living

544
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: in nested concrete boxes. Yeah. I mean people like living

545
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 1: cities because that's where everything's happening, right, But yeah, you

546
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: you want people to take part in the things that

547
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: are happening, but the places aren't livable. Yeah, you don't

548
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: have the table that will continue to complain about until

549
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: the end of time, which the table in Chicago Trying

550
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 1: Town that threatens to arrest you for sitting at it.

551
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, like the hostility of this goes back

552
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: to like racism because of course everyone does everything does.

553
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: But you know a lot of these loitering laws and

554
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: stuff which she designed to target black people and to

555
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: target you know, poor people, um like vagrancy laws and

556
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: that sort of thing, just hostile people's existence, and that

557
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 1: gets into like hostile architecture and that sort of thing.

558
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: But I think with these super blocks, you know, we

559
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: open up our spaces to make them welcoming to human

560
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:04,399
Speaker 1: ex systems, spaces that are not built around cars, built

561
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: around commutes, built around week And this obviously is a

562
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: transformation that requires more than just you know, vote for

563
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 1: so and so and make this a degree and kind

564
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: of thing. You need. You need something more substantial than that.

565
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: You know, within these super blocks as well, you're you're

566
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: able to take stock of how your block or whatever,

567
00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 1: you have a better mental sense of um community and

568
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 1: able to take about a sense of even things like

569
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: how your block can communally sustain themselves and you know,

570
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 1: reduce waste and all these different things. This in conjunction

571
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: with struggle against capitalism in the state. But you know

572
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,440
Speaker 1: that is implied. This is you know, m this is

573
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 1: the show. This is it could happen here. I don't

574
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: know if you expect and like electoralism, but that's not

575
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: really what we do around here. I mean the benefits

576
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,439
Speaker 1: to these sort of like super blocks, you know, these

577
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes zon so people can walk within fifteen minutes

578
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: to get the essentials. The benefits are innumerable. You know,

579
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: that's the equality, less noise, healthy lifestyle, mental health boost

580
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: But the issue is without a combination of you know,

581
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: these projects and these activities with like anti capitalism and

582
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: anti statism. It's it's tends to lend itself towards gentrification.

583
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: And we've seen that in Spain, which is where UM

584
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: some of these super blocks have been implemented. UM. They've

585
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,479
Speaker 1: created like these locations that are obviously more desirable because

586
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: who doesn't want to live in a super block where

587
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: you know, you actually sense of community because we're all

588
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: desperate for that UM and at least an increase in

589
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: property demand, higher prices, higher rent It basically creates these

590
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: pockets of unaffordable neighborhoods, displacing local residents. So you have

591
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 1: to get into the fight against gentrification in order to

592
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: make this, you know, idea viable. The last thing that

593
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:25,560
Speaker 1: I want to get into really is as conventioned UM

594
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:29,760
Speaker 1: community gardens. I want to talk about urban farming because

595
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: that is crucial. I mean, part of what UM makes

596
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 1: cities cities in all the cases is the fact that

597
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: they imports all their food. Right. They have the urban

598
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: rural divide that you know delineates the two areas UM,

599
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: but considering the transportation costs, the energy costs, all those

600
00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: things that compound UM two to stay in a city

601
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: a city's food needs. We have to look to ways

602
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: that we can sustain cities and sustain neighborhoods within cities, um,

603
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: within themselves. Before I continue, I just want to point

604
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: out that the future of urban farming is not in

605
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: vertical farms. UM. They look very cool, you know, like

606
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: those tall kind of like pillars of like letters or whatever,

607
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: growing out sort of things, but the land that they

608
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: save is usually canceled out by the land they need

609
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: to produce the energy to power them, like, they're very

610
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: energy intensive UM spaces. So until that issue is resolved,

611
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it will be considering you

612
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: know how the energy requirements are just sort of built

613
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: into the vertical the concentration of energy requirements built sort

614
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: of into the foot of a farming design. UM, we

615
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: have to look to more practical methods. Landownership tends to

616
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 1: be a major hurdle UM when it comes to organizing

617
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: community gardens and maintaining community gardens UM. I mean, like

618
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: folks like Black Futures Farm, Oakland Avenue Urban Farm, and

619
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: the Victory Garden Initiative. They've been working to like provide

620
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: fresh produce to those in need, especially in urban food deserts.

621
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 1: But in a lot of these projects, they go in

622
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 1: good for some years and then the city suddenly spins around.

623
00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: It's like, we need this land for development, so they

624
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: just snatch it up, and you know, those years of

625
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 1: efforts just basically put on the dream um Community land

626
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: trusts have been put forward as a potential um solution

627
00:44:56,520 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: to that issue. But like a lot of these things,

628
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a good band aid, I would say,

629
00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily marking the end of capitalism. Another

630
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: issue that there is with the whole urban farming thing

631
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: is that the culture that develops around them while they

632
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: provide education and community and connection for people within them,

633
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: and that is extremely valuable. I think some organizers fall

634
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: into this habit of treating, of creating. It's sort of

635
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: like shared delusion around community gardens, you know, claiming to

636
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: be sort of feeding the people couldn't could And what

637
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: already brought this to my attention was Inhabits Territories newsletter.

638
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:54,960
Speaker 1: We had an article on it last year, I think,

639
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: on you know, urban community gardens, and it was written

640
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 1: by Gibriel I've seen, the co founder of at Planta,

641
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: which I find to be a very very creative name

642
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 1: basically asked the question are we really feeding ourselves? I mean,

643
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: these local food initiatives they do produce food that people eat,

644
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: but it can be a bit harmful to be overly

645
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: optimistic about our food autonomy at this stage, especially considering

646
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 1: how reliant we still are on big agriculture. You know, like, yes,

647
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,240
Speaker 1: we are producing you know, organic nutritionally this dense crops

648
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: and stuff, and that's great, that's helping people, but you know,

649
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 1: oftentimes it usually just means that, you know, the people

650
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: might be getting participants. I'm be getting like a salad

651
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: or you know, a couple. To me too, it's not

652
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 1: necessarily they're cutting down their grocery bill in a sustainable,

653
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: long term way, because I mean, if you've tried God,

654
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: then you know that, like when you're work here with

655
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: a limited space, you know, you grow your food set

656
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: it to me too, is it means it was a

657
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: cool but they don't last forever, you know, and you

658
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: have to wait until the next harvest to get more.

659
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: To me too, its or whatever the case may be.

660
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 1: Same for like letters or whatever. It's kinda rough, you know,

661
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't it helps for like a meal or maybe two,

662
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,680
Speaker 1: depending on like a living situation, but it doesn't meaningfully

663
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: cut into our reliance and groceries and you know, food imports. Yeah,

664
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:40,959
Speaker 1: it definitely takes a bit to get to that point,

665
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: and you have to do it with a combination of

666
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 1: like food preservation and like canning, um, and like you know,

667
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: like jarring and a whole bunch of other stuff to

668
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: actually make that a worthwhile endeavor as opposed to just

669
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: making like great, I spent three months making these tomatoes.

670
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:57,839
Speaker 1: Now they're ready for one meal and then they're all God,

671
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,759
Speaker 1: it would be like one salt. Yeah. Yeah, you do

672
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 1: have to really kind of figure out how to grow

673
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: enough to keep enough ready to be harvested for jarring

674
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: and canning for future use um, and make sure like

675
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: you're you know, harvesting them when they are ready so

676
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: that you can you know, you don't lose stuff, and

677
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 1: that you have like you know, an ongoing, ongoing process

678
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: of like preserving the fit that you do grow for

679
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 1: later um as well. So you can definitely take a

680
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: lot a lot more like mental effort and planning than

681
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,280
Speaker 1: just you know, planting it and then you know, using

682
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: it and cooking it when it's when it's all ready. Yeah.

683
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of energy and self is put

684
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: into growing things like greens and roots and fruiting vegetables.

685
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: And they're healthy, you know, they have the vita wins

686
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: and micro nutrients. But you know, people still need meat, dairy, eggs,

687
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 1: you know protein, yeah, heavy, high calorie dense stuff, you know,

688
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: like potitoos and other starches like a really holy buloofu

689
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: we eats and that kind of thing, and that just

690
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,879
Speaker 1: isn't being grown right now. You know, wheat and rice

691
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: and soy and nuts and corn and sugar. These staples

692
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: and stuff don't tend to be produced by these community

693
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 1: gardens and by these garden plots. Not many many, not

694
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:26,919
Speaker 1: many legume patches at your local community garden. Yeah yeah, yeah,

695
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Like I'm in the process of grin um

696
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: some pigeon peas right now, and they are taking a

697
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: very long while. And what I realize is that, um,

698
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I just plan to them, so I'm being

699
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: a bit impatient. But what I realized is that when

700
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: they do growth, and I've seen you know, some much

701
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:54,479
Speaker 1: your pigeon peach trees and stuff, I know how big

702
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: they tend to grow by time. Harvest rules around you know,

703
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 1: you get all those different pods and you you know,

704
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 1: you put in the world keep put. You pick all

705
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: the pods and you pry open the pods, and you know,

706
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,959
Speaker 1: you put in some more alliteration into the sentence. And

707
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, you get those peas out. Once those peas

708
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: out to the pod and you put them in a pot.

709
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: They're not potent enough to who would you over for

710
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: more than one meal? You know, like you pick like

711
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: a trees worth of peas in a pod, and you

712
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: know that's like sometimes like half of a meal. And really, honestly,

713
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,959
Speaker 1: respect to the people who are producing all our food

714
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,920
Speaker 1: right now, because I can't imagine having to be shelling

715
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: peas all the time. It's kind of ridiculous. I mean

716
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: it can be fun, but I can't imagine doing it

717
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,680
Speaker 1: all day. I mean, workers work, right, it's gonna yeah,

718
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: work as hell, we know this, but yeah, so I

719
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: mean community gardens they're good. You know, they have you know, education,

720
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: the build community. They provide outdoor activity and stuff. But

721
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think what comunity gardens, urban gardens and

722
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: stuff need to do is find ways to um and

723
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: this this isn't a disparate The work has been done,

724
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: you know, like massive support. I'm doing that myself kind

725
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 1: of thing. But we've got to, like, as the article argues,

726
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: we can't get caught up in the fluffing up of

727
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: the reality for marketing purposes. You know, we need to

728
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: look for ways that can actually um feed ourselves. That

729
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: means getting into caloric foods that means um like like

730
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: dried beans, potatoes, fruit trees, that kind of thing, grains, nuts,

731
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:53,319
Speaker 1: all that jazz. And also connecting with farms outside of

732
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: the city, you know, local farms outside of the immediate

733
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: urban landscape. Seeing what cooperatives can be developed that can

734
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: work aid each other mutually to build more potent capacity

735
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: for food. What's on me? So, I mean, get in

736
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: touch with the soil, you know, get this sign your face,

737
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: but also think about what more we can do to

738
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: sort of take this to the next level. And yeah,

739
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 1: that is um that is what I believe could in

740
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: fact happen here. This has happened here. Good. Yeah, it's

741
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: nice to have a positive one of these. Yeah, we

742
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,880
Speaker 1: should do that more often. If all, if only we

743
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: had the power power. Well, come back tomorrow when we'll

744
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 1: be talking about another bad thing. And then abandoning you

745
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 1: to deal with your thoughts about it. Wow, we we try,

746
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: we try, we do try. This is us trying well,

747
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:19,359
Speaker 1: this is us having st Andrew try. You're welcome, Thank you,

748
00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:22,479
Speaker 1: thank you very much. This is a topic I wanted

749
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 1: to discuss for a long time in terms of because

750
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: we get a lot of people talking about it like yeah,

751
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: how you know and whatever like post collapse fantasy that

752
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: you can imagine where we're able to kind of reconfigure society.

753
00:53:36,719 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: How would you plan urban living? And you're like, well, yeah,

754
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:41,879
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of actually really cool ideas for

755
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: like keeping people close together can be a very ecological

756
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: idea if you do it certain ways. It's just a

757
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: lot of the ways you've defaulted to over the past.

758
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 1: Like really three years has made it not that with

759
00:53:56,920 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 1: the invention of the car really really screwing us over. Um.

760
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you so much for talking about urban

761
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: living and super super blocks and all this kind of stuff.

762
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: Where can where can people find more of your work

763
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 1: in writing on the interwebs. You can find me on

764
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: YouTube at seeing Andrewism, and you can find me on Twitter,

765
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 1: which hopefully when you hear this, I am still not

766
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: on at under School seeing true fantastic. Um, yeah you

767
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: uh st Andrew just put together a really great episode

768
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: about anti work stuff and the way that debacles has

769
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: has happened and what we can learn from it and

770
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. Um and while you should still

771
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: actually care about anti work um and yeah, so we're

772
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 1: definitely recommend the anti work video for recent recent recent stuff.

773
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:01,000
Speaker 1: Let's see. Um, if you want a d your brain

774
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 1: into the addiction driven social media algorithm, you can follow

775
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: us on Twitter and Instagram. It happened here pot and

776
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: cools on media and uh yeah, let's uh go think

777
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: about go think about microspaces and community gardens. That seems

778
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 1: like a good a good way to dedicate your thoughts.

779
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:23,000
Speaker 1: Time and roll down the street smoking indow sipping that

780
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 1: gin and juice while you still can on a bike

781
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:31,920
Speaker 1: on a personally used doing my moral judgements upon you

782
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 1: before before the fascist anarchists take away your fees. Yeah. Look,

783
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: if if if we can democratize military grade weapon rate

784
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 1: the way the Ukrainians had, we can we can we

785
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,719
Speaker 1: can form neighborhoods that cannot be forced to live in

786
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 1: the traffic the auto industrial complex really reduce frifless air

787
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: travel what fantasy otherwise will end up in a mad

788
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 1: box wield and I mean wants that right, well you

789
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:30,240
Speaker 1: know aspects of it. Yeah, alright, see what everybody podcast?

790
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: Thank you? That is it is, It's true, It's true.

791
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: Actually it could happen here. Posting to podcast is more

792
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: or less the truth we have. We have Drake Robert

793
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: out of bed at before they're cracking dat at a

794
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: legend forty two am, um, and we're going to talk

795
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 1: about actually something very fund I'm I'm I've been I've

796
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 1: been wanting to talk about this for a long time

797
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,360
Speaker 1: because this is one I'm actually one of my favorite things.

798
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, So I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a

799
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: bit of a bit of a little story regarding one

800
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 1: of my act all time favorite events and topics. So

801
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 1: back in like ten, there was this a cheesy little

802
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: online university science show made by the Rochester Institute of

803
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: Technology called Can You Imagine Um. The The idea was

804
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 1: to highlight some of the cool and weird things at

805
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: the University UM in part to promote the Imagine r

806
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 1: i T Festival, which was like the school's annual like

807
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: innovation and Creativity Festival thing that they put on. So yeah,

808
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 1: today I want to talk specifically about episode three of

809
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: the web series because the contents of which overlap with

810
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: some of my like artistic interests UM and like just

811
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: my love of illusions and paradox and I will kind

812
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: of tie you into some topics we all we always

813
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 1: discussed on the show. So yeah, episode three, one of

814
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: probably probably the most interesting episode UM. Episode RNK, opens

815
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: with the hosts Kevin and Steph as they like stand

816
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 1: awkwardly in a gloriously dated you like university film set

817
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's it's only twenties, it's only twenty thirteen,

818
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,120
Speaker 1: but it was like obviously like made in the nineties,

819
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: like like like like the set's like it's it's all.

820
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:25,040
Speaker 1: It's it's all very dated. What specifically are you? Oh,

821
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 1: like they're they're like they're just like weird, like like

822
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: weird like like dated science stuff on the walls, all

823
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: the host of wearing like dorky orange T shirts like

824
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: like over to over top of their regular clothes they have. Yeah, yeah,

825
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's all. It's all that kind it's all

826
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. So like dorky orange T shirts

827
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: with the letters r i T for Roger Cusister Institute

828
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:51,560
Speaker 1: of Technology. Um, of course, because everything in this online

829
00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: video series is perfect. Kevin is wearing his shirt over

830
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: top of like a button down. It's it's, it's, it's great. Um.

831
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 1: The first fifty seconds of the video are taken up

832
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: with like plugging the upcoming r A T Imagine Festival

833
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 1: with a with a co host Steph beautifully stumbling over

834
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,919
Speaker 1: her lines when she says the event's catchphrase, it's where

835
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: the left brain and the right brain collide. And it's great.

836
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,960
Speaker 1: It's it's, it's, it's it's it's perfect. So after all

837
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: the plugs and the vamping, the hosts get down to

838
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 1: the fun engineering feat and they'll be showing us today,

839
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: which is a neat little architectural experiment a part of

840
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,240
Speaker 1: the r I T campus called the A Sharing and Stairwell, um,

841
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: of course, named after the impossible staircases depicted in Dutch

842
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: artist m c Escher's artwork. So the video cuts two

843
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: from the little like sound stage they're filming in to

844
00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: this boring, white, seemingly typical stairwell, our host Kevin ascending

845
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 1: a fight of the gray concrete stairs. Um explains that

846
00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 1: what located in Building seven of the campus. The stairwell

847
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: was designed by Filipino architect Raphael Nelson Abegondo and was

848
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: one of the first structure is put up when our

849
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,400
Speaker 1: I T moved their campus from downtown Rochester to the

850
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: more suburban Henrietta. UM when when he's taking when he's

851
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: reaching the top of the stairs, he turns the quarter

852
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 1: and then suddenly seems to appear at the bottom of

853
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: the lower flight of stairs leading up to the landing

854
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 1: that he just left from, all while continuing to talk

855
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: about the architect behind this like kind of weird impossible feat. Um. So,

856
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: as Kevin walks back up to camera, he says that

857
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: the stairwell was built in the and it's been wowing

858
01:00:27,440 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: ur I too students ever since. Um. It's it is

859
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:33,360
Speaker 1: very cool. It's like it's like you're like, okay, like

860
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: you get you get the little like like you get

861
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: the little architectural trick that they're doing. Um, but it's

862
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: it is it is still pretty fun to see. Before

863
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,440
Speaker 1: episode three of Can You Imagine aired you could, you

864
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 1: can already find a few articles on the school's UH

865
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: website about the issuing stairwell, along with some like forum

866
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:57,840
Speaker 1: posts debating how the architecture in the stairwell works to

867
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: like achieve the effect. Um all so floating around on

868
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: YouTube was like a random segment of what looked like

869
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: a like a PBS style late nineties documentary about the

870
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 1: physics and architecture of the school and specifically the starewell

871
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: that interviewed some like professors UM and some like architects

872
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: and like of the symphysicist kind of discussing what like

873
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 1: how to like bring paradox into the physical world. Yeah,

874
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: but but but but around the time that Can't You

875
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 1: Imagine episode aired, the now like infamous r RT stairwell

876
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: was mostly unknown, so like, even despite it being very interesting,

877
01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 1: no one really knew about it until this episode of

878
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 1: this little web series aired. Um. The little web episode

879
01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: dedicates around half its time to interviewing students, uh and

880
01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:44,439
Speaker 1: righteously random people at the university about if they even

881
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,840
Speaker 1: know about the starewell's existence, um, and if they do,

882
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 1: what like experiences they have with like me messing around

883
01:01:51,400 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: with like the looping architecture, because yeah, you can, you can,

884
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 1: you know, you can play a lot of games with

885
01:01:56,000 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: this type of with this type of design. Uh So.

886
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 1: The rest of the short video like tries demonstrate the

887
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: disorienting ascent down and descent back up via the camera

888
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 1: in various ways, like you know, like human chains or

889
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 1: holding hands around the weird like movies loop types staircase,

890
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: and like passing objects back and forth in a circle

891
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: while inside and around the enclosed stairwell. Um, there's one

892
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: where Kevin walks around with a cup to show that

893
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 1: the stairs aren't like clearly like heavily slanted, like the

894
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 1: water stays pretty pretty level as he walks all the

895
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: way through, and we like we follow with him the

896
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:31,960
Speaker 1: entire time. Um So, yeah, Like the overall like nerdy

897
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 1: and low fi style of the University video match with

898
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: like the insane feet of Architectural Illusion is a really

899
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:40,720
Speaker 1: fun mixed like it's like it's like it's it's it

900
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: is very like surreal, but not totally on purpose, because

901
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: it's just all of these like regular college students showing

902
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 1: this like really cool architecture by this really good architect

903
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, yeah, they're just so chill about it.

904
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 1: Uh it is, it is, it is pretty fun. It's

905
01:02:58,400 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: pretty fun. Um. After the third episode of the Imagine

906
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 1: Our i T video was posted. Finally, the mind boggling

907
01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 1: looping staircase of building seven in of of Our T

908
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: started to gain a lot of confused appreciation UM and

909
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 1: the dor Key University Science Show went vital. People started

910
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:20,880
Speaker 1: traveling from out of state even other countries to see

911
01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 1: the Asherian stairwell themselves and and film videos on social

912
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 1: media as as they walked through it. This this one

913
01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: video of like people traveling to a different country and

914
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 1: they're like harassing like the school staff to try to

915
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:34,480
Speaker 1: like tell them where it is, and they're like, oh

916
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:36,920
Speaker 1: my god, you're still doing this because it was like

917
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: because like this film was this video is like like

918
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: years old, but it's it still happens. People still travel

919
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 1: there to to specifically see it. UM. There is like

920
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 1: tense online discussion and debate on how the Filipino architect

921
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: Raphael Avugando was able to achieve the effect and what

922
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 1: kind of other bizarre architectural experiments he may have worked on,

923
01:03:55,520 --> 01:03:57,600
Speaker 1: because you can find his Facebook page and you can

924
01:03:57,600 --> 01:03:59,959
Speaker 1: find some stuff about him, but he has not really

925
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 1: because like this this steroile is built in the late sixties,

926
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 1: but you haven't you. So he even though he has

927
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: an online presence, he's like he's like he's not like active,

928
01:04:07,400 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: So it's unclear like what else he's actually been doing. Um,

929
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:13,920
Speaker 1: but I would I would, I would love to learn

930
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: more about this architect and what else he's done, because this,

931
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: it is it is really rare to have these very small,

932
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 1: condensed but like high effort type like type builds and

933
01:04:25,520 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: like the the existence of the whole thing. Posted some

934
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: really interesting questions around how extremely clever paradoxical design can

935
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 1: push the boundary of how we make assumptions about spatial physics, um,

936
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: and how we visually and physically demonstrate things that we

937
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: usually can only depict in two dimensions, right, Like you

938
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 1: can you can easily depict the the issuing starwell in

939
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 1: two dimensions, but when you're scaling that up to three dimensions,

940
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 1: it's obviously more work like like that that is that

941
01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:52,440
Speaker 1: is part of the paradox um Plus, you know, it

942
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 1: also demonstrates the importance of art and how ideas once

943
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,919
Speaker 1: thought impossible or merely optical illusions can actually with enough data,

944
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:02,000
Speaker 1: can an effort break into our real reality. Uh. If

945
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 1: a brilliant architect can manage to build this physically and

946
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:07,600
Speaker 1: like logically impossible structure. What other types of things can

947
01:05:07,640 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: we actually do as possible? The video now has like

948
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: over a million views on its original upload UM and

949
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 1: videos about the R I T. Stairwell have ranked up

950
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 1: as many as like twenty five million views. Yeah it's

951
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Yeah, you know what else demonstrates the looping

952
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: nature of time. Having to listen to all these ads

953
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 1: that we do. Ye, we we are, we are back.

954
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 1: I've I've rounded the corner and we are back where

955
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 1: we came from. Um because of the fun paradox of architecture. UM.

956
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:48,160
Speaker 1: The one, the one other thing I should mentioned before

957
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 1: we continue on this episode is that the entire thing

958
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:54,240
Speaker 1: is fake. It's false. No way, not this time we

959
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: created it. Not this time, No, not this time. It's

960
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 1: totally made up because of it's it's a staircase that

961
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: breaks the basic rules of movement in physics. Kevin walks

962
01:06:05,440 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 1: up the stairs and teleports to the lower stairwell. Belief them,

963
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: that's not that's not that's that's not an architectural allusion.

964
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 1: It's called good video editing, an adope after effects. It's

965
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:20,080
Speaker 1: not like, no, you're you're really gonna believe a video

966
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: on the Internet and some well placed, falsified Internet posts

967
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 1: over the very basic rules that governed our universe. But like,

968
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: oh boy, did it fool millions of people? Uh? And

969
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 1: if I played my cards right, I hope most of

970
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 1: our listeners until the last few seconds. Um yeah, And

971
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:41,920
Speaker 1: uh so the whole the whole thing was a was

972
01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:47,280
Speaker 1: a student like film and art project around around building

973
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: a modern myth. Um the because it's sure, it's sure

974
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 1: is interesting how good storytelling can overrule obvious logical processes.

975
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,920
Speaker 1: The tale of the a Sharan Stairwell is one of

976
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,880
Speaker 1: favorite case studies and how disincribation spreads and it is

977
01:07:02,920 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 1: believed while all in defiance of the basic rules of reality,

978
01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 1: because it's not a matter of what facts are true,

979
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: it's about what facts are compelling. And the idea of

980
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 1: a logically impossible staircase being built by a brilliant Filipino

981
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:19,760
Speaker 1: architect is more interesting than it being someone's weird and

982
01:07:19,800 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: disinformation art project. Um there. So yeah, Like I want

983
01:07:25,240 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 1: to say, like how what what were you guys thinking

984
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: as I was explaining the Issurian stairwell, Like where did

985
01:07:31,160 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 1: you see this? Going Okay, So I had in the

986
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 1: back of my head, okay, we should we should mention this.

987
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: Garrison has been hyping up this episode for like I

988
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 1: don't even a pretty amount of time. Nothing. Yeah, and

989
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:52,520
Speaker 1: there's a staircase and I'm like what it's like my

990
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 1: my brain my brain started going because he said and

991
01:07:55,880 --> 01:08:00,680
Speaker 1: I was like, my like my encounters just see brain

992
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 1: flicked on and I was like, wait a second, all time,

993
01:08:04,240 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 1: is this like some kind of like weird like we've

994
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: redesigned the college campuses so they stop people stopped taking

995
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 1: the dean hostage, a thing that used to happen constantly

996
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 1: and with all my favorite party about this would happen

997
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:20,640
Speaker 1: constantly and you'd get New York Times articles calling it

998
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: non violent. Great. Yeah, so yeah it was that was

999
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: I was. Yeah, I spent more mental energy that I

1000
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: probably should have tried to figure out how it worked out,

1001
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: Like I don't know, maybe they just made it like

1002
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: if they just made it Acus Razor, it's obviously yeah,

1003
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 1: I mean I was. I was seen the like I

1004
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: was in the like, okay, so they built a staircase,

1005
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 1: they built another the viewers cannot see my fingers. It

1006
01:08:46,400 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: was like a staircase. It doesn't tell. It was like,

1007
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,000
Speaker 1: it was like, but you can't find videos of people

1008
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: traveling to the school to see if it's real, and

1009
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: they try it and they're so disappointed. They're like, oh, yeah,

1010
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 1: it's it's no, it's just stairs. It doesn't it doesn't. Yeah,

1011
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: it's is importing in a lot of ways because it's

1012
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:04,640
Speaker 1: it's not even like a thing where like there's like

1013
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 1: another back staircase that you walk down. Then again, it's

1014
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 1: just it's just nothing. It's just stairs. I was hoping

1015
01:09:10,680 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 1: there was like actual clever is No, it's just it's

1016
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 1: not really, it's it's just. It was that meme where

1017
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: all the math doesn't add up in the person what

1018
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: is happening? I was like, all right, Garrison, you got

1019
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:31,439
Speaker 1: us here. You made Robert get up before noon. What

1020
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:35,639
Speaker 1: is happening? Well, the reason, the real reason I got

1021
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:38,919
Speaker 1: up before I got Robert up before noon is because actually,

1022
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 1: UM have scheduled an interview with the creator of the

1023
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:47,320
Speaker 1: Assarian stairwell, the actual one be like the online art

1024
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 1: project and building a modern myth idea UM, which we

1025
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 1: are now going to segue into. So yeah, what what

1026
01:09:55,880 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 1: follows is us talking with the creator of the Usherian

1027
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:05,880
Speaker 1: Stairwell Project. Hello, we are we are back from our

1028
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:10,400
Speaker 1: probably very very brief break. Um and with me along

1029
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: with Robert and Chris and Sophie is Uh Michael, the

1030
01:10:15,360 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: creator of the Sharian Stairwell Project and the Building the

1031
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 1: Modern Myths project. Hello greetings, Thank you so much for

1032
01:10:27,360 --> 01:10:30,519
Speaker 1: joining us to talk about one of my one of

1033
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: my favorite things actually is which is here a little

1034
01:10:33,800 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 1: to us to project? Um yeah, I've I've I've been

1035
01:10:37,479 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: a fan of this for a long time and found

1036
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: it to be really compelling and interesting. Um and I

1037
01:10:43,240 --> 01:10:46,520
Speaker 1: so I just walked through Robert and Chris and Sophie

1038
01:10:47,520 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 1: what what it what it was, but from the perspective

1039
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,360
Speaker 1: of it being true for like for the good fifteen minutes,

1040
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:56,880
Speaker 1: I was I was episode was going was going through

1041
01:10:57,240 --> 01:11:00,479
Speaker 1: talking about it as if it were completely real, but

1042
01:11:00,680 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 1: curious to hear how you did that it was. It

1043
01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 1: was slightly baffling because again we were told nothing, and

1044
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:11,120
Speaker 1: then what we got is Garrison is talking about a

1045
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 1: YouTube video about an architecture thing, and I was like,

1046
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:21,479
Speaker 1: what here? Yeah, and then and then then talking about

1047
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,600
Speaker 1: how oh yeah, and I guess one more thing is

1048
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 1: that it's actually fake, um, and it's part of this whole,

1049
01:11:26,479 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 1: this whole thing. So yeah, I would I would love

1050
01:11:29,080 --> 01:11:32,479
Speaker 1: to talk to you about both like how how you

1051
01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 1: like logistically like made the project, but also like the

1052
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:39,760
Speaker 1: underlying you're undering thoughts that like inspired you to do

1053
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 1: it in the first place, and then like retrospected now

1054
01:11:42,240 --> 01:11:44,559
Speaker 1: almost like ten years later, like how do you view

1055
01:11:44,600 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 1: the project as like happening you know, right before like

1056
01:11:47,120 --> 01:11:52,920
Speaker 1: the peak of online disinformation? Um? Right. So but first

1057
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:54,920
Speaker 1: of all, I I just think we should probably start

1058
01:11:54,920 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: start at the beginning, like what what was your inspirations

1059
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 1: for this type of like online like very like it

1060
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 1: seems it seems it seems built to go viral in

1061
01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Yes, exactly. So this was around

1062
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 1: twenty eleven, I guess was when I first got the idea.

1063
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 1: It was for my master's thesis, my m f A

1064
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:20,960
Speaker 1: for film at Rochester r I t and UM. The

1065
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 1: idea actually began from this like deep anxiety about how

1066
01:12:25,800 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: to discern fact from fiction? UM. At the time, like

1067
01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 1: I came into film school like really into like realism

1068
01:12:36,120 --> 01:12:41,160
Speaker 1: in films like Romanian New Wave mckel hanaka dar Dan Brothers,

1069
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 1: like these are filmmakers who are like they're sort of

1070
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:47,680
Speaker 1: like the modern day version of Italian nero neo realism,

1071
01:12:47,960 --> 01:12:51,400
Speaker 1: and they're trying to like depict like these um reality

1072
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 1: as it is. I wanted to like learn how to

1073
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:57,519
Speaker 1: make those types of films um, so over like with

1074
01:12:57,560 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 1: each year, that's what I tried to get better. And

1075
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:05,760
Speaker 1: the more I tried to do that, UM well, like

1076
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 1: a number of things were happening around that time. Right

1077
01:13:08,960 --> 01:13:12,880
Speaker 1: in class, they showed us that these mockumentaries called No Lies,

1078
01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: which was made in nineteen seventy three by this guy

1079
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:19,599
Speaker 1: called Mitchell Black actually won a student oscar at the time,

1080
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 1: and uh Delusions and Modern Primitivism two thousand one by

1081
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:28,080
Speaker 1: this guy named Daniel Loughlin, UM and these Like I

1082
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 1: was like floored because I thought they were real, like

1083
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:38,800
Speaker 1: real documentaries and um and it bothered me, like our

1084
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: teacher still this afterwards that these were actually scripted works

1085
01:13:41,800 --> 01:13:45,160
Speaker 1: of fiction with like really really good actors, and it

1086
01:13:45,560 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 1: like I went into kind of like existential crisis mode afterwards,

1087
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 1: like how do I even discern what's true from what's

1088
01:13:52,960 --> 01:13:55,439
Speaker 1: not if I got fooled by these things? Especially, like

1089
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,120
Speaker 1: that's like my concentration. That's what I've been studying for years,

1090
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 1: and even I was not even able to tell that

1091
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:05,680
Speaker 1: they were fake. Right, There was that going on, And

1092
01:14:05,720 --> 01:14:08,600
Speaker 1: then there was like smartphones were becoming a thing, Like

1093
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:12,360
Speaker 1: I just looked it up. Smartphones didn't start out out

1094
01:14:12,400 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: selling flip phones still, so around this time, like it

1095
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 1: was becoming a thing where everyone would have the Internet

1096
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:21,800
Speaker 1: in their pockets. So I guess there was that anxiety

1097
01:14:21,840 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 1: going on trying to think about, um, um, how we're

1098
01:14:26,479 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 1: starting to function and how we're how I remember when

1099
01:14:31,400 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 1: I proposed my thesis did the thesis committee, I um,

1100
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:41,639
Speaker 1: one of the things that I was telling them was, um,

1101
01:14:41,680 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 1: I have this worry about how reliant we are on

1102
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: the Internet to determine what's true and what's not. And

1103
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:51,519
Speaker 1: this is like like my professors found my concerns like

1104
01:14:51,600 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: really abstract and theoretical, Like why do you even care?

1105
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,320
Speaker 1: Because this? Right? Like why did you about fact? Then ficture?

1106
01:14:59,320 --> 01:15:02,760
Speaker 1: It wasn't like fake news. That wasn't even a yeah,

1107
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: it wasn't. It didn't become part of the everyday lexicon,

1108
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 1: like you said, until twenty six when Trump started throwing

1109
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 1: that term around, and suddenly we hear about it every day.

1110
01:15:13,280 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: Um so there was that going on. Trayvon Martin was

1111
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,640
Speaker 1: a thing and for the first time, like nationally, you

1112
01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 1: could see like disinformation like on you know, just like

1113
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:29,759
Speaker 1: exaggerated versions of different different accounts from like polarizing sides.

1114
01:15:30,600 --> 01:15:34,839
Speaker 1: So all that was going on, and so I wanted

1115
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:39,879
Speaker 1: to it was it was like this film project was about,

1116
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:44,520
Speaker 1: um trying to take something that was Are you familiar

1117
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:47,720
Speaker 1: with with the difference between like a priori knowledge and

1118
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 1: a posteriori knowledge? Yeah? Okay, so so so like you know,

1119
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:57,120
Speaker 1: for for anyone who might be listening that doesn't really

1120
01:15:57,160 --> 01:16:01,800
Speaker 1: know the exact difference. A priori edge is the type

1121
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,920
Speaker 1: of knowledge that you can have without needing to make

1122
01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 1: observations or conduct experiments or look at surveys or do

1123
01:16:08,439 --> 01:16:11,000
Speaker 1: any research of any any kind. Is a sort of

1124
01:16:11,040 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 1: knowledge you can know just by reasoning it out, but

1125
01:16:14,880 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: just by sitting in a room by yourself in the dark,

1126
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: you could figure things out. This is the sort this

1127
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,640
Speaker 1: is a priori knowledge. Um So, for an example of

1128
01:16:24,640 --> 01:16:28,639
Speaker 1: that is like knowing that all bachelors are unmarried, right,

1129
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:32,479
Speaker 1: or all triangles of three sides, that's a priori knowledge.

1130
01:16:32,600 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 1: An example of oppos stereori knowledge UM is something that

1131
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:42,240
Speaker 1: you find out through observation or you need using one

1132
01:16:42,400 --> 01:16:46,000
Speaker 1: or more of your five senses. Right, like Joe Biden

1133
01:16:46,120 --> 01:16:49,599
Speaker 1: is the President of the United States. Um, the masses

1134
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,160
Speaker 1: of Mars is six point four one seven one times

1135
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 1: ten to the twentys. You actually have to go out

1136
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 1: into the world and conduct surveys or do research. So

1137
01:16:58,160 --> 01:17:01,799
Speaker 1: that's opposterior knowledge. So the idea was to take something

1138
01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:07,719
Speaker 1: that was a priori false, something that could that could

1139
01:17:07,800 --> 01:17:12,559
Speaker 1: um be disproven by reason alone, Like you wouldn't have

1140
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:16,040
Speaker 1: You wouldn't need to do any research in order to

1141
01:17:16,040 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: to know that it was false. You'd simply had to

1142
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:23,000
Speaker 1: reflect on it and um think about it. Uh. So

1143
01:17:23,320 --> 01:17:25,559
Speaker 1: we could have picked anything, right, we could have. We

1144
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:28,439
Speaker 1: could have said made up like a fake news report

1145
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:33,000
Speaker 1: that leaves mathematicians that m I t having invented like

1146
01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 1: a square with five sides something like that. You know, Um,

1147
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:39,960
Speaker 1: I remember that weekend up there and sm now had

1148
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:44,240
Speaker 1: this sketch. I think it was like, um, forget who

1149
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:46,439
Speaker 1: it was. It might have been Kevin Nealon or something

1150
01:17:46,479 --> 01:17:50,519
Speaker 1: like that. The report was like scientists and mathematicians have

1151
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:54,519
Speaker 1: discovered the new number. The number exists between five and six,

1152
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: and they're calling it the numbers spleen, you know, something

1153
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:02,360
Speaker 1: like that, which is like just impossible. So, um, so

1154
01:18:02,479 --> 01:18:05,519
Speaker 1: come up with something that could be disproven by reason

1155
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: alone and at the same time surrounded with this wealth

1156
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 1: of online information um supporting its veracity. So, like you know,

1157
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:18,439
Speaker 1: it was kind of a social experiment. So I was like,

1158
01:18:18,560 --> 01:18:22,479
Speaker 1: have we are we so far beyond rational thinking that

1159
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:27,719
Speaker 1: even something that can be disproven a priori people would believe.

1160
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,160
Speaker 1: And it was like, we didn't really know the answer

1161
01:18:30,200 --> 01:18:32,799
Speaker 1: to that, but we were going to commit to creating

1162
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 1: this thing as though it was real and but which

1163
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 1: was like logically impossible. So in a way it anticipated

1164
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 1: the age of like this information because it wasn't just yeah.

1165
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: The thing I kind of alluded to in my little

1166
01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 1: scripted portion is that like, yeah, it wasn't just the

1167
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 1: YouTube video. There was also this extra online content that

1168
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 1: was created of whis yeah. Yes, like there was you

1169
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,519
Speaker 1: can find like articles, forum posts, all this kind of

1170
01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:01,680
Speaker 1: stuff like like like if yeah, like so if you

1171
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:04,040
Speaker 1: could look into it more and find these other things,

1172
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:06,960
Speaker 1: but it's still contradicts the basic logical processes that we

1173
01:19:07,000 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 1: can use to discern what is real what is not,

1174
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,120
Speaker 1: um interms of like yeah, in terms of like believing

1175
01:19:13,120 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: in a five studed square, like no, that's not what

1176
01:19:15,479 --> 01:19:18,599
Speaker 1: that that's that's not how like physics and like spatial

1177
01:19:18,920 --> 01:19:23,360
Speaker 1: like the spatial dimensions work. Um so yeah. And then

1178
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:25,960
Speaker 1: in terms of all the extra material you filmed for it,

1179
01:19:26,360 --> 01:19:28,200
Speaker 1: there was like there was like I think I read

1180
01:19:28,240 --> 01:19:32,479
Speaker 1: around like nine hours of documentary footage. Was also a

1181
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:35,320
Speaker 1: lot like a lot of footage, but it was only

1182
01:19:35,400 --> 01:19:39,360
Speaker 1: made into like probably a thirty minute thing. Um. We

1183
01:19:39,479 --> 01:19:41,960
Speaker 1: got our friends, like at the very very beginning, we

1184
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:43,720
Speaker 1: got our friends to play along with it. Like so

1185
01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: whenever you see posts about this, just comment like it's real, Like, yeah,

1186
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,640
Speaker 1: I was there. It was really great. And um, eventually

1187
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 1: people would actually start visiting this starewell like from all over,

1188
01:19:55,640 --> 01:19:58,559
Speaker 1: like from Canada. They crossed the border to get there

1189
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:02,080
Speaker 1: because it's in upstate New York, right. Um. And I

1190
01:20:02,120 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 1: actually ran into a couple from India who happened to

1191
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 1: be visiting visiting New York and they were like, since

1192
01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:10,080
Speaker 1: we're here, we'd like to see this stare Well that

1193
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Um. Oh no, I know, I felt

1194
01:20:14,600 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: really bad for a lot of the visitors. So we

1195
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 1: actually had to come up with souvenirs so that they

1196
01:20:19,240 --> 01:20:22,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't leave empty handed, right, So we made fake We

1197
01:20:22,640 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: made postcards like saying I've been to the Share and

1198
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:30,120
Speaker 1: Stailes and stuff like that program and um, well happened

1199
01:20:30,200 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 1: and the way we explained it, so a lot of

1200
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:34,479
Speaker 1: people were really mad actually, you know, as you can

1201
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:38,639
Speaker 1: imagine when they got there, but after um we would

1202
01:20:38,680 --> 01:20:41,879
Speaker 1: explain what we were doing of them with the project,

1203
01:20:42,080 --> 01:20:44,639
Speaker 1: Like a lot of them actually like started playing along

1204
01:20:44,680 --> 01:20:46,479
Speaker 1: and thought it was really cool, and they went home

1205
01:20:46,840 --> 01:20:49,280
Speaker 1: with their souvenirs and told their friends that they just

1206
01:20:49,320 --> 01:20:51,519
Speaker 1: saw this amazing thing. So you know, it kind of

1207
01:20:51,560 --> 01:20:54,640
Speaker 1: built that way for a little bit. Yeah, it's like

1208
01:20:54,680 --> 01:20:58,680
Speaker 1: telling kids that Santa isn't real exactly, and some of

1209
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:00,479
Speaker 1: them will be like, play along with the okay, cool,

1210
01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 1: this means I can play along with the myth to

1211
01:21:02,200 --> 01:21:04,519
Speaker 1: help you other kids happy. And some of them will

1212
01:21:04,560 --> 01:21:08,160
Speaker 1: be like, what, oh no, my entire reality is broken.

1213
01:21:10,360 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 1: And when you find out, is your trying to like

1214
01:21:12,880 --> 01:21:16,000
Speaker 1: pass it on exactly that. So a lot of that

1215
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: was going on, Like Shock the basketball player posted about

1216
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:22,920
Speaker 1: it at some point, Joe Rogan talked about it on

1217
01:21:23,000 --> 01:21:26,800
Speaker 1: his podcast. They got kind of crazy. Wait wait, did

1218
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:31,840
Speaker 1: did Joe Rogan know it wasn't real? Um, it's funny.

1219
01:21:31,840 --> 01:21:33,599
Speaker 1: You should see the clip of him doing it, because

1220
01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:35,679
Speaker 1: he was like it was him And who's the other guy,

1221
01:21:35,880 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 1: Bert Kreiser or something. Anyway, they were arguing about whether

1222
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:40,600
Speaker 1: or not was real. The other guy was like, no,

1223
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:44,200
Speaker 1: it's real. It's so real. Was like, all you guys

1224
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,080
Speaker 1: are fucking idiots. You're all idiots. Let's google it right now.

1225
01:21:47,520 --> 01:21:50,360
Speaker 1: They google it and they look up an article and

1226
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:54,479
Speaker 1: Joe Joe Rogan's like, Okay, yeah, alright, it's still fucking stupid.

1227
01:21:54,479 --> 01:22:00,680
Speaker 1: The guy who built it is fucking you know, I

1228
01:22:01,080 --> 01:22:02,920
Speaker 1: you have You have no idea how happy you have

1229
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 1: made me because I in my in my research, but

1230
01:22:05,720 --> 01:22:08,120
Speaker 1: like I have like read your thesis. I read all

1231
01:22:08,120 --> 01:22:11,080
Speaker 1: the lots of articles about this. I did not come

1232
01:22:11,120 --> 01:22:16,439
Speaker 1: across the Rogan clip, but I would right. Um, it's

1233
01:22:16,479 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 1: like way back right, it's like ten years ago. It's

1234
01:22:18,880 --> 01:22:20,559
Speaker 1: like a lot of stuff to dig through and I

1235
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:24,760
Speaker 1: found it though. Again, Um, so I'd like to kind

1236
01:22:24,760 --> 01:22:26,639
Speaker 1: of go into like the logistics of like actually doing

1237
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:28,559
Speaker 1: this in terms of like creating all the fake like

1238
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 1: web content, but also like you know, dreaming up this

1239
01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:35,360
Speaker 1: like family friendly science show that's made by our I T.

1240
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:37,600
Speaker 1: And like how like you know the thing between like

1241
01:22:37,680 --> 01:22:41,120
Speaker 1: naturalism and realism and making it like playing not trying

1242
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:44,960
Speaker 1: to replicate reality, but playing as if it were reality,

1243
01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:49,160
Speaker 1: and how those are two different things. Um. Yeah, well

1244
01:22:49,160 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: what we wanted to make it as real as possible

1245
01:22:52,320 --> 01:22:56,080
Speaker 1: and like that's what I was I'd been studying anyway,

1246
01:22:56,120 --> 01:23:01,080
Speaker 1: but in like a dramatic context, like making narrative films. Um.

1247
01:23:01,920 --> 01:23:05,800
Speaker 1: And the idea was to, um, there's this event at

1248
01:23:05,920 --> 01:23:08,080
Speaker 1: r I T every year which gets a lot of people,

1249
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 1: like thirty thousand people. Y'r go to the campus and

1250
01:23:11,320 --> 01:23:15,760
Speaker 1: look at like, um these uh whatever the students are

1251
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:18,360
Speaker 1: working on. It's kind of like a mini like festival

1252
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 1: type of thing. Well, not many is pretty big, So

1253
01:23:21,200 --> 01:23:24,639
Speaker 1: we we wanted to make a video for that event. Um.

1254
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:27,200
Speaker 1: As though we were promoting the event, Hey, come see

1255
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:29,720
Speaker 1: the Assarian Stairwell when you get your r I T

1256
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:33,519
Speaker 1: um and you know you normally for these like for

1257
01:23:33,600 --> 01:23:36,519
Speaker 1: these for these events, if you have a booth or something,

1258
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 1: you'll see reservations and you'll see like four people reserve

1259
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 1: fifteen people. Like we were like started getting nervous and

1260
01:23:42,600 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 1: we found out. We got a sense that this was

1261
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:47,599
Speaker 1: gonna be big because like when I looked at like

1262
01:23:47,640 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: the reservations for like our non existent starewell there were

1263
01:23:52,160 --> 01:23:59,200
Speaker 1: like one thousand plus visitors. Um. Yeah, I still remember

1264
01:23:59,280 --> 01:24:02,480
Speaker 1: like going a campus that day at the festival Saturday,

1265
01:24:02,680 --> 01:24:05,160
Speaker 1: and like my friend Ira like comes up to me.

1266
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,720
Speaker 1: He is like, Mike, people want to kill you, like

1267
01:24:08,160 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: cover get over here, and I was like trying to

1268
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 1: not show my faith anyway. Yeah that's what. So what

1269
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:17,320
Speaker 1: the way, Like a lot of the legs of the

1270
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:20,120
Speaker 1: project was just like word of mouth, I guess, and

1271
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,519
Speaker 1: we actually ran out of money. Um, we didn't get

1272
01:24:23,560 --> 01:24:26,519
Speaker 1: to do like the web stuff on the scale that

1273
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:29,160
Speaker 1: we wanted to, But it turned out that we didn't

1274
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,679
Speaker 1: even have to. In fact, like within a few days

1275
01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 1: or maybe a week or something after the original video

1276
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 1: came out, I posted a video explaining that it's a myth.

1277
01:24:40,520 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 1: Like I posted it and I was like, all right,

1278
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:44,800
Speaker 1: I was a fun ride. I was gonna be over

1279
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:50,120
Speaker 1: because here's a video of me explaining everything right, And

1280
01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: people still didn't believe it. People were saying that my

1281
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,320
Speaker 1: my video explaining was fake, that was a conspiracy. Like

1282
01:24:56,360 --> 01:25:02,040
Speaker 1: people were, you know, like the it's the actual myth

1283
01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:04,320
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, because it is. It is so much

1284
01:25:05,000 --> 01:25:06,960
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, they thought that is more

1285
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:09,680
Speaker 1: compelling than the idea that it is this like you know,

1286
01:25:10,640 --> 01:25:12,960
Speaker 1: project around what is real what's not. They've got so

1287
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:16,679
Speaker 1: invested in the reality of it that they'll explain away

1288
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: every other explanation, right right, um, exactly like my I

1289
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:27,400
Speaker 1: had a teacher at Rutgers where I did my undergrad

1290
01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 1: to Maudlin. He used to say that, you know, there's

1291
01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 1: two types of thinking. There's reasoning and there's rationalizing. Reasoning

1292
01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:37,720
Speaker 1: is when when you start from a place of ignorance

1293
01:25:37,960 --> 01:25:40,920
Speaker 1: and you um, look at the best evidence and the

1294
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: best arguments you can find and follow that through to

1295
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 1: the you know, the rational conclusion. Rationalizing is when you

1296
01:25:48,520 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: start from what you want to believe and working backwards

1297
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:57,920
Speaker 1: and looking for you know, right, looking for the arguments

1298
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:00,280
Speaker 1: that are already support what you're saying. There. There was

1299
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:03,599
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of rationalizing going on. I

1300
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 1: guess people wanted to believe it. Yeah, for for the

1301
01:26:10,479 --> 01:26:12,679
Speaker 1: how much how many people in this because they assume

1302
01:26:12,760 --> 01:26:14,559
Speaker 1: for all of the filming like like everyone was all

1303
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:16,400
Speaker 1: like in on it. But yeah, you know, there's a

1304
01:26:16,400 --> 01:26:17,880
Speaker 1: whole bunch of great stuff around like all of like

1305
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:19,880
Speaker 1: the Men on the Street segments are are are like

1306
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 1: perfectly done in terms of like people like just acting

1307
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:27,240
Speaker 1: like regular university students, like talking about the stairwell and

1308
01:26:27,280 --> 01:26:29,320
Speaker 1: like how they've got like lost and then they're like

1309
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:32,679
Speaker 1: looping around in a circle. Um. And all the segments

1310
01:26:32,720 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: with you with um like inside the stairwell with all

1311
01:26:35,600 --> 01:26:37,960
Speaker 1: like the very like the very clever thing. I assume

1312
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:41,800
Speaker 1: you're using stuff like Adobe after effects. Um. And yeah,

1313
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:45,200
Speaker 1: it's it is played. It's played so well like it's

1314
01:26:45,400 --> 01:26:46,840
Speaker 1: it's I think part of the part of why it's

1315
01:26:46,880 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 1: so successful is that it's not filmed like you would

1316
01:26:50,120 --> 01:26:52,680
Speaker 1: film something too high like like like for a lot

1317
01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:54,080
Speaker 1: of films when they like you want to do like

1318
01:26:54,080 --> 01:26:56,680
Speaker 1: like you know like like ah the term is like

1319
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:58,479
Speaker 1: a wonner where they had like one long shot and

1320
01:26:58,479 --> 01:27:01,080
Speaker 1: then they like hide the transitions in between. You can

1321
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 1: you can obviously tell like they're filming it to make

1322
01:27:03,000 --> 01:27:05,880
Speaker 1: these transitions work versus the way you film. This is

1323
01:27:06,080 --> 01:27:08,920
Speaker 1: just how people would film it if they were filming

1324
01:27:08,920 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 1: this four reel um and they tell that, and it's

1325
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:16,519
Speaker 1: it is so carefully done because it's not trying to

1326
01:27:16,640 --> 01:27:19,280
Speaker 1: be something it is. It is just being the thing

1327
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:22,519
Speaker 1: so earnestly in terms of like how how the actors

1328
01:27:22,520 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 1: like stumble over their lines and the like the opening segment, um,

1329
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: like the aesthetics of like all of like the title

1330
01:27:28,479 --> 01:27:31,599
Speaker 1: cards and everything is just so it has this has

1331
01:27:31,640 --> 01:27:34,880
Speaker 1: this like aura of earnestness, which I think helps sells

1332
01:27:34,960 --> 01:27:39,880
Speaker 1: the whole project so so much. Yeah. Yeah, actually, speaking

1333
01:27:39,920 --> 01:27:42,920
Speaker 1: of the show and like the cheesy title cards and stuff,

1334
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:46,240
Speaker 1: my girlfriend at the time was a producer for this

1335
01:27:46,320 --> 01:27:50,800
Speaker 1: show called this local show called Homework Cloudline and where

1336
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:53,639
Speaker 1: kids call in with their homework and they answer questions

1337
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,639
Speaker 1: about it. I studied the ship out of that show,

1338
01:27:56,960 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 1: just looking at how they built the sets and how

1339
01:27:59,840 --> 01:28:03,479
Speaker 1: it cheesy and how awkward like the hosts were, because

1340
01:28:03,520 --> 01:28:05,160
Speaker 1: a lot of it was like a lot of the

1341
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,320
Speaker 1: realism I think of it is just um, yeah, the

1342
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:12,640
Speaker 1: awkwardness of the people. How it's not um, it's not

1343
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:15,679
Speaker 1: really meant to be and and like like the best

1344
01:28:16,280 --> 01:28:20,360
Speaker 1: the most convincing untruths, right is a combination of fact

1345
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:24,240
Speaker 1: and fiction and you know a lot of and blending

1346
01:28:24,240 --> 01:28:28,320
Speaker 1: in the actors with real people you know, in in

1347
01:28:28,320 --> 01:28:32,040
Speaker 1: in the in the actual video stuff like that. It's like, yeah,

1348
01:28:32,040 --> 01:28:37,799
Speaker 1: like it comes goes pretty viral. Um, you like pretty

1349
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 1: quick create a very easy explanation for No, it's not

1350
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:43,080
Speaker 1: it's not real. It started this project. People still believe

1351
01:28:43,080 --> 01:28:45,400
Speaker 1: it for years and years. Um. As kind of the

1352
01:28:45,439 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 1: decade progresses and we go into like the era of

1353
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:51,160
Speaker 1: dis information, everyone starts getting shown into their pockets. Everyone

1354
01:28:51,200 --> 01:28:53,320
Speaker 1: has Facebook with them wherever they go, everyone has Twitter

1355
01:28:53,360 --> 01:28:55,400
Speaker 1: with them wherever they go. How is kind of your

1356
01:28:55,439 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 1: views on like the ethics of the project and what

1357
01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:00,640
Speaker 1: it demonstrates in terms of like a case study and

1358
01:29:00,640 --> 01:29:02,559
Speaker 1: like a social experiment, Like how has that changed over

1359
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:04,800
Speaker 1: the years from like you like ten years ago when

1360
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:08,120
Speaker 1: you're drimming this up to you now after you know,

1361
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:10,880
Speaker 1: we've had stuff like you know like January six and

1362
01:29:11,080 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 1: two and on. You know, all these types of things

1363
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 1: which I feel like if are almost like foreshadowed in

1364
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 1: this in this weird way by showing how successful your

1365
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:23,840
Speaker 1: little project is. Yeah, I'm so a lot of a

1366
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 1: lot of the criticisms that it was faced from the

1367
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:31,680
Speaker 1: get go, like from R. I. T. Professors, even it's

1368
01:29:31,720 --> 01:29:34,400
Speaker 1: still facing right now. Like it's still the type of

1369
01:29:34,439 --> 01:29:38,960
Speaker 1: thing people bring up, which is essentially that, hey, there's

1370
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:41,439
Speaker 1: so much disinformation out there. At the time, we weren't

1371
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:46,080
Speaker 1: even using those terms disinformation, right, but basically people were.

1372
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 1: We're bringing up the same complaints, which is, there's so

1373
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:53,840
Speaker 1: much disinformation out there, you're basically just adding to it.

1374
01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 1: What what are you even doing? So I guess the

1375
01:29:56,240 --> 01:30:01,639
Speaker 1: idea is that, and you know, it's a very noble idea,

1376
01:30:02,320 --> 01:30:06,719
Speaker 1: which is what's our response to disinformation? Right? We should

1377
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:09,240
Speaker 1: I guess the idea is we should call out every

1378
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:13,040
Speaker 1: instance of it when we can flag posts, UM, report

1379
01:30:13,080 --> 01:30:17,960
Speaker 1: posts that violate community community standards, you know, speak out, um,

1380
01:30:18,000 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 1: provide counter evidence when you see fake news that sort

1381
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:24,880
Speaker 1: of thing. And I think that's great, that's a good thing. UM.

1382
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:30,040
Speaker 1: But disinformation, the problem of disinformation is at the time,

1383
01:30:30,200 --> 01:30:32,080
Speaker 1: this is kind of how I explained that, like ten

1384
01:30:32,160 --> 01:30:34,639
Speaker 1: years ago, I I described it as a pen as

1385
01:30:34,680 --> 01:30:39,960
Speaker 1: an epidemic, yeah right, or or like a cockroach infestation,

1386
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:42,840
Speaker 1: like every time you kill one, ten more spring up

1387
01:30:43,560 --> 01:30:46,880
Speaker 1: and v this this notion of like we gotta call

1388
01:30:46,960 --> 01:30:51,360
Speaker 1: out every instance of disinformation and stomp it away. Is like,

1389
01:30:52,080 --> 01:30:55,400
Speaker 1: it's great, but you're focused on killing cockroaches. Yeah, it's

1390
01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:57,960
Speaker 1: like addressing the symptoms not the actual problem, right, I

1391
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:01,479
Speaker 1: want to get to the cockroach's nest. Right. And whenever

1392
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:06,240
Speaker 1: whenever I give talks about this um this project, people

1393
01:31:06,280 --> 01:31:10,040
Speaker 1: always approach me afterwards, you know, like wanting me to

1394
01:31:10,160 --> 01:31:12,400
Speaker 1: kind of because we we don't just talk about this project.

1395
01:31:12,439 --> 01:31:14,880
Speaker 1: We talked about like deep fake stuff, like we show

1396
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:18,400
Speaker 1: speeches of Obama, like looking like the real Obama, but

1397
01:31:18,439 --> 01:31:22,040
Speaker 1: it's like completely fake, right, and people start to realize

1398
01:31:22,040 --> 01:31:24,240
Speaker 1: the holy sh it, like I don't even know what's

1399
01:31:24,280 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 1: real or not anymore, Like what can I trust? And

1400
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 1: they approached me expecting me to ease their anxiety somehow

1401
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:32,839
Speaker 1: and kind of like guide them through how to discern

1402
01:31:32,880 --> 01:31:36,400
Speaker 1: what's true from what's not, as though my project was

1403
01:31:36,439 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 1: about finding some sort of solution, And I tell them that, like,

1404
01:31:41,120 --> 01:31:44,960
Speaker 1: my project wasn't about solving the problem. It was about

1405
01:31:45,040 --> 01:31:48,479
Speaker 1: seeing the problem, right, It's about it's about trying to

1406
01:31:48,520 --> 01:31:51,080
Speaker 1: get to the heart of the matter. And it's like

1407
01:31:51,720 --> 01:31:53,599
Speaker 1: to me, I think, like the heart of the matter,

1408
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:59,160
Speaker 1: like the cockroach's nest is the I don't know, you

1409
01:32:00,000 --> 01:32:03,200
Speaker 1: are different ways to say, but basically, the the lack

1410
01:32:03,240 --> 01:32:06,799
Speaker 1: of critical thinking and individuals and like in this society

1411
01:32:06,840 --> 01:32:11,520
Speaker 1: we shaped together or um or lack of a willingness

1412
01:32:11,560 --> 01:32:17,400
Speaker 1: to think through things carefully. Maybe that's that's um. That's like,

1413
01:32:17,439 --> 01:32:20,120
Speaker 1: if we had a society of critical thinkers, this wouldn't

1414
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,000
Speaker 1: be much of a problem. I think it's because so

1415
01:32:22,040 --> 01:32:24,960
Speaker 1: many people come at a lot of information from like

1416
01:32:24,960 --> 01:32:27,960
Speaker 1: when you would say, the rational viewpoint of like they're

1417
01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:30,000
Speaker 1: trying to use reason and stuff, like they're trying to

1418
01:32:30,040 --> 01:32:32,840
Speaker 1: think critically, they're trying to think logically, but they come

1419
01:32:32,880 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 1: at it in the terms of rationalizing stuff they already

1420
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:39,679
Speaker 1: believe um. And I think that's a very prevailing type

1421
01:32:39,680 --> 01:32:41,719
Speaker 1: of idea in terms of like, yes, I'm gonna believe

1422
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:44,160
Speaker 1: in this thing, so I'm gonna find evidence to support

1423
01:32:44,200 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 1: it um, which isn't critical thinking. I don't think. I'm

1424
01:32:48,040 --> 01:32:51,440
Speaker 1: not really why is that? Is itself a logical fallacy?

1425
01:32:51,600 --> 01:32:53,679
Speaker 1: But that is so calm, especially on the Internet, because

1426
01:32:53,720 --> 01:32:56,599
Speaker 1: the Internet encourages the backfire effects. You know, whenever someone

1427
01:32:56,600 --> 01:32:59,479
Speaker 1: calls it on something you want to be right, so

1428
01:32:59,520 --> 01:33:01,439
Speaker 1: you're gonna it's as soon as as soon as someone

1429
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:03,760
Speaker 1: calls something you're going to backfire. You're going to like

1430
01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:08,080
Speaker 1: become even more entrenched in what you believe. Um when

1431
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:10,120
Speaker 1: you you know, when when you explain to someone that know,

1432
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton is bad, but she doesn't eat the blood

1433
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,000
Speaker 1: of children, Like, no, she does. I saw all this thing.

1434
01:33:16,120 --> 01:33:17,840
Speaker 1: I have to believe it because like all of the

1435
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 1: things aren't tied up in what makes you a person.

1436
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:23,080
Speaker 1: And now all of these ideas that have that where

1437
01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 1: used to be just be conspiracy theories that you can

1438
01:33:24,640 --> 01:33:27,280
Speaker 1: believe in for fun, are now so a part of

1439
01:33:27,680 --> 01:33:30,360
Speaker 1: like what people's sense of being are and how they

1440
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:33,240
Speaker 1: have their entire world view that there's so much more

1441
01:33:34,400 --> 01:33:36,599
Speaker 1: because the Internet is such a bigger part of their lives.

1442
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:38,240
Speaker 1: Everything on the Internet is a bigger part of the

1443
01:33:38,280 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 1: lives for each person. So it is more of an

1444
01:33:40,360 --> 01:33:43,360
Speaker 1: ontological threat because these things are so closer together now, right,

1445
01:33:43,360 --> 01:33:44,840
Speaker 1: They used to be much more of a distinction between

1446
01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:46,720
Speaker 1: the Internet and you because you can only ask the

1447
01:33:46,760 --> 01:33:48,679
Speaker 1: computer every once in a while. We can now carry

1448
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:50,920
Speaker 1: on as a supercomputer wherever you go, so it is

1449
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:52,240
Speaker 1: like a part of you, like you bring it with

1450
01:33:52,280 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 1: you almost everywhere. It's always in your pocket. So these

1451
01:33:55,240 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 1: things are so like stitched together that prying them apart

1452
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 1: and tell people know this thing you would carry around

1453
01:34:02,439 --> 01:34:04,679
Speaker 1: Actually probably most don't you see on it isn't isn't

1454
01:34:04,720 --> 01:34:08,639
Speaker 1: actually true like there is people can like believe that

1455
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:12,360
Speaker 1: in their heads, but don't actually don't. Actually the belief

1456
01:34:12,360 --> 01:34:14,160
Speaker 1: hasn't actually impact them because like we all know that

1457
01:34:14,200 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 1: there's like well we all know that people can just

1458
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:18,040
Speaker 1: go on the internet and lie, right, it is like

1459
01:34:18,280 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 1: part of the joke, but we still don't act like it.

1460
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:26,280
Speaker 1: Like oftentimes we get so we get so like encased

1461
01:34:26,320 --> 01:34:28,639
Speaker 1: into the stories that we tell ourselves. Right, the part

1462
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:30,320
Speaker 1: of our the is sharing stairwell is so good is

1463
01:34:30,360 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 1: that it's such a it's such a compelling story like that,

1464
01:34:32,800 --> 01:34:35,519
Speaker 1: Like the idea of like a brilliant architect bringing like

1465
01:34:35,600 --> 01:34:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, building this paradox in the real world is

1466
01:34:39,200 --> 01:34:42,880
Speaker 1: like is so much more fun than being like, yeah,

1467
01:34:42,920 --> 01:34:45,800
Speaker 1: some dude just knows how to use Adobe after effects.

1468
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: Like right, So you get so entrenched into storytelling because

1469
01:34:50,000 --> 01:34:53,439
Speaker 1: the story of like politicians eating eating the blood of

1470
01:34:53,520 --> 01:34:57,040
Speaker 1: children is so much more interesting than no, politicians just

1471
01:34:57,080 --> 01:35:00,439
Speaker 1: don't care about you like, and I think to the

1472
01:35:00,479 --> 01:35:03,080
Speaker 1: heart of that problem is so much more difficult than

1473
01:35:03,160 --> 01:35:06,120
Speaker 1: just you know, debunking things, because you can debunk things

1474
01:35:06,160 --> 01:35:10,559
Speaker 1: all day and does that actually matter? Yeah, I think

1475
01:35:10,560 --> 01:35:12,680
Speaker 1: there there's there's a secondary problem that like, you know,

1476
01:35:12,720 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 1: there's anohing like a lether level of it, which is

1477
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:17,240
Speaker 1: that yeah, like everyone knows that there's this information now,

1478
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:20,200
Speaker 1: like everyone does, but but that just makes it worse

1479
01:35:20,280 --> 01:35:22,519
Speaker 1: because now if you want to do this information, what

1480
01:35:22,600 --> 01:35:24,000
Speaker 1: you can claim is like, oh, hey, look at all

1481
01:35:24,040 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 1: these other times that all the stuff has been fake

1482
01:35:26,200 --> 01:35:27,439
Speaker 1: and then you know, and this is how you get

1483
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 1: everyone like doing frame by frame analysis of like a

1484
01:35:30,640 --> 01:35:33,439
Speaker 1: bombing and going oh, these are all crisis actors, and

1485
01:35:33,479 --> 01:35:35,280
Speaker 1: it's like you know, and you talk, you talk to

1486
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:38,200
Speaker 1: these people and they're like, oh, yeah, no, I did.

1487
01:35:38,240 --> 01:35:40,000
Speaker 1: I did the research. Look, I like I saw through

1488
01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:42,559
Speaker 1: the lives and it's like, no, You've just completely made

1489
01:35:42,560 --> 01:35:44,920
Speaker 1: this thing up in your head. You can see the

1490
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:48,719
Speaker 1: green screen compression and like, no, it's just regular video compression,

1491
01:35:48,760 --> 01:35:51,320
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, like everyone can be a detective now,

1492
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:54,160
Speaker 1: so everyone can be so convinced to their own conclusions,

1493
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:57,320
Speaker 1: even when the conclusions turned out to be not true. Right,

1494
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:01,800
Speaker 1: it's a problem. If there was an exy solution, we

1495
01:36:01,840 --> 01:36:04,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't have the problem. Right. It's one of those things

1496
01:36:04,280 --> 01:36:06,760
Speaker 1: where it's like your projects a very good example of

1497
01:36:06,800 --> 01:36:09,960
Speaker 1: like it's it's it's it's a very demonstrative thing. You

1498
01:36:10,000 --> 01:36:13,320
Speaker 1: can like you you take someone along this journey and demonstrate, hey,

1499
01:36:13,439 --> 01:36:15,400
Speaker 1: this can happen to you, so you should watch out

1500
01:36:15,439 --> 01:36:17,799
Speaker 1: for us. Right, Look look at the story I crafted.

1501
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: Look how you become convinced it for these six minutes

1502
01:36:20,680 --> 01:36:24,280
Speaker 1: and then you think, oh, wait, no, you can't teleport

1503
01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:27,720
Speaker 1: to a bottom stairwell. That's not that's not how that works. Um.

1504
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:30,080
Speaker 1: But because you take them on that journey, it's a

1505
01:36:30,160 --> 01:36:31,760
Speaker 1: very it's a I love it so much as like

1506
01:36:31,800 --> 01:36:36,080
Speaker 1: a demonstrative process, being like like this can happen, so

1507
01:36:36,160 --> 01:36:38,120
Speaker 1: watch out for it in the future. I think is

1508
01:36:38,120 --> 01:36:43,680
Speaker 1: honestly more useful than just debunking somebody because you can

1509
01:36:43,920 --> 01:36:45,240
Speaker 1: you can debunk all day and you can have the

1510
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 1: backfire effect and stuff. And you're right about the demonstrative stuff,

1511
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:52,760
Speaker 1: because it's like if a bunch of film students and

1512
01:36:52,840 --> 01:36:56,760
Speaker 1: volunteers with no connections and no resources pulled this off,

1513
01:36:56,840 --> 01:36:59,559
Speaker 1: like We did like a tally of all the videos

1514
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 1: at the end of the year of um, you know,

1515
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:05,519
Speaker 1: all the videos that ripped it off and posted on

1516
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:08,240
Speaker 1: their own channels and all that. Um, it was like

1517
01:37:08,320 --> 01:37:10,920
Speaker 1: fifty million. Right. So if if a bunch of film

1518
01:37:11,000 --> 01:37:14,960
Speaker 1: students like had that much influence, what more can like

1519
01:37:15,080 --> 01:37:21,599
Speaker 1: people who are actually fund like and resources, right, what

1520
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:24,479
Speaker 1: could they do? And we were just doing and ours

1521
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:28,280
Speaker 1: was about like this innocuous, silly Stairwell, it wasn't about

1522
01:37:28,320 --> 01:37:32,240
Speaker 1: anything that would cause you know, anyone's death or anything

1523
01:37:32,280 --> 01:37:36,280
Speaker 1: like that or and like, you know, something like in

1524
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:41,480
Speaker 1: Me and Mar where the ME and Mar military basically

1525
01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:48,040
Speaker 1: systemically systematically created fake articles and fake photos to create

1526
01:37:48,160 --> 01:37:52,200
Speaker 1: like to arouse disdain for the row hinge of people

1527
01:37:52,320 --> 01:37:57,080
Speaker 1: and basically they incited a genocide through Facebook just through

1528
01:37:57,120 --> 01:38:01,840
Speaker 1: fake news right in the Philippines where I live right now, um,

1529
01:38:01,960 --> 01:38:06,120
Speaker 1: which a lot of commentators call like the patient zero

1530
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:13,440
Speaker 1: of disinformation because this guy called was elected president basically

1531
01:38:14,000 --> 01:38:18,720
Speaker 1: ran running his entire campaign on disinformation and after him

1532
01:38:18,760 --> 01:38:21,479
Speaker 1: was Brexit like a month later, and after that was

1533
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:25,000
Speaker 1: Trump got the nomination. So like what's her named, Kate

1534
01:38:25,120 --> 01:38:28,639
Speaker 1: Katie Barth Barth or or something like that. The one

1535
01:38:28,640 --> 01:38:31,439
Speaker 1: of the executives of Facebook referred to the Philippines as

1536
01:38:31,960 --> 01:38:37,559
Speaker 1: patient zero in the era of disinformation because like, um

1537
01:38:37,600 --> 01:38:42,360
Speaker 1: and the thing that the president here right now was

1538
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:46,120
Speaker 1: running on was basically like the same sort of um

1539
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:50,400
Speaker 1: bothering and scapegoating of a certain group. And he said, basically,

1540
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:53,200
Speaker 1: he's the guy who said, like, basically, if you're a

1541
01:38:53,240 --> 01:38:55,880
Speaker 1: drug user or a drug dealer, it should be okay

1542
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:58,559
Speaker 1: to murder you and kill you. And that's what happened.

1543
01:38:58,600 --> 01:39:01,400
Speaker 1: That's exactly what happened. And because they were posting all

1544
01:39:01,400 --> 01:39:05,840
Speaker 1: these stories about um, you know, the same sorts of

1545
01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:08,639
Speaker 1: stories that you that that we saw in the US

1546
01:39:08,680 --> 01:39:12,599
Speaker 1: in twenties sixteen about undocumented immigrants or Muslims or something

1547
01:39:12,680 --> 01:39:15,840
Speaker 1: like that. This like, oh, this undocumented immigrant raped the

1548
01:39:15,880 --> 01:39:17,559
Speaker 1: five year old girl, you know, that sort of thing.

1549
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:24,920
Speaker 1: And he would the the the organized campaign making up

1550
01:39:24,920 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 1: stories about drug addicts like murdering and raping people. Basically

1551
01:39:30,800 --> 01:39:35,240
Speaker 1: like got an entire nation too, well, not an entire nation,

1552
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:39,680
Speaker 1: but basically this guy won the election. And you know,

1553
01:39:40,240 --> 01:39:44,800
Speaker 1: we have a country right now that basically lived through

1554
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:49,680
Speaker 1: just atrocities the last five six years, you know, and

1555
01:39:49,760 --> 01:39:52,360
Speaker 1: like the double edged sort of this, like Chris mentioned,

1556
01:39:52,479 --> 01:39:56,320
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, this type same type of thing. Because

1557
01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:59,760
Speaker 1: it exists, people also like retractively apply it to like

1558
01:40:00,120 --> 01:40:03,320
Speaker 1: you know, like Sandy Hook was staged or like even

1559
01:40:03,360 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: stuff now with like you know the pandemic, right, people

1560
01:40:06,360 --> 01:40:08,280
Speaker 1: like what if what is? What is the pandemic is

1561
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:10,280
Speaker 1: a real? What if all these people have just you know,

1562
01:40:10,880 --> 01:40:13,800
Speaker 1: conjured this thing into being and it's all a giant

1563
01:40:13,880 --> 01:40:16,599
Speaker 1: insifferation campaign, right, So it has this dual it has

1564
01:40:16,600 --> 01:40:20,000
Speaker 1: this double edged sword nature um which makes combat and

1565
01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:23,600
Speaker 1: information so challenging. It's like disiformation to combat information, to

1566
01:40:23,640 --> 01:40:27,799
Speaker 1: comment the idea of disinformation, and there's so many layers

1567
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: of it. Now this this this, it's just yeah, it

1568
01:40:31,560 --> 01:40:33,320
Speaker 1: makes it, It makes actually gett into the heart of

1569
01:40:33,360 --> 01:40:36,080
Speaker 1: it so much more challenging. It's been abstracted so many times.

1570
01:40:36,720 --> 01:40:39,200
Speaker 1: And one of the things that didn't didn't the New

1571
01:40:39,280 --> 01:40:40,920
Speaker 1: York Times weren't it the first people to come up

1572
01:40:40,920 --> 01:40:42,720
Speaker 1: with the term fake news? And then Trump started using

1573
01:40:42,720 --> 01:40:46,720
Speaker 1: it after Like we were watching pastificate, which newsiper was,

1574
01:40:46,760 --> 01:40:48,400
Speaker 1: but my memory if it was like it was, it

1575
01:40:48,439 --> 01:40:50,080
Speaker 1: was it was the media that came up with fake news.

1576
01:40:50,120 --> 01:40:53,240
Speaker 1: And then like Trump just took it and it became

1577
01:40:53,280 --> 01:40:56,519
Speaker 1: this like this just like demon they absolutely could not

1578
01:40:56,560 --> 01:40:59,840
Speaker 1: control and was just turned on them. Do you do

1579
01:40:59,880 --> 01:41:02,960
Speaker 1: you remember the context in which they used it. They

1580
01:41:03,040 --> 01:41:06,320
Speaker 1: were like they were I think they were calling like

1581
01:41:06,520 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 1: stuff that Trump said fake news. M M I am.

1582
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:15,120
Speaker 1: I'm unsure at the moment who specifically coined that term,

1583
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:17,360
Speaker 1: but I mean we definitely see in terms like even

1584
01:41:17,479 --> 01:41:20,040
Speaker 1: in even terms like desigeration, which used to be more

1585
01:41:20,120 --> 01:41:23,400
Speaker 1: tied to like a discording in philosophy, breaking like in

1586
01:41:23,479 --> 01:41:25,640
Speaker 1: like even even back even as back far as like

1587
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:28,640
Speaker 1: the eighties, getting you know, turned into an actual like

1588
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:32,759
Speaker 1: political term that everybody uses, so that it was actually

1589
01:41:32,800 --> 01:41:36,200
Speaker 1: somebody from buzz Speed. An editor at buzz Speed was

1590
01:41:36,280 --> 01:41:40,040
Speaker 1: one of that makes sense, is one of the ones

1591
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 1: who first popularized it. Uh was, Yeah, But there could

1592
01:41:45,520 --> 01:41:49,160
Speaker 1: be there could be you know, several other people that

1593
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:51,760
Speaker 1: say that they coined it. I don't know, I mean,

1594
01:41:51,800 --> 01:41:56,280
Speaker 1: I even there's even u an illustration from eighteen ninety

1595
01:41:56,400 --> 01:42:01,080
Speaker 1: four by by Frederick Offer with reporter is carrying newspapers

1596
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:05,880
Speaker 1: labeled humble lows, cheap sensation, and fake news. So it's

1597
01:42:05,920 --> 01:42:07,519
Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of in terms of just mashing

1598
01:42:07,520 --> 01:42:10,200
Speaker 1: words together. I'm sure it has has had a decent history,

1599
01:42:10,560 --> 01:42:13,160
Speaker 1: but definitely Trump is the one that like launched it

1600
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:19,800
Speaker 1: into the zeitgeist, right right, right, Let's see, Robert, you've

1601
01:42:19,800 --> 01:42:21,600
Speaker 1: been pretty quiet. I know it's pretty early in the

1602
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:23,280
Speaker 1: morning for you. Do you have any do you have

1603
01:42:23,280 --> 01:42:26,120
Speaker 1: any kind of thoughts to help us kind of generally

1604
01:42:26,160 --> 01:42:28,520
Speaker 1: start closing us out, not not not like super immediately,

1605
01:42:28,560 --> 01:42:31,280
Speaker 1: but generally having that direction. I mean no, not really

1606
01:42:31,360 --> 01:42:35,599
Speaker 1: kind of brought up everything. I would say, all right,

1607
01:42:35,720 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 1: all right, it's ah, yeah, I guess, uh, Mike, what

1608
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:46,000
Speaker 1: have How is this project of impacted how you approach

1609
01:42:46,080 --> 01:42:48,720
Speaker 1: film and just like how you how you use the

1610
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:55,200
Speaker 1: internet yourself in the past decade? M hmm, Well, I

1611
01:42:55,200 --> 01:43:01,479
Speaker 1: I'm fully aware of what we did. Every time I'm

1612
01:43:01,560 --> 01:43:03,760
Speaker 1: like looking at something, I'm like, they had done that?

1613
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:05,960
Speaker 1: Could they have done this? And that, you know that

1614
01:43:06,040 --> 01:43:13,280
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Um, I don't know if it's if yeah,

1615
01:43:13,320 --> 01:43:15,519
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not sure how it's how this project

1616
01:43:15,600 --> 01:43:22,160
Speaker 1: specifically had impacted me, other than just trying to think

1617
01:43:22,200 --> 01:43:26,040
Speaker 1: through things a bit more carefully, trying to go through

1618
01:43:26,120 --> 01:43:31,520
Speaker 1: things like, um, I mean like so we we basically

1619
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:35,920
Speaker 1: came up with this idea of what eventually became troll farms.

1620
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:39,960
Speaker 1: Right like me and like my classmates would Hey, we

1621
01:43:40,240 --> 01:43:43,640
Speaker 1: even make fake accounts and like talk about the stairwell,

1622
01:43:44,320 --> 01:43:48,960
Speaker 1: and um so, I don't know, like a few years

1623
01:43:49,000 --> 01:43:52,320
Speaker 1: later people we we learned that people were actually doing this,

1624
01:43:52,479 --> 01:43:56,800
Speaker 1: like to influence like elections around the world, and a

1625
01:43:56,880 --> 01:44:01,400
Speaker 1: lot of the strategy of like the control forms and stuff,

1626
01:44:02,400 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 1: um was to basically create caricature versions right of arguments

1627
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:12,519
Speaker 1: from whatever side, like you know, whether they might present

1628
01:44:12,560 --> 01:44:15,600
Speaker 1: an argument from like the left or the right, but

1629
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:19,360
Speaker 1: in like a caricaturized version of it. And um, so

1630
01:44:19,439 --> 01:44:22,240
Speaker 1: what people would see when they see that, they'd see

1631
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:25,120
Speaker 1: an argument coming from the other side, and they'd ridicule it,

1632
01:44:25,200 --> 01:44:29,120
Speaker 1: like look at these people who just seem crazy espousing

1633
01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:33,800
Speaker 1: this whatever view, you know, or they might say things like, um,

1634
01:44:33,840 --> 01:44:36,519
Speaker 1: like yeah, if you're a Democrat, you want to abort

1635
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:39,320
Speaker 1: babies that like the ninth month or something like that,

1636
01:44:39,360 --> 01:44:44,400
Speaker 1: which no reasonable person actually argued. So what happens is like, um,

1637
01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:47,559
Speaker 1: people talk about how the goal of Russia was to

1638
01:44:47,640 --> 01:44:53,559
Speaker 1: like polarize, you know, um, polarize the political spectrum. I

1639
01:44:53,600 --> 01:44:58,280
Speaker 1: think like the bigger goal and the the goal that

1640
01:44:58,360 --> 01:45:01,280
Speaker 1: we're going to be untangling for many many years. And

1641
01:45:01,320 --> 01:45:07,000
Speaker 1: the more um the more difficult problem to deal with

1642
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 1: was that they oversimple They successfully oversimplified discourse. You know

1643
01:45:13,280 --> 01:45:15,680
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like they found a way to like

1644
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:20,519
Speaker 1: oversimplify the type of discourse we're having because everyone's like

1645
01:45:20,640 --> 01:45:25,599
Speaker 1: arguing with such simplistic I'm not sure if I'm making sense.

1646
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:28,640
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's like the term I use

1647
01:45:28,720 --> 01:45:32,800
Speaker 1: is like politics as fandom, right, And that's why I

1648
01:45:32,800 --> 01:45:35,679
Speaker 1: think that like intersect not not exactly what you're saying,

1649
01:45:35,680 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 1: but like intersects with that type of idea of like

1650
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 1: condensing down actual discussions on like what you believe in

1651
01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:46,000
Speaker 1: um and what politics you want and how you want

1652
01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:48,600
Speaker 1: to put the world into this weird fandom lens of

1653
01:45:48,600 --> 01:45:50,719
Speaker 1: like this team versus this team which we we we

1654
01:45:50,720 --> 01:45:52,360
Speaker 1: we we we we We've had a degree of that

1655
01:45:52,439 --> 01:45:55,400
Speaker 1: for a long long time. But with the Internet and

1656
01:45:55,400 --> 01:45:58,439
Speaker 1: how how discussions on the Internet are designed to work, right,

1657
01:45:58,560 --> 01:46:00,840
Speaker 1: how algorithms want to boost her him, how there's always

1658
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:03,799
Speaker 1: these short snippets just in mirrors the way people discuss

1659
01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:07,000
Speaker 1: like what Star Wars character is their favorite. It's just that.

1660
01:46:07,120 --> 01:46:11,960
Speaker 1: But for politics, um, so it's it's just this, like

1661
01:46:12,040 --> 01:46:14,800
Speaker 1: what if politics is just this idea of fandom, and

1662
01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:17,519
Speaker 1: you can debate what fandom is more valid than the other. Right,

1663
01:46:17,840 --> 01:46:20,520
Speaker 1: I like the Last Jedi more you like Rise of Skywalker.

1664
01:46:20,760 --> 01:46:23,360
Speaker 1: This means your version of reality is less good than mine.

1665
01:46:23,600 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: So when that objectively true, which is which is? But

1666
01:46:31,120 --> 01:46:34,320
Speaker 1: is that same idea but for how we like make

1667
01:46:34,400 --> 01:46:37,280
Speaker 1: social programs and how we address racism, and how we

1668
01:46:37,320 --> 01:46:40,040
Speaker 1: like give food to poor people, and how we do

1669
01:46:40,080 --> 01:46:43,479
Speaker 1: affordable housing and how we handle the police. So it's

1670
01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:49,720
Speaker 1: that type of idea which is just disinformation kind of

1671
01:46:49,760 --> 01:46:53,439
Speaker 1: impacts this in part because when you flood the zone

1672
01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:57,599
Speaker 1: with so much conflicting information that people can't really get

1673
01:46:57,640 --> 01:47:00,800
Speaker 1: a handle on or easily sort of like when they're

1674
01:47:00,840 --> 01:47:04,479
Speaker 1: when when you've when you've put that much confusion into

1675
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:07,479
Speaker 1: the air, um, it makes people more likely to just

1676
01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:10,680
Speaker 1: kind of grasp its sides because everything coming out is

1677
01:47:10,720 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 1: way too complicated and messy, and it's it takes too

1678
01:47:13,520 --> 01:47:17,320
Speaker 1: much work what's actually true? So holding to some rubric

1679
01:47:17,360 --> 01:47:20,200
Speaker 1: of well I believe this, so that means these are

1680
01:47:20,200 --> 01:47:22,439
Speaker 1: the good guys, These are the bad guys. And I

1681
01:47:22,479 --> 01:47:25,280
Speaker 1: don't have to analyze it any deeper than that. I

1682
01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:27,720
Speaker 1: can reject information that comes from this group, where I

1683
01:47:27,720 --> 01:47:32,120
Speaker 1: can reject information that says this, um, because I just

1684
01:47:32,240 --> 01:47:37,200
Speaker 1: category categorically reject you know, anything that that fits in

1685
01:47:37,240 --> 01:47:40,920
Speaker 1: with that. Like, that's the benefit of disinformation for authoritarians

1686
01:47:40,920 --> 01:47:44,680
Speaker 1: of all stripes. You're seeing in Ukraine right now, where um,

1687
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:48,200
Speaker 1: you've got all of these different authoritarian powers. You've got Turkey,

1688
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:51,200
Speaker 1: you've got Russia, you've got um, you know, fucking the

1689
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:54,120
Speaker 1: United States, at least to the extent that like we

1690
01:47:54,479 --> 01:47:57,960
Speaker 1: impact a lot of things internationally. Um. And you've got

1691
01:47:58,120 --> 01:48:01,160
Speaker 1: them all coming down on different sides of this issue

1692
01:48:01,320 --> 01:48:04,160
Speaker 1: and of what's happening in Ukraine. And because there's so

1693
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:08,800
Speaker 1: much disinformation and misinformation about what's going on, people just

1694
01:48:08,880 --> 01:48:13,120
Speaker 1: kind of grasp at whatever side I'm have been more

1695
01:48:13,160 --> 01:48:16,280
Speaker 1: sympathetic to recently, I'm just going to believe whatever they

1696
01:48:16,360 --> 01:48:20,200
Speaker 1: say because it's way too complicated to actually analyze what's

1697
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:22,519
Speaker 1: going on. Yeah, And this was this was the thing

1698
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:24,519
Speaker 1: that that I mean, this was explicit on the left.

1699
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:29,160
Speaker 1: I remember this. There was this around Umen. There was

1700
01:48:29,160 --> 01:48:31,760
Speaker 1: a whole thing about how like people people like talking

1701
01:48:31,760 --> 01:48:35,640
Speaker 1: about anti imperialism would would literally say like nuance, nuances liberalism.

1702
01:48:36,320 --> 01:48:39,519
Speaker 1: I don't like nuances liberalism, don't don't research this, don't

1703
01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:43,040
Speaker 1: think about this because nuances how liberals like you know,

1704
01:48:43,200 --> 01:48:45,759
Speaker 1: spread sort of pro promising change, proplicanda, Like I remember

1705
01:48:45,760 --> 01:48:47,800
Speaker 1: those people like every Frost just just straight up said

1706
01:48:47,840 --> 01:48:49,960
Speaker 1: this and this was a huge and you know, like

1707
01:48:50,000 --> 01:48:52,040
Speaker 1: I got a lot of shift for this because you know,

1708
01:48:52,479 --> 01:48:54,840
Speaker 1: like I remember when when when the Coon Bolivia happened,

1709
01:48:54,880 --> 01:48:57,040
Speaker 1: Like I made a giant thread that was trying to

1710
01:48:57,240 --> 01:48:58,800
Speaker 1: that was like, okay, we need to figure out like

1711
01:48:59,160 --> 01:49:01,960
Speaker 1: how specificly the CIA was involved in this, Like okay,

1712
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:03,840
Speaker 1: so did they plan the whole thing? Was it? Like

1713
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:06,280
Speaker 1: were they working with local partners? Wasn't a thing where

1714
01:49:06,280 --> 01:49:07,880
Speaker 1: someone else planned it and they signed off on it?

1715
01:49:07,920 --> 01:49:10,599
Speaker 1: And like to this day people think that I supported

1716
01:49:10,600 --> 01:49:12,880
Speaker 1: the coup because I was like, we should figure out

1717
01:49:12,920 --> 01:49:14,840
Speaker 1: who was who the actors were in the ground because

1718
01:49:14,840 --> 01:49:17,720
Speaker 1: no one like this, this this this this became like

1719
01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:21,479
Speaker 1: a like like like a tenant, like like an actual

1720
01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:24,240
Speaker 1: sort of like like political tenants of of how a

1721
01:49:24,280 --> 01:49:27,519
Speaker 1: lot of antimpurialism, like in the American left worked was you.

1722
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:29,960
Speaker 1: You were not supposed to do nuanced, You were not

1723
01:49:30,000 --> 01:49:32,120
Speaker 1: supposed to look at who was Like you know, if

1724
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:34,120
Speaker 1: if if you spent too long looking at what was

1725
01:49:34,160 --> 01:49:35,800
Speaker 1: going on in the ground, people would be like you

1726
01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:39,400
Speaker 1: you worked for the CIA, and that you know, I

1727
01:49:39,400 --> 01:49:41,599
Speaker 1: think like we we we've we've finally seen that basically

1728
01:49:41,600 --> 01:49:44,000
Speaker 1: blow up in their faces because you know, oh, hey,

1729
01:49:44,000 --> 01:49:45,920
Speaker 1: look how many of these people just like would up

1730
01:49:45,960 --> 01:49:49,240
Speaker 1: supporting Russia and then spent like three months saying that

1731
01:49:49,320 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: Russia would never invade Ukraine. That this happens. But it's

1732
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:55,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's it's it's extremely depressing how

1733
01:49:56,000 --> 01:49:59,720
Speaker 1: people who otherwise are you know, like in a lot

1734
01:49:59,720 --> 01:50:01,120
Speaker 1: of way. It is like I've spent a lot of

1735
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:05,679
Speaker 1: their time like trying to you know, filter out stuff

1736
01:50:05,680 --> 01:50:08,759
Speaker 1: from the media that's false, just go into this because

1737
01:50:09,560 --> 01:50:13,160
Speaker 1: they just do not want to deal with the complexity

1738
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:18,320
Speaker 1: of reality. Yeah, just easier not to. Again, if there

1739
01:50:18,360 --> 01:50:20,400
Speaker 1: was a simple problem, we wouldn't mean, if there was

1740
01:50:20,439 --> 01:50:24,679
Speaker 1: a simple solution, we wouldn't need to discuss the problem. Yeah. Yeah,

1741
01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:28,400
Speaker 1: So I guess basically like just to like um, answer

1742
01:50:28,680 --> 01:50:32,080
Speaker 1: that question about how it I guess at the time,

1743
01:50:32,160 --> 01:50:34,360
Speaker 1: I'd say like we got an up close look at

1744
01:50:34,680 --> 01:50:37,280
Speaker 1: how things were going to be, Like you know, with

1745
01:50:37,280 --> 01:50:40,640
Speaker 1: with all these things, we we kind of anticipated the

1746
01:50:40,680 --> 01:50:46,960
Speaker 1: next few years. Um so yeah, that's basically what happened. Um,

1747
01:50:46,960 --> 01:50:52,960
Speaker 1: sorry to interrupt your clothing, but no, no, no, it's

1748
01:50:53,000 --> 01:50:56,559
Speaker 1: the it's the best note that that we can go. Um, Michael,

1749
01:50:56,720 --> 01:50:59,000
Speaker 1: do you where can people find you online? And if

1750
01:50:59,000 --> 01:51:01,200
Speaker 1: people want to look into us with your other projects,

1751
01:51:02,160 --> 01:51:05,519
Speaker 1: I mean you found me, Like if they want to

1752
01:51:05,560 --> 01:51:07,559
Speaker 1: find me, they'll find me, right, I don't know. I

1753
01:51:07,600 --> 01:51:10,240
Speaker 1: still don't know. You got my email, but Garrison is

1754
01:51:10,240 --> 01:51:13,519
Speaker 1: extremely good about this, Tope. Any people are that could

1755
01:51:14,880 --> 01:51:17,519
Speaker 1: uh yeah, well they can check out the YouTube channel

1756
01:51:17,760 --> 01:51:21,560
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna be posting some new films this year probably,

1757
01:51:22,120 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 1: Um so my name Michael Lock. Canna allow or just

1758
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:30,080
Speaker 1: search the achariance there. Well, I guess that's a way. Yeah. Yeah,

1759
01:51:30,479 --> 01:51:34,240
Speaker 1: I'll add your YouTube channel to to the description. Yeah,

1760
01:51:34,240 --> 01:51:35,680
Speaker 1: and I just want to thank you so much for

1761
01:51:35,720 --> 01:51:40,400
Speaker 1: coming on to talk about your your project. Yeah, thanks

1762
01:51:40,400 --> 01:51:43,680
Speaker 1: for having me. All right, Well, that that does it

1763
01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:47,280
Speaker 1: for us today. You can follow us on the internets

1764
01:51:47,320 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 1: for some reason, um on Twitter, Instagram that happened here

1765
01:51:50,360 --> 01:51:56,120
Speaker 1: pod and Coolsive Media and yeah, go go create a

1766
01:51:56,200 --> 01:51:59,080
Speaker 1: myth that people will believe and travel from out of

1767
01:51:59,120 --> 01:52:02,519
Speaker 1: country to walk over some stairs because that sounds like fun.

1768
01:52:02,560 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: Go to something like that for fun funzies. All right,

1769
01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:25,320
Speaker 1: bye bye, it could happen here. Uh. It being a

1770
01:52:25,439 --> 01:52:28,800
Speaker 1: number of things. Uh. This is the podcast about things

1771
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:31,320
Speaker 1: falling apart and also maybe putting them back together. And

1772
01:52:31,360 --> 01:52:35,080
Speaker 1: assuming there's not a nuclear war in the immediate future,

1773
01:52:35,120 --> 01:52:38,400
Speaker 1: you will probably be hearing this episode sometime in early March.

1774
01:52:38,920 --> 01:52:42,639
Speaker 1: I am Robert Evans, my co hosts as always well

1775
01:52:42,800 --> 01:52:46,160
Speaker 1: as often Chris and Garrison, And that's that's my job

1776
01:52:46,200 --> 01:52:47,840
Speaker 1: for the day. Done. I'm gonna I'm gonna sit back

1777
01:52:47,880 --> 01:52:50,120
Speaker 1: and chill. You guys want to take it from here, Yeah,

1778
01:52:50,160 --> 01:52:52,040
Speaker 1: I'll take it from here. We are doing one of

1779
01:52:52,080 --> 01:52:55,000
Speaker 1: our perennial things fall apart, but also we sort of

1780
01:52:55,040 --> 01:52:59,200
Speaker 1: put it back together again episodes. And joining us today

1781
01:52:59,240 --> 01:53:03,639
Speaker 1: is JAMS from Strange Matter is a new libertarian socialist

1782
01:53:03,720 --> 01:53:07,559
Speaker 1: cooperative magazine. J MC. Great to have you here. Yeah,

1783
01:53:07,640 --> 01:53:11,639
Speaker 1: this is really great. So I guess we should probably

1784
01:53:11,640 --> 01:53:14,879
Speaker 1: explain what the magazine is not, just in of itself,

1785
01:53:14,920 --> 01:53:17,920
Speaker 1: but also because it's a good lead in into um

1786
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:21,400
Speaker 1: um into what we're gonna be talking about. So we

1787
01:53:21,479 --> 01:53:24,400
Speaker 1: basically there's five of us as co editors and we're

1788
01:53:24,400 --> 01:53:27,160
Speaker 1: all equal worker owners in it. It's a magazine called

1789
01:53:27,200 --> 01:53:31,800
Speaker 1: Strange Matters, and the point of it is to explore

1790
01:53:32,080 --> 01:53:35,920
Speaker 1: radical new ideas, not just in terms of politics and economics,

1791
01:53:35,920 --> 01:53:37,839
Speaker 1: which is going to be kind of half the focus

1792
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:40,799
Speaker 1: is trying to figure out like you know, libertarian socialists

1793
01:53:40,800 --> 01:53:42,800
Speaker 1: talk a lot about dual power, which I know you'all

1794
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:45,400
Speaker 1: talk about on the show a lot, talk about building

1795
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:48,559
Speaker 1: independent institutions under the direct democratic control of the working

1796
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:50,760
Speaker 1: class to control real resources and are not the state

1797
01:53:50,840 --> 01:53:53,479
Speaker 1: or capitalist firms. But like we talk a big game,

1798
01:53:53,520 --> 01:53:55,320
Speaker 1: but we actually know how to do that stuff, And

1799
01:53:55,320 --> 01:53:57,200
Speaker 1: do we know how to do stuff like run like

1800
01:53:57,320 --> 01:54:00,280
Speaker 1: you know, a big company as a as a self

1801
01:54:00,280 --> 01:54:02,360
Speaker 1: managed democracy, or do we know how to run a

1802
01:54:02,439 --> 01:54:05,520
Speaker 1: city as a as a radical democracy like rooted neighborhood

1803
01:54:05,520 --> 01:54:07,719
Speaker 1: councils or anything like that. The answer kind of is

1804
01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:10,599
Speaker 1: not really And there's a lot of like um open

1805
01:54:10,720 --> 01:54:14,040
Speaker 1: questions that we don't know yet the answers to, and

1806
01:54:14,080 --> 01:54:16,040
Speaker 1: that very few people are working on those answers. So

1807
01:54:16,080 --> 01:54:21,400
Speaker 1: Strange Matters is UM partly about discovering uh those answers,

1808
01:54:21,439 --> 01:54:23,759
Speaker 1: not because we the editors have the answers, but because

1809
01:54:23,760 --> 01:54:25,760
Speaker 1: we need like some kind of space within which we

1810
01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:29,200
Speaker 1: can bring lots of different people, different life experiences together, uh,

1811
01:54:29,240 --> 01:54:31,759
Speaker 1: in order to talk about the stuff and figure it out.

1812
01:54:32,280 --> 01:54:34,000
Speaker 1: And then the other mission of it is to be

1813
01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:37,200
Speaker 1: a kind of general interest literary intellectual magazine doing the

1814
01:54:37,280 --> 01:54:40,520
Speaker 1: kind of journalism and philosophy and poetry and memoir and

1815
01:54:40,560 --> 01:54:45,680
Speaker 1: stuff like that that uh that uh perhaps gets shut

1816
01:54:45,720 --> 01:54:48,920
Speaker 1: out of capitalist society because it's not commercial, because it's

1817
01:54:48,960 --> 01:54:52,640
Speaker 1: too weird, because it's like, I don't know, historiographical essay

1818
01:54:52,640 --> 01:54:54,520
Speaker 1: about it's been called doon or something like that, you know.

1819
01:54:54,600 --> 01:54:56,200
Speaker 1: And and we think that there should be a place

1820
01:54:56,240 --> 01:54:59,920
Speaker 1: for that, um, just because it brings delight and mean

1821
01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:03,080
Speaker 1: into people's lives, and it's what we're fighting for a

1822
01:55:03,120 --> 01:55:05,560
Speaker 1: more democratic society in order to do. So. That's basically

1823
01:55:05,600 --> 01:55:09,000
Speaker 1: our vibe UM. And the asking question is a collective

1824
01:55:09,120 --> 01:55:13,040
Speaker 1: editorial that we that we collectively drafted and edited, uh,

1825
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:16,760
Speaker 1: talking about our political views in particular and the recent

1826
01:55:16,800 --> 01:55:20,600
Speaker 1: history of libertarian socialism UM. And then asked for me.

1827
01:55:20,840 --> 01:55:23,960
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a writer who has written for a couple

1828
01:55:23,960 --> 01:55:27,560
Speaker 1: of other places like The Point in the Brooklyn rail Um,

1829
01:55:27,800 --> 01:55:30,600
Speaker 1: and I also was involved in the d S as

1830
01:55:30,680 --> 01:55:39,280
Speaker 1: Libertarian Socialist Caucus and also the Yeah yeah, yeah, but

1831
01:55:39,520 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 1: a lot of history there, trauma, you know, some some

1832
01:55:43,880 --> 01:55:47,360
Speaker 1: uh yeah, but any who uh and also the Symbiosis

1833
01:55:47,360 --> 01:55:51,560
Speaker 1: Federation UM, which is a federation across Mexico, the US,

1834
01:55:51,760 --> 01:55:55,200
Speaker 1: and Canada that is trying to put together. It's a

1835
01:55:55,320 --> 01:55:58,280
Speaker 1: it's a confederation of local organizations that are trying to

1836
01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:02,040
Speaker 1: do this kind of direct democracy stuff. Yeah. So I guess, well, okay,

1837
01:56:02,040 --> 01:56:05,400
Speaker 1: so the pandemic isn't I guess the perfect jumping in

1838
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:08,640
Speaker 1: point for this. But I wanna go back and I

1839
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:10,840
Speaker 1: guess getting into the meat of this piece because I

1840
01:56:10,840 --> 01:56:13,080
Speaker 1: think it's very interesting. I wanted to sort of talk

1841
01:56:13,080 --> 01:56:15,840
Speaker 1: about the origins of like what's called sort of neo

1842
01:56:15,880 --> 01:56:21,320
Speaker 1: anarchism and how it's sort of begin to decay after

1843
01:56:22,280 --> 01:56:25,880
Speaker 1: after the collapse of Occupy and after well, I guess

1844
01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:28,040
Speaker 1: the sort the sort of kind of revolutionary arc of

1845
01:56:28,280 --> 01:56:33,560
Speaker 1: the two tens, so basically before you do the decline

1846
01:56:33,840 --> 01:56:35,400
Speaker 1: at least is the way that we wrote it, and

1847
01:56:35,440 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 1: I kind of think that it's the way that I

1848
01:56:37,040 --> 01:56:39,440
Speaker 1: would tell it. Um, you have to kind of do

1849
01:56:39,480 --> 01:56:43,520
Speaker 1: the rise first, right, because like there was this moment

1850
01:56:45,160 --> 01:56:53,080
Speaker 1: from roughly the fall of Soviets in two roughly like

1851
01:56:53,800 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 1: two thousand and even kind of lingering in an afterlife afterwards,

1852
01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:01,040
Speaker 1: where it kind of looked anarchism is going to take

1853
01:57:01,080 --> 01:57:02,880
Speaker 1: over the world. And that's a bit of a joke.

1854
01:57:03,080 --> 01:57:05,720
Speaker 1: But it's also not a joke because in the context

1855
01:57:05,760 --> 01:57:08,320
Speaker 1: of like the radical left, which is of course obviously

1856
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:11,240
Speaker 1: a kind of like you know, dissidents seen in any

1857
01:57:11,240 --> 01:57:16,080
Speaker 1: country where it happens to exist. Um, you know, everything

1858
01:57:16,240 --> 01:57:19,960
Speaker 1: receded in terms of the traditional parties because the fall

1859
01:57:20,040 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 1: of the Soviet style uh Leninists states uh, either through

1860
01:57:24,720 --> 01:57:27,120
Speaker 1: their collapse as in the case of the uss are

1861
01:57:27,960 --> 01:57:31,160
Speaker 1: or in the case of their transition to much more

1862
01:57:31,240 --> 01:57:35,600
Speaker 1: like clearly and obviously like state capitalist uh semi liberalized

1863
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:41,640
Speaker 1: model like in China, like the you you basically had

1864
01:57:41,680 --> 01:57:45,480
Speaker 1: like this total recession, not just in Leninism interestingly, which

1865
01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:47,720
Speaker 1: obviously enough right, like you know, it's basically a global

1866
01:57:47,720 --> 01:57:51,000
Speaker 1: collapse of Leinists style of governments, but also in like

1867
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:55,120
Speaker 1: social democracy. Um, because it's a lot of the I mean,

1868
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of interesting why it's it's unclear why

1869
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:01,600
Speaker 1: it is. Uh, people have different theories, but there you know,

1870
01:58:01,640 --> 01:58:05,240
Speaker 1: people often describe it in in um, you know Fisher's term,

1871
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:09,800
Speaker 1: the writer Mark Fisher capitalist realism. The attitude in the

1872
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:14,200
Speaker 1: nineties was that, uh, you know, there's there's only one

1873
01:58:14,240 --> 01:58:16,800
Speaker 1: world that's possible, and it's the best of all possible worlds,

1874
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:19,400
Speaker 1: and that's the capitalist world where everybody's gonna have McDonald's

1875
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:21,480
Speaker 1: in every country, and two countries that have the same

1876
01:58:21,600 --> 01:58:24,600
Speaker 1: McDonald's are never going to go to war, which we

1877
01:58:24,680 --> 01:58:26,240
Speaker 1: kind of found out the hard way this week that

1878
01:58:26,240 --> 01:58:29,880
Speaker 1: that's not really the case. Well, and if people had

1879
01:58:30,320 --> 01:58:32,720
Speaker 1: paid attention more to other parts of the world, they

1880
01:58:32,720 --> 01:58:34,600
Speaker 1: would know that, like, well, there were civil wars in

1881
01:58:34,600 --> 01:58:36,960
Speaker 1: a bunch of countries that had McDonald's. It didn't stop

1882
01:58:37,000 --> 01:58:42,080
Speaker 1: people from shooting each other, as as the United States

1883
01:58:42,080 --> 01:58:44,360
Speaker 1: should tell you, people will kill each other whether or

1884
01:58:44,400 --> 01:58:47,160
Speaker 1: not they have access to chicken McNuggets. Yeah, you know,

1885
01:58:47,200 --> 01:58:48,720
Speaker 1: I mean I think like that that's that's a period

1886
01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:51,280
Speaker 1: that has it's full of the most wrong anyone has

1887
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:54,240
Speaker 1: ever been. Like you got your frenchis Fukiyama like the

1888
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:58,440
Speaker 1: most wrong person ever You've got. Yeah, You've you've got

1889
01:58:58,480 --> 01:59:02,000
Speaker 1: a lot of serve idealogues, you like, have sort of

1890
01:59:02,000 --> 01:59:05,600
Speaker 1: deluded themselves into thinking this stuff is over and yeah,

1891
01:59:05,600 --> 01:59:07,160
Speaker 1: and I think you're right that that sort of plays

1892
01:59:07,200 --> 01:59:10,320
Speaker 1: into this, you know, into sort of the collapse of

1893
01:59:10,440 --> 01:59:14,640
Speaker 1: of of I guess, the party state left, and then

1894
01:59:14,800 --> 01:59:18,440
Speaker 1: the way in which that, you know, the the alternative

1895
01:59:18,440 --> 01:59:22,360
Speaker 1: to that, I guess becomes neo anarchism, and anarchists practice,

1896
01:59:22,400 --> 01:59:24,560
Speaker 1: even if it's not necessarily ideology with all the groups,

1897
01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:27,200
Speaker 1: kind of seeps its way into the rest of the

1898
01:59:27,200 --> 01:59:32,560
Speaker 1: activist scene. Yeah. So basically the story that we tell

1899
01:59:32,760 --> 01:59:36,360
Speaker 1: is that there's some you know, the Stuffatheast of rebellion

1900
01:59:36,360 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 1: in triggers these uh it's not just that the stuff

1901
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:42,600
Speaker 1: of East is are able to create their autonomous territory

1902
01:59:42,680 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 1: and chap us, but they it triggers this wave uh

1903
01:59:46,680 --> 01:59:49,400
Speaker 1: that UM. We use a term that sometimes it's used

1904
01:59:49,400 --> 01:59:53,200
Speaker 1: in academia called neo anarchism for this. Um. You know,

1905
01:59:53,320 --> 01:59:57,839
Speaker 1: there's an anarchist revival in the nineties, UM around the world,

1906
01:59:57,960 --> 02:00:00,960
Speaker 1: and it's not just people calling themselves anarchists. It's all

1907
02:00:01,000 --> 02:00:05,839
Speaker 1: these movements that were inspired by the libertarian socialist broadly

1908
02:00:05,880 --> 02:00:10,240
Speaker 1: speaking UM Sabathistas UM, adopting kind of similar methods in

1909
02:00:10,280 --> 02:00:14,360
Speaker 1: their local contexts in different countries, fighting against I mean

1910
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:17,120
Speaker 1: a lot of things. Initially it's against like you know,

1911
02:00:17,360 --> 02:00:20,160
Speaker 1: neoliberal trade deals, but it also ends up being against

1912
02:00:20,160 --> 02:00:22,720
Speaker 1: like sweatshops, because that's basically what a lot of outsourcing

1913
02:00:22,840 --> 02:00:25,280
Speaker 1: is is. You know, if if they have unions in

1914
02:00:25,320 --> 02:00:27,680
Speaker 1: this country from a social democratic period, they shut down

1915
02:00:27,680 --> 02:00:30,000
Speaker 1: the factory fire everybody moved it to some place where

1916
02:00:30,440 --> 02:00:32,440
Speaker 1: some dictatorship is going to shoot anybody who tries to

1917
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:35,520
Speaker 1: do a union. Uh, and then that you know that

1918
02:00:35,520 --> 02:00:39,400
Speaker 1: that lowers Uh. Logistics has gotten sophisticated enough by this

1919
02:00:39,440 --> 02:00:41,560
Speaker 1: point that you know, it ends up being cheaper for

1920
02:00:41,560 --> 02:00:43,360
Speaker 1: the company even though they have to transport goods all

1921
02:00:43,400 --> 02:00:45,360
Speaker 1: across the world and do just in time delivering that

1922
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:50,400
Speaker 1: kind of thing. So UM. The a lot of the

1923
02:00:50,400 --> 02:00:54,320
Speaker 1: the the anti globalization movement that sprouted up around the

1924
02:00:54,360 --> 02:00:58,560
Speaker 1: two thousands was like UM, against all these things and

1925
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:02,040
Speaker 1: usually using the kinds of wrecked actions, which is when

1926
02:01:02,080 --> 02:01:04,560
Speaker 1: you act kind of independent of the state and not

1927
02:01:04,640 --> 02:01:08,040
Speaker 1: trying to like, you know, convince politician to do something

1928
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:12,400
Speaker 1: but taking direct action to get your results, your desired result, um,

1929
02:01:12,440 --> 02:01:14,800
Speaker 1: you know, and all this kind of stuff uh that

1930
02:01:14,840 --> 02:01:18,920
Speaker 1: we're at using like direct democratic consensus methods. Uh. In

1931
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:22,480
Speaker 1: the way that they organized stuff, uh, that was that

1932
02:01:22,560 --> 02:01:24,760
Speaker 1: was all basically an artistic And so there was this

1933
02:01:24,800 --> 02:01:29,080
Speaker 1: way in which anarchist methods, anarchist tactics, anarchists like attitudes

1934
02:01:29,120 --> 02:01:33,000
Speaker 1: towards what activism even is, started filtering into all these

1935
02:01:33,040 --> 02:01:34,960
Speaker 1: other movements. And this has been happening a little bit

1936
02:01:35,000 --> 02:01:36,720
Speaker 1: the eighties too. So there was like the anti nuclear

1937
02:01:36,720 --> 02:01:39,640
Speaker 1: movement had a lot of this, the feminist movement had

1938
02:01:39,680 --> 02:01:42,760
Speaker 1: a lot of this. Um, there was a whole um

1939
02:01:43,360 --> 02:01:47,120
Speaker 1: stream of single other ecological movements were actually like pioneered

1940
02:01:47,320 --> 02:01:49,280
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways by anarchists in the nineties,

1941
02:01:49,640 --> 02:01:53,720
Speaker 1: um so, as well as indigenous movements in places like Mexico, Bolivia, etcetera.

1942
02:01:54,000 --> 02:01:57,920
Speaker 1: So the this is the kind of like rise of

1943
02:01:57,960 --> 02:02:00,200
Speaker 1: this neo anarchist movie you that we're talking about, which

1944
02:02:00,200 --> 02:02:04,560
Speaker 1: is not just about anarchists, it's about people who act

1945
02:02:04,600 --> 02:02:08,920
Speaker 1: and think like anarchists without necessarily identifying as it. Yeah,

1946
02:02:09,000 --> 02:02:11,040
Speaker 1: I mean that's the kind of thing that I hope

1947
02:02:11,040 --> 02:02:12,680
Speaker 1: we can kind of more encourage as well in the

1948
02:02:12,720 --> 02:02:18,560
Speaker 1: next few decades, as those typicide ideas can be I want,

1949
02:02:18,600 --> 02:02:20,360
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that we can take these

1950
02:02:20,400 --> 02:02:22,960
Speaker 1: ideas and make them very approachable for people, even if

1951
02:02:22,960 --> 02:02:26,160
Speaker 1: they don't use the terms that we might use. You

1952
02:02:26,200 --> 02:02:31,400
Speaker 1: can still kind of suggest these types of thoughts, and

1953
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:34,800
Speaker 1: this suggests these types of kind of lenses and viewpoints

1954
02:02:35,400 --> 02:02:36,760
Speaker 1: as much as we're about to get to how this

1955
02:02:36,800 --> 02:02:39,960
Speaker 1: sort of goes wrong or fails in some sense, Like,

1956
02:02:40,000 --> 02:02:42,240
Speaker 1: I think that was the strength of this movement was

1957
02:02:42,280 --> 02:02:49,600
Speaker 1: that it was it's tactics really easy to spread, and

1958
02:02:49,840 --> 02:02:51,560
Speaker 1: that led to a lot of people adopting me, led

1959
02:02:51,600 --> 02:02:56,400
Speaker 1: to it sort of becoming this I guess activist consensus

1960
02:02:56,400 --> 02:02:58,760
Speaker 1: that you know, like you using the consensus process. You

1961
02:02:58,760 --> 02:03:01,600
Speaker 1: you know, you have sn organizations, you have you do

1962
02:03:01,680 --> 02:03:04,400
Speaker 1: direct actions, you mobilize people. You don't have these sort

1963
02:03:04,400 --> 02:03:08,400
Speaker 1: of like article like parties. But that yeah, And I

1964
02:03:08,400 --> 02:03:10,560
Speaker 1: think I think the next part of the story that

1965
02:03:10,640 --> 02:03:12,880
Speaker 1: you want to tell us about, I guess how that

1966
02:03:12,920 --> 02:03:18,800
Speaker 1: fell apart and the consequences of that. Basically what ends

1967
02:03:18,920 --> 02:03:24,320
Speaker 1: up happening is that, like there was this moment of

1968
02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:28,879
Speaker 1: our ascent because I would identify myself as being definitely

1969
02:03:28,920 --> 02:03:32,040
Speaker 1: like part of these, uh, the this generalan of you.

1970
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:33,840
Speaker 1: I mean I came, I hopped a board a lot

1971
02:03:33,920 --> 02:03:36,000
Speaker 1: later with like Occupy Wall Street, but a lot of

1972
02:03:36,040 --> 02:03:39,280
Speaker 1: the kind of explosion of movements that happened around the

1973
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:41,880
Speaker 1: world in again not always right. It started with the

1974
02:03:41,880 --> 02:03:44,480
Speaker 1: Arab Spring, which started with somebody seeing themselves on fire

1975
02:03:44,480 --> 02:03:46,919
Speaker 1: in Tunisia and like you know, and then that spreads

1976
02:03:46,960 --> 02:03:50,480
Speaker 1: to um other countries in them the least and um,

1977
02:03:50,600 --> 02:03:53,280
Speaker 1: you know, protests against dictatorships and so on. But it

1978
02:03:53,360 --> 02:03:57,080
Speaker 1: starts getting kind of like transported beyond its initial Middle

1979
02:03:57,120 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 1: Eastern context. And what a lot of people don't know

1980
02:03:59,120 --> 02:04:03,760
Speaker 1: is that the uh, the Occupy Wall Street movement in

1981
02:04:03,760 --> 02:04:07,400
Speaker 1: North America, uh, and like other movements that you know,

1982
02:04:07,440 --> 02:04:09,520
Speaker 1: some of them were called occupy some of them, I'm

1983
02:04:09,520 --> 02:04:11,400
Speaker 1: one of them was my Don in Ukraine as a

1984
02:04:11,400 --> 02:04:14,480
Speaker 1: matter of fact, um, and other like you know, the

1985
02:04:14,640 --> 02:04:19,360
Speaker 1: the Hong Kong, the the the umbrella movements, yeah, the

1986
02:04:19,480 --> 02:04:21,920
Speaker 1: and all these kind of movements that that proceeded from

1987
02:04:21,960 --> 02:04:26,200
Speaker 1: after a lot of them were basically in a single

1988
02:04:26,400 --> 02:04:30,520
Speaker 1: kind of wave, a protracted wave of copycat movements. Uh

1989
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:32,839
Speaker 1: that we're trying to adopt the same kind of tactics

1990
02:04:32,840 --> 02:04:36,880
Speaker 1: of like occupying public squares, uh, declaring them basically autonomous,

1991
02:04:36,920 --> 02:04:39,480
Speaker 1: and doing like direct democracy in those squares, modeling the

1992
02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:43,480
Speaker 1: kind of society that they that people wanted to create. Um,

1993
02:04:43,520 --> 02:04:45,440
Speaker 1: you know, in this moment where it seemed like you

1994
02:04:45,480 --> 02:04:51,200
Speaker 1: could have these direct democratic uh sorts of movements the

1995
02:04:51,200 --> 02:04:53,760
Speaker 1: the end in the US, there's like a direct line

1996
02:04:53,800 --> 02:04:56,360
Speaker 1: of succession from like Occupy Wall Street through to like

1997
02:04:56,400 --> 02:04:59,840
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter through to like the anti pipeline and

1998
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:03,000
Speaker 1: Aginist protest. There's a lot of like shared movement experience,

1999
02:05:03,200 --> 02:05:05,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the same people showing up to it

2000
02:05:05,240 --> 02:05:08,840
Speaker 1: or teaching the next generation UM in those movements. And

2001
02:05:08,840 --> 02:05:11,760
Speaker 1: I think this is something I mean, uh, it's difficult

2002
02:05:11,760 --> 02:05:13,960
Speaker 1: to find like sources on this, but I mean, y'all

2003
02:05:13,960 --> 02:05:16,120
Speaker 1: are involved in social movements. I think that that's like

2004
02:05:16,120 --> 02:05:19,680
Speaker 1: a rough that's roughly a description of of what's happened,

2005
02:05:19,720 --> 02:05:24,560
Speaker 1: right unless unless we're crazy. Yeah, I think, you know,

2006
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:28,360
Speaker 1: I think I guess what you call the last wave

2007
02:05:28,440 --> 02:05:33,440
Speaker 1: that is occupied ice in Yeah, yeah, you know, like

2008
02:05:33,480 --> 02:05:35,320
Speaker 1: I remember like that was the sort of mix of

2009
02:05:35,400 --> 02:05:38,760
Speaker 1: I guess two crowds. One is you know, I mean,

2010
02:05:38,840 --> 02:05:41,120
Speaker 1: like I I remember, it was a bunch of you know,

2011
02:05:41,120 --> 02:05:43,600
Speaker 1: people who'd been in occupy and then also it was

2012
02:05:43,680 --> 02:05:47,080
Speaker 1: a lot of people who radicalized essentially about Trump. Yeah,

2013
02:05:47,080 --> 02:05:50,320
Speaker 1: there was there was a pretty big new wave of people, yeah,

2014
02:05:50,360 --> 02:05:53,880
Speaker 1: around around just sixteen and that you know, And gess

2015
02:05:53,880 --> 02:05:55,640
Speaker 1: I guess the other thing that that that's going on

2016
02:05:56,120 --> 02:06:02,960
Speaker 1: through this period is the the the ascension of consension

2017
02:06:03,040 --> 02:06:05,960
Speaker 1: of the right and the return also not just of

2018
02:06:06,640 --> 02:06:09,200
Speaker 1: you know, not just the sort of the fascist right,

2019
02:06:09,320 --> 02:06:13,400
Speaker 1: but of Leninism and social democracy as well. Yeah. Um

2020
02:06:14,160 --> 02:06:17,280
Speaker 1: lappened around like when Bernie Sanders was getting more popular. Yeah. Yeah,

2021
02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:19,000
Speaker 1: And I think I think, I think there's there's you know,

2022
02:06:19,040 --> 02:06:20,640
Speaker 1: there's a couple of there's like two threats here. There

2023
02:06:20,640 --> 02:06:24,200
Speaker 1: there's the sort of Bernie Sanders thread, and then there's

2024
02:06:24,760 --> 02:06:26,960
Speaker 1: you know, the the rise of the rise of the Tankies,

2025
02:06:27,040 --> 02:06:29,720
Speaker 1: which has to do with Syria and has to do

2026
02:06:29,800 --> 02:06:34,000
Speaker 1: with sort of this backlash against the Just and eleven

2027
02:06:34,040 --> 02:06:36,800
Speaker 1: revolutions that you know, like some some of that backlash

2028
02:06:36,840 --> 02:06:40,400
Speaker 1: turns into like just you know, like aired ones, like

2029
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:44,920
Speaker 1: hard rightobbing. There's never like not a right wing but

2030
02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:47,120
Speaker 1: like air to wants turn into just like fire bombing

2031
02:06:47,160 --> 02:06:53,960
Speaker 1: cities and um and literally barrel bombing, you know, the

2032
02:06:54,000 --> 02:06:59,240
Speaker 1: peaceful protests stuff. Um can overthrow governments if the government

2033
02:06:59,360 --> 02:07:03,280
Speaker 1: is not willing to bomb and shoot people who gather

2034
02:07:03,360 --> 02:07:06,080
Speaker 1: on mass in the central square because they're afraid of

2035
02:07:06,120 --> 02:07:08,040
Speaker 1: what the world's response would be if they did start

2036
02:07:08,120 --> 02:07:10,720
Speaker 1: doing that. But you know when Bashar Alasad did that

2037
02:07:10,760 --> 02:07:14,600
Speaker 1: in Syria against the democratic opposition movements, UM, you know,

2038
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:18,640
Speaker 1: that basically sent the signal nothing I mean nothing happened

2039
02:07:18,640 --> 02:07:21,160
Speaker 1: to us side, right, So that basically sent the signal

2040
02:07:21,240 --> 02:07:25,360
Speaker 1: that like oh he had a stress of years. But yeah, yeah,

2041
02:07:25,480 --> 02:07:28,960
Speaker 1: right right, yeah, like like you can you can just

2042
02:07:29,240 --> 02:07:32,440
Speaker 1: shoot people and bomb them and like it. And that

2043
02:07:32,840 --> 02:07:36,560
Speaker 1: basically defanged the kind of central tactic that a lot

2044
02:07:36,600 --> 02:07:38,160
Speaker 1: of these movements were trying to do, which is to

2045
02:07:38,200 --> 02:07:41,760
Speaker 1: have like large numbers of people do nonviolent civil disobedience

2046
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:45,080
Speaker 1: and then through those like direct actions, cultivate this culture

2047
02:07:45,120 --> 02:07:48,560
Speaker 1: of like direct democracy in the hopes that, um, you know,

2048
02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:50,680
Speaker 1: the assemblies that are created in that space could in

2049
02:07:50,720 --> 02:07:52,960
Speaker 1: some way become the germ of the organs that could

2050
02:07:53,040 --> 02:07:54,840
Speaker 1: run society, or at least that's like when it's taken

2051
02:07:54,840 --> 02:07:57,680
Speaker 1: to its logical conclusion. Because usually people who are involved

2052
02:07:57,680 --> 02:07:59,360
Speaker 1: in this, they get involved in it, they think the

2053
02:07:59,360 --> 02:08:02,560
Speaker 1: assembly stuff is really cool, they start learning more about it,

2054
02:08:02,640 --> 02:08:05,400
Speaker 1: they get radicalized by being in the assembly because like

2055
02:08:05,440 --> 02:08:07,600
Speaker 1: when you're in a direct democratic assembly and you're actually

2056
02:08:07,600 --> 02:08:10,120
Speaker 1: making the decisions like together, and then you come to

2057
02:08:10,160 --> 02:08:12,680
Speaker 1: an agreement and you execute the decision, you start asking

2058
02:08:12,680 --> 02:08:16,240
Speaker 1: yourself like why can't we do everything like this? Um?

2059
02:08:16,720 --> 02:08:20,040
Speaker 1: And then um, you know that that's what directs a

2060
02:08:20,080 --> 02:08:23,560
Speaker 1: lot of people in this kind of anarchistic direction. But yeah,

2061
02:08:23,640 --> 02:08:25,600
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why these movements starts to decline

2062
02:08:25,720 --> 02:08:30,280
Speaker 1: is because they get smashed, um. The but I think

2063
02:08:30,320 --> 02:08:35,160
Speaker 1: that there's always this other thing going on, which and

2064
02:08:35,200 --> 02:08:38,400
Speaker 1: I wonder how y'all felt about this, like reading it,

2065
02:08:38,560 --> 02:08:44,480
Speaker 1: like you know, there's there was this kind of both

2066
02:08:44,600 --> 02:08:48,800
Speaker 1: like an external critique at first from people like you know, Buskar, Sencrove,

2067
02:08:48,920 --> 02:08:51,720
Speaker 1: Jacobin and things like that, but then also like this

2068
02:08:52,200 --> 02:08:55,440
Speaker 1: increasingly over the years in the last half of the

2069
02:08:56,280 --> 02:09:00,640
Speaker 1: internal critiques of anarchism coming from anarchists themselves, of our

2070
02:09:00,720 --> 02:09:04,160
Speaker 1: people in this general kind of mil you libertarian socialism

2071
02:09:04,160 --> 02:09:10,280
Speaker 1: talking about how like anarchists didn't have solutions to the

2072
02:09:10,320 --> 02:09:13,720
Speaker 1: most pressing crises in the twenty one century. Like, if you, like,

2073
02:09:13,760 --> 02:09:15,800
Speaker 1: if you guys had to say, I know it's like

2074
02:09:15,920 --> 02:09:18,120
Speaker 1: kind of pretentious, but like, what is the most pressing

2075
02:09:18,120 --> 02:09:20,320
Speaker 1: crisis of the century? What are like the top three

2076
02:09:20,560 --> 02:09:22,600
Speaker 1: just off the top of your heads without thinking? What

2077
02:09:22,640 --> 02:09:24,320
Speaker 1: would you list if you have to list three two

2078
02:09:24,440 --> 02:09:29,879
Speaker 1: or three separate things? Climate change, creeping authoritarianism, and rampant

2079
02:09:30,040 --> 02:09:34,640
Speaker 1: disinformation about basic facts of reality. Sweet, okay, so let's

2080
02:09:34,640 --> 02:09:39,560
Speaker 1: tackle each one of those, right, Like what's what's an

2081
02:09:39,560 --> 02:09:42,600
Speaker 1: anarchist got to say about climate change? Well, okay, disrupt

2082
02:09:42,640 --> 02:09:46,800
Speaker 1: the pipelines, like you know, do uh, Like, you can't

2083
02:09:46,800 --> 02:09:48,920
Speaker 1: have infinite growth on a finite planet, so you have

2084
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:51,440
Speaker 1: to have like, you know, we we have all the slogans, right,

2085
02:09:51,480 --> 02:09:53,080
Speaker 1: I mean we've all heard them like a million times.

2086
02:09:53,200 --> 02:09:56,800
Speaker 1: Yeah you have the diagnoses of the problem. But yeah, yeah,

2087
02:09:56,800 --> 02:09:59,680
Speaker 1: but then like, okay, so how are we going to

2088
02:10:00,360 --> 02:10:02,640
Speaker 1: like you know, I guess we're gonna build some co

2089
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:07,000
Speaker 1: ops and then the co ops are gonna democratized production

2090
02:10:07,320 --> 02:10:10,360
Speaker 1: and then we can do d growth somehow, but like

2091
02:10:10,760 --> 02:10:14,360
Speaker 1: also disrupting existing production. But there's like a missing step here, right,

2092
02:10:14,400 --> 02:10:16,400
Speaker 1: because like, you know, the reason why we have all

2093
02:10:16,440 --> 02:10:19,320
Speaker 1: this production in certain ways, because the entire economy depends

2094
02:10:19,360 --> 02:10:22,760
Speaker 1: on it's been set up that way. Uh So you

2095
02:10:22,840 --> 02:10:25,080
Speaker 1: implied in the idea that we're gonna do de growth

2096
02:10:25,120 --> 02:10:27,839
Speaker 1: somehows that we need some way of constructing a different economy,

2097
02:10:28,200 --> 02:10:30,360
Speaker 1: and how do you construct a different economy right through

2098
02:10:30,520 --> 02:10:33,320
Speaker 1: some kind of planning? So really the question is like

2099
02:10:33,560 --> 02:10:37,440
Speaker 1: how do you do economic planning? Uh? Second one, um

2100
02:10:37,480 --> 02:10:39,800
Speaker 1: I gin a skip creeping authoritarianism for now because that's

2101
02:10:39,840 --> 02:10:42,280
Speaker 1: actually like feeding into the more the ending of the essay.

2102
02:10:42,320 --> 02:10:45,880
Speaker 1: But the but the other one, right disinformation? Another great question, right,

2103
02:10:46,200 --> 02:10:50,640
Speaker 1: like what do you do with social media? Like? Okay, again,

2104
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:53,840
Speaker 1: anarchists talked in general a lot about like, okay, we're

2105
02:10:53,840 --> 02:10:57,760
Speaker 1: gonna democratize all the companies because we're democratizing everything. We're

2106
02:10:57,760 --> 02:11:00,600
Speaker 1: democratizing neighborhoods or democratizing cities. So it's kind of the

2107
02:11:00,640 --> 02:11:05,360
Speaker 1: same thing, turning everything into like a radical direct democracy. Okay,

2108
02:11:05,400 --> 02:11:08,640
Speaker 1: But if we're going to have social media, first of all,

2109
02:11:08,680 --> 02:11:11,040
Speaker 1: should we like was it a mistake to invent a

2110
02:11:11,120 --> 02:11:14,879
Speaker 1: centralized system instead of the more decentralized internet that created

2111
02:11:14,960 --> 02:11:17,320
Speaker 1: that existed before social media, Right, that's kind of a

2112
02:11:17,560 --> 02:11:21,280
Speaker 1: interesting question. But then assuming that we do, how do

2113
02:11:21,360 --> 02:11:23,960
Speaker 1: we restructure it? Not just in terms of how it's managed,

2114
02:11:24,000 --> 02:11:26,400
Speaker 1: but like, okay, we have the democracy of Facebook or whatever,

2115
02:11:26,680 --> 02:11:29,520
Speaker 1: and let's say that we're the workers at Facebook, what

2116
02:11:29,560 --> 02:11:32,280
Speaker 1: do we do, like, how do we structure it so

2117
02:11:32,320 --> 02:11:36,800
Speaker 1: that it's not a giant misinformation engine? Right? Like once,

2118
02:11:36,960 --> 02:11:39,680
Speaker 1: once you actually have like the responsibility and the power

2119
02:11:39,680 --> 02:11:41,280
Speaker 1: of being in the saddle, which is what we spend

2120
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:43,560
Speaker 1: so much of our time kind of just trying to do,

2121
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:45,560
Speaker 1: you have to actually make decisions about what to do.

2122
02:11:45,840 --> 02:11:48,440
Speaker 1: And honestly, there aren't that many. I mean, what do

2123
02:11:48,480 --> 02:11:50,680
Speaker 1: you what do you do with with the within with

2124
02:11:50,720 --> 02:11:53,920
Speaker 1: the utility like that? Like, for example, who ought to

2125
02:11:53,960 --> 02:11:55,800
Speaker 1: be in control of the utility? Like that? Is it

2126
02:11:55,840 --> 02:11:59,120
Speaker 1: really just the workers of Facebook? Aren't all the people

2127
02:11:59,120 --> 02:12:01,280
Speaker 1: who are users it don't they have a right to

2128
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:04,920
Speaker 1: be making decisions about it too? And is it just

2129
02:12:04,960 --> 02:12:08,040
Speaker 1: an American institution just because it's an American LLC or

2130
02:12:08,120 --> 02:12:10,240
Speaker 1: is it like a global institution because everybody on the

2131
02:12:10,240 --> 02:12:15,200
Speaker 1: planets on it um is there? You know, are other

2132
02:12:15,280 --> 02:12:17,760
Speaker 1: ways that it could be reconfigured, like fundamentally in terms

2133
02:12:17,800 --> 02:12:20,960
Speaker 1: of how users use it. That would change the experience

2134
02:12:20,960 --> 02:12:23,680
Speaker 1: in some way to actually make it, uh, make you

2135
02:12:23,800 --> 02:12:25,960
Speaker 1: less liable to misinformation. But on the other hand, if

2136
02:12:26,000 --> 02:12:29,520
Speaker 1: you try to manipulate people in order to um, you know,

2137
02:12:29,640 --> 02:12:34,480
Speaker 1: not see something that's going to be misinformation, isn't that well,

2138
02:12:34,760 --> 02:12:38,960
Speaker 1: you know, like censorship or or or some other thing

2139
02:12:39,000 --> 02:12:42,920
Speaker 1: that we generally would oppose, right, like the tool of

2140
02:12:43,040 --> 02:12:46,760
Speaker 1: centralized social control. So they like, these are really deep questions,

2141
02:12:46,880 --> 02:12:50,720
Speaker 1: and again this is generally a kind of silence, and

2142
02:12:50,760 --> 02:12:52,760
Speaker 1: of course you know in that case, there's silence from

2143
02:12:52,760 --> 02:12:55,520
Speaker 1: the social democrats too, and there's silence from the Leninist

2144
02:12:55,560 --> 02:12:57,360
Speaker 1: I mean, well, the Lennis just kind of fantasized about

2145
02:12:57,360 --> 02:13:00,640
Speaker 1: turning Facebook into the tool of the central party state

2146
02:13:00,720 --> 02:13:04,080
Speaker 1: uses in order to crush dissent forever or whatever. But

2147
02:13:04,200 --> 02:13:06,920
Speaker 1: you know, social democrats are like list nationalized Facebook, and

2148
02:13:06,960 --> 02:13:10,880
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, yeah, sure we could, we could

2149
02:13:10,960 --> 02:13:12,680
Speaker 1: do that. And then you know, the n s A

2150
02:13:12,960 --> 02:13:16,560
Speaker 1: owns on Facebook. I'm sure that that's a that's a

2151
02:13:16,560 --> 02:13:20,360
Speaker 1: better scenario. Yeah, I mean I tend to think somewhat

2152
02:13:20,400 --> 02:13:23,880
Speaker 1: differently about what it means to have an anarchist solution

2153
02:13:23,880 --> 02:13:26,520
Speaker 1: to those problems. Like, for example, I don't I don't

2154
02:13:26,520 --> 02:13:29,680
Speaker 1: see anarchists or social democrats or leninists having any kind

2155
02:13:29,720 --> 02:13:34,160
Speaker 1: of stopping climate change solution um because I don't I

2156
02:13:34,200 --> 02:13:40,480
Speaker 1: don't realistically see the organizing potential um capable of actually

2157
02:13:40,760 --> 02:13:44,440
Speaker 1: stopping what's going on in any kind of reasonable time frame.

2158
02:13:44,480 --> 02:13:46,960
Speaker 1: And I certainly don't think that the existing you know,

2159
02:13:47,200 --> 02:13:50,840
Speaker 1: neoliberal structures or the authoritarian structures that exist in you know,

2160
02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:53,720
Speaker 1: other countries or in this country are going to stop

2161
02:13:53,720 --> 02:13:56,600
Speaker 1: it either. So when I think about solutions to climate

2162
02:13:56,680 --> 02:13:59,480
Speaker 1: change from an anarchist perspective, I think about how can

2163
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:04,040
Speaker 1: anarchist to organizing help people deal with the consequences of

2164
02:14:04,080 --> 02:14:08,280
Speaker 1: climate change, and I see I tend to see the

2165
02:14:08,360 --> 02:14:12,280
Speaker 1: potential for actually like mitigating climate change coming more from

2166
02:14:13,200 --> 02:14:17,640
Speaker 1: there's as the consequences of this become more dire to people,

2167
02:14:18,000 --> 02:14:21,440
Speaker 1: if anarchists are better, are good at providing relief and

2168
02:14:21,480 --> 02:14:24,560
Speaker 1: helping people and organizing through that, and eventually there's some

2169
02:14:24,600 --> 02:14:27,480
Speaker 1: potential to actually get people organized to stop the causes

2170
02:14:27,520 --> 02:14:31,880
Speaker 1: of the problem. But um, I just don't. I'm not

2171
02:14:31,960 --> 02:14:34,960
Speaker 1: an optimist of about our ability to stop the worst

2172
02:14:34,960 --> 02:14:38,760
Speaker 1: of it at this point. Um, especially not after the

2173
02:14:38,760 --> 02:14:40,480
Speaker 1: most recent I p c C report. And I guess

2174
02:14:40,480 --> 02:14:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm kind of in the same boat when it comes

2175
02:14:42,680 --> 02:14:47,840
Speaker 1: to disinformation. UM. I And this is not just like anarchists.

2176
02:14:47,920 --> 02:14:51,720
Speaker 1: I feel like lack, as you've stated, at a like

2177
02:14:51,880 --> 02:14:53,760
Speaker 1: a good idea about like what do we do with Facebook,

2178
02:14:53,800 --> 02:14:55,200
Speaker 1: what we do with you do, what do we do

2179
02:14:55,280 --> 02:14:57,480
Speaker 1: with the way all of these things are set up

2180
02:14:57,480 --> 02:15:00,920
Speaker 1: in the harms that they do at scale. Um, Nobody

2181
02:15:01,240 --> 02:15:04,120
Speaker 1: and I include the people currently in charge, has any

2182
02:15:04,800 --> 02:15:07,720
Speaker 1: real good ideas for that because they haven't. Like I've

2183
02:15:07,720 --> 02:15:09,760
Speaker 1: been working in this space for a very long time,

2184
02:15:09,840 --> 02:15:12,080
Speaker 1: I've I've spent a lot of time talking with and

2185
02:15:13,160 --> 02:15:15,640
Speaker 1: debating with a lot of the folks who are leading

2186
02:15:15,680 --> 02:15:19,480
Speaker 1: minds kind of in the fight against disinformation, and I

2187
02:15:19,520 --> 02:15:23,720
Speaker 1: just don't feel like there's any sort of solution that

2188
02:15:23,840 --> 02:15:26,720
Speaker 1: is an immediate term solution because so many the problem

2189
02:15:26,760 --> 02:15:29,120
Speaker 1: is so advanced as it is, so as I guess

2190
02:15:29,160 --> 02:15:32,800
Speaker 1: that's kind of like where I land on a lot

2191
02:15:32,800 --> 02:15:35,240
Speaker 1: of this stuff is we certainly need to be thinking

2192
02:15:35,280 --> 02:15:40,040
Speaker 1: about solutions, but I kind of like, I think it's

2193
02:15:40,120 --> 02:15:42,240
Speaker 1: less likely that there's going to be like you were

2194
02:15:42,280 --> 02:15:45,040
Speaker 1: you were saying the kind of debate is between is

2195
02:15:45,040 --> 02:15:47,520
Speaker 1: there some way of like reforming or fixing making Facebook

2196
02:15:47,520 --> 02:15:49,440
Speaker 1: more democratic, or is it just we need to decide

2197
02:15:49,440 --> 02:15:51,680
Speaker 1: that maybe we don't have some of this stuff. And

2198
02:15:51,720 --> 02:15:54,360
Speaker 1: I tend to land towards that that, Like, well, I

2199
02:15:54,440 --> 02:15:57,520
Speaker 1: think the solution is going to be maybe maybe Facebook's

2200
02:15:57,520 --> 02:15:59,920
Speaker 1: a bad idea, maybe we should maybe we shouldn't have.

2201
02:16:00,680 --> 02:16:03,480
Speaker 1: There's aspects of it that are necessary, obviously, and I

2202
02:16:03,480 --> 02:16:07,280
Speaker 1: think aspects of things like Telegram and Twitter that are useful,

2203
02:16:07,320 --> 02:16:13,960
Speaker 1: But um, I think the they're also fundamentally tied to

2204
02:16:14,120 --> 02:16:17,280
Speaker 1: the algorithms that drive them, which is also what drives

2205
02:16:17,280 --> 02:16:19,560
Speaker 1: so much of the toxic aspects that I think if

2206
02:16:19,560 --> 02:16:24,400
Speaker 1: you're divorcing the medium from the algorithm, you're talking about

2207
02:16:24,440 --> 02:16:28,000
Speaker 1: something that is very different and longer than media. It's

2208
02:16:28,080 --> 02:16:30,960
Speaker 1: no longer than media. It's it's so radically different that

2209
02:16:31,040 --> 02:16:33,320
Speaker 1: it's just it's it's not even useful to compare them.

2210
02:16:33,360 --> 02:16:36,279
Speaker 1: It's like it's like it's like comparing Discord to Facebook.

2211
02:16:36,320 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 1: It's like they're not they don't operate the same way.

2212
02:16:39,400 --> 02:16:42,760
Speaker 1: That's the Yeah, that's exactly kind of where I where

2213
02:16:42,760 --> 02:16:46,120
Speaker 1: I tend to be on on that, And I know

2214
02:16:46,200 --> 02:16:51,800
Speaker 1: that's not like I I to the extent that like, uh,

2215
02:16:51,840 --> 02:16:54,640
Speaker 1: that's pessimistic. I guess I am kind of pessimistic about

2216
02:16:54,640 --> 02:16:58,879
Speaker 1: anarchisms ability to stop the worst of things that's happening.

2217
02:16:59,160 --> 02:17:02,360
Speaker 1: Where I kind of look at myself as an optimistic

2218
02:17:02,520 --> 02:17:06,520
Speaker 1: anarchist is in the I believe anarchism offers solutions when

2219
02:17:06,560 --> 02:17:08,600
Speaker 1: these things go as badly as they're going to do

2220
02:17:08,680 --> 02:17:11,440
Speaker 1: in a way that you know, the present systems or

2221
02:17:11,720 --> 02:17:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, more authoritarian systems that people propose can't solve

2222
02:17:16,520 --> 02:17:19,520
Speaker 1: the worst consequences of these problems as as well. That's

2223
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:23,280
Speaker 1: that's kind of where I feel like it is can

2224
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:25,440
Speaker 1: feel a lot simpler to default to like the dual

2225
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:29,280
Speaker 1: power framework of a lot of these things, because otherwise

2226
02:17:29,600 --> 02:17:31,880
Speaker 1: the problems are so complex that you cannot approach them

2227
02:17:31,920 --> 02:17:34,520
Speaker 1: from from from every angle, because you really do need

2228
02:17:34,560 --> 02:17:37,640
Speaker 1: to simplify and condense them and collapse them into something

2229
02:17:37,640 --> 02:17:39,760
Speaker 1: that is more simplified, which often results in like a

2230
02:17:39,879 --> 02:17:44,480
Speaker 1: dual power kind of work for what you actually start doing. Yeah,

2231
02:17:44,520 --> 02:17:46,760
Speaker 1: and I think you have to. I think if you're

2232
02:17:47,600 --> 02:17:50,879
Speaker 1: an insurrectionist, if you're a revolutionary, whether it you're an

2233
02:17:50,879 --> 02:17:54,959
Speaker 1: anarchist or or you know, a Leninist or whatever, you

2234
02:17:55,000 --> 02:17:57,959
Speaker 1: have to be looking at what's actually happening in Ukraine

2235
02:17:58,040 --> 02:18:02,080
Speaker 1: right now and recognize that. All right, Well, to what

2236
02:18:02,200 --> 02:18:03,760
Speaker 1: extent do you think you're going to be able to

2237
02:18:03,840 --> 02:18:07,000
Speaker 1: organize people in such a way that allows them to

2238
02:18:07,040 --> 02:18:10,600
Speaker 1: deal with thermobaric weapons? You know? In what way are

2239
02:18:10,640 --> 02:18:13,760
Speaker 1: you going to organize people that allows them to effectively

2240
02:18:13,840 --> 02:18:18,000
Speaker 1: resist cluster musician munitions? Um? And I think that when

2241
02:18:18,080 --> 02:18:19,800
Speaker 1: you kind of look at it that way, which is

2242
02:18:19,840 --> 02:18:22,800
Speaker 1: what it would take to overthrow any of the large

2243
02:18:22,800 --> 02:18:25,920
Speaker 1: hegemonic powers in the world right now, a much more

2244
02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:30,000
Speaker 1: realistic set of solutions is all right, well, let's work

2245
02:18:30,120 --> 02:18:35,200
Speaker 1: on building power by building organizations and communities that are

2246
02:18:35,240 --> 02:18:38,480
Speaker 1: capable of taking care of themselves in the holes that

2247
02:18:38,600 --> 02:18:42,560
Speaker 1: these powers are increasingly going to be experiencing because because

2248
02:18:42,600 --> 02:18:45,720
Speaker 1: they too are crumbling. And that's much smarter than being like,

2249
02:18:45,760 --> 02:18:47,880
Speaker 1: all right, well, I'm gonna try to get a bunch

2250
02:18:47,920 --> 02:18:50,320
Speaker 1: of my friends with rifles and and arm up a

2251
02:18:50,360 --> 02:18:53,160
Speaker 1: couple of drones and and go up against you know,

2252
02:18:53,240 --> 02:18:55,920
Speaker 1: people who have access to m l R s, you know,

2253
02:18:56,000 --> 02:18:59,800
Speaker 1: weapons systems and whatnot. Yeah. No, I think that that's

2254
02:18:59,800 --> 02:19:03,800
Speaker 1: a really great point. Um. I the way that I

2255
02:19:03,800 --> 02:19:08,119
Speaker 1: would think about it is the starting with the big

2256
02:19:08,120 --> 02:19:10,880
Speaker 1: picture problems is a bit misleading because, as you said,

2257
02:19:11,320 --> 02:19:14,360
Speaker 1: like nobody, it's quite like that nobody has solutions to

2258
02:19:14,400 --> 02:19:20,360
Speaker 1: these problems, certainly the social Democrats. Yeah, you know, and

2259
02:19:20,680 --> 02:19:22,240
Speaker 1: I say this as somebody who's like half a social

2260
02:19:22,280 --> 02:19:24,640
Speaker 1: Democrat by temperament. Um, it would be really nice if

2261
02:19:24,640 --> 02:19:26,440
Speaker 1: we like did it a little social democratic government and

2262
02:19:26,480 --> 02:19:29,360
Speaker 1: they swooped in and you know, did like new deal stuff.

2263
02:19:29,400 --> 02:19:31,280
Speaker 1: I like new deal stuff. I like w p A

2264
02:19:31,320 --> 02:19:34,720
Speaker 1: stuff as much as the next uh. You know, um

2265
02:19:34,959 --> 02:19:40,160
Speaker 1: person who likes arts programs and infrastructure development. Well, you know,

2266
02:19:40,280 --> 02:19:44,360
Speaker 1: some infrastructure development, not others. Right, the war the war

2267
02:19:44,480 --> 02:19:47,840
Speaker 1: complex we can do a little without. But you know,

2268
02:19:48,080 --> 02:19:52,600
Speaker 1: the thing about it is those big problems. You're right,

2269
02:19:52,600 --> 02:19:53,920
Speaker 1: it looks like there's not going to be like a

2270
02:19:53,920 --> 02:19:56,560
Speaker 1: big solution, uh, and that we're going to kind of

2271
02:19:56,600 --> 02:19:58,920
Speaker 1: have to cope with the consequences of of it, at

2272
02:19:59,000 --> 02:20:04,200
Speaker 1: least at first. Yeah, even coping this is this is

2273
02:20:04,240 --> 02:20:06,160
Speaker 1: kind of where I think the real kind of substance

2274
02:20:06,440 --> 02:20:09,760
Speaker 1: of of of the problem that libertarian socialist are facing

2275
02:20:09,840 --> 02:20:13,760
Speaker 1: right now. Even coping would require a greater level of

2276
02:20:13,840 --> 02:20:17,240
Speaker 1: organization than we have proven able to muster up to now.

2277
02:20:17,680 --> 02:20:21,120
Speaker 1: Not because the methods that we choose don't work, because

2278
02:20:21,120 --> 02:20:23,480
Speaker 1: in fact, as you point out and as I actually

2279
02:20:23,640 --> 02:20:27,080
Speaker 1: really want to forcefully argue, and because because we do

2280
02:20:27,160 --> 02:20:30,000
Speaker 1: in the end of the essay, like authoritarian methods don't

2281
02:20:30,040 --> 02:20:32,280
Speaker 1: work and can't work for a lot of the specific

2282
02:20:32,280 --> 02:20:35,560
Speaker 1: problems that we face. Uh, And history shows that very definitively.

2283
02:20:35,959 --> 02:20:42,240
Speaker 1: But um, there is also a serious way in which

2284
02:20:42,360 --> 02:20:47,560
Speaker 1: even kind of developing these like you know, local highly

2285
02:20:47,680 --> 02:20:50,840
Speaker 1: like you know, rooted in a community, uh like direct

2286
02:20:50,840 --> 02:20:55,200
Speaker 1: democratic institutions that control real resources, scaling that up to

2287
02:20:55,240 --> 02:20:58,200
Speaker 1: the point where it actually could start replacing some of

2288
02:20:58,240 --> 02:21:03,000
Speaker 1: the gaps left behind by uh you know, uh states

2289
02:21:03,000 --> 02:21:05,920
Speaker 1: and capitalist firms that are too dysfunctional or too focused

2290
02:21:05,920 --> 02:21:08,040
Speaker 1: on their own goals to to to to meet those

2291
02:21:08,080 --> 02:21:11,520
Speaker 1: needs that would actually require us to be able, for example,

2292
02:21:11,800 --> 02:21:16,560
Speaker 1: to know how to build up a cooperative sector in

2293
02:21:16,600 --> 02:21:19,800
Speaker 1: a city, or how to kind of like network the

2294
02:21:19,840 --> 02:21:23,600
Speaker 1: tennis unions that already exist you know, across different uh

2295
02:21:23,840 --> 02:21:27,039
Speaker 1: you know, regions, maybe even across like a continent, and

2296
02:21:27,080 --> 02:21:30,680
Speaker 1: then construct like the way in which they self manage

2297
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:34,800
Speaker 1: each other or or not each other self managed together

2298
02:21:34,920 --> 02:21:37,160
Speaker 1: the you know, the the larger group or it would

2299
02:21:37,160 --> 02:21:38,800
Speaker 1: require and you know, there's a lot of people working

2300
02:21:38,800 --> 02:21:42,800
Speaker 1: on these problems, but sometimes there is a kind of

2301
02:21:42,840 --> 02:21:45,280
Speaker 1: like you know, you'll you'll see this like obstacle in

2302
02:21:45,320 --> 02:21:47,760
Speaker 1: the road because for example, like what do you do

2303
02:21:48,200 --> 02:21:52,560
Speaker 1: when the it might not even be the state properly speaking, right,

2304
02:21:52,560 --> 02:21:55,080
Speaker 1: it might be like a posse that's funded by some

2305
02:21:55,240 --> 02:21:59,280
Speaker 1: rich billionaire asshole who's got like his uh, you know,

2306
02:21:59,360 --> 02:22:01,280
Speaker 1: his notion to some people are just better than others

2307
02:22:01,280 --> 02:22:03,520
Speaker 1: and that you should institute the dictatorship of the tech

2308
02:22:03,560 --> 02:22:07,280
Speaker 1: bros um, you know. And then that billionaire's funding a

2309
02:22:07,320 --> 02:22:09,480
Speaker 1: bunch of people who have got now like you know,

2310
02:22:09,800 --> 02:22:13,480
Speaker 1: some industrial access to industrial infrastructure, and they don't like

2311
02:22:13,560 --> 02:22:15,760
Speaker 1: the fact that you're doing your d I Y like

2312
02:22:15,920 --> 02:22:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, commune or whatever stuff in there on their turf.

2313
02:22:19,640 --> 02:22:21,920
Speaker 1: So how do you fight back against that? I mean,

2314
02:22:21,959 --> 02:22:24,120
Speaker 1: some of it you can fight back against that kind

2315
02:22:24,120 --> 02:22:26,240
Speaker 1: of our current level of capacity, but some of it

2316
02:22:26,240 --> 02:22:28,280
Speaker 1: does kind of require us to start thinking like, well,

2317
02:22:28,760 --> 02:22:31,720
Speaker 1: how do you how do you build up financial independence?

2318
02:22:32,120 --> 02:22:33,480
Speaker 1: What like, how do you build up the kind of

2319
02:22:33,480 --> 02:22:35,360
Speaker 1: independence where it's like if we get kicked off of

2320
02:22:35,360 --> 02:22:38,800
Speaker 1: the capitalist uh social media, for example, which is a

2321
02:22:38,800 --> 02:22:41,640
Speaker 1: great deal of what we use for fundraising, what kind

2322
02:22:41,640 --> 02:22:45,320
Speaker 1: of institutions could we create that would be like alternatives, um,

2323
02:22:45,400 --> 02:22:48,119
Speaker 1: that are not like the ones that the Nazis created

2324
02:22:48,160 --> 02:22:50,640
Speaker 1: when there was a purge of some of them that

2325
02:22:50,800 --> 02:22:53,480
Speaker 1: gab like highly dysfunctional, like you know, it didn't even

2326
02:22:53,560 --> 02:22:55,680
Speaker 1: work for them. Uh not that I mean, I'm happy

2327
02:22:55,680 --> 02:22:57,480
Speaker 1: about that, but like you know, my point is, like

2328
02:22:57,760 --> 02:22:59,920
Speaker 1: the same thing could happen to us, So what would

2329
02:23:00,040 --> 02:23:03,280
Speaker 1: you do? Um the like there there are all these

2330
02:23:03,360 --> 02:23:07,000
Speaker 1: kinds of things that are more little picture questions in

2331
02:23:07,000 --> 02:23:10,039
Speaker 1: a way, but they scale up relatively quickly to at

2332
02:23:10,120 --> 02:23:12,640
Speaker 1: least like medium sized questions where we need this kind

2333
02:23:12,680 --> 02:23:17,560
Speaker 1: of like um, these these because because part of what

2334
02:23:17,600 --> 02:23:20,120
Speaker 1: it is is also that like it's not that these

2335
02:23:20,200 --> 02:23:24,720
Speaker 1: questions are impossible, it's that they're kind of neglected. And

2336
02:23:24,800 --> 02:23:29,880
Speaker 1: there's um there, there's these uh the thinkers like Christian Williams,

2337
02:23:29,920 --> 02:23:31,840
Speaker 1: who is an anarchist from the Pacific Northwest, who wrote

2338
02:23:31,840 --> 02:23:35,520
Speaker 1: a pamphlet about this called Wither Anarchism, And there was

2339
02:23:35,560 --> 02:23:40,879
Speaker 1: another pamphlet, uh an Essay and CounterPunch by a person

2340
02:23:40,959 --> 02:23:44,320
Speaker 1: named Gabrielle Coon who's an autonomous Marxist basically like a

2341
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:49,360
Speaker 1: libertarian Marxist Marxist anarchist type um called What Happened to

2342
02:23:49,360 --> 02:23:51,320
Speaker 1: the Anarchist Century? And both of those essays, which I

2343
02:23:51,360 --> 02:23:54,320
Speaker 1: highly recommend that people read, they may they make points

2344
02:23:54,680 --> 02:23:59,000
Speaker 1: basically like this, you know, like where where the focus

2345
02:23:59,040 --> 02:24:01,600
Speaker 1: on how to construct those institutions and the nitty gritty

2346
02:24:01,640 --> 02:24:03,680
Speaker 1: of how to do that has kind of receded from

2347
02:24:04,040 --> 02:24:08,720
Speaker 1: anarchism um as it's actually practiced. Uh In like so

2348
02:24:08,760 --> 02:24:12,000
Speaker 1: there's like a rhetoric of revolutionary transformation, but not always

2349
02:24:12,040 --> 02:24:14,920
Speaker 1: the attention to the nitty gritty of how you actually

2350
02:24:14,959 --> 02:24:19,320
Speaker 1: can like build resilient institutions that actually like carry that

2351
02:24:19,400 --> 02:24:22,400
Speaker 1: through which you know, a hundred years ago people talking

2352
02:24:22,400 --> 02:24:24,920
Speaker 1: about like the one big union and the general strike.

2353
02:24:25,240 --> 02:24:28,480
Speaker 1: But that's kind of like, um, well, a it didn't

2354
02:24:28,520 --> 02:24:30,000
Speaker 1: work in exactly the way that they were thinking it.

2355
02:24:30,080 --> 02:24:32,920
Speaker 1: What even in the most successful revolutions like in Spain

2356
02:24:33,160 --> 02:24:37,200
Speaker 1: and b it was also like the there's there's there's

2357
02:24:37,200 --> 02:24:40,200
Speaker 1: a certain way in which our tensions are focused on

2358
02:24:40,360 --> 02:24:42,360
Speaker 1: other things. And it's not that those things are bad,

2359
02:24:42,520 --> 02:24:45,240
Speaker 1: it's just that like there's been this kind of neglect

2360
02:24:45,440 --> 02:24:49,240
Speaker 1: of the question of large scale organization and how you

2361
02:24:49,320 --> 02:24:52,920
Speaker 1: do coordination, like you know, in order to tackle problems

2362
02:24:52,920 --> 02:24:54,600
Speaker 1: that are kind of like at the scale that that

2363
02:24:54,680 --> 02:24:57,560
Speaker 1: I was talking about before um And so basically the

2364
02:24:57,640 --> 02:25:00,440
Speaker 1: argument of the essay is that in the absence of that,

2365
02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:05,840
Speaker 1: like for the socialist movement that emerged after turned away

2366
02:25:06,200 --> 02:25:09,160
Speaker 1: from neo anarchist, I'm thinking basically that it had no solutions,

2367
02:25:09,160 --> 02:25:11,720
Speaker 1: which I don't think it's true either, but it's like,

2368
02:25:11,840 --> 02:25:14,360
Speaker 1: you know, like rather it was true in the moment,

2369
02:25:14,400 --> 02:25:16,959
Speaker 1: but it doesn't have to be true, but it was true,

2370
02:25:17,000 --> 02:25:18,840
Speaker 1: but enough people thought that it was that they turned

2371
02:25:18,879 --> 02:25:21,720
Speaker 1: to like the social democratic route. But with the failure

2372
02:25:21,760 --> 02:25:24,560
Speaker 1: of Corbin and Bernie that kind of burned a lot

2373
02:25:24,600 --> 02:25:27,320
Speaker 1: of people out too, and a lot of what is

2374
02:25:27,360 --> 02:25:30,160
Speaker 1: seems like it's coming up now, and I'm wondering, I

2375
02:25:30,160 --> 02:25:33,000
Speaker 1: wonder what you guys think of this. Like a lot

2376
02:25:33,080 --> 02:25:35,720
Speaker 1: of the people that we see showing up in movement

2377
02:25:35,760 --> 02:25:38,760
Speaker 1: spaces who we see kind of like getting politically activated

2378
02:25:38,760 --> 02:25:41,039
Speaker 1: for the first time or whatever, a lot of those

2379
02:25:41,040 --> 02:25:44,959
Speaker 1: people are really interested in Leninism and on specifically, because

2380
02:25:45,000 --> 02:25:46,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know how true that is.

2381
02:25:46,800 --> 02:25:48,680
Speaker 1: That's at least that that's that's that that that part

2382
02:25:48,720 --> 02:25:50,680
Speaker 1: is not true at least at least at least here

2383
02:25:50,680 --> 02:25:56,959
Speaker 1: in Portland. Plant no other no other part of the

2384
02:25:56,959 --> 02:26:00,600
Speaker 1: country like Portland, other than maybe Eugene. Like okay, that's

2385
02:26:00,640 --> 02:26:04,560
Speaker 1: that's fair. That's a little bit too. Like Portland. Portland

2386
02:26:04,640 --> 02:26:06,600
Speaker 1: is a big enough anarchist city that there are entire

2387
02:26:07,120 --> 02:26:10,760
Speaker 1: decade long like like into anarchist wors that no one

2388
02:26:10,800 --> 02:26:12,920
Speaker 1: else in the US has ever heard of, that are

2389
02:26:12,959 --> 02:26:15,920
Speaker 1: like the most important thing that's ever happened in Portland's

2390
02:26:15,920 --> 02:26:19,879
Speaker 1: Oh boy, welcome to the Green Red. Let me tell you, Chris,

2391
02:26:20,000 --> 02:26:22,840
Speaker 1: you have just piste off sixty people who could not

2392
02:26:23,000 --> 02:26:26,680
Speaker 1: explain to you if you gave them a year, could

2393
02:26:26,720 --> 02:26:31,680
Speaker 1: not explain to you why they're angry. And I mean

2394
02:26:31,680 --> 02:26:34,400
Speaker 1: to be to be fair, like I I am an

2395
02:26:34,400 --> 02:26:36,280
Speaker 1: anarchist in Chicago. When the first time I introduced too

2396
02:26:36,280 --> 02:26:38,240
Speaker 1: of my Twitter mutual together, they almost got a fist fight.

2397
02:26:38,280 --> 02:26:43,560
Speaker 1: So like, yeah, that's that completely scans Even with like

2398
02:26:43,680 --> 02:26:46,520
Speaker 1: ds A stuff, I feel like there's there was at

2399
02:26:46,560 --> 02:26:48,680
Speaker 1: least was a trend a little bit to stay away

2400
02:26:48,840 --> 02:26:53,640
Speaker 1: from some of the more Russia communist kind of like

2401
02:26:53,760 --> 02:26:56,760
Speaker 1: types of aesthetics and ideas because it is a turn

2402
02:26:56,800 --> 02:27:00,240
Speaker 1: off for so many people, and it does know just

2403
02:27:00,320 --> 02:27:04,200
Speaker 1: and it has like encouraging forefront a form of authoritarianism

2404
02:27:04,240 --> 02:27:08,720
Speaker 1: that maybe is not great. Yeah, I don't know, Like

2405
02:27:08,760 --> 02:27:12,160
Speaker 1: I've seen sort of both friends in Walka. So I

2406
02:27:12,240 --> 02:27:17,600
Speaker 1: think the last like a year has been very different

2407
02:27:17,600 --> 02:27:20,320
Speaker 1: than I think the previous five. I've seen it on Twitter,

2408
02:27:20,560 --> 02:27:23,480
Speaker 1: but I don't know how much it expands into as

2409
02:27:23,640 --> 02:27:26,520
Speaker 1: I think. I think it's like I saw things happens

2410
02:27:26,520 --> 02:27:28,440
Speaker 1: in the d s A is that the Leninists essentially

2411
02:27:28,480 --> 02:27:32,040
Speaker 1: took over the International Committee and they had this kind

2412
02:27:32,040 --> 02:27:34,120
Speaker 1: of delicious divisional label inside the d s A where

2413
02:27:34,160 --> 02:27:36,000
Speaker 1: like you have like you have a part of the

2414
02:27:36,080 --> 02:27:38,400
Speaker 1: d s A that's essentially a social democratic machine, and

2415
02:27:38,400 --> 02:27:40,200
Speaker 1: then you have the International Committee, which is which is

2416
02:27:40,240 --> 02:27:44,320
Speaker 1: the foreign policy wing essentially run by by essentially run

2417
02:27:44,320 --> 02:27:46,480
Speaker 1: by by the Leninists. And I think, I don't know,

2418
02:27:46,560 --> 02:27:47,960
Speaker 1: I think I saw it there. And the other thing

2419
02:27:47,959 --> 02:27:50,360
Speaker 1: I think I saw a lot of that I've seen

2420
02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:52,560
Speaker 1: even from people who are ordinarily not Stalinist, is what

2421
02:27:52,720 --> 02:27:54,200
Speaker 1: you know, part of what was talking about this is

2422
02:27:54,320 --> 02:27:57,240
Speaker 1: the sort of like climate Stalinism or like climate wow

2423
02:27:57,320 --> 02:28:02,680
Speaker 1: stuff like that. That is a huge problem that you know,

2424
02:28:03,000 --> 02:28:05,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think part of it also

2425
02:28:05,400 --> 02:28:07,200
Speaker 1: just has to do with the fact that people don't

2426
02:28:08,640 --> 02:28:11,560
Speaker 1: like Okay, so like we we have actually existing uh

2427
02:28:12,000 --> 02:28:14,560
Speaker 1: climate Leninism, like we have it. It's it's it's it's

2428
02:28:14,600 --> 02:28:18,840
Speaker 1: it's China, like the CCP changed, it's literally changed. State

2429
02:28:18,879 --> 02:28:22,720
Speaker 1: ideology in in in the mid two thousand tends, as

2430
02:28:22,879 --> 02:28:24,800
Speaker 1: you know, as an attempt to deal to deal with

2431
02:28:24,879 --> 02:28:27,640
Speaker 1: with with with pollution climate change. It did nothing, Like

2432
02:28:27,680 --> 02:28:30,240
Speaker 1: they pressed every price. It doesn't it didn't like, it

2433
02:28:30,280 --> 02:28:32,640
Speaker 1: didn't work. Yeah, yeah, I mean they did corbon markets,

2434
02:28:32,680 --> 02:28:35,200
Speaker 1: they did. They literally just banned coal and entire provinces

2435
02:28:35,240 --> 02:28:38,360
Speaker 1: and it didn't work. They they changed your contratvaluations, I

2436
02:28:38,600 --> 02:28:44,640
Speaker 1: I people. Yeah, Like La lays this out specifically with

2437
02:28:44,720 --> 02:28:48,119
Speaker 1: China to an excruciating degree, like it like in detail.

2438
02:28:48,320 --> 02:28:51,040
Speaker 1: If you're really interested in this type of like climate

2439
02:28:51,120 --> 02:28:53,800
Speaker 1: left authoritarianism. They call it climate moun in the book,

2440
02:28:53,800 --> 02:28:56,080
Speaker 1: but you can call it climate climate Leninism, you can

2441
02:28:56,120 --> 02:28:59,480
Speaker 1: call it whatever. But they lay out how it could

2442
02:28:59,520 --> 02:29:02,480
Speaker 1: work and how use cases of it have not worked.

2443
02:29:03,040 --> 02:29:05,640
Speaker 1: Um to a pretty pretty intense degree. If you're interested

2444
02:29:05,680 --> 02:29:07,640
Speaker 1: in that, I would recommend reading the book Climate. Leviathan

2445
02:29:07,760 --> 02:29:13,640
Speaker 1: definitely influenced a large portion of the writing for this show. Yeah,

2446
02:29:13,720 --> 02:29:16,039
Speaker 1: and I mean to your point, I don't think that

2447
02:29:16,080 --> 02:29:18,560
Speaker 1: this is the only trend I do. I agree with

2448
02:29:18,600 --> 02:29:22,720
Speaker 1: you that out of like the conjuncture, there was this

2449
02:29:22,920 --> 02:29:25,959
Speaker 1: um I think that a lot of the more like

2450
02:29:26,080 --> 02:29:29,960
Speaker 1: establishment reformist aspects of the movement were discredited and that

2451
02:29:30,000 --> 02:29:32,720
Speaker 1: pushed people in different radical directions, like one of which

2452
02:29:32,800 --> 02:29:35,680
Speaker 1: very much is anarchism and libertarian socialism. I am seeing

2453
02:29:35,680 --> 02:29:38,200
Speaker 1: a lot more faces that are interested in in in

2454
02:29:38,240 --> 02:29:41,360
Speaker 1: those questions for sure. Uh. And that's kind of counter

2455
02:29:41,440 --> 02:29:43,360
Speaker 1: to the trend that I was describing from the last

2456
02:29:43,360 --> 02:29:45,600
Speaker 1: like five years of like, you know, people becoming more

2457
02:29:45,600 --> 02:29:49,400
Speaker 1: disinterested because of the real or perceived lack of solutions. However,

2458
02:29:50,080 --> 02:29:52,240
Speaker 1: I do think that it's important, and this is kind

2459
02:29:52,240 --> 02:29:55,039
Speaker 1: of following on Chris's Climate Leninism point, to understand that

2460
02:29:55,040 --> 02:29:58,120
Speaker 1: there's at least a counter trend where a lot of

2461
02:29:58,120 --> 02:30:01,400
Speaker 1: people are have not only moved away from libertarian socialism,

2462
02:30:01,600 --> 02:30:03,680
Speaker 1: have not only moved but they've also moved away from

2463
02:30:03,720 --> 02:30:07,840
Speaker 1: democratic socialism. And if you follow that pattern, which is

2464
02:30:07,879 --> 02:30:10,200
Speaker 1: a pattern that I at least have seen within the

2465
02:30:10,280 --> 02:30:13,320
Speaker 1: d s A, within various trade unions, in a lot

2466
02:30:13,360 --> 02:30:16,840
Speaker 1: of among a lot of like intelligencia type people like journalists, professors,

2467
02:30:16,879 --> 02:30:21,360
Speaker 1: blah blah, you see a very common set of arguments.

2468
02:30:21,440 --> 02:30:23,760
Speaker 1: And I think it's very clear that as the century

2469
02:30:23,800 --> 02:30:26,600
Speaker 1: proceeds and the crises get worse and start killing like

2470
02:30:26,640 --> 02:30:29,040
Speaker 1: even larger numbers of people than they already are, we're

2471
02:30:29,040 --> 02:30:32,720
Speaker 1: going to see this argument a lot more. Um and

2472
02:30:32,720 --> 02:30:35,280
Speaker 1: and the argument is something like this. I mean, there's

2473
02:30:35,280 --> 02:30:38,280
Speaker 1: a quote from a tweet. Uh And and you know,

2474
02:30:38,360 --> 02:30:42,680
Speaker 1: one could argue that the tweet doesn't matter, but you

2475
02:30:42,720 --> 02:30:46,600
Speaker 1: are naive if you think this is the tweet climate

2476
02:30:46,920 --> 02:30:48,840
Speaker 1: You are naive if you think climate change can ever

2477
02:30:48,879 --> 02:30:53,160
Speaker 1: be solved without an authoritarian government at this point. That's

2478
02:30:53,240 --> 02:30:55,800
Speaker 1: and that's that's the whole thing. So it's a it's

2479
02:30:55,800 --> 02:30:59,320
Speaker 1: a nasty little tweet because it's ambiguous, right, it has

2480
02:30:59,360 --> 02:31:01,680
Speaker 1: this like shocking and scandalous effects. You know, we need

2481
02:31:01,680 --> 02:31:05,480
Speaker 1: authoritarianism to to to solve climate change. The scandalous you know,

2482
02:31:06,080 --> 02:31:08,800
Speaker 1: bougois or whatever. But then it's like okay, wait, but

2483
02:31:09,280 --> 02:31:11,320
Speaker 1: what do you mean by authoritarian? Am I just being

2484
02:31:11,400 --> 02:31:17,040
Speaker 1: hysterical reactor. It's the same as saying you're naive if

2485
02:31:17,160 --> 02:31:20,640
Speaker 1: you think that, um, climate change can be solved without

2486
02:31:21,400 --> 02:31:24,760
Speaker 1: nuclear power, or climate change can be solved without really

2487
02:31:24,760 --> 02:31:28,880
Speaker 1: big hammers, Like we have authoritarian governments, we have nuclear power,

2488
02:31:28,959 --> 02:31:31,039
Speaker 1: we have really big hammers, and climate change does not

2489
02:31:31,120 --> 02:31:33,200
Speaker 1: be solved been solved. Is it possible that any of

2490
02:31:33,240 --> 02:31:35,840
Speaker 1: those things might be a part of a theoretical solution

2491
02:31:35,879 --> 02:31:40,160
Speaker 1: that may happen someday, Yes, but it hasn't. And there's like,

2492
02:31:40,440 --> 02:31:43,640
Speaker 1: if you're trying to say that authoritarian governments are better

2493
02:31:43,760 --> 02:31:47,680
Speaker 1: at dealing with climate change than the governments that currently

2494
02:31:47,680 --> 02:31:50,600
Speaker 1: dominate Number one, hell of a lot of authoritarian governments

2495
02:31:50,600 --> 02:31:53,640
Speaker 1: are responsible for our current situation are climate change. Number

2496
02:31:53,640 --> 02:31:57,000
Speaker 1: two the Soviet Union, which I suspect most of these

2497
02:31:57,040 --> 02:32:00,440
Speaker 1: people see as a guiding light. Horrible for the vironment,

2498
02:32:00,600 --> 02:32:04,039
Speaker 1: turned the largest body of water in Eurasia into a

2499
02:32:04,160 --> 02:32:09,000
Speaker 1: poison lake. Yes, right, not not not good at the environment,

2500
02:32:09,160 --> 02:32:12,280
Speaker 1: you know. And here's here's what's interesting about the thing.

2501
02:32:12,320 --> 02:32:15,119
Speaker 1: To me. The other thing that it's doing is kind

2502
02:32:15,160 --> 02:32:18,840
Speaker 1: of signaling that it's like patently ridiculous to oppose this

2503
02:32:18,879 --> 02:32:23,879
Speaker 1: idea without specifying what the idea is like and like

2504
02:32:23,920 --> 02:32:26,520
Speaker 1: in other words, authoritarianism like but like, I mean, let's

2505
02:32:26,600 --> 02:32:30,920
Speaker 1: let's be blunt right, what they're implying as a Leninist

2506
02:32:31,120 --> 02:32:33,680
Speaker 1: is the one party state, the secret police, press censorship,

2507
02:32:33,680 --> 02:32:37,160
Speaker 1: in the command economy. So does that help you fight

2508
02:32:37,160 --> 02:32:39,680
Speaker 1: climate cheese? That's actually an interesting and a kind of

2509
02:32:39,720 --> 02:32:42,600
Speaker 1: like you know, distant five thousand foot view, you know,

2510
02:32:42,680 --> 02:32:45,680
Speaker 1: from the God's eye view or whatever, like, uh, the

2511
02:32:45,959 --> 02:32:49,000
Speaker 1: that's an interesting technical question. Do these institutions actually help

2512
02:32:49,080 --> 02:32:51,080
Speaker 1: or hinder a response? But we're not even having that

2513
02:32:51,080 --> 02:32:54,560
Speaker 1: conversation because instead it's this kind of underhanded attempt to

2514
02:32:54,600 --> 02:32:57,280
Speaker 1: get you to think that. So again, does a tweet matter? Well,

2515
02:32:57,600 --> 02:32:59,840
Speaker 1: I think a tweet matters if it comes from a

2516
02:33:00,000 --> 02:33:02,160
Speaker 1: member of the National Political Committee of the d s A,

2517
02:33:03,040 --> 02:33:05,560
Speaker 1: because at least ostensibly if d s A is, which

2518
02:33:05,600 --> 02:33:08,800
Speaker 1: is who the person who did that tweet? Because at

2519
02:33:08,840 --> 02:33:10,959
Speaker 1: least ostensibly, if d s A is a mass movement,

2520
02:33:11,000 --> 02:33:13,920
Speaker 1: as it purports to be the mass movement of socialists

2521
02:33:13,920 --> 02:33:16,720
Speaker 1: in the US, and you know, and and the National

2522
02:33:16,760 --> 02:33:20,000
Speaker 1: Political Committee is ostensibly the leadership of the d s

2523
02:33:20,200 --> 02:33:23,440
Speaker 1: which I personally don't believe, but that's certainly how they

2524
02:33:23,480 --> 02:33:27,760
Speaker 1: think of themselves. Um. Then this indicates that the largest

2525
02:33:27,840 --> 02:33:30,800
Speaker 1: most important socialist mass movement in the US, at least

2526
02:33:30,879 --> 02:33:35,480
Speaker 1: self branded UH, has people in its leadership who believe

2527
02:33:35,680 --> 02:33:39,600
Speaker 1: that the secret police might help in addressing climate change.

2528
02:33:39,760 --> 02:33:42,680
Speaker 1: That's an interesting thing and it's also very disturbing. And

2529
02:33:42,680 --> 02:33:47,039
Speaker 1: the thing is this, this person is not actually like important,

2530
02:33:47,120 --> 02:33:50,720
Speaker 1: He's a symptom because this is something that's happening across

2531
02:33:50,800 --> 02:33:54,360
Speaker 1: the board. And a more intellectually serious version of this

2532
02:33:54,480 --> 02:33:59,560
Speaker 1: argument was put forward by the Marxist intellectual and historian

2533
02:34:00,080 --> 02:34:03,720
Speaker 1: um a professor of human ecology called Andreas mom And

2534
02:34:03,760 --> 02:34:05,960
Speaker 1: people who are really into like Mars Nerds stuff will

2535
02:34:06,000 --> 02:34:09,880
Speaker 1: probably have heard, Yeah, what a very good book called

2536
02:34:09,879 --> 02:34:13,039
Speaker 1: Fossil Capital. Everything he's written after Fossil Capital is a disaster.

2537
02:34:14,760 --> 02:34:18,560
Speaker 1: I like some of the sabotage. It's it's I mean,

2538
02:34:18,600 --> 02:34:22,879
Speaker 1: it's a little romantic and impractical. He wrote an ethical

2539
02:34:22,920 --> 02:34:25,880
Speaker 1: discourse instead of a thing about like the risk of

2540
02:34:25,959 --> 02:34:30,800
Speaker 1: eco sabotage, which is the actual important part, also the

2541
02:34:30,840 --> 02:34:35,000
Speaker 1: degree to which it can matter because eco sabotage. There's

2542
02:34:35,000 --> 02:34:37,840
Speaker 1: this idea on the left that like what we need

2543
02:34:37,879 --> 02:34:40,760
Speaker 1: to do is be targeting fossil fuel infrastructure. And again

2544
02:34:40,879 --> 02:34:42,920
Speaker 1: it's like what it's It's like what that ds A

2545
02:34:43,040 --> 02:34:47,119
Speaker 1: dude said, Like, yeah, that could theoretically be a part

2546
02:34:47,240 --> 02:34:51,240
Speaker 1: of but also process. If it's like nine dudes who

2547
02:34:51,320 --> 02:34:53,440
Speaker 1: do it and then they go to prison or get shot,

2548
02:34:53,800 --> 02:34:57,000
Speaker 1: well that doesn't really fix climate change. I think the book,

2549
02:34:57,360 --> 02:35:00,160
Speaker 1: the book A Ministry with the Future really lays out

2550
02:35:00,240 --> 02:35:03,040
Speaker 1: all the all kind of like the best case scenario

2551
02:35:03,600 --> 02:35:05,080
Speaker 1: for all these types of things and how they can

2552
02:35:05,120 --> 02:35:08,959
Speaker 1: work together to overall trend in this direction. Because yeah,

2553
02:35:09,080 --> 02:35:12,120
Speaker 1: that type of like eco sabotage in conjunction with other

2554
02:35:12,160 --> 02:35:15,240
Speaker 1: like political effects can be impactful on what things happen,

2555
02:35:15,560 --> 02:35:19,520
Speaker 1: but it's won't necessarily be you know, it's not it's

2556
02:35:19,560 --> 02:35:21,240
Speaker 1: not as simple as we would like it to be,

2557
02:35:21,240 --> 02:35:24,920
Speaker 1: because yeah, it's it turns out a complex world has

2558
02:35:24,920 --> 02:35:28,520
Speaker 1: complex consequences and complex and I think I think this

2559
02:35:28,600 --> 02:35:30,080
Speaker 1: is you know, the trend that Mom was on, the

2560
02:35:30,080 --> 02:35:32,080
Speaker 1: trend on that you know, there's there's a big environmental

2561
02:35:32,080 --> 02:35:35,800
Speaker 1: authoritarian like thing among among liberals. This is a huge thing.

2562
02:35:35,879 --> 02:35:38,160
Speaker 1: In political science was a big thing, and in ecological

2563
02:35:38,200 --> 02:35:41,160
Speaker 1: studies that was essentially making a similar argument to to

2564
02:35:41,280 --> 02:35:42,920
Speaker 1: what I'm almost making this like, well, okay, you need

2565
02:35:43,040 --> 02:35:47,720
Speaker 1: some kind of air quotes vague authoritarianism to deal to

2566
02:35:48,000 --> 02:35:54,360
Speaker 1: climate change, and you know, it's it's it's it's basically

2567
02:35:54,360 --> 02:35:57,440
Speaker 1: this this attempt. There's like these people have have seen

2568
02:35:57,520 --> 02:36:00,600
Speaker 1: climate change, but they have no act solution to it,

2569
02:36:00,600 --> 02:36:02,879
Speaker 1: and so they wave their hands and pretend that like

2570
02:36:02,959 --> 02:36:04,760
Speaker 1: this like you know, the state is going to descend

2571
02:36:04,760 --> 02:36:07,720
Speaker 1: from this guy and save them, and it's not. And

2572
02:36:07,760 --> 02:36:11,160
Speaker 1: I think that's you know, I think I think we're

2573
02:36:11,200 --> 02:36:15,720
Speaker 1: we're sort of I don't know, I think as we

2574
02:36:15,879 --> 02:36:17,360
Speaker 1: just I guess kind of wrap this up because we

2575
02:36:17,879 --> 02:36:21,520
Speaker 1: unfortunately they're running out of time. But you know, this

2576
02:36:21,640 --> 02:36:24,320
Speaker 1: like this exact moment like these like few weeks are

2577
02:36:24,400 --> 02:36:26,800
Speaker 1: this moment of incredible like rupture on the left right,

2578
02:36:26,800 --> 02:36:28,360
Speaker 1: because we we have we've had we've had in some

2579
02:36:28,360 --> 02:36:31,000
Speaker 1: way social democrats be discredited by the fact that like

2580
02:36:31,120 --> 02:36:33,720
Speaker 1: Corbin and Sanders both lost, right, their political project has

2581
02:36:33,720 --> 02:36:37,520
Speaker 1: been discredited. Um, we've had a serious sort of anexist failures.

2582
02:36:37,520 --> 02:36:39,680
Speaker 1: But then you know, and in the last couple of weeks, right,

2583
02:36:39,720 --> 02:36:41,600
Speaker 1: it was all of the sort of big state like

2584
02:36:41,640 --> 02:36:44,920
Speaker 1: authoritarian people like tied themselves through a bunch of imperialists,

2585
02:36:45,320 --> 02:36:48,720
Speaker 1: and you know, May staked their whole entire politics off

2586
02:36:48,720 --> 02:36:51,280
Speaker 1: of them being the anti imperialist class. And then you

2587
02:36:51,320 --> 02:36:53,600
Speaker 1: know the state who's like a bunch of their press

2588
02:36:53,680 --> 02:36:56,520
Speaker 1: people like literally work for right and who who they've

2589
02:36:56,520 --> 02:36:59,879
Speaker 1: been arguing like is the counter imperialist powers does imperialism?

2590
02:37:00,080 --> 02:37:03,520
Speaker 1: And so like, Yeah, I think we have this moment

2591
02:37:03,680 --> 02:37:08,240
Speaker 1: where everything is in chaos, in which we have to

2592
02:37:08,280 --> 02:37:11,879
Speaker 1: be the ones that that that have solutions or have

2593
02:37:12,200 --> 02:37:14,360
Speaker 1: or have the tools to build them. And I think

2594
02:37:14,360 --> 02:37:17,800
Speaker 1: that's why that's why this project is important, because that's

2595
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:22,080
Speaker 1: that's something that we need in this exact moment. Yeah,

2596
02:37:22,520 --> 02:37:27,200
Speaker 1: I think there's a tremendous value in being humble about

2597
02:37:27,240 --> 02:37:30,560
Speaker 1: seeking out solutions to these questions and not doing what

2598
02:37:30,680 --> 02:37:32,520
Speaker 1: so many do on the left and pretend that their

2599
02:37:32,560 --> 02:37:35,760
Speaker 1: tendency has an absolute answer, because all we have is theories.

2600
02:37:35,800 --> 02:37:37,600
Speaker 1: And the reason I know that to a point of

2601
02:37:37,600 --> 02:37:39,560
Speaker 1: certainty is that no one has solved any of these

2602
02:37:39,560 --> 02:37:44,080
Speaker 1: problems yet absolutely, And and so there is a tremendous

2603
02:37:44,120 --> 02:37:46,480
Speaker 1: degree of humility that people need to have in terms

2604
02:37:46,480 --> 02:37:48,920
Speaker 1: of like, all right, well we are attempting to arrive

2605
02:37:49,240 --> 02:37:53,119
Speaker 1: at the conclusions that can lead us to a better world,

2606
02:37:53,160 --> 02:37:57,000
Speaker 1: as opposed to we are trying to force through this

2607
02:37:57,080 --> 02:37:59,920
Speaker 1: thing that we know will work. Um, because you don't

2608
02:38:00,040 --> 02:38:02,280
Speaker 1: you know, if you're a Marxist Leninist and you think

2609
02:38:02,320 --> 02:38:04,959
Speaker 1: that we need climate MAU, you don't know that that

2610
02:38:05,000 --> 02:38:07,640
Speaker 1: will work because it hasn't yet. And if you're an

2611
02:38:07,640 --> 02:38:11,840
Speaker 1: anarchist who thinks the solution is bombing as many oil

2612
02:38:11,879 --> 02:38:14,039
Speaker 1: refineries as you possibly can, well, you don't know that

2613
02:38:14,080 --> 02:38:15,760
Speaker 1: you're ever going to get enough people on board for

2614
02:38:15,800 --> 02:38:20,000
Speaker 1: that to mean anything. Um. And I think that there's

2615
02:38:20,560 --> 02:38:23,240
Speaker 1: the conversations that we need to be having. I think

2616
02:38:23,280 --> 02:38:25,879
Speaker 1: it's it's important to see them as conversations as opposed

2617
02:38:25,920 --> 02:38:29,840
Speaker 1: to polemics aimed at just getting people in line behind

2618
02:38:30,000 --> 02:38:33,880
Speaker 1: this shining vision of a clear set of steps. Um.

2619
02:38:33,920 --> 02:38:35,959
Speaker 1: It's important to envision the end goal. I say that

2620
02:38:36,000 --> 02:38:38,240
Speaker 1: a lot. You know, we need to be looking and

2621
02:38:38,240 --> 02:38:41,800
Speaker 1: and accepting the possibility of a better future, but it's

2622
02:38:41,800 --> 02:38:44,240
Speaker 1: important not to be dogmatic about the road to get

2623
02:38:44,240 --> 02:38:47,080
Speaker 1: there because nobody, nobody really has a clear idea of

2624
02:38:47,120 --> 02:38:52,280
Speaker 1: what that looks like. Yeah, So the piece ends up

2625
02:38:52,360 --> 02:38:54,119
Speaker 1: and if you want to see the ending of it.

2626
02:38:54,120 --> 02:38:56,720
Speaker 1: It'll it'll be up in um in sometime in the

2627
02:38:56,760 --> 02:38:59,440
Speaker 1: next couple of weeks. But the basic gist of where

2628
02:38:59,440 --> 02:39:03,520
Speaker 1: it goes is precisely to the practical question, right, instead

2629
02:39:03,520 --> 02:39:08,920
Speaker 1: of like making these like polemical arguments that are rooted

2630
02:39:09,000 --> 02:39:11,600
Speaker 1: more in like kind of like what tribe you've decided

2631
02:39:11,640 --> 02:39:14,000
Speaker 1: to identify with within the broad family of socialism than

2632
02:39:14,120 --> 02:39:16,280
Speaker 1: in like actually trying to like solve problems for the

2633
02:39:16,280 --> 02:39:19,880
Speaker 1: people around you, right, or help contribute to the solutions.

2634
02:39:19,920 --> 02:39:23,520
Speaker 1: Like it's actually what we want to ask is like,

2635
02:39:24,000 --> 02:39:28,880
Speaker 1: if we have like the giant ecological crisis, Uh, how

2636
02:39:28,920 --> 02:39:31,120
Speaker 1: do you how do you actually do it? Is it

2637
02:39:31,120 --> 02:39:33,080
Speaker 1: by trying to force people from the top down to

2638
02:39:33,160 --> 02:39:35,640
Speaker 1: do it as Um under his mom kind of draws

2639
02:39:35,680 --> 02:39:38,680
Speaker 1: on the failed uh policies of war communism as and

2640
02:39:38,720 --> 02:39:42,640
Speaker 1: inspiration for that. Or is it potentially by having like

2641
02:39:42,680 --> 02:39:46,600
Speaker 1: democrat democratized institutions that incentivize people with carrots instead of sticks,

2642
02:39:46,600 --> 02:39:49,680
Speaker 1: like Naomi Klein basically uncovered in want of her journalism

2643
02:39:49,680 --> 02:39:52,280
Speaker 1: and this changes everything. So this is kind of like

2644
02:39:52,400 --> 02:39:55,480
Speaker 1: the debate that we have to start having in order

2645
02:39:55,480 --> 02:40:01,320
Speaker 1: to be able to together formulate these kinds of solutions. Yeah, alright,

2646
02:40:01,360 --> 02:40:05,760
Speaker 1: well I think that's gonna do it for for us today. Um,

2647
02:40:05,800 --> 02:40:07,520
Speaker 1: what do we what do we we do? You got

2648
02:40:07,560 --> 02:40:10,119
Speaker 1: you guys gotta gotta gotta plug you want to throw up?

2649
02:40:10,440 --> 02:40:15,080
Speaker 1: Throw up before we roll out? Yeah. If if you

2650
02:40:15,080 --> 02:40:20,800
Speaker 1: want to follow us at at Strange Underscore Matters UM

2651
02:40:21,240 --> 02:40:24,920
Speaker 1: on Twitter. UM. We also have a Facebook and you

2652
02:40:24,959 --> 02:40:29,680
Speaker 1: can read our articles at Strange Matters dot co op,

2653
02:40:30,240 --> 02:40:33,400
Speaker 1: which is our website. Uh. And if anything that you

2654
02:40:33,480 --> 02:40:35,800
Speaker 1: read there that you've heard here inspires you at all,

2655
02:40:35,800 --> 02:40:38,120
Speaker 1: please consider donating. We're gonna be in the next month

2656
02:40:38,240 --> 02:40:41,400
Speaker 1: raising money, uh for for the magazine and we want

2657
02:40:41,400 --> 02:40:44,119
Speaker 1: to pair writers above market rate because we think market

2658
02:40:44,160 --> 02:40:46,600
Speaker 1: rates too low. So but in order to actually do that,

2659
02:40:46,640 --> 02:40:48,320
Speaker 1: and none of the money is going to the editors

2660
02:40:48,520 --> 02:40:50,880
Speaker 1: from the fundraisers, so if if, if we're going to

2661
02:40:50,920 --> 02:40:52,320
Speaker 1: be able to do that, we've got to meet our

2662
02:40:52,640 --> 02:40:58,640
Speaker 1: fundraising target. All right, Well support them and um, you know,

2663
02:40:59,400 --> 02:41:01,760
Speaker 1: figure out how to save the world. It's it's up

2664
02:41:01,760 --> 02:41:04,920
Speaker 1: to you. And I'm speaking to exactly one person right

2665
02:41:04,959 --> 02:41:06,800
Speaker 1: now and no one else, but I'm not going to

2666
02:41:06,879 --> 02:41:23,440
Speaker 1: be more specific. Welcome to it could happen here a

2667
02:41:23,440 --> 02:41:27,120
Speaker 1: podcast about things following apart and putting it back together again.

2668
02:41:27,240 --> 02:41:31,119
Speaker 1: And today we're doing one of our I guess increasingly

2669
02:41:31,240 --> 02:41:33,680
Speaker 1: less rare but still sort of uncommon putting things back

2670
02:41:33,720 --> 02:41:36,880
Speaker 1: together again episodes, and with me today is Ted men

2671
02:41:37,000 --> 02:41:41,200
Speaker 1: from Amazonians United, to talk about different kinds of union

2672
02:41:41,320 --> 02:41:44,720
Speaker 1: union workers organizing UM and the work that you all

2673
02:41:44,720 --> 02:41:48,000
Speaker 1: have been doing. So Ted, welcome to the show. Thanks

2674
02:41:48,080 --> 02:41:52,480
Speaker 1: for having me so all right, one of the things

2675
02:41:52,480 --> 02:41:54,840
Speaker 1: that I wanted to talk about right off the bat

2676
02:41:54,920 --> 02:41:58,920
Speaker 1: is that Amazonians United is running a very very different

2677
02:41:59,040 --> 02:42:01,279
Speaker 1: kind of organization. And then a lot of the union

2678
02:42:01,800 --> 02:42:03,240
Speaker 1: efforts that we've talked about on the show, and a

2679
02:42:03,280 --> 02:42:06,640
Speaker 1: lot of the sort of like I guess, classical sort

2680
02:42:06,640 --> 02:42:11,160
Speaker 1: of business union model stuff that that you know, we've

2681
02:42:11,200 --> 02:42:13,560
Speaker 1: we've we've we you know, than than what you see

2682
02:42:13,600 --> 02:42:15,640
Speaker 1: in the press, and then also that we've been covering.

2683
02:42:15,720 --> 02:42:19,440
Speaker 1: So I wanted to start off by asking you about

2684
02:42:19,560 --> 02:42:23,040
Speaker 1: solidarity unionism and how it sort of differs from other

2685
02:42:23,120 --> 02:42:28,480
Speaker 1: kinds of union organizations and campaigns. Sure, I think it's

2686
02:42:28,520 --> 02:42:33,039
Speaker 1: pretty simple. Actually, I think solidarity unionism is workers who

2687
02:42:33,080 --> 02:42:36,480
Speaker 1: believe in ourselves, and by that I mean and it's

2688
02:42:36,600 --> 02:42:41,039
Speaker 1: workers recognizing that we don't need someone to save us

2689
02:42:41,720 --> 02:42:47,600
Speaker 1: UM when because we are the ones doing the work,

2690
02:42:47,720 --> 02:42:51,760
Speaker 1: we know how to run our workplaces, We know how

2691
02:42:51,920 --> 02:42:59,600
Speaker 1: to do it best, and we also deserve the wealth

2692
02:42:59,640 --> 02:43:03,920
Speaker 1: that we've produce. So UM solidarity unionism to me is

2693
02:43:05,080 --> 02:43:11,120
Speaker 1: UH building organization with each other, where the fabric of

2694
02:43:11,120 --> 02:43:17,000
Speaker 1: our organization is our relationship and our solidarity as co

2695
02:43:17,160 --> 02:43:24,640
Speaker 1: workers engaging in struggle against UM, bosses, managers, owners, UM, everyone.

2696
02:43:24,760 --> 02:43:29,560
Speaker 1: That's that's telling us what to do while UH taking

2697
02:43:30,000 --> 02:43:34,560
Speaker 1: the lion's share of the wealth that we create. UM.

2698
02:43:34,720 --> 02:43:39,720
Speaker 1: And it's by uniting, coming together around issues that we

2699
02:43:39,760 --> 02:43:44,240
Speaker 1: care about, taking direct action in the workplace, UM building

2700
02:43:44,360 --> 02:43:49,680
Speaker 1: our confidence and our strength and our consciousness UM and

2701
02:43:49,760 --> 02:43:55,240
Speaker 1: our organization. To me, a solidarity unioniszone UM. It is

2702
02:43:56,720 --> 02:44:02,240
Speaker 1: distinctly different from business as unionism, which is the dominant

2703
02:44:02,280 --> 02:44:07,520
Speaker 1: form mainstream unionism, you know, legalistic unionism, whatever you want

2704
02:44:07,520 --> 02:44:13,480
Speaker 1: to call it, UM, that model that has been failing

2705
02:44:13,879 --> 02:44:20,680
Speaker 1: for several decades. UM actually is predicated on a deep

2706
02:44:20,840 --> 02:44:27,959
Speaker 1: distrust of workers, the disbelief that workers can organize ourselves,

2707
02:44:28,160 --> 02:44:33,920
Speaker 1: run our own workplaces, represent ourselves, defend ourselves and each other. UM.

2708
02:44:33,959 --> 02:44:37,000
Speaker 1: And in business union. I mean, you know, you you

2709
02:44:38,040 --> 02:44:41,400
Speaker 1: see the ads when they're posting, uh for union staff, job,

2710
02:44:41,640 --> 02:44:44,880
Speaker 1: come lead these workers, Come come join this union and lead.

2711
02:44:46,280 --> 02:44:48,080
Speaker 1: You're not even a worker in the workplace. How are

2712
02:44:48,080 --> 02:44:50,600
Speaker 1: you going to lead someone in there? Like you know,

2713
02:44:50,720 --> 02:44:53,200
Speaker 1: you're you're a lawyer, you're you know, you have a

2714
02:44:53,200 --> 02:44:56,680
Speaker 1: different professional expertise. You're not moving the packages with us

2715
02:44:56,840 --> 02:45:00,879
Speaker 1: from inside, with from within the U, the warehouse, and

2716
02:45:00,959 --> 02:45:05,560
Speaker 1: so um. Yeah, I think that's that's the main difference

2717
02:45:05,600 --> 02:45:09,080
Speaker 1: to me of the model. Do you are you a worker?

2718
02:45:09,200 --> 02:45:11,959
Speaker 1: Do you believe in workers? Do you trust and have

2719
02:45:12,080 --> 02:45:15,400
Speaker 1: faith that workers we ourselves can build our own organization,

2720
02:45:15,560 --> 02:45:20,880
Speaker 1: lead ourselves. Um? And um? And when or do you

2721
02:45:20,959 --> 02:45:23,760
Speaker 1: think workers need to be led, need to be represented,

2722
02:45:24,000 --> 02:45:26,880
Speaker 1: need to be told what to do? Um? Need to

2723
02:45:26,920 --> 02:45:33,480
Speaker 1: pay you to go and say that? Um? And uh. Yeah.

2724
02:45:32,879 --> 02:45:37,879
Speaker 1: I believe in workers almost. I'm a solidarity unionist. Yeah.

2725
02:45:37,879 --> 02:45:40,840
Speaker 1: And I think we were talking a bit before the

2726
02:45:40,879 --> 02:45:42,800
Speaker 1: show about this, and I think there's there's a lot

2727
02:45:42,800 --> 02:45:47,199
Speaker 1: of aspects about this that are I think very powerful

2728
02:45:47,360 --> 02:45:51,039
Speaker 1: in you know, in in in in secacy economy that

2729
02:45:51,080 --> 02:45:53,480
Speaker 1: haven't been unionized. And I haven't our unions ever treated

2730
02:45:53,480 --> 02:45:55,600
Speaker 1: from our people who are never sort of organized and

2731
02:45:55,680 --> 02:45:59,040
Speaker 1: to begin with, and I think that's you know something

2732
02:45:59,080 --> 02:46:04,160
Speaker 1: that there's there, there's the there's this problem that happens

2733
02:46:04,200 --> 02:46:08,680
Speaker 1: like with with a lot of unions where you know,

2734
02:46:08,760 --> 02:46:10,480
Speaker 1: you you you get you get this sort of beureacratic

2735
02:46:10,520 --> 02:46:12,680
Speaker 1: structure that builds up and the bereacratic structure that builds

2736
02:46:12,760 --> 02:46:15,960
Speaker 1: up like doesn't have doesn't necessarily have the same interests

2737
02:46:16,000 --> 02:46:18,400
Speaker 1: as the people in the union. And that's a real problem.

2738
02:46:18,440 --> 02:46:20,920
Speaker 1: And you get these entrenched like you know, you can

2739
02:46:20,959 --> 02:46:22,920
Speaker 1: get these in trenched caucuses you control unions, and you

2740
02:46:22,959 --> 02:46:26,200
Speaker 1: get this the sort of proliferation of of these people.

2741
02:46:26,200 --> 02:46:29,440
Speaker 1: And I think this is this was part of why

2742
02:46:29,520 --> 02:46:32,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the sort of the anti union techniques

2743
02:46:32,400 --> 02:46:34,320
Speaker 1: that you saw in like the sort of anti union

2744
02:46:34,360 --> 02:46:37,320
Speaker 1: persias in the eighties, I mean you've been seeing them

2745
02:46:37,320 --> 02:46:38,879
Speaker 1: for a while. Like why they started working in the

2746
02:46:38,920 --> 02:46:41,560
Speaker 1: eighties was that like you know, when when when when

2747
02:46:41,600 --> 02:46:44,080
Speaker 1: someone like starts ranting about union bureaucrats right like they're

2748
02:46:44,120 --> 02:46:46,879
Speaker 1: they're actually like there actually was a divide there, like

2749
02:46:46,920 --> 02:46:49,840
Speaker 1: there there there was a sort of like I guess

2750
02:46:49,840 --> 02:46:52,680
Speaker 1: like like there there was a sort of like a

2751
02:46:52,760 --> 02:46:57,320
Speaker 1: kind of fundamental class difference, which I think has a

2752
02:46:57,360 --> 02:46:58,840
Speaker 1: lot I mean, also has a lot to do with

2753
02:46:59,320 --> 02:47:01,200
Speaker 1: you know, when when you get into your sort of

2754
02:47:01,240 --> 02:47:04,120
Speaker 1: like more more revolutionary context that that has to do

2755
02:47:04,240 --> 02:47:08,080
Speaker 1: with why a lot of unions when you know, France

2756
02:47:08,120 --> 02:47:09,840
Speaker 1: is infamous for this, right Like, France has had these

2757
02:47:09,879 --> 02:47:12,240
Speaker 1: giant like comunist trade unions and every time a revolution started,

2758
02:47:12,320 --> 02:47:14,040
Speaker 1: the trade union just like sits there and does nothing.

2759
02:47:15,160 --> 02:47:17,199
Speaker 1: And yeah, and you have to sort of ask yourself like, okay,

2760
02:47:17,200 --> 02:47:20,199
Speaker 1: so why is this happening? And I think, yeah, soldier

2761
02:47:20,240 --> 02:47:22,760
Speaker 1: to unionism, it has it has a lot of answers

2762
02:47:22,800 --> 02:47:24,880
Speaker 1: to this sort of I guess you call it like that.

2763
02:47:25,000 --> 02:47:26,400
Speaker 1: There's there's a there's a sort of like right wing

2764
02:47:26,480 --> 02:47:29,160
Speaker 1: critique of unions that has to do with like, well, okay,

2765
02:47:29,160 --> 02:47:30,880
Speaker 1: so we don't want workers to organize, We don't want

2766
02:47:30,879 --> 02:47:32,640
Speaker 1: them to reflective power at all. But then there's also

2767
02:47:33,120 --> 02:47:35,240
Speaker 1: you know, but but the reason that it works in

2768
02:47:35,240 --> 02:47:37,000
Speaker 1: a lot of cases because it's able to tap into

2769
02:47:37,000 --> 02:47:40,080
Speaker 1: a sort of like into these structural problems that a

2770
02:47:40,120 --> 02:47:44,880
Speaker 1: lot of unions have. And I think so my understanding

2771
02:47:44,920 --> 02:47:48,760
Speaker 1: of how yells organizing has been going and correct me

2772
02:47:48,800 --> 02:47:50,920
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong that I've been interested in is that like,

2773
02:47:52,600 --> 02:47:55,879
Speaker 1: unlike a lot of other campaigns that you've seen, even

2774
02:47:55,879 --> 02:47:58,000
Speaker 1: specifically with Amazon, but like a lot of other the

2775
02:47:58,280 --> 02:47:59,959
Speaker 1: sort of the campaigns that are getting a lot of

2776
02:48:00,040 --> 02:48:02,000
Speaker 1: us like, you're not active, Like your goal isn't to

2777
02:48:02,080 --> 02:48:07,360
Speaker 1: just get like recognition as a collected bargaining in it. Right.

2778
02:48:08,240 --> 02:48:12,119
Speaker 1: That's another key part of our key difference between solidarity

2779
02:48:12,200 --> 02:48:20,320
Speaker 1: unionism business unionism. Um. In business unionism, you're what defines

2780
02:48:20,760 --> 02:48:24,119
Speaker 1: you as a union is whether you are legally recognized

2781
02:48:24,160 --> 02:48:27,760
Speaker 1: by the state, by the n l R b um,

2782
02:48:28,000 --> 02:48:34,920
Speaker 1: by the appointed government body. Yeah. Um. That is the

2783
02:48:34,959 --> 02:48:38,800
Speaker 1: point at which the folks in these organizations like, are

2784
02:48:38,800 --> 02:48:41,080
Speaker 1: we a union or are we not? Okay, let's let's

2785
02:48:41,080 --> 02:48:44,120
Speaker 1: do an election. Let's follow all these rules that, by

2786
02:48:44,200 --> 02:48:48,440
Speaker 1: the way, we're designed to demobilize us. Yeah, century ago.

2787
02:48:48,680 --> 02:48:52,920
Speaker 1: But let's follow these rules. Let's try to fight in

2788
02:48:53,000 --> 02:48:56,760
Speaker 1: the courts, uh, to be recognized as a union. And

2789
02:48:56,800 --> 02:48:58,600
Speaker 1: then once we're a union, then we can fight for

2790
02:48:58,640 --> 02:49:02,199
Speaker 1: a legal contract that has benefited a lot of people

2791
02:49:02,360 --> 02:49:04,320
Speaker 1: in different ways. I'm not you know what I mean, Like,

2792
02:49:05,760 --> 02:49:11,480
Speaker 1: but that approach is different than solidity unism where it's like,

2793
02:49:12,280 --> 02:49:15,440
Speaker 1: we know our power is in the workplace, on the

2794
02:49:15,480 --> 02:49:17,959
Speaker 1: shop floor, where our power is based on our unity

2795
02:49:17,959 --> 02:49:21,600
Speaker 1: and numbers as co workers. We see this when we

2796
02:49:21,720 --> 02:49:23,920
Speaker 1: walk out and within a month they give us a raise.

2797
02:49:24,320 --> 02:49:26,240
Speaker 1: Along would it have taken to get a raise if

2798
02:49:26,280 --> 02:49:32,439
Speaker 1: we went for an l ORB election. Yeah, what organization

2799
02:49:32,480 --> 02:49:36,840
Speaker 1: are we even building in that way? And so um our.

2800
02:49:38,320 --> 02:49:45,800
Speaker 1: Instead of seeking legal recognition and waging our uh uh

2801
02:49:46,160 --> 02:49:51,080
Speaker 1: struggle against bosses in the courts, we are choosing to

2802
02:49:51,160 --> 02:49:56,640
Speaker 1: wage engage in struggle in the shop floor where we

2803
02:49:56,800 --> 02:49:59,400
Speaker 1: are the experts, where we have the power, where we

2804
02:49:59,440 --> 02:50:02,280
Speaker 1: have the organis station, where we're doing the work, where

2805
02:50:02,400 --> 02:50:06,680
Speaker 1: that is our home turf. Um. We have more power there, Like,

2806
02:50:06,920 --> 02:50:09,640
Speaker 1: it makes more sense to build power where we have power,

2807
02:50:10,040 --> 02:50:15,119
Speaker 1: not in the institutions that were specifically designed to disempower

2808
02:50:15,280 --> 02:50:18,400
Speaker 1: us and give large employers to the the upper hand. Um.

2809
02:50:18,560 --> 02:50:22,360
Speaker 1: All the different ways that they can manipulate how the

2810
02:50:22,440 --> 02:50:28,800
Speaker 1: votes happen, what is considered part of the voting unit, um,

2811
02:50:29,080 --> 02:50:33,199
Speaker 1: the contract negotiation process, I mean all of these legal hurdles.

2812
02:50:33,480 --> 02:50:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, for the vast majority of workers, you'll need

2813
02:50:38,200 --> 02:50:42,160
Speaker 1: lawyers to be even understand how to engage in that world.

2814
02:50:42,320 --> 02:50:45,040
Speaker 1: That's not our world. It was not built for us

2815
02:50:45,360 --> 02:50:47,959
Speaker 1: to be in. It was built to control us. And

2816
02:50:48,040 --> 02:50:54,440
Speaker 1: so um, it just doesn't make logical sense to try

2817
02:50:54,480 --> 02:50:58,200
Speaker 1: to wage our struggle in that arena. We should be

2818
02:50:58,200 --> 02:51:00,440
Speaker 1: in waging it in the play this is that we

2819
02:51:00,520 --> 02:51:03,520
Speaker 1: work and so um. That Yeah, that's I think another

2820
02:51:03,680 --> 02:51:08,000
Speaker 1: core UM principal solid or unism like build power where

2821
02:51:08,040 --> 02:51:11,280
Speaker 1: we have it um and that's the shop for Yeah,

2822
02:51:11,320 --> 02:51:12,880
Speaker 1: and I think, I mean that's something that I've seen

2823
02:51:13,200 --> 02:51:15,480
Speaker 1: like in like when I was in college, there there

2824
02:51:15,560 --> 02:51:18,959
Speaker 1: was a big grad student union organization campaign and it

2825
02:51:19,080 --> 02:51:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of they had this huge problem which was that Okay,

2826
02:51:23,320 --> 02:51:24,960
Speaker 1: well they were trying to do they were trying to

2827
02:51:24,959 --> 02:51:29,040
Speaker 1: get a National Labor Relations Board like vote under Trump.

2828
02:51:29,800 --> 02:51:32,439
Speaker 1: But they couldn't do it because if you know, because

2829
02:51:32,480 --> 02:51:34,440
Speaker 1: because the National Labor Relations Board was controlled by just

2830
02:51:34,600 --> 02:51:39,480
Speaker 1: like the even even by National Labor Relations Board standards

2831
02:51:39,600 --> 02:51:45,280
Speaker 1: like like just unbelievably anti union, like viscerally anti worker forces.

2832
02:51:45,320 --> 02:51:47,000
Speaker 1: It was like, well, if we try to get a vote,

2833
02:51:47,400 --> 02:51:49,720
Speaker 1: like there's a chance they could just you know, like

2834
02:51:49,800 --> 02:51:52,040
Speaker 1: literally destroy the right, like destroy the organizing rights of

2835
02:51:52,040 --> 02:51:54,600
Speaker 1: all grad students of the country. And yeah, and you

2836
02:51:54,600 --> 02:51:57,119
Speaker 1: get you get that with the Nissan election or something

2837
02:51:57,160 --> 02:52:00,880
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, yeah, and definitely delayed it. Yeah, and

2838
02:52:01,040 --> 02:52:03,320
Speaker 1: it's it's you know, and yeah, I think this this

2839
02:52:03,400 --> 02:52:06,160
Speaker 1: is a trap that like a lot of people, even

2840
02:52:06,160 --> 02:52:09,480
Speaker 1: even people who are really highly organized, like get stuck

2841
02:52:09,520 --> 02:52:14,400
Speaker 1: in where you know, and like eventually, uh, the grand

2842
02:52:14,440 --> 02:52:18,680
Speaker 1: students just like essentially just started doing walkouts because that

2843
02:52:18,760 --> 02:52:20,440
Speaker 1: was you know, that that was the thing they could

2844
02:52:20,480 --> 02:52:22,160
Speaker 1: do when they start doing their own strikes, even til

2845
02:52:22,200 --> 02:52:24,119
Speaker 1: they weren't like legally recognized, because that was the thing

2846
02:52:24,120 --> 02:52:27,200
Speaker 1: that you could do to you know, actually fight in

2847
02:52:27,240 --> 02:52:30,880
Speaker 1: a terrain that wasn't just inherently rigged against you. So okay,

2848
02:52:30,879 --> 02:52:34,080
Speaker 1: so you've you've you've you've decided to take to take

2849
02:52:34,080 --> 02:52:36,280
Speaker 1: a fight in the workplace, like on the shop floor,

2850
02:52:36,320 --> 02:52:38,440
Speaker 1: where where you're where you're at your strongest. What does

2851
02:52:38,440 --> 02:52:41,000
Speaker 1: that actually look like in terms of actions, in terms

2852
02:52:41,080 --> 02:52:52,199
Speaker 1: of organization. Yeah, honestly, I think it's simpler and more rudimentary.

2853
02:52:52,800 --> 02:52:57,560
Speaker 1: Um then one might think or that you might read

2854
02:52:57,600 --> 02:53:01,840
Speaker 1: about and you know, I can that article or something analyzing.

2855
02:53:02,400 --> 02:53:09,480
Speaker 1: I think it comes down to comes down to building community,

2856
02:53:10,000 --> 02:53:16,560
Speaker 1: comes down to building culture and the principles of the

2857
02:53:16,600 --> 02:53:19,800
Speaker 1: community and culture that you build together with their coworkers

2858
02:53:19,879 --> 02:53:23,520
Speaker 1: is one where we value ourselves and each other. We

2859
02:53:23,600 --> 02:53:28,959
Speaker 1: respect ourselves and each other, and that means that we

2860
02:53:30,160 --> 02:53:33,440
Speaker 1: fight for what is fair in the workplace. That means

2861
02:53:33,520 --> 02:53:40,800
Speaker 1: that we maintain integrity. Anytime a boss disrespects one of us,

2862
02:53:41,240 --> 02:53:43,760
Speaker 1: we need to confront it. We we need to address it.

2863
02:53:44,200 --> 02:53:49,959
Speaker 1: H if not immediately, uh soon after. In numbers, UM,

2864
02:53:50,080 --> 02:53:54,520
Speaker 1: it means if we're getting overworked and underpaid, then we

2865
02:53:54,560 --> 02:53:58,280
Speaker 1: need to strategize and figure out how do we how

2866
02:53:58,360 --> 02:54:03,080
Speaker 1: do we come hell the employer to stop overworking and

2867
02:54:03,160 --> 02:54:05,920
Speaker 1: underpaying us, How do we hit them in a place

2868
02:54:06,080 --> 02:54:10,200
Speaker 1: that they are forced to respect and um as it

2869
02:54:10,240 --> 02:54:13,440
Speaker 1: goes In the world we are today, it's always the numbers,

2870
02:54:13,440 --> 02:54:16,879
Speaker 1: It's always the money, it's always the profit. So UM

2871
02:54:16,920 --> 02:54:18,800
Speaker 1: what that means on the day to day, I mean,

2872
02:54:19,400 --> 02:54:26,279
Speaker 1: m Amazon warehouses are a very isolating place. UM. Amazon

2873
02:54:26,400 --> 02:54:31,200
Speaker 1: has basically uh gigified warehouse work. You know, it's like

2874
02:54:31,200 --> 02:54:33,440
Speaker 1: the Uber for warehouse where you can pick up shifts,

2875
02:54:33,480 --> 02:54:36,160
Speaker 1: you can you know, extra shifts, you can take uh

2876
02:54:36,360 --> 02:54:41,120
Speaker 1: furlough days, you know, called them videos. UM many warehouses,

2877
02:54:41,200 --> 02:54:45,280
Speaker 1: Like you're work the ten twelve hour shift and you're

2878
02:54:45,640 --> 02:54:48,160
Speaker 1: for that entire time you're near one or two people max.

2879
02:54:48,200 --> 02:54:51,000
Speaker 1: Because they're spaced out and it's loud, and there's machinery

2880
02:54:51,040 --> 02:54:55,520
Speaker 1: and your packing boxes and and so UM. On top

2881
02:54:55,560 --> 02:55:00,720
Speaker 1: of that, you know that every day dehumanizing. It's also um,

2882
02:55:00,840 --> 02:55:03,959
Speaker 1: you're pushed to work faster and faster. UM. It's difficult

2883
02:55:04,040 --> 02:55:07,840
Speaker 1: to have you know, deep human interaction when you're busting

2884
02:55:07,840 --> 02:55:10,840
Speaker 1: your ass moving you know, thirty to forty five pound

2885
02:55:10,840 --> 02:55:16,720
Speaker 1: packages as quickly as you can. UM. And so the

2886
02:55:17,920 --> 02:55:21,000
Speaker 1: day to day of building and fighting in the workplace,

2887
02:55:21,120 --> 02:55:25,480
Speaker 1: building community means uh. For example, every week we have

2888
02:55:25,520 --> 02:55:28,560
Speaker 1: a pot luck during lunch, bring co workers together, new

2889
02:55:28,560 --> 02:55:32,119
Speaker 1: coworkers that you know, someone could start last week. That's

2890
02:55:32,160 --> 02:55:34,400
Speaker 1: something that we hear a lot. You know. Part of

2891
02:55:34,400 --> 02:55:37,080
Speaker 1: the challenge, it's the turnover is so high? How can

2892
02:55:37,120 --> 02:55:40,680
Speaker 1: you possibly organize the turnover was so high? Um. That

2893
02:55:40,920 --> 02:55:44,600
Speaker 1: is a specific weapon that boss is used against us.

2894
02:55:44,640 --> 02:55:47,320
Speaker 1: High turnover means what it means we frequently have new

2895
02:55:47,360 --> 02:55:50,879
Speaker 1: coworkers harder to build relationship and organization. It means that

2896
02:55:51,160 --> 02:55:55,720
Speaker 1: the job feels more precarious, so people are always uh

2897
02:55:55,959 --> 02:55:58,480
Speaker 1: afraid that we'll lose our job. You know, we could

2898
02:55:58,480 --> 02:56:02,400
Speaker 1: get fired. We could they could change uh, staffing numbers

2899
02:56:02,400 --> 02:56:05,360
Speaker 1: that could close warehouses. It create you know, as a

2900
02:56:05,400 --> 02:56:09,800
Speaker 1: tool higher turnover. They just they turn through workers. Okay,

2901
02:56:09,800 --> 02:56:11,920
Speaker 1: who who's willing to do the most work for the

2902
02:56:11,920 --> 02:56:15,680
Speaker 1: lowest pay and sacrifice the most of their body? Okay?

2903
02:56:15,760 --> 02:56:17,680
Speaker 1: If if you can't handle it, then you quit. If

2904
02:56:17,720 --> 02:56:19,560
Speaker 1: you can, then you stay in here. Okay, let's find

2905
02:56:19,560 --> 02:56:22,080
Speaker 1: the workers in society that are most able to you know,

2906
02:56:22,560 --> 02:56:24,600
Speaker 1: produce the most that so on and so forth and

2907
02:56:24,680 --> 02:56:30,120
Speaker 1: so basic things you know, having every day. Uh. Sometimes

2908
02:56:30,160 --> 02:56:33,440
Speaker 1: it's just like talking with your coworkers is something that

2909
02:56:33,680 --> 02:56:38,040
Speaker 1: is that they try to keep you from doing in

2910
02:56:38,080 --> 02:56:43,240
Speaker 1: the workplace, And by engaging conversation, you're already resisting that isolation,

2911
02:56:43,280 --> 02:56:47,720
Speaker 1: already resisting. UM boss is trying to just control everything,

2912
02:56:47,840 --> 02:56:53,480
Speaker 1: keep everyone divided. So weekly pot lunches, UM having meetings

2913
02:56:53,560 --> 02:56:56,520
Speaker 1: inside or outside of the workplace, coming together. What are

2914
02:56:56,520 --> 02:56:59,600
Speaker 1: the issues that we care about? UM? How do we

2915
02:56:59,680 --> 02:57:02,119
Speaker 1: bring how do we build more unity around these issues

2916
02:57:02,120 --> 02:57:04,280
Speaker 1: that we know many people care about. Isn't doing a

2917
02:57:04,280 --> 02:57:07,240
Speaker 1: petition people sign on together? Are we delivering the petition

2918
02:57:07,280 --> 02:57:11,680
Speaker 1: in the group. Um, if the management doesn't respond, it

2919
02:57:11,800 --> 02:57:14,840
Speaker 1: doesn't give us a reasonable response. How do we escalate?

2920
02:57:14,920 --> 02:57:16,320
Speaker 1: Do we need to walk out? Do we need to

2921
02:57:16,320 --> 02:57:20,800
Speaker 1: take other action? Um? Any time we see a manager

2922
02:57:20,840 --> 02:57:25,280
Speaker 1: disres disrespecting a coworker, UM, how do we post up

2923
02:57:25,320 --> 02:57:27,480
Speaker 1: next to them, pull out a notepads, start taking notes?

2924
02:57:27,480 --> 02:57:30,120
Speaker 1: Ask questions? UM, we're a witness, you know. How do

2925
02:57:30,160 --> 02:57:32,240
Speaker 1: we defend each other in all of these basic ways?

2926
02:57:32,560 --> 02:57:36,360
Speaker 1: How are we addressing um and being honest with ourselves

2927
02:57:36,400 --> 02:57:40,280
Speaker 1: and each other of uh? Just the depth of disrespect

2928
02:57:40,280 --> 02:57:42,400
Speaker 1: when they're waiting for us outside of the bathrooms to

2929
02:57:42,440 --> 02:57:44,640
Speaker 1: write us up for time off task, when they're telling

2930
02:57:44,680 --> 02:57:47,200
Speaker 1: us to work faster when you know we're already on

2931
02:57:47,240 --> 02:57:49,640
Speaker 1: a ten hour shift, we're on our ten of the

2932
02:57:49,640 --> 02:57:51,879
Speaker 1: ten hour shift. They send a bunch of people home

2933
02:57:52,240 --> 02:57:54,400
Speaker 1: and are forcing us to finish all the work for

2934
02:57:54,440 --> 02:57:57,120
Speaker 1: a small number of people. Do we continue putting up

2935
02:57:57,120 --> 02:57:59,680
Speaker 1: with it? Or do we immediately walk out? Or do

2936
02:57:59,760 --> 02:58:01,360
Speaker 1: we off with their co works about what we want

2937
02:58:01,400 --> 02:58:06,200
Speaker 1: to do? Just being mindful of being honest about what

2938
02:58:07,000 --> 02:58:09,920
Speaker 1: how we are being treated, what is fair, what is

2939
02:58:09,959 --> 02:58:17,800
Speaker 1: not and taking the necessary action to UH demand the

2940
02:58:17,800 --> 02:58:21,000
Speaker 1: the fairness, the respect that each of us deserve. I think,

2941
02:58:21,000 --> 02:58:28,120
Speaker 1: like that's what the workplace struggle looks like. Um, I don't. Yeah,

2942
02:58:28,200 --> 02:58:30,720
Speaker 1: And I think it comes down to building that community

2943
02:58:31,640 --> 02:58:34,240
Speaker 1: with each other and then building the culture of not

2944
02:58:34,240 --> 02:58:37,080
Speaker 1: putting up with bullshit, defending each other, looking out for

2945
02:58:37,120 --> 02:58:40,960
Speaker 1: each other. Um, there's them, there's an US. UM. Make

2946
02:58:41,000 --> 02:58:44,960
Speaker 1: sure you know inside you're on UM and you know.

2947
02:58:45,160 --> 02:58:49,360
Speaker 1: I think that's the that's the foundation of it. Yeah.

2948
02:58:49,400 --> 02:58:52,360
Speaker 1: I think that the aspect, especially of culture building is

2949
02:58:52,400 --> 02:58:54,320
Speaker 1: really interesting to me because I think that's something that's

2950
02:58:54,400 --> 02:58:59,840
Speaker 1: not really talked about much with with with the organizing.

2951
02:59:00,040 --> 02:59:04,000
Speaker 1: It's both because you know, a lot of like a

2952
02:59:04,000 --> 02:59:06,680
Speaker 1: lot of what is discussed with you know, it's it's

2953
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:10,280
Speaker 1: especially not in academic circles. When when when you're when

2954
02:59:10,280 --> 02:59:11,960
Speaker 1: you're just you know, when when when you have people

2955
02:59:11,959 --> 02:59:14,200
Speaker 1: writing about union organizing, and when even when sort of

2956
02:59:14,240 --> 02:59:18,760
Speaker 1: like other union organizers are writing about unions, is that, Yeah,

2957
02:59:19,040 --> 02:59:21,840
Speaker 1: you don't hear much about the cultural aspects, and you

2958
02:59:21,840 --> 02:59:26,720
Speaker 1: don't hear much about just resisting the actual like psychological

2959
02:59:26,760 --> 02:59:31,119
Speaker 1: degradation that you get. And that strikes me I think

2960
02:59:31,120 --> 02:59:34,080
Speaker 1: also as as yeah, as as you've been saying something

2961
02:59:34,080 --> 02:59:38,680
Speaker 1: that's that's very important not discussed enough as I mean

2962
02:59:38,720 --> 02:59:41,359
Speaker 1: both says just something that that is a goal in itself,

2963
02:59:41,400 --> 02:59:45,200
Speaker 1: like not having this sort of you know, not not

2964
02:59:45,240 --> 02:59:50,800
Speaker 1: having the just sort of horrible, demeaning and abusive sort

2965
02:59:50,840 --> 02:59:55,959
Speaker 1: of tyranny of the boss is just like existing as

2966
02:59:55,959 --> 03:00:00,200
Speaker 1: this kind of like normal force and the But then

2967
03:00:00,240 --> 03:00:02,720
Speaker 1: also like yeah that this destructly something that that is

2968
03:00:02,760 --> 03:00:06,000
Speaker 1: really important for anyone who's who's thinking about organizing is

2969
03:00:06,920 --> 03:00:10,840
Speaker 1: you know, getting getting people, getting people to organize around

2970
03:00:11,760 --> 03:00:18,119
Speaker 1: just like how get get people to organize around just

2971
03:00:18,959 --> 03:00:23,640
Speaker 1: the sort of like the psychological decordation, like I think

2972
03:00:23,800 --> 03:00:26,720
Speaker 1: is really important because otherwise you know, you get you

2973
03:00:26,720 --> 03:00:29,280
Speaker 1: can get you can just get these cultures where like

2974
03:00:29,320 --> 03:00:30,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember I had a job where I

2975
03:00:30,840 --> 03:00:32,680
Speaker 1: was in like we had a union, but like it

2976
03:00:32,760 --> 03:00:34,920
Speaker 1: didn't I mean I was so I was I was

2977
03:00:34,920 --> 03:00:36,600
Speaker 1: a temp workers where I wasn't in the union, like

2978
03:00:36,600 --> 03:00:38,440
Speaker 1: they had a union, and it just sort of didn't

2979
03:00:38,480 --> 03:00:42,120
Speaker 1: do anything, and no one like you and this this

2980
03:00:42,160 --> 03:00:43,800
Speaker 1: is a real source that sort of righting resentment because

2981
03:00:43,800 --> 03:00:46,200
Speaker 1: the union just didn't do anything, and then you know

2982
03:00:46,240 --> 03:00:50,720
Speaker 1: everyone's getting treated terribly like by by the bosses and

2983
03:00:50,760 --> 03:00:52,640
Speaker 1: by sort upper management and no one. But it never

2984
03:00:52,720 --> 03:00:56,160
Speaker 1: even like it never really like just on a culture level,

2985
03:00:56,240 --> 03:00:58,240
Speaker 1: never occurred to them to sort of like use the

2986
03:00:58,320 --> 03:01:00,600
Speaker 1: union for that, because it's not really what the union

2987
03:01:00,680 --> 03:01:02,240
Speaker 1: was there for. It was just the sort of like

2988
03:01:03,080 --> 03:01:06,080
Speaker 1: it was just this thing that existed and like occasionally

2989
03:01:06,080 --> 03:01:09,560
Speaker 1: when contracts came up, it would appear. And I guess,

2990
03:01:09,560 --> 03:01:11,240
Speaker 1: on on on that note, one of the things I

2991
03:01:11,280 --> 03:01:15,640
Speaker 1: was also wondering is what sort of so for for

2992
03:01:15,640 --> 03:01:17,959
Speaker 1: for for people who are who are interested in their

2993
03:01:18,000 --> 03:01:20,560
Speaker 1: own workplaces and starting doing this kind of organizing and

2994
03:01:20,600 --> 03:01:23,680
Speaker 1: starting to sort of, i mean just fight back against

2995
03:01:23,680 --> 03:01:26,920
Speaker 1: their bosses in ways that don't you know, either because

2996
03:01:26,920 --> 03:01:29,400
Speaker 1: they don't want to or because they literally can't, which

2997
03:01:29,400 --> 03:01:31,280
Speaker 1: I think is is true of a lot of people

2998
03:01:31,879 --> 03:01:34,320
Speaker 1: like who who want to organize outside of the business

2999
03:01:34,400 --> 03:01:36,680
Speaker 1: union model. How how do you how did you all

3000
03:01:38,000 --> 03:01:44,039
Speaker 1: start organizing like this? And what what sort of immediate

3001
03:01:44,120 --> 03:01:46,640
Speaker 1: lessons do you think people should should take away and

3002
03:01:46,640 --> 03:01:49,440
Speaker 1: should sort of bring in bring into their own organizing

3003
03:01:49,440 --> 03:01:56,600
Speaker 1: in the workplace. Yeah, um, I think of the base

3004
03:01:56,840 --> 03:02:01,840
Speaker 1: of the is the UM I guess I mentioned something

3005
03:02:01,879 --> 03:02:05,920
Speaker 1: like this earlier, but that we we can organize ourselves.

3006
03:02:06,959 --> 03:02:09,360
Speaker 1: We can. You know, if you're talking if you have

3007
03:02:09,400 --> 03:02:13,440
Speaker 1: two co workers that you're friends with, and UM, you

3008
03:02:13,560 --> 03:02:17,000
Speaker 1: say like, hey, let's meet up and talk about what's

3009
03:02:17,000 --> 03:02:21,199
Speaker 1: going on at work, you're starting to organize, you know. UM.

3010
03:02:21,360 --> 03:02:30,280
Speaker 1: And I think part of part of the damage, part

3011
03:02:30,360 --> 03:02:37,840
Speaker 1: of the harm that business unionism has done. And also

3012
03:02:38,120 --> 03:02:46,920
Speaker 1: just I don't know, hierarchical organizing Umlinsky and organizing UM.

3013
03:02:46,959 --> 03:02:52,800
Speaker 1: I think they're all part of uh sort of connected

3014
03:02:52,840 --> 03:02:56,800
Speaker 1: school of thought where it's like organizing and you know,

3015
03:02:57,000 --> 03:02:59,039
Speaker 1: building an union is something that like you need to

3016
03:02:59,080 --> 03:03:02,560
Speaker 1: be like professor rolls to or you know, they're experts

3017
03:03:02,560 --> 03:03:04,959
Speaker 1: at it U the experts, and then if you're not

3018
03:03:05,080 --> 03:03:07,800
Speaker 1: an expert, then you need to consultant expert to figure

3019
03:03:07,800 --> 03:03:11,160
Speaker 1: out how to do it. UM. And I think that's bullshit.

3020
03:03:11,440 --> 03:03:15,440
Speaker 1: I think it's if you're a worker, then uh, you

3021
03:03:15,480 --> 03:03:18,879
Speaker 1: can be a union organizer. If you're a worker and

3022
03:03:19,000 --> 03:03:22,480
Speaker 1: you talk with you know, another worker about what's going

3023
03:03:22,520 --> 03:03:25,840
Speaker 1: on in your workplace, like you're already starting to organize. UM.

3024
03:03:26,280 --> 03:03:28,400
Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, if you're calling a meeting, if

3025
03:03:28,440 --> 03:03:31,400
Speaker 1: you're you know, and and workers do this all the time,

3026
03:03:31,920 --> 03:03:36,320
Speaker 1: confronting management about disrespect. You know, I think it's very

3027
03:03:36,400 --> 03:03:39,480
Speaker 1: much more frequently on an individual basis. But it's a

3028
03:03:39,520 --> 03:03:42,240
Speaker 1: matter of like connecting your issue with a couple other

3029
03:03:42,280 --> 03:03:45,760
Speaker 1: coworkers and then figure out, Okay, well, um, what what's

3030
03:03:45,800 --> 03:03:47,760
Speaker 1: our next step? But we need more numbers? How do

3031
03:03:47,800 --> 03:03:50,720
Speaker 1: we you know, how do we build more numbers? Uh?

3032
03:03:50,760 --> 03:03:52,720
Speaker 1: If each of us can invite one more person, that

3033
03:03:52,800 --> 03:03:56,080
Speaker 1: six people, if you know, if the six of us

3034
03:03:56,160 --> 03:03:59,320
Speaker 1: can are starting a petition, we could probably get you know,

3035
03:03:59,440 --> 03:04:02,160
Speaker 1: signature a fifty or sixty, you know, like it's it's

3036
03:04:02,160 --> 03:04:06,000
Speaker 1: step by step and saying if we want to build organization,

3037
03:04:07,240 --> 03:04:09,119
Speaker 1: we can do it from the bottom up. We can

3038
03:04:09,160 --> 03:04:13,560
Speaker 1: start it um and we can figure this out. I mean,

3039
03:04:13,840 --> 03:04:18,960
Speaker 1: every even within the same company, even within the same

3040
03:04:19,040 --> 03:04:21,400
Speaker 1: company in the same city there you know, I work

3041
03:04:21,480 --> 03:04:27,680
Speaker 1: at UM a delivery station, Engage Park, other delivery stations

3042
03:04:27,680 --> 03:04:31,760
Speaker 1: in the city of Chicago have a completely different culture,

3043
03:04:32,040 --> 03:04:36,520
Speaker 1: you know, the neighborhood that it's in the workers that

3044
03:04:36,520 --> 03:04:40,680
Speaker 1: are the bosses, you know, And so even in the

3045
03:04:40,800 --> 03:04:44,520
Speaker 1: same company, the same type of workplace in the same city,

3046
03:04:44,879 --> 03:04:48,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a different story for how that workplace

3047
03:04:48,320 --> 03:04:54,119
Speaker 1: is gonna you know, get united, come together, UM, figure

3048
03:04:54,160 --> 03:04:59,600
Speaker 1: things out, build organization, and it's just anyone there the

3049
03:05:00,600 --> 03:05:05,640
Speaker 1: is thinking about that. That that kind of just begins

3050
03:05:05,680 --> 03:05:08,800
Speaker 1: the process of putting together the basics. All right, we

3051
03:05:08,840 --> 03:05:10,640
Speaker 1: need to start building up some numbers. We need to

3052
03:05:10,680 --> 03:05:14,320
Speaker 1: start having, you know, addressing some issues that people care about.

3053
03:05:14,360 --> 03:05:16,920
Speaker 1: And there's always i mean, there's always the you know,

3054
03:05:17,000 --> 03:05:19,560
Speaker 1: overworked and underpaid and that's gonna exist everywhere. You can

3055
03:05:19,600 --> 03:05:21,920
Speaker 1: always go after those issues, but frequently they're small ones.

3056
03:05:21,959 --> 03:05:25,280
Speaker 1: Like our first issue was a water petition uh or

3057
03:05:25,400 --> 03:05:28,039
Speaker 1: or or or at was access to water UM, and

3058
03:05:28,080 --> 03:05:32,240
Speaker 1: this is how we started as an organization UM. Basically,

3059
03:05:32,320 --> 03:05:35,080
Speaker 1: they were taking away bottled water. They said we were

3060
03:05:35,120 --> 03:05:37,320
Speaker 1: leaving around too much garbage. They're saying bottled water is

3061
03:05:37,320 --> 03:05:39,240
Speaker 1: only there for the summer, and now that's not the summer.

3062
03:05:39,280 --> 03:05:42,080
Speaker 1: That whatever. They're trying to save a few dollars a

3063
03:05:42,160 --> 03:05:46,240
Speaker 1: day on bottled water to make us you know, work

3064
03:05:46,280 --> 03:05:51,600
Speaker 1: without it UM, and we said that's fucked up. We're

3065
03:05:51,640 --> 03:05:54,760
Speaker 1: doing warehouse work like this, hard manual labor, and it's

3066
03:05:54,760 --> 03:05:57,480
Speaker 1: hot in here. We need a bottle water. It's you know,

3067
03:05:57,720 --> 03:06:01,720
Speaker 1: not just that broken on filtered fountain across the warehouse

3068
03:06:01,840 --> 03:06:05,279
Speaker 1: that you can't even get to while you're working. Um.

3069
03:06:05,360 --> 03:06:09,000
Speaker 1: And so, uh, just a few of us that we're

3070
03:06:09,000 --> 03:06:11,120
Speaker 1: talking at break It was like, okay, well there's six

3071
03:06:11,160 --> 03:06:13,680
Speaker 1: of us here. Well we're kind of you know, this

3072
03:06:13,800 --> 03:06:16,040
Speaker 1: is the this is the break room at work. They're

3073
03:06:16,080 --> 03:06:18,840
Speaker 1: like managers walking around their cameras in here, like, let's

3074
03:06:18,879 --> 03:06:22,840
Speaker 1: meet outside, uh and figure this out. UM. So you know,

3075
03:06:22,959 --> 03:06:25,280
Speaker 1: we we met at a at a Crispy Cream down

3076
03:06:25,320 --> 03:06:30,720
Speaker 1: on like ninety third um, and uh we just basically

3077
03:06:30,760 --> 03:06:32,160
Speaker 1: said like, well, how are we gonna get this water?

3078
03:06:32,200 --> 03:06:35,000
Speaker 1: We've been asking management? Uh, you know they've given us

3079
03:06:35,000 --> 03:06:37,760
Speaker 1: the same reasons. We need to do something bigger that

3080
03:06:37,760 --> 03:06:41,040
Speaker 1: that they can't ignore. Um, how about a petition? And

3081
03:06:41,080 --> 03:06:43,600
Speaker 1: so we just drafted it. The six of us we

3082
03:06:43,720 --> 03:06:47,840
Speaker 1: drafted it. We went around. We got hundred fifty signatures

3083
03:06:47,840 --> 03:06:50,520
Speaker 1: I think from our co workers are just like basic commands.

3084
03:06:50,760 --> 03:06:52,720
Speaker 1: We need bottled water stocked every day. They need to

3085
03:06:52,760 --> 03:06:54,360
Speaker 1: be you know, filters need to be clean. We need

3086
03:06:54,400 --> 03:06:56,600
Speaker 1: to get a be able to take a break to

3087
03:06:56,600 --> 03:07:02,280
Speaker 1: get this water. Um. And we delivered the hundred fifty

3088
03:07:02,280 --> 03:07:05,720
Speaker 1: signatures to management. UM. I think it was within thirty

3089
03:07:05,840 --> 03:07:08,160
Speaker 1: or forty minutes, they drove to a grocery store, bought

3090
03:07:08,560 --> 03:07:11,840
Speaker 1: you know, went to the nearest pizza, bought every case

3091
03:07:11,879 --> 03:07:13,400
Speaker 1: a bottle. Why they have brought it and passed it

3092
03:07:13,400 --> 03:07:15,920
Speaker 1: out to everyone. We're like, oh, okay, like that was

3093
03:07:16,320 --> 03:07:17,880
Speaker 1: you know, people like that's just hey, we gotta do

3094
03:07:17,920 --> 03:07:19,560
Speaker 1: a petition for this thing. We gotta do, you know

3095
03:07:19,560 --> 03:07:23,000
Speaker 1: what we should? Probably it was that I don't want

3096
03:07:23,000 --> 03:07:25,360
Speaker 1: to say easy, because it's definitely not easy to like,

3097
03:07:25,640 --> 03:07:30,080
Speaker 1: but the steps, the step by step of like how

3098
03:07:30,160 --> 03:07:33,360
Speaker 1: do you begin, how do you get something started? How

3099
03:07:33,400 --> 03:07:38,360
Speaker 1: do you start building some immunity? Um? These are steps

3100
03:07:38,400 --> 03:07:41,360
Speaker 1: that we have taken. These are you know, what we

3101
03:07:41,440 --> 03:07:47,840
Speaker 1: think is can be applicable UM with everyone's own kind

3102
03:07:47,840 --> 03:07:51,920
Speaker 1: of personal tweaks based on you know, your own workplace. UM,

3103
03:07:52,040 --> 03:07:55,400
Speaker 1: to start getting something going from more coworkers, to start realizing,

3104
03:07:55,600 --> 03:07:58,720
Speaker 1: oh yeah, like we should be in more control of

3105
03:07:58,720 --> 03:08:01,000
Speaker 1: what's happening around here because we're the ones that are

3106
03:08:01,040 --> 03:08:03,640
Speaker 1: doing all the work, were the ones that are suffering

3107
03:08:03,640 --> 03:08:06,800
Speaker 1: the most from it in our bodies getting ground down

3108
03:08:06,920 --> 03:08:09,840
Speaker 1: from doing it, And so um, yeah, I think that

3109
03:08:10,240 --> 03:08:12,040
Speaker 1: I think I look back to a previous question to

3110
03:08:12,160 --> 03:08:14,400
Speaker 1: but like how we started, how you engage in the

3111
03:08:14,400 --> 03:08:19,160
Speaker 1: struggle and just like what that looks like for building

3112
03:08:19,360 --> 03:08:22,080
Speaker 1: building something up from nothing to something like that's why

3113
03:08:22,400 --> 03:08:23,800
Speaker 1: that's what we you know what I mean, that's what

3114
03:08:23,840 --> 03:08:26,440
Speaker 1: we did. Yeah, from what I've seen, you all have

3115
03:08:26,440 --> 03:08:32,040
Speaker 1: been extremely effective like at at getting management to recognize it,

3116
03:08:32,120 --> 03:08:35,280
Speaker 1: but essentially getting them to like a seed to your

3117
03:08:35,320 --> 03:08:40,360
Speaker 1: demands because like this, this this kind of organizing like

3118
03:08:41,560 --> 03:08:43,280
Speaker 1: so solid you need what what I'm trying to say,

3119
03:08:43,280 --> 03:08:45,280
Speaker 1: this is all the area to unist works like it's

3120
03:08:45,320 --> 03:08:48,360
Speaker 1: not like like and you know and yeah, it's it's

3121
03:08:48,360 --> 03:08:49,720
Speaker 1: a thing. I think one of one of the things

3122
03:08:49,760 --> 03:08:52,640
Speaker 1: you're talking about it is like, yeah, it's like when

3123
03:08:52,879 --> 03:08:56,879
Speaker 1: like when you win even on something fairly small, right,

3124
03:08:56,920 --> 03:09:00,440
Speaker 1: and you can show people that this works and that

3125
03:09:01,280 --> 03:09:03,480
Speaker 1: like you know, if if, if, if you actually come

3126
03:09:03,520 --> 03:09:05,400
Speaker 1: together on something, you can force management to do stuff

3127
03:09:05,440 --> 03:09:09,240
Speaker 1: like I think that also become becomes an important sort

3128
03:09:09,280 --> 03:09:13,360
Speaker 1: of like I don't know if catalyst is the right word,

3129
03:09:13,400 --> 03:09:16,039
Speaker 1: but it becomes it becomes becomes an engine that like

3130
03:09:16,680 --> 03:09:24,000
Speaker 1: feeds itself definitely, I mean, especially for a big company

3131
03:09:24,040 --> 03:09:31,440
Speaker 1: like Amazon, like I think the most common perspective at

3132
03:09:31,520 --> 03:09:33,640
Speaker 1: least at the start is like, this is such a

3133
03:09:33,680 --> 03:09:35,640
Speaker 1: big company, Like, what could we possibly do? They have

3134
03:09:35,680 --> 03:09:38,480
Speaker 1: a thousand warehouses, like what you know, they could choose

3135
03:09:38,520 --> 03:09:40,800
Speaker 1: to close one and open another one, you know, they

3136
03:09:40,800 --> 03:09:44,640
Speaker 1: do this, or they could suddenly you know and with

3137
03:09:44,800 --> 03:09:47,800
Speaker 1: two weeks notice like change the schedule from an evening

3138
03:09:47,800 --> 03:09:51,680
Speaker 1: time to overnight time, which is what they did to us. Basically, Um,

3139
03:09:51,760 --> 03:09:54,160
Speaker 1: what can we possibly do? And so you know, but

3140
03:09:54,240 --> 03:09:58,360
Speaker 1: I think it's like the moment, it's like there's a

3141
03:09:59,640 --> 03:10:03,320
Speaker 1: a lift, uh what do you call like the watershed

3142
03:10:03,560 --> 03:10:06,000
Speaker 1: a point, like the moment you kind of take that

3143
03:10:06,080 --> 03:10:09,520
Speaker 1: first collective action and then get what you want. Um.

3144
03:10:09,760 --> 03:10:13,000
Speaker 1: It's like, oh wait, it's not as like within this

3145
03:10:13,080 --> 03:10:15,160
Speaker 1: space like we can actually make our lives a lot

3146
03:10:15,240 --> 03:10:21,120
Speaker 1: better pretty quickly. Yeah, we just come together and do

3147
03:10:21,240 --> 03:10:26,080
Speaker 1: it ourselves and recognize the power that we have. UM.

3148
03:10:26,240 --> 03:10:34,200
Speaker 1: And I think it's like mhm. That's one of the

3149
03:10:34,240 --> 03:10:39,880
Speaker 1: reasons why it works so well is because it is

3150
03:10:39,959 --> 03:10:47,320
Speaker 1: different from the mainstream approach, which UM bosses and these

3151
03:10:47,320 --> 03:10:51,640
Speaker 1: companies understand very well and can easily maneuver around, such as,

3152
03:10:51,959 --> 03:10:54,000
Speaker 1: oh if we do if if one of our managers

3153
03:10:54,040 --> 03:10:57,119
Speaker 1: does something wrong, what will happen next is will receive

3154
03:10:57,480 --> 03:10:59,720
Speaker 1: one of our lawyers, will receive a grievance from one

3155
03:10:59,760 --> 03:11:02,320
Speaker 1: of their representative lawyers, and you know, this business union,

3156
03:11:02,480 --> 03:11:04,600
Speaker 1: we'll have this many months respond and then we can

3157
03:11:04,640 --> 03:11:07,560
Speaker 1: do this and then you know, uh, we'll do this

3158
03:11:07,640 --> 03:11:09,640
Speaker 1: paperwork and have this legal back and forth and then

3159
03:11:10,160 --> 03:11:12,480
Speaker 1: maybe we'll address this issue six to twelve months down

3160
03:11:12,520 --> 03:11:17,080
Speaker 1: the line. UM, no disruption, you know, nothing to worry about. UM,

3161
03:11:17,520 --> 03:11:19,560
Speaker 1: Let the bosses run amuck and we'll get a six

3162
03:11:19,640 --> 03:11:22,120
Speaker 1: to twelve month ad start to you know, and maybe

3163
03:11:22,160 --> 03:11:23,640
Speaker 1: get a slap on the wrist and a fixed wherever

3164
03:11:23,680 --> 03:11:25,959
Speaker 1: you need to or pay a small fine. UM as

3165
03:11:26,000 --> 03:11:30,040
Speaker 1: opposed to that's business unions, like as opposed to Southern unism,

3166
03:11:30,040 --> 03:11:33,520
Speaker 1: where it's like they just disrespected us in a way

3167
03:11:33,560 --> 03:11:35,800
Speaker 1: that like we're not trying to put up with, Like

3168
03:11:35,879 --> 03:11:38,920
Speaker 1: we are hurting. We can't even finish the shift without

3169
03:11:39,000 --> 03:11:41,360
Speaker 1: hurting ourselves more. We're just gonna group up the walk

3170
03:11:41,360 --> 03:11:46,119
Speaker 1: out right now. UM, they're gonna figure out, they're gonna

3171
03:11:46,120 --> 03:11:47,800
Speaker 1: have to figure out how to get the rest of

3172
03:11:47,879 --> 03:11:51,160
Speaker 1: these packages out without us. UM. And when we come

3173
03:11:51,200 --> 03:11:55,200
Speaker 1: back tomorrow, Uh, we'll see, we'll see if they want

3174
03:11:55,240 --> 03:11:58,080
Speaker 1: to keep treating us the same way. UM. And so

3175
03:11:58,200 --> 03:12:01,400
Speaker 1: it's like to me, you know, we we've had basic

3176
03:12:02,160 --> 03:12:07,520
Speaker 1: basic management confrontations where either immediately uh you know, they

3177
03:12:07,520 --> 03:12:10,120
Speaker 1: were understaffing and we grouped up rolled into office just

3178
03:12:10,160 --> 03:12:13,080
Speaker 1: like with seven of us, not even like the whole shift, Um,

3179
03:12:13,160 --> 03:12:16,120
Speaker 1: seven out of fifty people rolling off and said you

3180
03:12:16,160 --> 03:12:17,840
Speaker 1: have too few people on the lines. You you need

3181
03:12:17,879 --> 03:12:20,560
Speaker 1: an add extra person. We've been asking you have it. Um,

3182
03:12:20,600 --> 03:12:23,360
Speaker 1: We've folded our arms. Within five minutes, they send an

3183
03:12:23,360 --> 03:12:27,560
Speaker 1: extra person over there, they're working the rest of the the shift. UM.

3184
03:12:27,680 --> 03:12:30,240
Speaker 1: In the in the business union approach, like I don't

3185
03:12:30,240 --> 03:12:33,520
Speaker 1: even know, like how you followed you know, understaffing grievance,

3186
03:12:33,600 --> 03:12:36,080
Speaker 1: Like what are the details? How does that happen? Does

3187
03:12:36,080 --> 03:12:38,960
Speaker 1: a union representative have to be contacted and then negotiate

3188
03:12:39,000 --> 03:12:42,240
Speaker 1: in some way? Um like that, Like let's just address

3189
03:12:42,280 --> 03:12:45,080
Speaker 1: this right now and fix it. UM. I don't want

3190
03:12:45,120 --> 03:12:48,920
Speaker 1: to wait for some outside activity. Let's just improve our

3191
03:12:48,920 --> 03:12:53,120
Speaker 1: working conditions right now, like confronting and addressing it. UM.

3192
03:12:53,720 --> 03:12:56,959
Speaker 1: I think it just you know that's something that Um,

3193
03:12:57,040 --> 03:13:02,360
Speaker 1: the bosses are less, it's less predictable for them, it's

3194
03:13:02,400 --> 03:13:06,640
Speaker 1: less in their control, it's less in their wheelhouse. Um,

3195
03:13:06,840 --> 03:13:10,200
Speaker 1: and I think that's a prey reason why it works better. Yeah,

3196
03:13:10,200 --> 03:13:11,680
Speaker 1: And I think one of one of the things the

3197
03:13:11,760 --> 03:13:13,480
Speaker 1: thing this reminds me of. It reminds me of the

3198
03:13:13,520 --> 03:13:14,960
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that unions used to do when they

3199
03:13:14,959 --> 03:13:17,240
Speaker 1: were strong, Like it reminds me of like, yeah, you're

3200
03:13:17,280 --> 03:13:19,360
Speaker 1: you're like c I O like sit down, strike right,

3201
03:13:19,360 --> 03:13:21,240
Speaker 1: it's like, well, okay, if if the manager is something

3202
03:13:21,240 --> 03:13:22,840
Speaker 1: we didn't we don't like so and blows a whistle,

3203
03:13:22,879 --> 03:13:25,720
Speaker 1: everyone sits down, and like it's like it's that that

3204
03:13:25,800 --> 03:13:28,480
Speaker 1: kind of not just sort of like way to go

3205
03:13:28,520 --> 03:13:32,800
Speaker 1: to the legal channels, but just just like I immediately

3206
03:13:32,879 --> 03:13:35,760
Speaker 1: taking action is like it's it's something that it's like

3207
03:13:35,760 --> 03:13:37,440
Speaker 1: it's it's something that works, and it's you know, like

3208
03:13:37,480 --> 03:13:39,800
Speaker 1: that that's that's the kind of stuff that like build

3209
03:13:39,840 --> 03:13:42,600
Speaker 1: you built the original like labor movement. And it's really

3210
03:13:42,600 --> 03:13:44,680
Speaker 1: interesting to me that, like because because I think there's

3211
03:13:44,680 --> 03:13:47,560
Speaker 1: a lot of like I think a lot of people

3212
03:13:47,600 --> 03:13:50,240
Speaker 1: look back at that era sort of like nostalgically and

3213
03:13:50,240 --> 03:13:52,360
Speaker 1: go like, well, Okay, if unions were stronger, we could

3214
03:13:52,360 --> 03:13:54,040
Speaker 1: do this, but like that's not really true. You you

3215
03:13:54,080 --> 03:13:57,520
Speaker 1: can't actually just like like you can do the same

3216
03:13:57,560 --> 03:14:00,240
Speaker 1: things that like, you know, you're like nineteen three c

3217
03:14:00,360 --> 03:14:02,959
Speaker 1: I O was doing like and and and if you

3218
03:14:02,959 --> 03:14:05,000
Speaker 1: know and you don't you don't need the kind of

3219
03:14:05,040 --> 03:14:08,680
Speaker 1: institutional backing that that those people had. If if like

3220
03:14:08,800 --> 03:14:12,199
Speaker 1: if if you're organized enough in your in your specific location,

3221
03:14:12,400 --> 03:14:14,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a really interesting I don't know, I'm

3222
03:14:15,000 --> 03:14:16,640
Speaker 1: curious if you agree with us. It seems like it's

3223
03:14:16,640 --> 03:14:20,080
Speaker 1: skord of interesting lesson about like what happens to the

3224
03:14:20,160 --> 03:14:24,840
Speaker 1: labor movement, where like the more the more you get

3225
03:14:24,879 --> 03:14:28,520
Speaker 1: into this sort of like okay, well the the union

3226
03:14:28,560 --> 03:14:31,400
Speaker 1: is now two lawyers sitting down with each other, right

3227
03:14:31,480 --> 03:14:33,920
Speaker 1: the what what you're doing basically is and then like

3228
03:14:34,040 --> 03:14:36,080
Speaker 1: this is this is this is explicitly what the National

3229
03:14:36,160 --> 03:14:38,480
Speaker 1: Labor Relations Act was, right Like it was an attempt

3230
03:14:38,520 --> 03:14:40,480
Speaker 1: to get labor, labor and capital sit down at the

3231
03:14:40,480 --> 03:14:43,440
Speaker 1: table and stop fighting so that they could like you know,

3232
03:14:43,560 --> 03:14:46,040
Speaker 1: basically Selft production could go on. And like some sometimes

3233
03:14:46,120 --> 03:14:48,240
Speaker 1: sometimes that that you know, sometimes I favor the union. Right,

3234
03:14:48,240 --> 03:14:50,520
Speaker 1: sometimes you'd have the president be like like the actual

3235
03:14:50,560 --> 03:14:53,440
Speaker 1: like US president would be like, okay, you come you

3236
03:14:53,640 --> 03:14:57,200
Speaker 1: like steal company. You have to like give workers what

3237
03:14:57,320 --> 03:15:00,280
Speaker 1: they're asking for because our steel production shut down, right,

3238
03:15:00,320 --> 03:15:02,800
Speaker 1: But like you know, the problem with that is that

3239
03:15:02,920 --> 03:15:06,760
Speaker 1: it's based on like it's based on at all costs

3240
03:15:06,800 --> 03:15:10,320
Speaker 1: trying to sort of preserve like it's based on cost

3241
03:15:10,360 --> 03:15:11,959
Speaker 1: like trying to preserve the labor peace. And you know,

3242
03:15:12,000 --> 03:15:14,160
Speaker 1: I mean there's reasons for that too, Like yeah, like

3243
03:15:14,240 --> 03:15:17,960
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna like like obviously there's there's any time

3244
03:15:18,000 --> 03:15:20,360
Speaker 1: you take a direct action, there's a risk and yeah,

3245
03:15:20,400 --> 03:15:23,119
Speaker 1: like I'm not gonna like, you know, I'm not gonna

3246
03:15:23,160 --> 03:15:27,039
Speaker 1: be like like it's it's hard to be really mad

3247
03:15:27,080 --> 03:15:29,600
Speaker 1: at people who don't want to go on strike because

3248
03:15:29,840 --> 03:15:32,400
Speaker 1: they don't like because you know, how how am I

3249
03:15:32,400 --> 03:15:36,040
Speaker 1: going to defeat my family? Etcetera, etcetera. But like you know,

3250
03:15:36,360 --> 03:15:41,000
Speaker 1: bringing like having that kind of militancy in the workplace,

3251
03:15:41,560 --> 03:15:44,560
Speaker 1: just you know, without without any kind of formal recognition,

3252
03:15:45,760 --> 03:15:48,039
Speaker 1: I think is an extremely powerful tactic. And is I

3253
03:15:48,040 --> 03:15:50,600
Speaker 1: mean literally how the original labor movement like got built.

3254
03:15:53,440 --> 03:15:56,720
Speaker 1: It's difficult, though, and it can be yeah, yeah, you know,

3255
03:15:56,800 --> 03:16:02,480
Speaker 1: and it's like I think you you posed kind of

3256
03:16:02,520 --> 03:16:07,560
Speaker 1: the question or or or kind of questioning the idea

3257
03:16:07,640 --> 03:16:11,920
Speaker 1: like where did how did the labor movement get to

3258
03:16:12,000 --> 03:16:17,000
Speaker 1: where it's at if the origins were more conscious Um,

3259
03:16:17,040 --> 03:16:25,320
Speaker 1: in the ways that you've been describing UM, I think that. UM.

3260
03:16:25,360 --> 03:16:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's definitely you know, the risk is

3261
03:16:29,280 --> 03:16:34,880
Speaker 1: always there. You're always confronting the power. I mean in

3262
03:16:34,920 --> 03:16:37,560
Speaker 1: the workplace when it comes down to it, like obviously

3263
03:16:37,600 --> 03:16:43,240
Speaker 1: the power dynamics shift, and it's more complex than you know,

3264
03:16:43,320 --> 03:16:46,400
Speaker 1: Bosses have more power than workers unless workers organized and

3265
03:16:46,440 --> 03:16:49,119
Speaker 1: workers have more power than bosses. That is true. And

3266
03:16:49,160 --> 03:16:52,160
Speaker 1: also for example, on the day to day, you know,

3267
03:16:52,280 --> 03:16:57,039
Speaker 1: the boss can fire anyone and then you're you know,

3268
03:16:58,280 --> 03:17:02,520
Speaker 1: however you end up dealing with it. Uh, you know,

3269
03:17:02,680 --> 03:17:06,520
Speaker 1: you could be out anywhere between two or twenty paychecks

3270
03:17:06,560 --> 03:17:10,480
Speaker 1: until something is resolved legally or even through direct Actually

3271
03:17:10,640 --> 03:17:18,800
Speaker 1: there's obviously very directly oppressive power dynamic there. UM. And

3272
03:17:20,120 --> 03:17:26,200
Speaker 1: I think that UM. To speak truth to power, to

3273
03:17:26,400 --> 03:17:31,560
Speaker 1: directly confronted UM. Of course, it's frightening. I mean I

3274
03:17:32,000 --> 03:17:35,840
Speaker 1: would be lying if you know, like I'm I'm you know,

3275
03:17:35,920 --> 03:17:39,000
Speaker 1: talking on this on this podcast about doing this and yeah,

3276
03:17:39,040 --> 03:17:41,240
Speaker 1: we're doing this, and like you know, I'm not gonna

3277
03:17:41,280 --> 03:17:43,200
Speaker 1: pretend that like when we were even when we were

3278
03:17:43,240 --> 03:17:47,680
Speaker 1: in a forty person mass, you know, confronting management, addressing

3279
03:17:47,920 --> 03:17:51,240
Speaker 1: everyone together. It's still like, you know, there's there's there's

3280
03:17:51,280 --> 03:17:54,640
Speaker 1: still this power dynamic here and we're punching up like

3281
03:17:55,160 --> 03:17:57,600
Speaker 1: it's a punch, but like we're punging up to someone

3282
03:17:57,640 --> 03:18:02,440
Speaker 1: that's like a bigger, heavier uh um adversary. And so

3283
03:18:02,480 --> 03:18:05,280
Speaker 1: it's like they could swing back to like you gotta

3284
03:18:05,400 --> 03:18:10,920
Speaker 1: gotta be ready to and so UM. I think that

3285
03:18:11,800 --> 03:18:14,920
Speaker 1: what I'm describing on a kind of like face to

3286
03:18:15,000 --> 03:18:20,480
Speaker 1: face interpersonal, that moment in the workplace, I think on

3287
03:18:20,520 --> 03:18:23,800
Speaker 1: a broader scale also exists where it's like waging an

3288
03:18:23,800 --> 03:18:29,879
Speaker 1: extended you know, organizing struggle to be fighting this fight

3289
03:18:30,360 --> 03:18:33,560
Speaker 1: millions of times in many different ways and then continually

3290
03:18:33,600 --> 03:18:35,879
Speaker 1: trying to bring people together. You know, people move on

3291
03:18:35,959 --> 03:18:40,200
Speaker 1: because everything that's happening in life. They got evicted from

3292
03:18:40,200 --> 03:18:41,640
Speaker 1: their place, so they had to move to a different

3293
03:18:41,640 --> 03:18:43,840
Speaker 1: place far away. Okay, suddenly they had to leave a job,

3294
03:18:43,879 --> 03:18:46,080
Speaker 1: and they were someone that was contributing a lot to

3295
03:18:46,080 --> 03:18:49,520
Speaker 1: the organizing. Something happened. Someone has a family member that

3296
03:18:49,720 --> 03:18:51,160
Speaker 1: uh you know that thing you need to spend a

3297
03:18:51,160 --> 03:18:55,400
Speaker 1: little bit more time with. Um. Everything that's happening. Everything

3298
03:18:55,480 --> 03:19:00,960
Speaker 1: that's making you know, reducing our time as working people

3299
03:19:00,959 --> 03:19:03,199
Speaker 1: to take care of ourselves and each other, like all

3300
03:19:03,240 --> 03:19:09,039
Speaker 1: of this. We're fighting against all of this, and um,

3301
03:19:09,080 --> 03:19:12,280
Speaker 1: they're definitely ups and downs. They're definitely times it was

3302
03:19:12,360 --> 03:19:15,520
Speaker 1: like thing like where you know, and then it seems

3303
03:19:15,560 --> 03:19:19,560
Speaker 1: I get times, Uh, all of the struggles and life

3304
03:19:20,080 --> 03:19:22,440
Speaker 1: like it's like you take like two steps forward and

3305
03:19:22,440 --> 03:19:26,480
Speaker 1: then two steps backwards. Get that, and so you know,

3306
03:19:26,560 --> 03:19:32,760
Speaker 1: there's definitely a difficult reality permeating everything. You know, all

3307
03:19:32,800 --> 03:19:37,160
Speaker 1: of the organizing winds, the advents that we're talking about.

3308
03:19:37,800 --> 03:19:41,080
Speaker 1: We need to be fully honest about that and also

3309
03:19:41,959 --> 03:19:46,560
Speaker 1: recognize that there's still like nothing more. There's like nothing

3310
03:19:46,600 --> 03:19:50,400
Speaker 1: more beautiful powerful, There's there's no there's nothing that feels

3311
03:19:50,480 --> 03:19:55,760
Speaker 1: better than that moment when you when the power dynamic

3312
03:19:55,840 --> 03:19:58,160
Speaker 1: was like this and you pull something off and it's

3313
03:19:58,200 --> 03:20:02,280
Speaker 1: like like, oh, like you you just did what we

3314
03:20:02,360 --> 03:20:06,360
Speaker 1: wanted you know and more and then now like you're

3315
03:20:06,360 --> 03:20:09,840
Speaker 1: being real careful with us, like we we change things here,

3316
03:20:09,879 --> 03:20:15,080
Speaker 1: like our lives are better concretely, um, and we made

3317
03:20:15,080 --> 03:20:18,440
Speaker 1: it happen, and uh, you know, I think those are

3318
03:20:18,480 --> 03:20:23,199
Speaker 1: like celebrating the winds and like taking joy, not always

3319
03:20:23,200 --> 03:20:25,240
Speaker 1: thinking so far, Okay, we've got more to go. Yeah,

3320
03:20:25,280 --> 03:20:28,800
Speaker 1: they're always there's always more that um, we can and

3321
03:20:28,840 --> 03:20:32,199
Speaker 1: have to be building. And let's make sure that we're

3322
03:20:32,280 --> 03:20:36,120
Speaker 1: taking the time to recognize, um and celebrate each of

3323
03:20:36,160 --> 03:20:41,560
Speaker 1: the steps that we are UM advancing, so that you know,

3324
03:20:42,080 --> 03:20:46,760
Speaker 1: we we don't get lost in you know, assuming in

3325
03:20:46,840 --> 03:20:51,320
Speaker 1: the cycle of like seeking permanent infinite growth and organizing

3326
03:20:51,440 --> 03:20:54,160
Speaker 1: and being constantly stressed out about it, rather than like

3327
03:20:54,280 --> 03:20:57,039
Speaker 1: taking those breathers, taking those moments. Okay, like let's take

3328
03:20:57,080 --> 03:21:00,480
Speaker 1: this and strive, let's do this sustainable, let's not burn out. UM.

3329
03:21:00,560 --> 03:21:04,320
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's all part of figuring out

3330
03:21:04,320 --> 03:21:08,200
Speaker 1: how to how to how to make it happen. Yeah,

3331
03:21:08,200 --> 03:21:11,400
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's an important I think that

3332
03:21:11,400 --> 03:21:14,640
Speaker 1: that's an important thing to understand with any kind of organizing,

3333
03:21:14,840 --> 03:21:19,119
Speaker 1: which is that like yeah, if if if you like

3334
03:21:19,280 --> 03:21:21,800
Speaker 1: if if if if, there's never sort of a moment

3335
03:21:21,879 --> 03:21:24,160
Speaker 1: in which you're reflecting on or sort of or just

3336
03:21:24,160 --> 03:21:27,800
Speaker 1: celebrating like that the goals that you've actually accomplished, Right,

3337
03:21:27,800 --> 03:21:29,560
Speaker 1: you're just going to sort of be endlessly bashing your

3338
03:21:29,560 --> 03:21:32,640
Speaker 1: head against the wall. And you know that this is

3339
03:21:32,680 --> 03:21:34,040
Speaker 1: this is like, yeah, I mean this is this is

3340
03:21:34,080 --> 03:21:36,800
Speaker 1: sort of a burnout machine. This is a a way

3341
03:21:36,840 --> 03:21:39,080
Speaker 1: that you know, it's something that also just sort of

3342
03:21:39,360 --> 03:21:43,039
Speaker 1: feeds despair, which is that yeah, like you know, like yeah, okay,

3343
03:21:43,040 --> 03:21:45,480
Speaker 1: your your victory is a small victory, but it is

3344
03:21:45,520 --> 03:21:50,000
Speaker 1: a real one. And that's that's something that even in

3345
03:21:50,000 --> 03:21:53,320
Speaker 1: the face of sort of like the Cyclopean horror of

3346
03:21:53,360 --> 03:21:56,080
Speaker 1: like just the world that we're living in, like no,

3347
03:21:56,720 --> 03:21:59,440
Speaker 1: your your small victories dude lead up to bigger ones

3348
03:22:00,160 --> 03:22:03,360
Speaker 1: and yeah, and you know, and getting people to lose

3349
03:22:03,400 --> 03:22:06,320
Speaker 1: sight of that is a like it's it's in made

3350
03:22:06,320 --> 03:22:08,800
Speaker 1: your way. The system is held together by just sort

3351
03:22:08,840 --> 03:22:12,200
Speaker 1: of like manufacturing hopelessness, even when there there there are

3352
03:22:12,280 --> 03:22:15,760
Speaker 1: reasons for hoping, there are reasons to sort of look

3353
03:22:15,760 --> 03:22:17,720
Speaker 1: at what you've done and go, hey, we we won

3354
03:22:17,800 --> 03:22:24,360
Speaker 1: this thing. Definitely, Yeah, I think that's a I guess

3355
03:22:24,440 --> 03:22:28,040
Speaker 1: unexpectedly cheery for this show. I know, to end on

3356
03:22:28,560 --> 03:22:34,920
Speaker 1: do you have anything else? Yeah, I mean I think

3357
03:22:34,959 --> 03:22:38,600
Speaker 1: we touched on a lot um. I guess I have

3358
03:22:39,160 --> 03:22:43,440
Speaker 1: a usual pits or some version of it um, But

3359
03:22:44,120 --> 03:22:53,560
Speaker 1: I think um, maybe something to bring together different elements

3360
03:22:53,560 --> 03:22:58,400
Speaker 1: that we touched on and bringing some of the sheery,

3361
03:22:58,560 --> 03:23:02,840
Speaker 1: hopefulness and all so put out some encouragement too. I

3362
03:23:02,879 --> 03:23:06,879
Speaker 1: think now is a time where there's a whole lot

3363
03:23:06,920 --> 03:23:09,880
Speaker 1: of uncertainty and I'm uh you know, definitely and a

3364
03:23:10,760 --> 03:23:14,160
Speaker 1: global week to week or year to year scale, but

3365
03:23:14,200 --> 03:23:16,120
Speaker 1: also on an individual level. I think a lot of

3366
03:23:16,400 --> 03:23:21,560
Speaker 1: individuals right now, UM likely those that are listening UM,

3367
03:23:21,600 --> 03:23:24,760
Speaker 1: that that end up listening to this or um those

3368
03:23:24,760 --> 03:23:26,680
Speaker 1: that are like seeing what's happening around the worlds like,

3369
03:23:26,720 --> 03:23:28,879
Speaker 1: what is my role in all of this? What am

3370
03:23:28,879 --> 03:23:32,039
Speaker 1: I trying to do? Different people are joining different organizations

3371
03:23:32,320 --> 03:23:35,680
Speaker 1: and and and trying to figure out how they should

3372
03:23:35,720 --> 03:23:38,000
Speaker 1: be living their lives, what the what principles they should

3373
03:23:38,000 --> 03:23:39,880
Speaker 1: be living out, how they should be applying themselves to

3374
03:23:40,560 --> 03:23:46,760
Speaker 1: for example, UM, combat and dismantle UM, I don't know,

3375
03:23:47,480 --> 03:23:52,279
Speaker 1: uh capitalism and and and uh you know, the prison

3376
03:23:52,320 --> 03:23:58,360
Speaker 1: industrial complex and reverse climate destruction and find fascism and

3377
03:23:58,800 --> 03:24:01,840
Speaker 1: everything all of examples existential threats that we face. It's like, what,

3378
03:24:02,160 --> 03:24:06,760
Speaker 1: you know, what is my role? And I think, UM,

3379
03:24:06,920 --> 03:24:17,240
Speaker 1: if if you at all have the capacity and curiosity,

3380
03:24:18,160 --> 03:24:24,039
Speaker 1: UM two, engage in some of this deep work yourself

3381
03:24:24,200 --> 03:24:30,400
Speaker 1: for building community relationships, culture among UM. You know, just

3382
03:24:30,959 --> 03:24:34,400
Speaker 1: with workers, build building your own organization, building your own

3383
03:24:34,840 --> 03:24:38,400
Speaker 1: acts of resistance, building your own forms of of of

3384
03:24:38,800 --> 03:24:42,119
Speaker 1: you know, own forms of reclaiming your time and and

3385
03:24:42,440 --> 03:24:46,000
Speaker 1: minds and bodies, and build something beautiful that can you know,

3386
03:24:46,040 --> 03:24:48,720
Speaker 1: be part of a broader movement that that you know,

3387
03:24:49,160 --> 03:24:52,920
Speaker 1: lifts up working people, that kind of gets back what

3388
03:24:52,959 --> 03:24:56,280
Speaker 1: we are building and what we what we deserve. UM.

3389
03:24:56,560 --> 03:24:59,840
Speaker 1: You know, think about think about the logistics and the

3390
03:25:00,040 --> 03:25:04,040
Speaker 1: three think about warehouse work, UM, think about joining in

3391
03:25:04,600 --> 03:25:09,680
Speaker 1: UM and UH you know it's uh, it's hard work.

3392
03:25:09,760 --> 03:25:14,640
Speaker 1: It's hard manual labor, it's hard mental and emotional work. UM.

3393
03:25:14,680 --> 03:25:23,560
Speaker 1: But I think this is the future of what the winning,

3394
03:25:24,080 --> 03:25:31,320
Speaker 1: fighting uh successful labor movement UM will need. UM. And

3395
03:25:31,360 --> 03:25:35,840
Speaker 1: I think many people engaging and building more genuine, more

3396
03:25:35,879 --> 03:25:41,760
Speaker 1: worker focus, worker centered, worker run UH solidarity unions of

3397
03:25:41,879 --> 03:25:48,280
Speaker 1: our own democratic horizontal bottom up UM. I think building

3398
03:25:48,360 --> 03:25:50,200
Speaker 1: this way and connecting with each other, I think this

3399
03:25:50,320 --> 03:25:52,920
Speaker 1: is the way forward. I think this is the examples

3400
03:25:53,000 --> 03:25:56,000
Speaker 1: that we need. We need more people engaging in this work.

3401
03:25:56,040 --> 03:26:01,879
Speaker 1: We need more uh, more of that tension, energy and focus,

3402
03:26:01,920 --> 03:26:05,200
Speaker 1: Like how do we build the real stuff? UM, that's

3403
03:26:05,240 --> 03:26:11,560
Speaker 1: gonna be the powerful organizational influence to transform society and

3404
03:26:11,720 --> 03:26:17,359
Speaker 1: and avert these forms of extinction and continued extraction, exploitation,

3405
03:26:17,680 --> 03:26:23,280
Speaker 1: oppression of all of us. UM, join us, Join, join

3406
03:26:23,360 --> 03:26:26,280
Speaker 1: the struggle, get get some of these jobs. Talk to

3407
03:26:26,280 --> 03:26:31,080
Speaker 1: your co workers, build something that. It's really that simple. UM.

3408
03:26:31,920 --> 03:26:39,320
Speaker 1: And uh, yeah, that's my that's my every day pitch. UM. So,

3409
03:26:39,440 --> 03:26:42,800
Speaker 1: if if people want to find Amazonians United specifically, where

3410
03:26:42,840 --> 03:26:47,560
Speaker 1: where where can they find y'all? UM? So in Chicago.

3411
03:26:47,840 --> 03:26:53,160
Speaker 1: So Amazonians United Chicago Land UM is our name. We

3412
03:26:53,200 --> 03:26:56,360
Speaker 1: have a Facebook page, we have a Twitter. UM. Those

3413
03:26:56,360 --> 03:27:02,080
Speaker 1: are probably where we're most active, UM, and where you

3414
03:27:02,120 --> 03:27:04,959
Speaker 1: can follow and get into contact with us. Tweet out us,

3415
03:27:05,200 --> 03:27:11,320
Speaker 1: message us on Facebook. UM. If you're really so inclined, UM,

3416
03:27:11,360 --> 03:27:15,760
Speaker 1: you can email us at a you Chicago land at

3417
03:27:15,800 --> 03:27:19,560
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. UM. But otherwise, yeah, just look up,

3418
03:27:19,800 --> 03:27:22,240
Speaker 1: you know, follow our social media. You'll see what we

3419
03:27:22,320 --> 03:27:26,400
Speaker 1: post occasionally about what's going on. UM, and uh, you know,

3420
03:27:26,480 --> 03:27:29,560
Speaker 1: feel free to reach out, get into contact, ask any

3421
03:27:29,640 --> 03:27:33,160
Speaker 1: questions you might have, UM, and you know, let's connect,

3422
03:27:33,200 --> 03:27:36,959
Speaker 1: let's build community. Yeah, and that's that's a Chicagoland at

3423
03:27:37,000 --> 03:27:42,360
Speaker 1: a Chicago Land on Twitter. By the way, yeah. Um yeah,

3424
03:27:42,440 --> 03:27:45,000
Speaker 1: sweet Ted, thank you, thank you so thank you so

3425
03:27:45,080 --> 03:27:48,680
Speaker 1: much for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah,

3426
03:27:48,720 --> 03:27:51,600
Speaker 1: that's really great. Um yeah, if you want to find

3427
03:27:52,520 --> 03:27:56,440
Speaker 1: us at you can find us at Happened here a

3428
03:27:56,480 --> 03:28:00,200
Speaker 1: pod on Twitter, Instagram and coos on media in the

3429
03:28:00,280 --> 03:28:04,200
Speaker 1: same places. Um yeah, go go go work nice with

3430
03:28:04,240 --> 03:28:06,680
Speaker 1: your coworkers, go do cool things, go be do all

3431
03:28:06,720 --> 03:28:14,080
Speaker 1: a better place. Yes, yes, yes, sure, um yeah, thank you,

3432
03:28:14,840 --> 03:28:32,800
Speaker 1: thank you, arned, arned me arties. This is me doing

3433
03:28:32,840 --> 03:28:36,240
Speaker 1: a priorate voice, which is kind of a bad, bad

3434
03:28:36,280 --> 03:28:40,440
Speaker 1: Irish voice. That's enough. That's enough of that. Um, hi,

3435
03:28:40,560 --> 03:28:42,080
Speaker 1: welcome to take it oppen here in the show where

3436
03:28:42,080 --> 03:28:45,800
Speaker 1: we're talking about things that could possibly happen and or

3437
03:28:46,080 --> 03:28:50,400
Speaker 1: are happening, and go your hartsed l D. I'm Carrison.

3438
03:28:51,120 --> 03:28:54,560
Speaker 1: Welcome to this tech centric episode. This is very exciting

3439
03:28:55,080 --> 03:28:59,600
Speaker 1: with me, is Chris to help us discuss libraries and

3440
03:29:00,000 --> 03:29:05,480
Speaker 1: a racy argent brain and and pay walls and all

3441
03:29:05,520 --> 03:29:08,720
Speaker 1: this all this fun stuff. So yeah, we're talking about

3442
03:29:08,760 --> 03:29:12,520
Speaker 1: kind of free access to information and uh, I don't know,

3443
03:29:12,680 --> 03:29:15,920
Speaker 1: like I really like libraries and I think a library

3444
03:29:15,959 --> 03:29:19,360
Speaker 1: based economy would be pretty cool. Yeah, you know, libraries

3445
03:29:19,400 --> 03:29:23,879
Speaker 1: for everything. Uh, food libraries you to take food, need

3446
03:29:23,879 --> 03:29:28,160
Speaker 1: a deposit compost um with the decent, decent system. Got

3447
03:29:28,160 --> 03:29:31,240
Speaker 1: the tool libraries so you can get you know, your

3448
03:29:31,240 --> 03:29:34,320
Speaker 1: angle grinders for taking apart in federal fences. You can

3449
03:29:34,360 --> 03:29:37,240
Speaker 1: get your you know, soldering irons for building your f

3450
03:29:37,360 --> 03:29:39,480
Speaker 1: GC nines, you know, all all of all of the

3451
03:29:39,480 --> 03:29:43,240
Speaker 1: basic stuff. And I guess book libraries are cool too, um,

3452
03:29:43,320 --> 03:29:45,160
Speaker 1: But we already have those, and we're gonna be We're

3453
03:29:45,160 --> 03:29:47,039
Speaker 1: gonna be talking with them a little bit. Where are

3454
03:29:47,120 --> 03:29:51,320
Speaker 1: we having a discussion on pay walls, piracy, ar and

3455
03:29:51,440 --> 03:29:55,400
Speaker 1: uh and how access to information is actually good? Um,

3456
03:29:55,520 --> 03:29:58,080
Speaker 1: contrary to what many people want to tell you. Yeah,

3457
03:29:58,080 --> 03:30:04,240
Speaker 1: I know though. Yeah. As a as the Internet became

3458
03:30:04,280 --> 03:30:08,960
Speaker 1: easier to access and information flow accelerated, there's been kind

3459
03:30:09,000 --> 03:30:14,039
Speaker 1: of questions and speculation on how physical book libraries will

3460
03:30:14,040 --> 03:30:18,400
Speaker 1: fit into our increasingly digital media landscape. Now, it's important

3461
03:30:18,400 --> 03:30:20,440
Speaker 1: to mention that the library is also one of the

3462
03:30:20,440 --> 03:30:23,880
Speaker 1: main ways for lower income people to access the internet

3463
03:30:24,520 --> 03:30:26,680
Speaker 1: UM with their you know collection of free to use

3464
03:30:26,720 --> 03:30:30,600
Speaker 1: computers as well as you know, a decent WiFi connection UM.

3465
03:30:30,680 --> 03:30:34,160
Speaker 1: And many many libraries also are expanding their scope to

3466
03:30:34,240 --> 03:30:37,160
Speaker 1: include stuff like maker spaces as well as you know,

3467
03:30:37,240 --> 03:30:41,760
Speaker 1: their printers and standard kind of office supplies. So libraries

3468
03:30:41,760 --> 03:30:45,200
Speaker 1: are already kind of beyond just places to get printed media.

3469
03:30:45,480 --> 03:30:47,240
Speaker 1: But of course it is that is kind of their

3470
03:30:47,440 --> 03:30:49,959
Speaker 1: one that has been their main their main premise. But

3471
03:30:50,040 --> 03:30:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, they've been, they've been including stuff regarding e books,

3472
03:30:54,360 --> 03:30:56,760
Speaker 1: computer use, WiFi access, all the stuff has been a

3473
03:30:56,800 --> 03:31:01,360
Speaker 1: part of libraries for like the past twenty years. Of Yeah,

3474
03:31:01,480 --> 03:31:03,080
Speaker 1: like it's it's not. It's not. It's not. It's not.

3475
03:31:03,160 --> 03:31:04,800
Speaker 1: It's not a new thing. But I think when when

3476
03:31:04,800 --> 03:31:07,160
Speaker 1: people think of libraries, we just think of books, are

3477
03:31:07,280 --> 03:31:09,879
Speaker 1: newspapers and stuff, but it is, it is definitely more

3478
03:31:09,920 --> 03:31:13,039
Speaker 1: than that. Because yeah, obviously physical libraries are mostly known

3479
03:31:13,040 --> 03:31:16,400
Speaker 1: for printing materials, and because we'll be talking about paywalls

3480
03:31:16,520 --> 03:31:21,039
Speaker 1: and piracy are um and and fears that access to

3481
03:31:21,080 --> 03:31:24,840
Speaker 1: free content will negatively impact creator's ability to make such content,

3482
03:31:25,280 --> 03:31:28,039
Speaker 1: I figured let's start by talking about book libraries, since

3483
03:31:28,080 --> 03:31:31,320
Speaker 1: they're one of the oldest examples of providing information for free.

3484
03:31:32,080 --> 03:31:35,600
Speaker 1: So based on kind of surveys and data collected from

3485
03:31:35,800 --> 03:31:38,960
Speaker 1: you from library users across the country, it would seem

3486
03:31:39,080 --> 03:31:42,600
Speaker 1: that libraries and loaned e books are actually a very

3487
03:31:42,640 --> 03:31:46,640
Speaker 1: powerful economic engine for the book business. Now, yes, libraries

3488
03:31:46,680 --> 03:31:48,720
Speaker 1: do have special deals to buy the books that you

3489
03:31:48,800 --> 03:31:52,960
Speaker 1: have in stock. Sometimes they're donated. But even beyond that fact,

3490
03:31:53,160 --> 03:31:56,440
Speaker 1: like library users, like the fact that libraries exist for

3491
03:31:56,520 --> 03:32:00,960
Speaker 1: the users in and of themselves, increase book sales. Um,

3492
03:32:01,000 --> 03:32:04,440
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's it's pretty fun. So even as

3493
03:32:04,480 --> 03:32:07,920
Speaker 1: far back as there's been studies that show that libraries

3494
03:32:08,040 --> 03:32:10,920
Speaker 1: do increase book sales. Now, yes, this is this is

3495
03:32:11,120 --> 03:32:15,039
Speaker 1: this is a capitalist argument. But sometimes when arguing with

3496
03:32:15,160 --> 03:32:17,600
Speaker 1: let's you know, let's call them normies, Um, you can

3497
03:32:17,640 --> 03:32:19,440
Speaker 1: convince them to agree with a lot of kind of

3498
03:32:19,480 --> 03:32:23,800
Speaker 1: like anarchy leaning improvements to the world by carefully using

3499
03:32:23,840 --> 03:32:25,959
Speaker 1: their own rhetoric against them. Right, this is this is

3500
03:32:26,000 --> 03:32:28,920
Speaker 1: like the same thing with the giving out free drugs

3501
03:32:28,959 --> 03:32:32,800
Speaker 1: and having safe drug in in like intake sites, and

3502
03:32:32,920 --> 03:32:34,920
Speaker 1: giving your houses to homeless people, you know, all all

3503
03:32:34,920 --> 03:32:37,080
Speaker 1: the type of stuff. You know, all of those things

3504
03:32:37,160 --> 03:32:40,080
Speaker 1: are cheaper for the taxpayers than what we're currently doing

3505
03:32:40,120 --> 03:32:42,720
Speaker 1: with how we use emergencies, like how for how we

3506
03:32:42,800 --> 03:32:46,440
Speaker 1: use emergency services spending. So, yes, it's a capitalist argument,

3507
03:32:46,600 --> 03:32:48,840
Speaker 1: but you can still kind of you know, paint someone

3508
03:32:48,920 --> 03:32:52,800
Speaker 1: into a corner to agree that like actual good improvements

3509
03:32:53,000 --> 03:32:55,840
Speaker 1: by using hey, this is actually cheaper, you know that

3510
03:32:55,840 --> 03:32:59,960
Speaker 1: that type of argument. So yeah, libraries, they do increase

3511
03:33:00,000 --> 03:33:02,959
Speaker 1: book sales, so that is mostly cool. There is there

3512
03:33:03,000 --> 03:33:05,400
Speaker 1: was a study that shows around this is studying around

3513
03:33:06,680 --> 03:33:10,279
Speaker 1: showed that library users report purchasing books by an author

3514
03:33:10,520 --> 03:33:13,720
Speaker 1: that they were introduced to through the library system, which

3515
03:33:13,800 --> 03:33:16,520
Speaker 1: debunks the myth that want a library bias books the

3516
03:33:16,560 --> 03:33:20,440
Speaker 1: publisher will lose future sales. Um. Instead, it confirms that

3517
03:33:20,800 --> 03:33:24,000
Speaker 1: the public library does not only incubate and support literacy

3518
03:33:24,400 --> 03:33:26,560
Speaker 1: as it's you know, generally understood in our culture, but

3519
03:33:26,600 --> 03:33:29,879
Speaker 1: it's also an active partner with the publishing industry for

3520
03:33:30,080 --> 03:33:33,280
Speaker 1: building up the book market and also including in that

3521
03:33:33,640 --> 03:33:36,960
Speaker 1: is the ever growing e book market, which I don't

3522
03:33:36,959 --> 03:33:39,320
Speaker 1: really like the books for reasons will kind of discuss

3523
03:33:39,400 --> 03:33:41,000
Speaker 1: in a bit for how I kind of have an

3524
03:33:41,000 --> 03:33:44,600
Speaker 1: aversion to the idea of like digital ownership, But the

3525
03:33:44,760 --> 03:33:49,120
Speaker 1: books are undeniably a very growing industry that also you know,

3526
03:33:49,240 --> 03:33:53,680
Speaker 1: does does support writers in a lot of ways. Um.

3527
03:33:53,720 --> 03:33:56,200
Speaker 1: But I think physical books are a lot cooler and

3528
03:33:56,320 --> 03:33:59,320
Speaker 1: more reliable. They are, as you can tell by my

3529
03:33:59,480 --> 03:34:02,080
Speaker 1: very nice physical book collection behind me, which you cannot

3530
03:34:02,120 --> 03:34:04,320
Speaker 1: listen to because this is a podcast and you can't

3531
03:34:04,320 --> 03:34:06,800
Speaker 1: listen with your ears unless you're on a lot of drugs,

3532
03:34:06,879 --> 03:34:09,960
Speaker 1: which good luck hearing the books behind me. People who

3533
03:34:09,959 --> 03:34:14,960
Speaker 1: listen to Yeah you too, but yeah, I'm not. I'm

3534
03:34:15,000 --> 03:34:18,920
Speaker 1: not talking about them. Um, this is an anti people

3535
03:34:18,959 --> 03:34:24,280
Speaker 1: who have jug induced cynthesia podcast. Now, Lucky Bastard's gonna

3536
03:34:24,320 --> 03:34:31,879
Speaker 1: get canceled. Oh yeah, that's what's gonna get me after all. Well,

3537
03:34:31,920 --> 03:34:36,039
Speaker 1: bleep that I can't belave you said that? Whoa Chris

3538
03:34:36,120 --> 03:34:38,560
Speaker 1: just said one of the just one of the most,

3539
03:34:39,080 --> 03:34:41,320
Speaker 1: one of the most one of the most horrible authors

3540
03:34:41,360 --> 03:34:43,200
Speaker 1: that I would never be caught dead reading any of

3541
03:34:43,240 --> 03:34:50,600
Speaker 1: their books. Um anyway. Ah So, the idea that like

3542
03:34:50,720 --> 03:34:56,480
Speaker 1: piracy and free information will like tank creative industries, and

3543
03:34:56,520 --> 03:34:58,960
Speaker 1: you know, the idea that you know, just having access

3544
03:34:59,000 --> 03:35:02,600
Speaker 1: to free version of media will hurt the ability to

3545
03:35:02,680 --> 03:35:06,119
Speaker 1: make more of the media is definitely proven wrong simply

3546
03:35:06,240 --> 03:35:10,840
Speaker 1: by the modern existence and popularity of nume uh in

3547
03:35:10,879 --> 03:35:14,560
Speaker 1: the United States, because we would not have anime Animal

3548
03:35:14,560 --> 03:35:17,760
Speaker 1: would not be what it is today without piracy. Uh

3549
03:35:17,800 --> 03:35:20,400
Speaker 1: and uh because in the in the specifically like two

3550
03:35:20,440 --> 03:35:24,320
Speaker 1: thousands late nineties, the piracy of anime became you know,

3551
03:35:24,720 --> 03:35:27,440
Speaker 1: big massive reason why it is the cultural jugg or

3552
03:35:27,480 --> 03:35:30,360
Speaker 1: not that it is. Today over half of nime related

3553
03:35:30,440 --> 03:35:34,640
Speaker 1: sales revenue comes from overseas, not not Japan, it comes

3554
03:35:34,640 --> 03:35:37,200
Speaker 1: from places like the States. Yeah, and you know, and

3555
03:35:37,240 --> 03:35:40,160
Speaker 1: it's also I think worth mentioning here, Like it wasn't

3556
03:35:40,200 --> 03:35:43,000
Speaker 1: even just that they were like pirating the show, right,

3557
03:35:43,000 --> 03:35:45,920
Speaker 1: they were pirating they were getting a worse version of it,

3558
03:35:46,120 --> 03:35:51,040
Speaker 1: oh because like you know, yeah, terrible resolutions like I

3559
03:35:51,080 --> 03:35:54,440
Speaker 1: mean literally like VCRs that people had figured out how

3560
03:35:54,480 --> 03:35:58,119
Speaker 1: to like right like get subtitles on. Like these versions

3561
03:35:58,120 --> 03:35:59,959
Speaker 1: of it are terrible. The translations are awful, and it's

3562
03:36:00,080 --> 03:36:05,480
Speaker 1: still just like absolutely like just catapulted anime from like

3563
03:36:05,720 --> 03:36:08,320
Speaker 1: an incredibly fringe thing for weirdos to a thing that

3564
03:36:08,440 --> 03:36:11,720
Speaker 1: is also still for weirdos, but it's still mainstream. Yeah,

3565
03:36:12,000 --> 03:36:14,879
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna take take this opportunity to plug

3566
03:36:14,959 --> 03:36:19,440
Speaker 1: our future episode just dissecting the politics of attack on

3567
03:36:19,560 --> 03:36:23,760
Speaker 1: tited dot dot dot do it's coming folks and strap

3568
03:36:23,800 --> 03:36:29,560
Speaker 1: in so yes, what not would not be the thing

3569
03:36:29,640 --> 03:36:33,120
Speaker 1: is today without without without privacy. And again but the

3570
03:36:33,160 --> 03:36:37,920
Speaker 1: majority of of sales revenue comes from not Japan. So yeah,

3571
03:36:38,160 --> 03:36:43,600
Speaker 1: that's that's a pretty pretty pretty clear. So the discovery

3572
03:36:43,600 --> 03:36:46,680
Speaker 1: of new books and authors through the library system UM

3573
03:36:46,720 --> 03:36:49,680
Speaker 1: is definitely searching right now, actually specifically due to e

3574
03:36:49,800 --> 03:36:54,840
Speaker 1: books and audio books being available online anytime, well like

3575
03:36:55,120 --> 03:36:57,680
Speaker 1: via library means. So there's like, you know, there's there's

3576
03:36:57,680 --> 03:37:00,720
Speaker 1: ways you can access you can quote unquote sorrow these

3577
03:37:00,720 --> 03:37:04,120
Speaker 1: types of things via via the library systems, despite them

3578
03:37:04,160 --> 03:37:07,520
Speaker 1: being like digital media, which again I prefer physical, but

3579
03:37:07,600 --> 03:37:11,280
Speaker 1: that's that's something we'll talk about later. So even even

3580
03:37:11,320 --> 03:37:14,800
Speaker 1: while lib visits to libraries and like physical bookstores, a

3581
03:37:14,879 --> 03:37:19,280
Speaker 1: pommeted during COVID nineteen digital library usage sword, which is

3582
03:37:19,320 --> 03:37:21,840
Speaker 1: you know that that that that that that tracks UM,

3583
03:37:21,959 --> 03:37:25,879
Speaker 1: more than four hundred and thirty million titles were borrowed

3584
03:37:25,959 --> 03:37:31,560
Speaker 1: from the Overdrive library platform in alone, and it would

3585
03:37:31,600 --> 03:37:35,040
Speaker 1: you know, you could you could assume that this would

3586
03:37:35,040 --> 03:37:37,840
Speaker 1: cause a drop in the purchasing of books during the

3587
03:37:37,879 --> 03:37:41,600
Speaker 1: same period, but the opposite is true. Actually, the overall

3588
03:37:41,640 --> 03:37:44,800
Speaker 1: purchasing of books also rose in twenty including an eight

3589
03:37:44,800 --> 03:37:47,680
Speaker 1: percent lift in these sales of print books. Despite a

3590
03:37:47,680 --> 03:37:50,120
Speaker 1: lot of people being out of jobs, out of work,

3591
03:37:50,560 --> 03:37:52,879
Speaker 1: you know that turns out people are boards. They're gonna

3592
03:37:52,879 --> 03:37:55,720
Speaker 1: spend money on books because books are cool, and even

3593
03:37:55,760 --> 03:37:59,080
Speaker 1: when they have access to library stuff, they still buy books.

3594
03:38:00,200 --> 03:38:02,280
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a simple truth that the

3595
03:38:02,520 --> 03:38:06,160
Speaker 1: library patrons are usually also book buyers. It's it's me.

3596
03:38:06,360 --> 03:38:09,320
Speaker 1: I am literally surrounded by books on all sides that

3597
03:38:09,400 --> 03:38:12,200
Speaker 1: they have me surrounded. I have no escape. And this

3598
03:38:12,240 --> 03:38:13,640
Speaker 1: is what happens when you grow up in a library.

3599
03:38:14,000 --> 03:38:15,800
Speaker 1: I mean I also grew up in a library. Mean

3600
03:38:15,800 --> 03:38:18,840
Speaker 1: I was, I was homeschooled. I a library. To my

3601
03:38:19,400 --> 03:38:22,199
Speaker 1: to to my left, I have books on urban exploration

3602
03:38:22,280 --> 03:38:26,000
Speaker 1: and Lemony Snicket. My right, I have books on alchemy.

3603
03:38:26,080 --> 03:38:28,200
Speaker 1: Behind me, I have books which I should I'll not

3604
03:38:28,360 --> 03:38:32,040
Speaker 1: name um. And behind me I have a massive techo

3605
03:38:32,080 --> 03:38:35,480
Speaker 1: comic books of Yeah, I have usually surrounded by books.

3606
03:38:35,879 --> 03:38:38,760
Speaker 1: It's the books are great and you you have them

3607
03:38:38,879 --> 03:38:41,280
Speaker 1: unless they burn up. You're gonna have them, no matter

3608
03:38:41,320 --> 03:38:45,000
Speaker 1: whether the Internet goes out, whether whether an online provider

3609
03:38:45,040 --> 03:38:47,480
Speaker 1: shuts down, You're gonna you're gonna have physical books. They

3610
03:38:47,480 --> 03:38:50,400
Speaker 1: are they are, they are pretty, they're pretty cool. So

3611
03:38:51,680 --> 03:38:54,480
Speaker 1: in libraries, and like the library system offers a really

3612
03:38:54,480 --> 03:38:58,600
Speaker 1: great way to discover new books, new series, new genres,

3613
03:38:58,680 --> 03:39:01,760
Speaker 1: or new authors, but for deciding whether to permanently purchase

3614
03:39:01,800 --> 03:39:04,039
Speaker 1: those titles. So it's it's this isn't just like an

3615
03:39:04,080 --> 03:39:06,600
Speaker 1: assumption used to hype up the idea of a library.

3616
03:39:07,040 --> 03:39:09,080
Speaker 1: But this has been proven by lots of studies, like

3617
03:39:09,120 --> 03:39:10,959
Speaker 1: the why I mentioned a few minutes ago from two

3618
03:39:11,040 --> 03:39:15,000
Speaker 1: US and eleven. Also there was the Panorama Projects Immersive

3619
03:39:15,440 --> 03:39:20,320
Speaker 1: Media and Books Consumer Survey which is a way too

3620
03:39:20,360 --> 03:39:23,560
Speaker 1: long with a title real Mouthful, which found that one

3621
03:39:23,600 --> 03:39:26,880
Speaker 1: third of responders bought a book that they discovered through

3622
03:39:26,879 --> 03:39:30,440
Speaker 1: the library in So it turns out you you discover

3623
03:39:30,520 --> 03:39:31,760
Speaker 1: a book, you turn it and you're like, hey, that

3624
03:39:31,760 --> 03:39:33,840
Speaker 1: book actually pretty good. I'll just buy a copy myself.

3625
03:39:34,200 --> 03:39:36,600
Speaker 1: I did that. I still do that all the time.

3626
03:39:37,120 --> 03:39:40,360
Speaker 1: It's ah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a thing.

3627
03:39:40,640 --> 03:39:44,160
Speaker 1: So why I own all my Star Wars books? This

3628
03:39:44,240 --> 03:39:46,640
Speaker 1: is why I have a beautiful copy of Splinter in

3629
03:39:46,680 --> 03:39:51,520
Speaker 1: the Mind's Eye, which I am very curious to see

3630
03:39:51,680 --> 03:39:54,840
Speaker 1: who will get that joke. I was trying. I was

3631
03:39:54,840 --> 03:39:56,320
Speaker 1: trying to think of the worst Star worst book that

3632
03:39:56,360 --> 03:39:57,560
Speaker 1: I have, and then you said that, I'm like, I

3633
03:39:57,600 --> 03:40:01,920
Speaker 1: can't I think actually have that. Well, there you go,

3634
03:40:02,000 --> 03:40:08,640
Speaker 1: there's there's two. There's two for you. Uh yeah. So

3635
03:40:08,920 --> 03:40:11,320
Speaker 1: in our kind of in our life technology driven world

3636
03:40:11,360 --> 03:40:13,400
Speaker 1: of like, you know, wanting things very quickly, you know,

3637
03:40:13,600 --> 03:40:18,080
Speaker 1: instant instant gratification. UM. Library users are no different. Right,

3638
03:40:18,080 --> 03:40:21,920
Speaker 1: they still have that instant gratification drive, and many times

3639
03:40:21,959 --> 03:40:24,160
Speaker 1: they will want a specific a book and they'll be

3640
03:40:24,200 --> 03:40:26,280
Speaker 1: happy to pay for it instead of waiting for at

3641
03:40:26,280 --> 03:40:28,480
Speaker 1: the library. Right, you can put a book on hold,

3642
03:40:28,480 --> 03:40:30,720
Speaker 1: await a month, or you can buy it for ten bucks,

3643
03:40:30,720 --> 03:40:33,200
Speaker 1: and oftentimes people will buy the book because we want

3644
03:40:33,240 --> 03:40:38,000
Speaker 1: things quickly. It's according to the same Panorama Project Immersive

3645
03:40:38,040 --> 03:40:43,800
Speaker 1: the Media and Books consumer survey, about of respondents said

3646
03:40:43,800 --> 03:40:47,400
Speaker 1: that they just bought books rather than waiting for them

3647
03:40:47,440 --> 03:40:51,200
Speaker 1: if they are unavailable from from the library at the time. So,

3648
03:40:51,959 --> 03:40:55,240
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's a great system. Like libraries are

3649
03:40:55,240 --> 03:40:58,160
Speaker 1: also frequently used just as like a really good browsing tool. Uh.

3650
03:40:58,320 --> 03:41:00,000
Speaker 1: You know, if you're unsure what you want to read next,

3651
03:41:00,240 --> 03:41:02,280
Speaker 1: you can go to the library look at stuff and

3652
03:41:02,240 --> 03:41:03,760
Speaker 1: to be like, okay, this is what I'm interested in,

3653
03:41:04,040 --> 03:41:07,039
Speaker 1: and then purchase it online or in person at a

3654
03:41:07,120 --> 03:41:10,560
Speaker 1: later date. And it's not just it's not not not

3655
03:41:10,560 --> 03:41:14,880
Speaker 1: not just physical books. Library users are also are also

3656
03:41:14,959 --> 03:41:18,600
Speaker 1: driving the purchase e books and physical books um and

3657
03:41:18,720 --> 03:41:21,480
Speaker 1: audio books. Audiobooks have been actually very big at library.

3658
03:41:21,520 --> 03:41:22,800
Speaker 1: I used to listen to a lot of audio books

3659
03:41:22,840 --> 03:41:25,720
Speaker 1: actually from the library because I would get c d

3660
03:41:26,000 --> 03:41:30,080
Speaker 1: s back when those great for road trips, back in

3661
03:41:30,120 --> 03:41:33,240
Speaker 1: the oldie days, when you had a c D I

3662
03:41:33,400 --> 03:41:39,520
Speaker 1: say with my gen z uh um outlook Yes, uh

3663
03:41:39,879 --> 03:41:43,560
Speaker 1: c d s classic classic. According to the Audio Publishers

3664
03:41:43,600 --> 03:41:47,720
Speaker 1: Association also known as the a P A just acronym,

3665
03:41:49,000 --> 03:41:54,640
Speaker 1: daily audiobo consumption has grown seventy one since, which is

3666
03:41:54,640 --> 03:41:56,920
Speaker 1: not surprising me. Like there's there's there's stuff like Audible

3667
03:41:57,000 --> 03:41:59,520
Speaker 1: and you know, big big platforms that are are making

3668
03:41:59,640 --> 03:42:03,879
Speaker 1: high quality audiobook content. Uh, but that's that's that's a

3669
03:42:03,920 --> 03:42:10,920
Speaker 1: lot um alone. Audio book a revenue grew by even

3670
03:42:11,120 --> 03:42:14,400
Speaker 1: even though the number of people who were commuting plummeted,

3671
03:42:14,440 --> 03:42:16,039
Speaker 1: right because a lot of people listen to audiobooks while

3672
03:42:16,080 --> 03:42:18,440
Speaker 1: like driving to work. So the number of you know,

3673
03:42:18,480 --> 03:42:21,200
Speaker 1: of commuting dropped in because there was this plague. I'm

3674
03:42:21,200 --> 03:42:23,560
Speaker 1: not sure if you've heard about that, but they still

3675
03:42:26,520 --> 03:42:29,800
Speaker 1: that's true they're pretending it's not real. But if yeah,

3676
03:42:29,879 --> 03:42:32,400
Speaker 1: if if if, if you look at most if you

3677
03:42:32,440 --> 03:42:35,800
Speaker 1: look at you know, the the audiobook revenue, it grew

3678
03:42:35,959 --> 03:42:40,119
Speaker 1: despite their being much less much less um much less

3679
03:42:40,200 --> 03:42:43,200
Speaker 1: work commuting. And that was the eighth straight year of

3680
03:42:43,240 --> 03:42:47,760
Speaker 1: double of double digit growth in the audio book revenue sector.

3681
03:42:48,080 --> 03:42:51,240
Speaker 1: And it aligns with other kind of digital library usage statistics.

3682
03:42:51,800 --> 03:42:57,000
Speaker 1: So yeah, like libraries and booksellers, will they work in tandem.

3683
03:42:57,160 --> 03:43:02,040
Speaker 1: They they library's drive interest or content both physical and digital.

3684
03:43:02,680 --> 03:43:06,560
Speaker 1: You know, rising tide races, all all of those floaty

3685
03:43:06,600 --> 03:43:09,720
Speaker 1: things on the water. Um as the saying goes are

3686
03:43:09,959 --> 03:43:16,280
Speaker 1: it's a piracy joke, everybody. Yeah. Over Drive has found

3687
03:43:16,320 --> 03:43:19,320
Speaker 1: that when a reader uses one or more digital library

3688
03:43:19,360 --> 03:43:21,760
Speaker 1: apps like a Libby I've never heard of until I

3689
03:43:21,800 --> 03:43:25,000
Speaker 1: had to research on this podcast, but once you if

3690
03:43:25,000 --> 03:43:27,280
Speaker 1: you use more than one one or more digit digital

3691
03:43:27,280 --> 03:43:32,039
Speaker 1: library apps you're sixty, you are more likely to increase

3692
03:43:32,080 --> 03:43:34,959
Speaker 1: your book consumption year over year versus people who do not.

3693
03:43:35,160 --> 03:43:36,959
Speaker 1: So yeah, it turns out when you read more books,

3694
03:43:36,959 --> 03:43:41,280
Speaker 1: you want to read more books because it's fun. It's fun.

3695
03:43:41,680 --> 03:43:44,320
Speaker 1: So instead of instead of reading a book, I'm going

3696
03:43:44,360 --> 03:43:47,120
Speaker 1: to give our audio listeners an opportunity right now to

3697
03:43:47,240 --> 03:43:51,520
Speaker 1: listen to this carefully curated selection of ads unless they're

3698
03:43:51,600 --> 03:43:54,120
Speaker 1: by like, I don't know, the National Guard or whatever.

3699
03:43:54,240 --> 03:43:57,200
Speaker 1: So here you go, here's here's some ads, and we

3700
03:43:57,280 --> 03:44:01,119
Speaker 1: are back. What a lovely, lovely collection of audio treats

3701
03:44:01,160 --> 03:44:08,520
Speaker 1: to tickle your ears. Okay, okay, you're god speaking speaking

3702
03:44:08,560 --> 03:44:12,440
Speaker 1: of tickling your ears. Sonic the Hedgehog. So a lot

3703
03:44:12,480 --> 03:44:15,879
Speaker 1: of a lot of the reasons why we're gonna so

3704
03:44:16,640 --> 03:44:19,680
Speaker 1: this this, this will make sense, I promise. Um, we're

3705
03:44:19,720 --> 03:44:27,360
Speaker 1: about to talk about fly genetics, ssh Sonic Hedgehog. We're

3706
03:44:27,360 --> 03:44:30,120
Speaker 1: talking about how like when people are allowed to like

3707
03:44:30,160 --> 03:44:33,080
Speaker 1: do piracy and allowed to do like their own things

3708
03:44:33,120 --> 03:44:35,879
Speaker 1: with media and actually boosts the overall kind of like

3709
03:44:35,959 --> 03:44:39,279
Speaker 1: the presence of the franchise. Right, So, Sonic the Hedgehog

3710
03:44:39,280 --> 03:44:42,200
Speaker 1: would not be a current cultural steak if it wasn't

3711
03:44:42,200 --> 03:44:44,840
Speaker 1: for fan culture and the use of like fan games

3712
03:44:44,920 --> 03:44:48,160
Speaker 1: and fan media related to Sonic. So the same thing

3713
03:44:48,200 --> 03:44:52,000
Speaker 1: with like anime, right, Um, you know, Sonic Sonic fan games,

3714
03:44:52,000 --> 03:44:53,800
Speaker 1: which were allowed to be existed for years, which they

3715
03:44:53,800 --> 03:44:55,959
Speaker 1: get encouraged, are the only reason why there's a good

3716
03:44:55,959 --> 03:44:58,400
Speaker 1: Sonic Games right now, Like Sonic Mania, which were just

3717
03:44:58,440 --> 03:45:01,280
Speaker 1: they just hired people who made fan game. Um, the

3718
03:45:01,320 --> 03:45:04,120
Speaker 1: person who redesigned Sonic the Hedgehog for the movie what

3719
03:45:04,360 --> 03:45:09,080
Speaker 1: used to make Sonic fan comics and then got hired

3720
03:45:09,080 --> 03:45:11,280
Speaker 1: to make the actual official Sonic comics. Then they got

3721
03:45:11,360 --> 03:45:13,480
Speaker 1: hired to fix them. They got hired to fix the

3722
03:45:13,520 --> 03:45:17,160
Speaker 1: horrible movie design. So yeah, say, it has been very

3723
03:45:17,160 --> 03:45:21,640
Speaker 1: good about like not being horrible about like copyright stuff

3724
03:45:21,680 --> 03:45:24,120
Speaker 1: and trademark stuff. They've like really encouraged it because it

3725
03:45:24,160 --> 03:45:27,440
Speaker 1: turns out when you when you yourself don't make good games,

3726
03:45:27,480 --> 03:45:30,520
Speaker 1: you need to rely on fans to actually make the

3727
03:45:30,600 --> 03:45:33,240
Speaker 1: good games. So we get so that's how you get

3728
03:45:33,240 --> 03:45:36,720
Speaker 1: beautiful creations like the Sonic Dreams Collection, which is a heartwarming,

3729
03:45:37,240 --> 03:45:41,560
Speaker 1: nostalgic look at Sonic through the Ages um, and other

3730
03:45:41,600 --> 03:45:45,560
Speaker 1: great games like Sonic Mania, which so we can compare

3731
03:45:45,640 --> 03:45:49,800
Speaker 1: this to like a Nintendo who unfortunately makes good games um,

3732
03:45:49,879 --> 03:45:52,440
Speaker 1: but also hates when fans make games or do like

3733
03:45:52,480 --> 03:45:55,880
Speaker 1: emulation or any like ports. They will clamp down on

3734
03:45:56,000 --> 03:45:59,920
Speaker 1: that so fast. If you ever emulate a Nintendo game,

3735
03:46:00,280 --> 03:46:03,480
Speaker 1: you know, watch watch your back. There will be there

3736
03:46:03,480 --> 03:46:06,080
Speaker 1: will be men in black students following you around just

3737
03:46:06,440 --> 03:46:10,040
Speaker 1: like to understanding of like how far this goes? Right,

3738
03:46:10,080 --> 03:46:12,760
Speaker 1: So Super Smash Bros And Bilet this game is like

3739
03:46:13,520 --> 03:46:17,040
Speaker 1: maybe older than Garrison. It is. I think I actually

3740
03:46:17,040 --> 03:46:19,240
Speaker 1: don't know what that trade, but yeah, literally old and Garrison. Right,

3741
03:46:19,400 --> 03:46:22,520
Speaker 1: this game has a still still to this day, Like

3742
03:46:22,920 --> 03:46:25,160
Speaker 1: copies of this game are extremely expensive because there's an

3743
03:46:25,240 --> 03:46:30,200
Speaker 1: enormous professional scene around it. Uh. Nintendo like basically was

3744
03:46:30,240 --> 03:46:33,039
Speaker 1: working to actively smash them because they were they were

3745
03:46:33,080 --> 03:46:36,400
Speaker 1: playing a yeah yeah, yeah, because they because they were

3746
03:46:36,440 --> 03:46:39,400
Speaker 1: playing on like an emulated like they're playing an emulated

3747
03:46:39,480 --> 03:46:43,320
Speaker 1: version of it for tournaments because it's emulated software. Yeah yeah.

3748
03:46:43,440 --> 03:46:47,800
Speaker 1: And Nintendo again, who is literally getting like millions of

3749
03:46:47,879 --> 03:46:51,440
Speaker 1: views of completely free good publicity, was like, no, we

3750
03:46:51,560 --> 03:46:56,080
Speaker 1: hate you. Nintendo will like this when people use they're

3751
03:46:56,360 --> 03:46:58,879
Speaker 1: they're like there their content and stuff in ways that

3752
03:46:58,920 --> 03:47:02,280
Speaker 1: are not not not afficill and because they make decent games,

3753
03:47:02,280 --> 03:47:05,560
Speaker 1: they can actually get away with that, um sega, let's

3754
03:47:05,600 --> 03:47:08,200
Speaker 1: not make decent games that questioning. So they have to

3755
03:47:08,200 --> 03:47:10,480
Speaker 1: rely on fans doing that. But yeah, that's the reason

3756
03:47:10,520 --> 03:47:13,080
Speaker 1: why Sonic is still a thing, just because fans have

3757
03:47:13,080 --> 03:47:16,240
Speaker 1: have been able to you know, through through piracy, through

3758
03:47:16,280 --> 03:47:19,760
Speaker 1: emulation through creating, through ucing like Sonic code to code

3759
03:47:19,760 --> 03:47:22,200
Speaker 1: their own games all stuff. As is the reason why

3760
03:47:22,280 --> 03:47:25,240
Speaker 1: that's still like a cultural staple. That is releasing a

3761
03:47:25,240 --> 03:47:27,320
Speaker 1: new movie next month. But I'm very excited about I'm

3762
03:47:27,400 --> 03:47:29,200
Speaker 1: very excited about some Sonic that he had hug too.

3763
03:47:29,440 --> 03:47:32,040
Speaker 1: It's gonna be, It's gonna be. I'm thinking, I'm thinking

3764
03:47:32,040 --> 03:47:34,240
Speaker 1: it could we could finally clamp down on the video

3765
03:47:34,240 --> 03:47:37,920
Speaker 1: game Oscar this time. I feel it. Well, that's that's look,

3766
03:47:38,000 --> 03:47:40,880
Speaker 1: this is this this this is just because Ace Attorney

3767
03:47:40,879 --> 03:47:45,959
Speaker 1: got robbed. Okay, createst movie of all time. That is

3768
03:47:46,000 --> 03:47:49,080
Speaker 1: That is my little side bit about about about about

3769
03:47:49,120 --> 03:47:53,560
Speaker 1: sega Um. Yeah, we should also briefly mentioned that Nintendo

3770
03:47:53,680 --> 03:47:56,160
Speaker 1: just like put literally put a guy in prison for

3771
03:47:56,240 --> 03:48:00,160
Speaker 1: helping for helping jailbreak consoles, like put putting man in

3772
03:48:00,320 --> 03:48:05,039
Speaker 1: prison for this for modifying people's software and a game console.

3773
03:48:05,320 --> 03:48:07,000
Speaker 1: I guess the other thing I'll talk about is, like,

3774
03:48:08,000 --> 03:48:09,400
Speaker 1: I mean, part of the reason why I really don't

3775
03:48:09,440 --> 03:48:12,040
Speaker 1: like digital ownership of media is because you don't actually

3776
03:48:12,400 --> 03:48:15,240
Speaker 1: own the thing. You own a license to use the

3777
03:48:15,280 --> 03:48:17,640
Speaker 1: content as long as the online services active. So even

3778
03:48:17,680 --> 03:48:21,000
Speaker 1: if you buy a game on you know, the Nintendo

3779
03:48:21,040 --> 03:48:23,320
Speaker 1: Switch Store. You're not actually buying the game, you're buying

3780
03:48:23,320 --> 03:48:25,360
Speaker 1: a license to use the game. The same thing for

3781
03:48:25,400 --> 03:48:28,080
Speaker 1: whether you're buying media on like Amazon Prime, right, it's

3782
03:48:28,080 --> 03:48:30,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's the same thing if you're if you're

3783
03:48:30,160 --> 03:48:32,600
Speaker 1: buying digital copy of it, it's a license to use it,

3784
03:48:33,000 --> 03:48:35,480
Speaker 1: so you can take you know, what Nintendo has done

3785
03:48:35,680 --> 03:48:37,880
Speaker 1: a few years ago is they shut down the U

3786
03:48:38,080 --> 03:48:40,520
Speaker 1: Shop channel, which means if you bought a game and

3787
03:48:40,520 --> 03:48:43,600
Speaker 1: it wasn't creantly downloaded, you can now you've just it's gone.

3788
03:48:43,640 --> 03:48:45,520
Speaker 1: You just cannot you cannot play it anymore because they

3789
03:48:45,560 --> 03:48:48,800
Speaker 1: just completely took service down, so you don't actually you're

3790
03:48:48,800 --> 03:48:50,280
Speaker 1: not you're not actually buying the thing, you're just buying

3791
03:48:50,320 --> 03:48:52,400
Speaker 1: a license to use the thing. Now. They did the

3792
03:48:52,440 --> 03:48:55,000
Speaker 1: same thing a few months ago for the w U

3793
03:48:55,120 --> 03:48:58,040
Speaker 1: Shop channel and the three D S channel. So yeah,

3794
03:48:58,320 --> 03:49:02,000
Speaker 1: rip ripped to that. If you if you if you have,

3795
03:49:02,160 --> 03:49:05,040
Speaker 1: if you bought games on there that we're not currently running,

3796
03:49:05,320 --> 03:49:07,560
Speaker 1: then you cannot get them anymore. They're just gone, like

3797
03:49:07,600 --> 03:49:10,680
Speaker 1: you can, they're just lost lost of time. Well and

3798
03:49:10,720 --> 03:49:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, and again, if if you if you modified

3799
03:49:12,640 --> 03:49:15,520
Speaker 1: the software on the game console, that you like nominally

3800
03:49:15,560 --> 03:49:17,600
Speaker 1: own in order to play the games that you bought

3801
03:49:17,640 --> 03:49:19,880
Speaker 1: and paid for. They will throw you in prison. Nintendo

3802
03:49:19,920 --> 03:49:23,080
Speaker 1: will send men in suits to come and get you

3803
03:49:23,160 --> 03:49:27,920
Speaker 1: and throw you in the prison. Yeah. Who he it's

3804
03:49:27,920 --> 03:49:31,960
Speaker 1: a it's a Mario. It's a Mario joke. Everybody. Um, yes, So,

3805
03:49:32,240 --> 03:49:34,560
Speaker 1: I mean it's the same thing with like subscription services.

3806
03:49:34,600 --> 03:49:36,680
Speaker 1: Like obviously, if you have a subscription service, you don't

3807
03:49:36,720 --> 03:49:40,280
Speaker 1: own the content you're watching. You are just getting permission

3808
03:49:40,280 --> 03:49:41,600
Speaker 1: to use it from a certain amount of time. So

3809
03:49:41,680 --> 03:49:44,200
Speaker 1: this is obviously. This is this is more obvious. Right,

3810
03:49:44,520 --> 03:49:47,160
Speaker 1: you don't owe what's on Netflix. You just are able

3811
03:49:47,240 --> 03:49:50,200
Speaker 1: to watch what Netflix has legal rights to show. But

3812
03:49:50,240 --> 03:49:53,880
Speaker 1: you even see this thing extended to like cars, like

3813
03:49:54,120 --> 03:49:57,960
Speaker 1: Toyota was was trying out a program and that this

3814
03:49:58,000 --> 03:49:59,720
Speaker 1: may even it may even still be active for some

3815
03:49:59,760 --> 03:50:03,360
Speaker 1: car is where you need a subscription service to use

3816
03:50:03,600 --> 03:50:07,080
Speaker 1: the key fob on your cars like automat, like like

3817
03:50:07,160 --> 03:50:10,560
Speaker 1: door locking, like fob, like you need a subscription to

3818
03:50:10,720 --> 03:50:13,760
Speaker 1: use that service of it. Just like why, Like it's

3819
03:50:13,880 --> 03:50:16,880
Speaker 1: it's just turning everything, it's turning everything into us to

3820
03:50:16,960 --> 03:50:19,160
Speaker 1: us like a subscription service. It's horrible, Like everything is

3821
03:50:19,160 --> 03:50:22,400
Speaker 1: becoming a new subscription service, a new a new thing

3822
03:50:22,480 --> 03:50:25,040
Speaker 1: to get your monthly payments for. It's it's it's awful,

3823
03:50:25,120 --> 03:50:28,040
Speaker 1: like you don't actually buy things anymore. It's just a

3824
03:50:28,080 --> 03:50:32,360
Speaker 1: subscription services and digital copies. It's not nothing is nothing

3825
03:50:32,440 --> 03:50:34,880
Speaker 1: is actually the thing anymore? Yeah, it's it's it's all

3826
03:50:34,920 --> 03:50:38,440
Speaker 1: just rent extraction and the entire economy. Instead of you know,

3827
03:50:38,560 --> 03:50:40,320
Speaker 1: having a thing, they figured out way, what if we

3828
03:50:40,360 --> 03:50:43,080
Speaker 1: just distract rent and then you also don't own it.

3829
03:50:43,200 --> 03:50:44,760
Speaker 1: The same thing with like Tesla cars you have to

3830
03:50:44,800 --> 03:50:49,560
Speaker 1: like buy buy you know, upgrades via software that are

3831
03:50:49,600 --> 03:50:53,120
Speaker 1: already built in and like subscribe to keep your car

3832
03:50:53,240 --> 03:50:56,920
Speaker 1: running nicely. Like what it's not like no, yeah, like

3833
03:50:57,000 --> 03:50:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna go on a very small game

3834
03:50:59,120 --> 03:51:01,360
Speaker 1: or rent here because this this is a this is

3835
03:51:01,360 --> 03:51:03,360
Speaker 1: the thing. A lot a lot of the worst practices

3836
03:51:03,360 --> 03:51:06,000
Speaker 1: for this rigidated gaming and this this was this was

3837
03:51:06,040 --> 03:51:08,200
Speaker 1: a big fight back in like the early thousand pens

3838
03:51:08,200 --> 03:51:10,920
Speaker 1: about okay, if you buy a game, right, do you

3839
03:51:11,000 --> 03:51:13,560
Speaker 1: own everything on the game. And there was a huge

3840
03:51:13,560 --> 03:51:16,440
Speaker 1: fight about you know, they have these like delayed DLC,

3841
03:51:16,720 --> 03:51:18,480
Speaker 1: like they have these new content packages that would be

3842
03:51:18,560 --> 03:51:20,400
Speaker 1: on the disc right that you've bought, but you can't

3843
03:51:20,400 --> 03:51:23,000
Speaker 1: access it unless you pay the money. And this was

3844
03:51:23,040 --> 03:51:26,200
Speaker 1: like a fight, and some gamers were like, you know,

3845
03:51:26,200 --> 03:51:29,200
Speaker 1: they're trying to fight it, right, but most gamers didn't care.

3846
03:51:29,320 --> 03:51:31,360
Speaker 1: And then they became the weaponized shock troops to the

3847
03:51:31,360 --> 03:51:33,200
Speaker 1: far right instead of you know, dealing with this ship.

3848
03:51:33,320 --> 03:51:35,760
Speaker 1: And now literally everything has fucking day and day one

3849
03:51:35,800 --> 03:51:38,520
Speaker 1: DLC on it that you buy the thing, you don't

3850
03:51:38,520 --> 03:51:40,800
Speaker 1: even get all you have to you have to buy

3851
03:51:40,800 --> 03:51:42,960
Speaker 1: the if you have to buy the season pass to

3852
03:51:43,080 --> 03:51:45,440
Speaker 1: get all the content in the future. It's like you

3853
03:51:45,440 --> 03:51:47,080
Speaker 1: have to buy the season pass for your car to

3854
03:51:47,120 --> 03:51:50,560
Speaker 1: work properly. Yeah, so this is just how capital it

3855
03:51:50,680 --> 03:51:52,880
Speaker 1: started with. Star started with the season pass for a

3856
03:51:52,920 --> 03:51:55,680
Speaker 1: sixty for a sixty dollar game to then buy season

3857
03:51:55,680 --> 03:51:58,240
Speaker 1: pass to get more of the game, and now it's

3858
03:51:58,520 --> 03:52:05,280
Speaker 1: for your fIF car. So yeah, that's fun. It's it's not,

3859
03:52:05,360 --> 03:52:08,000
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of sucks. So but yeah, a lot

3860
03:52:08,040 --> 03:52:10,320
Speaker 1: of these, a lot of these like play to win practices,

3861
03:52:10,440 --> 03:52:13,440
Speaker 1: these like free models which then like which lead into

3862
03:52:13,480 --> 03:52:16,640
Speaker 1: like a subscription service based model. Um have did da

3863
03:52:16,680 --> 03:52:20,920
Speaker 1: have definitely started in online gaming, and it's yeah, it's

3864
03:52:20,960 --> 03:52:24,880
Speaker 1: it's really frustrating because, as we'll talk about here in

3865
03:52:24,920 --> 03:52:28,280
Speaker 1: a bit, like the Sega model is like better, Like

3866
03:52:28,520 --> 03:52:32,000
Speaker 1: turns out when you encourage your fans to play around

3867
03:52:32,000 --> 03:52:34,560
Speaker 1: with the stuff, it only helps your property. Like that's

3868
03:52:34,560 --> 03:52:37,120
Speaker 1: the reason why they there's still Sonic March available now

3869
03:52:37,120 --> 03:52:39,520
Speaker 1: and it's not like a dead franchise. It's because they

3870
03:52:39,760 --> 03:52:42,160
Speaker 1: because they allowed that to happen. So it's actually really

3871
03:52:42,200 --> 03:52:44,840
Speaker 1: cool when we're allowed to access for information and play

3872
03:52:44,880 --> 03:52:47,560
Speaker 1: with it how we want to, instead of like having

3873
03:52:47,600 --> 03:52:52,720
Speaker 1: this weird strict copyright like rules for not allowing certain

3874
03:52:52,800 --> 03:52:55,480
Speaker 1: usage of certain things. Like it's it's it's not. It's

3875
03:52:55,480 --> 03:52:58,720
Speaker 1: not great when you're restricting like emulation, restricting fan games,

3876
03:52:59,320 --> 03:53:03,080
Speaker 1: restricting access to information. It's not. It's not. It's it's not.

3877
03:53:03,200 --> 03:53:05,520
Speaker 1: It's not fun. But yeah, this is kind of it's

3878
03:53:05,560 --> 03:53:07,840
Speaker 1: kind of place into why I am very skeptical of

3879
03:53:07,840 --> 03:53:10,560
Speaker 1: digital media, which to why I start started collecting blue

3880
03:53:10,640 --> 03:53:12,760
Speaker 1: rays and all of all the things they like, because

3881
03:53:13,320 --> 03:53:15,560
Speaker 1: I've botten things that Amazon Prime which are now no

3882
03:53:15,600 --> 03:53:18,160
Speaker 1: longer available on Amazon Prime and that sucks, so like

3883
03:53:18,240 --> 03:53:22,040
Speaker 1: why do that instead just buy your physical copy? Yeah, Well,

3884
03:53:22,360 --> 03:53:24,080
Speaker 1: the thing is like it didn't and it's so true

3885
03:53:24,120 --> 03:53:25,920
Speaker 1: to some extent, like if you buy physical copies, like

3886
03:53:25,920 --> 03:53:28,160
Speaker 1: it didn't used to be like this, like blue rays

3887
03:53:28,960 --> 03:53:33,560
Speaker 1: used to it to some extent, still dubious most things. Yeah,

3888
03:53:33,640 --> 03:53:35,440
Speaker 1: but like like if if you buy the physical copy

3889
03:53:35,480 --> 03:53:37,080
Speaker 1: of it, they will give you a code that lets

3890
03:53:37,080 --> 03:53:40,240
Speaker 1: you use the online version, a digital download code. Yeah. Yeah,

3891
03:53:40,360 --> 03:53:43,200
Speaker 1: and you know that's a much better way of the

3892
03:53:43,280 --> 03:53:46,800
Speaker 1: thing working than uh instead of you know, you don't

3893
03:53:46,840 --> 03:53:48,800
Speaker 1: buying it, you don't have the physical product, and also

3894
03:53:48,880 --> 03:53:53,960
Speaker 1: they can take it away from you. Yeah, it's I'll

3895
03:53:53,960 --> 03:53:55,920
Speaker 1: circle back to this idea towards the end, but I

3896
03:53:56,000 --> 03:53:57,240
Speaker 1: kind of want to, I want I want to a

3897
03:53:57,240 --> 03:54:00,280
Speaker 1: little bit segue to like the idea of the type

3898
03:54:00,320 --> 03:54:05,480
Speaker 1: of like paywalling, subscription service issues, and like the restriction

3899
03:54:05,480 --> 03:54:09,320
Speaker 1: of for information regarding online news. So, you know, there's

3900
03:54:09,320 --> 03:54:13,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people, whether they be like reporters, editors, authors,

3901
03:54:13,240 --> 03:54:16,400
Speaker 1: or just annoying people online. Um, but there's a decent

3902
03:54:16,400 --> 03:54:19,240
Speaker 1: collection of people that perpetuate the notion that readers or

3903
03:54:19,280 --> 03:54:22,760
Speaker 1: consumers are actually responsible for the dire straits of the

3904
03:54:22,840 --> 03:54:27,280
Speaker 1: media industry. But the problem with journalism and many other

3905
03:54:27,360 --> 03:54:31,240
Speaker 1: media you know, industries. But the problem isn't that people

3906
03:54:31,280 --> 03:54:34,720
Speaker 1: aren't paying for news. The problem is that newspapers and

3907
03:54:34,720 --> 03:54:38,400
Speaker 1: outlets are being decimated and dismantled by hedge funds, capital

3908
03:54:38,440 --> 03:54:43,120
Speaker 1: investment firms, venture capitalists, and tech companies in search of profit. UM.

3909
03:54:43,120 --> 03:54:45,440
Speaker 1: You can look at how Facebook tricked a whole bunch

3910
03:54:45,440 --> 03:54:49,360
Speaker 1: of companies into switching over to video content and then

3911
03:54:49,480 --> 03:54:51,760
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of companies had to fire tons of

3912
03:54:51,760 --> 03:54:53,760
Speaker 1: people because there was a lie. You can look at

3913
03:54:53,760 --> 03:54:58,520
Speaker 1: how Sinclair Broadcasting dominates local news channels and websites UM,

3914
03:54:58,600 --> 03:55:01,560
Speaker 1: and how well established local papers are struggling while big

3915
03:55:01,600 --> 03:55:06,920
Speaker 1: companies buy up all the competition. So it's it's it's

3916
03:55:07,040 --> 03:55:09,520
Speaker 1: especially the venture capitalist thing is actually a really UH

3917
03:55:10,360 --> 03:55:15,440
Speaker 1: is a really interesting idea that has been documented decently well.

3918
03:55:16,000 --> 03:55:17,680
Speaker 1: And in the bed, I'll teach you how to bypass

3919
03:55:18,080 --> 03:55:21,800
Speaker 1: UH newspaper headlines via different methods. But there's this actually

3920
03:55:21,840 --> 03:55:25,760
Speaker 1: good article in the Washington Post UM that is titled

3921
03:55:26,040 --> 03:55:29,560
Speaker 1: as a secretive hedge fund gets its newspapers journalists are

3922
03:55:29,600 --> 03:55:31,800
Speaker 1: fighting back. It kind of just details all of the

3923
03:55:31,800 --> 03:55:35,000
Speaker 1: different hedge funds, adventure capitalists firms instead of like just

3924
03:55:35,560 --> 03:55:38,880
Speaker 1: totally destroyed so many local papers throughout the entire country.

3925
03:55:38,920 --> 03:55:41,720
Speaker 1: It's actually kind of surprising once you learn how many

3926
03:55:41,800 --> 03:55:45,560
Speaker 1: of these papers are just getting destroyed by like just

3927
03:55:45,720 --> 03:55:47,800
Speaker 1: a few, like just like a few hedge funds are

3928
03:55:47,840 --> 03:55:50,920
Speaker 1: just doing all this damage. And it's it's like, yeah,

3929
03:55:51,040 --> 03:55:53,920
Speaker 1: I mean, this is why the current like journalism industry

3930
03:55:53,960 --> 03:55:55,840
Speaker 1: kind of sucks right now, is because of these types

3931
03:55:55,880 --> 03:55:59,000
Speaker 1: of practices. And I mean, like no one likes it,

3932
03:55:59,040 --> 03:56:03,080
Speaker 1: like no one's had be with it, Like everyone hates journalism.

3933
03:56:03,160 --> 03:56:06,480
Speaker 1: Journalists hate journalism, people who read journalism hates journalism, like

3934
03:56:06,640 --> 03:56:11,120
Speaker 1: activists hate journalism, like everyone's met at it um. And yeah,

3935
03:56:11,200 --> 03:56:13,280
Speaker 1: you can look at these these hedge funds and venture

3936
03:56:13,320 --> 03:56:17,400
Speaker 1: capitalists who are just like making it such an impossible industry. Uh.

3937
03:56:17,440 --> 03:56:18,880
Speaker 1: And then you know how you have like you have

3938
03:56:18,920 --> 03:56:22,280
Speaker 1: internet sites and culture sites like Vice, BuzzFeed and Cracked

3939
03:56:22,600 --> 03:56:24,920
Speaker 1: who had to frequently lay off large swaths of their

3940
03:56:25,000 --> 03:56:28,400
Speaker 1: editorial and writing teams, whether for like union reasons or

3941
03:56:28,520 --> 03:56:31,000
Speaker 1: because the company made failed attempt to chase some big

3942
03:56:31,000 --> 03:56:35,640
Speaker 1: tech companies or media giants you know, like proposed money,

3943
03:56:35,680 --> 03:56:38,840
Speaker 1: like in the Facebook switching over to video content kind

3944
03:56:38,840 --> 03:56:41,640
Speaker 1: of debacle that happened a few years ago, and like

3945
03:56:42,560 --> 03:56:45,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's understandable why these writers, artists, the

3946
03:56:45,680 --> 03:56:49,080
Speaker 1: journalists are frustrated because yeah, the work is hard and

3947
03:56:49,080 --> 03:56:51,480
Speaker 1: the salaries are low. Well, the work should be hard.

3948
03:56:51,600 --> 03:56:54,160
Speaker 1: Some people kind of slack off, but you know, for

3949
03:56:54,280 --> 03:56:57,800
Speaker 1: the good journalism is more is challenging, and salaries typically

3950
03:56:57,840 --> 03:57:01,920
Speaker 1: aren't great. But even if audience monetary is support, where

3951
03:57:01,960 --> 03:57:05,840
Speaker 1: the solution to making creative and writing industry is more profitable, again,

3952
03:57:06,600 --> 03:57:09,960
Speaker 1: the kind of anti piracy folks would still be missing.

3953
03:57:10,160 --> 03:57:14,440
Speaker 1: A fundamental point is that kind of the the pro

3954
03:57:14,520 --> 03:57:17,560
Speaker 1: paywell people want you to get it through your head

3955
03:57:17,600 --> 03:57:21,400
Speaker 1: that journalism is just like other types of things you buy,

3956
03:57:21,400 --> 03:57:25,080
Speaker 1: whether it be food, you know, alcohol or entertainment um

3957
03:57:25,160 --> 03:57:28,120
Speaker 1: saying you know all these things. You know, Netflix isn't free.

3958
03:57:28,480 --> 03:57:32,160
Speaker 1: You know, Coca Cola isn't free. Right, This isn't journalism's fault.

3959
03:57:32,160 --> 03:57:33,720
Speaker 1: It's just how the world works. You have to buy

3960
03:57:33,720 --> 03:57:35,280
Speaker 1: it to use it. It's you know, it costs money

3961
03:57:35,280 --> 03:57:36,880
Speaker 1: to make, you have to buy it to use it.

3962
03:57:36,880 --> 03:57:39,480
Speaker 1: It's just it's it's it's like it's dumb to think otherwise.

3963
03:57:39,760 --> 03:57:42,560
Speaker 1: This is kind of their framework. But I beg to

3964
03:57:42,560 --> 03:57:46,400
Speaker 1: differ because enjoying art and worthwhile journalism I think should

3965
03:57:46,400 --> 03:57:49,320
Speaker 1: always have the option of being free, because when information

3966
03:57:49,520 --> 03:57:51,760
Speaker 1: is in the public interest, it should just always be

3967
03:57:51,800 --> 03:57:54,720
Speaker 1: available to everybody, whether or not you've already used up

3968
03:57:54,800 --> 03:57:58,800
Speaker 1: your three free articles. Like this is really important, especially

3969
03:57:58,840 --> 03:58:01,520
Speaker 1: now when there's you know, the whole the whole war

3970
03:58:01,680 --> 03:58:05,360
Speaker 1: thing happening and finding like pay all the articles about

3971
03:58:05,360 --> 03:58:09,080
Speaker 1: it is incredibly frustrating. Uh. And yeah, I mean there

3972
03:58:09,120 --> 03:58:12,240
Speaker 1: was even when the there was a right wing right

3973
03:58:12,280 --> 03:58:15,600
Speaker 1: ring extremist who opened fire and killed someone at a

3974
03:58:15,720 --> 03:58:20,760
Speaker 1: Portland's uh black Lives Matter protests a few weeks ago. Uh,

3975
03:58:20,800 --> 03:58:23,480
Speaker 1: that that is you know, still definitely impacting the city

3976
03:58:23,800 --> 03:58:26,240
Speaker 1: because it was it's it's still very recent. But a

3977
03:58:26,240 --> 03:58:28,960
Speaker 1: lot of the news coverage, first of all, it wasn't great. Uh.

3978
03:58:29,040 --> 03:58:31,320
Speaker 1: There was a whole bunch of news coverage was like

3979
03:58:31,760 --> 03:58:36,400
Speaker 1: was parroting the police lies and framing the framing the

3980
03:58:36,440 --> 03:58:39,280
Speaker 1: attacker is like an innocent homeowner who was defending himself.

3981
03:58:39,440 --> 03:58:41,560
Speaker 1: It was pretty gross. But even when even when the

3982
03:58:41,560 --> 03:58:45,400
Speaker 1: news articles started to like correct their previous agree with errors, um,

3983
03:58:45,440 --> 03:58:47,840
Speaker 1: almost all of it was paid walled like all like

3984
03:58:47,920 --> 03:58:49,440
Speaker 1: all like a whole bunch of stuff was pay welled

3985
03:58:49,480 --> 03:58:52,840
Speaker 1: about it, and that's incredibly frustrating because this is like,

3986
03:58:52,920 --> 03:58:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, when information is in the public interest, it

3987
03:58:55,480 --> 03:58:58,440
Speaker 1: should be free to access. Like that's just there's like

3988
03:58:58,480 --> 03:59:02,400
Speaker 1: a good moral thing like uh and even um And

3989
03:59:02,440 --> 03:59:04,800
Speaker 1: we've seen it. We've seen this before. Back in when

3990
03:59:04,840 --> 03:59:08,160
Speaker 1: the plague was a new thing. News organizations across the

3991
03:59:08,160 --> 03:59:11,160
Speaker 1: country started to lift pay walls to share coverage of

3992
03:59:11,200 --> 03:59:16,240
Speaker 1: the coronavirus pandemic um, which was great and you know,

3993
03:59:16,400 --> 03:59:19,840
Speaker 1: you can you can obviously see that once that changed over,

3994
03:59:20,320 --> 03:59:23,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people who we're making this happen behind

3995
03:59:23,520 --> 03:59:25,720
Speaker 1: the scenes probably hoped that it just convince people to

3996
03:59:25,760 --> 03:59:28,520
Speaker 1: become paying customers. But it was still like, that's still

3997
03:59:28,560 --> 03:59:30,880
Speaker 1: the way things should be is to have have the

3998
03:59:30,920 --> 03:59:33,400
Speaker 1: option of it being free and then having the option

3999
03:59:33,440 --> 03:59:36,160
Speaker 1: to donate. And this actually seems to be kind of

4000
03:59:36,200 --> 03:59:41,800
Speaker 1: the trend. Uh. The University of Texas at Austin surveyed

4001
03:59:41,840 --> 03:59:45,600
Speaker 1: about like a thousand Chicago residents about their local news consumption,

4002
03:59:46,000 --> 03:59:48,080
Speaker 1: and they found that respondents were more willing to give

4003
03:59:48,080 --> 03:59:50,760
Speaker 1: a ten dollar donation to support a free news site

4004
03:59:51,120 --> 03:59:54,800
Speaker 1: than pay ten dollars for a subscription to access premium

4005
03:59:54,840 --> 03:59:59,960
Speaker 1: news content. So yeah, like that's and that I definite

4006
04:00:00,000 --> 04:00:02,760
Speaker 1: you share that same like, uh, that same idea, I

4007
04:00:02,760 --> 04:00:06,240
Speaker 1: will weigh sooner donate money to a newspaper that I

4008
04:00:06,320 --> 04:00:08,880
Speaker 1: enjoy that is also free that I will pay ten

4009
04:00:08,880 --> 04:00:14,240
Speaker 1: dollars a month to read subscription service based news. It's

4010
04:00:14,360 --> 04:00:18,640
Speaker 1: a it's because it turns out when you like this.

4011
04:00:18,640 --> 04:00:21,000
Speaker 1: This applies to all types of media. But like when

4012
04:00:21,040 --> 04:00:24,560
Speaker 1: you enjoy media, you want to support its creators, whether

4013
04:00:24,600 --> 04:00:27,680
Speaker 1: that be anime, whether that be Sonic the fucking Headgehog,

4014
04:00:28,000 --> 04:00:30,920
Speaker 1: whether that be whether that be news or books. Right,

4015
04:00:31,080 --> 04:00:32,600
Speaker 1: if you like something, you're gonna buy it. Right. I

4016
04:00:32,800 --> 04:00:34,720
Speaker 1: got to introduced to Lemony stick its books to be

4017
04:00:34,760 --> 04:00:37,200
Speaker 1: the library, and now I bought lots because I wanted to.

4018
04:00:37,600 --> 04:00:39,160
Speaker 1: I wanted to buy the books from the person that

4019
04:00:39,200 --> 04:00:43,840
Speaker 1: I like. Yeah, and there are entire like industries. I

4020
04:00:43,840 --> 04:00:45,840
Speaker 1: mean that literally just work on this person list. This

4021
04:00:45,880 --> 04:00:49,800
Speaker 1: is why free to play games work. Yeah, exactly. There

4022
04:00:49,840 --> 04:00:51,640
Speaker 1: there's another conversation with for you to play games here

4023
04:00:51,680 --> 04:00:55,160
Speaker 1: about like addiction and gambling and manipulation about that. But

4024
04:00:55,200 --> 04:00:58,840
Speaker 1: like that that's you know, like setting that aside for

4025
04:00:58,880 --> 04:01:01,360
Speaker 1: a second. It's like, yeah, these things if if if

4026
04:01:01,600 --> 04:01:05,000
Speaker 1: people didn't want, if didn't spend money on things they like,

4027
04:01:05,200 --> 04:01:08,520
Speaker 1: free to pay games would not work like fundamentally as

4028
04:01:08,520 --> 04:01:11,880
Speaker 1: a model. Yeah, no, definitely definitely the idea of like, yeah,

4029
04:01:11,920 --> 04:01:14,520
Speaker 1: you get someone starts to enjoying the service, then they

4030
04:01:14,560 --> 04:01:18,040
Speaker 1: start paying for it, whether it be buying useless you know,

4031
04:01:18,720 --> 04:01:22,040
Speaker 1: skin for whatever third person shooter you have, or that

4032
04:01:22,160 --> 04:01:24,960
Speaker 1: be you know, buying books or copies of of the

4033
04:01:25,000 --> 04:01:29,280
Speaker 1: film or like anime, body pillows, whatever, like you do,

4034
04:01:29,360 --> 04:01:31,360
Speaker 1: you want to financially support the things that you enjoy.

4035
04:01:31,440 --> 04:01:33,160
Speaker 1: This is just a part of this is what humans do.

4036
04:01:33,760 --> 04:01:36,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, maybe more stuff should be have the option

4037
04:01:36,400 --> 04:01:38,880
Speaker 1: of being free. Uh, that definitely might take on it.

4038
04:01:39,320 --> 04:01:41,040
Speaker 1: Let's let's have a quick let's have a bit of

4039
04:01:41,040 --> 04:01:44,400
Speaker 1: an ad. Speaking of free content, this podcast is brought

4040
04:01:44,400 --> 04:01:47,440
Speaker 1: to you by these lovely sponsors, so you can listen

4041
04:01:47,560 --> 04:01:50,360
Speaker 1: for free while just skipping the ads. So good for you.

4042
04:01:51,520 --> 04:01:54,160
Speaker 1: We're back and now we're gonna talk about different ways

4043
04:01:54,200 --> 04:01:59,520
Speaker 1: of bypassing pay walls, specifically for online news, because paywalls

4044
04:01:59,520 --> 04:02:02,960
Speaker 1: frustrating and as someone who likes messing around with kind

4045
04:02:02,960 --> 04:02:05,520
Speaker 1: of computer e stuff, there's definitely a long list of

4046
04:02:05,520 --> 04:02:07,560
Speaker 1: ways to buy pass pay walls depending on what types

4047
04:02:07,560 --> 04:02:11,480
Speaker 1: of paywalls we are talking about. So types of pay

4048
04:02:11,480 --> 04:02:14,080
Speaker 1: walls there are. There are typically two general types of

4049
04:02:14,080 --> 04:02:17,560
Speaker 1: pay walls. There's hard pay walls and soft pay walls. Um.

4050
04:02:17,760 --> 04:02:22,000
Speaker 1: Hard pay walls require payment upfront, so usually some some

4051
04:02:22,080 --> 04:02:26,280
Speaker 1: form of subscription fee before accessing any content. Websites with

4052
04:02:26,480 --> 04:02:28,320
Speaker 1: hard pay walls, maybe we'll act you lead like a

4053
04:02:28,320 --> 04:02:31,600
Speaker 1: tiny snippet of the article, but you need access, you

4054
04:02:31,640 --> 04:02:33,800
Speaker 1: need you need to pay subscription to access the full

4055
04:02:33,840 --> 04:02:38,520
Speaker 1: the full content. Soft pay walls are are are typically

4056
04:02:38,560 --> 04:02:43,240
Speaker 1: allow you to read a number of articles before you

4057
04:02:43,280 --> 04:02:46,000
Speaker 1: need to buy buy a subscription. So it's ei there's

4058
04:02:46,080 --> 04:02:48,400
Speaker 1: you have a set number of articles that you can

4059
04:02:48,440 --> 04:02:51,680
Speaker 1: read for a fixed period or session. Um, there's you know,

4060
04:02:51,720 --> 04:02:53,200
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of a lot of websites

4061
04:02:53,240 --> 04:02:55,880
Speaker 1: operate like this. Most of New York Times operates like this.

4062
04:02:56,000 --> 04:02:57,640
Speaker 1: A lot of a lot a lot of news sites

4063
04:02:57,680 --> 04:02:59,840
Speaker 1: have a soft pay wall model, which is great because

4064
04:03:00,040 --> 04:03:04,080
Speaker 1: typically a little bit easier to bypass first first method.

4065
04:03:04,160 --> 04:03:06,400
Speaker 1: This works some of the time. It depends on how

4066
04:03:06,480 --> 04:03:09,400
Speaker 1: the website is constructed, but you can try to stop

4067
04:03:09,400 --> 04:03:13,480
Speaker 1: the loading page before it fully loads. Uh, so generally

4068
04:03:13,480 --> 04:03:17,640
Speaker 1: a quick technique. It's effective on several different types of webpages. Uh.

4069
04:03:17,960 --> 04:03:19,640
Speaker 1: You have to stop your browser from fully loading the

4070
04:03:19,680 --> 04:03:22,360
Speaker 1: webpage as soon as your breaser displays the text element

4071
04:03:22,480 --> 04:03:25,000
Speaker 1: of the paywell to content. So you you know, enter

4072
04:03:25,080 --> 04:03:27,960
Speaker 1: a page U R L into the search bar, press enter,

4073
04:03:28,360 --> 04:03:30,720
Speaker 1: and then press the x icon or the escape key

4074
04:03:30,920 --> 04:03:32,360
Speaker 1: as soon as you see some of the text on

4075
04:03:32,440 --> 04:03:36,680
Speaker 1: screen before a paywall window pops up. UM. A major

4076
04:03:36,720 --> 04:03:38,840
Speaker 1: limitation of this is that stopping the website may not

4077
04:03:38,920 --> 04:03:41,240
Speaker 1: load all content elements, so it may only render like

4078
04:03:41,280 --> 04:03:43,520
Speaker 1: a portion of the text, or it may like miss

4079
04:03:43,560 --> 04:03:47,360
Speaker 1: out on like files like images, animations, or videos. Um.

4080
04:03:47,400 --> 04:03:51,000
Speaker 1: And it also depends on the order of which the

4081
04:03:51,040 --> 04:03:54,440
Speaker 1: website loads the page elements. So for example, if the

4082
04:03:54,480 --> 04:03:58,080
Speaker 1: website loads to pay well first, then this trick won't

4083
04:03:58,280 --> 04:04:01,080
Speaker 1: be successful. Also, you got be kind of pretty fast

4084
04:04:01,120 --> 04:04:03,280
Speaker 1: in order to make this one work. Typically this isn't

4085
04:04:03,320 --> 04:04:05,640
Speaker 1: the first way I do it, because there's generally generally

4086
04:04:05,680 --> 04:04:08,680
Speaker 1: easier ways. But if you can do this, then cool.

4087
04:04:08,840 --> 04:04:10,720
Speaker 1: It's definitely it's definitely a fast one if you can

4088
04:04:10,800 --> 04:04:13,920
Speaker 1: get it to succeed for soft paywall. So like I

4089
04:04:14,240 --> 04:04:19,040
Speaker 1: I will say The stopping the browser from loading is

4090
04:04:19,080 --> 04:04:23,280
Speaker 1: actually successful at some hard paywall sites because if they

4091
04:04:23,360 --> 04:04:25,640
Speaker 1: do like load a portion of the text to read

4092
04:04:25,880 --> 04:04:28,560
Speaker 1: as like a stippet, sometimes it will actually load the

4093
04:04:28,640 --> 04:04:30,160
Speaker 1: entire text, but then just block it off with a

4094
04:04:30,200 --> 04:04:33,040
Speaker 1: separate window. So sometimes with a hard paywall, you can

4095
04:04:33,040 --> 04:04:36,280
Speaker 1: actually stop it via this method, So that's always fun UM.

4096
04:04:36,320 --> 04:04:40,480
Speaker 1: But second method, generally more for soft paywalls, is for

4097
04:04:40,720 --> 04:04:44,120
Speaker 1: is to delete your pages cookies. So you know, websites

4098
04:04:44,200 --> 04:04:48,200
Speaker 1: store cookies to track your browser UM activities, including how

4099
04:04:48,280 --> 04:04:51,960
Speaker 1: much content you've accessed. So blog publishers, news newspaper sites

4100
04:04:52,400 --> 04:04:54,680
Speaker 1: can track the number of fage articles you've read using

4101
04:04:54,680 --> 04:04:57,040
Speaker 1: the cookies stored on your browser. If you hit the

4102
04:04:57,080 --> 04:05:01,960
Speaker 1: limit for for non subscribe ors, if like the limited

4103
04:05:02,080 --> 04:05:05,360
Speaker 1: articles allotted, then you can delete the website cookies to

4104
04:05:05,520 --> 04:05:08,760
Speaker 1: refresh the to refresh that counter and it will possibly

4105
04:05:08,800 --> 04:05:11,480
Speaker 1: reset the limit of articles UM. You can go to

4106
04:05:11,520 --> 04:05:13,720
Speaker 1: the privacy or security section of your web browsers, like

4107
04:05:13,800 --> 04:05:15,720
Speaker 1: the option that allows you to check the cookies and

4108
04:05:15,760 --> 04:05:18,880
Speaker 1: site for all data and then search for the website

4109
04:05:18,880 --> 04:05:21,520
Speaker 1: that you're looking for in the in the cookie management

4110
04:05:21,560 --> 04:05:24,000
Speaker 1: page and then click remove all. You can do this

4111
04:05:24,040 --> 04:05:27,440
Speaker 1: on like Firefox, Chrome, Microsoft Edge if you want to

4112
04:05:27,480 --> 04:05:33,160
Speaker 1: use that for some reason. Um safari. Yeah, but this

4113
04:05:33,200 --> 04:05:36,200
Speaker 1: trick may not work very well on hard pay walls

4114
04:05:36,720 --> 04:05:39,800
Speaker 1: because it that's that they don't really use cookies for

4115
04:05:39,840 --> 04:05:42,560
Speaker 1: the same purpose. And also you'll have to, you know,

4116
04:05:42,800 --> 04:05:44,640
Speaker 1: do if you're doing if you're doing this for soft

4117
04:05:44,640 --> 04:05:46,320
Speaker 1: pay walls, you have to do it every time you

4118
04:05:46,320 --> 04:05:50,440
Speaker 1: you reach the limit. Um. And if this won't work

4119
04:05:50,600 --> 04:05:54,160
Speaker 1: if the website is using other kind of more advanced

4120
04:05:54,240 --> 04:05:57,600
Speaker 1: tools to track your activity, like I p logs, right,

4121
04:05:57,680 --> 04:06:00,000
Speaker 1: so if it's tracking your AP data instead of your cookies,

4122
04:06:00,360 --> 04:06:03,640
Speaker 1: then this probably won't work. So this one's this one.

4123
04:06:03,880 --> 04:06:05,800
Speaker 1: I mean you you should clear cookies every once in

4124
04:06:05,840 --> 04:06:09,080
Speaker 1: a while anyway, just like generally a good practice, but

4125
04:06:09,320 --> 04:06:11,040
Speaker 1: to do this all the time, it's kind of a

4126
04:06:11,080 --> 04:06:13,480
Speaker 1: kind of a bit of work, especially because the next

4127
04:06:13,560 --> 04:06:16,200
Speaker 1: method is typically easier and does the same thing, which

4128
04:06:16,240 --> 04:06:19,560
Speaker 1: is just reading articles inside a private or incognito mode

4129
04:06:19,680 --> 04:06:23,400
Speaker 1: or in the tour browser. Um. So, as as as

4130
04:06:23,480 --> 04:06:25,680
Speaker 1: as explained earlier, not all paywalls are about the same.

4131
04:06:25,920 --> 04:06:27,800
Speaker 1: If you know, if a website uses a soft paywall,

4132
04:06:28,160 --> 04:06:31,040
Speaker 1: you should be able to read a subscription based content

4133
04:06:31,120 --> 04:06:34,680
Speaker 1: through incongnito or private browsing, because it'll check the it'll

4134
04:06:34,720 --> 04:06:36,880
Speaker 1: it'll check the website into thinking you're a brand new visitor,

4135
04:06:37,840 --> 04:06:41,080
Speaker 1: granting you access to the content before it had before

4136
04:06:41,120 --> 04:06:43,920
Speaker 1: it racks up enough of views to uh to throw

4137
04:06:43,960 --> 04:06:46,480
Speaker 1: up the paywall window. So this is this is a

4138
04:06:46,520 --> 04:06:49,040
Speaker 1: lot easier than just manually to leading the companies every

4139
04:06:49,080 --> 04:06:54,440
Speaker 1: single time, because yeah, most web browsers do not transmit

4140
04:06:54,560 --> 04:06:58,800
Speaker 1: pre existing cookies onto an incognito or private mode browser mode,

4141
04:06:59,160 --> 04:07:01,440
Speaker 1: so it doesn't much of those back over. And then

4142
04:07:02,360 --> 04:07:05,800
Speaker 1: although the website will deposit new cookies on your browser

4143
04:07:05,960 --> 04:07:08,640
Speaker 1: during private browsing sessions, they will be removed as soon

4144
04:07:08,640 --> 04:07:11,800
Speaker 1: as you close the window. Uh. One bummer is that

4145
04:07:11,880 --> 04:07:15,000
Speaker 1: some news pages are getting wise and actually are programming

4146
04:07:15,040 --> 04:07:17,200
Speaker 1: their websites to be able to be able to detect

4147
04:07:17,240 --> 04:07:20,160
Speaker 1: if they're opened in a private or browsing mode or

4148
04:07:20,200 --> 04:07:22,680
Speaker 1: even on tour um and they just like won't open.

4149
04:07:22,720 --> 04:07:26,080
Speaker 1: They'll they'll say, sorry, you have to. We we've detected

4150
04:07:26,120 --> 04:07:27,920
Speaker 1: that you're using this in private browsing mode to view

4151
04:07:27,960 --> 04:07:31,160
Speaker 1: this content. Boot up a regular browser, which which really

4152
04:07:31,160 --> 04:07:32,960
Speaker 1: sucks for the tour users because a lot of people

4153
04:07:33,840 --> 04:07:37,000
Speaker 1: are like, hey, yeah, I'm in China, I'm trying to

4154
04:07:37,000 --> 04:07:40,200
Speaker 1: get past the great firewall and fuck you eat ship.

4155
04:07:40,280 --> 04:07:43,200
Speaker 1: You should have somehow paid a subscription service to us

4156
04:07:43,760 --> 04:07:47,760
Speaker 1: to see information on this site that is literally illegal here,

4157
04:07:48,120 --> 04:07:50,680
Speaker 1: Like it's great, it's really bad for people who are

4158
04:07:50,720 --> 04:07:54,600
Speaker 1: like actually facing government censorship who need to use tour

4159
04:07:54,720 --> 04:07:58,000
Speaker 1: to view content. So yeah, that that is Uh, it's

4160
04:07:58,000 --> 04:08:01,760
Speaker 1: what we call a major bummer, A major sucks a

4161
04:08:01,800 --> 04:08:06,680
Speaker 1: major Oh no, capitalism did a whoopsie. Um Yeah, but yeah,

4162
04:08:06,720 --> 04:08:08,440
Speaker 1: this is definitely this is one of the modes I

4163
04:08:08,480 --> 04:08:10,760
Speaker 1: do most often. It's like I can typically get get

4164
04:08:10,800 --> 04:08:12,680
Speaker 1: a lot of sites to be able to view through

4165
04:08:12,680 --> 04:08:16,320
Speaker 1: incong unit or private or private browsing. But again it

4166
04:08:16,360 --> 04:08:19,120
Speaker 1: does depend on what the site is h is built

4167
04:08:19,200 --> 04:08:23,080
Speaker 1: to do. But bar far my favorite method. Oh yes,

4168
04:08:23,480 --> 04:08:25,200
Speaker 1: I'll mention. Another one that I don't really use very

4169
04:08:25,200 --> 04:08:29,440
Speaker 1: often is the paywall or removable extensions for for your browser,

4170
04:08:29,480 --> 04:08:32,960
Speaker 1: which is like third party browser extensions which try to

4171
04:08:33,080 --> 04:08:37,320
Speaker 1: automatically bypass paywalls. These are really hit and miss, um

4172
04:08:37,360 --> 04:08:39,680
Speaker 1: and it's they're also a really great way to get nice,

4173
04:08:40,000 --> 04:08:43,880
Speaker 1: fancy malware onto your computer. Um, so I would I

4174
04:08:43,920 --> 04:08:46,680
Speaker 1: typically steer clear of this, but there there is allegedly

4175
04:08:47,040 --> 04:08:50,960
Speaker 1: a browser extension called bypass paywalls for Chrome and Firefox

4176
04:08:51,280 --> 04:08:54,520
Speaker 1: that allegedly has been found to be effective, um that

4177
04:08:54,560 --> 04:08:57,880
Speaker 1: allows you to read the subscription based articles on hundreds

4178
04:08:57,920 --> 04:09:01,160
Speaker 1: of publications like New York Times, wire Wall Street Journal,

4179
04:09:01,240 --> 04:09:04,880
Speaker 1: Washington Post. Um it is, it is. It is free,

4180
04:09:04,880 --> 04:09:06,600
Speaker 1: but you have to manually load it onto your browser.

4181
04:09:06,920 --> 04:09:09,160
Speaker 1: And just typically amount a big fan of browser extensions

4182
04:09:09,200 --> 04:09:11,160
Speaker 1: in the first place, so I kind of steer clear

4183
04:09:11,160 --> 04:09:14,160
Speaker 1: of these, but some some some people, some people swear

4184
04:09:14,200 --> 04:09:17,440
Speaker 1: by them, so maybe maybe they can work. They're they're

4185
04:09:17,480 --> 04:09:22,160
Speaker 1: they're not only my thing, but my favorite method is

4186
04:09:22,560 --> 04:09:27,040
Speaker 1: archive websites, uh, specifically archived dot is. So there are

4187
04:09:27,160 --> 04:09:29,920
Speaker 1: internet archiving tools that preserve copies of web pages and

4188
04:09:29,960 --> 04:09:33,280
Speaker 1: social media posts for reference purposes, and you can use

4189
04:09:33,320 --> 04:09:36,680
Speaker 1: these tools to access pabled content and read subscription based

4190
04:09:36,680 --> 04:09:40,840
Speaker 1: news articles for free, including a lot of hard paywalled pages.

4191
04:09:41,920 --> 04:09:44,160
Speaker 1: Archive dot i S or archive dot is is my

4192
04:09:44,160 --> 04:09:48,480
Speaker 1: favorite one. Um. Also it's it functions under archive dot today.

4193
04:09:49,120 --> 04:09:51,120
Speaker 1: Uh just it just it depends on what surfers they're

4194
04:09:51,160 --> 04:09:53,560
Speaker 1: running at the moment. Of course, there's also the classic

4195
04:09:53,640 --> 04:09:57,160
Speaker 1: and pretty reliable archive dot org which has a nice

4196
04:09:57,600 --> 04:10:00,560
Speaker 1: calendar feature. But it's definitely good to check both of

4197
04:10:00,560 --> 04:10:03,400
Speaker 1: these because sometimes an article will be archived on archived

4198
04:10:03,400 --> 04:10:06,120
Speaker 1: dot is really easily and it won't be are available

4199
04:10:06,120 --> 04:10:07,960
Speaker 1: on archive dot org. Sometimes it will be on archive

4200
04:10:08,000 --> 04:10:10,920
Speaker 1: dot org and not archive dot is currently the one

4201
04:10:10,960 --> 04:10:14,080
Speaker 1: that's currently live. I think it's not pH It automatically

4202
04:10:14,080 --> 04:10:16,000
Speaker 1: switch is usually I could. I usually just type in

4203
04:10:16,040 --> 04:10:19,520
Speaker 1: our cave dot is um and it switches me over automatically.

4204
04:10:20,320 --> 04:10:22,680
Speaker 1: But yes, there is, there is, there is. There is

4205
04:10:22,720 --> 04:10:26,160
Speaker 1: a few of them. Yeah, yeah, you are right correct.

4206
04:10:26,440 --> 04:10:29,760
Speaker 1: It does automatically revert to archive dot phr at the moment,

4207
04:10:30,440 --> 04:10:32,360
Speaker 1: so yeah, But these are the ones I use the

4208
04:10:32,400 --> 04:10:35,960
Speaker 1: most because people who have access to hard paywlled content

4209
04:10:36,520 --> 04:10:40,520
Speaker 1: will often archives the hard paywlled stuff so it's available

4210
04:10:40,520 --> 04:10:44,040
Speaker 1: to people without the paywall. This this this can include

4211
04:10:44,040 --> 04:10:47,320
Speaker 1: the screenshot mode for archive dot is and the regular

4212
04:10:47,400 --> 04:10:50,320
Speaker 1: archival method for archive dot org. But both these are

4213
04:10:50,320 --> 04:10:53,640
Speaker 1: great um and they're also really good for looking at

4214
04:10:53,800 --> 04:10:56,240
Speaker 1: past versions of the articles, so you can look to

4215
04:10:56,280 --> 04:10:59,280
Speaker 1: see what how the articles have changed over time, and

4216
04:10:59,360 --> 04:11:02,720
Speaker 1: so are great research tools. And our chaive dot is

4217
04:11:02,720 --> 04:11:04,920
Speaker 1: is very easy to even upload stuff yourself, even if

4218
04:11:04,960 --> 04:11:08,640
Speaker 1: you don't have um the paywall, Like, even if you're

4219
04:11:08,640 --> 04:11:11,360
Speaker 1: blocked off from reading the full thing, you can try

4220
04:11:11,400 --> 04:11:13,560
Speaker 1: to submit it to our chave dot is and there's

4221
04:11:13,560 --> 04:11:16,240
Speaker 1: a good chance and actually grab an unpaid walled version

4222
04:11:16,240 --> 04:11:18,440
Speaker 1: of it because because of how because of how the

4223
04:11:18,440 --> 04:11:21,880
Speaker 1: site works. So let's go to urchive dot pH r

4224
04:11:22,160 --> 04:11:24,800
Speaker 1: or or urchived dot is, enter the web page u

4225
04:11:24,920 --> 04:11:27,720
Speaker 1: r L that you're wanting to access in the designated

4226
04:11:27,960 --> 04:11:31,040
Speaker 1: dialect box at the bottom. It's like save. It'll go

4227
04:11:31,080 --> 04:11:34,200
Speaker 1: through a little process, um, and then then you will

4228
04:11:34,480 --> 04:11:36,240
Speaker 1: then you'll be able to selec the screenshot mode or

4229
04:11:36,240 --> 04:11:38,600
Speaker 1: the webpage mode and be able to see what type

4230
04:11:38,600 --> 04:11:41,880
Speaker 1: of thing in archives? It's pretty it's pretty cool. Um.

4231
04:11:42,040 --> 04:11:44,800
Speaker 1: It's The last thing I'll mention is outline dot com

4232
04:11:45,160 --> 04:11:48,560
Speaker 1: and twelve foot Ladder. These are web based tools, but

4233
04:11:48,680 --> 04:11:52,400
Speaker 1: not specifically archival sites. They're generally used to just get

4234
04:11:52,480 --> 04:11:55,320
Speaker 1: to the text of an article it would via like

4235
04:11:55,480 --> 04:12:00,240
Speaker 1: web page nonsense and bypassing paywall stuff. Unfortunately, websites also

4236
04:12:00,240 --> 04:12:03,600
Speaker 1: gotten wise to this, so stuff like New York Times

4237
04:12:03,640 --> 04:12:05,360
Speaker 1: and Wall Street Journal have figured out a way to

4238
04:12:05,360 --> 04:12:08,280
Speaker 1: get to these sites blocked so you cannot use outline

4239
04:12:08,280 --> 04:12:10,680
Speaker 1: dot com or twelve foot Ladder on them, but they

4240
04:12:10,760 --> 04:12:12,760
Speaker 1: still work on stuff like the Washington Post. So it

4241
04:12:12,800 --> 04:12:16,720
Speaker 1: always depends, but I definitely generally will prefer the archive

4242
04:12:16,840 --> 04:12:19,600
Speaker 1: dot is and archive dot org method to viewing any

4243
04:12:19,640 --> 04:12:24,200
Speaker 1: kind of pay old content. Um. Yeah, and that's kind

4244
04:12:24,200 --> 04:12:26,080
Speaker 1: of my I mean, I'm not now, I'm not going

4245
04:12:26,160 --> 04:12:28,640
Speaker 1: to explain how to do like regular piracy on the

4246
04:12:28,640 --> 04:12:32,600
Speaker 1: podcast because I don't have enough time, but like it's easy. Yeah,

4247
04:12:32,680 --> 04:12:34,560
Speaker 1: there are there are lots of people who will tell you.

4248
04:12:34,720 --> 04:12:38,080
Speaker 1: I mean, like kiss Cartoon is like a very popular website,

4249
04:12:38,280 --> 04:12:40,120
Speaker 1: Like you don't even need to, like you don't even

4250
04:12:40,160 --> 04:12:42,120
Speaker 1: have to like properly tour and stuff anymore. There is

4251
04:12:42,200 --> 04:12:45,520
Speaker 1: like so much piraated media of help. Yeah, and it's

4252
04:12:45,520 --> 04:12:47,160
Speaker 1: like okay, so like you've gotta be a little bit

4253
04:12:47,160 --> 04:12:48,920
Speaker 1: careful when your parting stuff. Sounds like you can get

4254
04:12:48,960 --> 04:12:53,560
Speaker 1: copyright strike, but if you stream it, they don't copy

4255
04:12:53,640 --> 04:12:56,640
Speaker 1: and strike you for that. So yeah, yeah, I guess

4256
04:12:57,160 --> 04:12:59,520
Speaker 1: the other thing I will plug is a plex, which

4257
04:12:59,600 --> 04:13:03,360
Speaker 1: is a kind of an online movie hosting service like Netflix,

4258
04:13:03,400 --> 04:13:05,880
Speaker 1: except you upload all of the content to it, so

4259
04:13:06,360 --> 04:13:09,480
Speaker 1: let's say you buy Blu Rays, it comes it comes

4260
04:13:09,520 --> 04:13:12,280
Speaker 1: with the digital download code, So now you can upload

4261
04:13:12,320 --> 04:13:16,480
Speaker 1: the digital copy into PLEX and watch that wherever you want,

4262
04:13:16,520 --> 04:13:18,520
Speaker 1: as long as you're signed into to the PLEX account

4263
04:13:18,520 --> 04:13:20,920
Speaker 1: and you actually own the stuff on the service. So

4264
04:13:20,960 --> 04:13:22,640
Speaker 1: as long as the services online, you can use it

4265
04:13:22,680 --> 04:13:25,760
Speaker 1: because you actually own the stuff on it. UM. That

4266
04:13:25,800 --> 04:13:28,280
Speaker 1: includes if you have if you have pirated versions of

4267
04:13:28,320 --> 04:13:31,120
Speaker 1: movies downloaded, you can upload this versions onto Plex then

4268
04:13:31,200 --> 04:13:33,600
Speaker 1: then delete the actual hard copies of it on your

4269
04:13:33,600 --> 04:13:35,600
Speaker 1: hard drive and then just watch the ones in PLEX

4270
04:13:35,640 --> 04:13:38,600
Speaker 1: and you're totally fine. So PLEX is great for having

4271
04:13:39,200 --> 04:13:41,560
Speaker 1: like ease of access because right sometimes I don't want

4272
04:13:41,560 --> 04:13:44,880
Speaker 1: to sort through my Blu ray discs and make sure

4273
04:13:44,920 --> 04:13:46,840
Speaker 1: that I have a Blu ray player with me so

4274
04:13:47,120 --> 04:13:49,400
Speaker 1: to watch my stuff. So using PLEX is a great

4275
04:13:49,440 --> 04:13:52,560
Speaker 1: wet method to keep your stuff that you actually own

4276
04:13:52,920 --> 04:13:55,960
Speaker 1: accessible online to watch it as long as you sign

4277
04:13:56,000 --> 04:13:58,680
Speaker 1: into a web browser. Um. And the last thing I'll

4278
04:13:58,680 --> 04:14:04,400
Speaker 1: plug is library submission forms. So if you really want

4279
04:14:04,600 --> 04:14:06,920
Speaker 1: media and you don't wanna pay for it and you

4280
04:14:06,920 --> 04:14:09,880
Speaker 1: don't want to like pirate necessarily, you can get libraries

4281
04:14:09,920 --> 04:14:12,680
Speaker 1: to buy stuff. UM. I did this all the time

4282
04:14:12,720 --> 04:14:15,160
Speaker 1: when I was younger, I I found out that you

4283
04:14:15,160 --> 04:14:19,320
Speaker 1: can submit items for purchase via via via the library

4284
04:14:19,360 --> 04:14:24,920
Speaker 1: on the online forum, and I submitted so many comic books. Uh,

4285
04:14:25,920 --> 04:14:27,920
Speaker 1: most of the comic books, I would say, I'm not

4286
04:14:28,280 --> 04:14:30,040
Speaker 1: like a good majority of the comic books in the

4287
04:14:30,040 --> 04:14:34,040
Speaker 1: Molton County Library system are because of me. Every every Wednesday,

4288
04:14:34,080 --> 04:14:36,200
Speaker 1: when a new trade paperback would be released, I would

4289
04:14:36,280 --> 04:14:39,280
Speaker 1: upload it to the library submission form and they would

4290
04:14:39,280 --> 04:14:41,280
Speaker 1: buy it. Uh, and not just one coffee, they would

4291
04:14:41,280 --> 04:14:45,680
Speaker 1: buy like twelve copies. So there's so many Batman comics

4292
04:14:45,960 --> 04:14:48,720
Speaker 1: in the in the in the moultonom Coney system because

4293
04:14:48,800 --> 04:14:52,120
Speaker 1: I would studiously upload upload all that stuff so that

4294
04:14:52,120 --> 04:14:53,560
Speaker 1: I didn't need to pay for comics. I could just

4295
04:14:53,680 --> 04:14:57,040
Speaker 1: get them from the from the library. So definitely look

4296
04:14:57,080 --> 04:14:59,840
Speaker 1: into library submissions to kind of grow what your library

4297
04:14:59,840 --> 04:15:02,800
Speaker 1: had us in stock, and then also looking to see

4298
04:15:02,880 --> 04:15:05,160
Speaker 1: what other things your libraries doing, because I know more

4299
04:15:05,200 --> 04:15:08,000
Speaker 1: libraries are looking into building like maker spaces and like

4300
04:15:08,080 --> 04:15:12,080
Speaker 1: tool libraries to um have access to things that are

4301
04:15:12,080 --> 04:15:15,120
Speaker 1: not just like books. You know, power tools, and then

4302
04:15:15,240 --> 04:15:17,240
Speaker 1: you know how to access to even cool stuff like

4303
04:15:17,480 --> 04:15:21,560
Speaker 1: stuff like vacuum formers and like three, three printers, laser cutters.

4304
04:15:21,600 --> 04:15:24,320
Speaker 1: All these things are kind of growing. So look into

4305
04:15:24,360 --> 04:15:26,600
Speaker 1: what your library is doing, because oftentimes libraries have some

4306
04:15:26,600 --> 04:15:29,920
Speaker 1: pretty cool stuff. Um. So yeah, this is my little

4307
04:15:30,240 --> 04:15:33,760
Speaker 1: little bit on why I don't like paywalls, why I

4308
04:15:33,760 --> 04:15:36,640
Speaker 1: think content should be free because it actually helps creators

4309
04:15:36,640 --> 04:15:39,080
Speaker 1: in the long run. Any anyway, and how to get

4310
04:15:39,120 --> 04:15:41,360
Speaker 1: past news articles that don't want you to read them

4311
04:15:41,360 --> 04:15:45,560
Speaker 1: without paying too much money. Yep. And remember, folks, if

4312
04:15:45,600 --> 04:15:48,840
Speaker 1: your Pan invaded your country pirrating anime as reparations. If

4313
04:15:48,840 --> 04:15:51,280
Speaker 1: you're mad about this tweet, find me on Twitter and

4314
04:15:51,400 --> 04:15:54,360
Speaker 1: I write, okay, yeah, make sure your tweet and I right,

4315
04:15:54,400 --> 04:15:57,520
Speaker 1: okay if you have complaints about that take So yeah,

4316
04:15:57,640 --> 04:15:59,920
Speaker 1: that is that is my little my my little bit

4317
04:16:00,040 --> 04:16:04,800
Speaker 1: talking about piracy ar and uh and yeah, I mean

4318
04:16:05,120 --> 04:16:07,280
Speaker 1: morest we should, we should, we should? I think I

4319
04:16:07,320 --> 04:16:09,320
Speaker 1: think it's I've always had I've always hold this opinion

4320
04:16:09,320 --> 04:16:10,880
Speaker 1: that I think we can all learn a lot of

4321
04:16:10,920 --> 04:16:14,200
Speaker 1: lessons from the sonic the hedgehog. Um. And I think

4322
04:16:14,240 --> 04:16:16,880
Speaker 1: one of the greatest ones is that turns out when

4323
04:16:16,920 --> 04:16:20,280
Speaker 1: you make stuff available to use, uh for free and

4324
04:16:20,320 --> 04:16:23,320
Speaker 1: allow emulation, people like people like people like the stuff.

4325
04:16:23,320 --> 04:16:26,280
Speaker 1: More people enjoy it, and it will actually support official

4326
04:16:26,360 --> 04:16:29,280
Speaker 1: uses of it as well. So more stuff for free,

4327
04:16:29,760 --> 04:16:34,600
Speaker 1: more more library based economies, and having having gold rings,

4328
04:16:34,680 --> 04:16:37,200
Speaker 1: having an enormous number of gold rings makes you nearly invincible.

4329
04:16:37,440 --> 04:16:39,200
Speaker 1: That that is this is this is also true. I

4330
04:16:39,200 --> 04:16:44,160
Speaker 1: mean the multiple franchises exist with that exact premise. Um. Yeah,

4331
04:16:44,360 --> 04:16:47,680
Speaker 1: so it turns out when you have more, more libraries,

4332
04:16:47,760 --> 04:16:57,080
Speaker 1: more rings, people are happier. Yep, that's the episode. Hey,

4333
04:16:57,160 --> 04:17:00,320
Speaker 1: we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

4334
04:17:00,320 --> 04:17:02,880
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe. It Could

4335
04:17:02,920 --> 04:17:05,280
Speaker 1: Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For

4336
04:17:05,360 --> 04:17:08,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website cool

4337
04:17:08,160 --> 04:17:10,160
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

4338
04:17:10,160 --> 04:17:12,880
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

4339
04:17:12,920 --> 04:17:15,840
Speaker 1: to podcasts. You can find sources for It Could Happen Here,

4340
04:17:15,920 --> 04:17:19,560
Speaker 1: updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources.

4341
04:17:19,560 --> 04:17:20,400
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.