1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stop 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 1: Work dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and my name is Christian Seger. 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: Hey Robert, he ever met a person who doesn't like music? 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: I do not think I've ever met anyone who just 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: across the board doesn't like music. I've certainly met plenty 7 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: of people who seem to dislike music in certain scenarios 8 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: because I'm the kind of type of types of music, well, 9 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: types of music, but also music in certain situations, like 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: I've certainly known people who don't like music while driving. 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: I'm of the mindset I want music on all the time, 12 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: just about music of my own choosing, but music. I 13 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: know a lot of our colleagues have difficulty writing while 14 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,279 Speaker 1: there's music on. I don't have that problem, although I 15 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: do like sort of cultivate playlists of stuff that helps 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: me to write, you know, mostly instrumental stuff. But there's 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: certain music that I can listen to that has vocals 18 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: that I can listen to all writing. But yeah, so 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: you know, I know, like you like, I've known like 20 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: various sort of iterations of people who can't listen to 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: music during certain times. I've only meant like one or 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: two people in my life who just don't. They literally 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: say I don't like music, And that's so alien, so 24 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: difficult for us to comprehend, because it's like hearing someone say, oh, 25 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: I don't I don't like food, like I don't like 26 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: drinking liquids. It almost seems inhuman in a way. And 27 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: I think like when you hear that, at least in 28 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: my experience, people will kind of think like, oh, that's 29 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: the trade of a psychopath, right, But it's not. It's 30 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: actually not. We've talked about psychopaths on the show and 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: that hasn't come up as one of the symptoms. But also, 32 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: as we're going to talk about today, this is a 33 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: real brain condition. Yeah, at least a couple of different 34 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: conditions we're going to discuss, and I think they both 35 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: serve to remind us just how tenuous our sensory experience 36 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: of the world really is. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean, like, 37 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: think about you and me, right, Like the audience probably knows, 38 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: if they don't already, that you are really into electronic 39 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: music and you cover it for stuff to blow your mind, 40 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: I'd say weekly, right, Yeah, and um, and I as 41 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 1: many people have heard on other episodes, grew up in 42 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: the punkin metal scene and still listen to a lot 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: of that stuff, which a lot of people find unlistenable 44 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: and dissonant, including you know, my wife and um, I'm 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: okay with that. But it's interesting because dissonance plays into 46 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: these diseases as well. Well, here's a quick question for you, 47 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: and I think this helps to sort of this helps 48 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: a lot of us, uh, try and comprehend what some 49 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: of these conditions are. Like, Yeah, like what what's the 50 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: type of music that you just really don't get that 51 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: you just you can't really listen to, you don't understand, 52 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: and and you're just willing to say, yeah, I that 53 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: is not for me usually like np R style jazz. 54 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to say jazz in general, because there's 55 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: plenty of stuff that's being done in that area that's 56 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: interesting and I like, but like that kind of like 57 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: background elevator music jazz, you know what I mean? Like 58 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: that that drives me crazy. It's like fingers on a 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: chalkboard for me. It's I have to say jazz as well. 60 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: And part of this could be I mean the view 61 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: I guess is the jazz takes some getting used to. 62 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: You have to be you have to immerse yourself in it. 63 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 1: And I like some jazz, and I like jazzy elements 64 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: and some of the music I listened to from time 65 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: to time. But it's that jazzy jazz that's spacey jazz, 66 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: that that completely unhinged jazz that just kind of gives 67 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 1: me to shape, making me think of this joke on 68 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: Parks and Rack. I don't know if you remember this, 69 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: but the their local MPR station, they had a show 70 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: and they would say jazz plus jazz equals jazz. Whenever 71 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: I hear something like that, I'm like, nope. There. In 72 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: the general, I often think about it that it's maybe 73 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 1: like a like a strong alcoholic property, you know, some 74 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: strong liqueur that you would never drink on your on 75 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: its own, but you would use in a recipe or 76 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: would you would certainly use in them using a mixed drink. 77 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: So I often think, well, that is that is the strong, 78 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: undeluded stuff that is not for me. Yeah, but you 79 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: can put a like a shot of it, or like 80 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: I will. I don't drink clearly, so shots a lot, 81 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 1: but you know a little bit, it's like adding grenadine 82 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: to your to your soda or something like, yeah, you 83 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: could drink and given a little flavor. Well, like punk 84 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: is is one of those things. I think about this 85 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: sometimes it's like pure punk. I just it's not my scene, 86 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: it's not what I dig. But I've certainly loved groups 87 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: that have elements of punk in their sound. They either 88 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: come out of punk or find some of their musical 89 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: genre to combine it with, Like um oh the Pokes 90 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: come to mind. Yeah, share a little bit of Irish music, 91 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: a little bit of punk music. It's really I would 92 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: be hard pressed to want to listen to Irish or 93 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: punk mu look on their own, but when these two 94 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: come together, then I you know, I've always enjoyed it. Yeah, No, 95 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: I can definitely see that, even like having spent many 96 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: a year in basements watching just like crusty punk bands 97 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: just hammering out four chord songs. Uh, I can understand 98 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,280 Speaker 1: where you're coming from and that that sort of has 99 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 1: led to like what a lot of our I guess, 100 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: like popular alternative music is nowadays. Right, it's like a 101 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: fusion of punk and jazz or punkin metal, or where 102 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 1: Joe and I were just talking the other night about 103 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: Scott like nineties and how that was sort of something 104 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, well, okay, enough about our musical interests. 105 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: But so clearly we're human beings who love music. We've 106 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,919 Speaker 1: got opinions about music. We like to talk about it, 107 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: we like to listen to it, we got to shows. Um. 108 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: But there's people out there who don't. And it's not 109 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: just because you know they don't, they don't go to 110 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: things like that, or they're just not. It's because there's 111 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 1: literally something going on in their brain that makes it 112 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: so that they're capable of enjoying music. Something's wired differently. 113 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: Some systems are online in a slightly different array, and 114 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: we will get into into these in a moment, but 115 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: before we do, without it be helpful to just go 116 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: ahead and give a nice overview of the cognitive experience 117 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: of music, just basically what's going on when we process it. 118 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: So music is of course a deep part of our 119 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: cognitive architecture. It changes our mood, it heightens our emotions, 120 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 1: it summons and banishes memories, It affects the manner in 121 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: which we preceive perceived time. Even we can actually use 122 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: it to treat illnesses of the mind and body. So 123 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: it's powerful stuff. It's potent stuff that's not even just 124 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: with human beings. There's been research done on plants that 125 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: music affects plants, so we're talking about some serious magic here. 126 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: There are parts of the brain that respond to music 127 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: that that don't respond to language. There are separate parts 128 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: of the brain that respond to melody, to the melody 129 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: of language, different than these different for the parts of 130 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: the brain the respond to the melody of music. They 131 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: are parts of the brain that deal with movement, attention, planning, 132 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: and memory, and these all respond to music even though 133 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,240 Speaker 1: they don't have anything to do with the actual auditory process. 134 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: So there's a lot going on behind the scenes, and 135 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: and we don't fully understand it yet. I mean, I 136 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: would say this research well, you know, we'll talk about 137 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: it later, but really, only in the last century have 138 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: we even been aware of this as a medical condition. 139 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: But only in maybe the last twenty or thirty years 140 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: has there have been like real deep research into what 141 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: this means. Yeah, and certainly there's a lot of wonderful 142 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: research out there about our relationship with music, and we 143 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: can't cover it all here, but just a couple of 144 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: i think illuminating studies to to touch on here um in. 145 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: In recent years, we found that you can look to 146 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: the brain via f m R I, and specifically you 147 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: can look at brain activity in the nucleus incumbence. This 148 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: is involved in the formation of expectations, and we can 149 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: actually tell if a person is enjoying the music they're 150 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: listening to by looking at at brain activity in this region. 151 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 1: If it's meeting their musical expectations and matching up with 152 00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: the stored templates of what you've heard before, then you 153 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: see stuff light up. Um, yeah, I could absolutely believe 154 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: that given my experience with music. Yeah, Like if you're 155 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: just like I don't know, Like here's an example, Like 156 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: I walk around sometimes and I'll just have like my 157 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: entire music library on shuffle on my phone or something 158 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: like that, Like one like really great song from my 159 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 1: high school days will pop up, and it's like I 160 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: can feel like, whatever those lights are that are going 161 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: on in my brain just activate, you know. Yeah. Yeah. 162 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: The expectation plays such an interesting role in our experiencing music, 163 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: because on one hand, there's there's something that happens when 164 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: a when a melody or a tune or the lyrics 165 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: take you to that place you're expecting it to go 166 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: but then also when it goes to a slightly different 167 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,959 Speaker 1: place where it kind of you think it's going to 168 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: turn left and it turns right. But that animates you 169 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: as well. It's it's it's almost like narrative without words. Really. 170 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: Ah yeah, that's a really interesting way to put it. 171 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: I um, I'll just do a little bit of subjective 172 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: experience here to throw in here. I'm not like, personally 173 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: a big fan of The Cure, but a friend of 174 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: mine is, uh and if he's listening her, this is 175 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: your story. So The Cure just played in Atlanta recently, 176 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: like I think like two weeks ago. Did you know 177 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: about this? Oh? Yeah, I have. I have some friends 178 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: who are really they went to this show. So the 179 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: way that he told me was that, like, apparently this 180 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: tour was like you know, they're going to be playing 181 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: all their greatest hits or whatever, but that was sort 182 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: of like a different arrangement of the musical instruments. So 183 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: he was really excited because he's like, well, I'm gonna 184 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: hear the songs that I love and it's gonna be 185 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: played by the guys who wrote them, but they're going 186 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: to be playing them in very different ways than I'm 187 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: used to and that's a wholly new experience. Oh yeah, 188 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,959 Speaker 1: I've had an experience with I guess uh, tool has 189 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 1: been been worth seems like the kind of band that 190 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: would do something like that. They'll play with the intro 191 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: on something and so the live version at first you're 192 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: not sure what it's going to be, but then then 193 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: you realize, oh, it's it's this track, it's that track, whatever, 194 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: the particular track maybe, and there's this, you know, a 195 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: physical experience of excitement totally. When I was, you know, 196 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: still involved in the music scene and just go into 197 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: a lot of shows, the thing that was always the 198 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: most impressive to me, and that just showed like a 199 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: real classic professional touring band, was when they could play 200 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: an entire set without stopping, Like they would just start 201 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: and their songs. They had figured out ways to weave 202 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: their songs in and out of one another, so they 203 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: would just play like a really tight thirty forty minutes 204 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: set and then boom, they were done, got off on stage. 205 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: And that is the kind of thing that just floors you. 206 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: It's just like you don't have time to stop and 207 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 1: breathe and kind of judge them. Uh, for other factors 208 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: like whatever they're wearing, or what they say in between 209 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: songs or something. You're just like bombarded. Well, that's one 210 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: of the reasons that I've been so into DJ mixes 211 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: over the years. Uh, it's not quite the same as 212 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,840 Speaker 1: a as a band performing their entire set without stop, 213 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: but the the idea that you can take various musical 214 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: elements and and a talented DJ it can create a 215 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: seamless tapestry of sound. I love that, and certainly you 216 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: get those six surprises, those expectations met or skewed throughout 217 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: that sonic narrative as well. So all right, we're clearly 218 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: establishing that we're music nerds. We love music, and whatever 219 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: parts of the brain that don't work for for some 220 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 1: of these people, they're they're lighting up like fireworks for us. Now. 221 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: Another key point though, is certainly you've been to a 222 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: concert or performance and you've been experiencing the music, and 223 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: maybe you've seen somebody like clearly their significant other drug 224 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: them here and they're not enjoying it, or they got 225 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: a free ticket and you said drug them. I thought 226 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: drug early gave them drugs so that they would just 227 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: sit put. But yeah, that's that's that's possible, depending on 228 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: these both. Yeah, so you've seen people that are not 229 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:50,679 Speaker 1: into it, or they're they don't they're clearly they're the 230 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: first time or maybe they you don't feel like they 231 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: could possibly be enjoying the music on the same level 232 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: as you are. Yeah, possibly and and certainly like and 233 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: I have to applaud my wife again, like she's indulged 234 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 1: me by you know, sometimes I can't get a friend 235 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: to go with me to a particular kind of thing, 236 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: and she's like, all right, you know, let's I'll go 237 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: with you. You know, we'll go see Converge and High 238 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: on Fire. And she's just sitting there like shaking her 239 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: head while I'm like really into it, you know. Um, 240 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: so yeah, I get that. Well. It's interesting because despite 241 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: all of our very musical taste, in our varying levels 242 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: of engagement with particular types of music, particular performances, the 243 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 1: brain experiences that we have are actually pretty consistent among 244 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,959 Speaker 1: most people. There was a two thousand thirteen study publishing 245 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: the European Journal of Euroscience, and they found that if 246 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,320 Speaker 1: two people listened to the same track, one inexperienced fan 247 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: of the music and another not the other one. Just 248 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: like a newcomer you know, there's been dragged in there 249 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: by their spouse. You're still going to see the same 250 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:58,960 Speaker 1: synchronization in several key brain areas and similar brain activity. 251 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: So as much as you you know, might like to 252 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: think you're experiencing your favorite band and an entirely different 253 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: cognitive level than the you know, the dumb guy next 254 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: to you with the glories on his fingers, Um, that 255 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be quite the case. We're still engaging 256 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: like the same networks. I wonder if this is similar 257 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: to like research that's been done on depression and anxiety 258 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: in that like, Um, the more you listen to the 259 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: songs over and over again, right like, it's maybe it's 260 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: like a like writing over the same pathway of the 261 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 1: brain over and over and over again, so it makes 262 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: it easier for that experience to happen. It's happening in 263 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: the same way for everybody, but it's just kind of 264 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: going through the brain. I don't know how to describe 265 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: this other than with like road metaphors, right Like, it's 266 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 1: like going down the same road, but it's just like 267 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: going down faster for for us, or something that plays 268 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: in expectation right where the road is gonna turn, where 269 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: it's gonna split. Yeah. Interesting, huh. I wonder if anybody's 270 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: done research on that, like the the the experience of 271 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: having music encoded to the brain as being similar to 272 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: the sort of expectations that encode anxiety into people. Yeah. 273 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: I will have to follow up on that, because I 274 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: know there have been a number of studies that have 275 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: looked into, you know, the potential therapeutic aspects of music, 276 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: as well as the role of music and in various 277 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: emotional states. Yeah. Right, and you think about it, like 278 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: some of the emotional states that are created by listening 279 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: to music have very similar symptoms to anxiety. Huh. All right, 280 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: maybe that's a future episode. We'll have to dig deep 281 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: for that one. But let's take a quick break and 282 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: then when we come back, we're going to talk about 283 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: the condition of a musia or tone deafness. All right, 284 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: we're back. So this first one, tone deaf deafness, a musia. 285 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: I feel like this is gonna be the one where 286 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna see far more listeners who can share experiences 287 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: with this. Certainly we've probably all encounter people with varying 288 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: levels of tone deafness over the years. Yeah, and it 289 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: seems like tone deafness has variations on it, like extremes 290 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: or you know, some people have it to to less 291 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: an extent than others. The term congenital amusia is what 292 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: we use to denote tone deafness that you're born with. 293 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: It's been described in medical literature for more than a century, 294 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: and it manifests basically as a severe deficiency in processing 295 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: pitch variations. Now this extends to impairments in musical memory 296 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: and recognition, as well as what we traditionally think of 297 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: his tone deafness as like bad singing or the inability 298 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: to tap in time with music. Right um, everybody's right 299 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: now is probably thinking of like the person who I 300 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: don't know was inquired or something that they just couldn't 301 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: hit the notes. Yeah um. Some literature also refers to 302 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: a musia as dismelodia or dismusia, but the term amusia 303 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: is generally agreed to be preferable because it acknowledges the 304 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: possibility that there exists as many forms of congenital amusias 305 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: as there are forms of acquired amusias. And what I 306 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: mean by that is accidental brain damage. So you can 307 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: hurt yourself a variety of ways that will also produce 308 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: this effect. Now, to clarify, congenital means present from birth, 309 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: but it is possible to acquire a musia through brain 310 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: damage in life. The very first study that looked at 311 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: this was done in eighteen seventy eight by a guy 312 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: named Grant Allen, and he was investigating a thirty year 313 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: old man with a neurological lesion that gave him this, 314 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: as he referred to it, then severe musical handicap um. 315 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: And maybe some of you out there wondering right now, 316 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: like I can relate to this, is this me well, 317 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: it could be a recent study found that out of 318 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: a hundred people who self declared them selves as having 319 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 1: a handicap for music, only twenty two so actually exhibited 320 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: the traits of a musea after they were tested with 321 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 1: a formal questionnaire. And the way that this questionnaire worked. 322 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: It tested your aptitude for scale, interval and contour information, 323 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: as well as melodic organization dimension, rhythm and meter, and 324 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: temporal organization dimension. They also tested memory recognition ability connected 325 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 1: to music. Now, those who are tone deaf are generally 326 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: unable to hear the differences in pitch and tone that 327 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: the rest of us here, we joke about this, right, 328 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: you know that there's always like uh and I imagine 329 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: with like movies like Pitch Perfect or TV shows like Glee, like, 330 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: there must be tons of joke about jokes about tone Deafnessily, 331 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: it seems like every long running show ever has had 332 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: at least an episode where oh, it's the person who 333 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: can't sing, but they don't realize they can't sing us. 334 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: So it's a common enough of a thing that it 335 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: shows up in some pop culture narrative and we all 336 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: recognize it. Uh. We use the phrase really to describe 337 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 1: people who don't understand simple communication strategies to write, like 338 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: like even outside of it, we've turned into this metaphor 339 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: for like, ah, well, he's tone deaf, so that's why 340 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: he doesn't understand what we're talking about here. It's not 341 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: even we're using it on a on a level beyond 342 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: like its actual medical application. Right. And it's most extreme though, 343 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 1: People who are tone deaf are unable to even perceive 344 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: music the same way that the rest of us do, 345 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: and it comes down to an actual difference in their 346 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 1: brain structure. Uh. And it's different from those like you know, 347 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: Robert and myself for whom music comes naturally. Okay, it's 348 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: actually defined as a learning disability. There's a team from 349 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: the University of Montreal who have first published an empirical 350 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: study on it, and that's their delineation. So, for instance, 351 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: most children, and I didn't realize this, but this is 352 00:18:56,680 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: probably a common experience for you. Most children learned to 353 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: sing at the same time that they're learning to speak, right, 354 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: so they're like kind of like singing words. Like I 355 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: was a babysitting a friend of ours four year old 356 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,399 Speaker 1: the other night, and he was singing constantly, but then 357 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: he would just kind of talk to himself too. Oh yeah, 358 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: that's my experience with my son Bastion is um, there's 359 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of talking at this point 360 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 1: he's four, but there's also a lot of singing. He 361 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 1: will just burst into song about the silliest things, to 362 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,479 Speaker 1: the point we're just like, all right, you just you 363 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: can't sing about butter anymore. Just just eat, don't play 364 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: with the butter, and don't sing about the butter for 365 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: just consumed butter. Well, that sounds like he is not 366 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: tone deaf, because tone deaf children don't do this singing 367 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: when they're younger. Uh. And this is where this this 368 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: woman seems to be like the expert on this, Like 369 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: every study I was looking at, she was somehow involved 370 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 1: in Her name's Isabelle Perette's and that's when she gave 371 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: it the official disorder, congenital amusia. Uh. It's innate in 372 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: these people's brain, the lack of musical perception. And it's 373 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: also hereditary. Uh. They found that congenital amusia is genetically transmitted. 374 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: Thirty of the people who have first degree relatives with 375 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: this cognitive disorder also have it. However, if you look 376 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: at control groups, only three percent habit and control and 377 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,719 Speaker 1: control group families. However, congenital amusia doesn't seem to result 378 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: from any particular family environment. It's not like I don't know, Uh, 379 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: you can somehow connect it to like alcoholics or something 380 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: like that. Right, Like, there doesn't seem to be an 381 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: environmental source that's causing this. It seems to be genetic. Remember, 382 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: though genes don't specify cognitive function, they actually influence brain development. 383 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 1: So the next step that these researchers are looking at is, 384 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: let's identify the genes that relate to these neuroanatomical anomalies 385 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 1: that are found in the brains of people who have amusia. Now, interestingly, 386 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: that three percent control group almost lines up exactly with 387 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: what they've found to be the percentage of people in 388 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: the population who have it. Four percent seems to be 389 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,439 Speaker 1: the number of people in general population who are a 390 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: music They grow up with normal exposure to music and 391 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: are otherwise capable of doing everything else everybody else does. 392 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,119 Speaker 1: They're intelligent, they're educated. This only affects their ability to 393 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,680 Speaker 1: recognize pitch and music, and it doesn't apply to language. 394 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: This is the really fascinating part. Right. The musics can 395 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 1: process speech as well as environmental sounds like I don't know, 396 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 1: like an animal's cry or something right, or voices. They 397 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: can understand all of that. They can even understand the 398 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: pitch changes in different languages like you know a little Chinese. 399 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 1: I spent some time in China. You know how important 400 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: pitch is the difference in words. They're fine with that, 401 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: but it's only with the music that they have this 402 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: pitch problem. Well, it reminds me of some of the 403 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: bits we we discussed earlier about how our brains process 404 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: music and the idea that your brain is processing it 405 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: separately from the music itself. They based on all of 406 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: these other factors, So I guess it stands a reason 407 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: someone would even you know, fairly significant musa here could 408 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: still listen to, say a track with some really engaging lyrics, 409 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: of course, and they're gonna get some sort of lyrical 410 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: experience out of it. Yeah, and maybe maybe even something 411 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,159 Speaker 1: that is thinking of some of the more some of 412 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: the least musical music that I like, some of the 413 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: more noise branded stuff like, maybe they could listen to 414 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: that and appreciate that on some level that is not 415 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: as tied to the music, but still somehow tied to 416 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: a sonic experience of the thing. We are going to 417 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 1: get back to that. Yeah, there's a there's uh a 418 00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: way that dissonance in particular plays into both regular music 419 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: listening experience and a music listening experience. But there's actually 420 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: some music acts that are recorded that are fluent in 421 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: several languages, so this is it doesn't at all affect 422 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: their other communicative abilities. Uh. And the way that they 423 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 1: figured this out was they use these tests that were 424 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 1: originally designed to a sess the presence and specificity of 425 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: musical disorders and patients with brand damage. The big one 426 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: seems to be the difficulty in detecting pit related changes, right, 427 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 1: especially when that extends into dissonance, which a musical subjects 428 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: have little sensitivity too. So that's interesting, right. So, uh, 429 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: people who love music, when you create music that has 430 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: dissonance in it, when tones are playing over one another 431 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: that don't match up the right way, and it just 432 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: sounds like kind of white noise, some people hate that, right. 433 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: Like I dated a girl once who I remember putting 434 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: on a record in a car and she just said, 435 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: turn this off. It just sounds like insects. Uh, And 436 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: she was wrong, but she probably wasn't in music because 437 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: they have very little sensitivity to dissonance. Okay, So I 438 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: so one with this condition could very well be an 439 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: exclusive fan of say like Nurse with Wound or early 440 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: into New Boton, very like throw a xylophone down a 441 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 1: hallway sort of music. That's what I'm kind of wondering 442 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: is if like these experimental noise fans that are just 443 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: super into it and that's all they listened to. I 444 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 1: wonder if you could have a musia and not even 445 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: know it, because that's sort of your genre of choice. Um, 446 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: it doesn't appear, unfortunately, to be something that can be 447 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: quote unquote fixed either. Peretza's team has tried teaching kids 448 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: with the musica to like music. Actually, they basically they 449 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: gave them MP three players and they said listen to 450 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: this for thirty minutes a day. Not only did the 451 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: kids fail to improve on their tests, but they how 452 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: poorly they scored on the test correlated to how much 453 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 1: they reported listening to the music. UM. So the next 454 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: steps to to see if there's any kind of way 455 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: to reverse this. Seemed to be some kind of remediation 456 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 1: training programs that might improve hitch perception and memory. At 457 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: the very least, this will us understand the neurological basis 458 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: for this so that we can use it to diagnose 459 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:09,359 Speaker 1: other learning disorders too. So, what what's going on in 460 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,879 Speaker 1: the brain here? Right? Like, let's zoom in take a 461 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: look at the brain and figure out what exactly the 462 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: deal is. Well, there's a study by a team in 463 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: France and they used MTG scanners to figure this out. 464 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: A music people's brains stem from delayed or impaired functioning 465 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: in their frontal and auditory cortex. They also had physical 466 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: abnormalities in those areas of the brain with more gray 467 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: matter and less white matter than usual. Now, this is 468 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 1: something that's come up on the show a couple of 469 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: times when we're talking about everything from brain disorders to 470 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: drug usage. Right, like that white gray matter balance seems 471 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: to be pretty important. Again, people with music, they don't 472 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: enjoy music, but they're capable of enjoying all the other 473 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: pleasures the rest of us are. Right, It's not like 474 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 1: they're dead inside, right, it's just this one area, and 475 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: arguably an area that that certainly has nothing to do 476 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: with their survival or ability to to move and enjoy 477 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: life and and and partake of our culture. They're just 478 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,239 Speaker 1: not into the musical aspect of it. Yeah, I mean 479 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 1: they like food, they like money, they like sex. This 480 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 1: has all been tracked in Uh. There was a March 481 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: six article in the Journal of Current Biology. They looked 482 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 1: at this UM. So, Okay, we know it's innate or 483 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: it's acquired. We know it prevents people from processing music 484 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: the way they do. There's also another way to look 485 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 1: at this, another terminology called specific musical and hedonia. UH. 486 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: And this is what another studies authors called the inability 487 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: to explain experience pleasure from music in general. So if 488 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 1: a musia is the like disease, the extreme version where 489 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 1: you can't appreciate music at all, is this specific musical 490 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: and hedonia. And in their study, they divided thirty people 491 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: into three even groups and they were asked to do 492 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: what they called a music task where they listened to 493 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: class sical pieces of music and then they rated them. 494 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: Then they were asked to do a monetary incentive delay task. 495 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:11,959 Speaker 1: Basically this is gambling um and usually both would induce 496 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: an emotional reaction in the brain. The researchers analyze the 497 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: heart rate of their subjects and how much they perspired. Now, 498 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: some were quote emotionally oblivious to music that they could 499 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: tell what they were supposed to be feeling. So they 500 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: heard the stuff they knew they were supposed to be 501 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: having some kind of feeling, but their brain wasn't registering it. 502 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: Their brain registered okay, there's some reward system in place. 503 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: When I'm when they were playing around with the money 504 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: and gambling, that was lighting up, but not when they're 505 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 1: listening to music. So I'm wondering, this is just me 506 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: here and maybe I'm way off, But do you think 507 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: a music can also affect a person's timing and tapping 508 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: in terms of like fine motor control, because I'm thinking, like, 509 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,719 Speaker 1: if you can't tap out a beat along to a song, 510 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: would that affect your fine motor control in terms of 511 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: like trying to find I don't know. I'm thinking about 512 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: like platform video games where you're trying to like jump 513 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: from one thing to another at just the exact right time, 514 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: sort of like it was like the old school platformers 515 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 1: where they were just insanely difficult and you essentially had 516 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: to know like the exact beats to hit the exact key. 517 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: There's a name to that, right, And I'm wondering if 518 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: that affects them as well, or like for Simon game 519 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: comes to mind. Oh yeah, that would be a perfect example. 520 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, like they'd just be unable to do Simon. 521 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: I'm curious about that. Again, it comes down to like 522 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: a small loss like Simon wouldn't be a big deal. 523 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: But I would imagine if the fine motor control extended 524 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: into other aspects of your life that might be difficult. 525 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: I mean, certainly there was a time when like the 526 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: predominant game video game was those insane platformers, and if 527 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: you were not able to partake of those. I mean 528 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: you felt like you were missing out a little bit, 529 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: like I was just always kind of horrible at them. 530 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: And I remember feeling a little left out like I 531 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:03,960 Speaker 1: I had never beat like I don't think I backed 532 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: any of those old Nintendo games, and and I did 533 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: feel like this or something something wrong with me that 534 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: I haven't beat Super Mario Brothers too. I can sort 535 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 1: of remember that yet, because especially like our generation, the 536 00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: way we played like we all would just huddle around 537 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: the TV and the console right for hours at a time. 538 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: I remember playing like Mega Man for like ten hours 539 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: straight into the middle of the night with my buddies, 540 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: and we would like switch off right. But yeah, you 541 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: would sort of get laughed at if you weren't as like, 542 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: oh you can't make that one little jump? Come on, 543 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 1: you know. Thank god they got easier. Okay, So Robert 544 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about agnosia and how 545 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: it's related to a musea. Well, Agnosia in Greek means 546 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: not knowing and um and if from a broad standpoint, 547 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: agnoja refers to a number of different neural disorders that 548 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: and basically in which the subject experience is an inability 549 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: to inability to process different sensory information. Now what sort 550 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: of information? This varies a lot. Some experience and inability 551 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: to recognize and identify objects or persons or aspects of 552 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: objects or persons. Uh. The sense itself is not defective, however, 553 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: it's just how you're processing it. So it's not that 554 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: you can't hear, it's not that you can't see, it's 555 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: just there's no memory loss. And it might be limited 556 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: to a single sense, it might be more than one. 557 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: So what I immediately thought of here was all of 558 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: our sacks famous study of the men who mistook his 559 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: wife for a hat, which was about a guy who 560 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: had a brain disorder and literally like couldn't perceive the 561 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 1: difference between his wife when he saw her in his hat. Uh. 562 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: And all of your Sacks was famous for doing all 563 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: kinds of studies like this. But this, that seems like 564 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: maybe a more extreme version of agnosiat Well, there are 565 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: a number of different versions of it that have been 566 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: either officially or unofficially identified, So just a few. Here. 567 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: There's finger agnosia. This is an inability to recognize the 568 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: fingers of the hand. There's a more famous one, and 569 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: certainly Oliver Sacks don't study this one a good bet. 570 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: And this is a prosopagnosa. This is face blindness. So 571 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: you look at a face. It's not that you can't 572 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: see it's not even that you can't see a face. 573 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: It's not like on that that wonderful episode of Hannibal 574 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: where it's like a blank thing. Right, It's it's not 575 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: that as wonderful as that was visually in that show. 576 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: It's not really what facial face blindness is like. But 577 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: still you you can't you look in at the face, 578 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: you're seeing the face, but you can't really identify what's 579 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: going on. You can't like put the markers together to 580 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: identify it as being different from one face or another. Right, 581 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: There's also a phone agnosia, which is voice blindness. There's 582 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: time agnosia, which is an inability to interpret the passaging 583 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: of time, and there's also semantic agnosia. And this is 584 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 1: object blindness. And without being fresh on the details of 585 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: the hat situation, that seems like that that would be 586 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: the related clas probably yeah, And I have to say um, 587 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:04,959 Speaker 1: and I have to bring this up in a big 588 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: geeki about it since I'm currently reading the latest book 589 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: in our Scott Baker's Prince of Nothing. You have told 590 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: me about this numerous times, and so has a friend 591 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: of the show, Ec Steiner. Yeah. Yeah, I look forward 592 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: to chatting about this latest book with Steiner because it's uh, 593 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: the title is a Great Ordeal. But throughout the entire 594 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: series there's this tragic, undying elder race known as the 595 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: non Men. Okay, so they're like humans, but they're very 596 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: alien in many respects. They've been around forever, they've they've 597 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: had all these traumatic experiences, and there are a few 598 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: different differences that, like, very notable differences between them and humans, Like, 599 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: for instance, they're you know, they're ghastly and pale, kind 600 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 1: of google ish. They their teeth are all fused together. 601 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: But the one that I've always found really fascinating was 602 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: the revelation that they can't see paintings. Interesting, they deal 603 00:32:54,480 --> 00:33:00,320 Speaker 1: almost exclusively with three dimensional representations. That would that would 604 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 1: definitely work for Steiner since he's working. For those of 605 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: you who don't know who we're talking about. This is 606 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: a friend of ours who has actually done work for 607 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: the show before, especially for our video series. Um. He's 608 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: worked with me on comic books before in two dimensional formats. 609 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: But he actually sculpted like these huge set pieces that 610 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: we used for the Monster Science series. Here. He did 611 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: this wonderful Cathulu piece that we have here in the office, 612 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: and uh, just a giant cyclops skull that you can 613 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: see in the background and a couple of those. So 614 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,719 Speaker 1: he's worked with us on the show before. Yeah, and 615 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 1: so maybe he's he himself is one of the non 616 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: men um He might be. But I've seen people interpret 617 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: this like painting blindness, if you will, and maybe it 618 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: maybe it's something to do with oh well they can't 619 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 1: see colors and color blindness. But I can't help but 620 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: wonder if this is, uh, if this would be some 621 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: sort of like painting agnosia. And certainly our baker worked 622 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: so many neuroscientific and philosophical ideas and it was work. 623 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: I would not be surprised at all of that was 624 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 1: a partial inspiration for it. Okay, Yeah, I like that. 625 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: I like that, but all displating it outward. Yeah, but 626 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: all of these conditions, the real ones that we've discussed here, 627 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,760 Speaker 1: there are examples where again, you're the stimuli is entering 628 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: through your senses, but then something is messed up, the 629 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: wiring is crossed. There's there's something in many cases physically 630 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 1: damaged in the brain that is permitting the proper processing 631 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 1: of that stimula. Yeah, and where this enters the musical 632 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: realm is auditory agnosia. And they're essentially two different versions here. 633 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: There's classical auditory agnosia, which entails environmental sounds, so this 634 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: would be like you hear a bird or a car, 635 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: but you're unable to process exactly what that sound is. 636 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: And then there is interpretive or acceptive agnosia, and this 637 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: entails music and gets more into this this idea of 638 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: musical agnosia. I guess like here's a good point for 639 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: me to probably clarify too, because I have this. I 640 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: don't know about you, but um, I have a good 641 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: bit of tenitis um from all my years going to shows, 642 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: and even though I want ear plugs, Uh yeah, I 643 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: still hear that whistling at night and if everything's quiet, 644 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: I just hear a high pitched wine all the time. Um. 645 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,839 Speaker 1: And this isn't that though, right, Like that's that's an 646 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: actual like we actually have an episode of brain stuff 647 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: about that. Um, But that's part of your ear drum. 648 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: Being affected and then connecting to your brain. This is 649 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: totally different. This is just brain right now. In some 650 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 1: of the case and we'll look at a couple of 651 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: case studies here, uh in a minute. In some of 652 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: those you do see like actual deafness occurring as well. 653 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: But but yeah, for the most part, we're talking about 654 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 1: the about not a physical hearing loss. So examples of 655 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,800 Speaker 1: this go back at least as far as nineteen o five. 656 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:46,480 Speaker 1: I was looking at some articles about this, and the 657 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: reference a physician only referred to is uh Bond Vincini 658 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: and another one by the name of lamby L. A. M. Y. 659 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 1: And both of those uh encountered individuals who who had 660 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: UH difficulty with music so they could In the first one, 661 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen o five case, the patient could still process 662 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: musical information, but could no longer recognize well known tunes. 663 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: Um he could pick out a wrong note in a 664 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 1: famous tune, but he couldn't name that tune. And in 665 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen o seven case from lamby L. A. M. 666 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 1: Y described a patient who could transcribe his national anthem 667 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: but didn't know what it was. That's interesting, huh, And 668 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm assuming that had given their names, they probably weren't 669 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: transcribing the American national anthem, right. I think these were both, 670 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: uh at least said the first one was Italian. I'm 671 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 1: not certain about Lamby. Again, I look to try and 672 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 1: find some more information about these individuals from motor Head 673 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: did some certainly may be lots of time alright. So 674 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: the thing to keep in mind is there's a lot 675 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: of variety. UM. Here's an example to that. In eleven 676 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: case that was reported by zang Kaga and Hai. She 677 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: of a twenty seven year old woman with long term 678 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: severe hydrocephalius. This is abnormal accumulation of cerebro spinal fluid 679 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 1: in the brain, and this was due to congenital spina bifida. 680 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,240 Speaker 1: She gradually lost her hearing, but she experienced quote severe 681 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:26,200 Speaker 1: difficulty in distinguishing verbal, environmental and musical instruments sounds. As 682 00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: her hearing left her. She continued to enjoy music, however, 683 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: and could she could because she could sense the rhythms 684 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: by simply turning up the music allowed enough to feel 685 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: the vibrations, and this allowed her to actually summon the 686 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: memories of emotional associations that she had made with the 687 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,279 Speaker 1: music prior to her hearing loss. Okay, that's nice. Yeah, 688 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: I think it's kind of beautiful. I mean it gets 689 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: into this idea that we discussed earlier that the brain 690 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,919 Speaker 1: is processing music in a few different ways, and if 691 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: one of those bridges happens to break down, it doesn't mean, 692 00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: you know, the information can't get across, and the vibration 693 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: alone are enough to sort of trigger those emotional associations. 694 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: Is interesting. Yeah, And you can also of course get 695 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 1: into I don't think they got into it as much 696 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: in the paper, but you know, you have you have 697 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: instances where you can you can use hearing a devices 698 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:18,800 Speaker 1: that that that depend upon like vibrations in the skull 699 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,120 Speaker 1: as opposed to uh, you know straight up you know, 700 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: your drumalizations. Yeah. Now, compare all of this to an 701 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: earlier case. This was present in nine six in the 702 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience, that of a and this was 703 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 1: I think the case itself was first studied in the seventies, 704 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: but it was a forty year old nurse referred to 705 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,279 Speaker 1: as c N who, following a series of surgeries at 706 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,600 Speaker 1: age thirty five to repair cerebral aneurysms in each of 707 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: her temporal lobes, complained that she was no longer able 708 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: to pick out the simplest overlearned tune, you know, things, 709 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: the tunes you should have known just by heart. So 710 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: she no longer recognized tunes from her own record collection 711 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,760 Speaker 1: unless they had audible lyrics, which is which is interesting. 712 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: You can only identify them of the lyrics kicked in. 713 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 1: So this is making me think of people. I listened 714 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 1: to a lot of music that has unrecognizable lyrics, and 715 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: I'm okay with that, but I know a lot of 716 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: people who are like, how could you listen to that? 717 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,480 Speaker 1: You don't know what they're saying. I wonder if that's connected. 718 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, because maybe it's just an aesthetic preference. 719 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,439 Speaker 1: But I often think of in cases like that where 720 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: you can't quite understand what the the the vocalist is saying. 721 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: It's like Tom York comes to mind. Certainly, some of 722 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,800 Speaker 1: the music of a tool even or or Um Sugares 723 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 1: another act that comes to mind, where if I'm not 724 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: even understanding exactly what's saying, or I'm only picking up 725 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: on certain words, like the voice itself as a musical instrument. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 726 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,719 Speaker 1: I was just mentioning this the other day to a 727 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: friend of mine about Radiohead, that that's how I think 728 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,799 Speaker 1: of Tom York is less as a lyricist and more 729 00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,600 Speaker 1: as like a vocal musical contributor, sort of like how 730 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: Mike Patton does stuff with his voice and some of 731 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,279 Speaker 1: his side projects like um like Phantom Moss, where he's 732 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: not even really saying things, but he's just like using 733 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,440 Speaker 1: his voice as an instrument. Yeah, or like certainly we 734 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: can all listen to music in different languages. We can 735 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: listen to say, Mongolian throat singing and still experience enjoy it. Yeah. 736 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 1: So the the the individual in question here, she had 737 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: no problem understanding or communicating verbally, but music simply didn't 738 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: register like it used to. Musical patterns found no purchase 739 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,160 Speaker 1: in her mind. And this made her a near perfect 740 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: case of music agnosia. While and it sounds like there's 741 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,600 Speaker 1: an overlap there with a musa. So I wonder if, 742 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,600 Speaker 1: like um, the neurobiologists that are really looking into this deeply, 743 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: if there's just a terminology overlap here, or if there's 744 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: some symptoms of agnosia and some symptoms of as a 745 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: musea that separate them out as being totally different. I 746 00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 1: think that there is definite overlap here, because I have 747 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: seen and some of the papers we were looking at 748 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: they even you said you even you used them interchangeably 749 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: or said, this is also known as a musea. Though, 750 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: and though there are plenty of cases, especially in the 751 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 1: stuff we covered earlier, where a musa is not describing 752 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 1: agnosia and vice versa. So it sounds like that we 753 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,160 Speaker 1: need to do a lot more research on this and 754 00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: sort of better identify these categories. Yeah, I believe, I 755 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,319 Speaker 1: believe the experts in these areas are still trying to 756 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: get firm ideas of what's going on, because certainly agnosia 757 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: is a is a rarity compared to the more simpler 758 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,080 Speaker 1: versions of the music, right, Yeah, you can have a 759 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: musea and okay, so maybe this is the difference. Amusia 760 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: is the four percent of the population who are just 761 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: toned deaf, whereas agnosia or the term that I was 762 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: using earlier, me scroll back into the notes to find 763 00:41:53,760 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: it specific musical and hedonia those sound like the the 764 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: extreme version of it where you just don't process music 765 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 1: at all, right, And I think that's I think that's 766 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,480 Speaker 1: where we see the overlap. Yeah, and those conditions where 767 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: we're talking, especially when we're talking about brain injuries um, 768 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: physical trauma to the brain, physical changes to the brain, 769 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 1: the result in these symptoms. Now, in the treatment of 770 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: agnosia um, the analogy I made earlier about the two bridges, 771 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: that's ultimately where we see the main treatment or coping mechanisms, 772 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: and that is that if one bridge is out, there 773 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 1: are other bridges. There are other ways that we consume 774 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,920 Speaker 1: music that we that we take music in, and so 775 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: we we see in various cases where it basically information 776 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,560 Speaker 1: is just presented in other modalities with that connect to 777 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: the patients. So it's just a different way of connecting 778 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: with the music. It's interesting that you use the term 779 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: bridges because from what I can tell, the causes that 780 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: lead to and these are the physical causes that lead 781 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:04,720 Speaker 1: to agnosia um usually are around the occipito temporal border 782 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: in the brain of the ventral stream right connecting parts 783 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: of the brain together, the bridges between that that gets damaged, 784 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: and this could be lesions on the parietal or temporal lobes. 785 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 1: It can be produced from head injury or a stroke, 786 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 1: or infection or carbon monoxide poisonings, all kinds of things, right, 787 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,320 Speaker 1: UM but these lead to all the kinds of agnolgia, 788 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: and not just the auditory ones we're talking about, also 789 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: visual and tactile that you know, we're focusing on auditory today, 790 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 1: but that bridge, if that's severed, that's where that sense 791 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: kind of goes Hey whire Alright, So this is what 792 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, and this is what I'd like to see 793 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: more research of, you know, leading us out for the future. 794 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: What effects do a musia or agnosia have on other 795 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 1: behaviors like we've we've seen Okay, yes, these people understand 796 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 1: uh language still right, and they're they're capable of being 797 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,880 Speaker 1: functional in society and working and being intelligent and educated. 798 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,560 Speaker 1: But what kind of personalities develop from a person who 799 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,640 Speaker 1: just doesn't have music in their life. It's a good 800 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,960 Speaker 1: question I'd love to hear from from any listeners on this. Certainly, 801 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,400 Speaker 1: the the data we were looking at in the papers 802 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: we were reading, they seem if anything, it seems like 803 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,080 Speaker 1: most of the time the researchers are surprised at how 804 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,360 Speaker 1: how well the individual does you know? So it's it 805 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: I don't see a lot. It's maybe in the more 806 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: severe cases where it's affecting you know, greater sound agnosia 807 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: in general, or or other types of of a stimulus 808 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,880 Speaker 1: coming into the brain. But for the most part, it 809 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,439 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to handicap them significantly. I mean, they're still 810 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,640 Speaker 1: able in many cases to enjoy music. The thing the 811 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: one area that is that is specifically affected. Yeah, I'm 812 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: also wondering too, and please listeners chime in on this 813 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: one as well. With the rise and popularity of podcasts, 814 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: I wonder that is an outlet for a music acts 815 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: like there, Well, I don't like music, but these podcasts 816 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: are great, So I'll just load up a bunch of 817 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,000 Speaker 1: these and listen to these all the time. I've certainly 818 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: met people like that, the people who don't want to 819 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,560 Speaker 1: drive with music on, and then inevitably that they want 820 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,960 Speaker 1: to listen to something, right, and they'll they'll go for 821 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,640 Speaker 1: a podcast, We'll go for a radio show, or like 822 00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: a book. Yeah, yeah, interesting, okay, huh. Well, I like 823 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: to balance back and forth between the two. Sometimes I'm 824 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:29,400 Speaker 1: in the mood for music, sometimes in the mood for 825 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: a podcast or a book. But that's an interesting, interesting 826 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: difference in experiences. Well, it seems like there's a lot 827 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,640 Speaker 1: of information that we can learn from you the listeners 828 00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: out here about this. I mean, we're scratching the surface 829 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 1: of this pretty much brand new discipline of research. So 830 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,120 Speaker 1: let us know what you think about it. I want 831 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: to hear your your experiences. Maybe you've met people who 832 00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 1: don't like music at all. Maybe you're one of those people, 833 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,880 Speaker 1: and maybe that's why you listen to the show. Um, 834 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: so let us know. Uh. You can contact us in 835 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,399 Speaker 1: all the usual ways. We are on social media all 836 00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:08,560 Speaker 1: over the place, Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and Instagram. And then 837 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,600 Speaker 1: there's also our landing page, Stuff to Blow your Mind 838 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,399 Speaker 1: dot com. That's where you're gonna find all the podcasts, 839 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: all the videos we've made, and all of the articles, 840 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,160 Speaker 1: none of which are musical based. If you have a musea, 841 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,560 Speaker 1: you can consume them and be just fine. That's right. 842 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:24,759 Speaker 1: And hey, if you want to get in touch with 843 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 1: us directly, as always, email us at blow the Mind 844 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: at how stuff Works dot com. Well more on this 845 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: and basands of other topics. Is that how stuff works 846 00:46:41,600 --> 00:47:02,320 Speaker 1: dot com. I pol have a fa back by a 847 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: part