1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,560
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,799
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes, and.

7
00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,520
Speaker 2: I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring new

8
00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,079
Speaker 2: insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,760
Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

13
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

14
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:04,479
Speaker 1: I'm great? How about you?

15
00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,640
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm doing fantastic. Oh.

16
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,280
Speaker 1: So is this sports season? Do you get excited about

17
00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:13,520
Speaker 1: sports season right now?

18
00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,120
Speaker 2: Well? That's that's exactly why, you know. I am perky,

19
00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,720
Speaker 2: as you put it. Now. I was able to attend

20
00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,520
Speaker 2: a pro football game for the very first time in

21
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,480
Speaker 2: my life. And I'm a lifelong Minnesota Viking fan. So

22
00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 2: I went up to Minneapolis and you know, went into

23
00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 2: their stadium and watched a game, and it was such

24
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,399
Speaker 2: an amazing experience. You know, they unfortunately lost, but you

25
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,840
Speaker 2: know what, just the experience was was well worth it.

26
00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:45,720
Speaker 2: I'm going to do it again.

27
00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 1: Well, so I'm confused. Not an Oakland Raiders, that's right, right,

28
00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,400
Speaker 1: Oakland Raiders fan, not a forty nine Ers. Are you

29
00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,560
Speaker 1: laughing because I got that wrong?

30
00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:57,720
Speaker 2: No? Well, no, well Oakland. You know, the Raiders have

31
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,320
Speaker 2: been in several different cities over the course of my life.

32
00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,240
Speaker 2: But I know what you're alluding to is that, you know,

33
00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,480
Speaker 2: I did most of my adult life in the Bay Area, California,

34
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,600
Speaker 2: and actually, you know, as I was growing up there

35
00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,799
Speaker 2: and starting my career, the forty nine Ers were the

36
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 2: most dominant team in the NFL. They were constantly winning

37
00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,440
Speaker 2: Super Bowls. You know, Joe Montana to Steve Young quarterback situation.

38
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,760
Speaker 2: But the Minnesota Viking connection goes back. You know, my

39
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,919
Speaker 2: parents were born and raised in Saint Paul, oh and

40
00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 2: my dad was in the military. So as a boy

41
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,760
Speaker 2: growing up, I was living all over the nation, and

42
00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,440
Speaker 2: I couldn't be changing my sports team allegiance just because

43
00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 2: now I moved to a new location. So I always

44
00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 2: just kind of kept that mindset that I'd always be

45
00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,440
Speaker 2: a fan of the Vikings. And there's a nostalgic aspect.

46
00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 2: You know. Back when I was growing up, we rarely

47
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,080
Speaker 2: got to see the Vikings play on TV unless it

48
00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 2: was a nationally broadcast game. I'd wait for halftime just

49
00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 2: to see this, the little clips of highlights of what

50
00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:03,720
Speaker 2: was going on in the game. But my grandma, who

51
00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,400
Speaker 2: lived in Saint Paul, she would clip out the local

52
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 2: newspaper articles the following morning and snail mailed those to

53
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,280
Speaker 2: wherever we were living, you know, across the nation, so

54
00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,720
Speaker 2: we could read in great detail how the Vikes did.

55
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 2: And if they did great, it was always a good

56
00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,800
Speaker 2: article to read. If they didn't do so good, and

57
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,959
Speaker 2: then it was kind of a bad article to read.

58
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:25,679
Speaker 2: But just that connection, you know, it's just something that

59
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 2: I've maintained my entire life. You can see I've got

60
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 2: the you know, the Minnesota Viking head ao growing on

61
00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:33,880
Speaker 2: the wall behind me, and oh that's it.

62
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, I've been wondering about that for the past

63
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 1: year or so. Now now I know I should have

64
00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 1: asked sooner. Well, I think that's very sweet, and I

65
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,360
Speaker 1: understand the nostalgic part of it. My dad was a

66
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,320
Speaker 1: huge Dallas Cowboys fan, huge and I remember when my

67
00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,400
Speaker 1: folks were married. One of the nicest memories I had

68
00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,080
Speaker 1: was him laying on the couch kind of halfway falling

69
00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,520
Speaker 1: asleep because the cowboys weren't doing very well and my

70
00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:02,559
Speaker 1: mom had made chili and it would be cold outside.

71
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 1: And you know, my parents got divorced when I was

72
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:06,960
Speaker 1: really young. But there are certain key memories that are

73
00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:11,520
Speaker 1: nice because I adore my parents, and I think that

74
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,600
Speaker 1: was one of the nice ones. I don't really give

75
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 1: a fig about football. I think it's fun to watch,

76
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,040
Speaker 1: but it's mostly because of my dad, because it reminds

77
00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:20,760
Speaker 1: me of my father. So I get that. I get that,

78
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,200
Speaker 1: and I do hope you make it back there. I

79
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,280
Speaker 1: think that's wonderful. That'll be another one. We'll talk to

80
00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,080
Speaker 1: Karen and Georgia and just say we must do something

81
00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,320
Speaker 1: in Minneapolis, and we'll just, you know, we'll take a

82
00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,960
Speaker 1: little field trip. It'll be okay, in the Buried Bones.

83
00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,080
Speaker 2: Van as August. It's not in the dead of winter.

84
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,680
Speaker 1: I always managed to visit places in the Northeast right

85
00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,360
Speaker 1: in the middle of winter, and people are always going,

86
00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,960
Speaker 1: why do you come during this time? Because I love winter,

87
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,520
Speaker 1: So okay, we'll go in the fall. We'll do it.

88
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,040
Speaker 2: How about that? That sounds good? And are you familiar with

89
00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,920
Speaker 2: a hail mary pass involving no, what is that? You

90
00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,799
Speaker 2: don't know? This big controversial thing And for Vikings fans

91
00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:02,359
Speaker 2: kind of think it was nineteen seventy five. End of

92
00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,159
Speaker 2: the game, Vikings were winning, Roger Staubach drops back and

93
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,839
Speaker 2: chucks up this hail mary pass and the Vikings cornerback

94
00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 2: was in great coverage and Drew Pearson ends up catching

95
00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,360
Speaker 2: the ball and the Cowboys winning. It causes him, I think,

96
00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,159
Speaker 2: to advance to the super Bowl or at least advance

97
00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,520
Speaker 2: in playoffs. So it's a big deal. Yeah, But as

98
00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,480
Speaker 2: a Viking fan, we're like the Cowboys receiver pushed off.

99
00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,560
Speaker 2: You know, there should have been a penalty call.

100
00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,040
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm gonna get comments about that, and

101
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:31,880
Speaker 1: I'm not going to understand any of them, so I'm

102
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:33,320
Speaker 1: just going to pass them over to you.

103
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:35,760
Speaker 2: The Cowboy fans are going to light me up.

104
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:41,880
Speaker 1: Well then moving on, Well, we're going from Minneapolis and

105
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:47,159
Speaker 1: Texas to Massachusetts to Salem, Massachusetts. Have you been to

106
00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,320
Speaker 1: Salem before? No?

107
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:52,360
Speaker 2: I still haven't made it up, really haven't spent much time.

108
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,880
Speaker 2: I did do a Vermont event for my book tour. Okay,

109
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,040
Speaker 2: that's the first and only time I've been up in

110
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:02,080
Speaker 2: that you know, Northeast Quarter if you will. And Salem,

111
00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,400
Speaker 2: Massachusetts is that?

112
00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:04,559
Speaker 1: Yes?

113
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 2: Where like the whole witch Yeah, it's okay, So it's

114
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:10,640
Speaker 2: not the Salem that's up in the.

115
00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 1: Oregon No, okay, different Salem.

116
00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:15,320
Speaker 2: Okay, got it?

117
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,080
Speaker 1: Different, kind of spooky. Yes, Salem as in the Witch Trials.

118
00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,560
Speaker 1: And this story, if you can believe it, takes place

119
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,160
Speaker 1: before the Witch Trials. Right. No, wait, that's wrong, after

120
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: the Witch Trials, but not long after that. One hundred

121
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:30,920
Speaker 1: years after the Witch Trials.

122
00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,760
Speaker 2: Well, in your in your world, one hundred years is kind.

123
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,480
Speaker 1: Of a short, h I mean, it really is. Okay, Well,

124
00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,560
Speaker 1: let's get to Salem and let's set the scene. Okay,

125
00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:47,400
Speaker 1: this is a story about a very unlikable victim. We

126
00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:50,839
Speaker 1: have talked about some victims before who have been not

127
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,279
Speaker 1: so great, and it's usually the men who are the gamblers,

128
00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,920
Speaker 1: who are you know, the guys who are doing really

129
00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 1: shady things, and then they get killed and we still

130
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,719
Speaker 1: are obligated, as the police were in whatever time period

131
00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,320
Speaker 1: it is, to solve the case. Because a victim is

132
00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 1: a victim.

133
00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:11,080
Speaker 2: Well, you know, and that's just part of public safety, right, Yeah.

134
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:16,760
Speaker 2: And so many men who've become homicide victims in cases

135
00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 2: that I've gone out on, you know, they've made a

136
00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,840
Speaker 2: life decision that cause them to in essence, become a

137
00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 2: victim of a crime. And we still have to work

138
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:28,680
Speaker 2: those cases just as hard as if there was a

139
00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,960
Speaker 2: true innocent victim or a more likable victim. I know,

140
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,040
Speaker 2: for me, I really gravitate towards the cases where you

141
00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,800
Speaker 2: have that true innocent victim and regardless of what their

142
00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,880
Speaker 2: personality was like, you know, if they were living their

143
00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:48,880
Speaker 2: life and fell victim, I become empathetic to their situation.

144
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,840
Speaker 1: I agree, this is one of those cases. It's a

145
00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:54,840
Speaker 1: sign of the times when we talk about who the

146
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,000
Speaker 1: victim is, and I'm not going to sugarcoat who this

147
00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,520
Speaker 1: guy was. And some people have heard this story, but

148
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 1: I don't think you will have heard it as in depth.

149
00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 1: This is a story that inspired two very famous writers.

150
00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,640
Speaker 1: One was Edgar Allan Poe and one was Nathaniel Hawthorne,

151
00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,840
Speaker 1: the Scarlet Letter Nathaniel Hawthorne, who was living in Salem.

152
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,920
Speaker 1: And you know, these are two writers who would get

153
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,280
Speaker 1: inspiration from true crime stories that were happening in the area,

154
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 1: and actually a book that I've just finished writing. The

155
00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,680
Speaker 1: case from that book also inspired Nathaniel Hawthorne. So that's

156
00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 1: what gravitated me towards this particular case. But the guy

157
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,079
Speaker 1: is a bastard at the center of this, so let's

158
00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 1: just start there. I know, well, again a side of

159
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,560
Speaker 1: the times. You know that this is kind of the

160
00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,080
Speaker 1: way I'm addressing him because I don't think we've had

161
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,720
Speaker 1: this situation before. He's eighty two and he was a

162
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,600
Speaker 1: retired captain. His name is Joseph White, and you know,

163
00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: had an incredible fortune and lived in a massive house

164
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,840
Speaker 1: in Salem at the age of eighty. But here's how

165
00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,200
Speaker 1: he made his money. He was both a shipmaster and

166
00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,960
Speaker 1: a quote unquote trader. So while he was a trader

167
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,480
Speaker 1: as in goods under the board, he was in the

168
00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:18,600
Speaker 1: slave trade also, and he once wrote that he had

169
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:23,400
Speaker 1: quote no reluctance in selling any part of the human race.

170
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:29,000
Speaker 1: So when we talk about unlikable victims or unsympathetic victims,

171
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 1: this is to me the lowest of the low. But

172
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,120
Speaker 1: we still have to work the case. We're fast forwarding

173
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,360
Speaker 1: now to eighteen thirty and he's retired. He is in

174
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,680
Speaker 1: his home. He has made all of this money by

175
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 1: selling people. And he is, of course, in this time period,

176
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,360
Speaker 1: a respected citizen of Salem. Again, we're talking about the

177
00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,440
Speaker 1: time period here, you know. On the flip side, though,

178
00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,560
Speaker 1: in the seventeen eighties, the states elected officials, we're trying

179
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 1: to pass legislation to outlaw slavery. So even though this

180
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 1: was not shocking to a lot of people, there was

181
00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,160
Speaker 1: some movement when he made this statement at the time.

182
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,960
Speaker 1: Still he was respected. Still he had this stately house,

183
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 1: and he was very, very wealthy. He was considered a

184
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,920
Speaker 1: shipping magnet. Now he had this big brick mansion in Salem,

185
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,840
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful homes in the city. No kids,

186
00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 1: He had a wife who died years ago, and he

187
00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,920
Speaker 1: only has a couple of people in the house with him.

188
00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,480
Speaker 1: He has Lydia Kimball, who is a domestic servant, and

189
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,720
Speaker 1: he has a property handyman named Benjamin White, and they're

190
00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,160
Speaker 1: both key. And I know that there are a lot

191
00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 1: of names in here, like a lot, especially as we

192
00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,960
Speaker 1: kind of move along with this story, and I'll try

193
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,640
Speaker 1: to help you keep up with them all but right

194
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,040
Speaker 1: now we just have two people who work for him.

195
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,040
Speaker 1: It sounds like Benjamin White might have been a distant

196
00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,960
Speaker 1: relative of Joseph White, but he was working for him

197
00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,719
Speaker 1: very clearly. He has a niece who he likes a

198
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 1: lot named Mary Beckford. She is in her mid to

199
00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,000
Speaker 1: late forties. She also lives there and she works as

200
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 1: his housekeeper, which just seems unusual to me. But again,

201
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:18,440
Speaker 1: you know, you have people who need a job, and

202
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,160
Speaker 1: he has a lot of money and he probably trusts them.

203
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,400
Speaker 1: So he has his niece working for him. Mary. She

204
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,160
Speaker 1: has to make things even more confusing a daughter who's

205
00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:32,920
Speaker 1: also named Mary, and she really is key in this.

206
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,320
Speaker 1: She used to live in the mansion. So this is

207
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,000
Speaker 1: his great niece. He adored her, He liked his niece.

208
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 1: He loved the great niece named Mary, and she used

209
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,160
Speaker 1: to live in this big, huge mansion and I have

210
00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,240
Speaker 1: a photo of it because it's still in existence. She

211
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,760
Speaker 1: was someone who was very close to Captain White, but

212
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:58,800
Speaker 1: then he pulled away from her because she Mary married

213
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 1: one of his employees, which of course we've seen over

214
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,240
Speaker 1: and over again. You have a parental figure who's also

215
00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,880
Speaker 1: supporting this family who feels like he is able to

216
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: dictate who somebody is going to be involved with. And

217
00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,200
Speaker 1: he has said to his great niece, if you're going

218
00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,560
Speaker 1: to marry this guy whose name is Joe Jenkin's nap,

219
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,400
Speaker 1: if you're going to marry Joe, you can get out.

220
00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,960
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that she did not take this very well.

221
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: I have to imagine that not only family conflicts, but

222
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,880
Speaker 1: violence and homicides have come out over history over parents

223
00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 1: trying to dictate who their children are going to marry

224
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 1: or be involved with.

225
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,720
Speaker 2: You know, when you think about Mary and Joe and

226
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:48,960
Speaker 2: their emotional connection, and now this older parental figure in

227
00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:55,480
Speaker 2: Mary's life is trying to dictate terms of which goes

228
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 2: against the emotional connection that Mary and Joe have. Often

229
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,280
Speaker 2: because of the strong emotions involved in that kind of relationship,

230
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 2: when you have something that is trying to pull those

231
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:12,360
Speaker 2: two people apart, now you get that extreme reaction on

232
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,440
Speaker 2: the other side, that anger. So now when I start

233
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,800
Speaker 2: hearing this dynamic, I'm looking at it from that basic

234
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,880
Speaker 2: fundamental human behavior and start considering, Okay, you haven't even

235
00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:27,480
Speaker 2: told me, you know what has happened, but there is

236
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,199
Speaker 2: a form of tension as a result of this anger

237
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:36,360
Speaker 2: that I imagine Mary in particular, Joe is likely experiencing, you know,

238
00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,160
Speaker 2: and does this cause maybe somebody to act out down

239
00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:40,760
Speaker 2: the road.

240
00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,680
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll see Captain White really really doesn't like Joe.

241
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:46,960
Speaker 1: He thinks he's a gold digger, and he thinks the

242
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,720
Speaker 1: only reason that he married Captain White's great niece Mary

243
00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 1: is to get closer to the fortune. She is in

244
00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,719
Speaker 1: the will. He says, you can't marry this guy. He

245
00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,560
Speaker 1: worked for me, he's beneath you. I don't try him.

246
00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 1: He's after our money. She said, I don't care. She

247
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,640
Speaker 1: marries him, and he writes her out of the will.

248
00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:10,400
Speaker 1: So Mary and Joe are on their own. And if

249
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,720
Speaker 1: Joe Nap is indeed a gold digger as Captain White thought,

250
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:18,560
Speaker 1: he is now realized that he has been strapped to

251
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:23,360
Speaker 1: a woman who was the heiress to a fortune because

252
00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 1: she was so loved by this old man. And now

253
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 1: he has no money and they're stuck on a farm

254
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,840
Speaker 1: about ten miles outside of Salem. So this is not

255
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 1: good news. I'm not sure yet who's dying, but this

256
00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 1: is already acrimony within the family and something that everyone

257
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,520
Speaker 1: I think can relate to. I have dated people my

258
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 1: parents did not like and every parent reacts differently, So

259
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 1: you're right, tension.

260
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:51,720
Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, you know, and especially if Joe doesn't have

261
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,720
Speaker 2: that emotional connection to Mary and was literally just using

262
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,080
Speaker 2: her to get to this pot of gold, and now

263
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 2: that pot of gold has been stripped away. This is

264
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,280
Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds, right, yeah, eighteen thirty, eighteen thirty,

265
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,360
Speaker 2: So you imagine now he can't just go run and

266
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:14,120
Speaker 2: get a divorce. I imagine he's pretty locked into this relationship.

267
00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: Very locked in. And oftentimes in the eighteen hundreds, you know,

268
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,080
Speaker 1: I've written about this before, it would actually take an

269
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,720
Speaker 1: act of the legislature to get a divorce, and most

270
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 1: of the time women were not granted divorces. It would

271
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 1: be the man who would have to go and file.

272
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,760
Speaker 1: So most of the time, particularly in the seventeen hundreds,

273
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:34,880
Speaker 1: but still in the eighteen hundreds, they would just love

274
00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,880
Speaker 1: separate lives. I hate you, you hate me. You know,

275
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,160
Speaker 1: you go live where you live, but we're still married.

276
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 1: And you know, if they took on another person, they

277
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,440
Speaker 1: would just sort of live as a common law spouse,

278
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,240
Speaker 1: but there would be no official divorce. It's certainly not

279
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 1: today where it's much easier. So all of this, we've

280
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,880
Speaker 1: talked about pregnancy outside of marriage in these time periods,

281
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,880
Speaker 1: we've talked about divorce. It was so hard to set

282
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,440
Speaker 1: yourself from somebody in this time period. And I think

283
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,240
Speaker 1: this is why we see some of these murders where

284
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,120
Speaker 1: you have people who simply feel trapped.

285
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 2: Right, trapped and in Mary and Joe's situation, probably not

286
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 2: having the financial assets that they were hoping that they

287
00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 2: would have.

288
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely and speaking of financial assets, I'm going to show

289
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,960
Speaker 1: you what the house looks like. So this is his mansion.

290
00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:27,200
Speaker 1: Do you see it right in the middle.

291
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,200
Speaker 2: I do see it.

292
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 1: Aside from the Lindbergh Baby mansion, this might be the

293
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,760
Speaker 1: biggest mansion that we've dealt with this what period. It

294
00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,520
Speaker 1: looks like a fortress, right.

295
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:40,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I'm surprised at the shape. I had

296
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 2: something else envisioned when you mentioned this mansion. But this

297
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,640
Speaker 2: what I'm looking at is like as you described. You know,

298
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,880
Speaker 2: this looks like almost a three story brick structure with

299
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,560
Speaker 2: the white entryway steps going up to the front door.

300
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,160
Speaker 2: I can see the chimneys indicating you've got multiple fireplaces.

301
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,800
Speaker 2: You've got multiple chim to, got multiple fireplaces, inside, and

302
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,960
Speaker 2: I can imagine that back in the eighteen thirties this

303
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 2: really stood out as a dominant structure in the area.

304
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:15,119
Speaker 1: Let's talk about logistics, multiple entryways. Right we're in the city.

305
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 1: There's a lot of ground level windows. I know they

306
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: look like they're up high, but they look accessible to me.

307
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,159
Speaker 2: What about you, Yeah, well, all of these windows, you know,

308
00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:29,200
Speaker 2: when you start evaluating buildings in terms of how can

309
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:35,679
Speaker 2: an offender break in? Doors are obvious windows. These burglars

310
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,399
Speaker 2: can be very adept from afar to evaluate whether or

311
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 2: not this would be a residence that they could easily access.

312
00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:46,960
Speaker 2: And with the windows on the first floor right now,

313
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,880
Speaker 2: there appears to be at least four across the front,

314
00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,360
Speaker 2: and then three on the one side that is visible

315
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,240
Speaker 2: on the right side there, you know, so there's seven windows.

316
00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 2: It's not only just a point of entry though, it's

317
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 2: also these are visual portals that burglars will just stand

318
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,159
Speaker 2: back and watch and they can determine over the course

319
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,400
Speaker 2: of whether it be in the middle of the day

320
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,480
Speaker 2: or in particular at night when you have lights inside

321
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,880
Speaker 2: and you can kind of see inside, but they can

322
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 2: start determining living patterns where the various occupants within the

323
00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: residents have a tendency to reside. They can also determine

324
00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 2: whether or not the residence is empty. You know, if

325
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:34,200
Speaker 2: they're just interested in property inside, they probably don't want

326
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 2: to confront somebody inside, and that's why they You know,

327
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,400
Speaker 2: residential burglars often strike during the day when people are

328
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:44,359
Speaker 2: gone at work, versus commercial burglars. You know, they often

329
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,480
Speaker 2: strike at night when the employees are not inside the building.

330
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 2: You know, they plan their crimes to avoid people. But

331
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 2: if you have somebody that is interested in committing violence

332
00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,919
Speaker 2: to attacking somebody inside, then of course they want to

333
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,320
Speaker 2: be able to get inside the residents silently and surprise

334
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:06,639
Speaker 2: the occupant, their intended victim.

335
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 1: Now that we're talking about this, we've talked about break

336
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,000
Speaker 1: ins quite a lot of stalkings. It's one of the

337
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,680
Speaker 1: first cases we dealt with Mary Louise Stammer, someone being

338
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: stalked through a window. If we're talking for our audience,

339
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 1: kind of practical things here. If we want to prevent

340
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: our own break in, somebody coming into our house, someone

341
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,640
Speaker 1: knowing our schedule, all of that, I know that there

342
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 1: are practical things we could do, right, I mean, you

343
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,920
Speaker 1: have a burglar alarm, maybe you have a dog, you

344
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,359
Speaker 1: keep an unpredictable schedule, well lit, Is there anything else

345
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,520
Speaker 1: you recommend people doing that might not make them so

346
00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 1: much of a target. Is it like you leave lights

347
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,640
Speaker 1: on at night if you're out of town. What are

348
00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 1: the things that you think of doing to throw someone off,

349
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,440
Speaker 1: to have them say, boy, I really don't think this

350
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:56,880
Speaker 1: is the house for me to break into.

351
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 2: Well, there's really a lot of things. In fact, on

352
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,199
Speaker 2: my other podcast, we actually did a whole episode discussing,

353
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 2: you know, how to prevent yourself from becoming a victim.

354
00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 2: The reality is, if somebody wants to get inside your residence,

355
00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 2: they can get inside the residence, but you can take

356
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,679
Speaker 2: certain precautions, and notably it is locking your doors, locking

357
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,359
Speaker 2: your windows, don't leave the windows open, have curtains on

358
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 2: all the windows so people can't see. In the idea

359
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 2: of utilizing you know, these electronic timers that can turn

360
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,800
Speaker 2: on lights off and on if just to make it

361
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,520
Speaker 2: look like somebody's there, Yes, that is that's going to

362
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:40,880
Speaker 2: be something that can help a dog. You know, many

363
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: of these burglars do not want to deal with a dog,

364
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 2: either from the noise the dog makes or from the

365
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 2: fear if it's a larger dog, that this dog may

366
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 2: attack them. There's just so many things randomizing your schedules hard.

367
00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,040
Speaker 2: You know. That's everybody's got a life pattern, and to

368
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 2: really go out of your way to try to disrupt it.

369
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,200
Speaker 2: I just don't think that that's really a practical aspect,

370
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 2: you know, but you just want to do something where

371
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,639
Speaker 2: the person who is looking at your residence or looking

372
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,920
Speaker 2: at you is going, this is going to be more

373
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: difficult than I want to deal with.

374
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 1: Well, you know what's interesting is I thought everybody around

375
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:22,920
Speaker 1: me has ring cams, and we finally broke down and

376
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 1: got a ring cam. I thought a ring cam would

377
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 1: solve things. And then one of the girl's friend's moms

378
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 1: called me a while back and said, you won't believe this,

379
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: but somebody stopped on the side of the road, came

380
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,120
Speaker 1: out and grabbed They had like a rod iron heavy bench,

381
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,560
Speaker 1: two person bench on their front porch, and the people

382
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,359
Speaker 1: figured out how to go around the ring camera. You know,

383
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 1: they just hit its blind spot grab this bench. You

384
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: can see the feet ye kind of flip into the

385
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:52,879
Speaker 1: ring camera, and it's just like, I can't believe that

386
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 1: they're that brazen to be able to snatch something like that,

387
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: put it a heavy thing in their car and just

388
00:21:58,520 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 1: took off.

389
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,320
Speaker 2: Well, you know, these are it's a constant cat and

390
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: mouse game, you know. And as video surveillance cameras, whether

391
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 2: it be a ring style camera or any type of

392
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,920
Speaker 2: video surveillance camera that you put up on your residence,

393
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 2: they're going to take measures to prevent that camera from

394
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 2: being able to identify them, you know. And especially you know,

395
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 2: when the pandemic hit and everybody's wearing masks, that was

396
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,040
Speaker 2: an easy way to just kind of you look normal

397
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,280
Speaker 2: walking down the street. Nobody's thinking, oh, he's up to

398
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 2: no good, you know. Ye, but we're seeing these offenders

399
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,800
Speaker 2: taking the time. You know. Oftentimes when you've got the

400
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 2: porch pirates or somebody who's trying to you know, go

401
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: in through the front door and there's a ring camera

402
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 2: or video surveillance camera, they've got the hoodies on, they

403
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: got the ski mask on. They are taking those steps

404
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,919
Speaker 2: and it's going to be something. There'll be other types

405
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 2: of home security products that may make it more difficult,

406
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 2: and then they will try to figure out a way

407
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: to get around that.

408
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 1: Boy. Well, this case, as you're going to find out

409
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 1: a second was a challenge in some ways, and very

410
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: lots of little twists and turn So let's go back

411
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: to Salem, Massachusetts. We are April sixth. We're in April sixth,

412
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty, and Captain White is in his mansion as usual.

413
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: He goes to bed around nine point forty, which is

414
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: a little later than his typical bedtime, much later than

415
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,120
Speaker 1: my typical bedtime, frankly. And at six o'clock the next morning,

416
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: the handyman Benjamin White wakes up and he wants to

417
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,239
Speaker 1: start his day. He has a to do list that

418
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: Captain White has given him, and he notices something strange,

419
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 1: and I have a photo which will probably make you

420
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,360
Speaker 1: happy to compare here. He goes down and on the

421
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: first floor of the house, a back window has been

422
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 1: left open. That was your rule number one, I think

423
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: when you just briefed us on how to state safe.

424
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,199
Speaker 1: Just beneath the window outside, there's a wooden plank propped

425
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: up against the side of the house. And I have

426
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 1: a shot of the house that particular wind so you'll

427
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: see the height. But there's a wooden plank propped up

428
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: against the side of the house. Windows open we don't

429
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: know anything about the victim just yet. So already this

430
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 1: feels a little Lindberg Baby for me with the rickety

431
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,200
Speaker 1: ladder outside of this massive house.

432
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, for sure. And this plank, the configuration of

433
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: the plank. Does a picture show this or is there

434
00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: a sketch that was taken back in the day and

435
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 2: how this plank was set up?

436
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: Well, the way that they were describing it is I'm

437
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: going to show you a picture of the actual window.

438
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: But you know, this is eighteen thirty, so they just

439
00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 1: know this was the window. Here's the window right here,

440
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,000
Speaker 1: you see it. It's the one on the left of

441
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 1: the door, and it's one of the side windows. There's

442
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: multiple entryways, i believe into this house, so this is

443
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: not the front. This is one of the side entries.

444
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 1: So tell me what you're seeing here. Three steps there

445
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 1: are four steps. I mean, this doesn't look particularly tall

446
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 1: to me.

447
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this this is a photo. It looks like

448
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: it's a door, either a back door side door into

449
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: the house. The door is elevated above the ground, so

450
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:07,480
Speaker 2: there's four what appeared to be concrete steps that lead

451
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: up to the door. The end of note is there's

452
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: panes you know, the tall, narrow panes of glass window

453
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 2: on either side of the door, and then the window

454
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 2: is to the left of the door, and the base

455
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: of this window appears to be I'm gonna just say,

456
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 2: those steps look like they're may be each ten inches tall,

457
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 2: So you know, the base of the door is maybe

458
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: three and a half feet to I'm not sure it's

459
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: quite four feet above the ground. I think it's it's

460
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: probably closer to three and a half feet, and the

461
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: base of the window appears to possibly be another foot

462
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 2: and a half above that. So you're looking at the

463
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 2: base of this window at about, I don't know, four

464
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 2: and a half feet tall. So somebody like myself, I'm

465
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 2: five ten, you know, I could easily see into this

466
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 2: window if the curtain are open, and would be able

467
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: to readily, you know, get up over the ledge of

468
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 2: that window and get inside the house if it's open.

469
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,560
Speaker 1: Well, what's interesting is that Benjamin White notes that the

470
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: window was left open. I'm a little surprised that he

471
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: noted that because maybe the captain is paranoid about people

472
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: breaking in. I'm not sure, especially in the spring in April,

473
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: if it would have been common practice for everybody and

474
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: then this area to have locked their windows tight. I

475
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: guess maybe the first floor windows and the servants were

476
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: on the top floor, because you notice when I showed

477
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: you the exterior shot of the home, there were two rows,

478
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 1: you know, the first floor and the second floor of

479
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: really nice, beautiful tall windows, and then the top floor

480
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: is the smaller windows, and that's where the domestic servants

481
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: would have been. So this plank is described as something

482
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: that goes from the ground to the windowsill. And immediately,

483
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, once this case unfolds, you'll see that investigators

484
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: said this is a plank that would have supper ordered

485
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 1: a grown man to be able to use to climb

486
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: kind of up to the window and open it. And

487
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 1: they thought that's the way that the entry was. Does

488
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 1: that make sense to you?

489
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 2: I don't see any other explanation. What I'm envisioning is

490
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 2: this plank is probably a fairly thick, like let's say,

491
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:20,719
Speaker 2: a two x twelve style piece of wood that's leaned

492
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: from the ground to the base of the window like

493
00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: a ramp.

494
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a ramp.

495
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 2: I could see where somebody might use the plank and

496
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: use it like a ramp to get up into the window.

497
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: But there's an easier way in terms of you look

498
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: at the stairs. You have the hand rail on the

499
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: right hand away from the window, but the stairs themselves

500
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: have no railing between those stairs and where the window's at.

501
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: So I would consider that the offender could have placed

502
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: that plank there but didn't walk up the entire length

503
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 2: of the plank. Likely just stepped on off the porch,

504
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: you know, and used one leg to be able to

505
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: be on the plank in order to get over to

506
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: access the window and get inside.

507
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: You're talking about some acrobatics there. I agree. There's a

508
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: bunch of different ways that could have gotten in, and frankly,

509
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: you know, a little ladder would have been easier. What

510
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm imagining is, if they plan to do this, a

511
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: domestic servant might not notice that somebody had left a

512
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: plank of wood leaning up against the wall. If this

513
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 1: was a situation where Captain White's house had been cased

514
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: by burglars beforehand, and a ladder would have been noticed,

515
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: But a piece of wood, maybe left from some building

516
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: materials might not have been noticed. And it's an easy

517
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: way to store something that could be used late at

518
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 1: night later on.

519
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 2: You know. For me, though, I'm having a problem with

520
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 2: this plank in that this window isn't so high that

521
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: I think the average mail would be able to have

522
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 2: the upper body strength to pull them up into this window.

523
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 2: Why use the plank? That's seems unnecessary. So right now,

524
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: I have no other opinions about that, but I just

525
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 2: want to point that out. Anytime I see something where

526
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: I go, why did the offender need to do that?

527
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: That gives me pause, and I have to, you know,

528
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: maybe circle back around to that as we get further

529
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: into this case.

530
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: Okay, I think you might want to. We'll talk about

531
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: the plank later if you want so. Benjamin White the

532
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: next morning, very early six am, is alarmed because the

533
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: windows unlocked and left open. He thinks there's a break in.

534
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: He said, you know, Captain White has a lot of money,

535
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: a lot of valuables, and they are stashed everywhere. There's

536
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: not one central safe for Captain White. He has squirreled

537
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: things around all over the mansion, which the domestic servants

538
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: would know, so would his family, so would quite a

539
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: few people most likely. But he has squirreled stuff away everywhere.

540
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: Benjamin wakes up Lydia Kimball, who's the other domestic servant,

541
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: and she is a alarmed also the niece, So not

542
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: his grand niece who married the guy who's questionable. This

543
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: is his niece. Her mother is out of the house.

544
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: She is spending the night with Mary, the great niece.

545
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 1: I hate it when they name themselves after. It drives

546
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: me crazy. Mary Mary Junior. I just I'm in the

547
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: middle of RD I get tenfold season. That's got a

548
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: Rebecca and or Rebecca junior too, and it drives me

549
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: crazy to keep riding seniors and juniors. But anyway, we'll

550
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: go with older Mary and younger Mary, so I don't

551
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: have to keep saying niece and great niece. So older

552
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: Mary is spending the night with her daughter. Younger Mary,

553
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: and the two domestic servants decide to do a sweep

554
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: of the house. They start with Captain White's bedroom, which

555
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: is a smart idea. He has gold to balloons, the

556
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 1: balloons in an iron box Spanish, I would imagine. I

557
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: don't know much about the balloons. Do you know anything

558
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: I know? I keep saying the balloons? Do you know

559
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: anything about them? Except they're golden worth a lot of

560
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: money in the eighteen hundred Yeah.

561
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: I can't say I know anything about him. I'm just

562
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 2: when you said that word, my immediate mind went the

563
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: Pirates of the Caribbean, and you know.

564
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. Well, he's got a lot of

565
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: money and it's everywhere. He has an iron box and

566
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 1: it's full of gold. And they go to his room.

567
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: They see that the door's wide open. I would say,

568
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: Captain White sounds like a very private man. This is

569
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 1: also alarming for them. They cautiously enter the room and

570
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: they see Captain White is on his bed. Now we

571
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,479
Speaker 1: get to talk about forensic stuff. He's lying on his side,

572
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: and his body is lying diagonally across his mattress, and

573
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: they could see he's not sleeping. This is not a

574
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: normal position for him. His posture seems unnatural to them.

575
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: But there, of course, and then the more obvious thing

576
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: is there are enormous blood stains all over the bedding.

577
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: He's obviously dead, and we can talk about the autopsy

578
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: in a little bit. But they are stunned that their

579
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: boss is dead and there's blood all over the place

580
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: and he's lying on his side.

581
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 2: This may be the only time these people have ever

582
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: seen crime scene in which there was homicidal violence and

583
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: you can imagine the shock, which could also alter their perception.

584
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: I have a case where a woman comes in to

585
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: see her husband and son laying on a floor and

586
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: she's thinking they're down trying to clean up some spilled

587
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: fruit punch because of all the blood, and that was

588
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: her initial perception. So oftentimes the details that these witnesses

589
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 2: have are skewed a little bit because of the trauma

590
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: of what they're looking at, as well as not having

591
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: the experience and expertise to truly interpret what they are seeing.

592
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: But right now, this sounds like a relatively straightforward crime

593
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: scene with an adult, elderly adult victim laying on his side,

594
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: dying across the bed. You haven't told me exactly anything

595
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: about the blood patterns except that you have large amounts

596
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: of blood that's present on the bed itself.

597
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: So we have two things we can talk about, and

598
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: you tell me the order. It sounds like you want

599
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: to talk about autopsy stuff, how did he die? All

600
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: of that, But we also have do they immediately see

601
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: a motive as in, was anything stolen? Which one do

602
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: you want to talk about? First? Look like you're in

603
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: a blood kind of mood, So.

604
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I part of my process is I

605
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: always try to start with the autopsy. I need to know,

606
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 2: you know, how the victim died, what injuries of victim had,

607
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: and then you know, interpret the crime scene from there.

608
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 2: So let's let's start with the autopsy.

609
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: The first thing that Benjamin and Lydia do when they

610
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: see that their boss is dead as they call a

611
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: man named Stephen White. He is a member of the

612
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 1: Massachusetts Legislature, so he's a very respected citizen. But he's

613
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: also Captain White's nephew. So there are a lot of

614
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: family members here, his closest relative, and we're going to

615
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 1: presume that he well, I know that he's in the

616
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: will also, so we'll talk about suspects in a little bit,

617
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of options here. Stephen White

618
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: is one of them. He thinks of Captain White as

619
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: his father. He's devastated when he shows up, but he starts,

620
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: of course, immediately inspecting this scene and he's trying to

621
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: kind of gather some evidence. There's no police officials on

622
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: the scene yet. There's a friend of his who is

623
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: also a business associate of Captain White named William Ward,

624
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: and he is bringing along a guy named Samuel Johnson,

625
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: who is a doctor. So now we have three people here,

626
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: and Samuel Johnson, the doctor, is going to kind of

627
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,320
Speaker 1: be the head of this coroner's jury once we get there.

628
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: So the doctor looks at Captain W. White's body and

629
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: here's what he notices, and then there's a lot of

630
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: detail about an autopsy. He says that his left temple

631
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: shows signs of a beating, likely with some sort of

632
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: a blunt object, like a cane or a bludgeon. And

633
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: I have a drawing of a bludgeon, not this one,

634
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: if you want to know what it is. It's a

635
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: formidable weapon. But the skin's not broken, which makes me think,

636
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: once I've read the description of what a bludgeon is,

637
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 1: it must have been that. But what do you think

638
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: severe beating on the temple but the skin has not

639
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 1: been broken, what does that mean about the weapon?

640
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: This is yeah, no, this is interesting right now. Obviously

641
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: you haven't told me anything about what bleeding injuries he

642
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,399
Speaker 2: does have. But if the doctor is noticing something to

643
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,920
Speaker 2: his left temple, he must be noticing some sort of depression,

644
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 2: you know, like a heavier, masked blunt object struck White

645
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 2: on the head. Typically, if it's a sufficient blow, and

646
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 2: there is no intermediary object between the victim's head and

647
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: the weapon itself. You often would see the skin lacerated

648
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: where it's literally crushed open. The lack of that type

649
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 2: of laceration this tells me that there's a chance there's

650
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 2: two things that may be going on here. First, there

651
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: may have been a soft intermediate object such as a pillow,

652
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: that had been placed on his head prior to this

653
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: blow being delivered, and it would have to be a

654
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: fairly significant blow in order to cause this. I'm assuming

655
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: a depressed fracture to the victim's skull. But also his

656
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: head is on the bed. I don't know if his

657
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,280
Speaker 2: head is on a pillow or his head's on the mattress,

658
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: but this is a forgiving surface, and so there's energy

659
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 2: when that weapon strikes the victim's head. Well, the mattress

660
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 2: or the pellow is going to kind of cushion that

661
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 2: blow on the opposite side. So his head is both

662
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,840
Speaker 2: as a pillow on the top to his left temple,

663
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 2: as Wallace's head is on the mattress or another pellow

664
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 2: that I can see, where there's a lot of energy

665
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: that is being dissipated it may allow for the skull

666
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 2: to fracture without causing the skin to an essence rupture.

667
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: Well, this is interesting. I was thinking about what you

668
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: have said in the past, which is right if this

669
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 1: is happening in bed, and which it seems like it is,

670
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: and the mattress is cushioning or the pillows cushioning all

671
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,360
Speaker 1: of this, that's one thing. Let me show you a

672
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 1: photo of what they think the weapon was, which is

673
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: this bludgeon. This is an illustration from a newspaper, and

674
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: it looks to me like this is probably wrapped in leather.

675
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: That's what I'm reading is most of these would have

676
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 1: been wrapped in leather. But you see underneath it says

677
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: loaded with lead. So you can picture that kind of

678
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 1: a heavy object and you can describe it in a

679
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: second with a handle, but a soft outer and a

680
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: really hard innercore.

681
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this this bludgeon, you know, it appears to

682
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 2: be roughly in the shape of a small, small bat.

683
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,800
Speaker 2: And at least the way that I see these lines

684
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 2: going all away from the hand all the way to

685
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: the working end of this bludgeon, I'm assuming those lines

686
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: are indicative of the leather that is wrapped around it.

687
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: Part of what I would be evaluating, or what I

688
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: would want to know, is, Okay, it has a lead core.

689
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: There's obvious mass to this weapon. How thick is the leather?

690
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: Is there something that the leather is holding on, like

691
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 2: let's say like cork as an example. So you have

692
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: a lead core, then you have cork, and then you

693
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 2: have the leather wrapped around and so now you have

694
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: a forgiving aspect to this blunt object. So when it

695
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: strikes a hard surface, it in of itself absorbs some

696
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 2: of that energy because it can compress in that could

697
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: account for the lack of the skin laceration. I would

698
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 2: need to actually hold this thing and actually hit something

699
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 2: with it, just to get a feel for, you know,

700
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: how it responds when used as a bludgeting object.

701
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: Part of our budget I think encompasses me sending you

702
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: things via Amazon to demo. And since we don't have

703
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,280
Speaker 1: a corpse in the budget, I think I could probably

704
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 1: buy you a bludgeon. And there was a leather wrapped

705
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 1: cane someone was beaten with in a previous episode as well,

706
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 1: as you'll remember the shawl carrying object that a torso

707
00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:43,839
Speaker 1: was carried carried it so I feel like there's all

708
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: sorts of things I can eBay to you if possible.

709
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: Well, you think law enforcement, there was a time, like

710
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 2: when I went through the academy, we were trained with

711
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 2: the use of batons. Earlier law enforcement they would carry

712
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 2: these more padded soft tool that was padded, but then

713
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 2: they could use it to strike somebody they were interacting with,

714
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: like to get them under control, and so it was

715
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 2: padded in order to prevent inflicting too much damage, but

716
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: it would still get the person's attention when they were

717
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: struck by it. So there is a possibility, you know,

718
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 2: with something like this, this bludgeon that you showed me,

719
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:26,920
Speaker 2: if the weapon was designed in such a way to

720
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 2: try to prevent you know, that surface damage to the skin,

721
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 2: I think there's a possibility that that's what's going on here.

722
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: I still think whether the apello had been used as

723
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 2: an intermediate object, or the fact that his head is

724
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: cushioned on the bed in some manner that is also

725
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,320
Speaker 2: a contributing factor.

726
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: Well, Listen, the beating was terrible, but I'm not sure

727
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: that's what killed him. Because we now need to talk

728
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: about a second weapon, and I want to speculate about

729
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: how many people were talking about here, because well, let

730
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: me just tell you. Doctor Johnson continues to examine Captain

731
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: White's body. He notes that there are five stabs in

732
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: the region of the heart, so he's been stabbed. Also

733
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 1: three in front of the left pap, which they say

734
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: in parentheses is nipple, and five others still further back,

735
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: as though the arm had been lifted up and the

736
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: instrument struck underneath. So they're saying that he was stabbed

737
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: all with one weapon, likely a long dagger, thirteen times

738
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: and that's where all the blood came from.

739
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, the position of the arm being possibly raised.

740
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: You know, there's so much that goes into interpreting what's

741
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 2: going on here. But there's a couple of possibilities. Is

742
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: he clothed, like he hasn't gone to bed yet. Is

743
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 2: he in his pajamas? Can we kind of discern anything

744
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: in terms of where he was at for his nighttime routine.

745
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: I believe he was in his night clothes and he

746
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,399
Speaker 1: was in bed when he was attacked. Okay, they think

747
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 1: he was. And I have a lot more details about

748
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: the autopsy about broken bones and oozing blood versus spraying blood.

749
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: Doctor Johnson has a lot of theories going on here

750
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: when he died, how he died, what killed him. So

751
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 1: there's a lot of medical stuff. So you just tell

752
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: me kind of where you want me to go after this.

753
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: Sure, just on the surface, prior to hearing the details

754
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 2: of the autopsy, there's two scenarios that are going through

755
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: my head. You know. One is he's asleep when he's attacked.

756
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: He's just blitzed, and he may have just been naturally

757
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: in a position with his arm raised up in such

758
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: a way in which now the offender, before White even

759
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: wakes up, he's able to stab and do those thirteen

760
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: stab wounds. Right now, I can't sequence anything in terms

761
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: of what the information provided. So whether he's struck on

762
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 2: the head first, possibly rendered unconscious and then stabbed or stabbed,

763
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 2: which he's not necessarily just you don't die instantly with

764
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,279
Speaker 2: this type of stabbing. But he's now mortally wounded with

765
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: these thirteen stab wounds and then is struck in the head.

766
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: So now let's why don't you get into more of

767
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: the medical details.

768
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: Okay, this is what was printed in the Salem Gazette.

769
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 1: I can't imagine picking this up and having to read

770
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: this over your mush in the morning. This is the

771
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: autopsy report. This is a partial sentence. A fracture of

772
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 1: the skull bone was discovered, the largest diameter of which

773
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: was three and a half inches. This portion of bone

774
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: was depressed below the level of the surrounding skull and

775
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: was somewhat loose and movable. On examining the heart, there

776
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 1: were found at its apex two wounds. Also, a little

777
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 1: nearer the base of the heart were two slits. The

778
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: slits were found connected with the perforations and were evidently

779
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: produced by the same blows. The posterior an inferior portion

780
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: of the left lung was likewise perforated in several places.

781
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: End of autopsy report.

782
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 2: Okay, so he's several the stab wounds ended up being

783
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: to the heart or near the heart, and then several

784
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 2: of the stab wounds went into his lungs. You know,

785
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: that's fundamentally what that says. Then you have this depressed fracture,

786
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: you know, so this is a significant blow to his head.

787
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 2: This really underscores there is something that is preventing the

788
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: skin from being lacerated. Now that I know that, the

789
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 2: next thing I want to know is the description of

790
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: any of the blood patterns at the scene. Okay, there's

791
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 2: no observation of incisive injuries to his hands like he's

792
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 2: or his arms like he's in a defensive posture.

793
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: No, I don't see that. I don't see anything about

794
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: defensive wounds. Now what I see is doctor Johnson in

795
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty predicting a couple of things. The first is

796
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 1: he said, based on the temperature of Captain White's body,

797
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,479
Speaker 1: he thinks that Captain White was murdered three or four

798
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 1: hours before being discovered by Benjamin White. So Captain White

799
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,279
Speaker 1: went to bed at nine forty nine forty five the

800
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: night before Benjamin found him at six am, So it

801
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: sounds like based on his temperature, doctor Johnson thinks it

802
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: was around three in the morning, maybe two in the morning.

803
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: You know, this is obviously one hundred years before at

804
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: least liver temperature tests. So is that accurate the temperature

805
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: of Captain White's But not at all, Right.

806
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 2: I don't put much weight on that. You know, there's

807
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 2: so many variables when it comes to how fast the

808
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: body loses its temperature after it dies. You know, of course,

809
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 2: just the ambient temperature that the body's resting in. You know,

810
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 2: how cold or hot is it inside the house? How

811
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 2: many layers of clothing does the body have on you know,

812
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 2: does he have the comforter from the bed on him?

813
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: And you know we're talking April. You know, it's it's

814
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: not like they have all the necessary data to be

815
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 2: able to really refine what the time of death was

816
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: based on the loss of temperature. There's a reason we

817
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: don't do liver temperature anymore. You know, we don't take

818
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 2: temperatures of bodies out there rarely anyways, in my jurisdiction,

819
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 2: we don't. A lot of the estimations on how long

820
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: the body's been dead is based on you know, the

821
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: pathologists taking a look at the visual characteristics of the body.

822
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 2: Rigor mortises is also a prime thing there that's a

823
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: little bit better studied, but that's also subject to a

824
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 2: lot of variability in terms of how fast somebody goes

825
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 2: into rigor and what sequence they go into rigor, in

826
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: terms of the smaller muscles to the larger muscles and

827
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: et cetera. So right now, you know, from my perspective

828
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 2: is he was last seen at nine point forty the

829
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 2: night before. Right, he's found at six o'clock in the morning.

830
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 2: He could have been killed any time in between those

831
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 2: two moments.

832
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 1: Yep. And I think really what it comes down to

833
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 1: is who had access to the house, how would the

834
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 1: windows have gotten over open? And we'll talk about that

835
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: in a minute. I've got one more piece of medical

836
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: information that I'm not sure is particularly helpful, but I

837
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: just want to see if Samuel Johnson, the doctor in

838
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty, is right, because I hadn't thought about this before.

839
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 1: Doctor Johnson thinks that Captain White received his head injury

840
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: before he was attacked with the knife, if that's what

841
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:25,320
Speaker 1: we think it is. Because the captain's stab wounds seemed

842
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: to have oozed, not sprayed, So doctor Johnson thinks that

843
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: the blows to the captain's head might have slowed down

844
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 1: his blood circulation, which would explain why with the stab

845
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: wounds the blood didn't spray everywhere. It sort of oozed out.

846
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Is that real? No?

847
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 2: He's way off on that. Oh so, yeah, this is

848
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 2: a pretty telling in terms of what his level of

849
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 2: expertise is when it comes to evaluating the wounds and

850
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 2: what's going on in a crime scene. People have this

851
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,160
Speaker 2: impression and A lot of it has to do when

852
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 2: you cut into let's say, you expose an artery while

853
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,320
Speaker 2: the heart is pumping, you get what's called an arterial

854
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: spurt if it's able to actually you know, emanate out

855
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 2: of the wound. But when you start talking about stab wounds,

856
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 2: and typically you see arterial spurts when you see a

857
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: cut to the neck that cuts down into the carotid arteries,

858
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: stab wounds to the chest, you're not breaching you know,

859
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 2: these arteries. Really you're talking you know, the aorda. You're

860
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 2: not opening up an artery that's close to the surface,

861
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 2: and you have all the tissue surrounding tissue with the

862
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: stab wounds. The knife goes in six inches, it may

863
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: nick or completely cut into an artery. When that knife

864
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: comes out, stab wounds generally will bleed and potentially can

865
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: bleed heavily. But if somebody's wearing a shirt that prevents

866
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: a lot of the blood from actually, you know, if

867
00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: they're up walking around while they're stabbed, or even after

868
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: they've been stabbed, you're not seeing a ton of blood

869
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: being deposited at the crime scene, just merely from the

870
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 2: stab wounds. Where you really start to see a lot

871
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 2: of blood, especially if if you've got patterns like cast

872
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: off patterns. That's where from the defensive injuries. Now you

873
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: have heavily bleeding wounds on the arms, and as the

874
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,880
Speaker 2: victim is moving around either warding off the offender or

875
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: the offender you know there's a fight going on, That's

876
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: when you start to see a lot of this cast

877
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: off patterns or spatter patterns. If you have a blow

878
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: to a bloody source. But merely stabbings to the chest

879
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: is not going to cause the spraying, you know, and

880
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:45,960
Speaker 2: the idea that he's saying, well this oozing versus spraying

881
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: is just completely inaccurate. You know, basically what I would

882
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: be looking at is, well, how much bleeding did occur

883
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 2: from the stab wounds. Did the margins of the stab

884
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 2: wounds appear to exhibit hemorrhaging like the blood, but that

885
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: the heart was still pumping, there was still blood pressure

886
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: causing the bleeding, or did the blow kill Doctor White

887
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 2: his heart has stopped beating and then he has received

888
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: some stab wounds, and then you have some seepage if

889
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 2: you will, you know, as the body's being moved or

890
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:18,839
Speaker 2: as he's kind of laying there for a period of time,

891
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 2: you know, so it's more nuanced than what this pathologist

892
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: or this doctor is saying.

893
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: Well, and I'm not sure it really has an impact

894
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: on the case. I think it was really interesting just hearing.

895
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: You know, we're always sometimes either dismayed or impressed by

896
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: the experts in the time periods that we talk about,

897
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: and sometimes they are right on. And sometimes they are

898
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,440
Speaker 1: using magnets to drag the bottom of a river to

899
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 1: try to find a good which I think is a

900
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:49,799
Speaker 1: valiant effort, but maybe not particularly effective. So I like

901
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: to hear what experts thought, and sometimes it goes awry

902
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 1: and convicts an innocent person. But this I'm not sure

903
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: has that much impact on the case. What I want

904
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: to know from you is this, how many people do

905
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 1: we think? We're talking about eighty two year old man?

906
00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: But I think this is weird because they are predicting

907
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: this as a long knife. They are predicting this as

908
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: a bludgeon which was found nearby, kind of in the

909
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 1: yard of a church, underneath a church. Heavy heavy weapon,

910
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:27,839
Speaker 1: long knife? Is one person really carrying those things into

911
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 1: the house and using both of them. I mean I

912
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: could see a gun and a knife, but two handheld

913
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: weapons for one person seems weird to me for some reason, but.

914
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: It's entirely possible. Okay, Yeah, first, right now, this dagger

915
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 2: that possibly was used, it may have just been something

916
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 2: that was inside the victim's house. The offender may have

917
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: brought a bludgeoning weapon with him and I'm using the

918
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:59,719
Speaker 2: term him right now just generically not no opinion right

919
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,400
Speaker 2: now in terms of the gender of the offender, you know,

920
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: and after striking the victim with this bludgeon, sees a

921
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: knife and grabs a knife. Could have brought both weapons. DiAngelo,

922
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: the Golden State killer would come in in one case

923
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 2: he has a padded baton and a handgun with him

924
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: that he brought to the scene.

925
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 1: Wow.

926
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: Right, so this is not unheard of at all. You know,

927
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 2: the assessment of the number of offenders can't be done

928
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,319
Speaker 2: right now. You know, there is sometimes a suggestion that

929
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,640
Speaker 2: you may have multiple offenders because you have different weapons,

930
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,440
Speaker 2: two different weapons being used, but it does not eliminate

931
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: the possibility of a single offender utilizing both weapons.

932
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: Well, that's good to know. Moving forward, we have these

933
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: two lay investigators, Stephen White, who is a nephew of

934
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: Captain White and then a business associate named William Ward,

935
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: and they are conducting this investigation, potentially contaminating the crime scene.

936
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,320
Speaker 1: But let's see what they found. They looked at the window.

937
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: It was not tampered with, so it doesn't look like

938
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: somebody has been messing with the lock to remove it

939
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 1: and manage to jimmy it open. It doesn't look like

940
00:53:11,719 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: somebody broke anything. It seems like it was intentionally left open.

941
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: So immediately people are thinking about the domestic servants and

942
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: is this some sort of setup, And we can talk

943
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:26,600
Speaker 1: about that in a second. Let me tell you what

944
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: other physical evidence they find. They see two well defined

945
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 1: footprints in the mud because it had rained. It was April,

946
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: right outside the mansion, not far from the window, and

947
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: footprints were not used in the eighteen thirties traditionally, But

948
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,359
Speaker 1: these two guys thought this was important and maybe they

949
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: would be helpful in identifying who the person was who

950
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: killed this man. And so they take a milk pan

951
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 1: and put it over the footprints to preserve them because

952
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: it was starting to missed. And then they start trying

953
00:53:59,880 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: to say, well, what is the motive here? The domestic

954
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: servants scour the whole house and nothing was taken, including

955
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: the iron box of gold pieces that were laying very

956
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 1: close to the captain's body where his bed was. So

957
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: it does not seem like robbery was a motive, which

958
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: is pretty surprising to me. If you've got these gold

959
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 1: pieces right there, the boxes open, they can take them.

960
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 1: Why would you not, just out of convenience steal something

961
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 1: from this house.

962
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the property crime aspect does not appear to

963
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: be the primary motive. The primary motive was to go

964
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:44,359
Speaker 2: in and kill White. Now what you're describing as footprints,

965
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to just make a comment is that it

966
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 2: sounds like this said mud probably these I'm assuming they

967
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 2: weren't feet, but they were shoes or boots, you know,

968
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 2: so shoe impressions impression evidence, and it is something you

969
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: have to pay attention to. I mean, we do the

970
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 2: same thing, and I have to commend them to recognize

971
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 2: that if they hadn't protected this impression evidence, they could

972
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 2: have lost it. And that's part of approaching a crime scene.

973
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 2: It's looking for I've got potentially some transient evidence that

974
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,879
Speaker 2: could be lost unless I do something. Now, I've got

975
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 2: rain coming in, and I've got tire impressions shoe impressions.

976
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,480
Speaker 2: I got cartridge cases in the gutter. I have to

977
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 2: take steps very rapidly to protect that evidence or it

978
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 2: could be lost forever.

979
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: Well. Benjamin and Lydia are immediately dragged over to these

980
00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:40,320
Speaker 1: shoeprint impressions and compared. Because these are the domestic servants,

981
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 1: they don't match the sizes or the type of shoe

982
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 1: that we're talking about. There's no mud on their shoes,

983
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: and of course these two men examined Benjamin and Lydia's

984
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: all of their shoes, no mud. It doesn't appear like

985
00:55:54,239 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: they were the ones responsible. And they also say Stephen

986
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 1: White says nothing was taken. What is the motive for

987
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 1: these two domestic servants to kill this man? He is

988
00:56:05,480 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: gainfully employing them. He was not a particularly nice person,

989
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: Captain White, but it doesn't sound like he was a

990
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 1: bad person to work for necessarily. So it's a little

991
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: bit of a why killed the Golden Goose situation? And

992
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: Benjamin and Lydia, I guess, to their delight, are dismissed.

993
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: They're you know, not suspected in any way. And Stephen

994
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,320
Speaker 1: White and his powell William Ward are trying to figure

995
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:32,760
Speaker 1: out what happened after that? What do you think about

996
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:37,040
Speaker 1: going ahead and dismissing the domestic servants just based on

997
00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:39,399
Speaker 1: the fact that nothing was taken in why else would

998
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: domestic servants kill their boss?

999
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think along these lines. You when

1000
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: you start saying that they were dismissed, how much of

1001
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,160
Speaker 2: an interview was actually done. It doesn't appear that they

1002
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:57,840
Speaker 2: would not have financially benefited from killing White without taking

1003
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 2: some property, right, But what else is going on between

1004
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 2: them and the victim? You know, is there potentially a

1005
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 2: non financial motive that could have caused them to act

1006
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: out and go ahead and kill So they would be

1007
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 2: extensively interviewed because they have opportunity. They're inside the residents,

1008
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 2: they know how to move around the residence, and they

1009
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 2: know when White would be the most vulnerable, so very

1010
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: early on you have to get their statements. But they're

1011
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 2: also potentially witnesses in some capacity, you know, in terms

1012
00:57:37,680 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: of their observations of the state of the house. The

1013
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: window something that is standing out to me a little

1014
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: bit as you're talking about it had rained. Is there

1015
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 2: any information you have that there had been mud tracked

1016
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: inside this house?

1017
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: Not that's been mentioned in the research now and I.

1018
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: Can't imagine, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but thinking

1019
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: back to that photo of that window, if that was

1020
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 2: the point of entry, there was no pavement underneath that window,

1021
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: that was just soil. So if it had been raining

1022
00:58:13,760 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 2: at the time the offenders, let's say, entered the house,

1023
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 2: it had to walk across that location in order to

1024
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 2: get up into that window, I would think that there

1025
00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,640
Speaker 2: would be maybe some soil transferred on the windowsill and

1026
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 2: inside the residents. But without any observations, it's kind of

1027
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 2: hard to draw any conclusions. You know. This is where

1028
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: I'm trying to evaluate. Do we know that the offenders

1029
00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 2: came from the outside or could the offenders have come

1030
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 2: from the inside and never left.

1031
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:43,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be interesting as this unfolds. There are a

1032
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: lot more details with no police. So this is the

1033
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: time in Salem before police, it seems like, and in

1034
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,520
Speaker 1: lieu of the police in a lot of towns in

1035
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,640
Speaker 1: the United States was something called a committee of vigilance,

1036
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: which I've written about a lot. Like every story every

1037
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: book I've ever written, has some sort of committee of vigilance,

1038
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: which are good citizens supposedly who come together and often

1039
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 1: it turns into a lynch mob essentially, but they are

1040
00:59:13,960 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: here to investigate. So Stephen White, who is the captain's nephew,

1041
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: has posted an incredibly large reward for any information about

1042
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 1: his uncle's murder. And this murder has sent shock waves

1043
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 1: across Salem and really New England in general. People are

1044
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: starting to arm themselves with cutlasses, they have watchdogs, they

1045
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: have pistols. Of course, it's terrifying because you've got this

1046
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: fortress that's locked up. Someone managed to get inside of

1047
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 1: it kill a respected citizen who had a lot of wealth,

1048
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: with servants and relatives who were in the house at

1049
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:53,920
Speaker 1: the same time, so this is terrifying to a lot

1050
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: of people. There are twenty seven members of this committee,

1051
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: all men, of course, and the the MIDI is starting

1052
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,600
Speaker 1: to search private homes and no warrants of course, and

1053
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 1: businesses and Salem residents don't seem to mind this because

1054
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,120
Speaker 1: they really want to figure out what's been going on.

1055
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: And about a week after the Captain's murder, the investigation

1056
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: finally gets a break when Stephen White, the nephew, receives

1057
01:00:20,520 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: a very odd letter in the mail. This is from

1058
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 1: a jailer supposedly in New Bedford, which is about seventy

1059
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: miles away from Salem. He says that an inmate had

1060
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: information on the case and you should contact the sky.

1061
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: So Stephen White connects with the inmate who is only

1062
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: labeled as a convicted pickpocket that is nicknamed Hatch. Hatch

1063
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 1: says that back in February, this is two months before

1064
01:00:47,240 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: the murder, he overheard two brothers hatching a plan to

1065
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: break into Captain White's home. So before we even talk

1066
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: about that, let's talk about snitches. Is that the politically

1067
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: correct term? We say something different now? I think snitches

1068
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:07,440
Speaker 1: is probably still acceptable. So snitches are they reliable or

1069
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: is it a snitch by snitch basis? Really? Is that

1070
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: a price?

1071
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, you know the snitch you know today it's

1072
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 2: usually an informant.

1073
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: Okay, there you go. It is politically correct. There is

1074
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: another term.

1075
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 2: Okay, you know it all depends on the informant, who

1076
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 2: they are, their motivation to pass on the information. You know,

1077
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 2: when I'm initially hearing a jailer has an inmate who

1078
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 2: has information, I'm immediately going, hm, I need to know

1079
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: more before I trust this inmate. And this was a

1080
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 2: high profile case. You know, you do have these informants

1081
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 2: that come forward claiming they have information. They're trying to

1082
01:01:53,240 --> 01:01:57,439
Speaker 2: leverage information that they may have overheard, like in this case,

1083
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 2: you know, the two brothers, you know, talking about breaking

1084
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 2: into the victim's house in order to benefit them in

1085
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 2: terms of their current plight. You know, I want a

1086
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 2: shorter sentence, I want better accommodations when I'm here in

1087
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 2: jail or prison. So if all he's saying is okay,

1088
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: I heard these two brothers, that information has to be

1089
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 2: verified as to okay, where did you hear these two

1090
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 2: brothers talking? What exactly did they say? Can I truly

1091
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:29,320
Speaker 2: place this inmate at a location where those two brothers

1092
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 2: were where legitimately, you know, let's say they were sellies

1093
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:35,440
Speaker 2: together or you know, in the same who knows, you know,

1094
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 2: same town, and then what details can this inmate provide?

1095
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,520
Speaker 2: I mean, in many of these current cases that we have,

1096
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 2: we do have informants come forward, and oftentimes they are inmates,

1097
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 2: and sometimes they provide good solid information. Oftentimes they don't,

1098
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: you know, so it really debits, like what you said,

1099
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: it's snitch by.

1100
01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: Snitch, where we're gonna have to find out if hatch

1101
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 1: the snitch slash informant is reliable or not. So he says,

1102
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:10,720
Speaker 1: I heard this plot by these two guys to break

1103
01:03:10,800 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: into Captain White's home. What's confusing is nothing was stolen.

1104
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 1: They did not say we're breaking in to kill this guy.

1105
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,920
Speaker 1: They just wanted to break in and hatch. Just assume

1106
01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: they were talking about robbery. So the vigilance committee says

1107
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: to the snitch, so who are these brothers exactly? And

1108
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: he says they are the Crown and Schelled brothers. And

1109
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 1: immediately the vigilance committee knows this family. They are a

1110
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,360
Speaker 1: very prominent, well known family in Salem. And this is

1111
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: now turned into a big case because why would two

1112
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:53,479
Speaker 1: brothers from this prominent family have broken into this old

1113
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,520
Speaker 1: man's house and then killed them? And I will tell

1114
01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: you we have to break here until next week, but

1115
01:03:59,560 --> 01:04:04,080
Speaker 1: I will tell you that very quickly, Stephen White, the

1116
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:09,080
Speaker 1: man investigating this, the dead man's nephew, is being drawn

1117
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: in very quickly as a suspect.

1118
01:04:11,120 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 2: Oh so you just threw a twist out there.

1119
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 1: And did I almost said Don Dunton, but that was

1120
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 1: too cliche. Part two coming at you in one week.

1121
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 2: Fall holds all right, I'm looking forward to it.

1122
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our.

1123
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 2: Sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash

1124
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: Buried Bones sources.

1125
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

1126
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1127
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1128
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1129
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1130
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

1131
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1132
01:04:58,400 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: Buried Bones Pod.

1133
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1134
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

1135
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,360
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

1136
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:11,000
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's

1137
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now