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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most compelling.

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Speaker 2: True crimes, and I weigh in using modern forensic techniques

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Speaker 2: to bring new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you today?

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Speaker 1: I'm well, Paul, how about you?

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Speaker 3: I am?

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Speaker 2: I am doing good. In fact, I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 2: the Christmas break. I'm going to be in Hawaii for

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Speaker 2: part of that.

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Speaker 1: Hawaii? Really, how do I get that gig? Can I

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Speaker 1: come to Do you want to do a show? And

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I can find a Hawaii story we can do.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, Go visit my parents who live out there,

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Speaker 2: and quick trip out, quick trip back. It's been a

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Speaker 2: couple of years since I've been out there, so it'll

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Speaker 2: be fun.

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Speaker 1: Do you go over Christmas Eve Christmas Day? Or are

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Speaker 1: you kind of going around it?

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Speaker 2: Go around for sure, try to avoid, you know, the

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Speaker 2: real crush of the of the travel. But it's still

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Speaker 2: going to be tough, you know, anytime during that period

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Speaker 2: is a tough travel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to really try to muster up some

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Speaker 1: sympathy for you. Wi You're lying on a beach somewhere

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Speaker 1: seeing your parents on the holidays while I'm in Texas

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Speaker 1: freezing with the definition of freezing in Texas being probably

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Speaker 1: about fifty degrees.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll be thinking about you at least. How's that?

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you. I appreciate that this is our kind

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Speaker 1: of holiday Christmas ye episode, and I have a Christmas

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Speaker 1: story for you. But as you know, we are a

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Speaker 1: true crime show, so this is definitely not about Santa Claus.

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Speaker 1: This is definitely a story about the Christmas holidays and

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Speaker 1: some of the good and bad that comes with I

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Speaker 1: think investigating around the holidays. Did you work on Christmas? Ever?

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't recall being called out on Christmas Day,

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Speaker 2: though I'm not entirely sure about that. I definitely was

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Speaker 2: called out New Year's Eve, New Year's Day, you know,

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Speaker 2: over the course of my career when I was actively

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Speaker 2: on call.

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Speaker 3: This is a busy time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, families get together, family strife rears its ugly head,

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Speaker 2: somebody ends up dead.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I see it. There's economics involved. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's financial strain, there's right stressful families, all that kind

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Speaker 1: of stuff happening, and then you have to think that

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Speaker 1: you have investigators, you know, like in journalism. We had

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Speaker 1: definitely had people on call, and I worked several Christmases,

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Speaker 1: many Christmas Is actually, but we had less people than

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Speaker 1: we we normally would have, and I imagine that has

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Speaker 1: to be the same for police at least that was

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Speaker 1: the case in what we're about to deal with.

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Speaker 2: Of course, within the department there's mandatory staffing aspects. However,

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Speaker 2: many people were granted time off as long as you know,

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Speaker 2: the fundamental services were covered. I know what we would do,

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Speaker 2: because this is what I was on call for CSI

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Speaker 2: work while I was with the lab is. We would

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Speaker 2: try to rotate the holidays across the staff so the

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Speaker 2: same person wasn't on call the next year for Christmas

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Speaker 2: and or New Year's you know, we are always trying

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Speaker 2: to at least spread that pain out, but we did

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Speaker 2: not increase our staffing during that time, even though it's

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Speaker 2: a busy time historically.

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Speaker 1: Well, this I think has in some ways the disadvantage

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Speaker 1: of this happening on Christmas. Let's do a couple of

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Speaker 1: things before we jump in. Number One, this is a

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Speaker 1: case suggested by a listener. Love that. Number two, my

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Speaker 1: friend who's a fantastic author, Abbot Taylor, who has been

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Speaker 1: on my show a couple of times now. She's also

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Speaker 1: known as Karen Abbott. She's a wonderful author. She wrote

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Speaker 1: about this in her blog, which is how I found it.

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Speaker 1: I was reading something that she had written, and I thought,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, this would be a great Buried Bones

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Speaker 1: episode because it is a Christmas mystery, big mystery mixed

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Speaker 1: in with some conspiracy, which I like a good conspiracy sometimes,

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Speaker 1: and we certainly have that here. So I would buckle

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Speaker 1: up and get ready because you know, we are going

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Speaker 1: to be heading into I think, a time period that's

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Speaker 1: really going to be interesting and also a family. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of stuff happening where we have to figure

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Speaker 1: out what happened.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, ho ho ho, I'm ready for you.

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Speaker 1: Here we go. Let's set the scene. In my family,

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Speaker 1: Christmas Eve is the big thing, big big deal. That's

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Speaker 1: where we have dinner at my mom's house. Traditional. Everybody

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Speaker 1: gets stressed up relatively, We have a nice dinner that night,

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Speaker 1: and then Christmas Day is a lot more laid back.

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Speaker 1: I think we've probably talked about this before. You know.

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Speaker 1: The kids are up at five inexplicably and open presence,

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Speaker 1: and then we're kind of done. We talked up later

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Speaker 1: that day and sometimes we'll have a good dinner afterwards.

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Speaker 1: But Christmas Eve is a really big deal in our family.

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Speaker 1: And is that that big of a deal for you

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Speaker 1: too or no.

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Speaker 2: We sort of have a tradition and it comes from

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Speaker 2: my wife's side where she has to watch Christmas Story.

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Speaker 1: Doll she try out kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's that's kind of the big event. And

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Speaker 2: then the kids get to pick a present from out

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Speaker 2: of the tree that they want to open on Christmas Eve.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's kind of it, which I we never

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Speaker 2: did that in my when I was growing up for Christmas,

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Speaker 2: and so for.

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Speaker 3: Me, I'm like, no, no, no, they need to wait

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Speaker 3: until the morning.

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Speaker 2: It's like, oh, come on, let them have you know,

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Speaker 2: the kids are older now, they actually sleep in on

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Speaker 2: Christmas Morning, which is nice.

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Speaker 1: It sounds really nice. Yeah, so so fantastic.

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Speaker 2: But I wouldn't say that we make a real big

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Speaker 2: deal out of Christmas Eve.

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Speaker 1: All right, well, this is a Christmas story. I would

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Speaker 1: say only in the idea that I think we are

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Speaker 1: undermanned here with investigators, which is never good news for

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Speaker 1: you and I. When the people you know in our

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Speaker 1: stories don't have enough either forensic experience or forensic tools

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Speaker 1: or just like manpower, things tend to go wrong here.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like this is kind of where we're

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Speaker 1: heading a little bit with this story, which is still

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Speaker 1: a mystery and I can't wait to tell you about it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So this is Christmas of nineteen forty five. World War

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Speaker 1: Two has just ended. Things are not settled obviously in

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Speaker 1: the United States, and we're focusing in on a family

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Speaker 1: that immigrated from Italy. And so the patriarch of this

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Speaker 1: family is a guy named George Sadu, and he was

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Speaker 1: born in Italy in eighteen ninety five. He came to

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Speaker 1: the United States at the age of thirteen. So we're

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Speaker 1: actually going to West Virginia for this story. So the

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Speaker 1: main character, as I said right now, is his name

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Speaker 1: is George, and he finds employment on the Pennsylvania railroads.

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Speaker 1: He's like toting supplies to laborers. That's a job. And

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Speaker 1: he eventually lands in West Virginia. He gets a job

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Speaker 1: in trucking. He falls in love with a woman named

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Speaker 1: Jenny Cipriani. George and Jenny eventually marry and they settle

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Speaker 1: in a small Appalachian town called Fayettesville, West Virginia, where

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Speaker 1: they connect with other Italian Americans in the community. So

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Speaker 1: here's where things get complicated. You know, I told you

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Speaker 1: this is a little got some conspiracy elements to it.

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Speaker 1: So George Sado is very well respected. The problem is,

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Speaker 1: you know, when they moved to West Virginia, within those

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Speaker 1: few years before nineteen forty five, before what happened happens,

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Speaker 1: he becomes very outspoken about Mussolini before Mussolini is killed, okay,

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Speaker 1: and it causes a lot of tension. He has gotten

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Speaker 1: into arguments with other people of Italian heritage in Fayetteville

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Speaker 1: over these political different pferences. We have not done a

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Speaker 1: ton of stories on political conspiracies. This is very much

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Speaker 1: something we need to think about. We have talked about

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Speaker 1: the black Glove Oh yeah, you know, society. We've talked

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Speaker 1: about that a couple of times, and we've talked about

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Speaker 1: the Cuban mob in New York in that one case

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Speaker 1: of the restaurant here who was killed. But we really

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Speaker 1: haven't gotten too much into it otherwise, and this is

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Speaker 1: going to be, I think, a pretty big part of

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Speaker 1: the story. So George is very outspoken, he's very political.

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Speaker 1: He hates Mussolini. There are people in this small town

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Speaker 1: who love Mussolini or you know, have reverence to him,

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Speaker 1: and so already there's sort of tension there to begin with.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to set the scene by saying,

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Speaker 1: George seems like a great guy. They end up with

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Speaker 1: ten kids. Cool, wow, great guy, ten kids, seems like

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Speaker 1: a happy home life. But he is making some pretty

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Speaker 1: big enemies over a very controversial figure for sure. So

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Speaker 1: that said, they welcome their first child, John, in nineteen

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Speaker 1: twenty three. They have ten kids, as I said, by

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty three, and George goes on to establish his

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Speaker 1: own trucking company and they have like a comfy, middle

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Speaker 1: class lifestyle, which is great coming from a guy who

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Speaker 1: was an immigrant at the age of thirteen, who you know,

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Speaker 1: was delivering goods to or delivering supplies to railroad workers

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Speaker 1: to then starting his own trucking company. So things are

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Speaker 1: going really well in late nineteen forty five. So this

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Speaker 1: is after World War Two, after Mussolini has died, but

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Speaker 1: George is still i'm sure, spouting off about you know,

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Speaker 1: Italy and fascism and everything that's happening. A few bizarre

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Speaker 1: things start to happen that George and his wife talked

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Speaker 1: to investigators about. The first thing occurs in the fall

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Speaker 1: a guy shows up looking for work. Okay, so during

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Speaker 1: this visit, the man points to two fuse boxes outside

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Speaker 1: of George's house and reportedly tells him this is going

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Speaker 1: to cause a fire someday. And George thinks this is

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Speaker 1: a weird observation because someone from the power company had

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Speaker 1: checked the wiring and said, your boxes look great, no problem,

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Speaker 1: you don't need to upgrade or do anything. This might

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Speaker 1: not be anything, but it upsets him and kind of

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Speaker 1: creeps him out that some stranger he doesn't even know

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Speaker 1: is making a comment about there being a fire. So

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Speaker 1: somebody who was outspoken politically in such a tense atmosphere,

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Speaker 1: I think is probably picking up on all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things that could be innocuous when you think, and.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering, is George perceiving this statement by the man

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Speaker 2: as being sort of a threat. Yes, So this man

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Speaker 2: shows up says I need a job, and oh, by

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Speaker 2: the way, those two fuse boxes could cause a fire.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's saying, what are you talking about? These are

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Speaker 1: in great condition. And it sounds like the guy was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm just telling you, you know, this is what I see.

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Speaker 1: I think it made him nervous. But I'm betting if

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Speaker 1: you're spouting out about Mussolini in an Italian American community

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Speaker 1: that is probably pretty pro Mussolini. A lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: makes you nervous.

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Speaker 2: And it may also be the body language that this

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Speaker 2: man used, and he made that statement which set George

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Speaker 2: off you and I was like, okay, this guy is

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Speaker 2: he's threatening me.

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Speaker 1: There's another man that shows up not long after. So

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Speaker 1: based on reporting, we don't have a ton of information

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Speaker 1: on this Paul. But based on reporting, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: the family knows this guy, but he's not often identified,

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Speaker 1: you know, by name and source material. He's described as

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Speaker 1: a local insurance salesman and he is hoping to sell

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Speaker 1: the family life insurance policies. The context here is a

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Speaker 1: bit unclear, but it seems like there's an argument that

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Speaker 1: breaks out between the salesman and George, perhaps because of

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Speaker 1: the execution of Mussolini earlier that year. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: is just something that George harped on. So before the

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Speaker 1: salesman leaves, they're in this fight. He starts to leave

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Speaker 1: and he says, according to George, your goddamn house is

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Speaker 1: going to go up in smoke and your children are

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Speaker 1: going to be destroyed. You are going to be paid

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Speaker 1: for the dirty remarks you have been making about Mussoline.

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Speaker 2: The second man is aware of George's stances on Mussolini

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Speaker 2: over time. So obviously, now, okay, this wasn't just this

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Speaker 2: guy showing up and then there's a spontaneous argument over Mussolini.

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Speaker 2: This guy already has a bias against George because of

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Speaker 2: Georgia's stances against Mussolini.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. So later in an afternoon, shortly

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Speaker 1: before Christmas, So what happens happens on Christmas Eve into

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Speaker 1: Christmas Day. Later, on an afternoon before Christmas, George's kids

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Speaker 1: notice there's a man sitting inside a parked car, on

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Speaker 1: the highway near their home. I think they must mean

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Speaker 1: like pulled over on the shoulder or something. They think

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Speaker 1: this man is watching them as they walk from school

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Speaker 1: to home. But we don't know a lot about it.

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Speaker 1: It's just that the kids are saying, this guy was

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Speaker 1: watching us, and we don't know what the intentions were.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know who it was, They couldn't describe the car.

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Speaker 1: And these are all little kids. He has a ton

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Speaker 1: of little kids.

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Speaker 2: Right, so you know, and this is where it now.

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Speaker 2: If you're sitting in a car and you see a

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Speaker 2: few kids walking, you know, sometimes you'll glance over and

250
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Speaker 2: notice the kids, or you know, you got your predators. Right,

251
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Speaker 2: they're sitting in the car, they see the kids, and

252
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,319
Speaker 2: now they're tunnel visioned on the kids, and now that

253
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Speaker 2: creep factor comes out. These kids are at least sensing

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Speaker 2: some sort of creep factor. Now in the context of

255
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Speaker 2: this story, it sounds like they're thinking it's more in

256
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Speaker 2: line with the like the two previous men, who are

257
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Speaker 2: you know, one indirectly is indicating that George's house is

258
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Speaker 2: going to burn down. The second man explicitly states his

259
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Speaker 2: house is going to burn down because of the Mussolini

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Speaker 2: political aspects. So these kids are in tune that, oh,

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Speaker 2: something is going on, you know, with dad and the family,

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Speaker 2: and they're going, this guy isn't right.

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Speaker 3: Who's sitting in the.

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Speaker 1: Car, And this must have just set George and Jenny

265
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Speaker 1: around the holidays on edge. I mean, as if they're

266
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Speaker 1: not on edge already from World War Two and Mussolini

267
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Speaker 1: and the execution. This is not good. It's Christmas Eve.

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Speaker 1: It's a little after midnight, so technically Christmas Day. Everyone

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Speaker 1: is asleep. And here's the list. I haven't told you

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Speaker 1: about the ages of the kids. So you've got George Senior,

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Speaker 1: and you've got Jenny. You've got John, their son who

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Speaker 1: is twenty three. They have a twenty one year old

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Speaker 1: son named Joe, but he's in the military. So they've

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Speaker 1: got John's twenty three, Marion seventeen. These are all people

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Speaker 1: in the house. George who is sixteen, Maurice who is

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Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen, Martha's twelve, Lewis's nine, and Jenny Junior

277
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Speaker 1: is eight, Betty is five or six, and Sylvia's two.

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Speaker 1: And then of course I said, you know there's a

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Speaker 1: son who's out the military. They're all at home. Okay,

280
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Speaker 1: so you're with me so far packed house? Yes, twelve

281
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Speaker 1: thirty am. Christmas Day just became Christmas Day. The phone rings,

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Speaker 1: and this is where the trouble starts. Jenny and George

283
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Speaker 1: have a bedroom on the ground floor. She gets out

284
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Speaker 1: of bed, she heads into another room to answer it.

285
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Speaker 1: The caller is a woman. Jenny does not recognize the voice,

286
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Speaker 1: so the woman asks for an unfamiliar name, somebody who

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Speaker 1: doesn't live there. Jenny can hear laughter and glasses clinking

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Speaker 1: in the background. Sounds like she's at a party. Jenny,

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Speaker 1: I mean basically just says I think this is a

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Speaker 1: wrong number and hangs up the phone. Then as she

291
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Speaker 1: walks back to her bed, she notices that some of

292
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Speaker 1: the lights are still on around the house, and the

293
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,080
Speaker 1: home's curtains are open, and the front door is unlocked.

294
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Speaker 1: All of this is happening, so, you know, they went

295
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Speaker 1: to bed and everything seemed to have been secured, and

296
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Speaker 1: then Jenny wakes up at twelve thirty and there's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of you know, there's lights and all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things happening, and she can see that her daughter, Marian

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Speaker 1: is asleep on the couch. So she figures the other

300
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Speaker 1: kids are upstairs in their bedrooms. She closes the house

301
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Speaker 1: and turns off the lights, and then she climbs into bed,

302
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Speaker 1: and then things start to happen. So are we thinking,

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Speaker 1: if something bad happens here, that this phone call is

304
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,160
Speaker 1: a way to confirm that somebody's home. Do you think

305
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,760
Speaker 1: if it's connected, well, it.

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Speaker 2: Could be the culture in our country with the landline phones.

307
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 2: I go back, you know, all the way to the

308
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 2: you know, the early seventies is probably my earliest memories

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Speaker 2: related to the phones in the house.

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Speaker 3: But this is, you know, nineteen forty five.

311
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Speaker 2: You know, this is well before there were there was

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00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:26,400
Speaker 2: voicemail or voice recorders, you know, so if the phone

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Speaker 2: rang in your house, you answered it. And in fact,

314
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Speaker 2: burglars would take advantage of that. They would call houses

315
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Speaker 2: during the day to figure out when, you know, people

316
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,520
Speaker 2: were home or not, and then they could start planning

317
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,720
Speaker 2: which houses they were going to burglarize based on that

318
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,680
Speaker 2: type of information. So this female calling at twelve thirty

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Speaker 2: am Christmas, you know, that's rude first, you know, but

320
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Speaker 2: I would not eliminate the possibility this was somebody trying

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00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,880
Speaker 2: to check are they actually home or was it just

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Speaker 2: a random phone call. You know, maybe something like that happens.

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Speaker 2: She's drinking dials a number. But right now with kind

324
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Speaker 2: of the lead up with these strange men, sounds like

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Speaker 2: something bad's about to happen inside this house. That yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think that that is a distinct possibility that she

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Speaker 2: is checking making sure people are at the house before

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Speaker 2: whatever bad thing is going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, Jenny tries to blow this off. As I said,

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Speaker 1: She closes up the house, she turns out the lights.

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Speaker 1: Marian's on the sofa asleep. She gets back into bed.

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Speaker 1: She starts to doze off, and she hears a bang

333
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Speaker 1: on the roof and then the sound of something rolling.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't do anything about it. She goes back to sleep,

335
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Speaker 1: and when she wakes up about twenty minutes later, the

336
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Speaker 1: bedroom is filled with smoke and the house is on fire.

337
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Speaker 3: Sounds like a Molotov cocktail.

338
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Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen plenty of war movies, So how

339
00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,280
Speaker 1: does this work? Somebody? Is this like a grenade where

340
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Speaker 1: somebody's pulling a pen and throwing it or what.

341
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Speaker 2: There could be a wide variety of different types of

342
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:09,000
Speaker 2: incendiary devices that could have been used. When I use

343
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 2: the term Molotov cocktail. You know, there's different ways that

344
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 2: these can be constructed, but you just think of having

345
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 2: a bottle filled with a flammable liquid and you've got

346
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,120
Speaker 2: a wick like some torn T shirt stuffed in.

347
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:22,480
Speaker 1: There, rag or something.

348
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,280
Speaker 3: Okay, you light that, you throw it.

349
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Speaker 2: The idea is is that you know, when the glass

350
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,840
Speaker 2: bottle breaks with this flammable fluid and you have the wick,

351
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:34,679
Speaker 2: it catches fire. All that flammable fluid catches fire, and

352
00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 2: of course the structure that it's on or thrown in

353
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Speaker 2: catches fire as well.

354
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Speaker 3: I'm not saying for sure.

355
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Speaker 2: That this is the device that was used, but that

356
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,280
Speaker 2: you know, when you hear this bang, it sounds like,

357
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 2: you know, you have a heavy object that hits the

358
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,560
Speaker 2: roof and then when it starts rolling, well, yeah, that

359
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 2: sounds like something that would be akin to a Molotov cocktail.

360
00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,240
Speaker 2: But there could be, you know, a military raid device

361
00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 2: that is being used to who knows mm.

362
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Speaker 1: And so this is happening. Within a half an hour

363
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 1: of this mysterious woman calling and asking for a stranger's name,

364
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 1: the room is filling up with smoke. I will tell

365
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,679
Speaker 1: you that this of course is a fire of course,

366
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 1: this is scary for the entire family. In some ways,

367
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,679
Speaker 1: I think the fire is the least interesting part of

368
00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 1: this story. So just hang in there, because this is

369
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 1: not all about the fire. I'm telling you. The bedroom

370
00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,520
Speaker 1: is filled with smoke. She and her husband wake up.

371
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 1: George grabs the toddler, who is Sylvia, who's sleeping with them,

372
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Speaker 1: and they rush out of the room. As they move

373
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,320
Speaker 1: through the smoky house, this is a big place, George

374
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 1: and Jenny yell to Marian, who's on the couch. They

375
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 1: also called all the kids upstairs. I mean, so now

376
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: we're talking about I think like seven kids who were upstairs,

377
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,320
Speaker 1: two are downstairs, and ones away with the military. They

378
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 1: call the kids upstairs. But this blaze is going really

379
00:19:55,320 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: quickly and the stairwell going up becomes impassable. Only two

380
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,280
Speaker 1: children can make it out down the stairs, so it's

381
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 1: George Junior and John. Let me go back up to

382
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 1: their ages. George Junior is sixteen and John is twenty three,

383
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 1: and Marian is seventeen. And then they grabbed Sylvia. So

384
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,879
Speaker 1: we are talking about five of the ten kids. Because

385
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 1: Joe's at the military. Five of the ten kids are safe.

386
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 1: George Junior gets out, Jenny, John, Mary and George Senior

387
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,880
Speaker 1: and Sylvia, and there are five kids that are still inside.

388
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: And these are the relatively middle younger ones, right, So

389
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,320
Speaker 1: there's a fifteen year old, a twelve year old, a

390
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 1: nine year old, an eight year old, and a five

391
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,920
Speaker 1: or six year old who are still trapped. Then we've

392
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,399
Speaker 1: got George who's trying to get to them. So he

393
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: busts out a window, cuts himself pretty badly in the process.

394
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 1: He tries to climb back into the house, but there's

395
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,360
Speaker 1: too much smoke and the flames are just going really quickly.

396
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 1: It's immediately clear he's not able to do this. He runs.

397
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: Now here's the conspiracy part. Boy. He runs to the

398
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 1: back of the property. He has a huge ladder that

399
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: is propped up against his house, but he just keeps

400
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,600
Speaker 1: it there. But it's not there and it'll later be

401
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 1: found seventy five feet away from where he always has it.

402
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 1: So the ladder's gone. He runs to his two work trucks.

403
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 1: Remember he's a trucker, hoping he can drive one toward

404
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,240
Speaker 1: the house and park it so that he could get

405
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,000
Speaker 1: up to the kids on the second floor window. Neither

406
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,880
Speaker 1: of these trucks will turn over, which is not normal.

407
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 1: So you have a sad, concerned look on your face

408
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 1: here with all of this.

409
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 2: Well, obviously as a parent, one of the biggest fears

410
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 2: was a fire happening in the middle of the night,

411
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 2: you know, with where the kids are relative to where

412
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,520
Speaker 2: my bedroom was at and having you know, seen the

413
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 2: ramifications of what happens in fires to people, you know,

414
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 2: this is a horrific in terms of the situation with

415
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: the ladder and the two trucks, you know, most certainly

416
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: sounds like whoever set the house on fire wanted to

417
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:08,719
Speaker 2: limit the rescue aspect. That's showing intent. That's showing Okay,

418
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: we want somebody to die, somebody to get burned up.

419
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:18,080
Speaker 2: It's interesting how quickly the flames are spreading. And I

420
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 2: don't have a good sense you know, from ginny hearing

421
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,239
Speaker 2: the bang and the rolling to you know, waking up

422
00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 2: and the house is filled with smoke. I don't have

423
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 2: any sense in terms of the time frame, but we

424
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 2: have that observation of the front door being unlocked, lights

425
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 2: being on, flames are spreading very quickly, you know, did

426
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 2: somebody come in and pour an accelerant throughout the house

427
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 2: or in select locations in order to be able to

428
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 2: causes fire to spread much faster than maybe normal. You know,

429
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeh, but that's I mean, this is sounding.

430
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: It's sounding very sinister up front, for sure.

431
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: Okay, well let me keep going here. So later on

432
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,320
Speaker 1: a witness will say that they have seen a man

433
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: on site during the fire, like a neighbor or something

434
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,120
Speaker 1: during this fire, you know, and it could have been

435
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 1: four in the morning, We don't know. It could have

436
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: been a neighbor who came out and looked. He had

437
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,159
Speaker 1: what's called a block and tackle. Do you know what

438
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 1: that is? A block and tackle? No, I had to

439
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: look it up. It's a mechanism consisting of ropes and

440
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 1: one or more more pulley blocks that you use for

441
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: lifting or pulling heavy objects. And my friend Abbott Taylor

442
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: says that it could be used to remove car engines.

443
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: But we don't know if this guy tampered with Georgia's

444
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: cars or who he is. And you know, I haven't

445
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: seen anything about whether the engines had been removed from

446
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: these two work trucks of his, just that there was

447
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: a guy there who you know, nobody really knew it

448
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: could have been a neighbor they didn't know. I guess

449
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: there's just suspiciousness kind of throughout this entire story.

450
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know we're dealing with vehicles from nineteen forty five,

451
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 2: but I would have a hard time that in the

452
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 2: middle of the night that two engine blocks were removed

453
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,280
Speaker 2: out of these trucks. Yeah, that's that's way over the

454
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 2: top to disable the trucks. There's so many different ways,

455
00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: you know, So that we're further into the investigation, I

456
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: would imagine that there is some some mechanical expert looking

457
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 2: at these trucks to determine why they did not turn over,

458
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 2: you know, were they intentionally sabotaged.

459
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: We eventually are going to learn, and I might as

460
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 1: well tell you this now, because we are now convinced,

461
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: I think you and I that this certainly was somebody

462
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 1: who is sabotaging them. The family's telephone wires were cut.

463
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,479
Speaker 1: They found evidence of that. Marion, who is the fourteen

464
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,399
Speaker 1: or fifteen year old, rushes to a neighbor's house to

465
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: use their phone because their phone is not working. She

466
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: tries to get the operator, but there's no one on

467
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: the line. Because it's Christmas Day, you know, and it's

468
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: one thirty at this point, so it sounds like this

469
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: phone call happened at twelve thirty. Marian heard the thud

470
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: I would bet twelve forty five. She said she was

471
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: just dozing. It probably took her ten or fifteen minutes

472
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 1: to kind of around answer the phone, look around, shut

473
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,639
Speaker 1: everything down, and then the fire I mean it was quick,

474
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: you know, and smoking and blazing by one o'clock. You know,

475
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: Marian is having absolutely no luck finding somebody an operator,

476
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: but luckily George flags down a neighbor who is driving

477
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 1: by during this blaze. He's able to get a hold

478
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: of the fire chief, who's a guy named F. J. Morris.

479
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,680
Speaker 1: Morris is not particularly helpful. This will go also into

480
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 1: our conspiracy, which drive me crazy. The conspiracies are going

481
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: to drive me crazy. He's not helpful. He says he

482
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 1: can't drive the fire truck himself, even though he's the

483
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: fire chief. He has to wait for other crew members

484
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: to arrive. And Morris gets this in motion by starting

485
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: the department's phone tree system, So you know where they're

486
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: getting a hold of all the firefighters, but they won't

487
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 1: get there until eight am. This madness started at one am.

488
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: And so this is disturbing already to George, and his

489
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: mind has already been churning about people out to get

490
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: him to begin with. And this is not helpful that

491
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: the fire chief is not responding to a fire when

492
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: his little children are all trapped up on the upper floor.

493
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I know it's Christmas. But generally, you know,

494
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: for emergency response, this is you know, part of your

495
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: critical staffing. You always maintain a level of critical staff

496
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 2: in order to be able to respond to emergencies. And

497
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 2: for this fire chief, for this fire department to take

498
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,880
Speaker 2: seven hours to respond to a structure fire with occupants,

499
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: I would want to know, well, what is their normal response,

500
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: what is their normal staffing level?

501
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 3: What is their staffing level?

502
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: That night when you said that, the fire chief said,

503
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: I can't drive the truck myself.

504
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 3: Well, that might be very accurate.

505
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what kind of truck this is, you know,

506
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 2: does it require multiple people to drive or to get

507
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: set up?

508
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 3: Who knows?

509
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: But a seven hour delay for this type of fire,

510
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: something's wrong. And it's either just sheer negligence in terms

511
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 2: of ensuring that you had people to respond, or there's

512
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: a purposeful act in terms of delaying the response. That

513
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 2: does sound crazy to me.

514
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 1: It does to me too. I mean, you have to say,

515
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: we've got to throw in there that this is right

516
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: after World War Two, and you know, I think their

517
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 1: supply of local men have been depleted to a certain

518
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 1: extent and Christmas. But at the same time, seven hours

519
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 1: just seems not feasible to me.

520
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 3: Yep, it's absurd as far as I'm concerned.

521
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if this makes sense, So you tell

522
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: me if this makes sense. The Times West Virginia says

523
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: that the house was completely burned down to the ground

524
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: in under forty five minutes. Does that seem if we're

525
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 1: thinking Molotov cocktail? Does that tally with you?

526
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 2: Not with a single point of ignition, you know from

527
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 2: the outside. This is where I think this further supports

528
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: that possibly an accelerant had been distributed inside the house.

529
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 3: That would be my guess.

530
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: Now I am not an expert, you know, this is

531
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: where I would be looking at, you know, my Arson

532
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 2: investigators and saying, hey, you know, and of course they

533
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: would be able to take a look at the remnants

534
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 2: of the house and maybe see that there's multiple points

535
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: of origin to the fire, which is one of the things,

536
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: one of the diagnostic features of well, yes, this is

537
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: a you know, this was a purposeful fire. This is

538
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 2: an arson, even though you're talking nineteen forty five, there

539
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 2: could be visual indicators that an accelerant had been applied

540
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: the way that the fire possibly spread. And this is

541
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: where your arson investigators. They're highly trained and they can see.

542
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: It's so interesting is that, of course, you know, the

543
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,959
Speaker 2: inside of a house after it's been burned, it is

544
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: such a surreal environment. Everything looks different. But these guys

545
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 2: can see. They know what let's say, an old style

546
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 2: TV looks like after it's been melted down down, you know,

547
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: into the carpet, you know, they say, that's a TV.

548
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: This is this, this is this, And I'm going in

549
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 2: going okay, okay, you know, show me where the body is,

550
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 2: you know, that's that's my focus. But forty five minutes

551
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 2: for what sounds like a fairly large house. You know,

552
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: obviously this must be entirely a wood structure. I am

553
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: leaning towards. This seems like it is a very hot

554
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: fire and it's spread very quickly, and this was possibly

555
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:28,719
Speaker 2: aided by an accelerant.

556
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: Let me know, if you think this is going to

557
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: make a difference. I'm pretty sure it does. Police, after

558
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: talking to George, find out that he kept a fifty

559
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: five gallon drum of gasoline in the basement. When'd you

560
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: think that makes a difference.

561
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: Well, obviously that's a huge fuel source for the fire,

562
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 2: but you'd have to get access into the basement. If

563
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: you're the arsonist, either you're going into the basement or

564
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: you are able from the outside to start a fire

565
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 2: down there, and that would indicate you have knowledge that

566
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: that fuel source is down there for the fire. Let's

567
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 2: say the fire starts upstairs, and yes, I mean eventually

568
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: it could make its way down, but generally fires move

569
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 2: faster up than down. Maybe this open door that Jenny saw,

570
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: you know, was an arsenist or a member of a

571
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: team of arsenists that went down into the basement to

572
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 2: take advantage of this massive fuel source. And I would

573
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: imagine you're just not keeping that gasoline in that fifty

574
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: five gallon drum. You are possibly puncturing the side of

575
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 2: it or laying it down on its side with the

576
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 2: little tab open, so this gas is now spreading across

577
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: the floor, and that's when you're throwing your ignition source

578
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: at that fuel, and then that would explain how rapidly

579
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: this fire spread and possibly help speed up the time

580
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 2: frame it took to completely burn this house down.

581
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: Well, let me ask a very cryptic question. Which section

582
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: of a house is better to start a fire in

583
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: with an accelerant to ensure that it burns as fast

584
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: as possible. The lowest point or the highest point?

585
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: Oh well, the lowest point the basement. And you know,

586
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: typically basements because they're built underground. You know, they have

587
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: a retaining wall aspect. Structurally, they're made out of concrete

588
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 2: or cinder block, something that's relatively non flammable. But once

589
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: you get to the first floor, the second floor, whatever,

590
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: that's going to be your wood structure that's above ground.

591
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 2: And so you think about this fire that's fueled by

592
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: this fifty five gallons of gas. You know, once you

593
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: know that fire heats up the ceiling to the basement,

594
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: that's going to be probably wood. Now you start getting

595
00:31:55,960 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: the fire moving very quickly up, you know, and if

596
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 2: you have stairwells where you have oxygen sources, you know,

597
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: the fire likes to.

598
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 3: Go to where it can breathe.

599
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: So yes, I would say that if the point of

600
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 2: origin to this fire was in the basement and the

601
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: arsonists utilize the existing gasoline down there. Then this is

602
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 2: showing pre planning, This is showing intent. This is wanting

603
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: this fire in essence to kill as many people in

604
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 2: this house as possible.

605
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me tell you who is left in

606
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 1: this house that has been burned down to the ground.

607
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: So Maurice, Martha, Lewis, Jinny Junior, and Betty. These kids

608
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: are let's see, Maurice is fourteen or fifteen, Martha's twelve,

609
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,479
Speaker 1: Lewis is nine, Genny is eight. I don't know if

610
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: I said Betty she's five. These are the kids who

611
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: were still trapped this house, they said, burned to the ground.

612
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: Their parents, of course, are completely devastated and trying to

613
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 1: figure out what happened, and they couldn't get to their kids.

614
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: They're sort of tortured over this. And then we get

615
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 1: to trying to figure out in the aftermath of this fire,

616
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: who caused it. This was murder, except there is no

617
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,719
Speaker 1: evidence of any of these kids left. There's no teeth,

618
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 1: not one tiny bit of anything from any of the kids.

619
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: And this is very alarming to the locals.

620
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: Well, I've seen.

621
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: In fact, I just consulted on a case in which,

622
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: again a very hot fire as well as the body

623
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: had been probably within a structure as it burned for

624
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: quite some time, and in essence, there was hardly anything

625
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: left body completely cremated. In essence, it was like this

626
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: congealed mass that was there that was tiny. So on

627
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 2: one hand, I'm wondering if these kids had burned up

628
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 2: so much that now what I would expect to be

629
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 2: relatively naive and ignorant fire investigators would never have recognized

630
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 2: their bodies. On the other hand, were the kids even

631
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: in the house right when the fire happened? Had they

632
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 2: been taken out, kidnapped or something else going on? So

633
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: I think those are the two competing theories I have

634
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 2: right now. I'll leave it at that. I'm sure you

635
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: are going to be giving me a curve ball here

636
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: pretty soon.

637
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's all kinds of stuff happening, and there's evidence

638
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: on both sides of that. So don't conclude they were

639
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: burned up just yet, because we have some experts who

640
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: came in and they said that there was days and

641
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: days of searching. There was at least one firefire who

642
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 1: had extensive experience responding to house fires and doing searches

643
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: like this, who had been great at finding the most

644
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: minute pieces. The quote was, they searched through the ashes

645
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: for the five children's remains. They did not find as

646
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: much as one single tooth. The police said, well, he's

647
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,399
Speaker 1: got that fifty five gallon drum, and of course the

648
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: fire chief immediately says, it burns so hot it was

649
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: an incinerator. Essentially, the fire chief is on board with

650
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 1: all the children died. George and Jenny are not saying

651
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: anything just yet. But tell me if you think that

652
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: this is weird, because this is the beginning of my

653
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: own conspiracy in my head about this story. A few

654
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: days later. So this happens on December twenty fifth. Four

655
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 1: days later, on December twenty ninth, George and Jenny bulldoze

656
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: the property to create a memorial for the kids. Four

657
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: days later, would you not think we need to investigate? Like,

658
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: why would you if this is a I don't get it.

659
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: I don't understand why they would be allowed to do that.

660
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 1: It's weird to me. Four days Yeah.

661
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: Typically with arson investigations, you know, those can take some time,

662
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: and the burned up structure is usually left in place

663
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: for a period of time because the arson investigators need

664
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: sometimes need to kind of continuously come back as they

665
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,720
Speaker 2: find out more information. This does seem quick to decompletely

666
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 2: destroy this crime scene, especially being done by George and Jenny.

667
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: But right now I have no I guess I have

668
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 2: no opinion on this at this point in time, It's

669
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 2: just okay. This does seem odd. It starts to open

670
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: up the door. Though in my head that George's paranoia

671
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 2: and his reporting of these men is that staging. Is

672
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 2: he trying to set something up? And is there any

673
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 2: benefit to him or Jenny to have five of their

674
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 2: kids either disappear or die interesting.

675
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: I will make a note with no judgment towards George

676
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: or you know, saying that this is what I think happened.

677
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: I will say that the kids that were in the

678
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: fire are the youngest, with the exception of the toddler

679
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: that they grabbed. When I read that he had bulldozed

680
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: down the site, what I thought was he so freaked

681
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 1: out and paranoid that he faked their debts sent them off.

682
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 1: He was that scared and he thought maybe he and

683
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 1: Jenny could take care of the toddler. And then the

684
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 1: other ones were old enough. But we have a lot more.

685
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I have several more pages of stuff to

686
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: get through. There's a lot more happening with this. You know,

687
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: this fire happens on Christmas Day. Four days later they

688
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: bulldozed down the rest of the house. Then the next

689
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: day after that, the corner issues at death certificates based

690
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: on the corner's inquest, which was that it was an accident,

691
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 1: the result of faulty wiring.

692
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 3: From those fuseboxes.

693
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is weird because the utility company had come

694
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: out and said everything is fine. Now this is where

695
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: I go back to being confused, because at first I

696
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: was thinking George is doing weird stuff. But George and

697
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: Jenny are sounding alarms about this from now until the

698
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: end of time. They're saying, we think that something nefarious

699
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: was happening. We don't think this was an accident. This

700
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: is not bad wiring, and most of the people in

701
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: the town don't think it was bad wiring. They said

702
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: that Ginny had seen these lights on. You know, they're

703
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 1: explaining the power company had come out. It just doesn't

704
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: make any sense that it was an electrical wire malfunction.

705
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: They also said, you know, of course, this is when

706
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: we found out that their telephone wires had been cut

707
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 1: and that the latter had been moved. So eventually it's

708
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: determined that the telephone wires were cut by a man

709
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: named Lonnie Johnson, who happened to be robbing the property

710
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 1: of tools because he was a trucker. You know, George

711
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 1: had all of these tools the night the fire began.

712
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 1: He pled guilty to theft, and of course the timing

713
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: is really suspicious, but Lonnie is adamant he didn't have

714
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: anything to do with the fire at all. And you know,

715
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: we don't know if this is the guy who had

716
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 1: the block and tackle I told you about. But you know,

717
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: essentially the police are not a him. He's never arrested.

718
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: He's arrested for theft. He confessed to that that there's

719
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 1: nothing else and he's not somebody who's been making a threat,

720
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 1: and you know, he's just a thief essentially.

721
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 2: Well, I know, coincidences can happen, but Lonnie is at

722
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 2: the house cutting the telephone lines the night that fire

723
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: breaks out.

724
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 3: He's a trucker.

725
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: You have two trucks that have been disabled somehow, some way, right,

726
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 2: did they find any stolen property with Lonnie to be

727
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: able to verify that he did in fact steal something.

728
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: I do think they found some tools, yes on him.

729
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: He was kind of known as the local like thief,

730
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: you know, small town thief. And actually it kind of

731
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 1: makes sense. I mean, you're guaranteed people were going to

732
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: be in bed Christmas Eve or Christmas Day. I know,

733
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: it's weird and there are coincidences. They don't think there's

734
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: enough there to charge him with anything, but that doesn't

735
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 1: mean he wasn't involved certainly.

736
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, though one person could be involved in

737
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: the arson to think about, Okay, the ladder's been moved,

738
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: two trucks disabled, possibly an intrusion into the house, as

739
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 2: well as maybe an incentiary device being thrown on top

740
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: of the house.

741
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 3: Seems like it's more than one person doing this.

742
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: Well, likely a woman at least as part of the conspiracy,

743
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: the woman who called, And that would make sense if

744
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,000
Speaker 1: this is politically motivated. Let me give you some more information.

745
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,760
Speaker 1: Three months after the tragedy, they're no closer to figuring

746
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: out what happened. George and Jenny are poking around the

747
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,760
Speaker 1: property and they find something which is a dark green

748
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: hard rubber object, and according to the Smithsonian magazine, who

749
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: has covered this story, George thinks it looks like a

750
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 1: military style napalm pineapple bomb, and they wonder, of course,

751
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: is this the device that Genny heard banging and then

752
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: rolling off of the roof that night. I will tell you, Paul,

753
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,279
Speaker 1: I find it hard to believe that nobody found this

754
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: before that. I mean, you've got somebody looking for teeth

755
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: and they didn't find this thing. And we're at the

756
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: end of World War two and people don't know that

757
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: this looks like a pineapple bomb.

758
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 2: No, this is where your fire investigators are. Some investigators

759
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: they would recognize that.

760
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what happened?

761
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 2: Well, if if that was truly missed in the search,

762
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: then that tells me that they easily would have missed

763
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: these kids as remains.

764
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 3: You know, they did not search very good.

765
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: I don't buy this, but I don't know why that

766
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 1: they just happened to come across this with all of

767
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: these people trapesing across this property, and you have to

768
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 1: know they're luki lose going over there too after sundown.

769
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 1: I mean, just this is the freakiest thing that's really

770
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 1: happened in this area. I'm not saying they planted it.

771
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: I just think it's weird. Do you have any idea

772
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: how big this would have been. It's not tiny, right,

773
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,320
Speaker 1: it would have been fist sized maybe.

774
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: I don't know.

775
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: If it's something that's handheld and thrown, it wouldn't have

776
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: been very big.

777
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna look it up. Okay, here's the length. If

778
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,440
Speaker 1: this is the same same thing, and that it probably is,

779
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: it's about four inches long, diameter is almost three inches,

780
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:08,959
Speaker 1: weight is about not even two pounds.

781
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this sounds like your handheld grenade type

782
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 2: of device, but its intent is to start a fire.

783
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: It's an incendiary device. This is a type of evidence

784
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 2: that fire investigators are some investigators are looking for, you know,

785
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 2: when they are looking at a case like this, and

786
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 2: so to miss something like that again, it just it

787
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: underscores that this was not a very well searched arson.

788
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: Scene or somebody planted that for some reason. And you

789
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,240
Speaker 1: have to think it's close to the house. If Genny's

790
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: right and you hear it rolling off the roof, it's

791
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: going to be landing right there, right.

792
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

793
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: Well, if it's planted after the fact, then that is

794
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 2: a form of staging, Yeah, you know, and why plant

795
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 2: this military device to try to make it think that

796
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 2: it was somebody that's a soldier? You know, that seems

797
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 2: odd to me. I'm not sure what benefit there would

798
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: be in this scenario to plant something like that.

799
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about people running experiments they probably shouldn't

800
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,359
Speaker 1: be running. Jenny is beside herself over these kids. She

801
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: starts running her own experiments to test the theory that

802
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: a children might have been completely incinerated. She starts burning

803
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: animal bones to see what's left after the fire, and

804
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: Abbott Kaylor, my friend, says that each time she was

805
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: left with a heap of charred bones. She knew that

806
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: the remnants of various household appliances had been found in

807
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: the burned out basement that were still totally identifiable, and

808
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 1: an employee at at crematorium that she talked to said

809
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 1: that bones remain after the bodies are burned for two

810
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: hours at two thousand degrees, and this house was destroyed

811
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: in forty five minutes. So you know, there should have

812
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: been stuff, is what everybody's pointed. With five kids, there

813
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: should have been stuff.

814
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm unconvinced, Okay, Jenny's experiments are faulty completely,

815
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: you know, I know, you know, you start talking about

816
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 2: like a crematorium, Well, that's a static environment. You're just

817
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 2: dealing with the heat that the body is being subjected

818
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 2: to when you were dealing with a structural fire. And

819
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 2: there's a lot of variables, you know, and I can't

820
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 2: speak to how much hotter. You know, the house fire

821
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 2: in this situation would be than a crematorium or less

822
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 2: than a crematorium.

823
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 3: But you think about a house.

824
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: You got objects that are now collapsing, you have the

825
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,439
Speaker 2: house itself collapsing. You know, if you have these even

826
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: if there's some long bones, some recognizable long bones from

827
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: the children, there's mechanical forces that are possibly being applied

828
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 2: that is going to disrupt all of that. I would

829
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: think that remnants from some of the kids would have

830
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: been able to persist after this fire. I do think

831
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,879
Speaker 2: it's possible that these children's remains were burned up to

832
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:04,799
Speaker 2: an extent where they would have been unrecognizable, possibly congealed

833
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 2: with other substances that had melted inside the house. And

834
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 2: people that were investigating this fire may not have the

835
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: expertise to have recognized the child's remains.

836
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 1: All right, Well, let's keep going because now we're coming

837
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 1: to your favorite part, the maddening world of witnesses who

838
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 1: are spotting people and not spotting people. It's a big smile, Okay,

839
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: George and Jenny are going out of their minds because

840
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: the amount of witness statements coming in. So we have

841
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 1: one person who says that they saw a tiny face

842
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: among the flames in an upstairs window, which of course

843
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 1: supports the idea that the kids died in the fire.

844
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: But someone else says that they saw the kids in

845
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: a car passing by while the fire was still burning.

846
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: And then in the days and weeks that followed, there

847
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: are more tips. Someone in Charleston, West Virginia reported that

848
00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: the four youngest of the missing children were with four

849
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: Italians speaking. It's a week after the fire. And then

850
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:07,200
Speaker 1: a motel employee says that the missing kids were just

851
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: hours after the fire, like right around you know, in

852
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: between Charleston and Fayetteville. So people are seeing these kids,

853
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: specifically four or five kids here. So what do you

854
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: think about that? I mean, we've talked about witnesses.

855
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: Before, well, and I imagine this is a fairly high

856
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: profile case, right mm. Hmmm, yeah, you know, it's it's

857
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 2: so hard to put a lot of credibility on these

858
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 2: witness statements. Can't dismiss them either, you know. That's that's

859
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 2: probably the maddening aspect of this aspect of the investigation.

860
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 2: Maybe these people are telling the truth. These witnesses are

861
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 2: telling the truth, but they didn't interpret what they were seeing, right,

862
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,840
Speaker 2: These were just other kids out there. Parents are taking

863
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 2: them home from Grandma's house to go and wake up

864
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:58,840
Speaker 2: in the morning at their own house, you know, for

865
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 2: Christmas morning, or you know, they truly saw these victims.

866
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 2: And then now why these particular kids are purposely selected

867
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 2: to have been removed from the house. You know, what

868
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: was at something done with the knowledge of George and Jenny.

869
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: Was just something that was done to torment George and Jenny.

870
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 2: I mean, who knows, you know at this point. You know,

871
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: right now, you know the two competing theories either the

872
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 2: kids burned up in the fire or the kids were

873
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 2: abducted or given away. I don't know if you can

874
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 2: resolve those two competing theories with the information right now.

875
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: So George hired a private investigator named C. C. Tinsley,

876
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,080
Speaker 1: and Tinsley finds out from a Fayetteville minister that the

877
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: fire chief, remember him F. J. Morris, the guy who

878
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 1: delayed coming to the fire, had claimed to have found

879
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: a human heart among the fire debris, And obviously this

880
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: is freaking out George and Jenny. They approached the fire

881
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: chief and said, what what are you talking about? And

882
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 1: the chief didn't have a good answer, but he says,

883
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: you know, I'll kind of show you this box that

884
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: I found. And they unbury this box because I guess

885
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: he had buried it again. And it turned out that

886
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: it was beef liver that he had buried himself. And

887
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 1: his claim essentially was that he wanted to give the

888
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: family some kind of closure like they had definitely died

889
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,240
Speaker 1: in this fire. It was. It's a bizarre circumstance and rumor,

890
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: but all it means to me is that the fire

891
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 1: chief can't be trusted for anything, including putting out a

892
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: fire effectively.

893
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: No, that's true, you know, and I think you just

894
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: brought something to light if you will, talk about how

895
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 2: this house burned down in forty five minutes, but that

896
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 2: fire smoldered, the embers smoldered much longer. I mean, it

897
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: was seven hours before the fire department shows up.

898
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 3: Right.

899
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 2: This further puts in my brain the fact that it

900
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 2: is possible that the kids remains were so decimated by

901
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 2: this fire that they just were unrecognizable.

902
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 1: Well, let's go on, there's more stuff. Of course, turns

903
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: out that the same insurance salesman who had threatened George,

904
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 1: remember your goddamn house is going to go up in

905
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: smoke and your children are going to be destroyed. Remember him,

906
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,400
Speaker 1: He's never been arrested for it. Of course, he said

907
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: he didn't mean anything when I said it. This guy, Paul,

908
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: was a member of the Corner Stury who determined it

909
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: was an accidental death due to electrical wiring. Welcome to

910
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: a small town. So listen. Now things get a little sciencey.

911
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: So I definitely need your help because the story is

912
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: not over in nineteen forty nine, So this happens in

913
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 1: forty five. In nineteen forty nine, there's a DC pathologist

914
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,640
Speaker 1: named Oscar B. Hunter, and he conducts a brand new

915
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: search of the property at George and Jenny's request. He

916
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: unearths a partly burned dictionary that had been kept in

917
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: the children's room. He also finds small pieces of human vertebrae.

918
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: So you're telling me that a dictionary doesn't burn all

919
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: the way, but these kids are burned. I don't know.

920
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 2: I can just say, and it's anecdotal. Fire does weird things. Yeah,

921
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, So as odd as that might seem, I'm

922
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 2: not surprised by that. I've seen that type of thing

923
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 2: where things all around something is just completely charred and burned.

924
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 2: And then you have some you know, some object that

925
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 2: you would think would have gone up too, and it's

926
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 2: right there, the human vertebrae. I mean the fact that

927
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,920
Speaker 2: you have a pathologists identifying this as a small human vertebrae,

928
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: which sounds consistent with child size.

929
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 3: You know.

930
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: Of course, in this day and age, we could potentially

931
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 2: get DNA off of that vertebrae to show it's one

932
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: of the kids.

933
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,319
Speaker 1: Okay, well it's with the Smithsonian, I'm presuming. Let me

934
00:50:45,320 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: tell you the interesting findings here. Number one. I'm going

935
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 1: to start with the fact that the Smithsonian experts say

936
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: this has not been exposed to fire. They send it

937
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: to the Smithsonian. This is in nineteen forty nine. They

938
00:50:57,320 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 1: determined that this is these are quotes. This is so

939
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: sign see the human bones consist of four lumbar vertebrae

940
00:51:03,560 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: belonging to one individual. Since the transverse recesses are fused,

941
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 1: the age of this individual at death should have been

942
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 1: sixteen or seventeen years. The top age limit would have

943
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: been about twenty two, since the CenTra, which normally fuse

944
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 1: at twenty three, are still unfused. On this basis, the

945
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: bones show greater skeletal maturation than one would expect for

946
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: a fourteen year old boy who is the oldest one.

947
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:35,200
Speaker 1: It is, however, possible, although not probable, that for a

948
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: boy fourteen and a half years old to show sixteen

949
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: to seventeen maturation. And then they say it is not

950
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: being exposed to fire. And the report the experts say,

951
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,160
Speaker 1: and this is a lot of people at the Smithsonian,

952
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: they say, it is very strange that no other bones

953
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: were found in the allegedly careful excavation of the basement

954
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: of the house, and that if the house reportedly burned

955
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 1: for only half an hour or so, one would expect

956
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,879
Speaker 1: the full skeletons of the five children rather than only

957
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: four vertebrae. And they don't even think this is of

958
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:05,479
Speaker 1: a kid.

959
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 2: Well, there's I mean, there's there's so many variables we're

960
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 2: talking about here, You're talking about four years of time

961
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 2: after the fire, after the house was bulldozed, and then

962
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:19,319
Speaker 2: they find this vertebrae from I would say, like, what

963
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: like a late teenage boy that has that wasn't exposed

964
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 2: to the fire, And at this point in time we

965
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: don't know whose vertebrae this is. You know, I'm just

966
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 2: now trying to wrap my head around, Well, what can

967
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 2: be said because of the you know, do you have

968
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 2: a completely unrelated dead body that is at this property

969
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 2: that was there either before or after the fire, but

970
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 2: wasn't in essence burned up in the fire. Is this

971
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 2: body even related to the family. I mean, there's too

972
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: many unknowns to draw any type of conclusion. It's just

973
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,200
Speaker 2: that you have a crime scene in which five kids

974
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: disappeared from them, and now you find vertebrae. So I

975
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 2: think if you draw the assumption, well it's one of

976
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 2: the kids, I think that's a faulty assumption.

977
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:12,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, And it gets more confusing because two things. One,

978
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian report says that the experts believe that when

979
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 1: they talked to George and Jenny and they said this

980
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: was the basement area, this is kind of where you

981
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: were putting up a memorial where this was found. What

982
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: did you do to fill in some of the space here?

983
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: And they said, well, we used backfill like dirt. The

984
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: private investigator, there's one article that the researcher found. There's

985
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: a private investigator that they hired said that he was

986
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 1: essentially able to trace this vertebrae back to a body

987
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,879
Speaker 1: at Mount Hope, West Virginia. The idea was that they

988
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: used dirt kind of close to this grave site.

989
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 3: From the cemetery.

990
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that it was transferred in when they built this memorial.

991
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 1: I don't even know what the memorial looks like. So

992
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: the Smithsonian said, that's to them, that's the only logical

993
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: thing here. Eras that whatever dirt was used had body parts. Yeah,

994
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: I think in this area, I mean, people were buried

995
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: all over the place here, So I thought that was

996
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,759
Speaker 1: really interesting, not conclusive.

997
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a plausible explanation, you know for sure. Yeah,

998
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 2: it sounds like this. You know, based on the anthropological

999
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 2: assessment that expert is able to determine a lot that

1000
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: these vertebrae are in good shape. So that's where kind

1001
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:29,400
Speaker 2: of to my point earlier to assume that these vertebrae

1002
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,959
Speaker 2: were present at the time of the fire. It could

1003
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 2: have been there before, just not exposed to the fire

1004
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 2: or after. In this scenario, it's come after and it's

1005
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: in essence. It's just, you know, this is contamination of

1006
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 2: the scene. Four years later, you do have that happen.

1007
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:51,440
Speaker 1: The FBI is rocked, of course by the Smithsonian's report

1008
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: and gets drawn into it and then gets nowhere and

1009
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: drops it. And the surviving members of the family become

1010
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: convinced that the kids did survive, and somebody took him

1011
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: from the house, and they chase leads and they follow

1012
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: up on tips, and you know, these things always peter out.

1013
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 1: In sixty eight, so this is twenty three years later,

1014
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: the family gets a photograph of a man in the mail.

1015
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: On the back of the photograph, somebody has written Lewis

1016
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: Sawdu and then it says, I love brother Frankie little boys,

1017
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 1: and that's got some numbers or thirty five A nine zero, one, three,

1018
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: two or thirty five. So one of the boys who

1019
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 1: died was named Lewis. The family is convinced that this

1020
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 1: is Lewis, but they never find out how to contact

1021
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,000
Speaker 1: the sender or the man in the photograph. They hand

1022
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:44,839
Speaker 1: it over to investigators, this photo, and they wonder what

1023
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 1: the heck the stream of numbers and letters is. They

1024
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 1: never decipher it. You know, Lewis doesn't have a brother

1025
00:55:50,920 --> 00:55:54,480
Speaker 1: named Frank, but Jinny did have a brother named Frank.

1026
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 1: The Huffington Post, of course, years years years later, reports

1027
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,800
Speaker 1: that at some point one of the family members accused

1028
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: her brother, Jenny's brother, of kidnapping the children and raising

1029
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,279
Speaker 1: them himself in Florida. But we don't know what the

1030
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: motive is. There's nothing ever comes of that. So it's just,

1031
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it is unreal what this family has gone through.

1032
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, but this sounds kind of goofy to me.

1033
00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 2: So you have one of the kids, now twenty three

1034
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 2: years later, is reaching out with a photo of himself

1035
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 2: saying he loved Frankie, one of the other kids that's missing,

1036
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,880
Speaker 2: and then there's this weird series of numbers. Yeah, why

1037
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: would Lewis be so cryptic at this point? You know,

1038
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 2: as now as an adult, I mean, Lewis was in

1039
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 2: early teens at the time of the fire.

1040
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no brother Frank either. Lewis would have

1041
00:56:49,600 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: been nine, he would have been nine during this.

1042
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 2: Okay, so he's now in his early thirties at the

1043
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: time this photo is sent. You know, this sounds more like,

1044
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 2: you know, you have the eyes that escape from Alcatraz.

1045
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 2: And then people are sending in photos of these guys,

1046
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 2: you know, saying, hey, here I am living my life,

1047
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 2: and its is like, no, you know, this is where

1048
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 2: you have your your goofballs and your nut jobs out

1049
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 2: there that are just trying to put themselves into this investigation.

1050
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 2: You know, get a thrill out of the fact that

1051
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 2: maybe they get something in the headlines.

1052
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 3: I'm not buying this photo at all. If these kids were.

1053
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 2: Abducted by family and raised, assuming that they were allowed

1054
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 2: to you know, grow up and start their own families

1055
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 2: and everything else.

1056
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 3: You know.

1057
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 2: I think if I were to get involved in this

1058
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 2: case today, if I had DNA from you know, the

1059
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: other kids or their descendants, I'd be looking to see

1060
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 2: if I could find siblings or you know, people at

1061
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 2: the cousin level who pursued genealogy, you know, because then

1062
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 2: it would say, oh, yeah, they did you know, they survived,

1063
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,920
Speaker 2: you know, they have their offspring, who have their offspring

1064
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: several generations removed since nineteen forty five, it's not that

1065
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:11,040
Speaker 2: that far back in time. That would be the one

1066
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:13,960
Speaker 2: avenue I think I would pursue to try to answer

1067
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 2: this question.

1068
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 3: You know, the vertebrae.

1069
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 2: I kind of buy the Smithsonian's assessment, but I think

1070
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: we could do snip testing on that and figure out

1071
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 2: who's vertebrae that was. But potentially, you know, so, yeah,

1072
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,439
Speaker 2: at least with what you're telling me, the missing five

1073
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:35,080
Speaker 2: kids are still the big mystery in this case, and

1074
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,440
Speaker 2: I think there are ways even what is that now,

1075
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 2: that's fifty five, I mean you're talking eighty years later.

1076
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's ways we could possibly solve

1077
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 2: this mystery.

1078
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: I would love that. Ultimately, George and Jenny die not

1079
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,640
Speaker 1: knowing what happened. They famously put up a billboard offering

1080
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars and there's a really sad photo that

1081
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: will go on social media of the two of them,

1082
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: and they're very old, and the billboard was up for decades.

1083
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: Finally the family took it down after Ginny died, but

1084
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 1: they never came up with anything. They never came up

1085
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: with anything conclusive, but the children and the grandchildren, the

1086
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: ones who survived and then their children had continued to

1087
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:18,520
Speaker 1: search and try, and that's the end of this Christmas mystery.

1088
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 1: You know what happened to these children? And we really

1089
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 1: do always seem to come back. Paul, I feel like

1090
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: to how competent are our investigators at the time. How

1091
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: much do you trust them? Do we trust that they

1092
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: did a thorough search? If we do, then something happened

1093
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: other than maybe them being burned up or you know,

1094
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,439
Speaker 1: they got destroyed and misinterpreted. I don't know. I mean,

1095
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, I just now we can always come back

1096
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: to how much easier we haven't now than they did

1097
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five. Gosh, well, you know.

1098
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 2: There's still incompetence and negligence that happens in investigations.

1099
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 3: In this case. I mean, you just take a look.

1100
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:03,200
Speaker 2: At the seventh hour delay by the fire department to respond,

1101
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:06,840
Speaker 2: you know, I think that that's, you know, really underscores

1102
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 2: there was a lack of competence and maybe even something

1103
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 2: more sinister going on. Finding the pineapple incendiary device. I

1104
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,680
Speaker 2: forget exactly what it was called, but that's being found

1105
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:27,680
Speaker 2: days later, you know. It just to me there was

1106
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 2: an incomplete search of this arson scene from the very beginning,

1107
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 2: and I just do not have confidence that they would

1108
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 2: have found these kids remains there, so I leaned towards

1109
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,080
Speaker 2: you know, the kids were killed in the fire, and

1110
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 2: they are likely their remains are still at that location,

1111
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 2: but from the mechanical disruption from the house fire and

1112
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 2: everything going on, and then the bulldozing and everything else,

1113
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 2: I think it'd be very tough to find anything after.

1114
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: Well, this is not the traditional Christmas story that I enjoy,

1115
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 1: but this was man an important story. I feel like,

1116
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: I really, I feel like I learned a lot off

1117
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: of this story. And we need a couple of weeks

1118
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: off from this because this is tough. Losing kids is tough.

1119
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: When we talk about that, it's really hard. But we

1120
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: need a couple of weeks off and we're going to

1121
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: hopefully have good holidays and enjoy our loved ones and

1122
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: be grateful for what we have.

1123
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 2: Well that sounds good, And like I said, I will

1124
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:36,400
Speaker 2: be on a beach in Waikiki and I will raise

1125
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 2: a glass of bourbon thinking about you and looking forward

1126
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: to when we get back together.

1127
01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: You're gonna drink bourbon in Hawaii? Can't What about my tie?

1128
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: Aren't you gonna expand your horizons a little bit? Paul, Oh,

1129
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 1: come on, no reason to okay, no, no expanded horizons here. Okay,

1130
01:01:56,520 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: We'll have a wonderful winter break and we will see

1131
01:01:59,160 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 1: you in a couple of.

1132
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 3: Weeks, all right, you two.

1133
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: Kate, this has been an exactly right production for.

1134
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,160
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

1135
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones Sources.

1136
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Amrosi.

1137
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1138
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1139
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,240
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1140
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1141
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,920
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

1142
01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1143
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: Baried Bones pod.

1144
01:02:38,240 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1145
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1146
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1147
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:49,479
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold

1148
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now