WEBVTT - Ryan Chambers 0:00:08.245 --> 0:00:13.965 School of Humans. It's August twenty fourth, two thousand and five. 0:00:14.805 --> 0:00:19.525 It's sweltering hot in India. Mosquitoes swarm even by the 0:00:19.565 --> 0:00:23.205 banks of the River Ganges and the holy city of Raishikesh. 0:00:24.245 --> 0:00:27.685 The sun rises over the river, casting a shadow on 0:00:27.925 --> 0:00:32.245 ed nikitin Ashram. The gates of the Ashram open slowly. 0:00:33.285 --> 0:00:37.805 Out walks a boy, brown hair, pins of gaze. He's 0:00:37.845 --> 0:00:40.685 not wearing a shirt or shoes and looks out of 0:00:40.685 --> 0:00:45.805 place next to the elaborate Indian architecture. Barefoot, he wanders 0:00:45.845 --> 0:00:49.845 down the road away from the Ashram. He's headed somewhere 0:00:50.805 --> 0:00:54.645 where we'll never know. This will be the last sighting 0:00:54.685 --> 0:00:57.765 of Ryan Chambers, but it won't be the last time 0:00:57.805 --> 0:01:01.765 you'll hear his name. Ryan Chambers is the first poster 0:01:01.925 --> 0:01:06.925 child of India syndrome, a controversial psychosis that presumably affects 0:01:06.925 --> 0:01:12.805 Westerners confronted by the culture shock, spiritual influence, and destabilizing 0:01:12.925 --> 0:01:17.405 dangers of India. But was it enlightenment Ryan was seeking 0:01:17.765 --> 0:01:23.205 that ultimately set him astray. A child's death is agony 0:01:23.325 --> 0:01:26.885 for any parent, but to have a child disappear without 0:01:26.885 --> 0:01:32.005 a trace as a whole different kind of torture. Diane Chambers, 0:01:32.125 --> 0:01:34.605 the mother of the missing twenty one year old Australian 0:01:34.845 --> 0:01:38.365 Ryan Chambers, shares a term for this kind of loss, 0:01:39.805 --> 0:01:43.485 ambiguous loss. It's a loss but you don't know whether 0:01:43.525 --> 0:01:46.565 it's a permanent loss or a part time loss, or 0:01:46.885 --> 0:01:49.565 whether you've lost them forever or you haven't, or you know, 0:01:49.685 --> 0:01:52.125 like it's just or what is the loss? There's no 0:01:52.245 --> 0:01:57.365 evidence of the loss. There is no evidence. Ryan's body 0:01:57.405 --> 0:02:00.845 has never been found, and his having disappeared in India 0:02:01.285 --> 0:02:05.005 adds an additional layer of stress to the situation, which 0:02:05.045 --> 0:02:08.165 was armed when Diane reported Ryan missing to the Federal 0:02:08.205 --> 0:02:11.885 police and she was taking all the details and she said, 0:02:11.885 --> 0:02:14.045 oh a lot. Where did he go missing? And I 0:02:14.085 --> 0:02:17.845 said in India? She said, oh India, of all places, 0:02:17.925 --> 0:02:22.005 not India. And I feel like, so I don't need 0:02:22.085 --> 0:02:24.485 to hear that. I know it's hard enough as it is. 0:02:24.565 --> 0:02:28.605 I don't need you confirming it for me. India is 0:02:28.725 --> 0:02:33.165 difficult to navigate. It's dense, crowded, there's a language and 0:02:33.165 --> 0:02:37.365 culture barrier, and it just operates under a different set 0:02:37.405 --> 0:02:42.245 of rules than the West. As Aaron, Ryan's brother points out, 0:02:42.725 --> 0:02:46.005 it's a culture shock. Even if you're prepared for it. 0:02:46.885 --> 0:02:48.405 The thing I was say from the moment I stepped 0:02:48.405 --> 0:02:52.085 off the plane, it's just the sensory oakload. There is noise, 0:02:52.445 --> 0:02:56.685 there is rubbish, There are beggars, There are cows in 0:02:56.685 --> 0:02:59.325 the middle of the street eating like standing on mounds 0:02:59.325 --> 0:03:03.445 of rubbish, eating plastic bags. Cars everywhere, people coming up 0:03:03.485 --> 0:03:06.805 to you that you don't know if friendly, who want 0:03:06.805 --> 0:03:10.925 to rub you. As we discussed in the last episode, 0:03:11.285 --> 0:03:14.965 this culture shock or sensory overload, as Aaron puts, it 0:03:15.565 --> 0:03:18.445 had an effect on Ryan, an effect that could have 0:03:18.485 --> 0:03:21.285 pushed him over the edge. Ryan's is one of the 0:03:21.325 --> 0:03:24.845 many stories we'll share of people who were presumably seeking 0:03:24.845 --> 0:03:29.925 a spiritual edge in India and then disappeared. But first 0:03:30.205 --> 0:03:35.605 let's further investigate the syndrome associated with these tragedies India syndrome. 0:03:36.325 --> 0:03:39.605 Is it a myth or a legitimate risk. We spoke 0:03:39.645 --> 0:03:43.325 to a vetted psychiatrist and Delhi to find out. To 0:03:43.445 --> 0:03:47.405 be honest, I have not come across the doom at all. 0:03:48.245 --> 0:03:53.085 Probably was used by the French psychiatrist register or This 0:03:53.165 --> 0:03:56.605 is doctor Harshett. He's worked as a psychiatrist for the 0:03:56.645 --> 0:04:00.885 past ten years and hospitals in Bangalore, Racia, Cash where 0:04:00.965 --> 0:04:04.805 Ryan went missing, and Delhi. And like he said, he's 0:04:04.885 --> 0:04:08.405 not come across the tremendous syndrome at all. He attributes 0:04:08.485 --> 0:04:11.565 the term to reach us a rome. Different psychiatrist we 0:04:11.605 --> 0:04:15.725 talked about last episode who coined the term. It's eight 0:04:15.765 --> 0:04:19.005 thirty pm in Delhi. Doctor Harschet is taking a break 0:04:19.045 --> 0:04:22.005 from his busy shift to speak with me. His voice 0:04:22.045 --> 0:04:24.805 bounces off the white tiles of a sterile horse program. 0:04:25.245 --> 0:04:27.885 It is a miss number to be said that it's 0:04:28.005 --> 0:04:32.085 India syndrome. I would rather say it is a syndrome 0:04:32.125 --> 0:04:38.045 of illnesses which are seen in migrants or tourists. Migration 0:04:38.325 --> 0:04:42.005 as such is known to cause a lot of stress 0:04:42.005 --> 0:04:44.765 on people. If you look, if you look into data, 0:04:45.485 --> 0:04:48.165 be it in America or in the Europe, you would 0:04:48.205 --> 0:04:53.245 see that migrant population have higher number of mental illnesses 0:04:54.525 --> 0:05:00.205 compared to their home state population. Let's say someone from 0:05:00.245 --> 0:05:03.325 Africa comes to us, he may have a higher chance 0:05:03.365 --> 0:05:08.725 of mental illness compared to his own population in Africa. 0:05:08.885 --> 0:05:11.485 It is nothing to do with his genetics. It is 0:05:11.525 --> 0:05:16.405 due to the stress of the migration. So the other 0:05:16.445 --> 0:05:19.005 thing is the cultural shock they receive when they come 0:05:19.005 --> 0:05:23.925 to that place. So doctor Harschett does believe it's possible 0:05:23.965 --> 0:05:27.005 for foreigners to develop a psychosis due to travel and 0:05:27.125 --> 0:05:32.965 culture shock. But labeling at India syndrome isn't accurate, So 0:05:33.045 --> 0:05:37.565 why has this term gone on? The term is quite catchy, 0:05:37.765 --> 0:05:41.365 so people would obviously would love to hold on to it. 0:05:41.365 --> 0:05:45.045 It is something like Stockholm syndrome. Stockholm syndrome as such 0:05:45.205 --> 0:05:49.685 is about someone who is having post traumatic stress disorder, 0:05:50.245 --> 0:05:53.925 but then if you look at it, it's completely taken 0:05:53.925 --> 0:05:57.765 off by that name. Stockholm syndrome was a term first 0:05:57.885 --> 0:06:01.205 used by the media in nineteen seventy three when four 0:06:01.285 --> 0:06:04.925 hostages who were taken during a bank robbery in Stockholm, Sweden, 0:06:05.565 --> 0:06:09.765 defended their captors, and though the syndrome is rare, according 0:06:09.765 --> 0:06:13.085 to the FBI, about five percent of hostage victims show 0:06:13.125 --> 0:06:17.085 evidence of Stockholm syndrome. It's still featured in police hostage 0:06:17.125 --> 0:06:21.845 negotiation courses, but as one chief negotiator said, I would 0:06:21.885 --> 0:06:25.685 be hard pressed to say that Stockholm syndrome exists. Sometimes 0:06:25.685 --> 0:06:28.685 in the field of psychology, people are looking for cause 0:06:28.725 --> 0:06:32.965 and effect when it isn't there. But Stockholm syndrome is 0:06:33.005 --> 0:06:35.845 still a widely used term in the media just like 0:06:35.885 --> 0:06:39.965 India syndrome. See, any article to be published needs to 0:06:40.085 --> 0:06:45.205 have some eye candy, needs to have some eye candy. 0:06:45.325 --> 0:06:49.685 So you have something which is sense nationalizing that it's 0:06:49.805 --> 0:06:52.525 India as such has been known as the land of 0:06:52.605 --> 0:06:57.045 mystics and mysteries in the West. So when you put 0:06:57.085 --> 0:07:01.885 something like India syndrome, obviously you are catching eyeballs. He's right. 0:07:02.685 --> 0:07:06.565 As an American, articles and books that featured the phenomenon 0:07:06.845 --> 0:07:10.685 affiliated with people who go missing in India definitely caught 0:07:10.725 --> 0:07:13.605 my attention. But I've also gotten to know the families 0:07:13.605 --> 0:07:17.445 of those missing people. And in Ryan Chamber's case, it's 0:07:17.485 --> 0:07:20.485 just inaccurate to assume a syndrome had anything to do 0:07:20.605 --> 0:07:23.565 with his disappearance. He woke up in a train station 0:07:23.565 --> 0:07:25.365 in India, had no idea who he was, where he 0:07:25.525 --> 0:07:29.445 was when he was That's Aaron Chambers, Ryan's brother, And no, 0:07:29.685 --> 0:07:33.405 unfortunately he's not talking about finding Ryan. He's explaining and 0:07:33.525 --> 0:07:37.205 experienced journalist David McClean had in two thousand and two 0:07:37.205 --> 0:07:39.685 in India that he shared on an episode of This 0:07:39.725 --> 0:07:43.805 American Life. According to McClean, he woke up on a 0:07:43.845 --> 0:07:47.925 trained platform in India with no idea of who he was, 0:07:48.325 --> 0:07:52.365 no passport, no money, no identity. He was taken to 0:07:52.445 --> 0:07:55.805 a mental hospital by police for he started to hallucinate 0:07:55.925 --> 0:07:59.765 so severely he had to be tied down. After hearing 0:07:59.805 --> 0:08:05.685 about mcclean's experience, Ryan's bizarre behavior before his disappearance a 0:08:05.725 --> 0:08:08.805 lot more sense tod Aaron. His mind would be basically 0:08:08.805 --> 0:08:14.005 wiped and somehow got in contact with people he knew 0:08:14.045 --> 0:08:16.245 and then his family and they got him home and 0:08:16.245 --> 0:08:19.245 it was his story about him like that journey in 0:08:19.325 --> 0:08:23.285 him rebuilding his life, and he basically puts it down 0:08:23.325 --> 0:08:26.525 to the anti malarial drug he was on, which was larium. 0:08:26.605 --> 0:08:31.045 Ryan was taking the same anti malarial drug larium. Well 0:08:31.085 --> 0:08:34.845 he was in India, So that's I guess what really 0:08:34.965 --> 0:08:38.205 sort of hit me as like, wow, maybe that's the 0:08:38.245 --> 0:08:40.285 reason for this, because you know that they can always 0:08:40.325 --> 0:08:43.565 be speculation. Was Ryan seeker? Did he do drugs there? 0:08:44.725 --> 0:08:46.685 You know? It was he prone to some mental illness 0:08:46.685 --> 0:08:49.125 that we didn't know about. I don't know, maybe and 0:08:49.205 --> 0:08:53.405 maybe maybe larium and its potential psychotic side effects, like 0:08:53.525 --> 0:08:54.885 maybe that has something to do it. And it just 0:08:55.045 --> 0:08:57.925 that seems to me like the most likely scenario if 0:08:57.925 --> 0:08:59.645 I look at it and I think that's where I 0:08:59.765 --> 0:09:04.165 probably sit on what actually happened. I'd say it's down 0:09:04.165 --> 0:09:06.885 to that than anti malarial drug. That's where I've settled. 0:09:07.565 --> 0:09:10.845 Larium is the brand name from map Laquine, which was 0:09:10.885 --> 0:09:13.885 the antimalarial drug of choice for soldiers in the British 0:09:14.005 --> 0:09:18.525 Army deployed in certain areas like India, Southeast Asia, Sub 0:09:18.565 --> 0:09:21.685 Saharan Africa where they may be at risk of contracting 0:09:21.725 --> 0:09:25.925 from mosquitoes, but the Military Police concluded that it should 0:09:25.965 --> 0:09:29.565 be a drug of last resort after an investigation into 0:09:29.605 --> 0:09:34.525 reports of severe side effects which include visual and auditory hallucinations, 0:09:34.925 --> 0:09:40.845 acute anxiety, depression, unusual behavior and suicide. I met an 0:09:40.845 --> 0:09:43.765 Australian guy when I was there the first time who 0:09:43.805 --> 0:09:45.445 was with Ryan the night before he left and said 0:09:45.445 --> 0:09:49.605 he was running around the Ashram grounds trying to fly. 0:09:50.165 --> 0:09:52.045 And then you look at his journal in the last 0:09:52.045 --> 0:09:54.445 couple of pages, this big scrawl across the last two 0:09:54.485 --> 0:09:58.045 pages in colored markers, just saying something along the lines 0:09:58.125 --> 0:10:01.445 if I'm missing, I'm not dead. I need to free minds, 0:10:01.445 --> 0:10:03.205 but first I need to free my own. And it 0:10:03.325 --> 0:10:06.445 look like an alternate person an Olidia written it or 0:10:06.445 --> 0:10:10.205 someone else altogether, and apparently he couldn't sleep. Probably he 0:10:10.205 --> 0:10:13.205 went into someone else's room in the ashram, not John's, 0:10:13.205 --> 0:10:15.005 but another person's and asked if he could stay there 0:10:15.405 --> 0:10:17.525 the night because he was just afraid of something. The 0:10:17.525 --> 0:10:19.965 guy said, no, go back to your own room. Diane 0:10:20.005 --> 0:10:22.845 share is more information about Ryan's encounter with this guy, 0:10:23.245 --> 0:10:25.765 one of the last people to see him before he vanished. 0:10:26.325 --> 0:10:29.245 He said that he had an appointment to see a 0:10:29.445 --> 0:10:34.885 yogi that was staying at the ashram, and apparently he's 0:10:34.965 --> 0:10:38.685 the guy that when he went, he must have gone 0:10:38.685 --> 0:10:41.885 back and met with him, and he asked him if 0:10:41.885 --> 0:10:45.005 he could stay in his room that night, and the 0:10:45.165 --> 0:10:48.805 guy said yes, and then he said no. See, this 0:10:48.845 --> 0:10:53.885 is what's telling me that Ryan was mentally unstable at 0:10:53.885 --> 0:10:56.565 the time he was looking. He was calling out for help. 0:10:56.605 --> 0:10:59.405 He was looking for help. He was looking for somewhere 0:10:59.485 --> 0:11:04.365 to something to anchor him, and it didn't happen. From 0:11:04.365 --> 0:11:08.045 these stories, it's possible that Ryan was displaying the severe 0:11:08.125 --> 0:11:16.405 side effects of larium, acute anxiety, visual hallucinations, unusual behavior, unfortunately, 0:11:17.405 --> 0:11:22.165 maybe even suicide. And a two fifteen article in The Independent, 0:11:22.565 --> 0:11:25.205 it was reported that the British Ministry of Defense had 0:11:25.205 --> 0:11:28.645 been accused of knowingly risking the mental health of its 0:11:28.645 --> 0:11:32.365 own soldiers after new figures showed that nearly one thousand 0:11:32.365 --> 0:11:38.845 British servicemen and women have required psychiatric treatment after taking larium, 0:11:38.965 --> 0:11:43.285 and in the States, larium was most famously investigated after 0:11:43.405 --> 0:11:47.125 four soldiers from Fort Bragg who took the antimalarial drug 0:11:47.165 --> 0:11:50.885 while serving in Afghanistan killed their wives in two thousand 0:11:50.925 --> 0:11:53.925 and two, even though in two thousand and nine, to 0:11:54.045 --> 0:11:57.565 United States military stopped prescribing larium to the majority of 0:11:57.605 --> 0:12:01.925 its soldiers. In two thousand and twelve, staff Sergeant Robert 0:12:01.965 --> 0:12:06.965 Bales pleaded guilty to killing sixteen Afghan and civilians while 0:12:07.005 --> 0:12:10.525 he was on the drug. When we talk about larium, 0:12:10.605 --> 0:12:14.685 we're talking about big pharma, which wields a lot of power, 0:12:14.925 --> 0:12:19.165 So these detrimental side effects aren't exposed until they've affected 0:12:19.205 --> 0:12:21.765 so many people the danger of the drug can no 0:12:21.845 --> 0:12:25.685 longer be concealed. In two thousand and one, a double 0:12:25.725 --> 0:12:29.085 blind study done in the Netherlands was published showing that 0:12:29.165 --> 0:12:32.965 sixty seven percent of people who took larium experienced one 0:12:33.085 --> 0:12:36.845 or more adverse effects and six percent had side effects, 0:12:36.845 --> 0:12:41.925 so severe they required medical attention. So now there are 0:12:41.965 --> 0:12:46.685 stories out there about the potential dangers of larium and books, articles, 0:12:46.685 --> 0:12:51.845 and programs like sixty Minutes that are featuring them. The 0:12:51.925 --> 0:12:55.165 brand Larium is no longer sold in the United States, 0:12:55.645 --> 0:13:00.645 but that's just a brand name. Mefloquine, the actual antimalarial drug, 0:13:01.365 --> 0:13:05.765 is still available and commonly prescribed in the US. Since 0:13:05.845 --> 0:13:09.485 twenty thirteen, the US Food and Drug Administration added a 0:13:09.525 --> 0:13:13.325 warning to the prescription label regarding the potential for permanent 0:13:13.365 --> 0:13:18.045 neuropsychiatric side effects that might continue even after you stop 0:13:18.245 --> 0:13:23.565 using the drug. This is medical speak for permanent brain damage. 0:13:24.245 --> 0:13:29.205 And other clinical write ups about methyliquine aka larium, it's 0:13:29.245 --> 0:13:31.805 noted that the drug should be used with caution and 0:13:31.925 --> 0:13:35.325 patience with a previous history of depression or mental illness. 0:13:36.045 --> 0:13:40.845 I've had a belief right from the beginning, not that 0:13:41.005 --> 0:13:45.045 I realized it necessarily before he left, but when you backtrack, 0:13:45.165 --> 0:13:47.205 lots of things I think he tainted on the board 0:13:47.245 --> 0:13:51.205 of a mental illness. These clinical warnings cautioning patients with 0:13:51.285 --> 0:13:55.685 mental illness or depression came out eight years after Ryan disappeared, 0:13:56.325 --> 0:13:59.765 so no one, including Ryan's family, could have prepared for 0:13:59.805 --> 0:14:03.565 what happened to him in India. Aaron believes the side 0:14:03.605 --> 0:14:07.965 effects of larium led to a brother psychotic break and disappearance, 0:14:08.605 --> 0:14:11.325 but Jack and Diane aren't completely sold on Larry I'm 0:14:11.405 --> 0:14:16.565 being the cause of Ryan's disappearance. After three investigations, one documentary, 0:14:17.085 --> 0:14:20.685 and years searching for their son, the Chambers don't want 0:14:20.685 --> 0:14:25.125 to close the door on any speculations. But maybe just one. 0:14:26.245 --> 0:14:28.725 There ever a moment where you thought he had sort 0:14:28.725 --> 0:14:33.685 of just left his leg bye for me. No, no, 0:14:35.125 --> 0:14:40.325 but that's only that's only instinctively, you know, I did 0:14:40.365 --> 0:14:46.325 for short times. Yeah, yeah, yeah, nah. But he might 0:14:46.885 --> 0:14:49.685 might have been a situation where he will leave it 0:14:49.765 --> 0:14:52.245 wouldn't contact us, but he's so close to his brothers 0:14:52.325 --> 0:14:55.885 that wouldn't be the case. And now fifteen years well, no, 0:14:56.045 --> 0:14:58.885 why in the world do I think that? So, the 0:14:58.965 --> 0:15:02.165 Chambers don't believe Ryan is out there after fifteen years 0:15:02.165 --> 0:15:05.965 trying to free minds on some spiritual quest. Though after 0:15:06.005 --> 0:15:09.125 he was reported missing, there were multiple sightings of Ryan 0:15:09.165 --> 0:15:13.405 around India which were investigated by the family and unfortunately 0:15:13.485 --> 0:15:18.205 led nowhere. Ryan is still officially missing. His body has 0:15:18.245 --> 0:15:22.245 never been found, but Kundenegi, who was part of Rishikesh's 0:15:22.325 --> 0:15:26.605 local police force investigating Ryan's disappearance. Has been quoted saying 0:15:26.645 --> 0:15:30.725 that the Ganges, the Holy river running through Rishikesh, was 0:15:30.845 --> 0:15:34.645 especially high when Ryan went missing, so if Ryan had drowned, 0:15:35.165 --> 0:15:38.725 the high water and intense current of the river might 0:15:38.765 --> 0:15:40.965 have had something to do with there being no evidence 0:15:41.005 --> 0:15:45.205 of his body full disclosure. The Chambers didn't get much 0:15:45.205 --> 0:15:48.365 help from the authorities in India during their multiple investigations. 0:15:48.845 --> 0:15:51.645 I think the place's job is to rule out the 0:15:51.725 --> 0:15:55.605 fact of it being a homicide. Yeah, really didn't have 0:15:55.685 --> 0:16:02.005 any evolvement, and we looked in search. Basically from their 0:16:02.165 --> 0:16:06.045 thorough search that expanned years with one of them instigation 0:16:06.165 --> 0:16:09.965 captured and the two eleven documentary Missing in the Land 0:16:10.005 --> 0:16:12.925 of Gods, which you can access on the Ryan Chambers 0:16:12.965 --> 0:16:16.525 Missing in India Facebook page, Jock and Diane have been 0:16:16.525 --> 0:16:20.245 able to piece together information on what might have happened 0:16:20.245 --> 0:16:24.245 to Ryan's body at the time Ryan went missing, if 0:16:24.285 --> 0:16:27.445 he had of drowned in the Ganges River because they 0:16:27.485 --> 0:16:31.485 opened the barrages, they opened the barrages to prevent the flooding, 0:16:31.965 --> 0:16:34.205 So if he had drowned, his body just would have 0:16:34.245 --> 0:16:37.445 washed right down the river. In two thousand and five, 0:16:37.805 --> 0:16:41.125 a team checked out all of the river barridges, offshoots, 0:16:41.125 --> 0:16:45.285 and flood overflow areas. In total, the Ganges River was 0:16:45.325 --> 0:16:49.645 searched on three occasions, but as Diane points out, the 0:16:49.765 --> 0:16:53.485 baradges were open when Ryan disappeared, so instead of being 0:16:53.525 --> 0:16:57.325 caught in the barrage gates like most bodies are, Ryan's 0:16:57.365 --> 0:17:00.485 body would have flowed right down the river, potentially washing 0:17:00.565 --> 0:17:04.245 up on a bank somewhere or being dragged out. I've 0:17:04.245 --> 0:17:06.445 heard that lots of bodies of pulled from the Ganges, 0:17:07.885 --> 0:17:12.165 and conversations Dad's had with people said that they generally 0:17:12.165 --> 0:17:15.485 don't take photos of people that aren't Indian, So this 0:17:15.605 --> 0:17:19.125 is an issue. If Ryan's body was found and because 0:17:19.125 --> 0:17:22.045 he's not Indian, there was no picture taken as evidence, 0:17:22.645 --> 0:17:25.765 then nobody would ever know. We'll hear from someone in 0:17:25.805 --> 0:17:29.205 a later episode who experienced this firsthand, but for now, 0:17:29.245 --> 0:17:33.645 it's important to think about this. If the authorities only 0:17:33.685 --> 0:17:36.925 take pictures of drowned Indians, what happens to the bodies 0:17:37.045 --> 0:17:40.525 or any evidence of non Indians or drowned foreigners, And 0:17:40.685 --> 0:17:44.365 why aren't there pictures also taken? I imagine if you've 0:17:44.405 --> 0:17:49.045 got lots of foreigners coming over and going missing, meeting 0:17:49.045 --> 0:17:53.245 an untimely end. That's kind of home tourism. In other words, 0:17:53.525 --> 0:17:58.205 a dead foreigner isn't good for tourism, but a missing 0:17:58.285 --> 0:18:00.965 foreigner Yeah, And I guess you think about it, there's 0:18:01.005 --> 0:18:03.285 a bit of a mystique about someone going missing, right, 0:18:03.365 --> 0:18:06.205 like what have they gone seeking? And what are they? 0:18:06.245 --> 0:18:09.885 You know, have they reached this enlightenment? Have they have 0:18:09.925 --> 0:18:13.645 they become? You know, are they now one of these 0:18:13.765 --> 0:18:16.605 kind of mystical people in India? Like yeah, that's very 0:18:16.685 --> 0:18:22.205 very different too. They died, Yeah, I guess that probably 0:18:22.205 --> 0:18:24.045 adds to the mystique of the place in a way. 0:18:25.245 --> 0:18:29.765 A missing person builds mystique, and mysteries can be seductive, 0:18:30.285 --> 0:18:33.685 but they can also lead to inaccurate theories, like India syndrome. 0:18:34.405 --> 0:18:38.085 But India syndrome is just that a theory, but that 0:18:38.165 --> 0:18:41.085 theory has been tagged onto a real psychosis that could 0:18:41.085 --> 0:18:46.085 affect foreigners and non foreigners alike in India. Those seekers 0:18:46.365 --> 0:18:55.125 might be more susceptible to it. India syndrome is not 0:18:55.285 --> 0:18:59.245 technically a thing, because it's not an officially recognized disease, 0:18:59.885 --> 0:19:03.565 but the psychosis that it's inaccurately labeled. Is a thing. 0:19:04.725 --> 0:19:09.365 As doctors explained to me, Foreigners who experience extreme culture shock, 0:19:09.685 --> 0:19:12.885 illicit drug use, or have mental illness in their history 0:19:12.965 --> 0:19:14.965 and quit their meds to go to India looking for 0:19:15.005 --> 0:19:19.045 alternative medicine or a lifestyle change could potentially experience a 0:19:19.085 --> 0:19:23.725 psychotic break. But what's most alarming is psychotic breaks occur 0:19:23.805 --> 0:19:28.085 in some of the most popular places in circumstances that I, 0:19:28.285 --> 0:19:30.805 as a seeker of sought out and it felt safe 0:19:30.805 --> 0:19:34.085 to me. Here's talk to her share again. A lot 0:19:34.165 --> 0:19:36.965 of these people come to learn yoga. A lot of 0:19:36.965 --> 0:19:42.365 these people come to learn meditation. People do have misconception 0:19:42.405 --> 0:19:47.125 about yoga in the sense yoga includes exercises as well 0:19:47.165 --> 0:19:51.925 as meditation. Now, a lot of people who do intense 0:19:52.005 --> 0:19:55.645 meditation that I'm talking about the mental aspect of it. 0:19:55.685 --> 0:19:58.485 I'm not talking about the physical aspect of it. I'm 0:19:58.485 --> 0:20:01.405 not talking about the exercises. Let's say something like chakra. 0:20:02.685 --> 0:20:06.365 These are all exercises. There is intense medica also done 0:20:06.405 --> 0:20:10.845 a part of yogic meditation. Now, when people go into 0:20:10.965 --> 0:20:16.325 intense meditation beat Indian meditation or European meditation, it has 0:20:16.365 --> 0:20:19.765 been seen that they are more prone to develop psychosis or, 0:20:19.925 --> 0:20:24.485 like you said, bipolar effective disorder. In fact, I have 0:20:24.565 --> 0:20:28.925 seen few cases Indians themselves who have want to for 0:20:29.085 --> 0:20:32.605 some spiritual discourses where they have had some ten day 0:20:32.725 --> 0:20:35.925 intense meditation and they have come to me with depression. 0:20:36.805 --> 0:20:40.405 Doctor Herschet's words echo what we heard from Scott Kearney 0:20:40.845 --> 0:20:43.645 who told us about the adverse effects meditation had on 0:20:43.685 --> 0:20:49.485 a student MLA. So basically, meditation doesn't only help focus, stress, 0:20:49.565 --> 0:20:52.965 pain really for give you an overall zen, but as 0:20:53.045 --> 0:20:56.525 doctor will Be Britain, Assistant professor of psychiatry and human 0:20:56.565 --> 0:20:59.605 behavior at Brown University notes in a Yoga Journal article, 0:21:00.285 --> 0:21:06.205 meditation can also unearth unpleasant emotions, painful memories, or physical 0:21:06.285 --> 0:21:10.845 mental disturbances that can be unsettling at best and debilitating 0:21:11.085 --> 0:21:14.925 at worst. She shares a story about working as a 0:21:15.005 --> 0:21:18.725 resident in two thousand and six at an impatient psychiatric 0:21:18.765 --> 0:21:23.285 hospital in Arizona and witnessing two people who were hospitalized 0:21:23.765 --> 0:21:27.765 after a ten day meditation retreat. She looked for scientific 0:21:27.805 --> 0:21:30.765 research to explain this and came up short, so she 0:21:30.845 --> 0:21:34.685 started to informally ask meditation teachers about the issues they'd encountered. 0:21:35.165 --> 0:21:40.005 And realized negative reactions to meditation were common, and it 0:21:40.085 --> 0:21:42.445 was evident that a lot of people knew about these 0:21:42.445 --> 0:21:46.205 potentially dangerous effects and weren't talking about it, which Britain 0:21:46.245 --> 0:21:51.365 attributes to the multibillion dollar mindfulness industry exposing the dark 0:21:51.405 --> 0:21:57.405 side of meditation. It's about for business. Doctor Harshitt, however, 0:21:57.725 --> 0:21:59.965 is an open book about what happens to the brain 0:22:00.045 --> 0:22:03.805 during meditation and what could potentially lead to a dangerous 0:22:03.805 --> 0:22:07.645 experience when you are in a trance or when you're 0:22:07.685 --> 0:22:10.885 doing intense meditation. One thing is there is a lot 0:22:10.925 --> 0:22:15.805 of cognitively, you are realizing a lot of things about 0:22:15.845 --> 0:22:19.725 your life, okay, and other things that a lot of 0:22:19.765 --> 0:22:24.085 neurotransmitter change is happening, just like you would know that 0:22:24.125 --> 0:22:31.125 a lot of yogis can stay for longer periods. You 0:22:31.125 --> 0:22:34.245 can say in a suspended animation where they don't eat food, 0:22:34.925 --> 0:22:40.325 they breathe lesser, their heart rates slows down. These are 0:22:40.365 --> 0:22:44.525 all because of the neurotransmitters of our body, which they 0:22:44.525 --> 0:22:49.485 are able to control. They are trained from years or decades. 0:22:49.525 --> 0:22:52.405 You can say, but someone let's say me, if I 0:22:52.485 --> 0:22:55.525 go down there and I do that, and I'm not 0:22:55.685 --> 0:22:58.765 trained enough and I go into an intense meditation goals 0:22:58.845 --> 0:23:02.605 for ten days fifteen days and probably it may affect 0:23:03.485 --> 0:23:06.645 So not being primed for intense meditation could lead to 0:23:06.685 --> 0:23:11.045 an adverse effect. In twenty seventeen, doctor Britton did a 0:23:11.085 --> 0:23:13.805 study where she looked at nearly one hundred interviews with 0:23:13.885 --> 0:23:19.365 meditation teachers, experts, and practitioners of Western Buddhist practices who 0:23:19.405 --> 0:23:25.925 described their meditation related experiences as challenging, distressing, or functionally impairing. 0:23:26.765 --> 0:23:29.125 Eighty eight percent of the meditators in the study are 0:23:29.165 --> 0:23:33.085 reported that these meditation experiences had an impact on their 0:23:33.085 --> 0:23:37.885 lives beyond their meditation sessions. Seventy three percent indicated moderate 0:23:37.925 --> 0:23:41.805 to severe impairment, which means they're meditating prompted a reaction 0:23:41.885 --> 0:23:45.125 or result that kept them from living their normal daily lives. 0:23:45.765 --> 0:23:51.205 Seventeen percent reported feeling suicidal, and another seventeen percent required 0:23:51.245 --> 0:23:57.685 inpatient hospitalization for psychosis due to meditation. The research showed 0:23:57.725 --> 0:24:01.685 that these distressing experiences were not limited to people who 0:24:01.685 --> 0:24:04.965 had a history of mental illness, though trauma survivors can 0:24:05.005 --> 0:24:08.325 be a purely susceptible to the adverse effects of meditation 0:24:09.005 --> 0:24:12.285 because it forces them to lean into their emotions as 0:24:12.285 --> 0:24:16.965 opposed to avoiding or compartmentalizing them. This leaning end can 0:24:17.005 --> 0:24:21.485 retrigger their trauma. I have to say this as a meditator. 0:24:22.045 --> 0:24:25.885 I don't think meditation is bad. I'm just highlighting rarely 0:24:25.925 --> 0:24:29.365 discussed issues that bring awareness to a practice that's presumed 0:24:29.365 --> 0:24:33.765 to have only positive effects. Meditation is good, but you 0:24:33.765 --> 0:24:36.045 should know which type of meditation is good for you. 0:24:36.125 --> 0:24:40.525 There are multiple types of meditations. Transcendental meditation is quite 0:24:40.605 --> 0:24:44.765 used a lot, even in therapist So my point is 0:24:45.565 --> 0:24:48.565 not all meditation is bad. You should know what you 0:24:48.685 --> 0:24:55.085 need to choose. So unless you have a learned teacher, 0:24:55.245 --> 0:24:58.485 it's foolish to go for it, is what my beliefies. 0:24:59.205 --> 0:25:01.525 Is there anything that any meditation you can tell us 0:25:01.525 --> 0:25:03.645 now that we might want to stare care of. I 0:25:03.725 --> 0:25:07.005 am not an expert on meditation and yoga. I'm a 0:25:07.045 --> 0:25:10.045 medical doctor, so I would be the wrong person to 0:25:10.125 --> 0:25:13.885 suggest anything. There are some upcoming stories will be covering 0:25:14.165 --> 0:25:17.565 or the dangers of meditation will be suspect. So this 0:25:17.645 --> 0:25:21.525 conversation isn't over, but my conversation with doctor her share is. 0:25:21.965 --> 0:25:25.165 And before you signed off, here one final thought on 0:25:25.285 --> 0:25:29.685 India syndrome. Another thing what I would say is not 0:25:29.765 --> 0:25:33.165 only about mental illness, but if you look at it 0:25:33.165 --> 0:25:37.285 with terms to the West, the religious values and the 0:25:37.325 --> 0:25:41.485 cultural values in the West is crumbling, which is true 0:25:41.485 --> 0:25:45.645 by the number of people who are winning off religion. 0:25:47.565 --> 0:25:52.445 If you look at the West, so somewhere people are 0:25:52.565 --> 0:25:58.125 searching for a truer meaning to their life. When they 0:25:58.165 --> 0:26:01.005 don't find it back home, they tend to go somewhere else. 0:26:01.125 --> 0:26:04.045 It's just like the famous proverb the grass is greener 0:26:04.245 --> 0:26:08.605 on the other side. Doctor Arschet's sentiment resonates with me. 0:26:09.325 --> 0:26:12.885 Our religious values in the West are crumbling, and I'm 0:26:12.885 --> 0:26:15.805 one of the people weaning off my Episcopalian upbringing and 0:26:15.925 --> 0:26:20.645 Catholic fascination to find my own comprehension of a higher source, 0:26:20.965 --> 0:26:24.365 the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, most 0:26:24.365 --> 0:26:29.045 would understand it broadly as spirituality. It's fluid, not constrained 0:26:29.045 --> 0:26:33.525 by doctrine or organized through a system of power. Spirituality 0:26:33.685 --> 0:26:36.125 can be what you want it to be. Is your 0:26:36.125 --> 0:26:41.685