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Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants Hotel. Let's go

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Speaker 1: back your U on Giants dot Com and the Giants Mobile.

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Speaker 1: Go Go on the Giants podcast Network. Welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Giants hontel on Paul to Tino. Today we speak with

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Speaker 1: former tight end Howard Cross to remember former Giants head

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Speaker 1: coach Jim Fossil, who passed away June seventh at the

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Speaker 1: age of seventy one. He directed Big Blue from through

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Speaker 1: two thousand and three, including the most difficult circumstances following

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Speaker 1: nine eleven, two thousand one. Cross remembers it was overwhelming,

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Speaker 1: you know, coach coach had a lot more than what

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Speaker 1: you know. I think the public kind of looks at

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Speaker 1: it as you know, a team of record and a

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Speaker 1: lot of great words there, but a lot to do

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Speaker 1: with if you think about like a brief canceling, trying

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Speaker 1: to have people how they how they're going to deal

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Speaker 1: with this traumatic event, uh, having guys talk, you know,

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Speaker 1: constantly having people come in and talk to us. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot more there than than you know. We

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Speaker 1: were dealing with a lot of the same things that

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Speaker 1: everybody else was. Donna went, but we were just there,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the practice field, smelling the smoke of

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Speaker 1: the buildings every day, trying to figure out like, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, is it really worth being here? How important

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Speaker 1: do you think it was for you guys as players,

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Speaker 1: for Jim to step up in that particular moment to

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Speaker 1: show the leadership that he needed to do. I remember

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Speaker 1: he got the call, I guess from the government officials,

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Speaker 1: including Giuliani over in New York, could you guys come

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Speaker 1: over and visit with some of these people during the

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Speaker 1: most trying of times. And and Jim lead you guys

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Speaker 1: over there to to do an appearance, to try to help,

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Speaker 1: to deliver supplies, to deliver handshakes and smiles and moments

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Speaker 1: of thank you. I mean, I don't think anybody's ever

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Speaker 1: going to forget that. I think it was more that,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of like first responders,

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Speaker 1: and I think that, you know, beyond the eyesight of

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Speaker 1: what we have or the media, we have people digging

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Speaker 1: and and and and grinding trying to find people who

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Speaker 1: are who trying to help anybody they can. And it's devastating, incredible,

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Speaker 1: um disastrous moment. And and these guys are there working

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Speaker 1: through people walked through the tunnels, walked over bridges just

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Speaker 1: to get there to help. And we we did so

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Speaker 1: such a minimal thing by just going over there. You know,

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Speaker 1: we went out and spent as much money as we could,

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Speaker 1: buying you know, masks and gloves and and and shields

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Speaker 1: and whatever else they could need. And if they needed

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Speaker 1: extra boots, we bought and and brought stuff over. We

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Speaker 1: bought the Palace of Water and sandwiches and which. When

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Speaker 1: we sent as much stuff as possible, a big group

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Speaker 1: of guys went over and you know and delivered as

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Speaker 1: much as they possibly could. But it wasn't it wasn't

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Speaker 1: what we were doing that. You know, we were just

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Speaker 1: trying to be you know, as supportive as possible. We

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Speaker 1: weren't the professionals. They were the professionals at that moment.

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Speaker 1: They were the heroes getting trying to get it done,

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Speaker 1: and we were just there to try to, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: make sure they didn't lose hope and lose lose faith

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Speaker 1: in the moment. So you guys go through all of

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Speaker 1: those things to try to offer whatever it is you

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Speaker 1: can to help the don't play that week. You come

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Speaker 1: back and you play in Kansas City. The f d

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Speaker 1: N Y hats, the police department hats, the port authority hats,

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Speaker 1: and all that emotion in Kansas City, and then of

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Speaker 1: course when you had your home opener against the Saints

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Speaker 1: the following weekend, all the emotion there too as well.

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Speaker 1: How How did Jim try to keep you guys together

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Speaker 1: in terms of your emotions understanding that, my goodness, it

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Speaker 1: would be so easy and and justifiably so, to lose

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Speaker 1: track of what it is that you're doing, because, let's

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Speaker 1: face it, Howard, football is a dangerous game and if

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Speaker 1: you're overcome with an emotions about other things, you could

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Speaker 1: get hurt. I think at the end of it, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't keep saying this, but you know, having people

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Speaker 1: come in and talk to us, which probably the biggest

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Speaker 1: part of it. I don't think that, uh that you know,

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Speaker 1: in this day and age of mental awareness, where where

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Speaker 1: this is really where hypercentaive now to to mental your

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Speaker 1: mental health and your mental mental you know, state of being.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't as big back then, but to have you know,

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Speaker 1: people coming in and talk to us about counseling and

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Speaker 1: what you're feeling, what you're thinking about their emotions, it

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Speaker 1: was big. And it wasn't like they came in. Once

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Speaker 1: they were there for a while, they came back and forth,

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Speaker 1: guys got together and talked about it, and Jim recognized that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Jim was talking to them probably I

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Speaker 1: don't know, like we all had to you know, figure out, um,

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Speaker 1: I guess and and shure, we'd all had to figure

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Speaker 1: out like hey, what are we doing and why are

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Speaker 1: we doing it? And and and enjoying it like I

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Speaker 1: had just had kids, Like my kids were or babies

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Speaker 1: like like a couple of months old. So I was

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Speaker 1: like freaking out all around, thinking like, okay, is this

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Speaker 1: season you know where I want to be come and

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Speaker 1: put myself in a situation and you know, but to

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Speaker 1: go out and to try to finish the season, to

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Speaker 1: go out and play as hard you can, and to

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Speaker 1: like I said, just let everybody know that, Hey, look

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Speaker 1: we are still here. We're still moving. Let's keep moving.

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Speaker 1: Pick up, Let's pick up and get started as quickly

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Speaker 1: as possible. That's all we could do. Fans, remember, Limited

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Speaker 1: dot com slash suites for information. And finally, let's get vaccinated.

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Speaker 1: Go to COVID nineteen dot m J dot of slash

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Speaker 1: vaccine to register. Let's talk about Jim Moore as a

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Speaker 1: football guy. He comes in, Giants are kind of on

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Speaker 1: a rocky road. You're in the middle of your career

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Speaker 1: there and in and his first season, you guys win

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Speaker 1: the NFC East. It was George Young's last season as

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Speaker 1: the Giants general manager, and you guys wind up being

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Speaker 1: a playoff team. What was the key in your mind

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Speaker 1: to what Jim did to help that turn around? They

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Speaker 1: came in and you know, I think people, you know,

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Speaker 1: understand what it is when a new coach comes in.

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Speaker 1: He came on a brand new system, came in on

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Speaker 1: a brand new energy and he wanted, you know, to

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Speaker 1: throw the ball up and down the field and to

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Speaker 1: run the ball and pounded, and he he enjoyed the defense,

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Speaker 1: and you know, he had Foxy and then from the

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Speaker 1: coaching the defense, I think he had Paydon. It as

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Speaker 1: a coordinated offense. It just was a lot of energy

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Speaker 1: for for what was going on, trying to get guys

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Speaker 1: up and going and made it fun. So when you

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Speaker 1: go from um, you know, coach Rees was a great guy,

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Speaker 1: did a great job coaching, and then all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden we had his his bad years falling off. You

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Speaker 1: get a new guy coming in who's energetic, who was

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Speaker 1: excited this is his opportunity to have a head coaching job.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do it my way. This is gonna be fun,

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Speaker 1: and all that energy kind of rolls over into the players.

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Speaker 1: Guys get excited about playing, Guys get excited about being there,

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Speaker 1: and guys get excited about that their roles and what

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Speaker 1: roles are gonna play with the new guys. So it's

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Speaker 1: it's fun. And all of a sudden you start having

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Speaker 1: some success and it looks even better to you. So

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Speaker 1: Jim did a good job of you know, you rallying

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Speaker 1: the troops, bringing in a new mindset, making it enjoyable,

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Speaker 1: having fun with it, and he got it done. I

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Speaker 1: remember when when Phil Simms had worked under Jim, when

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Speaker 1: Jim was brought in as a staff assistant, took ourselves

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Speaker 1: after the nineties season, although Bill left shortly thereafter and

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Speaker 1: very Handley took over. I remember Phil saying he thought

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Speaker 1: that he learned more about quarterbacking from Jim Fossil in

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Speaker 1: those lotter stages of his career than he had ever

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Speaker 1: known earlier, and wish he had known more. What was

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Speaker 1: it about Jim as an offensive mind that allowed him

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Speaker 1: to kind of take things so we willy to the

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Speaker 1: next level. Well, you know every year that that that

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Speaker 1: every everything involves constantly so Jim. So Jim comes into

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Speaker 1: the league or comes back, and then at that time fulfilled.

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Speaker 1: We were in the three yards in the Cloud invest team.

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Speaker 1: We were the old school football, right, sure we were.

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Speaker 1: We were just like ground and Town. Let's get it done.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna, you know, suck the life out of the

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Speaker 1: ball and win the game. When Jim comes in, Jim's

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Speaker 1: kind of instituting the the air air offense. Let's put

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Speaker 1: the ball in the air. Let's let's score, Let's get

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Speaker 1: big chunks, Let's let's move the ball. Quarterbacks love that.

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Speaker 1: Quarterbacks love the third the ball, and rightfully so. So

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Speaker 1: it was it was basically the changing of an air

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Speaker 1: when when Jim finally started to come into the league, uh,

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Speaker 1: when he when he was coaching with Sims only came

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Speaker 1: back as the head coach. It just continued with that

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Speaker 1: with that's philosophy. Were things from when he wasn't assistant

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Speaker 1: that first time with the Giants that you kind of

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Speaker 1: had an inkling that you might see him again down

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Speaker 1: the line and it might be at a higher level

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Speaker 1: on the coaching tree. Yeah, he didn't have the personality

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Speaker 1: for for the head coach. Some guys are just you know,

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Speaker 1: uh suit uh nswers and knows that they're sitting around

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Speaker 1: and they're talking and you kind of enjoy it. But

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Speaker 1: that's what there, that's what they're doing. They didn't and

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Speaker 1: it's not that they don't have aspirations at the head coaches,

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Speaker 1: I don't think. But Jim had the whole personality part

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Speaker 1: of it, as as you can see when he's talking

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Speaker 1: the way he was, his manners and stuff, and he's

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Speaker 1: like Okay, this guy's got he's got some things. He's

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Speaker 1: excited about this game, and you know you'll see him

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Speaker 1: again down the road, and every whole every stop that

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Speaker 1: I saw him, man, I'm like, Okay, he's moving along.

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Speaker 1: It looks like he's gonna get there some time later.

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Speaker 1: He gets to be named the Giants head coach at

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Speaker 1: ninety seven, and of course now his quarterback turns out

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Speaker 1: to be over the course of time, Kerry Collins, who

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Speaker 1: was a reclamation project who had had some rough times

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Speaker 1: with the Saints and with the Panthers, but Carry foraged

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Speaker 1: and really took his game to the next level under

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Speaker 1: Jim Fossil. Could you tell us if there's something there

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Speaker 1: that you think Fossil did to help bring out the

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Speaker 1: best and Carry as well and your offense. Quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look, you guys went to a Super Bowl. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but we had to know yet I kill you had

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Speaker 1: Monty comer um myself planning in the game. You had

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Speaker 1: to keep uh, to keep Barber running the ball. You

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Speaker 1: had an office for Lindo was a lot better than

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Speaker 1: people would even imagine, and you had a really really

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Speaker 1: good defense. Uh, we had all the makings to to

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Speaker 1: put up to bring your team together and to get

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Speaker 1: us in the super Bowl, and and best what you know,

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Speaker 1: carry got into the right situation with the right group

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Speaker 1: of guys, guys that were willing to you know, fight

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Speaker 1: in battle, and you have guys like that in this

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Speaker 1: high energy, high energy coach tell me the whole time,

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Speaker 1: let's get it done. We're gonna get it done and

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Speaker 1: keep fighting. You know. That's that's kind of what it was.

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Speaker 1: And then Gym, it's kind of like and I guess

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Speaker 1: you would say one of those times when the coaches

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Speaker 1: kind of have that, uh, this might be might be

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Speaker 1: my last year. I gotta get it going. But I

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Speaker 1: have a good enough team to like turn it around.

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Speaker 1: That's the whole I'm pushing all my chips to the

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Speaker 1: center of the table. So that's that whole speech. And

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Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, look, guys, we're a good enough

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Speaker 1: team to to to be in this thing, working enough

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Speaker 1: team to get into the playoffs. We're good enough team

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Speaker 1: to like go a long way. But if we don't go,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm gone. And let me tell you something,

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Speaker 1: if I'm gone, probably gonna get a lot of it.

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Speaker 1: Because it worked enough team and you're not doing it.

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Speaker 1: It's not just me not doing it. If you're not

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Speaker 1: doing it, people look at that. People remember that let's

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Speaker 1: get let's get it going through you. You're in or

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Speaker 1: you're out. Who's in, Let's go, And people basically showed up.

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Speaker 1: I remember the pushing the chips to the middle of

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Speaker 1: the table, and this team will make the playoffs. He

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Speaker 1: was very insistent about it in the press conference that week.

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Speaker 1: You guys were seven and two at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: that season, had some rough losses to the Rams and

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Speaker 1: the Lions at home, and then Jim makes that proclamation

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Speaker 1: and the whole press room was a buzz. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: it makes for a great sound bite and a great

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Speaker 1: TV clip. Did he talk to you guys about that

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Speaker 1: before he talked to the media or were you guys

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Speaker 1: as stunned when that came out in the media as

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Speaker 1: we were when he delivered it to us. No, he

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Speaker 1: had talked to us about me. He was you know,

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Speaker 1: that was the mantra of what was going on that

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Speaker 1: was that was a big moment that that was happily

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Speaker 1: was the team. Like I said, if we if we

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Speaker 1: were failing, if we had not have made it, I

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Speaker 1: don't think Jim would have made it through the season, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we were seven and two, we looked promising.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, you just look bad, like and

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Speaker 1: I looked really bad. And when you say bad losses,

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Speaker 1: like the press was killing and the presses killing all

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Speaker 1: of us, like you know, maybe the gym's lost a

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Speaker 1: team kind of conversation and then all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: zooms like you know that that's crazy. Don't read that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Like we're in this thing together, like we got we

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Speaker 1: want seven games, guys, we want seven games, like we

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Speaker 1: are in this together, Like I'm putting it all on it,

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Speaker 1: I'm putting it online, like I'm gonna say it out loud,

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Speaker 1: like I'm not. I'm not hiding from it, don't too

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Speaker 1: high from it. Basically, it's it's kind of how it

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Speaker 1: was coming across to us. So yeah, it was pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: So you guys go out and you thrash the Cardinals

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Speaker 1: to to end the two games, skid wind up wanting

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Speaker 1: five in a row to finish out the regular season,

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Speaker 1: to go twelve and four, And you know, was there

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Speaker 1: anything besides the emotional temperature change that he was able

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Speaker 1: to execute in the media or were there things that

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Speaker 1: you guys did on the field differently during that home

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Speaker 1: stretch now you know, just you have to remember that

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Speaker 1: that remember a little the carnival in our division back

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Speaker 1: then that that's how far back? Yeah, yeah, So like

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Speaker 1: you're you're seeing different teams, and like I said, it

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Speaker 1: just we just had a better lot offensive line, a

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Speaker 1: better defense when when you need be. We could run

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Speaker 1: the ball better than anybody in the league. You know,

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Speaker 1: we could rush over to two fifty yards in a game.

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Speaker 1: We could do a lot of different things. I think,

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Speaker 1: Uh we had like a carry swinging the ball down

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Speaker 1: the field with money, like I think even Mitchell was

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Speaker 1: probably team and even coach Campbell, who's those now about?

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Speaker 1: Uh the Troy Company. We had like a lot of

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Speaker 1: a lot of good players, a lot of talent to guys,

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Speaker 1: and we made a lot of plays. So you guys

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Speaker 1: go twelve and four, you go into the playoffs, and

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Speaker 1: then what happens, Oh my goodness, you take care of

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Speaker 1: the Eagles and then you wipe out the Vikings forty

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Speaker 1: one nothing in the NFC championship team at Giant Stadium. Alread. Look,

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Speaker 1: I've been to many of big games. I've been too

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Speaker 1: many places that rocked. That place rocked in that win

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Speaker 1: over Sanding of of Minnesota when you destroyed them right

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Speaker 1: from the from the opening get go. How much does

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Speaker 1: that game kind of you know, come back to you

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Speaker 1: every once in a while, because it was certainly one

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Speaker 1: of the greatest moments in Meadowlands history. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes when you watch things and was lost to the

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Speaker 1: to the public and stuff is you don't really understand

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Speaker 1: like like why things happen where they do. The Vikings

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Speaker 1: were a super explosive team that they were. You know,

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Speaker 1: Chris Carter said they were a foot running team. They

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Speaker 1: would get out early and score some points and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, uh, their defense would would rip you

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Speaker 1: apart because you were like stopping back the third ball

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Speaker 1: every down. There was nothing you could do to catch

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Speaker 1: up with that. You know. The Randy Moss and Chris

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Speaker 1: Carter duo Dante called Pepper back there and they're flinging

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Speaker 1: the ball and people were just you were just some

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Speaker 1: chase mode the whole time. You can never keep up

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Speaker 1: with them. What Coach pointed out to us and in

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Speaker 1: in in from sessions, like just watch the defense. I'm like, okay, Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, we were just watch the defense and we

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Speaker 1: watched clips where you know, because they were so far

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Speaker 1: ahead that that they were just rushing to pass it

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Speaker 1: that the secondary was just like they weren't even we

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Speaker 1: were near the right position. He showed us like three

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Speaker 1: or four clips and he goes, like, what are they doing?

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Speaker 1: Then he goes, yet they're getting a sack. But what

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Speaker 1: if they didn't get the sack? What would happen? So

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Speaker 1: be a touchdown? He goes, we could score a hundred

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Speaker 1: points on these guys. He literally said that, and I

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Speaker 1: never heard of co say that in in a football

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Speaker 1: park and a football mean And then he walked out

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Speaker 1: and then Coach Fossil started smiling and walked out of

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Speaker 1: the room and we sit there looked at each other,

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Speaker 1: like a hundred points And that's kind of like the

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Speaker 1: kind of feeling we had for the entire game. When

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Speaker 1: we walked in. The defense was fired up, like, hey, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you have to start scoring. They'll never get they'll never

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Speaker 1: catch a ball, they'll never make a play, and thinking, okay,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna stop Randy Monson from making plays. Like the

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Speaker 1: field is kind of cold back the end, like the

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Speaker 1: field still frozen like I think just couldn't handle it.

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Speaker 1: They were in duld team be just couldn't handle it.

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Speaker 1: It was freezing were their defense wasn't prepared. In the secondary.

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Speaker 1: We were like torching him left and right. And if

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Speaker 1: krowd was going crazy and the the allowed the crowd got

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Speaker 1: it seemed like the more players were scored, it was

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Speaker 1: just crazy. I remember Carrie Collins telling us after that

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Speaker 1: game how he remembered in those days it was a

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Speaker 1: fax machine, right, and he remembered getting the game plan

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Speaker 1: from Sean Payton that that him and Coach Fossil had designed,

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Speaker 1: coming over his fax machine early in the week, looking

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Speaker 1: at it understanding that, oh my god, this game is

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Speaker 1: really gonna be on my shoulders because we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: out and an attack and wing it. So so so,

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Speaker 1: I think I think the game plan worked pretty well.

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Speaker 1: It was It was pretty It was pretty lockdown. I

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Speaker 1: think I think that be one of Coach Fossil's great

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Speaker 1: this moment with the Giants that game specifically, because it

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Speaker 1: was just all the stuff that that that could go right,

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Speaker 1: being the last probably the game in the stadium, Everything

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Speaker 1: that that could go right went right. It was perfect.

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Speaker 1: Could you compare and contrast the feelings of what you

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Speaker 1: guys felt at seven and four after the two games

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Speaker 1: skid compared to the feeling of raising the NFC Championship

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Speaker 1: trophy at the end of that Minnesota game. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is there any way you could have imagined, Howard? Maybe

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Speaker 1: you guys knew that you were good enough and you

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Speaker 1: could turn it around, But certainly you were getting beaten

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Speaker 1: up outside the walls of the stadium at that point

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Speaker 1: to then have the ultimate prize in your building that

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Speaker 1: you're going to go to the Super Bowl. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think that. You know, again, it's hard because we're

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Speaker 1: That's part of the job. You gotta talked to the media,

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Speaker 1: you gotta I gotta share information, you gotta do what

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Speaker 1: we're doing now and talk about inside the walls is

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Speaker 1: what doesn't matter. Do you guys believe in each other?

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Speaker 1: Are you are you supporting each other? Are you willing

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Speaker 1: to fight for each other? Like what's going on? Like

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Speaker 1: I think a big group of us would go out

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Speaker 1: the dinner every Thursday night and have dinner together just

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Speaker 1: so we could all try to, you know, break bread together,

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Speaker 1: to keep our mindsets in the set in the right direction,

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Speaker 1: pointing in the in the right direction the entire time,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of and I think it was a

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Speaker 1: group and it wasn't just groups or like offensive liarnment.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't groups or offensive players. It was mixed groups

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Speaker 1: of guys that would go out to hang out so

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Speaker 1: they the camaraderie was there, that hey, we're gonna get

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Speaker 1: it done was there, and it got done. It was fun.

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Speaker 1: So when people talk about Jim as a player's coach,

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Speaker 1: you would define that more as he said, a good

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Speaker 1: environment for you guys, understood how to handle the media

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Speaker 1: and understood how to make sure you guys jelled. Is

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Speaker 1: that like more of where his strengths lied, although we

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Speaker 1: do know he was a very creative, offensive mind with

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Speaker 1: the XS and the os. I think the term player

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Speaker 1: coaches is unless hus earned. I think all coaches are

390
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Speaker 1: player coaches. I just think that they're the way they

391
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Speaker 1: go about it. It makes makes some employers happier than others.

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Speaker 1: I think some guys are tasks and maskers, and some

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Speaker 1: guys are like higher energy, you know, like a like

394
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Speaker 1: Pete Carroll out there in Seattle. High energy guys, guys

395
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Speaker 1: like a hundred years old, he's still running up and

396
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Speaker 1: down the field spring and yell and clap on his hands,

397
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Speaker 1: and people say that's a that's a players coach. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, you have players on this team like, man,

399
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Speaker 1: this guy is crazy, Like but you have Bill Belichick

400
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Speaker 1: who was one a billion Super Bowls, and and and

401
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Speaker 1: and Saban who's hey, just do your job. Their player

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Speaker 1: coaches too, so like you don't get the idea of

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Speaker 1: the player coach. I think that the environment that Jim

404
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Speaker 1: creator was a fun, like more lighthearted environment. Uh of

405
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Speaker 1: the environment built on you know, a lot of trust

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Speaker 1: and being adults and let's get it done and let's

407
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Speaker 1: let's keep the energy up. And he was more than

408
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Speaker 1: let's keep the energy up guy when it comes down

409
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Speaker 1: to like players coaches kind of at the spirit. He

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Speaker 1: made it exciting and fun to come into the locker

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Speaker 1: room and get it done. It wasn't always Okay, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna sure, there's gonna be some rough work today. It

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Speaker 1: was more, okay, let's go through this. What what what

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Speaker 1: did he cook up today? What did what did the

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Speaker 1: cook up today? For us? Today, let's let's go try

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Speaker 1: to figure it out and have fun work. So so

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Speaker 1: if that's what Jim meant to the players and to

418
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Speaker 1: your locker room. What would you say to people outside

419
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Speaker 1: who say, okay, Jim Fossil was the Giants coach for

420
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Speaker 1: seven years. What was his major contribution to the organization.

421
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Speaker 1: He was the guy who probably ushered in more than

422
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Speaker 1: anybody else the passing game. I think that you know

423
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Speaker 1: that if you watch the Giants through the years and

424
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Speaker 1: what's happened and Howard kind of developed. He was a

425
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Speaker 1: guy who was the transition from the devastating, tumultuous run

426
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Speaker 1: game to like moving it into the passing era. He

427
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Speaker 1: kind of helped us shore us us and that moment

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Speaker 1: you're you gotta think about coming up with you lose Sims,

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Speaker 1: You've got Hosteller, We're still basically running the ball, Hosteler,

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Speaker 1: Cavity gets uh ki't Graham, Dave Brown, um, Danny Canal,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we had a couple of passes here

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Speaker 1: and there, but nothing really crazy. Then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: we have Carrie Collins and were slinging the ball, slinging

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Speaker 1: the ball, slinging the ball, and then you bring in

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Speaker 1: the Kurt Wearing for a hot second, and you got Eli.

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Speaker 1: The passing games is here, like you can see like

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Speaker 1: like really, he is the the person that kind of

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Speaker 1: help the transition. Our thanks to Howard Cross for his

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Speaker 1: memories of Jim Fossil. You can find this show in

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Speaker 1: our entire podcast network on podcast platforms everywhere at the

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Speaker 1: giants dot com slash podcasts. Until next time, I'm Paul

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Speaker 1: to Tino. So long, everybody,