1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class, A production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday at Holly Fry and 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about murder. Yeah, yeah, 4 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: I always had to say it. Like Linda Melcher, There's 5 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: so much I left out of this story because it 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: was like Blair and kind of sexist in infantilizing to Alma. 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 1: But it merits discussion because these are things that have 8 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: not entirely gone away. One of the things that really 9 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: stood out to me while I was reading accounts of 10 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: the trial was a comment Pardue made. He got to 11 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: the trial a little bit late when it started, and 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,720 Speaker 1: he had to sit in the press box, so reporters 13 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: heard him say this. He had not seen Alma in 14 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: quite a while. She of course, had still been in jail, 15 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: he had not been visiting her, and the first thing 16 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: he said when she came into the courtroom was, Wow, 17 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: she looks like she lost forty pounds, which she apparently 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: had lost about forty pounds while she was in jail. 19 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: But it also was just super gross, and there was 20 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: lots of discussion of her body in the press about 21 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: how like some accounts you read of her trial is 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: about how incredibly pretty she was. And then there are 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: others that are like, yeah, but remember when she was fat, 24 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: and it's just like the grossests, like, oh, she had 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: been quite chubby before all of this, so maybe this 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: was good. Like it's just the grossest, ickiest, But that 27 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: stuff still happens today. It is not confined to the 28 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties by any stretch of the imagination. Just yucky. 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,639 Speaker 1: I just want to point out people still do that. Yeah, 30 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: don't do that. Now. You hear someone doing that, call 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: them on it to their face. There's just no need. Yeah. 32 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: The other thing that comes up a lot is that 33 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: in newspaper accounts, and this will surprise no one, she 34 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: was very young, but she was an adult and a 35 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: married woman, but they call her the girl all the time. Yeah, 36 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: And I'm like, yeah, something that I sort of thought 37 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: about as we were talking about, like the press coverage 38 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: and how they talked about her, and the emphasis on 39 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: what it was going to be like if she had 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: to be executed by the electric chair and all of 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: that stuff. It was sort of about how still today 42 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: when we're talking about like a young, pretty white woman 43 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 1: being accused of something, it being handled totally differently than 44 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: accusations against like a person of color or all of that. 45 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: Like that. I kept thinking about that as we're talking 46 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: about it. Oh he invoked like her one day children, 47 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: Like you know, it was just all very weird. There 48 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: was so much circling around, even from the beginning, this 49 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: idea that like the police not taking it seriously because 50 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: she she could not have done anything. She is a 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: sweet girl that we all love. And as you said, 52 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,360 Speaker 1: if she were not, you know, a cute white girl, yeah, 53 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: that would have gone completely differently. That Dodge is pesky. Yeah, 54 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: and what a weird way to talk about it to me, Like, well, 55 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: this is interesting because to me, and I don't know 56 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: where anyone's feelings on the matter stand. Of course, as 57 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: I was researching and I would be, I would vacillate 58 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: between being like, oh, she totally did it and also 59 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: going like, oh, maybe not. And part of what I 60 00:03:54,720 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: kept coming back to were the parts of the version 61 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: she told Pardu versus the version she told in court. 62 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: And also we don't know that that version she told 63 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: Pardu was really what she said, but there was so 64 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 1: much overlapping detail, but it almost seemed like the Dodge 65 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 1: actually becomes a point for me where I'm like, oh, 66 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: that kind of makes it seem like she really was 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 1: covering for her mother because it's such a weird detail. Yeah, 68 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: why would she have included it in her account to 69 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: Pardue if she had not heard it from her mother 70 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: who said a car came and took him away? Yeah, 71 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: And I it seems to me like that point where 72 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: someone is trying to reconcile all the details of a thing. Yeah, 73 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: and the ones that don't make sense are because they 74 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: weren't really the one that was involved in that part 75 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: of it, right, But that could just be like a 76 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: Pollyanna read on my part, well, and just the whole thing. 77 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: I'm like, but who was driving the car? How did 78 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: they hear they needed to come take a body away? Right? 79 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,160 Speaker 1: They're so right? And so to me, like if she 80 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: had like seen the car leaving the driveway, not knowing 81 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: who was driving it, not really knowing anything like that, 82 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: to me is it would sort of then be reasonable 83 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: to be like an you know, a Dodge, somebody in 84 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: a Dodge came and took him away. But like otherwise, 85 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 1: I'm like, if it was if she had murdered him, 86 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 1: like then how how did this dodge get summoned? Like, 87 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 1: I just it was very confusing to me. Well, and 88 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: there was a piece of information that appeared in kind 89 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: of like the raggy newspapers that were like, no, some 90 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: people are saying they saw two men leaving the house 91 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 1: that night. But then that move, that story just kind 92 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:48,119 Speaker 1: of like disappears into the ether, which makes you sound 93 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: like it never had any real substance. Do you want 94 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: to hear like a creepy part. Yeah, okay, So obviously 95 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: Smith was dead and in the basement. Yes, the Petties 96 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:05,919 Speaker 1: no longer lived at that house on Lindsay Drive, but 97 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: the people that lived there were their friends, and that 98 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: house is where Alma and Jean spent their wedding night, 99 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: and she knew her dead dad was in the book. Yeah, 100 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: it's super weird. That's a weird one. That was a 101 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: little like that gave me the huzz Yeah. I was like, 102 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 1: oh no, Almah, maybe you are a sociopath. I don't. Yeah, 103 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 1: something I have struggled with in this episode and other 104 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: episodes that I don't think we have talked about on 105 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: the show or in the behind the scenes is discussions 106 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: around like alcohol addiction and alcohol abuse, because there's been 107 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: like a movement away from using the term alcoholism because 108 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: it's stigmatizing. There are three different people in my life 109 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: who have died as a direct result of alcohol, and 110 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: the term misuse, to me, does not encapsulate what they 111 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: went through or dealt with. And so when we're talking 112 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: about this on the show, especially when we're talking about 113 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: somebody who clearly, like while under the influence of alcohol, 114 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: was horribly abusive to his family and violent and threatening, 115 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: like to call that misuse feels weirdly minimizing. So it's like, 116 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: I don't know what the best language is at this 117 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: point to both not be stigmatizing but also not minimize 118 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: what's going on, if that makes sense. Oh, same boat. 119 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: I mean, there are certainly lots of people in my 120 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: life who have had a fraught relationship with alcohol. That's 121 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: the kindest way I know to put it. And I 122 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: have these same exact struggle as you. I'm like, yeah, 123 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 1: misuse sounds a little And I don't want to criticize 124 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: people who are coming up with this terminology because I 125 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: know it's difficult, but it sounds a little benign in 126 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: some cases. Yeah, like this one where it's like no 127 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: misuse to me sounds more like someone is perhaps harming themselves. 128 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: But this is a person that becomes like a monster 129 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: um and I admittedly like my own take on it 130 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: is you know, charged with its own bias and experience. 131 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: But it's it's tricky. It's hard to know how to 132 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: how to talk about those things. I know there are 133 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: huge you know efforts that go on, um around all 134 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: kinds of substance use and misuse that that people are 135 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: really trying to find the right language and it is difficult. 136 00:08:49,520 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah U. So Yeah. The other thing that is interesting 137 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: to me in this to jump to slightly less it's 138 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: not less serious and a different kind of serious is 139 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 1: that moment where the authorities did the same thing. Do 140 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: you remember where we talked about the last guillotining in 141 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: France which is kind of recent and similarly like an 142 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: American woman had been murdered and there was all of 143 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: that going on, and just as in that case where 144 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: the police got accused of doing nothing and they were like, 145 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: we have totally been doing things. Shut up, we're trying 146 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: to keep it on the d O, the same thing 147 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: went on here and it just is one of those 148 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 1: things where that also is kind of a tricky space 149 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: of like everyone wants transparency from authorities. Yeah, sometimes transparency 150 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: can hurt a case or an investigation of this nature. 151 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: And I understand how that is difficult territory to walk. Yeah, 152 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: and it can get misused, um and you know, abused 153 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: by by people in power who can just say no, 154 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: we've totally been doing we're doing it. Um. It's a 155 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: but it's an interesting thing that comes up again and again. Yeah, 156 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: I UM, I had some similar thoughts about how um 157 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: the reverend uh, like leaving aside the question of whether 158 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 1: he should have disclosed something that was like was confided 159 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: in his role as like a minister, like aside from that, um, 160 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: like he had reported it, but then it was like 161 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: aggressively pursuing the matter. Um. And part of me was like, 162 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: you've reported it though, like you you did that part 163 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:58,199 Speaker 1: like and now you're so aggressively going after it in 164 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: a way, I'm like, what is why is the thing 165 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: that you feel so compelled to like continue to push on. 166 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: It's it's not as though like you think someone else 167 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: is going to come to harm that would be prevented 168 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: by right. I mean he always told the press and 169 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: anyone who asked him, because he was I mean, it 170 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: was not a matter of like later people criticize people 171 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: criticized him from the outset. But his thing was that 172 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: I really really thought long and hard about this, and 173 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: I felt like to be a good citizen, I had 174 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 1: to do everything I could to bring a murderer to justice. 175 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know what his motivation is. We 176 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: never will. It's interesting because there when you read accounts 177 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: even today, there are people who are very divided on 178 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: this case and how it should have gone down. The 179 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: one of the books that I read, in addition to 180 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: a lot of the newspaper stuff I combed through, was 181 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 1: by a man who was a boy in Readsville when 182 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: all of this was going on, and he had been 183 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 1: one of the people that showed up in the yard 184 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,199 Speaker 1: when he found out there was a dead body in 185 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: the basement, and he had grown up with the story 186 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: and just couldn't quite stop thinking about it. So he 187 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: ended up doing a really comprehensive, you know, research and 188 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,319 Speaker 1: write up of it, and spoke with Alma in her 189 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: later days. And it's it's interesting to me because I 190 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: feel like someone in that position could very easily be 191 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: very heavy handed and biased in their writing one way 192 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: or the other. But it does seem like he's pretty 193 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: to me. It reads us pretty even handed where he 194 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: does talk about like all of the pros and cons 195 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: of everybody involved, Like, yes, the preacher probably shouldn't have 196 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 1: done this, but also he really thought he was doing 197 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: at least he claimed he really thought he was doing 198 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: what his conscience told him he had to. Yes, Alma 199 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 1: was young and grew up in a horrible, abusive household. Also, 200 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: why was her cell green? Like, Yeah, there are a 201 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: lot of questions about it that are just kind of strange, 202 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: and that's you know, those details are what make a 203 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: story like this fascinating. So anyway, Alma and then I 204 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: went down the rabbit hole of like when did it 205 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: become not okay for religious figures to testify in court? 206 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: Just its own little side research projects. We talked about 207 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 1: the brown Dog affair, and by extension, vivisection and the 208 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: anti vivisection movements for a rough topic for both of us. 209 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: Did like we've always tried to explain what anti vivisection 210 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: meant when it has come up in the show, but 211 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: like it like that specific aspect of a person's life 212 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: has always been kind of just a side note, and 213 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: what was a podcast about something else? Right, Like Vernon 214 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: Lee's writing, like the anti vivisection was like a sentence, 215 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: so I wanted to do an episode that talked about 216 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: it a little bit more detail. But then also when 217 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: I heard about the brown dog affair, it was just 218 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: such a weird people got so upset about that statue 219 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 1: and the medical journals publishing on it are bizarre to me. 220 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: Like we mentioned that the anti vivisection is testimony was 221 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: dismissed as being hysterical, But in terms of what I 222 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: read in research for the podcast, I'm not saying I 223 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: read every single thing they ever wrote, but in terms 224 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: of what I made read in the statements they made 225 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: everything they we're saying was way more direct and reasonable 226 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: and sometimes passionate, but nothing that I would put into 227 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: the realm of excessively emotional or quotation marks hysterical. Well, meanwhile, 228 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: like the British Medical journal is talking about people smashing 229 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: things with a hammer is like doing the will of 230 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: their king, And I was like, these medical write ups 231 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: are way more like emotionally overwrought to me than anything 232 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: that the anti vivisectionists were writing in like what I 233 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: read about this? So I just found that a weird, 234 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: a weird thing that I want to talk about. Yeah, yeah, 235 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: It's that's often the case, right, The people who accuse 236 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: other people of being irrational are the ones being the 237 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: most irratical. The anti daggers seemed very irrational to me. 238 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 1: Something that did not seem irrational, though, was the like 239 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: a lot of the core elements of the movement because 240 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: like a lot of the work, but my work is 241 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: not the right word I actually want, but like, there 242 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: were a really really important medical discoveries that we have 243 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: talked about on the show that have been made possible 244 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: through research on animals, like developing insulin to save the 245 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: lives of people with diabetes, everything about tetrology of follow 246 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: and how the Blaylock Tausig Thomas shunt was developed, Like 247 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: that involved a lot of dog research, And I don't 248 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: know if those discoveries would have been possible without research 249 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: on animals. If it had been possible, it would have 250 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: taken so so much longer. And it's like that just 251 00:16:51,200 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: just people feel very strongly about whether that is okay. Right. Yes, Simultaneously, 252 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff that was going on 253 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: in the like eighteenth, nineteenth, early twentieth century that wasn't 254 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: necessary and wasn't respectful of the animals involved and didn't 255 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: try to protect them from pain, and that's not something 256 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: that's necessarily gone away. Like when I was in eighth 257 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: grade in biology class, we had to dissect frogs, and 258 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: this is what led to me being a vegetarian for 259 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: many years, because my classmates, particularly the boys, were awful 260 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 1: and how like they were not living frogs that was 261 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: like the what was supposed to happen in ninth grade 262 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: biology or whatever, but the way they treated these animals 263 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 1: was awful and their behavior during the class was awful, 264 00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't think we are earning 265 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: anything that's actually useful to us in our lives through 266 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: this exercise in the eighth grade classroom, and the behavior 267 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: of my classmates is unacceptable and disrespectful, and I don't 268 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: want to do it again. And as I was thinking 269 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: about that, I was like, and also, I don't think 270 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: I want to eat animals either, And right, that's as 271 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: how not only did I wind up sitting in the 272 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 1: chemistry classroom during dissection and my high school biology class. 273 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: I did not take high school anatomy at all because 274 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: I did not want to do the dissections that were 275 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: required in that class. And I don't know if my behavior, 276 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: like my classmates had matured to the point that they 277 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: were less awful about it, but I still was, like 278 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: I just I don't think this was helping me learn 279 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: in a meaningful way. Right. This is an interesting point 280 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: because I feel like, I mean, I wasn't there, but 281 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: I feel like, Um, for a lot of kids that 282 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: do become comedians in that situation, it's often a coping 283 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: mechanism for them, right, Like, It's not what's working for 284 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: you obviously, right, but the intent is not always so 285 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: much to disrespect the animal involved, but just to like 286 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: get emotional distance from the situation. Right. Like I had 287 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: a similar Like I was freaking out when it was 288 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: frog time. And this will sound very callous, but honestly, 289 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 1: like I know I mentally needed the thing. My dear, 290 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 1: dear friend who was doing it with me, um started 291 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: doing Hello my baby Jay frog with the frog, and 292 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 1: that like broke the tension of it. I was still upset, yeah, 293 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: but he recognized like that, uh, you know, a bugs 294 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: bunny or Looney TUN's reference would would at least help 295 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:06,480 Speaker 1: me like emotionally reset. So I think there's that too 296 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: to consider. Um. I don't want to get into detail 297 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 1: of what my classmates were doing because that's horrifying. But 298 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: it was way worse than saying than singing that my 299 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: baby song with the frog. Yeah, there was also a 300 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: frog that ended up in a lunch room chafing dish 301 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: at our school. Oh no, yeah it was. It was dramatic. 302 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: That's no, no, thank you. Um so, yeah, I got 303 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: instead of dissecting frogs in high school biology, I got 304 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 1: to write an essay about why I did not want 305 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: to do it, and then I was excused from class 306 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:44,199 Speaker 1: and set in the set in the chemistry. Yeah. Um 307 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: so anyway, like as I have complicated feelings about all 308 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: of this, Oh yeah, this puts me in mind of 309 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: all of the ways that various pop culture media has 310 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: tried to like work through this issue. Right. I'm trying 311 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: to remember what show it was like a you know, 312 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: like a a teen drama kind of show where one 313 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: of the was just saved by the bell. I don't 314 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: know where one of the students couldn't bear the thought 315 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: of doing the dissection, and their teacher like went to 316 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: great personal effort to find like a computer simulation of 317 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: the whole process so that they could do it. And 318 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: then I didn't watch the show. I don't know why 319 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: I watched this episode. I'm sure I was like intoxicated 320 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: or something. With friends, there was an episode of nine 321 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: O two one oh about vivisection. Do you remember? I 322 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: have no idea and I never watched that. Yeah. Where 323 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: Andrea who was she premed? She I don't know what 324 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: it was. UM worked in a lab where they were 325 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: doing some animal experiments. I don't think it was vivisection, 326 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: but it was other experiments, and like some of the 327 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: other years in her friend group were protesting the lab 328 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: for what the experiments it was doing, and it became 329 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: like one of those deep, you know, drama television discussions 330 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: of like the benefits and dangers of any experimentation. So, yes, 331 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: I think about all of the ways that bless them 332 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 1: TV writers have tried to help people work through this. 333 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: I will thank you for minimizing the amount of things 334 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: that would make me cry in this episode. Yeah, yeah, 335 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: I only cried like twice. I got more than halfway 336 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:35,360 Speaker 1: through them. Where I had to take it. He did. 337 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: He did a very good job, and some of the 338 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,440 Speaker 1: things that were emotional were not what I thought would 339 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: be when writing it, which is how it goes sometimes, Yeah, surprises, 340 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: surprises always. Yeah. But as I was working on this, 341 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: I found various you know, anti Fifth Section organizations that 342 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: still exist that have laid out various arguments for wanting 343 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: to like end the practice entirely. And it's one of 344 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: those things where there's just a whole ethical layer that 345 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: I feel like is often complicated to people, Like there 346 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: are some people who feel very strongly one way or 347 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:22,440 Speaker 1: the other, very easily definable pro or anti, and then 348 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: for me, there's a bunch of stuff that's just in 349 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: the middle, and I'm like, this thing, this stuff seems wrong. 350 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: Like I make a point of trying to buy you know, 351 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: Vegan not tested on animals space products. But also, you know, 352 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,360 Speaker 1: I have a cousin who had a major heart surgery 353 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 1: as a child, who probably would not have survived childhood 354 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 1: had there not been experiments involving the hearts of animals first. 355 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 1: So it's hard. Yes, Anyway, one thing that I wish 356 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: I had more information about was Lizzie Lindolf Hoggaby and 357 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: the other the other folks that we talked about, Like, 358 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: I just I'm like, this is very fascinating to me. 359 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: We've got a couple of like one was aristocratic, the 360 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: other I think was actually a member of the nobility. 361 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: They had come from Sweden to do all of this 362 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: that simultaneously motivated by wanting to learn and then also 363 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: wanting to like learn how vivisection was used into like 364 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 1: advocate against vivisection being used in this kind of instruction. 365 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: But I just like, I don't know what their personalities were, Like, 366 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what their lives are like beyond this 367 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: particular incident and some of the other figures in the 368 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: movement we do know a lot more about. But I 369 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: was like, you know, I wish I had like a 370 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: more robust sense of who these were as people. But 371 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: if that information is around, I sure did not find it. 372 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: Maybe somebody should write a novel. Maybe someone has, and 373 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: there's a novel about the Brown Dog Affair, but like 374 00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: a novel about a lesser known nineteenth century and early 375 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: twentieth century anti vivisectionist. There's probably something written in Swedish, 376 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: probably so that would. Yeah. I run into that from 377 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,359 Speaker 1: time to time where I'm like, oh, dear, it's not well. Also, 378 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,719 Speaker 1: occasionally we will get topic suggestions from people who do 379 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: not live in the United States and who like live 380 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: in a country where English is not necessarily a predominantly 381 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: spoken language, and it will be sort of like, oh, 382 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: you should do an episode on so and so. There's 383 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: a ton of information about them, and like here in 384 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: the like there's really not those ones, and it can 385 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: make it a little tricky. So anyway, you have ideas 386 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: about episode topics anything like that, you can drop us 387 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: a note. History Podcast us. But iHeartRadio dot com. Hey, 388 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: it's Friday. Whatever is going on on your weekend. You know, 389 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 1: if you've got to work this weekend, I hope everybody 390 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 1: is great to you. And if you're off this weekend, 391 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: I hope you're able to take some time and rest. 392 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: I've been trying to make it a point to myself 393 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: to rest. Sometimes that's working out, sometimes not others. We'll 394 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: be back with a brand new episode on Monday, but 395 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: before that, Saturday Classic Tomorrow. Stuff You Missed in History 396 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 397 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen 398 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.