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Speaker 1: So Mars just is like, it feels like the planet

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Speaker 1: that has most most captured our imagination, the imagination of

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Speaker 1: the science fiction community, I think has been most captured.

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Speaker 1: And it's whatever a couple hundred years run that we're

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Speaker 1: at now, but really like in the last century, like,

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Speaker 1: Mars has been the setting for so many different things,

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Speaker 1: and it's that planet that is like us but not,

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Speaker 1: and so it's just there, and so I picked it

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Speaker 1: for that reason.

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Speaker 2: Hello, I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I study parasites and space, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I love science, but I gotta be honest,

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Speaker 2: I don't really listen to a lot of science podcasts.

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Speaker 2: History podcasts is my thing, and I am such a

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Speaker 2: huge fan of the Revolutions podcas.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I'm a

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Speaker 3: big fan of science and history, and especially the history

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Speaker 3: of science. I really enjoy trying to get into the

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Speaker 3: minds of people in the past before they understood something

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Speaker 3: that we now take for granted, to try to grock

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Speaker 3: what it was like to learn that or to live

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Speaker 3: in a world when you didn't know that. Because I

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Speaker 3: feel like there's such a huge intellectual distance between us

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Speaker 3: and people who didn't know that the Earth is round,

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Speaker 3: or moves around the sun, or the universe is so vast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been reading the Journal of Parasitology starting at

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Speaker 2: nineteen twelve, moving to the presence, and I feel like

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Speaker 2: every once in a while you'll catch a paper where

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Speaker 2: they'll be explaining like, oh, this is how something works,

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Speaker 2: and you know, as a scientist in the present that

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Speaker 2: they're wrong, but you can totally see their reasoning, and

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Speaker 2: I feel like it helps you remember to be humble,

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Speaker 2: because things that can seem right and seem obvious can

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Speaker 2: be wrong with more information. And so yeah, I also

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Speaker 2: enjoy the history of science in that regard.

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Speaker 3: As well, And I think these two fields are more

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Speaker 3: closely related than people realize because science is also about storytelling.

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Speaker 3: I mean, history obviously is storytelling. We're going back in

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Speaker 3: the past and trying to understand what happened and why,

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Speaker 3: what were the major themes and trends. But science is

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Speaker 3: also storytelling. We're telling a story about how the universe

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Speaker 3: works and how it came to be, and it's, if anything,

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Speaker 3: digging deep into the ancient history of the universe. So

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Speaker 3: I feel like these two fields are more closely connected

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Speaker 3: than a lot of people give them credit for.

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Speaker 2: I totally agree. And you and I have interviewed some

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Speaker 2: really great storytellers in the past, so we're both pretty

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Speaker 2: big sci fi geeks, and I often enjoy hearing from

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Speaker 2: a sci fi writer who's trying to explore how some

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Speaker 2: particular scientific concept might play out, you know, under slightly

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Speaker 2: different conditions or on a different planet or something like that.

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Speaker 2: And so I was really excited when Mike Duncan, who

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Speaker 2: does the Revolutions podcast, started writing science fiction. And so

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Speaker 2: instead of trying to test like what would it be

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Speaker 2: like living in a low gravity environment, he's bringing all

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Speaker 2: of his knowledge about past revolutions. So he has a

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Speaker 2: history podcast that he's did for a decade going through

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Speaker 2: different historical revolutions, and he's bringing that history and exploring

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Speaker 2: how these history street things will play out on the

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Speaker 2: Martian environment.

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Speaker 3: And he's doing something really interesting, which is that he

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Speaker 3: just dropped this into his normal nonfiction podcast feed about

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Speaker 3: history and just start talking about a future revolution as

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Speaker 3: if it was in the past, with all sorts of

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Speaker 3: like references and like comments about this source, which you

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Speaker 3: can't really believe. And you should read this other source,

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Speaker 3: all of which is obviously made up, but completely deadpan

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Speaker 3: right as if it was real history. It's amazing.

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Speaker 2: I love it so much, and I particularly love it

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Speaker 2: because I listened to the Revolutions podcast. It helped get

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Speaker 2: me through the pandemic. I'm a huge fan. And he

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Speaker 2: did this series where he sort of summarized some of

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Speaker 2: the main points he took away from a decade of

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Speaker 2: studying revolutions, and then the Martian Revolutions thing dropped, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my gosh, I get to hear, you know,

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Speaker 2: all of the takeaways from the Russian revolutions on Mars,

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Speaker 2: and I get to put together these two worlds that

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Speaker 2: I love so much, you know, space settlements and the

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Speaker 2: Revolutions podcast, and I am having so much fun.

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Speaker 3: He's really the right person to be writing science fiction,

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Speaker 3: if you asks me. And I'm going to say something

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Speaker 3: a little controversial here, which is that we read a

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Speaker 3: lot of science fiction from scientists, but most science fiction

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Speaker 3: is not about the science, like, yes, you invent some concept,

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Speaker 3: but really it's about the people and the politics and

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Speaker 3: what life is like, and it's about the sociology and

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Speaker 3: the people who are best informed to write realistic stories

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Speaker 3: about that are people who know the stories from history.

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Speaker 3: So historians and sociologists and political experts are the ones

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Speaker 3: who are going to be able to write effective, realistic

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Speaker 3: stories about new situations. And that's what science fiction really

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Speaker 3: is all about. So anybody who's into science fiction, I

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Speaker 3: really encourage you to check out the Revolutions podcast about

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Speaker 3: the Martian revolutions.

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Speaker 2: And I've been waiting every week for a new episode

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Speaker 2: to drop, but you don't have to do that because

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Speaker 2: today is June third. The series wrapped up on June first,

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Speaker 2: so they're all out there and you can start now

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Speaker 2: and you don't have to wait a week to hear

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Speaker 2: the updates. It's all there and you can just listen

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Speaker 2: to it through.

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Speaker 3: But first listen to our conversation with Mike Duncan, the

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Speaker 3: author and creator of Revolutions.

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Speaker 2: Mike Duncan is a history podcaster and author. He's written

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Speaker 2: the New York Times bestsellers The Storm Before the Storm,

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Speaker 2: The Beginning of the End of the Roman Republic, and

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Speaker 2: Hero of Two Worlds, The Marquis de Lafayette in the

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Speaker 2: Age of Revolution. His podcasts include The History of Rome

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Speaker 2: and the podcast will be discussing today Revolutions. Welcome to

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Speaker 2: the show, Mike.

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Speaker 4: Thank you very much for having me so, Mike.

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Speaker 3: Since you have dipped your toes into science fiction, which

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Speaker 3: I love, we want to start out by asking you

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Speaker 3: the same question we ask every science fiction author we

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Speaker 3: talk to, which is a philosophy question, and that is,

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Speaker 3: when you step into a teleporter on Star Trek, does

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Speaker 3: it actually teleport you or does it disassemble you and

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Speaker 3: rebuild you somewhere else? Is it a murder machine or

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Speaker 3: an actual transportation device.

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Speaker 1: It really strikes me as a murder machine above all.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if that's how we have to categorize these things.

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Speaker 1: It does seem to be deconstructing something and then recreating

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Speaker 1: it from the matter on the other side. So you know,

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Speaker 1: it's definitely like a ship of theseus situation, because there

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Speaker 1: is something about the identity that persists that is clearly

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Speaker 1: like locked inside the physiology of the body, so like

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Speaker 1: there is a there is a persistence of identity. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really seems like whatever got onto the transport pad,

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Speaker 1: that entity doesn't exist anymore, and a new entity has

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Speaker 1: been created down there that is that is fundamentally different.

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Speaker 1: And you can kind of see this sometimes with like

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Speaker 1: you know, when they're a transporter mishaps, right, and there's

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Speaker 1: like there so now there's whatever. So like the Thomas

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Speaker 1: Riker situation, like you've created a whole new thing down

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Speaker 1: there that thinks it was Will Riker and and but

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Speaker 1: you know the thing didn't get destroyed up on the ship,

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Speaker 1: so clearly something new was being made.

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Speaker 3: And so if you were given the opportunity to use

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Speaker 3: one of these fantastic devices, would you do you believe that.

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Speaker 4: I have never? I would never. I would never get

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Speaker 4: it on transporter in my life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: No, same like if I had a shirt that said,

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Speaker 4: like McCoy was right.

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Speaker 1: About everything, even he's getting off and on it all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: Right, So you have clearly revealed your like science fiction

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Speaker 2: creds already or convinced. So who are your favorite sci

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Speaker 2: fi authors? And have you always been interested in writing

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Speaker 2: sci fi? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is you know, I was, you know, a

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Speaker 1: nerdy teenager once and so science fiction is you know,

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Speaker 1: a part of my sort of cultural identity growing up.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was obviously raised on Star Trek and

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Speaker 1: raised on Star Wars and got into you know, when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid. It was like Golden age sci

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Speaker 1: fi stuff, you know, Asimov and Clark and Hindline, and

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Speaker 1: then you know, you progressed ten years down the road

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Speaker 1: and you're like you look back on those guys and

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Speaker 1: you're like, a lot of this is actually like very problematic,

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Speaker 1: and maybe maybe I'm not maybe I'm not so happy

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Speaker 1: that there's so much Hindline like going into my brain,

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Speaker 1: but wait, but we can not do that.

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Speaker 4: But then, as you know, as I got older, it's

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Speaker 4: really like, you know, like Philip K. Dick is like

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Speaker 4: a huge is huge form.

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Speaker 1: He's a huge influence, and Vonnegut was a very big

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Speaker 1: influence for me. And then also there's a more obscure,

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Speaker 1: kind of out there dude called Robert Anton Wilson who

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed. And so if anybody out there knows

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Speaker 1: Robert Anton Wilson, they're like, oh shit, Robert Anton Wilson. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, those are the guys that sort of like

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Speaker 1: when I was getting into high school and being a

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Speaker 1: teenager and kind of thinking about what I wanted to

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Speaker 1: do with my life, and I knew I had some

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Speaker 1: like talent and some passion for writing that if that's

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Speaker 1: the direction I wanted to go like, those guys were

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Speaker 1: kind of like my guiding North Stars less than Hindline.

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Speaker 3: It's always my dream that somebody mentions to me some

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Speaker 3: science fiction author I've never heard of before, and now

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Speaker 3: a whole new vein of text has opened up for me.

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Speaker 3: So I'm gonna go google Robert Anton Wilson after this

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Speaker 3: is done.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, dude, knockout Illuminatus. Sometimes yeah, it's great.

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Speaker 3: So what kind of science fiction do you prefer?

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Speaker 4: Though?

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Speaker 3: Are you hardcore about folks following the rules they set

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Speaker 3: up in their universe, or are you okay with more

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Speaker 3: like a vibes based science fiction universe.

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Speaker 1: I think, like, you know, I don't don't want to

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Speaker 1: have to pick one over the other. But if I did,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's more the vibe space stuff, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I fundamentally come out of the Humanities department. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I went to college and I had this notion

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to be a writer and specifically you know,

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Speaker 1: do like science fiction stuff. I didn't enjoy the English

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Speaker 1: department at all. I didn't have any good times deconstructing

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Speaker 1: texts or reading these things or like talking about them.

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Speaker 4: It's like, oh, look, another Christ delusion.

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Speaker 1: Great, you know, like this is kind of this is

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Speaker 1: boring me, and also I'm not good at it, so

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Speaker 1: maybe I cou should do something else. And when I

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Speaker 1: would think about those guys who I admired, they were

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Speaker 1: very literate in like philosophy, and they were very literate

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Speaker 1: in you know, Ray Bradberry is another one that I

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Speaker 1: would put on this list. This is more sort of

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Speaker 1: like philosophical where we are using science fiction as a

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Speaker 1: vehicle for like thought experiments, and you know, like Dick

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Speaker 1: is always constantly, you know, grappling with identity, like what

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Speaker 1: does identity mean? And you know, like if if you

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Speaker 1: wake up tomorrow and all your memories have been implanted,

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Speaker 1: is that any different than you know, who you were before.

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Speaker 1: We actually just you know, touched on this at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: so like I wanted to study that stuff. So this

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Speaker 1: is a vehicle for like politics and history and philosophy

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Speaker 1: more than being like I was really into engineering, and

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about what it would mean to

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Speaker 1: build a spaceship and what it would mean to live

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Speaker 1: on Mars. That's that's not really my background. I need

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Speaker 1: you guys.

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Speaker 4: I need you.

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Speaker 1: Guys doing those things for me. Yeah, for me, it's

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Speaker 1: much more of a it's all. It's metaphorical space for

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Speaker 1: me more than anything else.

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Speaker 3: Well, I love that there are lots of different flavors

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Speaker 3: of nerds, and I welcome them all into the community absolutely.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I still read, you know, the Star Trek Technical Manual,

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Speaker 1: you know, but even even I didn't come up with it.

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Speaker 1: And then like some days, I don't know, we'll maybe

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Speaker 1: get into this, but like, you know, I get dang by,

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Speaker 1: you know, the people who are like only hard sci

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Speaker 1: fi is sci fi and everything else is like you know,

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Speaker 1: less than and you know, like and they point to

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Speaker 1: Star Trek as being like, you know, they're doing a

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Speaker 1: good job.

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Speaker 4: It's like they realize one day.

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Speaker 1: That the world would kill everybody on the ship in

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Speaker 1: like a nano second. It would become splats against the

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Speaker 1: back wall. They're right, what do we do? Oh, we'll

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Speaker 1: invent a thing called inertial dampeners.

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Speaker 4: Right. It sounds science y, but it's magic, right, And

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Speaker 4: it's like they're not. It's magical thinking no less than

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Speaker 4: somebody like me just being like, yeah, they got grav units,

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Speaker 4: it makes artificial gravity, Like, just go with it. Who cares? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: problem solved? They're all grab units. And then people be like,

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Speaker 4: you can't artificially create gravity. It's like, I don't know, man,

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Speaker 4: I just did.

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Speaker 3: So Starchek does science the way that like chat ChiPT

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Speaker 3: does science. It's like confidentely produced nonsense. It sounds about right.

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Speaker 3: If you don't know anything, you're like, well, yeah, okay, sure,

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Speaker 3: tachy on inertial drives or whatever. Yeah, technobabble, exact technobabble,

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Speaker 3: that's exactly it.

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Speaker 2: So the Revolutions podcast ran for a decade, and during

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Speaker 2: the pandemic, the section on the Russian Revolution, like that

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Speaker 2: helped get me through the pandemic. I looked forward to

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Speaker 2: that every week. And then you stopped doing it, and

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Speaker 2: you took like a two year break, and then you

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Speaker 2: decided to put a sci fi story in the Revolutions feed.

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Speaker 2: So in the feed of your nonfiction history podcast, we

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Speaker 2: now have this fictional story about Mars. What made you

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Speaker 2: decide that that was the right venue for your science

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Speaker 2: fiction and how has the audience responded?

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Speaker 1: So I had this notion to do a fictional revolution,

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Speaker 1: to write a fictional revolution, and specifically science fiction fictional

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Speaker 1: revolution at least as far back as the French revolution

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Speaker 1: is how long this idea has been in my head.

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Speaker 1: This is not something I came up with at the end,

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Speaker 1: Like I sort of knew this was going to be

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Speaker 1: something I was going to do for a really long time,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of paying attention to like the structural

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Speaker 1: beats and archetypes of these various revolutionary cycles, which often

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Speaker 1: mirror each other. I would take notes on these things

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Speaker 1: knowing that at some point I was going to write

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Speaker 1: what I'm writing, you know at this moment, and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to put it in the feed because it's a revolution, right,

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Speaker 1: and it fits as a revolution, and it is a revolution.

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Speaker 4: It's just a fictional revolution.

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Speaker 1: Now, when I dropped this without telling anybody that I

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Speaker 1: was doing it and just loaded it in there, there

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Speaker 1: is a split inside the Revolution's community, you know, between

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Speaker 1: people who who really do come to me for nonfiction

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Speaker 1: and for history and now I am sort of not

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Speaker 1: doing that, and so, you know, no hard feelings. They're

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Speaker 1: just like, this isn't for me, this isn't what I'm

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Speaker 1: looking for I want, you know, I come to you

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Speaker 1: for history. And then lots of other people are like,

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Speaker 1: this is the greatest thing that you could have ever

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Speaker 1: given me. Because you know, if you're into science fiction

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Speaker 1: and you're into the Revolutions podcast, and then I write

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Speaker 1: a fictional account of a revolution on Mars, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is like peanut butter and chocolate. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is the invention of the recent's peanut butter cup for

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Speaker 1: a lot of people. And then you know, a chunk

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Speaker 1: of other people are like, no, I'm not following you

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Speaker 1: down this road. And you know, I got you know,

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Speaker 1: some some upset emails in the early going, they've they've

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Speaker 1: mostly petered out, and some people were upset literally that

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Speaker 1: I put it into I put a fictional thing into

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Speaker 1: something that was tagged nonfiction, and they're like, this is

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Speaker 1: a nonfiction podcast. I can't fit it in my brain

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Speaker 1: that fiction is now a part of it. It's like, well,

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Speaker 1: go with it, maybe just just kind of maybe just

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Speaker 1: roll with it.

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Speaker 2: Well, and you said it in twenty two forty seven,

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Speaker 2: so it's not like it's ambiguous.

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Speaker 1: But I did, I mean, I get it in the

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Speaker 1: in the first couple of weeks because I deadpanned the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. I did not signal that I was doing this.

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Speaker 1: I did not tell anybody I was doing even though

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Speaker 1: I knew about this for like a decade, Like I

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Speaker 1: didn't tell anybody I was doing it, and then when

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Speaker 1: I dropped the first stuff, I wasn't like I'm going

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Speaker 1: to write a fictional account of something. I just started

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Speaker 1: talking about the Martian Revolution as if it was real.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a really important point that you've done

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Speaker 3: it in the same style exactly as if you really

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Speaker 3: were a historian of the future talking about it. So

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Speaker 3: it's like this fictional, non fictional style. It's incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there was also like clearly like there's self parody

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Speaker 1: that is part of this, Like a lot of the

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Speaker 1: ticks that I do in the show, like I'm bringing

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Speaker 1: those back, and you know, the wording and the phrasing

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Speaker 1: and the style and the cadence, it's all meant to

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Speaker 1: eight myself, but in a fictional setting.

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Speaker 4: And I actually you'll think.

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Speaker 1: This that as a work of as a creative work,

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Speaker 1: it's better if I never break character inside the show,

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Speaker 1: Like I never want to acknowledge inside the series on

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Speaker 1: the Martian Revolution that this is being narrated by anybody

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Speaker 1: but somebody who lived two hundred and fifty years after

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Speaker 1: the Martian Revolution and is now writing about it. That's

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Speaker 1: I think that's actually important to keeping it. I don't

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Speaker 1: know the fidelity to the thing is that the.

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Speaker 4: Word I'm looking for.

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Speaker 3: That's the same reason that like everything Nathan Fielder does

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Speaker 3: works because he never breaks character. Do you worry that

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Speaker 3: in two hundred and fifty years from four hundred years

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Speaker 3: somebody's gonna unearth this and be confused because you never

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Speaker 3: indicate that it's fiction and our only clue is that

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Speaker 3: obviously it's set in the future. But what if deep

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Speaker 3: into the future somebody unders this.

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Speaker 1: I'm not so worried about that because I will be

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Speaker 1: dead and so like whatever happens after this, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to try my best to make the world,

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Speaker 1: you know, better that when we leave it for our children.

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Speaker 4: But like you know, I don't mind that much, like

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Speaker 4: I And partly it'll keep historians employed, you know, because

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Speaker 4: like right now, I'm writing a book.

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Speaker 1: I'm writing a book about the Crisis of the third Century,

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Speaker 1: which is which is a period in Roman history.

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Speaker 4: It is famously very little.

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Speaker 1: It's not well documented because it was so it was

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Speaker 1: like this fifty year period that was so chaotic that

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Speaker 1: we don't have like good solid sources. But one of

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Speaker 1: the sources that we do have is called the Historia Augusta,

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Speaker 1: which we still don't know whether this was like a

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Speaker 1: hoax document that was made. It's like it's like a

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Speaker 1: series of biographies of the Caesars, the later Caesars, where

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Speaker 1: a lot of it just seems to be completely made up.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of his it's historical fiction that was

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Speaker 1: maybe done by somebody on purpose to trick people or

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Speaker 1: as some creative exercise, and we don't really know whether

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 4: True or not. So yeah, people could come along and

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Speaker 4: be like, you know, there was a revolution on Mars,

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Speaker 4: but I don't remember it going like this. He's like

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Speaker 4: one hundred years off on the dating, and none of

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Speaker 4: the name seems the line up.

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Speaker 1: But he's very comedy. He's referencing all these books like

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Speaker 1: like I don't know.

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Speaker 3: And just like chat GPT, you're referencing things that don't exist.

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Speaker 1: See, I'm far more worried about chat GBT leaving a

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Speaker 1: record behind that makes it impossible to know what actually

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Speaker 1: happened than I am this little thing that I'm doing well.

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Speaker 3: I was actually going to ask you about that. If

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Speaker 3: there are analogues of this in history, people writing pseudo

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Speaker 3: fiction of the future other than the examples you just made.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you know, not in terms of history, because like

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Speaker 1: the thing, like the thing I just referenced with somebody

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Speaker 1: writing it's a fake history, but it's of the past,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you do start to get you know,

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Speaker 1: proto science fiction being written of people speculating about the future,

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Speaker 1: like the origins of science fiction, there's you know, several

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Speaker 1: steps along the way. But in terms of like using

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Speaker 1: these kinds of non fiction accounts to write something about

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Speaker 1: the future seems pretty modern and like for me, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like you know, like I said, Asimov, you know,

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Speaker 1: like Foundation has like you know, galactic encyclopare media references,

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Speaker 1: and I know that done like the actual text of

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Speaker 1: it has a lot of like it's cyclopedic entries.

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Speaker 4: And though I have not.

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Speaker 1: Read The Song of Ice and Fire, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I watched the show, but I know that's written as

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Speaker 1: a history and those things like we're really those that

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Speaker 1: using nonfiction sort of tropes to write fiction is a

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Speaker 1: very fun thing.

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Speaker 3: For me.

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Speaker 1: It's it's it's for me, it's exactly at the intersection

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Speaker 1: of my brain being inspired by those kinds of things.

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Speaker 4: But it's all. It's all pretty modern.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember anything from like history that did this.

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Speaker 1: There's probably somebody out there who will email us and

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Speaker 1: tell us what it is.

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Speaker 2: Let us know. The internet always lets you know.

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Speaker 3: The Internet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, the Internet always lets you know. This is

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Speaker 1: why you should never say always, You should never say never,

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Speaker 1: you should never say first, you should never say last.

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Speaker 1: Never say those words and you will be fine.

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Speaker 2: My husband gets so frustrated with me when we're writing

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Speaker 2: because they'll always try to put an always or never,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, we haven't read everything exactly. We don't

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Speaker 2: know that for sure.

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Speaker 1: And the thing is is like one time I said

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Speaker 1: that this was the only cavalry encounter to ever capture ships, right,

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Speaker 1: like a cavalry captured boats.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that's pretty unique.

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Speaker 1: And there was an incident in a Dutch in a

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Speaker 1: frozen Dutch harbor during the wars of the French Revolution,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, this is the only time that

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Speaker 1: this ever happened, because it's so implausible. And then later

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Speaker 1: I was doing Spanish American Independence and some Jose Antonio

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Speaker 1: pause is cavalry guys like took some gunboats. It was

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Speaker 1: just it was a shallow river, and so there's another cavalry,

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Speaker 1: a cavalry attack that captured boats, which you would think

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Speaker 1: would be impossible.

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Speaker 2: At least you were the one who figured out the mistakes.

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Speaker 4: I did someone email you with I did find that

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Speaker 4: one out.

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Speaker 2: Yet they're not always so nice when they email you

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Speaker 2: with up the mistakes.

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Speaker 1: No, No, somebody actually emailed me about the Martian Revolution

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Speaker 1: and the subject line was errors and mistakes in the

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Speaker 1: Martian Revolution, and.

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Speaker 4: It was not cheeky.

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Speaker 1: I've gotten some emails that are very cheeky and like

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Speaker 1: people are like responding with deadpan. They're like, you know,

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Speaker 1: you reference this book and I have found him to

439
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,159
Speaker 1: be like very like sketching on the sources, and like

440
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:04,680
Speaker 1: there's this other book that I think is way better.

441
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 1: And those are emails like these people get it and

442
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,719
Speaker 1: I'm having a really good time with them. But then

443
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 1: this guy emails me and these like errors and mistakes

444
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 1: in like your work of fiction, and I'm like, I

445
00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: don't think you can do that.

446
00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,680
Speaker 4: You can say like I wish you hadn't have said that,

447
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,399
Speaker 4: or I wish you had done something different, but I

448
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 4: don't think you can tell me that there was an

449
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 4: error in it. No.

450
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,080
Speaker 2: My favorite email is when someone says they're telling you

451
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,480
Speaker 2: an error you made, but actually you didn't talk about

452
00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,400
Speaker 2: their favorite pet topics. Yeah, and that was the error

453
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 2: that you made, was you didn't talk about that other thing.

454
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:33,639
Speaker 2: And you're like, I could have this book could have

455
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 2: been five thousand pages long. It had to end somewhere, man.

456
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I when I did the American Revolution, I basically

457
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,479
Speaker 1: got an email about every single local skirmish that ever

458
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: happened in the entire course of the American War of

459
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 1: Independence that I did not cover, and therefore have left

460
00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:53,040
Speaker 1: my audience bereft of the deinformation that they need. Like, okay, man,

461
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:55,520
Speaker 1: there was like seventeen guys there. I'm trying to talk

462
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 1: about the Declaration of Independence. You know, I got to

463
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: pick and choose what I talk about here.

464
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,119
Speaker 3: So when you're doing history, obviously you want to be

465
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,399
Speaker 3: rooted in the facts, and so you're constrained by what

466
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,200
Speaker 3: actually happened. In this case, you could have chosen any

467
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 3: location anytime. Why did you choose Mars in the twenty

468
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:12,840
Speaker 3: two hundreds.

469
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 1: The other thing I'm doing with the show is, you know,

470
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 1: I'm taking all of these like historical moments historical events,

471
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 1: historical beats, historical archetypes, and creating a mosaic story out

472
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: of them. But I'm also taking science fiction tropes and

473
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 1: using them. I'm like sort of combining both of those

474
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,920
Speaker 1: at the same time. So there's aspects of the show

475
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 1: that's like, oh, this comes from the Mexican Revolution, and

476
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 1: then there's a thing from the show, like that thing

477
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 1: that came from Enders Game. So Mars just is like,

478
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,880
Speaker 1: it feels like the planet that has most most captured

479
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: our imagination, the imagination of the science fiction community, I

480
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,960
Speaker 1: think has been most captured in it's whatever a couple

481
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,879
Speaker 1: hundred years run that we're at now, but really like

482
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 1: in the last century, like, Mars has been the setting

483
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: for so many different things, and it's that planet that

484
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: is like us but not And so it's just there,

485
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 1: and so I picked it for that reason, right, Like

486
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to live in the same place that you

487
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: know they were writing about one hundred years ago.

488
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: Well, let's take a break and when we get back,

489
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 2: we'll talk about building a world on Mars. All right,

490
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,760
Speaker 2: we're back. So when Zach and I were researching a

491
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,400
Speaker 2: city on Mars, we were often asked and often thought

492
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,120
Speaker 2: about what could economically justify settling Mars, and we came

493
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: up with like nothing, And the proposals that we saw included,

494
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: like you could start a reality TV show on Mars

495
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: and that would fund it. Even though people like started

496
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: shutting off the Apollo missions after twelve, they tuned back

497
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: in when the Oxygen canister up on thirteen, but after

498
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 2: that they started tuning out again. So I'm not convinced

499
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: reality TV would fund your space settlement.

500
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 3: Unless you're intentionally killing people.

501
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, which hopefully notes yeah, But so I suspect, yeah,

502
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 2: you came to the same conclusion that Mars doesn't have

503
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 2: a lot of resources valuable enough to send to Earth.

504
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 2: So tell us about the resource you came up with

505
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: that justifies settling Mars and how you picked that resource.

506
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,440
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it's just that, like I had

507
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: to have a reason for us to go to Mars,

508
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 1: and at the moment, there is literally no reason for

509
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: us to go to Mars.

510
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 4: Like going to Mars would be a stupid waste of

511
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 4: time and money.

512
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: And I say that even as somebody who is like

513
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,159
Speaker 1: enchanted by the wonders of space, you know, like I

514
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,160
Speaker 1: grew up on science fiction.

515
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,160
Speaker 4: Just like everybody else.

516
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 1: It's not like I want to say, you know, we

517
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't explore and create and like advance our technologies and

518
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 1: all that stuff.

519
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 4: Like I love I love NASA, like I love I

520
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 4: love this stuff, I really do. But they're nothing on Mars.

521
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: It's not like people think about Mars sometimes like it's

522
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: just like New Mexico or something, and you can just

523
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 1: go there and it's like red and desert.

524
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 4: Ye, but that's the that's the only difference.

525
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: And you know, as like I came up with this

526
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: and I'll answer your question, but like, yeah, you know,

527
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: reading City on Mars is just like really drills home that,

528
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: like the future of the species is not building a

529
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: dome in the in the Mariana Trench, you know, because

530
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: that's an impossible, stupid place to try to like live,

531
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 1: just like Mars. So I had to invent Essentially a

532
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: new periodic table of elements.

533
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 4: Is what it is.

534
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: Basically, Like inside the periodic table of elements, we discover

535
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: that there's like some substratum matrices within that that we

536
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: had we've never discovered before and didn't know about before,

537
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: and it's in there and there's different versions of things

538
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:44,720
Speaker 1: and There's a thing called FOSS five, which I gave

539
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: it a very very long scientific name in the first episode,

540
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: and which I could not recreate ever again, like I

541
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,560
Speaker 1: actually had to fanatically spell it out for myself, and

542
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: I just I did. It was technobabble, right, I just

543
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 1: like jammed together as many prefectses and suffexes into a

544
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: single world as I possibly could, and then then slapped

545
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: a five on it, which was a bit of an omase.

546
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: There's a Red Rising series about a revolution on Mars,

547
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: and their thing is like their mining helium three some

548
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: My thing is Phos five, which, again, like these are

549
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: meant to be the sort of like homages and tips

550
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 1: of the cap to all the people who came before me.

551
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 1: So Foss five is a thing that then powers what

552
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: is essentially unlimited clean energy, and that is what allows

553
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: our species on Earth here to get out from under

554
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: the twenty first century, which I am positing to be

555
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: like insane chaos anarchy, you know, climate disasters that is

556
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 1: going to define the twenty first century, and pulling out

557
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: of the twenty first century is about the discovery of

558
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 1: Phos five, the discovery of these things called flex cells,

559
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: which allows us to have unlimited clean energy, and then

560
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: there's only a limited amount of this on Earth, but

561
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: there's a just a ton of it on Mars. Right

562
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: The volcanoes of Mars are loaded with PHOSS five. And

563
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: so that's what takes us there and gets us there

564
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,439
Speaker 1: and justifies it. And this is all just complete invention,

565
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: you know, because there's, like I said, there's nothing in

566
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: reality right that we as we understand it right now,

567
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: that would justify the colonization of Mars.

568
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,479
Speaker 3: And if I could just dig into a tiny bit,

569
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: I don't know how hardcore you went on the science here.

570
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 3: Were you mentioning something with the atomic number is above

571
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: the numbers on the current periodic table or somehow like

572
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 3: stuck in between?

573
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 4: Oh no, No, I didn't get into that at all.

574
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 4: I just gave it. I just gave it a cool

575
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 4: sounding name.

576
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: Because there actually is a really fun concept in science

577
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 3: about these super heavy elements which could maybe have been

578
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 3: created in supernova events or nutrient star collisions, and potentially

579
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: could be in other places in the universe and could

580
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 3: have really weird properties.

581
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: So one of one of the things that I do

582
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: in the show is, you know, I'm constantly referencing like

583
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 1: these fake history books that talk about because the show

584
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: is set like the narrator's two hundred and fifty years

585
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: after event, so he's always referencing, you know, books that

586
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: have been written about the Martian Revolution. And in the

587
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: very first episode, I was like, okay, if you want

588
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 1: to learn more about out flex cells and FoST five

589
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: and how all this stuff works. You know, the definitive

590
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: account is by this doctor I forget what his name is,

591
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: and his book is called Suspending Disbelief. How to stop

592
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: caring about it even though you really want to care

593
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: about it and just kind of like, this is my book, right,

594
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: and this is like signal to like the audience just

595
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: just just sit back and enjoy the story without getting

596
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: too caught up in like the mechanics of it, because

597
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: I'm not doing that. I'm I want to be Ray

598
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: Bradberry and Philip K.

599
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 4: Dick. I don't want to be Arthur C. Clark.

600
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,959
Speaker 1: I don't want to be and I don't even want

601
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 1: to be Kim Stanley Robinson even though I love Kim

602
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,479
Speaker 1: Stanley Robinson.

603
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 4: I can't do what he does. I can't do what

604
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 4: I can't do what those guys do.

605
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: Well, I'll put more tachions into the disbelief dat exactly.

606
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: But I want to ask you a history question about that.

607
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 3: You're making this argument about the future and resources, and

608
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 3: I was wondering if you're making a broader argument about

609
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,959
Speaker 3: the cycle of civilization, about how we discover a new

610
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: resource which transforms our society, opens up a new territory,

611
00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: and that we then go through this sort of cyclical

612
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: expansion and collapse or revolution. Is there a broader argument

613
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 3: that you're making there about the sort of structure of

614
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: human civilization.

615
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: It's mostly a plot device to get us to Mars.

616
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: But but your point is well taken. I mean, like

617
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 1: the Dutch were powered by wind, and then when coal

618
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: supplants wind, then the British are suddenly like doing great

619
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: because they've got all this coal. And then we move

620
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: from coal to oil, and you know, now the United

621
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: States and now you know the Saudi's and you know,

622
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: the Middle East suddenly becomes like the main center of things.

623
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: And it's been a minute since we've had a true

624
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: revolution in terms of our energy usage, like what and

625
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: how we use energy. And if something comes along, yeah,

626
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: I think it'll radically change the nature of our civilization

627
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: and who's on top and who's who's not.

628
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: What are some of the other historical points you're trying

629
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: to get across in this in this podcast? Is it

630
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 2: just for fun or are you trying to help people

631
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 2: understand revolutions better?

632
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: The project is, yes, to have fun, but also we're

633
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 1: going through the process of a revolution, and I am

634
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: trying to create the structures that I have seen previous

635
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: revolutions go through. There is an enseon regime of some

636
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: kind that is broken and dysfunctional, there will be resistance

637
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: to that. It's not, however, just about you know, oppressed

638
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: masses rising up and overthrowing something. There is always disaffected

639
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: elites inside the enon regime who either want more power

640
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: or they're frustrated with the incompetence of the leaders of

641
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 1: the regime, who start to turn against it because they

642
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: would prefer themselves to be in power. There are structures

643
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: inside of the movements where where any revolutionary movement that

644
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: comes together to overthrow the power that had ruled them previously,

645
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: there's a thing that I positive it's called the entropy

646
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: of victory that as soon as that group wins, they

647
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: break into two or even three factions and then begin

648
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: fighting amongst themselves. One of those factions wins, and then

649
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: that group splits into two. And there's this constant sort

650
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: of like like coming together and then breaking apart that

651
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 1: I've seen so often, to the point where then you know,

652
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: you get to the end of the Russian Revolution and

653
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: Stalin is literally purging the old Bolsheviks, right, He's purging

654
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks are the one who they beat the Mensheviks,

655
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 1: they beat the Srs, they beat the anarchists, they beat

656
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: the Royalists, they beat the they beat the liberals. And

657
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: then you say, you have this tiny, tiny group of Bolsheviks,

658
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: and then even inside that Bolshevik click, then Stalin breaks

659
00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: off from them and purges all the old Bolsheviks. So like,

660
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: this is a thing that goes on, and that is

661
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: something that is happening inside the Martian Revolution for sure.

662
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: I heard a great history joke the other day, which

663
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: is what the when the IRA gets together, the very

664
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: first thing they do is discuss the split.

665
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, anyway, and that's the thing that's that's not that's

666
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: not just the IRA, that is every single group. I mean,

667
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, like Monty Python's life with Brian like had

668
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: that great bit where they're like sitting around in the

669
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 1: stands of the coliseum and it's like, you know, the

670
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: People's Party for I don't. I don't remember what is

671
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 1: and I'm not even gonna try because then we're gonna

672
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 1: get money python people yelling at me.

673
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: But you know the joke, right, I don't remember that

674
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:04,959
Speaker 2: part of the Life of Brian. I remember the amazing

675
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 2: song at the end, which I played for my daughter

676
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 2: the other day. What were you going to ask?

677
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 3: Did I hear you say correctly that we're going through

678
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: a revolution right now? You mean like us literally at

679
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 3: this moment in time.

680
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no no, in the Martian Revolution?

681
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,479
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I mean there are revolutionary things that are

682
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 1: happening right now in current events, but they're not like

683
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: fun revolutionary things. This is bad revolutionary things. But they're

684
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: doing revolutionary things that are very similar to sort of

685
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: year zero Jacobin stuff and like abolish everything Bolshevik stuff.

686
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: They're just doing it for reactionary reasons, not for progressive reasons.

687
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: So we talked about how you created FoST five to

688
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: give an excuse to go to Mars. What were some

689
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: of the other features of life on Mars that you

690
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: felt like you had to deal with So I know

691
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: you didn't constrain yourself to the hard science, but were

692
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: there things where you were like, oh, I really have

693
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: to deal with X and Y.

694
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: Well, it was like it was sort of in designing

695
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: what the cities would look like. It sure felt like

696
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 1: they were going to be living underground as opposed to like,

697
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, buildings on the surface. It just seemed like

698
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: that was going to be a thing. And so there's

699
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,280
Speaker 1: this thing inside the show called the Martian Way, which

700
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: is like sort of how the people who lived on

701
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: Mars wound up living, like their cultural attitudes and like

702
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: how they wind up behaving with each other. And there

703
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: is something to the fact that they're living in close

704
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: quarters with each other all the time that there's you know,

705
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,719
Speaker 1: it's corridors and rooms rather than like nobody really has

706
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: any open or empty space. And so if you're somebody

707
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: who can't handle being around people all the time, then

708
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: that you're not going to survive on Mars. And then

709
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 1: there's also a whole thing about how you know when

710
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: you're out there and you have to do this stuff,

711
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: like the sort of the individualist settler archetype that we

712
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: think of like the rugged individual who goes out and

713
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: you know, makes their own farm and they're totally self sufficient.

714
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 4: Number one.

715
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: That wasn't even true in the Old West. But it's

716
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: especially impossible in a situation like Mars. So like those

717
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: kinds of like but that's mostly about the social stuff,

718
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: and so to deal with other things, like what are

719
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: the gravity differences? I invented gravi units and grave units

720
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: handle that. And there are air scrubbers that make sure

721
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: that the air is clean and works properly, and they've

722
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: got ways of generating food, and they've got ways of

723
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: generating water that are just it's not about trying to

724
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: figure out how we would actually live on Mars. And

725
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: then when it comes to like the ships, like the

726
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: ships that are going back and forth. I mean I

727
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: literally say if I say in the show that, like

728
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: it would usually take six to eight weeks at this

729
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: point to get from Earth to Mars, depending on you know,

730
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 1: where we are in the orbits, which just by coincidence,

731
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: happens to be the amount of time it took sailing

732
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: ships to get from Europe to the Americas during the

733
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: era of classical revolutions. Because that's what I'm here to

734
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: talk about more than anything else.

735
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 3: If you've created these little science fiction do dads get

736
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 3: around some of these issues? Why not set the revolution

737
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 3: in the Marianna's Trench or Antarctica or somewhere else more realistic?

738
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 4: Oh, because it's fun to be on Mars. I mean,

739
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,359
Speaker 4: I mean, straight up, man, It's just it's more, it's

740
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 4: more fun. What was cooler? Star Trek or SeaQuest DSV.

741
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 4: You know, Star Trek.

742
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 2: Jonathan Brandis was pretty awesome though.

743
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 4: Yeah.

744
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 2: He was in SeaQuest right.

745
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, yeah, he was the Yeah, he

746
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: was the he was the he was the tiger beat

747
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: heart throb from from SeaQuest.

748
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 2: I did have the tiger Beat things pinned to my

749
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: wall when I was the right age?

750
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 4: Who was who was it was?

751
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: Jonathan Brandis?

752
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 4: Yeah?

753
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, greater than light history on the pod today.

754
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: Really great hair, real loss for everyone. Yeah he did

755
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 2: have great hair. Yeah, all right, anyway, sorry to get

756
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: us off track there. When we were writing about a

757
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: city on Mars, a lot of the arguments that we

758
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 2: found for why you should settle space is that it

759
00:34:56,080 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: would cause cultural diversity, and a lot of people we're

760
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 2: arguing that, hey, you know, we're losing a bunch of

761
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 2: languages here on Earth. But if you go to Mars,

762
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 2: they're going to be so cut off from everything that's

763
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: happening on Earth that you're going to get all of

764
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: this diversity in culture and we're going to be able

765
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 2: to undo this horrible homogenization that's happening here on Earth.

766
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: How good do you think that argument is?

767
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: It's certainly nothing that I thought would happen. And this

768
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: is a lot, you know, I do in the early episodes.

769
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: You know, the Martians do develop their own culture because

770
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: politics is off and downstream of culture, and so I

771
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that there was like a because

772
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: this is actually one of the things about revolutions is

773
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 1: you go twenty thirty years before a revolution and you

774
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: start getting writers and artists and musicians who are exploring

775
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: new ideas and putting ideas that are out there that

776
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: then sort of the generation that grows up with those

777
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: sort of cultural outputs in their head, then they go

778
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: on and they do sort of like the political and

779
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,760
Speaker 1: economic changes. And so the Martians absolutely have their own culture,

780
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: but they're plugged into the company. They're plugged into and

781
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: the signals that are coming out of omniicor are you know,

782
00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: they're watching the same shows, they're seeing the same commentary,

783
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: they're they're receiving the same information as as Earthlings on

784
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: Earth who are living under omnichor as auspices are in

785
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: the same way that like when I went to I

786
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: lived in I lived in France for three years. And

787
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: when I was in France, you know, thirty years ago,

788
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: if I was living in France, I would have just

789
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 1: been bathed in French TV, French you know, magazines, French newspapers.

790
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 4: Because that was the only thing that would be available.

791
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 1: But I could sit in Paris today and just you know,

792
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: beyond English language Twitter and watch English shows, and I'm

793
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: not I never felt like I was cut off from

794
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: like American culture when I was living in France. And

795
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: that's essentially what I'm positing for the Martians is that

796
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: a lot of what they're getting passively is is cultural

797
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,360
Speaker 1: products from Earth. Also in the way that like, you know,

798
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: that was true of the Americans in you know, in

799
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: both Spanish America and Anglo America and Franco America, they

800
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: were engaging with the cultural products of the mother countries,

801
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 1: not from themselves, and it was a big deal when

802
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: Hawthorn comes out and is relevant back in Europe. And

803
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: so there is a person whose name now escapes me

804
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: unfortunately because I wrote it so long ago. But it

805
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: was a big deal when there was a musician who

806
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: made a song that was actually a hit back on

807
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: Earth and it was the first like Martian whoever, like

808
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: cracked the civilization was like geist back on Earth because

809
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 1: they're all living under that same thing, so they wouldn't

810
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: be cut off, and at least not in my at

811
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: least not in my story because like I mean, how

812
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 1: long does it take to get a signal? There just

813
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 1: is just a couple of minutes. It's not like it's

814
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: not like they're living in Lima, Peru in you know,

815
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: like the fifteen hundreds, when it would take literally six

816
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: to nine months to get a letter back to Spain,

817
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: and then another six to nine months to get the letter,

818
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: you know, the response back like how.

819
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:56,800
Speaker 4: Are you that?

820
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: Nine months later somebody's like I am fine. Nine months

821
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: later it winds up back in Lima, Like that's not

822
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: how it would I think be on Mars.

823
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,879
Speaker 3: So as a reader of science fiction, I'm always using

824
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 3: my physics brain to analyze, like does this make sense?

825
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 3: Would that actually work? But there's often social stuff and

826
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 3: historical stuff and big themes in these books that I

827
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 3: don't feel qualified to, like, you know, understand whether they're realistic.

828
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 3: When you read science fiction, Like when you read the Expanse,

829
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 3: which is very political, right, it's got these communities and

830
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: they separate in these ways, does your history brain kick

831
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 3: in and you're like, that's not how it was to work,

832
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,720
Speaker 3: or actually this should go a different way, or basically

833
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 3: what are your thoughts about those things? Yeah?

834
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that part of this project for

835
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: me is to you know, I'm not infallible. I'm not

836
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: creating like a perfect product here or anything, but like

837
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: I'm so steeped in the political history of human civilization

838
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: that I do feel like I'm uniquely able to write

839
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: plausible politics for in a science fiction setting in a

840
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: way that lots of science fiction books. I have to

841
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: suspend my disbelief about how this society has been organized.

842
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: You know, we all have to suspend our disbelief that

843
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: every planet anyone seems to go to, it's like the

844
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,399
Speaker 1: planet is like a country, it's a node. Like there's

845
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: never there's never internal you know, conflict on any of

846
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: these planets. It's always just like one planet equals like

847
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: one thing. And that's that's for storytelling reasons and for

848
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: dramatic reasons because it would get so complex. But yeah,

849
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: for sure, I think, like I do have to suspend

850
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: disbelief all the time. And when I read you know,

851
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 1: the Kim Stanley Robinson books, which are fantastic, right, I

852
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 1: love those books, and I even wrote, I even wrote

853
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: into the show that the people who were designing all

854
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 1: the stuff that allowed us to live on Mars, you know,

855
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: the company that was doing it was KSR Designs. They're

856
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 1: they're the leaders of Martian technology and spaceship technology. Because

857
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: that's it's Kim Stanley Robinson, right, that's that is what

858
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 1: that is meant to be. Some of the politics in

859
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: those books, I'm like, ah, Okay, that's fine, I'll suspend disbelief.

860
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 4: It's fine, I don't mind. My thing is better on

861
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 4: the politics but obviously terrible on the science.

862
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,759
Speaker 2: So you and ks are both leaned into age extension

863
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: as a way to move forward the plots. I feel

864
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 2: like as a biologist, that's the thing that gets me.

865
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, I'm not convinced we're ever going to

866
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 2: be able to do that. And so the age extension

867
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,399
Speaker 2: thing seems to have been dropped. Now does it come back?

868
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 5: I want to tell me what happened, I'm not going

869
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 5: to I'm not going to give any spoilers, all right,

870
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 5: all right, So the life extension thing opens up like

871
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 5: the like a third thing here, which is like, obviously,

872
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 5: if you know science fiction, you know that science fiction

873
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 5: is writing about the future, But what's it really writing

874
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 5: about the present?

875
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 4: Right? Every work of.

876
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: Science fiction is ultimately commenting on its own contemporary society,

877
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: And so there is stuff that is in here, the

878
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: politics of this thing even more now than ever, like

879
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: freakily so, and we don't have to get into it,

880
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 1: but like because a lot of these plot points that

881
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 1: I came up with years ago or now like happening

882
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: in real life and it's really disturbing to me. But

883
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: the agent, like the life extension thing, that's like we

884
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 1: live in a gerontocracy, Like we live in a world

885
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: where there's a generation of people who were the first

886
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: people to hit sort of real advances in medics to

887
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 1: the boomers, right, they hit these real advances in medicine

888
00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,360
Speaker 1: that are keeping us alive longer that are allowing eighty

889
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: year olds to continue to like, not just be dead,

890
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: but continue to be alive. And when you look at

891
00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: who the leadership is of the country, we were living

892
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: in a gerontocracy, which is the rule of old people.

893
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: And I think that this is really bad, right, I

894
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: don't know how else to say it, Like, like, I

895
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: will editorialize and say that it is bad to have

896
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: leaders who are like I don't use email because I

897
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 1: don't understand email. Like, it's twenty twenty five. We've got

898
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: real problems, right, and I do not need people whose

899
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: brains were formed in the nineteen fifties to deal with

900
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 1: the issues that are facing us here in the twenty twenties.

901
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: I think they're fundamentally unequipped to do the job at

902
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: a certain point. I don't want to be agist, but like,

903
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 1: I just think that's true. So the Age the Life

904
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: extension stuff is meant to be a comment on that.

905
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: And my life extension juice is not like Fountain of

906
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: Youth stuff. It's not you get to continue to be

907
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: alive and vital and your brain still functions. These people

908
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: are staying alive, but their bodies are just kind of

909
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 1: inert vegetables. Their brains are just kind of inert vegetables,

910
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 1: Like they're not they're not at the same level they're

911
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: cognitively and physically.

912
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 4: All they are is merely alive.

913
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: And that's the thing that I think is different from

914
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: previous life extension things, which is definitely a part of

915
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: the Kim Stanley Robinson books. And you know, if you

916
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 1: read or not read, but like you watch some of

917
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:43,640
Speaker 1: the Alien prequels like Prometheus, like there's a life extension,

918
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:45,799
Speaker 1: you know, a little subplot in there with that guy.

919
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: But yeah, this is that part is almost entirely social commentary.

920
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: All Right, We're going to take a break and when

921
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 2: we get back, we'll talk about whether or not a

922
00:42:52,880 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: revolution on Mars is inevitable. So I've been wondering whether

923
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 2: or not a revolution on Mars is inevitable or how

924
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: we could avoid it at one point. So, the way

925
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 2: international law is currently set up is that if you

926
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 2: go to space, you remain the responsibility of some nation,

927
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,919
Speaker 2: but you're not allowed to own your land. It looks

928
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 2: like the international community is going to let you extract

929
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: and sell resources, but it does seem like there could

930
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: be some fundamental conflicts. If you are like living very

931
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 2: far away, but you're still governed by people on Earth

932
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 2: who don't get what your life is like. Do you

933
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: feel like with our current set up, a revolution on

934
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,040
Speaker 2: Mars would be inevitable? Or what could we do to

935
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 2: avoid a future Martian revolution?

936
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 3: Should we be shortening Martian stocks? No?

937
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, big time.

938
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: Thing is inevitable, right, Like I have to officially declare

939
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: this as a representative of the History Department. Nothing is inevitable.

940
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: Just because a bunch of stuff happened before, that doesn't

941
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: mean it's going to happen now. There are lots of

942
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: times where it seems inevitable that something happens and it doesn't.

943
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 1: There are other times where something seems unfathomably impossible and

944
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: then it just happens, And that's really what history is

945
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: all about. It sure does seem like in the history

946
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: of civilizations and colonizing civilizations that eventually those people who

947
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: are in the colonized place are going to want home rule.

948
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: And that seems to be pretty consistent across time. You know,

949
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 1: not in every time, not in every place. But you know,

950
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 1: there's a reason the America is there are a bunch

951
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 1: of independent countries and do not continue to be uniformly colonies.

952
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,319
Speaker 1: There are still a few colonies left and we've got

953
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 1: our own colonies. But yeah, that kind of thing happens

954
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: all the time. So if you actually, if we do

955
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: go to Mars and we do have the colonization of Mars,

956
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: there's definitely going to be people who were like, yeah,

957
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 1: we want Mars to be independent. And in the show,

958
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: there's a guy Jose de Petrov who this is early

959
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 1: going like before this like precursor revolutionary stuff, you know,

960
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: where he literally produced this like really influential documentary that

961
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: is that is saying exactly that, like it is inevitable

962
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: that Mars will be free, and so what we need

963
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:36,760
Speaker 1: to do as Martians is be the agents of that inevitability,

964
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: Like we need we need to be the soldiers for

965
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: this force of history that is inevitably going to give

966
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: Mars its independence. Whether it's today, tomorrow, or five hundred

967
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: years from now, it's going to happen. And then I

968
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: say in the show, of course he conveniently ignored all

969
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: the times in history where that didn't happen. But it

970
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:54,040
Speaker 1: was a very influential documentary and you know, it impacted

971
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: a lot of people. And also just like in terms

972
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: of like where people's mentalities are at us, this has

973
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,240
Speaker 1: happened so often in history that you know, our future

974
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: Martians will know that, and they will have it in

975
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,280
Speaker 1: their heads that you know, in certain times and places,

976
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: you know, people that have gone off and and done

977
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: something far away wind up running it themselves. But how

978
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: do we avoid that if we don't want the Martians

979
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 1: to have their freedom, if we want to continue to

980
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 1: have them live under the thumb of the earthlings and

981
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: the earthworms?

982
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 4: How do we do that?

983
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 2: Necessarily? What I want?

984
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 4: No, I know, I know, I picked up on the subject.

985
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 4: You you hate the Martians and you want them.

986
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:32,239
Speaker 3: To serve you.

987
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 2: They're the worst, They're.

988
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:35,439
Speaker 4: The absolutely worst. Yeah.

989
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: But when you look at sort of the example of

990
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: the United States without like unpacking the sort of the

991
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 1: genocidal way that this unfolded, the Northwest Ordinance in was

992
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: it was a pretty early document in American history. That

993
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: is what lays the foundations for the path from colony

994
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: to statehood from debate not from colony but from from

995
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: territory tist and then saying, once you become a state,

996
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,439
Speaker 1: you're an equal part of this project that we are doing.

997
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: And there is something to that, because there was an

998
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: argument at that do we take it for granted that

999
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: like this path, the statehood is a thing, But there

1000
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: were arguments at the time that like the thirteen original colonies,

1001
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: they should be the states, and then as the white

1002
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: settlers move into the interior, those should be territories that

1003
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: are primarily serving us here on the coast, like the

1004
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: real thing, like these United States, and then those are

1005
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: going to be the territories. And it was a big

1006
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: argument about whether you know, Ohio and Kentucky and Wisconsin

1007
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: would would eventually be able to become states if enough

1008
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: Anglo settlers move there. And I think that doing that

1009
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: has helped keep the country together. California, which is a

1010
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: really far away from the East Coast, especially you know

1011
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: at the time that the settlements of California are getting going,

1012
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 1: like California just became a state even though it was

1013
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 1: a whole continent away and California did not. Ever, there

1014
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: was no plausible independence movement. I mean, I'm from the Northwest.

1015
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: I know about all the little subgroups that want independence

1016
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: for Cascadia and independence for California, but there's never been

1017
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: any need for it, and so I think that having

1018
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: that kind of incorporation, legitimate incorporation, into the larger project

1019
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:19,239
Speaker 1: is how it would work.

1020
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. I keep trying to think about the best way

1021
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: to get Mars settlement started, which I don't think is

1022
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 2: going to happen in the near term. But right now

1023
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 2: I worry that we're going to have a scramble for territory,

1024
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,040
Speaker 2: which is going to lead to conflict down here. So

1025
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 2: trying to figure out a way where you don't get

1026
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,239
Speaker 2: a scramble, but at the right time without violence, you

1027
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,640
Speaker 2: give the people on Mars, you know, the ability to

1028
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: govern themselves. Is a what sounds to me like a

1029
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 2: complicated question. But I don't deal with the human stuff.

1030
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 2: I mostly deal with the science stuff.

1031
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 3: Oh, it's very trust Eelon. I'm sure he'll do it right.

1032
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, let's Tuste alone.

1033
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: Some of the things that he has thrown out there

1034
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 1: about like this is what Mars should be, Like it

1035
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: should be democratic, but you should be able to rescind

1036
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: any law with one third vote, with like, if one

1037
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 1: third of the popular opposes a law, they should be

1038
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: able to just like werecenting, It's like you're just sending

1039
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 1: people to die like that is the only thing that

1040
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: this organization of society that you are positing will actually

1041
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,160
Speaker 1: accomplish is that everybody dying and you're creating a new Roanoak.

1042
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 1: So the way I get around that in the show,

1043
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: like the scramble for territory on Mars, is it's a

1044
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 1: monopoly and there's just one company, and they have secured

1045
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 1: a monopoly at at a certain point in human history.

1046
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 1: They've secured a monopoly to all resources and territory beyond

1047
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 1: the line of lunar orbit, which you know, gets me

1048
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 1: to want, you know, for one thing, being able to

1049
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: make social commentary about life under a monopoly corporation, but

1050
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:40,600
Speaker 1: is also sort of like tipping a cap to you know,

1051
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: the line that the Pope drew that gave the Spanish

1052
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,040
Speaker 1: everything on one side and the Portuguese everything.

1053
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 4: On the other.

1054
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 1: Like the Spanish just for a while, the Spanish were

1055
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: literally claiming all of the Americas as their own territory

1056
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: because the Pope said that it was theirs, and that

1057
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 1: was a real thing that happened, and so that's that's

1058
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:57,440
Speaker 1: how I kind of wrote it into the show. And

1059
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: you know, I even said that like a couple of

1060
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 1: the corporation, the rival corporations to Omnicor that initially agreed

1061
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: to giving Omnicor this monopoly, they were just like, this

1062
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: is great. Let them claim that monopoly, because they're going

1063
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: to go try to colonize it and they're going to

1064
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 1: bankrupt themselves and they're not going to get anything out

1065
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:13,800
Speaker 1: of it. It's going to be a huge debacle. And

1066
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: so like, letting them go off and try to do this,

1067
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: we're actually securing their collapse here on Earth, and that's

1068
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: going to allow us to become more powerful, you know,

1069
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: in relation to them. And of course they were unfortunately

1070
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 1: dead wrong, and Omniicor became very very powerful because they

1071
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 1: did it, and that short didn't pay off.

1072
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 3: It did not.

1073
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 4: Now they tried.

1074
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 2: I keep hearing people say, let mus do it, he'll

1075
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: just go out there and die, and well, I think

1076
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:37,839
Speaker 2: that's high probability. I also worry about what would happen

1077
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 2: if he was successful.

1078
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 4: But there's there's no chance he gets on one of

1079
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 4: those ships, none whatsoever. Wow, Eland Musk is not getting

1080
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 4: on a ship to go to Mars. Never.

1081
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: He would never do that. He would send people to

1082
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 1: do it. He would have other people die for sure,

1083
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: but he would be like, that's too risky for me.

1084
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: And would you get on a ship to Mars?

1085
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 4: Absolutely not.

1086
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: How about New Mexico? Would you visit New Mexico? That

1087
00:50:58,920 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 3: goes great?

1088
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,319
Speaker 4: Yeah? I love in Mexico, lovely place.

1089
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 3: I grew up in New Mexico and couldn't get out

1090
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,319
Speaker 3: of there fast enough. But it is a beautiful place.

1091
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like the I think it's the

1092
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 4: outdoorsy stuff, you know, it's a good, good place for

1093
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 4: hiking and stuff.

1094
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 3: So tell us about what's next for you. You're planning

1095
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 3: to write more fiction? Is there going to be a

1096
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: Jovian Revolution inspired by Biova? Space tiring? What are you

1097
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 3: planning on next?

1098
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: At the moment, I am finishing my third book, which is,

1099
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, nonfiction about a certain period in Roman history

1100
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: where it seemed like their civilization was collapsing and that

1101
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:37,680
Speaker 1: would be irreversible and irretrievable, and then instead they pulled

1102
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:40,520
Speaker 1: themselves out of it and put themselves back together and

1103
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: went on for another couple of centuries, which I feel

1104
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: like is a pretty pertinent story that deserves that deserves

1105
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,879
Speaker 1: to be shoved into people's brains as we all doom,

1106
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 1: scroll our.

1107
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 3: Lives away a hopeful message.

1108
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, honest to God, like a hopeful message.

1109
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: And then you know, there's eight episodes left on the

1110
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,800
Speaker 1: Martian Revolution, and then when that's done, I'm going to

1111
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: restart sort of like the traditional series of revolutions, and

1112
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: I'll sort of pick it up where I left off

1113
00:52:07,560 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 1: with Russia at the end of World War one ish

1114
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,040
Speaker 1: and so like the Irish, I'll do the Irish Revolution.

1115
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: You know, Cuba will be done, maybe the Spanish Civil War.

1116
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 1: I haven't quite I'm going to be calling it as

1117
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: I see it and as I go, But there's basically

1118
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: the twentieth century revolutions are left to be covered, and

1119
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: then you know there is there future fiction.

1120
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 4: Yeah. I would sure love to do more stuff like this. Basically,

1121
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 4: the way I put it is, the people who.

1122
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: Like it love it, and I've gotten a lot of

1123
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: positive feedback about it and people saying that they really

1124
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 1: really enjoy it, and so if I can do this

1125
00:52:40,040 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: kind of thing again, that would be fantastic. Is there

1126
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 1: going to be a sequel to the Martian Revolution? If

1127
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 1: there is, it's already been coded into the show, and

1128
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:52,919
Speaker 1: you would just have to know what you were looking

1129
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 1: for to be like, oh, that's what he's doing, because yeah,

1130
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 1: the sequel is known if it happens, and it should

1131
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,760
Speaker 1: already be something that if you were really paying attention,

1132
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: or if you just happen to accidentally have a realization

1133
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 1: in your head one day. Oh, that's why he keeps

1134
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: saying that, then you know what the sequel will be.

1135
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 4: Listen carefully, focus, Listen carefully, and it's it's there. It's there.

1136
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 2: This is something we should have asked earlier. But have

1137
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 2: you written science fiction that is publicly available yet or

1138
00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:25,359
Speaker 2: was this your first science fiction?

1139
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: No, this is my first work of science fiction. This

1140
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 1: is my first work of like published fiction. I have

1141
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:34,839
Speaker 1: stuff that I did, like like independently, like little short

1142
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: story things, and I did the Three Day Novel Contest

1143
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,000
Speaker 1: a couple times, and I did record an.

1144
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 4: Audiobook of one of those. But that's like a that's

1145
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 4: like a detective story that's using all the tropes from

1146
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 4: like Raymond Chandler and stuff. But Nope, this is this

1147
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:48,960
Speaker 4: is the first science fiction.

1148
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: Got it So in the next eight weeks when the

1149
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: Martian Revolution is over, there's nothing for us to fall.

1150
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,360
Speaker 4: Back on, not fictionally, No, no, no, you no, you

1151
00:53:57,400 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 4: can no, you can't be like, oh, I love this

1152
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 4: new stuff and he's got this old stuff. I mean,

1153
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 4: you knows. Maybe I'll maybe I'll resurrect some of those stories.

1154
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 4: They're all science fiction.

1155
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:07,759
Speaker 2: E all right, well, I love the Martian Revolution. I'm

1156
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:09,880
Speaker 2: looking forward to what comes next, and I'm looking forward

1157
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 2: to the history revolutions coming back to It's all wonderful.

1158
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on the show. I

1159
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: had a really great time.

1160
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me.

1161
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We

1162
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,320
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you, We really would.

1163
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 3: We want to know what questions you have about this

1164
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 3: Extraordinary Universe.

1165
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 2: We want to know your thoughts on recent shows, suggestions

1166
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 2: for future shows. If you contact us, we will get

1167
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: back to you.

1168
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,360
Speaker 3: We really mean it. We answer every message. Email us

1169
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 3: at Questions at Danielankelly.

1170
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:49,759
Speaker 2: Dot org, or you can find us on social media.

1171
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: We have accounts on x, Instagram, Blue Sky and on

1172
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: all of those platforms. You can find us at D

1173
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: and K Universe.

1174
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 3: O'll be shy right to us. This Sally