1
00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:33,676
Speaker 1: Pushkin. I found myself skipping at home. You know, I'm

2
00:00:33,756 --> 00:00:38,596
Speaker 1: six one and I am a pretty gigantic black person.

3
00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:40,556
Speaker 1: But I had so much joy in that moment that

4
00:00:40,596 --> 00:00:43,276
Speaker 1: I literally could not contain it. And I skipped down

5
00:00:43,276 --> 00:00:47,196
Speaker 1: the entire hallway of my grandmother's house and I was like, oh,

6
00:00:47,636 --> 00:00:49,796
Speaker 1: I just skipped down that whole hallway. Huh okay, I'm

7
00:00:49,836 --> 00:00:53,316
Speaker 1: feeling myself. I'm feeling good. So it was just those

8
00:00:53,316 --> 00:00:56,876
Speaker 1: physical changes were really great, you know. It was I

9
00:00:56,876 --> 00:01:01,396
Speaker 1: don't know, that was a very magical golden honeymoon period

10
00:01:01,436 --> 00:01:06,036
Speaker 1: of being a trans man. Morgan Gibbons was assigned female

11
00:01:06,036 --> 00:01:09,516
Speaker 1: at birth. In his twenties, he underwent hormone therapy to

12
00:01:09,556 --> 00:01:13,796
Speaker 1: bring his body into alignment with his male gender identity. Initially,

13
00:01:13,796 --> 00:01:17,716
Speaker 1: he felt profound joy and liberation, but he said that

14
00:01:17,756 --> 00:01:20,316
Speaker 1: feeling was short lived when he was confronted with the

15
00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:23,396
Speaker 1: reality of being a black man in society. You know,

16
00:01:23,436 --> 00:01:28,996
Speaker 1: there was this aspect of feeling completely boxed in and

17
00:01:30,036 --> 00:01:36,196
Speaker 1: caged by womanhood and my femininity. And I broke free

18
00:01:36,236 --> 00:01:38,076
Speaker 1: of that, you know, I broke free of it for

19
00:01:39,516 --> 00:01:42,276
Speaker 1: a little while. I had a few moments in the sun,

20
00:01:42,556 --> 00:01:46,836
Speaker 1: you know, but the longer I've gone since that moment,

21
00:01:47,116 --> 00:01:50,476
Speaker 1: the more I've realized how I have become caged once again.

22
00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:56,156
Speaker 1: I'm not as free as I thought I was. I'm

23
00:01:56,156 --> 00:01:58,676
Speaker 1: Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans,

24
00:01:59,036 --> 00:02:01,356
Speaker 1: a show that dives deep into the world of change

25
00:02:01,436 --> 00:02:04,156
Speaker 1: and hopefully gets us to think differently about change in

26
00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:29,316
Speaker 1: our own lives. Morgan, I was wondering if you could

27
00:02:29,356 --> 00:02:33,876
Speaker 1: take me back to the day when you started taking testosterone. Yeah. Yeah.

28
00:02:33,876 --> 00:02:36,916
Speaker 1: So this doctor that I went to in that moment

29
00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:38,716
Speaker 1: was like just a little piece of magic to me

30
00:02:38,996 --> 00:02:42,396
Speaker 1: because he held the key to me helping unlock the

31
00:02:42,476 --> 00:02:45,276
Speaker 1: rest of who I am, or like stepping into myself fully.

32
00:02:45,756 --> 00:02:47,156
Speaker 1: And I could not wait for him to give it

33
00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:48,356
Speaker 1: to him me. I was just like, hurry up and

34
00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:49,756
Speaker 1: give it to me. Also, I could go home and

35
00:02:49,756 --> 00:02:53,476
Speaker 1: be too scared to use it, you know. And so

36
00:02:53,516 --> 00:02:56,316
Speaker 1: I was excited but kind of scared. And one of

37
00:02:56,356 --> 00:02:58,596
Speaker 1: my good friends she was like, why are you being

38
00:02:58,636 --> 00:03:00,276
Speaker 1: such a baby. I'm like, I'm not being a baby,

39
00:03:00,316 --> 00:03:03,036
Speaker 1: but like you know, that's a needle, man, that's a needle.

40
00:03:03,076 --> 00:03:05,316
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to do it myself. And she was like, Okay,

41
00:03:05,356 --> 00:03:08,276
Speaker 1: cool and like she disappeared for like three minutes, and

42
00:03:08,316 --> 00:03:10,356
Speaker 1: then she came, I can just jab me in the leg.

43
00:03:10,476 --> 00:03:12,676
Speaker 1: And I was like, wait a minute, and she was like,

44
00:03:12,756 --> 00:03:15,116
Speaker 1: there you go. I gave you your first tea shot.

45
00:03:15,516 --> 00:03:17,836
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I guess it's not that scary,

46
00:03:17,876 --> 00:03:21,916
Speaker 1: it's not that bad. And can you describe your reaction

47
00:03:21,996 --> 00:03:24,996
Speaker 1: when you first started to notice the effects at the testosterone?

48
00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:28,116
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Oh I was geeked, you know. I was

49
00:03:28,476 --> 00:03:30,076
Speaker 1: thought and I thought I was flying too, you know,

50
00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:32,356
Speaker 1: because my voice started dropping. So I started answering the phone,

51
00:03:32,396 --> 00:03:37,556
Speaker 1: like how y'all doing? Hey? How you doing? Hey? Girl? Hello? Hello? Yeah?

52
00:03:37,596 --> 00:03:40,076
Speaker 1: And I was just my mom was like, who do

53
00:03:40,116 --> 00:03:42,276
Speaker 1: you think you are? Why you got all these women

54
00:03:42,276 --> 00:03:44,356
Speaker 1: calling you? I didn't raise you like this, you think

55
00:03:44,356 --> 00:03:46,276
Speaker 1: because your voice getting deep, you can, you know, And

56
00:03:46,476 --> 00:03:49,676
Speaker 1: so I had to really kind of step back a bit.

57
00:03:49,756 --> 00:03:53,596
Speaker 1: But I was just very very ecstatic about it because

58
00:03:53,676 --> 00:03:56,516
Speaker 1: my voice started dropping quickly. You know, I got really strong.

59
00:03:57,556 --> 00:04:00,556
Speaker 1: Anything that I could pick up if it wasn't nailed down,

60
00:04:00,596 --> 00:04:02,476
Speaker 1: I was going to, especially if it was heavy and

61
00:04:02,516 --> 00:04:05,556
Speaker 1: it looked like a challenge. I was lifting my mama.

62
00:04:05,676 --> 00:04:08,476
Speaker 1: I was lifting trash cans, and I was just doing

63
00:04:08,556 --> 00:04:10,996
Speaker 1: random things, like I worked at Target at the time,

64
00:04:11,036 --> 00:04:13,036
Speaker 1: I worked in retail, had just kind of come out

65
00:04:13,076 --> 00:04:15,356
Speaker 1: of college. They're like, who's gonna take out the trash?

66
00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:18,076
Speaker 1: And like, I got, y'all, I got. I had never

67
00:04:18,876 --> 00:04:22,556
Speaker 1: ever volunteered to take out the trash before in my life.

68
00:04:24,276 --> 00:04:26,036
Speaker 1: But yeah, every time I think about it, it it makes

69
00:04:26,036 --> 00:04:28,676
Speaker 1: me smile. You know, it was I was in a

70
00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:32,356
Speaker 1: honeymoon phase very much. Though. Do you have any other

71
00:04:32,476 --> 00:04:36,356
Speaker 1: specific memories of watching your voice and body change in

72
00:04:36,596 --> 00:04:41,316
Speaker 1: those early months? You know, there was there was this

73
00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:44,236
Speaker 1: weight that I hadn't realized that I had been carrying

74
00:04:45,276 --> 00:04:47,236
Speaker 1: moving through the world, and the world seemed me as

75
00:04:47,236 --> 00:04:49,396
Speaker 1: this young black woman because at the time I started

76
00:04:49,396 --> 00:04:53,756
Speaker 1: taking testosterone and I began hormone replacement, and I just

77
00:04:53,916 --> 00:04:56,396
Speaker 1: noticed that I was letting down my guard in ways

78
00:04:56,396 --> 00:04:59,356
Speaker 1: that I never would have done before. Like, you know,

79
00:04:59,356 --> 00:05:00,956
Speaker 1: there's one time I was leaving work and I used

80
00:05:00,956 --> 00:05:03,836
Speaker 1: to work this late shift at Target, and I would

81
00:05:03,956 --> 00:05:06,316
Speaker 1: leave and it'd be pitch black by myself at like

82
00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:08,836
Speaker 1: three or four am in the morning. And so I

83
00:05:08,956 --> 00:05:13,556
Speaker 1: was always prior before I started taking testosterone, and these

84
00:05:13,636 --> 00:05:17,236
Speaker 1: changes started happening. I was very cautious. I was incredibly

85
00:05:17,276 --> 00:05:20,796
Speaker 1: cautious about any time I was alone at night. But

86
00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:26,076
Speaker 1: I realized that I didn't feel afraid, and I realized

87
00:05:26,116 --> 00:05:29,316
Speaker 1: how light it felt to not carry that fear of

88
00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:33,556
Speaker 1: gendered violence, and I had not really I guess it's

89
00:05:33,596 --> 00:05:37,476
Speaker 1: hard to recognize something you live with so constantly. But

90
00:05:37,996 --> 00:05:42,676
Speaker 1: the freedom that came with this masculine presentation, I guess,

91
00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:46,196
Speaker 1: I would say, And the way people assume I'm assist man,

92
00:05:47,516 --> 00:05:51,276
Speaker 1: it's I haven't felt that type of tension in my

93
00:05:51,316 --> 00:05:53,836
Speaker 1: shoulder since, you know, because it all just kind of

94
00:05:54,396 --> 00:05:56,636
Speaker 1: released from my body, like I don't carry I didn't

95
00:05:56,636 --> 00:05:59,516
Speaker 1: carry my keys in my hand as though I could

96
00:05:59,596 --> 00:06:02,356
Speaker 1: use them as a weapon whenever I needed to. And

97
00:06:02,676 --> 00:06:05,716
Speaker 1: I stopped doing that, And it was something I stopped

98
00:06:05,716 --> 00:06:10,596
Speaker 1: doing without realizing it. I'm wondering you can tell me

99
00:06:10,636 --> 00:06:12,876
Speaker 1: about some of the first times you noticed that people

100
00:06:12,956 --> 00:06:15,396
Speaker 1: were starting to treat you differently because of your gender.

101
00:06:15,596 --> 00:06:19,476
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you know, And so much of this was

102
00:06:19,516 --> 00:06:21,996
Speaker 1: really happening in Target. You know, Target is a microcosm

103
00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:24,516
Speaker 1: of society. You know, you see, you meet all kinds

104
00:06:24,556 --> 00:06:27,676
Speaker 1: of people in there. You really do all kinds of employees,

105
00:06:27,716 --> 00:06:29,396
Speaker 1: all kinds of people coming in there to say they're

106
00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:31,556
Speaker 1: gonna get one thing and leave with twenty, you know. Like,

107
00:06:32,516 --> 00:06:34,636
Speaker 1: so my job at Target, you know, I put the

108
00:06:34,676 --> 00:06:37,436
Speaker 1: things on the show. I was a program what they

109
00:06:37,476 --> 00:06:39,956
Speaker 1: call us program designers. They try to give us fancy names,

110
00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:41,396
Speaker 1: so we thought we I was like, I'm just putting

111
00:06:41,396 --> 00:06:45,236
Speaker 1: stuff on the show. And so Anna, who was my boss,

112
00:06:45,316 --> 00:06:47,716
Speaker 1: my team league, you know, she had the experience. I

113
00:06:47,796 --> 00:06:50,116
Speaker 1: deferred to Anna, you know, because she respected me. I

114
00:06:50,156 --> 00:06:52,876
Speaker 1: respected her and like, you got more experience, and I do.

115
00:06:52,996 --> 00:06:56,996
Speaker 1: I'm okay cool. But this young white manager came in

116
00:06:57,036 --> 00:07:00,916
Speaker 1: and he could not handle her telling him no. You know,

117
00:07:01,236 --> 00:07:03,596
Speaker 1: and if I said the same thing. I mean, we

118
00:07:03,636 --> 00:07:06,916
Speaker 1: could be standing in a circle and Anna could say

119
00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:08,916
Speaker 1: something and he would act like he didn't hear her.

120
00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:12,596
Speaker 1: He would speak over her and I would repeat it,

121
00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:14,836
Speaker 1: and he'd be like, oh, well, you know, Morgan, that's

122
00:07:14,876 --> 00:07:16,876
Speaker 1: quite a good idea, and I would have to go

123
00:07:16,956 --> 00:07:20,396
Speaker 1: Anna said it. You know, this was Anna's idea. And

124
00:07:20,636 --> 00:07:23,796
Speaker 1: you know, and when I saw that so clearly, because

125
00:07:24,356 --> 00:07:26,116
Speaker 1: it just made me mad, because it made me realize

126
00:07:26,116 --> 00:07:28,756
Speaker 1: how often it had been done to me before, and

127
00:07:28,796 --> 00:07:30,836
Speaker 1: so that was one of the first moments where I

128
00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:34,276
Speaker 1: was like, okay, and now it's in my face, you know,

129
00:07:34,396 --> 00:07:40,356
Speaker 1: And it was just disheartening in a way, um irritating

130
00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:45,996
Speaker 1: and also exhausting for selfish reasons because it's like I

131
00:07:46,036 --> 00:07:48,396
Speaker 1: have to say something. It's like, now you're interrupting my

132
00:07:48,436 --> 00:07:50,596
Speaker 1: day because I have to talk to you. Had your

133
00:07:50,636 --> 00:07:56,116
Speaker 1: manager known you before your transition or so that's so

134
00:07:56,196 --> 00:07:58,356
Speaker 1: tell me more about that, right did you? Did you

135
00:07:58,396 --> 00:08:04,436
Speaker 1: really see him change through your transition more respect and deference. Yes.

136
00:08:04,596 --> 00:08:08,956
Speaker 1: That's the wildest part is that people at that job

137
00:08:09,436 --> 00:08:13,516
Speaker 1: who knew me before, who knew me as Morgan, assuming

138
00:08:13,556 --> 00:08:16,796
Speaker 1: that I was assisted woman, they were like, oh, yes,

139
00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:20,236
Speaker 1: But as soon as my voice started dropping, as soon

140
00:08:20,276 --> 00:08:23,196
Speaker 1: as my shoulders started getting a little broad, all of

141
00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:25,316
Speaker 1: a sudden, they acted like the base in my voice

142
00:08:25,316 --> 00:08:28,516
Speaker 1: meant what I had to say was more important, or

143
00:08:28,836 --> 00:08:33,116
Speaker 1: they started suggesting that I get extra shifts, or they

144
00:08:33,156 --> 00:08:35,516
Speaker 1: started being like, why don't you apply to be a manager.

145
00:08:35,636 --> 00:08:37,876
Speaker 1: I didn't hear them asking any other women, and I

146
00:08:37,916 --> 00:08:39,436
Speaker 1: asked some of my women, did they ask you to

147
00:08:39,516 --> 00:08:41,756
Speaker 1: apply to be a manager. Some people who were just

148
00:08:41,836 --> 00:08:44,436
Speaker 1: as good as I was at the job and better,

149
00:08:44,516 --> 00:08:46,316
Speaker 1: and they were like, nuh, I didn't even know we

150
00:08:46,316 --> 00:08:48,596
Speaker 1: was going to be looking for managers. So those were

151
00:08:48,716 --> 00:08:50,836
Speaker 1: the types of things that would happened. Well, it also

152
00:08:50,836 --> 00:08:53,316
Speaker 1: seems like they didn't ask you to be a manager

153
00:08:53,516 --> 00:08:58,396
Speaker 1: a year prior. No, No, like just it was gradual.

154
00:08:58,756 --> 00:09:03,156
Speaker 1: I noticed it in increments, but because it was so

155
00:09:03,196 --> 00:09:06,036
Speaker 1: outside the realm of what I had experienced before, it

156
00:09:06,116 --> 00:09:09,516
Speaker 1: always stood out. Those little moments just always it out.

157
00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:12,316
Speaker 1: So it's just those little things, you know, and those

158
00:09:12,396 --> 00:09:16,276
Speaker 1: things accumulate over a person's lifetime. Were there parts of

159
00:09:16,316 --> 00:09:20,116
Speaker 1: you that you know, kind of privately enjoyed the benefits

160
00:09:20,156 --> 00:09:23,116
Speaker 1: that came along with this new perception. Yes, and that's

161
00:09:23,156 --> 00:09:26,596
Speaker 1: the hardest part, you know, because it does make your

162
00:09:26,636 --> 00:09:30,276
Speaker 1: life easier. That the hard part is seeing those benefits

163
00:09:30,316 --> 00:09:34,036
Speaker 1: and saying no to them. They're right there. You know,

164
00:09:34,076 --> 00:09:37,036
Speaker 1: you've talked about how people treated you differently in response

165
00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:39,476
Speaker 1: to your being a man, and that it came along

166
00:09:39,476 --> 00:09:41,636
Speaker 1: with benefits. I want to know what it was like

167
00:09:41,716 --> 00:09:44,236
Speaker 1: to be perceived as a black man. Do you remember

168
00:09:44,236 --> 00:09:49,236
Speaker 1: the first time you faced this new reality? Yeah? The

169
00:09:49,236 --> 00:09:51,516
Speaker 1: first time was when I had to deal with a

170
00:09:51,556 --> 00:09:58,556
Speaker 1: cop outside of my grandmother's house, you know. You know,

171
00:09:58,596 --> 00:10:00,676
Speaker 1: I had been I was coming home from work and

172
00:10:01,236 --> 00:10:04,396
Speaker 1: one of those late nights, fully out of my androgyna's

173
00:10:04,436 --> 00:10:08,036
Speaker 1: phase of the second testosterone, and I pulled up in

174
00:10:08,036 --> 00:10:10,556
Speaker 1: front of my grandmother's house. She had this really nice

175
00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:13,876
Speaker 1: home in this beautiful neighborhood, you know, one of those

176
00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:15,836
Speaker 1: neighborhoods where we were kind of the only pepper and

177
00:10:15,876 --> 00:10:17,596
Speaker 1: the salt shaker, at least that's how we kind of

178
00:10:17,596 --> 00:10:23,196
Speaker 1: put it. So, you know, I pull up in the driveway,

179
00:10:23,436 --> 00:10:27,596
Speaker 1: mind you, backed up into the driveway, and the sheriff's deputy,

180
00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:31,756
Speaker 1: you know, I saw him when he drove past me

181
00:10:31,956 --> 00:10:34,916
Speaker 1: to the right, and I saw him see me as

182
00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:39,356
Speaker 1: I was backing into the driveway, and then he flips around,

183
00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:40,996
Speaker 1: you know, it's a little cul de sac at the end.

184
00:10:41,116 --> 00:10:43,676
Speaker 1: He comes creeping slowly back up, you know, kind of

185
00:10:43,796 --> 00:10:46,956
Speaker 1: rolls to a stop, you know, hops out of the car.

186
00:10:46,996 --> 00:10:48,916
Speaker 1: I'm already out of the car, you know, because I'm

187
00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:50,836
Speaker 1: going in the house. This is where I live, this

188
00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:55,276
Speaker 1: is my home. And he looks at me, he goes, uh,

189
00:10:55,876 --> 00:10:59,356
Speaker 1: do you live here? What are you doing here? And

190
00:11:00,276 --> 00:11:01,676
Speaker 1: I'm looking at him like, what do you mean? When

191
00:11:01,716 --> 00:11:03,156
Speaker 1: am I doing here? I lift it. What are you

192
00:11:03,316 --> 00:11:05,716
Speaker 1: doing here? Because at this point you're standing on our

193
00:11:05,796 --> 00:11:08,676
Speaker 1: property and I can call you? And I was like, well,

194
00:11:08,676 --> 00:11:14,716
Speaker 1: I live here and I can see. You can always

195
00:11:14,716 --> 00:11:16,956
Speaker 1: tell an anti person, You can tell a scared person,

196
00:11:17,556 --> 00:11:21,396
Speaker 1: you know, and scare people do ridiculous things, scare people think,

197
00:11:21,476 --> 00:11:24,156
Speaker 1: do racist things, you know, And in that moment it's

198
00:11:24,196 --> 00:11:28,556
Speaker 1: so irritating. I have to pacify him so I can

199
00:11:28,636 --> 00:11:30,796
Speaker 1: stay safe. I'm like, I'm literally having to treat you

200
00:11:30,836 --> 00:11:34,196
Speaker 1: like a child so that I'm okay. I can't call

201
00:11:34,356 --> 00:11:37,276
Speaker 1: my grandmother because I know what she's gonna do. She's

202
00:11:37,276 --> 00:11:39,156
Speaker 1: gonna come out of the house and she's gonna raise hell.

203
00:11:39,676 --> 00:11:41,876
Speaker 1: Last thing I want is for something to happen to her.

204
00:11:41,956 --> 00:11:43,396
Speaker 1: Last thing I want us for some harm to come

205
00:11:43,436 --> 00:11:45,956
Speaker 1: to her, because what she will not stand for is

206
00:11:45,996 --> 00:11:49,196
Speaker 1: seeing me threatened in any way. He goes, well, we've

207
00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:52,876
Speaker 1: had some car breakings over here, and that come on.

208
00:11:52,996 --> 00:11:55,956
Speaker 1: Now I knew the man was lying because this was

209
00:11:55,956 --> 00:11:59,076
Speaker 1: one of those rich neighborhoods. If somebody knocked over a mailbox,

210
00:11:59,636 --> 00:12:02,036
Speaker 1: they would have put out a newsletter. They would have

211
00:12:02,036 --> 00:12:04,356
Speaker 1: been like, y'all, we got people breaking mailboxes. So I

212
00:12:04,396 --> 00:12:06,676
Speaker 1: was like, this man is lying, you know, And so

213
00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:09,876
Speaker 1: he tells me put your hands on the hood of

214
00:12:09,916 --> 00:12:12,876
Speaker 1: the car, and I know there's no reason for me

215
00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:14,476
Speaker 1: to be putting my hands on the hood of the car,

216
00:12:14,876 --> 00:12:18,956
Speaker 1: because he has no legitimate reason to be fearful. I've

217
00:12:18,996 --> 00:12:21,396
Speaker 1: told him I live here, and if he had any sense,

218
00:12:21,396 --> 00:12:23,196
Speaker 1: he could have run the tag and seeing that he

219
00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:27,036
Speaker 1: was attached to the home where I'm at. And I

220
00:12:27,076 --> 00:12:29,716
Speaker 1: think what made me so angry was the fact that

221
00:12:29,756 --> 00:12:32,156
Speaker 1: I could not fight back in the way that I

222
00:12:32,196 --> 00:12:39,316
Speaker 1: wanted to because that right there, you know, I it

223
00:12:39,436 --> 00:12:43,036
Speaker 1: was the punctuation mark. It was like a period. It

224
00:12:43,076 --> 00:12:45,756
Speaker 1: was a pause on all that joy I had been feeling,

225
00:12:46,636 --> 00:12:53,076
Speaker 1: because for him to roll up on my house, treat

226
00:12:53,116 --> 00:12:54,876
Speaker 1: me the way he did speak to me, the way

227
00:12:54,916 --> 00:12:57,156
Speaker 1: he did lie to me, make me put my hands

228
00:12:57,196 --> 00:12:59,996
Speaker 1: on the hood of the car, like I was somehow

229
00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:05,156
Speaker 1: involved in criminal activity. It's the humanizing, you know, And

230
00:13:05,996 --> 00:13:12,236
Speaker 1: it's also painful. And that's the thing they try to

231
00:13:12,276 --> 00:13:15,676
Speaker 1: take from us, is all of our emotions. You know,

232
00:13:15,796 --> 00:13:19,116
Speaker 1: don't feel the pain, get angry, you know, don't feel

233
00:13:19,116 --> 00:13:23,356
Speaker 1: the pain. Harden yourself to it. But that's painful, and yes,

234
00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:26,716
Speaker 1: my reaction in those moments is anger, but my anger

235
00:13:26,836 --> 00:13:31,916
Speaker 1: is masking that pain, is masking that dehumanization. And you know,

236
00:13:31,956 --> 00:13:37,516
Speaker 1: there was this aspect of feeling completely boxed in and

237
00:13:38,556 --> 00:13:44,716
Speaker 1: caged by womanhood and my femininity. And I broke free

238
00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:46,596
Speaker 1: of that, you know, I broke free of it for

239
00:13:48,036 --> 00:13:50,756
Speaker 1: a little while. I had a few moments in the sun,

240
00:13:51,076 --> 00:13:55,316
Speaker 1: you know. But the longer I've gone since that moment,

241
00:13:55,596 --> 00:13:58,956
Speaker 1: the more I've realized how I have become caged once again.

242
00:13:59,636 --> 00:14:07,596
Speaker 1: I'm not as free as I thought I was. We'll

243
00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:21,876
Speaker 1: be right back with the slight change of plans. About

244
00:14:21,916 --> 00:14:25,236
Speaker 1: a year after Morgan Gibbons was confronted by that police officer,

245
00:14:25,396 --> 00:14:28,916
Speaker 1: he decided to move to Washington, d C. To start afresh.

246
00:14:28,956 --> 00:14:31,916
Speaker 1: He considered a few different jobs, but ultimately decided to

247
00:14:31,956 --> 00:14:35,756
Speaker 1: follow in his grandma's footsteps. She had been a police officer,

248
00:14:35,796 --> 00:14:38,916
Speaker 1: and Morgan decided to become one too, a decision he

249
00:14:38,996 --> 00:14:41,556
Speaker 1: did not take lightly. So I spent a lot of

250
00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:45,116
Speaker 1: time kind of standing over who the police are in

251
00:14:45,156 --> 00:14:48,156
Speaker 1: reality and what I wanted them to be, which is

252
00:14:48,156 --> 00:14:50,556
Speaker 1: not what they're not that you know, But because I

253
00:14:50,596 --> 00:14:53,316
Speaker 1: grew up with my grandmother, who was a cop for

254
00:14:53,476 --> 00:14:58,036
Speaker 1: thirty years. I've always had this complex relationship with police

255
00:14:58,036 --> 00:15:01,836
Speaker 1: and authority because I know my grandma, right, she baked

256
00:15:01,836 --> 00:15:03,636
Speaker 1: cookies and then she went to put her unifor I

257
00:15:03,676 --> 00:15:05,596
Speaker 1: remember laying on the couch and she would go put

258
00:15:05,636 --> 00:15:07,996
Speaker 1: her uniform on and walk out the door. And I'd

259
00:15:07,996 --> 00:15:10,316
Speaker 1: be like, buy grandma, and like, there's cookies on account,

260
00:15:10,556 --> 00:15:14,356
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. Did you grow up with

261
00:15:14,436 --> 00:15:16,716
Speaker 1: cops or coming in out of the house. Yeah, they

262
00:15:16,716 --> 00:15:18,916
Speaker 1: were in the house all the time. We had cookouts.

263
00:15:19,556 --> 00:15:22,636
Speaker 1: These were people who I found to be kind and

264
00:15:22,756 --> 00:15:26,396
Speaker 1: warm and funny, you know. And these were people when

265
00:15:26,436 --> 00:15:28,716
Speaker 1: my grandmother's friends came in the house. I can't remember

266
00:15:28,916 --> 00:15:32,076
Speaker 1: ever seeing my grandmother's cop friends in their uniforms. What

267
00:15:32,276 --> 00:15:36,836
Speaker 1: I saw were the people outside of their jobs as

268
00:15:36,916 --> 00:15:39,716
Speaker 1: a child, you know, and so I saw them through

269
00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:43,436
Speaker 1: the eyes of a child. And my father at that

270
00:15:43,556 --> 00:15:46,956
Speaker 1: time was physically abusive. And I remember one time my

271
00:15:46,996 --> 00:15:49,516
Speaker 1: brother and I ran up the stairs to tell the

272
00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:52,636
Speaker 1: neighbors something was happening in the house, and that was

273
00:15:52,756 --> 00:15:56,196
Speaker 1: one of the last straws, I think, and my grandmother

274
00:15:56,236 --> 00:15:59,676
Speaker 1: called her friends and those cops came and they packed

275
00:15:59,756 --> 00:16:03,156
Speaker 1: up all of our stuff right then and drove all

276
00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:06,076
Speaker 1: of it to our grandma's house. And so I have

277
00:16:06,316 --> 00:16:12,316
Speaker 1: this emotional remembrance of safety in those moments that does

278
00:16:12,396 --> 00:16:16,716
Speaker 1: not coincide with reality. And so I think part of

279
00:16:16,756 --> 00:16:20,156
Speaker 1: what I had to do was grow out of the

280
00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:24,036
Speaker 1: safety I felt around particular cops as a child in

281
00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:29,396
Speaker 1: order to see policing in its fullness. What were your

282
00:16:29,436 --> 00:16:34,276
Speaker 1: goals and entering the force when I joined the police department,

283
00:16:35,796 --> 00:16:39,196
Speaker 1: you know, I was not I was not running in

284
00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:42,476
Speaker 1: there band like. You know, these people are fantastic, They're angels,

285
00:16:42,476 --> 00:16:45,876
Speaker 1: they got wings. Like I knew the history of policing.

286
00:16:45,956 --> 00:16:47,996
Speaker 1: I knew where it started. I knew its origins and

287
00:16:48,076 --> 00:16:51,436
Speaker 1: slave catching patrols and how it kind of blossomed from there.

288
00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:56,076
Speaker 1: You know, I understood how it worked in communities and

289
00:16:56,076 --> 00:16:58,356
Speaker 1: how it didn't work in white communities the same way

290
00:16:58,396 --> 00:17:00,156
Speaker 1: it works in black and brown ones. And I had

291
00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:04,196
Speaker 1: I would read about how people were treated who were

292
00:17:04,236 --> 00:17:07,956
Speaker 1: trans and queer, And at that point in my life,

293
00:17:08,036 --> 00:17:11,076
Speaker 1: I joined because I said, if police say they are

294
00:17:11,076 --> 00:17:13,276
Speaker 1: here to protect the public, then that's what we should

295
00:17:13,356 --> 00:17:15,596
Speaker 1: be doing. But we need to expand the idea of

296
00:17:15,596 --> 00:17:18,596
Speaker 1: what that protection means and what we're actually saying when

297
00:17:18,596 --> 00:17:21,836
Speaker 1: we talk about protecting people. And so I was like, Okay,

298
00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:24,716
Speaker 1: I can go in there, and you know, I guess

299
00:17:24,756 --> 00:17:27,196
Speaker 1: I can work my way up in the ranks and

300
00:17:27,436 --> 00:17:29,916
Speaker 1: maybe when I'm at a certain position, you know, I

301
00:17:29,956 --> 00:17:32,076
Speaker 1: can I can help, you know, I can do something.

302
00:17:32,116 --> 00:17:34,796
Speaker 1: I can I can tweak some things. But at the

303
00:17:34,836 --> 00:17:36,596
Speaker 1: end of it, it's that's what it's like, a tweak.

304
00:17:36,636 --> 00:17:38,756
Speaker 1: Even at that time I was saying to myself, I

305
00:17:38,756 --> 00:17:41,596
Speaker 1: can tweak some things, not realizing I was saying tweak,

306
00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:43,676
Speaker 1: not fit. So it's like, at the end of the day,

307
00:17:43,716 --> 00:17:48,796
Speaker 1: part of me seems to have recognized the impossibility of

308
00:17:48,836 --> 00:17:51,116
Speaker 1: the task. The Audrey Lord quote that we hear all

309
00:17:51,156 --> 00:17:52,996
Speaker 1: the time. Boy, you're gonna take them tools and try

310
00:17:52,996 --> 00:17:56,196
Speaker 1: to dismantles whose house you know? And so, but part

311
00:17:56,236 --> 00:18:00,476
Speaker 1: of me wanted to to make policing be what it

312
00:18:00,636 --> 00:18:04,156
Speaker 1: says it is but is not. So you were the

313
00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:08,556
Speaker 1: first openly trans policeman in the DC workforce. How did

314
00:18:08,556 --> 00:18:11,996
Speaker 1: you approach those conversations and how were you received by

315
00:18:12,036 --> 00:18:15,796
Speaker 1: the force? Had you always plan to be open about

316
00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:20,036
Speaker 1: about that. I went into the academy with the intention

317
00:18:20,076 --> 00:18:25,716
Speaker 1: of being open about it, because I do recognize the

318
00:18:25,756 --> 00:18:29,316
Speaker 1: psychology of how people's hearts soften when they know someone,

319
00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:32,636
Speaker 1: even if they don't like that person. I was like,

320
00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:35,916
Speaker 1: all right, if I'm open in the academy, you know,

321
00:18:35,956 --> 00:18:38,876
Speaker 1: and they get to know me, it will influence an

322
00:18:38,916 --> 00:18:42,316
Speaker 1: impact how they interact with trans people they meet on

323
00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:46,956
Speaker 1: the streets, because their understanding of who we are is

324
00:18:46,996 --> 00:18:50,156
Speaker 1: not based in the lies told about us. I was

325
00:18:50,196 --> 00:18:53,236
Speaker 1: hoping that they would remember a little piece of me

326
00:18:53,356 --> 00:18:56,436
Speaker 1: when they interacted with people. And I had this guy

327
00:18:56,556 --> 00:19:00,356
Speaker 1: who trained us, you know, I remember he met me

328
00:19:00,476 --> 00:19:04,116
Speaker 1: and we went through the entire week, and after I graduated,

329
00:19:04,676 --> 00:19:05,916
Speaker 1: you know, he came up to me and he was like,

330
00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:08,116
Speaker 1: you were like one of the best recruits we've had,

331
00:19:08,236 --> 00:19:10,916
Speaker 1: and you know, I just wanted to let you know that,

332
00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:13,516
Speaker 1: like you really changed me. You change how I view

333
00:19:13,556 --> 00:19:15,916
Speaker 1: things and how I go through the world. And I

334
00:19:16,036 --> 00:19:18,076
Speaker 1: was just really kind of blown away because this was

335
00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:20,956
Speaker 1: like this gruff, middle aged white guy who'd been doing

336
00:19:20,956 --> 00:19:23,236
Speaker 1: this for quite some time. He was just very rough

337
00:19:23,276 --> 00:19:28,636
Speaker 1: around the edges. But I was very very meticulous about

338
00:19:28,756 --> 00:19:31,636
Speaker 1: how I came out in the academy and who knew

339
00:19:31,636 --> 00:19:34,276
Speaker 1: what when so by the time I came out three

340
00:19:34,316 --> 00:19:37,836
Speaker 1: months into the academy to my classmates, they knew me.

341
00:19:38,356 --> 00:19:41,236
Speaker 1: And so it wasn't oh, there's a trans guy in

342
00:19:41,236 --> 00:19:42,996
Speaker 1: our class. They're like, oh, Morgans here in his trans

343
00:19:43,836 --> 00:19:47,476
Speaker 1: You know. I imagine certain police forces can foster a

344
00:19:47,556 --> 00:19:52,796
Speaker 1: kind of macho broye culture. I mean, yeah, So first,

345
00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:55,596
Speaker 1: what it was that the case? And were you included

346
00:19:55,636 --> 00:19:58,396
Speaker 1: in that bro culture? And importantly did you want to

347
00:19:58,436 --> 00:20:03,756
Speaker 1: be oh man? So, yes, it was the case. There

348
00:20:03,876 --> 00:20:11,796
Speaker 1: there was this It was It was very much machismo.

349
00:20:11,996 --> 00:20:15,836
Speaker 1: It was very much you know, all the worst traits

350
00:20:15,876 --> 00:20:18,716
Speaker 1: of quote unquote masculinity that you could kind of put

351
00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:21,036
Speaker 1: into a blender and hand a powerful badge, dude, and

352
00:20:21,356 --> 00:20:27,196
Speaker 1: a weapon. Um. And it was when I when I,

353
00:20:27,356 --> 00:20:29,956
Speaker 1: and I want to be specific, because the masculinity parth,

354
00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:34,516
Speaker 1: this this this tough guy thing, was this idea of

355
00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:37,516
Speaker 1: power and containment that you do not back down no

356
00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:41,556
Speaker 1: matter what because you're the cop. And I did not.

357
00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:44,796
Speaker 1: I didn't want to be part of that because my

358
00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:47,636
Speaker 1: whole goal was that's not how we should be doing it.

359
00:20:48,196 --> 00:20:51,156
Speaker 1: I would, honestly, you know, actually get clowned a little

360
00:20:51,156 --> 00:20:55,316
Speaker 1: bit because I did not arrest as many people, or

361
00:20:55,356 --> 00:20:58,356
Speaker 1: I would do more talking on my scenes. And if

362
00:20:58,396 --> 00:21:02,116
Speaker 1: I come at them with the way we've been taught gruffly,

363
00:21:02,676 --> 00:21:06,036
Speaker 1: you know, screaming, don't back down, be a man, quote unquote,

364
00:21:06,996 --> 00:21:08,916
Speaker 1: it's not going to make the situation better. It's not

365
00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:11,676
Speaker 1: going to solve the issue. And so it was there,

366
00:21:12,556 --> 00:21:16,276
Speaker 1: but it wasn't something that I sought to be a

367
00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:19,836
Speaker 1: part of. But I was not excluded. Yeah, I'm wondering

368
00:21:19,876 --> 00:21:23,876
Speaker 1: if you found yourself learning anything new about masculinity from

369
00:21:23,916 --> 00:21:27,116
Speaker 1: being in the police force, if it changed a relationship

370
00:21:27,156 --> 00:21:33,716
Speaker 1: with it. It did because it made me treat it

371
00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:37,516
Speaker 1: not as precious as I had before. Like, I think

372
00:21:37,556 --> 00:21:41,476
Speaker 1: that was me beginning to step more away from the

373
00:21:41,516 --> 00:21:46,116
Speaker 1: traditional ideal of masculinity, you know, being gruff and stoic

374
00:21:46,196 --> 00:21:50,436
Speaker 1: and emotion what's that you know, and kind of do

375
00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:53,116
Speaker 1: I want to act as though this doesn't affect me?

376
00:21:53,276 --> 00:21:55,796
Speaker 1: Do I want to act as though I don't know

377
00:21:55,836 --> 00:21:58,396
Speaker 1: what joy it is I do I want to behave

378
00:21:58,436 --> 00:22:01,716
Speaker 1: in those ways? And so it pushed me further away

379
00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:04,876
Speaker 1: from the traditional idea of masculinity. That was me beginning

380
00:22:04,876 --> 00:22:08,956
Speaker 1: to take the path to I think just being me

381
00:22:10,156 --> 00:22:13,996
Speaker 1: because we have to communicate, because we have to know

382
00:22:14,076 --> 00:22:17,116
Speaker 1: how to talk to one another. We have to label things.

383
00:22:17,156 --> 00:22:20,116
Speaker 1: We have to label actions that are just human actions,

384
00:22:20,476 --> 00:22:23,076
Speaker 1: things that we just do that are just inherently human.

385
00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:27,396
Speaker 1: We label the masculine feminine. That started me on that

386
00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:31,436
Speaker 1: journey of why does it matter? You know, who cares?

387
00:22:32,876 --> 00:22:35,996
Speaker 1: Why did you end up deciding to leave the police force? Gosh?

388
00:22:36,036 --> 00:22:38,436
Speaker 1: I had been on the police department for almost almost

389
00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:45,716
Speaker 1: three years, and I was just tired. Also just facing reality,

390
00:22:46,116 --> 00:22:51,636
Speaker 1: you know, just facing the uphill battle, facing how insurmountable

391
00:22:52,116 --> 00:22:55,436
Speaker 1: that was, realizing that policing would change me before I

392
00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:58,876
Speaker 1: could change it. Because if you wear a costume long enough,

393
00:22:58,916 --> 00:23:00,796
Speaker 1: you start to think it's your real clothes, you know,

394
00:23:00,876 --> 00:23:04,356
Speaker 1: And so you wear this costume of masculinity on the job.

395
00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:06,476
Speaker 1: But if you're on the job twenty four seven and

396
00:23:06,556 --> 00:23:10,516
Speaker 1: you spend so much time in uniform, you can definitely

397
00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:12,916
Speaker 1: lose yourself in the mass that you have to put

398
00:23:12,996 --> 00:23:15,676
Speaker 1: on to where And I did not like that, you know,

399
00:23:15,756 --> 00:23:19,596
Speaker 1: I had to leave. There was just there was nothing

400
00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:24,636
Speaker 1: left for me to do there except lose myself. I see.

401
00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:26,996
Speaker 1: I love to zoom out and ask you a few

402
00:23:27,076 --> 00:23:31,116
Speaker 1: questions about how you've been processing your transition over the years.

403
00:23:31,996 --> 00:23:34,236
Speaker 1: You know, your story leads me to question this idea

404
00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:37,316
Speaker 1: that we can really change on our own terms, right.

405
00:23:37,316 --> 00:23:40,356
Speaker 1: I mean, it's hard enough to make that initial change

406
00:23:40,356 --> 00:23:43,796
Speaker 1: within ourselves, but then you realize that there's this huge

407
00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:47,836
Speaker 1: second hurdle to navigate, which is that our society will

408
00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:52,076
Speaker 1: invariably respond differently to you now that you've made that change. Right,

409
00:23:52,716 --> 00:23:56,156
Speaker 1: you know, based on going through this experience, do you

410
00:23:56,236 --> 00:23:59,476
Speaker 1: think this notion of changing on our own terms is

411
00:23:59,516 --> 00:24:02,676
Speaker 1: just a fiction we've created to help us feel a

412
00:24:02,716 --> 00:24:05,876
Speaker 1: greater sense of, you know, personal agency in our lives.

413
00:24:06,516 --> 00:24:10,156
Speaker 1: And have you felt yourself hitting the limits of that agent? See?

414
00:24:11,956 --> 00:24:14,516
Speaker 1: I cannot you know, as you've said, I can't control

415
00:24:14,836 --> 00:24:17,676
Speaker 1: how other people respond to me. I cannot control how

416
00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:21,236
Speaker 1: other people, how other people treat me, you know. But

417
00:24:21,396 --> 00:24:24,756
Speaker 1: even in the midst of that destabilization, even in the

418
00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:29,476
Speaker 1: midst of these variables that I cannot control, I can

419
00:24:29,516 --> 00:24:33,876
Speaker 1: still maintain my grip on myself. Did you ever feel

420
00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:36,676
Speaker 1: like you were losing parts of yourself that you valued

421
00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:42,036
Speaker 1: because you had to? I almost did. I almost because

422
00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:48,796
Speaker 1: I am actually quite sensitive and I don't know. I

423
00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:51,236
Speaker 1: like the things that people might say are things that

424
00:24:51,276 --> 00:24:55,156
Speaker 1: women enjoy. I tend to have mostly women friends, like

425
00:24:55,236 --> 00:25:01,956
Speaker 1: I don't mind having those deep emotional conversations. But there

426
00:25:02,116 --> 00:25:04,076
Speaker 1: was a moment where I was like, oh, this is

427
00:25:04,116 --> 00:25:08,196
Speaker 1: not what men do. So there was a full almost

428
00:25:08,196 --> 00:25:09,756
Speaker 1: eight months to a year while I was like, I

429
00:25:09,796 --> 00:25:12,916
Speaker 1: guess I need to find some cisk guy friends. You know,

430
00:25:12,956 --> 00:25:15,036
Speaker 1: If this is how I'm going to be, I guess

431
00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:20,396
Speaker 1: I have to release everything that was. I almost lost

432
00:25:21,316 --> 00:25:25,396
Speaker 1: so many pieces of myself trying to fit into this,

433
00:25:25,396 --> 00:25:29,476
Speaker 1: this idea of what I thought masculinity was before I

434
00:25:29,516 --> 00:25:32,436
Speaker 1: accepted it's whatever I say it is, you know. And

435
00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:39,036
Speaker 1: it kind of forced me to think more deeply about

436
00:25:39,076 --> 00:25:41,796
Speaker 1: who I am and how I build myself and who

437
00:25:41,876 --> 00:25:45,156
Speaker 1: I want to be. Because if I can dismantle my

438
00:25:45,356 --> 00:25:49,756
Speaker 1: gender and rebuild it, why can I not dismantle other

439
00:25:49,836 --> 00:25:53,516
Speaker 1: parts and rebuild those two? And so it helped me

440
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:57,436
Speaker 1: unchain the parts of myself that I thought I had

441
00:25:57,476 --> 00:26:00,396
Speaker 1: to hide to protect them. And it's like, well, you

442
00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:03,156
Speaker 1: can come out now. Trust that I am at a

443
00:26:03,196 --> 00:26:05,516
Speaker 1: place where I can keep you safe enough. I can

444
00:26:05,636 --> 00:26:08,156
Speaker 1: keep myself safe enough. I can sit with myself in

445
00:26:08,236 --> 00:26:33,596
Speaker 1: safety and own all the parts of me. Hey, thanks

446
00:26:33,596 --> 00:26:36,276
Speaker 1: for listening. If you're enjoying A Slight Change of Plans,

447
00:26:36,356 --> 00:26:39,036
Speaker 1: please make sure to subscribe, rate and share the show

448
00:26:39,036 --> 00:26:41,556
Speaker 1: with friends and join me next week. When I talked

449
00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:44,476
Speaker 1: with Ramsey Kabaz, when he was a college student, he

450
00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:47,196
Speaker 1: woke up to what sounded like a blaring fire alarm,

451
00:26:47,236 --> 00:26:49,036
Speaker 1: and then it took me a few seconds to realize

452
00:26:49,076 --> 00:26:53,516
Speaker 1: that the sound actually wasn't coming from anywhere it was,

453
00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:56,676
Speaker 1: it was coming from inside my own head. And you know,

454
00:26:56,716 --> 00:26:59,636
Speaker 1: at that point, I knew that there was something super wrong.

455
00:27:09,316 --> 00:27:12,356
Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created an executive produced

456
00:27:12,396 --> 00:27:16,436
Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. Big thanks to everyone at Pushkin Industries,

457
00:27:16,796 --> 00:27:21,036
Speaker 1: including our producer Mola Board, associate producers David Jaw and

458
00:27:21,116 --> 00:27:25,996
Speaker 1: Julia Goodman, executive producers Mia Lavelle and Justine Lange, senior

459
00:27:26,116 --> 00:27:29,916
Speaker 1: editor Jen Guera, and sound design and mixed engineers Ben

460
00:27:29,956 --> 00:27:34,276
Speaker 1: Holliday and Jason Gambrel. Thanks also to Louis Gara who

461
00:27:34,276 --> 00:27:36,836
Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith who helped arrange

462
00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:41,476
Speaker 1: the vocals, incidental music from Epidemic Sound, and of course

463
00:27:41,636 --> 00:27:45,156
Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow

464
00:27:45,156 --> 00:27:48,476
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Shunker.

465
00:27:58,476 --> 00:28:06,116
Speaker 1: You know what, I'm a text him. I'm sorry, Mason, Bobby,

466
00:28:06,196 --> 00:28:10,836
Speaker 1: I'm doing an interview. Man, I gotta call you back. Okay, okay,

467
00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:12,036
Speaker 1: but