WEBVTT - Witcher and the Three Rules for Making a Good Adaptation 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.560 Hello. My name is Rosy Night and I'm a Buzafar. 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:08.600 That's him. 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:09.840 I'm so happy you're here. 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:13.160 Boo. Welcome back to X ray Vision, the podcast where 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:15.960 we dive deep into your favorite shows, movies, comics, at 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.840 pop culture. We are here at iHeart Podcast, where we'll 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:24.320 be bringing you three episodes a week and news on Saturdays. 0:00:24.360 --> 0:00:27.240 And in today's episode, Rosie, you and I are going 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:33.120 to be using the Witcher season four and the Netflix 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:35.600 adaptation at large sort of as a launch pad for 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:39.680 a larger discussion about adaptations, because you and I have 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.640 been chatting about good adaptations, bad adaptations. What makes them good, 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:45.640 what makes them bad? How do you do them right? 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:48.559 Quote unquote how do you do them wrong? And so 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.040 we're gonna get into that today through the lens of 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:51.479 the Witcher. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.560 Okay, ah boo. What is your preference? 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:04.120 Do you want an adaptation to be a strictly adherent 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:05.480 to the source material? 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.160 Do you like when an adaptation puts soon spin on it? 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.480 I do feel personally that that is a subjective question 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.240 that's mostly on like a case by case basis. 0:01:14.280 --> 0:01:15.600 But what are your thoughts on it? 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:20.800 Yeah? I mean, subjectively speaking, I lean toward the purest 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.319 view on this, like, especially when it comes to stories 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:27.479 that I'm already deeply attached to and that I'm quite 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:33.760 passionate about. If I'm watching an adaptation, I want it 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:36.000 to follow the story that I already know and love. 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.520 I want it to adhere as closely as it can 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:43.160 to the source material. And in fact, that is the 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.200 reason I've been turned off for many adaptations, is when 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.640 it begins to drift too far from the original characters 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:54.160 or the original plots and themes that resonated with me originally. Yeah, 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.240 if that begins to change in the adaptation, I begin 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.440 to check out, and ultimately like, there's a high chance 0:02:00.480 --> 0:02:02.880 that I'm gonna not like the adaptation if it begins 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.600 to be two different from the story that I already know. 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.720 Okay, I'm very interested to ask you then about Let's 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:15.560 talk about uh Denny's June, because I do. I love June, 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.440 and I think, like you know, I like many I'm 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.120 not like you. I've not read all the books. I 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:25.920 have not like struggled through the density of the of 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.280 the text, though I do. I do love what I've read, 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:31.400 and I've enjoyed kind of dipping into them throughout my life. 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:32.720 And I love those adaptations. 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:35.440 But I do understand, even from my brief knowledge, like, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:39.400 there are some changes that are quite like a big deal. 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:41.440 But at the same time, sure, yeah, a lot of 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:46.760 it sticks incredibly textually to the books. 0:02:46.440 --> 0:02:50.519 Right, Yes, I think the dannie Ville Love films are 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:55.800 actually an example of handling an adaptation perfectly. Are there changes? 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:56.359 Yes? 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.720 Are changes inevitable? Yes, you're changing, You're changing to an 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:04.480 entirely different medium of storytelling, and you're retelling the story 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:07.720 decades after it was originally published. There inevitably have to 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.679 be changes. And of course it's being told through the 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:14.560 lens of a different artist, right Like that that worldview, 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.959 their perspective is going to bleed into the adaptation of matter. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.960 And also eight years after it is written or something 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:22.720 you know as well, that's the other thing. It's like 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.280 decades decades later, so things have changed, Yes, But yeah, 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:30.480 what is it about the balance? How did Denny capture 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.520 and balance those two things? 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:33.200 Was it about? Like? 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.520 The tone feels so much like Dune. The themes are 0:03:36.520 --> 0:03:39.520 still there, but those little changes work. Like what was 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.320 it about it for you that made it so special? 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:46.160 I think tone and theme are what Denny nailed. When 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:51.160 it comes to Dune, It's clear that Dannyville Love deeply, deeply, 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.520 deeply understands the Dune universe and doesn't just understand it like, oh, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.200 I picked up this book and I read it once 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:58.320 and I liked it a lot. I'm going to make 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.920 a movie. He clearly has read the entire series, has 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.160 read much of the extracurricular stuff that's out there, the 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:10.960 expanded lower stuff, and so that to me shows that 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.960 there was respect and knowledge here from danny Ville Love. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.880 I think he also captured tone, and the film itself 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.880 is about the major themes that Frank Herbert was exploring 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:28.160 in the books, about fanaticism and religion and despotic leaders 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:33.280 and politics and you know, fate and predestination, like all 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:35.359 of these things are intact in the films. 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.640 I think that's a really good point because also it 0:04:38.760 --> 0:04:43.039 reminds me of another adaptation that actually did change the 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:45.720 source material like a lot, which was Watchmen. It basically 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:49.000 acted as like a sequel HBO's Watchman. But I think 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.680 in the thing that it understood was it understood the 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.400 political themes. It understood the way that it was supposed 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:59.480 to be satirizing, superho culture, fascistic policing, the way those 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:00.760 two things can come together. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:05.080 So that team was able to create something new. 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:10.159 With the characters that felt entirely thematically resonant and felt 0:05:10.360 --> 0:05:13.039 modern and updated. And I think that there is a 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.320 possibility of doing that. But the kind of deft hand 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:17.640 that you need. 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.600 Is so so. 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:25.480 Just like gentle and intricate, and like you need to 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:28.520 be able to weave those together because also sometimes it 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.160 is a case of like Jurassic Park, that was something 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.400 we talked about, right, amazing adaptation. Arguably a lot of 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.440 people would say better than the book. The first book 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.640 is a lot more like the second book that there's 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.839 a movie. Ironically, there is a lot more density, there's 0:05:41.839 --> 0:05:43.480 a lot more of what you would expect from a 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:44.200 Christim book. 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:45.760 And I love him. I love that book. 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.279 But with Jurassic Park, I think it was kind of 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:52.680 ironically an incredible streamlining of a great idea and now 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:55.240 the themes are there. It's not about science gone wrong, it's 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.840 about science gone right. But it's about greed, but it's 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:01.640 about should you. It's about all the same things. But 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.919 what they managed to do in Jurassic Park was streamline 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.680 it into like a blockbuster monster movie, and that's also 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.880 very interesting, like you can even change genre a little 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.520 bit if you end up in a space because the 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.200 original Jurassic Park is a sci fi thriller, as most 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:18.360 of Crichton's books are, but there are moments I think 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:21.479 a lot about the Sam Jackson wrapped arm on his 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.599 shoulder that feel fully like horror, you know, And I 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.600 think that's because they understood what needed to be done 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:31.000 from a dinosaur movie, something we hadn't had a popular 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.280 one off since like the fifties, you know, obviously other 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.080 than like kind of sitcommy dinosaur X stuff, but not 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:40.560 like a thrill ride. So I think those are really interesting. 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:43.120 I also think it's kind of funny how time changes 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:47.000 things because Lord of the Rings we all loved it, right, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:49.960 but as kids there were definitely, like when I was young, 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.240 there was a lot of nitpicking about like, oh, there's 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:56.839 not enough singing, why don't they have the singing, why 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.560 don't they have the long food sessions, why don't they 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.279 get into the stuff that is in the appendices? And 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.840 then ironically, you know, when Amazon decided, okay, well we'll 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.640 just do that, that didn't work, you know, for for 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:10.560 most people. I am a Rings of Power fan. I've 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.640 talked about it. I like the show, I really enjoy it. 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.520 Why not make a big swing, Why not tell me 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.200 more about these characters? Sure, but it's funny what you 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.640 can sometimes I think adhering too much to those little 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.840 details that fans love, the songs, the hobbits, hairy feet, 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.559 these things that you know, super fans are complaining about. 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:31.160 Sometimes if you focus too much on that, you actually 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.880 lose what is at the core of it, which is 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:35.920 kind of this adventure story or whatever. 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:36.800 Appeals to people. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:40.480 So it's really interesting how these things change, because obviously 0:07:40.480 --> 0:07:41.840 now a lot of the Rings is seen as like 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.880 the ultimate, almost perfect adaptation, you know, even though there 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:47.320 are definitely big changes. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:51.040 Well, I know that. Let's talk about some some less good. 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:54.160 Let's talk about the one that really inspired this conversation, 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:55.080 which was. 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.040 Sure, yeah, the Witcher, the Witch. 0:07:58.320 --> 0:07:59.160 Let's talk about it. 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.560 So tell me more about your fandom of the Witcher 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:05.760 and how you came to the Witcher before the show, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:07.880 because you do have like a distinct knowledge of the 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:10.360 law and the novels and the games and stuff. 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:15.520 Right, Yes, absolutely, I love the games I was actually 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.960 introduced I'm sure, like many people to the Witcher through 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.600 the video games, and actually not the Witcher three. I 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:25.880 played the Witcher one was just not a great video. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.280 Actually it's pretty outdated and bad. Which Are two is great? 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.200 Witch Are three is maybe one of the most legendary 0:08:31.240 --> 0:08:34.680 video games of all time. That's how people are usually 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:37.199 introduced to the Witcher. They realize, wait, these are based 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.440 off of books. Let me read the books, and that's 0:08:39.440 --> 0:08:42.920 when you realize the games are actually completely disconnected from 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.200 the books. It just takes the characters in the setting. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.840 The games are not canon in any way, to be clear, 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:53.920 but the books themselves are great, and the games adapt 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:56.160 the books by doing hitting all of the things that 0:08:56.200 --> 0:08:59.000 you and I have been talking about, perfectly, nailing the characters, 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:02.360 the tone, the themes, many of the ideas, setting it 0:09:02.760 --> 0:09:05.880 in a world that feels so in line with the original. 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.000 And that's one big reason the games are so popular 0:09:09.080 --> 0:09:11.880 as well, because of the great setting and great characters. 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.120 The books are also great. I'm a big fan of 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.560 the games, I'm a big fan of the books. I 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.800 ran a very popular Witcher podcast for many years that's 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.680 now sort of been on hiatus because I'm past that 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:27.240 Witcher phase in my life. And you know, I thought, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.520 for the first season the Witcher TV show, while not perfect, 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.000 I had my qualms with it. I had my nitmix. 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:39.800 While not perfect, I think it was a good start, 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.560 and I was hopeful that we would continue to see 0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:45.680 the show grow into itself, kind of find its voice, 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.160 really establish that its strengths as an adaptation of the material, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.280 because it was doing a pretty good job in season one. 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:54.680 I think by the time we got into season two, 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:59.760 we started to diverge greatly from the source material. Season 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.679 one certainly had its divergences, but that could be explained 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.000 away because we're a TV show. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:06.959 Now change some things, different format, different medium, you need 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:07.559 to change it. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.400 Like sure, right, But I think seasons two, certainly, by three, 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.120 and now that we're into four that just came out 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.000 this year, while we are still borrowing many things like 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:23.120 overarching plotlines and characters from the books, the way they 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:28.240 are interpreted and portrayed and the way the story is 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.960 told has diverged dramatically from the source material in ways 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.760 that to me no longer honor the themes and ideas 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:40.840 of the original stories. And so the show does not 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.360 resonate with me in the same way that the books did, 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.360 and it doesn't expand at the universe and let me 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.240 live in it like the games did. And so unfortunately, 0:10:50.440 --> 0:10:55.240 I'm sort of a a former Netflix which your show fans, you. 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.000 Know what, you gave it a try. 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.439 You gave it a try, and I think that that's 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:02.480 the thing. And I'm really excited to come back after 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.320 the break because i have a different Netflix show where 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.280 the changes they made really worked for me, and it 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:08.000 got canceled. 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:10.120 So I'm excited to talk about that after the bak 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.240 and we're back. Aboo, welcome back. 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.000 Thanks to those adverts that you definitely listen to, guys, 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.920 me and a boo back, We're here, and yeah, Mark 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.160 for me, I totally feel you on the Witch. I've 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:39.920 played some of the games, not like finished. I think 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:42.040 they're great. I actually read the first book. I thought 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.480 it was really enjoyable. I watched a Netflix show. It 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:46.640 just never really caught me in the same way it 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.000 caught other people, but I thought it looked great. Around 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.199 the similar time Netflix launched, I think it was maybe 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.439 twenty eighteen. The end of twenty eighteen, they launched a 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.000 shadow and Bone, which was an adaptation of the Lee 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:03.240 Bardugo books that I love. But with that adaptation, Lee 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:05.600 essentially went, hey, guys, I wrote this ten years ago. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.720 I was young. It was my first ever book. I 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:08.800 didn't really it was. 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.080 Inspired by her own you know, I think it's like 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:16.480 Slavic folklore heritage. So she was like, I want to 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.120 reimagine this when we make it. I want to bring 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.600 on Asian American writers. I want to make sure that 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.199 this kind of fictionalized version of Asia that they had 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:29.240 in it. That she decided to make the character Elena 0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.040 the main character, ended up making her that she was 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.240 from that space, but also from the kind of generic, generic, 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.800 you know, white Europe space, and there was this very 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.640 interesting care put into that season. They also built in 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.800 characters from the spinoff books, which were, you know, really popular, 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:50.080 more popular arguably than Shadow and Bone. Six Crows and 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.960 Crooked Kingdom still highly recommend. That was the kind of 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:57.240 I did a lot of coverage on that shows too, 0:12:57.280 --> 0:12:58.800 so I had a lot of insight, but the kind 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:01.679 of conversations they were having creatively, I was just like, Oh, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.880 these are people who deeply care about the show, and 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.400 obviously Lee is the creator, so there is an authorship 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:09.960 thing there where she is involved, but she's involved in 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.000 the way unlike some other YA authors where you're like, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.640 I'm so glad you're thinking about stuff like this. And 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.959 both seasons of the show are amazing, but Netflix is 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.160 notorious but not really advertising past the first season in 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.199 the same way second season. We never got the third 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:27.240 and we never got the Sixercro's Ketadam spinoff. 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:28.760 But that's one where for. 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:34.640 Me, those Hollywood changes, those adaptation changes, those medium changes, 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:38.080 that timeline that had passed. She reacted to it in 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.040 a way that just made the work so much better 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:42.800 for me, and I was like, how I read it? 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:44.880 And those are the versions of the characters I see. 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:47.040 So I think there is a version like Watchmen like 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:50.720 that where it can be expansive. But also I think 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.320 the problem with Netflix in general that it's had is 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:56.000 like there is also a genericness to some of the 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:57.760 stuff that they put out, and I do think The 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:03.600 Witcher fell into looking like a Netflix original that didn't 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.160 necessarily give it the space as something like this to 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.079 show that we I think like season one foundation, I 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:10.760 thought it was good, right, it was fine, but it 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:15.400 was very different but season two off, where they really 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:17.720 broke out and just be able to go crazy, that 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.000 was such an incredible season of TV. And I think 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:24.400 often something like The Witcher it needs more space outside 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.520 of that, you know, the Netflix format to really have 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.720 like a crazy wild second third season where you can 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.400 expand outside. And but yeah, it's such a complicated thing. 0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:37.400 But Aboo, you do have some quite good rules. You 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:40.320 have some quite strict rules. Let's talk about your rules. 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:43.240 What are your top three Aboo rules for adaptations. 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.480 Okay, so I'm curious how much you agree or disagree 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:46.640 with that. 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:47.240 I'm excited. 0:14:47.600 --> 0:14:50.480 I came up with three. I'm here to be I'm 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:53.640 interested in hearing your takes. Rule number one, I think 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.520 when you're making an adaptation, you do not change the characters. 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.440 I don't think there's any reason to make dramatic changes 0:15:02.480 --> 0:15:09.360 to characters, except where there are instances like in in 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:13.440 the Shang Chi franchise, where there are obviously characters with 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:15.920 extremely racist, problematic origins. 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:16.680 I infer. 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:23.280 There's all historically racist stuff that needs to be recontextualized. 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:28.080 And so recontextualizing that modernizing that I think in that instance, sure, 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.800 that's absolutely aokay. But even then I would say that 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:37.240 is a case by case consideration because sometimes the problematic 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.720 origins of a character is the entire point of that character. 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:44.040 Because also I would say, like you make a great 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:46.920 point someone like Luke Cage, for example, right, a character 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:47.800 that came out of. 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:49.520 The Black Exploitation explosion. 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.360 Definitely there are some elements of that story where you 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:56.160 could look back at it and be like, Okay, this 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.280 is kind of problematic, like I see where you're coming from. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.200 Lots of white guys writing on this, but it found 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.320 its own audience, and because there was not a lot 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.120 of representation at the time, it ended up becoming this 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.120 very powerful thing. And I think that the Netflix show 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:11.800 did a great job of playing. 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.880 With both the power man history of it. 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:16.920 Or there's this great moment where he kind of runs 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.440 through a laundry kind of space while he's escaping and 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:22.360 he ends up with the yellow shirt and this kind 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:28.040 so they play into the corny past while still modernizing 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.720 it for the future and not leaving that character there. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.120 So I agree, I think case by case basis. I 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.520 am also like you know, for me, I think as well, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.400 like the notion of what changes of character is all 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:41.720 to do with how good the writing is, how good 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.800 the casting is. So for example, Doctor Manhattan Yah yah 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.560 Abdolmaine the second like, that's one of the greatest castings 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.640 of all time, greats reveals of all time. 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:51.880 So well done. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.840 And you could argue that it is a different character 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:57.960 because this is a Dr Manhattan who is more emotionally understanding, 0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.160 emotionally available. He's been a live longer, he's found someone 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.560 that he feels like is worth you know, being human 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:08.840 for so but again works because of the rest of 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.080 the peace and everything around it. Okay rule number two. 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:17.359 Okay, rule number two. I think it's extremely important for 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:22.880 any creator to understand the original author or original creator's intent, 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.520 whether or not you agree with it. You need to 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.720 at least understand the author's intent originally, and then I 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:31.919 think you need to do your best to stick to 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.560 the same overarching themes and ideas that were presented in 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:39.199 the original story. I strongly believe that obviously, like it, 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.400 someone put words to paper because they had some worldview 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.000 or some part of the human experience they wanted to 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.800 capture and share in their story. And I don't think 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:53.800 it's like the person adapting adapting its job to completely 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.400 change that to decide this story is about something else. 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:58.240 Now, yeah, I agree. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:00.680 So what I really love about this all as well 0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:03.600 is I think again it's all about you know, it's 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:04.000 so funny. 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.480 I bring up Watchmen so many times of this conversation because. 0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.239 The reality is guys like me too, but also like 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.840 it's really funny because like when I have a lot 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:15.600 of controversial feelings about it, because like you know, we've 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:16.960 talked about this a lot on the podcast, but the 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:21.880 IP was essentially stole them from Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons, Yes, 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.200 but like it ended up being something that was worked 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:27.879 out via Alan Moore giving all of his rights and 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:30.720 royalties to Dave, and now Dave does these adaptations and 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.400 I love that for him, but like thematically, I love 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:36.800 this because I do think that the thing reason Watchmen 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:38.760 works so well is it understands what Alan Moore was 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.879 doing even when some of the comic book readers maybe didn't. 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:44.600 And I think another great example of this of how 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.720 you can make this work even if you don't agree 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.920 is like something like poor Verehoven's Starship Troopers, which adapts 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:53.720 a very racist book, like the book is Hella racist 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:58.439 that's super paramilitary pro everything. And what Verehoven did is 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.480 he essentially adapted it so to the notes of the 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:03.000 book that. 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:05.240 It became a satire of itself. 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:09.720 She's the point, right, So you can even disagree and 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.760 show your disagreement by saying, hey, what does this look 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:15.440 like when you really put it up there? As this 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.760 person is saying, and I think this comes up with 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:20.879 another thing that I know is super important to us 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:23.680 both growing up, which is Harry Potter is like, actually, 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.679 you actually sometimes like you shouldn't change that, because guess what, 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:28.960 that's how we know she sucks. 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:30.320 Like you go back in the books. 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:32.159 You read the names she gave people, You read the 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:34.800 fact that she's making the Irish kids power being blowing up. 0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:38.240 Guess what when you adapt that, stick to it, stick 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:40.000 to your guns. If you want to adapt her, that's 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:43.200 what you're adapting. So I kind of love this. There 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:45.480 are times you can change the text, but at all 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.400 times like, why are you telling the story if it's 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.919 not about those themes or at least in reaction to 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:52.480 those themes. 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.160 Yes, at least in reaction an understanding of the original 0:19:56.160 --> 0:19:58.320 intention of themes is I think critical to. 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.560 Him That's why I think something like this goes back 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.600 to our you know, we've had this conversation on our 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:07.320 anime adaptation episode. But I would say something like Ghost 0:20:07.359 --> 0:20:10.000 in the Shelle, Dragon ball Z. Those remakes are bad 0:20:10.040 --> 0:20:12.440 for many reasons in America, but mostly because they can 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:14.240 textually do not understand the theme. 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.639 That's the most interesting thing. It's like, yeah, the casting 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:19.000 is bad, the movie is badly made. 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.160 They think they can just go action movie, but it's 0:20:21.200 --> 0:20:23.320 Dragon ball Z or action movie but it's Ghost in 0:20:23.320 --> 0:20:25.080 the Shell. But Ghost in the Shell is about the 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:29.680 demilitarization of Japan and how Yeah, then that forced them 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:32.639 into this technological space like there's so much there that 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:34.640 you can't just go okay, yeah, I'm just making it. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.560 Yeah, it's not just a rapper and an IP to 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:41.480 make whatever movie you want to make, totally, and it's 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.200 about engaging with the original text. 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:45.720