Speaker 1: Lovett. Heinz Junior is a longtime artistic director of the
Speaker 1: Philadelphia Clef Club of Jazz and Performing Arts. He's a
Speaker 1: staple of the city's jazz scene, and through his work
Speaker 1: as a music educator, he's mentored everyone from bassist Christian
Speaker 1: McBride r and B singer Belave, and various members of
Speaker 1: the roots, including drummer Questlov and tuba player Damon Bryson.
Speaker 1: In short, he's truly a Philadelphia legend, and he got
Speaker 1: his start at the United House of Prayer for All People.
Speaker 1: By the time he was in high school, he was
Speaker 1: playing saxophone in the church shout band alongside some of
Speaker 1: the city's top musicians, and he credits the education he
Speaker 1: got there to making him the musician he is today.
Speaker 1: Shout music is particular to the United House of Prayer
Speaker 1: and to Daddy Grace. It's joyful music meant to bring
Speaker 1: listeners into worship. It's also very, very danceable. Mister Hines
Speaker 1: was kind enough to talk to me about what it
Speaker 1: was like playing in the House of Prayer bands and
Speaker 1: how he sees the legacy of shout music carry on today.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being with me today. I'm
Speaker 1: so so honored to be able to talk to you
Speaker 1: and get into this conversation about the music. As I've
Speaker 1: been doing my research on Daddy Grayson and the United
Speaker 1: House of Prayer and their impact and what has been
Speaker 1: accomplished over the years, the thing that stands out to
Speaker 1: me over and over and over again is the music.
Speaker 1: And you know, Daddy Grace not only a spiritual leader,
Speaker 1: but I consider a marketing genius and an entrepreneurial wizard
Speaker 1: who just understood the power of music and the power
Speaker 1: in which music can not only draw people in with
Speaker 1: sound and joy, but how it reaches people on a
Speaker 1: spiritual level and how it touches them on a spiritual level.
Speaker 1: So in starting off, I'd love for you to tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about your own experience and your
Speaker 1: connection with the United House of Prayer.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I think I talked about my beginnings. You know,
Speaker 2: I started to play piano. I was made to start
Speaker 2: to play piano by my mother. You know, we grew
Speaker 2: up in the Philadelphia right a black neighborhood, and you know,
Speaker 2: she started going to church. So when I got six
Speaker 2: seven years old, she was already in church. In essence,
Speaker 2: you know, the House of Prayer was our church, and
Speaker 2: the music actually pulled her in. So when I was
Speaker 2: made to take piano lessons, invariably my first.
Speaker 3: Teacher was from the House of Prayer.
Speaker 2: Well neither Bradley, who would turn out to be my
Speaker 2: music teacher, was the most I guess, prolific, you know, intelligent,
Speaker 2: most talented.
Speaker 3: Musician at the church.
Speaker 2: Okay, she was one of those females that was with pianists.
Speaker 2: But then finally or later she could play trumpet, they
Speaker 2: could play, you know.
Speaker 3: She choose not to play.
Speaker 2: In the band because the band was considered you know,
Speaker 2: the guys, you know, a band, but she played piano.
Speaker 2: She was the choir director, and she gave me such
Speaker 2: a strong foundation in music that carried me the rest
Speaker 2: of my life. Everything I did was based on that
Speaker 2: foundation of the fundamentals of music that I learned from her. Okay,
Speaker 2: by going to the church, I had a chance to
Speaker 2: see the band, and growing up in the House of Prayer,
Speaker 2: that's all we all young people, right we can six
Speaker 2: years old, seven eight years old. We couldn't join the band,
Speaker 2: but we were influenced by it, you know, so we
Speaker 2: would roll up magazines and play you know and pretend
Speaker 2: that we had a horn or something. And so when
Speaker 2: I told my mother said I want well born, she said,
Speaker 2: well what you want and I said, I want to
Speaker 2: play some sacks.
Speaker 3: Kid. I really meant trumpet, but I was saying it wrong.
Speaker 2: So they bought me a saxophone and that became my
Speaker 2: instrument and my teacher on The first teacher on saxophone
Speaker 2: was jan Nita Bradley's husband, Eugene Radley. And so I
Speaker 2: would go study piano for a hour and then get
Speaker 2: up from the piano and study saxophone four hours.
Speaker 3: And that's where it started.
Speaker 2: And I would take that, you know, and play in
Speaker 2: the church band.
Speaker 1: Mister Hines joined the House of Prayer band when he
Speaker 1: was in high school in the late nineteen fifties. Daddy
Speaker 1: Grace passed away in nineteen sixty, so their time didn't
Speaker 1: overlap too much, but he does remember how special it
Speaker 1: was when the bishop would come into town.
Speaker 2: When Daddy Grace came to town, all the bands gathered, so
Speaker 2: you would have bands on each side, so it was
Speaker 2: a like a music festival. Be at three churches in
Speaker 2: Philadelphia at South Philadelphia, they had a church out of
Speaker 2: West Philadelphia and then the North Philadelphia church was closest
Speaker 2: to our neighborhood, so that's the church I went to.
Speaker 2: And each one of them had a band, so and
Speaker 2: they would compete against each other, you know, so we
Speaker 2: call them the shout bands. And the different churches was
Speaker 2: made up of trombones, maybe a trumpet, you know, but
Speaker 2: maybe trombones, baritone horns, tubers best, definitely tubers of course,
Speaker 2: drum set well to South Philadelphia, that particular band at clarinets,
Speaker 2: several saxophones, you know. So it was really a comparable
Speaker 2: band that you was finding any school, any college band.
Speaker 1: Can you just break down for us shout music? What
Speaker 1: exactly is shout music? What's the structure of it?
Speaker 2: Well, the shout music is when the band plays a song.
Speaker 2: They start off with a song, the recognizable song, the
Speaker 2: song that someone sings. It's a song, so you'll recognize
Speaker 2: the song right away.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 2: Then the band goes into the shout part. The shout
Speaker 2: part is simply standing on one chord. The chord doesn't
Speaker 2: change it. It's not melodic where the song goes up
Speaker 2: and down.
Speaker 3: Now, what they.
Speaker 2: May do inside the shout they'll do maybe a change
Speaker 2: right may go to another key right to get a
Speaker 2: different feeling.
Speaker 3: They may have one change.
Speaker 2: Like when I talk about chord changes in the melody,
Speaker 2: you're gonna have several chord changes in the shout.
Speaker 3: You're not gonna have that many.
Speaker 2: So you're hearing the same thing over and over and
Speaker 2: over and over again. Now, this is the power of
Speaker 2: black music. Okay, And it's so so subtle, but it's
Speaker 2: so amazing.
Speaker 3: You know, James Brown can do it.
Speaker 2: Yay, James Brown can play the same thing over and
Speaker 2: over and over and you had danced as long as
Speaker 2: the music is being played. Hey, you can hear another
Speaker 2: band playing maybe like Amendment James Brown.
Speaker 3: And then after a while it gets boring. You stop moving.
Speaker 3: You sit there, right. That's the power of the shout.
Speaker 2: The shout is that that element that's the most spiritual
Speaker 2: part of the song. That's the part that moves continuously, continually.
Speaker 3: And you do.
Speaker 2: Subtle things, you build you subdue sound, you know, deprescendo, presciendo,
Speaker 2: you know, the drums, the leader if he feels it,
Speaker 2: or two leaders, whatever it is in the house of prayer,
Speaker 2: you know you'll feel that.
Speaker 3: But that's that shout.
Speaker 2: One of the things that I found out in just
Speaker 2: studying that.
Speaker 3: You know. I said, well, the shout of the vamp
Speaker 3: itself is like a.
Speaker 2: Continuous poor the continuous musical movement.
Speaker 3: It started in Africa. But this rhythms with the drums, so.
Speaker 2: You haven't even a lot of but that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: The drum plays a major part in that. So if
Speaker 2: you're playing a shout and you have a drummer that's inconsistent,
Speaker 2: the people feel it okay. In spiritual terms, you know,
Speaker 2: the music has the you know, that continuous feeling. We
Speaker 2: talk about that passion, that feeling in the music that
Speaker 2: has to stay there whatever it takes, whatever James Brown
Speaker 2: does to keep his music flunky.
Speaker 1: Mister Hines also told me about how special the annual
Speaker 1: Convocation time was for band members.
Speaker 2: One of the great opportunities in the House of Prayer
Speaker 2: for a young musician of the convocation, the comvoication is
Speaker 2: when the churches would travel from church to church throughout
Speaker 2: all the states that the House of Prayer existed. So
Speaker 2: you consequently you can start from New Hampshire to New York, Philadelphia,
Speaker 2: the Baltimore to Washington, right, and that opportunity if you
Speaker 2: had a band, the band would travel and play all
Speaker 2: of those places, and each one of these churches, in
Speaker 2: each one of these states, in these House of prayers,
Speaker 2: all of them had a unique sound, you know, although
Speaker 2: they were basically playing the same style of music, but
Speaker 2: their approach was totally different. And I don't think any
Speaker 2: other church during that period had that kind of structure
Speaker 2: and that type of we say ritual in the way,
Speaker 2: but it was much more than that, and that was
Speaker 2: the brainchild of Daddy Grace, you know, the power of
Speaker 2: the convocation, and that Sunday would have a bade and
Speaker 2: a baptism. If it was in Newport, News, the baptism
Speaker 2: would happen at the ocean or the League, or or
Speaker 2: the natural water body. If it happened in the North
Speaker 2: like New York City, Philadelphia, it would happen under the
Speaker 2: Bronman's holes.
Speaker 3: And then you had the band playing bottle water. But
Speaker 3: that was the impact.
Speaker 2: So it was structure, it was formatting, you know, it
Speaker 2: was the instrumentation or all of those elements made for
Speaker 2: a really really strong experience and it didn't happen in
Speaker 2: any other church except the House of Prayer.
Speaker 3: Beautiful.
Speaker 1: Do you have any stories specifically about Daddy Grace and
Speaker 1: his connection with the music and the House of Prayer.
Speaker 1: I do know that he did play piano. I know
Speaker 1: that he was a major music lover, and I do
Speaker 1: know that there are some songs that are attributed to him.
Speaker 1: Whether or not he actually wrote them or not, we
Speaker 1: don't know. But I'm curious to see what you might
Speaker 1: know about specifically how he influenced the music directly.
Speaker 2: From my point of view, is when he started the
Speaker 2: church someplace along the way he was that came up
Speaker 2: because he started that.
Speaker 3: What did he hear.
Speaker 2: When he established a band to bring that element into
Speaker 2: the ritual? You know, and it's I can go back
Speaker 2: in surmise, Okay, Well he was listening to New Orleans jazz, okay,
Speaker 2: because that's basically where that New Orleans found with the
Speaker 2: brass bands came from, you know, but it had a
Speaker 2: more How did he integrate that into the service. One
Speaker 2: of the things that he brought them anything. If you
Speaker 2: look at a producer, you know, the job as a
Speaker 2: producers take music and put it together so it becomes
Speaker 2: this really impactful element. You know, all the pieces, what
Speaker 2: the horn is going to do, what the singer is
Speaker 2: going to do, with the backup singers going to do
Speaker 2: so if you look at it from a church ritual standpoint,
Speaker 2: to bring the band in okay, because he could actually say,
Speaker 2: I just want a piano player, I just want Oregon player,
Speaker 2: I just wanted trump But he could have picked any
Speaker 2: sort of instruments. What I'm saying is that he was
Speaker 2: a great producer. He was in massario of sound. You know,
Speaker 2: he knew the elements that he wanted to make his
Speaker 2: service something special, and he wanted that music to be
Speaker 2: more than just a singular instrument. You know, he wanted
Speaker 2: to be something that would be special but resonate with
Speaker 2: people wherever that came from. So it's a little bit
Speaker 2: of jazz if it came from New Orleans, and a
Speaker 2: little bit of gospel, and he integrated that and that
Speaker 2: became actually the signature.
Speaker 3: Of the House of Prayer.
Speaker 1: I do want to tell you this one thing that
Speaker 1: in the research that I've done, I can tell you
Speaker 1: that a lot of what I see Daddy Grace, what
Speaker 1: he implemented, did come from his Cape Verdian roots. So
Speaker 1: for example, the marching bands, the processionals, that's very much
Speaker 1: a part of the church structure. There you know, the drum,
Speaker 1: the drumming going down both traditional you know, what we
Speaker 1: would consider African drumming, and also drums in the way
Speaker 1: that we see them today with a drum kit. Those
Speaker 1: are part of the church celebrations and rituals in Kabalvid
Speaker 1: And when people first came over, they started doing these bands.
Speaker 1: It's a band called the Cape Verdian Ultramarine Band, which
Speaker 1: very similar to what you see in New Orleans. But
Speaker 1: I feel like it's an interesting convergence of just all
Speaker 1: these different African elements, same origin, different branches, and it
Speaker 1: all kind of came together. And so in looking at that,
Speaker 1: you know, it all makes sense to me, this idea,
Speaker 1: all of these elements, you know, the colin response, the repetition,
Speaker 1: all of these things going into trance with the music.
Speaker 1: This is the root of this is Africa. So when
Speaker 1: I look at Daddy Grace and I look at how
Speaker 1: things unfolded for him, I do think that his Cape
Speaker 1: Verdian origins had a lot to do with it. And
Speaker 1: then when I thought about what else was happening in
Speaker 1: New Bedford and on the scene at the time. So
Speaker 1: my grandfather's first cousin is Paul Gonzalves, and there was
Speaker 1: also this interesting convergence of Cape verdie and musicians that
Speaker 1: were in the jazz era and started to play. They
Speaker 1: were going to Harlem, they were playing, you know. Obviously
Speaker 1: Paul Gonzobs was playing with Duke Ellington. So it's really
Speaker 1: interesting to see how all these things came together and
Speaker 1: the different elements just blended into one, and you know,
Speaker 1: and here we are today.
Speaker 3: So whoa Okay, well, see taught me a lot. I
Speaker 3: would write that down.
Speaker 1: What are some of the cousins or the offshoots or
Speaker 1: the influences that are now in popular secular music that
Speaker 1: specifically are related to shout music.
Speaker 2: Musicians are still coming out of that, you're ause of bread.
Speaker 2: So that's his lasting legacy from the cultural standpoint, because
Speaker 2: each one of those bands, you know what you know,
Speaker 2: I knew about the Philadelphia Band, but we were talking
Speaker 2: about each one of those bands had a legendary player,
Speaker 2: you know, that did certain things to keep that band developing.
Speaker 2: They had their own identity, you know. And one of
Speaker 2: the things I think is so important about this story.
Speaker 2: If you have Daddy Grace as the nucleus, you know,
Speaker 2: the son as it can be, you know, and all
Speaker 2: these radiations that came out from the choirs and the
Speaker 2: singers and pianists and all those other people. Each one
Speaker 2: of these places had their own unique stories of excellence.
Speaker 2: Today you have in that House of Prayer band in
Speaker 2: South Philadelphia. The person who I studied under, you know,
Speaker 2: my leaders then when I was with fourteen fifteen, was
Speaker 2: Ob Bryson. Now let's look at the Bryson family. Ob
Speaker 2: just sticking with him, his son Eugene Bryson Kay. Then
Speaker 2: Eugene had three sons. One was Damiens k Jervayne and Jermaine.
Speaker 2: Jermaine is playing with Cooling the.
Speaker 3: Gang, okay h Jermain and they have a group called
Speaker 3: Mosaic Flow.
Speaker 2: And Damien he's playing on television every night, playing with the.
Speaker 3: Most popular rap group in the world, the Roots, but
Speaker 3: the fore fathers of.
Speaker 2: His instrument, the tuba, the House of Prayer Legends.
Speaker 3: And I remember when.
Speaker 2: I'm teaching at the Club Club and Damien came down
Speaker 2: and he.
Speaker 3: Said, miss Times. He said, Uncle Love, He said, Uncle,
Speaker 3: can I practice? You know? I said, of course. So
Speaker 3: he's at my school and he's pray.
Speaker 2: He asked me the question, he said, he said, can
Speaker 2: a tuba play melodies, you know, I said, of course
Speaker 2: they can't. You know, they have to be in the
Speaker 2: back room, right, yeah, can He played melodies, and he would.
Speaker 3: Practice songs, you know.
Speaker 2: And everybody has this idea that the tuba in the church,
Speaker 2: in the watching band is going to But in the
Speaker 2: House of Prayer, if you listen to the tuba players,
Speaker 2: I mean it's they're the most colorful instrument in the
Speaker 2: band because they're.
Speaker 3: Doing all these moving parts, you know.
Speaker 2: And so you see how that generational kind of influence.
Speaker 3: It just continued and continued.
Speaker 1: And this is my final question. What does the United
Speaker 1: House of Prayer mean to you and Daddy Grace's legacy.
Speaker 1: What does it mean to you personally and to your career.
Speaker 3: It's a big question.
Speaker 2: Well, my career, that's where I started from. It's going
Speaker 2: to always be part of my beginnings. Like I said,
Speaker 2: my first teacher, my first piano teacher, my introduction to
Speaker 2: the fundamentals of music. You know, it's the basis of
Speaker 2: what have carried me all these years.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: In my particular case, I think I have to owe
Speaker 2: everything that I do musically right to the House of Prey.
Speaker 2: I don't think I've been the kind of musician or
Speaker 2: have the samele sensibilities that I have about my music
Speaker 2: and want to share that with my young people that
Speaker 2: if I didn't come from the house Prey I, it
Speaker 2: wasn't for house of prayer.
Speaker 1: Wow, thank you. You're bringing tears to my eyes.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Thank you, Erry.
Speaker 1: This has been wonderful.
Speaker 3: Okay, all right, you.
Speaker 1: Take so much care of yourself and lots of love.
Speaker 3: Oh right, say you, dear.
Speaker 1: Sweet Daddy. Grace is a production of iHeart Podcasts and Force,
Speaker 1: a media group. This show is hosted by Me Marcy Depina.
Speaker 1: It's written and produced by Marissa Brown and Me. Our
Speaker 1: story editors are Darryl Stewart, Duncan Riedel, and Zarren Burnett. Editing,
Speaker 1: sound design and theme music by Jonathan Washington. Additional editing
Speaker 1: by Matt Russell. Show cover art by Viviana Salgado of
Speaker 1: Studio Creative Group. Fact checking by Austin Thompson. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Marcy Depina and Jason English. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Will Pearson, Nikki Ettore, Ali Perry, Tamika Campbell, and Lulu
Speaker 1: Phillip of iHeartMedia and all of my family members. Who
Speaker 1: talk to me for this show, my ancestors, the United
Speaker 1: House of Prayer for All People, and the countless number
Speaker 1: of people who shared their memories of Sweet Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: with me. Thanks also to doctor Marie Dollam and doctor
Speaker 1: Danielle brun Sigler, whose academic work on Sweet Daddy Grace
Speaker 1: has been incredibly helpful. And finally, I want to thank
Speaker 1: Bishop Grace himself for choosing me to tell his story.
Speaker 1: For more information on Bishop Charles M. Grace, check out
Speaker 1: the website Sweet Daddy Grace and follow me at Marcy
Speaker 1: Depina on all social platforms