1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: If you have heard about the murder of Jessica Chambers, 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: you do not want to miss the new docuseries on Oxygen. 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: The true story of a teen girl, a Mississippi cheerleader, 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: burned alive and the story of the man accused of 5 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: this horrific crime. Is the right man on trial? Who 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: is he? And who was Jessica Chambers? How does such 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: a horrific crime even happen? More questions than answer? Is 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: a case that has captured American headlines, takes over social media, 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: and leaves a small town divided. A must see TV event. 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: Unspeakable Crime, The Killing of Jessica Chambers air Saturday, September fifteen, 11 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: seven sixth Central on Oxygen, the new network for crime 12 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace. I would get these uh 13 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: feelings of being woozy. It was really unusual, and I 14 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: was going to the doctor to find out what was wrong. 15 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: They sent me to all kinds of specialists. It was 16 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: after Dennis was arrested, and probably about two weeks later 17 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: it finally occurred to me, you know what, I'm not 18 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: having any symptoms anymore. And then it occurred to me 19 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: that Dennis and I were the only two people at 20 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: the city who had access to a locked file cabinet 21 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: for tranquilizer for um animals. And I truly believe that 22 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: Dennis was petting very tiny drops into my diat popsy. 23 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: I personally believe, and I have no way of being 24 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: able to prove this. I was a guinea pig for 25 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: his ability to use tranquilizer on other victims. You or 26 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: hearing Mary Capps who worked with a serial killer for 27 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 1: seven years, only knowing him as a bad tempered boss, 28 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: but she came to realize she was lucky to be alive. 29 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 1: We are talking about b t K bind torture and 30 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: kill serial killer Dennis Raider, who was just spoken from 31 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: behind jail house walls. I Nancy Grace, this is crime Stories. 32 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. B t K Buine 33 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: torture and kill Dennis writer. I knew something was up 34 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: when I first found out he was a dog catcher. Okay, 35 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: who wants to catch dogs to haul them off to 36 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: be euthanized. I mean, is that some kind of a 37 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: freaky calling. But other than that career choice, he seemed 38 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: to be normal. To John Limley, investigative reporter, who is 39 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: b e t K Dennis Raider, and he the guy 40 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: who terrorized which dot Kansas for seventeen years. We know 41 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: of ten brutal torture and murder victims. Dennis Raider the 42 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: oldest of four sons. Though born in Pittsburgh, Kansas, he 43 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: grew up in Wichita. He went into the Air Force. 44 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: He worked as an assembler for the Coleman Company, that 45 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: outdoor supply company. He began to show signs that things 46 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,399 Speaker 1: were just not quite right as he was growing up. 47 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: His parents recalled seeing him uh spending a lot of 48 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: time alone. He was really obsessed with with death and 49 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: the as so often as the case the death of 50 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: small animals. Okay, right there, you're as a red bell 51 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: of alarm. Joining me. John Limley Crime online dot Com 52 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: investigative reporter. You can find this and all other breaking 53 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: crime in justice, music, crime online dot com. Dr William Moroney, 54 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: Stained medical examiner, joining us, author of a brand new 55 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: book on Amazon, American Narcan Veterans trial lawyer out of L. A. 56 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: Troy Slayton. He'll come up with the defense even for 57 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: b T K. Dr Bethany Marshall psycho analysts Joining us 58 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: from L. A. Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case 59 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: Investigative Research Institute, and Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor. When you 60 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: say tortured small animals, Dr Bethany Marshall, all sorts of 61 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: alarms go off in my head. Explain absolutely, I mean, 62 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: you hear budding sociopaths. Um. What what we know about 63 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: sociopathy is that there is a wish to relate to 64 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:51,839 Speaker 1: everybody on the basis of power rather than affection. Sociopathy 65 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: is a disorder of detachment. So sociopaths that do not 66 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: attach to other people in a loving way, they only 67 00:04:59,320 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: want to dumb anate on them. They have a parasitic 68 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: relationship with them, They want to take things from them, 69 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: they want to cheat on others. And so the behavioral 70 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: pattern we see in children and youth who are going 71 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 1: to become sociopaths is that they begin to assert their 72 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: dominance over animals, often to the point of cruelty, of 73 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: killing and maiming animals. And so this is really the 74 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: canary in the coal mine. Basically, clinically, when you want 75 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: to look back and see if somebody a sociopath, you 76 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: look at their relationships with animals in their youth and childhood. Okay, 77 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: those were a lot of words. Dr Bethany Marshall, I'm 78 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: trying to process Cheryl McCollum, break it down in regular 79 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: people talk. It's straight out of the serial killer handle. 80 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: Do you want to be a serial killer? You're gonna 81 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: start some fires, You're gonna wet the bed past what 82 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: we consider a normal age, and you're gonna torture small animals. 83 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 1: We are talking about BTK, bind, torture and kill. Take 84 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: a listen to Dr Catherine Ramsland. But Raider's father worked 85 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: long hours. He didn't see him a lot. He said. 86 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: His mother liked to read or watch TV, so she 87 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: didn't pay a lot of attention to the kids, and 88 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 1: she did let the grandparents take over some of the 89 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: child ry. I got along real well with Ben, but 90 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: mom always wasn't quite happy in love. He greet it 91 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: has a little bit of a little bit too correct 92 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: again small. I'm Dr Catherine Ramsland. I'm a professor of 93 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: forensic psychology. I've had extensive correspondence with Dennis writer the 94 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: b t K serial Killer, because I wrote a book 95 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: with Dennis Rider called Confession of a serial Killer. When 96 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: he was young, his mother's ring got caught on a 97 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: couch spring and she couldn't get her hand out. She 98 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: apparently was terrified and told him to go get help, 99 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: and he felt the first stirrings of arousal over. This 100 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: was exciting, Damna see a woman helpless, and it was 101 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of his ideas about women, that what he 102 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: wanted from them was to keep them trapped and helpless 103 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: and looking to him in terror. That became imprinted in 104 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: his mind and became the image he was always after. 105 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: That is a discussion. You were hearing the voice of 106 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: Katherine Ramsland. Dr. Katherine Ramsland, who had dozens and dozens 107 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: and dozens of conversations correspondence with b t K writer 108 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: insisting there is a quote dark side of him, the 109 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: demons inside me. You know what, Cheryl McCollum, Wendy Patrick, 110 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, Troy Slaton, William Roney. How many times do 111 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: we have to see it? So often? When we see 112 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: horrific evil acts like those of bt K, Dinner Strader, buying, torture, kill, 113 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 1: they blame the devil. Oh, the devil made me do it. 114 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 1: It's the demon in me. Cheryl McCollum. This guy is 115 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: blaming the quote demon inside of him, the devil. Remember 116 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: that old phrase, the devil made me do it. That's 117 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: what the person chuckles about. It's complete garbage. He doesn't 118 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: want to admit that it's him, so obviously he's gonna say, hey, 119 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: it was the devil, because what I did was sobrific 120 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: and so horrible that was people hear about it. I've 121 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: got to have an excuse ready, and the only excuse 122 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: there is is the devil. Take a listen to what 123 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Davis, son of one of b t k's victims, 124 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: has to say. Sitting here before us is a depraved predator, 125 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: a rabbit animal that has murdered people, poisoned countless lives, 126 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: and terrorized this community for thirty years, all the while 127 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: relishing every minute of it. As such, there can be 128 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: no justice harsh enough for revenge bitter enough in this world, 129 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: at least to cause the pain and suffering which a 130 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: social malignancy like this has coming. Therefore, I have determined 131 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: it for the sake of our innocent victims and their 132 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: loving families and friends with us here today. For me, 133 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: this will be a day of celebration, not retribution. If 134 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: my focus were hatred, I would stare you down and 135 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: call you a demon from hell who defiles this cord 136 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: at the very sight of its cancerous presence. If I 137 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: embraced bitterness, I would remind you that you're nothing but 138 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: a desperable child, murdering, cowardly, impotent, eunuch and pervert masquerading 139 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: as a human being. If I were the animal whats 140 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: you are, I would say that I relish the thought 141 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: of you being being treated to the same despicable brutality, 142 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 1: terror and agony at the hands of your sin to 143 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: be fellow inmates that you relished inflicting on your defenseless victims. 144 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: If I respiteful, I would remind you that it is 145 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: only fitting in a twisted, narcissistic psychopath obsessed with public 146 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:58,239 Speaker 1: attention will soon have his world reduced to an isolated, 147 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: solitary existence. In an eightiescore a foot sale, he had 148 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: gotten away with lived a normal life, and he decides 149 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: to reappear. His ego was everything to him and he 150 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 1: was the master manipulator. Dennis Raider went into taunt the 151 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 1: media and the police. He was mocking them. He started 152 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: writing the most chilling letters to us. He thanked the 153 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: news team for getting the word out. Many of us 154 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 1: thought that he was contemplating another kill and it could 155 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: be someone in our station. I didn't know whether I 156 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: was the next victim. You are hearing right there, local 157 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: news reporters recalling strange events surrounding the b t K investigation. 158 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,560 Speaker 1: And I find it very very odd to Windy Patrick, 159 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: California prosecutor, that he the b t K killer buying 160 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: torture killed Dennis Rider. Wanted to quote get the word out. 161 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: Most killers want to keep it a secret. Well, you know, 162 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: we live in a day and age where unfortunately the 163 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: notoriety associated with some of these despicable actions as arousing 164 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: to some suspects and some defendants. We've seen that with shootings, 165 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 1: we've seen that with other types of killings. This man 166 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: apparently was at it for three decades, and so at 167 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 1: some point it's almost like he wanted credit for his work. 168 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: It's it's unthinkable, it's inhumane, but it's in this mindset, 169 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: and that's part of why Dr Ramsland wrote this book 170 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: with him. It's this mindset that we want to know 171 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: in case we see red flags, which which I believably 172 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: nobody saw in this particular case. That's part of the 173 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 1: reason he wanted the story out To CHERYLD McCullum, director 174 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, what exactly happened? Maybe 175 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:37,680 Speaker 1: let me let me go on one thing real quick. 176 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: Will you have a killer like Son of Sam or 177 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: Zodiac or b TK that gives themselves a nickname? That's 178 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: a window into that person's ego. Of course he wanted credit. 179 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: There was no other person like this. When he burst 180 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: as out and he was gonna kill, he didn't choose 181 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: one victim. He chose a family that he was going 182 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: to strangle with his bare hands and then proceeded to 183 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: tell us, you know what, I didn't know he was 184 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: gonna take that much straight serious flee. That's what his 185 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: issue was. The needs needed to get in better shape, 186 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: but he could keep killing. He gaveed himself a nickname. 187 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: He reached out to the media. He wanted the credit. 188 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: That's how you become famous, you know. To Troyce Layton, 189 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: veteran defense lawyer, how are you going to defend this 190 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 1: raider known as bt K by torture kill actually wants 191 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 1: dressed up as one of his victims. I'm looking at 192 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: the photo now, it's of him wearing that looks like 193 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: to be kind of a dress, and he's tied himself 194 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: all up, and he's wearing uh, blonde freaky wig and 195 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: he looks like he's got on doll mask with its 196 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: solid white with black and out eyes and red blobs 197 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: on the cheeks for rouge. And interestingly, he has tied 198 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: a blue binding across his own mouth. I'm looking at 199 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: the picture right now, Troyce Layton Defense. This is clearly 200 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: not somebody who is in control of all of their 201 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 1: mental faculties, Nancy. But aside from that, in a case 202 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: like this, really because he held down a job as 203 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: a dog catcher and was a leader in his local church. 204 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 1: Uh a former church leader who hid his killings from 205 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:47,839 Speaker 1: his wife and two children. Um, what about Nancy, What 206 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: do you mean he's insane? He the Constitution of the 207 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: United States of America protects everybody. And I know you're 208 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: in trouble, Wendy. They're in tvel when they start quoting 209 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: the Constitution, because there's nothing in the law that's going 210 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: to protect this cy Wendy. When they start when the 211 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: defense starts quoting the Constitution, I know they're in deep 212 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: doo doo. That's true. You only start, you only go 213 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: there when you have nothing else. And it's you know, 214 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: it's because it's indefensible. It is indefensible. Comes with the 215 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: constitution again, Come at me, man, I'm ready. What the 216 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: defense attorneys need to do here is try and save 217 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: his life. And so what we are looking to do 218 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 1: is to have to save his life. We're looking to 219 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: take the death penalty off the table. And so the 220 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: entire purpose of the defense is to not try and 221 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: have him be found not guilty, but it's to try 222 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: and spare him from the death penalty. You know, it's 223 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: amazing how some people would interpret this is God getting 224 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: up in the middle of it again, because he was 225 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: actually tracked. He was ultimately brought down by a floppy 226 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: disk that led police to trace it back to his church. Okay, 227 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: so he by by Sunday mornings. Is this church goer, 228 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: worshiping family man. The whole time he's out as a 229 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: dog catcher tracking scoping out victims in various neighborhoods all 230 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: over town. To John Limley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, 231 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: tell me about his crimes, Nancy, the really interesting thing 232 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: is to go back to the very first of those 233 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: crimes and two of two for a moment. Take this 234 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: from the point of view of the survivors and the victims. 235 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: Charlie o Terra was a fifteen year old boy. He 236 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: had had a great day on this January afternoon. He 237 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: had aged. Okay, when you say something like that, John, 238 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: I know something bad it's about to happen. When you 239 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: say he had a great day, or like it was 240 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: a sunny afternoon, that's how you always do it, John Lily, 241 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: and you stabbed me. Go ahead, a Sonny, Okay, go ahead. 242 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: So as Charlie o Tera is crossing the street to 243 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: his family's white bungalow, he sees that the garage door 244 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 1: is open and his mother's car is missing right there. 245 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: He knows something is not right because his mother is 246 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: always there to greet him when he gets home from school, 247 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: so he walks around back trying to figure out what's 248 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: going on. The family dog then runs toward him across 249 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: the snow. No one ever let this dog, a German 250 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: Shepherd mix, Lucky, out of the house outside alone. At least, 251 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: Charlie walks into the kid notices a half made peanut 252 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: butter sandwich sitting on the table besides an empty lunch lunchbox. 253 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: It seems that his fourteen year old brother and thirteen 254 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: year old sister had returned home just minutes before him 255 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: and Carmen the girl comes running and says, come quick, 256 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: Mom and dad are playing a bad joke on us. 257 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 1: It's anything but a joke. From the doorway of his 258 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: parents bedroom, Charlie sees his dad on the carpet by 259 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: the bed. He has been strangled with a belt. Um. 260 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: He's a handsome guy, but his features were grotesquely swollen. 261 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: His mother lay on the mattress of some clothesline, clinched 262 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: and cinched around her neck. Both of them had been 263 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: bound with thin cord at the wrists and ankles. And 264 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: at this point, uh, they think that another brother and 265 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: sister are still at school, but they'll find out differently. Unfortunately, 266 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: when you say that, it just breaks my heart because 267 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: it makes me think of my own children coming in 268 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: to find such a horrible thing. I want you to 269 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: hear from his own mouth. Dennis Writer, describing very unemotionally 270 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: the Otero family his first victims. You really talked to 271 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: me about, uh, you know, giving the car and whatever money. 272 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 1: I guess he didn't have very much money. And D 273 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: there I realized that, you know, I was already I 274 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: didn't have a mask on everything. They already could I 275 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: d me and made it made a decision to go 276 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: ahead and shut them down. I guess I'm strangling. I 277 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: had never strangled anyone before, so I really don't know 278 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: how much pressure you had to put on a person, 279 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: or how long would a strangle Mrs Ltarrell And she 280 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: went out or passed out. I thought she was dead. 281 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: She passed out, And I strangled Josephine she passed out 282 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: or I thought she was dead, and and then I 283 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: went over and put uh and then put a bag on. 284 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:23,479 Speaker 1: Junior said, do you ever wake up at three o'clock 285 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: in the morning worried about something? Or do you have 286 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: a pain in your back or you can't get comfy? Well, 287 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: let me tell you I do the very same thing. 288 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: And I have found out about helix sleep dot com. 289 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: There's nobody on earth like you. Why do you want 290 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: a generic mattress built for everybody else? Well, helix Sleep 291 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: has built to sleep quiz and it takes about a 292 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: minute to complete it. 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Helix offering a twenty five bucks off all 312 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: mattress orders a hundred and twenty five dollars off at 313 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: he'll ex sleep dot com slash Nancy. Make sure you 314 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 1: put in slash nancy. He'll ex sleep dot com slash 315 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: Nancy for a hundred twenty five bucks off your mattress order. 316 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: He'll ex sleep dot com slash Nancy. Hey, I don't 317 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,400 Speaker 1: have a problem. Was saving a hundred and twenty five dollars. 318 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: He'll ex sleep dot com slash Nancy a hundred and 319 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: twenty five dollars off. Do I need to say anything else? 320 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: Case closed? I rest He only talked to me about, uh, 321 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, giving the car and whatever money. I guess 322 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: it didn't have very much money. And there I realized that, 323 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, I was already I didn't have a mask 324 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: on everything. They already that I d me and made it, 325 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: made a decision to go ahead and shut them down. 326 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: I guess the England. I had never strangled anyone before, 327 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 1: so I really don't know how much pressure you had 328 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: to put on a person or how long it would 329 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: take a strangler. Mrs Oltarrell and she went out or 330 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 1: passed out. I thought she was dead. She passed out, 331 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: and I strangled Josephine. She passed out or I thought 332 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 1: she was dead, and then I went over and put 333 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: it uh and then put a bag on. Junior said, 334 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,639 Speaker 1: you are hearing bt K bind torture kill, serial killer 335 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: Dennish writer The Dog Catcher, describing with very little emotion, 336 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: how he quote put him down, how he killed the 337 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: Otero family. But that's just the tip of the iceberg. 338 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:48,719 Speaker 1: Listen to what he says next. Josephine had walked back up. 339 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 1: I took her to the basement and eventually hung her. 340 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: I had some sexual fantasies, but that was after she 341 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: was hung. M to the house kind of cleaned it up. 342 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: It's called the right handed Early you go from a 343 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,399 Speaker 1: river room. UM picked everything to up. I think I 344 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: took Mr Carroll's watch there. I guess I took a radio. 345 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 1: I forgot about that, but apparently I took a radio. 346 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: Did you hear what he just said? He's talking about 347 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: killing Mr and Mrs Otero, but then he goes on 348 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: on to talk about killing very dispassionately Josephine O Tero. Josephine. 349 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: He hung Josephine. She was just eleven years old. He 350 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:46,760 Speaker 1: hung her in the basement. Josephine O Tero to John 351 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: Limley Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. I'm looking at 352 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: photos right now as they haul out on a gurnee, 353 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 1: A little body covered with a blanket and just slow 354 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: like the brother says, there's snow outside. It's just you know, 355 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 1: a suburban home. They're walking up the path. A body 356 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,639 Speaker 1: is being removed from the scene of B t k's 357 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:23,120 Speaker 1: first known murders, Joseph, Julie, Josephine, and Joseph the Second, 358 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: all four of them found dead in their home. I'm 359 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: looking at them, and I'm looking at the little boy, 360 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: Joseph Tero the Second and little Josephine. How was Josephine found? 361 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: John Lemley Joey had been asphyxiated with a plastic bag 362 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: in his bedroom. Josie's partially clad body was hanging from 363 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: a pipe in the basement. Dr Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst, joining 364 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 1: me from l A. He said he had a sexual fantasy. 365 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: He's line. He lived out that sexual fantasy. That little girl. 366 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: He lived it out, that little girl hanging in the basement. Nancy, 367 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: you know, we know that certain animals are born with 368 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: a predatory instinct, like say a lion on the savannah 369 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: might eat a Springbok and not think twice about it. 370 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: It's lunch. It's bad for the Springbok, but Line doesn't 371 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 1: think much about it. That's what we call cold blooded. 372 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: And this is very rare amongst humans. But some human 373 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: beings are born with a very strong predatory instinct and killing. 374 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: It's just like an animal that's trying to get its lunch. 375 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: It's that inconsequential to them. And when I hear the 376 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: BTK killer in court and then these interviews say, yeah, 377 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: I had to apply a little more pressure. Oh you 378 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 1: know what. He he tore the bag that was over 379 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: his head, so I put another bag over his head 380 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: just to make sure he was dead. I hear something 381 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: called alexithymia, and alexithymia is when a person uses the 382 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: same words you and I might use, but the meanings 383 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: are very thin, like put a bag over his head, 384 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: hang her in the basement, apply more pressure. These will 385 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: be horrifying things for us to say, but they have 386 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: absolutely no meaning to the bt K killer. And then 387 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: you put that sexual overlay on it. That for a 388 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: human being who cannot feel, there are no emotions about anything, 389 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: this kind of a sociopath is going to have a 390 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: very difficult time with sexual arousal because he's not going 391 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: to be able to feel sexual arousal in normal ways 392 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,360 Speaker 1: with with a same age sex partner. So what he's 393 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: going to do is inflict cruelty on his victims in 394 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: order to enhance his sexual arousal. And and and this is 395 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: this is the distinction of literature between sociopaths and psychopaths. 396 00:26:56,000 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: Sociopaths are just mean, heartless they commit crimes. With the hycopath, 397 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: you have the additional the addition of cruelty and the 398 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: commission of the crime. To Dr William Maroney, medical examiner 399 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: joining us an author of a new book on Amazon 400 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: American Narcan, Dr Maroney, he speaks Dennish writer B. T. K. 401 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: Speaks so dispassionately, so unemotionally in court it's like he's 402 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: reading a medical document about how he murdered his victims, 403 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: including hanging the nine year old little girl before having 404 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,720 Speaker 1: a sex fantasy on her. Dr Maroney, what does the 405 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,280 Speaker 1: victim live through when they are strangled dead? Strangulation is 406 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: part of a much larger cole morbid condition called asphyxia UM. 407 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: I try to simplify that down. Asphyxia is the lack 408 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: of oxygen to the brain. Blood brings oxygen to the brain. 409 00:27:55,119 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: Asphyxia is caused by obviously strangulation, uh, carbon monoxide, drowning, 410 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: drug overdose, any other kind of gas that replaces the environment, 411 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: respiratory disease, sleep apnea. But here strangulation is the cause 412 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: of asphyxia. So you slowly kind of wander off into 413 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 1: the fog and then you never wake up. But in 414 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: a strangulation there is the violent struggle. You are physically 415 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: being assaulted to shut down the blood to your brain 416 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: by the assailants. And while he's this passionately talking about 417 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: this in court, it's a very active, full contact, negative experience. 418 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: But we should never really forget this man tortured animals 419 00:28:55,280 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: as he was growing up. Torturing, Q means was just 420 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 1: the next logical step in some sick pathway. So he's 421 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: b t k T stands for torturing. Strangulation is torturing. 422 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: He tortured animals as a child. This is why we 423 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: tell our kids leave the catalone, leave the dog, don't 424 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, ignore that, don't don't pour gasoline on the 425 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: ant hill and burn the ants. We we try to 426 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: preserve the message of life around our children and create 427 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: more positive things so that we don't lead them to 428 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: the path of strangling families. But he tortured animals growing up, 429 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: and he had a fetish about women's underwear his whole life. 430 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,480 Speaker 1: Mixing those two things, it's it's not surprising the strangled 431 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: people and he had sexual fetishes. There's a lot of 432 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: negative things here, But suffocating people, asphyxiating people, they they 433 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: fall away on left. It's strangling. It's violent, and it's 434 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: a very full contact experience. Isn't true? Dr Maroney that 435 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: when you recover a strangulation victim's body, sometimes their neck 436 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: is like um three or four inches wide. Their whole 437 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: neck has been contorted and constricted so much it stays 438 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,360 Speaker 1: that way. Well, there's a big part of the neck 439 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: that compresses. The blood vessels are full of blood. Ordinarily 440 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: they're pumping, and you shut them down. You close them 441 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: so all the blood that's in the head that has 442 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: no oxygen is stuck there, and all the fresh blood 443 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: below the belt or the rope or the grasp of 444 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: the hands. So it is basically plumbing and you're shutting 445 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: off the oxygen that that's carried by the blood and 446 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 1: if you strangle somebody hard enough, you squeave them down 447 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: to the bones of their throat in their spine. Listen 448 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: to Beverly Platt, his sister Nancy was murdered by Dennish writer. 449 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: I lost a friend, confidante. My children will never have 450 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: an aunt. I'll never have another sister. Nancy's death is 451 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: like a deep wound that will never ever heal. As 452 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned, Dennis Raider does not deserve to live. 453 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: I want him to suffer as much as he made 454 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: his victims suffer. But then when I think about that, 455 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: and he is sick, perverted way, he'd probably find that 456 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: as some kind of pleasure or reward. This man needs 457 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: to be thrown in a deep, dark hole and left 458 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: to rot. He should never ever see the light of day. 459 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 1: And I have some afterlife scenarios for him. On the 460 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: day he dies, Nancy and all of his victims will 461 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: be waiting with God and watching him as he burns 462 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: in hell. Her execution by that monster was. You know, 463 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 1: he's got to go on and live his life thirty 464 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: one years now, with raising a family and children and 465 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: career and everything. And you know he snapped out ten 466 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: people's lives right now. He's not any remorse, no remorse, 467 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: no compassion. No, he had no mercy, and I think 468 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: that's what he ought to receive. No. I just you'll 469 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,560 Speaker 1: pray that he'll get the toughest sentence possible. I just 470 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: so Charlie was saying, he's being judged here now but eternity, 471 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: and he stands before the Lord pre eternity through his judgment. 472 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: If he's still in his sins that he's committed here, 473 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: he will spend it by himself in darkness. And you 474 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: know that's that's what I'd like to tell him. You're 475 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: hearing Kevin Bright, who survived the attack that killed his 476 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: sister Catherine. You know what, I wish what he said 477 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: were true, that he would live out the rest of 478 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: his days before his death in remorse. But I I 479 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: don't think he feels remorseful about it. If you listen 480 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: to him in court, I mean, take a listen to 481 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: Dennis Rader, who dubbed himself buying torture kill as he 482 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: describes how he selected his victims, had many what I 483 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: called him projects. There were different people in the town 484 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: that I followed. Watch Kathleen Bryant was one of the 485 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: next targets. I guess I would indicate just driving by 486 00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: one day and I saw her go in the house 487 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 1: with somebody else, and I thought, that's a possibility. There 488 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,880 Speaker 1: was many many places in the area, College Hill even there, 489 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 1: all over which telp anyway, that's it just was basically 490 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: a selection process worked toward it. If it didn't work, 491 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: I just move on to something else. But in the 492 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: and then my kind of person was stocking and strolling. 493 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: You go through the trolling stage and then the stocking stage. 494 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: She was in the stocking stage when this happened. That's 495 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: a possibility. To Dr Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst out of l A, 496 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: he saw the woman just walking in that and he's 497 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: talking about Katherine Bright. You just heard her brother Kevin speaking, 498 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: And he looked and he goes, well, that's a possibility. 499 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like they have a total different mind. 500 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 1: Then we have that. Yes, that is a possibility. Nancy. 501 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 1: I used to have a cat who would bring me 502 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,919 Speaker 1: all kinds of little trophies and treasures. I've come home, 503 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: there'd be a mouse on the front doorstep, or there'd 504 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: be a lizard and invariably the cat would want to 505 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: poss it around proudly. That cat looked so proud whenever 506 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,840 Speaker 1: it caught killed something and brought it to me. And 507 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: I think about this Denis Rader as an animal, one 508 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 1: of these rare people whose predatory instinct is on overdrive. 509 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: And he's sitting in the court like a cat with 510 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,759 Speaker 1: passing a little mouse around saying oh, I did this, 511 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 1: and then I did that, and he is happy about it. 512 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: And you have the overlayer of the fact that he's 513 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: a human. He has not a cat, he's not a tiger. 514 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,239 Speaker 1: This is a human being. And what do you get 515 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: in human being? You get something that we call grandiosity, 516 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: which is a core feature of sociopathy. He's grandios. He's 517 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: having his day in court now he thinks he's actually 518 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: like the venerated professor who's teaching everybody what it means 519 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: to be a serial killer. Well, Step one, ladies and gentlemen, 520 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: you drive down the street. Step two, do you identify 521 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 1: your victims? Step three? And maybe not this one. I 522 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:06,799 Speaker 1: think I'll go look for another one. Can you hear 523 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 1: how he feels he's teaching the people in the court. 524 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: This is like a very sick, twisted version of grandiosity. 525 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: And we've seen this in every sociopath we've covered on 526 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: your show. Wendy Passion with me veteran California prosecutor that 527 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: has handled many, many homicide prosecutions. Wendy, how did B. T. K. 528 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: Dannish writer actually implement execute his crimes? You know, the 529 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 1: short answer is easily, because he was somebody that wasn't 530 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: a suspect. I mean, he had some status in his community. 531 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: He had a job, he was a churchgoer, he had 532 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: a family, Nancy, think about that. So when you have 533 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: somebody like this that seems relatively unassuming and unsuspicious, it 534 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: is easy for him to go out and find victims, 535 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: as in his own words, troll them, then stock them, 536 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: attack them, then kill them in a number of different ways, 537 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: as we've seen over the years. So he was apparently 538 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: able to move about freely without drawing suspicion. And that 539 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: makes him one of the scariest and one of the 540 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: most dangerous serial killers. But I hate to say it, Nancy, 541 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 1: it follows the pattern of other killers just like him 542 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: that lead apparently normal lives on the outside. I don't 543 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: really understand the phenomena of him writing letters to taunt 544 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,280 Speaker 1: the public through the local news media, and Troy Slayton 545 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: his methodical way of picking his victims and executing these crimes, 546 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: sneaking into their house under different pretenses like being a 547 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: repairman or somebody to check the gas mate or whatever. 548 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: His pretext was, showed a lot of forethought. And he 549 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 1: has so many victims. How do you even fashion a 550 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: defense for that? Well, it's it's certainly not easy, and 551 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: I think that the defense team here had certainly a 552 00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: tough job, and so it was focused, like I've like 553 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: I've mentioned before, on purely trying to convince prosecutors that 554 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: the pain of going through um it protracted litigation would 555 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: would just cause more damage to the victims. That it 556 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 1: would be better for the victims to be able to 557 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,080 Speaker 1: give their impact statements to the court, which they did, 558 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 1: and for the State of Kansas to not uh seek 559 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: to execute And as that's that's not going to bring 560 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: any of the the tragic victims back to life? Is 561 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: that is that how you justify it, Troy, that a 562 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: death penalty won't bring the victims back. I mean, I've 563 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 1: only known so far if one person brought back from 564 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,439 Speaker 1: the dead. I mean, unless you can't Lazarus. But I'm 565 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 1: not expecting uh miracle. M of course he's not gonna, 566 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: We're not. You can't bring the victims back. That's the 567 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: whole point, Troice Layton Nancy. Yes, the defense attorney's job 568 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: here was to prevent another killing the defendant him, and 569 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:21,400 Speaker 1: and they succeeded, and instead he will spend his life 570 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: in prison. You know what, you speak of it like 571 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: you're analyzing a problem in an algebra book. Listen to writer. Actually, 572 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,760 Speaker 1: on that one, she was completely random. There was actually 573 00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: someone across from Dylan's was potential target. Uh. It was 574 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,279 Speaker 1: called Project Green. I think I had project numbers and 575 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 1: assigned a bit and that pickle day drove the Dylan's 576 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: parking the parking lot, watched this particular residents, and then 577 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,080 Speaker 1: got out of the car and walked over to Uh, 578 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: it's probably the police support the address. I don't remember 579 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: the dress now knock Nobody Nobody answered it. So I 580 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: was all keyed up. So I just started going through 581 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,399 Speaker 1: the neighborhood. I've been into the neighborhood before. I kind 582 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: of knew a little little the layout of the neighborhood. 583 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,720 Speaker 1: I've been through the back alleys. Neuters and certain people 584 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: live you know to you, uh, Cheryl McCullum, director of 585 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute. He kept writing the TV 586 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: station k K A K E and Wichita, claiming responsibility 587 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: for all the murders and suggesting names for himself, including 588 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:35,439 Speaker 1: B T K, demanding media attention until they finally announced 589 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: publicly that Wichita had a serial killer. He even made 590 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: a poem which was stealing the lyrics to an old 591 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: folk song and he called it O Death to Nancy again. 592 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: His ego played such a role in these cons it's 593 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: again reminds me of Son of Sam. You know, he 594 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: wrote poetry Zodiac. He contacts when the letters don't do it, 595 00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,480 Speaker 1: he called, and for how sinister he tried to be. 596 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: This is Zodiac, you know what I mean. They've given 597 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: themselves nicknames. They're not just playing out these fantasies Nancy. 598 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: They're living in Dr Moroney waite end. I want you 599 00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: to know that I feel a cold chill down my 600 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: spine because I was a resident of Johnson County, Kansas. 601 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:27,600 Speaker 1: I lived in a Lake of Kansas, southwest of Kansas 602 00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: City during these crimes. And when I went to go 603 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,120 Speaker 1: take my medical board exams. I went to Wichita. I 604 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: was here. I walked these streets. Now, ordinarily, you know, 605 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: people don't turn out to be this cold and destriver 606 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: and looking for people to kill. Uh. And and people 607 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: could say, you know, Kansas could be kind of a 608 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: boring place. There's not a lot going on. But I 609 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: walked these streets and I just have a very cold 610 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: almost like somebody open the door and it's February and 611 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,480 Speaker 1: the the curtains are blowing. Almost feel a need somewhere 612 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: we all talk about this anymore. This guy needs an exorcist, okay, 613 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: because ordinarily people in Kansas are hard working, good people. 614 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: But he grew up the wrong way. This is this 615 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: is evil again. I mean, we have to bring father 616 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: Malachi Martin back from New York, uh to exercise him. 617 00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 1: You know, Dr William Roney, I don't always expect a 618 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,640 Speaker 1: dispassionate medical examiner to talk about exorcism of the devil, 619 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: but thank you for throwing that bone in there. Up. 620 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,440 Speaker 1: Let me just say these names out loud. Joseph Otero 621 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: thirty eight, Julie Ato thirty three, Joseph Otero junior, age nine, 622 00:42:53,520 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 1: Josephine Ato eleven, Katherine Brighte, Shirley Van twenty four, Nancy Fox, 623 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: Marine Hedge fifty three, Vicky Wagieri, Dolores Davis sixty two 624 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: that we know of, and I think somewhere out there 625 00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,440 Speaker 1: in the universe, all of them agree with me. Dennistrator 626 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:26,720 Speaker 1: rot in Hell, Nancy Grace's crime story, signing off Goodbye friend,