1
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:05,040
Speaker 1: Welcome to Crash Course, a podcast about business, political, and

2
00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:08,479
Speaker 1: social disruption and what we can learn from it. I'm

3
00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:14,280
Speaker 1: Tim O'Brien. Today's Crash Course mother Nature versus life as

4
00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,239
Speaker 1: we know it. For the first time in more than

5
00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:21,200
Speaker 1: eighty years, southern California was deluge by a tropical storm.

6
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,680
Speaker 1: A broad swath of the American Southwest, including long arid deserts,

7
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 1: also got soaked. Lahina, the picturesque tourist destination on the

8
00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,599
Speaker 1: Hawaiian island of Maui, got burnt to the ground by

9
00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,560
Speaker 1: a fast moving wildfire that may have left at least

10
00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:42,640
Speaker 1: hundreds of people dead. Weather's fickle and climate related catastrophes

11
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,960
Speaker 1: have become all too common in the US and around

12
00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:50,840
Speaker 1: the globe. Deadly rain induced flooding interspersed with deadly heat

13
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 1: induced fires have also visited the Koreas, Ethiopia, Australia, Pakistan, India, Brazil,

14
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,560
Speaker 1: the UK, Canada, Greece and other countries during this still

15
00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:07,240
Speaker 1: new twenty first century. July twenty twenty three was the

16
00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,319
Speaker 1: hottest month on record in the US, according to National

17
00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:15,080
Speaker 1: Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Records. Records dating back to eighteen

18
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,920
Speaker 1: fifty We now live in a climate change world in

19
00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:22,040
Speaker 1: which every season or region is host to the hottest,

20
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 1: the driest, the coldest, or the wettest moment of the

21
00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,680
Speaker 1: modern human era. The league tables keep changing, with each

22
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:35,000
Speaker 1: new climate disaster outranking its predecessor. We are witnesses to

23
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,960
Speaker 1: violent extremities that are often unpredictable and difficult to manage.

24
00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,200
Speaker 1: We are the authors of the disasters and victims of

25
00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:48,760
Speaker 1: the consequences. Mother Nature has had enough. Joining me to

26
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 1: discuss climate change and what we can do about it

27
00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:56,000
Speaker 1: is Mark Gonglof, the columnist with Bloomberg Opinion who specializes

28
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,240
Speaker 1: in covering the environment and climate change. He's a stellar

29
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,000
Speaker 1: writer and wonderfully clear thinking. Welcome Mark, Thank you Tim.

30
00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:06,600
Speaker 1: I thought we could break up our conversation today into

31
00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,880
Speaker 1: three parts flooding, fires, and solutions. Does that sound like

32
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,000
Speaker 1: a reasonable approach?

33
00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:15,160
Speaker 2: It sounds like it's an enormous topic, and I am

34
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,480
Speaker 2: happy to be here to talk about such an enjoyable,

35
00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:18,680
Speaker 2: you know, cheerful topic.

36
00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:21,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's an important topic. Sometimes the important topics

37
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,519
Speaker 1: aren't that cheerful, right, So let's get started. Let's talk

38
00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 1: about the rains that recently soaked the American Southwest, just

39
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:30,399
Speaker 1: in a very basic way.

40
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 2: What caused that, Well, there was a hurricane that formed

41
00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,960
Speaker 2: in the eastern Pacific off the coast of Mexico, Hurricane Hillary.

42
00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,080
Speaker 2: There was really really hot water and it went really deep,

43
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,680
Speaker 2: and so the hurricane went from zero to one hundred

44
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 2: really fast, went up to a category four really quickly.

45
00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 2: And then a couple of freakish things happened that sucked

46
00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 2: that hurricane right up into California, one of which was

47
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 2: a giant heat dome sitting over the central part of

48
00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,760
Speaker 2: the US that kept air from blowing to the east.

49
00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,360
Speaker 2: And then you had Ordinarily California's waters are really cold,

50
00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,920
Speaker 2: and that kills hurricanes and tropical storms. But this was

51
00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 2: so strong that even that cold water couldn't really kill it.

52
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:14,440
Speaker 2: But also it was also not as cold as it

53
00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,480
Speaker 2: usually is, because the oceans are hotter than they've ever

54
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,480
Speaker 2: been right now, and so it weakened dramatically to a

55
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 2: tropical storm by the time it got to California, but

56
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,840
Speaker 2: it still contained a whole lot of water by the

57
00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,720
Speaker 2: time it got up there, and kept dumping water all

58
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,160
Speaker 2: the way up into Boise, Idaho.

59
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,040
Speaker 1: And so is that a one off you know, as

60
00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:35,640
Speaker 1: you noted, colder waters have traditionally protected the California coast

61
00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,000
Speaker 1: at least and some of the inland regions from hurricanes

62
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,760
Speaker 1: and storms like this. But if the oceans are warming,

63
00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,400
Speaker 1: that logic may change. Yeah. Do you suspect that this

64
00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: is only a one.

65
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 2: Off, Well, I described it as sort of a freakish event.

66
00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,760
Speaker 2: But a couple of those things are going to be

67
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,560
Speaker 2: with us for a long time. Hotter oceans, heat domes.

68
00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,240
Speaker 2: I saw a scientist say that this used to be

69
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,880
Speaker 2: a once in a one hundred and eight year event,

70
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,200
Speaker 2: and now it's a once in thirty year event. And

71
00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,320
Speaker 2: as the climate keeps warming, it could become more frequent

72
00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 2: than that because some of those conditions aren't going away. Yes,

73
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:08,880
Speaker 2: the water off coast to California will remain cold, it

74
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 2: will remain hopefully rare, but not nearly as rare as

75
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:12,920
Speaker 2: it used to be.

76
00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 1: Whatever I try to understand when these things are happening.

77
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,839
Speaker 1: I think about those like snow globes or those toys

78
00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,680
Speaker 1: I had as little kid, you know, where you would

79
00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,359
Speaker 1: shake it up and different things would happen inside, you know,

80
00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 1: the sphere. But now all of the conditions that were

81
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: used to for understanding how weather develops have shifted, so

82
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,880
Speaker 1: when the entire earth shakes like a snow globe, the

83
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:37,640
Speaker 1: cause and effect is radically changed in ways we're just

84
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,120
Speaker 1: starting to experience.

85
00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 2: Now, right, that's right. I mean, it's a great analogy.

86
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,480
Speaker 2: You know, used to think about climate change, or at

87
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 2: least for a long time I thought about it. Maybe

88
00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,400
Speaker 2: other people did too. Is just you'd hear about these

89
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:49,680
Speaker 2: tiny temperatures. You'd say, well, it's going to rise by

90
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 2: two degrees celsius. And if you and I walk out

91
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,559
Speaker 2: of the building today and it's two degrees celsias warmer,

92
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,080
Speaker 2: we're barely going to notice. Right, that's you know, maybe

93
00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 2: four or five degrees fahrenheit. A lot of people would

94
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:01,760
Speaker 2: find that more pleasant. You might think, well, Canada is

95
00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:04,760
Speaker 2: going to be warmer, Wisconsin's going to be warmer. Everything

96
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:06,400
Speaker 2: is going to be great. What's the worry? And I

97
00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,000
Speaker 2: think that's one of the reasons people haven't been as

98
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,080
Speaker 2: worried about it as maybe they should be. But what

99
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:15,000
Speaker 2: we're discovering is that if you apply even that small

100
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,359
Speaker 2: amount of extra heat, we've warned by about one point

101
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,400
Speaker 2: one degrees celsius, so far above pre industrial averages. If

102
00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,600
Speaker 2: you apply just that small amount of heat over an

103
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,200
Speaker 2: entire planet for a long period of time, you get

104
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,400
Speaker 2: weird things that happen. And so you can see Siberia,

105
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 2: it doesn't rise up to like eighty degrees fahrenheit. It

106
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:34,600
Speaker 2: rises to one hundred as we saw earlier this year,

107
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:36,920
Speaker 2: which is just an incredible thing to think about. In

108
00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,839
Speaker 2: Canada as much hotter, And that's one of the reasons

109
00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:42,200
Speaker 2: we can get into this later. While we're seeing record

110
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:46,160
Speaker 2: wildfires there this year, and so it's affecting wind patterns,

111
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,640
Speaker 2: affecting jet streams, affecting ocean currents. It has all kinds

112
00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 2: of things that we are discovering and living through right now.

113
00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,599
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting what you just brought up, the

114
00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,159
Speaker 1: idea of data points. What do two degrees celsius mean

115
00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:03,000
Speaker 1: when it's abstract? And for a long time scientists and

116
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 1: climate specialists have been looking at this data and seeing

117
00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 1: the changes and warning us, But a lot of it

118
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,400
Speaker 1: felt data driven. Prepare for the future. If you don't

119
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,040
Speaker 1: prepare for the future, the world your children and your

120
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:17,720
Speaker 1: grandchildren live in might be adversely affected, probably will be

121
00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,400
Speaker 1: adversely affected. But we weren't feeling dramatic change in our

122
00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 1: daily lives. Now, lo and behold we are you know,

123
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,320
Speaker 1: smoke is clogging our lungs, and as these floods have proven,

124
00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,800
Speaker 1: their waters washing down our streets and into some of

125
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,240
Speaker 1: our homes. And it's no longer about the data, it's

126
00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,479
Speaker 1: about lived experiences. And maybe this year in particular is

127
00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,640
Speaker 1: a turning point in terms of people's awareness that it

128
00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,360
Speaker 1: isn't just the data. Now we're seeing what climate change

129
00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:46,360
Speaker 1: really means day to day.

130
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 2: That's right. The future is here, The future is now.

131
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,880
Speaker 2: You can't even call this a new normal. This is

132
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 2: a road. We're on a path to a much much

133
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 2: worse new normal if we continue down the road we're

134
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,960
Speaker 2: going with al Nino. This year. You mentioned July was

135
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,599
Speaker 2: the hottest month. It was the hottest month on record.

136
00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,000
Speaker 2: So far, August looks like it's going to set another record,

137
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:06,560
Speaker 2: and we're talking about maybe going to one point five

138
00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:09,720
Speaker 2: degrees celsius above pre industrial averages for this month for

139
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,120
Speaker 2: this month alone. Again, very abstract number. It doesn't make

140
00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,640
Speaker 2: any sense to a lot of people when they hear that,

141
00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,600
Speaker 2: but the effect of that tiny change in temperature is

142
00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,000
Speaker 2: what we're seeing now. We're seeing multiple disasters happening. We're

143
00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 2: seeing heat domes over the middle of the country, a

144
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 2: massive flooding in China and India, wildfires and Maui and Canada,

145
00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,800
Speaker 2: massive heat in winter in South America. It just goes

146
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,560
Speaker 2: on and on. Corals dying in Florida. This is with

147
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 2: just one point five degrees of warming. So we are

148
00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,680
Speaker 2: living the experience, as you say now. And if there

149
00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 2: is one hopeful thing to take out of this sort

150
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,280
Speaker 2: of my asthma of disaster, it's that it is I

151
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 2: think I hope starting to wake people up to the

152
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 2: reality of what's going on.

153
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, thinking hope our interesting concepts right now because we

154
00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:57,960
Speaker 1: can get into climate change denihialism later. I want to

155
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 1: ask you a really basic question. Since we're on water

156
00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,000
Speaker 1: in this opening act, tell me a little bit about

157
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 1: the mechanics of flooding. Why do floods occur?

158
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:09,440
Speaker 2: There are a few different reasons. On the coasts. It

159
00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 2: happens when you get a big storm surge, and especially

160
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:13,760
Speaker 2: if that happens during high tide, as we saw during

161
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 2: Hurricane Sandy. You had a Hurricane Cane, big storm surge

162
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 2: at high tide flooded the coastal area. Another way you

163
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,080
Speaker 2: get is if you live on a river and you

164
00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,320
Speaker 2: get a bunch of rain dumped and the rivers overflow

165
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,040
Speaker 2: their banks, creeks overflow their banks, you get river rain flooding. Now,

166
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:30,880
Speaker 2: all those things are affected by climate change. Of course,

167
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 2: all those things are made worse by climate change. The

168
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,280
Speaker 2: other weird thing we're seeing with climate change is just

169
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 2: sudden bursts of water coming out of nowhere. Because when

170
00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:43,960
Speaker 2: you talk about the snow globe shaken up, climate change

171
00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 2: is about energy, and the hotter the air gets, the

172
00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,320
Speaker 2: more energy is in there, and the more snow is

173
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 2: dancing around in the globe, and that has all kinds

174
00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 2: of effects. And one of the effects is it holds

175
00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 2: more water. And so when you get rainstorms, when you

176
00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,960
Speaker 2: get regular thunderstorms, as we saw in Vermont and New

177
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,840
Speaker 2: York recently. That wasn't a hurricane or anything like that.

178
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,600
Speaker 2: It was just a big kind of a bad storm,

179
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 2: but it dumped tremendous amounts of rain. It dumped like

180
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,440
Speaker 2: months of rain in a period of a day, just

181
00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,520
Speaker 2: like we're seeing in California infacted.

182
00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,840
Speaker 1: There wasn't the stat on California that they expected to

183
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,520
Speaker 1: get a year's worth. Yes, of rain in three days.

184
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,679
Speaker 2: That's right. And we're seeing things like that happen all

185
00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:21,120
Speaker 2: the time. We're seeing it in India, we're seeing it

186
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 2: in China, we see it in Vermont. And so what

187
00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:25,480
Speaker 2: happens is you get all this rain coming all at once,

188
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,920
Speaker 2: it overwhelms. Our systems were not designed to handle this.

189
00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,600
Speaker 2: You know, you've got these drainage systems and culverts, the

190
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,360
Speaker 2: things that run under bridges so that doesn't swamp the bridge.

191
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,880
Speaker 2: All that stuff was built for periods of time when

192
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 2: you might get an inch of rain at worse during

193
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 2: a day. You know, now you're getting five or six

194
00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 2: inches of rain, and all that stuff gets overwhelmed. And

195
00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,400
Speaker 2: so that's a big factor and why we're getting some

196
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:47,600
Speaker 2: of the flooding we're seeing now.

197
00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,240
Speaker 1: You know, predictions when Hurricane Hillary first formed were much

198
00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: more dire before it was downgraded into a tropical storm.

199
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,959
Speaker 1: It became a tropical storm. If it had stayed a hurricane,

200
00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:02,600
Speaker 1: what might have happened that didn't happen.

201
00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,920
Speaker 2: We would have seen a lot more flooding, a lot

202
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,640
Speaker 2: more destruction. You could have seen more scenes like we

203
00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 2: saw in Vermont, where a lot of more people had

204
00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,200
Speaker 2: to be evacuated. People did have to be evacuated in

205
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,920
Speaker 2: parts of California, and one of the lessons we can

206
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,480
Speaker 2: take from what happened with Hillary is that local officials

207
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:21,800
Speaker 2: were prepared for it. They saw it coming. In Vermont,

208
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 2: New York, you didn't quite see it coming. You had

209
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:25,320
Speaker 2: no idea. You saw a storm coming, but you didn't

210
00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 2: know you're going to get that kind of rain. With Hillary,

211
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,880
Speaker 2: fortunately everybody was scared about it and they had time

212
00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,720
Speaker 2: to prepare people, and they could track the storm exactly.

213
00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:35,400
Speaker 2: They could track the storm, they knew it was coming.

214
00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,280
Speaker 2: They could tell people to get in their houses, get

215
00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 2: out of dangerous areas, and so they saved a lot

216
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 2: of lives doing that because it could have been worse.

217
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:43,160
Speaker 2: Even with the we did get a lot of rainfall,

218
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,640
Speaker 2: even though it wasn't as much as people expected, But yes,

219
00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,640
Speaker 2: it could have been much worse. We really got lucky.

220
00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 2: And you know, we're rolling the dice with nature all

221
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 2: the time, and sometimes we come up lucky, as we

222
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 2: maybe did with Hillary.

223
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,600
Speaker 1: So one of the distinctions you're pointing out is that

224
00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:00,120
Speaker 1: there's some flooding you can anticipate ahead of time, and

225
00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of flooding you can't, yeah, and that's

226
00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,600
Speaker 1: going to put a lot of burden on communities to

227
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:06,679
Speaker 1: plan for the unknown.

228
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,040
Speaker 2: Right and of course, even with the flooding that you

229
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,559
Speaker 2: can predict, we saw Hurricane Sandy coming right, and it

230
00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,080
Speaker 2: still caused tremendous destruction. At some point, there's only so

231
00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 2: much planning you can do, and then you have to

232
00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,560
Speaker 2: prepare in advance for these things by building up better

233
00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,880
Speaker 2: coastal defenses, building better culverts, building better drainage systems, things

234
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:30,280
Speaker 2: like that. So it's not just about, oh, a storm's coming, everybody,

235
00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 2: you know, head for the hills. It's about we are

236
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,720
Speaker 2: hardened against these disasters that we know are coming, and

237
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 2: we still haven't really done that as a country, not

238
00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,920
Speaker 2: only with flooding but also with wildfires, as we can

239
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,160
Speaker 2: discuss later too.

240
00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,880
Speaker 1: Let's go overseas for a minute. There's a lot of

241
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,680
Speaker 1: places we could go and we talk about flooding, but

242
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,719
Speaker 1: Pakistan resonates with me as one of the most traumatic,

243
00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,640
Speaker 1: you know, victims of floods in the climate change era.

244
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,600
Speaker 1: It's annual almost now, but in certain recent years it's

245
00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:04,000
Speaker 1: all been just devastating, with tens of millions of people

246
00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,400
Speaker 1: dislocated and in many parts of the country they still

247
00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:13,080
Speaker 1: haven't recovered. Does this hit developing nations? You know, economically

248
00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,040
Speaker 1: developed nations have measures for dealing with some of this.

249
00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 1: Does flooding hit economically undeveloped countries in more severe ways?

250
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, they don't have the infrastructure to

251
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,920
Speaker 2: begin with. Maybe they don't have good governance that can

252
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 2: help with relief afterward or preparing people for disasters ahead

253
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,480
Speaker 2: of time. A lot of these places in Pakistan, India,

254
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 2: they have monsoon seasons that they get regularly, but those

255
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 2: monsoons are turning out to be much more destructive than

256
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 2: they have ever been before. So there are a lot

257
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,559
Speaker 2: of ways that they are unprepared for this. I will say,

258
00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,199
Speaker 2: of course, we can't feel too great about how we

259
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,040
Speaker 2: respond to things in the US and in the developed

260
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:55,840
Speaker 2: world either. We have a lot of our own issues

261
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:58,600
Speaker 2: which we can get into. I'm thinking about I visited

262
00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:00,599
Speaker 2: the Virgin Islands last year, and you know that's a

263
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,760
Speaker 2: UK protectorate. They had a massive hurricane there five years ago.

264
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,440
Speaker 2: They're still rebuilding from it. And when I talked to

265
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:09,160
Speaker 2: the locals there about it, they said that the only

266
00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,839
Speaker 2: way they got some of the things up and running

267
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:15,120
Speaker 2: was local billionaires Larry Page and people like that pumped

268
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,880
Speaker 2: money into helping to rebuild and get infrastructure up and

269
00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,040
Speaker 2: running there. But there are still buildings that are wiped

270
00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,480
Speaker 2: out there from a hurricane that happened five years ago.

271
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,960
Speaker 2: So you take that kind of issue and multiply by

272
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,640
Speaker 2: ten or one hundred, and you get what you see

273
00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:29,640
Speaker 2: in like Pakistan and other places like this that don't

274
00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:32,320
Speaker 2: have any infrastructure at all or any way to help

275
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:34,160
Speaker 2: the people recover from these disasters.

276
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. I reported from Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria, and

277
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:42,480
Speaker 1: that's for the Caribbean, a much more developed territory and

278
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,520
Speaker 1: they're still struggling with the impact of that event. All

279
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:48,880
Speaker 1: of this raises, I think a pretty interesting issue, which

280
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 1: is the global North versus the global South. Because the

281
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 1: global North created the industrializations in many different countries, primarily

282
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,839
Speaker 1: Western Europe, in the US, moved into China and India.

283
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,320
Speaker 1: That's created a lot of forces that have caused climate change.

284
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,199
Speaker 1: And while the global North seeks to mitigate those forces,

285
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,199
Speaker 1: the global South is dealing with the impact of climate

286
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,560
Speaker 1: change in a more ruthless way. And then also as

287
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,880
Speaker 1: those economies attempt to modernize. They're being told not to

288
00:14:20,920 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 1: do what the global North did when it was creating

289
00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 1: all the wealth that came out of the industrialization era.

290
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,400
Speaker 1: So there's an enormous amount of tension here that doesn't

291
00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 1: seem easily resolvable to me between the global North and

292
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 1: the global South.

293
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of unfairness there. As you say,

294
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,040
Speaker 2: the US and Western Europe are responsible for the majority

295
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,600
Speaker 2: of the climate change we're seeing now. They pumped out

296
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 2: the most emissions over the past several decades of any

297
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 2: other countries in the world. China has caught up a

298
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,040
Speaker 2: lot recently, but they're still lagging the US in terms

299
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,320
Speaker 2: of emissions, and the US has cut its emissions, but

300
00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 2: not nearly enough. This goes from the high level to

301
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:00,200
Speaker 2: the low level to the personal level. Wealthy people in

302
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 2: this country are responsible for more of the emissions that

303
00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,280
Speaker 2: this country produces than poorer people. But the people of

304
00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 2: lower income and marginalize people suffer the brunt of climate

305
00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 2: disasters in this country, and they're suffering the brunt of

306
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,920
Speaker 2: climate disasters around the world. So they're angry about that.

307
00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,200
Speaker 2: They want money from us, They want reparations of a

308
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,760
Speaker 2: sort from US, and of course the West or the

309
00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 2: global North doesn't want to give that money to them.

310
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,720
Speaker 2: But there is an issue. There's a big issue here,

311
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 2: a big conflict. They want to develop, and they have

312
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,320
Speaker 2: a right to develop, and they aren't responsible for the

313
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,600
Speaker 2: climate change. They have a right to develop. They need

314
00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 2: air conditioning because it's getting hotter. They need air conditioning

315
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 2: to survive. Right, it's a matter of life and death.

316
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 2: Where a lot of people in these countries to have

317
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:46,200
Speaker 2: ac they have to run that some way with electricity.

318
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,880
Speaker 2: If we don't help them somehow develop that electricity in

319
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 2: a green way, in a sustainable way, they're going to

320
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 2: go to the coal plants they already have running. And

321
00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 2: there is an argument to be made. Some people would

322
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,320
Speaker 2: disagree with this. It's a controversy that you need economic

323
00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 2: growth in order to produce the financing that can lead

324
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,120
Speaker 2: to a greener future. And these countries deserve to develop

325
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 2: the way we did. And now we in China produce

326
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,800
Speaker 2: solar panels and wind turbines and all that neat stuff.

327
00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,000
Speaker 2: These people have to get a chance to do that too.

328
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,440
Speaker 2: But we can help shortcut around the whole. We're going

329
00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 2: to destroy the planet for fifty years before we finally

330
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,360
Speaker 2: turn green. We can help shortcut that whole thing by

331
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 2: just going ahead and giving them the money they need

332
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 2: to do grain development right now. And it's a hard

333
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,920
Speaker 2: argument to make here in the US Congress, for example,

334
00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 2: but it's an argument we need to be having or

335
00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 2: a conversation.

336
00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,800
Speaker 1: The US Congress. Don't get me going. Yeah on that note,

337
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,480
Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break Mark to hear

338
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,280
Speaker 1: from one of our sponsors, and then we'll come right back.

339
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 1: We're back with Mark Gangloff of Bloomberg opinion columnists specializing

340
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 1: in the environment and climate change. Mark. We just spent

341
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 1: a chunk of time talking about floods as one manifestation

342
00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,880
Speaker 1: of climate change. Let's change direction and talk about heat.

343
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 1: All of those major storms and floods were also living

344
00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:07,720
Speaker 1: in an unusually hot era. Are those things contradictory fire

345
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: and water.

346
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,680
Speaker 2: Not at all. In fact, they're part of the same thing.

347
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,280
Speaker 2: This energy we're talking about, this extra energy that goes

348
00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 2: into the atmosphere that holds more water. That same heat

349
00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,920
Speaker 2: also leads to drier spells, more droughts. You can see

350
00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,800
Speaker 2: this in Hawaii. We're talking about the Mali wildfires. Hawaii

351
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 2: is a perfect example of this. The southwest sides of

352
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,440
Speaker 2: those Hawaiian islands are protected by mountains from trade winds

353
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,119
Speaker 2: that come down from the northeast, and those trade winds

354
00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,240
Speaker 2: bring a bunch of rain to the northeast sides of

355
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,160
Speaker 2: those islands. On the northeast sides of those islands, they're

356
00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaker 2: getting more rain than ever. On the southwest sides, they're

357
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,679
Speaker 2: getting less rain than ever. They're drier than ever. And

358
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 2: so that's one of the factors that led to the

359
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:50,240
Speaker 2: Mali wildfires. There was extreme drought on the southwestern side

360
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,440
Speaker 2: of Maui down there, and of course you know, they'd

361
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 2: also done away with plantations banana and I think sugarcane

362
00:17:56,280 --> 00:18:00,360
Speaker 2: plantations and replace them with like this dry grass. And

363
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 2: when you have drought and climate change, it gets hotter, drier,

364
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,640
Speaker 2: the undergrowth gets drier faster, and so you have all

365
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 2: this tin and becomes like kindling exactly. I was just

366
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 2: going to say, yeah, and so you have all that

367
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,080
Speaker 2: and all it takes is a spark to light all

368
00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,240
Speaker 2: that up. And that's exactly what happened in Maui. So

369
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,880
Speaker 2: that is what's happening sort of in the world writ large.

370
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 2: You have drier dries, hotter hots and wetter periods of

371
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 2: rain and storms.

372
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,239
Speaker 1: Climate change also essentially increases both the frequency and the

373
00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: intensity of these various events we're talking about. Is there

374
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,919
Speaker 1: more we haven't discussed that's behind that kind of vortex

375
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,200
Speaker 1: of each event almost feeding on its predecessor.

376
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. We talk a lot about like tipping points, and

377
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 2: there are things like the Atlantic meridianal overturning current, which

378
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,119
Speaker 2: is just this big conveyor belt of water that goes

379
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,919
Speaker 2: from the South Atlantic up to the North Atlantic that

380
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,200
Speaker 2: controls all kinds of weather patterns in Europe and the US.

381
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,639
Speaker 2: A changing climate hotter seas is affecting that. It's slowing

382
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 2: that down, which is causing droughts in Africa that are

383
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:07,360
Speaker 2: leading to political unrest in Africa and wars. And it's

384
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,560
Speaker 2: all connected in different ways. You know, Canada, wildfires in

385
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 2: Canada hundreds of miles away affected the air in the

386
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,600
Speaker 2: US to the south. One of the factors that caused

387
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,159
Speaker 2: the big wildfire and Maui was a hurricane that was

388
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,680
Speaker 2: hundreds of miles to the south and just sitting in

389
00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,120
Speaker 2: the middle of the Pacific, And you would think that

390
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 2: would be harmless, but it was causing these hurricane force

391
00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,399
Speaker 2: winds to blow up into Malli. So you had the

392
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: high winds that helped drive the fire when it got sparked.

393
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,840
Speaker 1: Like a bellows to get the logs in their fireplace

394
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,400
Speaker 1: roaring exactly.

395
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 2: And so the planet is all connected. Something that happens

396
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,920
Speaker 2: and the Antarctic will affect the weather or a disaster

397
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,359
Speaker 2: in Europe. And again, you know, you've got all this

398
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,400
Speaker 2: extra energy in the atmosphere making these disasters more likely.

399
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,359
Speaker 2: I mean, there have always been wildfires, there have always

400
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 2: been hurricanes, there've always been droughts. All of these things

401
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,560
Speaker 2: have always happened. But by ratcheting up the energy level

402
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,879
Speaker 2: in the atmosphere, we're making these things more likely and

403
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,240
Speaker 2: more unpredictable and more destructive when they do appen.

404
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: There's so much of climate change currently that feels to

405
00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: me like sci fi movies coming true. You know, I'm

406
00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 1: a Blade Runner fan, and when the wildfires in Canada

407
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:19,640
Speaker 1: turned you know, the New York sky orange, it looked

408
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:20,520
Speaker 1: very Blade Running at me.

409
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:21,520
Speaker 2: It was very Ridley Scott.

410
00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:23,679
Speaker 1: It was very Ridley Scott. And maybe this is our

411
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: punishment we have to actually live now in the sci

412
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,600
Speaker 1: fi movies we make. But Another kind of facet of

413
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 1: sci fi made real is heat domes. Like the term

414
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: heat dome, you know, invokes in my mind, I think

415
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,600
Speaker 1: exactly what it is, But it's also so extraordinary. I

416
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,320
Speaker 1: have this image with this giant atmospheric flying saucer sort

417
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,240
Speaker 1: of just sitting and hovering over a section of the

418
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 1: country and not letting anything escape from its perimeters. In

419
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,320
Speaker 1: this case heat and just sits above it and traps

420
00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 1: the heat and cooks everything beneath it. Am I offering

421
00:20:58,040 --> 00:20:59,719
Speaker 1: a crude description of what goes on?

422
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 2: Actually, that's a really good description of what a heat

423
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,679
Speaker 2: dome is. It's like a lid, giant lid on a pot.

424
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 2: The jet stream, you know. Again, this is we talk

425
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 2: about climate change's effects. Climate change moves the jet stream around,

426
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: It makes it wobble in a wider track than it

427
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 2: usually does. Usually it flows in a nice predictable pattern,

428
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 2: and it helps airflow from west to east. With climate change,

429
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 2: you will make the jet stream jut up to the

430
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: north and just sit there for a long time. And

431
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 2: that's part of the reason we get these heat domes.

432
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,080
Speaker 2: It doesn't allow the air to escape, It keeps air

433
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: trapped over one part of the country for a really

434
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 2: long time. When we're experiencing that right now in the US,

435
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 2: and in fact, you know, you talk about disaster movies.

436
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 2: I think it was in the Day After Tomorrow there's

437
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: there's a there's a screenshot of like five hurricanes all

438
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,639
Speaker 2: happening at once. Well, somebody there was a real picture

439
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,479
Speaker 2: that somebody sent around earlier this year of four massive

440
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: heat domes over the planet, one over the US, one

441
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 2: over the Atlantic, one over Africa, and one over India,

442
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:57,480
Speaker 2: just these massive heat domes, and it was like the

443
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: planet appears to have gone haywire.

444
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 1: And of course in the Day After Tomorrow movies like that,

445
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 1: when they see that up on their screens, they go,

446
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,760
Speaker 1: oh good god. Yeah, yeah, you know, and again it's happening.

447
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:09,679
Speaker 2: In reality, it is, it is, and some of us

448
00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 2: did say, oh good God, and I hope more of

449
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 2: us did, but yeah, we are living through that. But yeah,

450
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 2: that's what the heats on miss. It's a giant lid

451
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 2: that keeps air trapped in place, doesn't let the heat escape,

452
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 2: doesn't let cold air in. You know, that's one of

453
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,359
Speaker 2: the reasons Phoenix cooked at one hundred and ten degrees

454
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,920
Speaker 2: plus for thirty one straight days earlier this year.

455
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 1: And you know Phoenix cooking. I was there a couple

456
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,840
Speaker 1: of years ago in the middle of the last time

457
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: it got very thoroughly baked, and I was at the

458
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: time writing about the water levels in Lake Meat and

459
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 1: what was happening to the water supply in the Southwest.

460
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: We have these towns that we've built in the desert

461
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 1: that were probably never meant to be inhabited in the

462
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 1: way that we inhabit them. But electric grids, roadways and

463
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: of course air conditioning have made places like Phoenix or

464
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 1: Las Vegas inhabitable, at least inhabitable in far larger numbers.

465
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 1: There were indigenous people who lived there quite well for

466
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: a long period of time before we displace them. But

467
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 1: the current world we're in right now is telling us

468
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 1: this isn't sustainable.

469
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 2: Yes, as you say, people lived in those places for

470
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: tens of thousands of years before. But a couple of

471
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 2: things that were different is they had acclimated to the

472
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 2: heat because they didn't have ac it wasn't as hot.

473
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 2: They also had adjusted their architecture their lifestyles. You see

474
00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: it all over the world. People live in very hot places,

475
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: but they build buildings to let airflow. They don't work

476
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 2: in the middle of the day. What we have done

477
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: is we've tried to take the typical American lifestyle with

478
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: a car and a big house and a bunch of

479
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: air conditioning, and we never have to suffer through the

480
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 2: heat or suffer through any kind of like physical pain,

481
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,760
Speaker 2: and we've tried to transplant that into the desert. And

482
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 2: one of the things about those indigenous peoples is that

483
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 2: when the water went away, as it did periodically, the

484
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: civilizations went away too. Like they fought over water and

485
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 2: they killed each other off, or they left, they moved on.

486
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,120
Speaker 2: We are not doing that. We're choosing to stay there

487
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 2: and keep fighting against nature. But nature is currently winning.

488
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 2: We're running out of water. The Colorado River, which you visited,

489
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 2: like meat, is drying up. They're at all time low

490
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: water levels there. They're starting to fight over water. They're

491
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 2: starting to have big conflicts.

492
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: Well, just like the indigenous people. I was thinking that

493
00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: you've brought up that great element of this is that

494
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: the Colorado River was never designed to serve the number

495
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 1: of states and the amount of people that it's now

496
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,480
Speaker 1: being called upon to serve millions a week. So you

497
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: have states now fighting each other for access to the river.

498
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're straining electrical grids. If you build these

499
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: McMansions and sprawl them out across to the desert around Phoenix,

500
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 2: you have electrical goods being strained, and we're having to

501
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: rethink the way we build these cities. There's just no

502
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: escaping it.

503
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: What happens to the human body when it's exposed to

504
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: extreme heat. We have a lot of exterior manifestations of

505
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: climate change. Obviously we're talking about flooding and wildfires, but

506
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: our bodies as well can't sustain the kind of atmospheric

507
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:01,200
Speaker 1: temp we're now in countering.

508
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, as human beings, we evolved in a part of

509
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 2: Africa where if you think about your favorite temperature, I

510
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:09,959
Speaker 2: mean this is not everybody. I know some people who

511
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 2: love it when it's one hundred degrees, I hate it.

512
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: But if you think about your favorite temperature, it's like

513
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 2: seventy four, not humid at all. We evolved in a

514
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: part of Africa where the weather was like that pretty

515
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 2: much all the time, and so our bodies are designed

516
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,280
Speaker 2: to like thrive in that kind of environment. So and

517
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,240
Speaker 2: we can live in extremes, We can live at the poles.

518
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: We live in deserts. Humans can live anywhere, but our

519
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: bodies are designed to maintain a certain level of heat,

520
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 2: and it is very easy to overheat us. A great

521
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: book that I recommend about this is called The Heat

522
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 2: Will Kill You First, Very again, a very cheerful peat title.

523
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 2: Very cheerful for recommending that to our Yes, yes, it's

524
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,439
Speaker 2: something to read. A bedtime for Happy Thoughts by Jeff Goodell.

525
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: It's a great book and it talks about how the

526
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 2: human body responds to heat. He tells some horror stories

527
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 2: that I won't get into here, but it doesn't take

528
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: long to sort of overheat a human body, and you

529
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 2: can be very healthy. You can be a marathon and

530
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 2: you can get overheated very quickly, and you can drink

531
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 2: all the water you want. There are firefighters who were

532
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: fighting fires and drinking gallons of water to stay hydrated,

533
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: but they still overheated. Because it's not about the water

534
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: you drink. The water you drink helps you sweat out,

535
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: but if it's too humid out, or if your body

536
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: temperature rises to a certain level, the only thing that

537
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: you can do is to bring that body temperature down.

538
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 2: And what we saw in places like Phoenix recently. Is

539
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,160
Speaker 2: they were taking body bags and filling them with ice

540
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: and putting people inside the body bags filled with ice

541
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: just to like cool them down enough. Because you start

542
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: to get organ failure, you start to get heatstroke. And

543
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 2: you can see that right away. If you're out running

544
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 2: or something in the heat and you feel dizzy or

545
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 2: you feel disoriented, you are starting to suffer from heatstroke,

546
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 2: and you need to like stop what you're doing and

547
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: go get cool right away.

548
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: Now, let's think about that from an modern civilization has

549
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,919
Speaker 1: brought us to the point where it's sticking people in

550
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: giant ice bags, Yeah, to make sure they can survive.

551
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a good sign, you know.

552
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: Let's talk a bit about the Malibu fires of twenty

553
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: twenty two, which capped a few previous years of fire.

554
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: Were there any lessons from the fires at ravage Malibu?

555
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,160
Speaker 1: They also ravaged Napa. They were among again the most

556
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 1: vivid examples of climate change, not being abstract but coming

557
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 1: into people's homes, coming into people's vineyards, coming into people's streets.

558
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: Mountains were stripped naked of trees and looked prehistoric in

559
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: They're awake. What lessons came out of those fires.

560
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 2: Learned a few different things. I mean, first of all,

561
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: obviously climate change is making fires more frequent, more destructive.

562
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: Another thing is we are moving into these urban wildlife

563
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,959
Speaker 2: interfaces more and more, testing the boundaries, moving into nature,

564
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:39,959
Speaker 2: partly because we don't have affordable housing in the cities.

565
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 2: People are living in a wilderness out in California because

566
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: they can't afford to live in downtown San Francisco or

567
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 2: La because it's just too expensive. So we're pushing people

568
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: to the margins, and again that's where the bad climate

569
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,360
Speaker 2: stuff happens. Another issue was the electrical wires. Pacific gas

570
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: an Electric has been blamed for about thirty of the

571
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 2: wildfires that have started in California since twenty seventeen. They

572
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: deny a lot of that, but they did pay a

573
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: fifty five million dollars settlement last year to avoid criminal

574
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: prosecution and two of the big wildfires. This is again

575
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: part of our issue with not being hardened against climate disasters.

576
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: We have these above ground electrical lines that are aging

577
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 2: that need a lot of maintenance. When we're running wires

578
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: out to houses in the middle of this urban wildlife interface,

579
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:26,719
Speaker 2: you're putting these things in contact with very dry trees.

580
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 2: The same thing happened in Maui allegedly or so well.

581
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: In Maui was dangling wires contact. Yes, the underbrush that

582
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 1: you mentioned earlier exactly, not trees, but it was initially

583
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: started by this kindling we talked about.

584
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: That's right, and electrical wire was involved in that too.

585
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 2: So what's the solution to that, Well, you bury a

586
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 2: bunch of electrical lines underground. But think of the cost

587
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 2: of that. And again, this is one of the things

588
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 2: we were talking about the cost of helping emerging countries

589
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: developing countries against climate change. We have to harden our

590
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 2: own country against climate change too, but it is enormously

591
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 2: expensive and politically controversial to do that.

592
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: I have found Canada's recent struggle wildfires to be compelling, scary, humbling,

593
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: all the things that climate change makes you feel. But

594
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: the other thing it raised for me was this idea

595
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: of climate haven's, which you've spent a lot of time

596
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: writing about. Canada recently had to evacuate the majority of

597
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: its population from the Northwest territories because the wildfires that

598
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: were approaching parts of British Columbia were devastating, and Canada

599
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: as well to the north of US. Obviously, it's known

600
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: for snow and ice and many other things. And it's

601
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: not immune from climate changes reach either, is it.

602
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 2: That's what we're finding out is like nothing is immune.

603
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: There's an article I read and this goes back to

604
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: the idea of the concept that climate change or global

605
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 2: warming is just a gentle turning up of the global

606
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: thermostat by a degree or two. You know, what's the

607
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: big deal. It's going to make Canada more pleasant. We'll

608
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 2: all go live in Wisconsin, will all go live in Buffalo,

609
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 2: warmer winters, warmer winters, more farmland, just fertile farmland in Siberia.

610
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: What's the problem. Well, Siberia is not just fertile farmland now,

611
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: it's getting up to one hundred degrees You've got Siberian

612
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: permafrosts that can thaw out and release all kinds of

613
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: prehistoric diseases. Canada is drying out, and heat domes can

614
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: settle over Canada too, Maybe less likely because of the

615
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: jet stream, but anyway, it gets really hot there. We're

616
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: finding out hotter than we had expected, and hot enough

617
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 2: to help spark these massive wildfires. Vermont is listed as

618
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: maybe the biggest climate haven in the United States, and

619
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: they were all underwater just a month or so ago.

620
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 2: There really are no climate havens. I mean, as we

621
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: talked about in New York, we were suffering. We had

622
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: an apocalyptic scene outside this building because of wildfires. We're

623
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 2: hundreds of miles away in Canada. We are all in

624
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 2: this together. Is the message here. There are really no havens.

625
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: There are places that will deal with it better. You know,

626
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: places at the tropics will be more consistently under stress

627
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: and uninhabitable than say Wisconsin. So maybe you want to

628
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: move to Wisconsin, or maybe you want to move to Buffalo,

629
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: but you also be prepared there, but me to be

630
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 2: prepared there for climate change's effects to reach you too.

631
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: Nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide. Yes, yes,

632
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: let's take another break, Mark, and then when we come back,

633
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: we'll talk about solutions or at least approaches to all

634
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: of this, trying to find the brighter side in this

635
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: challenge while facing We're back with the great Mark Gangloff,

636
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: columnist Extraordinary talking about climate change. Mark, We've been talking

637
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: about some of the most apparent manifestations of climate change, flooding, drought, wildfires.

638
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: We're leaving frost off the menu today so we can

639
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 1: devote part of the show to solutions. I'm inclined to

640
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: say that the first step in all of this is

641
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 1: for everyone to take climate change seriously and stop the

642
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 1: charade of saying it's a media invented myth. You don't

643
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: have to agree with me, but that feels like a

644
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: useful first stop.

645
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: That'd be a good first step. Admitting you have a

646
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: problem is always the first step to recovery. You could

647
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 2: also look at it as I kind of feel like

648
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: most of us have moved on. If you think about

649
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 2: it in the stages of grief, I think you know,

650
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: denial is the first one, and then anger and then bargaining.

651
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are now in the

652
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: bargaining phase. I mean, when I write a climate column,

653
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 2: I still get on social media and in my inbox

654
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: a lot of people saying, oh, it's a myth, Climate's

655
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: always been changing, scaring tactics exactly. Most people don't agree

656
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 2: with that. Now, about seventy percent of the country agrees

657
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: the climate change is real. They may disagree about why

658
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: it's happening, but most of the country agrees that humans

659
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: are causing it. At this point. And if you go

660
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: to Congress and talk to individual Republican congress people, they'll

661
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: tell you they admit it's real, they admit it's happening.

662
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: But now the issue is what do we do about it?

663
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 2: And how fast do we do something about it? And

664
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 2: this is why I think it's the bargaining phase. It's like, Okay,

665
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: maybe it's real, but do we really have to, you know,

666
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 2: drive electric cars? Do we really have to put wind

667
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: turbines out in the ocean? Do we really have to

668
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: do all this? To do we really have to overhaul

669
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: our economy. We don't really want to do that because

670
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: it scares us and we're worried about economic growth. And

671
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 2: I can get into how much the destruction of climate

672
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: change is going to cost us, way more than the

673
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 2: stuff we need to do to prevent it, but anyway,

674
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: they don't think like that. Whatever, that's the phase we're

675
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: in now, And so I think my thing is getting

676
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 2: to the next phase of acceptance and realizing, Okay, this

677
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: is a real problem. As we've been discussing, this is

678
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: a real problem right now. It's affecting us right now,

679
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: and we just start making some changes right now. And

680
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: I do again As I said earlier, I think the

681
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: one hopeful thing to take out of this is that

682
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 2: maybe we're being smacked in the face almost literally, if

683
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 2: you have to go outside New York with a mask on,

684
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: as opposed to inside three years ago. You have to

685
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: go outside with a mask on just to be able

686
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 2: to breathe normally, if your house is about to catch

687
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 2: fire out in Malibu, you can't avoid, you can't escape

688
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 2: these impacts, and maybe it will make people think harder

689
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: about what we can do to mitigate this in the future.

690
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: So let's talk about some of the entities that participate

691
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: in solutions. Let's start with government. We could go down

692
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: a rabbit hole just talking about the Federal Emergency Management

693
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: Agency and the National Flood Insurance Program that it sits

694
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: underneath it as manifestations of the US government's effort to

695
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: deal with this. But do you have thoughts about proactive,

696
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: smart government actions that we know can help.

697
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: Well, first, we really need to overhaul them. FEMA has

698
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 2: always been controversial. It's radically underfunded. We saw it in

699
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,360
Speaker 2: Hurricane Katrina. We see it again and again and again.

700
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 2: It struggles to respond to the disasters, and we're seeing

701
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 2: more of these disasters, and so it needs to be

702
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: bulked up to respond to them. It's about to run out.

703
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 1: For a minute, when we talk about mindset is states

704
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: or citizens who are say their anti government or they

705
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: don't think the government can help. You See, time and again,

706
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: after there's a natural disaster, whether it's a flood or

707
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: hurricane or a wild bar, they actually call on the

708
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: federal government for assistance and want FEMA on their doorstep

709
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: as soon as possible.

710
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: For sure, everybody's a libertarian until you get into your

711
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,640
Speaker 2: house is knocked over by a hurricane. And FEMA is

712
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: about to actually run out of money. And speaking of hurricanes,

713
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 2: hurricane season hasn't even really gotten started yet, and FEMA

714
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 2: is about to run out of money because we've already

715
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: had so many billion dollar disasters in this country that

716
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 2: it just doesn't have the money to handle many more.

717
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: And speaking of which, you know, the National Flood Insurance

718
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: Program is also about to expire. Congress is about to

719
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 2: re up that, and this is another just inefficient, wasteful.

720
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: You know, five million people in this country rely on

721
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 2: that for home insurance, but it heavily subsidizes wealthy homeowners

722
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: who are building McMansions on the coast of Florida, and

723
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 2: it doesn't help out the people who need it the most.

724
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: It also hasn't updated its risk assessments for climate change.

725
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 2: It hasn't updated its flood models for flood maps. It's

726
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 2: flood maps. People in Vermont didn't think they were in

727
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: floodplains and oops, they discovered way too late that they

728
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 2: were in floodplains. And that's going to happen more and

729
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: more often, and so we're nowhere near prepared. So we

730
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: haven't made the economics of flooding rational. We're starving these

731
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 2: agencies because we're not putting a price on our lifestyle

732
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 2: on the way we were not properly pricing the risk.

733
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 1: Of pricing consumption. Water is too cheap. Yeah, certain forms

734
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 1: of energy are mispriced.

735
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 2: Well, this gets into when you ask about the bigger

736
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 2: level things that government can do. The number one thing

737
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: that I think this government can do, which every other

738
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 2: developed country in the world aside from Australia, has done,

739
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 2: is put a real price on carbon. We have to

740
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 2: start charging people for pumping carbon into the atmosphere. And

741
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: instead what we're doing is we're still subsidizing fossil fuel companies.

742
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 2: We're still subsidizing fossil fuel use and consumption. That is

743
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: going away. We're starting to take gas stoves out of homes. Controversial,

744
00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: Every step of this is controversial, right, primy gas stove

745
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 2: out of my cold, dead hands. All of this is controversial.

746
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 2: But we're starting to do that. But we need to

747
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 2: do that faster. You know, the Inflation Reduction Act last

748
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: year was the biggest climate bill we've ever had, but

749
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: it's a bunch of incentives. It's a bunch of we'll

750
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 2: give you some money if you build a wind farm

751
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 2: or whatever. We need to start cracking down now. We

752
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: need to start getting tougher on just the wasteful burning

753
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: of carbon dioxide and energy. So you know, talk about pricing.

754
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 2: That's what we need to price. Is this has a

755
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: huge price on our society and we're not adequately reflecting that.

756
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 2: And then the second thing we need to do is

757
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: that IRA put in place a lot of clean energy investment.

758
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 2: And that's great, but it takes years and years and

759
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: years to get this stuff connected to the grid. It

760
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 2: can take a decade for a wind farm to go

761
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 2: from the planning stage to actually producing energy for somebody,

762
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: and that's just way too much time. We don't have

763
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: a decade. We've got months or years at best.

764
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 1: And the grid itself, it's a crazy quilt of different

765
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: state systems. That's not big enough, it's not expansive enough,

766
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 1: not connect doesn't it's not connected enough, and it doesn't

767
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,399
Speaker 1: generate enough power to meet some of the green solutions

768
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: that we want to embrace. That's right.

769
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: If we want to have everybody driving electric cars in

770
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: a couple of years or by twenty thirty five or whatever,

771
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 2: we need a lot more charging stations. I got an

772
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: electric stove in my house earlier this year, and I

773
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: had to rewire my kitchen because my house was built

774
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: one hundred years ago. It was built for like one

775
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 2: plug or whatever, and so I had to rewire my kitchen.

776
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: Get a new electrical panel in the basement costs a

777
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: lot more money than I expected. But we're going to

778
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 2: have to do that across the country. You know, if

779
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: we're going to electrify everything, we need to upgrade all

780
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: of our electrical stuff. We need to hire more electricians,

781
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: aiproof career idea for you. You want, we have to

782
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: rebuild our infrastructure for this. Again, costs a lot of money.

783
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: But if we're going to meet our goals and cut

784
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: emissions and keep these disasters from getting much much worse,

785
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 2: which we can still do, then this is the kind

786
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 2: of stuff we need to do.

787
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 1: I suppose talking about what the private sector should do

788
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: dovetails with the public sector, But is there anything the

789
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: private sector can do that we haven't landed on.

790
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, the same kind of stuff. And I think

791
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: they have been leading the way. I mean during the

792
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: Trump administration, he got us out of the Paris Accords,

793
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 2: he tried to undo all of the stuff that the

794
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 2: previous administration had done. But in the meantime, plugging along

795
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: in the background, private industry was you know, electrifying, and

796
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: they were getting a lot of this stuff done, and

797
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: the rest of the world was doing that. And so

798
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: the market forces are working in that direction and they

799
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: just need to keep doing that. They need to be

800
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: brave about it, and I think they still are. You know,

801
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: there's this whole ANTIEESG movement happening, but people are still

802
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 2: investing in green energy. At least. I think even if

803
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: you get a CEO he feels squeamish about you know,

804
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 2: whatever woke politics or whatever they still realize that they

805
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 2: don't want their warehouse to burn down or flood. They

806
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: realize that it's cheaper to run a plant on soular

807
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: energy than it is on gas or whatever. So they're

808
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 2: getting those financial incentives just from the market, which is

809
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 2: one of the few optimistic things we can say here today.

810
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: And then maybe they don't want their grandchildren to live

811
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: on a burning marble.

812
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 2: I mean you would think.

813
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. Lastly, what about individuals? What can individuals do that

814
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 1: they're not doing? I think people dutifully try to recycle, more,

815
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 1: people are adopting evs, electrifying their stoves. Are there any

816
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: big things that people need to do on moss as

817
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: individuals that would help things?

818
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: The biggest thing is help elect politicians. I don't care

819
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,280
Speaker 2: what party they are, but politicians that take this seriously

820
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: and want to do something about it. Because you, as

821
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: an individual, you can get an electric car, you can

822
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 2: electrify your house, you can get rid of your pets.

823
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: Pets are a big climate change thing, but you shouldn't

824
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: get rid of your pets. If you la have pets,

825
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 2: keep them. But if you do all these things, you

826
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 2: will reduce your carbon footprint by I don't know by

827
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: a few tons a year. Walmart can do some of

828
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: these things and reduce its carbon footprint by millions and

829
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 2: millions of tons of years. So your individual carbon footprint

830
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 2: is not that big in the grand scheme of things.

831
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 2: And one of the things we have to do as

832
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 2: people is stop feeling guilty about this and stop feeling

833
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: hopeless about this. And I think it's this sort of

834
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 2: evil genius that the fossil fuel industry came up with

835
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 2: the idea of the carbon footprint about you know, fifteen

836
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: years ago or so, and said, you know, look at

837
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: how much you're burning, look at how much carbon you're

838
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 2: pumping into the atmosphere. So that we would feel guilty

839
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: about it and feel helpless about it. You can still

840
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: maybe take a few flights less, maybe get an electric

841
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: carb You can afford it. Again, the wealthier people in

842
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 2: this country can afford to make the bigger changes. All

843
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 2: those things help. Being conscious consumers helps, you know, you

844
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: help drive the market, You help raise demand for sustainable things.

845
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 2: But ultimately, our voices and our attitude are the most

846
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 2: powerful forces that we have. We can raise those voices

847
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: to our neighbors, to our friends. We should realize that

848
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 2: most of the country is worried about climate change. Whether

849
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: you're in a red state or a blue state, most

850
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: people share this concern. So recognizing that first, and so

851
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: feeling free to use that voice to express that and

852
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 2: to elect people that want solutions and try to push

853
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 2: solutions on our own backyard in mass Those are the

854
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 2: most powerful things that we can do as individuals.

855
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: Mark, I call you the climates are inside Bloomberg opinion.

856
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: What have you learned about climate change that you didn't

857
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: know before?

858
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 2: I am learning that the changes are much more complicated

859
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: than I even realized at first. The biggest thing, though,

860
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: I think, is just the energy transitions can be so expensive.

861
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 2: I mean, Bloomberg and EF I always hate to say

862
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 2: this number because it's so terrifying, but Bloomberg a nif

863
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: estimated the world is going to have to spend two

864
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 2: hundred trillion dollars to get our emissions down to avoid

865
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 2: the worst climate disasters. And that sounds like a lot,

866
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: But that is over the next between now and say

867
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: twenty fifty, and then if you start to add up

868
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 2: the costs that happen. Claudia Sam Great Economists were a

869
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 2: column for us that said, it's going to cost maybe

870
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: three hundred billion dollars a year in lost worker productivity

871
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 2: due to heat alone by twenty fifty. And so you

872
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: take those little effects and the effects of hurricanes and

873
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 2: drafts and wildfires and just general health. We haven't even

874
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 2: gotten into the health effects of climate change. How diseases

875
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 2: are moving there, are expanding their horizons and moving into

876
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 2: new areas. All that stuff adds up. And so the

877
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: biggest thing I've learned is to think about these things,

878
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: the transition, the spending on green energy and the like,

879
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: as investments rather than costs, because the real costs are

880
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: what happened if we don't do anything. What we're spending

881
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,760
Speaker 2: to avoid that stuff is an investment and a better future.

882
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 1: Mark, we're out of time. Thank you for sitting down

883
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: with me today.

884
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

885
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,919
Speaker 1: Mark Gongloff is a columnist with Bloomberg Opinion who specializes

886
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: in covering the environment and climate change. You can find

887
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: his work on the Bloomberg Opinion website in the Bloomberg Terminal.

888
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: You can also find him on Twitter at Mark Gongloff.

889
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: Here at crash Course, we believe the collisions can be messy,

890
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: impressive challenging, surprising, and always instructive. In today's Crash Course,

891
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: I learned that fire and flooding aren't really polar opposites

892
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 1: in this new era of climate change. They are actually

893
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: manifestations of one another. What did you learn? We'd love

894
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: to hear from you. You can tweet at the Bloomberg Opinion,

895
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: handle at Opinion or me at Tim O'Brien using the

896
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: hashtag Bloomberg Crash Course. You can also subscribe to our

897
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 1: show wherever you're listening right now, and please leave us

898
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: a review. It helps more people find the show. This

899
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:42,359
Speaker 1: episode was produced by the indispensable Annamazarakas, Moses On Dam

900
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: and Me. Our supervising producer is Magnus Hendrickson, and we

901
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: had editing help from Sage Bauman, Katie Boyce, Jeff Grocott,

902
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 1: Mike Nize and Christine Banden Bylark Blake Maples does our

903
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: sound engineering, and our original theme song was composed by

904
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: Louis Skara. I'm Tim O'Brien. We'll be back next week

905
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: with another Crash Course