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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy call Um for Ted. And

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Speaker 3: this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: This week, a woman struggles with resentment toward her sister,

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Speaker 1: who always seems like the perfect sibling to their parents.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I think, oh, I should be better at this.

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Speaker 4: I should ask them more questions, because that's what Jill

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Speaker 4: does when she's there. She writes questions for the night

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Speaker 4: and has people discuss memories and labels the antiques.

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Speaker 3: And oh my goodness, she is Mary Puppins.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's like I can't compete with that. I

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Speaker 4: don't know how to do that.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the problem.

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Speaker 3: Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 3: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in potter

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Speaker 3: and full, and we may edit it for length and

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Speaker 3: or clarity. Hi, Laurie, how are you? What do we

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Speaker 3: have today?

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Speaker 1: Hey guy? Well, today we have a letter about conflict

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Speaker 1: between siblings.

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Speaker 3: Ooh, that's always interesting because that can go many ways.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so let me go ahead and read you the letter.

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists, I'm having an issue with my sister Jill

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Speaker 1: over the care of our parents. I'm feeling resentful that

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Speaker 1: she flies in for week long visits, makes a big splash,

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Speaker 1: then leaves me to the never ending slog. When my

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Speaker 1: sister comes to town, she busies herself cleaning their house,

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Speaker 1: archiving family history, and in general being Mary Poppins, a

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Speaker 1: regular ray of sunshine and rainbows. While she's here, my

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Speaker 1: parents are happy and bright, gone or my mother's weepiness

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Speaker 1: and my father's grumpiness. It's nice that she's here to

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Speaker 1: share the load, but she will soon fly home phone

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Speaker 1: every other day and return to her life far away,

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Speaker 1: while I will continue to carry the load up close.

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Speaker 1: I've been grumbling for months about needing help, But now

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Speaker 1: I'm resentful of the sunshine and rainbows. While I would

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Speaker 1: like to escape while she's here, hand over the rains

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Speaker 1: and disappear. My sister needs me to make the two

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Speaker 1: five hour round trips to the airport, so I'm bookended

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Speaker 1: by needing to be present. Plus my life continues unabated.

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Speaker 1: My husband says, I'm like the starting pitcher who carries

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Speaker 1: the game, while my sister's the closer who has a

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Speaker 1: particular strength cleaning in rainbows. The analogy helps, but it

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Speaker 1: makes me wonder how many starting pitchers sit in the

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Speaker 1: dugout seething while the closer gets the credit for winning

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Speaker 1: the games silently steaming. I played eight innings and set

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Speaker 1: this guy up for VIC. I'd love whatever advice you

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Speaker 1: have for redirecting my resentment into something more useful. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for your time and attention, Hayley.

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Speaker 3: That'ds a lovely request for advice there at the end,

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Speaker 3: because she's not saying I'd like your help and not

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Speaker 3: feeling resentful. She's saying I'd like to redirect it into

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Speaker 3: something useful that sounds good to me, just as a

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Speaker 3: way to frame things. Resentment is interesting because it's really

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Speaker 3: about a feeling of unfairness, this balance that you're putting

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Speaker 3: out something and not getting enough back, or someone else

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Speaker 3: is getting more than you. There's real math in people's heads,

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Speaker 3: whether they're aware of it or not. When they're resentful,

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Speaker 3: there's accounting going on in their heads.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I wonder whether this counting, or this feeling

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Speaker 1: of unbalance is just specific to this situation, or whether

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Speaker 1: that's something that has gone on between the sisters before

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Speaker 1: when they were growing up.

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Speaker 3: The other interesting thing about the resentment here is is

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Speaker 3: if she's resentful towards her sister, then it's because the

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Speaker 3: response the parents are giving her sister versus her. And

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Speaker 3: in that case, why is you're not resentful towards the parents?

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Speaker 3: In other words, is the sister actually doing something to

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Speaker 3: engender the resentment other than just being herself?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: I think we need to explore the resentment more with her.

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Speaker 1: So let's go talk with her. Yes, you're listening to

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapist from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 1: a quick break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench and this is Dear Therapist.

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Speaker 1: Hi Hayley, Hello, thank you for coming on the show.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much for choosing my letter. I am

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Speaker 4: such a fan of both of you. I feel like

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Speaker 4: I won the lottery. I'm very honored.

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Speaker 3: That's very nice.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. We hope we can help you today.

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Speaker 3: So HEDI, you use the word slog, the slog with

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Speaker 3: your parents, what are you doing for them? And how

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Speaker 3: much of a slug is it for you?

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Speaker 4: The slog is that they live an hour south of

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Speaker 4: me by their own choice, and both of my sisters

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Speaker 4: live several states away. They're both in their mid eighties.

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Speaker 4: So when this quarantine hit and the pandemic, I became

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Speaker 4: the person to deliver groceries for them, like my husband

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Speaker 4: does the grocery shopping, and he's very good about that,

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Speaker 4: but to keep them safe, he does not go and visit,

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Speaker 4: and I just go. So it's just the three of us,

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Speaker 4: and it has been since March, and I go every week,

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Speaker 4: sometimes twice a week, and I often spend the night,

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Speaker 4: and I cook dinner and I take desserts and just

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Speaker 4: try to be entertaining and keep their spirits up and

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Speaker 4: keep them fed and entertained.

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Speaker 1: Was this an issue before COVID in terms of feeling

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Speaker 1: like you were the only person responsible for being there

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Speaker 1: for your parents.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I do feel that way. I'm always concerned about

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Speaker 4: how my mother is entertained and what they're doing, So

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Speaker 4: it was an issue before this, but I would only

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Speaker 4: see them about every other week, and that would be

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Speaker 4: a get together or a party. None of this shopping,

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Speaker 4: none of this cooking that type of thing.

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Speaker 1: Were you feeling this kind of resentment when the situation

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Speaker 1: was more normal and you didn't have the shopping and

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Speaker 1: the cooking involved.

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Speaker 6: Not really, maybe a little bit when COVID started, and

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Speaker 6: obviously when it did, no one knew how long able

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Speaker 6: to go on. But since then have there been any

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Speaker 6: conversations with you and your two sisters about Hey, guys,

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Speaker 6: look it's COVID, they're in the really high risk group.

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Speaker 6: I know you live far away, but can we make

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Speaker 6: a plan in which we somehow share the responsibilities? Is

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Speaker 6: that conversation a three way conversation ever had?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 5: It?

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Speaker 4: Never did. They took it upon themselves to initiate. I

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Speaker 4: guess a foam tree where one calls my mom one

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Speaker 4: night and the other one the next. But the three

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Speaker 4: of us never did have that conversation.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what your

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Speaker 1: relationship is like with both of your sisters. You mentioned

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Speaker 1: Jill in the letter. Can you tell us the birth

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Speaker 1: order and what your relationship has been like growing up

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Speaker 1: and what it's like as adults.

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Speaker 4: Okay, my oldest sister is Eve, and Jill is the middle,

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Speaker 4: and I'm the youngest. I think we all get along

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Speaker 4: in different ways. Eve is sort of politically different than

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Speaker 4: me and Jill. We don't have hard conversations. I guess

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Speaker 4: we just get along. I suppose they're pretty good relationships.

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Speaker 3: Does Eve participate in this rotation in any way? Because

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Speaker 3: you mentioned Jill flying in and doing the Mary Poppins thing.

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Speaker 3: What about Eve?

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Speaker 4: No, she stays at home.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you get along, but you're not necessarily

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Speaker 1: super close. Were you claymates as kids, were your friends

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Speaker 1: as kids? Or were you just very different from one another.

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Speaker 4: I was very different from them, so they got along

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Speaker 4: much better and they actually ended up in the same grade.

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Speaker 4: And I was two years younger in school and was

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Speaker 4: always the black sheep. To be honest with you, they

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Speaker 4: would tell on me. I would get in trouble and

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Speaker 4: sort of the scapegoat for things that were going wrong

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Speaker 4: in the family.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of that.

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Speaker 4: I think an example would be that I think I

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Speaker 4: see my father more clearly for who he is, and

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Speaker 4: neither one of them sees any faults in him. So

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Speaker 4: I would be the one sort of saying the emperor

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Speaker 4: has no clothes, and they would be the people saying, no,

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Speaker 4: he's perfect. And he might be a perfect man, but

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Speaker 4: he wasn't a perfect father for me because I'm artistic

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Speaker 4: and he was military. So there was always that that conflict.

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Speaker 4: So I stood outside of the four of them quite

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Speaker 4: a bit for that way of thinking and was punished

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Speaker 4: for it.

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Speaker 3: So you were feeling left out in your family. It

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Speaker 3: sounds like from pretty early on when you say I

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Speaker 3: was outside of the four of them, it wasn't just

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Speaker 3: your two sisters then who was seeing eye to eye.

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Speaker 3: But it sounds you're saying the four of them were

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Speaker 3: and I was the one that felt left out in a.

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Speaker 4: Way, right right? It was always my fault when things

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Speaker 4: didn't work. My mother was always very angry with me

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Speaker 4: for not getting along with my dad.

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Speaker 1: What did she want you to do to get along

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Speaker 1: better with your dad?

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Speaker 4: That's a good question. Just think he was a nice guy.

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Speaker 4: See him for his positive characteristics.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, if he's military, you just needed to march

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Speaker 3: information as it were with your sisters. That then you

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Speaker 3: were not marching information with your family, perhaps not just

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Speaker 3: your sisters. Yeah, So what did that feel like growing up?

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Speaker 3: Because that's quite stark what you're describing. It's not just oh, yes,

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Speaker 3: I had two older sisters and they would sometimes going

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Speaker 3: up on me. It was this feeling like I'm really

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Speaker 3: different from the entire family. There's something that I'm seeing

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Speaker 3: and that I'm feeling that's different. What was that like

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Speaker 3: for you growing up with that feeling?

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Speaker 4: It was probably very lonely, But in a way I

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Speaker 4: didn't mind being alone because I didn't want to be

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Speaker 4: with them. It was better. It was better to be alone.

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Speaker 1: You know, sometimes when people are in your situation, on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, they feel like it's better to be

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Speaker 1: alone because you're glad to have the freedom to feel

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Speaker 1: how you feel, to think how you think, you sound

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Speaker 1: like you were more artistic and creative to be able

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Speaker 1: to acknowledge that side of yourself. But sometimes there's also,

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Speaker 1: at the same time another part that feels almost envious

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Speaker 1: of them because they're not seeing what you're seeing. They're

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Speaker 1: not thinking more deeply, and so it just feels easier

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Speaker 1: for them because they all just get along and it

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Speaker 1: just seems so easy, and so sometimes it's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that I see the world in this way, but

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Speaker 1: wouldn't it be easier if I didn't?

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Speaker 4: Definitely, that was definitely there.

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Speaker 3: The letter you wrote to us is about resentment, and

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Speaker 3: it's about resentment for the current very specific situation, but

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Speaker 3: it sounds like they might have been cause for you

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Speaker 3: to feel resentment long ago as well, for being marginalized,

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Speaker 3: or for feeding the part for your sister's giving you

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Speaker 3: a hard time. Do you recall feeding resentment as a

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Speaker 3: child or as an adolescent.

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Speaker 4: I mostly resented my mother forcing me to get along

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Speaker 4: with my dad when he wasn't nice to me. They

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Speaker 4: didn't see that, but he wasn't and he was good

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Speaker 4: about doing it when nobody else was around. So I

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Speaker 4: resented that nobody took my side.

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Speaker 3: Can you give us an example of the kind of

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Speaker 3: thing he would do when no one was around to you?

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Speaker 4: It was never physical. He would just speak very sternly

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Speaker 4: to me, yell at me when I wasn't getting the point.

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Speaker 4: Up into my twenties, we would be alone in the

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Speaker 4: house and he would just come and say, tell me,

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Speaker 4: you know, very in your face, in my face, kind

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Speaker 4: of like a drill sergeant.

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Speaker 3: And he would not do that to your sisters.

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Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, he didn't have a reason to

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Speaker 4: do it to them. They got along with him, and

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Speaker 4: you know when he said jump, they said how hi?

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Speaker 4: And when he said jump, I said why. He's not

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Speaker 4: good at giving reasons. He just wants you to do it.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting that your letter talks a lot about your sister,

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Speaker 1: and right now you're talking about your resentment towards your mother,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder if there was also a resentment towards

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Speaker 1: your sisters for blaming you for things.

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Speaker 4: They got me in trouble. Like one time when I

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Speaker 4: was a teenager, I snuck out of the house and

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Speaker 4: it was New Year's Eve, I think, and I was

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Speaker 4: coming back in and they noticed and they locked the door,

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Speaker 4: and instead of what I thought a good so would do,

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Speaker 4: which would be to help me get inside, they woke

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Speaker 4: up my dad and they got me in trouble. So

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Speaker 4: that was not nice.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like they got pleasure from seeing you get

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Speaker 1: in trouble. What it does is it solidifies the family dynamic.

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Speaker 1: It solidifies your position as the outsider. There. You're literally

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Speaker 1: the outsider. You were locked out of the house.

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Speaker 4: It's very true.

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Speaker 3: The thing that's interesting about resentment is that it's truly

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Speaker 3: about the feeling of a lack of fairness, that you're

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Speaker 3: not getting something that you deserve, or someone's getting more

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Speaker 3: than you, and when they don't deserve getting more than you.

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Speaker 3: And when you're describing your childhood with your parents and

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Speaker 3: your sisters, it sounds like there's a thread of the

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Speaker 3: lack of fairness that's going on because they all seem

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Speaker 3: to get along. And it's not just that they got along,

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Speaker 3: but they seem to see I to eye and kind

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Speaker 3: of agree with each other and have the same philosophy

285
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Speaker 3: and the same approach and understanding of what one should do.

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Speaker 3: And so it was almost easy for them to get along.

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Speaker 3: They didn't really have to bend themselves into a pretzel.

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Speaker 3: And you not only didn't fit in, but you also

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Speaker 3: didn't want to bend yourself into a pretzel, so you

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Speaker 3: stood out even more. And that's why I was asking

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Speaker 3: about whether you've had this feeling of unfairness for a

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Speaker 3: really long time In your family.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's funny because I never thought that that was

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Speaker 4: an issue of mine until I got married and I

295
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Speaker 4: was dating my husband and he said, wow, so everything's

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Speaker 4: got to be fair. And I realized then, how often

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Speaker 4: I say that's not fair? Why did she get to

298
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Speaker 4: do that? That's not fair? So it probably has been there.

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Speaker 4: I don't remember feeling it as a kid, but he

300
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Speaker 4: definitely brought it to my attention.

301
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Speaker 1: When you were younger and you felt that things weren't fair,

302
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Speaker 1: who did you go to to talk about that? It

303
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Speaker 1: sounds like you probably didn't go to your father. Did

304
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Speaker 1: you go to your mother?

305
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Speaker 4: I might have, but she was very invested in having

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Speaker 4: him be right, So I don't think she ever agreed

307
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Speaker 4: with me and said, you're right, that's not fair. It

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Speaker 4: was just more of a well that's what he said.

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Speaker 1: Was there ever a time when there was something that

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Speaker 1: your mother did that you felt was not fair? So

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Speaker 1: it wasn't about your father, Well, it.

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Speaker 4: Was related to him. Like I got a ticket once

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Speaker 4: and they mailed it to the house and she opened

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Speaker 4: it up and read it and said what did you

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Speaker 4: get this ticket for? And I said, why did you

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Speaker 4: read my mail? And she said, well, the envelope wasn't sealed,

317
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Speaker 4: so I said, well, don't tell dad, and she said, oh,

318
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Speaker 4: I have to tell your father. I tell your father everything.

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Speaker 4: And I thought, that's that's not fair, like A, you

320
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Speaker 4: read my letter and B you're telling him. And see

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Speaker 4: I was an adult. I think I was in my twenties,

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Speaker 4: and it just it wasn't fair when you.

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Speaker 1: Said to her, you know, please don't tell him, and

324
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Speaker 1: she said, I have to tell him. What did you

325
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Speaker 1: do at that point? What do those conversations look like?

326
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Speaker 1: Do you just backed down or do you actually.

327
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Speaker 4: Oh, I probably got pretty mad, but she was equally firm.

328
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Speaker 4: And this was marriage, and this is what married people do.

329
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Speaker 4: They don't have secrets from each other, and she couldn't

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Speaker 4: keep this secret from him, so she had to tell him.

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Speaker 3: You know, I think I realized why you're feeling so

332
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Speaker 3: resentful about the current situation because you have no allies

333
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,919
Speaker 3: that you can go to. In other words, you can't

334
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 3: express it to your mom, or to your dad, or

335
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 3: to your sisters because that will just be you drawing

336
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:09,520
Speaker 3: a line between you and them again, because they all

337
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 3: seem fine with the arrangement. You're the one that doesn't. Again,

338
00:20:13,439 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 3: you're the one that doesn't fit in, and so that's

339
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 3: something that's going on that the resentment and the frustration

340
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 3: is not just about the unfairness of the current situation

341
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Speaker 3: and the heavy load that's on your shoulders. Do you

342
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Speaker 3: would think, given the relationship and how close your sisters

343
00:20:28,159 --> 00:20:30,479
Speaker 3: were to your parents and how much they think like

344
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Speaker 3: them even today, they would be the ones carrying that load.

345
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Speaker 3: But because of the geography, it falls on you. And

346
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 3: yet if you complained about it or said something, then

347
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 3: they might close ranks again and be like, Nope, that's

348
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,640
Speaker 3: you being different.

349
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Speaker 4: I think that's very true. That's a very good point

350
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Speaker 4: because I have felt very alone in this and when

351
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Speaker 4: I would ask my husband back in March, I would say, oh,

352
00:20:55,399 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 4: please come with me, just please come and have dinner

353
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Speaker 4: with us. It's just so hard with just the three

354
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,399
Speaker 4: of us, it's just so hard to have the conversation

355
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,840
Speaker 4: twice a week. And he would say, well, I can't

356
00:21:05,919 --> 00:21:09,039
Speaker 4: I grocery shop. I'm keeping them healthy, I'm keeping them safe,

357
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,399
Speaker 4: And so I couldn't even talk to him about it.

358
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Speaker 1: Even though he couldn't come with you. Do you feel

359
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,679
Speaker 1: like he's an ally in the sense of understanding how

360
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 1: you feel about the situation and the added layer of

361
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 1: perceived unfairness. It seems like often when you were growing up,

362
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 1: people pointed out the things you did wrong, and they

363
00:21:36,879 --> 00:21:39,879
Speaker 1: didn't protect you. They didn't have your back when things

364
00:21:39,919 --> 00:21:43,600
Speaker 1: went wrong, like New Year's Eve or like getting a ticket,

365
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,759
Speaker 1: and so you're left with being the person who's in

366
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Speaker 1: the trenches, who's doing the daily slog. And I wonder

367
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Speaker 1: if your husband understands that aspect of it. Do you

368
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Speaker 1: feel like you have some emotional support from him, or

369
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,719
Speaker 1: does he also feel like, well, that just how it

370
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 1: is and you just have to deal with it.

371
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 4: He's probably getting a better idea of it. I think

372
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Speaker 4: he has trouble relating to my situation because he didn't

373
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Speaker 4: grow up with his dad, So whenever I complain about

374
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Speaker 4: my dad, he thinks, well, at least you had one.

375
00:22:22,159 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 4: But I was talking to him more about it the

376
00:22:25,879 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 4: other night, because he did come to dinner with me finally,

377
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:34,639
Speaker 4: and I got the chance to tell him more about

378
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 4: how it had been for me when I was young,

379
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 4: with my dad yelling at me, and I think he

380
00:22:39,159 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 4: heard it for the first time and didn't kind of

381
00:22:42,399 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 4: defend it and say that I was lucky to have

382
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Speaker 4: a dad in the house.

383
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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it almost repeats the pattern that was going

384
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: on in your house when you go to your husband

385
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: for support and he says, well, you know, you don't

386
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 1: have it that bad.

387
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was not helpful because I wouldn't wish it

388
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 4: on anybody, But it wasn't very understanding on his part.

389
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 4: But I think we're getting asked that.

390
00:23:11,439 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 3: Do your parents express appreciation for the incredible efforts that

391
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 3: you're putting forth to really provide for them to keep

392
00:23:19,639 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: them safe.

393
00:23:20,439 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 4: They do. They do. My mother is very appreciative, and

394
00:23:25,399 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 4: she thanks me and sends me emails and sends me notes,

395
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 4: and my dad says thank you, and they are appreciative.

396
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: And it's really great that they're appreciative. That helps a lot.

397
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:42,800
Speaker 1: But I think that there's something else that you still

398
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 1: want from them, which is an acknowledgement of your goodness.

399
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: And I see you nodding there, right. You weren't really

400
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: seen and appreciated for who you are when you were

401
00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,759
Speaker 1: growing up, and so what they're appreciating right now is

402
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: what you're doing for them, which again is good. But

403
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: I think that there's still a yearning for you to

404
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 1: have them appreciate who you are as a person, your creativity,

405
00:24:17,159 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: how artistic you are, your ways of being an independent

406
00:24:22,159 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: person and being able to think for yourself.

407
00:24:26,679 --> 00:24:28,759
Speaker 3: Even devotion and loyalty, right.

408
00:24:28,679 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: Her generosity, her devotion, her loyalty, all of that, but

409
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 1: to appreciate who you are as a person, your essence.

410
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: And so when your sister comes in and you said,

411
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,799
Speaker 1: like Mary Poppins, and what they see is not just

412
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: everything she's doing that week, but I think that you

413
00:24:47,679 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 1: have a sense they see something else in her that

414
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: they haven't really looked hard enough to see in you.

415
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: They really like her essence because it mirrors their own.

416
00:25:00,919 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 1: I think you're fighting here not just for recognition of

417
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: what you're doing for them now, but recognition of your personhood.

418
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 3: Haley, I see you nodding a lot, and I guess

419
00:25:13,639 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 3: I'm wondering when you're there, when you're talking to them,

420
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: are you telling them about your life? Are they asking

421
00:25:21,679 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 3: questions about what's going on with you? Are they getting

422
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 3: to know you the adult you, and what your life

423
00:25:28,679 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 3: is about and what you are about? Other opportunities for

424
00:25:31,159 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 3: that when you spend.

425
00:25:31,919 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 4: Time there there are I feel like I talk too

426
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 4: much about myself, though, you know, it's not that interesting.

427
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 4: Day to day. I'm a writer. I sit in this

428
00:25:42,679 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 4: room and sometimes I think, oh, I should be better

429
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 4: at this. I should ask them more questions, because that's

430
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 4: what Jill does when she's there. She writes questions for

431
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 4: the night and has people discuss memories and labels the

432
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 4: antiques and oh.

433
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 3: My goodness, she is Mary Puppins.

434
00:26:02,399 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can't compete with that. I don't know how

435
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:07,479
Speaker 4: to do that.

436
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,159
Speaker 1: They ask you at all about what you're writing. Do

437
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: they show an interest in your writing?

438
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 4: My mom does more than my dad, to the point

439
00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 4: that I kind of try not to talk to her

440
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,559
Speaker 4: about it because she's always begging me to read it,

441
00:26:23,639 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: and she gets really weepy because I don't let her

442
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 4: read my work anymore. It's a little bit of a

443
00:26:30,639 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 4: touchy subject. And I think they didn't like the work

444
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 4: I did when I was in graduate school because there

445
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 4: were some pretty raw poems about my life and they

446
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 4: didn't really care for that. So the whole thing, whenever

447
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 4: I start talking about poems, they look like deers in

448
00:26:49,639 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 4: the headlights, like, oh God, please don't talk about your poems.

449
00:26:52,399 --> 00:26:56,199
Speaker 4: They're painful. That is something I could talk about I

450
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 4: can talk forever about writing, but that's not their favorite subject.

451
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: But it sounds like you're the truth speaker in the family, right,

452
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 3: Like you're the one that speaks the truth and everyone

453
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 3: else just kind of full nine and doesn't dress things right,

454
00:27:11,679 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 3: and the other one that speaks about what's actually going on.

455
00:27:15,919 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 4: Right, You're exactly right, and that's been my role my

456
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 4: whole life. And I had a counselor once and she

457
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 4: said to me, but you need to realize nobody likes

458
00:27:24,439 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 4: the person who tells the truth. That's not a way

459
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 4: to be popular. So I was like, well, okay, I'm

460
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 4: not popular.

461
00:27:33,399 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 3: Well yet another person who wasn't seeing it you away, no,

462
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 3: and this one was your counselor.

463
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: That's unfortunately, there's something very liberating about being the truth teller,

464
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: and it's hard to see when you're on the outside

465
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: and you felt like an outsider for so long. But

466
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 1: what you're not seeing are their struggles, because if the

467
00:27:56,159 --> 00:28:00,120
Speaker 1: truth is so threatening to them, if the truth feels

468
00:28:00,159 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: so painful to them, there's a struggle going on there.

469
00:28:03,919 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: It just looks very different from the way yours is expressed.

470
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,959
Speaker 4: You mean, it's a struggle for them to keep the

471
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 4: truth hidden. So you think they know it, You think

472
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 4: they don't need me to say it, like they already know.

473
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 3: It's not about keeping the truth hidden, it's about not

474
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 3: even asking questions to uncover it h a lot of

475
00:28:24,159 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 3: the time, right, So it's not that they're sitting there thinking, ooh,

476
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 3: I agree with her totally, but I don't want to

477
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: admit it. They're not doing that exploration. They're not asking

478
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: those questions that they would have to answer with truths.

479
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: And that's because anytime they might go there just kind

480
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: of tiptoe over there in their minds, they immediately retreat.

481
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,999
Speaker 1: And you are saying, wait a minute, I'm not just

482
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: tiptoeing over there. I'm running full force over there.

483
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm going to stop my way over there and

484
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 4: stop my way back and tell you what I found

485
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: out when I was over there.

486
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 3: And you said it in your letter. Jill comes in

487
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 3: with rainbows and sunshine and sunshine and rainbows and unicorns

488
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 3: and who knows what, and that so much more, repeating

489
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: to them, Yes, let's have the sunshine and the rainbows,

490
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 3: not this truth thing that you, Hailey keep peddling. Albeit

491
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: now that I'm saying that the fact that your mom

492
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,959
Speaker 3: is curious to see the writing when she knows that

493
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: you're the truth teller, when she's had the experience of

494
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,519
Speaker 3: reading your poems and going like that means there's a

495
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 3: part of her that does want to know, even if

496
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 3: it's to be able to mount a very strong defense

497
00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 3: against what you're saying. But there's a part of them

498
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 3: that's curious. She might be the only one.

499
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're probably right, but there have been enough conversations

500
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 4: about I can't believe you see me that way. It's

501
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 4: like I can't be your psychiatrist too, you know, I

502
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 4: can't help you come to peace with how I feel.

503
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: It sounds like she feels blamed as opposed to being

504
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 1: curious about your experience.

505
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would agree.

506
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: And that makes it hard for her to hear it.

507
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: And I wonder if your sisters feel the same way.

508
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 1: What is their relationship to the things that you've written.

509
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 4: They haven't read anything in a long time. It's like

510
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 4: being a teenager in the house. I go in my

511
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 4: room and that's kind of where I am and my

512
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,240
Speaker 4: writing stays, which isn't a good place to be as

513
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 4: a writer because I'm torn about getting it out into

514
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 4: the world. I think this whole thing holds me back

515
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,719
Speaker 4: in that way, because.

516
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 3: Then we'll have to explain, defend, and have their directed

517
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 3: towards you.

518
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: Yep, yep.

519
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 1: That you said they hadn't seen your writing in a

520
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 1: long time, meaning they used to read your writing. Yeah.

521
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 4: I used to publish little chap books when I was

522
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 4: in graduate school. The poems I had written each semester

523
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 4: I would print out and make covers for and I

524
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 4: would sell them at these readings I did and give

525
00:30:58,400 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 4: them to my family.

526
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: So what did your sister say about the poems?

527
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 4: Usually never much. My one sister, Eve was really into it,

528
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 4: and she always says, I can't wait till you publish

529
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 4: a book. I can't wait to read it. And I

530
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 4: think Jill just didn't know what to say.

531
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: What was it like for Eve to be interested in

532
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: your writing?

533
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 4: It was good, It was nice. She kept all my

534
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 4: chap books. It was an interesting place for us to

535
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 4: meet on that level.

536
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: Did you talk at all about the content of the poems.

537
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: It sounds like they were about your family And you said,

538
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,999
Speaker 1: she's the one you politically disagree with the most. Is

539
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: she the person that you disagree the most with? About

540
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: what the reality is in your family. Did you find

541
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: anything in there and say, oh, yeah, I felt that

542
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: way too, or I can see how you saw that.

543
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 4: No, never any of that. We never talked about the issues.

544
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 4: What we do align on is how tiresome Jill is sometimes,

545
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 4: how even I both get tired of this sort of

546
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 4: Mary Poppins aspect, and we can roll our eyes about

547
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 4: that together. She complains to me about Jill's kids, and

548
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 4: Jill complains to me about Eve's kids, and so that's

549
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 4: kind of where we meet on this level. Had nothing

550
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 4: to do with my writing Where is Eve?

551
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 3: In terms of taking care of your parents? Jill comes

552
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,519
Speaker 3: in and does the Mary Poppins thing, and you there

553
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 3: on the daily grind, Where's Eve?

554
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 4: Eve stays at home, her family isn't quarantining very much.

555
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 4: She can't come visit, or she won't. My mom doesn't

556
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 4: enjoy her as much as she enjoys Jill, because they're

557
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:04,719
Speaker 4: politically different too. And Eve has a bit of a

558
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 4: hot temper. She's a little a little more difficult to

559
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 4: be around, a little angry. She's a little bit of

560
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 4: an angry person. So I don't think Mom misses her

561
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: not coming. I'm sure, she misses her, that's a terrible

562
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 4: thing to say, but she stays where she is.

563
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 3: So the resentment you feel. There are these four people

564
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: in your family, to whom do you feel most resentful,

565
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 3: to whom least. I'm look at the resentment pie and

566
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 3: let's see who gets what portions.

567
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 4: That's a really good question. I think I give fifty

568
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 4: percent to my parents, because.

569
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: You separate your parents, Okay.

570
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 4: I would give my dad. I'm just gonna give it

571
00:33:55,920 --> 00:34:00,239
Speaker 4: all equally. Everybody gets twenty five percent of the pie.

572
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,519
Speaker 3: Is that a math phobia or is that how you

573
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 3: really feel?

574
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 4: It's because I'm not good at maths, but it's also.

575
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: Then just rank them. Can rank it from most to least.

576
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: Where the resentment is the most and where the resentment

577
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: is the least.

578
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 4: I think I resent my dad the most, but he

579
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 4: is honestly tied with my mom because they had this

580
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 4: opportunity to live closer to where I live, on more

581
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 4: of a family compound. And when they were making this choice,

582
00:34:33,240 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 4: I said to them, and this was ten years ago,

583
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 4: I said, I really think you should move on that

584
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 4: family compound. It'll just be better for you. It'll be

585
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 4: closer to people that you know, and they refused, and

586
00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 4: so they moved to this other house and now they

587
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 4: live an hour away. And I sit here thinking, I'm

588
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,720
Speaker 4: the one who knew you should have moved to this place,

589
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 4: and now I'm the one that's got to drive two

590
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 4: hours every time to this place you moved to that

591
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 4: I didn't think you should move to in the first place.

592
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 4: So that's a lot of my resentment about all of this.

593
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 4: And when I told my husband that the first time,

594
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 4: he said, you know what, I worry about you resenting

595
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 4: something that you can't change. So I just kind of

596
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 4: shut up about that and thought, okay, well, I'll resent

597
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 4: that quietly.

598
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 1: Then it sounds like it's so hard for you to

599
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: talk about your resentment because every time you talk about it,

600
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 1: you get shut down. Even with your husband, he's not

601
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: trying to shut you down, but he's not making space

602
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: for it either.

603
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 4: I agree.

604
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: I want to go back because we didn't finish on

605
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: that ranking scale. Hm, it was hard for you to say,

606
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 1: I'm resentful that they didn't consider me in the move,

607
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: and now I'm bearing the burden of that.

608
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

609
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you put them first in the ranking.

610
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: Where do Eve and Jill fall who falls next in

611
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: terms of your resentment.

612
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 4: Eve, because she doesn't really seem to be doing anything,

613
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 4: Like she sent me some bottles of wine at the

614
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 4: very beginning, like here, you're doing a great job, which

615
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 4: I really appreciated. But that was like April. So now

616
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 4: I think she calls my mom. I think she feels

617
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 4: like she's doing her part that way, but it's it's

618
00:36:31,240 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 4: not a lot.

619
00:36:32,720 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: So Jill is the person that you're least resentful of

620
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: in your family. But your whole letter was about Jill.

621
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:40,280
Speaker 3: I know.

622
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 4: That's very true. And I think it was because she

623
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 4: was here and I could see it firsthand, like how

624
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 4: bright my mom was and how bubbly and how excited

625
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 4: they were, and I thought, wow, I come here and.

626
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,320
Speaker 1: It's like, hey, you know, you don't get the same reception.

627
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm the food that they eat every day. They're

628
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 4: just tired of this dish and then they got something

629
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 4: new and exciting. But I did see it the other

630
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,760
Speaker 4: day with my husband when he came and he was

631
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 4: talking to my dad, and my dad just lit up

632
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 4: and he's telling my husband all these stories about his career.

633
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 4: And I try to ask my dad questions like that

634
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,240
Speaker 4: because I'm curious, and I just get a I don't know,

635
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 4: I don't remember. I just got furious because my dad

636
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 4: was sitting on the floor beaming up at my husband,

637
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 4: and my husband was asking him questions, and I was like,

638
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 4: where's this guy when I'm around, I ask him questions.

639
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 4: I want to know that stuff about his career. And

640
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 4: I don't get that.

641
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 3: You do so much for them. You go there, you cook,

642
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: you shop, you buy, you prepare, you tell them stories,

643
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 3: you stay over. You do so much, and it seems

644
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 3: like you get so little back from them in terms

645
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: of their enthusiasm. Right. You know, your sister Mary Poppins

646
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 3: come into town and they're all mighty, but when it's you,

647
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 3: they're weepy. And your husband comes and now they're all chatty,

648
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 3: but when it's here, they're not. I guess I'm wondering,

649
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 3: HEDI if part of the ist you do so much

650
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: is that you have the hope that if you keep

651
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 3: doing more, maybe they'll finally start to treat you the

652
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 3: way they've treated your sisters and see you with the

653
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: same eyes with which they see Jill.

654
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,320
Speaker 4: I totally agree with that. I totally agree with that,

655
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 4: and as a matter of fact this week, after this

656
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 4: dinner with my husband the other night, I thought, how

657
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 4: do you stop caring? You know? How do you stop

658
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 4: caring if your parent likes you? You know, how do

659
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 4: you get to that point? How do you make.

660
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 3: Peace with that? Right? But that seems so painful?

661
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 4: Right, So how do you stop?

662
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 1: Well maybe that's where the problem has been, is that

663
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: your solution to this has been, well, I don't care,

664
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 1: you said earlier. I was glad that I was the

665
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: outsider because I was the person who saw the truth

666
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: mm hmm. And I was talking about the both and

667
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:10,240
Speaker 1: of that that, yes, and there's something very painful about

668
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: being the person on the outside, even if there are

669
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: benefits to it, and there were benefits that helped you,

670
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: you would not have survived if you had just told

671
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: the line. It would have taken away every shred of

672
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: your identity m hm to pretend to be a person

673
00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: that you weren't. So the good news is you saved

674
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: yourself by saying I'm going to be the person that

675
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 1: I am. But the consequence of that was that it

676
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: became very lonely, and you started to wonder about how

677
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,360
Speaker 1: you were loved in your family. And it's something that

678
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: you still wonder. And so I think the problem is

679
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: that your solution is how do I learn how to

680
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 1: not feel? How do I learn how to not care?

681
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: Which is so at odds with the essence of who

682
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: you are. You're a feeling person, you're a caring person,

683
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 1: you're a writer. You observe, you emote, you see the truth,

684
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 1: you don't pretend. So maybe we can come up with

685
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: a solution for you that doesn't involve trying not to care.

686
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 4: That would be great, because I'm not good at that.

687
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,720
Speaker 4: The not caring, yes, And we're.

688
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: Not trying to get you to not care, because that

689
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: would be asking you to not be human.

690
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,760
Speaker 3: So HENI, we have some advice for you, and it's

691
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 3: related to your essential question about resentment. Great, And here's

692
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 3: how resentment works. It is an equation of what you

693
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: give versus what you get, and there's a deficit, and

694
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 3: that's what engender's resentment. And with your parents, what your

695
00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: resentment is about is that you have been putting in

696
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 3: truly extraordinary efforts. Right you go down there, you shop

697
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 3: for them, you cook for them, you spend the night,

698
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: you try and talk about yourself and tell them stories.

699
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 3: And you said, I try and entertain them. And you know,

700
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 3: if you were to say, like the gladiators, are you

701
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 3: not entertained, they're not, unfortunately, and then what's really making

702
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 3: you resentful is that then Joe sweeps into town and

703
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 3: entertains the shit out of them so easily. Even when

704
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,880
Speaker 3: your husband comes down, your dad gets all animated. And

705
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: so in order to balance that equation, because what you're

706
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 3: doing is not working, right, the investing more and more

707
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 3: to try and get that response from them is not working.

708
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: So therefore the only way to lower the resentment is

709
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: to address the other half of the equation, and that

710
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,280
Speaker 3: is to do less. But they're elderly. The cooking is important,

711
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 3: the shopping is important. The one piece we think you

712
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 3: can withdraw your efforts from, and as you said in

713
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 3: your letter, redirect them to something more useful, is the

714
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 3: entertainment piece, because that's the least successful piece. You can

715
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 3: recruit both sisters to do zooming things with them and

716
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 3: have them watch to the grandkids and whatever it is

717
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 3: to take over some of the entertainment piece, but we

718
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 3: want you to redirect that piece. Great.

719
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: The thing about entertaining them is that you get hurt

720
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: every time because you aren't just trying to make sure

721
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 1: that they're entertained, but you're trying to have them see

722
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: your essence, and that's not happening. And so every time

723
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,760
Speaker 1: you put your efforts there, you're setting yourself.

724
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 3: Up for disappointment and resentment.

725
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: We think that you should redirect your energies toward your

726
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: husband and your adult relationship. In terms of being appreciated

727
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: for who you are in your family, there was not

728
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: a lot of appreciation shown for who you are. There

729
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: was a lot of don't be like that, get in

730
00:43:08,720 --> 00:43:12,240
Speaker 1: line march with the rest of us. It wasn't a

731
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 1: lot of, Oh, you're so interesting. Oh that's an interesting perspective. Oh,

732
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: let me look at your writing. Right, There wasn't a

733
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 1: lot of that. There wasn't a lot of, Oh, I'm

734
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: so glad you're telling the truth, right, I'm so glad

735
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: you're brave.

736
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, none of that.

737
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: You weren't appreciated for your courage, for your bravery, for

738
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: your perceptiveness, no, for your creativity. That was not appreciated.

739
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 1: And so what we'd like you to do is to

740
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 1: redirect that into your adult relationship. And for the next week,

741
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: we would like you and your husband to each write

742
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 1: down once a day, one thing that you truly appreciate

743
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: about the other person's essence, Okay, and then we would

744
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: like you to share that with the other person. Maybe

745
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 1: it's at bedtime, maybe it's at dinner, and we'd like

746
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: you to spend just five minutes sharing what that thing

747
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: is for that day and then telling them about it.

748
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 4: That's so funny because last night he just said people

749
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 4: would kill for your creative mind, and I said, really excellent.

750
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's his first one.

751
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 1: And at the end of the seven days, we would

752
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: like you to report back to us and let us

753
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:40,320
Speaker 1: know first of all, how it felt to know that

754
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: you're taking good care of your parents but also not

755
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: trying to bend over backwards to get something from them

756
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:57,160
Speaker 1: that makes you feel bad every time. And then secondly

757
00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: to let us know how it felt to give and

758
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: get that with your husband.

759
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 4: Okay, So can I ask you a question? Yes, how

760
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 4: do I stop trying to be entertaining with my parents?

761
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 4: What does that look like?

762
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 3: You spend less time there? I don't know. If you

763
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: have to spend the night there.

764
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: You can do groceries and shopping and cooking for the

765
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 1: week and make one trip and drop things off and hello,

766
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: and get them a hug, do some cooking, leave things

767
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: in their freezer. Freezers are great, and get that done

768
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: for them, and then you can zoom in one day

769
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: during the week instead of making a two hour drive. Hey,

770
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: just checking in. How are you guys doing, how's everything

771
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 1: going right right?

772
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: And it's also possible, Hayley, that if they get bored,

773
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 3: they might say, you know, maybe we should move to

774
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 3: that place nearer you, where we can be among other people,

775
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: our age, et cetera, because we're getting a little bored

776
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:10,840
Speaker 3: here with one another, and they might start to notice

777
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:16,800
Speaker 3: your absence and they might start to say to each other, wow,

778
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 3: we really miss Haley. We didn't appreciate how much we

779
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: enjoy her company. And they might even seek it out.

780
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 3: And I think that will feel a lot better to

781
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: you to have them seek you out because they enjoy

782
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 3: your company and they miss it they notice the absence

783
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: than for you to say, see me, hear me, look

784
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 3: at me, appreciate me.

785
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,280
Speaker 5: That would feel different, and then in the meantime you'd

786
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 5: be getting that and focusing your energies on that in

787
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 5: the relationship that you have as an adult with your husband.

788
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:56,280
Speaker 4: That makes sense.

789
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: And you were saying with your husband that recently you

790
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 1: started talking a little bit more about your childhood and

791
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: your relationship with your parents, and he said, wow, I

792
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: didn't know that about you, and that he had a

793
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: new appreciation of the dynamics and patterns in your family,

794
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: and this might give you an opportunity to be seen

795
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 1: more by him, and to see him more and to

796
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:21,240
Speaker 1: get even closer with him, which is where your energies

797
00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 1: really should be directed at this point in your life.

798
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 4: That's good, I agree.

799
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 3: How do you feel about doing that?

800
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 4: I think it makes perfect sense. I don't need to

801
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 4: keep trying to remake this relationship with my parents and

802
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 4: to deepen the one with my husband. Seems a much

803
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 4: more enjoyable, be much more hopeful, useful, And there's more

804
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 4: of a chance that he'll see me in a way

805
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 4: that I want all of me. He sees me better

806
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 4: than they do to begin with. So it's like starting

807
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 4: with a giant step forward. So we look forward to

808
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 4: hearing back from you great. Thank you both so much.

809
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it.

810
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: All right, thanks so much.

811
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 3: So.

812
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: The letter that she sent us was all about her sister,

813
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: but it turned out that when she ranked people on

814
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: the hierarchy of resentment. Her sister was lowest down on

815
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: that list. And so I'm curious to see what happens

816
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: now that she's looking at this a little bit differently,

817
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 1: how she's going to feel when she starts addressing some

818
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: of the underlying issues that she hadn't realized were there.

819
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 3: And family dynamics are like that where you think the

820
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 3: strong emotion you have towards one person is really directed

821
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 3: towards them, but when you explore it, it turns out

822
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,120
Speaker 3: it's actually directed towards someone else. And I'm hoping that

823
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: with this exercise, and obviously it's going to take more

824
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 3: than one week to feel the difference in terms of

825
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: the relationship with her parents, but that she'll be on

826
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 3: a part now so she can really change the balance

827
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 3: of that dynamic so that she's not the one that

828
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 3: keeps trying to get something from them that they're not offering.

829
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's see what happens when she redirects those

830
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,760
Speaker 1: energies toward her relationship with her husband and then also

831
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: stops directing so much energy toward something that really causes

832
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: her a lot of pain.

833
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 3: And what I like about the exercise we gave her

834
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 3: is that it sounds like a simple exercise to have

835
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 3: something you appreciate about a person every day, But since

836
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 3: it's about who they are and not what they do,

837
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: it's actually a little tricky. By day five or six,

838
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 3: you're like, hmm, what can I say there? So it

839
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 3: actually is going to fus.

840
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: Yes, it's not so much about you know, I appreciate

841
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: it that you brought me tea, but it's like I

842
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: appreciate that you're a truth teller. Right, those are very different.

843
00:49:56,800 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 3: It really does make you investigate a little bit and

844
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 3: dig a little bit deeper. So I think that'll be

845
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 3: really nice for her to put effort into a relationship

846
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 3: that actually gives back. You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio,

847
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 3: so we heard from Haley, who to remind you is

848
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 3: Mary Poppin's sister.

849
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 4: Hey, Laurie and guy, it's Hailey. Thank you for your

850
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 4: insightful questions and your helpful advice. The homework assignment to

851
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 4: do less and to direct my attention more to my

852
00:50:47,240 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 4: husband was actually a delight. Last weekend, I didn't go

853
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 4: to visit my parents when I could have, like I

854
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,040
Speaker 4: usually do, but when I thought of making the trip.

855
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 4: I sen the resentment that guy defined the imbalance in

856
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 4: the equation. So I went with groceries only on Monday

857
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 4: instead when I would have gone both days before. You

858
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 4: told me to do less, and that felt very good.

859
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 4: It actually felt very RESTful. While I was at my parents,

860
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 4: I allowed myself to be a bit less needy in

861
00:51:25,720 --> 00:51:31,720
Speaker 4: terms of their approval, and miraculously enough, as I believe

862
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 4: you predicted, they came toward me more. They gave me

863
00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 4: many more compliments and many more words of appreciation, and that,

864
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 4: of course felt very good too. The other part of

865
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 4: the homework, to give and receive more praise for our

866
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 4: good qualities with my husband was equally transformative. After our talk,

867
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 4: I went outside and explained to him what we were

868
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 4: supposed to be doing, and I told him how much

869
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 4: I appreciated his drive to finish this very hard project

870
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 4: he's got going on in the yard, and he in

871
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 4: turn express appreciation for my thoughtful nature, and just in

872
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:20,280
Speaker 4: those few words, in that one instance, it was like

873
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 4: a long closed door between the two of us opened,

874
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 4: and through the week I was thinking about that and

875
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,320
Speaker 4: doing the homework opened my eyes to seeing my husband

876
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 4: again as the man who sees me clearly and who

877
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,720
Speaker 4: loves me very deeply, and that felt like the greatest

878
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 4: gift ever and one that keeps on giving. And while

879
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 4: I thought a lot in metaphors all week, I came

880
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 4: to see my best qualities as a type of currency

881
00:52:56,000 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 4: like euros. And I came to see my father, especially

882
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 4: as a man from another country, one where they spend

883
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 4: rupees or paesos, so he doesn't see the value of

884
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 4: my currency. And that led me to take their lack

885
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 4: of interest in me, their lack of appreciation for my

886
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 4: value much less personally. From there, I saw that when

887
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 4: I begin to feel this need to quote entertain, that

888
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 4: I should take it as a sign that I'm trying

889
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 4: too hard to win someone's approval, and that it will

890
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 4: likely be a failed effort no matter how hard I try,

891
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 4: because they see no value in what I have to offer.

892
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 4: For instance, I'm currently at a writer's residency where we

893
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,320
Speaker 4: share dinner distantly every evening, and there's a woman here

894
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 4: who's slightly disdainful of me, or it feels that way,

895
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:01,200
Speaker 4: And I remembered my metaphor of a currency that someone

896
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 4: doesn't value, and I lay there and I visualize the

897
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 4: rest of the table, and I saw the seven other

898
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 4: people there and how how I got along with them,

899
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 4: and I was able to let this one person go,

900
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:19,800
Speaker 4: and that felt incredibly liberating. Thanks for turning it around

901
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 4: for me.

902
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 1: Well, I thought that was beautiful. And what I loved

903
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: especially was the fact that she had felt, like many

904
00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: people do, that she was still trapped in the childhood

905
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: dynamic and she wasn't able to see her husband clearly,

906
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: and so partly this opened up a whole new avenue

907
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 1: for her and her husband. But the other part that

908
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,440
Speaker 1: was so beautiful was she's a writer and she thinks

909
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:51,360
Speaker 1: in metaphor, and that metaphor was so apt and helped

910
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: her not only to understand her relationship better with her parents,

911
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: but also to understand herself when she goes into that

912
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:01,960
Speaker 1: childhood place in other situations.

913
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 3: We can tell as therapists how well somebody internalizes our

914
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 3: message based on whether they're able to AI up light

915
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,800
Speaker 3: and the situation in which we discussed it, but more importantly,

916
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,000
Speaker 3: if they can generalize it to other situations, because if

917
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,720
Speaker 3: they can, then they not only got it for that situation,

918
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 3: they got something that was behind it. And here she

919
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 3: is generalizing it and coming to all these insights, and

920
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 3: some of them we didn't touch upon, the just completely

921
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: her connections that she made. So to me, that is

922
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,640
Speaker 3: a mark of someone who's not just a great writer,

923
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 3: but she listens so well, you know.

924
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: And she mentioned that she feels like her parents don't

925
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: value her currency. And what we saw happen though, was

926
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 1: that when she became less invested in making them see something,

927
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: it gave them the space to acclimate to this new land,

928
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 1: to this new culture, to this new place that maybe

929
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: isn't their place of comfort. It's a land where it's

930
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: about truth, it's about creativity, it's about seeing things. And

931
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they started getting used to it.

932
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: They expressed more interest in her. They started to say, Hey,

933
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 1: what are these coins that we're not so familiar with?

934
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:16,560
Speaker 1: So I thought that was beautiful.

935
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 3: Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice

936
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 3: from the podcast in your own life, send us a

937
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:34,360
Speaker 3: quick voice memo to Louriandguy at iHeartMedia dot com and

938
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: tell us about it. We may include it in a

939
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 3: future show. Thank you so much for listening. If you're

940
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 3: enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate and

941
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 3: review it.

942
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

943
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,560
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

944
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

945
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

946
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

947
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,760
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

948
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

949
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,280
Speaker 1: Our executive producers for Haciotis. We're produced and edited by

950
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

951
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric. Next week, a transman deals

952
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 1: with family pushback as he begins transitioning right before his

953
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: sister's wedding. My mother will go march for gay rights

954
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:30,440
Speaker 1: and all of.

955
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 7: These things, but as soon as her son comes out

956
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 7: to her that he is part of the transgender community,

957
00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 7: that's where issues start arising, and then it's like, Okay, well,

958
00:57:39,240 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 7: maybe you're not as accepting as you think that you are.

959
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio