Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My
Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. We're out this week, so we
Speaker 1: have a vault episode for you. This is going to
Speaker 1: be Sharks Don't Sink with Jasmine Graham. This was an
Speaker 1: interview episode that originally published seven sixteen, twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: It's a fun chat. Let's jump right in.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My
Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and this episode of Stuff to
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, we're going to be chatting with Jasmine Graham,
Speaker 1: a shark scientist and author of Sharks Don't Sink. This
Speaker 1: is a great book and it is out right now
Speaker 1: in all formats. So I encourage you if this interview
Speaker 1: grabs you, if the subject matter grabs you, especially if
Speaker 1: you're interested in sharks. This is only some great summer
Speaker 1: reading for you, so pick up a copy, especially if
Speaker 1: you are going to go out to the beach or
Speaker 1: in any way experience the ocean this year. So without
Speaker 1: further ado, let's dive right in. Hi, Jasmine, welcome to
Speaker 1: the show.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: The new book Sharks Don't Sink Adventures of a Rogue
Speaker 1: Sharks Scientist is out now in digital, physical, and audio formats.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. It's a science book about sharks,
Speaker 1: but it's also a social advocacy book and a personal memoir.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you. I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you about all of these aspects, but I guess the
Speaker 1: best place to start is the simple question, how'd you
Speaker 1: become interested in shark biology?
Speaker 3: I was always very interested in the ocean, and I
Speaker 3: grew up fishing with my dad and come from a
Speaker 3: fishing family, and so the ocean is always part of me.
Speaker 3: I didn't really think much about sharks. I wasn't one
Speaker 3: of those people that was afraid of them. I wasn't
Speaker 3: super obsessed with them as a kid. They were kind
Speaker 3: of just animals that existed. But whenever I was in
Speaker 3: college working on my marine biology degree, I met a
Speaker 3: professor who studied sharks, and I started talking with him
Speaker 3: and doing some research with him, and they kind of
Speaker 3: fell in love with sharks. I did a lot of
Speaker 3: different marine science research while I was an undergrad, but
Speaker 3: I just kept coming back to sharks because I just
Speaker 3: think they're so cool. They've been here so long, they
Speaker 3: have such neat adaptations, and I've always been someone that
Speaker 3: roots for the underdog, and they're very misunderstood, so I've
Speaker 3: always enjoyed working with them.
Speaker 1: Now, in the book, you discussed the challenges and limitations
Speaker 1: of the academic world. I think a lot of us
Speaker 1: outside of academia only have like a surface level understanding
Speaker 1: of things like publish or perish, and so I might
Speaker 1: ask you to discuss that a little bit for everyone.
Speaker 1: But also, you know, I think it's easy for us
Speaker 1: outsiders to think about science and research as being well, okay,
Speaker 1: this is like a your logical thing, and we let
Speaker 1: ourselves forget that we have all these issues of politics
Speaker 1: and discrimination very much in play in that world as well.
Speaker 1: What are the challenges facing up and coming research scientists
Speaker 1: and scientists of color in particular.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that you point out this perception that
Speaker 3: science is objective and without bias, and that's how science
Speaker 3: should be in its purest form. But obviously science is
Speaker 3: conducted by human beings, and human beings all have biases,
Speaker 3: we have flaws, we're illogical sometimes, and so I think
Speaker 3: it's really hard for people in the science field, not
Speaker 3: just people outside of the science field, but even people
Speaker 3: in the science field to come to terms with that
Speaker 3: that this area of research that we do, you know,
Speaker 3: we do the scientific method and all of that, and
Speaker 3: we like to think of ourselves as being objective. It's
Speaker 3: really hard for us to admit that our biases come
Speaker 3: into play in our scientific research. But that's something that
Speaker 3: we have to deal with because we've seen science be
Speaker 3: used for some really terrible things. We've seen science be
Speaker 3: used as an excuse for genocide, We've seen science create
Speaker 3: atomic bombs, We've seen science do all sorts of really
Speaker 3: not great things, and so we have to recognize that
Speaker 3: we have this responsibility as scientists to try to be objective,
Speaker 3: but recognize that we are not entirely objective, and so
Speaker 3: we have to be critical of how we think, how
Speaker 3: we interact with each other, and all of those things.
Speaker 3: Everything to who gets to present to a scientific conference,
Speaker 3: or who gets to work in somebody's lab, or who's
Speaker 3: invited to speak at this university, all of that has
Speaker 3: bias associated with it, and so we have to work
Speaker 3: really hard to be responsive to that. What that looks
Speaker 3: like in terms of scientists from marginalized communities, it often
Speaker 3: looks like not getting as much mentorship opportunities. It looks
Speaker 3: like not being in the club. You know, there's like
Speaker 3: a there's a clear these are the cool people in science,
Speaker 3: and we all hang out together and we all talk,
Speaker 3: and then there's outside ring of people trying to get
Speaker 3: into the cool club, into the inner circle, as it will.
Speaker 3: And so those in the inner circle have to be
Speaker 3: really mindful of those who are outside the circle trying
Speaker 3: to get in and making sure that they're accessible pathways
Speaker 3: to that. Because science and academia the way that it's
Speaker 3: set up, has a lot of potential for gatekeepers to
Speaker 3: solely decide who gets accepted into a PhD program, who
Speaker 3: gets published. We have this idea of peer review, which
Speaker 3: is really great if you assume that your peers are
Speaker 3: objective and going to be fair and just. And yes,
Speaker 3: there are a lot of people that give fair reviews,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of people whose reviews are biased.
Speaker 3: They see somebody's name and they say, I don't know
Speaker 3: that I trust that person just based off of their name.
Speaker 3: If it's a name that sounds feminine, if it's a
Speaker 3: name that sounds quote unquote foreign. You know, I've had
Speaker 3: people that are in different countries trying to publish work,
Speaker 3: and they complain a lot of times that they get
Speaker 3: really unfair peer reviews that basically imply that because they
Speaker 3: are from a country in the global South, their science
Speaker 3: isn't as credible as somebody from Europe or North America,
Speaker 3: and so that's something that we struggle with. So those
Speaker 3: are just a few examples, but there's lots of areas
Speaker 3: where biased can creep in, and because we like to
Speaker 3: think of ourselves as objective, sometimes we choose to ignore
Speaker 3: those things and kind of stick our head in the sand.
Speaker 3: But we have to really confront it in order to
Speaker 3: make sure that science is actually objective and equitable.
Speaker 1: And us thank you for walking us through that. Could
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about Minorities in Shark Sciences
Speaker 1: or miss how this came together, what sort of work
Speaker 1: it's doing, and where you'd like it to go in
Speaker 1: the future.
Speaker 3: Minorities in Shark Sciences is four years old. So we
Speaker 3: were founded in June of twenty twenty. We actually met
Speaker 3: each other on Twitter, me and the other three co founders,
Speaker 3: and we really wanted to create a sense of community.
Speaker 3: That's what it started out as. We want to create
Speaker 3: a sense of community where people feel like they belong
Speaker 3: in science, where people are able to build their science
Speaker 3: identity in a place where they feel that the rest
Speaker 3: of their identity can come along and they don't have
Speaker 3: to leave it at the door in order to be accepted.
Speaker 3: And so that's sort of where minorities and shark sciences
Speaker 3: came from. Since then, it's grown to be so much
Speaker 3: more than just community. It's grown to be this sort
Speaker 3: of wave of change in marine science and shark science
Speaker 3: in particular, where we were astounded at how many people
Speaker 3: you did an open call of who is trying to
Speaker 3: get into shark research or marine science and feels like
Speaker 3: they are the first or the only person like them
Speaker 3: in the room, come and join us, and five hundred
Speaker 3: people responded. That's a lot of people. And so having
Speaker 3: this movement build of Okay, now we have a responsibility
Speaker 3: to all of these people who are sharing their stories,
Speaker 3: who are pointing out these issues, who want support in
Speaker 3: their universities, in their academic institutions, in their organizations to
Speaker 3: bring these issues to the forefront, because what we found
Speaker 3: is that a lot of people have been experiencing these
Speaker 3: things and have been trying to draw attention to them individually,
Speaker 3: and it's a lot of oh, I think you're imagining
Speaker 3: that they maybe don't mean that, you know, all of
Speaker 3: these sort of but but but but butt and so
Speaker 3: that could be really frustrating to have people not believe
Speaker 3: you whenever you're trying to address something. But you can
Speaker 3: ignore one person, you can maybe ignore two people, ignoring
Speaker 3: five hundred people saying the same thing. That's really hard
Speaker 3: to do. You got to stick your head pretty far
Speaker 3: in that sand. And so that's sort of what this
Speaker 3: movement has become is giving voice to people who haven't
Speaker 3: been able to have their voices amplified before. Doing cutting
Speaker 3: edge research and making sure to elevate people who are
Speaker 3: doing research that maybe wasn't being respected before and being
Speaker 3: able to amplify that work and bring attention to it
Speaker 3: with this collective power that Myths Is an organization has built,
Speaker 3: and then also getting to bring more people into the fold,
Speaker 3: making sure that more people get into that inner circle,
Speaker 3: providing the mentorship experiences. So we do mentorship experiences, we
Speaker 3: do professional development workshops, We help people build skills, all
Speaker 3: of these sorts of skills that you don't learn in school,
Speaker 3: but people expect you to magically know how to do
Speaker 3: and then also getting internships and fellowships and things like that,
Speaker 3: while eliminating the financial barrier associated with that, because that's
Speaker 3: been a huge problem in the past. Is this pay
Speaker 3: to play where you have to pay someone to go
Speaker 3: work for them, which exists in marine science and is
Speaker 3: super common. But if you went to pretty much any
Speaker 3: other field of career, if you say, wanted to go
Speaker 3: intern at Google, it would be absurd for you to
Speaker 3: pay to intern at Google. Google would pay you to
Speaker 3: intern at Google. But in marine science, for reasons, lots
Speaker 3: of reasons, it's flipped where the expectation is you're going
Speaker 3: to pay for this, and so that makes it really
Speaker 3: hard for people to access those experiences. But they need
Speaker 3: those experiences to get the job, to get in that
Speaker 3: inner circle, to meet those people, and so MISS is
Speaker 3: all about eliminating those barriers introducing young people to marine
Speaker 3: science and the ocean early on. We serve what we
Speaker 3: call Kada gray, So we're really interested in bringing everyone
Speaker 3: in and making everyone feel connected, whether that means they
Speaker 3: want to be a scientist or they want to just
Speaker 3: advocate in their everyday lives. We want to make sure
Speaker 3: that people have access to the information about what's going
Speaker 3: on in our ocean ecosystems because it affects all of us.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Now, getting I guess more into sharks again.
Speaker 1: You spend a great deal of the book discussing the
Speaker 1: elegance of sharks, you know, from broad strokes about their
Speaker 1: appearance and evolution, to biological specifics and species level details.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not going to ask you to go
Speaker 1: through all of that here. I encourage listeners to go
Speaker 1: check out the book, But in brief, why are sharks
Speaker 1: such an evolutionary success story? Why have they done so
Speaker 1: well and why have they changed so little?
Speaker 3: That's a great question and something that we as evolutionary
Speaker 3: biologists are really interested in, and we don't have all
Speaker 3: the answers. But something that's really unique about sharks is
Speaker 3: that they've been around on this planet a really long time.
Speaker 3: And when I say a really long time, I mean
Speaker 3: before the dinosaurs, before we had trees, before Saturn had
Speaker 3: its rings. This we're talking four hundred million years of time,
Speaker 3: which I think is really hard for us to grasp
Speaker 3: as human beings who have been on this planet for
Speaker 3: a blink of an eye. But they've been here and
Speaker 3: pretty much not changing that much. The same basic body plan,
Speaker 3: same basic in the time that dinosaurs became chickens. Because
Speaker 3: closest relative to dinosaurs a chicken, it's pretty wild to
Speaker 3: think that sharks kind of looked the same and we
Speaker 3: went from a dinosaur to a chicken and that same
Speaker 3: amount of time, and so it's it's really cool, but
Speaker 3: it's also something that makes it really alarming when we
Speaker 3: think about losing them at the rate that we're losing them.
Speaker 3: So they've survived every mass extinction event thus far, supervolcanoes,
Speaker 3: meteor showers, you know, all of these ice ages, all
Speaker 3: of these things that other organisms didn't survive, they survived.
Speaker 3: But we're in the sixth mass extinction that's driven by people,
Speaker 3: and they're dying an alarming rate, which we should all
Speaker 3: be concerned about because we don't know what the world
Speaker 3: looks like without sharks. Sharks have been here so long
Speaker 3: that we don't even know what happens to an ecosystem
Speaker 3: when they're not there. We have no idea what the
Speaker 3: consequences of that are. And it's also really upsetting to
Speaker 3: think that we as a species are more damaging to
Speaker 3: the marine environment than supervolcanoes and meteor showers. That's pretty bad,
Speaker 3: and we need to start thinking about how we live sustainably.
Speaker 3: How do we coexist with all of these creatures that
Speaker 3: are here inhabiting the planet right now, because we just
Speaker 3: got here and we might not last very long if
Speaker 3: we keep going the way that we're going. And so
Speaker 3: that's something that I think is really important to think about.
Speaker 3: And sharks have all of these really cool adaptations that
Speaker 3: we can really learn from. I mean, Michael Phelps had
Speaker 3: a whole swimsuit designs like the skin of sharks, and
Speaker 3: it was actually so effective that they banded in the Olympics. Like,
Speaker 3: just by copying how a shark's skin is designed, you
Speaker 3: increased your speed so much that it was banned at
Speaker 3: the Olympics. That's wild. Like nature has some really cool
Speaker 3: ways of figuring out how to solve problems, and sharks
Speaker 3: have really solved a lot of them. And so we
Speaker 3: can learn a lot from sharks, but not if they're
Speaker 3: not here.
Speaker 1: You talk about sharks as case selected animals than are
Speaker 1: selected animals, and how that plays into their vulnerability. Can
Speaker 1: you can you walk us through that real quick? What
Speaker 1: does it mean to be a case selected organism.
Speaker 3: Sure, so when we think about the term case selected,
Speaker 3: and that's a term that's been used for a long time,
Speaker 3: people are starting to transition away from it, but I
Speaker 3: think it's really good for this concept. You have an organism,
Speaker 3: think like a sequoia grows for a really long time,
Speaker 3: gets really big, and that's that's great. You know, lives
Speaker 3: a long time, super long life, which is a strategy.
Speaker 3: And then you think of like a mosquito that lives
Speaker 3: and dies pretty much within a couple of days. And
Speaker 3: so you are comparing those two things, and it's not
Speaker 3: that one is more effective. Mosquitos, you know, are effective
Speaker 3: at existing. Sequoias are effective at existing until you introduce
Speaker 3: something like people and all the things that we do
Speaker 3: that causes these things that are supposed to be living
Speaker 3: a long time to not live a long time. And
Speaker 3: so these case selected organisms are their strategy is live
Speaker 3: a long time, produce a lot of young over a
Speaker 3: long period of time, not just you know, put all
Speaker 3: of your eggs in one basket. Right at the beginning.
Speaker 3: When we have mosquitoes and things like that, there are
Speaker 3: selected They don't live a long time, but they have
Speaker 3: a lot of young in that amount of time, and
Speaker 3: that's fine, whatever strategy works until you start cutting down
Speaker 3: sequoias before they get to live their full life and
Speaker 3: reproduce as much as they should have if they live
Speaker 3: their full life. Same thing for sharks. It takes sharks
Speaker 3: a really long time to mature. So you think about people,
Speaker 3: we're also long lived, don't reproduce very much. If we
Speaker 3: all died before we hit twenty years old, think about
Speaker 3: how many of us wouldn't have had children. Think about
Speaker 3: what that does to the population we're supposed to live.
Speaker 3: You know, roughly seventy eighty ninety. Some people live to
Speaker 3: be over one hundred years old, and you have time
Speaker 3: to have multiple children. Not if you die at twenty
Speaker 3: that's you don't have that opportunity, and so you can't
Speaker 3: replace yourself. And so that's what's happening with sharks is
Speaker 3: their strategy worked for a really long time until we
Speaker 3: had these other things come about there now killing them
Speaker 3: and they're not living their full life expectancy like they
Speaker 3: should have, and so that's affecting everything. It's affecting how
Speaker 3: many young are in the next generation. It's affecting the
Speaker 3: health of those young because we also have things like
Speaker 3: maternal offloading, which is where a mother shark has so
Speaker 3: much toxins, think mercury, think all of those things in
Speaker 3: her body that it starts being detrimental to her. And
Speaker 3: the strategy for a case selected individual is I'm going
Speaker 3: to get rid of these toxins and my next litter
Speaker 3: of pups, I'm just going to dump it all into
Speaker 3: them and they might not survive, but I will keep
Speaker 3: living and I will have more pups. So I will
Speaker 3: make the sacrifice of these pups so that I can
Speaker 3: keep living and continue to have pups, which is a
Speaker 3: great strategy, except for if you then are always accumulating mercury,
Speaker 3: and now all of your pups are not healthy and
Speaker 3: you're continuing to live and reproduce, but the pups that
Speaker 3: you're reproducing aren't as viable because they have all these
Speaker 3: toxins in them. And so those are sort of things
Speaker 3: that you don't start to think about until you kind
Speaker 3: of dive deep into theology and how sharks work. And
Speaker 3: that's sort of what I like to talk about in
Speaker 3: the book so that people can understand, Hey, conservation of
Speaker 3: the oceans involves conserving sharks.
Speaker 1: What do you think are some of the most I
Speaker 1: guess winnable problems with shark conservation right now. What are
Speaker 1: the areas where that are the most easily addressable that
Speaker 1: maybe we're not addressing yet.
Speaker 3: So fishing is a big problem. We have overfishing, which
Speaker 3: is where they're taking more out of the population than
Speaker 3: can replace themselves. But then we also have by catch
Speaker 3: and by catches where they're not actually targeting sharks. Sharks
Speaker 3: are not the goal, sharks are accidentally being caught. And
Speaker 3: so that I feel like is something that's we can address.
Speaker 3: Is it's not a matter of how do we feed
Speaker 3: these people, how do we make sure that these people
Speaker 3: have their economies stabilize. They don't actually want these sharks.
Speaker 3: They don't want the sharks. We don't want them to
Speaker 3: catch the sharks. This is a perfect way for us
Speaker 3: to come together and think how do we keep sharks
Speaker 3: out of your gear? And so that's a lot of
Speaker 3: what I start thinking about is by catch reduction, how
Speaker 3: do we keep these species that people don't want. They
Speaker 3: don't want to eat them, they don't need them for anything.
Speaker 3: That's a huge problem where they're dying for no reason
Speaker 3: at all. We're not even using them and so that's
Speaker 3: one area. Another area with the overfishing is a bit
Speaker 3: more complicated but still doable, is how do we cut
Speaker 3: down on the amount of products that we need. So
Speaker 3: we think about squalling squalling, and it's the oil in
Speaker 3: sharks livers. A lot of it's used in cosmetics and
Speaker 3: lotions and things like that. Whilst scientists have figured out
Speaker 3: a way to manufacture synthetic squaling, so we replace all
Speaker 3: of the squaling that's coming from sharks with synthetic we've
Speaker 3: already cut out a good number of sharks deaths and
Speaker 3: so little things like that, simple switches that we can
Speaker 3: make in order to cut down on the amount of
Speaker 3: products that we use. I think people tend to focus
Speaker 3: on other people as a means to change. So we
Speaker 3: think about shark fin soup. That's what a lot of
Speaker 3: people like to focus on, is well, we need to
Speaker 3: stop the Asian people from eating shark fin soup. This
Speaker 3: is not an Asia problem. This is an everyone problem.
Speaker 3: And it's really easy for you to point at somebody
Speaker 3: else and say, well, it's their fault. We need to
Speaker 3: start thinking about what can I do, what can we
Speaker 3: do here to make changes. It's not about pointing fingers
Speaker 3: at people, and I think it's a very slippery slope.
Speaker 3: It's really easy to fall into racism and xenophobia and
Speaker 3: be like, these people that are not like me are
Speaker 3: the problem. Fishermen are the problem, Asian people are the problem,
Speaker 3: Indigenous people are the problem. It's never I'm the problem.
Speaker 3: We have to start thinking about how we are contributing
Speaker 3: to the problem, because we all are, and we can't
Speaker 3: just go pointing fingers at people, especially because the people
Speaker 3: that tend to have the fingers pointed at them are
Speaker 3: marginalized communities who don't have a seat at the conservation
Speaker 3: table when these discussions are going on. It's really easy
Speaker 3: to blame someone when they're not there to defend themselves,
Speaker 3: and so I always like to tell people just be
Speaker 3: mindful of that when you're starting to think about conservation,
Speaker 3: start with yourself first before you start pointing fingers at
Speaker 3: other people.
Speaker 1: Now in the book, you bring up the topic of
Speaker 1: beach renourishment. Is this something that threatens sharks in the wild.
Speaker 3: Beach renourishment is something that's really interesting because as we
Speaker 3: have people living on coastlines, we have we have kind
Speaker 3: of two I guess groups of people living on coastlines.
Speaker 3: We have people who are living on the coastlines because
Speaker 3: they don't have anywhere else to go. And we have
Speaker 3: people that are living on coastlines because they want beachfront
Speaker 3: property and they want to look at the ocean. And
Speaker 3: so these are two groups of people that are often
Speaker 3: in conflict with each other because there's the people that
Speaker 3: have the beachfront property, have money and power, and the
Speaker 3: people who do not and are there because that's where
Speaker 3: they've been pushed. Thinking about indigenous communities in Louisiana, a
Speaker 3: lot of indigen and as communities got pushed to Louisiana
Speaker 3: in those parishes that are coastal that are now going underwater,
Speaker 3: and that is not where they intended to be, that
Speaker 3: is not where their native lands are, that is where
Speaker 3: they were pushed. And then we have people you know
Speaker 3: that want to come and live in Miami and you know,
Speaker 3: have their beaches and stuff. And so we have to
Speaker 3: think about this from like two perspectives, because there are
Speaker 3: renourishment things where we're trying to keep land available for
Speaker 3: people who have nowhere else to go. And that's that's
Speaker 3: one issue, and there are lots of ways that we
Speaker 3: can think about how do we keep people where they are,
Speaker 3: how do we help them decide where they want to
Speaker 3: go and give them a place to go if that's
Speaker 3: what they choose to do. Then we have this other
Speaker 3: group of people who are like, I want white fluffy
Speaker 3: sand in a beach. That is a different situation, and
Speaker 3: that's what I'm talking about, Just to clarify, that's what
Speaker 3: I'm talking about when I talk about renourishment projects being
Speaker 3: a problem renourishing a beach because you want your nice beach.
Speaker 3: You're a hotel and your private beach is disappearing. That's
Speaker 3: do we need to do that? I don't know. That's
Speaker 3: that's debatable. And so we have this issue where we
Speaker 3: put this fake sand or not fake sand, but sam
Speaker 3: that's not supposed to be there in an area where
Speaker 3: the ocean wants to move it, like mother nature has
Speaker 3: decided this be this beach ink won't be here no more.
Speaker 3: And when mother nature decides something, it's really hard to
Speaker 3: counteract that. And you have a really good reason for
Speaker 3: doing that because it's going to be really expensive and
Speaker 3: it's probably not gonna work, or it will work, and
Speaker 3: it won't last very long. And so what we have
Speaker 3: like in Myrtle Beach where my family is from. Is
Speaker 3: we have these hotels and these owners of beachfront property saying, well,
Speaker 3: my beach disappearing, and that's a natural process, but we're
Speaker 3: trying to stop it for economic reasons. And we put
Speaker 3: the sand here, and then a hurricane comes, like Hurricane
Speaker 3: Ian came and they had just done a beachy nourishment project.
Speaker 3: Guess we're all of that sand that they spent millions
Speaker 3: of dollars putting on that peachment. Whoop, the mother nature
Speaker 3: took it away mine. Nope, not supposed to be here.
Speaker 3: But where does that sand go? It gets dumped off shore,
Speaker 3: It covers up reefs, it covers up sea grass beds,
Speaker 3: it covers up all of these habitats where fish are living,
Speaker 3: and all of this sand, just this whole beach just
Speaker 3: shifted into the water. And that's where we have an issue.
Speaker 3: Is the ocean giveth and the ocean taketh away. Like
Speaker 3: you can put all the sand there you want to.
Speaker 3: If the ocean does not want that sand to be there,
Speaker 3: it is not going to stay there and it's got
Speaker 3: to go somewhere. And that somewhere is often covering important habitats.
Speaker 3: We have fishermen that I've talked to that say, immediately
Speaker 3: after a storm, after a renewerished area gets swept away,
Speaker 3: they can't catch fish. And that's just terrible because that
Speaker 3: means all of these where did all these fish go,
Speaker 3: all of these fishermen that are relying on this, all
Speaker 3: of these communities relying on this for food, It's gone.
Speaker 3: They can't access it until the sand starts moving further
Speaker 3: and further offshore, which who knows how that's how long
Speaker 3: that's gonna take. And so these are things we have
Speaker 3: to take into consideration. We make these decisions as humans
Speaker 3: because we are part of the environment. The environment is
Speaker 3: part of us. Every decision we make has an equal
Speaker 3: and opposite reaction. So we need to be making decisions
Speaker 3: based on necessity, not on I want my beach to
Speaker 3: look at ice.
Speaker 1: Now, coming back to just sort of the like that
Speaker 1: the character of Sharks, the being in the water with sharks.
Speaker 1: You know, the book is coming out in the summer,
Speaker 1: this episode is publishing in the summer. A lot of
Speaker 1: people are getting in the water. Sometimes people are getting
Speaker 1: in the water, maybe in the vicinity of sharks for
Speaker 1: the first time, or for the first time in a while.
Speaker 1: Do you think there are key things that like the
Speaker 1: average person getting in the water with the sharks might
Speaker 1: need to learn about them or unlearn about them.
Speaker 3: Like what.
Speaker 1: Do folks often just maybe not seem to understand or
Speaker 1: need to understand a little better before they get in
Speaker 1: there with them.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just a lot of fear surrounding the ocean
Speaker 3: and sharks in particular. And I mean there are tons
Speaker 3: of people that will not get in the ocean because
Speaker 3: they are that afraid of sharks. And I mean I
Speaker 3: can give numbers and figures and statistics, and maybe that
Speaker 3: affects people, maybe it doesn't. You have this fear that's
Speaker 3: been built by years of watching these shark movies and
Speaker 3: hearing these news stories and all of the sensationalized things,
Speaker 3: and that's something that takes time to get over. And
Speaker 3: I think some of the best ways to overcome that
Speaker 3: is to do it. You just expose your therapy, get
Speaker 3: in the water, see that you're fine, and then you're like, Okay,
Speaker 3: that wasn't so bad. I'll go a little deeper next time.
Speaker 3: I'll go a little deeper next time. And once you
Speaker 3: get in the ocean, you discover all of these amazing
Speaker 3: things the ocean has to offer. Once you start snorkeling
Speaker 3: and looking underneath the water and seeing all of these
Speaker 3: fish that are swimming around you and all of that stuff,
Speaker 3: hopefully the fascination with the ocean will start to outweigh
Speaker 3: that fear. And I like to kind of remind people
Speaker 3: we say things, and our language affects people's perceptions and so,
Speaker 3: you know, media all of that, just be mindful of
Speaker 3: the way that we portray sharks. So saying things like
Speaker 3: shark infested waters, the waters are not shark infested. That's
Speaker 3: where they live. It's if anything, they're people infested because
Speaker 3: we're the ones that aren't supposed to be there. You
Speaker 3: wouldn't say that the sky is bird infested, like they
Speaker 3: live there. That's where they are. And you know, the
Speaker 3: pictures that we choose to use when we have a story,
Speaker 3: I mean, someone will get nibbled by like a little
Speaker 3: tiny leopard shark and they'll be like shark attack off
Speaker 3: La Hooia Shores. It'll be like a great white shark. No,
Speaker 3: it was like the little tiny, two foot little leopard
Speaker 3: shark and the person needed a band aid. We don't
Speaker 3: need like this whole like thing. And yes, there are
Speaker 3: people who have bites. They have negative encounters with sharks,
Speaker 3: it does happen. But we have negative encounters with all
Speaker 3: sorts of wild animals. They are animals. We have negative
Speaker 3: encounters with each other, we you know. So it's a
Speaker 3: fact of life that if things are in proximity to
Speaker 3: each other, eventually there will be a negative encounter. And
Speaker 3: it's something that I hope that with the love of
Speaker 3: the ocean and this increased desire to be in the ocean,
Speaker 3: similar to how we still get in cars even though
Speaker 3: we know that we could get in an accident. That's
Speaker 3: because our necessity, our a desire to get from one
Speaker 3: place to another quickly and not have to walk outweighs
Speaker 3: our fear of getting in an accident. And that's sort
Speaker 3: of where we're going with kind of exposing people to
Speaker 3: how cool the ocean is, how exciting it is, and
Speaker 3: then that fear is kind of downplayed a little bit.
Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that there's like a zero percent
Speaker 3: chance that you're gonna get bit by a shark. What
Speaker 3: I am saying is, wouldn't you rather experience this amazing
Speaker 3: thing rather than be cut off from it because you're
Speaker 3: afraid of this thing that's really not gonna happen happening.
Speaker 3: And I also like to remind people like I work
Speaker 3: with sharks for a living. I'm like around them all
Speaker 3: the time. I've touched them all the time, doing things
Speaker 3: that they don't exactly want. Like you don't like for
Speaker 3: your dentists to be in your mouth, you don't like
Speaker 3: for your nurse to draw your blood. You don't like
Speaker 3: these things. They're like good for you, and like the
Speaker 3: sharks don't understand that sharks can't think like people and
Speaker 3: be like, oh, this person's trying to help me. Look
Speaker 3: they're removing a parasite. How nice of them. They're like, ah,
Speaker 3: why are you touching me? Ah? And so I haven't
Speaker 3: had any issues with sharks. If I haven't, and I
Speaker 3: have like way higher probability than the average person. So
Speaker 3: you're fine, Like you just walking in the water up
Speaker 3: to your waist. It's like, you're fine.
Speaker 1: So if chips are down. What's your favorite shark species?
Speaker 3: My favorite shark species is the bonnet head shark because
Speaker 3: they're adorable. It's also the first shark that I got
Speaker 3: to work with, and they were the first shark to
Speaker 3: be discovered to be omnivorous, so they eat plants and animals.
Speaker 3: Seagrass makes forty to sixty percent of their diet actually,
Speaker 3: which is pretty wild that this little shark is eating
Speaker 3: potentially more plants than they are eating animals and getting
Speaker 3: more nutrition from plants. And so, I mean that just
Speaker 3: goes back to how cool sharks are. We have this
Speaker 3: one dimensional view of sharks because you hear the word
Speaker 3: shark and you think great white jaws, mindless killing machine.
Speaker 3: But there's so much diversity that actually white sharks are
Speaker 3: the exception and not the rule. Most sharks are small.
Speaker 3: Most sharks are less than four feet long. A lot
Speaker 3: of sharks live in the deep sea. Some of them
Speaker 3: grow glow in the dark. Some of them have hammers
Speaker 3: for heads, Some of them eat plants, some of them
Speaker 3: are pretty colors, some of them are filter feeders. It's
Speaker 3: just there's so much variety, and we're really doing sharks
Speaker 3: at disservice by only thinking of them in this one way.
Speaker 3: That would be like us thinking that all humans are
Speaker 3: I don't know, six', five or LIKE i don't Know
Speaker 3: yao ming or something like, That like where they're not,
Speaker 3: like we're not all like. That we had a lot of.
Speaker 3: Varieties some of us have different hair, colors we're different,
Speaker 3: shades we're different, sizes we have different. Interests and it
Speaker 3: would be doing humans disservice to narrow us down to
Speaker 3: like one type of. Person so we shouldn't do that to.
Speaker 1: Sharks now that you pointed out, it it does feel
Speaker 1: like even in like science, reporting a lot of, times
Speaker 1: like the shark diversity stories that kind of end up
Speaker 1: poking their head up or ones about like looking. Teeth you,
Speaker 1: know it'll be, like, oh look at the goblin. Shark
Speaker 1: it's it's stary, looking you, know and and maybe less
Speaker 1: so On, well here's here's a shark that. Eats it is.
Speaker 1: Omnivorous so that's a great. Point, now in terms of your,
Speaker 1: research what shark or ray species are you working with
Speaker 1: the most right?
Speaker 3: Now right? Now my work is mostly on understanding the
Speaker 3: effects of a harmful alcol bloom Called florida redtide on,
Speaker 3: sharks and So i'm doing that work here In Sarasota
Speaker 3: bay And Tampa, bay and so a lot of the
Speaker 3: sharks That i'm working with are black, tips black. NOSES
Speaker 3: i still am working with bonnet heads a little, bit
Speaker 3: although not as. Much and then we have scalloped hammerheads
Speaker 3: and great hammer heads as, well and so those are
Speaker 3: the main species That i'm interested in working with right.
Speaker 3: NOW i still am a part of the sawfish re.
Speaker 3: Church right, now sawfish are experiencing a unprecedented die off
Speaker 3: in the in The South florida area where they're exhibiting
Speaker 3: this weird spinning behavior and washing up. Dead we've lost
Speaker 3: quite a number of, them especially considering how small the
Speaker 3: population is, already because they're critically, endangered so there's not
Speaker 3: a lot of, them and so that's been a big,
Speaker 3: concern and So i've been kind of just helping where i,
Speaker 3: can giving my expertise WHERE i, can SINCE i have
Speaker 3: worked with them for a number of. Years because it's
Speaker 3: all hands on deck right. Now no one knows why
Speaker 3: this is, happening how to stop, it what's going, on
Speaker 3: and so we're all just kind of lending support where we.
Speaker 3: Can so that's sort of an ongoing side project of,
Speaker 3: mine built more out of, necessity where we're trying to
Speaker 3: deal with this unprecedented event now.
Speaker 1: In the shark science is obviously they're going to be
Speaker 1: species that are hard to get to or rare in,
Speaker 1: number but in, general are there are there any shark
Speaker 1: species that are considered like, understudied not so much because
Speaker 1: of their, remoteness just because like we just don't, know
Speaker 1: don't pay as much attention to. Them are there any
Speaker 1: stories like that in the shark.
Speaker 3: SCIENCES i feel like there are tons of understudied species
Speaker 3: and you ask a different scientist and they will give
Speaker 3: you a different, answer like THE i, mean there's so
Speaker 3: many species of. Sharks there's about five hundred species of,
Speaker 3: sharks so we're not studying all of. Them some of
Speaker 3: them are in the deep, sea we can't get to,
Speaker 3: them some of them are in areas where there's not
Speaker 3: a lot of. Support, so AS i, mentioned there are
Speaker 3: scientists in countries in the Global south that are doing,
Speaker 3: work and that work is, happening but it's not making
Speaker 3: it into the mainstream publication system because of these biases that.
Speaker 3: Exist so we have that issue where there are shark
Speaker 3: species that are studied by, someone but we don't get
Speaker 3: to hear about it that much because their work is
Speaker 3: being suppressed or. Undervalued and so that's one. Thing and
Speaker 3: then there's also some species that just aren't as. Glamorous
Speaker 3: like there are some species where people are, like, ah,
Speaker 3: yes whale, SHARKS i will give money to fund whale shark.
Speaker 3: Research if you're, LIKE i want to STUDY i don't,
Speaker 3: know the shy shark or something, random people are, like,
Speaker 3: okay you, know there's not as much flashy. Money people
Speaker 3: want to spend money on things that are cool and
Speaker 3: glamorous and they're like really excited. About people aren't really
Speaker 3: like investing as much money in sharks that are like
Speaker 3: just like super. Cash so there's definitely like a not
Speaker 3: equitable distribution of, funding and so that also drives what
Speaker 3: people choose to, study because if they can't get funding
Speaker 3: to study that, animal then they have to go and
Speaker 3: try to study something. Else and so there are some
Speaker 3: of the less charismatic i'd say shark species that are
Speaker 3: not being studied as. Much BUT i mean there's also
Speaker 3: like tons of people that are working with sharks, that
Speaker 3: LIKE i, said aren't making, headlines they're not making it
Speaker 3: into the. Mainstream and so that's part of WHAT miss
Speaker 3: is trying to do is amplify the work that's being
Speaker 3: done on some of those lesser known researchers and areas
Speaker 3: where people are doing.
Speaker 1: Work in the, book you write so passionately about what
Speaker 1: attracted you to marine biology and the, ocean as well
Speaker 1: as the challenges you've. Faced what advice do you have
Speaker 1: for any young people out there who maybe feel the
Speaker 1: same attraction to the ocean into marine biology and are
Speaker 1: considering a career in SOMEIDE i.
Speaker 3: Would, say if you're considering a career in, science you
Speaker 3: should one hundred percent go for it and don't let
Speaker 3: anyone tell you that you can't do, that and don't
Speaker 3: doubt that you. Can a lot of people, think you,
Speaker 3: know WHENEVER i, say, Oh i'm a, scientist people's first,
Speaker 3: reaction like nine times out of ten, is, oh, wow
Speaker 3: you must be really. Smart and that's because we have
Speaker 3: this perception that scientists are smarter than other. People And
Speaker 3: i'm gonna let you in on a. Secret we are
Speaker 3: not any smarter other. People that is not, true because
Speaker 3: what does smart even? MEAN i don't, Know LIKE i
Speaker 3: think there's a there's a famous quote AND i can't
Speaker 3: remember who said, it but it was And i'll. Paraphrase
Speaker 3: everyone is. Intelligent but if you judge a fish by
Speaker 3: its ability to climb a, tree it will live its
Speaker 3: whole life believing it is. Stupid and you, know we're
Speaker 3: not any smarter than anyone. Else and so if you're, like,
Speaker 3: OH i want to do, science BUT i don't Think
Speaker 3: i'm smart, enough throw that, out because let me tell,
Speaker 3: you there are some not why scientists out, there and
Speaker 3: some of them are like really high up, there big,
Speaker 3: shots and they're they do some things that are. Illogical
Speaker 3: so just because someone is a scientist doesn't mean they're,
Speaker 3: smart and so you shouldn't think, LIKE i don't Think
Speaker 3: i'm smart enough to be a. Scientist that's a. Myth
Speaker 3: scientists aren't any smarter than other. PEOPLE i, say as a,
Speaker 3: SCIENTIST i can tell you right NOW i am not
Speaker 3: smarter than anyone. Else and then people have this this
Speaker 3: fear of, well If i've become a, SCIENTIST i gotta do,
Speaker 3: math and math is. Scary AND i struggled with math
Speaker 3: a lot WHEN i was in. School it was like
Speaker 3: my hardest subject AND i actually had to get through
Speaker 3: some of my math. CLASSES i basically was in my teachers'
Speaker 3: class after school every, day getting tutoring to make it.
Speaker 3: Through and so, like you don't have to be good
Speaker 3: at everything to be a. Scientist all sciences is asking
Speaker 3: questions and trying to figure out the. Answer that's all it.
Speaker 3: Is people put all this flare and handwaving and, whatever
Speaker 3: and that's all it, is asking, questions trying to figure
Speaker 3: out the. Answers you can do that now and wherever you,
Speaker 3: are whoever you, are you can ask questions and try
Speaker 3: and figure out the. Answers you can do. Science that's all.
Speaker 3: Sciences everything else is just. Flair doesn't matter what alphabet
Speaker 3: is after your, name doesn't, matter if you have a,
Speaker 3: degree doesn't, matter if you even know how to, read
Speaker 3: you can do. Science i've seen, children toddlers do science
Speaker 3: where they see ants walking and go where are those ants?
Speaker 3: Going AND i, SAY i don't, know why don't you
Speaker 3: follow them and find? Out and they will follow the
Speaker 3: ants and figure out where they're. Going guess, what that's.
Speaker 3: Science they just did. Science can't spell their own, name
Speaker 3: but they did. Science and so that's all it. Is
Speaker 3: so don't be intimidated by. It don't think that you
Speaker 3: have to be somebody special to do. It we're not.
Speaker 3: Special we're just like anyone else people that do. Science
Speaker 3: and if there's a scientist that thinks that they're, special
Speaker 3: they're just a little too over confident in. Themselves they
Speaker 3: are not any more special than anyone. Else so anyone
Speaker 3: can do. Science don't let anyone tell you that you.
Speaker 1: Can't all, right, well this has been. Delightful before we
Speaker 1: close out, here remind everybody again that the book is
Speaker 1: out now in, digital, physical and. Audiobook, right did you
Speaker 1: read for the? Audiobook? CORRECT i?
Speaker 3: DID i did read for the.
Speaker 1: Audiobook, Awesome so it's out in all. Formats and then
Speaker 1: as far as minorities And Sharks science, goes where can
Speaker 1: people go to learn more ABOUT, miss to get involved
Speaker 1: WITH miss or donate TO.
Speaker 3: Miss, Yes so we have a. Website IT'S Miss elasmo
Speaker 3: dot org M i s S e L a s
Speaker 3: M o dot. Org elasmo short for, alasmobrank which is,
Speaker 3: sharks skates and. Rays so if you were wondering what that, was.
Speaker 3: Elasmo and we're also On, Twitter, Instagram, facebook, YouTube TikTok and,
Speaker 3: LinkedIn uh so you can look us up. There.
Speaker 1: Awesome, well thanks for taking time out of your day
Speaker 1: to chat with me here.
Speaker 3: Today thanks thanks for having. Me thanks.
Speaker 1: Thanks once more To Jasmine graham for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: Again you can pick up that book right. Now sharks don't.
Speaker 1: Sync you can find it wherever you get your, books
Speaker 1: and it's available now in all four. Minutes thanks as
Speaker 1: always to the Excellent jjpossway for producing this show and
Speaker 1: if you would like to get in touch with this
Speaker 1: if you have suggestions for future episodes Of stuff To
Speaker 1: Blow Your, mind comments on past, episodes or just any
Speaker 1: other comments you want to share with, us, well you
Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff To blow Your
Speaker 1: mind dot.
Speaker 2: Com stuff To Blow Your mind is production Of. iHeartRadio
Speaker 2: for more podcasts from my Heart, radio visit The iHeartRadio,
Speaker 2: App Apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite.
Speaker 2: Shows