1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. We're out this week, so we 3 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: have a vault episode for you. This is going to 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: be Sharks Don't Sink with Jasmine Graham. This was an 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: interview episode that originally published seven sixteen, twenty twenty four. 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: It's a fun chat. Let's jump right in. 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb, and this episode of Stuff to 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind, we're going to be chatting with Jasmine Graham, 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: a shark scientist and author of Sharks Don't Sink. This 12 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: is a great book and it is out right now 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 1: in all formats. So I encourage you if this interview 14 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 1: grabs you, if the subject matter grabs you, especially if 15 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: you're interested in sharks. This is only some great summer 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: reading for you, so pick up a copy, especially if 17 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: you are going to go out to the beach or 18 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: in any way experience the ocean this year. So without 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:15,679 Speaker 1: further ado, let's dive right in. Hi, Jasmine, welcome to 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: the show. 21 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: The new book Sharks Don't Sink Adventures of a Rogue 23 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: Sharks Scientist is out now in digital, physical, and audio formats. 24 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it. It's a science book about sharks, 25 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: but it's also a social advocacy book and a personal memoir. 26 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you. I'm going to ask 27 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 1: you about all of these aspects, but I guess the 28 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: best place to start is the simple question, how'd you 29 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: become interested in shark biology? 30 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,280 Speaker 3: I was always very interested in the ocean, and I 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 3: grew up fishing with my dad and come from a 32 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 3: fishing family, and so the ocean is always part of me. 33 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 3: I didn't really think much about sharks. I wasn't one 34 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 3: of those people that was afraid of them. I wasn't 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: super obsessed with them as a kid. They were kind 36 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 3: of just animals that existed. But whenever I was in 37 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: college working on my marine biology degree, I met a 38 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 3: professor who studied sharks, and I started talking with him 39 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 3: and doing some research with him, and they kind of 40 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,240 Speaker 3: fell in love with sharks. I did a lot of 41 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 3: different marine science research while I was an undergrad, but 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: I just kept coming back to sharks because I just 43 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 3: think they're so cool. They've been here so long, they 44 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 3: have such neat adaptations, and I've always been someone that 45 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: roots for the underdog, and they're very misunderstood, so I've 46 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:36,679 Speaker 3: always enjoyed working with them. 47 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: Now, in the book, you discussed the challenges and limitations 48 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: of the academic world. I think a lot of us 49 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: outside of academia only have like a surface level understanding 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: of things like publish or perish, and so I might 51 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: ask you to discuss that a little bit for everyone. 52 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: But also, you know, I think it's easy for us 53 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: outsiders to think about science and research as being well, okay, 54 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: this is like a your logical thing, and we let 55 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,359 Speaker 1: ourselves forget that we have all these issues of politics 56 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: and discrimination very much in play in that world as well. 57 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 1: What are the challenges facing up and coming research scientists 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: and scientists of color in particular. 59 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting that you point out this perception that 60 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 3: science is objective and without bias, and that's how science 61 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 3: should be in its purest form. But obviously science is 62 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 3: conducted by human beings, and human beings all have biases, 63 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 3: we have flaws, we're illogical sometimes, and so I think 64 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 3: it's really hard for people in the science field, not 65 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 3: just people outside of the science field, but even people 66 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 3: in the science field to come to terms with that 67 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: that this area of research that we do, you know, 68 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 3: we do the scientific method and all of that, and 69 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 3: we like to think of ourselves as being objective. It's 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 3: really hard for us to admit that our biases come 71 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 3: into play in our scientific research. But that's something that 72 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 3: we have to deal with because we've seen science be 73 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: used for some really terrible things. We've seen science be 74 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: used as an excuse for genocide, We've seen science create 75 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 3: atomic bombs, We've seen science do all sorts of really 76 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 3: not great things, and so we have to recognize that 77 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: we have this responsibility as scientists to try to be objective, 78 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 3: but recognize that we are not entirely objective, and so 79 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 3: we have to be critical of how we think, how 80 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: we interact with each other, and all of those things. 81 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 3: Everything to who gets to present to a scientific conference, 82 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: or who gets to work in somebody's lab, or who's 83 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 3: invited to speak at this university, all of that has 84 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 3: bias associated with it, and so we have to work 85 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 3: really hard to be responsive to that. What that looks 86 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 3: like in terms of scientists from marginalized communities, it often 87 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 3: looks like not getting as much mentorship opportunities. It looks 88 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: like not being in the club. You know, there's like 89 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 3: a there's a clear these are the cool people in science, 90 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 3: and we all hang out together and we all talk, 91 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 3: and then there's outside ring of people trying to get 92 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 3: into the cool club, into the inner circle, as it will. 93 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: And so those in the inner circle have to be 94 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 3: really mindful of those who are outside the circle trying 95 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 3: to get in and making sure that they're accessible pathways 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 3: to that. Because science and academia the way that it's 97 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: set up, has a lot of potential for gatekeepers to 98 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 3: solely decide who gets accepted into a PhD program, who 99 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 3: gets published. We have this idea of peer review, which 100 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 3: is really great if you assume that your peers are 101 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 3: objective and going to be fair and just. And yes, 102 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 3: there are a lot of people that give fair reviews, 103 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 3: but there's a lot of people whose reviews are biased. 104 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 3: They see somebody's name and they say, I don't know 105 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 3: that I trust that person just based off of their name. 106 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: If it's a name that sounds feminine, if it's a 107 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 3: name that sounds quote unquote foreign. You know, I've had 108 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 3: people that are in different countries trying to publish work, 109 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 3: and they complain a lot of times that they get 110 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 3: really unfair peer reviews that basically imply that because they 111 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 3: are from a country in the global South, their science 112 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 3: isn't as credible as somebody from Europe or North America, 113 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 3: and so that's something that we struggle with. So those 114 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: are just a few examples, but there's lots of areas 115 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: where biased can creep in, and because we like to 116 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 3: think of ourselves as objective, sometimes we choose to ignore 117 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: those things and kind of stick our head in the sand. 118 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 3: But we have to really confront it in order to 119 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 3: make sure that science is actually objective and equitable. 120 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: And us thank you for walking us through that. Could 121 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about Minorities in Shark Sciences 122 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: or miss how this came together, what sort of work 123 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: it's doing, and where you'd like it to go in 124 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: the future. 125 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 3: Minorities in Shark Sciences is four years old. So we 126 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 3: were founded in June of twenty twenty. We actually met 127 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 3: each other on Twitter, me and the other three co founders, 128 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 3: and we really wanted to create a sense of community. 129 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 3: That's what it started out as. We want to create 130 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 3: a sense of community where people feel like they belong 131 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 3: in science, where people are able to build their science 132 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 3: identity in a place where they feel that the rest 133 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 3: of their identity can come along and they don't have 134 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: to leave it at the door in order to be accepted. 135 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: And so that's sort of where minorities and shark sciences 136 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 3: came from. Since then, it's grown to be so much 137 00:07:55,440 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: more than just community. It's grown to be this sort 138 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: of wave of change in marine science and shark science 139 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 3: in particular, where we were astounded at how many people 140 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 3: you did an open call of who is trying to 141 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: get into shark research or marine science and feels like 142 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: they are the first or the only person like them 143 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: in the room, come and join us, and five hundred 144 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 3: people responded. That's a lot of people. And so having 145 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: this movement build of Okay, now we have a responsibility 146 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 3: to all of these people who are sharing their stories, 147 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 3: who are pointing out these issues, who want support in 148 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 3: their universities, in their academic institutions, in their organizations to 149 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 3: bring these issues to the forefront, because what we found 150 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: is that a lot of people have been experiencing these 151 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: things and have been trying to draw attention to them individually, 152 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 3: and it's a lot of oh, I think you're imagining 153 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 3: that they maybe don't mean that, you know, all of 154 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 3: these sort of but but but but butt and so 155 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: that could be really frustrating to have people not believe 156 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:14,319 Speaker 3: you whenever you're trying to address something. But you can 157 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: ignore one person, you can maybe ignore two people, ignoring 158 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 3: five hundred people saying the same thing. That's really hard 159 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 3: to do. You got to stick your head pretty far 160 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: in that sand. And so that's sort of what this 161 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 3: movement has become is giving voice to people who haven't 162 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 3: been able to have their voices amplified before. Doing cutting 163 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: edge research and making sure to elevate people who are 164 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 3: doing research that maybe wasn't being respected before and being 165 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: able to amplify that work and bring attention to it 166 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 3: with this collective power that Myths Is an organization has built, 167 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 3: and then also getting to bring more people into the fold, 168 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 3: making sure that more people get into that inner circle, 169 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 3: providing the mentorship experiences. So we do mentorship experiences, we 170 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 3: do professional development workshops, We help people build skills, all 171 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 3: of these sorts of skills that you don't learn in school, 172 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,719 Speaker 3: but people expect you to magically know how to do 173 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: and then also getting internships and fellowships and things like that, 174 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 3: while eliminating the financial barrier associated with that, because that's 175 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 3: been a huge problem in the past. Is this pay 176 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 3: to play where you have to pay someone to go 177 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 3: work for them, which exists in marine science and is 178 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: super common. But if you went to pretty much any 179 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 3: other field of career, if you say, wanted to go 180 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 3: intern at Google, it would be absurd for you to 181 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 3: pay to intern at Google. Google would pay you to 182 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 3: intern at Google. But in marine science, for reasons, lots 183 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 3: of reasons, it's flipped where the expectation is you're going 184 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,439 Speaker 3: to pay for this, and so that makes it really 185 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 3: hard for people to access those experiences. But they need 186 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: those experiences to get the job, to get in that 187 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 3: inner circle, to meet those people, and so MISS is 188 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: all about eliminating those barriers introducing young people to marine 189 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 3: science and the ocean early on. We serve what we 190 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: call Kada gray, So we're really interested in bringing everyone 191 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: in and making everyone feel connected, whether that means they 192 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 3: want to be a scientist or they want to just 193 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: advocate in their everyday lives. We want to make sure 194 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: that people have access to the information about what's going 195 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 3: on in our ocean ecosystems because it affects all of us. 196 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: That's awesome. Now, getting I guess more into sharks again. 197 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: You spend a great deal of the book discussing the 198 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: elegance of sharks, you know, from broad strokes about their 199 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 1: appearance and evolution, to biological specifics and species level details. 200 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: You know, I'm not going to ask you to go 201 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: through all of that here. I encourage listeners to go 202 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: check out the book, But in brief, why are sharks 203 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: such an evolutionary success story? Why have they done so 204 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: well and why have they changed so little? 205 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: That's a great question and something that we as evolutionary 206 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 3: biologists are really interested in, and we don't have all 207 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 3: the answers. But something that's really unique about sharks is 208 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: that they've been around on this planet a really long time. 209 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 3: And when I say a really long time, I mean 210 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 3: before the dinosaurs, before we had trees, before Saturn had 211 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: its rings. This we're talking four hundred million years of time, 212 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: which I think is really hard for us to grasp 213 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: as human beings who have been on this planet for 214 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 3: a blink of an eye. But they've been here and 215 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: pretty much not changing that much. The same basic body plan, 216 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 3: same basic in the time that dinosaurs became chickens. Because 217 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 3: closest relative to dinosaurs a chicken, it's pretty wild to 218 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 3: think that sharks kind of looked the same and we 219 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 3: went from a dinosaur to a chicken and that same 220 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: amount of time, and so it's it's really cool, but 221 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 3: it's also something that makes it really alarming when we 222 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,560 Speaker 3: think about losing them at the rate that we're losing them. 223 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 3: So they've survived every mass extinction event thus far, supervolcanoes, 224 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 3: meteor showers, you know, all of these ice ages, all 225 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 3: of these things that other organisms didn't survive, they survived. 226 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 3: But we're in the sixth mass extinction that's driven by people, 227 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 3: and they're dying an alarming rate, which we should all 228 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 3: be concerned about because we don't know what the world 229 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 3: looks like without sharks. Sharks have been here so long 230 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 3: that we don't even know what happens to an ecosystem 231 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 3: when they're not there. We have no idea what the 232 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 3: consequences of that are. And it's also really upsetting to 233 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 3: think that we as a species are more damaging to 234 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:54,960 Speaker 3: the marine environment than supervolcanoes and meteor showers. That's pretty bad, 235 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 3: and we need to start thinking about how we live sustainably. 236 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 3: How do we coexist with all of these creatures that 237 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 3: are here inhabiting the planet right now, because we just 238 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 3: got here and we might not last very long if 239 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: we keep going the way that we're going. And so 240 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 3: that's something that I think is really important to think about. 241 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 3: And sharks have all of these really cool adaptations that 242 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: we can really learn from. I mean, Michael Phelps had 243 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 3: a whole swimsuit designs like the skin of sharks, and 244 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 3: it was actually so effective that they banded in the Olympics. Like, 245 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 3: just by copying how a shark's skin is designed, you 246 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 3: increased your speed so much that it was banned at 247 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 3: the Olympics. That's wild. Like nature has some really cool 248 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 3: ways of figuring out how to solve problems, and sharks 249 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: have really solved a lot of them. And so we 250 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 3: can learn a lot from sharks, but not if they're 251 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 3: not here. 252 00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: You talk about sharks as case selected animals than are 253 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: selected animals, and how that plays into their vulnerability. Can 254 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: you can you walk us through that real quick? What 255 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: does it mean to be a case selected organism. 256 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,359 Speaker 3: Sure, so when we think about the term case selected, 257 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: and that's a term that's been used for a long time, 258 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 3: people are starting to transition away from it, but I 259 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 3: think it's really good for this concept. You have an organism, 260 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 3: think like a sequoia grows for a really long time, 261 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 3: gets really big, and that's that's great. You know, lives 262 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 3: a long time, super long life, which is a strategy. 263 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 3: And then you think of like a mosquito that lives 264 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 3: and dies pretty much within a couple of days. And 265 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 3: so you are comparing those two things, and it's not 266 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 3: that one is more effective. Mosquitos, you know, are effective 267 00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 3: at existing. Sequoias are effective at existing until you introduce 268 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 3: something like people and all the things that we do 269 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: that causes these things that are supposed to be living 270 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 3: a long time to not live a long time. And 271 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 3: so these case selected organisms are their strategy is live 272 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: a long time, produce a lot of young over a 273 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 3: long period of time, not just you know, put all 274 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 3: of your eggs in one basket. Right at the beginning. 275 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 3: When we have mosquitoes and things like that, there are 276 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 3: selected They don't live a long time, but they have 277 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 3: a lot of young in that amount of time, and 278 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 3: that's fine, whatever strategy works until you start cutting down 279 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: sequoias before they get to live their full life and 280 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 3: reproduce as much as they should have if they live 281 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: their full life. Same thing for sharks. It takes sharks 282 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 3: a really long time to mature. So you think about people, 283 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 3: we're also long lived, don't reproduce very much. If we 284 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: all died before we hit twenty years old, think about 285 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 3: how many of us wouldn't have had children. Think about 286 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 3: what that does to the population we're supposed to live. 287 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 3: You know, roughly seventy eighty ninety. Some people live to 288 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: be over one hundred years old, and you have time 289 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 3: to have multiple children. Not if you die at twenty 290 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 3: that's you don't have that opportunity, and so you can't 291 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 3: replace yourself. And so that's what's happening with sharks is 292 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: their strategy worked for a really long time until we 293 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 3: had these other things come about there now killing them 294 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 3: and they're not living their full life expectancy like they 295 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:50,360 Speaker 3: should have, and so that's affecting everything. It's affecting how 296 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 3: many young are in the next generation. It's affecting the 297 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: health of those young because we also have things like 298 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 3: maternal offloading, which is where a mother shark has so 299 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 3: much toxins, think mercury, think all of those things in 300 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: her body that it starts being detrimental to her. And 301 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 3: the strategy for a case selected individual is I'm going 302 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: to get rid of these toxins and my next litter 303 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 3: of pups, I'm just going to dump it all into 304 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 3: them and they might not survive, but I will keep 305 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 3: living and I will have more pups. So I will 306 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 3: make the sacrifice of these pups so that I can 307 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 3: keep living and continue to have pups, which is a 308 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 3: great strategy, except for if you then are always accumulating mercury, 309 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 3: and now all of your pups are not healthy and 310 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 3: you're continuing to live and reproduce, but the pups that 311 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 3: you're reproducing aren't as viable because they have all these 312 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: toxins in them. And so those are sort of things 313 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 3: that you don't start to think about until you kind 314 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:02,440 Speaker 3: of dive deep into theology and how sharks work. And 315 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 3: that's sort of what I like to talk about in 316 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 3: the book so that people can understand, Hey, conservation of 317 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 3: the oceans involves conserving sharks. 318 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: What do you think are some of the most I 319 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: guess winnable problems with shark conservation right now. What are 320 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: the areas where that are the most easily addressable that 321 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: maybe we're not addressing yet. 322 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 3: So fishing is a big problem. We have overfishing, which 323 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 3: is where they're taking more out of the population than 324 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 3: can replace themselves. But then we also have by catch 325 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 3: and by catches where they're not actually targeting sharks. Sharks 326 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: are not the goal, sharks are accidentally being caught. And 327 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,440 Speaker 3: so that I feel like is something that's we can address. 328 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 3: Is it's not a matter of how do we feed 329 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: these people, how do we make sure that these people 330 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 3: have their economies stabilize. They don't actually want these sharks. 331 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:14,879 Speaker 3: They don't want the sharks. We don't want them to 332 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 3: catch the sharks. This is a perfect way for us 333 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 3: to come together and think how do we keep sharks 334 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 3: out of your gear? And so that's a lot of 335 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 3: what I start thinking about is by catch reduction, how 336 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 3: do we keep these species that people don't want. They 337 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 3: don't want to eat them, they don't need them for anything. 338 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,959 Speaker 3: That's a huge problem where they're dying for no reason 339 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 3: at all. We're not even using them and so that's 340 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 3: one area. Another area with the overfishing is a bit 341 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: more complicated but still doable, is how do we cut 342 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:56,880 Speaker 3: down on the amount of products that we need. So 343 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 3: we think about squalling squalling, and it's the oil in 344 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 3: sharks livers. A lot of it's used in cosmetics and 345 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 3: lotions and things like that. Whilst scientists have figured out 346 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 3: a way to manufacture synthetic squaling, so we replace all 347 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 3: of the squaling that's coming from sharks with synthetic we've 348 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:21,239 Speaker 3: already cut out a good number of sharks deaths and 349 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 3: so little things like that, simple switches that we can 350 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 3: make in order to cut down on the amount of 351 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 3: products that we use. I think people tend to focus 352 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 3: on other people as a means to change. So we 353 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 3: think about shark fin soup. That's what a lot of 354 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 3: people like to focus on, is well, we need to 355 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 3: stop the Asian people from eating shark fin soup. This 356 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 3: is not an Asia problem. This is an everyone problem. 357 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 3: And it's really easy for you to point at somebody 358 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 3: else and say, well, it's their fault. We need to 359 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 3: start thinking about what can I do, what can we 360 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: do here to make changes. It's not about pointing fingers 361 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 3: at people, and I think it's a very slippery slope. 362 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 3: It's really easy to fall into racism and xenophobia and 363 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,280 Speaker 3: be like, these people that are not like me are 364 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 3: the problem. Fishermen are the problem, Asian people are the problem, 365 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 3: Indigenous people are the problem. It's never I'm the problem. 366 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 3: We have to start thinking about how we are contributing 367 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 3: to the problem, because we all are, and we can't 368 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 3: just go pointing fingers at people, especially because the people 369 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 3: that tend to have the fingers pointed at them are 370 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: marginalized communities who don't have a seat at the conservation 371 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 3: table when these discussions are going on. It's really easy 372 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 3: to blame someone when they're not there to defend themselves, 373 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 3: and so I always like to tell people just be 374 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 3: mindful of that when you're starting to think about conservation, 375 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 3: start with yourself first before you start pointing fingers at 376 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 3: other people. 377 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,719 Speaker 1: Now in the book, you bring up the topic of 378 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 1: beach renourishment. Is this something that threatens sharks in the wild. 379 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 3: Beach renourishment is something that's really interesting because as we 380 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 3: have people living on coastlines, we have we have kind 381 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 3: of two I guess groups of people living on coastlines. 382 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 3: We have people who are living on the coastlines because 383 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: they don't have anywhere else to go. And we have 384 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 3: people that are living on coastlines because they want beachfront 385 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 3: property and they want to look at the ocean. And 386 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 3: so these are two groups of people that are often 387 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: in conflict with each other because there's the people that 388 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 3: have the beachfront property, have money and power, and the 389 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,920 Speaker 3: people who do not and are there because that's where 390 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 3: they've been pushed. Thinking about indigenous communities in Louisiana, a 391 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 3: lot of indigen and as communities got pushed to Louisiana 392 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 3: in those parishes that are coastal that are now going underwater, 393 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 3: and that is not where they intended to be, that 394 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 3: is not where their native lands are, that is where 395 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 3: they were pushed. And then we have people you know 396 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 3: that want to come and live in Miami and you know, 397 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 3: have their beaches and stuff. And so we have to 398 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 3: think about this from like two perspectives, because there are 399 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 3: renourishment things where we're trying to keep land available for 400 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 3: people who have nowhere else to go. And that's that's 401 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 3: one issue, and there are lots of ways that we 402 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: can think about how do we keep people where they are, 403 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 3: how do we help them decide where they want to 404 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 3: go and give them a place to go if that's 405 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 3: what they choose to do. Then we have this other 406 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 3: group of people who are like, I want white fluffy 407 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 3: sand in a beach. That is a different situation, and 408 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 3: that's what I'm talking about, Just to clarify, that's what 409 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 3: I'm talking about when I talk about renourishment projects being 410 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 3: a problem renourishing a beach because you want your nice beach. 411 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 3: You're a hotel and your private beach is disappearing. That's 412 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 3: do we need to do that? I don't know. That's 413 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 3: that's debatable. And so we have this issue where we 414 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,120 Speaker 3: put this fake sand or not fake sand, but sam 415 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 3: that's not supposed to be there in an area where 416 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 3: the ocean wants to move it, like mother nature has 417 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 3: decided this be this beach ink won't be here no more. 418 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 3: And when mother nature decides something, it's really hard to 419 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 3: counteract that. And you have a really good reason for 420 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 3: doing that because it's going to be really expensive and 421 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 3: it's probably not gonna work, or it will work, and 422 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 3: it won't last very long. And so what we have 423 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 3: like in Myrtle Beach where my family is from. Is 424 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 3: we have these hotels and these owners of beachfront property saying, well, 425 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 3: my beach disappearing, and that's a natural process, but we're 426 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 3: trying to stop it for economic reasons. And we put 427 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 3: the sand here, and then a hurricane comes, like Hurricane 428 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 3: Ian came and they had just done a beachy nourishment project. 429 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: Guess we're all of that sand that they spent millions 430 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 3: of dollars putting on that peachment. Whoop, the mother nature 431 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 3: took it away mine. Nope, not supposed to be here. 432 00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: But where does that sand go? It gets dumped off shore, 433 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 3: It covers up reefs, it covers up sea grass beds, 434 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 3: it covers up all of these habitats where fish are living, 435 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 3: and all of this sand, just this whole beach just 436 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 3: shifted into the water. And that's where we have an issue. 437 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,239 Speaker 3: Is the ocean giveth and the ocean taketh away. Like 438 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 3: you can put all the sand there you want to. 439 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 3: If the ocean does not want that sand to be there, 440 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 3: it is not going to stay there and it's got 441 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 3: to go somewhere. And that somewhere is often covering important habitats. 442 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 3: We have fishermen that I've talked to that say, immediately 443 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: after a storm, after a renewerished area gets swept away, 444 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 3: they can't catch fish. And that's just terrible because that 445 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: means all of these where did all these fish go, 446 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 3: all of these fishermen that are relying on this, all 447 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 3: of these communities relying on this for food, It's gone. 448 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 3: They can't access it until the sand starts moving further 449 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 3: and further offshore, which who knows how that's how long 450 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 3: that's gonna take. And so these are things we have 451 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 3: to take into consideration. We make these decisions as humans 452 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 3: because we are part of the environment. The environment is 453 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 3: part of us. Every decision we make has an equal 454 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,400 Speaker 3: and opposite reaction. So we need to be making decisions 455 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: based on necessity, not on I want my beach to 456 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 3: look at ice. 457 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: Now, coming back to just sort of the like that 458 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: the character of Sharks, the being in the water with sharks. 459 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: You know, the book is coming out in the summer, 460 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: this episode is publishing in the summer. A lot of 461 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,120 Speaker 1: people are getting in the water. Sometimes people are getting 462 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: in the water, maybe in the vicinity of sharks for 463 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: the first time, or for the first time in a while. 464 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: Do you think there are key things that like the 465 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: average person getting in the water with the sharks might 466 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: need to learn about them or unlearn about them. 467 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 3: Like what. 468 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 1: Do folks often just maybe not seem to understand or 469 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: need to understand a little better before they get in 470 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:32,520 Speaker 1: there with them. 471 00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's just a lot of fear surrounding the ocean 472 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 3: and sharks in particular. And I mean there are tons 473 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 3: of people that will not get in the ocean because 474 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,880 Speaker 3: they are that afraid of sharks. And I mean I 475 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 3: can give numbers and figures and statistics, and maybe that 476 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 3: affects people, maybe it doesn't. You have this fear that's 477 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: been built by years of watching these shark movies and 478 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 3: hearing these news stories and all of the sensationalized things, 479 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 3: and that's something that takes time to get over. And 480 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 3: I think some of the best ways to overcome that 481 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 3: is to do it. You just expose your therapy, get 482 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 3: in the water, see that you're fine, and then you're like, Okay, 483 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: that wasn't so bad. I'll go a little deeper next time. 484 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 3: I'll go a little deeper next time. And once you 485 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 3: get in the ocean, you discover all of these amazing 486 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: things the ocean has to offer. Once you start snorkeling 487 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 3: and looking underneath the water and seeing all of these 488 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 3: fish that are swimming around you and all of that stuff, 489 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 3: hopefully the fascination with the ocean will start to outweigh 490 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,360 Speaker 3: that fear. And I like to kind of remind people 491 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 3: we say things, and our language affects people's perceptions and so, 492 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 3: you know, media all of that, just be mindful of 493 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 3: the way that we portray sharks. So saying things like 494 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: shark infested waters, the waters are not shark infested. That's 495 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: where they live. It's if anything, they're people infested because 496 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: we're the ones that aren't supposed to be there. You 497 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 3: wouldn't say that the sky is bird infested, like they 498 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 3: live there. That's where they are. And you know, the 499 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 3: pictures that we choose to use when we have a story, 500 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: I mean, someone will get nibbled by like a little 501 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 3: tiny leopard shark and they'll be like shark attack off 502 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 3: La Hooia Shores. It'll be like a great white shark. No, 503 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 3: it was like the little tiny, two foot little leopard 504 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 3: shark and the person needed a band aid. We don't 505 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 3: need like this whole like thing. And yes, there are 506 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 3: people who have bites. They have negative encounters with sharks, 507 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 3: it does happen. But we have negative encounters with all 508 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 3: sorts of wild animals. They are animals. We have negative 509 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: encounters with each other, we you know. So it's a 510 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 3: fact of life that if things are in proximity to 511 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 3: each other, eventually there will be a negative encounter. And 512 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 3: it's something that I hope that with the love of 513 00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 3: the ocean and this increased desire to be in the ocean, 514 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 3: similar to how we still get in cars even though 515 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 3: we know that we could get in an accident. That's 516 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 3: because our necessity, our a desire to get from one 517 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 3: place to another quickly and not have to walk outweighs 518 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 3: our fear of getting in an accident. And that's sort 519 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 3: of where we're going with kind of exposing people to 520 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: how cool the ocean is, how exciting it is, and 521 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 3: then that fear is kind of downplayed a little bit. 522 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 3: And I'm not saying that there's like a zero percent 523 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 3: chance that you're gonna get bit by a shark. What 524 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 3: I am saying is, wouldn't you rather experience this amazing 525 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 3: thing rather than be cut off from it because you're 526 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 3: afraid of this thing that's really not gonna happen happening. 527 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 3: And I also like to remind people like I work 528 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,479 Speaker 3: with sharks for a living. I'm like around them all 529 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 3: the time. I've touched them all the time, doing things 530 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 3: that they don't exactly want. Like you don't like for 531 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 3: your dentists to be in your mouth, you don't like 532 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 3: for your nurse to draw your blood. You don't like 533 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 3: these things. They're like good for you, and like the 534 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: sharks don't understand that sharks can't think like people and 535 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,320 Speaker 3: be like, oh, this person's trying to help me. Look 536 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 3: they're removing a parasite. How nice of them. They're like, ah, 537 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 3: why are you touching me? Ah? And so I haven't 538 00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 3: had any issues with sharks. If I haven't, and I 539 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 3: have like way higher probability than the average person. So 540 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 3: you're fine, Like you just walking in the water up 541 00:32:50,360 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 3: to your waist. It's like, you're fine. 542 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: So if chips are down. What's your favorite shark species? 543 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 3: My favorite shark species is the bonnet head shark because 544 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 3: they're adorable. It's also the first shark that I got 545 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 3: to work with, and they were the first shark to 546 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 3: be discovered to be omnivorous, so they eat plants and animals. 547 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 3: Seagrass makes forty to sixty percent of their diet actually, 548 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 3: which is pretty wild that this little shark is eating 549 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 3: potentially more plants than they are eating animals and getting 550 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 3: more nutrition from plants. And so, I mean that just 551 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 3: goes back to how cool sharks are. We have this 552 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 3: one dimensional view of sharks because you hear the word 553 00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 3: shark and you think great white jaws, mindless killing machine. 554 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 3: But there's so much diversity that actually white sharks are 555 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 3: the exception and not the rule. Most sharks are small. 556 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 3: Most sharks are less than four feet long. A lot 557 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 3: of sharks live in the deep sea. Some of them 558 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 3: grow glow in the dark. Some of them have hammers 559 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 3: for heads, Some of them eat plants, some of them 560 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 3: are pretty colors, some of them are filter feeders. It's 561 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 3: just there's so much variety, and we're really doing sharks 562 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 3: at disservice by only thinking of them in this one way. 563 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 3: That would be like us thinking that all humans are 564 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 3: I don't know, six', five or LIKE i don't Know 565 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 3: yao ming or something like, That like where they're not, 566 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,440 Speaker 3: like we're not all like. That we had a lot of. 567 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 3: Varieties some of us have different hair, colors we're different, 568 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 3: shades we're different, sizes we have different. Interests and it 569 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 3: would be doing humans disservice to narrow us down to 570 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 3: like one type of. Person so we shouldn't do that to. 571 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,760 Speaker 1: Sharks now that you pointed out, it it does feel 572 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,400 Speaker 1: like even in like science, reporting a lot of, times 573 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: like the shark diversity stories that kind of end up 574 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 1: poking their head up or ones about like looking. Teeth you, 575 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:02,680 Speaker 1: know it'll be, like, oh look at the goblin. Shark 576 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,279 Speaker 1: it's it's stary, looking you, know and and maybe less 577 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: so On, well here's here's a shark that. Eats it is. 578 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: Omnivorous so that's a great. Point, now in terms of your, 579 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 1: research what shark or ray species are you working with 580 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: the most right? 581 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 3: Now right? Now my work is mostly on understanding the 582 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:26,120 Speaker 3: effects of a harmful alcol bloom Called florida redtide on, 583 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 3: sharks and So i'm doing that work here In Sarasota 584 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 3: bay And Tampa, bay and so a lot of the 585 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,800 Speaker 3: sharks That i'm working with are black, tips black. NOSES 586 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 3: i still am working with bonnet heads a little, bit 587 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 3: although not as. Much and then we have scalloped hammerheads 588 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 3: and great hammer heads as, well and so those are 589 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 3: the main species That i'm interested in working with right. 590 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 3: NOW i still am a part of the sawfish re. 591 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:06,160 Speaker 3: Church right, now sawfish are experiencing a unprecedented die off 592 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 3: in the in The South florida area where they're exhibiting 593 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 3: this weird spinning behavior and washing up. Dead we've lost 594 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 3: quite a number of, them especially considering how small the 595 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 3: population is, already because they're critically, endangered so there's not 596 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:24,759 Speaker 3: a lot of, them and so that's been a big, 597 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 3: concern and So i've been kind of just helping where i, 598 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 3: can giving my expertise WHERE i, can SINCE i have 599 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 3: worked with them for a number of. Years because it's 600 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 3: all hands on deck right. Now no one knows why 601 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 3: this is, happening how to stop, it what's going, on 602 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 3: and so we're all just kind of lending support where we. 603 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 3: Can so that's sort of an ongoing side project of, 604 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 3: mine built more out of, necessity where we're trying to 605 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 3: deal with this unprecedented event now. 606 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: In the shark science is obviously they're going to be 607 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:59,239 Speaker 1: species that are hard to get to or rare in, 608 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,399 Speaker 1: number but in, general are there are there any shark 609 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: species that are considered like, understudied not so much because 610 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: of their, remoteness just because like we just don't, know 611 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 1: don't pay as much attention to. Them are there any 612 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,399 Speaker 1: stories like that in the shark. 613 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,760 Speaker 3: SCIENCES i feel like there are tons of understudied species 614 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 3: and you ask a different scientist and they will give 615 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 3: you a different, answer like THE i, mean there's so 616 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 3: many species of. Sharks there's about five hundred species of, 617 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 3: sharks so we're not studying all of. Them some of 618 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 3: them are in the deep, sea we can't get to, 619 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 3: them some of them are in areas where there's not 620 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 3: a lot of. Support, so AS i, mentioned there are 621 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 3: scientists in countries in the Global south that are doing, 622 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 3: work and that work is, happening but it's not making 623 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:53,080 Speaker 3: it into the mainstream publication system because of these biases that. 624 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,880 Speaker 3: Exist so we have that issue where there are shark 625 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,799 Speaker 3: species that are studied by, someone but we don't get 626 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 3: to hear about it that much because their work is 627 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 3: being suppressed or. Undervalued and so that's one. Thing and 628 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 3: then there's also some species that just aren't as. Glamorous 629 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 3: like there are some species where people are, like, ah, 630 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 3: yes whale, SHARKS i will give money to fund whale shark. 631 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 3: Research if you're, LIKE i want to STUDY i don't, 632 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 3: know the shy shark or something, random people are, like, 633 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 3: okay you, know there's not as much flashy. Money people 634 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,719 Speaker 3: want to spend money on things that are cool and 635 00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:45,240 Speaker 3: glamorous and they're like really excited. About people aren't really 636 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,200 Speaker 3: like investing as much money in sharks that are like 637 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 3: just like super. Cash so there's definitely like a not 638 00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 3: equitable distribution of, funding and so that also drives what 639 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 3: people choose to, study because if they can't get funding 640 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 3: to study that, animal then they have to go and 641 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,239 Speaker 3: try to study something. Else and so there are some 642 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 3: of the less charismatic i'd say shark species that are 643 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 3: not being studied as. Much BUT i mean there's also 644 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 3: like tons of people that are working with sharks, that 645 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 3: LIKE i, said aren't making, headlines they're not making it 646 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,160 Speaker 3: into the. Mainstream and so that's part of WHAT miss 647 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 3: is trying to do is amplify the work that's being 648 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 3: done on some of those lesser known researchers and areas 649 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 3: where people are doing. 650 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: Work in the, book you write so passionately about what 651 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: attracted you to marine biology and the, ocean as well 652 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: as the challenges you've. Faced what advice do you have 653 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: for any young people out there who maybe feel the 654 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: same attraction to the ocean into marine biology and are 655 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: considering a career in SOMEIDE i. 656 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 3: Would, say if you're considering a career in, science you 657 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 3: should one hundred percent go for it and don't let 658 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 3: anyone tell you that you can't do, that and don't 659 00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 3: doubt that you. Can a lot of people, think you, 660 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,719 Speaker 3: know WHENEVER i, say, Oh i'm a, scientist people's first, 661 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 3: reaction like nine times out of ten, is, oh, wow 662 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 3: you must be really. Smart and that's because we have 663 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 3: this perception that scientists are smarter than other. People And 664 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 3: i'm gonna let you in on a. Secret we are 665 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 3: not any smarter other. People that is not, true because 666 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 3: what does smart even? MEAN i don't, Know LIKE i 667 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 3: think there's a there's a famous quote AND i can't 668 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 3: remember who said, it but it was And i'll. Paraphrase 669 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 3: everyone is. Intelligent but if you judge a fish by 670 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,120 Speaker 3: its ability to climb a, tree it will live its 671 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 3: whole life believing it is. Stupid and you, know we're 672 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 3: not any smarter than anyone. Else and so if you're, like, 673 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 3: OH i want to do, science BUT i don't Think 674 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 3: i'm smart, enough throw that, out because let me tell, 675 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:15,000 Speaker 3: you there are some not why scientists out, there and 676 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 3: some of them are like really high up, there big, 677 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 3: shots and they're they do some things that are. Illogical 678 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 3: so just because someone is a scientist doesn't mean they're, 679 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:32,160 Speaker 3: smart and so you shouldn't think, LIKE i don't Think 680 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,359 Speaker 3: i'm smart enough to be a. Scientist that's a. Myth 681 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 3: scientists aren't any smarter than other. PEOPLE i, say as a, 682 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,680 Speaker 3: SCIENTIST i can tell you right NOW i am not 683 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 3: smarter than anyone. Else and then people have this this 684 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 3: fear of, well If i've become a, SCIENTIST i gotta do, 685 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:51,240 Speaker 3: math and math is. Scary AND i struggled with math 686 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 3: a lot WHEN i was in. School it was like 687 00:41:55,920 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 3: my hardest subject AND i actually had to get through 688 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 3: some of my math. CLASSES i basically was in my teachers' 689 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 3: class after school every, day getting tutoring to make it. 690 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 3: Through and so, like you don't have to be good 691 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 3: at everything to be a. Scientist all sciences is asking 692 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 3: questions and trying to figure out the. Answer that's all it. 693 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 3: Is people put all this flare and handwaving and, whatever 694 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 3: and that's all it, is asking, questions trying to figure 695 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 3: out the. Answers you can do that now and wherever you, 696 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 3: are whoever you, are you can ask questions and try 697 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 3: and figure out the. Answers you can do. Science that's all. 698 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:46,200 Speaker 3: Sciences everything else is just. Flair doesn't matter what alphabet 699 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 3: is after your, name doesn't, matter if you have a, 700 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 3: degree doesn't, matter if you even know how to, read 701 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 3: you can do. Science i've seen, children toddlers do science 702 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 3: where they see ants walking and go where are those ants? 703 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 3: Going AND i, SAY i don't, know why don't you 704 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 3: follow them and find? Out and they will follow the 705 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 3: ants and figure out where they're. Going guess, what that's. 706 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:12,879 Speaker 3: Science they just did. Science can't spell their own, name 707 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 3: but they did. Science and so that's all it. Is 708 00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 3: so don't be intimidated by. It don't think that you 709 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,799 Speaker 3: have to be somebody special to do. It we're not. 710 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,360 Speaker 3: Special we're just like anyone else people that do. Science 711 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 3: and if there's a scientist that thinks that they're, special 712 00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 3: they're just a little too over confident in. Themselves they 713 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 3: are not any more special than anyone. Else so anyone 714 00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,239 Speaker 3: can do. Science don't let anyone tell you that you. 715 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,120 Speaker 1: Can't all, right, well this has been. Delightful before we 716 00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 1: close out, here remind everybody again that the book is 717 00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: out now in, digital, physical and. Audiobook, right did you 718 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,319 Speaker 1: read for the? Audiobook? CORRECT i? 719 00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 3: DID i did read for the. 720 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,200 Speaker 1: Audiobook, Awesome so it's out in all. Formats and then 721 00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,759 Speaker 1: as far as minorities And Sharks science, goes where can 722 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: people go to learn more ABOUT, miss to get involved 723 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,640 Speaker 1: WITH miss or donate TO. 724 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 3: Miss, Yes so we have a. Website IT'S Miss elasmo 725 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 3: dot org M i s S e L a s 726 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,360 Speaker 3: M o dot. Org elasmo short for, alasmobrank which is, 727 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 3: sharks skates and. Rays so if you were wondering what that, was. 728 00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 3: Elasmo and we're also On, Twitter, Instagram, facebook, YouTube TikTok and, 729 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 3: LinkedIn uh so you can look us up. There. 730 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: Awesome, well thanks for taking time out of your day 731 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:36,279 Speaker 1: to chat with me here. 732 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 3: Today thanks thanks for having. Me thanks. 733 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,760 Speaker 1: Thanks once more To Jasmine graham for coming on the show. 734 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,240 Speaker 1: Again you can pick up that book right. Now sharks don't. 735 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,240 Speaker 1: Sync you can find it wherever you get your, books 736 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: and it's available now in all four. Minutes thanks as 737 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: always to the Excellent jjpossway for producing this show and 738 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: if you would like to get in touch with this 739 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,360 Speaker 1: if you have suggestions for future episodes Of stuff To 740 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,839 Speaker 1: Blow Your, mind comments on past, episodes or just any 741 00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,040 Speaker 1: other comments you want to share with, us, well you 742 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: can email us at contact at stuff To blow Your 743 00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: mind dot. 744 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:23,000 Speaker 2: Com stuff To Blow Your mind is production Of. iHeartRadio 745 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 2: for more podcasts from my Heart, radio visit The iHeartRadio, 746 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,800 Speaker 2: App Apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite. 747 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:42,280 Speaker 2: Shows