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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. I'm Tom Keane. Along

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Speaker 1: with Jonathan Ferrell and Lisa Brownwitz Jailey, we bring you

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Speaker 1: insight from the best and economics, finance, investment, and international relations.

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Speaker 1: Find Bloomberg Surveillance on Apple Podcast, Suncloud, Bloomberg dot Com,

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Speaker 1: and of course, on the Bloomberg Terminal. The perfect guest

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Speaker 1: to start this week's confer which with Jim Karen of

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Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley Investment Management, Fixed income portfolio Manager. Jim first question, sir,

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Speaker 1: what are we doing back up near one fifty? Well,

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Speaker 1: good morning, thank you for having me on your show. Look,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of things that are going on.

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Speaker 1: One of them is very technical. One of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why yields were so low was because the Treasury General

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Speaker 1: account had been drawn down so much. Now that's really

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Speaker 1: technical speak for saying that there wasn't a lot of

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Speaker 1: net issuance of US treasure reads over the last couple

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Speaker 1: of months. In fact, nearly zero net issuance. Today, all

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Speaker 1: of that is starting to change a lot of things

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Speaker 1: are changing right now that are leading to higher yields.

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Speaker 1: Number One, now we're start going to start to get

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Speaker 1: net positive supply, so more positive net supply is coming

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Speaker 1: to the markets. That and the fact that we're getting

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Speaker 1: closer to a deal on the deficit, then the question

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Speaker 1: becomes is it going to be I'm sorry, a deal

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Speaker 1: on the infrastructure bill? And the question then becomes is

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Speaker 1: it going to be deficit financed? So that's another argument

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Speaker 1: for higher debt into the future. The third point is tapering.

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Speaker 1: The FED is announced pretty aggressively. It seems like at

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Speaker 1: the September FOMC last week that probably by December they're

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Speaker 1: gonna start tapering. So all of the factors that we're

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Speaker 1: keeping yields lower in the second quarter and for part

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Speaker 1: of the third quarter are now starting to run in reverse,

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Speaker 1: and you're seeing yields start to move higher. Not to

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Speaker 1: mention that energy prices are moving up and even some

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Speaker 1: of the COVID cases are are on the decline. We

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Speaker 1: could be setting ourselves up for a much stronger, much

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Speaker 1: awaited for fourth quarter, and all of this is pushing

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Speaker 1: treasury yields higher. And it makes sense. Yeah, Jim Carren.

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Speaker 1: When you're on the Gorman Gulf Stream, you're flying at

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Speaker 1: thirty two thou feet and you're looking down in the

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Speaker 1: yield market, What is the ten uere yield where you

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Speaker 1: signal shift or you signal trip point. We're in a

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Speaker 1: one seven, maybe one fifty, But what's the level where

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Speaker 1: you go things have changed. I think we're past that.

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Speaker 1: I think it's around one forty. The fact that we've

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Speaker 1: gotten a back above one forty is telling us that

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Speaker 1: the correction lower in yields is over with. We have

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Speaker 1: to start thinking about yields progressing up back towards the

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Speaker 1: March thirty one highs around one seventy five, even up

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Speaker 1: to one eight percent, and it's even possible that you

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Speaker 1: could start to even test two percent by end of

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Speaker 1: this year beginning of next year. I think it would

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Speaker 1: be hard to get above two percent and stay there,

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Speaker 1: but I think that's the trajectory that we're on, and

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Speaker 1: the fact that many people have squared up most of

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Speaker 1: their positions. I would say the market's not overly short,

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Speaker 1: so the technicals are are suggesting that you could actually

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Speaker 1: get a push higher. So Tom, I think that we've

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Speaker 1: already tripped that switch, and that we're already in the

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Speaker 1: mode to get towards higher yields. Plus all the supply

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Speaker 1: that's coming. Jim you talked about higher oil prices. We

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Speaker 1: also talk about supply chain disruptions. Are these events Are

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Speaker 1: these appearances inflationary or disinflationary? Lisa, Absolutely, It's is a

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Speaker 1: great it is a great point, and I'm glad we're

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Speaker 1: talking about this. This is inflationary. Um, what we're going

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Speaker 1: to see our rolling supply shortages and so so yes,

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Speaker 1: you know, one day it might be one thing, another

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Speaker 1: day it could be natural gas, another day it could

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Speaker 1: be oil, and and you're gonna start to see this

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Speaker 1: just on a rolling basis going forward as the supply

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Speaker 1: chains are getting readjusted, and then when price gets too high,

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Speaker 1: demand will fall that ass price will come down and

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Speaker 1: it will be another asset, commodity assets turned to start

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Speaker 1: to move higher. So I think this is getting embedded

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Speaker 1: importantly into the psychology of consumers, that prices are going

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Speaker 1: to stay perpetually high. That doesn't mean that we have

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Speaker 1: runaway inflation. It just means it's going to be harder

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Speaker 1: to get below two percent inflation. So now think about this.

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Speaker 1: Even the people say the Fed was hawkish, the median

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Speaker 1: dot in was at one point seven five for the

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Speaker 1: FED funds rate. But inflation is supposed to is supposed

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Speaker 1: to be between two and two and a half percent,

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Speaker 1: or at least it's being expected to be between two

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Speaker 1: and two and a percent, which means that the real

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Speaker 1: Fed funds rate is still going to be minus twenty

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Speaker 1: five to minus fifty basis points. This is still very

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Speaker 1: accommodative uh FED policy at the current moment. There's nothing

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Speaker 1: hawkish about this. So, Jim, let's put all this together.

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Speaker 1: When you say it's hand to get below two percent

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Speaker 1: on inflation, just explain to us and accountli of lines

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Speaker 1: why it's difficult to get up one night s eight

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Speaker 1: on a tenure yield. Well, well, for right now, we

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Speaker 1: are still doing quantitative easing, so there is still some

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Speaker 1: asset purchases that are going through. Bond yields around the world.

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Speaker 1: Although they are starting to rise, we're seeing that in

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Speaker 1: Europe are still very very low. So I think that

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Speaker 1: there is an interest rate differential and then it will

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Speaker 1: come back down to the dollar. Dollar appreciation um At

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Speaker 1: least in the near term. You could see some dollar

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Speaker 1: appreciation that would keep foreign investors interested in the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Treasury market, but that I think is a cycle. Tom.

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Speaker 1: I'm a long term dollar bear. Eventually, these deficits and

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Speaker 1: everything else that's going to catch up to the dollar,

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Speaker 1: and that's gonna push it lower. And foreign investors, which

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Speaker 1: the US demand you know, relies on heavily for demand,

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Speaker 1: is is going to require higher yields to indice entice

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Speaker 1: foreign investors to come in and buy US treasuries. Jim,

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Speaker 1: thank you, sir as all wise and have a good week.

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Speaker 1: Jim Cannon, that of more can standing investment management of

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Speaker 1: fixed income pull folio manager. We've got to start with

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Speaker 1: a fantastic guest this morning, Jean Parvan, head of the

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Speaker 1: black Rock Investment Institute. John, you've got this framework, the

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Speaker 1: new nominal, and allow you to explain that in just

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Speaker 1: a moment, the conversation we're having once we start raising

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Speaker 1: interest rates in America maybe the back end of next year.

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Speaker 1: Who knows, Sean, I can't predict next year. How steep

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Speaker 1: will that policy path be, How shallow will it be,

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Speaker 1: How loose will any potential tiening be? The answer to that, John,

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Speaker 1: I think it's gonna be the shallow as we've seen

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Speaker 1: in decades. Um. You know, we have to go back

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Speaker 1: to maybe the fifties and the sixties to see the

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Speaker 1: same kind of shadow pad as I think we're going

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Speaker 1: to see so nothing of the you know, recent cycle.

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Speaker 1: I think is is a guide much shadower, and I

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Speaker 1: think we've seen more, much more, you know, ongoing evidence

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Speaker 1: that they are, you know, on the slow path. I

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Speaker 1: think they've been very deliberate to try to separate the

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Speaker 1: taper discussion last week from from the liftoff and from

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Speaker 1: from what it's work. We cannot predict wate, we need two.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's a eight twenty three story. The

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Speaker 1: first rate hike jump a black rock in your team

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Speaker 1: unabashedly say your pro risk I mean, you mean snow

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Speaker 1: words about it. How do these changes, the worry worry,

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Speaker 1: worry out there affect corporate thinking with a higher yield regime,

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Speaker 1: with steepening of the curb and on and on, how

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Speaker 1: does pro risk come over the corporate action? Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: the pet had for for you know, equities and risk

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Speaker 1: assess break higher is getting narrower. So I mean, I

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Speaker 1: just want I want to college that. And after a streak,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you look at the chart of the smps

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Speaker 1: you start in general, and you look at it and

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Speaker 1: there's no way you can tell them in the pandemic. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean this does race question. I think we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be an environment where markets will be more primed to

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Speaker 1: look at risk and maybe more natility. But in that environment,

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Speaker 1: we still think that the fundamentals are constructive for for

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Speaker 1: the time being, and as a result, we would you know,

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Speaker 1: look through that. That's where the pro risk on a

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Speaker 1: bashing version is coming from. How concerned are you about

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Speaker 1: what's going on in China with respect to not only

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Speaker 1: the scrutiny of the tech companies, but also what some

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Speaker 1: people are calling an increasing energy crisis, especially as the

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Speaker 1: regulators try to clamp down on fossil fuel usage ahead

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Speaker 1: of the Olympics. Yeah, so I think, I mean broader

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Speaker 1: story and in China is that you know, the direction

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Speaker 1: of travel towards UH, a greater role of social objective

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Speaker 1: politics over economics is is unmistakable. Um, it's playing out

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Speaker 1: and I think we should we should all acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: it changes the lens eens of investment. However, Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've seen a very steep decline activity throughout the course

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Speaker 1: of one I mean, you know from earlier this year

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Speaker 1: to queue Ford is going to look so for as

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Speaker 1: far as we're concerned. So that's a pretty seem decline,

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Speaker 1: and even a country that is, you know, on the

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Speaker 1: path to put other objectives in front um, I think

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Speaker 1: they cannot ignore this weakening growth. So that makes us

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Speaker 1: you know, we've been neutral on Chinese equities for for

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Speaker 1: for the last few months, but we start to think

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Speaker 1: now that it's time to dip our toe back or

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Speaker 1: start to dip our though in the Chinese equities, given

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Speaker 1: that you know, we see some easing of the various

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Speaker 1: palty tools over the next few months. Can you elaborate

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Speaker 1: on dipping your toe back into Chinese equities? Where do

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Speaker 1: you see a sort of a safe place to park

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Speaker 1: amid still a lot of ongoing on certainty. I should

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Speaker 1: I should qualify the back because we've just broken out

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Speaker 1: the Chinese equities as a as a stem alone asset

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Speaker 1: class for the first time in June or Minion outlooks,

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Speaker 1: so I mean, there's no bad aspects. So but we're

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Speaker 1: dipping our toes in the sense that you know, you've

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Speaker 1: seen on the performance of the Chinese equities over US

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Speaker 1: equities for good reasons. That's where we were neutral. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, that's a pretty the gap as

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Speaker 1: has been pretty material in terms of the two regions.

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Speaker 1: And while there's a lot of uncertainty, I mean that

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Speaker 1: means the recipium has increased quite considerably. And now I

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Speaker 1: think it's the time to think about opportunities reappearing. I'm

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Speaker 1: thinking about the broad market exposures here as opposed to

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Speaker 1: specific and um But that broad market explosure, that broad

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Speaker 1: market story, I think is a repriced quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: John just quickly find a question, how do you reconcile

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Speaker 1: your bond market call, your federal reserve call with where

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Speaker 1: you want to own in the equity market domestically here

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Speaker 1: in America. So we think the bad market call. Just

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Speaker 1: to clarify, as we think rates on the way way

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Speaker 1: up on the ten uere We've been like increasing our

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Speaker 1: underweight US treasuries over the course of the last few months.

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Speaker 1: Our conviction has not waned, despite the fact that it

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Speaker 1: has been stubbornly low over the course of the last

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Speaker 1: few months. But we think that the direction is up.

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Speaker 1: That said, it's in the context to go back where

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Speaker 1: we started, where we're going to see a very shallow

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Speaker 1: normalization of policy rate in the US and as a result,

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Speaker 1: and some more inflation coming. But this combination of an

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Speaker 1: inflation coming through with very oh rate um, it's it's um.

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Speaker 1: It's a real rate environment that's very negative and contin

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Speaker 1: used to be and that will be um you know,

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Speaker 1: supportive of of equity or risk ascid even the U S.

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Speaker 1: We're neutral on US equity though, just to be clear,

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Speaker 1: uh and I think that's more coming from this the juncture,

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Speaker 1: the fiscal policy landscape on the tax front, that ceiling.

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Speaker 1: Uh and and we're gonna we're gonna hear more this week.

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Speaker 1: We want to just right there, just I want to

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Speaker 1: make that clear. You care about the dead ceiling. We

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Speaker 1: think there's headline restaurant the dead ceiling. Ultimately, we put

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Speaker 1: out a note last week where we say, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be noise. The market is prone to be

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Speaker 1: reacting to noise and this juncture, like we said, but

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Speaker 1: we will advise looking through. But the headline risk is there.

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Speaker 1: But again we haven't certainly around the how big this

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Speaker 1: package will be. As a result, we haven't certainly around

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Speaker 1: corporate taxes and the like. And that's a neutral the

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Speaker 1: neutral sense on US equity. Joan, thank you, Jean Bavan.

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Speaker 1: There of blank Rock the Investment Institute had right now

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Speaker 1: joining us on a political moment and what it means

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Speaker 1: for economics financial investment. Gregory Vellier joins us with a

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Speaker 1: g F Investments always a stude on the moment a hand, Greg,

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Speaker 1: I am dumbfounded by Democrats taking a victory now like

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Speaker 1: it was sixty four sixty five and the resounding win

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Speaker 1: of L. B. J Lyndon Baines Johnson off of the

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Speaker 1: assassination of JFK took sixtent of the vote. Biden took

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Speaker 1: fifty one point three percent of the vote. How much

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Speaker 1: of a majority does the president have to ram through

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Speaker 1: this set of legislative pieces. He doesn't have much, Tom.

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Speaker 1: I think that that is one of the big realizations

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Speaker 1: over the last weekend. Nancy Pelosi, of all people, said

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Speaker 1: that we're not going to be at three point five trillion.

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Speaker 1: That was a big concession in my opinion. And then

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Speaker 1: she threw out another concession, Tom, and that is that

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Speaker 1: we're not going to have a government shutdown. At the

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Speaker 1: end of this week. They'll do an extension. So those

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Speaker 1: two thinks make me a little more up to stick.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not euphoric, but I think the chances of

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Speaker 1: a major crisis are still remote. And then one final point,

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Speaker 1: I urge everyone to read the Wall Street Journal piece

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Speaker 1: on the Fed's tools. If we were to have a

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Speaker 1: debt real debt crisis and a default crisis, the FED

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Speaker 1: has options. They can sell some of their treasuries, they

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Speaker 1: can buy defaulting treasuries. So this this is a serious story,

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Speaker 1: but it's not an apocalyptic story. Greg, very importantly, do

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Speaker 1: you sense negotiations that are normal, that they have a

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Speaker 1: give and take and a back and forth among well

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Speaker 1: meaning politicians. No, I don't see it yet. I think

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Speaker 1: that there's a lot of anger at Mitch McConnell because

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Speaker 1: the Republicans spent like drunken sailors for four years with

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Speaker 1: tax cuts and a lot of spending. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of resentment toward him right now. Frankly, I

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Speaker 1: think the negotiations that really matter are among Democrats. You

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Speaker 1: still got to get a full of very important moderates

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Speaker 1: on board. That's coming, But I think a deal with

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Speaker 1: Republicans comes later in the fall. Greg, you mentioned this

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Speaker 1: Nick Timorrow story in the Walster Tournal. Let's go there.

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Speaker 1: This idea that the FED could be thrust once again,

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Speaker 1: it's the political spotlight actually taking a role in trying

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Speaker 1: to stave off a political default. How much is this

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Speaker 1: a risk for the Federal Reserve that when Congress stalls

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Speaker 1: out and can't get stuff done, the Federal Reserve has

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Speaker 1: to sort of be left holding the bag and takes

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Speaker 1: a lot of heat as a result on all sides. Yeah, Lisa,

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Speaker 1: it's a good point. They dread this. They don't want

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Speaker 1: to get an image of being the you know, the

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Speaker 1: lender of last resort. Uh And I think they would

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Speaker 1: make it clear this is an exception. But you read

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Speaker 1: the piece that they've been there before, they've considered these options.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of controversy with them, including some of

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Speaker 1: the active traders at the FED, and now there's going

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Speaker 1: to be controversy over this. Well, you know, that's just

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Speaker 1: the way things are right now. It's a very controversial,

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Speaker 1: dysfunctional period and w it's the way things are, especially

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Speaker 1: at a time when FED Chair J. Powell is up

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Speaker 1: for the potential renomination by Jerome by President Biden. There's

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Speaker 1: a question though here how much inflation is starting to

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Speaker 1: concern Democrats more than it had previously, and perhaps this

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Speaker 1: is one of the reasons for some of the concessions

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Speaker 1: the Nancy Pelosi made. Do you really feel like that's

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Speaker 1: the case? Yeah, I think that more and more voters

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Speaker 1: around the country are linking together higher prices and big spending.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure the correlation is there, but the voters

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Speaker 1: believe that, and as long as they do, I think

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Speaker 1: at price tag like three point five trillion is just

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Speaker 1: too rich. Greg I was looking at ed case of Hawaii.

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Speaker 1: It's a hugely democratic state, and he is clearly a

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Speaker 1: moderate Democrat as well. What does Speaker Pelosi have to

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Speaker 1: offer moderates blue dogs like Ed case of Hawaii, Well,

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Speaker 1: not a lot to on That's that's one of the

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Speaker 1: problems here. Maybe she's gonna for him a better chance

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Speaker 1: of getting reelected. An awful lot of Democrats I talked to,

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Speaker 1: or their staffs anyway, are saying they're scared about. The

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Speaker 1: issue is not will the Republicans win the House? The

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Speaker 1: issue is by how much? Will they win the House

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Speaker 1: by ten, twelve, fifteen, twenty seats. When you start talking

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Speaker 1: about numbers like that, a lot of people, like the

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Speaker 1: gentleman from Hawaii run for cover. So just before we

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Speaker 1: let you go, you said that three and a half

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Speaker 1: trillion dollar plan is a pipe geam. Even Nancy Pelosi

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Speaker 1: said that what are you seeing in terms of what

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Speaker 1: the likely bill will look like in terms of size

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Speaker 1: and in terms of taxes, well under two. But there's

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Speaker 1: so many gimmicks. Some of these programs are five years,

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Speaker 1: some or seven, some of ten. Some will expire and

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Speaker 1: then get shoved shoved off to the States. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of gimmickry. But I think that let's say something

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Speaker 1: more around two is far more likely, and it's not

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Speaker 1: him if investments. Gregg, thank you on the week ahead

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Speaker 1: and beyond. We have a rare treat right now. We'll

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Speaker 1: get right to a Lloyd Miner is one of the

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Speaker 1: most different physicians I know out there. He has someone

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Speaker 1: with world class first order research on the balance of

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Speaker 1: the ear. He has taken that over to medicine and

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Speaker 1: the management of hospitals and all among other things that

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Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins a residency at Duke a few years ago

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Speaker 1: in olds Court and Palo Alto. Right now, what's your

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Speaker 1: biggest headache right now? Dean? I think our biggest concern

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Speaker 1: right now is to make sure that we continue to

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Speaker 1: provide outstanding healthcare, that we take care of our students

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Speaker 1: eighteen thousand students back on our campus, and that we

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Speaker 1: comply with the federal mandate that the Biden administration is

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Speaker 1: issued with regard to the vaccine mandate. What is your

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Speaker 1: strategy with your unvaccinated staff. Well, first time we have

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Speaker 1: a highly vaccinated it's between within your hospitals, within our hospitals, yes,

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Speaker 1: and and around the university. It's similar. I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: still gathering that information. We want to make sure that

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Speaker 1: that we're providing those who wish to apply for a

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Speaker 1: religious or medical exemption, that we provide the avenue to

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Speaker 1: you know, issue that application and have it reviewed. But

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Speaker 1: we know that these vaccinations are among the safest and

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Speaker 1: most effective vaccinations ever developed. We want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we answer any questions people have and ultimately get

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Speaker 1: a fully vaccinated workforce. Meanwhile, Dr Minor over in New

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Speaker 1: York State, there is a mandate that healthcare workers get

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Speaker 1: vaccinated and actually the governor and Kathy Hokel has said

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Speaker 1: that she may bring in the National Guard to fill

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Speaker 1: empty healthcare rules once this mandate goes into effect, which

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Speaker 1: is this week. What do you make of all this?

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Speaker 1: It's really important that our healthcare organizations, hospitals, clinics be

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Speaker 1: able to continue to provide outstanding care. You know, the

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Speaker 1: real tragedy early on in the pandemic was in places

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Speaker 1: like New York where the healthcare workforce became overwhelmed. We

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Speaker 1: had too many patients overwhelming our facilities and our workforce.

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Speaker 1: So I think having skilled, trained healthcare personnel, and if

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Speaker 1: that's the National Guard, uh, then then perhaps that's appropriately

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Speaker 1: making sure we continue to provide care to patients when

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Speaker 1: they need it by skilled personnel is going to be

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Speaker 1: really important. Dr Dr Miner. If there are people who

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Speaker 1: doubt the efficacy or doubt the potential risks of the vaccine,

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Speaker 1: what does it send them in terms of messaging that

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Speaker 1: a lot of healthcare workers are not getting vaccinated themselves.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a difficult message and uh and one

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Speaker 1: that concerns me a lot. We we have a highly

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Speaker 1: vaccinated healthcare workforce where we are, and I think that's

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Speaker 1: true across most areas of the country. It's the pandemic

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Speaker 1: has been overwhelming and overwhelming experience for all of us.

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Speaker 1: But I think the steps at the FDA, the c

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Speaker 1: d C have taken to ensure the safety and efficacy

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Speaker 1: of these vaccines are remarkable, and we need to do

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Speaker 1: the best job we can in healthcare to communicate that

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Speaker 1: message so that more people feel reassured and get vaccinated.

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Speaker 1: Our listeners are viewers have to be confused by the

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Speaker 1: cacophony of politics. F D a federal this maybe world

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Speaker 1: health organization, but certainly c DC. What's your desire for

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Speaker 1: c DC and Washington officials to get on the same page, Tom,

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Speaker 1: I think it's really important that that federal agencies UH

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Speaker 1: and the FDA and CDC in particular are aligned, and

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Speaker 1: I think Dr Willinsky. Director Willinsky of course ultimately issued

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Speaker 1: a ruling aligning the CDC recommendations pretty much with the

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Speaker 1: FDA recommendations. But there was, as you described, there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of back and forth with the advisory committee.

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Speaker 1: It's important to have advisory committees. They represent a diversity

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Speaker 1: of opinions and areas of expertise. But at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, it's up to the leaders to make

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Speaker 1: sure the alignments. There is this one off like is

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Speaker 1: this something new for you with all of your decades

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Speaker 1: of experience, or is this sort of the way the

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Speaker 1: sausage is made within the vaccine bacteria community. Well, COVID

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Speaker 1: is certainly one off for all of us. But and

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Speaker 1: I think ordinarily Tom these disagreements do exist in a

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Speaker 1: healthy way between regulatory agencies. But we're in the midst

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Speaker 1: of a huge crisis, and so alignment and coordination is

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Speaker 1: particularly important getting us through this crisis. Dr Monner, there

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Speaker 1: was a study that came out of Oxford University that

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Speaker 1: came out this morning that said that American men lost

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Speaker 1: more than two years of lifespan as a result of

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Speaker 1: the COVID pandemic. When we look back on this period,

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Speaker 1: what will be the healthcare legacy of the COVID pandemic. Well,

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Speaker 1: I hope the legacy will be how we responded as

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Speaker 1: a as a nation and how we responded as a

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Speaker 1: healthcare community. Certainly, there are many aspects of that response

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Speaker 1: that we wish were different, but I think we've all

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Speaker 1: learned a lot and are learning a lot. I am

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Speaker 1: just so proud every day to work with an amazing

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Speaker 1: group of dedicated healthcare professionals where I am at Stanford,

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Speaker 1: and I would say that about really healthcare workers around

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Speaker 1: the country and supporting our healthcare workforce during these trying

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Speaker 1: times is going to be particularly important as we all

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Speaker 1: get through this together. Just a Miner, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for joining Bloomberg today, and you're greatly greatly appreciate

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Speaker 1: that Lloyd Miner has been with us many many times

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Speaker 1: year across the arc of this pandemic. And we look

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Speaker 1: for further conversations of course Stanford University School of Medicine,

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Speaker 1: Diana as well. This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for listening. Join us live weekdays from seven to ten

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Speaker 1: am Eastern on Bloomberg Radio and on Bloomberg Television each

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Speaker 1: day from six to nine am for insight from the

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Speaker 1: best in economics, finance, investment, and international relations. And subscribe

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Speaker 1: to the Surveillance podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud, Bloomberg dot com,

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Speaker 1: and of course on the terminal. I'm Tom keene In.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomer