WEBVTT - Inventing a Better Apple 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:33.116 Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem. 0:00:33.676 --> 0:00:37.236 My guest today is Kate Evans. Kate is a professor 0:00:37.316 --> 0:00:41.316 in the Department of Horticulture at Washington State University, and 0:00:41.356 --> 0:00:44.316 her problem is this, how do you invent a new 0:00:44.396 --> 0:00:47.076 kind of apple? How do you invent an apple that 0:00:47.276 --> 0:00:51.676 grows reliably, that stores well, that can handle warming temperatures, 0:00:52.036 --> 0:00:55.636 and that, by the way, also taste delicious and looks pretty. 0:00:55.876 --> 0:00:58.996 Sitting there on the shelf at the grocery store with 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:01.916 her team, Kate has in fact invented a new kind 0:01:01.916 --> 0:01:05.396 of apple. It's called the Sunflair and it is coming 0:01:05.436 --> 0:01:08.556 relatively soon to a store near you. This is the 0:01:08.636 --> 0:01:12.476 second apple she helped to invent in Washington. The first 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:16.716 was the ambitiously named Cosmic Crisp Apple, which went on 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:20.636 sale in twenty nineteen. And you Know What's Your Problem 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:25.636 is basically a show about innovation, about technological innovation. And 0:01:25.676 --> 0:01:28.716 I talk to people figuring out new ways to generate 0:01:28.876 --> 0:01:32.036 energy and treat disease and use AI and do all 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:34.276 these classic things that we think of when we think 0:01:34.316 --> 0:01:39.036 of innovation and technology. But innovation is not just in 0:01:39.076 --> 0:01:42.476 these kinds of obvious tech driven things. It is in 0:01:42.796 --> 0:01:46.876 more or less everything, and it's delightful and illuminating to 0:01:46.956 --> 0:01:51.036 learn about how innovation works with something as ubiquitous and 0:01:51.116 --> 0:01:55.156 old fashioned as an apple, a piece of fruit. As 0:01:55.156 --> 0:01:58.196 it happens. Over the past several decades, there has, in 0:01:58.236 --> 0:02:01.716 fact been an incredible amount of innovation in apples, and 0:02:02.396 --> 0:02:04.876 if you're an apple leader of a certain age, like 0:02:04.916 --> 0:02:08.876 I am, you have observed this innovation. And so to start, 0:02:09.156 --> 0:02:11.476 asked Kate, why the apples you get at the grocery 0:02:11.516 --> 0:02:14.596 store are so much better now than they were when 0:02:14.636 --> 0:02:18.436 I was a child. So I want to actually start 0:02:18.956 --> 0:02:21.436 before the stuff you've worked on, just for a minute, 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:25.236 just to get the context, because I'm old enough to 0:02:25.276 --> 0:02:29.596 remember when there were three kinds of apples, at least 0:02:30.076 --> 0:02:32.516 in the grocery store in the suburbs of San Diego 0:02:32.516 --> 0:02:36.276 where I grew up. There were Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, 0:02:36.316 --> 0:02:39.476 and Granny Smith. And I didn't like any of them. 0:02:40.276 --> 0:02:43.276 Granny Smith were crispy but too sour, at least for 0:02:43.316 --> 0:02:45.956 a kid to tart. And then Red Delicious and Golden 0:02:45.996 --> 0:02:50.356 Delicious were not delicious. They were bad. They're really sorry 0:02:50.396 --> 0:02:53.716 Red Delicious, but it's true today there's a million kinds 0:02:53.716 --> 0:02:57.356 of apples and a lot of them are delicious. What changed. 0:02:58.676 --> 0:03:02.116 Well, I mean, first of all, I have to ask 0:03:02.156 --> 0:03:03.356 it depends how old you are. 0:03:04.036 --> 0:03:07.836 Sorry, I'm fifty. I mean in my early fifties, in 0:03:07.876 --> 0:03:09.916 my early fifties, fair question. 0:03:12.516 --> 0:03:15.916 So a couple of things, you know, as far as 0:03:16.196 --> 0:03:21.156 the food supply chain management is concerned, that's one thing. 0:03:21.276 --> 0:03:26.476 So refrigeration technology and being able to better store fruit 0:03:26.676 --> 0:03:29.956 so that the consumer gets a better eating quality. I'd 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:33.436 argue that you probably would get a better quality piece 0:03:33.476 --> 0:03:36.196 of red Delicious, gold and Delicious and Granny Smith these 0:03:36.276 --> 0:03:40.156 days as well. Yes, But from a plant breeder perspective, 0:03:40.196 --> 0:03:42.876 which is obviously my whole deal close to my heart, 0:03:43.876 --> 0:03:48.836 we plant breeders have done our thing, and yeah, we've 0:03:48.876 --> 0:03:53.116 bred and released a whole load of new, improved varieties. 0:03:53.596 --> 0:03:56.556 I mean that's the fact. But like, why did it happen? 0:03:56.676 --> 0:03:59.596 Like was there a breakout moment? Was there one apple 0:03:59.636 --> 0:04:01.956 where everybody's like, oh wow, we could make lots of 0:04:01.996 --> 0:04:04.756 different apples, or like, what happened? Why did it happen 0:04:04.836 --> 0:04:05.396 when it did? 0:04:06.476 --> 0:04:10.636 I think in the US it happened with a shift 0:04:10.476 --> 0:04:17.756 in technologies of production And what really changed a lot 0:04:17.796 --> 0:04:22.556 of US production was bringing in dwarfing rootstocks for apple, 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:25.556 which means that you could grow a lower vigo tree. 0:04:26.436 --> 0:04:29.116 That meant that there were a lot of orchidice, particularly 0:04:29.196 --> 0:04:31.796 over here in Washington, where the bulk of the production 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:35.036 in the US comes from a lot of orchardice, who 0:04:35.036 --> 0:04:37.396 were interested in trying a few different varieties. 0:04:37.796 --> 0:04:40.596 The dwarf thing. Does it lower the risk for the grower? 0:04:40.716 --> 0:04:42.196 Is that why it's meaningful? It's like, well, you can 0:04:42.276 --> 0:04:43.916 just try a little one and it's not so risky. 0:04:43.916 --> 0:04:45.276 You're like, why is that meaningful? 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:49.356 Good question. A new variety means you've got to establish 0:04:49.356 --> 0:04:52.276 a new orchard block. For a grower to invest and 0:04:52.356 --> 0:04:57.916 plant a new block, that's a pretty big investment. And 0:04:58.036 --> 0:05:01.836 so with the onset of dwarfing rootstocks, there was a change. 0:05:02.036 --> 0:05:05.756 Growers were moving forward and establishing new blocks and there's 0:05:05.796 --> 0:05:08.436 that time point, well why not try a new variety 0:05:08.476 --> 0:05:09.076 as well? 0:05:09.236 --> 0:05:12.436 Huh. The one for me that was the big shift 0:05:12.636 --> 0:05:14.916 was the Fuji. That was the first time where I 0:05:14.956 --> 0:05:17.556 was like, oh, there's a kind of apple that I 0:05:17.676 --> 0:05:21.716 love and it's reliable, right, Like part of the thing 0:05:21.756 --> 0:05:24.876 with Red Delicious, it's the same problem I have with 0:05:25.036 --> 0:05:27.636 nectarines and peaches. You just don't know if it's going 0:05:27.676 --> 0:05:30.116 to be good. And like a fuji, as long as 0:05:30.156 --> 0:05:33.116 it's not like bruised, it's pretty much always good and 0:05:33.156 --> 0:05:36.756 it always tastes the same and it's always crispy. 0:05:37.516 --> 0:05:40.156 Yeah, you know, and that I think that's one of 0:05:40.196 --> 0:05:42.556 the I'm glad you brought that up, really, because that's 0:05:42.636 --> 0:05:45.516 one of the focuses that I have in my program 0:05:45.596 --> 0:05:50.076 is to have a consistent eating quality of new varieties 0:05:50.076 --> 0:05:53.076 that come through. And that means we do a massive 0:05:53.116 --> 0:05:56.436 amount of evaluation at different storage points through the season, 0:05:56.676 --> 0:05:58.996 so that piece of fruit for you as a consumer, 0:05:59.116 --> 0:06:01.396 tastes great whenever you buy it. 0:06:02.116 --> 0:06:04.636 Right, So the qualities you need in an apple are 0:06:04.676 --> 0:06:11.796 not just it's delicious when you pick it. Are the 0:06:11.956 --> 0:06:14.876 apples that are just like incredible when you pick them, 0:06:14.876 --> 0:06:17.516 but they don't ship, they don't store, and so I'm 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:19.636 never going to taste one unless they happen to randomly 0:06:19.636 --> 0:06:21.556 walk by some tree. 0:06:21.756 --> 0:06:24.796 Yes, those are the ones that break our hearts as 0:06:25.476 --> 0:06:29.156 because we you know, they're the selections that they're out 0:06:29.196 --> 0:06:33.356 there as seeding apples and they're phenomenal and you think, 0:06:33.436 --> 0:06:36.676 oh my goodness, this just tastes wonderful, But two weeks later. 0:06:37.756 --> 0:06:42.996 Yeah, So let's talk about the Sunflair TM apple. First 0:06:42.996 --> 0:06:44.556 of all, I want to mention that when you wrote 0:06:44.556 --> 0:06:46.156 to us about it, we had some questions and you 0:06:46.156 --> 0:06:49.116 wrote back to Gabriella, producer of the show, you put 0:06:49.116 --> 0:06:53.636 the little TM above the word Sunflair every time. So 0:06:53.676 --> 0:06:56.956 I'm sure the lawyers there will be will be happy 0:06:56.996 --> 0:07:02.236 to hear that. Why do you put the little TM 0:07:02.276 --> 0:07:03.916 every time you write the word sunflair? 0:07:04.836 --> 0:07:08.596 Well, because the name is a brand name. Yeah, and 0:07:09.356 --> 0:07:13.596 most modern apples have a brand name associated with them. 0:07:13.716 --> 0:07:17.796 So like any piece of like any invention, I mean, 0:07:17.916 --> 0:07:21.076 a new apple variety is an invention. We patent it 0:07:21.316 --> 0:07:25.276 in this country, but a patent only has a certain 0:07:25.556 --> 0:07:30.596 amount of life, and to establish a new apple variety 0:07:30.716 --> 0:07:34.156 and get it out into production and for it to 0:07:34.236 --> 0:07:37.956 re making an impact in production takes most of that 0:07:38.036 --> 0:07:41.276 patent life. And so if you want to kind of 0:07:41.316 --> 0:07:44.436 reap any benefits from the intellectual property and have any 0:07:44.476 --> 0:07:48.916 way of controlling where that apple has grown, how it's grown, 0:07:48.996 --> 0:07:54.396 how it's marketed, etc. Establishing a trademark brand name is 0:07:54.436 --> 0:07:59.076 really important because that's the thing that you can keep indefinitely. 0:07:59.356 --> 0:08:03.756 Yes, A patent is what twenty years at this point, yes, 0:08:04.756 --> 0:08:07.356 ish yeah, but a trademark is forever. 0:08:08.116 --> 0:08:08.956 As long as we use it. 0:08:09.596 --> 0:08:11.436 Yeah, as long as that's why you're putting the little 0:08:11.436 --> 0:08:15.876 TM on it, right right. Tell me about the Sunflair Apple. 0:08:15.956 --> 0:08:16.476 What's it like? 0:08:17.276 --> 0:08:22.956 So it is a unique yellow with a pink blush 0:08:23.196 --> 0:08:26.396 appearance apple. So I think as a consumer you'd be 0:08:26.436 --> 0:08:28.836 able to see it and recognize it on the on 0:08:28.916 --> 0:08:31.516 the shelf in the supermarket, which is important. 0:08:31.796 --> 0:08:34.836 Interesting, it's like it's like a package. It's the packaging. 0:08:35.516 --> 0:08:38.276 Well it is, yeah, because you know you want to 0:08:38.396 --> 0:08:40.716 know that's the one I like, and that's the one 0:08:40.756 --> 0:08:44.516 I'm going back to buy it again, right. And then 0:08:44.516 --> 0:08:50.676 it has a sweet teart balance with a fairly firm 0:08:50.876 --> 0:08:57.276 crisp texture, so a firmer texture than cosmic crisp, but 0:08:57.436 --> 0:08:58.236 still crisp. 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:03.076 Okay is firm, not crisp is firm, different than crisp. 0:09:03.076 --> 0:09:05.756 I don't think I have the language to distinguish. 0:09:05.956 --> 0:09:12.876 Oh no, I'm not a sensory scientist. Yeah. I think 0:09:12.916 --> 0:09:15.316 there is something to do with the bite and the 0:09:15.876 --> 0:09:18.876 way that the flesh sounds awful. The way the flesh 0:09:18.956 --> 0:09:22.076 ruptures when you sink your teeth into it is a 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:25.556 crisp thing, and then what is ferm, and then firm 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:28.756 is how you chew it through your molars, And that's. 0:09:28.556 --> 0:09:29.236 Sort of interesting. 0:09:29.316 --> 0:09:31.476 The work that you're putting into something. 0:09:31.516 --> 0:09:33.836 The firmer it is, like, the more you gotta chew 0:09:33.956 --> 0:09:37.196 curt Yes, okay, interesting, Okay, tell me more of what 0:09:37.236 --> 0:09:39.316 it's like. I mean, I guess it's a cross between 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:42.516 a crisp pink and a honey crisp. So like I've 0:09:42.556 --> 0:09:43.836 eaten both of those apples. 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:48.396 Well, I would say that honey crisp tends to you 0:09:48.556 --> 0:09:52.596 taste it as being sweeter and less tart. Crips pink 0:09:52.676 --> 0:09:56.116 you probably have more tart, you know when you're tasting that. 0:09:56.756 --> 0:10:00.516 Some flare is somewhere between the two. And also in 0:10:00.596 --> 0:10:03.876 terms of texture, so honey crisp is an ultra crisp, 0:10:04.316 --> 0:10:07.676 but not as ferm. It's a slightly softer apple in 0:10:07.756 --> 0:10:12.276 terms of firmness, whereas crips pink is less crisp but firmer, 0:10:12.516 --> 0:10:16.636 and so sunfloir actually sits somewhere in the middle. I 0:10:16.636 --> 0:10:20.356 would say it probably is a little more like crips 0:10:20.396 --> 0:10:21.956 pink than like honey crisp. 0:10:22.076 --> 0:10:28.196 Okay, so the Sunflair is just coming out now, right, correct? 0:10:28.316 --> 0:10:29.116 Yes? Yeah? 0:10:29.636 --> 0:10:31.116 When am I going to be able to eat one? 0:10:31.876 --> 0:10:34.316 Probably not until twenty twenty nine. 0:10:35.356 --> 0:10:37.476 Yeah, okay, So that means the trees are out there 0:10:37.516 --> 0:10:38.956 growing in the orchards. 0:10:39.556 --> 0:10:42.596 The first trees were planted I think last week commanded. 0:10:42.676 --> 0:10:45.756 Okay, congratulations, have us to be a very exciting moment free, 0:10:45.956 --> 0:10:46.596 Yeah it is. 0:10:46.716 --> 0:10:46.916 Yeah. 0:10:48.036 --> 0:10:51.116 So what was the problem you were setting out to 0:10:51.196 --> 0:10:54.916 solve when you set out to create the Sunflair. 0:10:55.676 --> 0:11:00.356 The main thing that we focus on is not so 0:11:00.436 --> 0:11:04.396 much a particular problem, but it is producing a variety 0:11:04.516 --> 0:11:09.476 that eats fabulously for a consumer, So something that consumers 0:11:09.516 --> 0:11:11.476 are going to want to eat, but also something that 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:15.756 works in our production system out here in Washington and 0:11:16.076 --> 0:11:21.316 works for that supply Chaine. So it's particularly in terms 0:11:21.356 --> 0:11:25.636 of how the fruit stores in refrigeration, so it maintains 0:11:25.636 --> 0:11:29.076 its quality through storage, gives you a great eating experience 0:11:29.076 --> 0:11:29.756 all year round. 0:11:30.676 --> 0:11:33.396 Is there a particular apple that you feel like Sunflair 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:35.636 is gonna eat its lunch if I might? 0:11:36.956 --> 0:11:45.196 No, you know, no, I can't. No, really it's never 0:11:45.756 --> 0:11:49.356 a case of targeting a specific apple, but what often 0:11:49.396 --> 0:11:53.116 happens is that there will be the quality attributes of 0:11:53.156 --> 0:11:57.036 that apple. So consumers of a particular apple might find 0:11:57.316 --> 0:12:01.396 that they like the sunflair better than other things. Sure, 0:12:01.716 --> 0:12:05.676 but also it has to fit in with how the 0:12:05.716 --> 0:12:09.836 grower produces fruit, and usually that is when the fruit harvests. 0:12:10.356 --> 0:12:14.036 So the grower has a portfolio varieties that harvest at 0:12:14.036 --> 0:12:17.396 different time points through the season so they can maintain 0:12:17.396 --> 0:12:21.316 a picking crew. So it might be that it sort 0:12:21.356 --> 0:12:25.996 of knocks something off that portfolio varieties at the grower. 0:12:26.036 --> 0:12:28.716 Already the back end, it's a back end thing as 0:12:28.756 --> 0:12:31.076 opposed to a sort of front end thing. Yeah, what 0:12:32.436 --> 0:12:36.036 you're talking about like all these different dimensions that you're 0:12:36.156 --> 0:12:39.076 you know, trying to optimize more or less, and obviously 0:12:39.076 --> 0:12:42.596 there's a million trade offs. But in just list off 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:46.436 some of the dimensions, like whatever they are, crispiness, when 0:12:46.436 --> 0:12:50.236 they bloom, how they store whatever, It is just a list. 0:12:50.396 --> 0:12:56.596 Right, So from a quality perspective, firmness, cristness, juiciness, sweetness, tartness. 0:12:57.276 --> 0:13:00.236 On top of that, you have aroma that's just eating. 0:13:00.556 --> 0:13:06.916 So then appearance, you've got size, shape, color, color combinations, 0:13:06.956 --> 0:13:12.076 skin finish. Then, yeah, as far as the tree is concerned, 0:13:13.276 --> 0:13:17.236 when it blooms, how much fruit does it set each cluster? 0:13:17.436 --> 0:13:21.596 Does it drop fruit? How easy is the fruit to 0:13:21.676 --> 0:13:26.156 pick some apples and more bizarrely more difficult to harvest 0:13:26.196 --> 0:13:31.516 than others. And then how well does it store? So 0:13:31.756 --> 0:13:35.156 does the fruit rot? Does the fruit have disorders that 0:13:35.236 --> 0:13:38.436 appear in cold storage or along the supply chain. There 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:41.396 can be so many different things that impact it. 0:13:42.316 --> 0:13:43.996 So tell me the story of the sunflair. 0:13:44.276 --> 0:13:48.476 Yeah, so it started back in nineteen ninety eight with 0:13:48.796 --> 0:13:52.876 a cross combination between the honey crisp and the crips pink. 0:13:53.276 --> 0:13:57.276 They were its two parents. So that means pollen from 0:13:57.316 --> 0:14:01.516 crips pink dusting onto flowers of honey crisp. Okay, then 0:14:01.956 --> 0:14:06.116 that's spring nineteen ninety eight, right, and then waiting for 0:14:06.236 --> 0:14:09.876 that honey crisp tree to produce its fruit, harvesting that, 0:14:10.196 --> 0:14:11.316 collecting all the seeds. 0:14:11.716 --> 0:14:16.516 And let me ask a question. Is every honey crisp 0:14:17.436 --> 0:14:20.436 different than every other honey crisp or they genetically uniform? 0:14:21.196 --> 0:14:23.636 Yeah, they're genetically uniform, Okay. 0:14:23.836 --> 0:14:27.676 But presumably every cross of them is going to be 0:14:27.756 --> 0:14:29.676 different right, just the way if you had two human 0:14:29.716 --> 0:14:33.036 beings and they had a thousand children, every child would 0:14:33.076 --> 0:14:34.316 be different. Is that correct? 0:14:34.876 --> 0:14:37.436 Absolutely? Yes, yeah, yeah. 0:14:37.516 --> 0:14:40.716 So when you're crossing them, are you just doing it 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:43.996 like a bee or is it are you picking particular 0:14:44.076 --> 0:14:46.156 genes from each parent that you want or you're just 0:14:46.196 --> 0:14:49.076 saying make a baby trees. 0:14:51.316 --> 0:14:54.756 It would be fantastic if we were, if our science 0:14:54.876 --> 0:14:58.436 was precise enough to say this is my one apple 0:14:58.636 --> 0:15:03.196 target and I want it to be exactly this. We 0:15:03.276 --> 0:15:06.436 are not at that point in terms of the science 0:15:06.756 --> 0:15:08.276 behind apple breeding. 0:15:08.636 --> 0:15:11.116 I mean, can you sort of map certain genes to 0:15:11.156 --> 0:15:12.156 certain traits? 0:15:12.596 --> 0:15:15.716 Yes, yeah, and we have. I mean, we have certainly 0:15:15.756 --> 0:15:18.236 got more of an idea of the apple genome than 0:15:18.716 --> 0:15:22.316 you know, twenty thirty years ago. Things have progressed and 0:15:22.796 --> 0:15:27.196 there are ways that we can select for certain combinations 0:15:27.236 --> 0:15:31.116 of those genes, but we just do not know enough 0:15:31.436 --> 0:15:37.516 about which of those genes we really want to have 0:15:37.636 --> 0:15:38.476 in each combination. 0:15:38.676 --> 0:15:40.476 Well, and you could imagine. I mean, one of the 0:15:40.516 --> 0:15:46.276 interesting things in you know, following the arc of the 0:15:46.396 --> 0:15:49.436 understanding of the human genome is how much is polygenic 0:15:49.556 --> 0:15:51.916 and how complex it is. And it's not like one 0:15:51.956 --> 0:15:54.196 gene goes to one trait, right, you could imagine one 0:15:54.236 --> 0:15:57.396 gene having many different effects and those effects being different 0:15:58.356 --> 0:16:00.876 with respect to other changing genes. I mean, is that 0:16:00.916 --> 0:16:02.956 what you are finding for apples as well? 0:16:03.196 --> 0:16:07.436 Yeah? Absolutely, And in fact, there's so much similarity between 0:16:07.876 --> 0:16:11.036 the sort of the diversity of human genetics and apple 0:16:11.876 --> 0:16:14.836 it's it's a little bizarre we often use humans. 0:16:15.276 --> 0:16:16.956 What percent are we apple? 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:17.236 Like? 0:16:17.316 --> 0:16:19.396 What percent of the apple? 0:16:21.556 --> 0:16:22.956 Oh that I really don't know. 0:16:24.236 --> 0:16:26.556 I bet it's a lot, right, I bet it's a lot. 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:29.836 Probably probably, you know. I think you're right. There's an 0:16:29.836 --> 0:16:32.916 awful lot of the traits that we were interested in 0:16:32.956 --> 0:16:37.996 that are apologenic, and so the single genes we've we've 0:16:38.036 --> 0:16:40.596 sort of locked in quite a lot. Now we understand 0:16:40.596 --> 0:16:44.676 more about some of those, but of course the things 0:16:44.676 --> 0:16:47.436 that we're very interested in tend to be pologenic and 0:16:47.516 --> 0:16:51.356 therefore much more difficult to kind of play around with 0:16:51.556 --> 0:16:55.036 and really make a fast progress. 0:16:55.116 --> 0:16:57.996 So you're still like Gregor Mendel, just take this one trio, 0:16:58.036 --> 0:17:04.236 this other tree and see what happens. We'll be back 0:17:04.356 --> 0:17:17.876 in just a minute. So, okay, so it's nineteen ninety eight. 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:20.036 I know you weren't there yet so your predecessor is 0:17:20.036 --> 0:17:23.116 breeding crispink and honey crisp, which at that level, it's like, sure, 0:17:23.156 --> 0:17:26.996 those are two good apples, and are they doing just 0:17:27.036 --> 0:17:30.076 to order of magnitude thousands of those trees and each 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:32.996 one is different or hundreds or tens of thousands, Like 0:17:33.036 --> 0:17:36.396 how many actual trees are they growing that are that cross? 0:17:37.236 --> 0:17:40.436 Yeah, I mean that that depends. You know, usually it's 0:17:40.476 --> 0:17:45.676 somewhere somewhere in the around one thousand, five hundred to 0:17:45.716 --> 0:17:48.756 one thousand, sometimes two thousand, usually not more than that. 0:17:49.156 --> 0:17:52.516 Okay, so you get a thousand ish trees and then 0:17:52.516 --> 0:17:56.076 you gotta wait for them to grow up and make apples, 0:17:56.276 --> 0:18:02.956 very old fashioned, very physical analog. Yeah, yeah, how long 0:18:02.996 --> 0:18:03.476 does that take? 0:18:04.836 --> 0:18:08.276 Somewhere around about six years five six years before we 0:18:08.316 --> 0:18:09.676 start to see free. 0:18:09.476 --> 0:18:12.436 So then in whatever, the early two thousands, you get 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:15.756 the first apples coming off of this thousand or so 0:18:18.356 --> 0:18:21.876 crips pink plus honeycrisp trees and then. 0:18:21.756 --> 0:18:26.596 What so then that that's where the breeder, you know, 0:18:26.716 --> 0:18:29.956 our job is to evaluate and select. So that is 0:18:29.996 --> 0:18:32.676 a case of just walking up and down those seedling rows, 0:18:33.796 --> 0:18:37.476 seeing what catches your eye from an appearance perspective, and 0:18:37.516 --> 0:18:40.076 then if it looks like it's ready to eat, pick 0:18:40.116 --> 0:18:41.316 an apple and take a bite. 0:18:41.396 --> 0:18:45.956 So it's really that, No, you're actually walking through the 0:18:45.996 --> 0:18:47.956 trees picking an apple and taking a BikeE. 0:18:47.836 --> 0:18:51.316 Yeah, and then spitting yeah. 0:18:51.396 --> 0:19:00.116 Yeah. And you like have some standardized criteria, you have. 0:19:00.116 --> 0:19:02.316 A palette that's been trained for many years. 0:19:02.556 --> 0:19:04.596 It's just I like it or I don't like it. 0:19:04.636 --> 0:19:08.196 Is it really that it's having that understanding of what 0:19:08.436 --> 0:19:11.556 is partently acceptable and what is not. 0:19:12.236 --> 0:19:14.116 Then what happens how many yeses you get out of 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:18.156 that thousand little trees totally depends. 0:19:18.196 --> 0:19:20.396 It depends on what the parents are, you know, and 0:19:20.676 --> 0:19:23.396 I don't know the numbers specifically for that cross combination. 0:19:24.436 --> 0:19:28.396 But once we've if something is a yes, then it's 0:19:28.436 --> 0:19:30.636 a case of just harvesting a sample of that fruit, 0:19:30.716 --> 0:19:33.276 bringing it back in, putting it in the cold store 0:19:33.316 --> 0:19:36.356 for a couple of months, and then evaluating it. Because 0:19:36.396 --> 0:19:40.156 if it doesn't hold up for two months in a 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:43.596 refrigerated cooler, then it's not going to make it as 0:19:43.636 --> 0:19:45.276 far as this industry is concerned. 0:19:45.716 --> 0:19:50.836 So you do yourr does its store test, and then what. 0:19:51.796 --> 0:19:54.636 Well, and then you know, we want to look at 0:19:54.676 --> 0:19:57.716 it again the following year to see if it's because 0:19:57.756 --> 0:20:02.196 you know, season to season things vary. So one we 0:20:02.356 --> 0:20:04.756 decide that it is, you know, it's maybe had a 0:20:04.796 --> 0:20:08.156 couple of years of good fruit quality on that individual 0:20:08.196 --> 0:20:11.756 seedling tree, then we propagate more trees, make a whole 0:20:11.796 --> 0:20:13.876 new tree that is a clonal copy, and we can 0:20:13.916 --> 0:20:16.276 do that for as many buds as there are in 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:18.676 the tree, and often you know what we do. Why 0:20:18.716 --> 0:20:21.436 it takes a long time is because we are looking 0:20:21.636 --> 0:20:27.556 for something that is robust. Ye, and without having multiple 0:20:27.716 --> 0:20:31.036 years worth of evaluation of fruit off that tree, you 0:20:31.076 --> 0:20:34.556 can't really make a sort of a call on it 0:20:34.596 --> 0:20:37.996 to say, yeah, I'm confident that this one is robust 0:20:38.116 --> 0:20:39.996 enough to be able to move forward. 0:20:40.196 --> 0:20:42.036 So it has to be robust, not just in the 0:20:42.076 --> 0:20:45.236 sense of you can put the apples in the fridge 0:20:45.236 --> 0:20:47.236 for a couple months, whatever, in storage for a couple months. 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:48.716 It has to be robust in the sense that the 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:53.276 tree can deal with some variance in terms of weather 0:20:53.436 --> 0:20:55.156 and pests and whatever. 0:20:56.356 --> 0:21:00.396 Right, yeah, And we have to have enough copies of 0:21:00.436 --> 0:21:04.116 the tree to produce bins worth of fruit, not just 0:21:04.236 --> 0:21:07.356 our single tree, you know, small sample of fruit, because 0:21:07.396 --> 0:21:11.476 we want to do a lot more refrigeration storage tests. 0:21:11.476 --> 0:21:14.036 We want to be able to see does that fruit 0:21:14.036 --> 0:21:16.796 store for six months? Will it store for nine months? 0:21:17.476 --> 0:21:21.596 And of course every time you evaluate the fruit it's destructive. 0:21:21.796 --> 0:21:24.916 You know, you can't you can't test the same apple 0:21:25.676 --> 0:21:27.516 numerous times because you've cut it up. 0:21:29.636 --> 0:21:31.516 How long does an apple got a store to be 0:21:31.516 --> 0:21:32.476 commercially viable? 0:21:33.876 --> 0:21:37.876 What I look for is something that would be storable. 0:21:37.996 --> 0:21:41.316 It will store well for the full year, so that 0:21:41.716 --> 0:21:44.636 it will have a space on the supermarket shelf for 0:21:44.676 --> 0:21:48.756 twelve months and consumers can just continue to buy it 0:21:48.836 --> 0:21:50.516 all year round. 0:21:50.356 --> 0:21:52.756 Like a gallon of milk. You just walk in and 0:21:52.796 --> 0:21:56.076 it's there, and it's always the same. Yeah, well, you know, I. 0:21:55.996 --> 0:22:00.076 Mean, this is what always amazes me is that our 0:22:00.276 --> 0:22:05.236 consumers really have this sort of detachment from from the 0:22:05.276 --> 0:22:08.716 production of their food. They're not necessarily understanding that our 0:22:08.756 --> 0:22:11.756 apples are only harvested once a year that they want 0:22:11.796 --> 0:22:13.036 to eat them for twelve months. 0:22:14.116 --> 0:22:19.076 So we're testing them out and amazingly you get to 0:22:19.076 --> 0:22:21.036 the point where you say, can we store it for 0:22:21.076 --> 0:22:22.716 a year, And the answer is yes. 0:22:23.956 --> 0:22:26.476 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 0:22:27.276 --> 0:22:29.076 So there was a story in the New York Times 0:22:29.116 --> 0:22:32.276 about this apple that talked about it as sort of 0:22:32.356 --> 0:22:36.356 optimized for climate change or you know, adapted to work 0:22:36.516 --> 0:22:40.876 better in a warmer climate in Washington. Is that part 0:22:40.876 --> 0:22:42.156 of the calculus for this apple? 0:22:43.236 --> 0:22:47.476 It certainly is bread and selected for the Washington climate. 0:22:48.476 --> 0:22:51.276 It is bread and selected for the Washington climate now, 0:22:51.756 --> 0:22:55.716 which in itself is quite a different production climate to 0:22:56.116 --> 0:22:58.196 everywhere else that grows apples in the world. 0:22:58.396 --> 0:23:00.556 How has the climate changed the way the apple business 0:23:00.556 --> 0:23:02.636 in Washington works over the past several decades. 0:23:05.116 --> 0:23:12.156 I think that we're seeing we're seeing more impact of 0:23:12.556 --> 0:23:16.796 extreme heat in the summer. So we're definitely apples get sunburn. 0:23:17.396 --> 0:23:22.876 Does the sunflair handle heat better than older varieties? 0:23:23.756 --> 0:23:27.116 It's well. One thing that we would one thing that 0:23:27.156 --> 0:23:30.236 we measure very specifically is just how much of the 0:23:30.276 --> 0:23:33.836 fruit from the orchard would get through the supply chain 0:23:33.916 --> 0:23:37.316 to the hands of the consumer. And it will. It's 0:23:37.396 --> 0:23:41.036 called its pack out or its grade out, and that yeah, 0:23:41.156 --> 0:23:46.316 it certainly has got a very it's leaving very little 0:23:46.356 --> 0:23:50.196 fruit in the orchard. That fails for varying different things, 0:23:50.236 --> 0:23:51.756 sunburn being one of those. 0:23:52.036 --> 0:23:56.236 Okay, what's the next apple you're going to make? 0:23:56.996 --> 0:24:00.996 Oh after Sunflair? I am not one hundred percent sure. 0:24:01.556 --> 0:24:03.476 I know what I would like it to be, but 0:24:03.556 --> 0:24:06.556 I'm not sure whether or not it would have what 0:24:06.596 --> 0:24:09.316