1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:33,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is What's Your Problem. 2 00:00:33,676 --> 00:00:37,236 Speaker 1: My guest today is Kate Evans. Kate is a professor 3 00:00:37,316 --> 00:00:41,316 Speaker 1: in the Department of Horticulture at Washington State University, and 4 00:00:41,356 --> 00:00:44,316 Speaker 1: her problem is this, how do you invent a new 5 00:00:44,396 --> 00:00:47,076 Speaker 1: kind of apple? How do you invent an apple that 6 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:51,676 Speaker 1: grows reliably, that stores well, that can handle warming temperatures, 7 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:55,636 Speaker 1: and that, by the way, also taste delicious and looks pretty. 8 00:00:55,876 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 1: Sitting there on the shelf at the grocery store with 9 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:01,916 Speaker 1: her team, Kate has in fact invented a new kind 10 00:01:01,916 --> 00:01:05,396 Speaker 1: of apple. It's called the Sunflair and it is coming 11 00:01:05,436 --> 00:01:08,556 Speaker 1: relatively soon to a store near you. This is the 12 00:01:08,636 --> 00:01:12,476 Speaker 1: second apple she helped to invent in Washington. The first 13 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: was the ambitiously named Cosmic Crisp Apple, which went on 14 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:20,636 Speaker 1: sale in twenty nineteen. And you Know What's Your Problem 15 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:25,636 Speaker 1: is basically a show about innovation, about technological innovation. And 16 00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:28,716 Speaker 1: I talk to people figuring out new ways to generate 17 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:32,036 Speaker 1: energy and treat disease and use AI and do all 18 00:01:32,076 --> 00:01:34,276 Speaker 1: these classic things that we think of when we think 19 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:39,036 Speaker 1: of innovation and technology. But innovation is not just in 20 00:01:39,076 --> 00:01:42,476 Speaker 1: these kinds of obvious tech driven things. It is in 21 00:01:42,796 --> 00:01:46,876 Speaker 1: more or less everything, and it's delightful and illuminating to 22 00:01:46,956 --> 00:01:51,036 Speaker 1: learn about how innovation works with something as ubiquitous and 23 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 1: old fashioned as an apple, a piece of fruit. As 24 00:01:55,156 --> 00:01:58,196 Speaker 1: it happens. Over the past several decades, there has, in 25 00:01:58,236 --> 00:02:01,716 Speaker 1: fact been an incredible amount of innovation in apples, and 26 00:02:02,396 --> 00:02:04,876 Speaker 1: if you're an apple leader of a certain age, like 27 00:02:04,916 --> 00:02:08,876 Speaker 1: I am, you have observed this innovation. And so to start, 28 00:02:09,156 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 1: asked Kate, why the apples you get at the grocery 29 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:14,596 Speaker 1: store are so much better now than they were when 30 00:02:14,636 --> 00:02:18,436 Speaker 1: I was a child. So I want to actually start 31 00:02:18,956 --> 00:02:21,436 Speaker 1: before the stuff you've worked on, just for a minute, 32 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:25,236 Speaker 1: just to get the context, because I'm old enough to 33 00:02:25,276 --> 00:02:29,596 Speaker 1: remember when there were three kinds of apples, at least 34 00:02:30,076 --> 00:02:32,516 Speaker 1: in the grocery store in the suburbs of San Diego 35 00:02:32,516 --> 00:02:36,276 Speaker 1: where I grew up. There were Red Delicious, Golden Delicious, 36 00:02:36,316 --> 00:02:39,476 Speaker 1: and Granny Smith. And I didn't like any of them. 37 00:02:40,276 --> 00:02:43,276 Speaker 1: Granny Smith were crispy but too sour, at least for 38 00:02:43,316 --> 00:02:45,956 Speaker 1: a kid to tart. And then Red Delicious and Golden 39 00:02:45,996 --> 00:02:50,356 Speaker 1: Delicious were not delicious. They were bad. They're really sorry 40 00:02:50,396 --> 00:02:53,716 Speaker 1: Red Delicious, but it's true today there's a million kinds 41 00:02:53,716 --> 00:02:57,356 Speaker 1: of apples and a lot of them are delicious. What changed. 42 00:02:58,676 --> 00:03:02,116 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, first of all, I have to ask 43 00:03:02,156 --> 00:03:03,356 Speaker 2: it depends how old you are. 44 00:03:04,036 --> 00:03:07,836 Speaker 1: Sorry, I'm fifty. I mean in my early fifties, in 45 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:09,916 Speaker 1: my early fifties, fair question. 46 00:03:12,516 --> 00:03:15,916 Speaker 2: So a couple of things, you know, as far as 47 00:03:16,196 --> 00:03:21,156 Speaker 2: the food supply chain management is concerned, that's one thing. 48 00:03:21,276 --> 00:03:26,476 Speaker 2: So refrigeration technology and being able to better store fruit 49 00:03:26,676 --> 00:03:29,956 Speaker 2: so that the consumer gets a better eating quality. I'd 50 00:03:30,076 --> 00:03:33,436 Speaker 2: argue that you probably would get a better quality piece 51 00:03:33,476 --> 00:03:36,196 Speaker 2: of red Delicious, gold and Delicious and Granny Smith these 52 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:40,156 Speaker 2: days as well. Yes, But from a plant breeder perspective, 53 00:03:40,196 --> 00:03:42,876 Speaker 2: which is obviously my whole deal close to my heart, 54 00:03:43,876 --> 00:03:48,836 Speaker 2: we plant breeders have done our thing, and yeah, we've 55 00:03:48,876 --> 00:03:53,116 Speaker 2: bred and released a whole load of new, improved varieties. 56 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:56,556 Speaker 1: I mean that's the fact. But like, why did it happen? 57 00:03:56,676 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: Like was there a breakout moment? Was there one apple 58 00:03:59,636 --> 00:04:01,956 Speaker 1: where everybody's like, oh wow, we could make lots of 59 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:04,756 Speaker 1: different apples, or like, what happened? Why did it happen 60 00:04:04,836 --> 00:04:05,396 Speaker 1: when it did? 61 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:10,636 Speaker 2: I think in the US it happened with a shift 62 00:04:10,476 --> 00:04:17,756 Speaker 2: in technologies of production And what really changed a lot 63 00:04:17,796 --> 00:04:22,556 Speaker 2: of US production was bringing in dwarfing rootstocks for apple, 64 00:04:22,916 --> 00:04:25,556 Speaker 2: which means that you could grow a lower vigo tree. 65 00:04:26,436 --> 00:04:29,116 Speaker 2: That meant that there were a lot of orchidice, particularly 66 00:04:29,196 --> 00:04:31,796 Speaker 2: over here in Washington, where the bulk of the production 67 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:35,036 Speaker 2: in the US comes from a lot of orchardice, who 68 00:04:35,036 --> 00:04:37,396 Speaker 2: were interested in trying a few different varieties. 69 00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:40,596 Speaker 1: The dwarf thing. Does it lower the risk for the grower? 70 00:04:40,716 --> 00:04:42,196 Speaker 1: Is that why it's meaningful? It's like, well, you can 71 00:04:42,276 --> 00:04:43,916 Speaker 1: just try a little one and it's not so risky. 72 00:04:43,916 --> 00:04:45,276 Speaker 1: You're like, why is that meaningful? 73 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:49,356 Speaker 2: Good question. A new variety means you've got to establish 74 00:04:49,356 --> 00:04:52,276 Speaker 2: a new orchard block. For a grower to invest and 75 00:04:52,356 --> 00:04:57,916 Speaker 2: plant a new block, that's a pretty big investment. And 76 00:04:58,036 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 2: so with the onset of dwarfing rootstocks, there was a change. 77 00:05:02,036 --> 00:05:05,756 Speaker 2: Growers were moving forward and establishing new blocks and there's 78 00:05:05,796 --> 00:05:08,436 Speaker 2: that time point, well why not try a new variety 79 00:05:08,476 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 2: as well? 80 00:05:09,236 --> 00:05:12,436 Speaker 1: Huh. The one for me that was the big shift 81 00:05:12,636 --> 00:05:14,916 Speaker 1: was the Fuji. That was the first time where I 82 00:05:14,956 --> 00:05:17,556 Speaker 1: was like, oh, there's a kind of apple that I 83 00:05:17,676 --> 00:05:21,716 Speaker 1: love and it's reliable, right, Like part of the thing 84 00:05:21,756 --> 00:05:24,876 Speaker 1: with Red Delicious, it's the same problem I have with 85 00:05:25,036 --> 00:05:27,636 Speaker 1: nectarines and peaches. You just don't know if it's going 86 00:05:27,676 --> 00:05:30,116 Speaker 1: to be good. And like a fuji, as long as 87 00:05:30,156 --> 00:05:33,116 Speaker 1: it's not like bruised, it's pretty much always good and 88 00:05:33,156 --> 00:05:36,756 Speaker 1: it always tastes the same and it's always crispy. 89 00:05:37,516 --> 00:05:40,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that I think that's one of 90 00:05:40,196 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 2: the I'm glad you brought that up, really, because that's 91 00:05:42,636 --> 00:05:45,516 Speaker 2: one of the focuses that I have in my program 92 00:05:45,596 --> 00:05:50,076 Speaker 2: is to have a consistent eating quality of new varieties 93 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 2: that come through. And that means we do a massive 94 00:05:53,116 --> 00:05:56,436 Speaker 2: amount of evaluation at different storage points through the season, 95 00:05:56,676 --> 00:05:58,996 Speaker 2: so that piece of fruit for you as a consumer, 96 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:01,396 Speaker 2: tastes great whenever you buy it. 97 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:04,636 Speaker 1: Right, So the qualities you need in an apple are 98 00:06:04,676 --> 00:06:11,796 Speaker 1: not just it's delicious when you pick it. Are the 99 00:06:11,956 --> 00:06:14,876 Speaker 1: apples that are just like incredible when you pick them, 100 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:17,516 Speaker 1: but they don't ship, they don't store, and so I'm 101 00:06:17,516 --> 00:06:19,636 Speaker 1: never going to taste one unless they happen to randomly 102 00:06:19,636 --> 00:06:21,556 Speaker 1: walk by some tree. 103 00:06:21,756 --> 00:06:24,796 Speaker 2: Yes, those are the ones that break our hearts as 104 00:06:25,476 --> 00:06:29,156 Speaker 2: because we you know, they're the selections that they're out 105 00:06:29,196 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 2: there as seeding apples and they're phenomenal and you think, 106 00:06:33,436 --> 00:06:36,676 Speaker 2: oh my goodness, this just tastes wonderful, But two weeks later. 107 00:06:37,756 --> 00:06:42,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's talk about the Sunflair TM apple. First 108 00:06:42,996 --> 00:06:44,556 Speaker 1: of all, I want to mention that when you wrote 109 00:06:44,556 --> 00:06:46,156 Speaker 1: to us about it, we had some questions and you 110 00:06:46,156 --> 00:06:49,116 Speaker 1: wrote back to Gabriella, producer of the show, you put 111 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:53,636 Speaker 1: the little TM above the word Sunflair every time. So 112 00:06:53,676 --> 00:06:56,956 Speaker 1: I'm sure the lawyers there will be will be happy 113 00:06:56,996 --> 00:07:02,236 Speaker 1: to hear that. Why do you put the little TM 114 00:07:02,276 --> 00:07:03,916 Speaker 1: every time you write the word sunflair? 115 00:07:04,836 --> 00:07:08,596 Speaker 2: Well, because the name is a brand name. Yeah, and 116 00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:13,596 Speaker 2: most modern apples have a brand name associated with them. 117 00:07:13,716 --> 00:07:17,796 Speaker 2: So like any piece of like any invention, I mean, 118 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,076 Speaker 2: a new apple variety is an invention. We patent it 119 00:07:21,316 --> 00:07:25,276 Speaker 2: in this country, but a patent only has a certain 120 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:30,596 Speaker 2: amount of life, and to establish a new apple variety 121 00:07:30,716 --> 00:07:34,156 Speaker 2: and get it out into production and for it to 122 00:07:34,236 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 2: re making an impact in production takes most of that 123 00:07:38,036 --> 00:07:41,276 Speaker 2: patent life. And so if you want to kind of 124 00:07:41,316 --> 00:07:44,436 Speaker 2: reap any benefits from the intellectual property and have any 125 00:07:44,476 --> 00:07:48,916 Speaker 2: way of controlling where that apple has grown, how it's grown, 126 00:07:48,996 --> 00:07:54,396 Speaker 2: how it's marketed, etc. Establishing a trademark brand name is 127 00:07:54,436 --> 00:07:59,076 Speaker 2: really important because that's the thing that you can keep indefinitely. 128 00:07:59,356 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 1: Yes, A patent is what twenty years at this point, yes, 129 00:08:04,756 --> 00:08:07,356 Speaker 1: ish yeah, but a trademark is forever. 130 00:08:08,116 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 2: As long as we use it. 131 00:08:09,596 --> 00:08:11,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, as long as that's why you're putting the little 132 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:15,876 Speaker 1: TM on it, right right. Tell me about the Sunflair Apple. 133 00:08:15,956 --> 00:08:16,476 Speaker 1: What's it like? 134 00:08:17,276 --> 00:08:22,956 Speaker 2: So it is a unique yellow with a pink blush 135 00:08:23,196 --> 00:08:26,396 Speaker 2: appearance apple. So I think as a consumer you'd be 136 00:08:26,436 --> 00:08:28,836 Speaker 2: able to see it and recognize it on the on 137 00:08:28,916 --> 00:08:31,516 Speaker 2: the shelf in the supermarket, which is important. 138 00:08:31,796 --> 00:08:34,836 Speaker 1: Interesting, it's like it's like a package. It's the packaging. 139 00:08:35,516 --> 00:08:38,276 Speaker 2: Well it is, yeah, because you know you want to 140 00:08:38,396 --> 00:08:40,716 Speaker 2: know that's the one I like, and that's the one 141 00:08:40,756 --> 00:08:44,516 Speaker 2: I'm going back to buy it again, right. And then 142 00:08:44,516 --> 00:08:50,676 Speaker 2: it has a sweet teart balance with a fairly firm 143 00:08:50,876 --> 00:08:57,276 Speaker 2: crisp texture, so a firmer texture than cosmic crisp, but 144 00:08:57,436 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 2: still crisp. 145 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 1: Okay is firm, not crisp is firm, different than crisp. 146 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 1: I don't think I have the language to distinguish. 147 00:09:05,956 --> 00:09:12,876 Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm not a sensory scientist. Yeah. I think 148 00:09:12,916 --> 00:09:15,316 Speaker 2: there is something to do with the bite and the 149 00:09:15,876 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 2: way that the flesh sounds awful. The way the flesh 150 00:09:18,956 --> 00:09:22,076 Speaker 2: ruptures when you sink your teeth into it is a 151 00:09:22,076 --> 00:09:25,556 Speaker 2: crisp thing, and then what is ferm, and then firm 152 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:28,756 Speaker 2: is how you chew it through your molars, And that's. 153 00:09:28,556 --> 00:09:29,236 Speaker 1: Sort of interesting. 154 00:09:29,316 --> 00:09:31,476 Speaker 2: The work that you're putting into something. 155 00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:33,836 Speaker 1: The firmer it is, like, the more you gotta chew 156 00:09:33,956 --> 00:09:37,196 Speaker 1: curt Yes, okay, interesting, Okay, tell me more of what 157 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:39,316 Speaker 1: it's like. I mean, I guess it's a cross between 158 00:09:39,396 --> 00:09:42,516 Speaker 1: a crisp pink and a honey crisp. So like I've 159 00:09:42,556 --> 00:09:43,836 Speaker 1: eaten both of those apples. 160 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:48,396 Speaker 2: Well, I would say that honey crisp tends to you 161 00:09:48,556 --> 00:09:52,596 Speaker 2: taste it as being sweeter and less tart. Crips pink 162 00:09:52,676 --> 00:09:56,116 Speaker 2: you probably have more tart, you know when you're tasting that. 163 00:09:56,756 --> 00:10:00,516 Speaker 2: Some flare is somewhere between the two. And also in 164 00:10:00,596 --> 00:10:03,876 Speaker 2: terms of texture, so honey crisp is an ultra crisp, 165 00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:07,676 Speaker 2: but not as ferm. It's a slightly softer apple in 166 00:10:07,756 --> 00:10:12,276 Speaker 2: terms of firmness, whereas crips pink is less crisp but firmer, 167 00:10:12,516 --> 00:10:16,636 Speaker 2: and so sunfloir actually sits somewhere in the middle. I 168 00:10:16,636 --> 00:10:20,356 Speaker 2: would say it probably is a little more like crips 169 00:10:20,396 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 2: pink than like honey crisp. 170 00:10:22,076 --> 00:10:28,196 Speaker 1: Okay, so the Sunflair is just coming out now, right, correct? 171 00:10:28,316 --> 00:10:29,116 Speaker 2: Yes? Yeah? 172 00:10:29,636 --> 00:10:31,116 Speaker 1: When am I going to be able to eat one? 173 00:10:31,876 --> 00:10:34,316 Speaker 2: Probably not until twenty twenty nine. 174 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So that means the trees are out there 175 00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:38,956 Speaker 1: growing in the orchards. 176 00:10:39,556 --> 00:10:42,596 Speaker 2: The first trees were planted I think last week commanded. 177 00:10:42,676 --> 00:10:45,756 Speaker 1: Okay, congratulations, have us to be a very exciting moment free, 178 00:10:45,956 --> 00:10:46,596 Speaker 1: Yeah it is. 179 00:10:46,716 --> 00:10:46,916 Speaker 2: Yeah. 180 00:10:48,036 --> 00:10:51,116 Speaker 1: So what was the problem you were setting out to 181 00:10:51,196 --> 00:10:54,916 Speaker 1: solve when you set out to create the Sunflair. 182 00:10:55,676 --> 00:11:00,356 Speaker 2: The main thing that we focus on is not so 183 00:11:00,436 --> 00:11:04,396 Speaker 2: much a particular problem, but it is producing a variety 184 00:11:04,516 --> 00:11:09,476 Speaker 2: that eats fabulously for a consumer, So something that consumers 185 00:11:09,516 --> 00:11:11,476 Speaker 2: are going to want to eat, but also something that 186 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:15,756 Speaker 2: works in our production system out here in Washington and 187 00:11:16,076 --> 00:11:21,316 Speaker 2: works for that supply Chaine. So it's particularly in terms 188 00:11:21,356 --> 00:11:25,636 Speaker 2: of how the fruit stores in refrigeration, so it maintains 189 00:11:25,636 --> 00:11:29,076 Speaker 2: its quality through storage, gives you a great eating experience 190 00:11:29,076 --> 00:11:29,756 Speaker 2: all year round. 191 00:11:30,676 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: Is there a particular apple that you feel like Sunflair 192 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:35,636 Speaker 1: is gonna eat its lunch if I might? 193 00:11:36,956 --> 00:11:45,196 Speaker 2: No, you know, no, I can't. No, really it's never 194 00:11:45,756 --> 00:11:49,356 Speaker 2: a case of targeting a specific apple, but what often 195 00:11:49,396 --> 00:11:53,116 Speaker 2: happens is that there will be the quality attributes of 196 00:11:53,156 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 2: that apple. So consumers of a particular apple might find 197 00:11:57,316 --> 00:12:01,396 Speaker 2: that they like the sunflair better than other things. Sure, 198 00:12:01,716 --> 00:12:05,676 Speaker 2: but also it has to fit in with how the 199 00:12:05,716 --> 00:12:09,836 Speaker 2: grower produces fruit, and usually that is when the fruit harvests. 200 00:12:10,356 --> 00:12:14,036 Speaker 2: So the grower has a portfolio varieties that harvest at 201 00:12:14,036 --> 00:12:17,396 Speaker 2: different time points through the season so they can maintain 202 00:12:17,396 --> 00:12:21,316 Speaker 2: a picking crew. So it might be that it sort 203 00:12:21,356 --> 00:12:25,996 Speaker 2: of knocks something off that portfolio varieties at the grower. 204 00:12:26,036 --> 00:12:28,716 Speaker 1: Already the back end, it's a back end thing as 205 00:12:28,756 --> 00:12:31,076 Speaker 1: opposed to a sort of front end thing. Yeah, what 206 00:12:32,436 --> 00:12:36,036 Speaker 1: you're talking about like all these different dimensions that you're 207 00:12:36,156 --> 00:12:39,076 Speaker 1: you know, trying to optimize more or less, and obviously 208 00:12:39,076 --> 00:12:42,596 Speaker 1: there's a million trade offs. But in just list off 209 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 1: some of the dimensions, like whatever they are, crispiness, when 210 00:12:46,436 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 1: they bloom, how they store whatever, It is just a list. 211 00:12:50,396 --> 00:12:56,596 Speaker 2: Right, So from a quality perspective, firmness, cristness, juiciness, sweetness, tartness. 212 00:12:57,276 --> 00:13:00,236 Speaker 2: On top of that, you have aroma that's just eating. 213 00:13:00,556 --> 00:13:06,916 Speaker 2: So then appearance, you've got size, shape, color, color combinations, 214 00:13:06,956 --> 00:13:12,076 Speaker 2: skin finish. Then, yeah, as far as the tree is concerned, 215 00:13:13,276 --> 00:13:17,236 Speaker 2: when it blooms, how much fruit does it set each cluster? 216 00:13:17,436 --> 00:13:21,596 Speaker 2: Does it drop fruit? How easy is the fruit to 217 00:13:21,676 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 2: pick some apples and more bizarrely more difficult to harvest 218 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:31,516 Speaker 2: than others. And then how well does it store? So 219 00:13:31,756 --> 00:13:35,156 Speaker 2: does the fruit rot? Does the fruit have disorders that 220 00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:38,436 Speaker 2: appear in cold storage or along the supply chain. There 221 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:41,396 Speaker 2: can be so many different things that impact it. 222 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:43,996 Speaker 1: So tell me the story of the sunflair. 223 00:13:44,276 --> 00:13:48,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it started back in nineteen ninety eight with 224 00:13:48,796 --> 00:13:52,876 Speaker 2: a cross combination between the honey crisp and the crips pink. 225 00:13:53,276 --> 00:13:57,276 Speaker 2: They were its two parents. So that means pollen from 226 00:13:57,316 --> 00:14:01,516 Speaker 2: crips pink dusting onto flowers of honey crisp. Okay, then 227 00:14:01,956 --> 00:14:06,116 Speaker 2: that's spring nineteen ninety eight, right, and then waiting for 228 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:09,876 Speaker 2: that honey crisp tree to produce its fruit, harvesting that, 229 00:14:10,196 --> 00:14:11,316 Speaker 2: collecting all the seeds. 230 00:14:11,716 --> 00:14:16,516 Speaker 1: And let me ask a question. Is every honey crisp 231 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:20,436 Speaker 1: different than every other honey crisp or they genetically uniform? 232 00:14:21,196 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 2: Yeah, they're genetically uniform, Okay. 233 00:14:23,836 --> 00:14:27,676 Speaker 1: But presumably every cross of them is going to be 234 00:14:27,756 --> 00:14:29,676 Speaker 1: different right, just the way if you had two human 235 00:14:29,716 --> 00:14:33,036 Speaker 1: beings and they had a thousand children, every child would 236 00:14:33,076 --> 00:14:34,316 Speaker 1: be different. Is that correct? 237 00:14:34,876 --> 00:14:37,436 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yes, yeah, yeah. 238 00:14:37,516 --> 00:14:40,716 Speaker 1: So when you're crossing them, are you just doing it 239 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:43,996 Speaker 1: like a bee or is it are you picking particular 240 00:14:44,076 --> 00:14:46,156 Speaker 1: genes from each parent that you want or you're just 241 00:14:46,196 --> 00:14:49,076 Speaker 1: saying make a baby trees. 242 00:14:51,316 --> 00:14:54,756 Speaker 2: It would be fantastic if we were, if our science 243 00:14:54,876 --> 00:14:58,436 Speaker 2: was precise enough to say this is my one apple 244 00:14:58,636 --> 00:15:03,196 Speaker 2: target and I want it to be exactly this. We 245 00:15:03,276 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 2: are not at that point in terms of the science 246 00:15:06,756 --> 00:15:08,276 Speaker 2: behind apple breeding. 247 00:15:08,636 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 1: I mean, can you sort of map certain genes to 248 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:12,156 Speaker 1: certain traits? 249 00:15:12,596 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and we have. I mean, we have certainly 250 00:15:15,756 --> 00:15:18,236 Speaker 2: got more of an idea of the apple genome than 251 00:15:18,716 --> 00:15:22,316 Speaker 2: you know, twenty thirty years ago. Things have progressed and 252 00:15:22,796 --> 00:15:27,196 Speaker 2: there are ways that we can select for certain combinations 253 00:15:27,236 --> 00:15:31,116 Speaker 2: of those genes, but we just do not know enough 254 00:15:31,436 --> 00:15:37,516 Speaker 2: about which of those genes we really want to have 255 00:15:37,636 --> 00:15:38,476 Speaker 2: in each combination. 256 00:15:38,676 --> 00:15:40,476 Speaker 1: Well, and you could imagine. I mean, one of the 257 00:15:40,516 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 1: interesting things in you know, following the arc of the 258 00:15:46,396 --> 00:15:49,436 Speaker 1: understanding of the human genome is how much is polygenic 259 00:15:49,556 --> 00:15:51,916 Speaker 1: and how complex it is. And it's not like one 260 00:15:51,956 --> 00:15:54,196 Speaker 1: gene goes to one trait, right, you could imagine one 261 00:15:54,236 --> 00:15:57,396 Speaker 1: gene having many different effects and those effects being different 262 00:15:58,356 --> 00:16:00,876 Speaker 1: with respect to other changing genes. I mean, is that 263 00:16:00,916 --> 00:16:02,956 Speaker 1: what you are finding for apples as well? 264 00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:07,436 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, And in fact, there's so much similarity between 265 00:16:07,876 --> 00:16:11,036 Speaker 2: the sort of the diversity of human genetics and apple 266 00:16:11,876 --> 00:16:14,836 Speaker 2: it's it's a little bizarre we often use humans. 267 00:16:15,276 --> 00:16:16,956 Speaker 1: What percent are we apple? 268 00:16:17,156 --> 00:16:17,236 Speaker 2: Like? 269 00:16:17,316 --> 00:16:19,396 Speaker 1: What percent of the apple? 270 00:16:21,556 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 2: Oh that I really don't know. 271 00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:26,556 Speaker 1: I bet it's a lot, right, I bet it's a lot. 272 00:16:26,516 --> 00:16:29,836 Speaker 2: Probably probably, you know. I think you're right. There's an 273 00:16:29,836 --> 00:16:32,916 Speaker 2: awful lot of the traits that we were interested in 274 00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:37,996 Speaker 2: that are apologenic, and so the single genes we've we've 275 00:16:38,036 --> 00:16:40,596 Speaker 2: sort of locked in quite a lot. Now we understand 276 00:16:40,596 --> 00:16:44,676 Speaker 2: more about some of those, but of course the things 277 00:16:44,676 --> 00:16:47,436 Speaker 2: that we're very interested in tend to be pologenic and 278 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:51,356 Speaker 2: therefore much more difficult to kind of play around with 279 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:55,036 Speaker 2: and really make a fast progress. 280 00:16:55,116 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 1: So you're still like Gregor Mendel, just take this one trio, 281 00:16:58,036 --> 00:17:04,236 Speaker 1: this other tree and see what happens. We'll be back 282 00:17:04,356 --> 00:17:17,876 Speaker 1: in just a minute. So, okay, so it's nineteen ninety eight. 283 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:20,036 Speaker 1: I know you weren't there yet so your predecessor is 284 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:23,116 Speaker 1: breeding crispink and honey crisp, which at that level, it's like, sure, 285 00:17:23,156 --> 00:17:26,996 Speaker 1: those are two good apples, and are they doing just 286 00:17:27,036 --> 00:17:30,076 Speaker 1: to order of magnitude thousands of those trees and each 287 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:32,996 Speaker 1: one is different or hundreds or tens of thousands, Like 288 00:17:33,036 --> 00:17:36,396 Speaker 1: how many actual trees are they growing that are that cross? 289 00:17:37,236 --> 00:17:40,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that that depends. You know, usually it's 290 00:17:40,476 --> 00:17:45,676 Speaker 2: somewhere somewhere in the around one thousand, five hundred to 291 00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:48,756 Speaker 2: one thousand, sometimes two thousand, usually not more than that. 292 00:17:49,156 --> 00:17:52,516 Speaker 1: Okay, so you get a thousand ish trees and then 293 00:17:52,516 --> 00:17:56,076 Speaker 1: you gotta wait for them to grow up and make apples, 294 00:17:56,276 --> 00:18:02,956 Speaker 1: very old fashioned, very physical analog. Yeah, yeah, how long 295 00:18:02,996 --> 00:18:03,476 Speaker 1: does that take? 296 00:18:04,836 --> 00:18:08,276 Speaker 2: Somewhere around about six years five six years before we 297 00:18:08,316 --> 00:18:09,676 Speaker 2: start to see free. 298 00:18:09,476 --> 00:18:12,436 Speaker 1: So then in whatever, the early two thousands, you get 299 00:18:12,476 --> 00:18:15,756 Speaker 1: the first apples coming off of this thousand or so 300 00:18:18,356 --> 00:18:21,876 Speaker 1: crips pink plus honeycrisp trees and then. 301 00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:26,596 Speaker 2: What so then that that's where the breeder, you know, 302 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:29,956 Speaker 2: our job is to evaluate and select. So that is 303 00:18:29,996 --> 00:18:32,676 Speaker 2: a case of just walking up and down those seedling rows, 304 00:18:33,796 --> 00:18:37,476 Speaker 2: seeing what catches your eye from an appearance perspective, and 305 00:18:37,516 --> 00:18:40,076 Speaker 2: then if it looks like it's ready to eat, pick 306 00:18:40,116 --> 00:18:41,316 Speaker 2: an apple and take a bite. 307 00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:45,956 Speaker 1: So it's really that, No, you're actually walking through the 308 00:18:45,996 --> 00:18:47,956 Speaker 1: trees picking an apple and taking a BikeE. 309 00:18:47,836 --> 00:18:51,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then spitting yeah. 310 00:18:51,396 --> 00:19:00,116 Speaker 1: Yeah. And you like have some standardized criteria, you have. 311 00:19:00,116 --> 00:19:02,316 Speaker 2: A palette that's been trained for many years. 312 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:04,596 Speaker 1: It's just I like it or I don't like it. 313 00:19:04,636 --> 00:19:08,196 Speaker 2: Is it really that it's having that understanding of what 314 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:11,556 Speaker 2: is partently acceptable and what is not. 315 00:19:12,236 --> 00:19:14,116 Speaker 1: Then what happens how many yeses you get out of 316 00:19:14,116 --> 00:19:18,156 Speaker 1: that thousand little trees totally depends. 317 00:19:18,196 --> 00:19:20,396 Speaker 2: It depends on what the parents are, you know, and 318 00:19:20,676 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 2: I don't know the numbers specifically for that cross combination. 319 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:28,396 Speaker 2: But once we've if something is a yes, then it's 320 00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:30,636 Speaker 2: a case of just harvesting a sample of that fruit, 321 00:19:30,716 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 2: bringing it back in, putting it in the cold store 322 00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:36,356 Speaker 2: for a couple of months, and then evaluating it. Because 323 00:19:36,396 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 2: if it doesn't hold up for two months in a 324 00:19:40,196 --> 00:19:43,596 Speaker 2: refrigerated cooler, then it's not going to make it as 325 00:19:43,636 --> 00:19:45,276 Speaker 2: far as this industry is concerned. 326 00:19:45,716 --> 00:19:50,836 Speaker 1: So you do yourr does its store test, and then what. 327 00:19:51,796 --> 00:19:54,636 Speaker 2: Well, and then you know, we want to look at 328 00:19:54,676 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 2: it again the following year to see if it's because 329 00:19:57,756 --> 00:20:02,196 Speaker 2: you know, season to season things vary. So one we 330 00:20:02,356 --> 00:20:04,756 Speaker 2: decide that it is, you know, it's maybe had a 331 00:20:04,796 --> 00:20:08,156 Speaker 2: couple of years of good fruit quality on that individual 332 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:11,756 Speaker 2: seedling tree, then we propagate more trees, make a whole 333 00:20:11,796 --> 00:20:13,876 Speaker 2: new tree that is a clonal copy, and we can 334 00:20:13,916 --> 00:20:16,276 Speaker 2: do that for as many buds as there are in 335 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:18,676 Speaker 2: the tree, and often you know what we do. Why 336 00:20:18,716 --> 00:20:21,436 Speaker 2: it takes a long time is because we are looking 337 00:20:21,636 --> 00:20:27,556 Speaker 2: for something that is robust. Ye, and without having multiple 338 00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:31,036 Speaker 2: years worth of evaluation of fruit off that tree, you 339 00:20:31,076 --> 00:20:34,556 Speaker 2: can't really make a sort of a call on it 340 00:20:34,596 --> 00:20:37,996 Speaker 2: to say, yeah, I'm confident that this one is robust 341 00:20:38,116 --> 00:20:39,996 Speaker 2: enough to be able to move forward. 342 00:20:40,196 --> 00:20:42,036 Speaker 1: So it has to be robust, not just in the 343 00:20:42,076 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: sense of you can put the apples in the fridge 344 00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:47,236 Speaker 1: for a couple months, whatever, in storage for a couple months. 345 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:48,716 Speaker 1: It has to be robust in the sense that the 346 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:53,276 Speaker 1: tree can deal with some variance in terms of weather 347 00:20:53,436 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 1: and pests and whatever. 348 00:20:56,356 --> 00:21:00,396 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, And we have to have enough copies of 349 00:21:00,436 --> 00:21:04,116 Speaker 2: the tree to produce bins worth of fruit, not just 350 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 2: our single tree, you know, small sample of fruit, because 351 00:21:07,396 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 2: we want to do a lot more refrigeration storage tests. 352 00:21:11,476 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 2: We want to be able to see does that fruit 353 00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:16,796 Speaker 2: store for six months? Will it store for nine months? 354 00:21:17,476 --> 00:21:21,596 Speaker 2: And of course every time you evaluate the fruit it's destructive. 355 00:21:21,796 --> 00:21:24,916 Speaker 2: You know, you can't you can't test the same apple 356 00:21:25,676 --> 00:21:27,516 Speaker 2: numerous times because you've cut it up. 357 00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:31,516 Speaker 1: How long does an apple got a store to be 358 00:21:31,516 --> 00:21:32,476 Speaker 1: commercially viable? 359 00:21:33,876 --> 00:21:37,876 Speaker 2: What I look for is something that would be storable. 360 00:21:37,996 --> 00:21:41,316 Speaker 2: It will store well for the full year, so that 361 00:21:41,716 --> 00:21:44,636 Speaker 2: it will have a space on the supermarket shelf for 362 00:21:44,676 --> 00:21:48,756 Speaker 2: twelve months and consumers can just continue to buy it 363 00:21:48,836 --> 00:21:50,516 Speaker 2: all year round. 364 00:21:50,356 --> 00:21:52,756 Speaker 1: Like a gallon of milk. You just walk in and 365 00:21:52,796 --> 00:21:56,076 Speaker 1: it's there, and it's always the same. Yeah, well, you know, I. 366 00:21:55,996 --> 00:22:00,076 Speaker 2: Mean, this is what always amazes me is that our 367 00:22:00,276 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 2: consumers really have this sort of detachment from from the 368 00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:08,716 Speaker 2: production of their food. They're not necessarily understanding that our 369 00:22:08,756 --> 00:22:11,756 Speaker 2: apples are only harvested once a year that they want 370 00:22:11,796 --> 00:22:13,036 Speaker 2: to eat them for twelve months. 371 00:22:14,116 --> 00:22:19,076 Speaker 1: So we're testing them out and amazingly you get to 372 00:22:19,076 --> 00:22:21,036 Speaker 1: the point where you say, can we store it for 373 00:22:21,076 --> 00:22:22,716 Speaker 1: a year, And the answer is yes. 374 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:26,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 375 00:22:27,276 --> 00:22:29,076 Speaker 1: So there was a story in the New York Times 376 00:22:29,116 --> 00:22:32,276 Speaker 1: about this apple that talked about it as sort of 377 00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:36,356 Speaker 1: optimized for climate change or you know, adapted to work 378 00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:40,876 Speaker 1: better in a warmer climate in Washington. Is that part 379 00:22:40,876 --> 00:22:42,156 Speaker 1: of the calculus for this apple? 380 00:22:43,236 --> 00:22:47,476 Speaker 2: It certainly is bread and selected for the Washington climate. 381 00:22:48,476 --> 00:22:51,276 Speaker 2: It is bread and selected for the Washington climate now, 382 00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 2: which in itself is quite a different production climate to 383 00:22:56,116 --> 00:22:58,196 Speaker 2: everywhere else that grows apples in the world. 384 00:22:58,396 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 1: How has the climate changed the way the apple business 385 00:23:00,556 --> 00:23:02,636 Speaker 1: in Washington works over the past several decades. 386 00:23:05,116 --> 00:23:12,156 Speaker 2: I think that we're seeing we're seeing more impact of 387 00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:16,796 Speaker 2: extreme heat in the summer. So we're definitely apples get sunburn. 388 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:22,876 Speaker 1: Does the sunflair handle heat better than older varieties? 389 00:23:23,756 --> 00:23:27,116 Speaker 2: It's well. One thing that we would one thing that 390 00:23:27,156 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 2: we measure very specifically is just how much of the 391 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:33,836 Speaker 2: fruit from the orchard would get through the supply chain 392 00:23:33,916 --> 00:23:37,316 Speaker 2: to the hands of the consumer. And it will. It's 393 00:23:37,396 --> 00:23:41,036 Speaker 2: called its pack out or its grade out, and that yeah, 394 00:23:41,156 --> 00:23:46,316 Speaker 2: it certainly has got a very it's leaving very little 395 00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:50,196 Speaker 2: fruit in the orchard. That fails for varying different things, 396 00:23:50,236 --> 00:23:51,756 Speaker 2: sunburn being one of those. 397 00:23:52,036 --> 00:23:56,236 Speaker 1: Okay, what's the next apple you're going to make? 398 00:23:56,996 --> 00:24:00,996 Speaker 2: Oh after Sunflair? I am not one hundred percent sure. 399 00:24:01,556 --> 00:24:03,476 Speaker 2: I know what I would like it to be, but 400 00:24:03,556 --> 00:24:06,556 Speaker 2: I'm not sure whether or not it would have what 401 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:09,316 Speaker 2: we call a fatal floor. That's that sort of of 402 00:24:09,676 --> 00:24:12,876 Speaker 2: that one problem that's going to stop it from being 403 00:24:12,876 --> 00:24:14,916 Speaker 2: able to go out big time. 404 00:24:15,156 --> 00:24:17,076 Speaker 1: That's what makes it a tragic apple. 405 00:24:17,716 --> 00:24:20,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it might be a big tragedy, and 406 00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:25,116 Speaker 2: we're looking at evaluating it just a bit further to 407 00:24:25,156 --> 00:24:27,156 Speaker 2: make sure that it's good. 408 00:24:28,676 --> 00:24:31,876 Speaker 1: How has technology changed your work? I mean, you've been 409 00:24:32,316 --> 00:24:36,556 Speaker 1: doing it for twenty years ish, We've got AI We 410 00:24:36,596 --> 00:24:38,396 Speaker 1: know a lot more about genetics than we knew twenty 411 00:24:38,476 --> 00:24:41,956 Speaker 1: years ago. Like, how has your work changed or the 412 00:24:41,996 --> 00:24:45,956 Speaker 1: way you do your job even changed from when you started. 413 00:24:47,756 --> 00:24:52,836 Speaker 2: I think in terms of just developing that the molecular 414 00:24:52,876 --> 00:24:55,916 Speaker 2: side of the technology to get us to a point 415 00:24:55,916 --> 00:25:00,196 Speaker 2: where we do understand more about the genetic or genomic 416 00:25:00,276 --> 00:25:05,276 Speaker 2: control of particular characteristics. And so for example, you know, 417 00:25:05,396 --> 00:25:07,916 Speaker 2: right now we're doing a whole load of work looking 418 00:25:07,956 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 2: at trying to understand why some apple varieties are more 419 00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:18,836 Speaker 2: susceptible to sunburn than others, and really trying to see 420 00:25:19,916 --> 00:25:22,996 Speaker 2: which genes are expressed. Is there is there something that 421 00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:26,836 Speaker 2: we can pick up that would enable us to develop 422 00:25:26,876 --> 00:25:31,676 Speaker 2: a tool for earlier selection for those characteristics. 423 00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:37,076 Speaker 1: Could you imagine in your you know, in your career, 424 00:25:37,156 --> 00:25:39,196 Speaker 1: getting to a point where you can look at a 425 00:25:39,236 --> 00:25:45,876 Speaker 1: genome and know what kind of apple it's going to make, 426 00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:47,596 Speaker 1: and how it stores and how it tastes. 427 00:25:49,356 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 2: When I started about thirty something years ago, that's what 428 00:25:53,516 --> 00:25:58,876 Speaker 2: I envisaged, But I'm not seeing I mean, you know, 429 00:25:59,036 --> 00:26:02,716 Speaker 2: I'm pushing sixty. Will I have this in my career? 430 00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:06,476 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that I'm more aware of 431 00:26:06,516 --> 00:26:10,476 Speaker 2: the fact that the majority of things that we're interested 432 00:26:10,516 --> 00:26:17,916 Speaker 2: in in apples are apologenic. The control is incredibly complex 433 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:21,236 Speaker 2: for a lot of these traits, and so to be 434 00:26:21,316 --> 00:26:25,076 Speaker 2: able to say, just looking at the genome what it's 435 00:26:25,116 --> 00:26:27,876 Speaker 2: going to do as an apple, I don't know that 436 00:26:27,916 --> 00:26:30,876 Speaker 2: we'll get to that point within my working career. 437 00:26:31,596 --> 00:26:33,956 Speaker 1: It's harder than you thought when you started. 438 00:26:34,236 --> 00:26:35,676 Speaker 2: It, seriously, is Yes. 439 00:26:36,396 --> 00:26:38,636 Speaker 1: I feel like that's been a big lesson of genetics 440 00:26:38,636 --> 00:26:41,916 Speaker 1: for everybody, right, Like the Human Genome Project was like 441 00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:45,116 Speaker 1: around the time when you were getting started, right, but 442 00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 1: it's like, great, now we know the genome, We're going 443 00:26:47,396 --> 00:26:49,836 Speaker 1: to figure everything out it's like, oh no, actually it's 444 00:26:49,836 --> 00:26:50,876 Speaker 1: super complicated. 445 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:54,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and all the easy stuff we did 446 00:26:54,276 --> 00:26:57,676 Speaker 2: right at the beginning, and so it felt like we 447 00:26:57,676 --> 00:27:00,676 Speaker 2: were making these great steps forward, and we certainly were. 448 00:27:01,596 --> 00:27:06,156 Speaker 2: But you know, when you start thinking of the nuances 449 00:27:06,476 --> 00:27:10,796 Speaker 2: of certainly the eating eggs of an apple, they are 450 00:27:10,956 --> 00:27:11,876 Speaker 2: really complex. 451 00:27:15,956 --> 00:27:18,116 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 452 00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 1: M hm, let's do a lightning round. Okay, what fruit 453 00:27:34,156 --> 00:27:34,996 Speaker 1: do you eat for fun? 454 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,196 Speaker 2: Usually the bizarre grapes that I grow in my garden. 455 00:27:41,516 --> 00:27:43,956 Speaker 1: Oh, tell me about your grapes. 456 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:49,076 Speaker 2: It's just a native plant has grapes that taste like blueberries. 457 00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:52,916 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a grape that tastes like a blueberry. 458 00:27:52,916 --> 00:27:54,956 Speaker 1: Does not seem like a thing to be dismissive about. 459 00:27:55,036 --> 00:27:58,196 Speaker 1: It's like, it's like sort of an heirloom grape. Can 460 00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:01,036 Speaker 1: I get one? They don't store well or something. 461 00:28:01,436 --> 00:28:03,436 Speaker 2: I don't know enough about them? 462 00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:09,476 Speaker 1: Such kind of you got there? Yeah? Yeah, What do 463 00:28:09,476 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 1: you think is the most underrated fruit? 464 00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:18,996 Speaker 2: Oh? I think pears? Sure, you know pears. Pears can 465 00:28:19,076 --> 00:28:24,356 Speaker 2: be a phenomenal fruit. And I think that most consumers 466 00:28:24,396 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 2: have never experienced a really great eating experience with a pear. 467 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:35,996 Speaker 1: I feel like pears for me, as a fruit lover, 468 00:28:36,516 --> 00:28:38,756 Speaker 1: have a problem that is similar to the problem I 469 00:28:38,836 --> 00:28:41,356 Speaker 1: have with stone fruit, which is it's hard to know 470 00:28:41,396 --> 00:28:44,276 Speaker 1: what's going to be a good one. I could use 471 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:47,276 Speaker 1: some branded pears, actually, right, I could use the Fuji 472 00:28:47,356 --> 00:28:49,916 Speaker 1: apple of pears. Why doesn't that exist? 473 00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:55,676 Speaker 2: Well, partly, I mean, there certainly are many, many new 474 00:28:55,756 --> 00:28:56,756 Speaker 2: varieties of pear. 475 00:28:57,236 --> 00:28:59,916 Speaker 1: There's some pear breeder who's yelling at me right now, 476 00:29:00,076 --> 00:29:03,876 Speaker 1: say they do exist. Well, what pear should I try? 477 00:29:04,636 --> 00:29:07,836 Speaker 2: Well, there's a new pair that is being produced here 478 00:29:07,876 --> 00:29:11,956 Speaker 2: in the state called Happy Happy Pair. Look for that. 479 00:29:12,516 --> 00:29:13,356 Speaker 2: It will make you happy. 480 00:29:13,436 --> 00:29:15,396 Speaker 1: Are you just saying that because you have to as 481 00:29:15,436 --> 00:29:16,516 Speaker 1: a Washington state. 482 00:29:16,836 --> 00:29:21,716 Speaker 2: No, it's nothing to do with Washington State, with WSU anyway. 483 00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:26,116 Speaker 2: It certainly it's produced here. Yeah, that's certainly worth trying. 484 00:29:26,356 --> 00:29:29,396 Speaker 2: I think a lot of the the challenge of getting 485 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:32,516 Speaker 2: a new pair variety out is that our pair production 486 00:29:32,676 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 2: systems haven't modernized in the same way that our apple 487 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:40,476 Speaker 2: production systems have. And that gets down to the fact 488 00:29:40,516 --> 00:29:45,396 Speaker 2: that there are not any really good dwarfing rootstocks for pair. 489 00:29:45,516 --> 00:29:49,196 Speaker 1: Oh, so that key breakthrough that started the apple revolution 490 00:29:49,276 --> 00:29:50,556 Speaker 1: hasn't come to pairs yet. 491 00:29:51,236 --> 00:29:55,116 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, and so it's it's a real challenge for 492 00:29:55,276 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 2: pair growers to switch varieties. 493 00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:00,236 Speaker 1: Because they got to grow a bunch of big, expensive trees, 494 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:04,716 Speaker 1: and that's a risk. What's the most overrated fruit? 495 00:30:07,036 --> 00:30:09,956 Speaker 2: Oh? I kind of hate to say, but I would. 496 00:30:10,396 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 2: I will anyway. I think a lot of our blueberries. 497 00:30:14,676 --> 00:30:20,516 Speaker 2: I think our blueberries are improving, but I think that 498 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:24,356 Speaker 2: there is certainly quite a few on the market that 499 00:30:24,396 --> 00:30:27,556 Speaker 2: are a little watery in my opinion, and don't have 500 00:30:27,596 --> 00:30:28,196 Speaker 2: any flavor. 501 00:30:28,836 --> 00:30:31,436 Speaker 1: I feel like blueberries are one where I still notice 502 00:30:31,476 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 1: the seasonality. I live in New York, and certainly in 503 00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:37,036 Speaker 1: the price you notice it, Like in there's some moment 504 00:30:37,076 --> 00:30:39,716 Speaker 1: when they harvest the blueberries in New Jersey and you 505 00:30:39,756 --> 00:30:42,156 Speaker 1: can basically get blueberries for free in New York, Like 506 00:30:42,236 --> 00:30:45,436 Speaker 1: every corner store has them spilling out the door, and 507 00:30:45,516 --> 00:30:47,476 Speaker 1: they're good. Are they way better? I don't know, They're 508 00:30:47,516 --> 00:30:53,036 Speaker 1: way cheaper. That's what I noticed. Was there some particular 509 00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:57,156 Speaker 1: apple that was incredible to eat that just had a 510 00:30:57,196 --> 00:31:03,756 Speaker 1: tragic flaw wouldn't work you know commercially that you still remember, Oh, 511 00:31:04,316 --> 00:31:06,716 Speaker 1: there's always a few. Tell me about one. Tell me 512 00:31:06,756 --> 00:31:09,396 Speaker 1: about one incredible apple that had a tragic flow. 513 00:31:10,556 --> 00:31:17,396 Speaker 2: Just you know, a beautiful, really striking, red blushed apple, 514 00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:22,796 Speaker 2: ultra crisp, really tasty off the tree, super juicy, all 515 00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:28,396 Speaker 2: the things that you really want in an apple, but 516 00:31:28,796 --> 00:31:31,716 Speaker 2: you know, two weeks later it seriously isn't. 517 00:31:34,316 --> 00:31:38,996 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you could cross any two fruits and don't 518 00:31:38,996 --> 00:31:43,756 Speaker 1: worry about scientific plausibility, just dream big. What would they be? 519 00:31:46,196 --> 00:31:51,996 Speaker 2: Oh? Good question. I would like I love cherry flavor. 520 00:31:52,876 --> 00:31:56,236 Speaker 2: I like a really dark, dark red cherry. I think 521 00:31:56,236 --> 00:32:01,356 Speaker 2: that's a phenomenal flavor. I would like to see that 522 00:32:01,636 --> 00:32:05,836 Speaker 2: combined with ultra crisp apple texture. 523 00:32:06,076 --> 00:32:08,796 Speaker 1: Wow, so it would be like kind of an apple 524 00:32:08,836 --> 00:32:13,236 Speaker 1: that tastes like a red cherry. Right? Interesting? 525 00:32:14,076 --> 00:32:14,596 Speaker 2: Sound good? 526 00:32:14,916 --> 00:32:18,596 Speaker 1: It does sound good. I'm gonna tell you mine. It's sillier, 527 00:32:18,716 --> 00:32:22,876 Speaker 1: but I still want it. It's it's the shape of 528 00:32:22,996 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 1: a of a clementine, you know, a little citrus that's 529 00:32:25,436 --> 00:32:27,836 Speaker 1: easy to peal. But when you peel it, what's inside 530 00:32:28,036 --> 00:32:34,076 Speaker 1: is watermelon. Oh yeah, I love watermelon, but it's hard 531 00:32:34,156 --> 00:32:38,116 Speaker 1: to prepare. Like it's a it's big. It's awkward. Hit 532 00:32:38,156 --> 00:32:42,796 Speaker 1: the big knife and the big cutting board. Avocados and 533 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:49,916 Speaker 1: tomatoes Are they fruits? Yes, damn it. 534 00:32:50,956 --> 00:32:51,156 Speaker 2: Yeah. 535 00:32:54,876 --> 00:32:57,636 Speaker 1: It was lovely to talk with you. Congratulations on inventing 536 00:32:57,636 --> 00:32:58,116 Speaker 1: an apple. 537 00:32:59,156 --> 00:32:59,436 Speaker 2: Thank you. 538 00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:13,036 Speaker 1: Kate Evans is a professor in the Department of Horticulture 539 00:33:13,116 --> 00:33:16,636 Speaker 1: at Washington State University and she's a breeder of apples 540 00:33:16,716 --> 00:33:20,796 Speaker 1: and pears. Today's show was produced by Gabriel Hunter Chang 541 00:33:20,876 --> 00:33:24,436 Speaker 1: and edited by Lydia Jane Kott. Our engineer this week 542 00:33:24,636 --> 00:33:28,396 Speaker 1: was Hansdale. She we're always looking for ideas for who 543 00:33:28,436 --> 00:33:30,396 Speaker 1: to talk to and what to cover on the show. 544 00:33:31,036 --> 00:33:34,676 Speaker 1: You can email us at problem at Pushkin dot fm. 545 00:33:35,076 --> 00:33:37,396 Speaker 1: You can find me on x at Jacob Goldstein. You 546 00:33:37,396 --> 00:33:40,756 Speaker 1: can find me on LinkedIn. I'm Jacob Goldstein. Thank you 547 00:33:40,876 --> 00:33:42,796 Speaker 1: very much for listening to the show, and we'll be 548 00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:46,236 Speaker 1: back next week with another episode.