Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's
Speaker 2: Charles w Chuck Bryant, and this is Stuff you Should Know.
Speaker 2: And this is a fairly rare edition where we do
Speaker 2: an episode that we decided to do within the last
Speaker 2: few episodes. We don't usually turn it around that fast.
Speaker 2: Usually it's like seven to eight years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a quick one. Then Julia turned this
Speaker 1: around for us, pretty Staddy. I just made that up, Sure,
Speaker 1: but I get it. I think everyone knows what you mean.
Speaker 1: But we're talking about UNESCO World Heritage Sites, UNESCO standing
Speaker 1: for which I never knew. I'm glad I know this now.
Speaker 1: The United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization whom in
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two drafted this treaty to preserve of world
Speaker 1: heritage as a whole, you know, whether it's as we'll see,
Speaker 1: like a place or a thing. And they even expanded
Speaker 1: later into like, you know, cultural processes and customs and traditions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's where this idea came from. We were
Speaker 2: doing our episode on contortionism, and we found that Mongolia
Speaker 2: was turned down for getting world heritage protection for their
Speaker 2: contortionist history didn't make They were like, what the age?
Speaker 2: So we started looking into this and it is pretty interesting.
Speaker 2: One of the things that apparently is a fairly common
Speaker 2: misunderstanding is that if you have like a heritage site,
Speaker 2: like something is identified and labeled a World Heritage site,
Speaker 2: that that is no longer sovereign territory in your country
Speaker 2: could not be wronger, that still belongs to you. But
Speaker 2: what's happened is that the world, essentially everybody who's a
Speaker 2: member of UNESCO, has agreed to say, like, we want
Speaker 2: to preserve this in your country, it's yours, but it
Speaker 2: really we're all agreeing that this belongs to humanity because
Speaker 2: it's so important to human culture, so unique that we
Speaker 2: need to preserve it. And it takes more than just
Speaker 2: one country to preserve things like this, So we're all
Speaker 2: going to get together and take shared responsibility for this
Speaker 2: important part of human culture.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also a little bit of protection, Like you know,
Speaker 1: you've got something valuable on yourself there. We're all watching
Speaker 1: you right as you as you juggle your way through
Speaker 1: the room.
Speaker 2: In mint condition.
Speaker 1: That's right. There's one quote here that I think kind
Speaker 1: of nails. It is. It's it's things that have outstanding
Speaker 1: universal value. So it's the universality of it all, as
Speaker 1: far as you know, needing to cherish and care for
Speaker 1: these things. And I think it's kind of a kind
Speaker 1: of a cool deal. I mean, some people might criticize
Speaker 1: it as a big sort of political thing to get
Speaker 1: tourist dollars headed your way, but I think it's actually
Speaker 1: pretty great.
Speaker 2: Oh I do too. I think it's good too. I
Speaker 2: think it's both. Though I think the ideal of it
Speaker 2: is awesome. I think that in practice lately it's.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, great in trouble.
Speaker 2: The thing is the idea that is outstanding universal value.
Speaker 2: I get that again as an ideal, but in practice
Speaker 2: that is not always the case. And I draw your
Speaker 2: attention to the US Dunkerque, which is horseback shrimp fishing
Speaker 2: in Belgium. And if that sounds obscure to you, you're right,
Speaker 2: because only twelve families practiced this. Still, that is a
Speaker 2: protected and tangible heritage that is not of universal value,
Speaker 2: although it is super interesting and I'm glad it's protected
Speaker 2: because why not. But I just thought that that was
Speaker 2: There's a lot of different things that contradict the idea
Speaker 2: that it's of universal value.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. This all got started post World War Two,
Speaker 1: after the world got together and decided to wreck everything
Speaker 1: again for the second time in about thirty years, and
Speaker 1: everyone kind of looked up and we're like, geez, you know,
Speaker 1: we lost a lot of museums and churches and monuments
Speaker 1: and entire cities sometimes or huge portions of cities are
Speaker 1: just gone, and maybe we need as a world nation
Speaker 1: to get together and sort of start caring for these
Speaker 1: things a little bit more so. The UN kind of
Speaker 1: led the brigade on this, and UNESCO was formed in
Speaker 1: nineteen forty five. I think I said that nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: two was when the World Heritage Treaty or whatever came about.
Speaker 1: UNESCO was around, you know, quite a while before this
Speaker 1: came around. So starting in nineteen forty five is when
Speaker 1: UNESCO was formed and they basically started a campaign to
Speaker 1: start protecting these places from a few things. It's not
Speaker 1: always just like war, that is definitely one of them,
Speaker 1: but also human development and natural disaster.
Speaker 2: Right for sure. First thing, I think they were really
Speaker 2: kind of focused on learning from like archaeology was a
Speaker 2: big thing. They were into for a while, but it
Speaker 2: really started to take the shape that we understand it
Speaker 2: today in nineteen fifty nine, when Egypt went to UNESCO
Speaker 2: and said, hey, man, like, we want to build this dam.
Speaker 2: It's really important though we have a reservoir of water.
Speaker 2: But when we build the dam, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: like really old like Egyptian Furonic Arab dynastic monuments that
Speaker 2: are going to be underwater. So can you help us
Speaker 2: figure this out? And UNESCO said, this is it. We've
Speaker 2: been waiting for this for fourteen years.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They said, we need to raise some money, so
Speaker 1: they got about eighty million dollars together and said, all right,
Speaker 1: let's move these two temples, specifically to higher ground. So
Speaker 1: they moved they disassembled these temples, moved them about six
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty feet, which it was higher and out
Speaker 1: of harm's way, and that sort of, like you said,
Speaker 1: that just sort of started this idea of like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, we can get together and make great things
Speaker 1: happen and protect great places. And that kind of continued
Speaker 1: through the sixties until nineteen seventy two. On November sixteenth,
Speaker 1: at their seventeenth General Conference, when they adopted the Convention
Speaker 1: concerning the protection of World Cultural and Natural Heritage, which
Speaker 1: culminated the center of all that is basically this World
Speaker 1: Heritage List.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there was one other aspect of that nineteen
Speaker 2: fifty nine Asuan Damn Initiative. I guess dozens of countries
Speaker 2: like donated to make this happen, Like this was eighty
Speaker 2: million dollars in nineteen fifty nine dollars. This is a
Speaker 2: significant amount of money. Egypt was really the only country
Speaker 2: that was going to benefit from this, but countries are
Speaker 2: while in the world, said no, we want to help
Speaker 2: take responsibility for this because we think that these are
Speaker 2: that important. They transcend just Egyptian importance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And that leads to the second part
Speaker 1: of that. What happened in nineteen seven to there was
Speaker 1: the Heritage List and the Heritage Fund and that fund.
Speaker 1: You know, without money, none of this really matters that much.
Speaker 1: You know, it takes a lot of dough sometimes to
Speaker 1: do things like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, because like you said, a lot of
Speaker 2: it's threatened in One of the big things is preservation,
Speaker 2: protection and restoration. So that World Heritage Convention from seventy two,
Speaker 2: it created the World Heritage List, and now here, finally
Speaker 2: we have reached like the actual modern incarnation of what
Speaker 2: UNESCO's largely involved in, or at least known for.
Speaker 1: That's right. As far as the nuts and bolts of
Speaker 1: it all goes. There is the World Heritage Committee, which
Speaker 1: is twenty one member countries at this point that are
Speaker 1: elected for six year terms, and they're the ones that
Speaker 1: are sort of in charge of overseeing all this. The
Speaker 1: United States has been a member country before and not
Speaker 1: been a member country depending on which politician is in
Speaker 1: the White House. You can probably figure that one out.
Speaker 2: Well, no, nuts is probably there's some surprising dates in
Speaker 2: there if you ask me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're not in there now. I think when
Speaker 1: did we drop off? Twenty eleven, yeah, but we were
Speaker 1: back on then back off again in like twenty one, right,
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, twenty eighteen, Okay, I can't get my years straight.
Speaker 2: That's because of COVID.
Speaker 1: So you know, if you are they call it hosting.
Speaker 1: But if you have a World Heritage site in your country,
Speaker 1: you have to You can't just say give us all
Speaker 1: the money and don't worry about it after that. You
Speaker 1: have to provide annual reports. You have to, you know,
Speaker 1: deliver reports on like how the property is, the state
Speaker 1: of the property, any concerns like moving forward, basically kind
Speaker 1: of how things are going. And if you're a member country,
Speaker 1: you get the whopping sum of four million dollars a
Speaker 1: year from the World Heritage Fund, and that is I mean,
Speaker 1: some of that is preservation, but I get the feeling
Speaker 1: a lot of that is like just sort of functioning
Speaker 1: and identifying places and promoting your own world heritage.
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably paying for Docince is a chunk of that.
Speaker 1: Too, Yeah, probably so.
Speaker 2: But also if something happens acute disaster from human or
Speaker 2: natural causes, you'll get some emergency assistance. And then this
Speaker 2: is another big one that I think probably really comes
Speaker 2: in handy. There are experts who work at UNESCO who
Speaker 2: can train your staff, right. You don't have to figure
Speaker 2: out you don't have to reinvent the wheel every time
Speaker 2: and be like, this is an archaeological site. Let's figure
Speaker 2: out how to train you the staff to preserve it
Speaker 2: and explain it and all that stuff. You can send
Speaker 2: them off to I guess New York and have them
Speaker 2: trained up to do those things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And tourism it's a big deal if
Speaker 1: you get one of your if you are a country,
Speaker 1: when you have a site, did you get put on
Speaker 1: this list? It's a big deal because people I think
Speaker 1: that don't know a ton about this kind of look
Speaker 1: at it as like a seven Wonders of the World
Speaker 1: list in some ways, and like here's a place like
Speaker 1: we got a visit before we die.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's hundreds of wonders of the world as far
Speaker 2: as the World Heritage List is concerned.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So originally, Chuck, there were just like physical places and
Speaker 2: features that were on the World Heritage List called sites,
Speaker 2: and they were divided essentially into two categories, cultural or natural.
Speaker 2: And you can kind of generally guess what the criteria
Speaker 2: was for each.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like if it's a natural Heritage site, that means
Speaker 1: there's just universal value, maybe scientifically or maybe even just esthetically.
Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about the Great Barrier Reef of
Speaker 1: Australia or Serengeti National Park in Tanzania, stuff like that,
Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's about protecting these natural wonders
Speaker 1: of the world generally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean we just take for granted that
Speaker 2: the Serengeti National Park is like amazing, but the reason
Speaker 2: why specifically. It was chosen because it's one of the
Speaker 2: best examples of large predator prey interactions. Like you just
Speaker 2: do not see lions chasing down antelope in Kansas. You
Speaker 2: don't see it unless the zoo's gone crazy. And that's
Speaker 2: one reason why it's protected. It's basically the main reason
Speaker 2: why it's protected. But then there's also an intersecting thing
Speaker 2: too that it's also gorgeous. So this fulfills a couple
Speaker 2: of things. It's biologically important to science, but it's also
Speaker 2: esthetically amazing too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And this goes you know, every single
Speaker 1: one of these things. And we're not just going to
Speaker 1: go through and list a ton of different places. But
Speaker 1: if you're talking about the Yellowstone National Park, or the
Speaker 1: Galapagos Islands or like I mentioned, the Great Barrier Reef,
Speaker 1: these all seem like pretty obvious inclusions.
Speaker 2: For sure, and they were probably included pretty early on
Speaker 2: in the list's existence.
Speaker 1: Oh geez.
Speaker 2: So that's the natural site. There's also the cultural site,
Speaker 2: and these are essentially, you know, human made environments or
Speaker 2: structures or places of human occupation where humans did something
Speaker 2: impressive important, or it was just part of a larger culture.
Speaker 2: For example, there's a crossroads and I think, oh, I
Speaker 2: don't remember where it was, but it was just a
Speaker 2: crossroads back on the in the like the third century CE,
Speaker 2: and it was just really important at the time. It
Speaker 2: doesn't seem all that important now, but it was, and
Speaker 2: you want to preserve it because the future generations can
Speaker 2: learn from it and experience it and appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know, it can also be
Speaker 1: a building or a sculpture, like the Statue of Liberty
Speaker 1: is on there under cultural heritage under that, but so
Speaker 1: is like Venice, Italy. So it can be a whole
Speaker 1: city that's sort of an ancient modern well not maybe
Speaker 1: not ancient, but a modern wonder.
Speaker 2: You know, right, and then it can be ancient two.
Speaker 2: And then also like how the esthetics and scientific importance
Speaker 2: intersect in the Serengeti National Park, that can happen, and
Speaker 2: cultural sites too, like it can be where archaeology and
Speaker 2: intersects with you know, humans like making shaping the natural environment,
Speaker 2: like the Kohoki amounts are on the list yea to
Speaker 2: where like all these different boxes can be checked and
Speaker 2: those are they call the the money sites where there's
Speaker 2: just a bunch of different criteria going on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when I said not ancient Venice specifically.
Speaker 2: I see, I see have you been to Venice.
Speaker 1: I've never been there. It's on a big time on
Speaker 1: the list. But I also just realized, I don't know
Speaker 1: when all that was engineered.
Speaker 2: I wanted to say, like the sixteenth century, but it
Speaker 2: could be like agent that's ancient is now.
Speaker 1: No, I don't even know what ancient means now I
Speaker 1: think about.
Speaker 2: It, but it's you're gonna love it. You will love Venice.
Speaker 2: And when you do, go there, go to Harry's Bar.
Speaker 2: It's where the Bellini was invented. Okay, they save Hemingway's
Speaker 2: seat at the bar, it's preserved. But their martinis are really,
Speaker 2: really good. They're outrageously expensive just because they know that
Speaker 2: you'll pay it because you're a tourist. But it's still
Speaker 2: worth getting.
Speaker 1: Well, maybe I can grow the beer back out and
Speaker 1: put some weight back on and convince everyone on the
Speaker 1: ghost of Hemingway and take that seat.
Speaker 2: Finally, well, bring a multi extra toad cat with you
Speaker 2: or are they cross eyed? What is it about those
Speaker 2: cats too to?
Speaker 1: I don't know. Are they polydactyl.
Speaker 2: I think so there's some unique feature that the Hemingway
Speaker 2: cats on Key West. I'll share. Yeah, okay, I want
Speaker 2: to say it's an extra toe. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: Well, moving on, we'll figure that out. There are total
Speaker 1: a total of twelve hundred and forty eight World Heritage
Speaker 1: sites right now. The vast amount of those are cultural.
Speaker 1: I think seventy eight percent, nineteen percent are natural, and
Speaker 1: three percent are mixed. And Europe in North America have
Speaker 1: almost half of them. They have forty six percent, compared
Speaker 1: to Latin in the Caribbean, Latin American Caribbean at twelve percent,
Speaker 1: Asia and the Pacific twenty five percent, the Arab States
Speaker 1: eight percent, an African nine percent, although we should say
Speaker 1: Africa holds twenty percent of all the natural sites, which
Speaker 1: is pretty impressive and not surprising.
Speaker 2: That is cool. I say we take a break. But
Speaker 2: first I also wanted to point out that not all
Speaker 2: of these are you know, just like up with humanity like.
Speaker 2: They also preserve some pretty dark stuff too. One good
Speaker 2: example is the Navy School of Mechanics in Argentina, which
Speaker 2: has turned into a Site of Memory, a museum where
Speaker 2: they basically preserved the fact that this was a place
Speaker 2: where people were abducted, tortured, and murdered by dictatorships in
Speaker 2: Latin America in the nineteen seventies and eighties. And this
Speaker 2: is a World Heritage site because it's important to remember.
Speaker 2: People will do this, like people will vote people like
Speaker 2: this into office and keep them there, and those people
Speaker 2: can turn on their own people, and you can be
Speaker 2: abducted and disappeared and murdered by the state that happens.
Speaker 2: That to me is like one of the big driving
Speaker 2: I guess it drives home the point of the World
Speaker 2: Heritage lists more than some of these others. Right to remember, right,
Speaker 2: but you don't have to just remember the dark stuff.
Speaker 2: You can remember all the stuff, but you can't ignore
Speaker 2: the dark stuff, I guess, is what I mean.
Speaker 1: Well said, just like Lord Vader himself.
Speaker 2: What do you say, like, come on over, baby, the
Speaker 2: dark side's feeling great?
Speaker 1: I think so that was the line. Should we take
Speaker 1: that break?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we should.
Speaker 1: All right, We'll be right back, everybody, all right. So
Speaker 1: we mentioned early we're back by the way, that UNESCO
Speaker 1: would eventually adopt stuff like oral traditions and performing arts
Speaker 1: and social rituals and practices and things like that. That
Speaker 1: happened in two thousand and three specifically, and you know,
Speaker 1: this was a very valuable ad. I think, like a
Speaker 1: skill set or a knowledge, or just some irreplaceable custom
Speaker 1: or traditional craft or skill or something that you know,
Speaker 1: could be in danger of being lost, you know, if
Speaker 1: not for stuff like this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again it can be twelve families shrimp fishing
Speaker 2: on horseback in Belgium.
Speaker 1: I want to see that. What does that look like?
Speaker 2: It looks like somebody with a horse and a shrimp
Speaker 2: net on a beach. I saw a picture of it.
Speaker 1: I mean I kind of figured that, but you know,
Speaker 1: I bet the shrimp are good.
Speaker 2: But I think this is it's worth preserving too, because
Speaker 2: this is important to like these people. It's not saying
Speaker 2: like was this this is what America thinks is cool
Speaker 2: or this is what you know Zimbabwe thinks is cool?
Speaker 2: Like this is this is important to this culture. There's
Speaker 2: a culture on planet Earth and this is important to
Speaker 2: them and we should preserve it just for that very reason.
Speaker 2: Plus also, really, what is supporting horseback shrimp fishing among
Speaker 2: twelve families in Belgium really costing the world to support?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Agreed? One part about being included on this part of
Speaker 1: the list is that And I think this is kind
Speaker 1: of cool is it can be inherited from the past,
Speaker 1: but it also is applied to a contemporary setting, and
Speaker 1: so that means, you know, it can't be the lost
Speaker 1: art of whatever if it's like truly really no one
Speaker 1: is even doing this at all anymore. Like you can
Speaker 1: be dlisted and we're gonna talk about that in a minute.
Speaker 1: Not d listed is in d dash, but d E dash.
Speaker 2: Oh you've seen you know that site?
Speaker 1: Well, no, wasn't that a TV show?
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know. There's a really mean like burn
Speaker 2: blog or there used to be called you Listed. That
Speaker 2: was hilarious but also really cruel.
Speaker 1: No, I was never on that. But if you are included,
Speaker 1: that means this practice or this ritual or custom is
Speaker 1: passed through generations and communities and very community based overall.
Speaker 1: Like it's recognized, it's recognized within that community and outside
Speaker 1: that community as something of value, kind of like the
Speaker 1: trimp people.
Speaker 2: Trimp people just because it's interesting, you know, Yeah, let's
Speaker 2: talk about we dug up some other ones. You want
Speaker 2: to just kind of throw a few of these out.
Speaker 2: I found basically all these interesting movies should probably just
Speaker 2: pick some.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll go with the bagpipes. Bulgarian bagpipe making and
Speaker 1: bag pipe playing. Apparently it's a very big thing in Bulgaria,
Speaker 1: passed down through the families for generations, and it used
Speaker 1: to be like a father to something. Now they will
Speaker 1: teach all genders, which is kind of great, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's in social clubs, they teach it in schools and
Speaker 1: they're like, we need to protect this, and it is
Speaker 1: on that list.
Speaker 2: It's also there's some very famous ones too that it's
Speaker 2: not just as obscure as horseback shrimp fishing. Artisanal baguette
Speaker 2: making in France is protected, Coffee's protected sauna culture and
Speaker 2: Finland's protected. Gingerbread crafting in Croatia, and then it does
Speaker 2: get a little more niche loincloth weaving and cote de
Speaker 2: voir human power creation. They're called castles in Spain to
Speaker 2: where people just stack up on other people. And then
Speaker 2: there's also an annual grass mowing competition in Bosnia Hertzgevina,
Speaker 2: and it is using a scythe they're not just like
Speaker 2: riding John Deere tractors or anything like that, and it's
Speaker 2: exactly what it sounds like it's a grass mowing competition
Speaker 2: that's protected. Also, so is yodeling in Switzerland.
Speaker 1: Yeah, great list, thank you, So check.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you said there's a danger list.
Speaker 2: Did you mention that. I don't think we have yet. No.
Speaker 1: I talked about being delisted. But before you're delisted, you
Speaker 1: can be in danger.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can be in danger from we did
Speaker 2: kind of talk about you can be in danger from
Speaker 2: armed conflict, war, from climate change, from all like just
Speaker 2: a complete change of the surrounding area can can get
Speaker 2: you delisted. In danger is where this is the step
Speaker 2: before delisting, and essentially UNESCO steps in and says, hey,
Speaker 2: we need to do something about this because the site
Speaker 2: is deteriorating, or we need to figure out how to
Speaker 2: lift the Statue of Liberty one hundred feet so that
Speaker 2: sea level rise doesn't you know, wash it away. And
Speaker 2: there's two kinds. There's ascertained danger, which is like this
Speaker 2: is going to happen, and then there's potential danger, like
Speaker 2: say stuff coming from climate change, or if it's you know,
Speaker 2: a civil conflict is starting to heat up and it
Speaker 2: looks like a civil war is going to break out
Speaker 2: and there's a heritage site right in the crossfire.
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. And you know, one good example of
Speaker 1: something they might do is they are these national parks
Speaker 1: and I guess they're all national parks in the Democratic
Speaker 1: Republic of Congo. That was, they were all made the
Speaker 1: Danger List between ninety four and ninety seven, so they
Speaker 1: you know, kind of put up the warning flag and
Speaker 1: UNESCO came in with their fat Bank account. There were
Speaker 1: some NGOs involved that wanted to get involved and donate
Speaker 1: some money, and they had a four year rehabilitation campaign
Speaker 1: for these parks and then a second campaign, and this
Speaker 1: kind of goes to show how the international community comes together.
Speaker 1: These are all in the Democratic Republic of Congo. But
Speaker 1: in two thousand and four the second campaign got funded
Speaker 1: from Belgium and Japan. They're like, let's take care of
Speaker 1: these places.
Speaker 2: Yeah. There's another site, the Remains of Bamiyan Valley in
Speaker 2: Afghanistan is what it's called. It went from not on
Speaker 2: any World Heritage list immediately to the danger list. The
Speaker 2: Taliban back in two thousand and one blew up these
Speaker 2: two I think ten and fifteen story tall cliff carved
Speaker 2: I guess statues are reliefs of Buddha from the sixth century.
Speaker 2: They were beautiful, and the Taliban blew them up by
Speaker 2: shooting them with shoulder launched rocket launchers that were probably
Speaker 2: provided by the CIA back in the eighties when they
Speaker 2: were fighting the Russians. And this was an enormous thing.
Speaker 2: Like people were like, what are you doing? What is
Speaker 2: the problem here? Is this part of this kind of
Speaker 2: ethnic cleansing campaign against the Hazara people who live in
Speaker 2: the area, And so they're like, I guess UNESCO was like,
Speaker 2: all right, we can't let anything like that happened again.
Speaker 2: Let's get in here and try to preserve this valley.
Speaker 2: And it was put on the danger list and they
Speaker 2: started a campaign in two thousand and nine to just
Speaker 2: basically go in there and figure out how to move
Speaker 2: forward and keep this valley from getting worse off than
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there is a big deal. So part
Speaker 1: of their you know, UNESCO getting involved theres is identifying
Speaker 1: and getting rid of those land mines first and foremost.
Speaker 2: Yep, let's see.
Speaker 1: Everglades National Park, Florida's treasure that's on there. Yeah, very
Speaker 1: sadly on the danger list.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also like civil conflicts really target stuff or
Speaker 2: in danger sites like the historic center of Odessa and
Speaker 2: Ukraine is on the list. Ancient Aleppo in Syria is
Speaker 2: on the list. It can Yeah, that's a big It
Speaker 2: seems like armed conflict and climate change are the two
Speaker 2: biggest threats to world here sites.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. You know, we did talk about
Speaker 1: being delisted, and thankfully that's only happened a few times,
Speaker 1: because if you're deleted from the list, that means like
Speaker 1: that means you're probably done as a thing, and that
Speaker 1: like there's no point in protecting you anymore because it
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. And one one good example of that is
Speaker 1: the Liverpool Maritime Mercantile City. It was delisted in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one. This was the historic docklands of Liverpool, very big,
Speaker 1: you know, port town obviously in England, and they built
Speaker 1: a stadium there. Everton Stadium was built and it was
Speaker 1: it basically kind of wiped all that out. So they
Speaker 1: were like, well, there's no reason for this being on
Speaker 1: the list anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The Tower of London is not on the Danger list,
Speaker 2: but it's on the pre danger list for the same reason.
Speaker 2: The development that's going on in the area threatens to
Speaker 2: basically take away its natural or historic I mean, identity.
Speaker 2: Even just being built around They're not talking about knocking
Speaker 2: down the Tower of London, but just building around it
Speaker 2: can change the built environment enough that UNESCO's like it's done.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sometimes it's very sad. In this case in Oman,
Speaker 1: the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary was delisted in two thousand and
Speaker 1: seven that had a popular of Arabian Orx antelope and
Speaker 1: that you know, that was decimated so much, that population
Speaker 1: such that I believe it fell down to like sixty
Speaker 1: five of them in two thousand and seven. And I
Speaker 1: guess that was and this was because of poaching, obviously
Speaker 1: in habitat destruction, which makes it super sad, but I
Speaker 1: guess that was low enough to where they were like,
Speaker 1: all right, you know, no more protection from US, I know.
Speaker 2: And that's sad because it seems like that's when they
Speaker 2: should swoop in and be like, we're we're going to
Speaker 2: occupy this area, Oman, we are, this is no longer
Speaker 2: sovereign Oman.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think there are other organizations that
Speaker 1: do and protect species like that, so hopefully they weren't
Speaker 1: just sort of left out in the wind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that they were on the
Speaker 2: danger list first and then they just did yeah, follow through.
Speaker 2: But that's that we should say. It's not a It's
Speaker 2: pretty dishonorable for a country to let one of its
Speaker 2: sites end up on the danger list, even worse to
Speaker 2: have it delisted. So countries tend to work hard to
Speaker 2: get off of the danger list, and that does actually happen.
Speaker 2: That happened in twenty twenty five to three different spots,
Speaker 2: the rainforest of Atsananana in madayascar Abu Mena in Egypt,
Speaker 2: think that was the crossroads. And then in the old
Speaker 2: town of Gadamis in Libya that was the crossroads. It
Speaker 2: was the crossroads between Africa and the Mediterranean years ago.
Speaker 2: But those were all for different, various reasons on the
Speaker 2: danger list, and those countries worked very hard and aggressively
Speaker 2: to address all of those issues and get them back
Speaker 2: off of the danger list. So it is possible to
Speaker 2: get off the danger list and certainly not be delisted.
Speaker 2: And usually countries who take this stuff seriously will work
Speaker 2: hard to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to be on the naughty list.
Speaker 1: Exactly earlier, when you said cross roads, I thought genuinely
Speaker 1: thought you were gonna say the Mississippi Crossroads where Robert
Speaker 1: Johnson sold his soul to the devil.
Speaker 2: Do they have that one crossroad identified?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It sure seems like it should be a World Heritage site.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I'm not sure if they actually
Speaker 1: had the actual crossroads, or if it's more of a
Speaker 1: not apocryphal but or maybe it is apocryphal. It could
Speaker 1: be both, yeah, or ephemeral, could be all three.
Speaker 2: Have we taken our second break? I don't think we
Speaker 2: have have.
Speaker 1: No, let's take it. It's perfect timing. Look at us
Speaker 1: thirty minutes in.
Speaker 2: Okay, we'll be right back, So, Chuck, politics plays a
Speaker 2: huge part in UNESCO and the World Heritage List. You
Speaker 2: would probably not be surprised to think because this is
Speaker 2: a bunch of different nations coming together and they don't
Speaker 2: always play super well together, or when they do play
Speaker 2: super well together, it's often like gaming the system. And
Speaker 2: that seems to be what is going on today with
Speaker 2: UNESCO and the World Heritage Convention, that it's basically been
Speaker 2: creeping slowly toward a way for countries to make more
Speaker 2: money through their tourism industry. Get some sites on the
Speaker 2: World Heritage list, you can go promote it worldwide and
Speaker 2: bring more people to your country where they're going to
Speaker 2: spend a bunch of drachmas.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. There is a professor of anthropology at
Speaker 1: Stanford name Lynn Meskel who basically said it's entirely about
Speaker 1: political and economic gain at this point, just a tool
Speaker 1: in a much larger arsenal of non sorry of nation
Speaker 1: state politics. And you know, the politics of it all
Speaker 1: can't be ignored these days. It's you know, there's an
Speaker 1: interesting thing that happens, you know, in terms of like repatriation.
Speaker 1: You know, we've talked at some point here and there
Speaker 1: about like, you know, when there's plundering from wars and
Speaker 1: things like that, and all of a sudden the countries
Speaker 1: own things, or at least have possession of them in
Speaker 1: place of them in museums they weren't there to begin with,
Speaker 1: like giving this stuff back. There's a big movement for that,
Speaker 1: but there's also this sort of idea on the other
Speaker 1: side of like, well, we will take care of that
Speaker 1: stuff because it is in London or New York City
Speaker 1: and we're not going to give it back to you.
Speaker 1: And that same sort of mentality has been sort of
Speaker 1: the same thing has sort of applied to World herited sites.
Speaker 1: I think a little bit where indigenous peoples are kind
Speaker 1: of moved out of the conversation because the attitude is like, well,
Speaker 1: you just don't know what's best for your stuff, right.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like, if you're a bunch of Westerners
Speaker 2: coming along as tourists to tour this world heritage site
Speaker 2: that's of immense cultural value to this local group, if
Speaker 2: current people from the local group show up, they kind
Speaker 2: of push them out of their way by their face
Speaker 2: and they're like, out of the way, you're ruining the diorama.
Speaker 2: This took place a thousand years ago. We don't care
Speaker 2: what's going on with you today, even though you're directly
Speaker 2: related to this. I think is that mentality.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, that's a good way to say it.
Speaker 2: I think sadly, there's also like a whole I talked
Speaker 2: about gaming the system. One of the ways that you
Speaker 2: can game the system is essentially withdraw, like the United
Speaker 2: States has done twice now in the eighties and in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen. You can withdraw from UNESCO and this convention.
Speaker 2: You can still nominate sites, including sites in your own country, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: so you're getting the best of both worlds where you
Speaker 2: can get those tourism dollars for getting new World Heritage sites,
Speaker 2: and you're also not paying dues or you're not spending
Speaker 2: any of your own money to support other sites. But
Speaker 2: if you need help with your sites because of World
Speaker 2: Heritage site, you can get other countries' money who are
Speaker 2: doing the right thing and paying their dues.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, not a cool thing to do, if
Speaker 1: you ask me. The other thing that they've seen, I
Speaker 1: think kind of starting in like the nineteen nineties, it
Speaker 1: seems like, is when countries are getting together and voting together,
Speaker 1: like forming packs and voting blocks to either get listed
Speaker 1: or to block maybe a site from getting on the
Speaker 1: Danger list, because we said that's kind of like being
Speaker 1: on the Naughty List.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So, like Latin American countries will frequently band
Speaker 2: together and vote in one another's best interests. Or also
Speaker 2: I think even countries that aren't members anymore, say the
Speaker 2: US can basically be like, hey, vote for us for
Speaker 2: this thing, and you know, we'll make sure that we
Speaker 2: up are oil imports from your country by ten percent
Speaker 2: or so.
Speaker 1: Oh interesting, you know.
Speaker 2: So I think the more the more juice you have,
Speaker 2: the more you can get stuff done even if you're
Speaker 2: not a member anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And you know, like you said, this
Speaker 1: is big money. Like if you're included on this list,
Speaker 1: they will you'll be a part of their advertising campaign
Speaker 1: and then you can also create your own around that,
Speaker 1: you know, touting inclusion.
Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, I can tell you that I want
Speaker 2: to go see them in no impalatial centers in Greece.
Speaker 2: Six Bronze Age sites that were part of the late
Speaker 2: Bronze Age collapse. They're about to be or they were
Speaker 2: just in twenty twenty five put on. So that's the
Speaker 2: tourism's working already.
Speaker 1: So you might not have known about that had it
Speaker 1: not been included.
Speaker 2: Probably, yes, I did not know those sites existed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure they have a robust website with lots
Speaker 1: of pretty pictures.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and that's basically like being there in person, right,
Speaker 2: but it's free.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Speaking of the danger list, there are a
Speaker 1: few sites that you know, you can be removed from
Speaker 1: the danger list. That's the that's the goal, I guess
Speaker 1: before being delisted, and that happened last year. The Rainforest
Speaker 1: and Madagascar are those the ones that you're talking about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not on the danger list. And then that town
Speaker 1: in Libya was that where the.
Speaker 2: Crossroads was, That's the crossroads.
Speaker 1: So they, I guess, what do you do? Just raise
Speaker 1: enough hay or prove that you're actually protecting it in
Speaker 1: such a way.
Speaker 2: Well, I'll give you the example of the crossroads. The
Speaker 2: old town of Gamities, I believe is what it is. Acadamiescatamies,
Speaker 2: thank you. Their irrigation techniques were raising the water table
Speaker 2: and some of the very ancient buildings were in danger
Speaker 2: of crumbling from the water exposure. So Libya went in
Speaker 2: and basically came up with different irrigation techniques that they
Speaker 2: taught to the locals lower the water table. And now
Speaker 2: the site is no longer in jeopardy and it's off
Speaker 2: of the danger list.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 2: It's essentially just a question of the host country having
Speaker 2: the will to spend a few bucks to remedy the situation.
Speaker 2: That's all it is.
Speaker 1: I wonder if one member country has enough places like
Speaker 1: that make that danger list, if there's any sort of
Speaker 1: maybe not even official penalty, but like hey, hey listen, guys,
Speaker 1: you need to You got three on the danger list.
Speaker 1: Now you need to get it together.
Speaker 2: It's a really bad look.
Speaker 1: It is a bad look.
Speaker 2: Kind of talking about the politics of this too. There
Speaker 2: was a really startling turn of events in twenty twenty
Speaker 2: where Rejet Erdowan, the President of Turkey nilatterally said, Hey,
Speaker 2: the Hagia Sophia, this part this part of world heritage.
Speaker 2: It was a cathedral and then a mosque and now
Speaker 2: it's a museum. We're turning it back into a mosque.
Speaker 2: And UNESCO's like, we didn't talk about this, and Iwan said,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, we're doing that. And this is like,
Speaker 2: I mean, this thing was built in the five thirties.
Speaker 2: It's one of the more amazing buildings in the world.
Speaker 2: And in the nineteen thirties the court in Turkey said,
Speaker 2: this is a museum. This is no longer a mosque.
Speaker 2: Turkey is secular and that's all there is to it.
Speaker 2: So it's a museum until Airdwank came along in twenty
Speaker 2: twenty and changed it back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, unilaterally decided this on his own,
Speaker 1: and UNESCO was like, hey, not only did you shouldn't
Speaker 1: have done this, but you didn't tell us you were
Speaker 1: doing this, and you're using this as like, this is
Speaker 1: a World Heritage site. Now you can't use it for
Speaker 1: your own political gain. You can't try and curry favor
Speaker 1: with the Turkish Islamic Turkish conservatives. And he was like, well,
Speaker 1: you know, what do you say. It's not a museum
Speaker 1: anymore and we're not charging entry fees anymore. Yep. Was
Speaker 1: that as like comeback?
Speaker 2: I guess it was a comeback of sorts or a
Speaker 2: defense or something. He's like, where you don't have to
Speaker 2: pay to get in anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty weak.
Speaker 2: But that was twenty twenty and absolutely nothing happened. That's
Speaker 2: the other problem. This is a problem with almost everything
Speaker 2: that has to do with the UN. It's like, what
Speaker 2: are you going to do? Really? Yeah, Like, I'm fine,
Speaker 2: I don't care about peer pressure, you know, the international
Speaker 2: community being mad at me. That's all it takes, and
Speaker 2: there's nothing that can be done about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Let me see what else is on
Speaker 1: the danger list. You mentioned the Statue of Liberty right
Speaker 1: as far as some of the big dogs m see, Yeah,
Speaker 1: great barrier reef that's been threatened for a long time,
Speaker 1: as our reefs all over the world.
Speaker 2: Bury very sad ocean bleaching. Also, the Sydney Opera House
Speaker 2: is coming close to the danger list because of the
Speaker 2: arise as well.
Speaker 1: Oh man, it's right there on the water. You got
Speaker 1: to protect that thing, I know.
Speaker 2: Man, I say we go out. I just want to
Speaker 2: throw out a couple more of these amazing and tangible
Speaker 2: ones that are protected. Okay, great midwifery from Germany to Togo.
Speaker 2: Sometimes this can cross cultures.
Speaker 1: Yea, it should have been from like Albania Desaire. That's
Speaker 1: how you got to do.
Speaker 2: Those great I called tiki horse breeding in tur Kamenistan.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that one.
Speaker 2: Here's a good one, savice preparation in Peru.
Speaker 1: I'm all about that.
Speaker 2: I am too. You'll also like this one, the Da
Speaker 2: de los Moritos in Mexico, the Day of the Dead.
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. Hey. You know what, here's a tip
Speaker 1: for especially for you and me and Emily. If you go,
Speaker 1: if you love that Savica, you just got to make
Speaker 1: sure you got to say no pulpo. Oh really yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we You don't need octopus?
Speaker 2: Right? Oh? Is that what that is?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: I definitely do not there too. Intelligence. Yeah it's cool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we learned that in Mexico. City that pulpo is
Speaker 1: the words. We're like, oh, okay, so that's what we
Speaker 1: need to avoid.
Speaker 2: So you say, hold the pulpo, yeah, or just get
Speaker 2: the one without it, okay.
Speaker 1: Like I would never go to another country and say,
Speaker 1: can you not put this thing in there that you
Speaker 1: traditionally eat, Like you can find a savica that's probably
Speaker 1: just a fish or tramp or scalop or whatever.
Speaker 2: Oh really, I feel like I take the burger king
Speaker 2: approach to tourism, where I was like, I'll have it
Speaker 2: my way. You got anything else, I got nothing else.
Speaker 1: This was a fun one. I know there's something I
Speaker 1: knew nothing about, and now I feel like I know enough,
Speaker 1: which is our charge as a show to like talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about it intelligently around to dinner table.
Speaker 2: And to attend UNESCO World Heritage meetings and speak up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where do they have those New York?
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's go. All right, I'm sure anybody can just
Speaker 2: walk in. If you want to know more about UNESCO
Speaker 2: World Heritage, go check out some sites. You can tour
Speaker 2: the world from your computer again for free. And in
Speaker 2: the meantime, I think it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is from Stephen Cook from Halifax, Nova Scotia,
Speaker 1: who visited the Kowloon Walled City.
Speaker 2: Oh cool, or.
Speaker 1: At least the park. Hey guys visited that Kowloon Wall
Speaker 1: City Park this past December on our first trip to
Speaker 1: Hong Kong, and it's a delightful spot with sports facilities
Speaker 1: for nearby residents, some remnants of the original building foundations
Speaker 1: as a reminder of its bass, and the one original
Speaker 1: building that is now a museum. That's the one we
Speaker 1: talked about. Yeah. Plus, there's a special exhibit that recreates
Speaker 1: a streetscape in the community using sets from the twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four film Twilight of the Warriors colon Walled in
Speaker 1: which stars Hong Kong action legend sam O Hung as
Speaker 1: a local crime boss named mister Big. I guess when
Speaker 1: you're this big they call you mister. The set recreates
Speaker 1: a whole block with a barbershop can means store, a
Speaker 1: shoe repair stand, and a fish ball making factory with
Speaker 1: period props into corps. A visit is highly recommended, and
Speaker 1: Stephen included a few photos which are great.
Speaker 2: Can't wait to see this because I looked all over
Speaker 2: for the exhibit and I couldn't find any photos that
Speaker 2: I saw mention of it at some point.
Speaker 1: Yeah, search search that email, buddy and it'll come up.
Speaker 2: Thanks Steven. That's a great one. Yeah, if you have
Speaker 2: been to Kowloon, Walt City, let us know. We want
Speaker 2: to hear from all of you, and if you have
Speaker 2: anything to say, really even hi, right Chuck.
Speaker 1: Hi and Hello is a great thing to hear always.
Speaker 2: Yes, you can send it via email to stuff podcast
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
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