1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:11,239 Speaker 1: It could happen here, Mike is possibly anyway, I'm Robert Evans. Uh, 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: you know who I am, because you're listening to this 3 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: show unless you stumbled upon this having never heard of 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: the Internet before, in which case this is a show 5 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: about how things are kind of falling apart, and we 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: also try to talk every now and then about how 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: to maybe put them back together a little bit. My 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: co host is Garrison Davis. Garrison, say hello to the people. Hello, people. 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: I'd also like you to say hello to Sean. Hi. Sean. Yeah, 10 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: there's a Sean somewhere out there. Listen. Probably a few sans. Yeah, 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: it was at least one or two. Garrison, what do we? 12 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: What do we? What do we? What? What? What are we? Well, 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: we're finally doing something I've been wanting to do for 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: a while. Is branching off into kind of covering different 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,279 Speaker 1: parts of like media and culture UM that kind of 16 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: relate to all of these topics UM. I know both 17 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: the with me, but both me a little bit and 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: and Robert more so have worked for or have have 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: written for UM like an online investigative journalism website called 20 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Belling Cat that deals in open source UM like research 21 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: and One of the things that we're big fans of, 22 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:19,679 Speaker 1: that belling Cat I've talked with a few of the 23 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,200 Speaker 1: other people is a game called Her Story, which is 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 1: a video game that has maybe one of the better 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: better depictions of kind of open source um investigations. Uh 26 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a very it's a very good game. 27 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: I highly recommended. I played it a few years ago. 28 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: It was lovely and I recently uh well, Originally, when 29 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: I bought Her Story, I bought both that game and 30 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: like a spiritual sequel called Telling Lies, which I did 31 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: did not play for a while because I was too 32 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: busy um. And then I went to the Earth First 33 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: Gathering this summer and I and I came back and 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: I had some free time, so I played Telling Lies, 35 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: And because of the content of that game, I found 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: it really interesting. Because I'm not gonna spoil tons of it, 37 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: I think you should play it for yourself, and part 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: of it is solving the mystery on your own. But 39 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: but part of it does take place to like green 40 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 1: environmentalism activism setting, and it has one of the more 41 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: honest depictions of environments like that. So I have we 42 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: are we are graced with bringing on the creator of 43 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: both Her Story and telling lies. Uh. Sam Barlow, Hello, Hey, 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: exciting to be Lovely Interest. Yeah I am. I am. 45 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm very excited to talk with you. These games are 46 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: some of my favorite things. Um. First off, I guess 47 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: I would just like to kind of talk about your 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: inspiration for this type of detective game, because it is 49 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: it is unique to every other kind of investigative game 50 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: out there. UM. And it's you know, very much grounded 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: in open source research. Um. And like you think computers 52 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: that in the real world. What what kind of got 53 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: you onto that kind of storytelling concept? I mean, I 54 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: think there was a whole bunch of things that all 55 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: kind of sparked off at once. Like when I made 56 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: Her Story, this was my first independent video game. So 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:22,239 Speaker 1: I've been making video games for ten plus years, um, 58 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 1: working on other people's franchises, more traditional things kind of 59 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: when I started out working on like Nicolas Cage movie, 60 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: Tiants and extreme sports games and all these kind of things. Um. 61 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: But at some point I got to work on the 62 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: Silent Health franchise, which is this very cool psychological horror franchise, 63 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: and it's one of the certainly at that point in time, 64 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: it was one of the few kind of established gaming 65 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: franchises that had a story that was interesting and took 66 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: place in the real world and had characters and things, 67 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: So kind of from that point, I was really digging 68 00:03:56,200 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: into kind of a lifelong interest in storytelling as actually 69 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: what we can do with it interactively and continue to 70 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: be frustrated somewhat by working for these bigger publishers. And 71 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: at one point I worked for three years I was 72 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: directing and writing this this big budget video game that 73 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: got canceled, and that kind of gave me a moment 74 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: to kind of sit and think, like, what what do 75 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: I want to do? Do I want to get on 76 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: board another of these big video games. I was very 77 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: frustrated at the kind of incremental change that you see 78 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: in the kind of bigger budget video game space. It 79 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: feels like things happened very slowly, which can be frustrating. 80 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: So I was kind of looking around. This was when 81 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: like iPhones, people gaming on their iPhones and stuff was 82 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: kind of starting to blow up. The fact that you 83 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,919 Speaker 1: could now distribute a game individually digitally and reach an 84 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: audience was sort of changing the landscape. So I kind 85 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: of felt like I should get into that and so 86 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: at its conception, her story was was me sing, what 87 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: are all the things I've wanted to do that that 88 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 1: I wasn't able to do when I was working with 89 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 1: these bigger budgets, with these more established kind of gaming templates. 90 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: So from the get go it was I wanted to 91 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: deal with characters that essentially lived in the real world, 92 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:20,919 Speaker 1: which is a hard pitch. You know, if you're asking 93 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: for big bucks, every video game has to essentially be 94 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: about superhero It needs to be some kind of wish 95 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: fulfillment for a teenage boy is generally what people are 96 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: asking for. And the big thing with her story was 97 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: subtext as someone's interesting storytelling. Us always trying to push 98 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: how important subtext is and the idea that there is. 99 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: You know, there are layers to a narrative that you're 100 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: not spelling out for the audience that they're going to 101 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 1: extract through performance or through whatever U and that was 102 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: always a hard sell when you were kind of dealing 103 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: with these kind of bigger companies that had a very 104 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 1: simple idea of what their audience was. So I wanted 105 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: to prove that the audience was actually smarter than we 106 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: were giving them credit for, and that if you gave 107 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:06,920 Speaker 1: more control to them, if you gave more of the 108 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 1: kind of work of piecing these stories together, that that 109 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,919 Speaker 1: would be not not just something they could do, but 110 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: which would actually be more interesting and more personal and um, 111 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: you know, and with her story, I had a kind 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: of lifelong love of like crime fiction and slightly more 113 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: kind of Gothic leaning crime fiction, and so I was like, right, 114 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to create a video game which is in 115 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: that world and which kind of breaks a lot of 116 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: the established rules of how you might tell a story. Um, 117 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: and you know, a lot of that I was pulling from, Yeah, 118 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 1: my love of some of the more kind of avant 119 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: garde literary stuff, interesting pieces of kind of movies and things. 120 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,280 Speaker 1: But it was, it was, it was pulling from a 121 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 1: lot of different kind of storytelling traditions and ending up 122 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: in this this interesting place where, like you say, it's 123 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: kind of a game experience where you're essentially researching the 124 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: story yourself and kind of putting the pieces together. Yeah. Yeah. 125 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,160 Speaker 1: For for people who don't know, it's like you're basically 126 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: on a virtual desktop, um, and you're sorting through like 127 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: a hard drive full of footage and the versatility of 128 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: the game, and you know, people learning how to use 129 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: like search terms, right, just like people try to use 130 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: like um in open source it's called like using like 131 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 1: um Google operators. It's the same kind of the same thing, UM. 132 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: But also there's like the other side of things. I 133 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: think a belling Cat wrote an article about your game 134 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: where they like made like a Python script to scan 135 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: all of the videos for specific keywords and put them 136 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: into like different folders and files. So it's like you 137 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: can do the thing where you just like search it, 138 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: but you could like take this to a ridiculous level 139 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: or you're like breaking the game open and doing it 140 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: like you're actually like investigating this and you need to 141 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: be very quick. Um. So I think her story is 142 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: is a lovely intro to this type of game concept. 143 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 1: And then for telling lies, you kind of changed you 144 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: change things with it. Um you made like I guess, 145 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: I guess like an expansion would be the way I 146 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: would describe it for how it like takes the same 147 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: concept and pushes it further. And I think watching these 148 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: things now, it's very different after being like two years 149 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: on Zoom right, I'm I'm sure I'm sure you've heard 150 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: this from other people as well as like you know, 151 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: because because because of how Telling Lies operates, it's like 152 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: a lot of it is well you open the game, 153 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: because you're basically cracking open and then I say hard drive. 154 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: So all of it is video from like webcams and stuff. Um, 155 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: so you know, watching people talking to their computer camera 156 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: like this after spending years on Zoom definitely uh hits harder. 157 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: I guess it was one of those things. So when 158 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: we would first working on this and conceiving of it, 159 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:53,439 Speaker 1: which was I don't know, maybe and something like that, Um, 160 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: there was a leap, right and as a storyteller, you 161 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: allow yourself sometimes to take that one leap that the 162 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: orders to take with you. And the leap was like 163 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 1: these people are using video chat a lot. But I 164 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: mean and as I was starting to put it together, 165 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: I would start noticing people around that time doing video 166 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: chat in the street on their phones, which was something 167 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: I was not used to sing and I was like, oh, ship, 168 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: maybe this is not too big of a leap. But yeah, 169 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: I think I think it was The Virgin or somebody 170 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: ran an article that like Telling Lies is still a 171 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: great game mid pandemic, it's just real hard to play 172 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: now that like this zoom thing is our lives. I 173 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: mean that was like, that was that was a big 174 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: thing I was interested in at the time, was like, 175 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 1: what what is this doing to us? What is communicating 176 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: over the internet, How does that change how conversations and 177 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: things happened? And was kind of looking into some of 178 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: the research there. So that, Yeah, that was wild. Was 179 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: was was kind of living in that world for several 180 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 1: years putting the game out and then spending two years 181 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: on zoom calls. Yeah. I mean in a few ways, 182 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: think the game has aged very well because of that, 183 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: and because the way people. People are more used to 184 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: interacting with the computer in that format now, so when 185 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: they're you know, trying to search for these like hundreds 186 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: of video files, I think they can understand it better. 187 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: Um So, in some ways, I think it's not it's 188 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: not necessarily a bad thing. Um But yeah, let's see. 189 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: So I think, well, I want to talk a bit 190 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: about kind of the influences for kind of the surveillance aspect, 191 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 1: because like her story is filmed in like a police 192 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,839 Speaker 1: um interrogation room for based basically basically the whole thing, 193 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: whereas this pulls video footage of people like in private moments. Essentially, 194 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: of course, this was like after like the Snowden stuff 195 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: and after all of the other kind of after the 196 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: you know, surveillance became a bigger talking point. Um, But 197 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: what what got you to decide you wanted to kind 198 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: of revolve the game around this concept of internet surveillance 199 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: and then you know, different three letter agencies kind of 200 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: fighting each other a little bit. So I think it 201 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: was two things. One was in making her story and 202 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: making lots of decisions somewhat intuitively kind of when it 203 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: was finished and it was a big success, and I 204 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: looked back on it, and then kind of when a 205 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: little bit of time and passed, I then had this 206 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 1: very different relationship where I had forgotten that I was 207 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: the person that had made it and so could have 208 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: opinions about it. And I was really interested in how 209 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: that that game established a level of intimacy with the 210 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: main character that Viva plays, that you're seeing being interrogated, 211 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: despite the fact that it's happening through a computer desktop, 212 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: despite the fact that there's none of what traditionally you 213 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: know that the agency you were traditionally having a video game, 214 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: which you know, conventional logic would be that's how you 215 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: would establish the idea that this person is alive and 216 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: that you're in contact with them. But the act of 217 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: like digging into all this video footage of Viva and 218 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: seeing her on screen talking essentially at you created this 219 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: this interesting amount of intimacy that a lot of people 220 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: responded to. So I was like, well, that's one of 221 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 1: the things that is interesting to me to take further, 222 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: because it's it's very rare that a video game creates 223 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: this sensation of kind of intimacy or of getting close 224 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: to or understanding people. And then it was Snowden UM. 225 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: I think it was one of the the early reports 226 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: UM from from all the various things that came out 227 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: via Snowden. There was a particular UM operation in the UK, 228 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: which I think was called Optic Nerve or something, and 229 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: the idea there was that they were spying on everyone's 230 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 1: Internet traffic and I think it's a little bit easier 231 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: to do that in the UK than it is elsewhere. 232 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: And this one particular operation, I remember there was a 233 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: PowerPoint slide that was leaked that was like their internal 234 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: presentation which proved that, like in any leaked government PowerPoint 235 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: will be the worst power point you've ever seen, like 236 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: the clip part and this terrible nous, right, um. But 237 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: in this scheme what they did and this blew my 238 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: mind was for a period if I think it was 239 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 1: two years, every single video chat that went through Yahoo 240 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: in the UK was captured and recorded, and they had 241 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 1: this issue, which I think is if you want to 242 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: go about surveillance kind of post eleven, the big problem 243 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: with surveillance and the extent to which is now used, 244 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: is like what you do with all this data, Like 245 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: it's it's it's just too much. So they they were 246 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: capturing all this Yahoo video chat and attempting to add 247 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: the metadata and sort it, which is kind of interesting 248 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: because that's kind of to some extent kind of how 249 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: something like her story worked. Yeah, yeah, totally. And the 250 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: biggest issue they had, and they put up this power 251 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: point and it blew my mind, was thirty of all 252 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: the video chat through Yahoo at this point was sexual 253 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 1: in nature, and they were concerned about the feelings of 254 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: their operatives who were doing the tagging of all this data. 255 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 1: So they'd put their best computer minds on it and 256 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: they'd come up with an algorithm which would detect an 257 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: excessive amount of skin tone and would then kind of 258 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 1: flag and silo those clips, and I just remember reading 259 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: this and being like, what about the feelings of the 260 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: people whose skin tone you're capturing? Right? Like you weren't 261 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: you weren't stopping to think like why are we doing this? 262 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: Shouldn't we be doing this? You're you're you're solving for 263 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: the problem of like how do we stop our agents 264 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: seeing all this unity? And I think there was there 265 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: was a bunch of other anecdotes right in the snowed 266 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: and stuff of people alongside him, like you know, looking 267 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: through people's webcoum data and stuff and in a in 268 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: a voyeuristic way, and just this constant invasion of people's rights. 269 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: So I think that it was one of those things 270 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, this is this is like new, 271 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: Like you know, we now have you know you you 272 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: you worry about certain levels of like your privacy being invaded, 273 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: and you would certainly worry if someone was letting themselves 274 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: into your house at night. But we suddenly found ourselves 275 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: in this position where we have these phones that we 276 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 1: put by our bedside at night, that have cameras and 277 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: microphones that are pretty much just running right and capturing 278 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: and just the extent to which now technology has transformed 279 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: surveillance and that that was really interesting to me because 280 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: I um and a big thing I wanted to do. 281 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: You know, I've made her story. And like, growing up, 282 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: I loved cop shows, and I particularly loved the good ones, 283 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 1: like like Homicide, Life on the Street in the US. 284 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: There was a show in the UK called Cracker Um 285 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: and these were like, you know, somewhat nuanced in how 286 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: they with policing, but you know, you're you're still you know, 287 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: we're in this position now where we're starting to ask 288 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: deeper questions about whether we should watch this many cops shows. Yeah, 289 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: when they're like the main thing on a'll tell itsh 290 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: and all the time. Yeah, exactly, And that would be 291 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: like when I made her story. Partly I pitched the 292 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 1: bigger publishers like we should do the equivalent of a 293 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: cop show like that, we should do crime fictional cop show, 294 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: video game, and they would always be like nah, and 295 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: I would say, well, look, this is like the evergreen. 296 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: You know, if you're a book publisher, you have a 297 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: crime show, you have a crime book. You know, if 298 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: you doing movies, you're going to have some movies with 299 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: this genres. It works, and they would always kind of 300 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: push against that. So when I made her story, that was, 301 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 1: in fact, like the arc of of playing her story 302 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: to some extent, mirrors my ark in that. Like at 303 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: the top of it, I was like, I want to 304 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: make an interesting detective game, and I want to deconstruct 305 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: how detective stories work. And I then started to do 306 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of research whereas digging into, well, how do 307 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: actual criminal investigations work, how does one interrogate the suspect 308 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: doing all that stuff? And then I started to pull 309 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: up what at the time like there was a bit 310 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: it was slightly ahead of like the true crime explosion, 311 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: but there was starting to be stuff on YouTube and 312 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: in various places where footage from real investigations was online, 313 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: and it was starting to get a bit weird and interesting, 314 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 1: and that people were kind of vicariously watching these things. 315 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: And yeah, that raised also questions they were trying to 316 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: piece Thegether their own kind of conclusions based on these 317 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: leaked or sometimes officially released interview segments. Yeah, and and 318 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: there was one in particularly got really into the Jodi 319 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,760 Speaker 1: Arias case. It's just like a and and the way 320 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: the media spun that story and just really dug into, Oh, 321 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: there's like sex and murder and Mormons, and there's this 322 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: beautiful blond woman who now when she goes to court 323 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,879 Speaker 1: has gone brunette, and they were endlessly talking about on 324 00:17:50,920 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: cable news like her parents and setting her up as 325 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: this kind of them fatile kind of ice maiden. Um. 326 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: On the slip side of this, I think there's like 327 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: the thing with them the Making the Murderer documentary, which 328 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: I think I have some issues with how they handle 329 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: the main guy, but particularly how they showed the totally 330 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: immoral interrogation tactics used on used on Brandon the kid um, 331 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: and that really cracked that whole thing open, being like, yeah, 332 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: the way the police are interrogating miners without it was 333 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: the lawyers is shocking. And that was that was that 334 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: was part of this transition for me. Was was was 335 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: going into her story with like, the hero of this 336 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: is the detective. It's Andre Brower and homicide of life 337 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: in the Street, it's the genius detective that's going to 338 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: come in there and crack this case. And the more 339 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 1: I dug into in cases like Jody's where um the 340 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: word various um aspects to that case, she definitely did 341 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: murder her lover, but there are lots of questions around 342 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: whether the relationship itself was particularly healthy. Um And by 343 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: the end of it, like all of my sympathy was 344 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: with Jody, not the interrogator who You watch it and 345 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: you realize that, like, the reason this person is in 346 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: this situation is because their life has gone very badly, 347 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: and the reason for that is everything that's happened in 348 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: their life prior to this, and they've never spoken to 349 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: anyone about any of this stuff. And suddenly they're in 350 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: this room with the homicide detective who's like, hey, you 351 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: can talk to me. I'm the first person that's going 352 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 1: to sit and listen to you, and all these tricks 353 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: that they use to just get people talking, and it 354 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 1: becomes very intimate and becomes kind of like therapy session. 355 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: But by the end of it, so for me, like 356 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 1: the hook of her story is, oh, you get to 357 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: solve a murder, but really, by the end of it, 358 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: it's like a character Portney should entirely be with her 359 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: and is less about seeing justice done right. So even 360 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: but even coming away from that, I was like, I 361 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: still feel slightly uncomfortable with with kind of having made 362 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: this thing that is reveling in how much fun it 363 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 1: is to be involved in the police work or whatever. 364 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: And so I was definitely thinking about the snows and 365 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: stuff thinking about that aspect and the extent to which 366 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: technology has just so empowered policing in general to the 367 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: point where it's there's this great um. Like one of 368 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: the core themes that I wanted to dig into and 369 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: telling lies was that when you see people try and 370 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: defend this stuff and defend policing in generally, is they 371 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: try and set it up so that you basically have 372 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: They talk in terms of families and very close relationships, 373 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: so they're kind of like, well, the government is your parent, 374 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: and they're trying to look after you, and you understand 375 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: as a parent, you're going to sometimes invade the privacy 376 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: of your children or sometimes you're going to inhibit their 377 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: freedoms because you're trying to protect them. And we all 378 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: understand that and that's part of being human, and that's 379 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: all that's happening here with government, right We're trying to 380 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: protect you from the big bad add the evil. I 381 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: sort of like there's some tweet from the NYPD the 382 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: other day that was like, you'll become you'll come running 383 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: when evil is on your doorstep. Someone was saying something 384 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 1: bacrops and and and for me, once you you take 385 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: that understanding of how people relate directly to each they 386 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: have families, work. The second you scale it so the 387 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: size of government, it breaks like that you cannot extend 388 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: that metaphor. And then when you add in tech, Um, 389 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, the extent to which uh, you know, privacy 390 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: has been degraded, our freedoms. Um, you know when you 391 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: start just blanket looking for crime, right, you start creating 392 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: all the systemic issues that we have just suddenly become amplified. Um. 393 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: So that that to me was kind of interesting. Um, well, 394 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, here is like a means to explore that. 395 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: And I like one of the things that was interesting 396 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: to me about her story that in retrospect was the 397 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: extent to which it was about watching video, which seems 398 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: like a dumb thing to say, but like the choice 399 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,199 Speaker 1: to use real video kind of inspired by watching all 400 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: this interrogation piece of footage from Jodi and people. Um, 401 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, it was was kind of made Oh yeah, 402 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: that makes sense, and I just kind of got on 403 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 1: with it. But then looking back, I was like, oh, well, 404 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: it's interesting because people talk about this game as being 405 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: an interactive movie, but it's nothing like a movie. No, 406 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: not at all, And it's not how movies work. It 407 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: just happens that it uses a video camera. Only similarity 408 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,479 Speaker 1: is that it has live action footage. That so I 409 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: was like, I really want to go even further into 410 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: that texture. And so I was just thinking about and 411 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,320 Speaker 1: when I was starting to do my research, like the 412 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: idea of surveillance and and the commonalities between like classic 413 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: old school surveillance, I you know, someone sat in a 414 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: car some binoculars watching someone and and modern surveillance, the 415 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: commonalities of it's quite boring, right, there's just a lot 416 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: of sitting and watching doing nothing. Yeah, right. And but 417 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 1: out of that and when you kind of read the 418 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: first hand accounts of the people doing the surveillance or 419 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: some of the depictions of this media, like there's a 420 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: level of intimacy that you get with the person you're 421 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: surveilling right where you know, if you're just sat watching 422 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: the menucha, if someone's life, if you're listening to a 423 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: bug in someone's kitchen and just hearing all the just 424 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 1: everyday ship in their lives or if you are, you know, 425 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: watching them through some kind of technology. Um, you're just 426 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: spending all this time with them, and that's like a 427 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: that's like a very non cinematic thing. It's it's like 428 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: this that manutia and the time stretching out of just 429 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 1: being present with somebody. And that was kind of interesting 430 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: to me of just kind of putting you in that 431 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: headspace and kind of thinking about what that means. I 432 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: think that totally gets through because of the way you 433 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: break up the conversations and telling lies. You have to 434 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: sit and watch these characters as they're just doing nothing 435 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,719 Speaker 1: for sometimes like like over five minutes. They're just like 436 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: sitting there, um, and you do get like very intimate 437 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: with these characters, but it almost like in a very 438 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: like creepy way where you like you feel like I 439 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: shouldn't be here, which is kind of the general feeling 440 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: of telling It's really interesting because I like some people 441 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: would have a very and and this was you know, 442 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: completely again like trying to process how I felt watching 443 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: the like the videos of all the various police interrogations 444 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: and stuff. Was like, this is fascinating because the human 445 00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: beings were fascinated by the human beings and here is 446 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: this extremely interesting, dramatic stuff where people are just really 447 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: spilling their lives out. That's why true crime blew up, right, 448 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: But then you have all these moral questions around it. 449 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: And obviously with telling lies, it's inspired by lots of 450 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: real things, but it's fake and you're watching actors act 451 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 1: this stuff. But still some people would have this real 452 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,080 Speaker 1: visceral reaction of like I shouldn't be watching some of 453 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,120 Speaker 1: this stuff, and I'd be like, I mean, you can. 454 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: It's like that was that was where it became really 455 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: not cinematic to me, was like, you know, if you're 456 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: watching a you know, a noir film or you know, 457 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: a thriller and you have you know, or even like 458 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 1: the The thing for the domestic stuff for me was, 459 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: you know, you could watch a sitcom, watching any a 460 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: normal sitcom, and the husband and wife are sat in 461 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: bed chatting. At no point do you feel like I 462 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: shouldn't be here because you're in the kind of classic 463 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: Hollywood invisible camera set up. You're this you know, you 464 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: had permission to be there as the invisible camera spectator, 465 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,239 Speaker 1: and it doesn't feel as weird as it would if 466 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,600 Speaker 1: you're hiding in the closet of this couple's bedroom. Um, 467 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 1: So with the setup I'm Telling Lies, you immediately feel like, oh, 468 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: like this, I am in this position that I shouldn't be. 469 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: So suddenly all those more domestic moments a very different vibe. Yeah, 470 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: because you're watching them and you're you're not invited, Like right, 471 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 1: you're you know, you're sitting looking at this ns A 472 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: hard drive and you're like, yeah, I'm not supposed to 473 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: be watching this like this, this, this isn't They never 474 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: invited me into this conversation. Telling Lies very much feels 475 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: like a much more mature game than her story. Not 476 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: in terms of like has like more mature content, but 477 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: like in terms of like this concept growing up and 478 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: like evolving and and gaining more depth. Um, particularly because 479 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: you know, not only just because it has way more characters, 480 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: but because you know, you get to know all of 481 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: your kind of games deal with some degree of like 482 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: characters lying to you and like just doing like straight 483 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 1: lines to your face. That's kind of a that's my 484 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: read on a lot of a lot of your games. Um, 485 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you're the game is called Telling Lies, so 486 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: so you definitely see like elements of of you know, 487 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: all of these trying to figure out what is true 488 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: and it is not. I think it is interesting looking 489 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: at like how easier it is to lie via these 490 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,159 Speaker 1: technological platforms. Um, I don't have to, just like you 491 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: feel like telling the truth is just so much more 492 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: work and you may as well just get through this 493 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: conversation by doing a few white lives, which is that 494 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: inspiral out of control. Um. When you combine this with 495 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: you know, law enforcement, infiltration and all this kind of stuff, 496 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: he gets it gets very complicated, very quickly. Um. One 497 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: thing that I think you guys handled very well in 498 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: telling lies was kind of the activism side of things. 499 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 1: So like when when I play this game, like almost 500 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: immediately after coming back from the stop lining three protests, um, 501 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: and like and and like an Earth First gathering, you 502 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: know everyone there is always very people try to be 503 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: aware of surveillance to be like, okay, you know, you 504 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: don't talk about certain things if there's phones nearby and stuff. 505 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: So so that whole side of things was very interesting 506 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: to like play this game right afterwards because you get 507 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: to see like the other side of things, being like, okay, 508 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: if the the FBI is infiltrating this group, here's you know, 509 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: one of the ways that they do it, and like 510 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 1: that from my perspective being you know, in activism spaces 511 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: for a while, not just like environmental ones, but you 512 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: know other ones like here in Portland. Um, you had 513 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: you handled this topic very accurately. Um, what what kind 514 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,639 Speaker 1: of stuff did you pull from to kind of create 515 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: these like these you know environments and interactions between people. 516 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: Because I'm not sure if you have any experience yourself 517 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: and stuff like this, or if you've got people onto 518 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: like you talk to people who are more experienced activists. 519 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: What was kind of your inspiration for like, you know, 520 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 1: the opposite side of things, not on the law enforcement. 521 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: So that was that was like one of the big 522 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: initial jumping off points. So uh like in terms of 523 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 1: the kind of real life inspirations, Like the seed of 524 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: this whole thing was Remember when this was it was 525 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: I'm gonna say two ten could be completely wrong here, 526 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: but it was The Guardian in the UK I think 527 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: broke the story, but it was and we've recently had 528 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: some good progress in this this area, but broke the 529 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: story of this UK spy Cops operation, which was a 530 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: specific unit within the London Police whose job was to 531 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: infiltrate groups, to surveil them from the inside, and um, 532 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: it was horrific and they were like a couple of 533 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: things about it that were horrific. One of them was 534 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 1: that like, essentially their modus operandi was to find vulnerable 535 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: young women on the periphery of groups, target them romantically, 536 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 1: and then they would be the collateral to get you know, 537 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: to have people then more solidly enter into these groups. 538 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: And then they had like a whole you know, stepped 539 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: plan of like once you're in, how you kind of 540 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: would would destabilize steer these groups from within U And 541 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: the that thing that really made this even worse, um 542 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: was the fact that most of the groups, I think 543 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: maybe all of the groups targeted with this particular unit 544 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 1: were green activists. There's this incredible, incredible, like you couldn't 545 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: make this stuff up. But there's a famous libel case 546 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: where McDonald's was suing these these two activists in the 547 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: UK right because they were putting up flyers exposing some 548 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: of the practices of McDonald's and the group that they 549 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: were members of, which I think at this point was 550 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: called Green Piece, but it was different to the kind 551 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: of more famous Green Piece in London. Prior to them 552 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: doing this big kind of McDonald's thing, um was losing 553 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,239 Speaker 1: members and it got to a point where there were 554 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: so few people in this group that it would have 555 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 1: shut down had it not been for the fact that 556 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: there were a large number of undercover cops in this group. 557 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: So you know, if you imagine at some point they 558 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: were actually more undercover cops and private security people undercover 559 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: in this group that actual activists, which has enabled the 560 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 1: group to continue. And in fact, the original flyer that 561 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: they put out was written I forget the guy's name 562 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: now by one of these undercover cops. He wrote the 563 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: copy for this flyer that went out and then was 564 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: you know, saw this these people dragged up in court 565 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: and was this huge you know, McDonald's won the case, 566 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: but in terms of pr it was hugely damaging to them. 567 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, that that for me was the thing that 568 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: seemed even more point because because here you had this 569 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: story of the state sanctioning the you know, one of 570 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: the most terrible abuses, Like essentially, you know, what was 571 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 1: happening was pretty easy to to kind of call it rape, right. 572 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: There was women in sexual relationships with people and thinking 573 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: it was consensual, but not realizing that they this was 574 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: you know, what they were getting into was not what 575 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: they thought it was. And so this was just so 576 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: appalling and like from a just to kind of base 577 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: emotional level, just it was so hard for me to 578 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 1: imagine the pain of um and these women win relationships 579 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: with these undercover officers for years. Yeah, and then and 580 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: and and part of the modus operanda was when you 581 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: were done, you had to exit and disappear. And they 582 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: had this whole plan where the cops would claim that 583 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: they were being followed and that they were worried, and 584 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: then they would disappear, and then they would call from 585 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: some European country and say that they had kind of 586 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: fled the country because they were worried that the cops 587 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: were onto them, and then they would slowly kind of 588 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: disappear and this you know, some of these were kind 589 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,040 Speaker 1: of pre modern internet, so it was easier for I 590 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,719 Speaker 1: want to kind of disappear. But this stuff totally happened 591 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,959 Speaker 1: in the Green Scare in the States, in you know, 592 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: around this was around this was My big question was 593 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: was this you know, some of these cases were kind 594 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: of the original inspiration. And when I started thinking about 595 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,480 Speaker 1: trying to tell a story inspired by this. Originally it 596 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: starts off and and and it's still in based in 597 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 1: the UK, and based on these things. And there was 598 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: a particular, ah, a particular flavor to it where the 599 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: cops doing this work it was part of the matt Police, 600 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: who were you know, that's the more kind of gang story. 601 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: Like there's there's a real reputation that the Met police have, 602 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: So these cops that were chosen for this work were 603 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 1: the ones that were a bit more kind of marcho 604 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: and edgy. And there we was there was I mean, 605 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: there was so much stuff to it that that was horrific, 606 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,320 Speaker 1: Like they would only pick cops that were married, um, 607 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: because they felt that that gave them some level of 608 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: ability to be sleeping with these activists and not lose 609 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: themselves in it. Um. But obviously the wives didn't know 610 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 1: what was ending um And and there's just there's so 611 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: many layers of this that I just thought was it 612 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: was awful, And coming off the first story, I was like, well, 613 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 1: I would love to tell an undercover cops story in 614 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 1: which we acknowledge that the undercover cop is bad. They 615 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: aren't like, you know, because because it's such a classic 616 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: trope is the undercover cops story because you get to 617 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it. You get to see 618 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,439 Speaker 1: someone on both sides the law. You get you get 619 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: all the tension and thrills of it. But usually, you know, whatever, 620 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: even if the if the movie or the story or 621 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:49,799 Speaker 1: whatever has a bittersweet ending, the protagonists always the undercover cop. 622 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: And ultimately, because they're the protagonist, they're the one that 623 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: your heart goes to, right. And the secondary characters, whether 624 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: that's like the wife and Donnie Brasco or good Fellows 625 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: or something, you know, they basically serve as a foil 626 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: to the main character. So I was like, well, can 627 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: we tell a story where, um, we we treat the 628 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: wife and the activist who's being targeted and the other 629 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,680 Speaker 1: people on the periphery of this guy think more about 630 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: their perspective on this world, and let's acknowledge from our 631 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: perspective that this is wrong. Everything that's happening is wrong 632 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 1: and it's not justified. And then let's just see what 633 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,920 Speaker 1: the impact is on people. Um. So, once we started 634 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: developing it, and when I was speaking to Anna partner 635 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: about doing it, um, I felt like, oh, we should 636 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: move this to the States, um to make it feel 637 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: certainly as well, because the larger audiences American to to 638 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: kind of reiterate and make it feel kind of more 639 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: identifiable and have it be less quaint and British. Um. 640 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,279 Speaker 1: So my number one question from day one was like, well, 641 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: does this ship happen in the States and as much 642 00:35:58,200 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: does it happen in the same way. And so we 643 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: on a researcher who then started pulling stuff up and 644 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: and the big thing for me was replacing the undercover 645 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 1: group the met with the FBI. And and then I 646 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,399 Speaker 1: that became fascinating to me because then I started digging 647 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 1: into the FBI and understanding their history and everything that's 648 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: wrong there. But yeah, immediately I start seeing all these 649 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:30,800 Speaker 1: great examples of yeah, this explicit infiltration of green groups UM, 650 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: some pretty horrific cases of entrapment um, where you know, 651 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: people infiltrate these groups and then encourage them to do 652 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,640 Speaker 1: more extreme and violent things on the record. It's the 653 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 1: point where you're listening to like recorded FBI stuff and 654 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: and you can hear the group being like I'm not 655 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: sure about that, Like that doesn't sound like a great idea, dude, 656 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,040 Speaker 1: And the the FBI person is They're going like, Wow, 657 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: I don't know, I I really do think we should 658 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: blow this bridge up, guys. And it's so obvious, like 659 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 1: when you listen to which is why a lot of 660 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: these cases have ultimately been thrown out. But yeah, it 661 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: was it was. It was I guess for the project, 662 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: reassuring to see that all this stuff was happening over here. Yeah. 663 00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and the FBI, like the specific FBI agent 664 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: that we kind of follow definitely feels very American and 665 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: feels very real. Um. I really like the actor that 666 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 1: you got to play him. Um, he definitely feels like 667 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of the law enforcement dudes who 668 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: kind of handle this side of things. Um. That was 669 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: that was That was definitely that was like an FBI. 670 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: He became like the fbiis of it became very important 671 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: to it. And it was interesting the way that the 672 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: FBI they had this brand, which is partly reinforced by 673 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: the media, Like they had the great idea back in 674 00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:00,360 Speaker 1: like forties or fifties to themselves fund and support cop shows. 675 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: So this whole idea we have through the X Files, 676 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: through pretty much every serial killer media whatever. The idea 677 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: of the FBI is being like the smartest and the best, 678 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: like that's put out by them, but it's really interesting 679 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 1: to see they believe that, like they are beyond approach 680 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: and like they have higher standards for like, you know, 681 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: if you want to join the FBI, there is in 682 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: theory this kind of moral moral check that you have 683 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:32,359 Speaker 1: to pass. But into ABI age and flipping backwards and 684 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 1: shooting somebody when his gun falls out of his pants 685 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: at a clock, Well, then you read about it and 686 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: you're like, actually the experience, the lived experience, and we 687 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: were it was it was so bizarre because I was like, 688 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 1: I really want to understand what it's like to be 689 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,279 Speaker 1: an FBI wife, and um, let's find let's reach out 690 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: the research I've done. Some of the stuff we pulled up. 691 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, it, it does sound pretty bad. 692 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: Like there's a requirement if you're an FBI age and 693 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: you have to move every three years or something. So 694 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: if you're the wife to an FBI agent, you essentially 695 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: move every three years, and so you never get a 696 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: chance to build your own career or to make roots, 697 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,080 Speaker 1: and so you're generally and the wage is not great, 698 00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: which is why they're very vulnerable to corruption. Really Um, 699 00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: so you're generally living there's usually kind of areas where 700 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: all the FBI families live, so it's this very insular 701 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: world and you you start to see where some of 702 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: these wives have come out and spoken about it. They're like, 703 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: it's really shitty because our husbands, who believe themselves to 704 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 1: be like you know, March of superheroes, get to disappear 705 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: for three days at a time and we can never 706 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 1: ask where they are or what they're doing. And there's 707 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: this kind of internal code which you see in a 708 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,920 Speaker 1: lot of law enforcement right where they will cover for 709 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 1: each other and protect each other. Um. And you suddenly 710 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: start see that like, ah, you know the this is 711 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: not like And in fact, I remember reading sort of 712 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: the guy who inspired like Silenced the Lambs. The TV 713 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 1: show mind Hunter was based on him in his book. Um, 714 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,399 Speaker 1: this guy who was one of the early kind of 715 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: serial killer profiling people within the FBI. You read his book, 716 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,080 Speaker 1: It's a terrible book. When I heard that Fincher was adapting, 717 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: I was like, wow, good luck. Um, but it's incredible 718 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,879 Speaker 1: the lack of self awareness he has. Um, this guy 719 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: is so sexist and so bad. Every time he introduces 720 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: a woman, it starts by from the legs up like 721 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: he's describing it and um. At the very end of 722 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 1: the book, he reveals that his wife leaves him, and 723 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: he kind of writes as if this is a huge surprise, 724 00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, he's calling us from chapter one and he 725 00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: has the best buddy. So like the guy who's who's 726 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:54,319 Speaker 1: the kind of number two in mind Hunter on TV, 727 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 1: there's like a real life version of him. And halfway 728 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 1: through the book, his wife high is an assassin to 729 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: kind of hitman to come in and kill him, and 730 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: the guy just narrowly avoids it. And the guy writing 731 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: the book is like, what an evil woman, like my 732 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: poor friend, and you're like, well, hang on a minute, 733 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,320 Speaker 1: what did your what was your friend like? Yeah, what 734 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 1: was what was going on? Yeah, there's there's there's probably 735 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:22,200 Speaker 1: something going on there. So yeah it was Yeah, that 736 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: that sense that which I think for me, expanded beautifully 737 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: to the bigger picture of like that character kind of 738 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,919 Speaker 1: believing that he's the good guy absolutely, you know, he's 739 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: the sheriff in the Western. He's coming in and he's 740 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 1: fixing problems and he's saving the world. M but and 741 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: then hes apart and and and his inability like it's 742 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: such a brittle world view that. Yeah, he is he 743 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: is very once yeah, once he's exposed to thinking that 744 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:55,839 Speaker 1: the world is maybe different, it just totally breaks them. Yeah. 745 00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,719 Speaker 1: His specific arc I think is extremely interesting. Um, but 746 00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: I don't want to spoil it because I think it's 747 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: it's it's too it's too shocking. Once you get to 748 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,080 Speaker 1: the final piece of his story, you're like, oh wow, um, 749 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: I think that was laid out in a really beautiful way. 750 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,160 Speaker 1: But it's it's it's not like shocking away, like oh 751 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,319 Speaker 1: this this like doesn't make sense. It's like, oh no, yeah, 752 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: I can see that, I can see why he's doing this, 753 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,200 Speaker 1: but it's still it's like you kind of slowly watched 754 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,000 Speaker 1: this guy get broken down piece by piece. Um, you know, 755 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 1: because he starts he's very much like the superhero FBI agent. 756 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, ha ha, I'm gonna I'm gonna stop 757 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: these terrorists or whatever, and then he just like yeah, 758 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: watching him progress throughout the story and you can see 759 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: like how pathetic he is. Sometimes there's a there's a 760 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,719 Speaker 1: great uh one of the UK spy cops, Um, I 761 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 1: forget his name. If we're doing this three years ago 762 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 1: and I've had all these names in my head. But 763 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: he UM. Uh. So he was assigned and he was 764 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: infiltrated this screen group somewhere in the UK for a 765 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,240 Speaker 1: couple of years, had this relationship with this girl. UM 766 00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,960 Speaker 1: was participating and facilitating. UM. The the one detail that 767 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,839 Speaker 1: I loved and tried to make sure he's accurate was 768 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,799 Speaker 1: all these cops would have a van or they would 769 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: have like a big truck in the UK because they 770 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: realized that, like in these smaller groups, like being the 771 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: transportation was like your superpower. So like if you are 772 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,200 Speaker 1: someone was like, oh, I'll drive everyone to the thing. 773 00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: I'll get us all there because I have this big van. UM. 774 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: That was the easiest way to just kind of make 775 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,200 Speaker 1: yourself useful. UM. But this guy is doing all that. 776 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:30,920 Speaker 1: At some point, UM, they decided to pull him and 777 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: they pull him out. He returns to his wife and 778 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 1: his normal life back in London. UM. But he can't 779 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: go back to his normal life, and so he starts 780 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,960 Speaker 1: and he's done all the stuff of disappearing, but he 781 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,040 Speaker 1: just starts getting up and driving and maybe he's in 782 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,400 Speaker 1: the north of England somewhere, just just shows back up 783 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,399 Speaker 1: and he's like oh, I'm back, guys, And they're like, oh, Ship, 784 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 1: what happened? I thought you had to like disappear because 785 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 1: people are after you. And he's like, no, it's all right, 786 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:01,960 Speaker 1: ah and just goes back to live as an activist. UM. 787 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: And at some point one of his superiors notices that 788 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: the mileage on his police paid vehicle is huge, and 789 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: they're like, why is this guy doing so much my 790 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 1: legions because he's driving all the way back uh and 791 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,600 Speaker 1: and continuing to live this life and inhabit this character 792 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 1: that he's set up. Um. And at some point I 793 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,080 Speaker 1: think he gets found out and it all goes horribly 794 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: wrong because he no longer has like the fake idea 795 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,799 Speaker 1: and stuff that they gave him. But yeah, I mean that, 796 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,279 Speaker 1: and it's like that stuff is interesting. But then you 797 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: it was always important to never be overly sympathetic when 798 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: you see them struggling. There is an of life. There 799 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,400 Speaker 1: is certain points where you see the FBI agents struggling 800 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:52,000 Speaker 1: because of how like smug he is. You're like, yes, 801 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,719 Speaker 1: he's struggling, and you like get excited when he gets 802 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: like when he gets like reprimanded or he you know, 803 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,040 Speaker 1: people are like mad at him for various reasons. It 804 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: very interesting how you like how sympathies get pulled in 805 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: certain directions, because like, by the end of the game, 806 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,520 Speaker 1: you definitely have a much fuller perspective on who this 807 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,960 Speaker 1: guy is and how his kind of psyche works, because 808 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: he is really in a lot of ways like kind 809 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: of pathetic as like a person um and he like 810 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: needs to like hype himself up for himself to like 811 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: make himself feel like he's special. Then when that gets 812 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:35,160 Speaker 1: broken down, he just completely collapses. M I guess one 813 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: of the last things I want to talk about is 814 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,239 Speaker 1: like throughout all of your games you have kind of 815 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 1: a through line of like fairy tales. You kind of 816 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:46,320 Speaker 1: you bring in fairy tale concepts into all of these games. 817 00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: Um And. I like how a lot of your games 818 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,640 Speaker 1: are very open ended in some ways. I think that 819 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,680 Speaker 1: her story being much more open ended than than telling 820 00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: lies in some ways. Um And, I really like that 821 00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: you kind of you can't like look up, like what 822 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 1: is the ending of this game. It's like no, like 823 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: you have to piece it together in your own brain 824 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: like that, and whatever you think the story is, that's 825 00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,719 Speaker 1: where it is for you. There's no like definitive ending, 826 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,319 Speaker 1: especially like especially for her story, um and how this 827 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,840 Speaker 1: combines with fairy tales. I think it's it's really interesting 828 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,240 Speaker 1: way to like include like mythology into these more modern stories. 829 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,839 Speaker 1: What's kind of your pot process behind you know, kind 830 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: of kind of including mythology and fairy tales into these 831 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: more like modern stories of like you know, people interacting 832 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: with like government, law enforcement, and then just you know, 833 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,080 Speaker 1: breaking down their own psyches under these heightensed situations. Yeah, 834 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: I mean I think it. I think it came initially 835 00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,799 Speaker 1: with her story of yeah, thinking about the kind of 836 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,560 Speaker 1: meta storytelling nous of these things, right of the expense 837 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,720 Speaker 1: which their experiments and like how we tell stories, um 838 00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 1: and but a lot of times, like the myths and 839 00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,319 Speaker 1: the the kind of classic stories that people go to 840 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:59,319 Speaker 1: those right to try and understand the bigger questions or 841 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 1: certainly like um, I guess partly came out of the 842 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: start of first story. I had like two youngest kids, 843 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 1: and you're so you're reading them all the classic stories 844 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 1: and you realize the extent to which these are just 845 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,200 Speaker 1: encoding our society's values. Right. But I had this incredible 846 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:23,200 Speaker 1: book that was my parents got for me, and I 847 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: tracked down and made sure we still had when I 848 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,959 Speaker 1: had my kids. That was called it was like folk 849 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,160 Speaker 1: tales of the people's of the Soviet Republic from like 850 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: the early eighties, and it was collected like a lot 851 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,319 Speaker 1: of it was. It was Ukrainian folk tales, and they 852 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: were amazing because they were so dark. Like the message 853 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: of each of these stories was trust nobody. The rich 854 00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:49,640 Speaker 1: will always win, you will end up dead and unhappy, right, 855 00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 1: And each story would start with the poor peasant his 856 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 1: brother gets rich, he asks for help. The brother like 857 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:01,080 Speaker 1: is horrible. Like there's one story where there's this brother 858 00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:04,200 Speaker 1: who's like, oh, if you want some grain because you're starving, 859 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: and then gouge out your own eye and I'll give 860 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,360 Speaker 1: you some grain. And then it comes back from more 861 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: grain later and he's like, gauge out your other eye. Now, 862 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: chop off your hand. And it's like they're so dark, 863 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: and I'm like, but this is reflecting what it was 864 00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,680 Speaker 1: like to live in that world and grew up and 865 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:25,680 Speaker 1: you're preparing people for the realities. So um, you know, 866 00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: I think that to me was really interesting in and 867 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 1: her story tells this story that kind of to some extent, 868 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 1: grows out of this childhood and then we're tell him lies. Definitely, 869 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:40,240 Speaker 1: it was part of this idea of of, yeah, how 870 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: Logan's character David sees the world and relates to his 871 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,400 Speaker 1: part in it and like his utter inability to realize 872 00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: that he's the bad guy in the story, right, and yeah, 873 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:54,120 Speaker 1: he's the good guy. Um. And and that was like 874 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,600 Speaker 1: that was partly the key to breaking his character. And 875 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: it was his daughter. So he has this character who's 876 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: this six seven year old daughter and that's like, you know, 877 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 1: he lets down and does horrible things to a whole 878 00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,480 Speaker 1: bunch of people. Um, but the thing he's not going 879 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,560 Speaker 1: to be able to get over is knowing that he's 880 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,799 Speaker 1: laid his daughter down, right, knowing that at some point 881 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 1: she will grow up and be an adult woman who 882 00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,000 Speaker 1: if she learns about what her father has done, we'll 883 00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: we'll think less of him and you know, we'll realize 884 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,719 Speaker 1: that he's the bad guy in the fairy tale whatever. 885 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,719 Speaker 1: So um, that was like just interesting to me to 886 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,239 Speaker 1: set him in that moment and have him reading those 887 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:37,560 Speaker 1: stories and see see his relationship with his daughter. Um 888 00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think that that ye just relating those 889 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,840 Speaker 1: things back to what are these these kind of base values, 890 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,600 Speaker 1: and so much of those foe tales is preparing you 891 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:51,160 Speaker 1: for the fact that people are going to lie to 892 00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:53,520 Speaker 1: you and trick you and you know all those kind 893 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:57,359 Speaker 1: of aspects. Yeah. Well a lot of them do deal with, like, 894 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, failures of trusting people and you know, getting 895 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 1: getting let down and being misled. A lot a lot 896 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,000 Speaker 1: of those do kind of follow on these same same 897 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: kind of rough templates. UM, let's see, is there anything 898 00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,640 Speaker 1: you're working on now that you wanna that you wanna 899 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,560 Speaker 1: plug um, And of course you know people should pick 900 00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,600 Speaker 1: up Telling Lies her story. UM. I have them on Steam. 901 00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,879 Speaker 1: I think they are best suited to be playing on PC, 902 00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: but you can get them on console. We can get 903 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:28,120 Speaker 1: them on iOS. But in any anything anything upcoming. Yeah, 904 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:34,320 Speaker 1: we're working on currently this project called Immortality UM which 905 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: is very ambitious. Uh. It will be out next year. 906 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,759 Speaker 1: It deals with the story of an actress who only 907 00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 1: ever made three movies the latter half the twentieth century UM, 908 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,799 Speaker 1: and then disappeared. And we have recovered footage from these 909 00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: three movies. UM. It. It's been interesting because with Telling Lies, like, 910 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: I've always been someone that m when I think about 911 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,400 Speaker 1: the kinds of stories I want to tell I've always 912 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: thought that I'm not a capital P politics person, right, 913 00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: I tend to be interested in how people relate to 914 00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,760 Speaker 1: each other and some of the kind of smaller politics. 915 00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:15,560 Speaker 1: Um And once I got to telling lies, it was like, oh, actually, 916 00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:20,480 Speaker 1: like there is some capital P politics tied to all this, 917 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,440 Speaker 1: and so dug into that was like, well, so I 918 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: want to do right by this, right, So we did 919 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 1: involve speaking to lots of people, didn't involve bringing in 920 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,000 Speaker 1: all the research and everything. Um So, coming away from 921 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 1: telling lies, and as I mean, it was making the 922 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: game was insane because it was during Trump Trump happens, 923 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,760 Speaker 1: and I remember going into it thing like we're making 924 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,920 Speaker 1: this story about the FBI being bad. That's a pretty 925 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,319 Speaker 1: reasonable endpoint. And then once we hit Trump, you had 926 00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 1: all that stuff of like the good FBI agents and 927 00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,359 Speaker 1: theory or the FBI might be the people that bring 928 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: Trump down and suddenly they it was leaning into the 929 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:01,759 Speaker 1: myth of the FBI and I'll stick down it and 930 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: just everything getting worse, and it was like, oh, this 931 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,360 Speaker 1: is like so intense to be making something and speaking 932 00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,920 Speaker 1: to some of these issues whilst this is all happening. 933 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: Um So, finishing that I was like, well, Okay, for 934 00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:19,760 Speaker 1: the next project, we are definitely going away from talking 935 00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,440 Speaker 1: about real life issues and capital p politics, and then 936 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:27,600 Speaker 1: just accidentally it's become because we're talking about an actress 937 00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:32,320 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century and what it means to make movies, 938 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:38,479 Speaker 1: and ah, digging into that suddenly becomes about a whole 939 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:43,120 Speaker 1: other bunch of systemic issues. So yeah, not not managed 940 00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: to avoid the politics again, but it's it's been a 941 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,360 Speaker 1: really really interesting project. I think. I think once you 942 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,200 Speaker 1: crack that egg open of realizing that politics are kind 943 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,640 Speaker 1: of intrinsic to every story we tell, it's hard to hand. 944 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,440 Speaker 1: It's hard to kind of put that back in the box. 945 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,759 Speaker 1: Because once you realize you can use politics and a 946 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,000 Speaker 1: very interesting and calm storytelling way that still doesn't relily 947 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,799 Speaker 1: need a lot of audiences, it's like, oh, yeah, this 948 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,600 Speaker 1: is just using another way to interact with the world. 949 00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,239 Speaker 1: I think that was that was one of the things 950 00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: that were slightly disappointing. I guess We're telling lies was 951 00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,279 Speaker 1: like we were working on it, I'm like, well, to 952 00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:17,399 Speaker 1: make sure we get these things right, because like, these 953 00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 1: are very important issues and there are some nuances, and 954 00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:23,640 Speaker 1: so we you know, we don't want to accidentally say 955 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:25,959 Speaker 1: something that is incorrect, or we don't want to give 956 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,359 Speaker 1: people the impression that we're you know, yeah yeah, yeah wrong. 957 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:33,799 Speaker 1: So I was expecting some level of scrutiny in terms 958 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,319 Speaker 1: of discussing the games themes and everything, um, and I 959 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,960 Speaker 1: guess like the video games world is still not quite 960 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,640 Speaker 1: ready for that. Like they're quite happy to talk about 961 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: the game mechanics and how this thing will work since 962 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:49,560 Speaker 1: a big picture emotional responses, but no one's willing to 963 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:53,040 Speaker 1: kind of dig deeper. And we had like as the 964 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: game was coming out and continues to be, you have 965 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,160 Speaker 1: the bigger name developers being like there's no politics and 966 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,720 Speaker 1: our video games as they're like invading make a game 967 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,319 Speaker 1: about you know, being a black Ops unit taking down 968 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,319 Speaker 1: communist countries. We're not gonna abou politics. We're gonna yeah 969 00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:15,360 Speaker 1: that constantly a constantly just saying it's it's possible, and 970 00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,440 Speaker 1: they'll always say we we both sides it right, Well, 971 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,640 Speaker 1: we'll tell both sides and let people make the decision. 972 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,920 Speaker 1: And something that I was very adamant was very imported 973 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:26,680 Speaker 1: to me on telling lies was like, if we're making 974 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:31,240 Speaker 1: this game, it is not the point of the game 975 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,719 Speaker 1: is not to give you a mush of information and 976 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:40,279 Speaker 1: have you decide the moral yeah, you know, good or bad? 977 00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,920 Speaker 1: Something like. We are going into this with the assumption 978 00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,040 Speaker 1: that we and the audience or most of the audience 979 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 1: believe that people doing these things are wrong, and then 980 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 1: we're just And then I'm interested in what does it 981 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: due to the people, What what is it like to 982 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,720 Speaker 1: be in this world? What are the consequences of ramifications? 983 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 1: How does one exist, ist and continue to live a 984 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:04,520 Speaker 1: life after having been involved in these things? So, for me, 985 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 1: a political game is it can't be a political story 986 00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,439 Speaker 1: in any media. It can't be going back to first 987 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,759 Speaker 1: principles pretending we're in debate club, because I just I 988 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,839 Speaker 1: think that's just that's absolutely lies the audience. I think 989 00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:22,160 Speaker 1: you can say a political story is one which embraces 990 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,239 Speaker 1: and acknowledges the reality of the various power struggles and 991 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,920 Speaker 1: inequalities that we have and and then has something to 992 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,239 Speaker 1: say about or has a particular angle it wants to interrogate, 993 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: or something it wants to shed light on. Um. But 994 00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 1: it's very childish and I think we're definitely struggling with 995 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 1: this in video games. To be like, oh, if it's 996 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,880 Speaker 1: about politics, then it should be a big question and 997 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,359 Speaker 1: we should assume no answers, right, And it's like, yeah, 998 00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,399 Speaker 1: this is a completely bullshit and and it kind of 999 00:55:49,560 --> 00:55:52,080 Speaker 1: it can lead to some problematic ways, which is why 1000 00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 1: you see a lot of you know, game footage in 1001 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: actual like terrorist propaganda, like with like like with like 1002 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,719 Speaker 1: Nazi the white supremacist stuff, they use a lot of 1003 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,319 Speaker 1: game footage in their propaganda videos when especially when it's 1004 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,440 Speaker 1: like both sides of these issues. Yeah, it's a I 1005 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,680 Speaker 1: have have a particular interest in the intersection between politics, extremism, 1006 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,520 Speaker 1: and gaming because the gaming is very important to our 1007 00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:19,040 Speaker 1: modern kind of extremist ecosystem um, particularly around like four 1008 00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:20,880 Speaker 1: Chan and like you know, like mass shootings. All of 1009 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:23,480 Speaker 1: these things play into game culture. Not not not saying games 1010 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: cause these events to happen, they don't, but like the 1011 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,960 Speaker 1: way they interact with these people is actually interesting. You know. 1012 00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:31,319 Speaker 1: This is very different from like the way like this 1013 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,560 Speaker 1: Senate is like, oh, games are causing mas shooting because 1014 00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:35,200 Speaker 1: they're not. Yeah, I think it's it's it's it's it's 1015 00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 1: it's it's a completely separate thing. It's it's there is 1016 00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 1: there is a Fox News kind of hysteria around gaming. 1017 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,880 Speaker 1: But at the same time, like and and clearly, you know, 1018 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,280 Speaker 1: one way I pitched her story when I was telling 1019 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: people why it was interesting, it's like, this is a 1020 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,319 Speaker 1: game about listening. I was like, that's cool because, you know, 1021 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,160 Speaker 1: whatever you think about the larger politics of it, or 1022 00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,279 Speaker 1: the question of whether video games themselves are inherently MPLO 1023 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,160 Speaker 1: or anything, like, the fact that's still the stories we 1024 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,839 Speaker 1: tell are about someone with a gun in their hand 1025 00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:10,160 Speaker 1: or assorting their hand, and the power dynamics and the story, 1026 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,600 Speaker 1: the types of stories and the types of protagonists, Like, 1027 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:15,920 Speaker 1: it's screwed up. And I think to the same extent 1028 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 1: that the fact that, like the Marvel Cinematic Universe is 1029 00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,520 Speaker 1: about a bunch of glorified cops going around saying the 1030 00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 1: world like, you know, if you continue to reinforce these things, Yeah, 1031 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:31,840 Speaker 1: all of the art we make are saying certain things 1032 00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,600 Speaker 1: about the world, and we're reinforcing a certain narrative over 1033 00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,240 Speaker 1: and over again and not really thinking critically about it. Yeah, 1034 00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,240 Speaker 1: that's the problem with making art. I mean, I'm not 1035 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,200 Speaker 1: trying to conference being anti gamer. I would play a 1036 00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,040 Speaker 1: lot of games. I really like gaming. I just think 1037 00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:49,880 Speaker 1: some some companies need to figure out why why certain 1038 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:54,240 Speaker 1: games are used in mass shooting manifestoes in certain games 1039 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,040 Speaker 1: aren't um particularly around like politics like this is a 1040 00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:00,320 Speaker 1: particularly particularly talking about like white supremacy and how certain 1041 00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:03,040 Speaker 1: games kind of playing too certain things. Because even even 1042 00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:04,680 Speaker 1: a game like Wolf in Stein, which I think handles 1043 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:07,360 Speaker 1: this topic very well, still will you know, get brought 1044 00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:10,000 Speaker 1: up in certain you know, propaganda videos because they do 1045 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,400 Speaker 1: have cool shots and Nazis walking around, right, that's the 1046 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:15,640 Speaker 1: kind of the problem with some of these things. Um 1047 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:17,520 Speaker 1: And you know, if they weren't killing if Nazis weren't 1048 00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,080 Speaker 1: killing people as much as wouldn't be as much of 1049 00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,600 Speaker 1: a problem. But because that's still a thing, that's still 1050 00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:24,520 Speaker 1: a thing that needs to get talked about. Anyway, this 1051 00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,400 Speaker 1: this this took a very sad sad turned towards the 1052 00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 1: end of anyway. Yeah, I but I will I will 1053 00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:35,800 Speaker 1: just strongly recommend playing her story, playing telling lies. I 1054 00:58:35,840 --> 00:58:42,280 Speaker 1: think these games, you know, interrogate our our predispositions about 1055 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,600 Speaker 1: about kind of police detective work. Um and you just 1056 00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:47,840 Speaker 1: get to learn a lot. You get to learn a 1057 00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 1: lot about like people on characters because like a lot 1058 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,520 Speaker 1: of these games, you know, are the setup is like, oh, 1059 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,560 Speaker 1: solve this crime or mystery, but then by the end 1060 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,640 Speaker 1: you're solving a very different mystery and you're kind of 1061 00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,920 Speaker 1: solving what makes the person tick. And it's very You've 1062 00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:01,240 Speaker 1: I really like the ark that you have in your games. 1063 00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:04,360 Speaker 1: They've brought me a lot of happiness. So thank you. 1064 00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,640 Speaker 1: Thank you for that, and thank you for talking with 1065 00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,680 Speaker 1: all of us, um about your work, I mean doing it. 1066 00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,040 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you for having me and uh yeah, 1067 00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,160 Speaker 1: like I say, I was, I was hoping to have 1068 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:21,200 Speaker 1: hundreds more conversations about what Telling Lies was about and 1069 00:59:21,480 --> 00:59:24,280 Speaker 1: about these issues when it came out. But it's uh, 1070 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,240 Speaker 1: you know that, it's I mean, it's hot just general 1071 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,400 Speaker 1: media landscape now, like you put something out there and 1072 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:34,200 Speaker 1: it comes out and people consume it, Yeah, move on, 1073 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: Like you don't have that. It's bad of like discussion 1074 00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:41,760 Speaker 1: that that. I don't know, it feels like it used 1075 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:43,520 Speaker 1: to used to be a thing. Yeah, I think it 1076 00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,680 Speaker 1: definitely did. It used to be a thing. And definitely 1077 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:50,280 Speaker 1: your games have had an influence on media in certain ways. 1078 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,080 Speaker 1: And I know there's been like a few other like 1079 00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:54,360 Speaker 1: projects that like Netflix is doing that is kind of 1080 00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:58,880 Speaker 1: taking your concept but not really doing it correctly. Yeah, 1081 00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,360 Speaker 1: they're coming now. Yeah, there's definitely been a lot. Yeah. 1082 01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,200 Speaker 1: People always send me them. They're like, oh, this sounds 1083 01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,960 Speaker 1: a lot like a story, this thing, and it's like, oh, 1084 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:10,560 Speaker 1: but it's it's built non linear. Yeah, exactly like you 1085 01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:13,960 Speaker 1: let people don't ye. Usually it's like watch there are 1086 01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,000 Speaker 1: eight episodes. You can watch them in any order, which 1087 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,800 Speaker 1: isn't how her story works. No, Yeah, like, yeah, there's 1088 01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:20,440 Speaker 1: there's a Yeah, there's a whole different thing going on. 1089 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,320 Speaker 1: But no, I mean it's it's interesting times for that 1090 01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,760 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But anyway, play these games on Steam 1091 01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,120 Speaker 1: and that that doesn't for today. You can follow the 1092 01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,000 Speaker 1: show on Twitter and Instagram at Happening here, pod and 1093 01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,440 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Do you have Do you have a 1094 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,360 Speaker 1: social media that you would like to plug or would 1095 01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:43,280 Speaker 1: your people if people are on Twitter, that's where I 1096 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:47,360 Speaker 1: tend to be despite its Yeah, I know I am. 1097 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,600 Speaker 1: I am Mr Sambalo on Twitter, Ma Sambal. I will 1098 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,240 Speaker 1: say I I actually actually do like your Twitter account. 1099 01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,720 Speaker 1: You do? You do post some fun stuff every once 1100 01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:01,320 Speaker 1: in a while. That's that's kind of a weird contescen 1101 01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,720 Speaker 1: thing we think to say of anyway, Bye for Punny. 1102 01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:10,800 Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 1103 01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:13,720 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website 1104 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:15,880 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 1105 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,440 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1106 01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:21,240 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 1107 01:01:21,280 --> 01:01:24,280 Speaker 1: Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media dot com 1108 01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,240 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.