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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 4: News broke yesterday that Homeland Security Secretary Christy Nome had

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Speaker 4: three thousand dollars worth of cash stolen out of her

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Speaker 4: purse at a restaurant here in downtown DC. We could

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Speaker 4: put that first element up on the screen. This is

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Speaker 4: a report from CNN.

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Speaker 5: That lays out exactly what happened.

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Speaker 4: I'm just going to read from the story Department of

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Speaker 4: Homeland Security Secretary Christinomes fell victim to a thief while

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Speaker 4: eating dinner at a downtown DC restaurant Sunday night. The

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Speaker 4: secretary confirmed Monday, Gnome, who has asked about the theft

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Speaker 4: at the Easter egg roll, acknowledged the incident and said

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Speaker 4: the matter has not been resolved. The thief got away

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Speaker 4: with Nom's driver's license, medication, apartment keys, passport, DHS access badge,

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Speaker 4: makeup bag, blank checks, and about three thousand dollars in cash.

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Speaker 5: Now.

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Speaker 4: A DHS spokesperson explained this to CNN by saying her

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Speaker 4: entire family was in town, including her children and grandchildren.

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Speaker 4: She was using the withdrawal, referring obviously to the three

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars of cash to treat her family to dinner

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Speaker 4: activities and Easter gifts. Now, I do want to also

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Speaker 4: put the next element up on the screen. This is

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Speaker 4: a post from Susan Crabtree, who is one of the

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Speaker 4: best reporters on the White House Beat period. She says

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Speaker 4: this appears to be yet another significant Secret Service failure.

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Speaker 4: The agent's protecting Noome allowed a man in a medical

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Speaker 4: mask to walk by her table and snatch her purse

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Speaker 4: with three thousand dollars in it. Susan goes on to

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Speaker 4: say the detailed leader of nome secret service team should

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Speaker 4: have been sitting within ten feet of her one or

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Speaker 4: two tables away according to USSS protocol. Why aren't we

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Speaker 4: hearing that a Secret Service agent tried to intervene or

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Speaker 4: at least chased the man down, Sager, This is such

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Speaker 4: a bizarre story. I don't know if you've ever been

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Speaker 4: to the restaurant. This is Capital Burger, So it's by

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Speaker 4: the Convention Center, across from the Apple Store that's walked by.

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Speaker 5: The Carnegie Library.

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Speaker 1: Turned, I know exactly what we're talking about.

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Speaker 5: You know, it's actually a pretty good restaurant.

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Speaker 1: But all right, shoutout Capitolah.

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Speaker 5: Shoutout Capitol Burg.

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Speaker 4: But so bizarre that you have a cabinet secretary sitting

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Speaker 4: to dinner with Secret Service having her purse snatch. Now

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Speaker 4: there's another layer of weirdness by the fact that you

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Speaker 4: had three grand in CAP's a lot of money, and

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Speaker 4: her passport on her weird to perhaps to get into

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Speaker 4: the White House even though you're a cabinet secretary, may

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Speaker 4: still need something like that. I have no idea, but

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Speaker 4: it's extremely weird that Secret Service should be sitting within

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Speaker 4: ten feet of her. Yes, again, this is a presidential

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Speaker 4: candidate was shot in the head not even a year ago.

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Speaker 3: I mean, she's a top law enforcement officer in the county.

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Speaker 3: I don't think people understand this insane. You literally is

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Speaker 3: the boss of the largest law enforcement agency in the

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Speaker 3: United States.

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Speaker 5: Homeland Security.

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Speaker 4: They can't secure the Secretary of Homeland Security in the

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Speaker 4: nation's capital about five blocks from the White House.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, look, maybe she was targeted because maybe she

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Speaker 3: was targeted because of her notorious like flashy taste. So

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Speaker 3: we were, by the way, for watch nerds, she was rockin'

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Speaker 3: ofx a solid gold Rolex Daytona, which is for anybody

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Speaker 3: familiar with watches, you're like, whoa, I mean, that's a

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Speaker 3: minimum of twenty five fifty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: That's got to be one of them.

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Speaker 3: That is one of that is the ultimate rich guy

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Speaker 3: flex is a Rolex Daytona. And then yeah, even the

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Speaker 3: women's ones, they can really climb up there in price.

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Speaker 3: So she's previously worn a Rolex Daytona.

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Speaker 1: I think no, I mean just traditionally women's watches.

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Speaker 3: Are not worth this much because people they don't they're

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Speaker 3: no idiots like me, We're willing to pay. But anyways,

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Speaker 3: kars No is Karsy nome top law enforcement officer in

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Speaker 3: the country. The whole thing is just bizarre because it's,

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Speaker 3: like you said, she has a protection detail which is

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Speaker 3: supposed to be immediately within her vicinity, three thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: in cash, driver's license, and apartment keys stolen while she's

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Speaker 3: eating dinner at the downtown. You also have the department

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Speaker 3: there where there's you know, theoretically, if you think about it,

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Speaker 3: like there's tons of classified information on her phone or

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Speaker 3: possibly in her purse, like notes, other access keys. All

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Speaker 3: cabinet secretaries have like this specific type of phone. I

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Speaker 3: forget the name. I used to know what the name

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Speaker 3: of it is, but it's like a name. It's a

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Speaker 3: phone SPECI typically, which can have like your it's like

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Speaker 3: your outlook for classified information.

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Speaker 1: But it's heavily restricted.

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Speaker 3: Like there's only like fifty or sixty of these phones

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Speaker 3: in the whole US government. It's literally only for top

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Speaker 3: cabinet secretaries and I think like one or two other officials.

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Speaker 3: So that I think it's called high side.

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Speaker 1: That's what it is.

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Speaker 5: Well, maybe that was taken and we don't know.

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Speaker 4: Maybe they're not calling in the press, so we're relying

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Speaker 4: on them to tell us what was storn.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so the high side is that's like the communication apparatus.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, that's what these people were supposed

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Speaker 3: to be using instead of signal.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I was just going to see actually, and that they're like,

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Speaker 3: so this is in your high side email. That's what

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about here, That's what the high side is.

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Speaker 3: So you can see that clearly there's like a major

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Speaker 3: security like breach that happened here. But I mean, just broadly,

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Speaker 3: it's one of those where the veneer every time of

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Speaker 3: like the veneer of the protection around these individuals gets pierced.

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Speaker 1: I think is really bad.

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Speaker 3: That was what we really saw with the Trump attempted assassination,

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Speaker 3: where you're like, dude, like this guy got this close

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Speaker 3: to the president and only by Trump turning his head

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Speaker 3: does his head not explode on line live television. And

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Speaker 3: then you know, we had previous incidents in the Obama

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Speaker 3: administration where people jump the fence and there's just this

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Speaker 3: mystery and like hollywoodization about the professionalism of a lot

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Speaker 3: of the people who protect these people. But then in reality,

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Speaker 3: you know, of average thief is able to just tell

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Speaker 3: your purse when you're going and you're like, uh, in

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Speaker 3: front of Secret Service well, don't forget this. Jake Sullivan,

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Speaker 3: the National Security Advisor under Joe Biden, was in his

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Speaker 3: house working at three am in the morning and a

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Speaker 3: guy broke into his house and was in his kitchen

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Speaker 3: completely passed the Secret Service detail, and Sullivan, only because

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Speaker 3: he was awake, came downstairs and he's like, who are you?

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Speaker 3: He's like, what's going on here? I had to call

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Speaker 3: his own detail to come and get this guy out

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Speaker 3: of there. I mean, that's extraordinary breach. This is just

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Speaker 3: a number of these types of incidents where people get

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Speaker 3: incredibly close to these individuals and you're just like, well,

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Speaker 3: I mean, what's going to happen right as a result.

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Speaker 3: And it's not a joke obviously, because as the top

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Speaker 3: law enforcement officer in the country, you also have I mean,

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Speaker 3: there's so many different figures like this, who are all

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Speaker 3: about Washington. I just saw a picture of a I

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Speaker 3: saw a video of Kennedy yesterday walking out of Martin's

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Speaker 3: stee with Martin's with the Saratoga water bottle. So a

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Speaker 3: little bit too on the nose for me personally, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: so like he's obviously a very hye profile figure. His

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Speaker 3: father was literally assassinated. I mean, what is the like,

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Speaker 3: what you know, what is the protocol around protecting these individuals.

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Speaker 1: It's really dangerous.

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Speaker 4: It's so dangerous. And this is in the middle of

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Speaker 4: a reckoning period for Secret Service. I mean, remember after

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Speaker 4: the Trump assassination attempt, they were hauled in front of

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Speaker 4: Congress and gave all of these testimonies and pledged.

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Speaker 5: First of all, they blamed local.

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Speaker 4: Police, but then also pledged to put in reforms and

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Speaker 4: be better. And how this is not this is less

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Speaker 4: than a year from a presidential candidate being shot in

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Speaker 4: the head on live television. Christineolman was not at a rally.

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Speaker 4: She was at a restaurant with Secret Service at least

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Speaker 4: supposed to be within ten feet of her. And it

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Speaker 4: sounds like from the news report that they didn't know

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Speaker 4: her purse was stolen until they reviewed the security camera footage,

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Speaker 4: that they literally had to go back look at the

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Speaker 4: footage to notice that someone swiped the Homeland Security Secretary's

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Speaker 4: purse in the middle of a busy restaurant when the

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Speaker 4: entire purpose of Secret Service is to have eyes on

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Speaker 4: her and her belongings. Another thing to mention is that

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Speaker 4: during Signalgate, one of the points. I think it was

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Speaker 4: Jeffrey Goldberg who made this and loathesion to say it,

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Speaker 4: he's completely correct. One of the problems with signal is

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Speaker 4: that someone gets your phone. If someone took Jeffrey Goldberg's phone,

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Speaker 4: he would have had these signal messages on it. If

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Speaker 4: someone took Pete Hecceas's phone, he would have had these,

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Speaker 4: or Susie Wilds's phone, they would have. Then if they

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Speaker 4: stole their purse and they had a phone in it,

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Speaker 4: for example, they would have had access to the signal

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Speaker 4: messages about the strikes. Like if you are a bad

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Speaker 4: actor who wants to penetrate the circle of the president,

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Speaker 4: of the decision makers of the US government, of our military,

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Speaker 4: and you see the Homeland Security Secretary having her passport

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Speaker 4: lifted at a freaking Burger restaurant five blocks from the

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Speaker 4: White House, I mean, this is an embarrassment there should

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Speaker 4: be to your point. Is the last thing I'll say

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Speaker 4: about this. This social fabric can be disrupted very very severely,

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Speaker 4: very quickly by security breaches that they could be assassinations,

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Speaker 4: they could be close brushes with assassinations, they could be

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Speaker 4: access to the classmen.

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Speaker 5: Whatever it is.

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Speaker 4: The country already feels like it is teetering on the

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Speaker 4: edge of something.

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Speaker 5: Very very dark.

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Speaker 3: I totally agree, it's insane. You're right, top cabinet officials

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Speaker 3: and all that. I mean, who just think about the

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Speaker 3: consequences of a security breach and all. We came close

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Speaker 3: with the Trump attempted assassination, and yeah, ever since then,

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Speaker 3: it's just been a spotlight in this organization.

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Speaker 1: You would think that they would tighten.

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Speaker 3: Things up, but it really looks more as if it's

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Speaker 3: because not because of their competence, but because of you know,

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Speaker 3: like nothing has just happened all of that yet.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, all right, tell us about motherhood. What's happening?

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Speaker 4: Yes, as the only childless host of breaking points, I

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Speaker 4: thought it would be a not for me to handle.

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Speaker 3: Still technically childless, I guess, well, it's cooking. It's still

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Speaker 3: got you know, one or two more days. By the way,

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Speaker 3: I would like for it to go ahead and hurry out,

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Speaker 3: but it is what it is.

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Speaker 5: You get that, right, Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right.

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Speaker 4: So let's turn to this big story in the New

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Speaker 4: York Times yesterday that laid out exactly what the Trump

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Speaker 4: administration is planning to do in order to make good

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Speaker 4: on Donald Trump's pledge to create a quote baby boom

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Speaker 4: in the United States of America. We can put this

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Speaker 4: first element up on the screen. The New York Times

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Speaker 4: published a big feature yesterday digging into exactly how the

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Speaker 4: administration is approaching this. You can see the headline is

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Speaker 4: White House assesses ways to persuade children to have just

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Speaker 4: persuade women to have more children. Emma Waters from the

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Speaker 4: Heritage Foundation is featured in the pho there.

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Speaker 5: I think we both know we her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, old friend of mine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, as a real actually really interesting thinker. First graph

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Speaker 4: of the story. The White House has been hearing out

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Speaker 4: a course of ideas in recent weeks for persuading Americans

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Speaker 4: to get married and have more children. And early sign

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Speaker 4: that the Trump administration will embrace a new cultural agenda, which,

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Speaker 4: by the way, I took issue with that line in

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Speaker 4: the story.

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Speaker 5: By the way, a quote.

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Speaker 4: Early sign that the Trump administration will embrace a new

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Speaker 4: cultural agenda.

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Speaker 5: Are you kidding me? There's been so many signs that.

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Speaker 4: The Trump administration will embrace this new cultural agenda. One

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Speaker 4: proposed one proposal shared with AIDS, would preserve thirty percent

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Speaker 4: of scholarships for the Fulbright program for applicants who are

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Speaker 4: married or have children. Another would give a five thousand

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Speaker 4: dollar cash quote baby bonus to every American mother after delivery.

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Speaker 4: A third calls on the government and this is saga

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Speaker 4: where I know you have all kinds of thoughts and

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Speaker 4: are excited to weigh in to fund programs that educate

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Speaker 4: women on their menstrual cycles.

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Speaker 5: Sager specifically pitched the story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, that was what I NO.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to discuss it with you because we've both

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Speaker 3: been involved in some of these discussions now for quite

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Speaker 3: some time pro natalism, and you know, I think it's

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Speaker 3: difficult for me to It's difficult because I think four

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Speaker 3: or five years ago when I started to hear this

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Speaker 3: stuff and policy like in Hungary right where they're like, oh,

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Speaker 3: we'll pay off your mortgage if you have four kids,

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Speaker 3: you don't have to pay any tax and no income tax.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, wow, this is fantastic. Here's the truth,

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Speaker 3: though it hasn't worked Hungary. It just it didn't work.

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Speaker 3: And by the way, this is not a knock on Hungry.

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Speaker 3: It's a noble effort. But the truth is is it

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Speaker 3: doesn't work in any form that it takes. It's in

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Speaker 3: every developed country in the world, even with socialized medicine,

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Speaker 3: better health care and childcare than we could ever imagine,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't work. It's like a product of industrial capitalism.

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Speaker 3: It's like industrial capitalism itself is the is the main

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Speaker 3: engine of this. Yeah, I mean, if you really want

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Speaker 3: me to put my red hat on right now, but.

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Speaker 5: I mean, even then, let's talk about the Soviet.

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Speaker 3: Union, like we saw the destruction there of birth rates

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Speaker 3: and of you know, were talking about for example, can.

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Speaker 5: We put the next element up on the screenplase?

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Speaker 4: So the producers made this great graphic just sort of

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Speaker 4: talking about the specifics of what has been proposed by

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Speaker 4: people in these circles. So we talked about the five

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Speaker 4: thousand dollars cash baby bonus to every American mother after delivery,

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Speaker 4: fund programs that educate women on their mentrual cycles and

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Speaker 4: parts so they can better understand when they're ovulating and

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Speaker 4: able to conceive. And let me just briefly pause on

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Speaker 4: that point. The idea behind that is to basically undercut

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Speaker 4: the power of birth control, which people in the circles believe.

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Speaker 4: I think it's a pretty good argument, actually has affected

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Speaker 4: women's fertility. Women get married later, meaning they're on birth

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Speaker 4: control for longer and longer periods of their life, which

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Speaker 4: makes it harder to ultimately conceive when they want to

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Speaker 4: because they've married later in their thirties and that's already

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Speaker 4: harder off the bat. So that's the idea behind it.

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Speaker 4: You know, is it going to be a tough sell. Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: Is it the role of the federal government. That is

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Speaker 4: a different conversation that we can have, but just to

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Speaker 4: sort of explain some of the.

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Speaker 5: Thinking, that's where it comes from.

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Speaker 4: And then three, this gets to what Soccer was just

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Speaker 4: talking about, bestowing a special mother a medal, a special

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Speaker 4: medal on mothers of six or more children.

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Speaker 1: So basically all the Mormons.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well all the Mormons, and this you were about

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Speaker 4: to elude because you were talking about how the Soviet

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Speaker 4: Union looked at policies like these, and particularly that policy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, the metal like the hero of the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 3: if you had more than four more children, and guess

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Speaker 3: what didn't worry if anything, Actually, the fertility rate fell

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Speaker 3: off a cliff even more after the decline of the

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Speaker 3: Soviet Union and the ushering in of their nineteen nineties

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Speaker 3: like disaster capitalism, so have a run in front of

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Speaker 3: me of all of the programs which have even been

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Speaker 3: moderately successful.

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Speaker 1: So France's highest.

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Speaker 3: Birth rate in all of Western Europe one point eight,

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Speaker 3: so still not above replacement. They have up to three

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Speaker 3: years of paternity leave, a parental leaf up to three years.

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Speaker 3: They have monthly child allowances which are not means tested.

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Speaker 3: They have huge tax bet fits. They have massively subsidized childcare,

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Speaker 3: which is actually good like people who are very well

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Speaker 3: trained and they give them very nutritious food. They have

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Speaker 3: a quote cultural normalization of working mothers. They're still only

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Speaker 3: at one point eight and a lot of that, let's

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Speaker 3: be honest, is because of the immigration pop population number

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Speaker 3: two the Swedish, Swedish and Nordic countries. These places have

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Speaker 3: universal childcare, job security protection. They have parental lead that

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Speaker 3: you're like required to basically take culturally for a year.

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Speaker 3: Guess what doesn't work parentally hungary? Probably the thing like

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Speaker 3: the one country which threw everything massive cash incentives thirty

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Speaker 3: thousand eurolone for young couples who are for partially forgiven

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Speaker 3: per child, lifetime income tax tax exemption from mothers of

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Speaker 3: four kids, home buying subsidies, free IVF slight increase, only

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Speaker 3: a one point six in the overall birth right need

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Speaker 3: two point two just to be above like I can

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Speaker 3: go on forever. Russia, same thing they tried in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 3: It's actually declined so far. War doesn't help. Actually, again,

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Speaker 3: the only country developed in the world that hasn't above

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Speaker 3: replacement fertility rate is Israel, even amongst even amongst their

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Speaker 3: secular Jewish population. Nobody really knows why. I mean, look,

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Speaker 3: they do have a lot of policies, like they've got

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Speaker 3: norms exclude the orthodoxyg.

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Speaker 5: It's there's an existential fear.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's like existential yes, yeah, that's a good point.

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Speaker 3: It's literally like a civilization. That's like if we do

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Speaker 3: not reproduce, where our land will be taken away from us.

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Speaker 1: Right, But they have the same thing.

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Speaker 3: They have state funded IVF, they have generous family allowances,

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Speaker 3: they have universal health care, they've got big you know,

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Speaker 3: cultural norms favoring shows the favor good to Israel's kids everywhere.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 3: But my point just on all of us is it's

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Speaker 3: not policy, it's just culture. And I hate to say that.

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Speaker 3: I wish if it were a policy problem, we could

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Speaker 3: fix it, but at best you can squeeze. He's like

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Speaker 3: a point three or a point four. I mean that's

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Speaker 3: a lot, exactly, But I mean even then, you have

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Speaker 3: to rewrite the social contract of the entire United States. Now,

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Speaker 3: I'll also be clear, I would be in favor of

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Speaker 3: many of these policies even if it only did point

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Speaker 3: three point four. It is because it makes life easier

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Speaker 3: for even when you have one or two children. I mean,

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Speaker 3: going through this process right now, Oh, five thousand dollars. Thanks,

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Speaker 3: I'll consider covering a portion of my deductible, which.

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Speaker 1: Is just gonna be just for childbirth. Right.

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Speaker 3: I really appreciate you cover it even though I pay

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Speaker 3: like five hundred dollars a month.

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Speaker 1: Awesome, dad, soccer.

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Speaker 4: Is gonna be so much fun. I'm to be so

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Speaker 4: much money. It's just like already an old mess.

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Speaker 3: This is part of my blue magat turn. It's like,

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Speaker 3: oh great, now my strollers more expensive. The car seat

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Speaker 3: is going to be more expensive. I'm lucky I bought

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Speaker 3: all this stuff before the tariffs.

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Speaker 5: But there's a lot of people out there.

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Speaker 1: They don't have any money.

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Speaker 5: Those are investments, right, Yeah, you can flip those.

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Speaker 3: And oh this shit only lasts for six months. Great,

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Speaker 3: now I have to go Actually a good point. I

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Speaker 3: should probably buy my infant strollers steep right now before

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Speaker 3: the tariffs and all of that go up, because I

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Speaker 3: was gonna wait, guess I can't.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm just saying, like.

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Speaker 4: Already getting grumpy text messages from Socger. But the cost

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Speaker 4: of shit, that's true, that's true. You should you know berries.

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Speaker 3: I mean, these kids, they're like Barry machines the amount

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Speaker 3: that they're buying there, and drum For wants to put

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Speaker 3: a ten percent tariff on them.

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Speaker 1: I could go on forever joking.

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Speaker 3: My point is just looking at these policies, I think

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Speaker 3: they're very noble. I think it's a good idea. However,

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Speaker 3: it is not a magic bullet.

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Speaker 1: It's just not.

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Speaker 3: And the truth is is that every developed society in

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Speaker 3: the world just has a low birth rate. And there's

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Speaker 3: just something about the comfort of industrial capitalism, of the

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Speaker 3: lack of like need for you know, of the lack

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Speaker 3: of like rural you know, area community and all these

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Speaker 3: other things. The truth is is like even here in America,

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Speaker 3: the poorest people have the most kids. It's one of

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Speaker 3: the most like it's the craziest thing is that the

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Speaker 3: people who are the most impacted by it, but who

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Speaker 3: largely have not yet absorbed like all of the cultural

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Speaker 3: milieu of like the middle class lifestyle and vacations and

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Speaker 3: all these other things, are the people who are having

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Speaker 3: the most children. The moment that you assimilate to the

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Speaker 3: higher shuns of American society, you have less children.

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Speaker 1: The only exception is.

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Speaker 3: When you reach the extreme end of the wealth spectrum

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Speaker 3: of like zero point one percent.

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, they don't.

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Speaker 1: They love to get married and.

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Speaker 3: To have children, But that's because they've genuinely exited like

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Speaker 3: US society. It's everybody else in between that You're like, well,

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Speaker 3: people are like, yeah, but I want to go to

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Speaker 3: Disneyland or whatever. I'm like, oh, do you have five

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Speaker 3: thousand bucks if you have four kids?

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Speaker 1: Hope you do? And you're going to be driving? You

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Speaker 1: know you're not. You can't even fly.

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Speaker 4: And to be honest, I don't even think a lot

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Speaker 4: of the economic constraints affect the question of whether people

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Speaker 4: end up going above replacement rate. I think it's genuinely

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Speaker 4: just that when you have a career centric society, you

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Speaker 4: just like that's it's very hard to have three children

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Speaker 4: and that's where we see I think one of the saddest,

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Speaker 4: one of the saddest things that Limonstone has researched, He's

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Speaker 4: quoted in this article with Institute for Family Studies, is

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Speaker 4: that American women actually say that they have.

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Speaker 5: Fewer children than they want.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true, and it's it's because they start later

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Speaker 4: they want in order to have well, not that they want,

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Speaker 4: but they start later so late that they don't end

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Speaker 4: up being able to have as many children as they want.

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Speaker 4: And that's genuinely one of the sadder things. And it's

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Speaker 4: not really a policy at least not in the structure

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Speaker 4: of the policy structure of the American economy right now

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Speaker 4: or in the American government right now. That's not really

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Speaker 4: a policy question. It's much more of a cultural aquation.

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Speaker 1: It's a huge cultural question. It's also about what do

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Speaker 1: you even want? Right like?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, this gets to the whole two income

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Speaker 3: trap and a lot of the problems with the consumption

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Speaker 3: economy and the driving up of the overall consumptive rate

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Speaker 3: of the average family, which necessitates a two person household

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Speaker 3: that has to work. But there are realities here, I mean,

439
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: but the counter to what I'm saying, is the Swedish

440
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 3: model in all these where.

441
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: They have everything every benefit.

442
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 3: That an American could possibly want to make their life easier,

443
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,679
Speaker 3: leave money, you know, cultural norms and all that, and

444
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:55,920
Speaker 3: they still don't have a lot of kids.

445
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 4: Well, so this is really interesting because this is where

446
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,719
Speaker 4: both the left and the right are predicating their solutions

447
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 4: on materialism. That's right, right, So the right solution is

448
00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 4: a little bit more money. Left solution is a little

449
00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 4: bit more money, a little bit more childcare. And those

450
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,919
Speaker 4: things can be good policies totally, whether or not they

451
00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 4: help the birth rate. They can be good policies, Like

452
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 4: a five thousand dollars baby bonus is probably a good policy.

453
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:18,000
Speaker 5: But is it actually going to help the birth rate?

454
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 4: No, because these are not primarily material concerns, they're cultural ones.

455
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,920
Speaker 4: And just to wrap this all up, Ross Daufa reacted

456
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 4: to the New York Times article by posting it on

457
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,920
Speaker 4: ACX and saying, of course, you know, I think it's

458
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 4: good for the administration to consider pronatalist ideas, but right now,

459
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,200
Speaker 4: nothing would be more pronatalist than avoiding an unnecessary recession.

460
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, exactly what we're looking at.

461
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 4: Six months down the road is a Trump administration coming

462
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,159
Speaker 4: up with a five thousand dollars baby bonus into a

463
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 4: horrible economy for families where to your point, they can't

464
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 4: buy bananas for their babies. Yes, and or they can

465
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 4: buy bananas, they're just exceedingly expensive in their aren as,

466
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 4: many of them in stock. So yeah, this is it's

467
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 4: on a collision course for the Trump administration.

468
00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 6: Wow.

469
00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just looked it up.

470
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 3: Birth rate lapsed from class five point five just in

471
00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine from two thousand and eight. Yeah,

472
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 3: just to show you what a recession can do. At

473
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 3: the same time, there is an extraordinary showdown with Harvard

474
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,439
Speaker 3: going on right now between the Trump administration, which is

475
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,840
Speaker 3: not only putting immense financial pressure on them, basically trying

476
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,239
Speaker 3: to tell them how to run the university. But it

477
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 3: all apparently stems back to a massive mistake inside of

478
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 3: the bureaucracy which kicked this entire thing off. This was

479
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 3: broken down in a recent CNN segment and yes, I

480
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 3: know it's CNN, but they actually did a decent job

481
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:34,680
Speaker 3: this time around.

482
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 1: Mu's take a listen.

483
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 6: Okay, So the White House's position is it was malpracticed

484
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 6: by Harvard to not realize that this letter was so

485
00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 6: outrageous it probably wasn't true. I mean that letter came

486
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 6: from I mean, I think that statement actually just sort

487
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 6: of gives away the whole game. Essentially. The argument that

488
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 6: we're hearing there from may mailman at the White House

489
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 6: is they should have known. They should have known there

490
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 6: was something wrong. They should have picked up the phone

491
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,879
Speaker 6: and said to us at the White House, hey, guys,

492
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 6: this looks like a mistake. I think it's pretty obvious

493
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 6: where the fault was, though.

494
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 7: I mean, Elli, could you imagine if Harvard had responded

495
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 7: to this letter by saying, Okay, we'll meet these demands

496
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,600
Speaker 7: and actually that they had been sent in error to them.

497
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean exactly. Look, this is serious stuff. I mean,

498
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 6: this is a major showdown that is escalating by the day.

499
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 6: You know, if Harvard had acquiesced these demands, that it

500
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 6: would have changed the institution and compromised the institution forever.

501
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 6: But I'm interested to see now what happens books now,

502
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 6: does the White House withdraw this or do they sort

503
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 6: of decide, whoops, where we're po permitted now and we're

504
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 6: going to have to have this fight through to the ends.

505
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 3: So to recap this entire showdown with Harvard is because

506
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: let's put this up there on the screen. An official

507
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: on the quote Anti Semitism Task Force told the university

508
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 3: that a letter of demands has was actually now one

509
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 3: that was sent without authorization from the government. So the

510
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 3: university basically published the letter and said, no, we're not

511
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,680
Speaker 3: going to agree to these demands. Days later, that Trump

512
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 3: administration is like, well, screw you or actually gonna cut

513
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 3: off your funding. But by the way, that letter was

514
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: actually unauthorized and sent by the Acting General Counsel of

515
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 3: the Department of Health and Human Services on the Anti

516
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 3: Semitism Task Force, and it was sent in era error.

517
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: So the letter arrived when Harvard said they still believe

518
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 3: they could have prevented a confrontation. Then they get this

519
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 3: fake letter and they're like, no, we're not going to

520
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: do it. And so then now quote, it was malpracticed

521
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,639
Speaker 3: on the side of Harvard's lawyers not to pick up

522
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,360
Speaker 3: the phone and call the members of the Anti Semitism

523
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,120
Speaker 3: and Task Force who they had been talking to for weeks. Instead, quote,

524
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 3: Harvard went on a victimhood campaign that is a direct

525
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 3: quote from the White House. Instead So Harvard's position, as

526
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 3: that guy just laid out, or the government's position is

527
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 3: that Harvard is stupid because it took a letter that

528
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: it got from the United States government and then responded

529
00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 3: to I cannot blame a.

530
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: Position in defending Harvard.

531
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 3: This is pain painful to sit here and to defend

532
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 3: this ridiculous institution.

533
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,680
Speaker 1: But their position is.

534
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 3: That they should have realized that this was a fake letter.

535
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 3: And now nonetheless, despite the fact that it was faked

536
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: by the government.

537
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 5: Signed, but it was always signed.

538
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,719
Speaker 4: This is Harvard's stand, like it was.

539
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 3: I mean, listen to if I get a letter from

540
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 3: the government and what I'm going If I got a

541
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:24,160
Speaker 3: learn from.

542
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 6: The I R S.

543
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: I call the I R S and be like, hey, guys,

544
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: this is a real letter. Or should just do whatever

545
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: they tell me to do?

546
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 5: Why are they signing draft?

547
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 3: Right?

548
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 4: Yeah?

549
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 1: Good point?

550
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: All right, So now you tell me, Emily, based on

551
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 3: all this, though, the government's position is still nonetheless, we

552
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 3: will still take all of your funding from you. So

553
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 3: let's put that up there on the screen. Quote what

554
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 3: would it even mean.

555
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: For Trump to revoke Harvard's taxes and status?

556
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 5: Well, which by the way, is different. I just want

557
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 5: to say this, Yeah, I know.

558
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 3: You're right, You're right, but I'm saying this is all

559
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 3: a cascading part of this. So Harvard says no. So

560
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 3: the Trump administration goes, even though we sent you this

561
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 3: thing in error, we're cutting off two point two six

562
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 3: billion dollars in funding. And then a week later there

563
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 3: was all coming out that actually, we're going to revoke

564
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 3: your entire tax exempt status based.

565
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 4: On all that.

566
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 3: I mean, this is crazy shit, and it gets to

567
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 3: the tariff thing. Nobody hates Harvard more than me. Okay,

568
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 3: these people should lose their tax sub status. These people

569
00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 3: should be paying massive amounts of taxes. They're a hedge fund,

570
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,959
Speaker 3: they're not actually a real university. They admit less students

571
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,360
Speaker 3: today than they did when the US population was one

572
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 3: hundred million less people. Okay, absurd, It's just complete credential washing, inflation,

573
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: student debt.

574
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: I could go on forever, yep, for all of the

575
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 1: issues with that.

576
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 3: But as we are going to talk about soon with Greg,

577
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,120
Speaker 3: there needs to be a little bit of a process.

578
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 3: There needs to be a little bit of a principle here,

579
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 3: a little bit of an effort by the United States

580
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 3: government to say we're doing this because of what I

581
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 3: just laid out, Because you are bilking the federal government

582
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: for the under false pretenses for student loans. You're putting

583
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 3: your students in debt, not because of some fake anti

584
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 3: viscal case, quite literally, a fake anti Semitism demand.

585
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: Of the government.

586
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: So the whole thing is insane, and Harvard is now

587
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: countersuing the Trump administration. Every legal expert I see says

588
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 3: Harvard or the government has no chance in this case

589
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: right now. I mean, they may prevail in the long

590
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 3: run if they go through a proper process, but as

591
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: of where things start right now, Harvard is getting a

592
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 3: temporary restraining order like tomorrow based on the way that

593
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 3: this entire thing has happened.

594
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,199
Speaker 4: When I care obviously much more about the corruption and

595
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 4: degradation of higher education than I care about some idiot

596
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 4: bureaucrats and the Trump administration botching it. But do you

597
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 4: end up actually addressing the problem if you are too

598
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 4: incompetent to address it correctly and hurt your ability exactly

599
00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 4: because you and I are actually probably sympathetic to the

600
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 4: argument that if you're making an omelet, you're gonna make

601
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 4: going to break a few eggs.

602
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 5: The omelet is reforming higher ed.

603
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 4: Yes, obviously the media is going to pick out a

604
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 4: few examples of really bad process work from the Trump

605
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,239
Speaker 4: administration and blow them up into something that they're not.

606
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 5: This actually is bad. It's no question. This is so stupid.

607
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: This is not like common you know, it's like, this

608
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: is classic stupidity with a capital S, where it's embarrassing

609
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 3: to even have to be in a position to be

610
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: be like, yeah, well they kind of have a point,

611
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 3: and this is what they've done with everything, Terri. And

612
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 3: that's why I'm like, I'm done with Ri. I am

613
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 3: done with this bullshit. It's like this amount of stupidity

614
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 3: that you require people to debase themselves to defend your

615
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 3: it iscy is enough. Look, I know that you know

616
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 3: there's some mega memas or whatever they're going to stand

617
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 3: right or die forever. Fine, okay, you can have them.

618
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 3: But you know, for people out here who are actually

619
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:41,959
Speaker 3: have to follow this stuff for a living and have

620
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 3: you know, actual acquaintance with competence and with people who

621
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 3: actually know what the hell they're doing, it's it's it's absurd.

622
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 3: It's an attack on intellect itself.

623
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: You know, go ahead, Well.

624
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 4: So I mean I think what's interesting here is that

625
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 4: we compare Trump one point zero and Trump two point

626
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 4: zero and say Trump one point zero was more haphazard.

627
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 4: They didn't have their ducks in a row. They hadn't

628
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 4: spent four years preparing this detailed policy agenda that they

629
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 4: could install immediately when a Republican president, whether it was

630
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 4: Trump or DeSantis, was in office. I think what we're

631
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 4: starting to see, whether it's the student deportations, this letter

632
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 4: to Harvard, or the tariffs, is that actually they did

633
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 4: plan directionally what they wanted to do. They planned who

634
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 4: they wanted to put in place, but they just lack

635
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 4: the know how to execute well.

636
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 1: Actually, it's a huge dive. I've been thinking about this

637
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: a lot.

638
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 3: It's a massive indictment of Project twenty twenty five and

639
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 3: all of the projects that were ostensibly to professionalize the

640
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:36,959
Speaker 3: Trump administration.

641
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: It's just not happened at all.

642
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 3: Congratulations, you had some executive orders that were ready to

643
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: go on day one. Let's look at the actual result

644
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: of your flagship product dose two trillion to one trillion

645
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 3: to one hundred and fifty billion, which is the exact

646
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: amount that we're going to increase the Pentagon budget Okay,

647
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 3: so you didn't cought a single dollar of federal spend.

648
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: I'm judging you by your own by what you say

649
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 3: that you wanted to do. Yeah, dose, you failed. It's

650
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: a complete failure. Elon is leaving soon, right literally he

651
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: has to because of this.

652
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 4: May actually yeah, no, probably if you let Russ Boat start,

653
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 4: who is a highly competent.

654
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 3: But if you're a car so we'll look, we're only

655
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: hundre days in so do deportation. It's like, okay, yeah,

656
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: I mean you know, I said this previously yesterday. The

657
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 3: Bureau of Prison validates gang members every day, every single day.

658
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 3: The Bureau of Prisons has thousands of gang members in

659
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 3: the United States penitentiary system and knows exactly what they

660
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 3: look like and how they do tattoos and everything. Do

661
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: they make mistakes, I'm sure they do, but I guarantee

662
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 3: you it's a much more professional. So when they come

663
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 3: out they go, oh, we're sending these gang members to Salvador,

664
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, okay, you know it makes sense. Did

665
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 3: US Department's Justice No, It's like, oh, complete bullshit. The

666
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: way that you guys did this autism awareness tattooed Mak

667
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: Mukhali said, Oh, we're going after the student criminals.

668
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: Right.

669
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: I'm like, oh, okay, so the Hamilton Hall guy, right, No,

670
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: the guy who handed out a flyer, or this lady

671
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 3: who co authored an op ed, or the guy who's

672
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: married to a lady who's related to someone in Humma

673
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 3: what like, and that the tariffs. This fucking formula. It's

674
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 3: the same as the first time around. I mean, I

675
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,719
Speaker 3: remember the census thing. I mean, this is the first thing.

676
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 3: This is the first thing I pissed me off of

677
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 3: the Trump administration. As people know, the census currently counts

678
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 3: illegal immigrants, which is insane, right, insane, because it basically

679
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 3: means that if you have enough illegals in your state

680
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 3: that you get more representation in Congress, what more electoral votes?

681
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: Nonsense.

682
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 3: Well, the administration had a plan in twenty eighteen to

683
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: get rid to basically change the senses. It only costs

684
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 3: US citizens, great, awesome, would have completely changed the electoral map. Well,

685
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 3: they did it in such an incompetent way. The Supreme

686
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 3: Court was like, we don't even disagree, but we are

687
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 3: striking this down because you did it so stupidly. And

688
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 3: then they're like, oh, the twenty twenty election was stolen.

689
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, well, you know, also you can't do the

690
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 3: basic paperwork travel band. How many trivel bands do we

691
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 3: have in twenty seventeen do you remember maybe four?

692
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 5: Five? Yeah, it was ridiculous. Actually, that's a really good parallel.

693
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 5: I hadn't even thought about that because it's so hard

694
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 5: to like pull all of these.

695
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 4: Different references out because there's literally like hundreds of them.

696
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 4: That's actually a really good reference point. And I think

697
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 4: the difference really now that I'm thinking of it between

698
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: one point zero and two point zero here is that

699
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 4: two point zero to use someone violent metaphor. In one

700
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 4: point oh, nobody knew where to aim. In two point zero,

701
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 4: everyone spent years figuring out exactly where to aim, but

702
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 4: didn't train at shooting right.

703
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 5: They weren't.

704
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 4: They weren't going to the range, and they're not right

705
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 4: on the target. They know exactly what target to shoot at,

706
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 4: but they don't know how to hit the bull's eye.

707
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: And that's what's happening in this administration and in ways

708
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 4: that are probably undermining their ability to ultimately hit the target,

709
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 4: because people are going to pull them out of the

710
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: range right before they can figure out how to hit

711
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 4: the target.

712
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 5: They really get the hell out of here. You don't

713
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 5: not use that gun, eddie.

714
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 3: They're already I mean, how many days has it been

715
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 3: since January twentieth. Let's see, all right, January twenty first,

716
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: let's see it has been all right, chat cheept's not

717
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 3: working right now? All right, it's been eighty something eighty

718
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 3: or ninety days. You run out of political capital only.

719
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 3: They only have one piece of legislation they're going to

720
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 3: pass for the next two years, the tax cuts and

721
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 3: jobs ack.

722
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: Good luck with that one.

723
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: I hope it works out considering all the things that

724
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,719
Speaker 3: you guys have said that you want to do.

725
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: Well, by the way, you have to lift the debt ceiling.

726
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 4: That's not rense and repeat from that. They're trying to

727
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:29,640
Speaker 4: stuff a bunch of stuff in reconcization.

728
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 5: It's not just re.

729
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 4: Upping the tax cuts. It's actually stuffing a bunch of

730
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 4: other possible priorities.

731
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 3: But I'm saying, you have one piece of legislation. That's

732
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 3: all you guys have left. You burned all your political capital.

733
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: You haven't deported that many people. If anything, you're actually

734
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: trailing the Obama and Clinton administration and you're roughly on

735
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 3: par with the Biden administration tariff policy disaster. Sorry, it's true,

736
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 3: there's been. I mean, maybe you'll get some benefit, you know.

737
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: A few months from now.

738
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: I'm genuinely doubtful as the I mean, it's this. This

739
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: is where I'm just going full Richard Hennen like, they

740
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 3: do not have elite human.

741
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: Capital who are behind Its true.

742
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 5: I don't agree with that.

743
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: No, it's true. I don't see it. I don't see

744
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: a single I don't.

745
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 4: Think anybody has the human capital to accomplish the goals

746
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,879
Speaker 4: that they've set their sight. Maybe right, they're trying to

747
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 4: like radically transform a system that's built up over one

748
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 4: hundred years. And I don't think it's a matter of

749
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 4: the Trump people being I think there are absolutely some

750
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 4: idiots in the Trump administration.

751
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 5: I think we could both say.

752
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: More per capita personally.

753
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 4: Okay, But yeah, it's because the Trump It is because

754
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 4: Republicans haven't trained up an army of bureaucrats over the

755
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 4: course of the last one hundred times Democrats have, and

756
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 4: now Republicans are trying to use this sort of like

757
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: haphazard like Lexington and conquered band of policy amateurs to

758
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 4: do something much more difficult than anyone's ever tried to

759
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 4: do in the policy space.

760
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 3: Very fair counter and I actually think it's probably a

761
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 3: good place to leave it.

762
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 1: So anyway, Harvard, that's what happened. Let's get to the

763
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: CEO of Fire, Greg Lukanoff.

764
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 3: He's going to break down some of free speech attacks

765
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: for us, including some on Harvard.

766
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: Let's get to it. Joining us now is Greg Lukianoff.

767
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: He is the CEO of Fire, one of the most

768
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 3: principled free speech organizations in the United States, and we're

769
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 3: very excited to be joined by I'm Greg.

770
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: It's great to see you. Thanks for joining the show.

771
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me so.

772
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: Greg, we wanted you to get sound off on some

773
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 3: of the extraordinary moves by the Trump administration. First of all,

774
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 3: you are the author of several books, and more recently

775
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 3: this one, let's put it up there on the screen,

776
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 3: the Canceling of the American Mind. But more recently you

777
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 3: might look at that and be like, oh, this is

778
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 3: a right wing guest or something. But Greg, you're unique

779
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 3: in that you really have stood up against a lot

780
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: of unprecedented attacks on free speech currently by the Trump administration.

781
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 3: We have a list that we can just put here

782
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: right now, assembled by your team. Let's put it up

783
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 3: there on the screen. Relevant in fact, some of the

784
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: Harvard discussion that we just had here on the show.

785
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,479
Speaker 3: Why don't you break down for us why you see

786
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 3: this as an attack on free speech with the Harvard

787
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 3: situation and for a lot more.

788
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, I mean there is no small irony in

789
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 8: my taking so much eight mail of the moment for

790
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 8: defending Harvard, because Harvard finished dead last two years in

791
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 8: a row on our campus free speech ranking, and I

792
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 8: want to be very clear they earned that position. But

793
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 8: the answer cannot be the government wildly exceeding its power

794
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 8: to effectively nationalize Harvard using powers it doesn't have. And

795
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 8: I'm a civil libertarian, so like I'm concerned about left

796
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 8: wing authoritarianism, and I'm concerned about right wing authoritarianism, Like

797
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 8: I'm mostly afraid of the accumulation of power. And what

798
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 8: they're currently claiming is that because of the history of

799
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 8: anti Semitism at Harvard, which I'd say, like, that's a

800
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 8: real concern, they now can restrict what two point six

801
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 8: billion dollars in potential funding to Harvard unless Harvard meets

802
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 8: demands that control everything from certain departments to what is taught,

803
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 8: to who is admitted. And that's what I mean by

804
00:36:53,239 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 8: effectively nationalizing. It's micromanaging this massive company. And I think that, yeah,

805
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 8: could it Is it possible that if you had, if

806
00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 8: you followed the procedures and did Title six hearings and

807
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 8: even Title nine hearings on the way Harvard has behaved

808
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 8: over the last five years, that Harvard might lose and

809
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 8: be in risk of losing its federal funding. I absolutely

810
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 8: that is absolutely a possibility. But the government does not

811
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 8: have the power to completely skip over that entire process

812
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 8: and just declare by you cause you know that essentially

813
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 8: you now have to do what the government says you

814
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,839
Speaker 8: do because you receive any federal federal funding at all.

815
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 8: And I did write I'm taking some flack for this

816
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 8: right now, but I take this, you know, very seriously.

817
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 8: The idea that, yes, Harvard has made a ton of mistakes,

818
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 8: and you know, I'm first in line and criticizing him,

819
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 8: canceling of the American mind. You know, Harvard does not

820
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 8: come out, that does not come out particularly well. But

821
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 8: the idea that we'd freeze a massive amount of science

822
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 8: funding for things that could actually be you know, groundbreaking.

823
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 8: I mean, this is the one thing that consistently cares

824
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 8: me is essentially that, in an effort to deal with

825
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 8: very real problems in higher ed we're going to destroy

826
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 8: our unique ability to push the frontiers of science, which

827
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 8: harms everyone, not just even in the United States and

828
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 8: the globe.

829
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 4: Well. And we might disagree on this because I'm more

830
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 4: sympathetic to the idea of the federal government exercising some

831
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 4: power over federal funding.

832
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 5: And to your point, Greg, I think also there's.

833
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 4: There's Title nine, Title seven, like, all of this could

834
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 4: get pretty interesting in the courts, but I have seen

835
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 4: I'm curious what you make of this some really interesting

836
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 4: commentary on the question of viewpoint diversity. The federal government

837
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 4: asking Harvard to implement different measures to ensure there's viewpoint

838
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 4: diversity at Harvard or in its research, and all of

839
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 4: that that, I mean, it's the same thing with the

840
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 4: anti semitism definition that Fire has been really brave and

841
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 4: for years standing up against the overly broad definition of

842
00:38:58,640 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 4: anti semitism.

843
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 5: Those are those seem like.

844
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: Problematic answers to a problem in and of itself, And

845
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 4: could you just speak to the viewpoint diversity question. Because

846
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 4: you've been advocating for viewpoint diversity at the university level

847
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 4: for a long time, then when the federal government asks

848
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 4: about it, it becomes a different issue.

849
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 8: Exactly, I want viewpoint diversity in higher ed And for example,

850
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 8: if Congress, you know, decided to make some of these

851
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 8: contingent on federal funding that they have, you have a

852
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 8: lot of power to decide what you tie federal funding

853
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 8: to in the first place. But you can't work backwards

854
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 8: and then say, oh, by the way, we've now decided

855
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 8: that federal funding is contingent on viewpoint diversity. That also

856
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 8: poses really serious First Amendment issues, because what you're saying

857
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 8: is a private institution has to basically have a political

858
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 8: at mis test to make sure that they have greater

859
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 8: viewpoint diversity. Now, I want schools to achieve viewpoint diversity,

860
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 8: and I think one of the ways they can do

861
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 8: that is to have more classes co taught by people

862
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 8: who disagree. I think this would be powerful on multiple levels,

863
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 8: and it could be a great way to introduce more

864
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 8: viewpoint diversity. But as a civil libertarians, when it's achieved

865
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 8: through government coercion, we're rightfully concerned about that.

866
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: So definitely.

867
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 8: And to be clear that the government does have power

868
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,000
Speaker 8: to put strings on its federal funding, and they do

869
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 8: and we and that's why I made the point that essentially,

870
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 8: could they be found guilty of violating Title six, Title seven,

871
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 8: and Title nine. Yeah, I think that's a real possibility.

872
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 8: But you can't just do it without proving it, without

873
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 8: going through the procedural steps, because those really matter. That's

874
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 8: the difference between you know, a government a republic and

875
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,440
Speaker 8: something that looks a lot more authoritari.

876
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 3: Well, what you're really talking about here is process through

877
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 3: the legal courts, where you have to present evidence, where

878
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 3: you have to have a judge who is ruled here.

879
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 3: Let's put the next parts up there, guys on the screen.

880
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 3: Which Fire has also spoken out against some of the

881
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 3: deportation efforts here of students who have criticized Israel and

882
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,799
Speaker 3: or participated in protests on college campuses. Can you just

883
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,799
Speaker 3: tell us why again? You know, in this particular case,

884
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 3: the administration is justifying this as a violation of the

885
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 3: Immigration and Nationality Act, saying that they're expressing support here

886
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 3: for a terrorist organization and thus these students are eligible

887
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 3: for deportation.

888
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: Fire has spoken out against us tell us why. Yeah,

889
00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: And again people could point out some irony here.

890
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 8: I don't really see it as irony because fire has

891
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 8: been one of the ones pointing out actually alone to

892
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 8: a degree, pointing out that pro Palestinian protesters are responsible

893
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 8: for all but essentially three of the highest number of

894
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 8: campus shoutdowns of speakers on record. It's been overwhelmingly a

895
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 8: pro Palestinian movement in some cases. I remember they did

896
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 8: a shoutdown, they shut down an event of someone who

897
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 8: was just there to talk about black holes, you know,

898
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 8: like it was it was ridiculous, and we called it

899
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 8: out all the time.

900
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

901
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 8: So I think that a lot of these protests have

902
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 8: been in some cases a disaster for free spee.

903
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: She's not going to be freedom.

904
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 8: However, again, you have to follow process and you have

905
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 8: to prove it. So when they first accused Mamood Khalil,

906
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 8: for example, I was like, well, you know, Colombia was

907
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 8: a disaster, and I'm willing to bet, not willing to bet.

908
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 8: I suspect they might actually have something more serious on him,

909
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 8: like he was involved in some of the vandalism, or

910
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 8: some of the anti Semitic harassment himself, or some of

911
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 8: the really bad in some cases criminal behavior that took

912
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 8: place at Harvard, or at least things that they could

913
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 8: have kicked him out of school for. But as the

914
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 8: case went on, We're like, the government's not making this argument.

915
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 8: They're basically pointing to flyers that a group that he

916
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 8: was loosely affiliated with circulated, and I'm like, Okay, that's

917
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 8: saying that you're kicking him out just for speech that

918
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 8: would be protected by an American citizen, and that's problematic

919
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 8: according to the law. There was a weird argument that

920
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 8: I keep on getting that people here on a green card,

921
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:55,279
Speaker 8: and green card is, you know, one step away from

922
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 8: citizenship have no free speech rights, and that's absurd.

923
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: Teen forty five.

924
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,879
Speaker 8: The Supreme Court was incredibly clear in a place called

925
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 8: in a case called Bridges y. Wickson, that resident aliens

926
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 8: do have First Amendment rights. Now, what the full parameters

927
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 8: of those rights are is the one remaining question. But

928
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 8: it certainly should not be that you can you can

929
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 8: be at a protest at a college campus where there

930
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 8: are ten protesters, all of it peaceful, all of it protected,

931
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 8: and all nine of those protesters are fine because they're

932
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 8: American citizens, but the tenth has to show as papers

933
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 8: and could be kicked out of the country for being

934
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 8: on the on the wrong side of it. So the

935
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 8: Mamoud Khalil case actually just got worse the longer it

936
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 8: went on, and the osterric case is even worse because

937
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,560
Speaker 8: the only thing they're pointing at this tough students, is

938
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:46,240
Speaker 8: that she wrote a op ed that was critical of Israel,

939
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 8: that was critical, and it was much more it was

940
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 8: much more mainstream that it was being presented as. And

941
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 8: this is the young woman that they actually, you know,

942
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 8: drove a van by and playing closed policemen, you know,

943
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 8: stuffer and take her away for deportation. That that's scary stuff.

944
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,959
Speaker 8: And it's one of these things where you think about

945
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 8: all the great Americans that we are proud to have

946
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 8: come to this country and eventually became naturalized or didn't

947
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 8: in some cases, who would be horrified if they were deported.

948
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 8: I think of, you know, Christopher Hitchins. I don't think

949
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 8: Christopher Hitchins. He definitely was here on a green card

950
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 8: for a long time. I don't think he ever actually

951
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 8: became a citizen. And the idea or for that matter,

952
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 8: what I point this out to conservatives, what about oh

953
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:35,759
Speaker 8: my god Peterson or Elon Musk, you know. So, I

954
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 8: think that I understand that people are concerned about what

955
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 8: happened at Columbia and a lot of these schools. I

956
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 8: am too passionately, so I think they shamed themselves during

957
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 8: this period. But that's not the same thing as saying

958
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 8: these students are responsible for it and that they should

959
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 8: be kicked out because of their opinion. That's much more dangerous.

960
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 5: And Grid, you didn't just write Canceling of the American Mind.

961
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 5: That was a follow up to a really great book

962
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 5: you wrote as.

963
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 4: Well, called The Coddling of the American Union with John Hyde,

964
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 4: and that's a really important book. I mean, I would

965
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: say that's like a landmark book in the way that

966
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 4: we've sort.

967
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 5: Of come to view our culture.

968
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 4: And the reason I want to ask you about that

969
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 4: is in the midst of this conversation about quote unquote

970
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 4: woke right, one of the things that as a conservative

971
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 4: I worried about sometimes pre twenty twenty four is that

972
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 4: there were cancels. There were cancelations that did see conservative

973
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 4: students being the victims of attacks on free speech. They

974
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 4: were really truly being victimized in some cases.

975
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: And absolutely that fueled.

976
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,959
Speaker 4: Though, a really interesting sense of victimhood on the right,

977
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 4: which is something the right critiqued the left for sort

978
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,520
Speaker 4: of being defined by for a very long time. And

979
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 4: I'm curious, as the author of Coddling and Canceling, if

980
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:55,280
Speaker 4: you see that sort of instinct, instinctive illiberalism that comes

981
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 4: when you end up genuinely being a victim actually starting

982
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 4: to fuel right wing encroachments on speech.

983
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:03,359
Speaker 5: Is there something to that?

984
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 8: Oh?

985
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: No, I think there absolutely is.

986
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 8: I think I'm reading Mussa Algarby's book We've Never Been Woke,

987
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 8: and he really kind of saw James Lindsay's term woke right,

988
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 8: you know, coming that essentially when you look at some

989
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 8: of the tenets of the right of the heart, the

990
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 8: authoritarian left and the authoritarian right, both of which I

991
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 8: very much oppose, they have.

992
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 1: Very similar characteristics.

993
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 8: And it goes so far as to have people like

994
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 8: Chris Rufo, you know, talking about their admiration for Graham,

995
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,759
Speaker 8: Sheet and Lenin and like all of these monsters that

996
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 8: my family had to flee Russia to fight because they

997
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 8: were so good at manipulating the public, oftentimes with an

998
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 8: initial sense of grievance that called for centralization of power

999
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 8: on the basis of identity, that the woke right and

1000
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 8: work left are more similar than they're comfortable with, even

1001
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 8: to the point at which they're citing the same And

1002
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 8: I'm going to show my own bias here historical monster

1003
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 8: to justify their position.

1004
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, and last part here is on these law firms.

1005
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 3: This is one where I have not yet victims.

1006
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 5: Again, this is the victims.

1007
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: I had around this one.

1008
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 3: But go ahead, Greg, we're gonna put it up there

1009
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 3: on the screen. We haven't even done a full segment

1010
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 3: just because it is kind of convoluted in a way.

1011
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 3: You're like, the president is like attacking a law firm

1012
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 3: and thus saying that he had to do like pro

1013
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: bono work for him personally.

1014
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 1: But why is that a free speech problem there?

1015
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,359
Speaker 8: Oh my god, it's well, it's rob for a free

1016
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 8: speech organization because we go into court to defend freedom

1017
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,960
Speaker 8: of speech. And we're all lawyers, not all of us.

1018
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 8: I'm actually really glad that some of us are social

1019
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 8: scientists as well. But what they're saying is, and it

1020
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 8: went beyond just people who opposed the administration people, I mean,

1021
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 8: but they're going after law firms for example. You know,

1022
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 8: helped with the January sixth prosecutions or helped oppose some

1023
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 8: of the attempts for the over the twenty twenty election,

1024
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 8: the argument that who fought against the idea that the

1025
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,840
Speaker 8: election was stolen, which, by the way, it wasn't. And

1026
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 8: what they're saying to some of these law firms now

1027
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 8: is that because you opposed the administration on their position

1028
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 8: on affirmative action, you know, for example, like that's word,

1029
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 8: that's one of our justifications for targeting you. I'm like,

1030
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 8: so wait. But here's the most important thing. The way

1031
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 8: they're targeting them is one telling these law firms that

1032
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 8: they're losing their security clearance, which as a DC lawyer,

1033
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 8: that's you know, death sentence for some of these lawyers.

1034
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 8: But more importantly and more horrifyingly, they're telling them that

1035
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 8: they can't go into federal buildings. And guess what's a

1036
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 8: really important federal building for lawyers a court. So like,

1037
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 8: the idea that the federal government has power to say

1038
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 8: that lawyers can't enter court rooms is an extraordinary addition

1039
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 8: to power. And because Fire is currently in court with

1040
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 8: with Donald Trump's personal lawyer in a case where he's

1041
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 8: he's suing a polster for getting a poll wrong and

1042
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,560
Speaker 8: Seltzer back in Iowa. And because we're a nonprofit that

1043
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 8: goes into court, we're very aware of the idea like,

1044
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 8: how on earth are we supposed to do our advocacy

1045
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 8: in this situation in which lawyers can be told that

1046
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 8: they can't enter a courtroom if you oppose the administration?

1047
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: Wow, very interesting. Greg.

1048
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: We can always look to you and your organization. We

1049
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 3: really really appreciate the work that you guys do over

1050
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 3: here at breaking points, and we're just really happy to

1051
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 3: have you on man, So thank you.

1052
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: Oh, we appreciate it.

1053
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 8: It can be it can feel like a really thankless

1054
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 8: job to constantly be angering both sides the political spectrum.

1055
00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:28,640
Speaker 8: But at least I've had a lot of practice.

1056
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:29,040
Speaker 1: That's great.

1057
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 3: Well, there are a lot of people out there who

1058
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 3: definitely see and appreciate the work that you guys do.

1059
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: So thank you very much, Greg, Thank you so much,

1060
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: take care, Thank you.

1061
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 3: Guys so much for watching it. Emily, thank you for

1062
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 3: being here. It was great fun. I hope the audience

1063
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 3: got what it needed, what it deserved.

1064
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:45,320
Speaker 1: Possibly all we do with dev huh, Yeah, that's where givers.

1065
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 1: I'm a giver.

1066
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 3: I'm forgetting what movie you are from. Anyway, all right,

1067
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 3: we will see You'll be on tomorrow with crystals.

1068
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 1: Right I go. We will see you all later.