1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Crypto Daily, Bloomberg I heard podcast and 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: I'm Mike Reagan in today for Stacy Marie Ishmaal. It's 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: Thursday January. In the days leading up to the staggering 4 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: collapse of f t X, a word tweets broke out 5 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: between two top crypto executives. Former ft X CEO Sam 6 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: Backman Freed and Binance CEO Chang Peng Jao or CZ, 7 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: as he's commonly called, are known rivals and just one 8 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: example of their different styles. Backmen Freed appeared eager to 9 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: work with the government, regulators and lawmakers, while c Z 10 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: not so much. But when CZ tweeted that he was 11 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: selling Binance his holdings of crypto tokens that were created 12 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: by f t X, it sparked a run on the 13 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: exchange that ultimately led to the insolvency of f t X. 14 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: The idea that a once flushed crypto exchange where billions 15 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: of dollars could be taken down by a series of tweets, well, 16 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: it raises a lot of questions about the crypto market, 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: and it fuels the perception that the digital acid industry 18 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: is led by alpha males caught up in a hyper 19 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: masculine culture. But now that one of the most renowned 20 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: CEOs finds himself facing a slew of criminal charges and 21 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: civil actions, what's at stake for the industry and what 22 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: does it say about the leaders who run it or 23 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: the future of the crypto community at large. My colleague 24 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: Vildanna Hirich joins me, Now, they're not afraid to get 25 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: into fights, they're not afraid to be on Twitter and 26 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: say really outrageous things, And basically that's what we've seen 27 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: happen in crypto over the last ten years or so. Voltana, 28 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, of course, 29 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: so FILTONA. One thing I find fascinating is, you know, 30 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: if you cover regular companies, non crypto companies, you know 31 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:10,359 Speaker 1: there's business wire, pr newswire, they have sort of official 32 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: avenues to make an announcement. Not so much in crypto. 33 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: It's it's basically all on Twitter. We have Twitter, Twitter, 34 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: which which has its pluses and its minuses, but talked 35 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: to mostly but talk a little bit about that idea 36 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: of how important Twitter is to the crypto industry and 37 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: how information is disseminated. It's hugely important. I always say 38 00:02:30,639 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: that a lot of crypto discourse happens on Twitter. So 39 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: you have a lot of these big personalities that I'm 40 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 1: sure we're going to be talking about who have huge 41 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: followings on Twitter. They're they're all day with their laser eyes, 42 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: although a lot of them have actually removed their laser 43 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: eyes as of as of late, and they're just basically 44 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: posting anything that comes to mind. A lot of them 45 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: have been known to just be tweeting all day every day. 46 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: I actually find a lot of ideas and great market 47 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: stuff on Twitter because you can find just about anything. 48 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: You can find these feuds that we're about to talk about, 49 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 1: but also a lot of like coverage about what's happening 50 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: with the market and what people are seeing because, as 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: you say, there's no central place where we can get 52 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: this type of information. That's what I think is so fascinating. 53 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: You know, a crypto project that has an announcement to 54 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: make oh we've got a new coin, or we're shutting 55 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: down for maintenance, or hey sorry but we just blew up. 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,919 Speaker 1: All your money's gone. You know, Twitter is the official 57 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: sort of platform for them to release that news. But 58 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 1: mixed in with all that is all this sort of 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: other personal sort of bravado. You know, let's talk a 60 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: little bit about the way crypto power players sort of 61 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: communicate with each other on Twitter. It's all very nice 62 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: and ploy and cordial. Right, Oh, it's so nice. It's 63 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: like it's all rainbows and fairies and and nice words. 64 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: No that there's actually a lot of um. I guess 65 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: we can call it fighting or in fighting between some 66 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: of these CEOs and people who are at the helms 67 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: of these different crypto companies, and like I said, they 68 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: love to have huge followings. A lot of them do 69 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: have huge followings, and they sort of just build these 70 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: basis of supporters and followers on on Twitter who like 71 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 1: to come in the fence of some of them. But 72 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: I think a really good example of what you're talking 73 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: about is the feud that we saw between Sam Bank 74 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,599 Speaker 1: and Freed from f t X, the former CEO of 75 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 1: f t X, and what happened with Finances c Z, 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: where for years people sort of watched them feud with 77 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: each other via Twitter and sort of just throw barbs 78 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: at each other. Where you can even just you know, 79 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: tweet about someone without having to tag them, and your 80 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: followers will know who exactly you're talking about. But they've 81 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: had a spat going on on Twitter, sub tweeting as 82 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 1: they say, exactly, there's a major crypto ceo who I 83 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: think is a fraud. I'm not to say who, but 84 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: but but you know who is? You know you may 85 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: know who you rehash are the listeners How that feud 86 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: sort of reached its climax and what it meant for 87 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: f t X, well, it meant the downfall of ft 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: X really not to not to give the sort of 89 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: the ending of the story, but both are huge names 90 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: within crypto. They were even before any of this happened. 91 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: C Z is at the helm of the largest crypto 92 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: exchange in the world. F t X was the largest 93 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: one of the largest in the US, and so to 94 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 1: have the two of them sparring was always going to 95 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: be drawing headlines. But basically what happened was that Finance 96 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: held a huge chunk I think something like two or 97 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: three billion dollars worth of the FTX token f t 98 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: T and what sparked all of this was c Z 99 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: tweeting out that he was going to be offloading that 100 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: investment that they were holding, and there was a lot 101 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: of back and forth from f t X where f 102 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: t X had offered to buy it for I forget 103 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: what the yeah exactly. At one point at ft T 104 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: the token had been trading above eighty dollars I think 105 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 1: in September of last year, and for for market watchers 106 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: actually for people who were seeing that on Twitter, they 107 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: did not take that as a good sign that f 108 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: t X was willing to do that. And from there 109 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: we sort of saw this rather quick unraveling of what 110 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: happened with f t X, because then we had to 111 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: have Finance say that they were going to help take 112 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: ft X over a deal that actually ended up falling through, 113 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 1: which is something that the market foresaw because we saw 114 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency selling off when all of this was happening. So 115 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: a lot of market participants and people who were watching 116 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: what was going on between the two parties was that 117 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: they just didn't have a lot of faith this was 118 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: actually going to play out in a good way. That 119 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: token ft T played such a crucial role as collateral exactly, 120 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: the hedgephone that's sort of strapped to f t X 121 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: on me to research exactly and c Z kind of 122 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: you would assume nobody was doing perhaps by undermining faith 123 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: in that token, that it wasn't. A later tweety said 124 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: that it's better for a crypto project to fail early. 125 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: You know, he kind of was hinting that he knew 126 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: what was going to happen. Yeah, this is the interesting 127 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: thing because and we can think about this in a 128 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: bunch of different ways in terms of, you know, coin 129 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: Desk was the original news source of what sort of 130 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: helped spark some of this, and what helped spark c 131 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: Z saying that he was going to be off floading 132 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: those FTT tokens that obviously has had huge repercussions for 133 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: the industry that Coin Desk covers. And then the same 134 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: thing happening with finance, where you're just seeing these huge 135 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: repercussions that aren't exactly great for finance either because we 136 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: just have this huge loss of faith in the system, 137 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: reputational damages, people fleeing the market without any hopes that 138 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: they're going to be coming back, especially from some of 139 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: the retail investors. And so I think the repercussions just 140 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: I don't think it played out exactly as hidden. Yeah, 141 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: I thought they might, and we've learned so much since then. Obviously, 142 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: the fraud charges all, you know, the sec the CFTC 143 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: complaints against Sam Bagman. Freed suggests that this company was 144 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: a big mess. Basically, this may or may not have 145 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: happened eventually, but it tweets that sure did accelerate things, 146 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: which sure did. But I'm curious, you know, as a man, 147 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: maybe I'm not the best person to analyze sort of 148 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: the crypto culture because it does seem to me that 149 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: it's this sort of bro culture, for lack of a 150 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: better word, this kind of hyper masculine, alpha male culture. 151 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm curiously, you know, as a woman covering the space, 152 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: interacting with with a lot of these guys, how do 153 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: you perceive that culture? Yeah, well it's hard for me 154 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: to say. Actually, maybe you are the better voice in 155 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: terms of being able to say what exactly is going on. 156 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: But you and I actually worked on a story about 157 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: this together, and one of the people we spoke with 158 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: called it blood sport. Basically, this is like a blood sport. 159 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: What he said was, it's it's about not just winning, 160 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: but vanquishing and winning at the expense of my opponents, 161 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: which is basically what we saw happening, where people were 162 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: trying to outdo each other in the process. End it 163 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,079 Speaker 1: up also hurting themselves. Yeah, that was a great quote 164 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: from Peter Atwater at William and Mary. A smart guy. 165 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: He studies confidence and the role of confidence in finance, 166 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: and maybe a little too much confidence from these guys. 167 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: And I wonder about that idea of blood sport. You know, 168 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: finances are it's not like it's ever had a kind 169 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: and gentle reputation, right, you know, Wall Street bankers are 170 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: not known for getting together and singing compared to what's 171 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: going on in Yeah, do you said, do you sense 172 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: a big difference? It's much more aggressive in in crypto 173 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: for sure. The whole idea of crypto is that it's 174 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:54,119 Speaker 1: anti establishment, that it's this new thing, a new innovation, 175 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: new technology is a new way to to pay and 176 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 1: live and new everything. Basically like a financial revolution, is 177 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: what a lot of crypto people will tell you. And 178 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: the type of people to help lead through that are young, brash, 179 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: they're not afraid to get into fights, they're not afraid 180 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: to be on Twitter and say really outrageous things. And 181 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: basically that's what we've seen happen in crypto over the 182 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: last ten years or so. If you compared traditional financial markets, 183 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: they're not huge companies but they're making names for themselves 184 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: sometimes thanks in part to what the founders are doing 185 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: and saying on Twitter and in the public. Yeah. I 186 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: keep thinking of the Hedge fund that really went after 187 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: do Quan and the Terraform blockchain project earlier in the year. Um, 188 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: they sort of on Twitter liking themselves to the Romans 189 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: sacking Carthage in the Punic Wars. So that blood sport 190 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: idea really, you know, it conjures up this image of 191 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: sort of gladiators, gladiators and and and there really is 192 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: kind of that sort of mentality at playing a lot 193 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: of these people involved. Yeah, I think so. You and 194 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: I had a quote also from Peter Adwater and he said, 195 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: it's the modern day gladiators, these CEOs, They're perceiving themselves 196 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: as disruptive warriors, is what Peter told us. Coming up 197 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: more of my discussion with fill Donna on what the 198 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: biggest crypto rivalries mean for the industry, we'll be right back. 199 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: I thought, I also wanted to talk a little bit 200 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 1: about sort of this image that Sam bankman Fried had cultivated. 201 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 1: Not your average sort of Wall Street buttoned up suit 202 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,679 Speaker 1: and tie fleece, best type of guy. Was he it's 203 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: funny that we think of that as as buttoned up 204 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: and we're comparing. So he was known for sort of 205 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: having disheveled hair, for wearing sort of loose, baggy T shirts, 206 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: flip flops shorts. When we would see him actually go 207 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: in front of Congress, a lot of people made a 208 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,280 Speaker 1: big deal about him wearing a suit or just wearing 209 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: a button down. But then they would zoom in on 210 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: his shoes and the shoelaces would be all like totally 211 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 1: messed up, like he doesn't on a daily basis tie 212 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: his shoes and had maybe forgotten how to do it. 213 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, that's that's the image he had, and now 214 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: we know that that's the image he was trying to cultivate. 215 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: That's an interesting point is that it very much fits 216 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: in with sort of that the counter culture outsider image 217 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 1: of crypto. Right, you know you do you don't want 218 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: to look like a banker, right? Absolutely. I remember this 219 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: one story when things first started falling apart for f 220 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 1: t X, I think one of the stories said something 221 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,960 Speaker 1: like he wanted to look like he was in his 222 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,719 Speaker 1: bean bag chair because he was very well known for 223 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: like not having a regular sleeping schedule. And just sleeping 224 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: whenever he could on his bean bag chair, like in 225 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,959 Speaker 1: the office next to his computers where he was working 226 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: or playing video games. Where when he had investors coming 227 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: in or anybody of importance coming into, you know, check 228 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: out the FTX offices or check out what they were doing. 229 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: That he wanted it to look like he was rolling 230 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: out of the sleeping bag chair, like that he had 231 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,160 Speaker 1: been working so hard and out of nowhere. You sort 232 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: of like walk in and you catch him still like 233 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: taking a mini nap or something, and that that is 234 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: exactly what he wanted to be perceived as, where he 235 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: told his employees, it's actually good for me to look 236 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: like my hair is so dishovel. Well, I kind of 237 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: follow that strategy to myself, But if I slept in 238 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: a bean bag chair, I don't. I would need a chiropractice. 239 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: But your hair looks exactly like his. Yeah, at least 240 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 1: you brushed it. You brushed yours today. I'm curious how 241 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: you're thinking about sort of the legacy of all of this, 242 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: the culture of Twitter, It's future, the sort of widespread 243 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: suspicion and anxiety that exists now because of what happen 244 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: and with that t X. It seems to me that 245 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: things have changed forever in this industry, that everyone's going 246 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: to be second guessing sort of this notion of oh, 247 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: here's this quirky outsider sleeping in a being back chair. 248 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: You think that's fair to say? And you and I 249 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: had a great story about this as well. If I 250 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: got a good stories, if I can pat us on 251 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: the back. What we started to see pretty much over 252 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: the summer, I would say, or late summer, was a 253 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: huge wave of people leaving CEO roles at crypto companies, 254 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 1: so founders and and people who had sort of built 255 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: names for themselves within this space leaving, you know, their 256 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: CEO roles at those companies and up types taking their 257 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: place so that buttoned up types could could take over. 258 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: I think we we had some really great quotes from 259 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: that story as well. One of them said, some founders 260 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: could be moving on because the industry is getting more professional, 261 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: and they come from an era where it was more 262 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: tin hat, where the crypto people were more tin hat basically, 263 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: and you have more traditional finance types moving in to 264 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: help clean up the mess. So I wonder, you know, 265 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: is crypto justis going to be sort of joined at 266 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: the hip to this kind of masculine, alpha male, tough guy, 267 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: sort of leader of the pack image or or do 268 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: you think this will change things? Is there more room 269 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: for sort of a more reasonable, mild manner type of 270 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: leader in crypto? Now it's possible. I mean, I don't know, 271 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: we'll see what actually happens in terms of all of 272 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: what we're seeing in the wake of f t x 273 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: is collapse. A lot of people are saying that we're 274 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: definitely going to be seeing more regulation. So if that's 275 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: the case, it's possible that you have sort of more 276 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: serious types coming in. The new CEO of f t X, 277 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: who I think led Enron through its troubles in the 278 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: early two thousand's John Jay Ray. He is building this 279 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: image of himself of being a super studious and serious 280 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 1: person and coming out and talking about some of the 281 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: things that he had unearthed over the last couple of 282 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: weeks in terms of what had been happening at f 283 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: t X. So it's possible that we do start to 284 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: see more people like that coming in and, like I said, 285 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: sort of clean up the mess. Yeah, you think he 286 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: sleeps in a beanbag chair? Definitely not, No, definitely not. Well, 287 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: thank you, Vill Donna. I think Mike you forgot the 288 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 1: most important thing about this conversation. What's up? You and 289 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: I host our own podcast? I forgot about forgot about that. 290 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: I forgot about the highlight of my week every week. Yes, 291 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: can I plug it, plug it and plug away as 292 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: guest hosts? Thank you so much. Soul Stacy Marie finds 293 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 1: out all out. Yeah, no, I think she would be 294 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: happy with this too. I think she's a fan of 295 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: ours as well. What goes up? What goes up? Wherever 296 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts? Yeah, exactly. And also you can 297 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: find more of Bill Donna's reporting on the Bloomberg Terminal 298 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com. For more, be sure to 299 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: check out our twice weekly newsletter, Bloomberg Crypto. This is 300 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Crypto, dear podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. 301 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,920 Speaker 1: For more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the I 302 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 303 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for the show 304 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of 305 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Vergelina. Our senior producer is Janet Babin. 306 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:27,120 Speaker 1: Our producers are Mohammed Farup and Sharon Barriro. Our associate 307 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them. Desta wonder 308 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrn. I'm 309 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: Stacy Marie Schmal We'll be back tomorrow.