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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Nolan. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul Mission Controlled deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. Look, folks, if you're listening, no

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Speaker 1: matter where you live. If you're like most people, you

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Speaker 1: live in an urban environment. But uh, no matter where

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Speaker 1: you live or who you are, you are familiar with

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Speaker 1: the trope of the small town. They can present some

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Speaker 1: of the best and worst parts of any society. Matt Nolan,

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Speaker 1: I have all had plenty of strange adventures in small towns.

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Speaker 1: And for the good part, you know, they are the

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Speaker 1: places where people band together, communities where everyone knows your name,

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Speaker 1: people chip in to help each other out when times

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Speaker 1: are hard. But those same places can also be home

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Speaker 1: to troubling things, deep prejudice, corruption that lasts for generations.

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Speaker 1: Maybe not so keen on outsiders. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: local corruption, they can hide secrets beneath the surface, and

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Speaker 1: today's story, just to be clear, folks, contains graphic depictions

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Speaker 1: of sex and violence. As such, it may not be

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Speaker 1: appropriate for all listeners. This is close to home for us.

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Speaker 1: It takes place in our home state of Georgia, and

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Speaker 1: maybe the best way to set it up is to

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Speaker 1: say thank you because in an earlier listener mail segment,

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Speaker 1: one of our fellow conspiracy realists asked about a place

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Speaker 1: called corpse would Manner Here are the facts. Yeah, shout

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Speaker 1: out to Slayer who asked us about that or I

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Speaker 1: guess told us about that. It was one of those

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Speaker 1: things that we felt like we knew or we had

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Speaker 1: heard about, but didn't know any of the details at

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Speaker 1: the time. So thank you Slayer for letting us know

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Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, and you know, Chattuga County not to

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Speaker 1: be confused with Chattanooga, which is also not terribly far

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Speaker 1: from here in Atlanta. That's in uh Tennessee. Chattuga County

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Speaker 1: is a county in Georgia not very far from Alabama. Um,

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Speaker 1: and Ben you pointed this out. I did not realize

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Speaker 1: the proximity, but um a really cool outsider artist by

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Speaker 1: the name of Howard Finster has a incredible he's not

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Speaker 1: living anymore, but his I guess estate called Paradise Gardens

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Speaker 1: is also there in Chattuga County, UM, a population of

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Speaker 1: a little less than twenty five thousand people, beautiful outdoors

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Speaker 1: and some kind of odd like outsider art stuff. Um.

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Speaker 1: This guy like did a lot of album covers for R. E. M.

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Speaker 1: And he's you know, in a lot of modern art museums.

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Speaker 1: He's considered, like, you know, one of the great outsider artists,

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Speaker 1: very very interesting work. Um. But also Chattooga County is

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Speaker 1: home to the topic of today's episode, which is a

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Speaker 1: place called Corpse would Manor. Yeah, and uh, I you know,

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Speaker 1: even living in Georgia for some time. Uh, this this

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Speaker 1: one had been on my list of hey learn more

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Speaker 1: about this. But every every state is filled with obscure

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Speaker 1: stories that kind of fade from the news. So yes,

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Speaker 1: thank you to Slayer. I was excited to dive into

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Speaker 1: this one. Chattooga is in the very like up upper

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Speaker 1: northwest corner of Georgia, right on the border with Alabama.

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Speaker 1: Like you said, no, it's a small place. It's pretty conservative,

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Speaker 1: it's fairly religious. It's one of those places where if

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Speaker 1: you happen through it wouldn't particularly strike you as odd,

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Speaker 1: and you probably haven't heard of it unless you've heard

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Speaker 1: of Howard Finster. I was able to visit Paradise Gardens

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Speaker 1: a while back. It is well worth the day trip

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Speaker 1: if you're in the area, and his story alone is awesome,

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Speaker 1: maybe for ridiculous history in the future. Corpse would manor

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Speaker 1: is legit something you would call a castle? Uh? The

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Speaker 1: manner it's it's a compound, really. The manner itself is

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Speaker 1: built of stone by hand, pretty neat, and it's in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the Chattahoochee National Forest. Part of the

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Speaker 1: Chattahoochee National Forest is in Chattuga County. And it was

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Speaker 1: built by these two guys who stuck out like sore

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Speaker 1: thumbs in this otherwise sort of buttoned up, happy go

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Speaker 1: lucky town of Trion, which is the second largest community

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Speaker 1: in the county. Our main character, if we could call

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Speaker 1: him such, is a guy named Dr Charles Scudder. In

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Speaker 1: his previous life, Scudder was a Loyola professor of pharmacology

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Speaker 1: and assistant director of the Institute for the Study of

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Speaker 1: the Mind, Drugs and Behavior, and in nine seventy six

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Speaker 1: seventy even he does something really interesting. He leaves his

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Speaker 1: job and sells off like a bunch of his possessions,

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Speaker 1: like all like even the electronic appliances. And he and

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Speaker 1: his longtime housekeeper and partner, a guy named Joey or

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Speaker 1: Joseph Odom, they've been scouting out areas in the south

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Speaker 1: of the US and they landed on a place called

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Speaker 1: Taylor's Ridge, and they were there they wanted to build

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Speaker 1: their own sort of paradise. They definitely had a vision

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Speaker 1: in mind for construction. If you are a true crime

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Speaker 1: fan and you hear a name like corpse would Manner,

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Speaker 1: you immediately start asking yourself whether this is a work

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Speaker 1: of fiction or fact. It was the real name. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Scudder and Odom chose that name because when they arrived

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Speaker 1: at the site, they found what author Amy Potula calls

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Speaker 1: a graveyard of denuded trees. And I suspect, because Scutter

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Speaker 1: was a brilliant dude, I suspect that they were maybe

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Speaker 1: doing a little bit a word play, because you know,

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Speaker 1: copes is a word that describes a group of trees,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds really close to I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you get it. It's worth a laugh, is what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: I feel like they planned that one. Yeah maybe, and denuded.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what that meant until we looked at

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Speaker 1: you know, we're researching for this episode. But denuded, it

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Speaker 1: just means a tree that doesn't have any leaves on it,

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Speaker 1: so there's no like life to the tree that is

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Speaker 1: actually going to help it to continue to grow. Doesn't

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Speaker 1: necessarily mean that it's dead, but it's denuded. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: if there's a whole bunch of them, they're probably not

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Speaker 1: doing so great, So it would be kind of like

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Speaker 1: having a bunch of tree corpses exactly. Yeah, a copse

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Speaker 1: of tree corpses. And look, this is not the usual

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Speaker 1: run of daily events for the good folks of Treon.

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Speaker 1: Treon is one of those places where time seems to

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Speaker 1: move a little bit differently than it doesn't, say, bustling Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: A lot of officials keep their same jobs for years,

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Speaker 1: years and years. It's not a moving and shaking town

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Speaker 1: of drama and crime, and frankly, residents like it that way.

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Speaker 1: They just want to go about their business, you know.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately, like any other area of the world, Trion

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Speaker 1: is not immune to evil nor as Chattooga County. In

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Speaker 1: the fall of two, a teenager named Judith Neely and

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Speaker 1: her husband Alvin Neely, who was born in Trion, embarked

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Speaker 1: on a series of brutal kidnappings, horrific assaults, and murders

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Speaker 1: before being caught. Neely, by the way, was the ringleader

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Speaker 1: of the operation. She could be an episode all her

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Speaker 1: own um. One of her last crimes was tricking a

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Speaker 1: once they have been caught in car story. One of

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Speaker 1: her last crimes was tricking another female inmate into a

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Speaker 1: suicide pact to have that person killed themselves. Yeah, a

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Speaker 1: motive unknown. But this is also part of the part

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Speaker 1: of the eight that's home to something we talked about

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Speaker 1: a number of years ago, the tri State crematorium scandal,

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Speaker 1: where this one guy had on his own just because

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Speaker 1: he didn't want to cremate bodies. He was saying that

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Speaker 1: he cremated them, and he ended up building a mass

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Speaker 1: grave that was only later discovered in the two thousand's. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: this is the what we're saying is appearances are not

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Speaker 1: always the true substance of a place, a person, a book,

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Speaker 1: et cetera. This is the context in which the corpse

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Speaker 1: would crimes occurred, and there's a lot to dive into here,

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Speaker 1: so we're keeping the facts brief. Let's get to it.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. So we've set up corpse

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Speaker 1: would we've introduced our main characters. Maybe we can learn

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Speaker 1: a little bit about how they got there in the

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Speaker 1: first place, because I think that really sets the stage

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Speaker 1: for the events to come. It's interesting. I mean, this

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Speaker 1: this kind of small town murder mysteries, and you know,

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Speaker 1: the idea of the kind of like degenerate underbelly of

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Speaker 1: you know, Middle America or the South, or you know,

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Speaker 1: a place that has this like Sylvan kind of patina

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Speaker 1: on top that there's like, you know, there's a rot

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Speaker 1: beneath um. You know, it's obviously a really good motivation

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Speaker 1: for some from fiction, like things like Twin Peaks Um,

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Speaker 1: where you know it's all about like what's happening in

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Speaker 1: the deep dark woods, you know, behind the scenes of

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Speaker 1: like the idyllic kind of country living kind of situations.

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Speaker 1: So that's what this makes me think of. But we

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Speaker 1: have our main characters Dr Scott Well characters Samfoni. Reverting

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Speaker 1: back to the fiction idea, because this stuff is stranger

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Speaker 1: than fiction. Um, we have doctor Scudder and Joseph Odom

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Speaker 1: who had lived together for uh tens of years, like

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Speaker 1: I believe at least twenty years, if not more, UM

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Speaker 1: before they decided to move to a remote mountain area

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Speaker 1: of Taylor's Ridge in a treon Um. They started looking

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Speaker 1: at multiple places and states around the South UM where

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Speaker 1: they could get land for a really good deal. They

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Speaker 1: got the land for ten thousand, five hundred dollars sane

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Speaker 1: when you think about how much land in real estate

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Speaker 1: costs these days. UM. On his fiftieth birthday, Scudder quit

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Speaker 1: his job and they began to prepare for the move.

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Speaker 1: And Scudder he packed for the occasion. He brought some

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Speaker 1: which could I guess colloquially referred to as party favors

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Speaker 1: with him UM three glass vials containing an estimated twelve

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Speaker 1: thousand doses of the highest purest LSD imaginable like you know,

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Speaker 1: research grade material, government grade LSD and just for funzies

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Speaker 1: to human skulls. Yeah, he he liked. He liked sigils

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Speaker 1: and symbols for sure. He had also gotten really into

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Speaker 1: the Church of Satan, the old CEO s not to

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Speaker 1: be confused with the Church of Scientology and whenever we

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Speaker 1: bring up Church of Satan, this particular CEOs, we need

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Speaker 1: to point out that it is not devil worshiping, right,

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Speaker 1: it's got its it's got its roots in atheism really

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Speaker 1: and this is this is the Church of Anton LaVey.

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Speaker 1: So also these party favors, to be clear, he stole

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Speaker 1: these when he resigned from from his position. That LSD

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Speaker 1: was part of his work at the at the school,

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Speaker 1: and because he was ascribing to these sort of headonistic

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Speaker 1: do what thou wilt tenants of the Church of Satan.

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Speaker 1: He and his partner Odom wanted to find a place

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Speaker 1: off the beaten path, you know, far from the maddening crowd.

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Speaker 1: To make a very bad pun and I know it's

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Speaker 1: far from the madding crowd. Just anyone who's going to

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Speaker 1: write the email, uh, And they wanted to pursue a

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Speaker 1: life where they made their own rules without interference. Like

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Speaker 1: we said, Taylor's around fifty at this time, Taylor's Ridge

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Speaker 1: seems perfect. They have a tough time getting down there, um,

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Speaker 1: but they make a splash. People who have never met

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Speaker 1: Scudder nor Odum will participate in the small town rumor mill.

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Speaker 1: And that's why you would hear a lot of things,

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Speaker 1: especially in the like late eighties, early nineties, during different

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Speaker 1: peaks of Satanic panics. You'll hear a lot of people

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Speaker 1: who would say he's like a sinister corruptor of the innocent,

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Speaker 1: or you know, other people say he's kind of liking

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Speaker 1: avuncular guy. He likes to hand out free drugs, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you if you catch them on a good day,

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Speaker 1: maybe he'll give you some acid. But people who did

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Speaker 1: actually meet him said that he was soft spoken, he

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Speaker 1: was charming and well mannered. He was very much not

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Speaker 1: a threatening person. He was like a stereotypical professor. He

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Speaker 1: definitely didn't look like the the trope of the devil

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Speaker 1: worshiper that people described during the Satanic panic. He didn't

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Speaker 1: have like a black cloak and fake fangs and all

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Speaker 1: these pentagrams all over him just saying no, forgive me,

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Speaker 1: I don't drink vine or whatever. He was. He was

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Speaker 1: just right right to the Sheriff of Chattooga County. So

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Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, maybe he's a vampire, but I tell

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Speaker 1: you what, he is the nicest vampire I have met

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Speaker 1: in quiet sometimes. Uh. But he did have he did

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Speaker 1: have a past and This is one that I think

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Speaker 1: will be of interest to a lot of our fellow

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Speaker 1: listeners today. During his time at that institute, he conducted

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Speaker 1: government funded experiments with psychoactive drugs. Again during this time, so, like,

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Speaker 1: think about it, we're talking the seventies, some of the sixties.

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Speaker 1: This clearly ties into the looming shadow of ka Ultra.

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Speaker 1: But that's just to mention. That's just we're just pointing

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Speaker 1: out the time laying there. Anyway, they must have underestimated

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Speaker 1: Ottoman Scudder. How even even trying to keep to themselves

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Speaker 1: occasional trips into town, we're going to get attention from

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Speaker 1: locals because they were newly arrived residents at a place

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Speaker 1: that frankly doesn't have a lot of people moving in,

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Speaker 1: and they would go, you know, like they would do

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Speaker 1: things where they go in the same store every eighteen

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Speaker 1: days to re up on supplies, or they go to

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Speaker 1: send mail because as we'll see, Scutter was a prolific

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Speaker 1: letter writer and in contact with a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: But while they were doing this, they were also doing

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Speaker 1: something amazing, which is they were building their own compound.

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Speaker 1: I I was curious about this, guys. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: ask you all would you live a rustic life, Like,

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Speaker 1: would you be ready to issue electronic appliances and go

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Speaker 1: for go for the simpler, you know, bucolic lifestyle of

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Speaker 1: wood stoves and candles and oil lamps, or you're like, no,

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Speaker 1: I need the Internet. Yeah, I would totally do that

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Speaker 1: as long as I had a generator that I could

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Speaker 1: play a video game if I absolutely had to that

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Speaker 1: doesn't need an Internet connection. I would do that just

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Speaker 1: to get the fixed, right, I'm with you. Yeah. But

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Speaker 1: the you know like at Corpse would Man or this

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Speaker 1: like castle in the woods that they built, You're like,

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Speaker 1: you're right, Ben. They couldn't get the utility to send

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Speaker 1: a line out to where their property was, so they

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Speaker 1: couldn't get standard old electricity. And they also couldn't get

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Speaker 1: any water pipes from you know, the municipal water supplies

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Speaker 1: out to them, so they just had to dig a well.

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Speaker 1: And it it just weird to think that you just

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Speaker 1: go around every day using candles as your only form

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Speaker 1: of light. Once it got dark and you're in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the woods. That seems kind of scary. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And they they were really affable dudes, though. This is

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Speaker 1: one part that I think gets lost in a lot

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Speaker 1: of the descriptions of the story. So they built this

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Speaker 1: thing by hand. They've got the well, that's of course

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Speaker 1: one of the first things they build their dig out,

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Speaker 1: and then they build the manner where they live. And

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Speaker 1: these two guys do have separate bedrooms and that's where

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Speaker 1: their kitchen is library Scudder's office. But for most of

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Speaker 1: the visitors, they have quite a few visitors. The big

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Speaker 1: events took place in a three story structure called simply

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Speaker 1: the Chicken House, which for some reason that name bothers me.

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Speaker 1: And you can you can see pictures of what we're describing.

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Speaker 1: You can see most of it online today if you

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Speaker 1: just search for the right images. This thing is three stories.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't if you look at the photos, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: look like a particularly opulent structure. It looks, you know, homemade,

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Speaker 1: I guess is a way to say it. It does

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Speaker 1: have chickens on the ground floor. They raised chickens. They

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Speaker 1: also had two dogs, two very big, uh no nonsense

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Speaker 1: bodyguards of dogs. Uh yeah, this the second floor. If

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Speaker 1: you go up to the second floor, then you're gonna

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Speaker 1: see a larger and kind of pantry stocked with canned

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Speaker 1: goods that they bought at the store makes sense, especially

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Speaker 1: if you're living semi off the grid. But on that

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Speaker 1: second floor also, they have a pretty extensive collection of pornography,

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Speaker 1: like such that you would call it a library. It's

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Speaker 1: not a few nudy mags under someone's mattress. This is

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Speaker 1: like VHS pornography, right, Like they would need to be

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Speaker 1: you know, stored in many, many shelves because like you

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Speaker 1: say that, we I think we made a joke about

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Speaker 1: this before May. We were talking about this place in

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Speaker 1: the original email when it came through the idea that

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Speaker 1: I had a whole floor debdic get into pornography and

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Speaker 1: we're like and then I was like, oh yeah, you

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Speaker 1: do the math. It's like they would have probably all

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Speaker 1: been like big, you know, VHS boxes, so it would

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Speaker 1: have required some space. I'm wondering if a lot of

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Speaker 1: it was print because of the electricity. That's a good point, Um.

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Speaker 1: And if it's print, then that just means it was

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Speaker 1: even more extensive if it took up that much of

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Speaker 1: the second floor. So this is the second floor is

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Speaker 1: the porn archive. Then we have the third floor was

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Speaker 1: referred to um affectionately as the pink room. And this

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Speaker 1: is the most mysterious for this story today. Outsiders and

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Speaker 1: visitors would later take to calling it the pleasure Chamber,

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Speaker 1: with Scudder's approval. By the way, Uh, and we don't

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Speaker 1: want to king shame here, folks. This is where the

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Speaker 1: conversation gets a little mature. Yeah, so second floor porn

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Speaker 1: can beans whatever. The third floor is just one large

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Speaker 1: room and it is built as the primo hangout spot

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Speaker 1: of the manner. You go into the pink room, say

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Speaker 1: Matt Nolan, I are visiting. Uh, We're not going to

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Speaker 1: find any chairs. We're gonna find an assortment of pink

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Speaker 1: sheeted mattresses. And we're also going to find an assortment

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Speaker 1: of very specific gear, the kind of stuff that will

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Speaker 1: be familiar with b d S m enthusiast whips, chains,

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Speaker 1: other implements often referred to as toys. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: some more pornography. Um and and and it's weird because

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Speaker 1: we really looked into this, and despite years of searching,

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Speaker 1: not not years of other investigators searching, people asking police

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Speaker 1: law enforcement, g b I, which is the state level,

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Speaker 1: uh FBI, it's the Georgia Bureau of Investigation, no one

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Speaker 1: to our knowledge has found an actual photo of the interior.

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Speaker 1: So when we're telling you these things, working off descriptions

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Speaker 1: from the police, there's one thing that's still really bugs

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Speaker 1: me about this whole thing. There is what I would

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Speaker 1: call a Schrodinger's guest book. Schrodinger's guest book because it

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Speaker 1: does or does not exist, depending on who you ask.

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Speaker 1: This thing keeps receipts. Visitors signed this thing, and most

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Speaker 1: of them are outsiders that have corresponded with Scutter. But

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Speaker 1: at least one of these people, and this this is

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Speaker 1: according to law enforcement, at least one of these people

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Speaker 1: was a prominent local resident. There were also notations about guests,

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Speaker 1: alleged sexual preferences, and compromising photographs. We don't have those photographs.

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Speaker 1: We'll tell you why this is Schrodinger's book in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Later, we don't have not only don't have

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Speaker 1: those photographs, we don't have any photographs of this floor

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Speaker 1: at all. It's all just based on kind of heresy,

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Speaker 1: I mean more than hearsay. It's in police reports and

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Speaker 1: such in descriptions. But I don't believe any investigators or

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Speaker 1: any investigators that have leaked any photos to the public

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Speaker 1: um have caught a shot of this place. YEP, that's correct. Uh.

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Speaker 1: They that's why we're saying, we're working off police descriptions,

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Speaker 1: so we have to just at that point you have

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Speaker 1: to ask yourself how much trust you put in your

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Speaker 1: local authorities? Right, Maybe that's a story for another episode,

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Speaker 1: but in in our outline, we've got what appears to

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Speaker 1: be an exterior shot of the Chicken House. Do we do?

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Speaker 1: We know if that's confirmed to be? Yeah, that is.

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Speaker 1: So if you look at it, you'll see, um, the

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Speaker 1: bottom area, it's a rectangular tower, so at the bottom

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Speaker 1: area you'll see the brickwork masonry, and then on two

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Speaker 1: sides there are two apertures for windows, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think they had glass in them, or they didn't at

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Speaker 1: this time, and a doorway, and then the second floor

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Speaker 1: and the third floor wooden. And this is what makes

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Speaker 1: it creepy. I don't know if this got to you

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Speaker 1: guys as well. The second floor they're tiny, individual windows

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Speaker 1: on each side they get smaller. And then the third

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Speaker 1: floor no windows. Yeah, there's gotta be a some kind

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Speaker 1: of opening in the roof. Maybe no, And they get

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Speaker 1: water in there. I wonder how they did that. I

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Speaker 1: wonder why. Yeah, it makes you think and uh, and

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Speaker 1: we're talking a lot about these visitors, but we have

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Speaker 1: to ask ourselves, how did these people in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the woods, right the closest town is still really small,

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Speaker 1: how did they get so many visitors from across the country. Well,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for word from our sponsor, and then

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Speaker 1: we'll tell you the process of visiting Corpse would Manor.

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Speaker 1: And we're back. We've been talking about the physical corpse

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Speaker 1: would man Or location. They're out near Tryon, Georgia in summer.

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Speaker 1: Is it near Somerville too? Is that? Is that correct?

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Speaker 1: In Chattooga County? And we're we're talking about the physical location.

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Speaker 1: So the construction of the chicken house as well as

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Speaker 1: the castle, the brick castle that was Corpse would Manor. Um.

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Speaker 1: I just want to bring this up to you, guys.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the movie Hereditary? I feel like, and

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Speaker 1: you tell me if I'm wrong here, I feel like

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Speaker 1: towards the ending, I don't want to spoil it, but

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Speaker 1: there's a tree house or something like that. It's a lot,

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Speaker 1: it looks a lot like this. You're not wrong. I

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Speaker 1: wonder there was some inspiration taken from that, you know.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying it's the kind of stuff that that

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Speaker 1: director Ari Astir, He's really focused on details, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know that the location was necessarily even given for

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Speaker 1: where that movie takes place. I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: like very location forward, you know, in terms of like

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Speaker 1: we're in Portland or whatever. But it's like definitely in

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Speaker 1: a wooded area. Um. I could there are some characters

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Speaker 1: in it that almost have like Southern accents. I could

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Speaker 1: see it potentially taking place somewhere in the South. I

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Speaker 1: think the argument for Hereditary is that what you perceives

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Speaker 1: the known world or reality is all actually one small,

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Speaker 1: terrifying diorama at the at the mercy of uncaring gods.

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Speaker 1: And that's no spoiler. The first shot in the movie

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Speaker 1: zooms into a diorama, and that's where the first you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like, that's the house. That's what you know. It's

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Speaker 1: it's like, whether you want to take that as a

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Speaker 1: stylistic choice or as a indication of the greater kind

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Speaker 1: of meta uh, you know, almost like snow globe kind

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Speaker 1: of environment of that movie, that's up to you. But

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Speaker 1: I think it's the former props the Hereditary. Interesting stories

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Speaker 1: on the development of that script as well. But for

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Speaker 1: another another time, but yes, check it if you haven't

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Speaker 1: seen it yet, don't know if it's one you're gonna

404
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 1: want to rewatch with the kiddos. But it's worth Shane,

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Speaker 1: especially around Halloween, the most wonderful time of the year.

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Speaker 1: So how did all these people get there? How did

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Speaker 1: they get there? Well, they got there because they were

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Speaker 1: invited all the time, constantly by Scudder through letters. Again,

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Speaker 1: he's he's a man of letters, he's a professor, he's

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Speaker 1: a prolific correspondent, letter writer, and he is mainly writing

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Speaker 1: the dudes, people from all walks of life. People have

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Speaker 1: been in the prison system before, like his partner Odom,

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Speaker 1: people who are currently incarcerated at the time. He writes,

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Speaker 1: the teachers, he writes, the models, he writes to some

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Speaker 1: teenagers has to be admitted. And the conversations, although they

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Speaker 1: are but although the people he's writing to a wide

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Speaker 1: ranging in terms of demographic the conversations kind of have

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Speaker 1: a common theme hedonism, sexual activity. And he's very clear

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Speaker 1: about this when he's inviting people and saying, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: come visit Joey and me at corpse would. He also

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Speaker 1: goes on to describe in detail, like body parts and

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Speaker 1: activities that they could engage with during their time at

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Speaker 1: the manor if they're into it. Another thing about this

424
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: guy is he's very um like open about consent, you know,

425
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: so that that's something that got missed later on in

426
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: the trials, which is important. So this is a success.

427
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: It's kind of a numbers game. You know, you're right

428
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: to x amount of people and then some certain percentage

429
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: say okay, I'll take you up on it. And so

430
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: they have visitors come for what they would call sex

431
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: and game parties. Scudder and Odom make their own wine.

432
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: They have this homemade wine. They may have been administering

433
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: some of that Primo LSD and then they would engage

434
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: in sexual activity. Again if people were down. They had

435
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: a lot of folks who visited who had no interest

436
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: in or knowledge of this activity. Like there would be

437
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: a lot of hunters in the area because it's a

438
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: rural environment, and they would be walking on on the

439
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: guy's land, but they would know it was private land.

440
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: So they would contact them and say, hey, is it

441
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 1: okay if you know I hunt deer or something around here,

442
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: and they would say, yeah, for sure, man, you want

443
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 1: to hang out. We got wide and hunters would hang

444
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:29,919
Speaker 1: out and then you know, at some point right right, right,

445
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 1: And and usually if from what we could tell, if

446
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: someone said no, thanks, that's that's not um my area

447
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: of interest, they would say, oh, okay, yeah, fine, Well

448
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, come by any time if you change me here. Well,

449
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: we got the LSD, we got the pink room. You know. Look,

450
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: we've we've been doing experiments with the mind for quite

451
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: a while, at least back then. Not anymore though, right sure, yeah,

452
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. So, like the I would say,

453
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: there are two genres a visitor. There are the locals

454
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: who are curious or happened to be there for another reason.

455
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: That would include hunters. That would include um, college age kids,

456
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,239
Speaker 1: that would include um even the police swing by of

457
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 1: course uh. And the the other genres, the visitors who

458
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: went on purpose because they had spoken via post with

459
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: Scudder and they wanted to have this experience. They believed

460
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: that they were going for a certain thing, and there

461
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 1: was a process. They had to arrive a few days

462
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: before things got rolling, and Scudder would conduct a kind

463
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: of medical exam that to him, established their physical and

464
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: psychological fitness for what was about to happen. Important to

465
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: note Scudder not a medical doctor. He's not. He has

466
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: a wide range of experience and scholarship in the workings

467
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 1: of the human mind. But that's not the same thing

468
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: as you know, being a cardiologist or GP or something. Anyway,

469
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: there's an example of what you could expect now we

470
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: found from a guy named Ben Bellinger. Ben Belinger, local

471
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: from the area, goes on to be an attorney, a

472
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: defense attorney. And in the trial we're about to learn

473
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: about and and Ben Bellinger says, you know, one time

474
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, me and uh, me and

475
00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: a friend of mine got got really interested from what

476
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: we heard from the room or mill, and we rode

477
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: up to Taylor's Ridge. We wanted to check out the

478
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: scene because we heard, you know, anybody can show up,

479
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: and we found quote, a bunch of college kids in

480
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: white robes who are apparently stoned out of their minds uh.

481
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 1: And again, I know it sounds like a weird vibe.

482
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: And yes there's uh, there's imagery everywhere that would be

483
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 1: familiar to demonologists and stuff like that. But almost everyone

484
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 1: who later spoke about their experiences at the manor usually

485
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: reported that they had a good time and if they

486
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 1: if they didn't, you know, engage in what Scudder was

487
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: super into. Uh. They still said, actually, they're really nice guys,

488
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: which kind of runs counter to the narrative of sinister

489
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 1: Satanist in the woods, you know. Yeah, and they were

490
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: described as kind of being like pretty unassuming, kind of

491
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: just regular regular joes. This is also kind of the

492
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: way people usually describe serial killers. Just for the records,

493
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this, I hope in that ending with Hereditary,

494
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: guess what they're all wearing up in that treehouse. The

495
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: ropes waked. You know, they're naked, but n then they

496
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: get naked so real Corpse would manner vibes, you know,

497
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: and you can't completely agree. No, got naked more quickly

498
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: than the than the folks in Hereditary though, and probably

499
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: the folks of Corpse would the guys in the New

500
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: Kids in the Hall. First, Oh my god, I'm that's

501
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: a spoiler. That's just let to let you know, folks,

502
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it yet. There's no like, there's

503
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: there's no lead up, there's no like hey, heads up,

504
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: like down. It's weird too, because it's not just like

505
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: a quick shot. It's like them they're stricted to jump

506
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: up and down and stuff. It's like the helicopter. Yeah.

507
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: And uh, anyway, we're all big kids in the hall

508
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 1: fans which were to the wise. Uh, they are going

509
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 1: to surprise you. I just watched the baby dropping sketch,

510
00:31:53,240 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: like the percentage of babies that's actually really percent percent.

511
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: Uh that is I want to rewatch that one. But yes,

512
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: So despite all the weirdness, the eccentricity, and let's remember

513
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: that people in this area are kind of familiar town eccentrics,

514
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: Howard Fenster is like in their minds. He's mainly a

515
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: bicycle repairment and a guy who occasionally is is very

516
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: vocal street preacher. But he also makes art and he's

517
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: part of the community, you know what I mean. He's

518
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: like our weird guy. Like every neighborhood in the city

519
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: has our weird person. We've got um. For many years

520
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, there was Baton Bob. Baton Bob is

521
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: who was local figure who used to go outside and

522
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: parade around in front of our old office. Pretty nice

523
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: guy and he just does these one person like, uh

524
00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: Baton performances wouldn't hurt a fly, you know, uh, and

525
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: looked fabulous. It was it was definitely just an outfit

526
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 1: that you could you could spot from way down the

527
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:14,760
Speaker 1: road right oh to Bob's coming. Yeah yeah, driving driving

528
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: friends from out of town, just like showing the office

529
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: or something, given the Nickel tour, and they would sometimes

530
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 1: say who the hell is that and I would say that, um,

531
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: that's Bob, and we go Bob, you don't and I

532
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: say baton, Bob, as though that explained everything, like they

533
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: would go, oh yeah, yeah. Anyhow, So the question for

534
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,080
Speaker 1: some of the locals in this rumor mill is are

535
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 1: these guys dangerous they seem nice when we talk to them,

536
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 1: or are they, you know, just kind of harmless eccentrics,

537
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: like like that guy who fixed his bicycles up the

538
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: way and police come and visit them and say, you know, hey,

539
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 1: what's going on here? Just want to check in, And

540
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 1: they have a great conversation with law enforcement and they say, hey,

541
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's great to me you, I know

542
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: your work. Do you want to come in? We got

543
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: we got wine and the cops. You know, there's there's

544
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: a little bit of hubbub as as things progress, because

545
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: some members of law enforcement want to see if they

546
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: can shut down these folks who are, from their perspective,

547
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: devil worshippers, and they can't because the US for now

548
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: practices freedom of religion. And this this is still intriguing though,

549
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: so they leave, but they've got their eye on folks.

550
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: And the mystery is compounded when some visitors say that

551
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: Scudder tells them essentially he's only kind of retired, and

552
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 1: that he is continuing some version of the experiments he

553
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: conducted at Loyola. He is fascinated by the inner workings

554
00:34:56,239 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: of the human mind. One eyewitness later goes on to

555
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 1: say that he kind of enjoyed poking at psychological mechanisms

556
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 1: like a quote kid poking at a nest or an

557
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 1: aunt hill or a snake with a stick. So it's

558
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: a weird vibe, for sure. It's a vibe. And we

559
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: can't can't over emphasize just how riddle this place was

560
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: with stuff that people would call satanic sigils. No judgment,

561
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: We're just saying, like, you know, they're like four chimneys

562
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: on top of the main manner. Each one is emblazoned

563
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 1: with a pentagram statues of Mephistopheles um. Who are some

564
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: of the other ones? And I know you guys know

565
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,880
Speaker 1: there's also a Satanic bible. Yeah, those two giant mastiffs

566
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: that they had on the property were beazel Bub and

567
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: arson Af. Beazel Bub is a demon arson as is

568
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: from HP Lovecraft or it's a character that's not really

569
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 1: fair to the dog. That's a lot to remember, you know,

570
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: surely they have pet names. But but yeah, so they're

571
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: they're definitely going for a theme. Here is what is

572
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: what we're saying. But they're not harming anyone, and they're

573
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 1: asking for consent and they're like pretty pretty nice. They

574
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: welcome anybody wants to hang, including like bikers. Uh, there's

575
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: a there was a motorcycle club that felt pretty messed

576
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: up about the tragic events that would later occur because

577
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: they kicked it with these guys and they said, look,

578
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: these dudes know how to party. They showed us a

579
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: great time. They didn't judge us, and we feel like

580
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: we dropped the ball because we were very protective of them, right,

581
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 1: and this is um, this same friendliness on their part,

582
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 1: the same kind of trusting nature of people is ultimately

583
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: what led to their murders. So let's go to that.

584
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 1: It's December six too. We're gonna jump around a time

585
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: a little bit. There's a guy named Raymond Williams. He's

586
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: a friend of this couple. He goes by corpse would

587
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: to give them the unpleasant news or the sad news

588
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: that another one of their mutual friends has passed away.

589
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: When Raymond gets to the door, he sees their bullet

590
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: holes in the door. He sees their holes in the

591
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: window as well, so he ties high tails it out

592
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: and he alerts the authorities. They arrive on the scene.

593
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 1: They find that Charles Scudder and Joseph Odom have been

594
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: fatally shot. Charles was found in the library, multiple gunshot

595
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: wounds to his head. Joseph was found in the kitchen,

596
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: shot fatally in the head and neck around four times.

597
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: Those dogs were also dead, and it appeared that someone

598
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: around the same time it tossed the house trying to

599
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: trying to steal stuff. Right, it looked like a robbery.

600
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: It looks so much like a robbery that sorities were

601
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: convinced that that's what it was. Jewelry was taken like

602
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: a gold plated dagger, a lot of the strange symbolic objects.

603
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: So investigators found a witness uh named Teresa Hudgens eighteen,

604
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: who was UM, actually had a date lined up with

605
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: a guy named Joey Wells on December twelfth of nWo

606
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: and Joey's uncle it was a thirty year old man

607
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: named Samuel Tony west Um. Joey's car broke down and

608
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: Tony offered to give the kids and the teenagers a

609
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: ride back. He was also accompanied by another seventeen year

610
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 1: old named Kenneth Avery Brock. Brock and Tony actually lived

611
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: together and a trailer nearby. Um. Both had checkered, troubled pasts.

612
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: Brock had spent some time with Scudder and Odom Uh

613
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: previously and he thought they were rich, uh, and he

614
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: told Tony that they should rob them. Um, they should

615
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: rob but this eccentric couple living out on the ridge,

616
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 1: which they decided to do uh the moment they saw

617
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: an opportunity present itself, which it did on December twelfth.

618
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 1: They had an ulterior motive right for giving giving these

619
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: kids on a date a ride, And they had planned

620
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: this and on the on the way, on the way

621
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 1: they're going to corpse would manor And it feels like

622
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 1: it was slightly premeditated, right, because they did. They had

623
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: been thinking about doing this robbery. But you have to

624
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: wonder if they would have gone on December the twelfth,

625
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 1: if Joey Wells's card not broken down. Kind of bringing

626
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: it back to their minds, why is their mental state

627
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: subject of importance? Here? Well, on the way to corpse

628
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: would manner they weren't driving particularly responsibly. They were huffing

629
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: homemade uh, homemade concoction of theirs. It contained alcohol, paint dinner,

630
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: and glue. And and Matt, I think you're a you're

631
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: a fan of the name as well, right, yeah, tulu Uh,

632
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 1: it's so funny. At the Webby Awards, big Bird was

633
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 1: there and he accepted his award and his sign off

634
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: was totalu. And I just couldn't believe that there's a

635
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: thing called tutelu that is actually paint dinner that you huff. Um.

636
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 1: It's also oh yeah, well it's also I think it's

637
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: called too lean or something something to that effect. You

638
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: can look it up. It is an industrial solvent and

639
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: gets used for several things, but one thing you can

640
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 1: use is to huff and associate and have some really

641
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: bad effects on your body, right and your mind. So

642
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 1: they get their things go south quickly, Uh, Scutter and

643
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: Odo remember Brock from earlier, and they say, oh, hey,

644
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: you guys here, you want to hang out? This is great,

645
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: so let's go to the pink room. And they go

646
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: and hang out in the pink room. They're drinking wine,

647
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: and then after a brief hanging sash Brock goes back

648
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: outside retrieves a rifle from their vehicle. He comes back

649
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: and he holds Scudder at gunpoint or knife point, depending

650
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: on the story, but I believe it's gunpoint because you

651
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: can you can see some harrowing accounts of this where

652
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: in Scudder is kind of inebriated a little bit at

653
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: this point, and he's saying he first sees the gun

654
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: and he says bang bang ha ha, and then he

655
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: realizes they're not playing, and things just quickly escalate. Brock Inton,

656
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,720
Speaker 1: you're telling this guy to produce the cash. They're convinced

657
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: their millionaires, right because they have a mansion in the

658
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: mill of nowhere. All they appear to do with party

659
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,839
Speaker 1: and work on their mansion. But they don't know that

660
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: Scudder and Odom spent pretty much all their scratch building

661
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 1: this strange compound. In fact, they're living on about two

662
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: dollars a month. This is ideological for them. So at

663
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: this point I want to say, just if we can

664
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: practice empathy and imagine those poor kids, Joey Wells and Teresa.

665
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: This is the worst date ever. And in first the

666
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: car doesn't work, then people are huffing when they drive

667
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: you someplace. Then you know you're drinking wine under age,

668
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: and then it looks like, oh, I've accidentally been at

669
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: a robbery. I think the statue of limitations has past.

670
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I've accedentally been at some robberies. And

671
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: as weird as it sounds, especially people with an unstable

672
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: mental state, they might not mention their true intentions until

673
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: it's too late for you to get out. So Joey

674
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: and Teresa immediately try to run, and they say, Okay,

675
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: we're gonna hop in this. You know what, We're gonna

676
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,359
Speaker 1: just get out of here. We're gonna steal a car.

677
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: These guys are crazy. I'm sorry about my uncle, and

678
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: the car won't start. Rock murders Joseph Odham and the dogs.

679
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: Tony takes Scudder into the manner where he murders him

680
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: as well. Probably after again and try and you know,

681
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 1: say where's the money? Giving the money? And they ransacked

682
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: the house and turns out Scudder and Odam, we're telling

683
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: the truth. They don't have they have loads of cash

684
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 1: in some sort of secret treasure trove. Uh. The the

685
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,359
Speaker 1: robbers find or they make off with some jewelry like

686
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: the gold plated dagger we mentioned, a couple other like

687
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: amulets and brick a brack basically, and then they flee

688
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: and they make it to Mississippi. They try to do

689
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: a carjacking on a Navy lieutenant I believe named Kirby Phelps.

690
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 1: Their original plan was to get Phelps out of the car,

691
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 1: tie them to a tree, steal the vehicle, but Tony

692
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: kills him and then eventually they split ways in Texas.

693
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: So Brock eventually turns himself in on December twenty, and

694
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 1: then a few days later, Tony is apprehended in Tennessee. Um,

695
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:07,280
Speaker 1: the leads to an investigation and a subsequent satanic panic

696
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 1: right there in Chattuga County, Georgia. We're going to talk

697
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: about both of those things and how they relate to

698
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: one another. After another quick break and we're back. Um,

699
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 1: So the trial becomes an absolute public you know, pandemonium. Um,

700
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: it's absolutely a circus of epic proportions. You gotta remember,

701
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: this is a part of the country that has a

702
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: lot of deep rooted fears of things like Satanism, of

703
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: things like ritual sacrifice, of anything that runs counter to

704
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: kind of evangelical Christianity. And this is not pigeonholing. I mean,

705
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 1: we'd speak from experience. Even here in Atlanta, which is

706
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 1: much more of a kind of a liberal bastion. In Georgia,

707
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: you have plenty of folks that see the devil everywhere. Uh,

708
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 1: much more of the case once you get into more

709
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: rural parts of the state. Um, so we'll just imagine,

710
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: imagine there are a bunch of rumors going around about

711
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 1: somebody in town, you know, some pretty prominent place within town.

712
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: But it is rumors you've heard tell from maybe a cousin,

713
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: maybe somebody went to high school with, but you haven't

714
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: seen it a while, and they just mentioned something about it.

715
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, down at the courthouse

716
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: of your small town, there's a big trial happening with

717
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: guys you know, who supposedly killed people who lived there

718
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 1: in that rumored place. And there are all there's all

719
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: this laundry, some of it dirty coming out about the

720
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: specific lifestyle, right, Like you said, Noel, that is not

721
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 1: common for that town, not openly, not practiced to openly

722
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 1: be the idea. Yeah, and this this is terrible because

723
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: there are two two flavors of investigation happening, two different

724
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 1: halls of court. Won the actual court of the US

725
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: won the court of public opinion. The murderers are on

726
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: trial in the actual court, but in the court of

727
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: public opinion, the lifestyle of the victims is on trial

728
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,240
Speaker 1: just as much as the real crimes. And these guys

729
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: are labeled and this is not our phrase, this is

730
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: the phrase that was used at the time, both in

731
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:29,359
Speaker 1: court and in the media. They're labeled quote homosexual devil worshippers.

732
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 1: And they are, like you guys are saying, they're super

733
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:38,280
Speaker 1: easy targets of the satanic panic that's sweeping the nation

734
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: at the time. This is when Wuiji boards were considered

735
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: the number one mass produced way to speak to infernal forces. Uh,

736
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: because that's how they get you. I guess at the

737
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: games department in your local local department store. Oh, Milton Bradley,

738
00:46:56,239 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 1: you know, the devil's in anisle six I guess, but

739
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: but yeah, six narratives. So so Dr Anton Leavey is

740
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: aware of this, and he's clearly livid because he says, look,

741
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: you know what this is. These murders are evidence that

742
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,879
Speaker 1: there are areas of the US where you are going

743
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: to be attacked for having beliefs that don't fit the

744
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: status quo. Right, huge proponent of freedom of religion, whatever

745
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,359
Speaker 1: else be said about him, And for the record, this

746
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,240
Speaker 1: is absolutely true. I mean, you know, we think about

747
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: people in the l g B, t q UM community

748
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: um being victims of hate crimes and beatings. I mean,

749
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: that happened in places other than the Deep South, but

750
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,879
Speaker 1: it was certainly a little more prevalent. And now, with

751
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, trans rights being kind of in the forefront

752
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 1: and getting more widespread adoption and respect, you have play

753
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: is in the South that are trying to pass laws

754
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: that prohibit um discussion of any kind of pronouns or

755
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: or trans related rights. UM. So we're kind of circling

756
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,399
Speaker 1: back in a way to what Dr Levy was talking about.

757
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 1: It absolutely is a prejudice that exists in this part

758
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 1: of the country, very much so, and not just this country. Obviously,

759
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: there's still many, many areas of the world where people

760
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:28,919
Speaker 1: are risking their lives in the legal system for being

761
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: who they are, you know, and and remember that the

762
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: true definition of state power is monopoly over violence, which

763
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: is a point I wish people would bring up more often. Anyhow, Yes,

764
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: the idea of homophobia plays a huge role in this trial.

765
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: The defense initially accuses doctor Scudder of spiking that homemade

766
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: wine with LSD because that would somehow make these people

767
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: more likely to quote participate in sex with him. But

768
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: law enforcement tested the wine and it not only didn't

769
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: have LSD in it, they have any other kind of

770
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 1: psychoactive drug. The only drug I had in there it

771
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 1: was alcohol because it was homemade hooch, So that that

772
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: defense falls through. And then when that fails, West argues

773
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: that he is m if not unintentionally drugged, he is

774
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,760
Speaker 1: unintentionally intoxicated against his will. They get him drunk um

775
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, to to lou Aside. And then the defense

776
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: even says in the trial at some point that Scudder

777
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: had a motive to harm these guys because he was

778
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 1: a homosexual. And then West, during his confession at some

779
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: point says, look, all I can say is they were

780
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,799
Speaker 1: devils and I killed him. That's how I feel about it.

781
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 1: As you can see is are not the most sympathetic

782
00:49:54,640 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 1: of criminals. Yeah, and this this goes on, and honestly,

783
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: the the thing is because these people had a lifestyle

784
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: that folks found controversial in the area. Uh, you could

785
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:16,240
Speaker 1: wonder what their ultimate sentencing would have been, but everyone

786
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: could agree, everyone in the court could agree that the

787
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: murder of the Navy lieutenant was indeed a serious crime.

788
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: And that's that's one of the things that really got

789
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: the judge to go hard on them. Um. One of them, Tony,

790
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,319
Speaker 1: was initially given the death penalty, but due to what

791
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: was described as a lack of women in the jury

792
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: at the original trial, he got a retrial and then

793
00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 1: he was given life in prison. Uh. The other guy

794
00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: got life in prison as well. At the time of

795
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: this recording, both men are alive. They are incarcerated in

796
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: Georgia in two separate facilities. But you know, no matter

797
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: what what happened this to someone after they had murdered

798
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: a person, those murder those murder victims don't come back,

799
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And so you have to

800
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 1: wonder about justice. You have to wonder about seriously a

801
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: lot of things with this investigation. Let's go back to

802
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: this what we mentioned earlier. What happened to that guest

803
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: book that was described as a diary? Why why do

804
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: some people deny it existed at all? Dude lawyer? Several

805
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 1: lawyers in the murder case claimed that not only was

806
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: it not around, but that they had never heard of it.

807
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: So either they're embellishing or maybe the chain of custody

808
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: you broke down before it got to them. What do

809
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 1: you guys think? I don't know. It seems like one

810
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 1: of those things that you may have taken if you

811
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: knew what it was, if you know, you just committed

812
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:52,720
Speaker 1: a crime there, because it does have records of people

813
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: who have been there, and probably including them, but who knows.

814
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: And you shared a really interesting link with us been

815
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,400
Speaker 1: law dot Justia dot com, j U s t i

816
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,799
Speaker 1: A dot com And in there you can see the

817
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 1: case West versus State. I think you might be able

818
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: to find it if if you search the number two

819
00:52:12,880 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: five two and then g A for Georgia one five six.

820
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: I know it's a lot of weird things, but you

821
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: can find it. It's got information in there that Ben

822
00:52:23,040 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: is referring to where their different attorneys kind of giving

823
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 1: some interesting arguments that occurred throughout the cases. There things

824
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: that I just didn't even know existed. But that's how

825
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: I learned about tutelu. Is there is there reber? I mean,

826
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: I think tutalu in the British parlance is spelled like

827
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 1: with a D, and this one is spelled to dash

828
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: a dash lou. Obviously they're referencing something similar. I don't

829
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: know what came first, but yeah, it's definitely tout lou

830
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: is just like a kind of a corny, almost British farewell.

831
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,200
Speaker 1: But guys, is there a sense like, I mean, the

832
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 1: motivations for these murders seems pretty clear and tied to

833
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: a crime of opportunity, you know that went horribly wrong. Um,

834
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,319
Speaker 1: but because of this guest book and the idea of

835
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: prominent local people being in it, potentially is there a

836
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: sense that that that this was potentially a hit job

837
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 1: or something more than the surface? Uh, you know, evidence

838
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: might suggest I see. This is something I went back

839
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: and forth on as well, because for people who are

840
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: a little more conspiratorially minded about this, there are a

841
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,800
Speaker 1: lot of questions like you would have to ask yourself

842
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: about the extent of doctors Scudder's involvement with government sponsored experimentation. Right,

843
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: that's one. That's one unresolved string, not saying has anything

844
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:52,839
Speaker 1: to do with the murder. It's an unresolved string though.

845
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: And then another thread would um. Another thread would be

846
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: good old fashioned prejudice or maybe self preservation if there was,

847
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,799
Speaker 1: if there was, again this still unknown prominent local who

848
00:54:06,880 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: wanted to silence any evidence of their involvement with these folks,

849
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 1: because again, Scudder and oed Um kind of open books

850
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,120
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, Like if you ask them, hey,

851
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 1: do you know so and so, they probably say, oh, yeah,

852
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,399
Speaker 1: so and so comes to all the time. Great guy

853
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: had a pegging sess yesterday. It was awesome, right right,

854
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: So it maybe something like that, but we'll never know

855
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: unless that guestbook surfaces or less. Someone could actually prove

856
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 1: it is real, like it's weird, because the trial witness

857
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:47,439
Speaker 1: Tracy Bell Wilson and a former sheriff, Gary McConnell say

858
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: it was indeed real. McConnell encountered it. McConnell is on

859
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: record claiming, yeah, I saw it, I found it, I

860
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: turned it in as evidence. But I have no idea

861
00:54:55,960 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 1: what happened to it after it entered into the evidence room,

862
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: and to this date, no one knows where that book is.

863
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 1: Is it possible that someone purposely lost the evidence to

864
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: preserve the reputation of a prominent local, whoever they might be.

865
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: There's no solid proof of it, but I know for

866
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 1: a lot of us in the audience today, you hear

867
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: something like that, and you go small towns, they can

868
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: keep secrets. And I don't know if you guys found

869
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: this in your research, but there are some kind of

870
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 1: like expl I don't know, ghost hunter site exploration type

871
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 1: videos um with people going, you know, finding this place.

872
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 1: It's not the most straightforward place to find, but you

873
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 1: can't find it um and at least the site of it.

874
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: And there's one YouTube video in particular where some folks

875
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 1: are like, you know, backpacking through the woods and they

876
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 1: and they find their way to the site and there's

877
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 1: reports of spooky goings on at the site. Yeah, it's

878
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: on Google Maps, and if you look at the images

879
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: on there in search corpsewould manner, you can see kids

880
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: hanging out with their parents like little kids. Uh. They

881
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: saw one picture in particular, nol looks like Eden from

882
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, just hanging out by the ruins, like, hey, look, yeah,

883
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: garps would manner um because everything would manner sounds like

884
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: a location in elden Ring. I mean it really does.

885
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: It's it's got such a such a fantasy goth kind

886
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: of love crafty and vibe to it. Sure, yeah, yeah,

887
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,120
Speaker 1: And today the manner, the manner has fallen to ruin.

888
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's got, it's overgrown, there's graffiti on multiple surfaces.

889
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: And if you want to visit, you need to be

890
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: aware that um as as I mentioned in a first

891
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: conversation about this, it's on private land, So just have

892
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: that in your back pocket, right, you need to understand

893
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: that it can be considered trespassing to get there. Obviously,

894
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: that doesn't worry a ton of people, and obviously there

895
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,320
Speaker 1: are mechanisms to ask whether you can go on that land,

896
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,200
Speaker 1: just the same way that hunters used to ask Scudder

897
00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: and Odum if it was okay to hunt deer there.

898
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: This still hasn't stopped people from speculating about some hidden

899
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,960
Speaker 1: story behind these tragic events, And of course rumors are

900
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 1: not people. They don't have to respect trespassing laws. That's

901
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 1: why you hear so much scuttle But now where people

902
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: will say that there might be ghostly forces, you'll hear

903
00:57:26,000 --> 00:57:30,880
Speaker 1: rumors mature able to confirm or untrue about some hidden

904
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:33,880
Speaker 1: underground layer, a lab of some sort that does not

905
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 1: appear to be the case. The main digging those guys

906
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: did was to create that. Well. You also hear people

907
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: say it has a deep kind of vibe um, a

908
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: vibration and emanation of sadness, you know, like folks who

909
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: feel that they are sensitive as as they would sometimes

910
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: be described, will say, you know something happened here. Uh,

911
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff is really hard to prove whether

912
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: you know the legitimacy of that. But they will also

913
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: say they hear the ghost of gunshots, strange echoes barking,

914
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: They might even see glowing eyes in the night. But

915
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: what we can see in this case, what can be proven,

916
00:58:12,920 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 1: does not need to be supernatural, is the story ultimately prejudice, petty,

917
00:58:18,040 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: criminal motivation, and in some cases it's a story of

918
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: a small town home to some stuff they don't want

919
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:29,040
Speaker 1: you to know unless the guest book comes out. Yeah,

920
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: did we even mention the rumor that Scudder supposedly summon

921
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: a demon to protect the manner and the property. We

922
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: did not, And part of that is because the the

923
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff I was reading, particularly the

924
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: book The Corpse would Manner Murders in North Georgia by

925
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 1: Amy Ptola. It it mentions that and says that they

926
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: couldn't find any evidence for it. But it is You're right, Matt,

927
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: that's one of like the long running at least rumors

928
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: from I could tell it's commonly accepted, is fact. I

929
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: just couldn't. Plus, how could you confirm that? You have

930
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 1: to have Scudder tell you right? I guess. So it

931
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: just seems an interesting thing, especially for anyone who wants

932
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: to go back out there. I can imagine why. That

933
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: makes it massively intriguing, still roaming the land, although it

934
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: did not protect Charles and Mr Odom. Well, that's the

935
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: thing about working with those sorts of forces. Uh, it's

936
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 1: typically in the world of those belief systems, it's not

937
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: a sustainable relationship. Yeah, henyone guys Glady talked about it again. Yeah,

938
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: it's uh, and it really has you know, especially the

939
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: part where the fiction mind you know, would take this

940
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 1: in a much more conspiratoral direction, would be that guest

941
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: book and who was in that guest book and was

942
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:55,320
Speaker 1: it really a cover up? And were the rituals real.

943
00:59:55,440 --> 00:59:57,080
Speaker 1: It's like all the things that I think intrigued us

944
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: about Season one of True Detectives so much, h um,

945
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: you know, believing that maybe there was real magic. And

946
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 1: you know then of course the participation of high ranking

947
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: government officials, because even though we know Georgia and the South, uh,

948
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 1: these things don't fly publicly, this idea of free wheeling

949
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: sex parties and all of that stuff and you know,

950
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: hedonistic behavior. We also know what happens. We also know

951
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 1: politicians do that stuff and they cover it up because

952
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: of it's all about appealing to the voters and the constituencies,

953
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,959
Speaker 1: and in those people are typically you know, the ones

954
01:00:35,000 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: that are really active and and make sure to have

955
01:00:37,240 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: their vote heard, or like older folks that uh are

956
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 1: very right leaning and and and don't you know, god

957
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: fearing types. So that's the fun part about, you know,

958
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 1: taking real stories like this and kind of crafting them

959
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,720
Speaker 1: into critique on on society. I mean, I think there's

960
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:55,919
Speaker 1: enough of that already built into the story in terms

961
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 1: of the critique on society part. But I'm fascinated by

962
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 1: the idea of taking like these kind of real true

963
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,760
Speaker 1: crime stories and using them as fodder for for much

964
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 1: more outlandish fiction. But you really need to go much

965
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: more outlantist than the story already does. Well, and and

966
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: again just to get the legal department off the off

967
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 1: ban Key star in the future here, UH found no

968
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 1: solid proof of a cover up? Just where where is

969
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: the guest book? And I think that's a fair question

970
01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 1: to ask. That's the question a lot of other people

971
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 1: have asked too. We hope you I don't think it.

972
01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 1: Enjoy this episode is the right way to say it,

973
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 1: but we we hope you found it uh as fascinating

974
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 1: as we did, and we hope it left you with

975
01:01:38,120 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: some of the same questions. Um. Even more importantly, we

976
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: want to hear your stories about places like this or

977
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: occurrences like this in your neck of the global woods.

978
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: Let us know, fellow conspiracy realists, we can't wait to

979
01:01:52,440 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 1: hear from you. We try to be easy to find online.

980
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter and Facebook and YouTube

981
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 1: where we are at Conspiracy Stuff. On Instagram we are

982
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: at Conspiracy Stuff Show. You can check out our merchandise

983
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: if you wish that's a weird thing to think about.

984
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: There's a t public site. Just search for stuff they

985
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:14,720
Speaker 1: don't want you to know. You'll find it. There's also

986
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 1: a book. It's coming out in October of this year.

987
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 1: If you'd like to preorder, you can do that right now.

988
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:23,959
Speaker 1: You can head on over to stuff you should read

989
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 1: books and do that right now if you wish. If

990
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 1: you don't want to contact us on social media, or

991
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: you don't want to buy the book yet, why not

992
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 1: then give us a phone call. That's right and give

993
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 1: us a call at one eight three three st d

994
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: w y t K. Leave your story, your message, your question,

995
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: your request. At the sound of the beep, following Ben's

996
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: very familiar introduction, you got three minutes. Those three minutes

997
01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 1: are yours? Do with them? What thou wilst If you

998
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: catch mind drift, and if that's not enough time for

999
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 1: you to tell your tale, why, by all means reach

1000
01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: out to us in the old fashioned way with an email.

1001
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:23,760
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they

1002
01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:25,640
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1003
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,919
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1004
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,720
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1005
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Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows,