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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: The Delphi murders trial finally commences, with Libby just fourteen

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Speaker 2: and Abby thirteen. Photos of their bodies found their throats

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Speaker 2: slit tears in the courtroom working over the weekend, witnesses

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Speaker 2: breaking down on the stand, one witness stating, when I

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Speaker 2: first saw them, I thought they were mannequins. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: As soon as you get into town, I mean, it's picturesque,

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Speaker 3: it's beautiful, everybody's super friendly. You're talking about Delphi, Indiana.

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Speaker 4: It was supposed to be a walk in the wood

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Speaker 4: shared by two friends, Abby Williams and Lebby Jerman went

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Speaker 4: to this hiking trail in near Delphi's monin high Bridge.

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Speaker 3: But there's no way you find that if you're not

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Speaker 3: from there.

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Speaker 4: When the girls didn't return to the spot where they

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Speaker 4: were supposed to be picked up, their families knew something

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Speaker 4: was wrong.

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Speaker 5: They thought maybe the girls were hurt. That bridge is treacherous,

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Speaker 5: and they never thought they would hear that the girls

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Speaker 5: were murdered.

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Speaker 6: Directly to the killer, who may be in this room.

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Speaker 6: We believe you are hiding in plain sight. For more

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Speaker 6: than two years. You never thought we would shift gears

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Speaker 6: to a different investigative strategy.

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Speaker 2: But we have.

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Speaker 6: We likely have interviewed you or someone close to you.

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Speaker 6: We know that this is about power to you, and

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Speaker 6: you want to know what we know, and one day

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Speaker 6: you will.

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Speaker 1: That day is now.

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Speaker 2: You were just hearing a direct warning from Indiana State

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Speaker 2: Police Superintendent Doug Carter, And oh how right he was

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Speaker 2: when he gave that chilling warning. For two years, you

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Speaker 2: never thought we would shift gears to an investigative strategy,

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Speaker 2: a new strategy. We have likely interviewed you, And as

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Speaker 2: it turns out, the you to whom he refers was

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Speaker 2: a local pharmacy tech that had waited on Libby and

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Speaker 2: Abby's family for years, even process their photos for free.

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Speaker 2: How many times do you think he poured over photos,

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Speaker 2: candid photos of those girls, watching them come in and

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Speaker 2: out of the pharmacy. Again, this is crime stories. I'm

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Speaker 2: Nancy Grayson. I want to thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: The trial has commenced.

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Speaker 1: Listen. Even though the.

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Speaker 7: Case of Libby German and Abby Williams murders has been

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Speaker 7: in the news for years, police have never said how

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Speaker 7: the girls were killed during his opening statement, prosecutor Nick

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Speaker 7: mcglealand told the jury, you're going to see the crime scene.

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Speaker 7: It was a gruesome scene. Libby was completely naked, her

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Speaker 7: throat was cut, blood all over. Abby's throat was also cut.

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Speaker 2: Joining us at the courthouse is investigative reporter Susan Henrys.

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Speaker 1: But before I go to her, I.

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Speaker 2: Want to go out to Matt Murphy, high profile lawyer,

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Speaker 2: former Orange County homicide prosecutor, ABC legal analyst and author

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Speaker 2: of the book of Murder.

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Speaker 1: Matt, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: I would try to warn victims' families about photos that

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Speaker 2: would be introduced into court, and very often those photos

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Speaker 2: would be put up on a slide show or hand

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Speaker 2: it out to the jury so the victims families could

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Speaker 2: be prepared. But I don't think there is ever any

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Speaker 2: way to prepare the families of Libby, Liberty and Abby

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Speaker 2: for what they are about to see.

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Speaker 1: The girl's throats slashed.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I agree, I mean, it's this is a it's

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Speaker 8: brutal for families. What you have to do as a prosecutor, though,

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Speaker 8: is it's all about maintaining the integrity of the process.

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Speaker 8: You don't want that to become a sideshow and the

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Speaker 8: jury doesn't miss that, you know, So the family members

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Speaker 8: that can't handle it, you've got to have them sit outside,

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Speaker 8: you know, because you don't want you don't want that

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Speaker 8: to be distracting. You want this jury to make the

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Speaker 8: call based on the evidence and the law, and above

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Speaker 8: all else, you want to make sure that you're you're

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Speaker 8: avoiding appellate issues at every step because the case is

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Speaker 8: so horrific and the only thing worse than going through

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Speaker 8: something like this as a family is having to go

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Speaker 8: through this whole process only to do it again because

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Speaker 8: the case gets reversed because it's some sort of error.

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Speaker 2: To just got Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State Universe and

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Speaker 2: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Star of

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Speaker 2: a hit new series, Body Bags with Joe Scott. Morgan,

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Speaker 2: Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. One of

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Speaker 2: the last times that you and I dealt with a

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Speaker 2: decapitation or near decapitation that actually.

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Speaker 1: Went to the jury was.

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Speaker 2: The case of course Nicole Brown Simpson murdered by former

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Speaker 2: husband football star Orenthal James Simpson. The degree of blood

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Speaker 2: from a near decapitation or decapitation is overwhelming what does

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Speaker 2: that mean.

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Speaker 1: That means it.

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Speaker 2: Will be very difficult to determine if the defendants of

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Speaker 2: blood is somewhere in there.

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Speaker 1: And of course, Joe Scott.

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Speaker 2: And one of his many, many, many confessions, Richard Allen

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Speaker 2: blurted out something to an inmate that nobody else knew

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Speaker 2: that he had perform the maurtters with a box cutter.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean to you forensically.

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Speaker 9: Well, in order to well, let's just think about the

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Speaker 9: dynamics of a box cutter, the dimensions of it. It's

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Speaker 9: a very shallow blade, it doesn't go very deep. So

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Speaker 9: what does that mean. Well, we've got people throwing around

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Speaker 9: terms like decapitation, Nancy, let me just say this plainly.

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Speaker 9: If we're talking about decapitation with a box cutter, this

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Speaker 9: would have taken a protracted period of time. This is

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Speaker 9: not like using a knife, a hunting knife for instance,

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Speaker 9: that has a long leading edge and now granted they're sharp,

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Speaker 9: but it would take a protracted period of time. And

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Speaker 9: you know, I'm more curious right now to hear what

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Speaker 9: the forensic pathologist will say, and that's that's going to

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Speaker 9: be a big tael here to give the dimensions of

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Speaker 9: this injury. But I can say this, it would have

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Speaker 9: been a very bloody affair. And the fact that this

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Speaker 9: individual would have gotten out of there and not have

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Speaker 9: been soiled by the blood that would not have transferred

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Speaker 9: over to their person is.

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Speaker 1: The odds.

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Speaker 2: Wait a minute, Hold on, Hold on, Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 2: you're right about everything you said, and I want to

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Speaker 2: follow up with you regarding the fact that the amount

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Speaker 2: of blood from the jugular vein, from any any artery

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Speaker 2: is going to be immense. And my point is before

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Speaker 2: we get into the actual forensics of that, what this family,

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Speaker 2: what these families are witnessing in court, and what that

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Speaker 2: does to them, it would take wild horses to drag

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Speaker 2: them out of the courtroom. So far they have stealed themselves.

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Speaker 2: Joining me now from the courthouse, Susan Hendrix, investigative reporter,

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Speaker 2: author of Down the Hill, My Descent.

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Speaker 1: Into the Double Murder in Delphi.

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Speaker 2: Susan, please explain who is Jake John's and what's his

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Speaker 2: testimony over the wake into the jury.

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Speaker 10: He is the gentleman, the volunteer who found the clothes

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Speaker 10: of Abby and Libby, and his testimony was during that

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Speaker 10: volunteer search. Again, the search was called off the night before,

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Speaker 10: but volunteers came and the next morning when they started

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Speaker 10: to search early and the bodies were discovered a little

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Speaker 10: bit after me. He found clothes Libby sneaker her top.

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Speaker 3: What we have learned through all.

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Speaker 10: Of the testimony and a hearing at the end of

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Speaker 10: July was because of death. And Nick McCleland mentioned that

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Speaker 10: in the opening statement that Libby had been completely lewed

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Speaker 10: blood all over her. Her next slash sadly Abby as well,

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Speaker 10: and Abby was in the clothing of Libby had put

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Speaker 10: that close her clothes on. Libby's clothes was ordered to

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Speaker 10: before she was brutally murdered.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy grace.

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Speaker 2: A.

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Speaker 4: Four other girls also saw the man on the bridge

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Speaker 4: that day and described him as kind of creepy.

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Speaker 1: Witness statement.

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Speaker 3: There is a lot of similarity in what the witnesses said,

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Speaker 3: and they seem to have seen.

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Speaker 4: A man and a woman says she later saw the

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Speaker 4: man in the bridge video. He was muddy and bloody.

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Speaker 2: She said, now you just heard the killer state guys

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Speaker 2: down the hill.

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Speaker 1: He had to have pulled a gun on the girls.

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Speaker 2: The girls then go down the hill and they actually

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Speaker 2: had the wherewithal to take the video of the man

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Speaker 2: approaching him. Something about him made the hair on the

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Speaker 2: back of their neck stand up, and they started videoing

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Speaker 2: him right there. The girls themselves did this, and they

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Speaker 2: caught his voice saying, down the hill. Cheryl McCollum, I'm

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Speaker 2: predicting it'll be a cold h double l before Richard

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Speaker 2: Allen utters one word in the courtroom, because they drinking

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Speaker 2: here just like you and I can and compare it

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Speaker 2: to down the hill, Down the hill, Down the hill,

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Speaker 2: that loop of down the hill that prosecutors made.

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Speaker 3: One hundred percent Nancy. The other thing about that video.

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Speaker 3: You show the man on the bridge dressed for freezing weather.

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Speaker 3: He is a layered in a like a sweatshirt and

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Speaker 3: then a jacket. Remember it was unseasonably warm. Even Abby

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Speaker 3: is in a tank top. So he is dressed not

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Speaker 3: for hiking. He is the layered. And I think again,

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Speaker 3: when you look at the way that he is dressed,

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Speaker 3: you look at the way that the person sounds on

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Speaker 3: that recording. That person is calm, That person is in control.

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Speaker 3: He is in charge. There's no way coworkers, friends, neighbors,

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Speaker 3: folks from high school, and his family don't recognowledged his

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Speaker 3: gait his pace of walkin and that boy, let me go.

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Speaker 2: Straight back out to Susan Hendricks joining us at the courthouse.

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Speaker 1: You told me about Jake.

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Speaker 2: John's the volunteer and all these volunteers were working through

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Speaker 2: the night with the family. Police law enforcement had called

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Speaker 2: off the search, but they the family and volunteers went

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Speaker 2: back with lights, went out on canoes in the night,

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Speaker 2: all the way through the night looking for the girls.

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Speaker 1: But Susan Hendricks, who is Patrick Brown.

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Speaker 10: Patrick Brown is the volunteer who discovered the body said

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Speaker 10: he said that he walked up, but at first he

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Speaker 10: wasn't quite sure of what he was seeing, and he

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Speaker 10: took up his glasses, kind of tearing up and said,

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Speaker 10: I thought they were manica.

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Speaker 1: Oh. Doctor Bethany Marshall joining me.

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Speaker 2: Renow psycho Analys joining us out of Beverly Hills, author

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Speaker 2: of deal Breaker, and you can see her on Peacock

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Speaker 2: or find her at Dodger Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethny, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: You know that has I've heard that response to from

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Speaker 2: many witnesses who discover bodies. For instance, Connor Peterson Baby

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Speaker 2: Connor Lacy Peterson's little baby who died when his mother

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Speaker 2: was murdered. His body after her uterus disintegrated underwater.

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Speaker 1: His body just kind of floated out.

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Speaker 2: It was completely pristine, like a little one of those

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Speaker 2: little plastic baby dolls. They're kind of shiny that you see,

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Speaker 2: the little naked baby dolls. And the witness that found

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Speaker 2: the body thought it was a mannequin, a baby doll.

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Speaker 2: Could that be or are you just so conditioned not

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Speaker 2: to expect to find a dead body that your mind

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Speaker 2: goes to a mannequin like this witness said that you're

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Speaker 2: he's hearing from Patrick Brown.

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Speaker 1: He was searching for the girls and he sees the girls.

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Speaker 2: One I'm completely naked, but he instead thanks, they're mannequins.

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Speaker 11: Nancy, our brains are not wired to see a scene

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Speaker 11: like this and to immediately comprehend what it is. Just

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Speaker 11: like being in an accident.

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Speaker 1: Let's say you're.

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Speaker 11: Walking across the street a car starts hurtling towards you.

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Speaker 11: Your first thought will be that car's not really hurtling

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Speaker 11: towards me. There's like a disavowal of the reality of

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Speaker 11: the situation. But sadly, Nancy, when I heard the term mannequins.

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Speaker 11: I thought about the sexually motivated nature of this crime

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Speaker 11: and how he used those girls like dolls. When he

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Speaker 11: says down the hill, down the hill, Down the hill,

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Speaker 11: I hear a menacing, power hungry, horrible little man whose

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Speaker 11: only way to have control and authority in life is

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Speaker 11: to take a thirteen and a fourteen year old And Nancy,

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Speaker 11: you know, these crimes are sexually motivated. So what I

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Speaker 11: wondered was did he slit their throats to subdue them

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Speaker 11: so he could antally and vagually rape them, or masturbate

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Speaker 11: on them, or do whatever he wanted with them, toy

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Speaker 11: with them, or did he torture and toy with them

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Speaker 11: and then slit their throats so that he couldn't id them.

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Speaker 11: The idea that Libby's clothing was found on Abby suggest

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Speaker 11: a prolonged period of playing with them and toying with them,

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Speaker 11: which breaks my heart that these two children had to

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Speaker 11: experience something like that.

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Speaker 2: Speaking of what they were wearing, the state did not

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Speaker 2: have to rely upon recollection. One of the last photos

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Speaker 2: of these two girls was, of course, remember they're thirteen

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Speaker 2: and fourteen, a snaptat photo.

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Speaker 7: Snapchat photos Libby took Onebruary thirteenth, twenty seventeen, show Abby

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Speaker 7: sitting in the backseat of Libby's sister Kelsey Seabird's car

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Speaker 7: en route to the trailhead earlier that afternoon. Abby wore

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Speaker 7: a grey zip up hoodie, blue jeans, and a messy bun.

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Speaker 7: Libby wore a tiight eyed shirt. The other photo Libby

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Speaker 7: took that day showed Abby stepping from one wooden railroad

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Speaker 7: tie to another on the high Bridge.

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Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 2: One witness states that was Jake Johns, one of the

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Speaker 2: first witnesses, not the first witness, but one of the

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Speaker 2: first witnesses, describes how he found the clothing. The clothing

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Speaker 2: we just heard about that was in the snapchat they

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Speaker 2: took of each other. You're familiar with snapchat. It is

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Speaker 2: the thing and it has to be done quickly. There's

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Speaker 2: no message to it.

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Speaker 1: It's just a photo. Instead of texting somebody.

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Speaker 2: You have a Snapchat group or people that you chat

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Speaker 2: back and forth with and all you do is you

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Speaker 2: send a picture. It's just a picture in that moment,

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Speaker 2: and that's what they did. Now, that's how we know

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Speaker 2: for sure what they were wearing. Cheryl mccoom we know

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Speaker 2: that Jake Johns described finding the shirt up in a tree.

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Speaker 3: Nancy, this is a trail. This is a clue as

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Speaker 3: to what went on after he forced them down the hill.

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Speaker 3: So when they are being disrobed and the clothing is

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Speaker 3: sound in a tree and a shoe was found in

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Speaker 3: the creek, this is leading you to the homicide scene.

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Speaker 3: So this to me pinpoints and paints a picture of

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Speaker 3: exactly what happened and the order that it happened. This

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Speaker 3: is what he's testifying to.

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Speaker 1: But why up in a tree, Cheryl?

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Speaker 3: He possibly could have been hiding it thinking he could

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Speaker 3: discard it where nobody would see it. Knows what's going

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Speaker 3: through his head. But Nancy, again, it's telling you this

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Speaker 3: happened at this exact location. The bodies are then found

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Speaker 3: at this exact location. So again it's like these breadcrumbs

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Speaker 3: to this horrible event, from the shoe to the shirt

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Speaker 3: to the bodies. You know what is happening and exactly

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Speaker 3: where it happened. That's what's important to me.

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Speaker 2: To you, Jesscott Morgan, that the shirt we've been talking

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Speaker 2: about was up in a tree?

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Speaker 1: Why was it in a tree? Look? Is it privative? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not proving anything with this, but I want to

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Speaker 1: know why was it in a tree? Was he taking

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Speaker 1: the clothes and just throwing them? What's your theory.

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Speaker 9: I'd like to know how high up in the tree

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Speaker 9: it is. You know, if you're talking about discarding something,

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Speaker 9: you know, accessibility, that sort of thing. And as Cheryl

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Speaker 9: pointed out just a second ago about the deer Creek,

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Speaker 9: I think it's called the shoe that was in there,

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Speaker 9: why not discard everything in that area? First off, you're

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Speaker 9: going to wash away any kind of well most forensic

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Speaker 9: evidence perhaps, and also if it's got to flow to

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Speaker 9: it's going to take it downstream from where the initial

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Speaker 9: event perhaps happened. So it's a curious finding. But again

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Speaker 9: I'd have to know physical relationship to the height of it.

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Speaker 9: Is it something that he was attempting to sequester. Here's

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Speaker 9: one other piece to this. I've often wondered, you know,

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Speaker 9: going back to you say, for instance, him working at

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Speaker 9: CBS and look at these photographs. This guy's got a

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Speaker 9: rich fantasy life. I'm wondering was he a trophy taker

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Speaker 9: as well? And seems like clothing he has something to

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Speaker 9: do with clothing, taking time to dress and undress, bodies,

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Speaker 9: this sort of thing. Why would you not retain that

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Speaker 9: for your own recollections, like a lot of these guys do.

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Speaker 9: It is certainly, I think it is rather probate.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories. With Nancy Grace, these two.

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Speaker 9: Precious souls who were taken, I'll say it plainly. We're

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Speaker 9: talking about perhaps to the point of a partial decapitation

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Speaker 9: here Nancy.

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Speaker 5: And they never thought they would hear that the girls

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Speaker 5: were murdered.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about Delphi, Indiana, a child murder. It's never happened.

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Speaker 2: A poignant detail that the family told me is that

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Speaker 2: morning before the girls left, the grandma was worried that

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Speaker 2: it might get to Chili. That was her concern. She

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Speaker 2: thought that I'll want to be gone an hour and

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Speaker 2: a half. And she kept telling the girls wear a coat,

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Speaker 2: put on a hoodie.

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Speaker 1: That was the fear. The trial is happening now today

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Speaker 1: in a court of law.

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Speaker 2: Straight back out to Susan Hendrick's investigative reporter joining us

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Speaker 2: at the courthouse. Susan, how does the defendant look?

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Speaker 10: He looked so much different Nancy than he did of

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Speaker 10: course in the in his jailhouse orange clothes. He was

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Speaker 10: in street clothes, khaki pants, a belt, kind of a

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Speaker 10: linen looking shirt, a light shirt with glasses reading glasses

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Speaker 10: on his head. He looked more healthy than he had

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Speaker 10: since I've seen him, and looked more just engaged, if

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Speaker 10: you will. And I saw that even during jury selection

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Speaker 10: where he was involved and his attorneys were leaning over

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Speaker 10: Richard Allen and he was pointing to kind of witchers.

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Speaker 10: It was a team kind of they worked as a

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Speaker 10: team with Richard Allen to decide who they should pick.

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Speaker 10: I noticed that, and absolutely he looked so much different

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Speaker 10: than he had even during the cur what I saw

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Speaker 10: at the end of my beginning of office. Of course,

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Speaker 10: the deputies very close arms and handcuffs. Deputies are even

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Speaker 10: in plain clothes behind him, so it's of course not

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Speaker 10: to prejudice. The jury is seeing mister Allen in a

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Speaker 10: jailhouse orange, but it is much different.

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Speaker 1: I think he looks better too.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Susan Hendricks, Okay, really reading glasses. I will never

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Speaker 2: forget with the Menendez brothers, how the female defense attorney

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Speaker 2: would like pick lint off them and hug them, smooth

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Speaker 2: down their sweaters. I'm like, okay, whatever, but we're seeing

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Speaker 2: the same thing happening now. Cheryl McCallum, the fawning of

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Speaker 2: a Richard Allen in front of the jury.

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Speaker 3: The jury's gonna know it's a stunt. They knew when

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Speaker 3: they saw him in that wheelchair, when he couldn't walk

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Speaker 3: and he was e MA siated was a stunt. They

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Speaker 3: know that. Saying that there was a hair found that

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Speaker 3: didn't match him before the trial started with a stunt

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Speaker 3: is surious, not stupid. They are going to understand exactly

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Speaker 3: what's going on. They are going to look at the

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Speaker 3: evidence and evidence only in render an appropriate verdict. I

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Speaker 3: believe that.

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Speaker 2: Well, we also see the stay is preparing the jury

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Speaker 2: for a lack of DNA. Susan Henwick's joining us at

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Speaker 2: the courthouse, what about it?

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Speaker 10: Susan Cleveland said, how many of you have seen CSI

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Speaker 10: and people raised their hand, and how many of you

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Speaker 10: think you need to have DNA evidence for a crime

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Speaker 10: to have taken place to find someone guilty? Who believes

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Speaker 10: that you need dannet vidence? So to me, it was

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Speaker 10: very clear they just don't have that. The bullet is

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Speaker 10: the key piece of evidence, they say, And of course

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Speaker 10: the confessions. Sixty plus confessions were mentioned of Richard Allen,

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Speaker 10: saying to the jurors and during opening statements that they

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Speaker 10: will hear.

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Speaker 11: Richard Allen in his own words tell what happened.

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Speaker 10: That day, not only why he did it, but how

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Speaker 10: we did it.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I can't wait to hear that. Susan Hendrix, Now

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Speaker 2: we already know. Let me go straight back to justicph

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Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, and then I'll

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Speaker 2: follow up with you. Cheryl McCollum. A box cutter. Now

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Speaker 2: this is interesting. Remember how we railed about law enforcement

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Speaker 2: not releasing what we thought were enough facts to get

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Speaker 2: more tips from the public.

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Speaker 1: Well, in a way, the facts that they did withhold

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Speaker 1: it was very very.

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Speaker 2: Wise because we apparently have Richard Allen talking about murders

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Speaker 2: were conducted with a box cutter, which was then disposed.

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Speaker 2: He also said in a dumpster, I think a CBS dumpster,

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Speaker 2: which would have been an area familiar to him because

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Speaker 2: he was a pharmacy tech. Right now, can you, as

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Speaker 2: a death investigator, determine if a box cutter was used

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Speaker 2: any way to do that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 9: And I think that it's going to be relying upon

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Speaker 9: our friends that work in the tool mark section, which

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Speaker 9: I know you're familiar with the crime labs, we might

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Speaker 9: hear evidence from them. It all depends on and forgive

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Speaker 9: me for being rather gruesome, if that instrument struck bone

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Speaker 9: in particular we're talking about, they keep using the term

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Speaker 9: near decapitation. Is that possible to make that connection? I

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Speaker 9: guess kind of peripherally it could be. You could say

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Speaker 9: that this could be consistent with a mark left by

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Speaker 9: a box cutter. It's got a thinner blade than say,

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Speaker 9: perhaps I don't know, like a kbar knife, for instance,

403
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Speaker 9: It's not as robust, So yeah, you could have an

404
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 9: indication of that. And also what you're going to be

405
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Speaker 9: looking at, And this is how these beautiful young girls

406
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Speaker 9: are going to test fout on their behalf in this trial.

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Speaker 9: We're going to hear about these injuries, and we're going

408
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Speaker 9: to hear about a presence or absence of ridges in

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Speaker 9: these wounds that they have sustained to their neck. And

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Speaker 9: they're going to paint a picture, Nancy that is going

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Speaker 9: to leave all this other stuff in the dust. Trust me,

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Speaker 9: whether it's odinism or thor or all this other nonsense

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Speaker 9: that they keep coming up with, We're going to hear

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Speaker 9: the real scientific facts and that box cutter is going

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Speaker 9: to be a big part.

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Speaker 2: Of this guys testimony pouring from the witness stand, the

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Speaker 2: jury working over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: But then here is the problem, the fly.

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Speaker 2: In the ointment, so to speak, for the state, A

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Speaker 2: mystery hair listen.

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Speaker 7: During opening statements, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin says some hair

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Speaker 7: evidence is not tied to the defendant, Richard Allen. During autopsy,

423
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Speaker 7: a hair is found in Abby Williams's hand. That hair

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Speaker 7: has a root and is able to be tested, and

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Speaker 7: the tests showed the hair belonged to a female, not

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Speaker 7: to Abby or Libby, but probably from a relative of Libby's.

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Speaker 7: Baldwin says there should be more tests to find out

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Speaker 7: whose hair it was.

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Speaker 2: Joining me, Cheryl McCollum, forensics expert who has been at

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Speaker 2: the courthouse and in Delphi throughout this investigation, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 2: when you first hear a mystery hair, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: could it be the killer's hair? And if it doesn't

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Speaker 2: match up to Richard Allen, that could equal reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 2: But the rest of that sentence is it belongs to

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Speaker 2: a female relative of the victims, which you would absolutely

436
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Speaker 2: expect to find on them through some sort of a transfer.

437
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Speaker 1: I don't know how. Maybe her hand touched her body.

438
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: Maybe on the ride over, she was sitting in the

439
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 2: car with her hands on the seat, and there was

440
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 2: a hair there and it stuck to her body or

441
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 2: her clothing. So now we know it's a female relative.

442
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: You know what this reminds me of. This reminds me

443
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: of the hair found in top Mom Casey Anthony's trunk,

444
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 2: the trunk from which the odor of a dead body emanated.

445
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,800
Speaker 2: Top Mom's own mother, Cindy Anthony, stated that in the.

446
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: Nine to one one call then the hair was.

447
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 2: Found in the trunk and it could have been one

448
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: of three people, Cindy Anthony, tot Mom, Casey Anthony, or

449
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 2: baby Killy Anthony. But Cindy and Top Mom had chemically

450
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 2: treated hair, dyed and or frosted. This hair was pristine,

451
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 2: which proves that the baby Kelly Anthony had been in

452
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 2: that trunk from which the odor of a dead body emanated.

453
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: So in my mind, in this case, that mystery hair

454
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: is much ado about nothing.

455
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: It's completely nothing.

456
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 1: Here's one of mine.

457
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 3: Thanks to Libby, we got a video. There's no woman

458
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,959
Speaker 3: on that bridge. There's no female voice on that tape,

459
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 3: and I'm going to tell you the biggest thing to

460
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: me that is going to come very soon are the

461
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 3: other forty three seconds on that video tape.

462
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 12: Prosecutor mclealand says there is more than just bullet evidence

463
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 12: that ties Richard Allen to the murders of Abby and Libby.

464
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 12: Richard Allen himself, in statements to correctional officers, inmates, law enforcement,

465
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 12: even his wife, Allan tells them things with details that

466
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 12: only the killer would know. Mcleland says, Richard Allen followed

467
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 12: Abby and Libby to the Monan high Bridge, and that

468
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 12: Allan is quote the man on the bridge joining us at.

469
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: The courthouse, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill,

470
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: My Descent into the Double Murder in Delphi, Susan Hendrix.

471
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: We have a surprise. What is it?

472
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 10: Nick McCleland, the prosecutor, said that Richard Allen was interrupted,

473
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 10: that he brought the girls and led them down that hill,

474
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 10: planned on having his way with them, as he said,

475
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 10: and was interrupted. And to me that stood out. We

476
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 10: had never heard that before, and I wonder what will

477
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 10: come in to play during the trial. Was Richard Allen

478
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 10: interrupted by some sort of vehicle driving by. We don't

479
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 10: know that as we will hear that during the trial.

480
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 2: Now, why with the prosecutor I'm wondering about it. Susan

481
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: Hendrix believe that Richard Allen was interrupted.

482
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: In the murders of these two girls. Cheryl McCollum, what

483
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 1: do you think?

484
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: I think there was possibly items at the scene that

485
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 3: were not used. I think that the lack of DNA,

486
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: possibly seminal fluid things of that nature would cause them

487
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: to believe this is clearly a suol crime that looks

488
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 3: as though it was not completed.

489
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 2: Now very curious because so far we haven't heard about

490
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: DNA linking linking him to the scene, and sperm would absolutely.

491
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: Be that link.

492
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: Matthew Matt Murphy ound a veteran trial attorney. Matt As

493
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: part of discovery, all scientific evidence must be handed over

494
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: to the defense X number, usually ten days, but in

495
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 2: this case it's been months prior to trial, and in

496
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 2: those scientific reports that is where we would learn if

497
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: DNA links back to Richard Allen in any way.

498
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: Isn't that true?

499
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 8: That's right, And it sounds based on the Fort Daire,

500
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 8: which is the jury selection, it sounds like they don't

501
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 8: have that, but it's important to remember Nancy. In this case,

502
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 8: he had a lot of time here. One of them,

503
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 8: of course, was found naked, the other one wearing the

504
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 8: opposite young young ladies clothes, so he had time to

505
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 8: do this, which means he also had time to clean up.

506
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 8: And one of the fascinating things I think about a

507
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 8: lot of the modern cases we're seeing this with gilgo Bees,

508
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 8: with rex Huerman, is that if they're given time there,

509
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 8: you know you can read of DNA, and he certainly

510
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 8: had time here, so there is a reasonable explanation. And plus, remember,

511
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 8: given what happened to them, we have a complete absence

512
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 8: of DNA, So the logical conclusion of the argument is, well,

513
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 8: nobody killed them then, right. So it's one of those

514
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 8: things that jury just has to think through. And as

515
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 8: long as it's I think, effectively argued, it's going to

516
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 8: be fine, or at.

517
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: Least it should be.

518
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 8: I believe the evidence against this man is overwhelming if

519
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 8: properly presented.

520
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: Well.

521
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: The defense is certainly making a foray, and they're arguing

522
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 2: about the timeline.

523
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: One thing that's going to be very difficult for them to.

524
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 2: Counter are the alleged confessions this guy blabbed behind bars listen.

525
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 7: After discovering over sixty recorded confessions by the accused killer

526
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 7: in jail phone calls to his wife and mother, mcleland

527
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 7: believes over a year ago, Alan began speaking about the

528
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 7: murders in very specific detail with a fellow inmate even

529
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 7: testifies that Alan revealed to him that he killed the

530
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 7: girls with a box cutter, which Alan later disposed of

531
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 7: in a CBS dumpster.

532
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: I mean, you'd think by now, doctor Bethany Marshall, that

533
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 2: lawyers would tell their clients don't reveal anything over the phone.

534
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: I've even had cases where recorders were set up in

535
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: the walls of a jail. Not my jurisdiction, But when

536
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: you're in jail, that doesn't matter. You do not have

537
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 2: any expectation of privacy. You don't need a search one

538
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: to put in a tapping device like I'm at a

539
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: grave or hanging outside someone's apartment on the fare on

540
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 2: the fire escape. You can put a tape recording device there,

541
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 2: just like you can in a jail. So why is

542
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: it when you know Richard Allen has been told shut the.

543
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: Hay up, keep your lips together.

544
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: Hey still talking, and all of those calls aren't recorded.

545
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 11: Bethany Well obviously lead the defense has lost control of

546
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 11: their client. But what it tells me a couple of things.

547
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 11: He's impulsive, he's profoundly immature. He wants to keep telling

548
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 11: the story because he's changing the narrative again and again

549
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 11: to try to justify why he did it.

550
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: But also he's reliving the.

551
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 11: Glory of the crime. I mean, if you think about

552
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 11: the fact that likely this is sexually motivated. He's in jail,

553
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 11: he has no access to sex partners. I mean, his

554
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 11: fantasy life is probably prolific, and this is probably how

555
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 11: he got attached to the girls in the first place,

556
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 11: looking at all those photos and that they're clothing and

557
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 11: sort of developing a fantasy relationship with them. And the

558
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 11: only way to continue that talk about the crime.

559
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 4: Speaking about reasonable doubt, defense attorney Andrew Baldwin says Richard

560
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 4: Allen is an innocent man ensnared in an investigation that

561
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 4: he says was messed up from the beginning. Challenging the

562
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 4: state's timeline, Baldwin says Abby's phone connected to a cell

563
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 4: phone tower after Alan had left the trail on February thirteen,

564
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, claiming after four pm, human hands handled that phone.

565
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 4: Richard Allen was at home and never came back.

566
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: Two you, Cheryl McCollum, who has been at the courthouse,

567
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: in the and in the area since the investigations started.

568
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 1: Cheryl, what is the defense?

569
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 2: Is it based on cell phone data placing Richard Allen

570
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: elsewhere at by two point fifteen.

571
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 3: That's what they're going to try to show, Nancy. But again,

572
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,919
Speaker 3: if you look at the totality, that's one aspect. You've

573
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: got confessions. You've got himself at the bridge. You've got

574
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,919
Speaker 3: the bullet, you've got the video, you've got the voice,

575
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: you've got the fact that, to me, you've got somebody

576
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: that parts away, his car was seen, he's dressed inappropriately

577
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 3: for the day. You've got a totality of what occurred here.

578
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: They are going to be able to paint a picture

579
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 3: that he had information only the killer would know. There

580
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 3: is no way with that video and that boy, it

581
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 3: is entire family, his entire friendship circle, every co worker,

582
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: nobody can identify him. I don't believe that that's what's coming.

583
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix joining us at the courthouse.

584
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 2: Susan, I understand that people are lining up in the

585
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: wee hours of the morning to get into the courthouse.

586
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: What's happening, Nancy.

587
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 10: The interest in this case is clear, as you see

588
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 10: with citizens lining up. People want to know being part

589
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 10: of course of Carroll County, and it's being held here

590
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 10: at Carroll County. You're selected outside of this county, and

591
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 10: really you could see the interest people want to know.

592
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the hearts are in this.

593
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 10: There's teal and purple ribbons all around downtown Delphi aligning

594
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 10: the streets here. If people want closure for this. The

595
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 10: girls are never coming back, of course, but they want

596
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 10: to be part of this because their hearts have been in.

597
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: It when they start Susan Hendrix at the courthouse, I'm

598
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: just thinking about the family who has been in court

599
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 2: all day long, listening to excruciating testimony, seeing horrific crime

600
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: scene photos of the girls nearly decapitated, and it reminds

601
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 2: me of what Becky Patty told.

602
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: Me when I spoke to her, how she could not even.

603
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: Ask when she was told she was out searching, when

604
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: she was told they found the girls, she would not

605
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 2: let herself ask are.

606
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: They dead or alive? Listen, did you ask any questions,

607
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: did you, oh, I jumped in a car, and did

608
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: you think they were alive? They wouldn't. Did you ask

609
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: them I I would tell him. I just told asked

610
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,359
Speaker 1: them to take me to them. I said they found him.

611
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: I wasn't even ask him if they were how they

612
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: found him. I just said, let me needs me, You

613
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 1: need to take me to her.

614
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 2: Now, unable to even ask are the girls dead or alive?

615
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: And this whole day they've been sitting through those horrific

616
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 2: crime scene photos and testimony. We wait and pray as

617
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 2: justice unfolds. Live at the court House, Nancy Grace signing

618
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 2: off goodbye friend,