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Speaker 1: Cool Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Last Friday,

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Speaker 3: I teamed up with Lance from the Canadian based politics

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Speaker 3: show The Serfs to talk about the tragic events of

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Speaker 3: last week in tumblr Ridge, British Columbia. On Tuesday, February tenth,

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Speaker 3: an eighteen year old named Jesse Van Rutzler killed her

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Speaker 3: mother and stepbrother in their home, then took two guns

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Speaker 3: and went to tumblr Ridge Secondary School, where she killed

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Speaker 3: five students, one teacher, and finally her self. Two other

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Speaker 3: kids were critically injured with gunshot wounds but have survived.

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Speaker 3: The shooter did attend tumblr Ridge Secondary School years ago,

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Speaker 3: but dropped out for the past three to five years.

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Speaker 3: It's kind of unclear. Jesse identified as a transgender girl.

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Speaker 3: Tumblr Ridge is a very small town with just twenty

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Speaker 3: four hundred residents in northeastern British Columbia. This was the

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Speaker 3: worst school shooting in Canada since nineteen eighty nine. The

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Speaker 3: sequence of events during this incident were very similar to

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Speaker 3: the Lelouche shooting in Canada ten years ago, where the

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Speaker 3: gunman killed two family members at home before going to

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Speaker 3: a school. During our conversation, Lance and I discussed the

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Speaker 3: spread of misinformation, how the online writers tried to weaponize

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Speaker 3: the deaths of these people for their own political agenda,

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Speaker 3: and how the shooter's online activity shows a growing fascination

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Speaker 3: with mass shootings this past year. Here's that conversation.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure everyone knows that right now in canada's a

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Speaker 4: nation in mourning. And I also did probably want to

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Speaker 4: start this out by reading the names of the deceased,

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Speaker 4: because it's one of the things that the families have

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Speaker 4: been asking for. So the victims from the tumbler Ridge

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Speaker 4: Secondary School shooting are Abil Wanza who was twelve, Ezekiel Schofield,

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Speaker 4: who was thirteen, Kylie Smith who was twelve, Soey Benoit

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Speaker 4: who was twelve, Takaria Lampert who was twelve, Shanda avey

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Speaker 4: Iguanda Duran who's thirty nine, Emmitt Jacobs who was eleven,

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Speaker 4: and Jennifer Jacobs who was thirty nine years old. So

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Speaker 4: I guess I'll start with Garrison. How have you been

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Speaker 4: processing and or tracking the story since it happened.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, pretty horrifying incident that happened last Tuesday. Very soon

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Speaker 3: after it happened, there was like right wing narratives trying

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Speaker 3: to use the deaths of these children and family members

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Speaker 3: for their own political agenda, and I started tracking that

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Speaker 3: pretty soon, and then also trying to verify as much

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Speaker 3: information about the actual circumstances of the shooting and who

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Speaker 3: the shooter was, you know, around that same time. Things

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Speaker 3: have gotten pretty clear now a few days later, but

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's been a nightmare to sort through all

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Speaker 3: this stuff, especially all of like the political opportunism being

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Speaker 3: done by a variety of right wing influencers and you know,

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Speaker 3: quote unquote news agencies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I was doing the same thing, like right after the

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Speaker 4: event happened. I noticed that there was a lot of

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Speaker 4: for people who don't know, right wing online operatives like

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Speaker 4: the plub Reporter and Tuno News and cat Canada and

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Speaker 4: these are all very popular right wing social media accounts

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Speaker 4: on Twitter in Canada or at least based in Canada

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Speaker 4: for their origins, but then they usually get retweeted, quote

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Speaker 4: tweeted and amplified eventually by the far right in the

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Speaker 4: which has a very corrosive effect. And I think but

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Speaker 4: like by the time we're talking about this right now,

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Speaker 4: I saw that like Donald Trump Junior, the son of

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Speaker 4: the presidents of the United States, is doing an entire

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Speaker 4: I assume, blowed out of his mind rumble special on

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Speaker 4: the shooting just uniquely going after trans people the entire time.

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Speaker 5: For a small little.

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Speaker 4: Town of what like just over twenty four hundred people,

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Speaker 4: it has to be beyond like a shell shock to

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Speaker 4: first have to go through something that's horrifying and then

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Speaker 4: deal with the international right wing apparatus.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and they're going through the motions right like, this

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Speaker 3: is not the first time, it won't be the last

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Speaker 3: time that they try to do something like this. It's

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Speaker 3: not getting as much traction I think as it used to.

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Speaker 3: There's a lot of other stuff happening in the States

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Speaker 3: around the time. Like news was breaking in the States

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Speaker 3: about the shooting that happened, it was Wednesday during Pam

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Speaker 3: Bondi's Epstein hearing. So there's been a lot of other

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Speaker 3: stuff happening, So I don't think they've gotten as much

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Speaker 3: like concentrated attention on this as some of the online

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Speaker 3: right has like wanted to, or you know, like the

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Speaker 3: Matt Walsh types, lips of tech talk that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: But they're definitely giving it a go. It's gross, right,

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Speaker 3: It's it's gross to use the deaths of all these people.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, not to mention the way the entire thing's

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Speaker 4: been framed is abhorrent. I mean, obviously, you know, we're

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Speaker 4: speaking from a perspective where we don't want to vilify

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Speaker 4: an entire group based on one like, you know, horrifying

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Speaker 4: monster's actions kind of thing, right, because that doesn't happen

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Speaker 4: in the other direction for cist people. And that's what

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Speaker 4: you gotta be quick to point out. But I feel

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Speaker 4: like the Matt Walshes and the libs of TikTok have

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Speaker 4: and it's a horrifying thing to say, but like they're

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Speaker 4: perfect narrative, right. It's it's kind of like a twisted

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Speaker 4: way something that're actually quite pleased about.

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Speaker 3: It almost seems like, yeah, they make a lot of

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Speaker 3: money off this.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: They've profit off of human suffering and they try to

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Speaker 3: spread as much of it as possible.

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Speaker 4: The first aspect I was trying to look at the

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Speaker 4: story from was what it was early, What are the

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Speaker 4: families themselves asking for? What does the you know, town

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Speaker 4: need long terms of support, that kind of stuff? Can

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Speaker 4: you move on from that? And then immediately it was well,

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Speaker 4: now there's just an overwhelming, very apparent right wing mechanism

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Speaker 4: gearing up, and it's going to be kind of devastating

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Speaker 4: for a country like Canada that doesn't really have maybe

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Speaker 4: or isn't as used to having the eyes of the

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Speaker 4: world from the transphobic, you know, turf side of the internet.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about Jennifer Strang,

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Speaker 3: the mother of the shooter. Despite being a self described

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Speaker 3: you know, conservative libertarian, Jesse's mother publicly supported her transition

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Speaker 3: made posts in supported trans people. In July twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 3: she shared a LGBTQ pride graphic reading good people don't

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Speaker 3: spend their time harassing marginalized communities and wrote quote as

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Speaker 3: a conservative leaning libertarian who lives in the North and

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Speaker 3: loves living in a small town. I really hope the

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Speaker 3: hate I see online is just bored old people and

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Speaker 3: not true hatred. Do better and educate yourself before spewing

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Speaker 3: bullshit online makes you look dumb evolve. I normally don't

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Speaker 3: say anything. I normally don't go on shit book to

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Speaker 3: see the keyboard warriors. And I know I can't control

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Speaker 3: or shield my kids from everything, but please, for the

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Speaker 3: love of fuck, can you get your shit together so

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Speaker 3: we don't have to bring our kids up in a

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Speaker 3: world full of hatred. Do you have any idea how

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Speaker 3: many kids are killing themselves over this kind of hate?

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Speaker 3: Please stop the bullshitunquote. So pretty soon after the shooting,

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Speaker 3: based on an early active shooter report describing the shooter

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Speaker 3: as a quote unquote female in address with brown hair,

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Speaker 3: online right wing accounts started trying to identify who this

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Speaker 3: possible shooter was by looking at trans people in the

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Speaker 3: area of Tumbler Ridge. They misidentified one person who is

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Speaker 3: a relative of this shooter, but put out photographs of

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Speaker 3: them claiming that she was the shooter. This person is

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Speaker 3: now having to like lock down all of their accounts

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Speaker 3: and is scared to go outside do the horrific wave

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Speaker 3: of harassment they're facing.

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Speaker 5: What is wild about that?

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Speaker 4: As the story is, I've seen accounts like the Blood

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Speaker 4: Reporter who popularized, you know, publishing that photo, but I

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Speaker 4: think Rachel Gilmore is the one who also pointed out

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Speaker 4: that there was the misuse of a photo in an

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Speaker 4: actual CBC Radio broadcast image thumbnail as well, which is

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Speaker 4: also kind of just shocking to hear because these are

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Speaker 4: again innocent people who might have targets now put on

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Speaker 4: their back because they're being directly identified as some kind

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Speaker 4: of a mass shooter or monster. And then in addition

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Speaker 4: to that, like now, I'm wondering how much of this

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Speaker 4: is going to be something that they're capable of containing,

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Speaker 4: especially considering that it's been still proliferated. Like I saw

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Speaker 4: an account called bricks News, which I assumed would be

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Speaker 4: about bricks, you know, the economic lines between a number

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Speaker 4: of different nations, and instead was publishing the false photo

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Speaker 4: of again a completely innocent person and sad like I

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Speaker 4: think at the time, seventeen thousand likes, you know, hundreds

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Speaker 4: of thousands of impressions. It's really dangerous.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I mean that's part of the intent here.

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Speaker 3: You know, places like kibiforms, Trailblazer a lot of this

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Speaker 3: quote unquote early research, and the point is to cast

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Speaker 3: as large of it as possible to damage as many

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Speaker 3: trans people as they can using horrific events like this.

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Speaker 3: The cruelty is part of part of the point, and

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Speaker 3: you know, blame gets laid at a you know, a

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Speaker 3: combination of trends enabled mental delusion SSR rise and hormones,

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Speaker 3: saying that those things are causing the shooting, well before

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Speaker 3: we have any evidence to determine what types of medications

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Speaker 3: someone could be on who they actually are, or any

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Speaker 3: possible motive. One kind of crude thing that I've seen

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Speaker 3: a lot is right wing accounts like you know, end wokeness,

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Speaker 3: allegedly Jack Posovic saying that you know, the shooter qute

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Speaker 3: unquote gunned down thirty five kids to make it seem like,

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Speaker 3: you know, massacre of such a such a large magnitude,

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Speaker 3: right The number of kids that have been killed and

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Speaker 3: other other people as well obviously is like horrific. Thirty

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Speaker 3: five people were not shot in this shooting, though there

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Speaker 3: was twenty five people with non gunshot related injuries as

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Speaker 3: a result of the incident, and that is the number

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Speaker 3: that that people are framing as being you know, total

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Speaker 3: number of people shaw, which just isn't true. And then

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Speaker 3: they also very quickly start sharing you know, unsourced graphs.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you've seen stuff like this, right, saying that

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Speaker 3: you know, trans girls make up the highest demographic of

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Speaker 3: mass shooters per capita. You see these things go all

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Speaker 3: over the place.

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Speaker 4: By the world's richest man. He's he's sharing that a

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Speaker 4: lot online right now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and this is this has been a

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Speaker 3: thing the past three years, right, this is something they've

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Speaker 3: been doing well before any any actual incident can be

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Speaker 3: even used to create data. They've they've created fake graphs

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Speaker 3: that show this. There's factors that get people to you know,

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Speaker 3: believe these sorts of things, right. There is certainly a

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Speaker 3: selection bias that determines which types of shootings gets like

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Speaker 3: a lot of media attention. And the other issue that

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Speaker 3: I've talked about a lot in previous shootings is there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of different definitions of a mass shooting, you know,

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Speaker 3: mass shooting versus a mass killing versus like a school shooting. Right,

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Speaker 3: all these are different terms. Even the term school shooting

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Speaker 3: can be used to refer to a variety of very

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Speaker 3: different incidents revolving around gun violence.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: There could be gang related violence at a school. There

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Speaker 3: could be shots fired as an escalation of a physical fight.

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Speaker 3: Students bringing guns to school and accidentally firing them, which

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Speaker 3: happens more often than what you would think, like as

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Speaker 3: someone who just brings the gun in their backpack, not

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Speaker 3: intending to do a shooting, but it accidentally fires it

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Speaker 3: into school. This happens multiple times a year. There's you

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Speaker 3: know shootings there dormitories, right, those get counted as mass

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Speaker 3: shootings at like you know, a college dormitory. It's interpersonal violence.

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Speaker 3: There's you know, neighborhood shooting set effect, but aren't targeting

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Speaker 3: the school like drive by shootings or even something like

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Speaker 3: the assassination of Charlie Kirk, which some people have categorized

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Speaker 3: as a school shooting because was on a college campus. Right.

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Speaker 3: But these are all very different types of violence, right.

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Speaker 3: These aren't like you know, intentional you know, mass shooting

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Speaker 3: violence where someone who's trying to shoot as many people

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Speaker 3: as possible and then usually kill themselves.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: That's that's it's a different thing than a lot of

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Speaker 3: these other other things that I mentioned, But they all

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Speaker 3: get lumped under this one label of school shooting, and

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Speaker 3: all these different you know, data collection criteria could produce

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Speaker 3: very different stats. And depending whether you're measuring your injuries

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Speaker 3: versus deaths, you know, specific weapons like knives versus guns,

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Speaker 3: and how many years are being sampled, or if there's

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Speaker 3: connections to other violent activity, there could be very very

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Speaker 3: different results in how you categorize, you know, mass killings

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Speaker 3: or mass shootings. The Mass Killing Database has six hundred

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Speaker 3: and thirty one incidents in the United States since two

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Speaker 3: thousand and six, of which about one to three gets

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Speaker 3: kind of unclear. One to three are done by people

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Speaker 3: who have been reported as transgender, which is an under

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Speaker 3: represented ample size. The Violence Project has one transgender mass

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Speaker 3: shooter in their database of about one hundred and ninety

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Speaker 3: five mass shootings, and according to the Gun Violence Archive,

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Speaker 3: which also measures gunshot injuries not just deaths, fewer than

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Speaker 3: one in one thousand mass shooters over the past decade

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Speaker 3: have been identified as transgender. According to a Gallop poll

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Speaker 3: for twenty twenty three, about two percent of gen Z

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Speaker 3: identify as transgender, and if you also count like non

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Speaker 3: binary people, it brings it up to four percent. But

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Speaker 3: you can have all those stats on hand, if that

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Speaker 3: doesn't really do very much. Once you're arguing about statistics

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Speaker 3: and like semantics of terms, when kids have died, you're

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Speaker 3: kind of already starting to lose the emotional battle, right,

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Speaker 3: Like I can say all of that, but like that's

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Speaker 3: not actually going to be helpful, right, Like fact checking

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Speaker 3: doesn't work to dissuade disinformation, And when you're dealing with

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Speaker 3: such an emotionally charge incident like kids being murdered, having

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Speaker 3: to read off a paragraph like that just doesn't really help.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: Parents just want to know why this is happening and

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Speaker 3: what can be un to stop it. And all they

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Speaker 3: know is that, you know, since twenty twenty three, there

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Speaker 3: has been a series of shootings done by young people

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Speaker 3: who either attempted to or did transition genders. Right, That's

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Speaker 3: what they know, and they want to know, you know,

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Speaker 3: why this is happening and how to stop it.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: One of the things that I've tried to push up against,

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Speaker 4: because you are getting a lot of Americans who are

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Speaker 4: pushing that narrative right now, is to point out, because

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Speaker 4: I've seen people saying, like this epidemic of trans mass

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Speaker 4: violence is a scorge and I think they're blending Canada

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Speaker 4: in the US into one nation because I was like,

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Speaker 4: just to be clear, this is the first mass shooting

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Speaker 4: committed by a transperson in Canadian history ever.

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Speaker 3: And there's a lot of trans people in British Columbia.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well across the country. I mean it's one of

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Speaker 4: those things for him like this, this is not an

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Speaker 4: epidemic of which like, oh my god, you have a

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Speaker 4: high probability of being hurt by a transperson in your life.

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Speaker 4: It couldn't be further from the truth, right, Like the

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Speaker 4: stats are still overwhelmingly in the other direction. You're more

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Speaker 4: likely to be the victim of physical or sexual violence

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Speaker 4: if you're transperson then if you're this person.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that is another problem here is Yeah, a

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Speaker 3: lot of these you know, data collection tools aren't counting

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Speaker 3: balancing Canada. These are all stuff based into states. But

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Speaker 3: for you know, the culture war, it's not that hard

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Speaker 3: to you know, move that border up five hundred miles

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Speaker 3: to include things that are happening in Canada in a

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Speaker 3: rhetorical sense, for you know, your Matt Walsh's wokenesses, even

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Speaker 3: you know your Fox News anchors, right, yeah, this thing

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Speaker 3: that people are talking about on the right about this,

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Speaker 3: you know, epidemic of trans violence. What this is also

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Speaker 3: done is created like a counter reaction from trans influencers

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Speaker 3: to whenever something horrible happens like this, to blame these

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Speaker 3: other groups like you know nine A or seven six four. Right,

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Speaker 3: this has become something that's also now been very consistent.

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Speaker 3: You know, there is a kernel of truth in this.

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Speaker 3: This is based on a real thing that has happened before,

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Speaker 3: but the invocation of this has often you know, expanded

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Speaker 3: greatly beyond it's actual Like, can you explain.

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Speaker 4: It for people who are completely unfamiliar because I remember,

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Speaker 4: like even the year ago, I had just started reading

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Speaker 4: up I like, what is what is all this satanic

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Speaker 4: cult rituals with participation requirements of self harm and all

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Speaker 4: this stuff.

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Speaker 3: Like Okay, yeah, you see a lot of people now

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Speaker 3: when there's new coverage, you know, a lot of trans

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Speaker 3: people who have you know, accounts online, you know, talking

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Speaker 3: about how quote unquote satanic nazi pedophiles have groomed another

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Speaker 3: vulnerable queer kid into doing a mass shooting. There's a

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Speaker 3: viral tweet on semi viral tweet on Twitter right now

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Speaker 3: that reads, quote fuck anyone talking about trends and not

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Speaker 3: to Adam Waffin, this includes the cops and the media

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Speaker 3: like the CBC and BBC unquote. So yeah, what are

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Speaker 3: they talking about here? You know, Adam Waffin Satanic Nazi

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Speaker 3: pedophile cults. I said, you know nine A seven six

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Speaker 3: four right, these are originally you know, Ninea is this

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Speaker 3: older group, but as as contemporary Internet lore, it is

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Speaker 3: seen as this neo Nazi occultic organization that grooms people

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Speaker 3: into sexual exploitation or into doing violence like mass shootings.

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Speaker 3: Seven six four is a extortion ring that operated mainly

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Speaker 3: on Telegram and Discord, which tried to get kids to

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Speaker 3: do self harm produce.

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Speaker 5: Black mail room. Since is that true?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're active across a lot of places, but like

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Speaker 3: the organizing hubs were on Discord and Telegram and they

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Speaker 3: you know, attempted to get childs a tripbuse material out

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Speaker 3: of these kids and then use that to blackmail them

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Speaker 3: to get even more material than also encouraging self harm

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Speaker 3: and acts of violence. These have been real groups historically.

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Speaker 3: They are getting cracked down upon pretty heavily, at least

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Speaker 3: in seven six four's case. Oh nine is not really

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Speaker 3: a real group anymore. Arguably, but it exists as like lore,

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Speaker 3: and there has been no instances of A seven six

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Speaker 3: four affiliated people doing public acts of violence. So in

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Speaker 3: this case there's been people who have you know, trans

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Speaker 3: people online or you know allies who have have said

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Speaker 3: that this shooting is another one of these instances where

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Speaker 3: these online groups of you know, Nazis and pedophiles have

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Speaker 3: you know, groomed someone into doing violence, and they have

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Speaker 3: produced some evidence for this. There was a Twitter account

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Speaker 3: that allegedly belonged to the shooter that had a profile

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Speaker 3: picture of a son and rat on top of a transflag,

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Speaker 3: as well as the face of the christ Church shooter.

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Speaker 3: This account had posts glorifying white supremacist mass killers and

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Speaker 3: promoting the idea of creating a white homeland in the

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Speaker 3: Pacific Northwest. This was a Canada based account, but in

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Speaker 3: reality this was actually just another Nazis account who changed

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Speaker 3: their user name to match that of the Tumblr Ridge shooter.

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Speaker 3: And this was an attempt to troll people and just

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Speaker 3: spread disinformation, and this even fooled the ADL, whose research

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Speaker 3: standards have dropped dramatically the past three years. But a

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Speaker 3: few days ago, the ADL put out an article where

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Speaker 3: They credited posts made by this Twitter account to the

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Speaker 3: tumblr ridg shooter and claimed that a quote unquote preliminary

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Speaker 3: investigation showed that the shooter had showed interest in white supremacy.

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Speaker 3: But this was not their real account. This was just

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Speaker 3: someone who also is a fan of mass shootings like

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Speaker 3: the shooter was, as we'll soon discuss, But this was

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Speaker 3: someone who was just trying to troll other other you know,

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Speaker 3: researchers on Twitter and see how far their disinformation can spread.

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Speaker 3: This is the consequence of an organization like the ADEL

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Speaker 3: doing preliminary research based on Kiwi of arms posts and

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Speaker 3: not actually verifying the information.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the fact that I think they're actively pursuing

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Speaker 4: Hassan Piker more than Elon Musk is pretty much all

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Speaker 4: I need to know in terms of where where they're prioritizing,

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Speaker 4: you know, the search for racism.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I can.

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Speaker 3: Get into the actual like online footprint of the shooter,

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Speaker 3: which we we do have a decent idea of actually.

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Speaker 4: Before you get to that, because I think that's what

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Speaker 4: everyone is kind of interested in. I just want to

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Speaker 4: wrap up that last part, so just to be clear,

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Speaker 4: when you were mentioning those groups, you know, seven six four,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. There is no actual history of the shooter

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Speaker 4: having been into the Nazi the occults that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 3: Based on their presence, they have not been active in

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Speaker 3: like specific seven six four communities or have showed interest

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Speaker 3: in like you know, white prea to see neo Nazism

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Speaker 3: or you know, the the occult pedophile Nazism of O.

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Speaker 3: Nine A. This is not observable in the online for

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Speaker 3: print that they have left, which is which is not

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Speaker 3: to say the online foot print they have left is

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Speaker 3: you know, normal and good. If anything, it does point towards,

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Speaker 3: you know, significant factors that are causing kids to do

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Speaker 3: shootings like this, and we can trace it to a

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Speaker 3: number of shootings that have happened. But the O nine

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Speaker 3: A seven six four thing is more so like a

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Speaker 3: meme at this point that people similarly deploy the same

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Speaker 3: way that you know, the right deploys, you know, this

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Speaker 3: epidemic of trans violence. This has to become like a

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Speaker 3: counter meme to say that every time a trans person

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Speaker 3: does something bad, it's actually the fault of nine A

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Speaker 3: seven six.

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Speaker 4: Four, right, because there has been incidences in the past

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Speaker 4: that can point.

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Speaker 3: Towards that, Yeah, there could be there could be suggestions

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Speaker 3: in the past, and and certainly when seven six four

404
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Speaker 3: was more active years ago. I mean a lot of

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Speaker 3: the kids they were grooming for child sexual abuse material

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Speaker 3: were all a lot of queer kits because those kids

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Speaker 3: are uniquely vulnerable and are looking for community. But I

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Speaker 3: mean that is the majority of kids affected by seven

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Speaker 3: six four are people who have been groomed into self

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Speaker 3: harm or producing a child techtropies material to circulate among

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Speaker 3: like the organizers of these of these groups.

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Speaker 4: So it turns out that there isn't really a connection

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Speaker 4: in those two directions. You're correct in putting out there.

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Speaker 4: There's a counter push like I did the same thing

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Speaker 4: with Charlie Kirk, right like I remember when the first

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Speaker 4: image of the Charlie Kirk shooter being in a crouper

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Speaker 4: hitba the frog style jumper. I was like, oh, this

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Speaker 4: has to be a grouper, right like this immediately where

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Speaker 4: my brain went because they do have a history of

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Speaker 4: targeting that community. So you know, you can understand why

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Speaker 4: there's a pushback.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think people feel like they understand ideological

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Speaker 3: violence easier, like like violence caused by political ideology, and

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Speaker 3: are uncomfortable with the increasing amount of horrific public violence

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Speaker 3: that is seemingly linked to no political ideology. It's much

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Speaker 3: more like like nihilistic and scattershot, and that's like a

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Speaker 3: comfortable it's harder to understand like the causal forces producing

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Speaker 3: that rather than just saying, you know, oh, it's another Nazi, right,

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Speaker 3: that's easy and at this point sadly easy thing for

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Speaker 3: people to understand because of you know, a very high

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Speaker 3: number of neo Nazi mass shootings that happened in the

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Speaker 3: past ten years. But it is not twenty seventeen anymore,

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Speaker 3: and the circumstances that are inducing shootings like this have

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Speaker 3: have changed.

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Speaker 4: Can you talk about that, because, like you said, it's

436
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Speaker 4: a conversation that people don't want to have. Is it

437
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,880
Speaker 4: because we are uncomfortable with the conversation itself or because

438
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,640
Speaker 4: there's not enough information available yet to truly understand what

439
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 4: is leading these super online shooters slash nihilistic you know,

440
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 4: deep in the memes style stuff.

441
00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think a mix of both. It is both

442
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 3: an emerging phenomenon so that people have to observe it

443
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 3: for a certain amount of time to see the pattern,

444
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 3: and then also it's it's uncomfortable and it sucks. It

445
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 3: sucks to be in these places and like and like,

446
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 3: look at all this stuff, right Like I've been the

447
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,400
Speaker 3: past few days, have been looking at you know, these

448
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 3: horrible forum posts and reading about all kinds of like

449
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 3: you know, bad stuff, and it sucks and no one

450
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 3: wants to do that. So I think it's a mix

451
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 3: of factors. But uh yeah, I do want to talk

452
00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 3: about that. That's the kind of the I've kind of

453
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 3: like two sections that get into that, the first one

454
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,480
Speaker 3: based on her actual online footprint, the second one on

455
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 3: more like you know, basic societal forces. I think is

456
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 3: getting people to go so far to the social like

457
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 3: margins that pushes them to places like where the shooter

458
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 3: hung out online. So in twenty twenty one, Jesse's mom

459
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,959
Speaker 3: shared a link to her kids YouTube channel where quote

460
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 3: he posts about hunting, self reliance, guns and stuff he

461
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,399
Speaker 3: likes to do on quote. This YouTube account shared the

462
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 3: user name as Jesse's Reddit account. The earliest posts from

463
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen were about like roadblocks gaming. Then in twenty

464
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 3: twenty one, Jesse started posting about firearms and shared a

465
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 3: photo of her Chinese sks, which is kind of like

466
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 3: an a case forty seven style gun, which she used

467
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 3: for hunting. Around twenty twenty three, she started posting about

468
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 3: quote unquote, starting MTF transitions soon and as well as

469
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,439
Speaker 3: her phobia of needles. The police say that she started

470
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 3: transitioning before this, but the early syndication we have from

471
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 3: her online activity plus this around twenty twenty three. On

472
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,959
Speaker 3: other posts on our slash Trends, she asked for advice

473
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 3: on girl's clothing, what to expect from HRT, and talked

474
00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 3: about body dysmorphia. Her very last gender related post on

475
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 3: Reddit still refers to herself as pre HRT. Jesse made

476
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 3: a single post on our slash trans Guns in October

477
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, sharing a video of her firing a

478
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 3: Desert eagle handgun at a shooting range. At this point,

479
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,959
Speaker 3: around like the end of twenty twenty three, almost all

480
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 3: of her posts switch to being about psychedelic drug abuse,

481
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 3: asking how to vape or smoke weed without leaving a

482
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 3: smell in the house, being scammed by an online psychedelic

483
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 3: seller in Canada, and and asking if you can get

484
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: high off drinking the urine from a drug addict, and

485
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 3: asked on Reddit if it's safe to do five neo

486
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 3: DMT alone after she returned from the quote unquote psych ward.

487
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: She was admitted to a psychiatric facility after attempting to

488
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 3: burn down her home with account of aerosol while on

489
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: three grams of mushrooms. Jesse also said that she was

490
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: diagnosed with ADHD, autism, major depressive disorder, and OCD, and

491
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,239
Speaker 3: it was prescribed a mix of different SSRIs, as well

492
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 3: as an antipsychotic for sleep. In one comment on one

493
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 3: of her multiple Reddit posts asking about trying five MEODMT

494
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 3: after being arrested for arsen she wrote, quote, it is

495
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: a wonder I'm still alive yet I am speaks volumes,

496
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 3: But how much I've been trying to keep breathing when

497
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 3: all my effort goes towards keeping alive unquote. Her Reddit

498
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 3: activity drops off in April of twenty twenty four. This

499
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 3: could mean that she just stop using Reddit around then,

500
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: or that she has deleted a whole bunch of posts.

501
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,879
Speaker 3: She did scrub some of her online activity prior to

502
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 3: the shooting.

503
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 5: Now.

504
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,680
Speaker 3: In the aftermath of the shooting, the police have said

505
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 3: that they made multiple mental health related visits to the

506
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:11,439
Speaker 3: shooter's home the past few years and had previously confiscated

507
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 3: guns from the home, but the owner of the guns

508
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 3: it's unclear who exactly successfully petitioned for their return, and

509
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 3: Jesse did have a miner's firearms license, but that expired

510
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty four. It's unclear if the guns that

511
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: were confiscated with the same ones used in the shooting.

512
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 3: Jesse has posted a number of different photos of guns,

513
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 3: and we still don't know which exact ones were used.

514
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:35,639
Speaker 3: We just know that there was a long gun and

515
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 3: a handgun recovered. So though the shooters like Reddit activity

516
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 3: ceases in early twenty twenty four, her online presence moved

517
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,720
Speaker 3: to darker corners of the Internet, which demonstrate a declining

518
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 3: mental well being and a growing fascination with mass shootings.

519
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 3: The past year, Jesse was active on an Internet form

520
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 3: called Watch People Die, which is pretty much what it

521
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,360
Speaker 3: sounds like. It's the website to host footage of real

522
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 3: life gore.

523
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was like, is that what it sounds like?

524
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 5: It is?

525
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 3: Okay, right, you know, like snuff like real gore is

526
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 3: hosted there and shared, as well as a lot of

527
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 3: you know, like edits of mass shooter footage of people

528
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 3: filming themselves doing mass shootings that then circulates This forum

529
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: is is way more of like a social orbit around

530
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: this recent wave of mass shootings than seven six four is.

531
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: And you know, there is there is some crossover, you know,

532
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 3: there is some seven six for people who are also

533
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: you know, active on this form, people who used to

534
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: be seven and six four, because that group is also

535
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 3: you know, not really what it used to be, but

536
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 3: this form is its own thing rather than being linked

537
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 3: to you know, explicit Nazi groups, you know, the occultic

538
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 3: O nine A or the child's exploitation rings like seven

539
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 3: six four. That the shooter is verifiable online footprint suggests

540
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 3: much more of a nexus of involvement with what I've

541
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 3: been calling the school shooter fandom. They call it tease

542
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: or the true crime community. And in the past two

543
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 3: years we've seen an increase in shootings based on this,

544
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 3: like Neo columnbiner variety Right people doing copied cats of

545
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 3: other school shootings. The Abundant Life Christian school shooting in

546
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 3: December twenty twenty four by Columbine caused player Natalie simitha Upnow,

547
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 3: who the Right falsely labeled as trans. There was also

548
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 3: the Catholic school shooting in August twenty twenty five by

549
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 3: Robin Westman, who did at one point attempt gender transition

550
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 3: but later regretted it and originally planned to attack an

551
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 3: LGBTQ music venue. Westman was similarly obsessed with mass killers

552
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 3: and wrote the name of Repnow on one of their rifles.

553
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 3: Last April, a twenty two year old man in Florida

554
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: was arrested for threatening to commit a mass shooting on Discord.

555
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: The FBI believes that he was in communication with Samantha

556
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: Repnow prior to her shooting, and they both discussed with

557
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 3: each other plans for their mass killing attacks. In September

558
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, a sixteen year old named Desmond Holly

559
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 3: two kids before killing himself at Evergreen High School in Colorado.

560
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 3: He also idolized Samantha Rupdown, replicated her selfies, and was

561
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: active on the same forum Watch People Die that rep

562
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: Noow herself was active on, so Jesse was on this form,

563
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: but Jesse also displayed other traits similar of the TCC group.

564
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: Jesse created a mass shooting simulator game on Rodblocks, which

565
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 3: was set in a mall where you act out a

566
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 3: shooting and killing people in the mall. I'll talk a

567
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 3: little bit about this this forum specifically now right like,

568
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 3: this forum essentially exists to desensitize people to extremely violent

569
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: content that glorifies mass killings. Jesse's very first comment on

570
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 3: Watch People Die was on a compilation video of mass

571
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 3: shooter footage, and she wrote quote, I appreciate this post.

572
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 3: She also commented on another thread of mass shooting footage quote,

573
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: I love these first person perspective type videos. When a

574
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: shooter records his or her own actions, it's always the

575
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 3: most worrying. Comment is something that you know, if police

576
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: were aware of, should have should have been cause to

577
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 3: prevent this from happening. Came about five months ago. In

578
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 3: a thread on Watch People Die about the psychology of

579
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 3: watching Gore, she wrote quote, I find it addictive. It's

580
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 3: hard not to watch violent content. I'm just drawn to it.

581
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 3: I don't think much of it, though to say it

582
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 3: doesn't affect me is likely naive. I'm sure maybe subconsciously

583
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 3: it does. It just doesn't feel like a big deal.

584
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 3: I'm drawn to substances too. It's easy to get high

585
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 3: and just to zone out into videos of this stuff.

586
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: Does it impact my mental health? Eh? Mine's probably already fucked.

587
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 3: I tried to stay away from watching this type of

588
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 3: thing before because it really sucks me in and it's

589
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 3: a massive useless time dump, but I never really saw

590
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 3: any benefit. I think the r words in the comment

591
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: section are more father some mentally than the videos, so

592
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 3: I try just not interact with dorks x D. And

593
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 3: these sorts of these types of sentiments are not, like

594
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 3: uncommon among people who regularly engage with this type of content.

595
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 5: I think it's an inevidual thing to ask you.

596
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: But at this point, it almost seems as if like

597
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 4: the two biggest things that are often blamed for mass

598
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 4: shooting that I have to push up against and I

599
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 4: have been due to my whole life drugs and in

600
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 4: the other case, hyper online radicalization. Right, the history that

601
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: you're painting here kind of seems like someone who needed

602
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 4: a variety of health.

603
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 3: I'll reiterate that in like a sec Okay, yeah, I mean,

604
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 3: as I was reading this, this reminded me a little bit.

605
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 3: There was a shooting a few years ago at a

606
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 3: Fourth of July parade, the Highland Park mass shooting. The

607
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: sort of like writing that Jesse did in his post.

608
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 3: It reminds me of a bit of the writing done

609
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: by this this this other mass shooter to talk about

610
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 3: like getting like sucked into like like violent content or

611
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 3: this like this idea of like it like beckons you

612
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: further into the concept. It's like almost like hypnotic. Very

613
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: similar writing done by this other other shooter. So one

614
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 3: other post I'll reference that she made on this forum

615
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: was a video of a father hanging himself in front

616
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: of his children, and she claimed that her stepdad attempted

617
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: the same thing, trying to kill himself in front of

618
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 3: her when you know, she was just a little kid,

619
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 3: and she wrote, quote, I wish his bitch ass would

620
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: have died on the noose then, and there probably better

621
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: than beating your kids unquote. So obviously, you know this

622
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 3: person had like long standing issues that at certain points

623
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 3: seems like better, right, Like around twenty twenty one, they

624
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: seemed to be doing better, right they were they were

625
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 3: making you know, YouTube content at about guns and hunting,

626
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 3: and felt like they had some more of like a

627
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: had more of a stable social outlet. And then around

628
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three, with you know this this like abuse

629
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 3: of psychedelic drugs leading to this mass shooter obsession it's

630
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: like a pretty a pretty clear picture of like a

631
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 3: mental spiral. Two months before Jesse's own shooting, she did

632
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 3: visit the Watch People Die profile for Samantha Ruppnow, and

633
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 3: if we're going to talk about like a causal factors, right,

634
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 3: and especially like in reference to you know this this

635
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 3: this idea that you know, parents have where you know

636
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 3: there there has been a sequence of trans people doing shootings.

637
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: You can argue about you know, the per capita percent

638
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: rates or like stats again, but that doesn't go so far.

639
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 3: But at a certain point, I mean, we have to

640
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: all be comfortable or maybe comfortable is the wrong word,

641
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 3: but we have to like, you know, realize that like,

642
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 3: as more people, you know, transition right genders, is not

643
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 3: this like immutable thing. As more people attempt transitioning, there's

644
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 3: gonna be some trans people who do bad things. This

645
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 3: happens with every social.

646
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 7: Group of people.

647
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 3: To borrow from sociologist Mark Worrel, who wrote about the

648
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 3: social phenomenon of mass shootings, like destruction of others is

649
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 3: the means towards another end, the desire for self destruction

650
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 3: that the self was incapable of inflicting in isolation. A

651
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: lot of the mass shootings and with suicide or trying

652
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 3: to get the police to kill you through through suicide,

653
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 3: like like the public shootings like this have a very

654
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,399
Speaker 3: strong suicidal component, and some people might not be able

655
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: to do that themselves, so they need to create a

656
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 3: social context in which they feel like they can. And

657
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: at least in terms of the States and to a

658
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 3: smaller degree in Canada, like these shootings like exist as

659
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 3: like this like cultural ritual, this like ritual of destruction

660
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 3: of the self, and destruction of the self can include

661
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 3: the social apparatus that makes up the self. And for

662
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 3: like a young person, that's what that's that's their family

663
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 3: in school, the two things that were targeted in this shooting. Right,

664
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: this this network that makes up like my sense of

665
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 3: self as a seventeen year old, eighteen year old, that's

666
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 3: going to be my family, which is you know, uh

667
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: for Jesse, that's that's her mom. She's been separated from

668
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: her father for a while as well as her stepbrother.

669
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 3: And then also this school that she used to used

670
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 3: to go to. Right, that's the sort of that's the

671
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: network that makes up your idea of this social and

672
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 3: like I said before, like as the trans community, grows,

673
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 3: there's gonna be some overlap between antisocial you know, mentally

674
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 3: unwell individuals who act out a mass killing as a suicide,

675
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 3: and disintegrated and socially underregulated people who try transitioning as

676
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 3: a way to ease tensions, both internally and externally. And

677
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 3: if anything, I think transitioning can often be maybe one

678
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 3: of the healthiest ways to attempt to relieve some of

679
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: these tensions. But like being trans is like a marginal

680
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 3: position in society, right, and the people who commit school

681
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 3: shootings and suicide through mass shootings are at like the

682
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 3: very very extreme end of social dysregulation and like marginal isolation,

683
00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 3: and some people in those latter categories will also try

684
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: transitioning as a method of social regulation. And in Jesse's case,

685
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 3: like considering all their posts about like mental health and drugs,

686
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 3: never once is being trans cited as like a point

687
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:13,399
Speaker 3: of their distress, Like that's the thing that's causing them

688
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 3: the distress. It is it is a method of relief,

689
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: at least according to like their own writing on Reddit,

690
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 3: like this the cause of the distress or all these

691
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 3: are these other things, and like people can blame mass

692
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 3: shootings or mass killings on like any number of specific factors, right,

693
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 3: such as access to weapons, whether that's knives, firearms, bullying,

694
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 3: substance abuse, mental health and lacking mental health services and

695
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: like mental health oversight. But like the common base factor

696
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 3: across you know, most of those things is that there's

697
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 3: like social disintegration and deregulation happening. That that's like a

698
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 3: failure to balance like egoism and altruism, right, like a

699
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 3: healthy individual sense of self as well as a place

700
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 3: of belonging within a larger social group, and like we

701
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 3: need a mix of freedom and available structured paths for

702
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 3: social life. Ritualistic outbursts of suicidal violence against society happen

703
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 3: when these things are extremely unregulated and someone falls out

704
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 3: of the social fabric. And like marginal classes like trans

705
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 3: people can be particularly affected by social disintegration and deregulation.

706
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 3: And like it's important to note here, like this isn't

707
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 3: caused by some like vague medical condition like gender dysphoria,

708
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,720
Speaker 3: Like that that's not causing the violence, right, prescribed estrogen,

709
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 3: it's not a causal forcedness. We don't even know if

710
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 3: Robin Westman or or Jesse was even on estrogen. We

711
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: don't know, but these things aren't aren't causal, but you know,

712
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 3: these are social positions that include you know, these larger

713
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 3: social factors that affect large populations. One of those populations

714
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 3: can be trans people. There's a lot of social disintegration

715
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 3: that affects the cists men currently, they do a lot

716
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 3: of shootings and yeah, the overwhelming majority. You can also

717
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 3: graph these things on class lines. Lots of people who

718
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 3: go and do public shootings either themselves or their families

719
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: are suffering from economic instability or or people in like

720
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,399
Speaker 3: the middle class as well, which it has this this

721
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: this other problem in like Durkheim's med methodology of suicide,

722
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 3: which I'm kind of pulling from a little bit here,

723
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: is like this thiss, this sense of like overregulation can

724
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 3: also produce in unhealthy balance. So it's either you know,

725
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 3: very overregulated people you know, like like Elon Musk has

726
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 3: too much freedom, has too much too much like access

727
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 3: to like money and possibilities, that he's then a very

728
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 3: dysfunctional person. This can happen you know with some probably

729
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 3: like you know, like middle class kids as well. Uh,

730
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 3: that can produce violent outbursts. But a lot of the

731
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 3: time it's you know, lower middle class or lower class

732
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 3: conditions that can lead to violence, and sometimes sometimes it

733
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 3: does not go to the extreme of doing you know,

734
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 3: a mass killing. It can often just result in like

735
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: petty crime, which is do you arguably a more healthy

736
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 3: method of regulation compared to something like a mass shooting,

737
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 3: which is like, you know, the most desperate, the most marginal,

738
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 3: like active suicide that we could like envision as a society.

739
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 4: I just wanted to specifically say when it came to factors,

740
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 4: you're distinctly not saying that video games where we're in

741
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 4: any way responsible, and then I know you're not, But

742
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 4: I just like people should know that when you mentioned Roadblocks,

743
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 4: people like I had I think my mom and someone

744
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 4: else asked like, oh, well, what's the storyline for Roadblocks?

745
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 4: And I was like, it's like asking what's the story

746
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 4: for Minecraft? Right, I was like, yeah, I was like,

747
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 4: these these are world building. It's it's it's similar to

748
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 4: seeing someone basically trying journal out their thoughts, right. I

749
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 4: think in that she was building these these mass shooting simulators,

750
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 4: that wasn't her being influenced I say, by some kind

751
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 4: of like template that Roadblocks had. That was her showing yeah,

752
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 4: creating something to express something else.

753
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and that sort of like like cause player

754
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 3: replication very common among this you know growing community of

755
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 3: did the true crime community that the school shooter fandom,

756
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 3: which which attracts a lot of people in marginal populations, right,

757
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 3: Like the fact that Samantha Rupp now is like one

758
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 3: of the first like you know, assists female school shooters,

759
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 3: like is notable here and like a lot of like

760
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,720
Speaker 3: the early like Columbine fandom on Tumblr was was young girls.

761
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 3: The fact that TCC is attracting like a wider net

762
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 3: than just cis males, I think is interesting, but it

763
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 3: points to these other social forces. I think condensing it

764
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 3: down to being like a certain mixture of SSRIs and

765
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 3: HRT is what's causing this.

766
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 5: Like there's psychedelics for that.

767
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, or psychedelics, right, I mean, like anything, these things

768
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 3: can exist within a healthy equilibrium, Right, Psychedelics can be

769
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: a very healthy tool for people to deal with like

770
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 3: mortality and yeah, no, absolutely right, you know, whether that's

771
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 3: you know, MDMA, ketamine or like mushrooms, Like mushrooms are

772
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 3: being used to treat people who have cancer, right, to

773
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 3: help them get comfortable with with this idea of their

774
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 3: own mortality. These things can exist within a healthy equilibrium

775
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 3: of the social but they can also exist in an

776
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 3: unhealthy non equilibrium, right. And I think the types of

777
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: ways that Jesse was writing about psychedelics online, I think

778
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 3: demonstrates a very unhealthy use of these drugs, especially as

779
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: like you know, like a sixteen year old, right, Like.

780
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 4: It's well, it sounds like self medication. It sounds like

781
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 4: unsupervised medication. And it also sounds like something that was

782
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 4: most likely acting as an accelerant. Right, Like, if you

783
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 4: already have a host of other problems, if you are

784
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 4: introducing a very large amount of incredibly powerful like you know,

785
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 4: psychostimulants into you know what you're in ingestine every day,

786
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 4: then it's going to have potentially very very dangerous outcomes.

787
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

788
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 3: Again, these are largely correlating factors, not cause, not causal forces.

789
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 8: Right.

790
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: The causal forces is this like social disintegration and deregulation,

791
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 3: of which, you know, abuse of psychedelics can do a

792
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: lot of damage to your sense of self and your

793
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 3: sense of self within like a larger a larger community.

794
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 3: And the fact that I think like specifically, you know,

795
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 3: the lacking mental health services lacking like oversight of these

796
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 3: things in terms like a palsy outlook, Like these are

797
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 3: things that we as a society should be putting more

798
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 3: work into. If you actually want to start solving this problem,

799
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 3: you can get into you know, larger, larger things about

800
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 3: you know, the alienation of like quote unquote late stage capitalism,

801
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 3: which you know also can be a factor in this.

802
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 4: Another accelerant, right, Like, I think a lot of these

803
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 4: are accelerants, right, every other thing that you've been listening,

804
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 4: and then it seems to me like you know, this

805
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 4: compounded upon this, which compounded upon this and eventually led

806
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 4: you know, someone to looking up more and more extreme content.

807
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

808
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: Well, one thing that I do want to mention, which

809
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 3: i've i've kind of seen seen discussed, is like that

810
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: this term like radicalization saying that you know, she was

811
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 3: like radicalized into this like violent content. This is more

812
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 3: of like a like a semantic note. I'm not sure

813
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 3: how useful like the term radicalization is in this case.

814
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,720
Speaker 3: If anything, I think she was like desensitized to horrific

815
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,319
Speaker 3: acts of violence through repeated viewing, and was in within

816
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 3: communities that encouraged this sort of thing. I think that's

817
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 3: the way that I'm framing it as opposed to you know,

818
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 3: radicalization makes makes you think of politics and like ideology.

819
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 4: Right right or not, Nazism or white supremacy or something

820
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 4: like that, right, yeah.

821
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like it's not that they're getting like

822
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 3: politically radical, it's that they're they're dropping out of the

823
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 3: social fabric and desensitizing themselves to this concept of like,

824
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 3: you know, horrific like societally targeted violence.

825
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 4: I know now that like obviously the right wing is

826
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 4: decided that they're uniquely going to be attacking trans people.

827
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if you're aware of the shooter's father's

828
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 4: statements that were just made recently. The father intentionally uses

829
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 4: terms like I am the biological father, refers to her

830
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:38,879
Speaker 4: with him pronouns, says that he was allowed to raise her,

831
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 4: that she was taken from him. Part of me is

832
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 4: also really fearful that this is going to be maybe

833
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 4: the future of the the Matt Walsh lips at TikTok circuit.

834
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 4: Right here, we have the case, like the number one

835
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 4: horror story that every right wing you know, personality always

836
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:53,919
Speaker 4: talks about, right.

837
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 5: Or that myth that Elon musk perpetuates.

838
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, that this is somehow negatively impacting their children.

839
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, that's a good thing to keep an eye on.

840
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 3: I haven't have not seen that in.

841
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,719
Speaker 4: Terms of like, you know, your analysis, and I appreciate it,

842
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 4: by the way a lot. I hadn't thought of it

843
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 4: that in those terms, in terms of like disconnecting from

844
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 4: the social fabric itself? Is there things that can be done?

845
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 4: Like is the recommendations beyond like obviously you know, late

846
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 4: stage capitalism and mass alienation and not solving that.

847
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 5: To more sure?

848
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean I'm not sure if I'm gonna

849
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 3: be able to solve that on a stream.

850
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:32,560
Speaker 5: No, you have to. Isn't it called that could happen here?

851
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 5: Let's let it happen.

852
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, Like there's a lot of things that

853
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: we can do, like even just like increasing like social services, right,

854
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: like the like fun funding social services can be a thing,

855
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: Like what what can we do to strengthen the social fabric?

856
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:46,359
Speaker 7: Right?

857
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 3: Give people available paths for their life? You know that's

858
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 3: through you know, education, free college, make make life actually

859
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 3: feel like you have a way to exist within a

860
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 3: social matrix. Canada already has you know, comp the state's

861
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 3: fairly restrictive gun laws. Those are a factor, but there's

862
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 3: even mass killings like this that happen, you know in

863
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,959
Speaker 3: Europe where people find other means of enacting them besides guns.

864
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,919
Speaker 5: Japan that sits swords and knives oftentimes. Yeah.

865
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, So like these things have some based social

866
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 3: social aspects that are going to be the things that

867
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 3: you're solving. Is is kind of more challenging rather than

868
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: just you know, taking away guns, making drugs that are

869
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 3: already illegal harder to get right. These things aren't aren't

870
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 3: going to actually eliminate this problem, but I mean, funding

871
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 3: social services can can be an aspect of this. Having

872
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 3: more comprehensive mental health care, you know, free healthcare check ins,

873
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: you know, if that's a big thing in the States.

874
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: Canada has that to some degree, but still there's obviously

875
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 3: room for improvement. But I mean, yes, solving these like

876
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,239
Speaker 3: larger social problems, that's like it's the question of the

877
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 3: twenty first century.

878
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I mean, you know, based on the story

879
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 4: that you're telling and the research you did, it does

880
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 4: really seem like this is one of those cases where

881
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 4: this doesn't happen off but when you see it get

882
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 4: to that end state this this is pretty much right,

883
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 4: the patterns become a lot more evident, the obsession with

884
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 4: the prior shootings, the mental health episodes, and now the

885
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 4: combining that with you know, very very prolific psychedelic drug use,

886
00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 4: and then here we are.

887
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 3: I mean, this person should not have had guns right

888
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 3: at a certain point. Their guns were taken away, our

889
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 3: guns and haus were taken away. If police knew about

890
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 3: their activity on these forums, I'm sure this wouldn't have

891
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 3: been returned. So there's there's there's certain things like you know,

892
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: parents being more aware of these sorts of like online spaces,

893
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 3: the school shooter fandom, you know, picking up signs of

894
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:39,799
Speaker 3: you know, social isolation. How much how much time your

895
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 3: kid is just spending alone on the internet and you

896
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 3: might not be knowing what they're doing. So solving that's

897
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 3: you know hard because because the solution for a lot

898
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:48,319
Speaker 3: of a lot of you know states is just like

899
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 3: increased surveillance on platforms like you know, discord age verification.

900
00:46:52,440 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 3: But those types of you know, guardrails don't exist on

901
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 3: a forum site like watch People Die, right, you can

902
00:46:57,640 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 3: you can have a very you know, safe regulated discord

903
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 3: which just pushes people to you know, even more niche

904
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 3: even more dangerous parts of the internet. You know, Watch

905
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 3: People Die started as a Reddit page that was you know,

906
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 3: taken down like seven years ago. Now it's you know

907
00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 3: a far a far less regulated, you know, thing that

908
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 3: that kids are spending a decent amount of time on.

909
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 3: But you know, being aware of you know, the risks

910
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: of this type of like social isolation, you know, is

911
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 3: also also a start. And ideally we do not have

912
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 3: a forum site, you know, dedicated to glorifying mass killings.

913
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 3: But banning a website is not so simple. It's easier

914
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,439
Speaker 3: than done, you know, figuring out a way to take

915
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 3: that down, right, I mean, same problem with you know,

916
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 3: like eight kun or like you know eight chan back

917
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 3: in the day four chan.

918
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 4: And eventually, but this one seems blatant to the point

919
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 4: of illegality, and I don't, I know, you don't have

920
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 4: time for me to start a topic.

921
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 5: But like other things, I.

922
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 3: Mean, like eight qun's also illegal, right, they host a

923
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:54,759
Speaker 3: lot of illegal content there. Finding a way to take

924
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 3: it down is still tricky. You know, there's a lot

925
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 3: of websites host illegal stuff just because it's you know illegal,

926
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 3: does does does not mean it's gonna it's gonna be solved.

927
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 3: Like the legal pathway there is is tricky.

928
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 4: But isn't the rule of some typically that if a

929
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 4: lot of those companies that provide them with the necessary

930
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 4: like d DOS security, they're like through line seems to

931
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,920
Speaker 4: be as long as it's not illegal, right, Like if

932
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 4: you're not running a child poor or sorry child sexual

933
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 4: abuse material website, if you're not running like an assassination

934
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 4: or cryptocurrency like drug site, you're fine.

935
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 5: Like, but that just does in practice doesn't work.

936
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 3: I'm unsure of the current hosting situation of Watch People Die,

937
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 3: but I wouldn't be surprised if they went through the

938
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 3: same kind of loopholes by registering at like a certain

939
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 3: foreign country with has that had that that's very loose guidelines,

940
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 3: like you know, that was the thing with like a

941
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: KUN for a while. But yeah, I'm actually unsure if

942
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 3: the current the current like setup that Watch People that

943
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 3: has Yeah, I've been talking about you know TCC and

944
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 3: this the school should defand them increasingly the past two years.

945
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,359
Speaker 3: And it's really tragic that it is something that i've

946
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 3: that is you know, a pattern that is that is

947
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: continuing right, this is like the really the main force

948
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 3: across these shootings, whether you're you know, assist girls, this boy,

949
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 3: a trans girl, trans guy, whatever, whatever demographic you know, racial.

950
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 3: You know, there was the the Antioch school shooting in

951
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 3: January twenty twenty five that was done by this like

952
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: black ironic neo Nazi, similarly linked to TCC as well,

953
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 3: Like whatever the demographic is. The through line that we're

954
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 3: seeing is this is this just like nihilistic obsession with

955
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 3: like the act of school shooting and this like fandom

956
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 3: that has developed around it.

957
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 4: Do you find the media picks up on that at all?

958
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 4: Like like no, You've done a lot of research into

959
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 4: do they reach out to you?

960
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:36,399
Speaker 5: Like do they never say?

961
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 3: Every every once in a while. But it takes them time.

962
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 3: It took them about three years after like the peak

963
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 3: of seven six four to start reporting on seven six four,

964
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 3: And now there's seven six four articles all the time,

965
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,439
Speaker 3: but it took them about three years to like ketch

966
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: up to it. I wouldn't be surprised if in a

967
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 3: year and a half we get tons of articles about TCC,

968
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 3: But a lot of legacy media is very slow to

969
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 3: this sort of thing. My own internet presence also exists

970
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,840
Speaker 3: kind of in the margins. My monitoring is is in

971
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 3: the margins, but those margins can have you know, very

972
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 3: very uh destabilizing social effects. But it does take a while.

973
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: I mean, same thing with the FBI, right, It took

974
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 3: them years to get on top of seven six four,

975
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 3: even though people were like reporting this stuff in like

976
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, But before seven six four was

977
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 3: even that organization. There was previous iterations called the CVLT.

978
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 3: But like you know that that style of thing was

979
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 3: was was a problem for years, and the FBI did

980
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 3: not really get on it until much later, and the

981
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 3: media then followed suit. Right, I do think I just

982
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,280
Speaker 3: don't have trust in you know, the current the current

983
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:45,919
Speaker 3: American enforcement that retty to really be on it right now.

984
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 3: You know, I can't. I'm unsure of how that works

985
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: in Canada at this point, but certainly certainly I don't

986
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 3: think Cashputel's FBI is going to be you know, on

987
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 3: this one super super well, even though they been trying to,

988
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,959
Speaker 3: you know, push some stuff like the nihilist violent extremism label,

989
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 3: which does cover stuff like this.

990
00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 4: But I know this is controversial, but in my opinion,

991
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 4: it almost feels as if Cash Mattel is actively trying

992
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,600
Speaker 4: to push narratives that will benefit this entire story that

993
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 4: we're talking about in the opposite direction, right, like if

994
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 4: you're trying to push the narrative that Charlie Kirk's shooter

995
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 4: and we're not going to change topics, but I'm just

996
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 4: you know, bring this up because you mentioned Cashptel. You're

997
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 4: trying to push that narrative that he was in fact

998
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:27,240
Speaker 4: trans or inspired by trans ideology or inspired by furries

999
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,960
Speaker 4: or furry culture, et cetera. They've tried everything, and now

1000
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 4: now we're at the point where it's like the loosest

1001
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 4: of connections. It's like, well, there may have been a

1002
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 4: lover who is or is not may or may not

1003
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 4: be trends or non binary.

1004
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 5: We're not sure, but that's enough. We got it. Cash

1005
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 5: Hotel will push the story.

1006
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, this is this administration comes out of

1007
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 3: the same kind of network of influencers who try to

1008
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:51,720
Speaker 3: grossly use horrific events to their own ideological advantage, including

1009
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:53,919
Speaker 3: too you know, attack groups of people that they find

1010
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:55,839
Speaker 3: to be bad as.

1011
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 5: Wild because it turns out they're all pedophiles.

1012
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 4: They're all part of an elite group of insiders, and

1013
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 4: so let's start talking about.

1014
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 5: The fscene files for next time. My brain, Like, I know,

1015
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 5: I'm just joking. I'm just joking.

1016
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 4: Where can everyone find you and your incredible work outside

1017
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 4: of listening to the amazing it could happen here podcast?

1018
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean, I occasionally post about Yawi on

1019
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 3: on x the Everything app at by shown in type.

1020
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 3: I'm trying to post more about Yaowe on Blue Sky.

1021
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 3: There's just just not as much of it. But you know,

1022
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 3: maybe I should be the change I want.

1023
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 5: To see the environment.

1024
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 3: It's more so that there's just not as many Yawi

1025
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 3: artists on Blue Sky. A lot of Yawi artists are

1026
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:46,720
Speaker 3: shockingly Japanese, and this Japan has a very large presence

1027
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 3: on next Everything app at least at the moment. I

1028
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 3: know some of their like AI image stuff is pushing,

1029
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 3: is pushing people to other platforms, but it's slow. But yeah,

1030
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,920
Speaker 3: I'm on, I'm on. I'm on those two places. I

1031
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: also occasionally post photography at Instagram also by shown end type.

1032
00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:05,840
Speaker 4: And I suppose if you enjoyed listening to me getting

1033
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 4: informed by the only information you heard here today, you

1034
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 4: should check out YouTube dot com slash at the Surf

1035
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,359
Speaker 4: Times where I post videos, and this one too will

1036
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 4: be there.

1037
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,400
Speaker 3: Hey you can look at uh yeah, me in a

1038
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 3: black turtle neck talk about sad things.

1039
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 4: There you go if you If you enjoyed the audio

1040
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 4: version and you want to see the the visual version

1041
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,200
Speaker 4: of it, head on down to YouTube dot com slash

1042
00:53:27,239 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 4: at the Surf Times.

1043
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining us today. Okay, I

1044
00:53:30,520 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 5: appreciate it.

1045
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me.

1046
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,240
Speaker 4: It was it was a ton of fun. Well actually

1047
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 4: it was sad, but it was. It was very informative.

1048
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the that's the needle I'd try to threat absolutely.

1049
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 6: Hello, everyone, welcome to it could happen here.

1050
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:57,200
Speaker 9: My name is Mink.

1051
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 6: I'm here with Shames and At Georgio and we're going

1052
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 6: to be talking about the documentary Isa Safari.

1053
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:09,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, Hi Mick, thanks for thanks for having us.

1054
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 9: Hi everyone, good to be here. Georgia. Do you want

1055
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 9: to introduce yourself.

1056
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:18,439
Speaker 10: I am Georgio. I am a Bosnian genocide researcher. I'm

1057
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 10: also the founder of the educational tool Voices from Ladrina,

1058
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 10: which is a new educational resource on the genocide in

1059
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:33,319
Speaker 10: Eastern Bosnia in particular, which allows researchers to follow the

1060
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 10: events of the genocide through a simulated social media style

1061
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 10: news feed, so the words of the survivors and the

1062
00:54:42,000 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 10: perpetrators come to life via the medium of social media.

1063
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 10: I'm also a member of the fantastic mutual aid group

1064
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:54,040
Speaker 10: Lambeth Mutual Aid in South London. You can follow us

1065
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 10: on Instagram at Lambeth Mutual Aid and you can follow

1066
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 10: me on the Hellhole that is ex at Georgio con

1067
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,439
Speaker 10: conn is Ko and not conn as in a conman. Yeah,

1068
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 10: that's I think the key information.

1069
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 6: Okay, great, then we're going to do the following. I've

1070
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 6: prepared roughly one page of context here for those of

1071
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,719
Speaker 6: you who remember a few months ago it was announced

1072
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 6: that the Italian prosecutors want to try and find the

1073
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 6: people who participated in the Sarajevo safari, and we'll be

1074
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 6: talking about the a documentary that highlights and tries to

1075
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 6: shed the lights on what happened there. The main accusation

1076
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 6: is that the Army of Republica Srbska, which is an

1077
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 6: entity within Bosnia and Herzegovina, that they charged lots of

1078
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:51,279
Speaker 6: moneies for tourists to come over and shoot at civilians,

1079
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 6: which is yeah, obviously horrible, Yeah, horrific. Nowadays, Bosli in

1080
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 6: Herzegovina has divided into two parts, which is like the

1081
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 6: Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the republic A serb Ska,

1082
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 6: which is essentially the territory that the republic A Cerviska

1083
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 6: Army gained during the war. Because I don't want to

1084
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 6: be there any confusion as to who the parties are,

1085
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 6: but it's pretty much two entities living in one nation state. Yes, So,

1086
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 6: after I've given some context on what happened during the

1087
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 6: Balkan Wars which led up to this event, we're going

1088
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 6: to be talking with Georgio about the documentary. Unfortunately, the

1089
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 6: documentary is not available with English subtitles, so I'm glad

1090
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 6: we were having you with us, Georgio, to illuminate us

1091
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 6: a bit more So, I also want to preface that

1092
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 6: obviously it's not a thorough history of what happened there.

1093
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,399
Speaker 6: That would be way too much information to condense into

1094
00:56:57,440 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 6: one episode. Also, while this episode will focus on the

1095
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:05,479
Speaker 6: plight of the Bosnian people, I do want to note

1096
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,000
Speaker 6: that pretty much every site in this entire conflict did

1097
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 6: horrendous things committed atrocities, and I think I would be

1098
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 6: britmiss if I didn't mention that. So we're going to

1099
00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 6: start with, like so many things. The Second World War

1100
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 6: around the formation of Yugoslavia as a communist state, with

1101
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 6: the Serbian city of Belgrade being the center of power.

1102
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 6: The Balkans were a major point of conflict during World

1103
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 6: War II, with a lot of different parties and state

1104
00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 6: actors trying to gain control over the region. Germany, Italy, Hungary,

1105
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,720
Speaker 6: Bulgaria and Albania as some of the main actors. A

1106
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 6: variety of alliances and other entities were formed, which will

1107
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 6: later be used in ethnic and ethnic nationalist discourse as

1108
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 6: a way to highlight the specific ethnic grievances. As a federation,

1109
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 6: Yugoslavia contained multiple ethnicity Serbs, Croats, Slovenes, Macedonians, Montenegrants, and Muslims,

1110
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 6: which would later become the called Bosniaks. And that's how

1111
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 6: I will be referring to them. So at the end

1112
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 6: of World War two, Joseph Tito would be the dictator

1113
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:20,000
Speaker 6: of Yugoslavi Ivia and he would try to counteract all

1114
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 6: this ethnic descent and friction by promoting something that he

1115
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 6: called brotherhood and unity, which sort of buot Tito on

1116
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:32,439
Speaker 6: a pedestal as a fatherly figure under whom everyone from

1117
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:36,600
Speaker 6: all the different factions and ethnicities would be equal as

1118
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 6: Yugoslav people. This was only partially successful. The friction was

1119
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 6: never really resolved, and after the death of Tito in

1120
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:49,919
Speaker 6: the eighties marked the beginning of the end. It coincided

1121
00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 6: with an economic crisis that sort of made all the

1122
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 6: different republics where all the different ethnicities were centered beholden

1123
00:58:58,800 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 6: to themselves became a bit of a free for all.

1124
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 6: So after that point, like ethno politics and nationalism became

1125
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 6: the focus.

1126
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 9: Of all politics.

1127
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:13,040
Speaker 6: Just to be really concrete, like with ethno nationalism, we

1128
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 6: mean like a form of nationalism that is based solely

1129
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 6: on ethnicity, not on citizenship or participation in a community.

1130
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 6: It's a lighter version of the blood and soil politics

1131
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 6: that became very synonymous with a certain German period of time.

1132
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 6: So what happened with this ethnic centric discourse is that

1133
00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 6: perceived and real grievances became central to almost all politics,

1134
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 6: most notably, but not certainly exclusively under a Slobodon melosophych

1135
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 6: who came to power late eighties in Serbia. Ethnic rhetoric

1136
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 6: would be the focal point for his politics and a

1137
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,479
Speaker 6: sense to power. He would say things that would turn

1138
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 6: into slogans, and with that kept sure the vital part

1139
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 6: of the the animosity that a large part of the

1140
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:08,560
Speaker 6: Serbian population would feel phrases like a weak Serbia means

1141
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 6: a strong Yugoslavia, hinting at the decline of Serbian power

1142
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 6: and the way they perceived this sort of slow fracturing

1143
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 6: that Yugoslavia was going through. Another one was in response

1144
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 6: to a Kosovari Serp was allegedly beaten by a Kosovari Albanian,

1145
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 6: and Melosovitch said, no one should dare beat you, meaning

1146
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 6: that by virtue of being a Serbian they should be

1147
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 6: granted some sort of additional status or some sort of

1148
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 6: untouchability because they were ethnic Serbs.

1149
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 9: These examples served.

1150
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 6: To make clear that the changing and growing public opinion

1151
01:00:49,120 --> 01:00:52,480
Speaker 6: among the Serbs was that the only way for them

1152
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 6: to be secure and say was as a national state

1153
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 6: controlled by the Serbs. So the whole idea was that

1154
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 6: they would control the entirety of Yugoslavia and that their

1155
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 6: ethnic group would be in control of the majority of

1156
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 6: the political institutions that were present there. As I think

1157
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 6: you both can imagine, this did not go over well

1158
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 6: with other ethnic groups.

1159
01:01:13,880 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, so we're just.

1160
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 6: Not very keen on being part of the federation controlled

1161
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:22,480
Speaker 6: by the Serbs. In March of nineteen ninety eight, the

1162
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 6: Croatian War of Independence started, and later that year Slovenia

1163
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,720
Speaker 6: did the same. Both decents that sparked the war already

1164
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:36,600
Speaker 6: with the Serbs. Bosnia and Herzegovina followed later. A referendum

1165
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:39,320
Speaker 6: was held in early nineteen ninety two on whether or

1166
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 6: not they were going to secede. They chose to secede,

1167
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 6: and in March of that year, Serbian forces attacked Bosnia

1168
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 6: and claimed towns in terrain that they deemed to be

1169
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 6: Serbian territory. Near the end of May, the Yugoslav People's

1170
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 6: Army attempted to gain control over the Bosnian capital of Sarajevo,

1171
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 6: but filled to do so completely at this when the

1172
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:04,400
Speaker 6: battle became a prolonged siege that would last until February

1173
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 6: of ninety six. Just to add a little bit more

1174
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 6: about the location, Geographically speaking, defending sa Rijevo was really difficult.

1175
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 6: The city lies between several mountains, which made it very

1176
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 6: easy for Serbine forces to set up artillery, ordinance and snipers.

1177
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 6: These would have very long lines of sights and greater

1178
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 6: range due to the elevated positions that they were set

1179
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 6: up in. If you look at a map of Sarajevo

1180
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 6: with like the terrain a for Google Maps or something,

1181
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 6: you can see how much elevation there is all around

1182
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 6: the city. Roads and passes leading out of the city

1183
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,200
Speaker 6: were blocked by Serbian forces, and once they had full

1184
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 6: control of the airport, there was little to no way

1185
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:52,479
Speaker 6: for foods, medicine, or reinforcements to be deployed there. Within

1186
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 6: the city itself, Serbine forces also controlled a majority of

1187
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,919
Speaker 6: major military positions, with additional sniper's being positioned around them.

1188
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:07,640
Speaker 6: Multiple areas became incredibly dangerous to cross or approach, particularly

1189
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 6: the main road leading towards the air courts. It became

1190
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:14,040
Speaker 6: known as sniper Alley. And I think it is in

1191
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 6: this context that we should start to discuss the documentary allegations. So, yeah,

1192
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 6: anything to add from either of you.

1193
01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it might.

1194
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 11: It might serve to explain how in the greater European

1195
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 11: political landscape, entities on the right. I guess in the

1196
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 11: global North generally it began to sympathize with actors in

1197
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 11: the former Yugoslavia, right, And how like maybe we can

1198
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 11: draw some lines between them based on their definition of nation,

1199
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 11: what they considered the nation to be. If that's something

1200
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 11: you'd like to explain to people.

1201
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 9: Yeah, absolutely.

1202
01:03:57,200 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 10: I think what's really important to stress is that when

1203
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 10: it came to Bosnia, and it's still the case to

1204
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 10: this day, to a lesser degree, the Bosnian Muslims, the

1205
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 10: Bosniacs found themselves at this very peculiar intersection of oppression

1206
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:23,760
Speaker 10: in which you had the Western European right framing the

1207
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 10: war against Bosnia as a restoration of Christian Europe. This

1208
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 10: was what John Major, how John Major was talking about it,

1209
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 10: who was then the Prime Minister of the UK. It's

1210
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,840
Speaker 10: also the kind of language we heard from mitteent in

1211
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:47,280
Speaker 10: France and to some extent in the Clinton administration. After

1212
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 10: Bill Clinton read that horrendous book Balkan Ghosts by Kaplan,

1213
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 10: his administration's rhetoric began to change and sort of framed

1214
01:04:57,080 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 10: this as this inevitable, you know, claud between these perpetually

1215
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 10: fighting tribes in the Balkans. You know, the legacies of

1216
01:05:07,680 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 10: that rhetoric are still heard in today's journalism. You know,

1217
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 10: I can't count the amount of times in even left leaning,

1218
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 10: supposedly Western journalistic publications, I've seen the word Balkanization being

1219
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 10: thrown around, you know. And this is what I'm talking

1220
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:32,440
Speaker 10: about in terms of the intersection of dehumanization, exoticization, and

1221
01:05:32,600 --> 01:05:38,439
Speaker 10: oppression that particularly Bosnia and the Muslims of Bosnia Bosniacs

1222
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 10: have found themselves at. And so you had that on

1223
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 10: the one side coming from the right. And by the way,

1224
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:52,200
Speaker 10: the Serbs nationalists knew this. They tailored their rhetorics so

1225
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 10: so so effectively to present this case of we are

1226
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 10: fighting Europe's battle again Islamist extremists. But at the same

1227
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 10: time you had the Western European political left, and by

1228
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 10: political left, I mean your Marxist Leninists, that sort of

1229
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:20,520
Speaker 10: tradition within the political left in Western Europe, sort of

1230
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:28,160
Speaker 10: buying into this co opting of anti fascist discourse from

1231
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:32,720
Speaker 10: the Miloshevich regime. Yeah, you know, Mike reference the Noah

1232
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 10: Wunschel dare Vitu speech in Kosovo, which was actually in

1233
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 10: response to a at best hyperbolized, at worst fictitious claim

1234
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:50,960
Speaker 10: that the Kosovo Serbs were basing this institutional violence, and

1235
01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 10: that co opting of that rhetoric that the Milashovich regime

1236
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 10: did so well as these anti imperialists fighting against the

1237
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,640
Speaker 10: the you know, evil acxis of the West did kind

1238
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 10: of work to some degree when we're thinking about the

1239
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:11,400
Speaker 10: response of the political parties on the left in Western

1240
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 10: Europe that were very sort of anti any intervention. And

1241
01:07:15,520 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 10: we can have a conversation about you know, NATO intervention

1242
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,360
Speaker 10: and how problematic that was. But this very black and

1243
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:26,520
Speaker 10: white thinking, very black and white rhetoric coming from those

1244
01:07:26,720 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 10: political actors in the West, well, this has nothing to

1245
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,720
Speaker 10: do with us. Don't buy into the rhetoric that there

1246
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 10: are bad things happening. Is you know, everyone's doing bad things.

1247
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 10: Therefore we shouldn't do anything to put any pressure on

1248
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,840
Speaker 10: the Muoshevich regime. And so the reason why I'm bringing

1249
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 10: this all up is because if people can understand that,

1250
01:07:47,760 --> 01:07:53,000
Speaker 10: then it becomes more understandable how Bosnia was left to burn,

1251
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 10: how the Bosnian Muslims in particular, who are being targeted

1252
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:03,360
Speaker 10: by sub forces and Croat forces both on the basis

1253
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 10: of their religious and ethnic identities. They found themselves completely abandoned,

1254
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 10: and obviously that abandonment really is embodied.

1255
01:08:12,320 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 9: In the arms embargo that served none of the victims.

1256
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:23,320
Speaker 10: It only served the Yugoslav army, which was effectively funding

1257
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:27,879
Speaker 10: and sponsoring the Serb forces who were committing genocide in Bosnia,

1258
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:31,879
Speaker 10: and of course the Krowat forces Zagreb had the Croatian

1259
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:36,559
Speaker 10: regime funding them. So this arms embargo, which was supposed

1260
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 10: to be this, you know, for want of a better word,

1261
01:08:39,320 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 10: neutral stance for the world to take, was not neutral

1262
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 10: at all. Of course, as we know, there's no such

1263
01:08:45,320 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 10: thing as neutrality, blah blah blah. But this was really

1264
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:53,639
Speaker 10: how it became possible for such a high number of people,

1265
01:08:54,640 --> 01:09:00,600
Speaker 10: the vast majority Muslim people, to be killed while the

1266
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 10: genocide was being televised.

1267
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:03,679
Speaker 7: Yeah, super important.

1268
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 9: You brought up Bill Clinton reading that book.

1269
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 6: I thought of putting it in there, but I didn't

1270
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 6: want to smirch Bill Clinton's good name here. Essentially, what

1271
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 6: the book does is it's sort of correct me if

1272
01:09:20,920 --> 01:09:24,080
Speaker 6: I'm wrong. It sort of puts forth this clash of

1273
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 6: civilizations kind of rhetoric where these two people are so different,

1274
01:09:29,640 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 6: are so different, they will always inevitably clash and fight

1275
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 6: and kill each other as sort of a biologically determined factors.

1276
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:39,400
Speaker 2: Almost.

1277
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean we see a similar sort of thing.

1278
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:46,680
Speaker 10: I mean, there were specificities to Palestine, but we see

1279
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 10: a similar sort of thing with the sort of liberal

1280
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 10: humanistic rhetoric of let's view the whats happening in Gaza

1281
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,240
Speaker 10: as beyond ethnic labels, you know, and we're going to

1282
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:05,960
Speaker 10: see the humanity behind everyone, and you know we you know,

1283
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:10,000
Speaker 10: I saw as a German comedian who was putting up

1284
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 10: posters of Palestinians who had been killed and Israelis who

1285
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 10: had been killed, and removing the ethnic labels and just

1286
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,600
Speaker 10: putting human killed. And it's going back to this what

1287
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 10: you're talking about in terms of here are two communities

1288
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:28,160
Speaker 10: that are already fighting each other, and we lose sight

1289
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 10: of everyone's humanity as a result. And if they would

1290
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 10: just stop fighting, if they were just you know, stopped

1291
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 10: for a second and look beyond the labels, then the

1292
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 10: world would be a better place. And it's all, in

1293
01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,920
Speaker 10: my opinion, tied up in the same illogic as that

1294
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,280
Speaker 10: book was getting it.

1295
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 6: It's sort of I don't see color yes approach, but

1296
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:53,759
Speaker 6: the conflicts yes, yes, yes, Oka, Yeah yeah, a similar

1297
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 6: narrative that's deployed in Syria and mean marriagely like to

1298
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 6: go to response of neoliberalism when they have absolutely no

1299
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,120
Speaker 6: understanding of a situation beyond that there is conflict there

1300
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 6: and people are dying, right Like, It's a very easy

1301
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:09,880
Speaker 6: response for anyone in a politician or an indio or

1302
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 6: who wants to write a ship book.

1303
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 11: It's very easy to do that and to sell that

1304
01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:17,839
Speaker 11: narrative right for rerapeeding to people who don't.

1305
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:18,600
Speaker 7: Know fuck all about it.

1306
01:11:19,680 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And I also want to add another thing

1307
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:29,759
Speaker 6: because nowadays Bosnian Herzegovina as a is divided into two parts,

1308
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,560
Speaker 6: which is like the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

1309
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 6: the republic A serb Ska, which is essentially the territory

1310
01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 6: that the republic A Cerviska Army gained during the war.

1311
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 6: Because I don't want to be there any confusion as

1312
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,760
Speaker 6: to who the parties are, but it's pretty much two

1313
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:52,479
Speaker 6: entities living in one.

1314
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:54,559
Speaker 9: Nation state.

1315
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 6: Yes, this was also like a recurring theme when I

1316
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:01,880
Speaker 6: was in Bosnia. From my mastrtisis that there is a

1317
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:06,759
Speaker 6: deep sentiment with the people, but also politically that Bosnia

1318
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 6: X were left to their faith because Bosnian hearts giving

1319
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:13,680
Speaker 6: us the only Muslim majority country in Europe, and there

1320
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 6: is a very.

1321
01:12:15,080 --> 01:12:17,800
Speaker 9: Deep feeling of like, the reason that we were left

1322
01:12:18,200 --> 01:12:19,280
Speaker 9: out in the colt.

1323
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 6: That we were abandoned is because it was a Muslim

1324
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 6: majority country. And I think that's just a very important

1325
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 6: thing to highlight, because that is also a starting point

1326
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 6: of the vilification of Muslims by virtue of being Muslim,

1327
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:37,000
Speaker 6: that sort of ideological war of the West versus the

1328
01:12:37,120 --> 01:12:42,200
Speaker 6: Eastern Muslims that sort of started to coalesce at around

1329
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 6: that time.

1330
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 10: I think I don't know if i'd say it was

1331
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:50,040
Speaker 10: the start, but what I would say is the legacies

1332
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 10: of Europe's obsession with the Ottoman Empire really came to

1333
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,680
Speaker 10: the fore in Bosnia because because a lot of the

1334
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:06,679
Speaker 10: rhetoric and the discourses that were being produced by Serb

1335
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 10: forces hinged around this idea that we, the Serbs, are

1336
01:13:13,479 --> 01:13:17,559
Speaker 10: finishing the job that we started in the Balkan Wars

1337
01:13:17,800 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 10: of the eighteen hundreds and nineteen hundreds. We are finishing

1338
01:13:22,479 --> 01:13:26,560
Speaker 10: the job of getting rid of this remnant of the

1339
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 10: Ottoman Empire. The Muslims in Bosnia, And in fact, you know,

1340
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:35,519
Speaker 10: I always go to a piece of footage from the

1341
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 10: eleventh of July nineteen ninety five when the General of

1342
01:13:39,479 --> 01:13:44,960
Speaker 10: the Army of the Republic Assavska Ratkomladic, who is serving

1343
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:49,679
Speaker 10: a life sentence for genocide, his forces entered. They invaded

1344
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:54,639
Speaker 10: sore Brnitza, Serebrenitza had fallen, and he says to the camera,

1345
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:57,839
Speaker 10: we have come here to take revenge on the Turks.

1346
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 10: And I think that really embodies what I'm trying to

1347
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 10: say here, which is that these legacies of this clash

1348
01:14:06,240 --> 01:14:09,799
Speaker 10: of civilizations that were sort of prominent in the various

1349
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 10: wars against the Ottomans came back and they were redeployed.

1350
01:14:13,920 --> 01:14:18,559
Speaker 10: They were reactivated by sub forces in particular, but also

1351
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 10: crap forces to a lesser degree. And you know, I

1352
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 10: go back to what I was saying before, John Major, saying,

1353
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,759
Speaker 10: this is a painful but inevitable restoration of Christian Europe

1354
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 10: on some level. On some level, Western Europe was buying

1355
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:38,120
Speaker 10: into it on some level. So yeah, I don't think

1356
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,240
Speaker 10: it was the start of the vilification of Muslims, but

1357
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,760
Speaker 10: I think that it was intertwined with previous legacies that

1358
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:44,720
Speaker 10: were reactivated.

1359
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,280
Speaker 11: Yeah, and this was very much like the zeitgeist at

1360
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 11: that time, right, like Huntington's writing Clash of Civilizations. Then,

1361
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:57,360
Speaker 11: seems like a lot of the response in much of

1362
01:14:57,400 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 11: the world to the end of the Cold War was

1363
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 11: to we ate another enemy, and that became Islam. That's

1364
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:10,520
Speaker 11: sort of the discourse after Fukuyama. Sorry to mention Fukuyama,

1365
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 11: but like people didn't want there to be apart from him,

1366
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:19,320
Speaker 11: like an end to the conflict of how to organize

1367
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:22,640
Speaker 11: our societies and because that's a ludicrous thesis, and so

1368
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 11: they they're very much I think a lot of the

1369
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,680
Speaker 11: sort of fear that plays such an important role in

1370
01:15:30,760 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 11: politics in many of our countries was remobilized in this

1371
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 11: orientalist packaging towards most of the people that, as you say,

1372
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 11: built on centuries of bigotry. My only engagement with the

1373
01:15:44,640 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 11: conflict when I was much younger was that somebody who

1374
01:15:47,920 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 11: I knew through cycling had previously been a football hooligan.

1375
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 11: I think that's probably how we would describe himself. There

1376
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 11: was a great deal of exchange in fan violence, I

1377
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 11: guess would be the academic between the former Yugoslavia and

1378
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 11: the rest of Europe, which is so interesting and not

1379
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,479
Speaker 11: a great way to learn about things.

1380
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 2: I mean, what's.

1381
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 10: Interesting is that there has been a direct connection between

1382
01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:17,919
Speaker 10: the far right nationalist gangs, the paramilitaries that committed a trustees,

1383
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 10: and some of the Serbian football clubs, and in particular

1384
01:16:22,360 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 10: the ultras in those.

1385
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 9: Clubs, because those football clubs were the sort of.

1386
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 10: Gateway for mafia bosses to transition back into normal society.

1387
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,160
Speaker 10: So yeah, it's a very interesting area of the of

1388
01:16:37,240 --> 01:16:38,639
Speaker 10: the broader conflict.

1389
01:16:40,040 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 6: I think at this point we should get back on

1390
01:16:43,280 --> 01:16:46,560
Speaker 6: back on track a bit. Yes, let's talk about the

1391
01:16:46,640 --> 01:16:48,920
Speaker 6: thing we came to talk about. Yeah, well, we're going

1392
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:52,080
Speaker 6: to talk about the siege of Sarajevo and the documentary

1393
01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:57,719
Speaker 6: Sarajevo Safari. But first we should experience the prolonged siege

1394
01:16:57,960 --> 01:16:59,160
Speaker 6: of advertisements.

1395
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 11: And we're back, as we said before we left to

1396
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 11: bestias with advertisements. We should talk about this, the Sarajevo Safari.

1397
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:25,280
Speaker 11: I guess maybe should we just begin by summarizing the

1398
01:17:25,560 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 11: the maybe allegation is still the correct word. I don't

1399
01:17:29,280 --> 01:17:32,000
Speaker 11: know the events that are documented in the film.

1400
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:32,560
Speaker 7: Let's say that.

1401
01:17:33,360 --> 01:17:38,439
Speaker 10: Yeah, so the Sarajevo Safari Documentary was a is a

1402
01:17:38,520 --> 01:17:44,800
Speaker 10: documentary that was made by Slovenian filmmaker Miran and it

1403
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:51,120
Speaker 10: presents longstanding allegations that there was a form of war

1404
01:17:51,320 --> 01:17:56,639
Speaker 10: tourism taking place during the Siege of Sarajevo, in which

1405
01:17:57,240 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 10: affluent non Bosnians paying very high fees to shoot at

1406
01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:08,000
Speaker 10: civilians from sniper positions being held by the Army of

1407
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:13,560
Speaker 10: the public. These allegations and the narrative of the documentary

1408
01:18:13,760 --> 01:18:19,759
Speaker 10: is presented through witness testimony, including an anonymous former intelligence agent,

1409
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:25,400
Speaker 10: and the film and the sort of the testimonies that

1410
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:29,680
Speaker 10: are part of the film claim that this war tourism,

1411
01:18:29,920 --> 01:18:35,120
Speaker 10: or this safari, this hunting human hunting game effectively business,

1412
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:43,040
Speaker 10: was a sophisticated, organized and secret operation. One of the

1413
01:18:44,120 --> 01:18:47,880
Speaker 10: most shocking allegations that the documentary brings to light is

1414
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:54,240
Speaker 10: that these non Bosnian forists want of a better words,

1415
01:18:54,960 --> 01:19:00,639
Speaker 10: would pay even more money to shoot at children. Now

1416
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:05,439
Speaker 10: in total, I mean that we don't have exact figures

1417
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:09,720
Speaker 10: for various reasons that are very complicated. It's estimated that

1418
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:16,000
Speaker 10: over eleven thousand people were murdered in Sarajevo from these snipers.

1419
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:21,360
Speaker 10: So the fact that this documentary is presenting these allegations

1420
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:25,760
Speaker 10: that it wasn't just a Serb affair and that there

1421
01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 10: were other nationals taking part in these crimes is huge.

1422
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 9: It is huge.

1423
01:19:33,240 --> 01:19:36,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, So that's kind of the gist of what the

1424
01:19:36,720 --> 01:19:40,000
Speaker 10: documentary is trying to put across. Obviously, there's more that

1425
01:19:40,080 --> 01:19:42,560
Speaker 10: I could say about the context and about sort of

1426
01:19:42,760 --> 01:19:46,519
Speaker 10: the context of the of the case that has been

1427
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:50,720
Speaker 10: taken up in Italy, but you know, we can talk

1428
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:53,639
Speaker 10: about that as we as we go go along.

1429
01:19:54,360 --> 01:19:54,559
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1430
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 6: I think one of the allegations is also that there's

1431
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:03,479
Speaker 6: like tourists from the United States, from Canada, from Russia

1432
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 6: and also from Italy to not go down the rabbit

1433
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 6: hole instantly, I just want there to ask you, Giorgio,

1434
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,560
Speaker 6: because I first heard about this film.

1435
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:18,520
Speaker 9: When I was in Sarajevo, and back then, well, my first.

1436
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:20,760
Speaker 6: Instinct was that this has to be some sort of

1437
01:20:20,840 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 6: conspiracy theory, and that is partly to do with the

1438
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 6: person I interviewed back then and the way it was

1439
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 6: presented to me during that interview, but also because I

1440
01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:34,640
Speaker 6: don't think any of us is shocked that the atrocities

1441
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:37,959
Speaker 6: and the crimes against humanity of war. But this somehow

1442
01:20:38,600 --> 01:20:44,600
Speaker 6: feels like another level. So what was your first impression

1443
01:20:45,439 --> 01:20:49,599
Speaker 6: Bosnian genocide researchery to something like this happening.

1444
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 10: My first reaction was, I mean, I don't want to

1445
01:20:58,760 --> 01:21:01,920
Speaker 10: take away from the gravity of the documentary. I was shocked,

1446
01:21:01,960 --> 01:21:09,280
Speaker 10: but not surprised. So it is shocking that this sort

1447
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:15,880
Speaker 10: of spectacle of violence was happening to that extent. In

1448
01:21:16,000 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 10: the same way that it's shocking that the concentration camps

1449
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:26,320
Speaker 10: of Omasca, all of those concentration camps were being televised

1450
01:21:27,080 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 10: and were still in operation. I mean, yes, eventually the

1451
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,280
Speaker 10: international pressure shut them down, but it took a long time.

1452
01:21:34,280 --> 01:21:38,000
Speaker 10: That is all shocking. It is shocking that the peace

1453
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:42,480
Speaker 10: agreement that brought a formal end to the conflict legitimized

1454
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:47,679
Speaker 10: simultaneously the political project of the Republicaska by recognizing the entity.

1455
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 10: All of these things are shocking. So for me, the

1456
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:57,679
Speaker 10: allegations of the documentary all into this broader abject failure

1457
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:02,639
Speaker 10: and complicity of so called international community in the crimes

1458
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:05,080
Speaker 10: that were being committed in Bosnia. So that is why

1459
01:22:05,120 --> 01:22:08,799
Speaker 10: I'm not surprised. I was shocking. The content is shocking.

1460
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:12,440
Speaker 10: The fact that it was able to happen is not surprising,

1461
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:21,040
Speaker 10: and I think the documentary speaks to the broader complicity

1462
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:25,600
Speaker 10: of so many layers of society in the atrocities that

1463
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:29,800
Speaker 10: were being committed. You know, let's be real, let's be

1464
01:22:30,000 --> 01:22:36,160
Speaker 10: really really blunt here. The countries from which the tourists

1465
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:40,640
Speaker 10: came are not the only countries that are implicated in

1466
01:22:40,720 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 10: the atrocities of the war and genocide in Bosnia. You

1467
01:22:44,680 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 10: had far right volunteers from Greece who were being trained

1468
01:22:50,560 --> 01:22:54,320
Speaker 10: by Ratko Mladtch's army, who.

1469
01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:54,680
Speaker 5: Were in.

1470
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,760
Speaker 10: On the eleventh of July, that the Greek state has

1471
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:07,240
Speaker 10: never investigated. You had banks in Cyprus that were allowing

1472
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:11,920
Speaker 10: Miloshevich to funnel his money into them during the embargo.

1473
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:15,760
Speaker 10: You know, there are so many states who on some

1474
01:23:16,080 --> 01:23:20,240
Speaker 10: level have played a role in the atrocities that have

1475
01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 10: not held themselves or their nationals accountable. So, yeah, that

1476
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 10: is my reaction, if that makes sense to you guys.

1477
01:23:31,160 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 11: You know, yeah, we live in a in a age

1478
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:38,800
Speaker 11: where they get most people's thoughts are directly transcribed to

1479
01:23:39,040 --> 01:23:42,040
Speaker 11: their social media profiles at all times, right, and I

1480
01:23:42,160 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 11: think it is probably easier than it has ever been

1481
01:23:49,320 --> 01:23:53,599
Speaker 11: for us to bear witness to it genocide as multiple

1482
01:23:53,640 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 11: genisides are recurring, like at the time that we're recording, right,

1483
01:23:56,280 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 11: But obviously that's the most I wouldn't even say the

1484
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 11: most well documented, the one that certainly gets the most

1485
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:05,240
Speaker 11: social media attention. It's the one happening in Gaza for

1486
01:24:05,800 --> 01:24:09,400
Speaker 11: pretty obvious reasons. People are probably better placed now to

1487
01:24:09,640 --> 01:24:13,320
Speaker 11: understand this in the context of a genocide than they

1488
01:24:13,360 --> 01:24:17,600
Speaker 11: would have been five years ago, even right that the

1489
01:24:17,680 --> 01:24:21,559
Speaker 11: project of a genocide has happened so in the open,

1490
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:25,560
Speaker 11: and then they have seen nations which claim to be

1491
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,960
Speaker 11: opposed to these things, and institutions which were created to

1492
01:24:29,000 --> 01:24:33,679
Speaker 11: stop genocides do nothing. So I think it's probably easier

1493
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:37,839
Speaker 11: than ever for people to understand the dehumanization that happens

1494
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:42,120
Speaker 11: and the way that these things progress. But I wonder

1495
01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:46,640
Speaker 11: like it's just such a like you said, make like

1496
01:24:47,640 --> 01:24:51,920
Speaker 11: it's one thing to go to war, right, and it's

1497
01:24:51,920 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 11: another thing to have war come to you, Like I

1498
01:24:55,479 --> 01:25:00,519
Speaker 11: have traveled to report on wars, but the you said, like,

1499
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:03,040
Speaker 11: war isn't trying to be violent, and in this particular war,

1500
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:07,479
Speaker 11: acts of inhuman violence happened often and from a great

1501
01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 11: deal of actors, right, but like, it's one thing when

1502
01:25:10,360 --> 01:25:12,679
Speaker 11: it is your community that is under threat, your family

1503
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 11: have been killed, and then you respond with violence, Like

1504
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:17,600
Speaker 11: it doesn't make it right, but that is how war is.

1505
01:25:18,280 --> 01:25:20,840
Speaker 11: It's another thing to pay to hop on a flight

1506
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 11: and go and shoot a child like that is particularly craven.

1507
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:31,600
Speaker 11: So I wonder, like it seems like the cases that

1508
01:25:31,720 --> 01:25:34,000
Speaker 11: the prosecutions are mostly focusing on, like people from the

1509
01:25:34,040 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 11: Italian far right, do you have an idea of like

1510
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:42,360
Speaker 11: this was for them part of that project of like

1511
01:25:43,439 --> 01:25:46,600
Speaker 11: like doing a second a conquista right for want of

1512
01:25:46,680 --> 01:25:50,040
Speaker 11: a better term, like purging Muslim people from Europe, or

1513
01:25:50,080 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 11: if it was simply the thrill of killing other humans.

1514
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:59,120
Speaker 10: I think it would be remiss to try and detach

1515
01:25:59,320 --> 01:26:02,840
Speaker 10: the thrill of killing humans from who those humans are.

1516
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 10: That's my honest opinion.

1517
01:26:05,760 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 5: That's fair.

1518
01:26:06,640 --> 01:26:08,320
Speaker 9: I think, you know, I.

1519
01:26:10,080 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 10: Know less about the granular details of these people from Italy,

1520
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:18,960
Speaker 10: from the far right who were going to do this,

1521
01:26:19,640 --> 01:26:23,360
Speaker 10: But if I think about what I know about the

1522
01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:26,479
Speaker 10: Greek far right volunteers, where we have a bit more

1523
01:26:26,520 --> 01:26:30,599
Speaker 10: information to go on and why they were going to Bosnia.

1524
01:26:31,400 --> 01:26:35,760
Speaker 10: This was all about fighting the Turks. This was all

1525
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 10: about helping our Christian brothers, the Serbs, in their fight

1526
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:47,040
Speaker 10: against the Muslims. And I suspect that it wasn't too

1527
01:26:47,160 --> 01:26:51,880
Speaker 10: dissimilar in the political imaginary of the Italian far rights,

1528
01:26:52,439 --> 01:26:54,360
Speaker 10: and not just the Italian far right, I mean, as

1529
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,720
Speaker 10: we said, from all the other countries where they were

1530
01:26:56,760 --> 01:27:00,839
Speaker 10: coming from. So yeah, I think there was a framing

1531
01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 10: that was behind a lot of this international participation that

1532
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:12,680
Speaker 10: the Serb nationalists were very aware of, and they were

1533
01:27:12,800 --> 01:27:16,360
Speaker 10: very deliberate in the discourses that they were producing. I'll

1534
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,840
Speaker 10: give another example. When I was working at the Memorial Center,

1535
01:27:20,000 --> 01:27:23,920
Speaker 10: I was read in Cere. I was reading the transcripts

1536
01:27:24,040 --> 01:27:27,720
Speaker 10: of the Assembly of the Publicska during the war, and

1537
01:27:28,400 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 10: in those transcripts I can count on one hand the

1538
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:38,880
Speaker 10: amount of times that Serb nationalist officials referred to Bosnian.

1539
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:40,479
Speaker 9: Muslims as Bosnian Muslims.

1540
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 10: They were, in the vast majority of cases referred to

1541
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:53,080
Speaker 10: as either Turks or Islamists, or terrorists or even Ustasia,

1542
01:27:53,720 --> 01:27:56,559
Speaker 10: who for anyone listening who may not be aware, were

1543
01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 10: the Croatian See aligned regime that took control of what

1544
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:07,040
Speaker 10: is today Bosnia Herzegovina and also what is today Croatia

1545
01:28:07,320 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 10: during the Second World War. And so you know, this

1546
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:14,960
Speaker 10: course is they are produced for a reason. And I

1547
01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 10: know I'm going a little bit, you know, sort of

1548
01:28:17,479 --> 01:28:21,559
Speaker 10: full core and whatever. I don't like talking in that way,

1549
01:28:21,640 --> 01:28:24,639
Speaker 10: but I will try to keep it as accessible as possible.

1550
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:32,000
Speaker 10: When people produce discourses, it's to create not only a

1551
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:35,000
Speaker 10: sense of what is true and what is false, but

1552
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:37,920
Speaker 10: also it's to create this feeling of truth.

1553
01:28:38,439 --> 01:28:39,519
Speaker 9: It's what feels right.

1554
01:28:40,120 --> 01:28:45,719
Speaker 10: So you know, it felt right to so many members

1555
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:49,200
Speaker 10: of the far right to take up arms and hop

1556
01:28:49,280 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 10: on a plane or whatever and go to Bosnia to fight,

1557
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:59,480
Speaker 10: you know, without questioning what actually the war in genocide

1558
01:28:59,600 --> 01:28:59,920
Speaker 10: was about.

1559
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:01,519
Speaker 9: It felt right.

1560
01:29:02,080 --> 01:29:05,280
Speaker 10: And so that's how these discourses, that's what they served

1561
01:29:05,479 --> 01:29:08,280
Speaker 10: to create this feeling of this is the truth and

1562
01:29:08,400 --> 01:29:09,880
Speaker 10: this is the right thing for us to do.

1563
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, that was a very long winded answer. I apologize,

1564
01:29:14,160 --> 01:29:14,920
Speaker 9: no you doing it.

1565
01:29:15,680 --> 01:29:18,240
Speaker 11: It reminds me a lot of the discourses that we

1566
01:29:18,439 --> 01:29:24,000
Speaker 11: saw in Myanmar preceding the genocide of the Hina people, right, like,

1567
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:27,439
Speaker 11: very rarely did we see them referred to by that

1568
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:30,720
Speaker 11: name or as of them being natives of me and

1569
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 11: maa right or them having been there for centuries. They're

1570
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,840
Speaker 11: referred to as terrorists. They're referred to as bangladeshues. They're

1571
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:39,800
Speaker 11: referred to as illegal immigrants. They're often referred to as

1572
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:42,639
Speaker 11: members of the Islamic state for Iraq and al Sham,

1573
01:29:42,760 --> 01:29:46,519
Speaker 11: which shows a fundamental misunderstanding of those last two words.

1574
01:29:47,280 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 11: But it's important, I think, to see these commonalities because

1575
01:29:51,080 --> 01:29:54,080
Speaker 11: we should be able to identify these things and then

1576
01:29:54,240 --> 01:29:55,880
Speaker 11: like see how dangerous they are.

1577
01:29:56,600 --> 01:29:59,640
Speaker 9: Yeah. Absolutely, you know.

1578
01:29:59,640 --> 01:30:04,360
Speaker 6: Who doesn't produce discourses that make people hope on flights

1579
01:30:04,400 --> 01:30:07,840
Speaker 6: to other countries. I'm not sure we can say that

1580
01:30:07,960 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 6: these days, let's hope. Yeah, that's true, But we have

1581
01:30:12,160 --> 01:30:16,280
Speaker 6: to think of something, so I guess this will do it. Yeah,

1582
01:30:16,320 --> 01:30:18,200
Speaker 6: I can't have golden pivots all the time.

1583
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:30,720
Speaker 7: All right, we are back.

1584
01:30:31,720 --> 01:30:33,760
Speaker 11: Should we talk a little more in depth about like

1585
01:30:34,200 --> 01:30:38,519
Speaker 11: this practice of human safaris, right, or at least the

1586
01:30:38,720 --> 01:30:41,680
Speaker 11: allegations that are made so well.

1587
01:30:41,720 --> 01:30:46,080
Speaker 6: I am curious Georgia, because I was still reading into

1588
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 6: this a bit earlier today. And one of the testimonies

1589
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:57,880
Speaker 6: that popped up during the trial of Dragolosch not Slowbodone.

1590
01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:01,120
Speaker 9: I'm not sure if they're related. To be honest, probably not.

1591
01:31:02,400 --> 01:31:07,880
Speaker 6: But there's an American called Sean Jordan who testified at

1592
01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:12,040
Speaker 6: the International Criminal Courts. He led a volunteer fighter fighter

1593
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:15,800
Speaker 6: units during the siege, but he also says that some

1594
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:20,280
Speaker 6: of the people he worked with also had seen tourists

1595
01:31:20,400 --> 01:31:25,439
Speaker 6: in other areas and most stars named specifically. Is there

1596
01:31:25,479 --> 01:31:30,559
Speaker 6: any more detail in there about this happening in other

1597
01:31:30,640 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 6: areas of Bosnia or other places.

1598
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 10: Well about most that in particular, I am not sure

1599
01:31:39,920 --> 01:31:46,120
Speaker 10: because I've not heard myself of those allegations. Obviously, there

1600
01:31:46,439 --> 01:31:51,200
Speaker 10: was the Greek Volunteer Guard who were in places like Cerebronitza,

1601
01:31:51,360 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 10: but also with sche Grad. They went on after the

1602
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 10: war to become well, actually sorry, I'll correct myself. Even

1603
01:31:59,000 --> 01:32:02,920
Speaker 10: at that time they were part of the what later

1604
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:08,400
Speaker 10: became Golden Dawn, the far right now criminal organization was

1605
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:12,120
Speaker 10: a political party, so that you know, you had that

1606
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:17,760
Speaker 10: happening in terms of tourists non combatants. I am not

1607
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:21,360
Speaker 10: aware of other places where it was happening on a

1608
01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:27,160
Speaker 10: large scale, like in Sarajo, So yeah, I'm not perhaps

1609
01:32:27,200 --> 01:32:30,080
Speaker 10: the best place to go into more detail about that,

1610
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:34,759
Speaker 10: but I will definitely talk to my contacts in Mostad

1611
01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:37,760
Speaker 10: about the allegation any allegations there.

1612
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:42,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, I guess one thing that I want to ask is,

1613
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:47,080
Speaker 11: like we're seeing a very limited persecution right in Italy,

1614
01:32:47,160 --> 01:32:50,640
Speaker 11: and I think maybe also in somewhere in like is

1615
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:54,320
Speaker 11: it in Belgium or the Netherlands? I thought I read

1616
01:32:54,360 --> 01:32:57,200
Speaker 11: that there was another prosecution, not not to confuse its

1617
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:02,960
Speaker 11: few countries make sorry, but for the people who survived

1618
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:07,880
Speaker 11: the genocide, right, what does this You can't speak on

1619
01:33:07,920 --> 01:33:11,920
Speaker 11: their behalf, of course, but like, on the one hand,

1620
01:33:12,320 --> 01:33:16,360
Speaker 11: it is some very small move towards justice, but at

1621
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:19,200
Speaker 11: least it's a movement. But on the other hand, right,

1622
01:33:19,280 --> 01:33:22,160
Speaker 11: like the deaths of their family members have been played

1623
01:33:22,200 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 11: out in this documentary and it must be very difficult

1624
01:33:24,200 --> 01:33:29,719
Speaker 11: to understand just just how like, I don't know, casually

1625
01:33:30,280 --> 01:33:35,600
Speaker 11: like life was taken during the this genocide. Yeah, do

1626
01:33:35,680 --> 01:33:38,479
Speaker 11: you think it helps healing? Like I guess I'm struggling

1627
01:33:38,479 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 11: to phrase out as a question, but you know, like

1628
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:44,280
Speaker 11: I'm interesting to know how this this this lands. From

1629
01:33:44,320 --> 01:33:45,599
Speaker 11: that perspective, I guess.

1630
01:33:46,840 --> 01:33:56,000
Speaker 10: The general mood among survivors in Bosnia is that no

1631
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 10: one cares about what happened to us.

1632
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,160
Speaker 9: These films that go on.

1633
01:34:01,280 --> 01:34:05,760
Speaker 10: To get awards potentially, and they know, the filmmakers get

1634
01:34:05,800 --> 01:34:08,160
Speaker 10: a pat on the back and all of that. They

1635
01:34:08,320 --> 01:34:12,280
Speaker 10: sort of there's a lot of cynicism around that. And

1636
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:16,679
Speaker 10: we saw this in particular in regard to cor Valdis

1637
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 10: either I'm not sure if you both watched that, but

1638
01:34:19,760 --> 01:34:26,600
Speaker 10: that recent one was that twenty twenty one, maybe a

1639
01:34:26,640 --> 01:34:29,240
Speaker 10: few years ago, which if anyone who hasn't watched it

1640
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:34,600
Speaker 10: is a film that depicts the genocide Insteadza and you know,

1641
01:34:34,920 --> 01:34:37,600
Speaker 10: and that won some awards that I can't remember the

1642
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:41,360
Speaker 10: titles of them, but you know, the sort of response

1643
01:34:41,400 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 10: among particularly the Bosniak community was one of mixed emotions. Yes,

1644
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:50,519
Speaker 10: on the one hand, it was, you know, something that

1645
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:53,519
Speaker 10: they were willing to support, you know, they would hold

1646
01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:57,840
Speaker 10: screenings of the film, they would you know, collaborate with

1647
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 10: the director. But on the other hand, there was this

1648
01:35:02,280 --> 01:35:05,400
Speaker 10: sense of okay, and now what. And I think from

1649
01:35:05,439 --> 01:35:08,800
Speaker 10: the conversations that I've had with Bosniaks and from the

1650
01:35:09,000 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 10: articles that I've read in response to this documentary, there's

1651
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:17,880
Speaker 10: a similar sort of mood of yeah, this is really important,

1652
01:35:18,560 --> 01:35:21,400
Speaker 10: and we have been making these allegations for a long time.

1653
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 10: Or we've been aware of the allegations for a long time.

1654
01:35:24,320 --> 01:35:27,599
Speaker 10: Why is it getting attention now? What's going to happen now?

1655
01:35:28,160 --> 01:35:31,280
Speaker 10: Can we trust that the Italians will that Italy will

1656
01:35:31,439 --> 01:35:35,479
Speaker 10: actually carry on with this investigation and that justice will

1657
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:39,080
Speaker 10: be had? And also, you know, the notion of justice

1658
01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:43,120
Speaker 10: is so fraught in Bosnia as well. I think that

1659
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,639
Speaker 10: sort of to imagine that we are on this path

1660
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 10: towards you know, this linear path towards absolute healing and

1661
01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:57,479
Speaker 10: absolute justice and reconciliation, I think is a sort of

1662
01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:00,839
Speaker 10: a notion that that comforts a lot of wet an NGOs.

1663
01:36:01,560 --> 01:36:06,080
Speaker 10: It's not necessarily reflective a reality on the ground. So yeah,

1664
01:36:06,840 --> 01:36:09,360
Speaker 10: I don't think I would reconnecting this with any sense

1665
01:36:09,400 --> 01:36:10,719
Speaker 10: of healing at this stage.

1666
01:36:11,400 --> 01:36:12,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think that makes sense.

1667
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:16,439
Speaker 11: It can be easy to see it as like, well,

1668
01:36:16,479 --> 01:36:20,720
Speaker 11: it's out in the open now. People have watched a

1669
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:24,920
Speaker 11: film about it, right, you know, like I think a

1670
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:30,200
Speaker 11: lot about the genocaid these are UCD people, and how

1671
01:36:30,479 --> 01:36:36,720
Speaker 11: like it essentially just has been liting what twelve years

1672
01:36:36,760 --> 01:36:40,200
Speaker 11: ago now and it's been entirely forgotten. Yeah, but most people,

1673
01:36:40,320 --> 01:36:42,600
Speaker 11: many of those people, you know, I have been to

1674
01:36:42,800 --> 01:36:46,559
Speaker 11: where they are and in terrible condition to refugee camps

1675
01:36:47,800 --> 01:36:51,160
Speaker 11: in Iraqi court. It is done right, and yeah, people

1676
01:36:51,200 --> 01:36:53,960
Speaker 11: are aware of it. Every now and again someone writes

1677
01:36:54,000 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 11: something about it. But like those people are no closer

1678
01:36:59,360 --> 01:37:03,160
Speaker 11: to any form of healing. You know that they still

1679
01:37:03,240 --> 01:37:05,840
Speaker 11: kin't of even many cases have not returned to their homes.

1680
01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:08,200
Speaker 10: I mean, this is the thing in you know, particularly

1681
01:37:08,360 --> 01:37:13,479
Speaker 10: in the in the Publicska entity. You know, bosniactual living

1682
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 10: in that entity, they face material procarity on an everyday basis.

1683
01:37:18,760 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 10: They face threats, they face genocide, triumphalism every year when

1684
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:28,439
Speaker 10: the celebrates the bounding of the entity, all of these

1685
01:37:28,680 --> 01:37:32,519
Speaker 10: everyday violences don't go away because of a film. And

1686
01:37:32,640 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 10: I think that Bosniacs that I have come to know

1687
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:40,719
Speaker 10: in living in the entity of the public Aska really

1688
01:37:41,560 --> 01:37:45,040
Speaker 10: carry that sense of we're dealing with shit every day.

1689
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:51,559
Speaker 10: Every day, we are facing material battles, and we're doing

1690
01:37:51,600 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 10: it alone most of the time. So yeah, it's very

1691
01:37:56,160 --> 01:38:00,880
Speaker 10: difficult to put an optimistic, hopeful twist on on these things.

1692
01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 6: Yeah, I remember I was one year later than you

1693
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:09,880
Speaker 6: were there. I was also at the memorial in Serberditza Potochari,

1694
01:38:11,720 --> 01:38:14,000
Speaker 6: and I remember I'm not going to name a name,

1695
01:38:14,040 --> 01:38:15,880
Speaker 6: but there was someone who was living in the area

1696
01:38:16,120 --> 01:38:20,639
Speaker 6: who spoke to us, and someone from my group wanted

1697
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:23,680
Speaker 6: to film that. And I remember that the men was

1698
01:38:23,840 --> 01:38:27,479
Speaker 6: very very adamant that, hey, I do not want to

1699
01:38:27,560 --> 01:38:28,040
Speaker 6: be filmed.

1700
01:38:29,200 --> 01:38:33,080
Speaker 7: I already need to walk these streets. That is enough.

1701
01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 6: You should have asked for permission. I also remember like

1702
01:38:37,880 --> 01:38:41,280
Speaker 6: put in posters when walking through through Cerebit nizza and

1703
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:46,400
Speaker 6: on certain windows. Yeah yeah, yeah, But I also want

1704
01:38:46,439 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 6: to cut in with something else, because after James mentioned

1705
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:52,800
Speaker 6: that other countries were prosecuting as well, I quickly googled something.

1706
01:38:53,640 --> 01:38:59,720
Speaker 6: Apparently Italy has already named a suspect in the investigation. Interesting, Yes,

1707
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:04,560
Speaker 6: now eighty year old man. Yeah, yeah, who was a

1708
01:39:04,880 --> 01:39:08,600
Speaker 6: truck driver. Yes, this is something that that had come up.

1709
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:11,200
Speaker 6: When I was writing everything.

1710
01:39:12,080 --> 01:39:15,120
Speaker 11: I had assumed that this was something that was extremely

1711
01:39:16,240 --> 01:39:19,400
Speaker 11: I don't know, expensive, I suppose just because it's so

1712
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 11: fucked up and that yeah, like it's that once it

1713
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,280
Speaker 11: was someone who they're eighty now would have been fifty

1714
01:39:26,320 --> 01:39:29,320
Speaker 11: at the time, so someone who was not young, and

1715
01:39:29,920 --> 01:39:33,760
Speaker 11: I had a relatively working class profession, like it's it's

1716
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:36,519
Speaker 11: that's that just isn't the profile I had in my head,

1717
01:39:37,479 --> 01:39:39,040
Speaker 11: and I just wanted if you knew any more about

1718
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:40,479
Speaker 11: developments in the case that might like.

1719
01:39:40,880 --> 01:39:44,679
Speaker 10: I mean, to be really honest, I don't have much

1720
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:50,120
Speaker 10: more to contribute in terms of that of the suspect

1721
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:54,920
Speaker 10: and what this what's going on? Yeah, you know, I

1722
01:39:55,040 --> 01:39:59,280
Speaker 10: think it was he was summoned to testify last week.

1723
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,840
Speaker 10: I think were going to tetify on the eleventh, or

1724
01:40:03,520 --> 01:40:06,880
Speaker 10: maybe the ninth. I think maybe the ninth, but I

1725
01:40:08,080 --> 01:40:12,040
Speaker 10: haven't heard anything beyond that. So I mean, in terms

1726
01:40:12,080 --> 01:40:14,200
Speaker 10: of what you were saying about the profile of the suspect,

1727
01:40:14,760 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 10: I mean, yes, on the one hand, it goes against

1728
01:40:16,920 --> 01:40:21,560
Speaker 10: the whole idea that it was wealthy tourists only. But

1729
01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:29,519
Speaker 10: let's also remember that in terms of domestic participation, there

1730
01:40:29,680 --> 01:40:34,879
Speaker 10: was a lot of capital to be gained by serving

1731
01:40:35,920 --> 01:40:41,200
Speaker 10: the publica Sakska project. I mean, you had everything from

1732
01:40:42,080 --> 01:40:49,760
Speaker 10: civilian Serb civilian truck drivers who helped to deport civilians

1733
01:40:50,720 --> 01:40:54,360
Speaker 10: Bosnia activilians. You had Serb civilians who were hired to

1734
01:40:54,720 --> 01:40:59,120
Speaker 10: dig secondary and tertiary graves, mass graves. There was an

1735
01:40:59,280 --> 01:41:05,320
Speaker 10: array of positions capital that was created for people who

1736
01:41:05,479 --> 01:41:09,960
Speaker 10: had very little and I think that's important to bear

1737
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 10: to bear in mind. Obviously that's what that's in reference

1738
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:17,640
Speaker 10: to the domestic to the participation of civilians within.

1739
01:41:17,520 --> 01:41:18,559
Speaker 9: The former Yo Slavia.

1740
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:23,759
Speaker 10: What the story behind this Italian truck driver is remains

1741
01:41:23,760 --> 01:41:26,679
Speaker 10: to be seen, but that's where my mind goes when

1742
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,679
Speaker 10: you were talking about, you know, his profile.

1743
01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:30,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean there is there are things to be

1744
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 11: gained internationally through that same participation in that same project, right,

1745
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 11: like not necessarily like from the Serbian project, but like

1746
01:41:41,439 --> 01:41:44,360
Speaker 11: in terms of one's status in groups, in terms of

1747
01:41:44,760 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 11: like social capital on the right. I guess we shouldn't

1748
01:41:48,280 --> 01:41:51,840
Speaker 11: ignore that. I don't maybe it should just remind us,

1749
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:55,840
Speaker 11: like especially these struggles can all seem so disparate, right,

1750
01:41:55,920 --> 01:41:58,519
Speaker 11: but they're not. Like the struggle against a domestic right

1751
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:02,439
Speaker 11: in Italy was basically the same thing as the or

1752
01:42:02,439 --> 01:42:05,000
Speaker 11: at least you know, shared the shared shared an enemy

1753
01:42:05,320 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 11: with the attempts to fight back against this genocidal violence there.

1754
01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:16,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it is important to keep in mind that.

1755
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:20,120
Speaker 6: I think when we all initially thought of the type

1756
01:42:20,160 --> 01:42:22,800
Speaker 6: of person who would do something like this and pay

1757
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:25,360
Speaker 6: money for this, we all had an image in our

1758
01:42:25,439 --> 01:42:29,479
Speaker 6: head of the type that type, and I do think

1759
01:42:29,520 --> 01:42:32,479
Speaker 6: it's very important to then take into account that it

1760
01:42:32,600 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 6: can also be everyday people who are who can be

1761
01:42:37,600 --> 01:42:39,360
Speaker 6: capable and willing to do something like this.

1762
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:41,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1763
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:45,040
Speaker 6: Also another suspect who is not named but is mentioned

1764
01:42:45,040 --> 01:42:45,799
Speaker 6: in this article.

1765
01:42:46,720 --> 01:42:47,160
Speaker 9: It's from the.

1766
01:42:47,200 --> 01:42:50,759
Speaker 6: Study with times just to be transparent. It's a banker

1767
01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:54,400
Speaker 6: and so fits a lot better with like the image

1768
01:42:54,439 --> 01:42:55,280
Speaker 6: we had in our heads.

1769
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1770
01:42:56,600 --> 01:43:00,720
Speaker 10: Yeah, something to add about the documentary's context. One of

1771
01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:06,080
Speaker 10: the people who testified in the documentary is a man

1772
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:11,960
Speaker 10: called Eddin Subashich, who was a former Bosnian intelligence agent.

1773
01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:15,160
Speaker 10: Now the reason why I'm bringing him up is because

1774
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:20,120
Speaker 10: he actually says I believe he says it in the

1775
01:43:20,160 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 10: documentary or he may have said it in a subsequent

1776
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:27,200
Speaker 10: interview or double check. He has said that himself and

1777
01:43:27,400 --> 01:43:33,479
Speaker 10: the Bosnian Intelligence Agency first informed the Italian Intelligence Service

1778
01:43:33,760 --> 01:43:37,759
Speaker 10: about what they believed what they had evidence was happening

1779
01:43:38,000 --> 01:43:42,680
Speaker 10: in terms of the Sarierisafari. They first informed them in

1780
01:43:43,120 --> 01:43:46,439
Speaker 10: nineteen ninety three, and then a few months later, in

1781
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:50,840
Speaker 10: March nineteen ninety four, the Italian Intelligence Service informed them

1782
01:43:50,880 --> 01:43:53,880
Speaker 10: that the matter had been closed. So that's just some

1783
01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:59,600
Speaker 10: interesting context to sort of think about in terms of

1784
01:44:00,120 --> 01:44:03,240
Speaker 10: perhaps some of the skepticism and cynicism that Bosniacs have

1785
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 10: about where this is going and the potential for change

1786
01:44:08,240 --> 01:44:09,599
Speaker 10: that could come as a result.

1787
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:15,120
Speaker 11: Are there projects into solidarity with the people and the

1788
01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:18,120
Speaker 11: tendance of people who survive this you think people can

1789
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:18,720
Speaker 11: engage with.

1790
01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:26,440
Speaker 10: I think that I would encourage people to follow Bosnians

1791
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 10: for Palestine on Instagram because what they are doing is

1792
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:34,720
Speaker 10: that they are being very intentional in highlighting the commonalities

1793
01:44:34,880 --> 01:44:42,599
Speaker 10: between the violence against Palestinians and what Bosniacs in particular

1794
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:45,400
Speaker 10: endured during the war and genocide.

1795
01:44:46,120 --> 01:44:46,360
Speaker 9: Cool.

1796
01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:55,439
Speaker 10: I would also point people towards a very interesting grassroots

1797
01:44:55,880 --> 01:44:58,920
Speaker 10: I don't know exactly what they are in terms of

1798
01:44:58,960 --> 01:45:02,040
Speaker 10: are there non I don't know if they're an association

1799
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:09,400
Speaker 10: or just a grassroots initiative. They're called it's a Bosnian title.

1800
01:45:09,479 --> 01:45:15,360
Speaker 10: They're called oshtra nola o str a new word m

1801
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:20,599
Speaker 10: u la, and they are based in the Publicska entity.

1802
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:26,160
Speaker 10: But they are a group of young activists from all

1803
01:45:26,439 --> 01:45:30,240
Speaker 10: ethnic backgrounds, all of the three major ethnic groups in

1804
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:35,560
Speaker 10: Bosnias that Serb Croat in Bosnia, who take an explicitly

1805
01:45:35,960 --> 01:45:40,679
Speaker 10: anti capitalist approach to their work, so they are very interesting.

1806
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:42,760
Speaker 10: And the fact that they're doing what they're doing to

1807
01:45:42,880 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 10: fight against the corruption of the PUBLICABSKA authorities and ethno nationalism,

1808
01:45:50,479 --> 01:45:53,600
Speaker 10: and they're doing that within the entity, I think it

1809
01:45:53,760 --> 01:45:56,320
Speaker 10: is really quite extraordinary. So you can also follow them

1810
01:45:56,479 --> 01:45:59,880
Speaker 10: on Instagram and keep up to date with what they're doing.

1811
01:46:00,000 --> 01:46:02,920
Speaker 10: I mean, they're always there's always either a march happening

1812
01:46:03,560 --> 01:46:07,559
Speaker 10: in solidarity with Palestine, or there was recently a reading

1813
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:10,240
Speaker 10: of names of all the murdered children of Sarah or

1814
01:46:10,720 --> 01:46:14,320
Speaker 10: alongside all of the murdered children of Gaza in the

1815
01:46:14,880 --> 01:46:19,160
Speaker 10: recent wave of the genocide in Gaza. So there's a

1816
01:46:19,200 --> 01:46:23,040
Speaker 10: lot of very interesting stuff happening which people from all

1817
01:46:23,080 --> 01:46:25,519
Speaker 10: around the world can at least follow on social media.

1818
01:46:26,200 --> 01:46:29,360
Speaker 10: And if you're in or around Bosnia then of course

1819
01:46:29,439 --> 01:46:31,599
Speaker 10: you can meet some of these people in person, which

1820
01:46:31,680 --> 01:46:32,000
Speaker 10: is great.

1821
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:32,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1822
01:46:33,640 --> 01:46:37,120
Speaker 6: Yes, for closing thoughts, I was splicitly surprised to read

1823
01:46:37,160 --> 01:46:41,519
Speaker 6: that they have suspects, so I'll take this win. And

1824
01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:46,679
Speaker 6: I also feel I should have seen this earlier. But Georgia,

1825
01:46:46,800 --> 01:46:50,360
Speaker 6: thank you for for coming on and having a chat

1826
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:52,960
Speaker 6: with us about horrifying stuff.

1827
01:46:53,640 --> 01:46:57,080
Speaker 9: Thank you for inviting me our pleasure let's go.

1828
01:46:57,160 --> 01:47:01,599
Speaker 7: Pet puppy, we get a feed white chickens.

1829
01:47:03,720 --> 01:47:20,400
Speaker 12: All right, Welcome to it could Happen here podcasts about

1830
01:47:20,439 --> 01:47:23,519
Speaker 12: things falling apart and how to put them back together again.

1831
01:47:24,640 --> 01:47:30,280
Speaker 12: I'm your host, Mia Wong. Over the course of about

1832
01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:35,120
Speaker 12: a month, the general strike went from a pipe dream

1833
01:47:35,320 --> 01:47:38,559
Speaker 12: that even the most optimistic organizers didn't think could happen

1834
01:47:38,720 --> 01:47:46,000
Speaker 12: until potentially maybe twenty twenty eight to something that happened.

1835
01:47:46,040 --> 01:47:46,160
Speaker 8: Here.

1836
01:47:47,680 --> 01:47:52,280
Speaker 12: We saw a one day general strike in Minneapolis, and

1837
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:57,840
Speaker 12: everything is different now. People from SEIU are calling for

1838
01:47:58,000 --> 01:48:04,559
Speaker 12: general strikes. It's become a demand, it's become a tactic,

1839
01:48:04,640 --> 01:48:07,719
Speaker 12: and it's become a term that is on the tongues

1840
01:48:07,840 --> 01:48:10,320
Speaker 12: of people who never would dare speak of it before.

1841
01:48:11,400 --> 01:48:14,280
Speaker 12: And on this show, we are going to talk about

1842
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:18,520
Speaker 12: the history of general strikes, how they happen, how they're organized,

1843
01:48:19,720 --> 01:48:24,320
Speaker 12: how they succeed, how they fail, and what the contemporary

1844
01:48:24,439 --> 01:48:26,560
Speaker 12: history of the tactic looks like.

1845
01:48:27,880 --> 01:48:28,080
Speaker 2: Now.

1846
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:33,880
Speaker 12: When I originally planned this first episode, I was going

1847
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:39,320
Speaker 12: to do a overview of about one hundred years of

1848
01:48:40,240 --> 01:48:42,360
Speaker 12: the history of general strikes to try to get us

1849
01:48:42,560 --> 01:48:45,559
Speaker 12: roughly to the modern era. And then as soon as

1850
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:47,479
Speaker 12: I said, well, not as soon as I started writing

1851
01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:50,400
Speaker 12: that deeper into the process than it should have been,

1852
01:48:50,479 --> 01:48:52,920
Speaker 12: I realized there was absolutely no way I could cover

1853
01:48:53,040 --> 01:48:54,440
Speaker 12: one hundred years of general.

1854
01:48:54,240 --> 01:48:55,280
Speaker 5: Strikes in one episode.

1855
01:48:56,479 --> 01:49:01,160
Speaker 12: What I kept coming back to was one specific strike,

1856
01:49:02,280 --> 01:49:05,920
Speaker 12: a strike that most of you have never heard of,

1857
01:49:07,439 --> 01:49:10,719
Speaker 12: so the general strike in Shanghai in nineteen twenty five,

1858
01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:15,720
Speaker 12: what became known as the May the thirtieth Movement. I

1859
01:49:15,840 --> 01:49:20,240
Speaker 12: want to begin here because intellectually most of you have

1860
01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:24,479
Speaker 12: never heard of it. Emotionally you already know everything about it.

1861
01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:25,720
Speaker 3: Now.

1862
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:29,240
Speaker 12: I have written about this strike before. It was, in

1863
01:49:29,360 --> 01:49:32,920
Speaker 12: fact the first thing I ever wrote about for Behind

1864
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:36,679
Speaker 12: the Bastards, an episode about a Chinese warlord named Jong

1865
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:41,840
Speaker 12: zhong Chong. But about a quarter of those episodes were

1866
01:49:42,080 --> 01:49:47,000
Speaker 12: about what became the May the thirtieth Movement. And so

1867
01:49:47,400 --> 01:49:51,080
Speaker 12: I am going to recap a little bit of what

1868
01:49:51,200 --> 01:49:53,800
Speaker 12: I talked about in that episode and talk about some

1869
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:58,880
Speaker 12: different stuff. And yeah, we're going to get you introduced

1870
01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:03,800
Speaker 12: to how you get a general strike, and you know

1871
01:50:04,120 --> 01:50:08,160
Speaker 12: how the course of these things can go. With a

1872
01:50:08,280 --> 01:50:13,280
Speaker 12: strike that will look shockingly familiar to anyone who has

1873
01:50:13,360 --> 01:50:15,479
Speaker 12: lived through this year, which is to say, this is

1874
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:20,799
Speaker 12: a strike that starts when an occupying army has taken

1875
01:50:20,920 --> 01:50:25,519
Speaker 12: over a city and starts fucking killing people. So a

1876
01:50:25,640 --> 01:50:28,360
Speaker 12: little bit of background about what is going on in

1877
01:50:28,520 --> 01:50:31,880
Speaker 12: China in the nineteen twenties. Nineteen twenty five is in

1878
01:50:31,960 --> 01:50:34,679
Speaker 12: the middle of what is called the warlord period in China,

1879
01:50:34,760 --> 01:50:38,479
Speaker 12: which is a period where I don't go listen to

1880
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:42,280
Speaker 12: the Bastard's episode. The short version of this is that

1881
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:48,639
Speaker 12: after the nineteen eleven revolution that had overthrown this Chinese

1882
01:50:48,680 --> 01:50:51,879
Speaker 12: imperial system, China became split between a bunch of warlords

1883
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:54,160
Speaker 12: composed out of different sort of parts of the armies.

1884
01:50:55,320 --> 01:50:59,880
Speaker 12: Now also in this period, large parts of China are

1885
01:51:00,120 --> 01:51:04,519
Speaker 12: under the direct control of foreign occupiers. These are countries

1886
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:08,120
Speaker 12: like Japan, the UK, France, Russia. I think there's an

1887
01:51:08,120 --> 01:51:13,679
Speaker 12: American concession sort of in there somewhere, and these countries

1888
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:18,720
Speaker 12: just own parts of China and for our purposes, they

1889
01:51:18,840 --> 01:51:23,760
Speaker 12: also own parts of Shanghai and these things both the

1890
01:51:23,920 --> 01:51:26,880
Speaker 12: territories they occupy sometimes literally, you know, the occupation is

1891
01:51:27,320 --> 01:51:30,080
Speaker 12: they own a rail line. When I say they own

1892
01:51:30,120 --> 01:51:32,080
Speaker 12: a rail line, it's not just a company or even

1893
01:51:32,120 --> 01:51:34,959
Speaker 12: the country owning the rail line. They physically own the territory,

1894
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:40,519
Speaker 12: so it's theirs. Like this rail line belongs to Japan,

1895
01:51:41,080 --> 01:51:43,920
Speaker 12: and so the land around the rail line belongs to Japan,

1896
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:46,360
Speaker 12: and they can enforce their laws in it. And this

1897
01:51:46,600 --> 01:51:49,680
Speaker 12: is how it works. Also in Shanghai, inside of these

1898
01:51:49,720 --> 01:51:53,760
Speaker 12: concessions there is an armed occupation. And in Shanghai there

1899
01:51:53,800 --> 01:51:58,440
Speaker 12: are British or friends or Japanese police and military personnel

1900
01:51:58,479 --> 01:52:01,000
Speaker 12: there who do law enforcement and we'll just kill you

1901
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 12: where my dear listener, have we seen this before? I

1902
01:52:05,920 --> 01:52:10,200
Speaker 12: leave that as an exercise to the reader. Listener, Yes,

1903
01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 12: I guess, I guess you're the listener. Now, this state

1904
01:52:14,479 --> 01:52:19,240
Speaker 12: of affairs came to a head in May nineteen twenty

1905
01:52:19,320 --> 01:52:23,720
Speaker 12: five when a Japanese foreman was meeting with Chinese union

1906
01:52:23,840 --> 01:52:27,719
Speaker 12: organizers and what was basically supposed to be a contract

1907
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:31,519
Speaker 12: negotiation session. There's a team of Japanese foremen and business

1908
01:52:31,560 --> 01:52:36,200
Speaker 12: people there and a group of Chinese union organizers, and

1909
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:40,920
Speaker 12: the details of what exactly happened are very very sketchy,

1910
01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:45,360
Speaker 12: but a brawl broke out, and the conclusion of the

1911
01:52:45,479 --> 01:52:50,080
Speaker 12: brawl was that a Japanese foreman killed a fairly well

1912
01:52:50,200 --> 01:52:55,520
Speaker 12: known local union leader. Now, the police had also arrested

1913
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:57,960
Speaker 12: several of the workers who have been in the negotiations,

1914
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:02,920
Speaker 12: and continued to hold them even after a massive demonstration

1915
01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:06,760
Speaker 12: for the Chinese organizer who'd been killed funeral so on

1916
01:53:06,880 --> 01:53:10,040
Speaker 12: May the thirtieth, protesters gathered outside of a police station

1917
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:13,600
Speaker 12: run by the British to demand the release of their comrades.

1918
01:53:15,280 --> 01:53:20,000
Speaker 12: This set off a climac to confrontation that changed the

1919
01:53:20,080 --> 01:53:24,320
Speaker 12: face of Chinese history forever. The British open fire on

1920
01:53:24,439 --> 01:53:29,680
Speaker 12: the crowd killed ten people and wounded fifty more. Now

1921
01:53:30,479 --> 01:53:34,120
Speaker 12: half a decade ago, when I first wrote about this

1922
01:53:34,479 --> 01:53:39,040
Speaker 12: for a Cool Zone, I read a quote from the

1923
01:53:39,120 --> 01:53:43,400
Speaker 12: great Chinese author and anarchist bad Jin. This is quoted

1924
01:53:43,479 --> 01:53:47,000
Speaker 12: from author Waldron's book from Warden Nationalism, China's Turning Point

1925
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:51,280
Speaker 12: nineteen twenty forty nineteen twenty five, and I want to

1926
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:54,360
Speaker 12: return to it now for reasons that I think will

1927
01:53:54,400 --> 01:53:58,479
Speaker 12: immediately become a parent. This is about a student who

1928
01:53:58,560 --> 01:54:03,360
Speaker 12: witnessed the killings at the entrance to Union Road. He

1929
01:54:03,479 --> 01:54:05,760
Speaker 12: saw the child who had been killed a short while

1930
01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:10,280
Speaker 12: before he thought about half an hour ago, the crowd

1931
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:13,200
Speaker 12: was marching peacefully towards the police station to ask the

1932
01:54:13,320 --> 01:54:17,280
Speaker 12: police to set free students who had been unjustly arrested.

1933
01:54:18,280 --> 01:54:21,599
Speaker 12: They thought the police were human beings, endowed with reason

1934
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:25,439
Speaker 12: and human sympathy, that human blood flowed in their veins.

1935
01:54:26,160 --> 01:54:29,120
Speaker 12: They thought that uniforms and weapons could not have destroyed

1936
01:54:29,160 --> 01:54:33,879
Speaker 12: their human nature. But reality proved they were bloodthirsty beasts.

1937
01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:37,960
Speaker 12: On the most crowded street of the city, they deliberately

1938
01:54:38,040 --> 01:54:42,200
Speaker 12: slaughtered unarmed people. For this, there was no precedent in

1939
01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:47,240
Speaker 12: Chinese history. The imperialist oppression that had endured for so

1940
01:54:47,440 --> 01:54:50,280
Speaker 12: many years ached like a deep wound in his heart.

1941
01:54:51,160 --> 01:54:55,360
Speaker 12: He struggled inwardly. He felt the time for patience was over.

1942
01:54:56,440 --> 01:54:59,240
Speaker 12: He felt he wanted to spill his blood, to sacrifice

1943
01:54:59,280 --> 01:55:03,200
Speaker 12: his young life, that he might show that not all

1944
01:55:03,280 --> 01:55:06,880
Speaker 12: among his people were lambs that allowed themselves to be

1945
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:10,480
Speaker 12: led without resistance to slaughter. He looked again at the

1946
01:55:10,560 --> 01:55:13,920
Speaker 12: corpse of the murdered child. His eyes shone with fire.

1947
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:17,320
Speaker 12: His whole body began to burn, as though on fire,

1948
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:27,800
Speaker 12: his heart be violently. You, dear listener, understand this. When

1949
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:31,520
Speaker 12: I first quoted this passage in twenty twenty one, it

1950
01:55:31,720 --> 01:55:36,400
Speaker 12: was about George Floyd. Now it's about Renee Good and

1951
01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:43,480
Speaker 12: Alex Pretty you understand the horror, the suffering, the rage,

1952
01:55:44,440 --> 01:55:50,400
Speaker 12: the overwhelming fire to do something. You understand that they

1953
01:55:50,440 --> 01:56:06,840
Speaker 12: are like us, and you understand why they fought. What

1954
01:56:07,080 --> 01:56:12,880
Speaker 12: followed was the largest to that point general strike in

1955
01:56:13,000 --> 01:56:17,640
Speaker 12: the history of Shanghai. Two hundred thousand people walked off

1956
01:56:17,720 --> 01:56:20,560
Speaker 12: the job almost immediately in the first wave of strikes.

1957
01:56:21,480 --> 01:56:25,200
Speaker 12: The strike spread to almost every major city in China

1958
01:56:25,840 --> 01:56:30,160
Speaker 12: in some form or another. Massive student protests began tire

1959
01:56:30,280 --> 01:56:35,040
Speaker 12: cities Roses one, two hundred and fifty thousand people went

1960
01:56:35,080 --> 01:56:39,720
Speaker 12: on strike. In Hong Kong, students, workers, business owners, and

1961
01:56:39,840 --> 01:56:44,920
Speaker 12: gangsters stood precariously as one to drive out the armed

1962
01:56:44,960 --> 01:56:50,080
Speaker 12: men occupying their cities. In an instant, the world changed.

1963
01:56:51,600 --> 01:56:55,120
Speaker 12: Things that were impossible the day before suddenly began commonplace.

1964
01:56:55,920 --> 01:57:00,640
Speaker 12: People flooded the streets, they were attacked by cops, fought back,

1965
01:57:01,840 --> 01:57:08,920
Speaker 12: and for three months they held on. Now this was

1966
01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:15,800
Speaker 12: a much rougher time than even contemporary twenty twenty six America.

1967
01:57:17,320 --> 01:57:19,240
Speaker 12: We are in a little bit going to get to

1968
01:57:19,360 --> 01:57:21,560
Speaker 12: the part where a bunch of people's heads get put

1969
01:57:21,600 --> 01:57:26,480
Speaker 12: on spikes by the government. And you know, unlike nineteen

1970
01:57:26,520 --> 01:57:31,360
Speaker 12: twenty five Shanghai, for example, American cities are not, contrary

1971
01:57:31,480 --> 01:57:34,320
Speaker 12: to the beliefs of a significant portion of the American

1972
01:57:34,360 --> 01:57:41,600
Speaker 12: conservative population, run by networks of organized crime who control

1973
01:57:42,320 --> 01:57:46,920
Speaker 12: every facet of political life and also economic life and

1974
01:57:47,000 --> 01:57:49,960
Speaker 12: also social life, to the extent that if you're a

1975
01:57:50,080 --> 01:57:54,040
Speaker 12: union organizer in nineteen twenty Shanghai, you are effectively a

1976
01:57:54,200 --> 01:57:57,760
Speaker 12: mob organizer, both in the sense that you probably have

1977
01:57:57,920 --> 01:57:59,840
Speaker 12: to belong to one of the organizations and to the

1978
01:58:00,080 --> 01:58:04,240
Speaker 12: extent that the people you are actually organizing this time

1979
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:07,720
Speaker 12: are like you're organizing the mob guys who bring in

1980
01:58:07,880 --> 01:58:12,040
Speaker 12: workers to serve as the mirgant worker population. This is

1981
01:58:12,080 --> 01:58:15,080
Speaker 12: also actually an important aspect of the strikes nineteen twenty five,

1982
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:17,640
Speaker 12: which is that much of the labor population in Shanghai

1983
01:58:18,200 --> 01:58:20,520
Speaker 12: are mirgrant workers have been brought in from other parts

1984
01:58:20,560 --> 01:58:24,360
Speaker 12: of the country by organized crime. Now obviously that's not

1985
01:58:25,880 --> 01:58:29,360
Speaker 12: it is not really how migrant labor works in the

1986
01:58:29,480 --> 01:58:33,120
Speaker 12: United States, but you know, to some extent, the pressures

1987
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:36,440
Speaker 12: of the labor discipline are very similar in that right,

1988
01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:39,080
Speaker 12: the threat that has held over the heads of migrant

1989
01:58:39,120 --> 01:58:42,840
Speaker 12: workers is that armed men will come in the night

1990
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:46,000
Speaker 12: for you. And right now what we are witnessing is

1991
01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:49,080
Speaker 12: the armed men coming into the night. But you know,

1992
01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:51,240
Speaker 12: as much as I talk about sort of the differences

1993
01:58:51,320 --> 01:58:56,120
Speaker 12: between these movements, I think the immediate question for our

1994
01:58:56,240 --> 01:59:01,720
Speaker 12: purposes is are there things that we can learn from

1995
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:08,280
Speaker 12: this movement? And I think the answer is yes. But

1996
01:59:08,360 --> 01:59:11,080
Speaker 12: in order to get to the what can we learn

1997
01:59:11,160 --> 01:59:14,000
Speaker 12: from this? We have to talk a bit about how

1998
01:59:14,080 --> 01:59:16,440
Speaker 12: the movement collapsed. So I said that the movement held

1999
01:59:16,480 --> 01:59:19,120
Speaker 12: on for about three months. That was in Shanghai. The

2000
01:59:19,240 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 12: history of some of the other cities is different, and

2001
01:59:22,160 --> 01:59:25,280
Speaker 12: we kind of don't have time to. For example, divert

2002
01:59:25,440 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 12: talk about general strike in Hong Kong, where the primary

2003
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:32,240
Speaker 12: method that people used was they simply left the city

2004
01:59:32,880 --> 01:59:37,640
Speaker 12: and went back home, which solved some of the problems

2005
01:59:37,680 --> 01:59:39,880
Speaker 12: that we're going to be talking about in a little bit.

2006
01:59:40,640 --> 01:59:46,680
Speaker 12: But okay, in Shanghai, what happened to this movement and

2007
01:59:47,920 --> 01:59:51,560
Speaker 12: why did it fall apart? So I think there are

2008
01:59:52,040 --> 01:59:54,520
Speaker 12: roughly three factors, and I think the first two are

2009
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:56,760
Speaker 12: actually more important than the third one, which might be

2010
01:59:56,840 --> 01:59:59,600
Speaker 12: surprising when we get to them. But the first two

2011
01:59:59,680 --> 02:00:03,400
Speaker 12: factors were people being able to eat and the pressure

2012
02:00:03,480 --> 02:00:08,920
Speaker 12: that that put on the unions, and secondarily, betrayal from

2013
02:00:08,920 --> 02:00:11,560
Speaker 12: the business elites that they had allied with to get

2014
02:00:11,600 --> 02:00:14,520
Speaker 12: the strikes to work. And the third is pere repression.

2015
02:00:14,920 --> 02:00:17,800
Speaker 12: And the scale of the peer repression here is astonishing.

2016
02:00:17,840 --> 02:00:19,320
Speaker 12: I mean some of the like one of the guys

2017
02:00:19,360 --> 02:00:24,400
Speaker 12: who runs this strike is just executed by the state. Again,

2018
02:00:24,440 --> 02:00:26,280
Speaker 12: we're going, I'm promising we're gonna get to the heads

2019
02:00:26,320 --> 02:00:27,040
Speaker 12: on pikes in a bit.

2020
02:00:28,480 --> 02:00:29,879
Speaker 3: But the repression isn't.

2021
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:33,640
Speaker 12: What killed the strike. It was the problem of how

2022
02:00:33,720 --> 02:00:35,720
Speaker 12: do people eat? And it was the pressure from the

2023
02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:38,520
Speaker 12: business elite. So we're going to talk about the business

2024
02:00:38,560 --> 02:00:41,560
Speaker 12: elite first. Now, when I say the business elite here

2025
02:00:42,200 --> 02:00:44,800
Speaker 12: in the early days of the movement, and this is

2026
02:00:44,840 --> 02:00:48,080
Speaker 12: a tension that's going to sort of haunt the Chinese

2027
02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:52,240
Speaker 12: Nationalist Party for its entire existence until it splits from

2028
02:00:52,240 --> 02:00:55,800
Speaker 12: the Communist completely and even later than that. They're in

2029
02:00:55,920 --> 02:01:00,040
Speaker 12: a very very uneasy alliance with left wing student and

2030
02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:03,800
Speaker 12: workers who are rapidly becoming left wing, because this is

2031
02:01:03,800 --> 02:01:08,320
Speaker 12: also a city that was not enormously politicized until now

2032
02:01:08,400 --> 02:01:11,880
Speaker 12: and suddenly becomes politicized in ways it seemed impossible like

2033
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:15,720
Speaker 12: a few years before. But there's a tension between them

2034
02:01:15,720 --> 02:01:19,720
Speaker 12: because initially these sort of patriotic business owners are really

2035
02:01:19,800 --> 02:01:22,360
Speaker 12: really pissed off that the foreign occupiers are murdering people

2036
02:01:22,400 --> 02:01:25,800
Speaker 12: in their city, and sort of nationalists and communist leaders

2037
02:01:25,800 --> 02:01:28,920
Speaker 12: are able to sort of broker alliances with them, and

2038
02:01:28,960 --> 02:01:31,280
Speaker 12: they're able to broke her alliances with organized crime, which

2039
02:01:31,320 --> 02:01:34,280
Speaker 12: is less important for our purposes. I cannot emphasize enough

2040
02:01:34,680 --> 02:01:37,200
Speaker 12: how important the organized crime people are in the history,

2041
02:01:37,560 --> 02:01:40,120
Speaker 12: to the extent that like Chen Kai Shek, who you

2042
02:01:40,520 --> 02:01:43,800
Speaker 12: may know as like the leader of the Nationalist Party

2043
02:01:43,800 --> 02:01:45,840
Speaker 12: and the guy who's eventually going to run Taiwan after

2044
02:01:45,960 --> 02:01:49,600
Speaker 12: losing the Civil war, Chenkai Shek was an organized crime

2045
02:01:49,680 --> 02:01:52,920
Speaker 12: guy like he was in the Green Gang, So, like

2046
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:57,360
Speaker 12: you know, very important to their story, less important to

2047
02:01:57,440 --> 02:01:59,880
Speaker 12: our story. But they act in a very similar way

2048
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:03,320
Speaker 12: shoot the business owners, which is that in the beginning,

2049
02:02:03,480 --> 02:02:05,640
Speaker 12: and this is something that we saw in Minneapolis too,

2050
02:02:05,800 --> 02:02:08,360
Speaker 12: tweing their one day general strike, which is that a

2051
02:02:08,440 --> 02:02:11,000
Speaker 12: lot of business owners, either out of you know, just

2052
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:17,960
Speaker 12: actual genuine rage and grief over just the raw fucking

2053
02:02:18,160 --> 02:02:21,440
Speaker 12: horror of these monsters grabbing people from their homes and

2054
02:02:21,480 --> 02:02:25,120
Speaker 12: shooting people in the streets, cooperated and shut their businesses

2055
02:02:25,200 --> 02:02:27,760
Speaker 12: down for the day. Now obviously there are other business

2056
02:02:27,760 --> 02:02:33,160
Speaker 12: owners who do this because they are producers? Am I

2057
02:02:33,280 --> 02:02:36,880
Speaker 12: allowed to say that? They look that side and were like,

2058
02:02:36,960 --> 02:02:38,680
Speaker 12: it doesn't take a weatherman to see which way the

2059
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:41,920
Speaker 12: winds are blowing, right, you know, they saw what was

2060
02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:46,120
Speaker 12: going on, and we're like, Okay, either my workers aren't

2061
02:02:46,120 --> 02:02:49,840
Speaker 12: going to show up, or if I don't publicly support this,

2062
02:02:51,400 --> 02:02:54,160
Speaker 12: it's gonna get real fucked for me, because everyone else

2063
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:57,120
Speaker 12: around does. And that meant that there was a lot

2064
02:02:57,160 --> 02:03:01,040
Speaker 12: of cooperation from businesses. But we also saw very quickly

2065
02:03:01,120 --> 02:03:04,360
Speaker 12: after like a kind of a whole bunch of businesses

2066
02:03:05,200 --> 02:03:08,920
Speaker 12: and like sports organizations too, like signed a thing that

2067
02:03:09,120 --> 02:03:11,600
Speaker 12: was like, ah, we need to restore order, do do

2068
02:03:11,720 --> 02:03:15,160
Speaker 12: do do do maybe and the occupation, but also please

2069
02:03:15,360 --> 02:03:18,240
Speaker 12: stop causing disruptions protesters.

2070
02:03:29,040 --> 02:03:30,840
Speaker 5: Now, in the Chinese.

2071
02:03:30,520 --> 02:03:33,000
Speaker 12: Case, what we see as the strike goes on is

2072
02:03:33,080 --> 02:03:37,720
Speaker 12: that the business elites began to see the the strikes themselves,

2073
02:03:37,840 --> 02:03:40,560
Speaker 12: and the marches and the fighting with the police, and

2074
02:03:40,680 --> 02:03:43,120
Speaker 12: particularly the fact that they were also not making money

2075
02:03:43,160 --> 02:03:45,480
Speaker 12: and they were also putting their own money into keeping

2076
02:03:45,520 --> 02:03:50,240
Speaker 12: the strikes going as a problem because they are business

2077
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:52,240
Speaker 12: people and the only thing that they really care about

2078
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:55,720
Speaker 12: fundamentally is making money. There's a Marx line I wish

2079
02:03:55,760 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 12: I had here about like what the national character of

2080
02:03:58,920 --> 02:04:01,480
Speaker 12: Britain was, that it turned that it's only fundamental principle

2081
02:04:01,600 --> 02:04:04,360
Speaker 12: is land rent, and that that's like this, right, Like,

2082
02:04:04,440 --> 02:04:07,040
Speaker 12: at some point these people are like, okay, well, given

2083
02:04:07,080 --> 02:04:11,320
Speaker 12: the choice between imperialist occupation and me losing money and

2084
02:04:11,400 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 12: my workers gaining power, I will choose imperialist occupation. And

2085
02:04:14,840 --> 02:04:18,960
Speaker 12: this is something that in cross class movements like this, specifically,

2086
02:04:19,040 --> 02:04:21,000
Speaker 12: if you are trying to do a general strike, you're

2087
02:04:21,080 --> 02:04:23,560
Speaker 12: eventually going to have to deal with this, which is

2088
02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:28,920
Speaker 12: that a lot of particularly large businesses, and you know,

2089
02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:32,080
Speaker 12: some small business owners will fall in line with this too, right,

2090
02:04:32,600 --> 02:04:35,320
Speaker 12: will eventually get to a point where they're like, I

2091
02:04:35,360 --> 02:04:39,840
Speaker 12: would rather keep making money than you know, not have

2092
02:04:40,080 --> 02:04:43,440
Speaker 12: my neighbors taken away. And that is unbelievably fucking bleak.

2093
02:04:44,360 --> 02:04:47,280
Speaker 12: But that's you know, like that's one of the things

2094
02:04:47,320 --> 02:04:54,160
Speaker 12: that killed this general strike in China. And eventually, in

2095
02:04:54,320 --> 02:04:57,760
Speaker 12: the face of this, right, we come to the second problem,

2096
02:04:57,800 --> 02:05:01,120
Speaker 12: which that people needed to eat. So the union federation

2097
02:05:01,280 --> 02:05:03,960
Speaker 12: that's set up had been just sort of giving people

2098
02:05:04,080 --> 02:05:08,200
Speaker 12: money so that they could eat but they eventually start

2099
02:05:08,240 --> 02:05:09,840
Speaker 12: to run out of money, and they don't really have

2100
02:05:10,000 --> 02:05:13,800
Speaker 12: a way to organize the sort of production movement and

2101
02:05:13,920 --> 02:05:16,800
Speaker 12: logistics of providing ifone with food without relying on the

2102
02:05:16,880 --> 02:05:20,160
Speaker 12: bankrolling of those business owners. You know, this becomes a

2103
02:05:20,200 --> 02:05:23,040
Speaker 12: problem because it means that they're suddenly getting attacked by

2104
02:05:23,960 --> 02:05:26,240
Speaker 12: portions of the workers who aren't supposed to be their

2105
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:29,120
Speaker 12: base because they don't have food. And those people also

2106
02:05:29,240 --> 02:05:32,080
Speaker 12: just start like walking up the Chamber of Commerce meetings

2107
02:05:32,120 --> 02:05:34,120
Speaker 12: and walking in and beating up the Chamber of Commerce

2108
02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:37,200
Speaker 12: people for not paying them, and then like eating the

2109
02:05:37,240 --> 02:05:39,880
Speaker 12: banquet food the cheap room commerce is a great story

2110
02:05:40,760 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 12: in the book called Shanghai on Strike. While Elizabeth Ferry,

2111
02:05:44,120 --> 02:05:47,440
Speaker 12: who's the renowned scholar of Chinese labor history, about this

2112
02:05:48,040 --> 02:05:51,840
Speaker 12: very funny. There's lots of absolutely wild stories from this strike.

2113
02:05:52,440 --> 02:05:54,840
Speaker 12: What are the sort of recurring themes of this period

2114
02:05:54,880 --> 02:05:58,040
Speaker 12: of union organizing it? Again, this is a really rough time, right,

2115
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:02,320
Speaker 12: Imagine like gangster movie nineteen, like twenties New York, and

2116
02:06:02,520 --> 02:06:06,920
Speaker 12: like that's Shanghai, but like the gangs are way way,

2117
02:06:07,120 --> 02:06:11,080
Speaker 12: way way stronger. So like the way politics works to

2118
02:06:11,160 --> 02:06:13,760
Speaker 12: a large extent is that people beat the share out

2119
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:15,720
Speaker 12: of each other, and like hall hits on each other,

2120
02:06:16,040 --> 02:06:20,120
Speaker 12: and the city is technically speaking, it's run by like

2121
02:06:20,400 --> 02:06:23,200
Speaker 12: what is a warlord army, and then beneath the warlord

2122
02:06:23,320 --> 02:06:27,040
Speaker 12: army there are all of these organized criminal organizations. But like,

2123
02:06:27,640 --> 02:06:30,960
Speaker 12: you know, the unions have this thing called dog beating brigades,

2124
02:06:31,760 --> 02:06:38,000
Speaker 12: where the dog beating brigades, like if you like publicly

2125
02:06:38,120 --> 02:06:41,320
Speaker 12: started scabbing you very publicly were standing against the strike,

2126
02:06:41,440 --> 02:06:43,320
Speaker 12: Like the dog beating brigade would show up in the

2127
02:06:43,360 --> 02:06:44,840
Speaker 12: middle of the night and it was just like a

2128
02:06:44,920 --> 02:06:47,280
Speaker 12: bunch of guys with hatchets and it would just like

2129
02:06:47,400 --> 02:06:49,200
Speaker 12: beat the shit out of you. And this was just

2130
02:06:49,280 --> 02:06:51,600
Speaker 12: like a normal thing that was happening between these strikes.

2131
02:06:51,880 --> 02:06:54,680
Speaker 12: So this whole period of Chinese history is nuts.

2132
02:06:55,000 --> 02:06:57,600
Speaker 5: It's wild. There's so much shit going on.

2133
02:06:58,240 --> 02:07:02,280
Speaker 12: That's just I don't know, they had the dog beating brigades.

2134
02:07:03,880 --> 02:07:06,280
Speaker 12: I guess in the American context we'd call them like

2135
02:07:06,760 --> 02:07:10,800
Speaker 12: like the scabby beating brigades or whatever. But you know,

2136
02:07:11,480 --> 02:07:15,280
Speaker 12: it's a rough time for everyone. But what they kind

2137
02:07:15,320 --> 02:07:18,120
Speaker 12: of don't have Without sort of business owners, they're never

2138
02:07:18,320 --> 02:07:21,840
Speaker 12: really able to sort of seize control of production and

2139
02:07:22,840 --> 02:07:27,400
Speaker 12: repurpose it towards you know, keeping everyone fed. And I

2140
02:07:27,440 --> 02:07:29,560
Speaker 12: will say this is something that actually I think we

2141
02:07:29,760 --> 02:07:32,720
Speaker 12: are better at than they were in the sense of

2142
02:07:32,880 --> 02:07:36,680
Speaker 12: we are better at running to logistics of getting a

2143
02:07:36,720 --> 02:07:38,800
Speaker 12: bunch of people's food and the stuff that they need

2144
02:07:38,880 --> 02:07:40,800
Speaker 12: to survive. And that's something we can look at in

2145
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:44,600
Speaker 12: Minneapolis where and this is obviously coming from people's money,

2146
02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:47,960
Speaker 12: but a lot of the organizing in Minneapolis is about

2147
02:07:48,000 --> 02:07:51,080
Speaker 12: getting people who can't leave their homes food. We've also

2148
02:07:51,200 --> 02:07:55,360
Speaker 12: seen in the last day or so tenant and labor

2149
02:07:55,680 --> 02:07:59,360
Speaker 12: union leaders are talking about a rent strike in Minneapolis,

2150
02:07:59,520 --> 02:08:02,160
Speaker 12: which can help people, you know, not get effected because

2151
02:08:02,160 --> 02:08:04,000
Speaker 12: they can't go to work. But it's also something that

2152
02:08:04,320 --> 02:08:05,880
Speaker 12: if you're going to do a general strike, yeah, you

2153
02:08:05,960 --> 02:08:08,960
Speaker 12: probably also have to do a rent strike, but if

2154
02:08:09,000 --> 02:08:10,800
Speaker 12: you want to keep a general strike going, and this

2155
02:08:10,880 --> 02:08:12,600
Speaker 12: is something that we're going to get to a lot

2156
02:08:12,720 --> 02:08:17,320
Speaker 12: more in later episodes, the Seattle general strike is a

2157
02:08:17,440 --> 02:08:18,080
Speaker 12: very large.

2158
02:08:17,920 --> 02:08:18,520
Speaker 5: Example of this.

2159
02:08:19,080 --> 02:08:20,480
Speaker 12: If you want to keep this thing going, you have

2160
02:08:20,560 --> 02:08:22,760
Speaker 12: to take control of the places where you're working and

2161
02:08:23,840 --> 02:08:28,840
Speaker 12: you know, have them provide the food for people and

2162
02:08:28,920 --> 02:08:32,320
Speaker 12: have them provide the resources that people need. But in

2163
02:08:32,440 --> 02:08:35,120
Speaker 12: this sort of context, almost everyone who's involved in this,

2164
02:08:35,280 --> 02:08:38,600
Speaker 12: this is their first general strike. What really happens here, right,

2165
02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:40,800
Speaker 12: is that the unions are forced to call off the strike.

2166
02:08:40,840 --> 02:08:44,200
Speaker 12: They get minor concessions in exchange from the foreign bosses.

2167
02:08:44,840 --> 02:08:47,520
Speaker 12: But what it does is politicize the entire city, and

2168
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,320
Speaker 12: it politicizes all of China in a way that is

2169
02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:53,320
Speaker 12: going to shape all of the politics in the country forever.

2170
02:08:54,360 --> 02:08:56,840
Speaker 12: I guess, like it's the thing that creates modern China

2171
02:08:56,960 --> 02:08:59,880
Speaker 12: is the politicization that comes out of this period. You know,

2172
02:09:00,280 --> 02:09:03,480
Speaker 12: it's what sort of transforms Chinese politics or something that

2173
02:09:03,640 --> 02:09:06,360
Speaker 12: was purely the almost purely the domain of worldlords into

2174
02:09:06,440 --> 02:09:09,960
Speaker 12: something that's now the domain of the nationalists and the communists.

2175
02:09:09,960 --> 02:09:12,760
Speaker 12: And obviously, you know, the military conflict is a large

2176
02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:14,120
Speaker 12: thing in this that we don't really have time to

2177
02:09:14,160 --> 02:09:19,560
Speaker 12: get into. But you know, this period transforms the entire

2178
02:09:20,280 --> 02:09:23,600
Speaker 12: politics of China. Right, People who had never thought about

2179
02:09:23,640 --> 02:09:26,520
Speaker 12: politics before, people who had never you know, who had

2180
02:09:26,600 --> 02:09:29,120
Speaker 12: never like heard the words imperialism or like heard the

2181
02:09:29,200 --> 02:09:33,520
Speaker 12: words like militarism, right, are suddenly in the streets talking

2182
02:09:33,560 --> 02:09:35,760
Speaker 12: about it, and they're talking about general strikes, and they're

2183
02:09:35,800 --> 02:09:39,160
Speaker 12: talking about how how can we run these occupying armies out?

2184
02:09:40,080 --> 02:09:43,240
Speaker 12: And I want to sort of mention how this whole

2185
02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:45,760
Speaker 12: thing ends, right, which that people keep organizing and they

2186
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:49,400
Speaker 12: keep fighting. And one year later, in nineteen twenty six,

2187
02:09:50,000 --> 02:09:53,760
Speaker 12: the first of the uprisings begins, now, the first uprising,

2188
02:09:53,800 --> 02:09:56,080
Speaker 12: and these three uprisings are all sort of like hauled

2189
02:09:56,160 --> 02:09:58,760
Speaker 12: by the Chinese Communist Party and their unions.

2190
02:09:59,640 --> 02:10:00,520
Speaker 5: The first, this one.

2191
02:10:00,680 --> 02:10:03,840
Speaker 12: Fails horribly, and the warlords put the heads of workers

2192
02:10:03,880 --> 02:10:06,960
Speaker 12: they'd killed on pikes. They have these squads where there's

2193
02:10:06,960 --> 02:10:10,760
Speaker 12: two guys with broadswords and a guy with like a

2194
02:10:10,880 --> 02:10:13,400
Speaker 12: sheriff's badge effectively, who go door to door and if

2195
02:10:13,400 --> 02:10:16,160
Speaker 12: they find someone who they think had like handed out leaflets,

2196
02:10:16,200 --> 02:10:17,440
Speaker 12: they would execute.

2197
02:10:17,040 --> 02:10:18,480
Speaker 2: Them on the spot.

2198
02:10:18,680 --> 02:10:20,600
Speaker 12: This is the kind of repression that they're dealing with.

2199
02:10:21,360 --> 02:10:24,400
Speaker 12: And they did it again. They tried again in nineteen

2200
02:10:24,440 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 12: twenty seven, and that one failed. And at the second time,

2201
02:10:27,320 --> 02:10:29,960
Speaker 12: by the way, it's worth mentioning was supposed to be

2202
02:10:30,240 --> 02:10:34,080
Speaker 12: a general strike coordinated with an uprising, and they fucked

2203
02:10:34,160 --> 02:10:35,640
Speaker 12: up the coordination of it, but it did also. The

2204
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:37,920
Speaker 12: second one was a three hundred thousand strong general strike,

2205
02:10:38,560 --> 02:10:42,760
Speaker 12: and the third stry was an eight hundred thousand strong

2206
02:10:42,880 --> 02:10:47,120
Speaker 12: general strike, and they stays the intrection and they run

2207
02:10:47,200 --> 02:10:50,280
Speaker 12: the warlord armies out of the city, and for a

2208
02:10:50,480 --> 02:10:54,360
Speaker 12: sort of brief glorious moment, Shanghai is in the hands

2209
02:10:54,440 --> 02:10:59,000
Speaker 12: of its workers, and theyre subsequent betrayal and slaughter by

2210
02:10:59,040 --> 02:11:03,600
Speaker 12: the USSR and Shang Kai Shack, mostly Shang Kai Shak.

2211
02:11:03,880 --> 02:11:05,160
Speaker 5: The USSR is also.

2212
02:11:05,000 --> 02:11:07,640
Speaker 12: At fault here for telling them to keep allying with

2213
02:11:07,760 --> 02:11:10,040
Speaker 12: Shan Kai Shak and the nationalists. That's the story for

2214
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:15,600
Speaker 12: another time. But I think to close we are used

2215
02:11:15,640 --> 02:11:20,480
Speaker 12: to thinking that the times that we live in our unprecedented,

2216
02:11:21,240 --> 02:11:25,560
Speaker 12: and in some ways they are. But people have fought

2217
02:11:25,920 --> 02:11:31,440
Speaker 12: our struggles before. People have fought and died and won

2218
02:11:32,400 --> 02:11:36,880
Speaker 12: to stop the brain of men with guns over our cities.

2219
02:11:38,160 --> 02:11:40,480
Speaker 12: And if we learn the lessons of both their time

2220
02:11:40,600 --> 02:11:43,600
Speaker 12: and ours, if we use that knowledge to act in

2221
02:11:43,680 --> 02:11:49,160
Speaker 12: the moment of crisis, we can win conscience, history, and

2222
02:11:49,240 --> 02:11:53,040
Speaker 12: the cries of the suffering demanded. So let's go win

2223
02:11:53,160 --> 02:11:56,800
Speaker 12: the war. We have a world to win and nothing

2224
02:11:56,880 --> 02:11:57,920
Speaker 12: to lose but our chains.

2225
02:12:13,640 --> 02:12:16,960
Speaker 3: This is it could happen here. Executive Disorder our weekly

2226
02:12:17,000 --> 02:12:19,720
Speaker 3: newscast covering What's happening in the White House, the Crumbling World,

2227
02:12:19,760 --> 02:12:22,240
Speaker 3: and what it means for you. I'm Garrison Davis to Dame,

2228
02:12:22,320 --> 02:12:25,600
Speaker 3: joined by James Stout, Mia Wong, and Robert Evans. This

2229
02:12:25,680 --> 02:12:30,400
Speaker 3: episode recovering the week February eleventh to February eighteenth. Some

2230
02:12:30,920 --> 02:12:34,920
Speaker 3: small news items up top. Last week, the FDA declined

2231
02:12:34,920 --> 02:12:39,040
Speaker 3: to review a new flu vaccine from Maderna. In February twelfth,

2232
02:12:39,520 --> 02:12:42,960
Speaker 3: Tom Homan announced that Operation Metro Surge has concluded and

2233
02:12:43,120 --> 02:12:46,160
Speaker 3: quote significant drawdown has already been underway this week and

2234
02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:49,840
Speaker 3: will continue through the next week un quote. Zarmmdani has

2235
02:12:49,920 --> 02:12:52,400
Speaker 3: ordered a new audit of city agencies to ensure compliance

2236
02:12:52,440 --> 02:12:55,320
Speaker 3: with sanctuary city laws in New York. And Stephen Colbert

2237
02:12:55,480 --> 02:12:58,560
Speaker 3: says that CBS refused to air his interview with Texas

2238
02:12:58,560 --> 02:13:04,200
Speaker 3: Democratic Senate James Tellerico, citing the FCC's equal time rule.

2239
02:13:04,680 --> 02:13:07,600
Speaker 3: Despite this rule historically having an exception for late night

2240
02:13:07,640 --> 02:13:12,440
Speaker 3: talk show interviews. Last month, FCC Chairman Brendan Carr threatened

2241
02:13:12,440 --> 02:13:14,920
Speaker 3: to enforce the rule regardless of the well established president

2242
02:13:15,040 --> 02:13:19,120
Speaker 3: that excluded talk show interviews. And finally, the owner of

2243
02:13:19,280 --> 02:13:21,800
Speaker 3: a warehouse facility in Hutchins Texas so so that they

2244
02:13:22,160 --> 02:13:24,400
Speaker 3: won't sell or lease the building to the federal government

2245
02:13:24,480 --> 02:13:27,800
Speaker 3: as a detention facility. The city's mayor and council all

2246
02:13:27,920 --> 02:13:31,640
Speaker 3: opposed the project. Seizure by eminent domain is still possible.

2247
02:13:32,240 --> 02:13:35,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess with that, there's been campaigns in

2248
02:13:36,040 --> 02:13:39,720
Speaker 2: a couple of other small, traditionally conservative rural areas to

2249
02:13:39,880 --> 02:13:44,000
Speaker 2: not lease facilities for ICE. And it's still a little unclear,

2250
02:13:44,000 --> 02:13:45,920
Speaker 2: and I suspect it's kind of column A Columbie. How

2251
02:13:46,000 --> 02:13:49,080
Speaker 2: much of this is, you know, nimbiism and how much

2252
02:13:49,120 --> 02:13:51,240
Speaker 2: of this is resistance to ice specifically.

2253
02:13:52,240 --> 02:13:54,600
Speaker 11: Yeah, we covered a little of that in the episode

2254
02:13:54,600 --> 02:13:57,760
Speaker 11: I did on Social Circle, which is in Georgia last week.

2255
02:13:58,000 --> 02:13:59,440
Speaker 7: But I think it's fair to say both.

2256
02:13:59,720 --> 02:14:01,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And obviously when I say nimbism, I don't mean

2257
02:14:01,720 --> 02:14:04,080
Speaker 2: it in a bad way. It's bad to have this

2258
02:14:04,200 --> 02:14:06,080
Speaker 2: in your back yard. But like their issue wasn't a

2259
02:14:06,120 --> 02:14:08,000
Speaker 2: moral one in some cases.

2260
02:14:08,120 --> 02:14:09,240
Speaker 7: Yeah, in some cases.

2261
02:14:09,280 --> 02:14:12,640
Speaker 11: I think in some cases it's their little columny, little

2262
02:14:12,760 --> 02:14:13,080
Speaker 11: column B.

2263
02:14:13,520 --> 02:14:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to tell.

2264
02:14:15,000 --> 02:14:17,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, And I think like it's worth noting, for instance,

2265
02:14:17,960 --> 02:14:21,400
Speaker 11: hearing in southern California, right a town called Dulzura, pretty

2266
02:14:21,440 --> 02:14:23,600
Speaker 11: small town. Maybe you've heard of it from when the

2267
02:14:23,680 --> 02:14:26,720
Speaker 11: KKK did border patrols there back in the day. But

2268
02:14:26,920 --> 02:14:29,720
Speaker 11: the Border patrol are trying to build a big new

2269
02:14:29,800 --> 02:14:32,280
Speaker 11: facility there and have been for some time called New

2270
02:14:32,360 --> 02:14:33,040
Speaker 11: brown Field.

2271
02:14:33,880 --> 02:14:36,680
Speaker 3: There has been local opposition to that among people.

2272
02:14:36,440 --> 02:14:38,200
Speaker 11: Who are very like people who I have spoken to

2273
02:14:38,400 --> 02:14:42,320
Speaker 11: are otherwise conservative, and like, some of it is, yeah,

2274
02:14:42,320 --> 02:14:43,960
Speaker 11: I don't want this changing the character of the town.

2275
02:14:44,040 --> 02:14:46,320
Speaker 11: I don't want a giant detention center that would eclipse

2276
02:14:46,360 --> 02:14:48,760
Speaker 11: the population of this very small town.

2277
02:14:49,400 --> 02:14:51,640
Speaker 7: Some of them is also like, I don't want them

2278
02:14:51,640 --> 02:14:52,800
Speaker 7: to be locking up people out here.

2279
02:14:52,880 --> 02:14:55,080
Speaker 11: We have a nice life out here, and you know,

2280
02:14:55,200 --> 02:14:57,520
Speaker 11: we have little lots of fields and horses and space,

2281
02:14:57,640 --> 02:15:00,000
Speaker 11: and it seems like it would be really fucked up

2282
02:15:00,320 --> 02:15:01,600
Speaker 11: to have people detained out here.

2283
02:15:01,720 --> 02:15:02,960
Speaker 7: Like I think that that.

2284
02:15:03,320 --> 02:15:07,520
Speaker 11: Nimby impulse can sometimes like could still combine with even

2285
02:15:07,560 --> 02:15:10,840
Speaker 11: people who are not, you know, abolitionists. They don't want

2286
02:15:10,960 --> 02:15:13,440
Speaker 11: to be confronted with the horrors directly next to them.

2287
02:15:14,080 --> 02:15:16,879
Speaker 2: Yep. And we'll talk a little bit more about the numbers,

2288
02:15:17,400 --> 02:15:21,160
Speaker 2: like ICE's polling numbers, like how popular they are with Americans.

2289
02:15:21,240 --> 02:15:23,600
Speaker 2: But one of the things we've seen this year. Is

2290
02:15:23,720 --> 02:15:27,200
Speaker 2: that like they've been shedding support even from Republicans, So like,

2291
02:15:27,560 --> 02:15:30,200
Speaker 2: you know, whatever debate we have here, that's like certainly

2292
02:15:30,280 --> 02:15:31,320
Speaker 2: not a non factor.

2293
02:15:32,280 --> 02:15:32,720
Speaker 7: Definitely.

2294
02:15:33,240 --> 02:15:35,560
Speaker 2: I think it's now time for us to talk about

2295
02:15:35,640 --> 02:15:40,000
Speaker 2: the biggest news story this week, which is that Shilah

2296
02:15:40,040 --> 02:15:43,800
Speaker 2: buff was arrested in New Orleans during Marty Grab after

2297
02:15:43,920 --> 02:15:48,800
Speaker 2: getting into a series of fights. Who he was in

2298
02:15:48,880 --> 02:15:51,760
Speaker 2: the movie Holes? Oh yeah, he was also in a

2299
02:15:51,800 --> 02:15:54,280
Speaker 2: different production called Holes, but not based on a book.

2300
02:15:54,680 --> 02:15:56,080
Speaker 3: He was in Holes. I forgot.

2301
02:15:56,320 --> 02:15:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was in both Holes.

2302
02:15:57,480 --> 02:16:03,160
Speaker 7: So I don't know who I've never Yeah, he's a he's.

2303
02:16:03,000 --> 02:16:05,360
Speaker 2: A child actor who was a who was very popular

2304
02:16:05,560 --> 02:16:09,640
Speaker 2: during the early two thousands and has gone. He played

2305
02:16:09,800 --> 02:16:12,880
Speaker 2: the Indiana Jones's son in the reboot event or in

2306
02:16:12,920 --> 02:16:15,360
Speaker 2: the new in the fourth Indiana Jones movie God and

2307
02:16:15,440 --> 02:16:18,160
Speaker 2: then he is he has He has since kind of

2308
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:24,080
Speaker 2: fallen into madness and disrepute. He's a spousal abuser. He's

2309
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:28,440
Speaker 2: repeatedly assaulted people in public. He showed up on that

2310
02:16:28,560 --> 02:16:32,120
Speaker 2: webcam White supremacists were drinking milk on once for reasons

2311
02:16:32,160 --> 02:16:34,560
Speaker 2: that are still to this day somewhat unclear to me.

2312
02:16:34,920 --> 02:16:36,720
Speaker 2: And he got into a fight in Marty Gras, which

2313
02:16:36,800 --> 02:16:38,360
Speaker 2: is just just just a fun little bit of news.

2314
02:16:38,440 --> 02:16:41,040
Speaker 2: My favorite part of this is that he assaulted a guy.

2315
02:16:41,360 --> 02:16:43,760
Speaker 2: He was repeatedly restrained by members of a bar, and

2316
02:16:43,840 --> 02:16:45,760
Speaker 2: whenever they would let him go because they just wanted

2317
02:16:46,000 --> 02:16:47,640
Speaker 2: him to leave, they didn't want to call the cops,

2318
02:16:48,000 --> 02:16:50,040
Speaker 2: he would then continue to attack the guy he was

2319
02:16:50,080 --> 02:16:52,920
Speaker 2: assaulting until they forced to. They were forced to call

2320
02:16:52,959 --> 02:16:56,160
Speaker 2: the police and have him arrested. And I've been in

2321
02:16:56,240 --> 02:16:58,480
Speaker 2: Marty Gras over the last few days, and let me

2322
02:16:58,560 --> 02:17:01,920
Speaker 2: tell you, getting arrested by the police during Marti Gras

2323
02:17:02,320 --> 02:17:05,080
Speaker 2: not easy. I don't have a lot to say about

2324
02:17:05,120 --> 02:17:07,200
Speaker 2: that other than I was surprised by the number of

2325
02:17:07,560 --> 02:17:11,080
Speaker 2: very political floats that I saw, particularly at least one

2326
02:17:11,160 --> 02:17:15,640
Speaker 2: that was entirely paper mache ice GY's in a very

2327
02:17:15,800 --> 02:17:18,720
Speaker 2: like non flattering way. There were a lot of like

2328
02:17:19,080 --> 02:17:22,440
Speaker 2: costumes and a number of references on floats. There's a

2329
02:17:22,480 --> 02:17:26,080
Speaker 2: couple of pretty hideous caricatures of Trump on floats, and

2330
02:17:26,200 --> 02:17:30,360
Speaker 2: they all got like a widely positive reaction. And I

2331
02:17:30,480 --> 02:17:33,040
Speaker 2: find this interesting. And I'm bringing this up because the

2332
02:17:33,400 --> 02:17:35,680
Speaker 2: research that I've largely been doing for the EV this

2333
02:17:35,760 --> 02:17:37,560
Speaker 2: week is trying to get a handle on, like where

2334
02:17:37,720 --> 02:17:41,720
Speaker 2: Americans are polling right now and how popular or unpopular

2335
02:17:42,000 --> 02:17:45,440
Speaker 2: is the president and his agenda, because like we see

2336
02:17:45,720 --> 02:17:48,920
Speaker 2: articles every week about like Trump's polls hit a new low,

2337
02:17:49,720 --> 02:17:53,120
Speaker 2: or the most recent article that I think it's gallup

2338
02:17:53,240 --> 02:17:57,039
Speaker 2: is no longer going to be doing presidential like popularity polling.

2339
02:17:57,600 --> 02:17:58,960
Speaker 2: But I wanted to get a look at, like how

2340
02:17:59,080 --> 02:18:02,040
Speaker 2: the actual like part and their agendas are holding up.

2341
02:18:02,200 --> 02:18:06,680
Speaker 2: And it's a pretty shocking gap between September October, like

2342
02:18:06,840 --> 02:18:11,360
Speaker 2: fall of last year and today. So in September of

2343
02:18:11,480 --> 02:18:16,080
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, per Yugov, the Democratic Party had about

2344
02:18:16,080 --> 02:18:20,080
Speaker 2: a sixty four percent unfavorable so like sixty four percent

2345
02:18:20,120 --> 02:18:23,440
Speaker 2: of polled Americans didn't like the Democratic Party and a

2346
02:18:23,520 --> 02:18:26,280
Speaker 2: little less than thirty four percent of Americans had a

2347
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:29,400
Speaker 2: favorable opinion of the Democratic Party. And if you actually

2348
02:18:29,400 --> 02:18:32,440
Speaker 2: look at the graphs for those that you GOV presents,

2349
02:18:32,480 --> 02:18:35,320
Speaker 2: they're basically making like a wineglass shape, right, So what

2350
02:18:35,440 --> 02:18:39,920
Speaker 2: that means is unfavorability is moving up and favorability is

2351
02:18:40,040 --> 02:18:42,880
Speaker 2: moving down rapidly, Like at the time at which those

2352
02:18:42,920 --> 02:18:45,440
Speaker 2: bulls were taken in September of last year, Meanwhile, the

2353
02:18:45,520 --> 02:18:49,400
Speaker 2: Republican Party. Neither party was popular, but the Republican Party

2354
02:18:49,440 --> 02:18:52,920
Speaker 2: the wineglass shape was a lot more muted, more like

2355
02:18:53,000 --> 02:18:56,280
Speaker 2: a shot glass. Fifty five point four percent of Americans

2356
02:18:56,320 --> 02:19:00,320
Speaker 2: pulled by Yugov expressed a unfavorable opinion of the Republican Party,

2357
02:19:00,560 --> 02:19:03,480
Speaker 2: at about forty two point three expressed a favorable opinion.

2358
02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:08,160
Speaker 2: You can compare this to October twenty twenty five polling

2359
02:19:08,280 --> 02:19:12,360
Speaker 2: by Pew Research, which showed something similar. Sixty four percent

2360
02:19:12,560 --> 02:19:16,959
Speaker 2: of Americans were frustrated with the Republican Party, seventy five

2361
02:19:17,000 --> 02:19:20,040
Speaker 2: percent of Americans reported being frustrated with the Democratic Party.

2362
02:19:20,440 --> 02:19:23,320
Speaker 2: Forty nine percent of Americans polled replied that they were

2363
02:19:23,440 --> 02:19:27,080
Speaker 2: angry at the Republican Party, fifty percent reported being angry

2364
02:19:27,120 --> 02:19:30,560
Speaker 2: at the Democratic Party. Similarly, Republicans, thirty six cent of

2365
02:19:30,560 --> 02:19:33,959
Speaker 2: Americans felt hopeful about the Republican Party, twenty eight percent

2366
02:19:34,000 --> 02:19:37,880
Speaker 2: of Americans felt hopeful about the Democratic Party, and then

2367
02:19:38,040 --> 02:19:41,000
Speaker 2: twenty seven percent of Americans were proud of the Republican

2368
02:19:41,080 --> 02:19:45,480
Speaker 2: Party sixteen percent Democratic Party. Those are pretty bleak numbers

2369
02:19:45,680 --> 02:19:49,360
Speaker 2: for the Democrats coming in the fall of twenty twenty five.

2370
02:19:49,560 --> 02:19:53,880
Speaker 2: Like that is kind of black pilling. Stuff. Right, This

2371
02:19:54,280 --> 02:19:56,280
Speaker 2: was in the fall of last year, pretty rapid change

2372
02:19:56,280 --> 02:19:59,240
Speaker 2: from where things had been about four years ago. For example,

2373
02:19:59,320 --> 02:20:03,039
Speaker 2: in September two, only twenty one, about sixty four percent

2374
02:20:03,160 --> 02:20:05,920
Speaker 2: of Americans had expressed frustration with the Democratic Party as

2375
02:20:05,920 --> 02:20:08,880
Speaker 2: opposed to seventy five percent four years later. So that's

2376
02:20:08,920 --> 02:20:13,320
Speaker 2: all fall of last year. Now, between when the polls

2377
02:20:13,360 --> 02:20:15,920
Speaker 2: that I read to you came out and now we've

2378
02:20:15,959 --> 02:20:18,920
Speaker 2: had a cup several major things happen. One of the

2379
02:20:19,000 --> 02:20:23,880
Speaker 2: more significant was the long shutdown, which was disasters for

2380
02:20:24,040 --> 02:20:27,800
Speaker 2: Republican favorability and for Trump's own favorability. And we also

2381
02:20:27,920 --> 02:20:31,320
Speaker 2: had a significant I mean, obviously in LA and in Chicago,

2382
02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:34,120
Speaker 2: Ice had been doing very terrible and very like you know,

2383
02:20:34,720 --> 02:20:38,520
Speaker 2: I guess I should say, like documented crimes, like horrible

2384
02:20:38,600 --> 02:20:41,960
Speaker 2: things that were spread widely on social media. But that

2385
02:20:42,160 --> 02:20:46,279
Speaker 2: has also accelerated massively in the first couple of weeks

2386
02:20:46,480 --> 02:20:50,040
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty six. And what we're seeing now in

2387
02:20:50,200 --> 02:20:54,040
Speaker 2: more recent polls taken in late January and from anywhere

2388
02:20:54,040 --> 02:20:56,400
Speaker 2: from like kind of early January to late January and

2389
02:20:56,480 --> 02:21:01,240
Speaker 2: early February is a significant reversal. So NBC News is

2390
02:21:01,320 --> 02:21:04,960
Speaker 2: Decision Desk coalated a bunch of different polls like Daily Mail, Marquette,

2391
02:21:05,000 --> 02:21:10,160
Speaker 2: Wall Street Journal, Yahoo, YouGov, Fox News, Emerson, and over

2392
02:21:10,200 --> 02:21:13,400
Speaker 2: the last month or so, you're looking at an average

2393
02:21:13,480 --> 02:21:16,960
Speaker 2: spread of all of these polls of about negative nineteen

2394
02:21:17,080 --> 02:21:21,720
Speaker 2: point nine percent favorability for the Republican Party and about

2395
02:21:21,840 --> 02:21:25,680
Speaker 2: negative twelve point eight percent favorability for the Democratic Party.

2396
02:21:26,000 --> 02:21:27,720
Speaker 2: So when you think back to those numbers from last fall,

2397
02:21:27,920 --> 02:21:33,000
Speaker 2: that's a pretty dramatic change, and it kind of correlates

2398
02:21:33,040 --> 02:21:35,560
Speaker 2: to a dramatic change in Trump's own favorability, which has

2399
02:21:35,560 --> 02:21:38,800
Speaker 2: gone down by about twelve percent per the average of

2400
02:21:38,920 --> 02:21:42,280
Speaker 2: those polls that kind of aggregated by NBC News Desk

2401
02:21:43,080 --> 02:21:45,760
Speaker 2: their article notes quote. Ipso's polling released in late January

2402
02:21:45,879 --> 02:21:48,680
Speaker 2: found fifty one percent of Americans say Trump' immigration policy

2403
02:21:48,800 --> 02:21:51,520
Speaker 2: is on the wrong track. Amazingly, just a year ago,

2404
02:21:51,600 --> 02:21:54,520
Speaker 2: American said Republicans have a better plan, policy, and approach

2405
02:21:54,600 --> 02:21:57,480
Speaker 2: than Democrats on immigration by a twenty two point margin.

2406
02:21:58,040 --> 02:22:01,480
Speaker 2: Now that advantage is down to five points pints. So

2407
02:22:01,920 --> 02:22:05,000
Speaker 2: while Trump is underwater with immigration, his and the Republican

2408
02:22:05,040 --> 02:22:08,520
Speaker 2: Party's policies towards immigration are still more popular than the

2409
02:22:08,560 --> 02:22:12,080
Speaker 2: Democratic Party's response. Is to immigration, but they have also

2410
02:22:12,280 --> 02:22:16,119
Speaker 2: collapsed in terms of like. The gap between those two things, again,

2411
02:22:16,200 --> 02:22:18,880
Speaker 2: twenty two point margin to a five point lead is

2412
02:22:18,959 --> 02:22:23,240
Speaker 2: a is a pretty dramatic narrowing. And one of the

2413
02:22:23,360 --> 02:22:27,320
Speaker 2: things that has come along with this is an increasing

2414
02:22:27,840 --> 02:22:31,720
Speaker 2: agreement among Americans that ICE has not only gone too far,

2415
02:22:32,120 --> 02:22:35,840
Speaker 2: but needs to be if not abolished entirely, then severely curtailed,

2416
02:22:35,840 --> 02:22:39,560
Speaker 2: and a lot of Americans, this shocking amount, currently support

2417
02:22:39,640 --> 02:22:45,440
Speaker 2: abolishing ICE entirely. A PBS News, NPR Merist poll released

2418
02:22:45,480 --> 02:22:48,160
Speaker 2: recently found that a majority of Americans feel ICE is

2419
02:22:48,240 --> 02:22:51,920
Speaker 2: making the country less safe and has gone too far.

2420
02:22:52,520 --> 02:22:56,280
Speaker 2: Six in ten Americans disapprove of what ICE is doing,

2421
02:22:56,400 --> 02:22:59,080
Speaker 2: only about three and ten approve of it, So by

2422
02:22:59,120 --> 02:23:04,000
Speaker 2: a two to one margin, Americans disapprove ICE's operations to

2423
02:23:04,360 --> 02:23:08,800
Speaker 2: approve of their behavior. This is a very like political breakdown.

2424
02:23:08,840 --> 02:23:12,480
Speaker 2: About ninety one percent of Democrats disapprove of Ice, sixty

2425
02:23:12,520 --> 02:23:16,400
Speaker 2: cent of Independence disapprove of ICE. Meanwhile, seventy three percent

2426
02:23:16,480 --> 02:23:19,879
Speaker 2: of Republicans approve of ICE, but even that number has

2427
02:23:20,000 --> 02:23:24,640
Speaker 2: dropped fairly recently. Right In fact, the percentage of Americans

2428
02:23:24,680 --> 02:23:27,760
Speaker 2: that believe ICE hasn't gone far enough dropped from eighteen

2429
02:23:27,800 --> 02:23:31,400
Speaker 2: percent to twelve percent over the last year, and only

2430
02:23:31,440 --> 02:23:33,880
Speaker 2: about twenty two percent of Americans feel like Ice is

2431
02:23:33,920 --> 02:23:36,400
Speaker 2: doing a good job compared to twenty six percent of

2432
02:23:36,480 --> 02:23:41,599
Speaker 2: Americans a year ago. So we're seeing like pretty unequivocally

2433
02:23:42,000 --> 02:23:48,720
Speaker 2: Americans rejecting the Republican tactics on immigration, and they tend

2434
02:23:48,800 --> 02:23:53,080
Speaker 2: to be blaming Ice for it, right, Like, That's one

2435
02:23:53,120 --> 02:23:54,800
Speaker 2: of the things that's most interesting to me is that

2436
02:23:54,959 --> 02:23:58,080
Speaker 2: both Ice and President Trump have seen the most dramatic

2437
02:23:58,160 --> 02:24:01,800
Speaker 2: collapses in public support. Would suggests to me that, like

2438
02:24:02,040 --> 02:24:06,279
Speaker 2: Americans are kind of tying these two things together. Currently,

2439
02:24:06,440 --> 02:24:09,400
Speaker 2: per Yugov, as of January twenty fourth, twenty twenty six,

2440
02:24:09,879 --> 02:24:13,200
Speaker 2: more Americans support abolishing ICE than oppose it. Now, this

2441
02:24:13,240 --> 02:24:15,680
Speaker 2: is not mean a majority of American support abolishing Ice.

2442
02:24:15,720 --> 02:24:18,600
Speaker 2: I've seen some people mistate that forty six percent of

2443
02:24:18,760 --> 02:24:22,160
Speaker 2: US adults, as pulled by Yugov, somewhat or strongly support

2444
02:24:22,200 --> 02:24:26,000
Speaker 2: abolishing Ice, twelve percent are not sure. Forty one percent

2445
02:24:26,160 --> 02:24:30,560
Speaker 2: somewhat or strongly oppose abolishing Ice. Yeah, that's still pretty striking.

2446
02:24:31,120 --> 02:24:33,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, say yeah, a plurality.

2447
02:24:33,400 --> 02:24:36,280
Speaker 11: Right, Maybe now would be a good time to talk

2448
02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:40,160
Speaker 11: a little bit about like where Democrats, different Democrats are,

2449
02:24:40,160 --> 02:24:43,039
Speaker 11: different wings of the Democrat Party are on abolishing ice,

2450
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:45,320
Speaker 11: because I think it's one of these areas where like

2451
02:24:46,440 --> 02:24:50,439
Speaker 11: the further up the party you go, the more detached

2452
02:24:50,640 --> 02:24:54,680
Speaker 11: from that public opinion you get. So maybe you will

2453
02:24:54,720 --> 02:24:58,400
Speaker 11: start the Keem Jeffries, Democrat leader in the House, hit

2454
02:24:58,520 --> 02:25:00,720
Speaker 11: him on the Joy Read Show on the topic of

2455
02:25:00,760 --> 02:25:01,600
Speaker 11: abolishing ice.

2456
02:25:02,240 --> 02:25:05,440
Speaker 13: Why not lead and say abolish ice, because what you're

2457
02:25:05,440 --> 02:25:09,200
Speaker 13: telling us is you want our taxpayer dollars to pay

2458
02:25:09,680 --> 02:25:13,640
Speaker 13: for a lawless, massed, armed agency to continue terrorizing our cities.

2459
02:25:14,080 --> 02:25:16,320
Speaker 13: And I'm trying to figure out how you, as a

2460
02:25:16,440 --> 02:25:19,959
Speaker 13: leader can be telling Americans that their taxpayer dollars should

2461
02:25:19,959 --> 02:25:20,600
Speaker 13: be going twice.

2462
02:25:21,000 --> 02:25:23,800
Speaker 14: I don't understand anything that you just said. When I've

2463
02:25:23,840 --> 02:25:26,280
Speaker 14: loved English well, I don't understand anything that you've just

2464
02:25:26,400 --> 02:25:30,920
Speaker 14: said to me when I've made clear that taxpayer dollars

2465
02:25:31,160 --> 02:25:34,480
Speaker 14: should be used to make life more affordable for the

2466
02:25:34,520 --> 02:25:37,680
Speaker 14: American people, not brutaliza kill them. That's the whole reason

2467
02:25:37,760 --> 02:25:40,320
Speaker 14: we're in this fight right now. That's the whole reason

2468
02:25:40,360 --> 02:25:42,800
Speaker 14: the DHS is getting ready to shut down.

2469
02:25:43,200 --> 02:25:46,440
Speaker 3: That's abolish me, Joy, abolish Ice.

2470
02:25:46,640 --> 02:25:49,960
Speaker 14: That is a Listen, I'm going to use the language

2471
02:25:50,000 --> 02:25:51,880
Speaker 14: that I want to use. You can use the language

2472
02:25:51,920 --> 02:25:52,680
Speaker 14: that you want to use.

2473
02:25:54,680 --> 02:26:00,600
Speaker 11: You can see Jeffries visibly kind of tense when the

2474
02:26:00,680 --> 02:26:03,800
Speaker 11: phrase abolish ice is use right, like he's yeah, he

2475
02:26:03,920 --> 02:26:06,560
Speaker 11: wants nothing to do with it. His immediate responses is

2476
02:26:06,680 --> 02:26:10,160
Speaker 11: to go to affordability. I do want to note that

2477
02:26:10,959 --> 02:26:13,200
Speaker 11: when he was previously asked if he would use the

2478
02:26:13,280 --> 02:26:16,760
Speaker 11: appropriations process to rain in ice, he did exactly the

2479
02:26:16,879 --> 02:26:17,480
Speaker 11: same thing.

2480
02:26:18,320 --> 02:26:21,160
Speaker 12: But why not use the appropriations to rain in ice

2481
02:26:21,240 --> 02:26:23,039
Speaker 12: leader for an operation?

2482
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:26,200
Speaker 15: No, what I'm what I'm focused on right now, Chad

2483
02:26:26,640 --> 02:26:29,160
Speaker 15: is to make life better for the American people by

2484
02:26:29,240 --> 02:26:31,880
Speaker 15: extending the affordable care and tax credits, which, by the way,

2485
02:26:32,160 --> 02:26:35,959
Speaker 15: a lot of folks in this institution believe was not possible.

2486
02:26:37,120 --> 02:26:39,800
Speaker 2: But Democrats made clear before the.

2487
02:26:39,840 --> 02:26:42,280
Speaker 15: Government was shut down that we were in this fight

2488
02:26:42,520 --> 02:26:44,840
Speaker 15: until we win this fight on behalf of the American

2489
02:26:46,360 --> 02:26:47,920
Speaker 15: lower the costs, save health care.

2490
02:26:48,160 --> 02:26:48,840
Speaker 2: That's our objection.

2491
02:26:49,080 --> 02:26:52,280
Speaker 11: Why not that he does the same thing, right, he

2492
02:26:52,560 --> 02:26:55,160
Speaker 11: goes back to affordability, which is something that Democrats have

2493
02:26:56,200 --> 02:26:58,360
Speaker 11: done for the last year and a half. Right, when

2494
02:26:58,520 --> 02:27:02,040
Speaker 11: asked to take a strong leadership stance and ice. Far

2495
02:27:02,120 --> 02:27:04,280
Speaker 11: too much of their leadership has instead like tried to

2496
02:27:04,320 --> 02:27:06,960
Speaker 11: deflect to affordability. I do want to note that, like

2497
02:27:07,800 --> 02:27:11,520
Speaker 11: they are now doing exactly what he was deflecting from there, right, Yeah,

2498
02:27:11,800 --> 02:27:14,200
Speaker 11: and that was only less than a month ago.

2499
02:27:14,480 --> 02:27:17,920
Speaker 3: It's interesting because it's like this cowardice on like specific

2500
02:27:18,160 --> 02:27:21,560
Speaker 3: terms and messaging. Yeah, even though they are using the

2501
02:27:21,600 --> 02:27:23,760
Speaker 3: probations process to try to rain an ice like that

2502
02:27:23,879 --> 02:27:25,879
Speaker 3: is that, Yeah, that is what they are doing now,

2503
02:27:26,200 --> 02:27:29,680
Speaker 3: But it's like a complete complete cowardice or actually like yeah,

2504
02:27:29,800 --> 02:27:33,039
Speaker 3: trying to like use like public pressure to your advantage

2505
02:27:33,360 --> 02:27:34,119
Speaker 3: at the moment.

2506
02:27:33,920 --> 02:27:37,320
Speaker 11: Like, yeah, he's doing the thing and almost like failing

2507
02:27:38,000 --> 02:27:40,400
Speaker 11: to It's not that he's doing the thing, you know,

2508
02:27:40,480 --> 02:27:41,920
Speaker 11: as many of us would wish he did, but like

2509
02:27:42,000 --> 02:27:45,680
Speaker 11: he's failing to take the easy win. Yeah, like because

2510
02:27:45,720 --> 02:27:49,160
Speaker 11: of like you say this like institutional cowardice or like

2511
02:27:49,240 --> 02:27:52,800
Speaker 11: these It's like there's some kind of red line rhetorically

2512
02:27:53,240 --> 02:27:57,160
Speaker 11: for jeffrees and other leadership Democrats that they will not cross.

2513
02:27:57,879 --> 02:28:00,400
Speaker 11: And I have to believe that some of that comes

2514
02:28:00,520 --> 02:28:04,200
Speaker 11: from what they see as like the long legacy of

2515
02:28:04,240 --> 02:28:05,560
Speaker 11: twenty twenty or.

2516
02:28:05,640 --> 02:28:07,920
Speaker 3: Like perceptions of the democratic party is like too far

2517
02:28:08,000 --> 02:28:09,920
Speaker 3: to the left, is too extreme or something.

2518
02:28:10,240 --> 02:28:13,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, they that like specifically the perception that they like

2519
02:28:13,480 --> 02:28:16,880
Speaker 11: attempted to abolish the institution of policing, which was not

2520
02:28:17,080 --> 02:28:19,840
Speaker 11: really anything that they had. There was not in their

2521
02:28:19,840 --> 02:28:23,160
Speaker 11: policy platform. Right, they were not Democrat leaders saying We're

2522
02:28:23,160 --> 02:28:26,039
Speaker 11: going to do away with the cops. In fact, Biden

2523
02:28:26,160 --> 02:28:27,840
Speaker 11: was talking about how we need to fund the police,

2524
02:28:27,920 --> 02:28:29,600
Speaker 11: not defund the police in twenty twenty.

2525
02:28:29,760 --> 02:28:29,920
Speaker 5: Right.

2526
02:28:30,080 --> 02:28:32,720
Speaker 11: Yeah, but nonetheless, like that, there seems to be this

2527
02:28:33,080 --> 02:28:35,880
Speaker 11: real legs. It's very hard for them to break that

2528
02:28:36,000 --> 02:28:42,000
Speaker 11: rhetorical boundary. It's not entirely just jeffreyes on this. Seven

2529
02:28:42,080 --> 02:28:44,440
Speaker 11: Dems cross party lines in late January to vote for

2530
02:28:44,440 --> 02:28:48,199
Speaker 11: a DHS funding bill. So we've got Representative Henry Quella

2531
02:28:48,480 --> 02:28:49,439
Speaker 11: of Texas.

2532
02:28:49,240 --> 02:28:51,840
Speaker 12: Worst the worst Democratic congressman.

2533
02:28:52,480 --> 02:28:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, shit, fucking.

2534
02:28:57,560 --> 02:29:01,280
Speaker 11: Texas stems hit different and like specifically like Rio Grande

2535
02:29:01,320 --> 02:29:03,680
Speaker 11: Valley Democrats are a different breed.

2536
02:29:04,040 --> 02:29:05,080
Speaker 5: God, he sucks so much.

2537
02:29:05,600 --> 02:29:10,279
Speaker 11: There's Jared Golden of Maine, Mary Glusen camp Perez Washington,

2538
02:29:10,879 --> 02:29:14,560
Speaker 11: Laura Gillen, John Davis of North Carolina, Laurie Gillen is

2539
02:29:14,640 --> 02:29:18,960
Speaker 11: New York, Tom Swosey of New York and Vicente Gonzales

2540
02:29:19,040 --> 02:29:20,080
Speaker 11: of Texas.

2541
02:29:21,120 --> 02:29:21,680
Speaker 5: This is it.

2542
02:29:21,680 --> 02:29:23,960
Speaker 3: There's not a position that he's unique to.

2543
02:29:24,120 --> 02:29:27,920
Speaker 11: Jeffrey's right, Like, this's this idea that like, perhaps there

2544
02:29:27,959 --> 02:29:30,480
Speaker 11: needs to be some reform of ICE, but bit abolishing

2545
02:29:30,520 --> 02:29:33,480
Speaker 11: it would go far too far. Other Democrats have introduced

2546
02:29:33,520 --> 02:29:36,600
Speaker 11: an act which would essentially move funding from ICE to

2547
02:29:36,840 --> 02:29:41,120
Speaker 11: local law enforcement. So it would take that seventy five

2548
02:29:41,200 --> 02:29:44,640
Speaker 11: billion dollar budget allocation to ICE and move it to

2549
02:29:45,280 --> 02:29:45,879
Speaker 11: local cops.

2550
02:29:45,959 --> 02:29:46,039
Speaker 9: Right.

2551
02:29:46,120 --> 02:29:50,000
Speaker 11: This is called the Providing Useful Budgets for Localities to

2552
02:29:50,240 --> 02:29:55,800
Speaker 11: invest in cops by substituting six appropriations from federal enforcement

2553
02:29:55,959 --> 02:29:57,240
Speaker 11: to yield results Act.

2554
02:29:58,280 --> 02:30:00,440
Speaker 3: Holy shit, what are.

2555
02:30:00,280 --> 02:30:02,720
Speaker 5: These people's favorabilities? Like negative one.

2556
02:30:02,720 --> 02:30:07,680
Speaker 11: Trillion for sent Yeah, it's what we call a backronym

2557
02:30:08,280 --> 02:30:10,520
Speaker 11: in that they have started with the word public safety

2558
02:30:10,720 --> 02:30:14,280
Speaker 11: and then made a really horrendous attempt turning that into

2559
02:30:14,280 --> 02:30:17,840
Speaker 11: an acronym. There is also like a wing of the

2560
02:30:17,879 --> 02:30:22,240
Speaker 11: Democratic Party right there on the left which is more

2561
02:30:22,320 --> 02:30:25,600
Speaker 11: forthright about abolishing ICE. His clip of AOC talking about

2562
02:30:25,720 --> 02:30:28,240
Speaker 11: why I should be abolished, and this is at an

2563
02:30:28,320 --> 02:30:31,080
Speaker 11: event in Queen's Yeah, ICE is.

2564
02:30:31,080 --> 02:30:36,080
Speaker 8: A very young agency relative to many others enforcements of

2565
02:30:36,120 --> 02:30:42,960
Speaker 8: people who committed crimes that were undocumented or had visas

2566
02:30:43,280 --> 02:30:45,520
Speaker 8: used to be under the Department of Justice. And in

2567
02:30:45,600 --> 02:30:48,120
Speaker 8: the Department of Justice, if someone wants to come to

2568
02:30:48,200 --> 02:30:50,920
Speaker 8: your house, you need a judge. You mean, you need

2569
02:30:50,959 --> 02:30:54,640
Speaker 8: an entire judicial process, You need a warrant to ensure

2570
02:30:54,640 --> 02:30:57,359
Speaker 8: that your constitutional liberty should take are respected.

2571
02:30:58,280 --> 02:30:58,960
Speaker 12: You need all of it.

2572
02:30:59,440 --> 02:31:02,480
Speaker 8: What they did was that they took ICE out, well,

2573
02:31:02,520 --> 02:31:05,720
Speaker 8: they took Immigration Enforcement out of the DOJ, which had

2574
02:31:05,840 --> 02:31:08,640
Speaker 8: very tight rains on what you're allowed to do. They

2575
02:31:08,760 --> 02:31:12,080
Speaker 8: take that they put it into this new agency that

2576
02:31:12,120 --> 02:31:13,960
Speaker 8: they put at the time, which is a Department of

2577
02:31:14,000 --> 02:31:16,960
Speaker 8: Homeland Security. First of all, in what world does FEMA

2578
02:31:17,240 --> 02:31:20,160
Speaker 8: belong under the same umbrella as ICE. It makes no

2579
02:31:20,560 --> 02:31:26,800
Speaker 8: sense at all, no sense at all. And what happened

2580
02:31:27,080 --> 02:31:30,760
Speaker 8: is that once you take that enforcement piece out of

2581
02:31:30,840 --> 02:31:35,360
Speaker 8: that agency, they then start to answer to nobody, even

2582
02:31:35,400 --> 02:31:39,440
Speaker 8: though ICE technically, statutorily their responsibility is just supposed to

2583
02:31:39,480 --> 02:31:45,560
Speaker 8: be on immigration enforcement. They are now expanding their data

2584
02:31:45,600 --> 02:31:49,200
Speaker 8: collection to US citizens, to everyone on this soil. They

2585
02:31:49,240 --> 02:31:52,760
Speaker 8: are waiving these phones around and saying that they're implementing

2586
02:31:52,840 --> 02:31:57,120
Speaker 8: facial recognition technology to a centralized database. We have to

2587
02:31:57,240 --> 02:32:00,920
Speaker 8: fight this tooth and nail. We need to defund We

2588
02:32:01,120 --> 02:32:05,200
Speaker 8: need to not allow this to be collected by private companies.

2589
02:32:05,600 --> 02:32:07,160
Speaker 8: A lot of what we need to do is not

2590
02:32:07,360 --> 02:32:11,320
Speaker 8: just revisit Section seven oh two. We need to abolish ICE,

2591
02:32:12,560 --> 02:32:15,920
Speaker 8: and we need to have comprehensive.

2592
02:32:15,320 --> 02:32:16,680
Speaker 9: Changes block that up.

2593
02:32:19,000 --> 02:32:21,400
Speaker 3: One thing I do want to note about her statements

2594
02:32:21,480 --> 02:32:23,959
Speaker 3: is that during the appropriations process, she did give statements

2595
02:32:24,320 --> 02:32:27,880
Speaker 3: about how she was pushing to defund ICE as an agency,

2596
02:32:28,320 --> 02:32:31,240
Speaker 3: and this did cause a reaction from some i'll call

2597
02:32:31,280 --> 02:32:34,680
Speaker 3: them over the online leftists, claiming that it had changed

2598
02:32:34,720 --> 02:32:38,080
Speaker 3: positions from wanting to abolish to defund, that this is

2599
02:32:38,440 --> 02:32:40,160
Speaker 3: some sort of slide, And then she then had to

2600
02:32:40,480 --> 02:32:43,920
Speaker 3: follow up with saying, well, currently, the way to restrict

2601
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:46,440
Speaker 3: ICE and lead to abolishing it is through defunding it.

2602
02:32:46,680 --> 02:32:49,520
Speaker 3: So that's what we're doing through the appropriations process. No,

2603
02:32:49,720 --> 02:32:51,520
Speaker 3: my position has not changed. I still think that the

2604
02:32:51,560 --> 02:32:53,120
Speaker 3: agency should be abolished.

2605
02:32:53,480 --> 02:32:53,680
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2606
02:32:54,520 --> 02:32:54,720
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2607
02:33:07,600 --> 02:33:09,880
Speaker 2: There's a broad issue we had, which was that at

2608
02:33:09,920 --> 02:33:12,120
Speaker 2: the end of twenty twenty, as a result of all

2609
02:33:12,160 --> 02:33:14,920
Speaker 2: of the federal agents that were in American cities and

2610
02:33:15,000 --> 02:33:18,920
Speaker 2: had been video brutalizing citizens and places like Portland, there

2611
02:33:19,000 --> 02:33:22,520
Speaker 2: was a lot of anger about DHS. In particular, I

2612
02:33:22,560 --> 02:33:25,040
Speaker 2: wrote a column for Business Insider about like, look, this

2613
02:33:25,920 --> 02:33:28,480
Speaker 2: agency is going to remain under Biden, but if we

2614
02:33:28,600 --> 02:33:31,600
Speaker 2: don't cut the legs out from under the entire agency,

2615
02:33:31,680 --> 02:33:35,000
Speaker 2: it's basically set up to be the president's secret police.

2616
02:33:35,840 --> 02:33:40,360
Speaker 2: And broadly speaking, the Democrats didn't do anything to stop it.

2617
02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:42,720
Speaker 2: But I also, like, I guess where I am on

2618
02:33:42,840 --> 02:33:48,039
Speaker 2: this is I think it's kind of counterproductive at this point.

2619
02:33:48,440 --> 02:33:51,200
Speaker 2: The failures of the Biden administration, I think are quite

2620
02:33:51,280 --> 02:33:54,080
Speaker 2: manifest in what the Trump administration is doing right now.

2621
02:33:54,879 --> 02:33:58,160
Speaker 2: And what I want to focus on is the fact

2622
02:33:58,200 --> 02:34:01,439
Speaker 2: that we've had, in the space of several months, Americans

2623
02:34:01,920 --> 02:34:05,360
Speaker 2: become more than twice as likely to support abolishing ICE,

2624
02:34:06,240 --> 02:34:09,280
Speaker 2: which is both a fragile coalition because the fact that

2625
02:34:09,320 --> 02:34:12,360
Speaker 2: the number has changed so rapidly means that it could

2626
02:34:12,400 --> 02:34:15,760
Speaker 2: potentially change back. Like, I don't feel solid in counting

2627
02:34:16,080 --> 02:34:19,520
Speaker 2: on that to be the permanent state of affairs, but

2628
02:34:19,800 --> 02:34:24,039
Speaker 2: it introduces an opportunity, and it's an opportunity to build

2629
02:34:24,480 --> 02:34:28,520
Speaker 2: support to destroy this agency. And I think it's probably

2630
02:34:28,560 --> 02:34:31,520
Speaker 2: too much to hope for DHS as a whole and

2631
02:34:31,640 --> 02:34:35,160
Speaker 2: anything close to the near term. But the fact that

2632
02:34:35,480 --> 02:34:39,200
Speaker 2: during the Biden administration so much got punted on. I

2633
02:34:39,240 --> 02:34:42,400
Speaker 2: don't know, like we're past that. We have the opportunity, now,

2634
02:34:43,000 --> 02:34:46,240
Speaker 2: we have the anger. Now I do I retain my

2635
02:34:46,400 --> 02:34:48,240
Speaker 2: worry And I would say almost one of my biggest

2636
02:34:48,240 --> 02:34:51,240
Speaker 2: political fears is that twenty twenty six and twenty twenty

2637
02:34:51,240 --> 02:34:53,800
Speaker 2: eight go well for Democrats. They do again what happened

2638
02:34:53,840 --> 02:34:55,200
Speaker 2: under the Biden administration.

2639
02:34:55,520 --> 02:34:57,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, and they leave all these things intact.

2640
02:34:57,720 --> 02:35:00,320
Speaker 2: But one of the big differences that we haven't right

2641
02:35:00,400 --> 02:35:03,480
Speaker 2: now is that at no point was abolishing ice polling

2642
02:35:03,520 --> 02:35:06,160
Speaker 2: the way it is right now during the Biden or

2643
02:35:06,200 --> 02:35:10,520
Speaker 2: the first Trump administration. Yeah, And I think we have

2644
02:35:10,640 --> 02:35:13,480
Speaker 2: to take advantage of that. There's momentum right now, Like

2645
02:35:13,600 --> 02:35:14,720
Speaker 2: this is a crucial.

2646
02:35:14,440 --> 02:35:16,440
Speaker 11: Time, not just like we're talking here in terms of

2647
02:35:16,600 --> 02:35:19,800
Speaker 11: like abolishing ice moves us back to the two thousand

2648
02:35:19,840 --> 02:35:24,120
Speaker 11: and three norm right, Like what it doesn't do is

2649
02:35:24,200 --> 02:35:26,760
Speaker 11: fixed the fundamental issue here, which is that there are

2650
02:35:26,920 --> 02:35:30,040
Speaker 11: not legal pathways for people to come to the US,

2651
02:35:30,720 --> 02:35:33,440
Speaker 11: and there need to be. And like I think like

2652
02:35:33,600 --> 02:35:35,600
Speaker 11: now is the time for people who are involved in

2653
02:35:35,680 --> 02:35:40,520
Speaker 11: democratic politics right to agitate for like a genuine reform package.

2654
02:35:40,640 --> 02:35:43,200
Speaker 11: I don't think we will ever see support like this

2655
02:35:43,400 --> 02:35:49,680
Speaker 11: again for legalization of undocumented people, for dreamers, right, or

2656
02:35:49,800 --> 02:35:54,039
Speaker 11: people who are impacted by deferred action for childhood arrivals,

2657
02:35:54,480 --> 02:35:57,680
Speaker 11: which is a policy that became to place under Obama. Like,

2658
02:35:57,920 --> 02:36:02,120
Speaker 11: now is the time for substeps actual immigration reform. I

2659
02:36:03,160 --> 02:36:05,119
Speaker 11: say this knowing that this will not fix a problem.

2660
02:36:05,480 --> 02:36:08,480
Speaker 11: Like more than most people you know, I have seen

2661
02:36:08,520 --> 02:36:12,640
Speaker 11: the horrors of our immigration system firsthand, but like there

2662
02:36:12,800 --> 02:36:16,080
Speaker 11: is a moment right now that we could change things.

2663
02:36:16,000 --> 02:36:16,760
Speaker 7: For the better.

2664
02:36:17,240 --> 02:36:21,440
Speaker 11: And I share roberts worry that if Democrats get like

2665
02:36:21,480 --> 02:36:24,880
Speaker 11: an easy win even in the midterms, that we might

2666
02:36:25,000 --> 02:36:28,400
Speaker 11: not get that. And like what we saw rounder Biden

2667
02:36:28,600 --> 02:36:31,480
Speaker 11: was a big pointer to what we're seeing under Trump

2668
02:36:31,640 --> 02:36:37,280
Speaker 11: that essentially the DHS was almost impossible for him to control. Yeah,

2669
02:36:37,800 --> 02:36:40,279
Speaker 11: in that he acquiesced to oads, he is still responsible

2670
02:36:40,280 --> 02:36:41,520
Speaker 11: for them, like the buckstops with him.

2671
02:36:41,560 --> 02:36:42,119
Speaker 7: He's president.

2672
02:36:42,320 --> 02:36:45,520
Speaker 11: I'm not certain that he planned it, but nonetheless it

2673
02:36:45,640 --> 02:36:47,680
Speaker 11: continued to happen for months and months and months out

2674
02:36:47,720 --> 02:36:51,040
Speaker 11: of his presidency, right, Like it was very obvious the

2675
02:36:51,120 --> 02:36:53,360
Speaker 11: way this was going to go if we got another

2676
02:36:53,640 --> 02:36:58,760
Speaker 11: Trump presidency, and if they do that again, we're just

2677
02:36:58,800 --> 02:37:00,959
Speaker 11: setting the table for things to get worse again.

2678
02:37:01,879 --> 02:37:06,080
Speaker 2: Right, And I think James, the task before us is twofold, right,

2679
02:37:06,160 --> 02:37:09,840
Speaker 2: because on one hand, we have to reform the system

2680
02:37:09,920 --> 02:37:14,640
Speaker 2: by which people gain legal acceptance to live in this country,

2681
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:17,760
Speaker 2: and that also includes I think there needs to be

2682
02:37:17,800 --> 02:37:22,840
Speaker 2: a push for some sort of federal law that will

2683
02:37:22,879 --> 02:37:25,840
Speaker 2: make it impossible or at least much harder, to reverse

2684
02:37:26,440 --> 02:37:30,000
Speaker 2: these acceptances and to do things like nullify or cancel

2685
02:37:30,160 --> 02:37:32,880
Speaker 2: green cards and permanent residency like the administration is doing

2686
02:37:33,000 --> 02:37:36,200
Speaker 2: right now. Like both, we need increased pathways and we

2687
02:37:36,280 --> 02:37:40,000
Speaker 2: need increased resilience to promise people that hey, if you

2688
02:37:40,160 --> 02:37:43,000
Speaker 2: go through all of these hoops to become a legal

2689
02:37:43,080 --> 02:37:46,560
Speaker 2: resident or a citizen or whatever, it can't just get

2690
02:37:46,640 --> 02:37:49,640
Speaker 2: pulled away the next time a Republican wins office.

2691
02:37:49,959 --> 02:37:50,199
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2692
02:37:50,840 --> 02:37:52,840
Speaker 2: And then on the other side of things, you have

2693
02:37:53,040 --> 02:37:59,240
Speaker 2: this vast, uncontrollable militant agency built as the armed wing

2694
02:37:59,360 --> 02:38:02,199
Speaker 2: of the president. And see that has to be destroyed

2695
02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:06,080
Speaker 2: because it can't exist in a democracy.

2696
02:38:06,160 --> 02:38:07,480
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's no compatible.

2697
02:38:07,600 --> 02:38:09,640
Speaker 2: And then you have I mean, I would extend that

2698
02:38:09,720 --> 02:38:12,000
Speaker 2: to DHS as a whole, but it's my same issue

2699
02:38:12,040 --> 02:38:14,520
Speaker 2: with like if we can defund ICE. Right now, I'm

2700
02:38:14,800 --> 02:38:17,160
Speaker 2: always in favor of taking away some of their money.

2701
02:38:17,440 --> 02:38:19,240
Speaker 2: That's not the extent of what I think should happen

2702
02:38:19,280 --> 02:38:22,440
Speaker 2: to ICE. It's just a yeah, like it's a salient, right,

2703
02:38:22,600 --> 02:38:24,760
Speaker 2: Like you have to look at it that way. Like

2704
02:38:24,879 --> 02:38:27,520
Speaker 2: it it would be as if you're you're like, well,

2705
02:38:27,879 --> 02:38:30,480
Speaker 2: it's not worth winning the Battle of Stalingrad because that

2706
02:38:30,560 --> 02:38:33,240
Speaker 2: doesn't give us Berlin. It's like, well, but these are steps,

2707
02:38:33,360 --> 02:38:36,560
Speaker 2: you know, you try to damage and reduce the agency's

2708
02:38:36,680 --> 02:38:40,080
Speaker 2: power and ability to function, Yeah, while you're continuing. And

2709
02:38:40,160 --> 02:38:42,240
Speaker 2: I guess the worry about that too is that if

2710
02:38:42,280 --> 02:38:44,200
Speaker 2: you do defund ICE, if they because we've had some

2711
02:38:44,680 --> 02:38:47,800
Speaker 2: Trump has made a couple comments about worrying that, like

2712
02:38:48,040 --> 02:38:51,200
Speaker 2: we need to reduce kind of the tempo at which

2713
02:38:51,240 --> 02:38:54,400
Speaker 2: ICE is operating because it's bad for them. So that

2714
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,120
Speaker 2: is kind of one of my concerns that maybe if they,

2715
02:38:57,520 --> 02:38:59,840
Speaker 2: if they pull back on the throttle a little bit,

2716
02:39:00,320 --> 02:39:04,640
Speaker 2: the rage will decline enough that there's not this kind

2717
02:39:04,680 --> 02:39:08,720
Speaker 2: of motivation behind abolishing. But I feel like that's just

2718
02:39:08,760 --> 02:39:10,959
Speaker 2: a fear you kind of have to eat, as opposed

2719
02:39:11,000 --> 02:39:14,960
Speaker 2: to not trying to stop and reduce the harms the

2720
02:39:15,040 --> 02:39:17,480
Speaker 2: agency does in the immediate term while you're working long

2721
02:39:17,560 --> 02:39:21,520
Speaker 2: term for abolition. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did want to

2722
02:39:21,600 --> 02:39:25,720
Speaker 2: talk a little about other numbers, because immigration is obviously

2723
02:39:25,959 --> 02:39:28,800
Speaker 2: a major issue for American voters. It's an issue people

2724
02:39:29,040 --> 02:39:30,760
Speaker 2: pick who they're going to vote for the presidency on.

2725
02:39:30,879 --> 02:39:33,360
Speaker 2: It's one of them, but it's not the main one.

2726
02:39:33,520 --> 02:39:36,960
Speaker 2: As a general rule, throughout most of modern political history,

2727
02:39:37,840 --> 02:39:41,440
Speaker 2: the kind of the top issue for Americans is the economy.

2728
02:39:41,720 --> 02:39:44,640
Speaker 2: And if the economy is bad, it is very hard

2729
02:39:44,720 --> 02:39:47,280
Speaker 2: for your party to stay in power. If the economy

2730
02:39:47,400 --> 02:39:49,600
Speaker 2: is good, it is a lot easier for your party

2731
02:39:49,640 --> 02:39:52,920
Speaker 2: to stay in power. Right, Like, these are fairly basic

2732
02:39:53,040 --> 02:39:55,680
Speaker 2: facts of political life in the United States, always with

2733
02:39:55,840 --> 02:39:58,840
Speaker 2: some caveats, but that it bears looking at how do

2734
02:39:58,959 --> 02:40:02,160
Speaker 2: Americans feel about the economy and who do they blame

2735
02:40:02,280 --> 02:40:04,760
Speaker 2: for the fact that they feel badly about the economy?

2736
02:40:05,440 --> 02:40:08,480
Speaker 2: And per Politico, which carried out a recent survey, about

2737
02:40:08,520 --> 02:40:10,880
Speaker 2: forty six percent of Americans say the cost of living

2738
02:40:11,320 --> 02:40:14,000
Speaker 2: is the worst they can remember it ever being. This

2739
02:40:14,160 --> 02:40:17,039
Speaker 2: includes thirty seven percent of people who voted for Trump

2740
02:40:17,120 --> 02:40:22,400
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty four and Americans pretty like significantly agree

2741
02:40:23,000 --> 02:40:26,320
Speaker 2: that this is a Trump problem. Inflation, the fact that

2742
02:40:26,520 --> 02:40:30,039
Speaker 2: they can't afford things is on him because he's the present. Again,

2743
02:40:30,200 --> 02:40:34,080
Speaker 2: forty six percent of Americans say it's Trump's economy and

2744
02:40:34,160 --> 02:40:38,440
Speaker 2: his administration is responsible for rising costs. And this is

2745
02:40:38,520 --> 02:40:43,600
Speaker 2: true both among Republicans and Democrats, which is very interesting

2746
02:40:43,720 --> 02:40:46,080
Speaker 2: to me. A percentage of Americans, based on the vote

2747
02:40:46,080 --> 02:40:50,120
Speaker 2: in the twenty four election, fifty three percent of Harris

2748
02:40:50,240 --> 02:40:52,480
Speaker 2: voters in twenty twenty four say the cost of living

2749
02:40:52,600 --> 02:40:54,440
Speaker 2: is the worst they've seen it, and again, thirty seven

2750
02:40:54,480 --> 02:40:57,240
Speaker 2: percent of Trump voters in twenty twenty four feel the

2751
02:40:57,320 --> 02:41:00,800
Speaker 2: same way. So that is it's an example of something

2752
02:41:00,879 --> 02:41:03,720
Speaker 2: that we've talked about and wondered about on the show

2753
02:41:03,760 --> 02:41:06,240
Speaker 2: a lot, which is like how much does reality break

2754
02:41:06,360 --> 02:41:09,600
Speaker 2: through the fever swamps? And this is suggesting that, like

2755
02:41:09,720 --> 02:41:14,160
Speaker 2: to a pretty solid degree, that actually Trump is I

2756
02:41:14,280 --> 02:41:16,920
Speaker 2: still think he's got a floor of somewhere around thirty

2757
02:41:16,920 --> 02:41:19,400
Speaker 2: percent of Americans who will follow him into the pits

2758
02:41:19,440 --> 02:41:22,200
Speaker 2: of hell, even if it means shoveling themselves into it.

2759
02:41:22,879 --> 02:41:25,680
Speaker 2: But that number used to be like forty percent, right,

2760
02:41:25,840 --> 02:41:29,119
Speaker 2: and it does seem to be declining. This is being

2761
02:41:29,200 --> 02:41:33,360
Speaker 2: treated as a five alarm fire among the Trump White House,

2762
02:41:33,959 --> 02:41:36,080
Speaker 2: which is interesting me for a couple of reasons. You know,

2763
02:41:36,240 --> 02:41:39,560
Speaker 2: anytime you talk with especially people and left about but

2764
02:41:39,640 --> 02:41:42,800
Speaker 2: also increasingly a lot of Democrats about the midterm elections

2765
02:41:42,840 --> 02:41:44,920
Speaker 2: in the twenty twenty eight elections, I think you have

2766
02:41:44,959 --> 02:41:46,600
Speaker 2: to deal with his people saying, but are there going

2767
02:41:46,640 --> 02:41:47,320
Speaker 2: to be elections?

2768
02:41:47,600 --> 02:41:47,720
Speaker 11: Right?

2769
02:41:48,480 --> 02:41:52,160
Speaker 2: And you know it's I don't dismiss those concerns out

2770
02:41:52,160 --> 02:41:54,880
Speaker 2: of hand, obviously in part because the administration is talking

2771
02:41:54,959 --> 02:41:57,400
Speaker 2: right now about having ice agents and polling places, right,

2772
02:41:57,760 --> 02:42:00,920
Speaker 2: you do have to acknowledge that as a con But

2773
02:42:01,040 --> 02:42:02,920
Speaker 2: at the same time, I think if you're looking at

2774
02:42:02,959 --> 02:42:06,080
Speaker 2: this rationally, you have to note that the Trump administration

2775
02:42:06,240 --> 02:42:09,080
Speaker 2: internally is acting as if there will be elections and

2776
02:42:09,200 --> 02:42:12,240
Speaker 2: that those will be competitive elections. They are worried about

2777
02:42:12,280 --> 02:42:15,240
Speaker 2: the economy, they are worried about their polling, and they

2778
02:42:15,280 --> 02:42:18,000
Speaker 2: are taking actions to try to mitigate the worries that

2779
02:42:18,080 --> 02:42:20,240
Speaker 2: they have, which they wouldn't be doing if they were

2780
02:42:20,320 --> 02:42:23,280
Speaker 2: already sure there's never going to be another election, right,

2781
02:42:23,360 --> 02:42:25,480
Speaker 2: And that is important to remember. It doesn't mean there's

2782
02:42:25,520 --> 02:42:27,880
Speaker 2: not a danger, doesn't mean they won't try shit if

2783
02:42:27,920 --> 02:42:31,120
Speaker 2: they lose but it does mean that they are treating

2784
02:42:31,240 --> 02:42:35,000
Speaker 2: these political issues as political issues that they have to

2785
02:42:35,120 --> 02:42:38,039
Speaker 2: deal with via messaging. There was an article in Fox

2786
02:42:38,120 --> 02:42:42,640
Speaker 2: News recently about Trump's team huddling to decide on midterm messaging.

2787
02:42:42,840 --> 02:42:45,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to quote from that now. The meeting, which

2788
02:42:45,160 --> 02:42:47,680
Speaker 2: was confirmed to Fox News by sources familiar with the gathering,

2789
02:42:47,760 --> 02:42:49,840
Speaker 2: was hosted by White House Chief of Staff Susie Wilds

2790
02:42:49,879 --> 02:42:52,400
Speaker 2: and Deputy Chief of Staff James Blair, who is steering

2791
02:42:52,400 --> 02:42:55,480
Speaker 2: Trump's political strategy. According to sources, the message during a

2792
02:42:55,560 --> 02:42:59,160
Speaker 2: slide presentation by chief polster and Chief Strategists and strategist

2793
02:42:59,200 --> 02:43:01,480
Speaker 2: Tourney Fabrizio, was that the economy will be the top

2794
02:43:01,520 --> 02:43:03,600
Speaker 2: issue in the minds of voters, and the White House

2795
02:43:03,680 --> 02:43:07,199
Speaker 2: needs to spotlight its efforts on easing affordability. The meeting

2796
02:43:07,280 --> 02:43:09,080
Speaker 2: was held as the GOP ares to defend their control

2797
02:43:09,120 --> 02:43:11,120
Speaker 2: of the Senate and their razor thin House majority in

2798
02:43:11,200 --> 02:43:15,240
Speaker 2: November's midterm elections. Republicans are also dealing with the presidents

2799
02:43:15,280 --> 02:43:18,560
Speaker 2: continued underwater approval ratings and a slew of surveys, including

2800
02:43:18,560 --> 02:43:21,680
Speaker 2: the latest Fox News pulling, that indicates Americans are pessimistic

2801
02:43:21,720 --> 02:43:26,120
Speaker 2: about the economy and publicly. The administration's claim is that

2802
02:43:26,200 --> 02:43:28,200
Speaker 2: Americans are happy with the economy. The economy is the

2803
02:43:28,240 --> 02:43:30,240
Speaker 2: best it's ever been. Look At how good the doo is.

2804
02:43:30,280 --> 02:43:34,879
Speaker 2: It's over fifty thousand, right. But everything we're hearing internally,

2805
02:43:35,200 --> 02:43:37,680
Speaker 2: like all of the reports that from people inside the

2806
02:43:37,720 --> 02:43:39,920
Speaker 2: administration about like what's going on day to day, is

2807
02:43:39,959 --> 02:43:42,240
Speaker 2: that they're wide awake and worried over the fact that

2808
02:43:42,360 --> 02:43:46,720
Speaker 2: their economic numbers are completely fucking dog shit. Now, what

2809
02:43:46,760 --> 02:43:50,720
Speaker 2: does this mean for the midterm elections? Well, very few

2810
02:43:50,760 --> 02:43:53,720
Speaker 2: people that I have found who are like credible analysts

2811
02:43:54,560 --> 02:43:58,000
Speaker 2: don't expect the Democrats to retake the House, right.

2812
02:43:58,520 --> 02:44:03,080
Speaker 3: Meaning, most credible analysts do think the Dems are likely

2813
02:44:03,240 --> 02:44:04,280
Speaker 3: to retake the House.

2814
02:44:06,040 --> 02:44:09,320
Speaker 2: That said, there's a fairly few people who expect a

2815
02:44:09,360 --> 02:44:14,000
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen style Democratic blowout among the professional bull watchers

2816
02:44:14,040 --> 02:44:18,000
Speaker 2: and stuff, which is, if you remember the Democrats flipped

2817
02:44:18,040 --> 02:44:22,160
Speaker 2: about forty one seats. There's a couple of reasons for this, right,

2818
02:44:22,520 --> 02:44:24,520
Speaker 2: And I found a good article in The Hill that's

2819
02:44:24,560 --> 02:44:29,960
Speaker 2: kind of analyzing like why we shouldn't be expecting some

2820
02:44:30,080 --> 02:44:32,680
Speaker 2: of the exuberants that you're seeing on social media about

2821
02:44:32,760 --> 02:44:35,440
Speaker 2: like early elections and how bad Trump's numbers are is

2822
02:44:35,520 --> 02:44:39,840
Speaker 2: maybe making people overly optimistic about like flipping all of

2823
02:44:40,000 --> 02:44:45,080
Speaker 2: Congress to Democratic control, which is not currently the likeliest outcome.

2824
02:44:45,200 --> 02:44:47,240
Speaker 2: And there's a couple of reasons for this. One of

2825
02:44:47,280 --> 02:44:50,039
Speaker 2: them is that as unpopular as Trump is, and I've

2826
02:44:50,120 --> 02:44:53,720
Speaker 2: hit on that quite a lot, the Democratic Party's overall

2827
02:44:53,840 --> 02:44:57,320
Speaker 2: favorability is at about thirty three percent, which is nine

2828
02:44:57,400 --> 02:45:01,760
Speaker 2: points lower than the Republican parties reability and you know,

2829
02:45:02,320 --> 02:45:04,240
Speaker 2: depending on the poll, five to ten points lower than

2830
02:45:04,240 --> 02:45:06,520
Speaker 2: Trump's own favorability. This is based on a Marquette Law

2831
02:45:06,520 --> 02:45:10,600
Speaker 2: School poll. Right, So Trump is very unpopular, so with

2832
02:45:10,680 --> 02:45:13,400
Speaker 2: the Republican Party. But people don't like the Democrats the

2833
02:45:13,440 --> 02:45:16,640
Speaker 2: Democratic Party as a whole. People like individual Democrats, a

2834
02:45:16,680 --> 02:45:18,680
Speaker 2: lot of people like their Congress person, a lot of

2835
02:45:18,720 --> 02:45:20,640
Speaker 2: people like whoever it is they want to see as

2836
02:45:20,680 --> 02:45:23,520
Speaker 2: the presidential candidate. You know, you can look at you know,

2837
02:45:23,640 --> 02:45:26,400
Speaker 2: you've got folks who really like Mamdani, are really like

2838
02:45:26,480 --> 02:45:30,640
Speaker 2: pritzkerp But as a whole, voters, including Democratic voters, don't

2839
02:45:30,680 --> 02:45:34,320
Speaker 2: feel very positively towards the Democratic Party, in many cases

2840
02:45:34,400 --> 02:45:37,280
Speaker 2: more negatively still than they feel about the Republican Party

2841
02:45:37,320 --> 02:45:40,440
Speaker 2: that started to turn around. But if you're kind of

2842
02:45:40,560 --> 02:45:42,920
Speaker 2: hoping that there's going to be like a full on

2843
02:45:43,080 --> 02:45:46,720
Speaker 2: switch that makes it immediately possible to successfully impeach President Trump,

2844
02:45:47,360 --> 02:45:51,520
Speaker 2: that is extraordinarily unlikely to come in twenty twenty six, right,

2845
02:45:51,560 --> 02:45:54,920
Speaker 2: which doesn't mean that it's unlikely to have a good result.

2846
02:45:55,280 --> 02:45:58,920
Speaker 2: Republicans losing control of Congress is a good result.

2847
02:45:59,320 --> 02:45:59,440
Speaker 8: Right.

2848
02:46:00,240 --> 02:46:02,480
Speaker 2: There's just a lot less. I mean, there's a lot less.

2849
02:46:02,520 --> 02:46:04,920
Speaker 2: Even if you're kind of taking the unfavorability of the

2850
02:46:04,959 --> 02:46:07,600
Speaker 2: Democratic Party out of it. There's a lot fewer seats

2851
02:46:07,800 --> 02:46:10,240
Speaker 2: up for grabs right now. In twenty eighteen, and when that,

2852
02:46:10,520 --> 02:46:13,800
Speaker 2: you know, the Democrats flipped forty one seats. There were

2853
02:46:13,800 --> 02:46:16,879
Speaker 2: seventy five competitive races this year. Heading into the midterms,

2854
02:46:17,360 --> 02:46:20,800
Speaker 2: there were only eighteen. Right, there's a lot less that

2855
02:46:20,959 --> 02:46:24,720
Speaker 2: can flip. And I don't think Republicans are likely to

2856
02:46:24,800 --> 02:46:29,000
Speaker 2: lose control of the Senate, right, And the polling shows

2857
02:46:29,080 --> 02:46:31,560
Speaker 2: things being pretty razor thin there. Democrats have about a

2858
02:46:31,600 --> 02:46:36,160
Speaker 2: four percent advantage according to economist you gov polling right

2859
02:46:36,280 --> 02:46:40,120
Speaker 2: now in the congressional midterms, and there's a three point

2860
02:46:40,200 --> 02:46:42,840
Speaker 2: margin of error, so you're looking at like a lead,

2861
02:46:43,000 --> 02:46:47,959
Speaker 2: but not enough of one for a complete fucking blowout, right,

2862
02:46:48,520 --> 02:46:51,200
Speaker 2: there has been some more positive data, like kind of

2863
02:46:51,360 --> 02:46:54,120
Speaker 2: right before we came on to record this, Like I

2864
02:46:54,280 --> 02:46:57,080
Speaker 2: looked at some charts by Focal Data that was kind

2865
02:46:57,080 --> 02:46:59,560
Speaker 2: of breaking down midterm voting and tensioned by groups and

2866
02:46:59,600 --> 02:47:03,320
Speaker 2: looking at like likely voters, And this is always kind

2867
02:47:03,360 --> 02:47:06,440
Speaker 2: of a little bit like voodoo, right in terms of

2868
02:47:06,520 --> 02:47:08,760
Speaker 2: how you're trying to, like, well, how likely is a

2869
02:47:08,920 --> 02:47:11,960
Speaker 2: likely voter and how do we like factor in realistically

2870
02:47:12,000 --> 02:47:15,120
Speaker 2: are they going to show up anyway? If you're kind

2871
02:47:15,160 --> 02:47:18,240
Speaker 2: of assuming that like people who self report as likely

2872
02:47:18,360 --> 02:47:20,880
Speaker 2: voters will only actually vote about a third of the time.

2873
02:47:21,560 --> 02:47:25,040
Speaker 2: Per this study, Democrats are ahead by about seven points

2874
02:47:25,080 --> 02:47:27,720
Speaker 2: in a generic house ballot. So you know, that's kind

2875
02:47:27,760 --> 02:47:30,560
Speaker 2: of where we are right now. I think we're looking

2876
02:47:30,680 --> 02:47:33,480
Speaker 2: at a midterm season that's going to go well for

2877
02:47:33,720 --> 02:47:36,440
Speaker 2: the Democrats. But I don't think we're looking at a

2878
02:47:36,560 --> 02:47:41,879
Speaker 2: midterm season that delivers us from the Republican Party being

2879
02:47:41,959 --> 02:47:45,960
Speaker 2: able to ram through legislation. I think our kind of

2880
02:47:46,040 --> 02:47:49,200
Speaker 2: best case scenario is one in which they have to

2881
02:47:50,080 --> 02:47:55,240
Speaker 2: give major concessions because the Democrats have you know, flipped

2882
02:47:55,640 --> 02:47:58,480
Speaker 2: the House at the very least like and that's big,

2883
02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:01,040
Speaker 2: but I don't think. I don't think Trump's going to

2884
02:48:01,080 --> 02:48:04,320
Speaker 2: get impeached starting January of next year.

2885
02:48:05,040 --> 02:48:05,240
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2886
02:48:05,760 --> 02:48:07,560
Speaker 12: The one thing I will say about the polling data

2887
02:48:07,680 --> 02:48:11,400
Speaker 12: is that so obviously Democrats tend to perform better in

2888
02:48:11,440 --> 02:48:13,880
Speaker 12: special elections because to vote in a special election, you

2889
02:48:14,000 --> 02:48:16,400
Speaker 12: have to be a higher interest voter. And that also

2890
02:48:17,120 --> 02:48:22,240
Speaker 12: special election cycles get driven by immediate like anger over stuff,

2891
02:48:22,280 --> 02:48:25,119
Speaker 12: and there's a bunch of different factors that dry special

2892
02:48:25,160 --> 02:48:29,000
Speaker 12: election turnout. And also the Democrats have been absolutely obliterating

2893
02:48:29,040 --> 02:48:31,800
Speaker 12: the Republicans in all the special elections that have been

2894
02:48:31,840 --> 02:48:35,520
Speaker 12: happening recently, or even in the cases where they're lose,

2895
02:48:35,560 --> 02:48:37,720
Speaker 12: they're losing by very small margins in.

2896
02:48:37,720 --> 02:48:39,280
Speaker 5: Places where Trump was winning blowouts.

2897
02:48:39,400 --> 02:48:41,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, so I think if you want to be optimistic,

2898
02:48:41,959 --> 02:48:46,000
Speaker 12: I think that's the case for optimism. But also, yeah, like,

2899
02:48:46,720 --> 02:48:48,480
Speaker 12: we're not going to have all of our problems magically

2900
02:48:48,560 --> 02:48:50,360
Speaker 12: solved by the mid terms.

2901
02:48:50,520 --> 02:48:53,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yes, to specify on that what you were saying,

2902
02:48:54,040 --> 02:48:58,440
Speaker 2: there was a special election in Tennessee and Republican Matt

2903
02:48:58,520 --> 02:49:02,480
Speaker 2: Van Epps beat the Democrat Often Bane by nine points,

2904
02:49:03,000 --> 02:49:05,920
Speaker 2: but Trump had won in twenty twenty four there by

2905
02:49:05,959 --> 02:49:06,840
Speaker 2: twenty two points.

2906
02:49:08,040 --> 02:49:10,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, and like like a few we talked about this

2907
02:49:10,200 --> 02:49:10,560
Speaker 5: on the show.

2908
02:49:10,560 --> 02:49:12,080
Speaker 12: But like last year there was there was an election

2909
02:49:12,200 --> 02:49:15,080
Speaker 12: in like a special election in western Iowa that Trump

2910
02:49:15,160 --> 02:49:17,039
Speaker 12: had won by double digits and the Democrats won by

2911
02:49:17,040 --> 02:49:22,440
Speaker 12: double digits, and that kind of thing shouldn't be happening.

2912
02:49:22,920 --> 02:49:23,640
Speaker 2: It sure shouldn't.

2913
02:49:23,800 --> 02:49:27,480
Speaker 5: No it is, And yeah, you know, so that's that's

2914
02:49:27,520 --> 02:49:28,600
Speaker 5: the optimistic case.

2915
02:49:28,879 --> 02:49:31,400
Speaker 2: And hey, like I've just come in saying like, hey,

2916
02:49:31,480 --> 02:49:35,080
Speaker 2: don't expect Congress to be completely flipped, but like, you know,

2917
02:49:35,280 --> 02:49:37,640
Speaker 2: it's the times are crazy. Who knows what else? Who

2918
02:49:37,680 --> 02:49:39,640
Speaker 2: knows how many more people Ice is going to murder?

2919
02:49:39,840 --> 02:49:42,920
Speaker 2: Who knows like what other like how bad the economy's

2920
02:49:42,959 --> 02:49:43,480
Speaker 2: going to get.

2921
02:49:43,959 --> 02:49:46,520
Speaker 5: We might have invaded Canada by then, Like who knows.

2922
02:49:47,760 --> 02:49:50,760
Speaker 2: Anything's on the table, anything's still on the table. We're

2923
02:49:50,840 --> 02:49:53,640
Speaker 2: just kind of looking at shit from February.

2924
02:49:53,840 --> 02:49:55,760
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, and some of this shit will depend on

2925
02:49:55,959 --> 02:50:00,960
Speaker 11: like what atrocities they commit in the week and days

2926
02:50:01,520 --> 02:50:04,800
Speaker 11: before the midterm election. Right then, I think we see

2927
02:50:05,040 --> 02:50:08,640
Speaker 11: surges around certain the killing of Rene Good, the killing

2928
02:50:08,680 --> 02:50:11,800
Speaker 11: of Alex pretty right. We see those things shift public

2929
02:50:11,879 --> 02:50:19,400
Speaker 11: opinion dramatically, and the ongoing snatching of immigrants and deportations

2930
02:50:19,440 --> 02:50:21,400
Speaker 11: and sending people back to places where they be tortured

2931
02:50:21,400 --> 02:50:26,040
Speaker 11: and killed. Like that's kind of the background and it

2932
02:50:26,120 --> 02:50:29,000
Speaker 11: makes people angry, but like it's these these these specific

2933
02:50:29,120 --> 02:50:46,080
Speaker 11: actions which seem to shift public opinion dramatically. All Right,

2934
02:50:46,200 --> 02:50:49,199
Speaker 11: So on that topic, I guess we should talk about

2935
02:50:49,240 --> 02:50:52,800
Speaker 11: the quote unquote shutdown, and specifically the shutdown of the

2936
02:50:52,840 --> 02:50:55,440
Speaker 11: Department of Homeland Security. Right. I guess the first thing

2937
02:50:55,520 --> 02:50:57,800
Speaker 11: to clarify is this isn't a government shut down in

2938
02:50:57,840 --> 02:50:59,800
Speaker 11: the sense of the shutdown we saw last year, right

2939
02:50:59,840 --> 02:51:02,160
Speaker 11: that lasted like forty plus days.

2940
02:51:02,640 --> 02:51:04,360
Speaker 2: Right, It's a partial shutdown.

2941
02:51:05,160 --> 02:51:06,480
Speaker 7: It's a partial shutdown.

2942
02:51:06,840 --> 02:51:08,840
Speaker 11: What's happening right now is the Democrats are holding up

2943
02:51:08,879 --> 02:51:11,840
Speaker 11: further funding for DHS until the administration agrees to some.

2944
02:51:12,080 --> 02:51:13,760
Speaker 7: Concessions that they have asked for.

2945
02:51:14,840 --> 02:51:19,200
Speaker 11: This is unlikely to impact ICE and CBP a very

2946
02:51:19,240 --> 02:51:22,760
Speaker 11: great deal for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the Tax

2947
02:51:22,840 --> 02:51:26,720
Speaker 11: and Spending Cuts Bill right, twenty twenty five bill funded

2948
02:51:26,800 --> 02:51:33,039
Speaker 11: them to an absolutely unfathomable degree, I think sixty five

2949
02:51:33,120 --> 02:51:37,360
Speaker 11: and seventy million, respectively. More quickly, it will affect other

2950
02:51:37,480 --> 02:51:43,199
Speaker 11: agencies under DHS Those includes Transport Security Administration, Federal Emergency

2951
02:51:43,280 --> 02:51:47,320
Speaker 11: Management Administration, the Secret Service, and the Coast Guard. Some

2952
02:51:47,560 --> 02:51:50,640
Speaker 11: TSA workers will be working that they will likely not

2953
02:51:50,959 --> 02:51:55,920
Speaker 11: be receiving pay. This is pretty common right that they're

2954
02:51:55,920 --> 02:51:59,080
Speaker 11: deemed does quite unquite essential workers, and that means that

2955
02:51:59,440 --> 02:52:01,760
Speaker 11: they will be expected to work. What we saw last

2956
02:52:01,840 --> 02:52:04,920
Speaker 11: time was that as the shutdown dragged on, people were

2957
02:52:04,959 --> 02:52:08,000
Speaker 11: calling in sick or not coming into work because they

2958
02:52:08,040 --> 02:52:10,640
Speaker 11: were taking other jobs right because they had bills to pay.

2959
02:52:11,360 --> 02:52:15,040
Speaker 11: The reason this is happening is because Democrats successfully managed

2960
02:52:15,080 --> 02:52:18,160
Speaker 11: to get Trump to separate DHS funding from another spending

2961
02:52:18,280 --> 02:52:21,280
Speaker 11: bill which passed through and founded the rest of the

2962
02:52:21,320 --> 02:52:26,280
Speaker 11: federal government. They are demanding an end to masking. I

2963
02:52:26,320 --> 02:52:29,280
Speaker 11: should clarify specifically like masking in the dents of law

2964
02:52:29,400 --> 02:52:33,200
Speaker 11: enforcement officers wearing gators over their faces, a return to

2965
02:52:33,240 --> 02:52:37,640
Speaker 11: opposites displaying their name, badge, and ID number, increased oversight

2966
02:52:37,680 --> 02:52:41,600
Speaker 11: of detention conditions, coordination with local law enforcement, and end

2967
02:52:41,640 --> 02:52:44,960
Speaker 11: to the detention of US citizens, targeted enforcement and not

2968
02:52:45,320 --> 02:52:50,120
Speaker 11: roving patrols, and a unified use of force and uniform

2969
02:52:50,240 --> 02:52:54,520
Speaker 11: conduct policy for CBP and ICE. And then an end

2970
02:52:54,720 --> 02:52:58,560
Speaker 11: to raids using Form two point fifteen and just going

2971
02:52:58,640 --> 02:53:00,920
Speaker 11: to note here them moving before we're going to refer

2972
02:53:01,040 --> 02:53:03,880
Speaker 11: to that using it it's that name, and not call

2973
02:53:03,920 --> 02:53:08,600
Speaker 11: it an administrative warrant because an administrative warrant like kind

2974
02:53:08,640 --> 02:53:11,320
Speaker 11: of implies the action of a judge. But these are

2975
02:53:11,440 --> 02:53:14,160
Speaker 11: forms that are filled out right that it is not

2976
02:53:14,840 --> 02:53:17,320
Speaker 11: the same early aspected as a warrant, and that's a

2977
02:53:17,400 --> 02:53:22,160
Speaker 11: judicial warrant. The Republican counterproposals so far have shown pretty

2978
02:53:22,200 --> 02:53:25,279
Speaker 11: little common ground on this, aside from other body cameras

2979
02:53:25,360 --> 02:53:30,080
Speaker 11: where Gnome did implement body cameras. As I said, ICE

2980
02:53:30,240 --> 02:53:33,960
Speaker 11: and CBP will continue doing what they do right. I

2981
02:53:34,200 --> 02:53:37,600
Speaker 11: was at the border on Saturday and I saw tons

2982
02:53:38,160 --> 02:53:42,880
Speaker 11: of CBP patrols. They do not seem to have slowed

2983
02:53:42,959 --> 02:53:47,640
Speaker 11: down with their wall construction. That that may overtime slow down.

2984
02:53:47,840 --> 02:53:50,160
Speaker 11: They won't be paying like the workers week by week

2985
02:53:50,240 --> 02:53:52,879
Speaker 11: on those contracts. They will be paying a contractor who

2986
02:53:52,920 --> 02:53:55,440
Speaker 11: might be paying a subcontractor, so that would take time

2987
02:53:55,600 --> 02:53:59,360
Speaker 11: to slow down. The things that will slow down are

2988
02:53:59,480 --> 02:54:03,520
Speaker 11: things like the oversight functions to DHS, potentially administrative and

2989
02:54:03,720 --> 02:54:06,720
Speaker 11: hiring functions, things like that, right.

2990
02:54:06,640 --> 02:54:08,800
Speaker 7: But the actual like on the ground patrolling.

2991
02:54:09,000 --> 02:54:12,440
Speaker 11: Most of those people are deemed as essential workers, so

2992
02:54:12,640 --> 02:54:16,120
Speaker 11: it seems so undlikely that we will see, for instance,

2993
02:54:16,240 --> 02:54:20,520
Speaker 11: fewer CBP patrols at the border or fewer ero iscera

2994
02:54:20,640 --> 02:54:24,360
Speaker 11: agents like tasked with doing these ongoing raids. So yeah,

2995
02:54:24,440 --> 02:54:26,840
Speaker 11: talking about DHS, I want to talk a little bit

2996
02:54:26,879 --> 02:54:29,160
Speaker 11: more about the Coast Guard. I think it's likely that

2997
02:54:29,280 --> 02:54:31,480
Speaker 11: some people won't be aware that the Coast Guard is

2998
02:54:31,520 --> 02:54:34,680
Speaker 11: an element of the DHS. They're also a branch of

2999
02:54:34,720 --> 02:54:36,720
Speaker 11: the military, right they're the only branch of the military

3000
02:54:36,720 --> 02:54:40,760
Speaker 11: that's under the DHS. Yes, so they like considered veterans,

3001
02:54:40,800 --> 02:54:45,080
Speaker 11: but they're not on the DoD or the DOW as

3002
02:54:45,120 --> 02:54:48,120
Speaker 11: you can now call it. The NBC has a piece

3003
02:54:48,320 --> 02:54:51,400
Speaker 11: suggesting that there is, I guess a split in the

3004
02:54:51,440 --> 02:54:54,959
Speaker 11: Coast Guard between lower ranks and higher ranks, and specifically

3005
02:54:55,120 --> 02:54:58,560
Speaker 11: they're talking about feeling that Coast Guard is moving away

3006
02:54:58,680 --> 02:55:01,680
Speaker 11: from its court mission, which is search and rescue. They

3007
02:55:01,760 --> 02:55:05,000
Speaker 11: highlight one incident in February of last year when a

3008
02:55:05,080 --> 02:55:08,760
Speaker 11: Coast guardsman went overboard and a Coast Guard See one

3009
02:55:08,879 --> 02:55:13,080
Speaker 11: thirty was detailed to participate in the search for that

3010
02:55:13,200 --> 02:55:13,880
Speaker 11: Coast guardsmen.

3011
02:55:14,040 --> 02:55:14,160
Speaker 5: Right.

3012
02:55:14,800 --> 02:55:17,320
Speaker 11: It had previously been detailed for a deportation flight, but

3013
02:55:17,440 --> 02:55:19,680
Speaker 11: it was really tasked to assist with the search. According

3014
02:55:19,720 --> 02:55:23,640
Speaker 11: to the Peace quote, non verbally instructed the acting Commandant

3015
02:55:23,720 --> 02:55:27,480
Speaker 11: of the Coast Guard, Admiral Kevin Lunday, to pull the

3016
02:55:27,560 --> 02:55:29,959
Speaker 11: plane off the search and rescue mission so it would

3017
02:55:30,000 --> 02:55:32,640
Speaker 11: not miss the immigrant flight as part of DHS's so

3018
02:55:32,760 --> 02:55:36,440
Speaker 11: called alien expulsion operations. According to two US officials and

3019
02:55:36,480 --> 02:55:39,680
Speaker 11: a Coastguard official, as a result, what happened is that

3020
02:55:39,760 --> 02:55:43,080
Speaker 11: local Coast Guard officials in San Diego scrambled to find

3021
02:55:43,120 --> 02:55:46,720
Speaker 11: two C twenty seven's that could fulfill that deportation flight.

3022
02:55:47,520 --> 02:55:49,840
Speaker 11: In doing so, that freed out the sea one thirty

3023
02:55:50,000 --> 02:55:52,200
Speaker 11: to then go return to participate in the search.

3024
02:55:52,320 --> 02:55:52,440
Speaker 9: Right.

3025
02:55:52,720 --> 02:55:55,480
Speaker 11: They did continue searching, I believe, for one hundred and

3026
02:55:55,520 --> 02:55:58,600
Speaker 11: ninety hours, but they never found the missing Coast guardsmen.

3027
02:55:58,720 --> 02:56:03,240
Speaker 11: Right cannot and will never be able to conclusively prove

3028
02:56:03,400 --> 02:56:05,240
Speaker 11: that all of this back and forth with this C

3029
02:56:05,400 --> 02:56:09,080
Speaker 11: one thirty had any impact on that. But this incident

3030
02:56:09,120 --> 02:56:12,800
Speaker 11: has clearly had an impact on morale, and it suggested

3031
02:56:12,920 --> 02:56:15,280
Speaker 11: general shift in priorities away from search and rescue and

3032
02:56:15,360 --> 02:56:19,800
Speaker 11: towards doing more border enforcement. Right under NOME seven hundred

3033
02:56:19,800 --> 02:56:22,039
Speaker 11: and fifty flights have been redirected from their regular work

3034
02:56:22,080 --> 02:56:26,440
Speaker 11: to instead deport migrants. This comes after she removed a

3035
02:56:26,520 --> 02:56:29,760
Speaker 11: high ranking Coast Guard official from her house so that

3036
02:56:29,959 --> 02:56:33,680
Speaker 11: Nope could live at the house. Wait what Yeah, yeah,

3037
02:56:34,400 --> 02:56:36,840
Speaker 11: she kicked the Coastguard person out of their house.

3038
02:56:36,959 --> 02:56:37,959
Speaker 7: Yeah, this was last year.

3039
02:56:39,080 --> 02:56:43,920
Speaker 11: She moved with like very short notice she moved onto Ah, yeah.

3040
02:56:43,800 --> 02:56:44,800
Speaker 7: She moved onto a base.

3041
02:56:46,120 --> 02:56:50,480
Speaker 3: Yeah with Lewandowski right, that might be the case, goes

3042
02:56:50,760 --> 02:56:53,640
Speaker 3: there was like a few people in like the cabinet

3043
02:56:53,800 --> 02:56:54,240
Speaker 3: or orbit.

3044
02:56:54,400 --> 02:56:56,560
Speaker 11: Yes, yes, I thought you meant like they were cohabiting.

3045
02:56:56,959 --> 02:57:02,160
Speaker 11: Oh no, no, no, okay, yeah, okay, a full domestic life. Yeah, okay,

3046
02:57:02,200 --> 02:57:05,760
Speaker 11: I was. I don't want to doubt you, but that

3047
02:57:05,840 --> 02:57:07,920
Speaker 11: would have been in news to me. Yes, a number

3048
02:57:08,000 --> 02:57:12,119
Speaker 11: of Trumps, like executive officials, are living on bases more

3049
02:57:12,240 --> 02:57:13,080
Speaker 11: than is usual.

3050
02:57:13,959 --> 02:57:15,720
Speaker 7: I think the Millers maybe do as well.

3051
02:57:16,160 --> 02:57:16,600
Speaker 5: But yeah.

3052
02:57:17,160 --> 02:57:19,800
Speaker 11: She also purchased two Gulf Stream jets to fly her around.

3053
02:57:20,400 --> 02:57:23,400
Speaker 11: Unlike most government jets, which tend to be returned towards

3054
02:57:23,480 --> 02:57:26,360
Speaker 11: what's called a sterile state after use. That just means

3055
02:57:27,000 --> 02:57:29,720
Speaker 11: that they go back to being completely clean, like they're

3056
02:57:29,800 --> 02:57:33,800
Speaker 11: like a generic jet. They're not your jet. Nome prefers

3057
02:57:33,840 --> 02:57:37,000
Speaker 11: to keep some personal items aboard the Gulf streams, but

3058
02:57:37,200 --> 02:57:41,000
Speaker 11: one of these items, a heated blanket, was left behind

3059
02:57:41,240 --> 02:57:43,520
Speaker 11: after her jet broke down she had to switch planes.

3060
02:57:43,879 --> 02:57:47,440
Speaker 11: Coylewandowski reportedly sheltered at the Coast Guard flight staff and

3061
02:57:47,520 --> 02:57:51,199
Speaker 11: demanded they turn around before attempting to fire the pilot,

3062
02:57:51,320 --> 02:57:53,440
Speaker 11: who fused to do so.

3063
02:57:53,959 --> 02:57:57,119
Speaker 3: Jesus right, I need I need my blanky.

3064
02:57:57,240 --> 02:57:58,119
Speaker 5: I need my blanky.

3065
02:57:58,200 --> 02:57:58,760
Speaker 2: Turn around.

3066
02:57:59,000 --> 02:58:01,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think she'd she had a rough week. I

3067
02:58:01,720 --> 02:58:03,280
Speaker 7: guess one of the blankets.

3068
02:58:03,560 --> 02:58:07,040
Speaker 12: These are absolutely just like the softest fascists that have

3069
02:58:07,120 --> 02:58:10,400
Speaker 12: ever ruled the country. Like it, turn off flight around

3070
02:58:10,440 --> 02:58:12,720
Speaker 12: because I left my beaby blanket.

3071
02:58:12,480 --> 02:58:14,800
Speaker 7: Like yeah, right, like I oh god.

3072
02:58:15,120 --> 02:58:18,960
Speaker 11: Fortunately, I guess they de escalated that one and continued

3073
02:58:18,959 --> 02:58:22,680
Speaker 11: the flight blanket free, trying to fire the fi.

3074
02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:24,960
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3075
02:58:25,080 --> 02:58:29,040
Speaker 11: I think it is interesting to look at coast guards morale, right, Like,

3076
02:58:29,120 --> 02:58:33,040
Speaker 11: Coast Guard's traditional mission has been search and rescue and

3077
02:58:33,160 --> 02:58:37,760
Speaker 11: then the interdiction of like drug vessels, and they have

3078
02:58:37,920 --> 02:58:42,320
Speaker 11: been doing a great deal of border enforcement stuff and

3079
02:58:42,480 --> 02:58:46,000
Speaker 11: removal stuff. And it is obviously like people who have

3080
02:58:46,080 --> 02:58:48,000
Speaker 11: been at the Coast Guard for a long time not

3081
02:58:48,120 --> 02:58:50,200
Speaker 11: what they joined the Coast Guard to do. I will

3082
02:58:50,240 --> 02:58:52,840
Speaker 11: just say that there are very few areas in which

3083
02:58:52,920 --> 02:58:56,240
Speaker 11: the United Kingdom has worked shit out, but the lifeboats

3084
02:58:56,360 --> 02:58:59,200
Speaker 11: are one of them. They are mentioned in Mutual Aid.

3085
02:58:59,600 --> 02:59:02,600
Speaker 11: The Royal National Lifeboat Institute has an article on for

3086
02:59:02,720 --> 02:59:06,440
Speaker 11: Popkin on their website incredible and it is. It is

3087
02:59:06,520 --> 02:59:10,359
Speaker 11: one of the really genuinely good things about Britain. By contrasting,

3088
02:59:10,440 --> 02:59:13,039
Speaker 11: they are not part of our government security apparatus.

3089
02:59:13,240 --> 02:59:15,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, because that makes no sense. The entire agency of

3090
02:59:15,520 --> 02:59:17,480
Speaker 3: DHS makes no sense whatsoever.

3091
02:59:17,680 --> 02:59:18,520
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's just.

3092
02:59:18,520 --> 02:59:20,160
Speaker 7: Because, Yeah, there are better ways to do this.

3093
02:59:20,560 --> 02:59:22,080
Speaker 2: I mean it makes again, it makes a lot of

3094
02:59:22,160 --> 02:59:24,160
Speaker 2: sense as the president's private army.

3095
02:59:24,680 --> 02:59:24,880
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3096
02:59:26,080 --> 02:59:30,800
Speaker 3: For our final segment in this episode, some tragic news.

3097
02:59:31,680 --> 02:59:35,800
Speaker 3: On Monday afternoon, February sixteenth, two people were killed in

3098
02:59:35,840 --> 02:59:38,720
Speaker 3: a shooting at a hockey game in Pawtucket, Rhode Island.

3099
02:59:39,320 --> 02:59:43,280
Speaker 3: Before the shooter died by suicide. Three others were shot

3100
02:59:43,360 --> 02:59:46,280
Speaker 3: but survived their injuries. In the aftermath of the strategy,

3101
02:59:46,440 --> 02:59:49,480
Speaker 3: people across the right and the left have both used

3102
02:59:49,560 --> 02:59:54,200
Speaker 3: this shooting offensively and defensively in the culture war because

3103
02:59:54,200 --> 02:59:57,800
Speaker 3: of the shooter's general identity and far right conspiratorial politics,

3104
02:59:58,280 --> 03:00:03,040
Speaker 3: even though evidence points to wards this being targeted domestic violence.

3105
03:00:03,760 --> 03:00:06,320
Speaker 3: The deceased or the shooter's ex wife and eldest son,

3106
03:00:06,840 --> 03:00:10,119
Speaker 3: and the deceased ex wife's parents were critically wounded but survived,

3107
03:00:10,320 --> 03:00:14,080
Speaker 3: as did a family friend. The shooter's other son was

3108
03:00:14,320 --> 03:00:18,320
Speaker 3: on the ice playing hockey while the shooting took place. Ordinarily,

3109
03:00:18,440 --> 03:00:20,640
Speaker 3: we would not talk about an instant like this in

3110
03:00:20,760 --> 03:00:24,040
Speaker 3: the news because there's a lot of domestic violence shootings

3111
03:00:24,040 --> 03:00:26,480
Speaker 3: that happened across the United States every week, and not

3112
03:00:26,560 --> 03:00:29,360
Speaker 3: all of them become national news stories. This is news

3113
03:00:29,520 --> 03:00:32,840
Speaker 3: because of its weaponization in the political culture war, but

3114
03:00:33,000 --> 03:00:35,960
Speaker 3: under most methodologies like this incident would not even be

3115
03:00:36,080 --> 03:00:39,320
Speaker 3: categorized as a mass shooting. Yeah, because less than four

3116
03:00:39,360 --> 03:00:44,360
Speaker 3: people died, it does qualify under the Gun Violence Archive criteria,

3117
03:00:44,480 --> 03:00:47,640
Speaker 3: which counts injuries not debts, in which this would be

3118
03:00:47,800 --> 03:00:52,240
Speaker 3: the forty first shooting in the US this year. But

3119
03:00:52,360 --> 03:00:55,119
Speaker 3: after the shooting took place, right wing accounts and influencers

3120
03:00:55,160 --> 03:00:57,080
Speaker 3: started using this as a part of their trans mass

3121
03:00:57,120 --> 03:01:01,840
Speaker 3: shooter narrative. On Monday night, the Pawtucket Police that they

3122
03:01:01,879 --> 03:01:05,720
Speaker 3: believed the shooting stemmed from a family dispute. The shooter

3123
03:01:05,879 --> 03:01:09,240
Speaker 3: was fifty six years old with six kids. About ten

3124
03:01:09,320 --> 03:01:12,199
Speaker 3: years ago, the shooter started identifying as a transgender woman

3125
03:01:12,640 --> 03:01:16,959
Speaker 3: and used the name Roberta Espisito. The legal last name

3126
03:01:17,200 --> 03:01:18,320
Speaker 3: is Dorgan.

3127
03:01:18,879 --> 03:01:20,560
Speaker 5: They're not hispanic oh.

3128
03:01:22,560 --> 03:01:25,720
Speaker 3: The shooter was divorced about five to six years ago,

3129
03:01:26,360 --> 03:01:30,360
Speaker 3: and Dorgan's ex wife lists the grounds for divorce in

3130
03:01:30,440 --> 03:01:35,160
Speaker 3: the documents as quote, gender reassignment surgery, narcissistic and personality

3131
03:01:35,160 --> 03:01:40,240
Speaker 3: disorder traits. Then she crossed that out and instead wrote

3132
03:01:40,720 --> 03:01:45,840
Speaker 3: quote irrevocable differences which caused the remediable breakdown of the

3133
03:01:46,000 --> 03:01:53,280
Speaker 3: marriage unquote. The shooter was extremely active on Twitter, made

3134
03:01:53,400 --> 03:01:57,680
Speaker 3: anti semitic and conspiratorial posts, and frequently interacted with a

3135
03:01:57,840 --> 03:02:01,560
Speaker 3: large assortment of mega influencers, as well as far right,

3136
03:02:01,800 --> 03:02:05,400
Speaker 3: neo Nazi, and conspiracy theory influencers like Nick Fuentes and

3137
03:02:05,560 --> 03:02:10,600
Speaker 3: Alex Jones. Dorgan also shared pictures of a massive like

3138
03:02:10,920 --> 03:02:14,959
Speaker 3: ss toten CoV tattoo on their right arm and wrote

3139
03:02:15,000 --> 03:02:18,560
Speaker 3: on Twitter quote postop trans to the right of Hitler

3140
03:02:19,120 --> 03:02:23,840
Speaker 3: and quote you can be pro LGBT and pro Trump unquote.

3141
03:02:24,560 --> 03:02:28,160
Speaker 3: From looking through their Twitter, it it mostly appears to

3142
03:02:28,200 --> 03:02:32,119
Speaker 3: be someone who is suffering from extreme mental distress. It's

3143
03:02:32,200 --> 03:02:34,600
Speaker 3: hard to, you know, chart how much of the political

3144
03:02:34,640 --> 03:02:37,280
Speaker 3: beliefs that can be just split on Twitter are like

3145
03:02:37,440 --> 03:02:40,840
Speaker 3: genuinely held versus how much they relate to long standing

3146
03:02:40,879 --> 03:02:43,360
Speaker 3: mental health issues this person suffered from, which I'll get

3147
03:02:43,360 --> 03:02:46,200
Speaker 3: into in a sec I'm still a little hung up

3148
03:02:46,240 --> 03:02:48,760
Speaker 3: on the name. The name also, I think relates to

3149
03:02:48,959 --> 03:02:51,360
Speaker 3: just this person's very very not well.

3150
03:02:51,400 --> 03:02:54,360
Speaker 7: Okay, they're just trying to pace people off flick with correct.

3151
03:02:54,480 --> 03:02:57,480
Speaker 3: I think everything about this person can be seen as

3152
03:02:57,520 --> 03:03:02,840
Speaker 3: an expression of like antisociality, politics, their presentation, their name.

3153
03:03:03,520 --> 03:03:03,640
Speaker 5: Now.

3154
03:03:03,959 --> 03:03:07,480
Speaker 3: While right wing news agencies and influencers have used this

3155
03:03:07,560 --> 03:03:10,720
Speaker 3: horrifying instant of domestic violence for their trans mass shooter

3156
03:03:10,840 --> 03:03:14,720
Speaker 3: narrative framing every transperson is at risk of randomly becoming

3157
03:03:14,760 --> 03:03:18,400
Speaker 3: a mass killer while ignoring this shooter's own extremist politics,

3158
03:03:18,920 --> 03:03:21,200
Speaker 3: people on the left have blamed this strggedy on the

3159
03:03:21,240 --> 03:03:24,040
Speaker 3: shooter being a quote unquote far right Trump supporter or

3160
03:03:24,080 --> 03:03:28,000
Speaker 3: a quote unquote Nazi groper, and this is in part

3161
03:03:28,040 --> 03:03:31,000
Speaker 3: a defensive reaction against the right zone like misleading and

3162
03:03:31,080 --> 03:03:34,280
Speaker 3: non source claims about a statistical epidemic of trans violence.

3163
03:03:35,000 --> 03:03:38,160
Speaker 3: But laying blame on Make America Great Again and the

3164
03:03:38,240 --> 03:03:42,680
Speaker 3: MAGA movement doesn't really get us much closer to understanding

3165
03:03:42,920 --> 03:03:47,480
Speaker 3: this violence. We're so used to defaulting to this heartizan

3166
03:03:47,760 --> 03:03:52,240
Speaker 3: culture war like ideological explanation for the cause of public violence,

3167
03:03:52,280 --> 03:03:55,080
Speaker 3: whether that's you know, for the right, trans ideology or

3168
03:03:55,680 --> 03:03:59,600
Speaker 3: neo Nazism, even though both in this case and the

3169
03:03:59,640 --> 03:04:01,760
Speaker 3: shooting in Canada last week, which I talked about a

3170
03:04:01,800 --> 03:04:05,120
Speaker 3: few days ago on the show, this was like anti social,

3171
03:04:05,440 --> 03:04:08,960
Speaker 3: unstable and self destructive individuals who killed family members and

3172
03:04:09,040 --> 03:04:13,320
Speaker 3: then created a deadly public situation leading them to kill themselves.

3173
03:04:13,920 --> 03:04:18,320
Speaker 3: Despite Nazi tattoos and Twitter posts, this hockey game shooting

3174
03:04:18,480 --> 03:04:23,760
Speaker 3: was not ideologically motivated violence. This was targeted interpersonal violence

3175
03:04:23,760 --> 03:04:27,600
Speaker 3: against family stemming from extreme mental health issues. This goes

3176
03:04:27,640 --> 03:04:30,640
Speaker 3: beyond like right left politics. This shooter just seemed to

3177
03:04:30,680 --> 03:04:34,080
Speaker 3: be drawn to anything seen as extreme or anything that

3178
03:04:34,200 --> 03:04:38,440
Speaker 3: produced anti social effects. The daughter of the shooter briefly

3179
03:04:38,560 --> 03:04:42,440
Speaker 3: spoke to local news on Monday, saying that the shooter

3180
03:04:42,760 --> 03:04:45,360
Speaker 3: was her father and that the shooter had quote unquote

3181
03:04:45,520 --> 03:04:49,600
Speaker 3: mental health issues and was quote unquote very sick. The

3182
03:04:49,680 --> 03:04:52,199
Speaker 3: Rhode Island Coalition Against Mister Violence said in a statement

3183
03:04:52,240 --> 03:04:55,400
Speaker 3: Monday night. Quote, while details are still emerging, we know

3184
03:04:55,600 --> 03:04:58,920
Speaker 3: that violence within families and intimate relationships can have devastating

3185
03:04:59,080 --> 03:05:02,040
Speaker 3: and far reaching out impacts. Domestic violence does not stay

3186
03:05:02,080 --> 03:05:05,200
Speaker 3: behind closed doors. It affects children, extended family members, and

3187
03:05:05,480 --> 03:05:06,279
Speaker 3: entire communities.

3188
03:05:06,800 --> 03:05:07,240
Speaker 5: Unquote.

3189
03:05:08,040 --> 03:05:10,000
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, I guess if you want to do

3190
03:05:10,080 --> 03:05:12,760
Speaker 12: analysis of it, it's that the thing that's actually a

3191
03:05:12,800 --> 03:05:17,520
Speaker 12: predictive for violence is domestic violence. And this is another

3192
03:05:17,600 --> 03:05:19,440
Speaker 12: really horrible to mastic violence incidents.

3193
03:05:19,680 --> 03:05:22,119
Speaker 3: But yeah, it's pretty tragic.

3194
03:05:22,720 --> 03:05:22,959
Speaker 12: Yeah.

3195
03:05:23,879 --> 03:05:26,760
Speaker 3: Interestingly, there was some news that came out today, which

3196
03:05:26,800 --> 03:05:30,640
Speaker 3: is Wednesday, that one of the other sons of this

3197
03:05:30,760 --> 03:05:36,279
Speaker 3: shooter was arrested a few years ago in North Providence

3198
03:05:37,000 --> 03:05:40,879
Speaker 3: for setting fires to a black church, which did appear

3199
03:05:40,959 --> 03:05:46,280
Speaker 3: to be ideologically motivated violence. Police found notebooks inside of

3200
03:05:46,720 --> 03:05:50,800
Speaker 3: this person's home filled with hateful writings quote, gutten down

3201
03:05:50,840 --> 03:05:54,240
Speaker 3: everyone that isn't white. If one is white, spread the gospel,

3202
03:05:54,320 --> 03:05:58,280
Speaker 3: always give our bloodline a chance unquote. So this incident

3203
03:05:58,440 --> 03:06:03,000
Speaker 3: of arson the black church is definitely ideologically motivated.

3204
03:06:03,800 --> 03:06:03,959
Speaker 9: Yeah.

3205
03:06:04,040 --> 03:06:08,039
Speaker 3: It's been a great, extremely normal country, and this person

3206
03:06:08,160 --> 03:06:09,920
Speaker 3: was sentenced to six years in prison.

3207
03:06:10,160 --> 03:06:13,879
Speaker 7: Oh wow, So the person that's the son of the person, the.

3208
03:06:13,879 --> 03:06:15,680
Speaker 3: Son of the shooter, one of the sons of the shooter.

3209
03:06:16,000 --> 03:06:17,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, they had several sense.

3210
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:18,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, just a.

3211
03:06:19,040 --> 03:06:22,320
Speaker 3: Pretty tragic series of incidents with this family.

3212
03:06:22,440 --> 03:06:25,880
Speaker 11: I do find it really disturbing that the thing that

3213
03:06:25,959 --> 03:06:28,039
Speaker 11: you mentioned here where people just kind of drop into

3214
03:06:28,120 --> 03:06:30,840
Speaker 11: a channel when it comes to responding to a tragedy

3215
03:06:31,000 --> 03:06:33,280
Speaker 11: like this, like and I find it really upsetting when

3216
03:06:33,320 --> 03:06:37,480
Speaker 11: I see it from like yeah, left and progressive organizations

3217
03:06:37,800 --> 03:06:40,360
Speaker 11: that promote firearms training or like.

3218
03:06:41,000 --> 03:06:42,600
Speaker 7: I just find it really kind of.

3219
03:06:43,040 --> 03:06:46,240
Speaker 11: Disappointing, I guess, to see people dropping into these same

3220
03:06:46,440 --> 03:06:51,320
Speaker 11: kind of callous and dismissive responses. It's just something that's

3221
03:06:51,360 --> 03:06:54,119
Speaker 11: been weighing on me recently. I am a person who

3222
03:06:54,160 --> 03:06:57,440
Speaker 11: owns guns, but it's still I don't know, I'm disappointed,

3223
03:06:57,480 --> 03:06:57,800
Speaker 11: I guess.

3224
03:06:58,280 --> 03:06:58,480
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3225
03:06:59,200 --> 03:07:02,720
Speaker 3: All right, well we reported the news.

3226
03:07:03,520 --> 03:07:05,640
Speaker 12: Put a transcroll on your couch, yeap.

3227
03:07:06,040 --> 03:07:08,680
Speaker 11: And if you have some news that you think we

3228
03:07:08,760 --> 03:07:12,720
Speaker 11: should report, tips, you can do so by emailing Cool

3229
03:07:12,800 --> 03:07:15,840
Speaker 11: Zone Tips at proton dot me. If you have someone

3230
03:07:15,920 --> 03:07:17,520
Speaker 11: that you would like to be a guest on our

3231
03:07:17,560 --> 03:07:20,760
Speaker 11: show or topic that you think Roberts should cover from

3232
03:07:20,760 --> 03:07:22,760
Speaker 11: behind the bustards. We will make another email for that,

3233
03:07:23,080 --> 03:07:25,119
Speaker 11: but if you could just not email the tip line.

3234
03:07:25,120 --> 03:07:28,480
Speaker 11: If you're a publicist and you email, I will block you.

3235
03:07:29,800 --> 03:07:38,240
Speaker 2: We reported the news. Hey, We'll be back Monday with

3236
03:07:38,520 --> 03:07:41,320
Speaker 2: more episodes every week from now until the heat death

3237
03:07:41,360 --> 03:07:42,000
Speaker 2: of the Universe.

3238
03:07:42,760 --> 03:07:45,240
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

3239
03:07:45,440 --> 03:07:48,480
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3240
03:07:48,600 --> 03:07:52,080
Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

3241
03:07:52,240 --> 03:07:55,760
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can

3242
03:07:55,840 --> 03:07:58,160
Speaker 1: now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly

3243
03:07:58,200 --> 03:08:00,480
Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks listening