1
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,520
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

2
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

3
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

4
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,640
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

5
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,080
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

6
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

7
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

8
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,479
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

9
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,440
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

10
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

11
00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,560
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four twenty one of the

12
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,600
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our

13
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:15,080
Speaker 1: conversation afterword from our sponsors. This week, we're joined by

14
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,920
Speaker 1: doctor Afia and Billy Shaka, a clinical psychologist, hairstylist, professor,

15
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,920
Speaker 1: and the founder of Psychoherapy, an innovative approach that uses

16
00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,240
Speaker 1: hair care as an entry point into mental health in

17
00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,000
Speaker 1: the black community. As Black women, our hair is more

18
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,720
Speaker 1: than just what's at the surface. It shapes identity, signals care,

19
00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,280
Speaker 1: and holds cultural memory. In our conversation, Doctor Afia and

20
00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,839
Speaker 1: I dig into the deep emotional and historically nuanced ties

21
00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,880
Speaker 1: we have to our hair and how that relationship can

22
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,200
Speaker 1: mirror our mental health. If something resonates with you while

23
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,559
Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media

24
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 1: using the hashtag TVG in session, or join us over

25
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 1: on our Patreon channel To talk more about the episode,

26
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:01,160
Speaker 1: You can join us at Community Therapy for Black girl

27
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for

28
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 1: joining us today, doctor Fia.

29
00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,519
Speaker 2: I'm so happy to be here. You don't know how

30
00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 2: long I've been wanting to be on your podcasts.

31
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,480
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Well, I am very glad that the

32
00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:19,760
Speaker 1: timing has arrived, very excited to have this conversation with you,

33
00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,640
Speaker 1: Doctor Ophia. I feel like you and other therapists have

34
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: been doing such incredible work in terms of talking with

35
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,280
Speaker 1: black women around hair issues, and really I think solidifying

36
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,080
Speaker 1: in like normalizing like that hair can be a mental

37
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,679
Speaker 1: health issue, right Like I think for a lot of

38
00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,399
Speaker 1: the time people saw it as frivolous and like, oh,

39
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,080
Speaker 1: why is there something to be concerned about? But I

40
00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,399
Speaker 1: think you're working again the many others has really solidified

41
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: this as an area of concern, and I'm curious to

42
00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,280
Speaker 1: hear how you feel like your work has changed, maybe

43
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,040
Speaker 1: in the advent of social media, because I think there

44
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 1: has long been this pressure for black women to kind

45
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,919
Speaker 1: of be together, right, which means your edges are laid

46
00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,320
Speaker 1: perfectly quoffed all of the things. And I do think

47
00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 1: the conversations I feel like I see around hair feel

48
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,040
Speaker 1: like they're different in the lane of social media. So

49
00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 1: can you talk about like the transition maybe you've seen

50
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,160
Speaker 1: in your work, maybe over the past five to seven years.

51
00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,120
Speaker 2: Oh yes, So it's interesting because I think hair is

52
00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:21,720
Speaker 2: a complex language system, right in terms of it can

53
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,200
Speaker 2: tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from,

54
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:28,760
Speaker 2: your spiritual beliefs. But I think with social media there's

55
00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,799
Speaker 2: like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair, right

56
00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,320
Speaker 2: that this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when

57
00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: we make a post or a real is how our

58
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,520
Speaker 2: hair is stiled. And so I think that it lasts

59
00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,040
Speaker 2: a lot longer than our old school day to day

60
00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,080
Speaker 2: life of maybe you didn't have the best hair day

61
00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,320
Speaker 2: could go away, but the way our hair lives on

62
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,320
Speaker 2: in social media can't be quite stressful.

63
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 1: So I love that you started by saying the hair

64
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 1: is a complex language system. I have never heard that terminology.

65
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:03,440
Speaker 1: But as you said, you will see age and marital

66
00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:05,560
Speaker 1: status and all of those things. Can you talk more

67
00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,120
Speaker 1: about that language around, like how it is a language system.

68
00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this is not just me. This is our

69
00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,040
Speaker 2: ancient African ancestors who identified here as a language system,

70
00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,279
Speaker 2: that there would be certain initiations or rights of passage

71
00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,040
Speaker 2: with each age group having a certain hairstyle. So even

72
00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:28,440
Speaker 2: like for the Messiah in Tanzania, that even at birth

73
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 2: a child gets a haircut, it represents this transition from

74
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,960
Speaker 2: the spiritual world to the physical realm, and so that Baldi,

75
00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,480
Speaker 2: even at ten days old, is shown that they've gone

76
00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:42,120
Speaker 2: through an initiation process or for rights of passage or

77
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,120
Speaker 2: for marriage. Sometimes you could only wear a certain hairstyle

78
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:47,919
Speaker 2: if you were married, literally to let people know you

79
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:51,200
Speaker 2: were no longer on the market, and it was signaling

80
00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,760
Speaker 2: to people that you were in a relationship or even

81
00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 2: in elder status. Sometimes when we got certain degrees in

82
00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,880
Speaker 2: traditional African societies, we got to wear certain hairstyle. So

83
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,880
Speaker 2: instead of like that cap and gown situation, we would

84
00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:06,400
Speaker 2: wear a certain hairstyle to let people know that we've

85
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:08,680
Speaker 2: achieved a certain knowledge that is, so we could wear

86
00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 2: a certain hairstyle with our psychology degrees. So it's kind

87
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,200
Speaker 2: of our tradition to have this top down approach to

88
00:05:17,279 --> 00:05:20,360
Speaker 2: understanding who we are. And even in a lot of

89
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,920
Speaker 2: traditional African societies, if your hair was not neatly groomed,

90
00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,000
Speaker 2: you were actually seen as having a mental illness. It

91
00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,120
Speaker 2: was a signal to other people that you couldn't take

92
00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,640
Speaker 2: care of yourself and needed lots of love and community support.

93
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: Very interesting, So, doctor I Fhia, I had some ideas

94
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 1: about what I wanted to talk to you about today,

95
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 1: but clearly we are just off to the races because

96
00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,920
Speaker 1: now I'm interested in this. So it sounds like in

97
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,680
Speaker 1: African tradition, like hair was more ritualistic, right, like, you know,

98
00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,200
Speaker 1: babies have this initiation process, and it seems like hair

99
00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,159
Speaker 1: being done was more an indication of care, right, and

100
00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,760
Speaker 1: an indication of like culture. And it feels like in

101
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 1: our society, like Black American and you know, the Western society,

102
00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 1: it seems like hair is much more like, Okay, how

103
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,280
Speaker 1: close can we be to the oppressors? Right? Like how

104
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: closely does your hair mirror like white women's hair? And

105
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,599
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like, so, even though hair was a

106
00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 1: very central part of the conversation, even historically, it feels

107
00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,600
Speaker 1: like we have lost some of the tradition of what

108
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,880
Speaker 1: hair meant and it has become a very different thing now.

109
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 2: Agreed, I think everybody likes looking good. I think your

110
00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 2: hair looks amazing about the way everybody.

111
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:33,279
Speaker 1: Think you like life.

112
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,720
Speaker 2: I think what looking good has shifted and changed. Right,

113
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,760
Speaker 2: in traditional African society, there was this ideal of healthy hair.

114
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 2: But I think through enslaving, colonization, oppression, that looking good

115
00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,799
Speaker 2: has shifted a bit in terms of having certain approximations

116
00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,680
Speaker 2: to whiteness, or even being mindful of how black women's

117
00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 2: hair in particular is policed in terms of being this

118
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,560
Speaker 2: symbol of worthiness, or of professionalism or even morality. So

119
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,640
Speaker 2: I think the meaning of hair has shifted.

120
00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:08,000
Speaker 1: So how do we divorce ourselves from some of that?

121
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:08,200
Speaker 2: All?

122
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 1: Right? Because you know, so much of it is a

123
00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,960
Speaker 1: societal thing, Like we are kind of born into this

124
00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:15,760
Speaker 1: idea of I don't know if you had days Easter

125
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,239
Speaker 1: Sundays spent getting your hair pressed with the present holding

126
00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 1: your ear right. So much of it we learn from

127
00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,040
Speaker 1: very very young And I do feel like we are

128
00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,480
Speaker 1: now taking some of the power out of that, right,

129
00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:28,400
Speaker 1: like with the whole natural hair moving and people kind

130
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 1: of letting their hair do what it does. But I

131
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,960
Speaker 1: do feel like it is still a struggle for many

132
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 1: of us. So how do we start breaking up with

133
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,240
Speaker 1: this idea of perfectly quaffed and needing to be respectable

134
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:40,480
Speaker 1: in some sense?

135
00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:44,320
Speaker 2: Hmm, this is a good question. I'm still working on it.

136
00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,440
Speaker 2: I think there certainly is such a pressure to be perfect,

137
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,760
Speaker 2: but then perfectionism becomes a present right in terms of

138
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,280
Speaker 2: really controlling the way that we make choices around our hair.

139
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 2: I'm still working on this, doctor Duay again for myself.

140
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 2: But I think a big piece is even exploring our

141
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 2: hair identity. I'll say so, I like to think a

142
00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 2: lot about our internalized and evolving stories of hair. So

143
00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 2: I like to explore people's earliest memories of their hair,

144
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:17,600
Speaker 2: a low point related to hair, maybe a high point

145
00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 2: or even a turning point. And I think in those

146
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,920
Speaker 2: hair stories that all of us have that's deeply embedded

147
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 2: into our conscious or subconscious, can give us insight about

148
00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 2: why we are trying to control our hair in a

149
00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,560
Speaker 2: certain way and what conflicts we need to resolve. To

150
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:40,119
Speaker 2: let our hair be itself. Again, there's that hyper regulation

151
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,600
Speaker 2: and observation of our hair. But I think sometimes we

152
00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,440
Speaker 2: do it to ourselves and we can figure out the

153
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,520
Speaker 2: origin story of maybe something that somebody said to us

154
00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,760
Speaker 2: once or we were teased or bullied, and look back

155
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,040
Speaker 2: to see how that even guides our need for perfectionism.

156
00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,839
Speaker 1: Now, okay, doctor, if you we're gonna have to sit

157
00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,320
Speaker 1: here for a second. So you see, as you were talking,

158
00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:03,720
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about like my early hair stories, right, so

159
00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,880
Speaker 1: I already shared like the East of Sunday, like getting

160
00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: ready for the pressing comb. So it used to be.

161
00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,800
Speaker 1: I feel like they have fancy containers now, but my

162
00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:15,000
Speaker 1: like borette container was like an old baby cloth what

163
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,959
Speaker 1: do you call it? Like wash cloth, the things to

164
00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,400
Speaker 1: use for the baby's diapers, right, Like that is where

165
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,480
Speaker 1: all of my boris were. And so I really remember

166
00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,240
Speaker 1: like getting my container to like sit between my mother's

167
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,840
Speaker 1: legs and like get my hair comb right. And so

168
00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,079
Speaker 1: that to me wasn't a traumatic memory. Maybe like the

169
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 1: pressing comb and having to hold my ear, that also

170
00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 1: felt like very loving and like communal. Right, Like, I

171
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,520
Speaker 1: think so much of my stories around hair are like

172
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,520
Speaker 1: with my mom or my aunt or are you know

173
00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 1: like those kinds of things. And so you mentioned what

174
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:47,360
Speaker 1: are our earliest stories about hair? And there were two others?

175
00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,200
Speaker 2: What were the others like our high point maybe the

176
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,400
Speaker 2: best we ever felt about our hair, or a lower

177
00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 2: point and even a turning point if there was some

178
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 2: transition where we thought of ourselves and our hair in

179
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,199
Speaker 2: one way and how did it change shift with time?

180
00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,880
Speaker 1: Ah? Okay, So is there an early story around here

181
00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:06,320
Speaker 1: that you feel comfortable sharing?

182
00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 2: I do thank you for consenting. As I do, I

183
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 2: would think back to getting my hair done as well.

184
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,840
Speaker 2: I'm the youngest of four children, and Sunday nights were

185
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,240
Speaker 2: such a special time for me and my mom because

186
00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:23,960
Speaker 2: it was wash day and it was that one on

187
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,040
Speaker 2: one attention that I think I was craving where she

188
00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,160
Speaker 2: would wash and style my hair. And my mom is

189
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,720
Speaker 2: a retired teacher, and I felt like she made it

190
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,720
Speaker 2: really educational, like it involved counting and colors and things

191
00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,960
Speaker 2: like that, where she was actually doing lessons related to

192
00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:43,280
Speaker 2: styling my hair. But I really liked that she gave

193
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 2: me choice and how I wanted my hair done. She

194
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,080
Speaker 2: would let me every Sunday pick the number of braids

195
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,120
Speaker 2: that I wanted to wear that week. So I would

196
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,720
Speaker 2: just shout out a number like eleven, and she okay,

197
00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,360
Speaker 2: I'm gonna come with a pattern of eleven braids or

198
00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,559
Speaker 2: I like three braids a lot, so but you'd put

199
00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 2: them in all different directions or tie them up or

200
00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,040
Speaker 2: leave them out. And so I think that I have

201
00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,520
Speaker 2: really positive memories because my mom did not hit me

202
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,120
Speaker 2: with the brush, and I know that's a lot of

203
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 2: people's expence.

204
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,079
Speaker 1: I would say I feel like I got hit with

205
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:18,000
Speaker 1: the brush for sure, like not holding still, but.

206
00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,880
Speaker 2: She was gentle, mopefully I'm not tender headed, because I

207
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:22,720
Speaker 2: know that's a lot of black women's experience and I

208
00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,040
Speaker 2: had a lot of hair growing up, but my mom

209
00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,559
Speaker 2: was very, very gentle. She would tell me stories or

210
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,160
Speaker 2: speak affirmations to me. And I think that's even the

211
00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 2: basis of me loving hair at this point because it

212
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,520
Speaker 2: wasn't a traumatic early experience. But I know that's not

213
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 2: typical for a lot of black women. But the care

214
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,679
Speaker 2: and investment made me feel so loved.

215
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,160
Speaker 1: By my mom. So how do we use these stories

216
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,640
Speaker 1: after FIA? So if somebody's enjoying our conversation in there,

217
00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:52,520
Speaker 1: stopping like, Okay, let me go think about some of

218
00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 1: my early hair stories. How do we then use those

219
00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,960
Speaker 1: stories to kind of maybe reimagine what our relationship to

220
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,000
Speaker 1: our hair looks like? Now, all great question.

221
00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,440
Speaker 2: I'm actually trained as a narrative therapist, so I love

222
00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:09,640
Speaker 2: storytelling in our work, and so, just like any other story,

223
00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,439
Speaker 2: it's an exploration of identity in terms of how can

224
00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,240
Speaker 2: that story help to answer who you are? How can

225
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,080
Speaker 2: that story help to answer sort of what was your

226
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 2: concern or problem versus what was society putting onto you?

227
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,480
Speaker 2: In terms of us being burned, because I did yet

228
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,959
Speaker 2: burned too, But I'm choosing to tell the vagentle experience.

229
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,560
Speaker 2: Why were we getting burned on our foreheads, our ears,

230
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,880
Speaker 2: our next as children? To think why was such high

231
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,880
Speaker 2: levels of heat being applied to our heads, knowing that

232
00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,559
Speaker 2: we moved around a lot, but to really identify the

233
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,920
Speaker 2: systems that guided our need our hair to look so perfect, right,

234
00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 2: going back to systems of white supremacy, gender politics, respectability politics,

235
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,600
Speaker 2: that even how our hair looked was a reflection of

236
00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,840
Speaker 2: how well our mothers took care of us or our

237
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,920
Speaker 2: attachment to them and their reputation. So to think about

238
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,680
Speaker 2: how society was showing up even on those wash days too.

239
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and again, I think going back to

240
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,600
Speaker 1: your early example of like hair being a complex language,

241
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 1: right Like, even that like that hair and how a

242
00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 1: child's hair looks is an indication of like hair from

243
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,560
Speaker 1: their parents, Right So it is much deeper than hair,

244
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,240
Speaker 1: right Like. It may just look like hair to you,

245
00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,599
Speaker 1: but there are lots of things playing out in the background.

246
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 1: I think for.

247
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,760
Speaker 2: Black women, hair is a projection, right in terms of

248
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,360
Speaker 2: the meaning the emotions that we put with it, whether

249
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 2: it's pride or shame or anything in between.

250
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,960
Speaker 1: What kinds of conversations around maybe the natural hair movement

251
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,920
Speaker 1: have you had, maybe with clients and maybe some struggles there.

252
00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 2: You mean, Okay, I definitely have sent clients to natural

253
00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,560
Speaker 2: hair slines to get big chop. But I'm thinking about

254
00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:07,200
Speaker 2: sort of these transitional periods where someone is experiencing maybe

255
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:13,319
Speaker 2: some significant shedding or hair loss or damage overall, and

256
00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:17,000
Speaker 2: them holding on to this damaged hair one it does

257
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,160
Speaker 2: need to go. And so a lot of my work

258
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 2: has held the client's hand as they've made a decision

259
00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,960
Speaker 2: to focus on the health of their hair versus the

260
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,040
Speaker 2: length of it. Right, we all try to hold onto

261
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 2: those edges, not just edges. Let me that's it the length, right,

262
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,440
Speaker 2: because I think the length has so much connection to

263
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:39,960
Speaker 2: sense of like attractiveness or femininity, but it's not healthy.

264
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 2: And so just like we would go through a motivational

265
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,560
Speaker 2: interviewing with a client that maybe wanted to change a

266
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,880
Speaker 2: health habit, it looks pretty similar one which helping clients

267
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 2: go through transitions with their hair.

268
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 1: Mm hm. I love that that is a part of

269
00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,600
Speaker 1: a treatment plan for you, right, like, let's actually go

270
00:14:58,640 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 1: and get a big job. And I think it's in

271
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 1: to let the audience know too that in addition to

272
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 1: being in a psychologist, you are also trained as a hairdresser, right,

273
00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,600
Speaker 1: which is a beautiful like meeting of your world, I think,

274
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 1: and have developed this entire program called psychotherapy. So tell

275
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,760
Speaker 1: us more about the program and how it was an

276
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 1: extension of the work that you were doing as a psychologist.

277
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,160
Speaker 2: So I've always loved doing hair. I was my family's

278
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,800
Speaker 2: hairstylist as a teenager, and then when I went to

279
00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 2: college at the University of Pennsylvania, I would have these

280
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 2: many pop up hair salons in my dorm room and

281
00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:35,520
Speaker 2: I remember loving that position and role in my dorm

282
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,760
Speaker 2: because I knew everything that was happening in people's lives.

283
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,560
Speaker 2: I knew who was dating, who I knew who was

284
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,920
Speaker 2: doing well in school, all based on these conversations that

285
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,200
Speaker 2: were happening during the haircare process. And I remember talking

286
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 2: to my aunt Brenda on the phone one day she's

287
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,800
Speaker 2: now an ancestor, and telling her I'm not sure what

288
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,720
Speaker 2: I want to do after I graduate from college. Should

289
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 2: I become a psychologist or a hair stylist? And so

290
00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:01,960
Speaker 2: she said to me, well, why can't you do both. Now,

291
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,040
Speaker 2: I don't think she was telling me to do both

292
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: at the same exact time, but that's the way I

293
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 2: interpreted and thought, hmm, I can do hair and therapy together.

294
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 2: So then I went to Howard because I wanted to

295
00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,440
Speaker 2: study black mental health, and while I was there and

296
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 2: bring up the hair topic, but everybody did not validate

297
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 2: that this was a real thing, like no, our hair

298
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 2: connects to our emotions and mental health, but nobody was

299
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 2: studying that. So I ended up studying like racial identity

300
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 2: and would sneak in hair every now and then into

301
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 2: a research study, which was very relevant, especially at Howard.

302
00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,760
Speaker 2: And then I went on to become a staff psychologist

303
00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,240
Speaker 2: or in our college at Columbia University, and then I

304
00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 2: became a professor at Howard again and open up a

305
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 2: research lab. We would go to Washington, DC hair salons

306
00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 2: and barbershops and interview people about mental health topics. So

307
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: while they were getting their hair done, they were filling

308
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 2: out surveys for our research. And then I went to

309
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,600
Speaker 2: hair school. So it was in that order that I

310
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 2: got everything I could get with a PhD. So had

311
00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,360
Speaker 2: a private practice with a professor all of that license,

312
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 2: but then went to hair school and was able to

313
00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 2: join up these different worlds in terms of this unique

314
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,479
Speaker 2: qualification of licensed clinical psychologists with hair stylists and started

315
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,080
Speaker 2: actually doing trainings for hairstylists to integrate mental health first

316
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 2: AID into their work. So the way that it exists

317
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,240
Speaker 2: right now, I do a lot of trainings with barbers

318
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:37,280
Speaker 2: and hairstylists to recognize the signs and symptoms of depression, anxiety, psychosis,

319
00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,120
Speaker 2: substance abuse, and how to support someone through that, how

320
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:43,840
Speaker 2: to navigate a crisis, how to diffuse a crisis, how

321
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,840
Speaker 2: to refer someone to a psychologist. And they all know

322
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,199
Speaker 2: about the directory or people for black girls, I use

323
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,159
Speaker 2: that as a resource for people to get connected. And

324
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,640
Speaker 2: so that's where it exists in this way to use

325
00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,840
Speaker 2: all of my psychology skills to bring it into the

326
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,639
Speaker 2: salon and barbershop space and love this.

327
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,399
Speaker 1: And so you talk about hairstylists and barbers kind of

328
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,879
Speaker 1: being modern day healers. I mean even in your own example,

329
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, hearing about your cousins, love stories, and all

330
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 1: of these things because you are so intimate with them, right,

331
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,359
Speaker 1: Like hair is a very intimate kind of thing. So

332
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,000
Speaker 1: can you say more about like the role that hairstylists

333
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 1: and Barbara's have had as healers in our community.

334
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 2: Oh yes, so you know, back to after again, people

335
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,320
Speaker 2: oftentimes would have to be initiated into the status of

336
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:31,119
Speaker 2: priesthood in order to touch someone's head. And one of

337
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:35,840
Speaker 2: my favorite African proverbs goes, when your sister is your hairdresser,

338
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,399
Speaker 2: you need no mirror. Again, when your sister is your hairdresser,

339
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:41,399
Speaker 2: you need no mirror. So I think there's such a

340
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:46,280
Speaker 2: trusting relationship between stylists and their clients. I might even

341
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 2: say our community might trust stylists more than psychologists. I

342
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,679
Speaker 2: don't know, I kind of feel that way. And so Oftentimes,

343
00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,520
Speaker 2: stylists and barbers are what public health would call lay

344
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:02,720
Speaker 2: health advisors, meaning that they're already trusted individuals and the

345
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:08,679
Speaker 2: community that are already distributing information and resources, especially around health.

346
00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:12,800
Speaker 2: But they don't offer any formal training about mental health

347
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 2: and cosmetology or barbering schools. So that's sort of my

348
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 2: entry point because they're doing it already. I just want

349
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 2: to make sure that they have strategies, techniques, and some

350
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,320
Speaker 2: evidence based approaches that we learned in graduate school.

351
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree with you. I do feel like

352
00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways, like hair solace and barbers

353
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 1: are more trusted, and they typically see us at some

354
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 1: pretty vulnerable like important times, right like your wedding day

355
00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 1: or you know, like okay, your first haircut after you

356
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 1: had a baby, or your breakup haircut, right like, they

357
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,240
Speaker 1: are typically apart of some of those very pivotal moments.

358
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 1: So I agree with you that there is often a

359
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 1: lot more trust there than maybe even a therapist who

360
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,399
Speaker 1: is kind of a stranger to you at first meeting.

361
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,959
Speaker 2: There are existing relationships, and I'm very much mindful of

362
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,440
Speaker 2: the ethics of it all, but there's this one old

363
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,439
Speaker 2: support group and network that even exists in the salon,

364
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 2: not only between the stylists and their client, but the

365
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 2: overall community. I know that's changing a little bit with

366
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 2: salon suite, but we know that this is like a

367
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 2: community space where there's crosstalk where other people can add

368
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 2: in and weigh in on what someone's going through.

369
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,640
Speaker 1: I love that you mentioned that, right, because I think

370
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,199
Speaker 1: that that is something that I'm hearing a little bit

371
00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:26,199
Speaker 1: of conversation around, is how the culture of salons have changed, right,

372
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 1: Like I definitely remember going to a salon with my

373
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,639
Speaker 1: mom on a Saturday morning and you're kind of preparing

374
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 1: to be there all day, right, but like you're listening

375
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: to all the town gossip and like people sharing their information,

376
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,160
Speaker 1: and somebody comes in telling lunch or something, right, Like

377
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 1: it very much was a communal space, And now I

378
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,560
Speaker 1: appreciating the interests of like efficiency that like only one

379
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 1: person is scheduled at a time, like they're not a

380
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 1: bunch of us in there. But it does feel like

381
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: there has been something lost because you don't have like

382
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 1: that traditional maybe salon experience.

383
00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,640
Speaker 2: Things are changing, I know with the salons weet experienced,

384
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,080
Speaker 2: it almost mirrors individual therapy a bit more since there's

385
00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:07,240
Speaker 2: that one on one time and often spending hours still together.

386
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,359
Speaker 2: I know the last time I had a set of

387
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 2: knotless braids installed was December and I was there seven

388
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: hours and we talked about every single topic on the planet,

389
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 2: so that I almost feel like the stylist needs to

390
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,719
Speaker 2: have more conversational skills when it is the salon's sweet

391
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 2: setting because it's just the two of you. But also

392
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,719
Speaker 2: for a lot of the stylists who have been certified

393
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 2: in psychotherapy, they even give their clients the opportunity to

394
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,959
Speaker 2: pick a talking ob session or a quiet or silent

395
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 2: one because just like we have like ride shairs or uber,

396
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: sometimes you don't want to talk to the person the

397
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 2: whole ride to the airport and maybe you do, so

398
00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: even giving that as an option for the SAUN experience.

399
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 1: So tell me more about the certification. What kinds of

400
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: things are included when a barber or a stylist become

401
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 1: certified as a psychohapist?

402
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: Okay, So I divide the certification into three parts. The

403
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 2: first module is focused on the history of our hair.

404
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if you could tell already, doctor job,

405
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 2: but I am a hair historian, and so I go

406
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: through like thousands of years of hair history to really

407
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,880
Speaker 2: connect silas and barbers to this sacred role that they've

408
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 2: always had in our communities. And it's again not taught

409
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 2: in cosmetology or barbering school. And then the second module

410
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 2: is on identifying the signs and symptoms of mental illness

411
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: and communities of color, so we know that depression looks

412
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 2: a little bit different in the textbooks than it does

413
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: on a black woman, right, in terms of even navigating

414
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: feelings of irritability or anger when someone's highly distressed or depressed.

415
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 2: So going into sort of how certain mental health concerns

416
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: can show up in the chair, like trichotillomania, right, which

417
00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 2: is an anxiety disorder of hair pulling, and noticing those

418
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 2: signs for a client. And then finally the third part

419
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: is on micro counseling skills, so to be able to

420
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: engage in active listening, because I think a lot of

421
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 2: stylists error on the side of giving too much advice

422
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: when they maybe haven't listened to the full story. And

423
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 2: so we practice a lot of active listening so that

424
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 2: people can use paraphrasing, empathy. The stuff again we learned

425
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: in graduate school about how to make sure that someone

426
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 2: feels heard and understood. And again a big part of

427
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: what I train people is to know their limitations and

428
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: how to make referrals to a psychiatrist versus a social

429
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:45,439
Speaker 2: worker or psychologist or family therapists or couple's therapists. So

430
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 2: getting very familiar with each and again using the directory.

431
00:23:50,800 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. And so what

432
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: is required for somebody to kind of keep up their

433
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: certification as a psychohapist? Is it like a yearly kind

434
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: of continuing education kind of thing or what happens I

435
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: don't have.

436
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: That I should have been. It's I see it sort

437
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 2: of as CPR, where there's that initial class where they

438
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: get all that information. But I know for CPR you

439
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: are supposed to renew every three years, so okay, I

440
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 2: might have to add that in terms of the refreshers

441
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 2: and recertification.

442
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: And I'm kids to hear what kinds of stylists and

443
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: barbers are typically drawn to the program, because I definitely

444
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 1: could see some stylists who are like, oh, absolutely, this

445
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 1: feels like I already do this, Like I love to

446
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: have additional skills. So how do people find out about

447
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: the program and what kind of feedbacks have you gotten

448
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: from stylists about it.

449
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see a range of people who sign up.

450
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 2: I do see more folks who are in the natural

451
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 2: haircare industry. I think they have more relationship to seeing

452
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: hair as a health intervention, right in terms of being

453
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 2: intentional about the product choices or not braiding the hair

454
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: too tight. So I find natural hair stylus lean more

455
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 2: into psychicalhape than others, maybe just because I have natural

456
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,320
Speaker 2: hair that they think I want to talk about natural hair,

457
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 2: but you don't have to be a natural hair stylist

458
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 2: to get certified. And I see such a range of ages.

459
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,960
Speaker 2: A lot of people have been elders, like sixty seventy

460
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 2: year olds who wish they had this in the beginning

461
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: of their career because the topic of mental health would

462
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: come up so frequently, but no one ever gave them

463
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 2: any career specific advice or education related to mental health.

464
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: But then I see a lot of the new cosmetologists

465
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: coming in as well, because I think going through the pandemic,

466
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: that people are just much more mental health oriented than

467
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 2: ever before. And I definitely overall saw on an uptick

468
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 2: related to our COVID years because oftentimes stylists were the

469
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,159
Speaker 2: only interaction that some people were having in terms of

470
00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: the isolation periods and quarantines and so meeting more skills

471
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: to be able to support someone through grief, in particular

472
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 2: if they had lost someone during the pandemic. And so

473
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: I think this sort of post pandemic stylist has been

474
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: more attracted to psychotherapy than even before.

475
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that definitely makes a lot of sense. Is there

476
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: a particular story when you feel like psychotherapy really clicked,

477
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: either for a stylist or for a client.

478
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: I would say that I got a message from a

479
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: stylist who had completed psychotherapy and she said it saved

480
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: someone's life. I'm like, tell me more. And so basically

481
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: she said she used the skill set of identifying suicidal

482
00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 2: thoughts or actions or ideation and was able to get

483
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: someone to the hospital from the salon chair to like

484
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: the basically the psych word. And she said, I don't

485
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 2: think I would have known that what this client was

486
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 2: saying was actually about suicide because they never said the

487
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: word suicide. And so she said, by hearing certain signs

488
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: because I tell them in the class that I used

489
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:03,199
Speaker 2: to work at a research clinic that only focus on

490
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: black suicide, and we would do something called psychological autopsies

491
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: and interview families of people who had completed suicide or

492
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 2: friends of people who had completed suicide and would get

493
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 2: all the language and signs that actually happened. And so

494
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: by teaching that to the stylists, they can attune themselves

495
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: and observe a bit more around what suicide ideation looks like,

496
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,880
Speaker 2: a suicide plan, and even ambivalence and to know how

497
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: to get support, Like a lot of stylists have never

498
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: heard of nine eighty eight, right in terms of these

499
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: hotlines that have come up that's outside of NIO on

500
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: one that are specific to mental health topics, and so

501
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 2: like providing the client what's next, I'll drive you over there,

502
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: like this is where you can check in and I'll

503
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: sit with you as your triage. And so just to

504
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 2: hear that report back is something that stands.

505
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: Out a lot. Yeah, that is a very powerful Sorry,

506
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 1: thank you for sharing that. You mentioned. A part of

507
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,479
Speaker 1: the training is helping them not to stay in the

508
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: line between their role as maybe like a guide to

509
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: resources as opposed to the resource themselves. Can you say

510
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: more about, like what is that piece of the training

511
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: specifically right, because I think sometimes like you know just

512
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: enough to be dangerous, and so what kinds of lessons

513
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,919
Speaker 1: or what kinds of things are you teaching people to

514
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: help them kind of stay on that line.

515
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think one of the first lessons I

516
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: teach in psychotherapy is the importance of boundaries. I'm very

517
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: clear with the training about competency and limitations and ethics

518
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: in terms of I really encourage the stylists to know

519
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: that they are not licensed psychologists, that there is someone

520
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 2: who has the training and the degrees that can do

521
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: that work. It's a matter of being able to support

522
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: someone in the space. I think it's important for a

523
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: stylists to even set boundaries, saying something like what you're

524
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: saying is really important, but I might not be the

525
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: best person to talk about this particular timepic with, so

526
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: even going through and practicing, or if they feel more

527
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: open to it, to say, would you be open to

528
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: speaking with someone else and actually having referrals.

529
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: In the salone.

530
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: So even a part of the certification process, I give

531
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: each stylist a list of ten therapists that are local

532
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: to their salon, so that they have that list ready

533
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: and can make an active referral. I also encourage the

534
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: stylists to tune in to what they're feeling. I give

535
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 2: them techniques like to say to a client, I'm having

536
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: a really strong reaction to what you're saying. To even

537
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: say something like that so that it creates pause, so

538
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 2: that the client can know that this is a lot

539
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 2: to manage without necessarily stifling them. But again a recognition

540
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: that the stylist is a person too who has their

541
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: own triggers.

542
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 1: So you have now left all of the other work

543
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: that you were doing and kind of devoted yourself full

544
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: of time now to psychotherapy. I'm wondering what that process

545
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: has been like for you, and like, at what point

546
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: did you know that it was time to kind of

547
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: take that pivot?

548
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I was a part of the Great Resignation

549
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one where I had been a full

550
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: time professor and had my research lab, but decided to

551
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 2: make the transition to have a larger classroom, not just

552
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: being at one institution, but whoever wanted to study with

553
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,520
Speaker 2: me could And so it's been very challenging that Joy,

554
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 2: you didn't warn me about this entrepreneurship.

555
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: I wish I could have. I don't know it all either.

556
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: So I've been very lucky to have great brand deals,

557
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 2: shampoo companies reaching out to me and supporting stylist getting

558
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 2: scholarships to get trained in psychotherapy. But I actually made

559
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: a decision to transition back into academia. So in the fall,

560
00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: I am going to be a professor again. And one

561
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 2: of the reasons I chose this particular school is in

562
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,959
Speaker 2: their recruitment of me that there is a black student

563
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: run hair salon on campus and so that that will

564
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 2: actually be a part of my lab space. And they

565
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 2: are letting me teach a class called psychohapy in the curriculum.

566
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 2: So I feel like this is a space that I

567
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: can continue to build out my research, still certify people,

568
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 2: have them even come into this space. But I am

569
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: transitioning back.

570
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: So fall exciting, exclus me exclusive if you heard it

571
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: here first, I love that. I love that. So, you know,

572
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 1: I want to go back to something that you mentioned

573
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: earlier that you know as a part of your work

574
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: at Howard. People were like, I don't know about this

575
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 1: hair thing, right, So you would think that if at

576
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: any of the places that would be validated, it would

577
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: be at Howard and not a not to Howard. I

578
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: think in the field like we had a very long

579
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: way to go, and I think the field is now

580
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: catching up. But I wonder what has been the broader

581
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: reaction and response to your work of bridging the gap

582
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: between the mental health world and the hair world.

583
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 2: Howard definitely helped me to facilitate my expertise in understanding

584
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: race and racial dynamic. But as we know, academia is

585
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: oftentimes so disconnected to the community that we could write

586
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: all these papers, but if no one is reading it

587
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 2: outside of who has access to an APA journal, then

588
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't translate. So a big part of the psychohapy

589
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 2: work is making sure stylists and the general community has

590
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: access to it. So a big part is I like

591
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 2: to give presentations in salons, I like to post in

592
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: blogs that people are reading. I was even in therapy

593
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: for Black girls in terms of making sure people have

594
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: that information or knowledge, And so I think that academia

595
00:32:55,040 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: sometimes misses the community element. One of my favorite magazine

596
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: articles was with doctor Joe White. So he's like the

597
00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 2: father of black psychology, and he published the first black

598
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 2: psychology article ever in Ebony magazine. And so I'm just

599
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: even thinking about how to make the information accessible and active,

600
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 2: and to make sure that people from the community come

601
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 2: to college campuses and professors get to speak at barbershops.

602
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 2: So even that was a big piece at Howard. I

603
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 2: would have faculty members do their whole fancy lectures at

604
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 2: barbershops to explain these complex psychological concepts that actually have

605
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: relevance that people weren't accessing if they didn't pay tuition

606
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: to go to this place. And that was even a

607
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 2: borrow from doctor Francis cres Welson, who was a very

608
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: famous black psychiatrist who would always do community talks and conversations.

609
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: I hope I'm answering the question, but I just started thinking, yeah, yeah,

610
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: I mean I think it is.

611
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: You just kind of following and then lineage right like

612
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: that it is important to get all this stuff that

613
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: we get, but who is it serving if we're not

614
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 1: actually giving it back to the community, Like it's great

615
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 1: to be published in these journals, but like are the

616
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: people actually helped by us only writing in the journals?

617
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:14,280
Speaker 2: Exactly?

618
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: You got it, yeah, yeah, yeah. More from our conversation

619
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 1: after the break, So what would you say you said

620
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: entrepreneurship was that hard? What would you say to other

621
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: mental health professionals who maybe are interested in kind of

622
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 1: merging worlds in the way that you have done.

623
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,920
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think you have to pick one. I

624
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: don't think you have to pick one career path. I

625
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 2: think a lot of us in psychology or mental health

626
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 2: fields are multi hyphen it and sometimes we feel like

627
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: if we're good at reading and writing, we have to

628
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 2: automatically do something in school. But I think that you

629
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,240
Speaker 2: can merge whatever passion it is with learning about mental

630
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 2: health topics because health and wellness are part of every

631
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: discipline and field, and to be able to add that

632
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: mental health component, whether it's other forms of art, engineering,

633
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: the stem fields, fashion, it all can connect back to

634
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 2: mental health.

635
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: What conversations would you encourage other mental health professionals to

636
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: have about hair, because again I think that this is

637
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: something that you know, maybe black women are I think

638
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: are particularly attuned too, But I don't think the greater

639
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: clinician community is at tuned to like conversations around hair.

640
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 1: So how would you encourage them to think about hair

641
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: as a part of their work with clients.

642
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think hair is a part of everyone's mental

643
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 2: health work. Although I focus on black women I think

644
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 2: hair is a universal mental health topic. So even in

645
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 2: the past few weeks, I've been doing a lot of

646
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: ces for therapists related to hair. I think in our

647
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 2: training the only time hair really would come up traditionally

648
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: was in a mental status exam. Right, We're supposed to

649
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: assess the client the first time they ever walked through

650
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: our doors, we ever see them to see if they're

651
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: taking care of themselves. Right, We're supposed to note how

652
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 2: they're dressed, their affect, and even we can notice their hair,

653
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 2: if their hair is groomed, or if it's excessively groomed. Right,

654
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 2: in terms of every hair being in place, how to

655
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: interpret and document that? And so in the past few weeks,

656
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: being contracted to docees for a variety of companies of therapists,

657
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 2: I've been focusing on how to help clients with hair stress.

658
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,200
Speaker 2: So hair stress is actually a psychological concept developed by

659
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 2: doctor Evelyn Winfield Thomas, where she makes an argument that

660
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: we've experienced great levels of anxiety and sometimes even depression

661
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: when our hair does not look the way we want

662
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: it to look. Right, I know hair depression is real,

663
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: and that's like the social media conversation. But doctor Evelyn

664
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 2: Winfield Thomas, who's a black psychologist, has been really studying

665
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 2: this construct, using different self esteem scals and depression scales

666
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 2: and anxiety skills to be able to make an argument

667
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: that there's physical and psychological consequences to when your hair

668
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 2: doesn't look the way you want it to look. And

669
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 2: so some of the physical consequences meaning we put really

670
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: toxic chemicals in our hair, our scalp. Even if someone's natural,

671
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 2: there can still use things that have carcinogens and it

672
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 2: now everything probably has toxins and it as we get

673
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: these new reports, but just that it can actually cause

674
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 2: hair loss that we're so trying to control the way

675
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: the hair looks that it ends up falling out right

676
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 2: or it causes urine fibroids or other health issues because

677
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: we're putting certain toxins in our scalp. But again, the

678
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: psychological consequence in terms of we might hate our hair

679
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: or hate the way we look, and how to be

680
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: able to address that. And so the therapists that I've

681
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: been working with in the past few weeks is to

682
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,839
Speaker 2: actually come up with strategy and techniques to treat hair

683
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 2: stress also even to cope with hair discrimination, right with

684
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: the Crown Act that I've loved the expansion of understanding

685
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: what hair discrimination is and having policies around protecting natural hairstyles.

686
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: But once hair discrimination has happened, how does someone work

687
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 2: through that? So I've been training a lot of therapists.

688
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: If a client were to come in saying that they

689
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,279
Speaker 2: experienced hair discrimination at work, at school, and a housing opportunity,

690
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: whatever it might be, how do you walk someone through

691
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: that process of unpacking that trauma to be able to

692
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: heal from it.

693
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm also curious, I know you have done a lot

694
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,200
Speaker 1: of work doctor for you with like brands, what kind

695
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: of sentiment do you have around brands and their attention

696
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 1: and care to like black women's particular struggles with hair,

697
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: and like the conversations we have around hair and texturism,

698
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: Like what kind of sentiment do you get from working

699
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 1: with brands or just from that side m.

700
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: Okay coming with the heavy hitters that you join. Yeah,

701
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 2: I like a brand's level authenticity in terms of we

702
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 2: want to learn, we want to do better. I will

703
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: consult with a lot of brands about how to make

704
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: sure that they have enough for sea hair on their

705
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: website and on their Instagram page. I'll make sure that

706
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 2: they understand what porosity is and how it varies for

707
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 2: foresea hair, so things that we would think that they

708
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 2: know about, but it's not being communicated through their messaging.

709
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: I also, yeah, have been able to think about how

710
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: the brand should be giving back. Right, they're taking all

711
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 2: this money from our communities. Because black women spend a

712
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 2: lot on hair. We like looking good. Nothing is wrong

713
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 2: with that. But if you're gonna take so much, how

714
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: do you invest back into the community. What can you

715
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: set up in terms of scholarships for school or for internships,

716
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 2: to have someone be on your staff, and just sort

717
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: of being mindful of perpetuating white supremacy even in their

718
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: brand marketing and messaging overall, to be cautious of this

719
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,760
Speaker 2: white ideal of beauty of long, straight, white, little blonde hair,

720
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: and even being able to navigate that. And so the

721
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: brands that have reached out to me do seem to

722
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 2: have an interest in investment in wellness. Some of the

723
00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: cleaner products, but even those that are wanting to learn

724
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: to take out some of the toxins put plant based

725
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: materials in them have been in communication and community with me.

726
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 1: Mm hm. So you mentioned and we talked about this

727
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: several times. Doctor. If we have this idea that you know,

728
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: black women like to look good, right, and that is okay?

729
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: And I also think that there does become a point

730
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: at which there may be a preoccupation. Are we are

731
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: reaching some like levels of clinical concern? Can you talk about,

732
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: like where does it cross the line from like I

733
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: just like to look good to maybe we have something

734
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: that we could explore a little further.

735
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 2: So the first thing I think of, of course, is

736
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 2: body dysmorphic disorder. Right, So, body dysmorphia is this hyper

737
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 2: fixation on a perceived flaw. It means it doesn't even

738
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:20,320
Speaker 2: have to exist, but someone needs to correct or fix something.

739
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 2: So I think that's a sign of a clinical concern,

740
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 2: that it's not like, oh I just like looking good

741
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: versus something is wrong with me and therefore I need

742
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: to fix it and improve it or control it. As

743
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 2: a stylist, I've worked with clients who are very particular

744
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: about what side they want parted or how they want

745
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 2: certain parts of their style to look. But it's at

746
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: a point where someone cannot have the part on the

747
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,360
Speaker 2: left side or the middle because it can only be

748
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 2: on the right. Is where it gets a little bit

749
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 2: more concerning because not being open to change or to

750
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: see how other things look on them, it's sort of

751
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: a rigidity, and I think that's even part of it too.

752
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: But with body dysmorphia, again, even after getting a service done,

753
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 2: whether makeup or hair in the person still is unhappy

754
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 2: with how they look. So even going through all these

755
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:15,399
Speaker 2: treatments and beauty rituals, still not feeling good. I think

756
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 2: this can come up to in certain personality disorders. Just

757
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 2: even thinking about some psychological concerns where someone needs to

758
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: use their sexuality and uses their hair or beauty to

759
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 2: get attention or manipulate other people. I'm even thinking about

760
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: when it comes to eating disorders as well, in terms

761
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 2: of again a hyperfixation on weight, but even how hair

762
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 2: and beauty can be applied to that if we look

763
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 2: at psychological disorders where if a certain thought, feeling, or

764
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 2: behavior becomes dangerous impacts their ability to function in terms

765
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: of go to work or go to school, or being

766
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: a relationship, or even if their behavior can fit outside

767
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: of our cultural norms, like we do a lot to

768
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: our hair and our skin, but if it's to some

769
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 2: extreme that like we don't do that to even scale

770
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,839
Speaker 2: it in that way, and if it causes a lot

771
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: of stress, right, if the hair care process is too

772
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 2: stressful for someone, that that's where it gets into some

773
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: of the clinical levels.

774
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, doctor I Fia. I know you also had a

775
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 1: book come out recently, Laid to the Side that really

776
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: examines like young girls perceptions of hair and like their

777
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 1: stories around hair. Was there anything kind of particularly shocking

778
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: that came out of like what you learned in talking

779
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: to young women and young girls about their hair.

780
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 2: I think what surprised me the most is that the

781
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: same things that were happening to me in the nineties

782
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 2: in school are happening right now. In my head, I

783
00:43:54,360 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: thought with the natural hair movement or just changing approaches

784
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 2: to hair care, that there would be greater satisfaction, less bullying,

785
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 2: less hair harassment, But it's still happening. I think that

786
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: that's disappointing that school policies haven't shifted or changed to

787
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 2: be more embracing, and that black girls still continue to

788
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 2: be adultified and hyper punished for their creative choices, and

789
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 2: that there's still so much policing of black hair.

790
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 1: And if there's somebody who's enjoying our conversation right now,

791
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: doctor Fia, and they are navigating a complicated relationship with

792
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: their hair or some shame or some trauma or perfectionism.

793
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: As we've talked about, what's something that you'd want them

794
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 1: to be sure to hear today?

795
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: Okay, let me think about that. Okay, how about this,

796
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: When we release the need to be perfect, we can

797
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: welcome in peace.

798
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: I'll dry that. I love that. That feels like a

799
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: good quotable. So I feel like I have to end

800
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: with you giving us maybe some more hair history that

801
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: you have not shared. So you've already given us such

802
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: incredible stuff. But is there any other piece of history

803
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 1: that you want to make sure it's to share?

804
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I have thousands of years the pressure. I

805
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 2: just want to really identify how much hair was connected

806
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 2: to our liberation. So as much as we see sort

807
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 2: of like slave narratives of the hersh punishment of African people,

808
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 2: that we fought back through our hair. For example, in

809
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: order to find free places, whether in North America, the Caribbean,

810
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,840
Speaker 2: South America, we would braid maps into our hair, and

811
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: so it was this like topographical map that our ancestors

812
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 2: would make that they could turn left. At the river

813
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 2: right at the mountain, and they could feel it. If

814
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 2: they ever got caught, they would take their hair out,

815
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: they would take the braids out to be able to

816
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: protect whoever got free to stay free. So it was

817
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: through our hair that we found freedom.

818
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 1: Oh I love that. I love that. Thank you so

819
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: much for sharing that. So where can we stay connected

820
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,160
Speaker 1: with you, Doctor Fia and find out more information about psychohapy,

821
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: So any website you want to share, as well as

822
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: any social media handles.

823
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 2: Well, definitely check out psychoherapy dot org. And also we

824
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 2: have an Instagram at psychohapy or if you want to

825
00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: follow me because I give a lot of hair information

826
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 2: on my personal Instagram page which is at doctor Fia.

827
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: So Dr Underscore Afiya perfect.

828
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 1: Will we short to include all of that in the

829
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: show notes. Thank you so much for spending some time

830
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: with me today. I appreciate it.

831
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 2: Thank you.

832
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:49,799
Speaker 1: Of course, I'm so glad doctor Fia could join us

833
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 1: for today's episode and hope you enjoyed the conversation as

834
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: much as I did. To learn more about her and

835
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: her work, visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls

836
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,280
Speaker 1: dot com. Slash session for twenty one and don't forget

837
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: to text two of your girls right now and tell

838
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: them to check out the episode. Did you know you

839
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 1: could leave us a voicemail with your questions for the podcast.

840
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:11,080
Speaker 1: If you have books or movies you'd like us to discuss,

841
00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: or even thoughts about topics you'd like to hear, drop

842
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: us a message at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for

843
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: Black Girls and let us know what's on your mind.

844
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: We just might feature it on the podcast. If you're

845
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,720
Speaker 1: looking for a therapists in your area, visit our therapist

846
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory and

847
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 1: don't forget to follow us on Instagram at Therapy for

848
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 1: Black Girls or join us over in our Patreon channel

849
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: for exclusive updates, behind the scenes content, and much more.

850
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: You can join us at community do Therapy for Blackgirls

851
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Indaichuvu

852
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennis and Bradford.

853
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining me again this week.

854
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all

855
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: real soon. Take it care.

856
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: What's just what