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Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week, a former

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Speaker 1: Conservative lambas his party. In the UK, it feels like

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Speaker 1: a make or break moment for net zero. The country's

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Speaker 1: forward thinking approach to climate change has for some years

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Speaker 1: now been a source of pride. The UK was the

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Speaker 1: first major economy to create a national climate law and

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Speaker 1: to make a net zero commitment. All that has helped

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Speaker 1: the UK cut the most emissions among the world's major economies.

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Speaker 1: It has also pushed other countries to move faster by

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Speaker 1: leading the way at global climate summits, and the UK

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Speaker 1: was pivotal in pushing through the twenty fifteen Paris Agreement.

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Speaker 1: But the current government is moving away from all of that.

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Speaker 1: Prime Minister Rishi Sunak has diluted key policies and backtracked

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Speaker 1: on green commitments. It's something I asked Chris Stark of

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Speaker 1: the Climate Change Committee about earlier this year. He acknowledged

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Speaker 1: that the consensus that has existed across all political parties

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Speaker 1: on climate action could finally be at a risk of crumbling.

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Speaker 1: It's a consensus that's been taken for granted for more

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Speaker 1: than a decade, and it's a bad time to lose it.

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Speaker 1: But Stark was likely holding back in his criticism. This week,

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Speaker 1: we weighed deeper into the reality of climate politics here

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Speaker 1: in the UK. Take a listen to what a former

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Speaker 1: Conservative minister who just quit the party earlier this year

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Speaker 1: had to tell me about his party's stance on climate and.

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Speaker 2: At its current states.

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Speaker 3: The Conservative Party is endangering people's lives, people's jobs, the

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Speaker 3: opportunities for communities to grow further by taking a negative

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Speaker 3: approach from rowing back on the energy transition.

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Speaker 1: That iss more. He spent fourteen years as a member

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Speaker 1: of Parliament for the Conservatives. He was Energy Minister in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen when then Prime Minister Theresa May signed into

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Speaker 1: law net zero by twenty fifty, and later he was

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Speaker 1: tasked by his own party to review whether net zero

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Speaker 1: is good for the economy or not. You can tell

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Speaker 1: where he landed after the Conservatives started rowing back on

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Speaker 1: climate he could not in good conscious stay. In January,

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Speaker 1: he quit the party and politics altogether. He now wants

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Speaker 1: to dedicate his life to getting net zero done. I

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Speaker 1: interviewed Chris at the Climate Impact Summit in London last week,

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Speaker 1: and he did not hold back on criticizing his former

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Speaker 1: party or the weak position that the Labor Party, which

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Speaker 1: is likely to come to power in the UK next

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Speaker 1: is taking on the climate issue. Welcome to the Climate

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Speaker 1: Impact Summit and welcome to the Zero Podcast. Chris.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Even before we start and get into the conversation, it's

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Speaker 1: worth acknowledging that you're a former historian, a former politician

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Speaker 1: who is now a passionate campaigner for net zero. It's

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Speaker 1: a conversion story that might seem unusual, but as a reporter,

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Speaker 1: I've seen this happen many times, most recently here in

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Speaker 1: the UK. Alok Sharma, who is a Secretary of State

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Speaker 1: after being COP twenty six president, is now a passionate

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Speaker 1: campaigner for climate causes. What specifically makes such a conversion

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Speaker 1: happen was there a moment when you realize that what

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Speaker 1: you were doing was not just for government but was

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Speaker 1: a calling.

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Speaker 3: I think for any sort of politician, when you start

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Speaker 3: off as an elected member of parliament, you're jack of

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Speaker 3: all trades.

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Speaker 2: You cover all different.

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Speaker 3: Sort of areas of policy, and over time, obviously some

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Speaker 3: individuals focus on specific areas of policy. I originally was

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Speaker 3: my background was trying to focus on education, and I

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Speaker 3: became university as Minister, and for me, that was sort of.

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Speaker 2: Pinnacle of what I wanted to achieve.

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Speaker 3: The more I sort of got to focus on science

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Speaker 3: and technology is also part of that role. I realized

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Speaker 3: a lot of people were focusing on tackling climate, focusing

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Speaker 3: on the energy transition, and actually the more I was

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Speaker 3: exposed to this, the more I sort of realized this

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Speaker 3: was the one thing that I wanted to focus on,

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Speaker 3: and that was the sort of initial challenge I think

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Speaker 3: where I knew I was eventually move away from politics.

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Speaker 3: I didn't want to be that sort of politician that

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Speaker 3: tried to cover everything anymore. I just wanted to focus

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Speaker 3: on one thing. When I signed that zera into law

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Speaker 3: was coming up for five years, I genuinely didn't know

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Speaker 3: at the time that moment would sort of trigger a

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Speaker 3: domino effect other countries. And I think what we've seen

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Speaker 3: now policy catching up with the economics of the transition,

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Speaker 3: that you are seeing a rapid decline a neural and gas,

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Speaker 3: but the narrative, so this comes back to sort of

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Speaker 3: the historian in me hasn't called up politicians and populism

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Speaker 3: is still sort of focusing on trying to preserve the past.

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Speaker 3: When this is a transition very similar to electricity to

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Speaker 3: the petrol car. It's going to happen, and for me,

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Speaker 3: trying to articulate that has now become my passion and calls.

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Speaker 3: But I knew when I did the net zero review

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Speaker 3: and I sort of then began to focus down on

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Speaker 3: net zero, I would probably have this sort of Thomas

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Speaker 3: Moore moment where eventually I would have to be looking

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Speaker 3: at myself in the mirror and saying, well, can I

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Speaker 3: do what politicians do day and day out, which is cool,

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Speaker 3: black is white, and defend my government against all the

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Speaker 3: evidence for delivering that zero. And I reached the sort

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Speaker 3: of crossroads where I had to go because I realized

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Speaker 3: that my priorities and everything I was focusing on now

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Speaker 3: told me that new or and gas licenses were the

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Speaker 3: wrong thing to do.

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Speaker 1: So, as a historian, need to say, you care a

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Speaker 1: lot about the narratives at this political moment. It seems

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Speaker 1: like the story that both conservatives and labor are campaigning

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Speaker 1: on is that we are going too fast on net zero.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what the science says, that's not what

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Speaker 1: you believe.

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Speaker 2: So what do you.

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Speaker 1: Think is a winning strategy to change that? Narrative.

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Speaker 3: So we I think this false narrative that somehow there's

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Speaker 3: going to be a more proportionate version of net zero.

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Speaker 3: When I signed that zero into law, I was really

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Speaker 3: conscious that I was meeting with climate groups of saying

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Speaker 3: net zero isn't going far enough. And this was very

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Speaker 3: much a middle way of via media saying, look, we

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Speaker 3: could still grow the economy and decarbonize at the same time,

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Speaker 3: recognizing that there would be sort of new technological advances

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Speaker 3: eventually coming on stream, but this is what we need

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Speaker 3: to do now, and then obviously is what we need

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Speaker 3: to buy twenty thirty. So this whole idea of net

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Speaker 3: zero being somehow, or the calls of eco zalots, it's

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Speaker 3: sort of completely false.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 3: However, there is this challenge now, how do you look

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Speaker 3: at the vested interests of those that are trying to

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Speaker 3: maintain the status quo when the status co can't hold

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Speaker 3: Actually looking at oil and gas, it's not just an

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Speaker 3: environmental issue, it's an economic one. It's simply uneconomic to

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Speaker 3: invest in oil and gas that it would only come

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Speaker 3: on stream by twenty forty when the demand for aill

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Speaker 3: and gas is dropping by about forty percent. And we

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Speaker 3: need to drop by sixty five percent. So for me,

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Speaker 3: it's basing the argument in the facts and that might

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Speaker 3: seem cold, and it's not meant to be unemotional, But

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Speaker 3: what I don't want to do is see the climate

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Speaker 3: movement sort of you somehow fall into an elephant trap

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Speaker 3: of being sort of led by climate delayers who are

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Speaker 3: now were the climate delaiyers, into being seen unreasonable.

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Speaker 2: We've got to keep our heads at the same time.

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Speaker 3: I know it's really frustrating, but how do you have

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Speaker 3: that ability to prove that they're the extremists.

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Speaker 2: They are the Zalots, not you.

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Speaker 1: Well, emotions do take a hold of the narrative. We've

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Speaker 1: seen here in the UK that the government has been

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Speaker 1: pushing a strategy specifically tied to one election that happened

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Speaker 1: in London, around pushing against a policy that was supposed

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Speaker 1: to try and reduce the number of polluting cars. And

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Speaker 1: they thought it's a winning strategy, and so they used

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Speaker 1: what they thought was both an emotionally winning strategy but

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Speaker 1: also a vote winning strategy and then applied it nationally.

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Speaker 1: Now we've just recently concluded local elections here in the UK,

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Speaker 1: and that seems to have backfired. Conservatives did quite poorly.

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Speaker 1: In fact, Liberal Democrats now have more council seats than

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Speaker 1: the Conservatives too, and of course Laborer is at the

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Speaker 1: top of that chart. So is the Conservative Party wrong

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Speaker 1: to think that voters want to push against screen policies?

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Speaker 3: So just to say to start with this is not

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Speaker 3: the reason etra for our thanking, for why we need

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Speaker 3: to do net zero. I recognize it as being important

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Speaker 3: in its own right, but politically, I said at the

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Speaker 3: time when Rushie selected this rowback that this was going

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Speaker 3: to be the worst mistake of his premiership.

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Speaker 2: Now why is that the case.

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Speaker 3: It's because there are conservatives like me across the country

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Speaker 3: who believed that being a conservative also meant that you

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Speaker 3: believed in conservation and demonstrating how you were going to

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Speaker 3: ensure the best in the country was preserved at the

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Speaker 3: same time as managing change appropriately. And now throwing all

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Speaker 3: that away, he's seen conservatives like myself. You know, I've

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Speaker 3: now become independent. I resigned the Conservative whip. I've left

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Speaker 3: the Conservative Party now.

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Speaker 2: Have walked away.

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Speaker 3: And that's been replicated hundreds of thousands of times, if

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Speaker 3: not millions of times, by individuals across the country who've

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Speaker 3: now thought, well, what does the Conservative Party stand for?

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Speaker 2: And is not what I stand for?

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Speaker 3: And having this sort of future facing vision of where

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Speaker 3: the country's going rather than looking backwards and trying to

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Speaker 3: maintain the past, I think for me has been disastrous.

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Speaker 3: We've seen that in the local elections, not just obviously,

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Speaker 3: and everyone focused on Reform and it's a fault of

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Speaker 3: the media, not yourself, but obviously why was Nigel Frage

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Speaker 3: and Richard Tice ever given a platform on Question Time

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Speaker 3: when effectively Reform UK is a private company, not a

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Speaker 3: political party. And they've only won two council seats at

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Speaker 3: the local elections. The Greens actually gained one hundred and

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Speaker 3: fifty seats, one hundred and fifty six seats, sixty seven

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Speaker 3: percent increase, the largest increase of any political party. And

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Speaker 3: so actually we've seen a coalition now of those parties

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Speaker 3: that are looking to promote environment and climate succeed and

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Speaker 3: also in the mayoralties as well. The one Conservative that

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Speaker 3: won was Ben Houchin, who proudly and published a net

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Speaker 3: zero strategy for tea side that set out and I

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Speaker 3: would encourage anyone to read that strategy is a great

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Speaker 3: document that net zero is not about what we have

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Speaker 3: to lose, but what we have to gain, and framing

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Speaker 3: net zero is that opportunity was what the net zero.

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Speaker 2: Review was about.

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Speaker 3: Yes, obviously absolutely vital that we tackle the climate crisis,

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Speaker 3: but this is a moment in time that won't come again.

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Speaker 2: We're in a net zero race.

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Speaker 3: You know, if the United States has taken forward the

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Speaker 3: Inflation Reduction Act, the UK will fall further behind having

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Speaker 3: been a climate leader if we do not continue to

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Speaker 3: take action. And what we've seen with the Energy Secretary

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Speaker 3: Flerkatino is to sort of rest on the laurels and say, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, if the carbonized by fifty percent China is

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Speaker 3: so bigre only one percent, that sort of narrative that

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Speaker 3: defeat this narrative that suggests that the UK can't be

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Speaker 3: an example for the rest of the world to follow.

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Speaker 3: And for myself, you know, it's absolutely critical that we

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Speaker 3: all work together, cross party, put together this local Climate Pledge.

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Speaker 3: We've got about a one hundred council leaders to sign

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Speaker 3: ahead of the local elections, including Andy Burnham, including Tracy Braben,

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Speaker 3: to commit to working together. Because I know it's difficult

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Speaker 3: sometimes everyone has their own political allegiances, but carbon DIYX

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Speaker 3: said knows no political parties or no country borders, so

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Speaker 3: we just have to work together. And this is where

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Speaker 3: this politicization of net zero has been so tragic, and

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Speaker 3: it will cost the Conservatives even more votes at the

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Speaker 3: next general election. It's probably too late now to change

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Speaker 3: the course that Richie Senaka set himself, but people historians

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Speaker 3: will look back at this moment and recognize this was

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Speaker 3: the moment that the Conservative Party lost the country because

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Speaker 3: it no longer spoke to the country about what its

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Speaker 3: future was going.

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Speaker 2: To look like.

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Speaker 1: Well, the next general election could be happening in months

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Speaker 1: time if you believe some or before the end of

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Speaker 1: the year. Now you were a member of Parliament for

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Speaker 1: other Conservatives till January you've quit. Would it be fair

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Speaker 1: to say that, given your context for where the Conservatives

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Speaker 1: stand on climate today, that if people believe in climate change,

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Speaker 1: they shouldn't vote for the Conservatives.

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Speaker 2: I think that's right.

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Speaker 3: It's difficult to say that because there's lots of colleagues

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Speaker 3: who are friends. I've worked a large part of my

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Speaker 3: career for the Conservative Party. But in its current state,

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Speaker 3: the Conservative Party is endangering people's lives people's jobs, the

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Speaker 3: opportunities for communities to grow further by taking a negative

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Speaker 3: approach and rowing back on the energy transition.

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Speaker 2: And we can see that recent.

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Speaker 3: Report published by UK SIFTS demonstrated the sixty three percent

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Speaker 3: of companies are seeking potentially to relocate jobs in investment elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: And I wanted that investment to come to the UK,

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Speaker 3: to demonstrate that this is an opportunity that will only

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Speaker 3: come once in a generation. But what I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to do is say to anyone that this is the

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Speaker 3: particular party you know you should vote for. I mean,

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Speaker 3: Keir Starmer has these sort of mission based approaches times

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Speaker 3: very closely to my own Mission zero report, that long

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Speaker 3: term certainty and clarity you can have by having stable

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Speaker 3: policy frameworks. But I would say to anyone who's thinking

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Speaker 3: about you know how to cast their votes. You know,

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Speaker 3: look at the candidates sort of record locally, look at

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Speaker 3: obviously the cup of the seat. You will have this

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Speaker 3: moment in time, and it's so important I think personally,

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Speaker 3: it's to look at if the UK is going to

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Speaker 3: meet it's national determined contribution sixty eight percent emissions reduction,

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Speaker 3: whoever forms the government will be the stewards of that NDC.

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Speaker 3: If the UK fails to meet that NDC, it's one

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Speaker 3: of the most ambitious obviously globally. Then what's to say

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Speaker 3: any other country will want to meet their own national

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Speaker 3: determined contributions they promises they made to the UN. So

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Speaker 3: for me, this is not just about thinking about the

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Speaker 3: political party that's going to form a government. This is

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Speaker 3: actually about picking a government that's going to be the

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Speaker 3: stewards of a really important policy framework that then the

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Speaker 3: rest of the will be watching and waiting to see

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Speaker 3: whether we succeed.

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Speaker 1: So, if the polls are to be believed, Labor is

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Speaker 1: likely to come into power here in the UK, and

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Speaker 1: especially on climate Given how the Conservatives are playing the cards,

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Speaker 1: it should all be a cakewalk for Labor. Do come

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Speaker 1: up with a plan that already exists that the Climate

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Speaker 1: Rae Committee has developed, back it and make it work.

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Speaker 1: But the opposite seems to be happening. They are backtracking

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Speaker 1: on their own previous commitments made in the opposition. But

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Speaker 1: climate action is still popular with voters. So why is

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Speaker 1: it that both the major parties in the UK are

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Speaker 1: acting this way?

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Speaker 3: I remember Tony Blair once said that Labour's best when

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Speaker 3: it's boldest, and it's the case if you look at

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Speaker 3: Sidi Khan's commitment to maintaining the expansion of ulets that

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Speaker 3: he set himself a course. He put a lot of

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Speaker 3: political capital on the line and he's stuck with it,

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Speaker 3: knowing that there was this one moment in time when

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Speaker 3: this by election happened in for the UK. For those

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Speaker 3: who are familiar the Oxbridge by election, Boris Johnson resigned

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Speaker 3: his seat behame available, the Conservatives held onto it by a whisker.

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Speaker 3: If it was went four hundred and twenty five votes

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Speaker 3: the other way, we wouldn't have been having this conversation. Actually,

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Speaker 3: my resignation from Parliament was sparked also partly by trying

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Speaker 3: to course correct, to say, well, you know, it calls

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Speaker 3: one election, calls another by election, and then he lost

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Speaker 3: that to labor.

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Speaker 1: For listeners who don't live in the UK, here's a

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Speaker 1: little bit of background on that pivotal Uxbridge election and

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Speaker 1: the role climate policies played. As Chris said, the election

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Speaker 1: was set off by former Prime Minister Boris Johnson resigning

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Speaker 1: from Parliament last June. Steve Tucker, the Conservative Party candidate

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Speaker 1: vying for Boris's old seat in Uxbridge, ran a campaign

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Speaker 1: that was heavily critical of one of London Mayor Sadi

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Speaker 1: Khan's key environmental policies. Ules or the Ultra Low Emission

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Speaker 1: Zone scheme requires owners of cars that don't meet certain

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Speaker 1: emission standards to pay a hefty fee for its use.

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Speaker 1: It was introduced by Boris Johnson when he was Mayor

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Speaker 1: of London back in twenty fifteen. At that time it

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Speaker 1: only applied to central London, but under Sadi Khan its

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Speaker 1: scope was expanded. Over the years, the zone has cut

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Speaker 1: air pollution and raised millions of pounds for the city

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Speaker 1: from the fees. Ducker for the Conservatives argued it put

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Speaker 1: a too heavy burden on regular commuters. In the end,

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Speaker 1: the Conservatives narrowly held onto the seat and the party

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Speaker 1: thought doubling down on anti green policies could be a

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Speaker 1: winning strategy in local elections around the country. That backfired.

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Speaker 1: U Les remains in place and Chris says it's in

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Speaker 1: fact exactly the sort of bold policy we need for

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Speaker 1: the climate fight.

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Speaker 3: The challenge is is how to maintain that sense of boldness,

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Speaker 3: that sense of purpose, because there will always be a

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Speaker 3: reaction to every action taken, there will always be vested interests.

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Speaker 3: The role of politics and leadership is to demonstrate that

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Speaker 3: you're going to stay the course. You're going to set

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Speaker 3: out a vision and you're going to take people with you.

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Speaker 3: And the narrative focus that you need is almost like

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Speaker 3: polishing a pebble. It doesn't happen overnight. You know, you

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Speaker 3: need to work and crafted it, come back and address

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Speaker 3: faults and mistakes along the line, knowing that those are

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Speaker 3: going to be made. And I think that both political

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Speaker 3: parties are guilty of having that lack of purpose and boldness.

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't say that's the case with their millibant. He

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Speaker 3: is absolutely committed and demonstrating. But we're in a new

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Speaker 3: age now where social media creates these funnel mechanisms. GB

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Speaker 3: News is not the rest of the country and they

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Speaker 3: we shouldn't cow taw to their anti climate messaging because

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Speaker 3: the rest of the country, a silent majority, wants climate action.

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Speaker 3: See they are concerned about what that looks like and

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Speaker 3: who will pay for it, and it's an important question

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Speaker 3: about understanding how to bring investment in, which is why

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Speaker 3: I'm so passionate about trying to promote the UK because

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Speaker 3: it's not necessarily the tax pays paying for all of this,

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Speaker 3: but nevertheless set out a vision and stay the.

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Speaker 1: Course coming up. Chris responds to the current energy secretaries

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Speaker 1: claim that net zero has become a crushing leviathan of

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Speaker 1: central planning. And by the way, if you're enjoying this episode,

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Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Now, the UK Government and

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Speaker 1: the UK political parties will do their thing, but the

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Speaker 1: UK Government isn't just the political parties, it's also the

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Speaker 1: machinery behind it. And there has been a lot of

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Speaker 1: green hushing going on. So the UK Government is going

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Speaker 1: ahead with some of the policies that it's set out.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't want to advertise them as the Conservative Party.

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Speaker 1: But let's come to the specifics. A key thing you

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Speaker 1: did in your time in office is the net zero Review.

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Speaker 1: This is a report that was commissioned by Liz Truss,

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Speaker 1: who was Prime Minister for less than two months in

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Speaker 1: late twenty twenty two. You spent more time being on

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Speaker 1: the road for the review than she spent in Number ten.

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Speaker 1: By the time the document was published, she Sunak was

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Speaker 1: the Prime Minister, and you said you had one hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty five policy recommendations in the final report, most

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Speaker 1: of which you say were accepted by the government. Can

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Speaker 1: you give a specific examples of the ones that you

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Speaker 1: are most proud of that the government has deployed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, yeah, you're absolutely right.

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Speaker 3: There is the sort of green hushing going on because

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Speaker 3: of the departments and the individual civil servants to work

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Speaker 3: in them are truly committed to the transition. And I

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Speaker 3: had some of those fantastic individuals working on the net

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Speaker 3: zero review, and I think the UK is really blessed

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Speaker 3: in that regard in having that sort of policy expertise,

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Speaker 3: which why I still say we're a climate leader when

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Speaker 3: we look at the civil society movements, our universities, our

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Speaker 3: departments that are working on the transition. In terms of

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Speaker 3: some of those policy recommendations, the government accepter have about

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Speaker 3: a hundred. There are some that I wish they would

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Speaker 3: still accept that it hasn't gone across the line. A

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Speaker 3: net zero investment roadmap that would identify all these opportunities

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Speaker 3: and set out what needs to be done effectively, an

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Speaker 3: Office for net Zero, Office for Net zero Delivery. The

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Speaker 3: Australia is doing to bring all these departments together, but

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Speaker 3: of the ones that they did accept the recommendations, I

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Speaker 3: think some of the ones I'm proudest of all, including

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Speaker 3: net zero duty for off GEM, I think is absolutely

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Speaker 3: vital if we're going to move beyond what sort of

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Speaker 3: consumer price duty, the off GYM had to actually identify

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Speaker 3: where is a coordinating function in the market going to

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Speaker 3: take place. One that I was really sort of happy

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Speaker 3: that it was accepted. I wouldn't sure it was going

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Speaker 3: to be accepted was the rebalancing of gas electricity prices

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Speaker 3: that the government's now committed to taking this forwards just

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Speaker 3: fundamentally if we don't get this right, and we should

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Speaker 3: have done it sooner. Actually while the gas price was

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Speaker 3: still sort of artificially sort of high, we're not going

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Speaker 3: to be able to embed the transition at a household

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Speaker 3: level with the heat pumps and other forms of electricity

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Speaker 3: like solar panels, So that for me was a real win.

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Speaker 1: A little more on two of those policies. Off GEM

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Speaker 1: is the UK's office for gas and electricity markets, and

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Speaker 1: as of last June, of GEM was legally required to

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Speaker 1: focus on reaching net zero emissions, not just on protecting

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Speaker 1: the interests of existing and future gas and electricity cans.

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Speaker 1: The other policy Chris mentioned, rebalancing gas and electricity prices,

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Speaker 1: involves moving a green levee applied to electricity that makes

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Speaker 1: it more expensive. That levee is used to fund subsidies

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Speaker 1: for renewables and thus makes the grid cleaner. But currently

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Speaker 1: the UK uses a lot of gas for heating homes.

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Speaker 1: In the future, ideally people will use electricity to power

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Speaker 1: heat pumps, thus making electricity cheaper is key. The review

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Speaker 1: came out in January twenty twenty three. You quit in

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Speaker 1: January twenty twenty four, and of course we talked through

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Speaker 1: the change in stance for the Conservative Party in that period.

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Speaker 1: How has that affected the implementation of the recommendations that

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Speaker 1: were accepted by the government. Has there been backtracking on

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Speaker 1: the very things that they agreed on doing.

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Speaker 3: The review covered everything, so it wasn't just around looking

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Speaker 3: at the sort of focus of supply so I, but

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Speaker 3: also on the demand side, and that's where I think

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Speaker 3: there's been a real now challenge which is going to

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Speaker 3: imp act on our climate targets, which is we needed

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Speaker 3: to maintain a focus both on retrofit, on setting the

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Speaker 3: private rented sector a focus on how to commit to

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Speaker 3: minimum energy efficiency standards.

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Speaker 2: That's been scrapped.

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Speaker 3: You know, there was a need to maintain focus on

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Speaker 3: a boiler mandate as the equivalent of the TV mandate,

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Speaker 3: which would say no new gas boilers sold from X state.

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Speaker 3: I actually wanted to sort of push it further forward

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Speaker 3: to twenty thirty three instead of twenty thirty five. Year

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Speaker 3: that's been canned, and without that there is no certainty,

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Speaker 3: there is no sense that the industry will have to

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Speaker 3: move towards this, and so that in itself has been

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Speaker 3: entirely retrograde. Will probably cost households up to eight pounds

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Speaker 3: over the next ten years in additional costs on oil

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Speaker 3: and gas bills. So that was deeply regrettable. But then

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Speaker 3: on the renewable side, you know, they've done a huge

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Speaker 3: amount of positive things. They've got the Solar Task Force

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Speaker 3: is a recommendation that zero review that's coming forwards. I

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Speaker 3: am worried about potentially them sort of regrading agricultural land

440
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,160
Speaker 3: that will stop solar farms being expanded. I mean, that's

441
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 3: a political choice that will probably feature in the general election,

442
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 3: and that really then sets the sort of binary vision

443
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 3: now between is net zero going to happen. You're going

444
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 3: to vote for parties that believe in that zero. You're

445
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,239
Speaker 3: going to vote for party that no longer wants net

446
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:19,160
Speaker 3: zero to be delivered.

447
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,880
Speaker 1: So as part of the review, you were on the road,

448
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: you did a lot of listening from businesses but also people.

449
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: In April, Energy Secretary Claire Cortino give a speech warning

450
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 1: against a future where I quote a net zero leviathan

451
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: of central planning crushes our brilliant enterprise economy. Was that

452
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: what business has told you?

453
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: No, it couldn't be further from the truth.

454
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: It's probably I talked about false narratives, but this is

455
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 3: a corrupt narrative also, you know, it's simply the framing

456
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: is polar opposite to what I've seen, which is, if

457
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 3: you go around the country, there are businesses and industry

458
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 3: raring to go. They know that their supply chains internationally

459
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: are going to be effective by what is happening, and

460
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: they don't want to be crushed by a net zero

461
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 3: race where the countries are taking advantage. They want to

462
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 3: be able to sell knowing that they're producing low carbon products,

463
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 3: that they are reaching low carbon sort of targets that

464
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 3: are being required, not by government, but by other industries

465
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 3: and companies globally. But they need direction, They need certainty, clarity, consistency, continuity.

466
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 2: The four seas of policy.

467
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: Direction that identified and net zero is part of a

468
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 3: mission that would set out goals that then businesses can

469
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 3: row in behind. They need leadership, and that leadership is lacking.

470
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,479
Speaker 3: Who is this leviathan? These are straw men that are

471
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 3: being created by the government. At the moment, they simply

472
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 3: don't exist. All that exists are individuals seeking to make

473
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 3: a living, companies seeking to create growth, communities, seeking to

474
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 3: regenerate post industrial landscapes. And they need support. And that

475
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: is not a net zero leviason. That is a net

476
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 3: zero opportunity that we should be seizing.

477
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: Well, let's take all of what's happening in politics and

478
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,199
Speaker 1: let me paint a bear case for UK's future in

479
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 1: a net zero world, and I would hope you would

480
00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: respond by making a bullcase. So, for the fifteen year period,

481
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: sixteen year period that the Climate Change Act has existed, science, politics,

482
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 1: and eventually economics all aligned with a net zero target.

483
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: Now science and economics are still pretty aligned, but the

484
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 1: politics is pushing away. There's been Brexit there's been a

485
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: cost of living crisis. The National Health Service is in distress.

486
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: Putting it mildly, there is just a lot of near

487
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,399
Speaker 1: term harm that's happened to the UK economy because of

488
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: political choices or because of external impacts such as the pandemic.

489
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 1: All of that has to be dealt with. Interest rates

490
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: aren't falling anytime soon. The UK doesn't have a climate champion.

491
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: You go to the US, there's the Inflation Reduction Act

492
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: as a climate champion. Maybe, but there's Tesla. You go

493
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: to China, there's bid. You go to Denmark, there's austed.

494
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: Each country that cares and wants to do anything on

495
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: climate has a champion. The UK has the Climate Change Committee.

496
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know what the champion is. There's no

497
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 1: industry that I can pick. There's no company that I

498
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: can pick that is going to be UK's calling card

499
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: for the future. So it doesn't look very good. What

500
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: do you think is the bull case for why the

501
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,119
Speaker 1: UK's future is bright in an zero world?

502
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 3: So when I became a member of Parliament fourteen years

503
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 3: ago in twenty ten, fossil fuels made up seventy four

504
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 3: percent of hart grid renewals was made up two percent.

505
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: I stepped down in January.

506
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: Renewables then made up forty percent of rkgrid, fossil fuels

507
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 3: thirty three percent. There is a transformation that is underway

508
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 3: that is one of the most dramatic in the world.

509
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 3: And I know it's tempting to look across the oceans

510
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 3: and other countries and what they're doing, but when I've

511
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 3: traveled abroad, every other country also wants to talk about

512
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 3: the successes the UK has seen in its policy frameworks,

513
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: not least the contract for different to other countries, you know,

514
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: want to listen and learn, and they sit up when

515
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: the UK speaks, because the UK is still regarded as

516
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 3: the prime example of how to deliver a successful transition

517
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 3: that also delivers economic growth. As I mentioned, we've decarbonized

518
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 3: our economy by fifty one percent. We've also grown in

519
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 3: that period at the same time by eighty two percent.

520
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: We are a.

521
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 3: Paragon that regardless of recent sort of political headwinds, this

522
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 3: is ultimately flotsam and jets and sort of floating on

523
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: a sea that I think ultimately remains a course and

524
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 3: a current towards decarbonization that's here to stay. And if

525
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 3: we look at those opportunities within a net zero economy.

526
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: Research report show that the net zero economy grew by

527
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: nine percent in the last year alone. It's helping now

528
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 3: to hold up an economy that is fragile. But the

529
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:10,719
Speaker 3: more than an economy you can move into a net

530
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: zero economy, the stronger that economy becomes. The Net Zero

531
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: Review set out a opportunity for inward investment to trillion

532
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 3: pounds four hundred and eighty thousand new additional jobs by

533
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 3: twenty thirty five if we want it. And we're seeing

534
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: the signs now of an industrial strategy in the US

535
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 3: that is working. For every dollar of public investment, it's

536
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: returning a co private investment of five point four to

537
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 3: seven dollars and we've seen that also in the UK,

538
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 3: not necessarily from the UK government, but policy frameworks such

539
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 3: as the Bristol City Leap taken forward by.

540
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 2: The Bristol Mayor Marvin Reeese.

541
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: Seven million pounds worth of public investment has unlocked to

542
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: start with four hundred and thirty five million pounds of

543
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 3: private investment from Moresco.

544
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 2: Up to a billion pounds will follow.

545
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: The economics are moving in the direction of change, and

546
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: change is moving regardless of the government in the direction

547
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: of net zero. The case for net zero is that

548
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 3: it's here to stay. It is happening. It just depends

549
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: on how slow or how fast we want this transition

550
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 3: to happen.

551
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: And now you're taking this message abroad. In March of

552
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: this year, you launched Better Earth. It's an initiative that's

553
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: supposed to help countries achieve net zero. And you say

554
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: it's not a consultancy, it's not McKinsey, it's not a

555
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: think tank, it's not the Tony Blair Institute. The idea,

556
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: if I understand it, is that you assemble teams to

557
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: build and get these net zero projects off the ground

558
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: around the world. Could you talk us through some specific

559
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: projects you're working on.

560
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

561
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: Sure.

562
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: So when I stepped down, I sort of said I

563
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 3: wanted to commit, as I said Earliert the beginning of

564
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: the podcast, that I wanted to commit the rest of

565
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 3: my career's net zero. Obviously, I want to help focus

566
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 3: on what's going on in the UK, but if we're

567
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 3: going to meet our missions reduction targets of fifty by

568
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 3: twenty thirty, I also want to try to help other

569
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 3: countries as well, and I've been sort of cooped up

570
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 3: in Westminster the last fourteen years, and it's having the

571
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 3: opportunity to spread my wings and think how to help

572
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 3: other countries has been a passion of mine. So what

573
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 3: I'd quite like to do with Better Earth is to

574
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: almost take a net zero review process forwards to help

575
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: other countries, partly with their national determined contributions that have

576
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: to be prepared ahead of Brazil, but even beyond that,

577
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 3: to try and help them think through strategies that are

578
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: going to create that sense of ownership and take people

579
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 3: and industries in business with them. Because the transition isn't

580
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 3: secured in other countries, there is an opposition.

581
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: So what I'm quite keen to.

582
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,239
Speaker 3: Do with Better Earth is to try to work with

583
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 3: governments and also some of those sectors in helping to

584
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 3: prepare documentation that could be used with that.

585
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: Also, we've got.

586
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: Potential sort of engineering teams that would focus on some

587
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 3: of them, maybe you can call it low hanging through

588
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: capping oil wells, reducing sort of methane emissions, trying to

589
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: look at what can be done ahead of twenty thirty

590
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: it was only sixty something months away. And also we've

591
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: got the potentially the investment that would come in so

592
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: and asking governments for any money. So I see this

593
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: as a wrap around approach to just get on with

594
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 3: the job. It's absolutely vice. So obviously we meet sort

595
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 3: of our climate finance commitments that are a COP twenty nine,

596
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 3: whether that's the Loss and Damage Fund, whether that's new

597
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 3: quantified collective finance goal. But we can't wait for COPS

598
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 3: to swing into action. So what I want to try

599
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 3: to do with better is is to get in on

600
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 3: the ground and make things happen now.

601
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: But for good or bad, your credibility when you go

602
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: abroad and when you try and get these projects off

603
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: the ground will be tied to the UK, will be

604
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 1: tied to your achievements, and government will be tied to

605
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: your party's achievement in government. Whereas Johnson has joined Better Earth,

606
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: you know he quit as an MP in the Conservative Party.

607
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: So why do you think you will be able to

608
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 1: convince other countries to do the stuff that they need

609
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: to do on net zero when you couldn't convince your

610
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: own party.

611
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 2: It's a very good question.

612
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: I mean, I think what I did manage to do

613
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 3: is convince business and industrial communities to maintain their focus

614
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 3: and that's what they've done. I think with the net

615
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 3: zero review, time and time again have people coming up

616
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: to me and saying, this is fantastic. We've been given

617
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: this opportunity to have a voice, and that voice wasn't

618
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: really heard previously. And also the review allowed for every

619
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: sector to sort of see in itself what needed to

620
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 3: be happening across the piece. So I think there is

621
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 3: a narrative moment that I hope I can take to

622
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: other countries. And I would say, you know, with Boris

623
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: Johnson joining as co chair, obviously he has been committed

624
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: to net zero. He took forwards the COP twenty six,

625
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 3: the Glasgow Climate Pact. He's recently come back from an

626
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 3: event with the COP twenty eight president, and he's committed

627
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 3: to trying to work internationally on decarbonization and taking climate action.

628
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 3: And we have to work with everyone. And that's the

629
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: challenge is that, yes, we've we've got to put our

630
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 3: sort of political allegiances, sometimes our own individual personal views aside.

631
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: So I said Carbon dox side knows no borders, it

632
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 3: knows no political parties. One of the challenges we are

633
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: facing this year internationally is this is obviously the year

634
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 3: of elections and more elections being held internationally than I

635
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 3: think any other of the year, and obviously particularly with

636
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 3: America if Donald Trump comes back, we've got to continue

637
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 3: to be able to make the center right case, even

638
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: if you are not personally center right for delivering on

639
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 3: the transition, but it won't happen otherwise. So for me,

640
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 3: bringing anyone on board who's going to be able to

641
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: try to make that case, working with any country that

642
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: is going to need help is vital. And I think

643
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 3: sometimes personally that can seem strange, that you might be

644
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,479
Speaker 3: decisions might be taken, but that's what we need to do,

645
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 3: and I think anyone working in climate recognizes we have

646
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 3: to work with everyone who's willing to be able to

647
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:46,720
Speaker 3: be engaged with and that's.

648
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 2: What I hope two intend to do.

649
00:34:48,719 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: Thank you, Chris, Thank you very much. Thank you for

650
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: listening to Zero. If you liked this episode, please take

651
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: a moment to rate or review the show on Apple

652
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a friend or

653
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: with someone who loves political defections. You can get in

654
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: touch at zero pod at Bloomberg dot Net. Zero's producer

655
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,400
Speaker 1: is Mithy Lira, Our theme music is composed by Wonderly

656
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: Special Thanks to Kirra Byndrim Alisha Clanton, and to climate

657
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: impacts Stephen Murphy and Socia kelders I am Akshatrati back

658
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 1: so