1
00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:04,120
Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody welcomed Episode ninety two of The Hunting Collective.

2
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,680
Speaker 1: I am Benjamin Patrick O'Brien, and I'm joined by Phil

3
00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:15,560
Speaker 1: middle name Taylor, Charles Philip Charles Taylor, Charles Taylor, Philip

4
00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,480
Speaker 1: Charles Taylor, the third. He's also an engineer. Here eater,

5
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,000
Speaker 1: and we're bringing to you another show, another week, another show.

6
00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:28,000
Speaker 1: This one is good. I promise. We have Ryan cal Callahan,

7
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:33,440
Speaker 1: host of Cow's Weekend Review, mustachioed man of mystery. You

8
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,960
Speaker 1: will very much enjoy what he has to say. We

9
00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: talked about Phil's first hunt. You're more excited now, Phil, Oh, yeah, definitely.

10
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:43,599
Speaker 1: I mean it hasn't you said Phil's first hunt? Just

11
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,600
Speaker 1: it hasn't happened yet. Clarification. No, I'm trying to build, Uh,

12
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm trying to build suspense Phil's first hunt, which hasn't

13
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,200
Speaker 1: happened yet. And uh, how to mentor what it means

14
00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 1: to be a mentor how to do it a little

15
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,480
Speaker 1: bit better. Coyle's got a great perspective on that. He's

16
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,960
Speaker 1: been taking new hunters out for a long time, thinking

17
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 1: about this for a long time, and so we're gonna

18
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,640
Speaker 1: do that. We got a work sharp master sharp moment.

19
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: We're dwindling down on the number of those we're gonna run,

20
00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 1: so you'll hear about that. And then we went to Princeton,

21
00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,120
Speaker 1: New York to hang out or Princeton, New Jersey, sorry,

22
00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,440
Speaker 1: to hang out with Tovar Ceruli. He's the author of

23
00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,120
Speaker 1: the book The Mindful Carnivore was a vegan and became

24
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 1: a hunter, wrote about that. But in the years since

25
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:29,920
Speaker 1: he's written that book, he's done a lot for conservation,

26
00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:31,959
Speaker 1: does a lot of work in the field. So it's

27
00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,760
Speaker 1: great chat with Tovar. But before we get to that, Phil,

28
00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,240
Speaker 1: I just burped, did you cut it out? Yes, it

29
00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 1: has been cut out. Expose the listeners today. No, I'm sorry.

30
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:56,160
Speaker 1: We'll keep going. And now this episode, I guess I

31
00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: grew up on an older road. The medal always did

32
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,840
Speaker 1: what I told until I found out that my brand

33
00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,120
Speaker 1: new clothes a game second hand from the rich kids

34
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,079
Speaker 1: next door. And I grew up fast. I guess I

35
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:12,880
Speaker 1: grew up. I mean, there are a thousand things inside

36
00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: of my head I wish I ain't seen, And now

37
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,600
Speaker 1: I just wanted to a real bad dream of being

38
00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,919
Speaker 1: in like I'm coming apart of the scenes. But thank

39
00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,600
Speaker 1: you Jack Daniel. Oh hey, everybody, welcome to episode number

40
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,000
Speaker 1: ninety two. Is that right, Phil? Ninety two? That's correct,

41
00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 1: I get it right. Yeah, uh Episode ninety the Hunting Collective.

42
00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: We're coming to you from Bosman, Montana inside the uh

43
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,400
Speaker 1: wonderfully adorned podcast studio. Phil, do you have anything to

44
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,920
Speaker 1: do with this? Absolutely nothing? That would be a producer?

45
00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 1: Karin Karne Schneider. Oh boy, y'all star. They all star.

46
00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:49,840
Speaker 1: They did all this decorating. There's a small tree in

47
00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,239
Speaker 1: the middle, Whites. It's wonderful. Coconut air freshener. Cal. Do

48
00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,960
Speaker 1: you have any Christmas traditions or anything like that that

49
00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,040
Speaker 1: you do. I like to go hunting or I do

50
00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:06,919
Speaker 1: a lot of cooking, simple but effective, very on brand.

51
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,360
Speaker 1: It's very similar to many of the other days of

52
00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 1: the year. Generally, it's like you have time off and

53
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,399
Speaker 1: you want to do the things you don't do when

54
00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:22,720
Speaker 1: you have to work, which is cook, eat, hunt, hang

55
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,160
Speaker 1: around with your family. I don't really have any Christmas traditions.

56
00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,280
Speaker 1: In fact, I'm not really that big into Christmas. Cal.

57
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:36,280
Speaker 1: I will admit I have a hard time with Christmas because, um,

58
00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,360
Speaker 1: there's just like a lot of undo pressure that people

59
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,840
Speaker 1: put on themselves, which is I just find to be like,

60
00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,480
Speaker 1: absolutely not the point at all at all. In fact,

61
00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 1: I've told many of my aunts and high moments of stress,

62
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:56,080
Speaker 1: like if people don't like the way your food turned out,

63
00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 1: fuck those people. Fuck them. That's kind of like my

64
00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:05,280
Speaker 1: Christmas saying fuck him, fuck him if I didn't if

65
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 1: you didn't get the president you liked. I don't buy

66
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 1: anybody presents. Do you buy presents from people? Cow? I

67
00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:15,440
Speaker 1: buy presents when I'm like, oh, this is like the thing, Yeah,

68
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,560
Speaker 1: this is a necessary thing. And I'm kind of getting

69
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:23,040
Speaker 1: um a little bit. And my sister knows this, My

70
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 1: older sister knows this. Um. But I feel like she

71
00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: is now gone to like, well, I'm gonna make sure

72
00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: I get you presents because I want you to get

73
00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 1: your nephew presents because now he's old enough to like

74
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:39,960
Speaker 1: put two and two together. Because she's guilt tripping you,

75
00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,080
Speaker 1: I feel. But I mean, that's just like growing up

76
00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,479
Speaker 1: in a big Catholic family. That's Catholic guilty. She's gonna

77
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,719
Speaker 1: I feel so guilty already now I do. I will.

78
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,159
Speaker 1: I wouldn't buy gifts for children, That's fine. I have

79
00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 1: eight nieces and nephews, uh, and a son. That's nine

80
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,279
Speaker 1: people right there. I gotta buy gifts for that's enough.

81
00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:05,799
Speaker 1: If you're an adult, live with it. You're not getting

82
00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,080
Speaker 1: gifts from me. Phil, I'm not gonna get anything. I

83
00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,120
Speaker 1: don't want anything. Yeah, you know i'd be mad if

84
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,040
Speaker 1: you got me again. Yeah, I'll be mad if you

85
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 1: get me again. Don't worry. I was gonna get you

86
00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:17,520
Speaker 1: a Star Wars Christmas sweater, and now I'm not because

87
00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 1: I'm upset you're not gonna get me something. My uncle

88
00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,360
Speaker 1: Mike on my mom's side said one time. If it's

89
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,000
Speaker 1: not if I can't drink it or eat it, I

90
00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:30,640
Speaker 1: don't want to. And I think that's that's perfect. Perfect.

91
00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,159
Speaker 1: I feel like the older you get, the more of

92
00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:36,200
Speaker 1: that is how people. It was just my birthday and

93
00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,840
Speaker 1: my family just got me like cake, and and then

94
00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,320
Speaker 1: they're like, here's some cookies, and they here's some chocolate

95
00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,960
Speaker 1: covered pretzels and here's a cupcake. It's like, holy sh it,

96
00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,919
Speaker 1: you guys got it. I'm gonna get diabetes. Here's some

97
00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,920
Speaker 1: whiskey to wash it down. Perfect. That's great. And so

98
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 1: I do not like the holiday season for many reasons.

99
00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:58,640
Speaker 1: There's plenty of nostalgic reasons that I like to do it.

100
00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,039
Speaker 1: I do own a home them with the suburbs cow.

101
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm gonna put lights up? Probably not.

102
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,159
Speaker 1: Oh what's your h o A say about that? Do

103
00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 1: they get? But I don't know. I don't talk to them.

104
00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:10,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's something in there like, well, you know

105
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 1: you have to have to if you don't know, what

106
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:15,599
Speaker 1: about you phil you put up lights. I bet I

107
00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,320
Speaker 1: had lights up before. Thanks guys, and my h o

108
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,840
Speaker 1: A is usually pretty strict that they were fine with it.

109
00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: They're like, they don't care what you do for Christmas.

110
00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 1: I think they're they're all about it. Are there h

111
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,680
Speaker 1: o as in this world that forced you to put

112
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,360
Speaker 1: up decorations? Oh? Guaranteed, really guaranteed. I wasn't aware. Yeah,

113
00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,600
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it. I'm not a good suburban homeowner.

114
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,600
Speaker 1: I would tell you that right now. It's not looking

115
00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,640
Speaker 1: good over there. I just I don't like that it's

116
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,720
Speaker 1: Christmas or whatever, so you have to I'm like, no,

117
00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,440
Speaker 1: it's days off. Yeah, like you don't have to do

118
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,560
Speaker 1: anything anything now Again, I would I would defer if

119
00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:57,599
Speaker 1: my kid says Hey, I'd love to put up some lights.

120
00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:01,120
Speaker 1: I'd like, all right for you, I'll do anything. Yeah,

121
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,919
Speaker 1: But like I'm not inclined to go out and and

122
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 1: do all that. Yeah. And I'm I'm a good helper outer.

123
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,840
Speaker 1: I like, like, if I have a job, I'll be happy,

124
00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,520
Speaker 1: much more happy to go do that job for you,

125
00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:18,280
Speaker 1: mom or grandma or whoever. Um. But the reality is,

126
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:24,240
Speaker 1: like this holiday is not for me. Yeah, thanksgivings for me.

127
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,920
Speaker 1: Like we you guys have a lot of grandchildren and

128
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,760
Speaker 1: great grandchildren and and that's what the focus is on.

129
00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:35,240
Speaker 1: And that's great. Um, And so why don't I, like,

130
00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,040
Speaker 1: I'll just steer clear and come see you on our

131
00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,240
Speaker 1: non busy times and then we can actually hang out

132
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,360
Speaker 1: and chat and catch up. And then I'm into it. Phil,

133
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,040
Speaker 1: Your children get that you shower them with gifts. I

134
00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 1: wouldn't call it a shower. Get each a few few things,

135
00:07:54,760 --> 00:08:00,280
Speaker 1: you guys go a sponge bath of gifts? It trickle

136
00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,800
Speaker 1: of moist washcloth? Yeah, yes, sort of a yes, sort

137
00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 1: of a water boarding of gifts the opposite. Delete that

138
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,280
Speaker 1: from the show. I'm not waterboarding children. What is the

139
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: big gift? That's something I am always interested in well

140
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,000
Speaker 1: in Santa for the big gift, but Santa usually yeah,

141
00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,960
Speaker 1: it's usually one big gift from Santa and then um,

142
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,080
Speaker 1: their their mom and myself handpick like you know, three

143
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,760
Speaker 1: or four smaller things take the ar Yeah. Yeah. I

144
00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,400
Speaker 1: got socks and gloves every year of my life until

145
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 1: I was eighteen from someone in my family. I remember

146
00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:44,400
Speaker 1: as a kid telling him like, don't worry about it,

147
00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,560
Speaker 1: like I got somebody for that. My mom has the

148
00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:50,719
Speaker 1: whole inventory list of what I what I got and

149
00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,760
Speaker 1: I don't got, so I'm good, like, just just give

150
00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,880
Speaker 1: that money to somebody that needs it. But the gift

151
00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:01,800
Speaker 1: giving is an intense, intense to edition. Yeah, the wheels

152
00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,760
Speaker 1: fell off real hard on the gift giving side of

153
00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 1: things for me because I was like, you know, like

154
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:11,440
Speaker 1: knick knacks like framed pictures and things, and I'm like, yeah,

155
00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,240
Speaker 1: it's very thoughtful, it's great, but I'm like, I live

156
00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,320
Speaker 1: in my truck right where like you guys can either

157
00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,760
Speaker 1: hang onto this or I have to take it to Goodwill.

158
00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 1: Now it's practical. I appreciate that. With your gifts, could

159
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: you also get me a storage unit okay for six

160
00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,560
Speaker 1: months rent? Please? Yeah, Well, we got a lot to

161
00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,280
Speaker 1: get to a lot of get you here, we're gonna

162
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 1: Last week or maybe one of these weeks, we talked

163
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,080
Speaker 1: about a term. Have you ever heard this term cow

164
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,719
Speaker 1: for a small buck called slingshot, buckhole, sling shot. I

165
00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,640
Speaker 1: can see that. I've never seen it, Like you got

166
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,520
Speaker 1: the sling shot, you got four ky Do you have

167
00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,360
Speaker 1: any other names? You've got a couple people right in

168
00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: one dude. Actually, Kyle Hurtzog actually drew a T shirt daddy.

169
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,040
Speaker 1: I don't even understand what it is, so I'm not

170
00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 1: gonna explain it. But um, he had a bunch of

171
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,280
Speaker 1: different ideas for what we would call small bucks. You

172
00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,800
Speaker 1: got any other names? Any lingo for for a small buck?

173
00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,480
Speaker 1: You give me spike buck, forky buck. Oh no, I

174
00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 1: mean yeah, But they're like in kind of the moment thing.

175
00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 1: It's not like something I would because I shot a

176
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 1: small buck this year, um at the end of the season,

177
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 1: and you know, but I'm like, oh, here's Adnkerdinker. That's

178
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,240
Speaker 1: a good one, little Dnker, little feller, which is just

179
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,120
Speaker 1: unfort like I hesitate to say it because it sounds derogatory,

180
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,959
Speaker 1: but it's like very happy, like I'm gonna eat that buck.

181
00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:44,840
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna give my elk to my dad because

182
00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:46,920
Speaker 1: that's what he thinks is like the best meat is

183
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,320
Speaker 1: elk meat. So I'm gonna I'm gonna have this delicious

184
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,880
Speaker 1: little fellow. Yes, exactly. Um, some other things. There's a

185
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that's come up. Last week we had

186
00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 1: Maggie on was that last week? That wasn't even last week?

187
00:10:58,840 --> 00:10:59,960
Speaker 1: I don't even know what week I think it was.

188
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,840
Speaker 1: And Joe Maggie and Joe. Last week, Thanks Phil episode

189
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,080
Speaker 1: ninety one, Maggie told us about her first year. Sweet

190
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,760
Speaker 1: I was just binge listening to uh col's weekend review

191
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,520
Speaker 1: yesterday while I was doing some stuff around the house.

192
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,760
Speaker 1: You caught up on all the caught up on all

193
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 1: the ones that missed over the last month or so,

194
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,840
Speaker 1: and you were talking about philosophies about taking new hunters.

195
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 1: You didn't tell the story of of our new hunter

196
00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:25,880
Speaker 1: and here you took that guy her first buck. But

197
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,480
Speaker 1: you kind of gave your philosophies for how to set

198
00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:33,400
Speaker 1: these things up for success because they are quite um,

199
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:35,000
Speaker 1: they're fraught with a lot of things you can do

200
00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,440
Speaker 1: wrong a mentor standpoint. Absolutely, yeah, And so we have

201
00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,000
Speaker 1: somebody in the room here Phil, it's Phil who's gonna

202
00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,720
Speaker 1: be a new hunter soon in we're putting the Phil

203
00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:51,320
Speaker 1: ghost hunting plan into full action, full action. We don't

204
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,600
Speaker 1: know what we're gonna do yet, what's gonna be great?

205
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,880
Speaker 1: So having you here, like we need to interview Phil

206
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,640
Speaker 1: about what he's feeling and try to help them get

207
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,840
Speaker 1: prepared for for what's to come. So I figured you'd

208
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,839
Speaker 1: be the perfect first person to kind of figure out

209
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: what hunt we might want to do and how we

210
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,800
Speaker 1: might want to settle fill up here for ultimate success

211
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:17,000
Speaker 1: in the field. Yeah, I'm really honestly, I'm ready to

212
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,240
Speaker 1: hear it. We'd start with with your goal. You know,

213
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,280
Speaker 1: it's like what why would you want to go hunting? Like,

214
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 1: what what do you want to get out of it?

215
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 1: All right, give it to us, Phil, while you want

216
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: to go hunting, I'm making you go number one. I

217
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 1: don't know the reason. Number two is that it's just

218
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,760
Speaker 1: I guess it's a man. The older I get, the

219
00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,040
Speaker 1: harder it is to kind of find new experiences, you know,

220
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,199
Speaker 1: And this is something that I feel like, is it

221
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,960
Speaker 1: would be I mean, i'd I'd like to imagine it

222
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,719
Speaker 1: would be like exciting and new and fulfilling in its

223
00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 1: own way. Um, I guess I'm not going to know

224
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,920
Speaker 1: until I get out there. Uh So I'm not really compelled,

225
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,920
Speaker 1: but I guess I'm curious. Is the is the word? Yeah? Yeah,

226
00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,920
Speaker 1: not unwilling exactly. Yeah. Would you do it if you

227
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 1: didn't work here? If you I can say no, I

228
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 1: would not. Yeah. And it's and it's just because I mean,

229
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 1: I've told the story a hundred times on various podcasts,

230
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 1: but it's just I didn't grow up with hunting, and

231
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,840
Speaker 1: I don't know until I started working here, I didn't

232
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,560
Speaker 1: really know any hunters. Um, so I never I'm sure

233
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,880
Speaker 1: I never would have would have I would have done it,

234
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,440
Speaker 1: so yeah yeah. Um so would you say, like you

235
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,640
Speaker 1: want to try to kill something? Yeah? I think so. Yeah.

236
00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:37,839
Speaker 1: Spent a lot of time thinking about it, like I

237
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,960
Speaker 1: don't at all. I mean, like that's the I'm trying

238
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 1: to think. I trying to put my practicing with stray

239
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,840
Speaker 1: cats and behind the house just three or four a

240
00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 1: week and even get him in the microwave anymore. Yeah,

241
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess. I it's it's hard because I

242
00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,240
Speaker 1: haven't really Um, I'm sure it'll become more of a

243
00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,199
Speaker 1: reality next year. But I haven't really thought down and

244
00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,480
Speaker 1: kind of put myself in that headspace yet. But yeah,

245
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,000
Speaker 1: it's like, like I said, I'm not really I'm not

246
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,600
Speaker 1: really compelled to do it and do it yet, but

247
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,679
Speaker 1: I'm I'm just I'm willing to try something new. Um.

248
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like everyone here always it seems

249
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 1: to do put a lot of thought into it and

250
00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 1: do it for the right reasons. And yeah, I don't

251
00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: think I could choose a better experience than having mentors

252
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:26,440
Speaker 1: here in Meat Eater. Um. Yeah nice, um, oh yeah,

253
00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: it's the hard thing is is for the mentor especially

254
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,400
Speaker 1: is truly just like focusing on this is the time

255
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 1: that I have dedicated to help another person out and

256
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,160
Speaker 1: really separating yourself and and saying like I am just

257
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:51,760
Speaker 1: here to facilitate this first and foremost. Um. And you

258
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: know it that that takes a lot. And you know,

259
00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: I know a lot of folks that I know that

260
00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,280
Speaker 1: just aren't really up for that task, whether if they're

261
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,000
Speaker 1: being honest with themselves, which is hard to do well.

262
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,600
Speaker 1: And it's an incredible it takes an incredible amount of

263
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,560
Speaker 1: maturity on a lot of levels. And um, we had

264
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,920
Speaker 1: Maggie and Joe Fornado in here, and Joe talked openly

265
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,800
Speaker 1: about like I could shut the book. I could, I

266
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,960
Speaker 1: could shot ten times. And when he was talking to

267
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,240
Speaker 1: me about it, like and he's in his mid twenties,

268
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: he's fired up about hunting. That's all he cares about.

269
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 1: That's all he wants to do. Um. For him to

270
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: be able to separate that enough to to get Maggie

271
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: good experiences is a big thing. But to do it's

272
00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:33,400
Speaker 1: a way that you talk about it when it takes

273
00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: lots of maturity. Yeah, and and but the reality is

274
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 1: too is like I have I don't think I've ever

275
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: taken a first time hunter out when I haven't put

276
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 1: an elk in the freezer. So like archery season, putting

277
00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:50,480
Speaker 1: elk in the freezer. Once that's done, like absolutely more

278
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:55,479
Speaker 1: than game too, you know, go out and call um

279
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,800
Speaker 1: or you know, get and then dedicated some time to

280
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:03,600
Speaker 1: the first time hunter set up so um. And then

281
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,640
Speaker 1: the other part is just just that whole honesty factor

282
00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,960
Speaker 1: with yourself over and over again and recognizing all these

283
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000
Speaker 1: things that you've come to take for granted, which is

284
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:20,640
Speaker 1: just the the sheer gravity of the situation. Um, and

285
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,400
Speaker 1: we saw that a little bit this week out on

286
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,920
Speaker 1: the back forty with Anna Borgman, who's somebody who um

287
00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 1: has you know, dispatched domestic livestock um as a butcher,

288
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 1: and we've let up to this first time hunt of

289
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,360
Speaker 1: hers and then you know, Mark Kenyon's got a deer

290
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: hanging in his barn and you could just see, like

291
00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, like we just sighted in the

292
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:54,400
Speaker 1: muzzle order, which absolutely new experience, like there's a little

293
00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,240
Speaker 1: bit of firearms experience there, but certainly nothing like that.

294
00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:02,760
Speaker 1: And then it's like, oh, and here is what you're after,

295
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:06,800
Speaker 1: and you could just see like the wheels really turn,

296
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,240
Speaker 1: the eyes widen a little bit, like she reaches out

297
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,640
Speaker 1: and grabs the buck by the ear kind of fondly,

298
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,280
Speaker 1: and it's like, oh boy, like really like, oh yeah,

299
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,639
Speaker 1: here it is some emotion. Yeah, and uh it, you

300
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:28,679
Speaker 1: know it should be that way, and the it is

301
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 1: being honest with the gravity of the situation. Firearms are

302
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,879
Speaker 1: freaking big, scary, superintimidating things for people who did not

303
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,840
Speaker 1: grow up with firearms. I mean, it's just absolute deal

304
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,200
Speaker 1: and you don't want to jump past that fact because

305
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,959
Speaker 1: you can die. And that first time you can have

306
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:56,679
Speaker 1: a life altering experience in the absolute negative way, you know,

307
00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,040
Speaker 1: if all of a sudden they cause harmed in themselves

308
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 1: or somebody else, you know, and and just a lapse

309
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,640
Speaker 1: of cognition, right, just just a total well I thought

310
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 1: the safety was on. I didn't remember that there was

311
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: around in the chamber all the jillion little things. And

312
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: and something that I have noticed and picked up on

313
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,040
Speaker 1: is when we were young, then I'm guarantee you this

314
00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 1: way um, And Lakata put this in a really funny

315
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,520
Speaker 1: way too, I was like, well, you know, something that

316
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,760
Speaker 1: I've noticed is like when I was growing up, when

317
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:37,800
Speaker 1: it is your father or your uncle, um, and you're

318
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:43,399
Speaker 1: this young child, they absolutely harass the ship out of

319
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 1: you on gun safety in a way that you would

320
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,360
Speaker 1: never speak to an adult. And you don't have you're

321
00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:53,640
Speaker 1: not in a position in life where you're speaking back

322
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,400
Speaker 1: to people. I mean, you just aren't about like shut up, dad,

323
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 1: it's not gonna happen. It's not like I got it, Yeah,

324
00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:06,080
Speaker 1: I got it, But I get you. I've experienced a

325
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,240
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of this in my life where

326
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,719
Speaker 1: you have someone either that's a veteran hunter that just

327
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,680
Speaker 1: isn't paying attention that day, or isn't used to this situation,

328
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,440
Speaker 1: or a new hunter. And then that person goes away.

329
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:19,960
Speaker 1: You get in the truck and somebody goes, oh, did

330
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,640
Speaker 1: you see did you see the terrible muzzle control? I'm like, well,

331
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,199
Speaker 1: you should, you should speak up. Don't tell me in

332
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 1: the truck, tell that person in the moment. They gotta man. Absolutely,

333
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 1: because I've I was guided half and half guiding a

334
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,159
Speaker 1: hunt in Texas when I lived down there, and the

335
00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 1: guy totally had an accidental discharge when a turkey shotgun

336
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: in the middle of the morning. I'm explaining, he's pointing

337
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,320
Speaker 1: it in luckily in the air, but all you would

338
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:45,880
Speaker 1: have had to do is drop it down pointed towards

339
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,359
Speaker 1: me and I'd be dead. Yeah, was explaining to him,

340
00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,480
Speaker 1: like the turkey's roost over here, and we're gonna go

341
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 1: down this road and drop down in the bottom and boom.

342
00:19:54,160 --> 00:20:00,360
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, okay, we're not gonna see

343
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 1: anything now. Um, but that I've seen a couple of

344
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,400
Speaker 1: I had a couple instintes like that, and so um,

345
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: if you think it's far away but it's not, it's close.

346
00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, And and like I said it Leocotta put it.

347
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: He's like, it's not really abuse, but it kind of

348
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:19,399
Speaker 1: is a little bit like when that figure and you're

349
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: a small child is like hey hey, hey, hey, hey,

350
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,520
Speaker 1: hey hey all the time. And again, we just don't

351
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 1: speak to adults that way, but it is so hardwired

352
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,600
Speaker 1: into how I operate at this point, and I know

353
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be if it weren't for that. And so

354
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,680
Speaker 1: that is something if you are taking out any adult

355
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:46,479
Speaker 1: as a first time hunter, like that is some you know,

356
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:50,720
Speaker 1: people don't like conflict, people don't like you know, uh,

357
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: frustrating situations or tense situations, Like you have got to

358
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 1: get over that and you've got to say, hey, up front,

359
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 1: I am going to be remind ending you of this

360
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:06,720
Speaker 1: this entire time, like like that's just the way it's

361
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,360
Speaker 1: going to be. Yeah, I'm happy to carry the firearm

362
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: for you if you feel uncomfortable with this scenario, but

363
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: that's how it's gonna be. Yeah, there's a lot of

364
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: those moments, right, Like gun safety is one of them,

365
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,440
Speaker 1: but there's another thing, like dealing with life and death.

366
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 1: How much do we want to talk about it. I

367
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: don't want to sit down to lecture feel about life

368
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 1: and death for an hour before we go hunt, and

369
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,199
Speaker 1: I feel like that, Yeah, Phil probably wouldn't enjoy that,

370
00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: and we're all thinking like it just needs to be enjoyable. Yeah,

371
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 1: you don't want to be like, well Phil, this is

372
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,040
Speaker 1: more that this is about our human existence. We are

373
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 1: but a virus on the land. But thanks. When I'm

374
00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:44,200
Speaker 1: a thirty year old hunting, like I have children back, Yes,

375
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: i have children, I'm raising them, but like, have that

376
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 1: first time hunter feel like if you are successful, like

377
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: feel that wound channel that a bullet creates. Yeah, like

378
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: that's impactful ship right there. Well, how many times have

379
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 1: you run into I've taken a number of hunters were

380
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 1: everything seems okay until the moment the animal drops within sight.

381
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 1: You will or you walk up to it and it's

382
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 1: still twitching. Yeah, the muscle, the nerves are still firing off,

383
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: the muscles are still twitching. What sometimes happens for quite

384
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 1: a while, depending on how fresh, freshly deceased the animal is.

385
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: I've seen people freak out at that. I think it's

386
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 1: it's one it's a foreign thing, and two you're if

387
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: you've never killed something, you wanted to go clean and

388
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: I've had multiple people shoot again, shoot it again. I

389
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 1: did that as a kid. I was like, got shoot

390
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 1: it again, And he did shout this deer in the

391
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: neck that he had already just crumpled. Um. That's something

392
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 1: to deal with. And I and I wonder if you

393
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: have any opinions on why it is like that. Why

394
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: is it that a lot of these new hunters are

395
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: getting that situation. They see it and they just want

396
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,879
Speaker 1: that movement to stop. They Man, It's just it takes

397
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: being around a lot of death to be comfortable with

398
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: death and knowing what it is like, knowing when you

399
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 1: know the when that animal has passed right, Um. And

400
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: when Sam shot her buck, I mean it was dead,

401
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 1: like it took the couple of jumps on adrenaline because

402
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: it was on alert chasing that dough and it was

403
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:23,480
Speaker 1: dead dead. Um. But when I started skinning out the ham,

404
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: all those muscles in the ham were twitching, you know. Um.

405
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: And I mean we like things to be you know,

406
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 1: black or white, crisp clean, it's alive or it's dead,

407
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,200
Speaker 1: and there's nothing in between. Um. And you know there

408
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: is as far as like that animal being alive, Yes,

409
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,640
Speaker 1: that's gone, but there's all these muscle firing off and

410
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: and things like that, and blood isn't being pumped, but

411
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 1: it does flow, um, you know. And that's not stuff

412
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: that's like explained in the movies. No. And then you're

413
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: also in oftentimes in a situation where you want to say, look,

414
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: there's a myrriad ways this goes wrong. Right in terms

415
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,919
Speaker 1: of the animal. For us, we're gonna keep it tight nothing.

416
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: We don't want anything to go wrong. In terms of

417
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: us the two people. And you said in your podcast

418
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: it's it's almost always better just have two people, and

419
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 1: I agree with that one on one is almost always better.

420
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: So I assume you have two people, You're like, hey,

421
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 1: look we're gonna keep safe. We're gonna be safe. We're

422
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: not gonna do anything stupid. We're not gonna go climbing

423
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: up a hill. We shouldn't be going up. We're not

424
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: swing this muzzle around. But on the animals end this,

425
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: there's so many bad things that can happen yep um,

426
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: But you have to you have to one try to

427
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 1: address that. Be like, because I've run into new hunters

428
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: that didn't think of it, that's just been looking around

429
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: on social media and then only seeing big dead animals

430
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: and never thought of the work that goes in. But

431
00:24:57,359 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 1: then like when it when it comes to the term

432
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: real part, terminus of the whole experience, holy shit, I

433
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: shot something in the guts. Now I gotta deal with that.

434
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: So I think of all the things to address before

435
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: you go hunting, that's one thing at least to say.

436
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: It's like, look, there's a lot of ways this can't

437
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: go bad. We don't want that to happen, but it

438
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: does happen, and if it happens to you will deal

439
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: with it. But yeah, let's just let's just go out

440
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: and knowing that's that's in the car, and then that

441
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: is like you do your absolute level best to mitigate

442
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: that situation by you know, by the setup right, like

443
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: you're not again like you're taking yourself out of it

444
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: and you're focusing on what is best for that first

445
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: time hunter. And what's best I don't care what they say.

446
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: What is best is being in a spot where that

447
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: animal is going to come to you somehow someway, and

448
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: like it doesn't need to be a blind or a

449
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: tree stand, you know, like I have many many spots

450
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 1: where it's like listen, we sit here long enough, something's

451
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: gonna come out, um, and then you can control all

452
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: the other things where it's like you're gonna be set

453
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 1: up right, so it's not like popping the shoulder off

454
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: your wife. A really quick getting into a shooting position,

455
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: finding a rest, it's like, no, we've been here, hopefully

456
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: for a couple of hours. We're talking about what we're seeing,

457
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about wind direction, we're talking about how to glass,

458
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 1: and then it's like, okay, animals are starting to move.

459
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: You should probably get ready, go ahead and put around

460
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 1: in the chamber and make sure the safety is on. Um.

461
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, here they come, and you're controlling you know.

462
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: The thing that I love about hunting is that there

463
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 1: is no end to the variables. And I think an

464
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 1: absolute foundational part of getting a first time hunter set

465
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 1: up for success is controlling what variables you can. Right.

466
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: So it's like you have that rest in place, and

467
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: there's so much time and you've got to provide time,

468
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: which is the hardest part um to practice all of

469
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 1: this stuff that it doesn't have to happen in the moment,

470
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: you know, because there's just so much And that's why

471
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 1: I think that one on one, uh is so critical

472
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: because man, we just don't have the ability to retain

473
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: all of this information, especially when you put somebody in

474
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: the position of doing something for the first time, something

475
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 1: that's outside their comfort zone, something that can be stressful. Um,

476
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: so you have to be telling yourself that and again

477
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: set that up ahead of time and be like, listen,

478
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be repeating myself a lot. And it's just important.

479
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: So Phil, Uh, if you had to pick of all

480
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: the hunts that you know that we've spoken of, what,

481
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: what would you pick because you have a whole year

482
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: of any season that you want. Yeah, I know, I

483
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: don't or we can pick for you exactly. I think

484
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: that's what I would say, because I don't know. I

485
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: have zero experience with everything, So I don't know what

486
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: you guys would think. Would all like a kind of

487
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: a good balance of what difficulty it should be versus

488
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: the experience itself. Um. The environments. Turkey hunting is great.

489
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: How are you with Dan gay Fever? Yes, please elaborate. Uh,

490
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: Turkey hunt is always a good one because it's interactive.

491
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: You're moving around, but you're not unlike uh, say, Spot

492
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: and Stoff mule deer hunting. The animal is almost always

493
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 1: coming to you. So you're still moving around, you're still mobile,

494
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: you're not sitting in a tree stand all day. It's

495
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: looking for one thing. But you still no matter what,

496
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: if you're doing it right, you're in a situation where

497
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: you were calling animal to you and you get to

498
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 1: make that choice as to win and how it goes down. Um,

499
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: of course it all it goes right. It's not perfect.

500
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: But as as cowsan mitigating circumstances work, their failure could occur.

501
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: Turkey with a shotgun is you know I've missed other

502
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: people you know you miss But again, compared to a

503
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty yard show with a rifle, I feel

504
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: like it's it's a little more um that those chances

505
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: to fail are a little bit more mitigating that circumstance.

506
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: And it's it's exciting to I love it. And it

507
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: allows for some downtime during the day to work on

508
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff. And and that's the biggest failure

509
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: I see. The biggest issue is like I'm taking somebody

510
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: out to get something or I got them this. That

511
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: was my favorite thing you said that podcast so focused on.

512
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: Somebody said that, oh, it's a failure. Man, you focus, like,

513
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: there has got to be that failure time. There's got

514
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: to be that slow time or else you're not you

515
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: just do not have the amount of time too, you know,

516
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: do anything for that first time hunter that they'll be

517
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: able to replicate the next season. And if like, if

518
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: you're not getting them in a spot where they can

519
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: at least go out and try, then it's just like

520
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: you're not providing much. And I've I've got so many

521
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: bad examples, um from folks that have told me and

522
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: like told me their stories and like the most proud

523
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: look at what I did for hunting type of ways,

524
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: where I'm just like, man, I would be shocked if

525
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: that kid, that adult, that whoever even buys another hunting

526
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 1: license because you just you took, you took all that

527
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: you could have empowered them to be hunters and instead

528
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: you just had them be a trigger poller and and

529
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: that's it. So you like remove them from the situation

530
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: as as much as possible. So like the timing is critical.

531
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: The one thing that I did this year that I

532
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: absolutely have not done in the past, But this is

533
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: probably like the best thing I could recommend going forward

534
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: because think of all the emails you get and the

535
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: emails that we get into meat Eater and ask cal Um.

536
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: He's like, hey, I'm a first time hunter, Like where

537
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: do I go? How do I start? Right? So what

538
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: I did this year, um is I took my first

539
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: time hunter to places I had never been and I

540
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, like I'm learning, I'm gonna try to

541
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: relay as much information as I'm taking him. That is

542
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: why I think this spot is gonna be good or

543
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: be bad as we go through it. Um, So just

544
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: think of that, like you're not like assuming, but you're like, well,

545
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: i've never been here before. And Sam, we got super

546
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: sick of me saying like, but anything could happen. This

547
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: is what I think could happen over here. But that's

548
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: that's hunting, right if you were just if you were

549
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: to think about, well, I know that there's a bear

550
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: hanging out right here. I know there's a big elk

551
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 1: right here. We're gonna go there, we're gonna see him.

552
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: It's just if it works out so much of your

553
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: thinking the list that you could be imparting that knowledge

554
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: onto a first timer because you're like, well, this is

555
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: exactly what's gonna happen. In this spot because I've a

556
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: hunted a thousand times and by the way, you can't

557
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: come here ever ever, right, And so that was the

558
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 1: big thing, is you know, I was like, you know

559
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: what the coolest part about this, Sam is like, now

560
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: you and I have a spot. I'm I do not

561
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: turn out. Both of these spots were really good. Do

562
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: not like you do? Now you don't share it? I'm like,

563
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: you do not share this, Like this is our spot.

564
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: Like if I come here without you, I'll be calling

565
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: you and just be like, hey, just so you know

566
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: I'm going, and then I'm gonna give you kind of

567
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: the feedback on the spot when I get back, right,

568
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: and you're gonna have that knowledge. I'm like, but you

569
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: don't take anybody here without me. I love it. I'm like,

570
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: or if you do, you let me know, Like that's

571
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,479
Speaker 1: like the deal. If you have a spot now, if

572
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: you're coming at it from a mentor side, I feel

573
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: that you're gonna learn as much having to articulate the

574
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: things you normally wouldn't articulate. You're gonna learn how to understand, well,

575
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: why is that turkey goblin? When I call? What is

576
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: this call? Why is this? What? What about this cadence?

577
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: Why this? Why cluck? Now? You know? Why perr? Now?

578
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: Why yelp? Now? Why is he in that tree? Why

579
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: is he flying down that direction? Why is he using

580
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: this part of the ridge to come down? Why didn't

581
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: why when you hit the ground, did he shut up?

582
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: You know? Um, just in turkey hunting, you can answer

583
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: all those questions. Normally, you're only that dialogues in your head.

584
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: It's an interer dialogue. We're like, I think he might

585
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: the first hunt that we did. Um, never at any

586
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: point did we have ammunition in the firearm. Like, just

587
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: turns out we weren't ready for that. And you tell

588
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: that to folks who are like, well, you gotta go

589
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: someplace where they're gonna have a reasonable chance of success,

590
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: And it's like, ultimately that's important because it's less time

591
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 1: for the mentor if you kill something the first day. Right.

592
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you right now, the best thing that

593
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: could happen is you do not have that success, because

594
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 1: the more time that you can spend, the better that

595
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 1: person is going to be the following season, guaranteed. Yeah,

596
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: And for folks that work here Philly, you're included in

597
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: this because you work here um, you get we're gonna

598
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: probably film you or be making content about you. Poor Maggie.

599
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, man, Maggie and Tracy. The first

600
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,240
Speaker 1: time they've ever had to like wrestle with this stuff

601
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: was on camera, and then we made it into a

602
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 1: story for Netflix that I'm not saying it's a bad

603
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: thing to do, but it puts a lot on those

604
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: new hunters. So and I'll tell you, like, you know,

605
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,959
Speaker 1: like recapping these hunts as we did, like these people

606
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: have never hiked at all with a rifle on their shoulder,

607
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: never let alone on variable terrain where there are no trails,

608
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: like and it's just another example of taking something for granted,

609
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: Like I could damn near sleep with that shoulder with

610
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: with that rightfle on the shoulder, Like it's just like

611
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,319
Speaker 1: I throw it on, like just like my hat, you know.

612
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: And it's like, hey, this thing is a pain in

613
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: the ask to walk around with. It is so awkward,

614
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: Like I feel off balance. It's like yes, and you

615
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: look off balance, but eventually, eventually you will figure that out.

616
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: But it's a great reminder, you know. And yeah, so

617
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,759
Speaker 1: it's a great reminder that this stuff, it doesn't come

618
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: all at once. You you it's it's a small step,

619
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 1: then another small step. Every once in a while, you

620
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: have a hunting season where you figure something out that

621
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 1: is profound to make you either a better hunter or

622
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: better able to handle the ship. That happens when you're hunting.

623
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: Every once in a while you'll have one of those moments,

624
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 1: for one of those years where everything goes wrong, where

625
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 1: everything goes right and you learned something that that you

626
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: can carry on. But usually it's tiny little things that

627
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: you pick up over time, and then when someone comes

628
00:35:58,280 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: to say how do I do this? You just unlow

629
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: owed all of those small incremental learnings on them, like

630
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 1: I know everything, but really it's it's every little minute

631
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 1: of every little of every day that you spend hunting

632
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: is a building block towards towards being a mentor. So, uh,

633
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: we're gonna do it for you, Phil, We'll pick something

634
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 1: cool for you. Yeah, I'm excited. I feel like it

635
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: does because you guys keep asking me questions and I'm like,

636
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm game for anything. But also it's

637
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 1: it's it's true, I don't have any expectations. I don't

638
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: know like what kinds of I'm going to enjoy it

639
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,759
Speaker 1: or not even and how I'm gonna feel about taking

640
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: a life. I could not feel great about it, you know,

641
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: and like, uh, but I'm completely willing and excited to

642
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: try it. So um, some people come into it the attitude. Well,

643
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: some people come into it like I've read thirty books,

644
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: I've listened to all the podcasts. I'm ready to go.

645
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: Other people are I really just want to do this?

646
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: Can you take me? I don't have the time. I'll

647
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: do the podcasting and the reading after I've done this

648
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: once and realize I really want to do it again.

649
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: Other people have already dive dived into the idea prior

650
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: to the action. And so it's it's willingness being the

651
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: only requirement. Yeah, in my book, Oh absolutely man. And

652
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 1: all you gotta do is be able to appreciate being

653
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: outside like you got that. It's impact. Hunting will show

654
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: you how to like really appreciate that stuff because it

655
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: just adds some different meaning to it. And and and

656
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: I'll go to bad on that statement, that completely unprovable

657
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: point I just made. Yeah, we're we're a kind of

658
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,560
Speaker 1: proof of it. You know, it's empowering than to know

659
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: things and then have your choices matter in the outdoors.

660
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: If you go left on the trail, right on the

661
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: trail gives a ship, you might take a little bit longer.

662
00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: But when you're at hunting, every choice matters depending on

663
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: what your outcome. If your if your goal is to

664
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: get some and and eat it, every choice matters, and

665
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 1: so um, if you're just riding a bike, those choices

666
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: just lead to a little bit longer of a trip.

667
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: Maybe yeah. But in the case of going outside and

668
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: making choice, is hunting is the way to experience reality.

669
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 1: I was laughing too, because, Um, I was getting my

670
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: land navigation skills. H questioned several times, Um, and I've

671
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: been lost a lot that. Um, yeah, that's valuable time

672
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: in the woods man. It's also like, well how do

673
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 1: you know about It's like, well, I spent a lot

674
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: of time failing a lot of times taking the wrong direction.

675
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,319
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. You developed principles and philosophies like like I'm

676
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: not gonna go downhill unless I absolutely have to, because

677
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: you know what, and these mountains that it doesn't make

678
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: any sense. I was talking to some search and rescue

679
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 1: guys and they're like, little kids always go uphill. O,

680
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:53,480
Speaker 1: my little kids, So maybe you do all this time

681
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: in the woods and then you're, uh, it's just to

682
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: get back in touch with your Memmalian brand. You're like,

683
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: get up high, I can see you from there. Smoke

684
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 1: signals all right, Phil, Well, I'm excited for your journey.

685
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 1: Me too. Oh absolutely, man, absolutely fun. Yeah, and we

686
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,520
Speaker 1: will document every last bit of it. My friend can't wait.

687
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,760
Speaker 1: I know you you're excited. We're really going to change

688
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: that home recipe situation too, Like you're gonna be busting

689
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: out all sorts of stuff. Yeah, uh, probably stock. You're

690
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 1: gonna be making stock, man, My wife's making stock, like stop,

691
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: just like chicken and turkey stuff. But the house always

692
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: smells incredible, thoughts, great stock is like the best smell

693
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: you should do. Stock candles, What don we come out

694
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 1: meat eater candles just like bone stock. My buddies were

695
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: making on the for the Cow's Weeken Review product line.

696
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: They're like, you're gonna get sponsored by Yankee Candle Cow's.

697
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: We can review Cow's, we can review candle smells smells

698
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: like desperate another week to turn in that show. We

699
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 1: got to get it out there. Well I did, I

700
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: really we had talked about we have to our Ceruti

701
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 1: on awesome, great consa writer, great writer, great conservationists. Um.

702
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: We tend to talk about his book Mindful Carnivore most

703
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: of all, but we went way past that in in

704
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: the in this conversation it was a great one. UM

705
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,680
Speaker 1: specifically a point that There's a couple of points that

706
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: came up that were important for me. One of them was,

707
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: I feel like that I I am maybe the living

708
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: embodiment of having two hunters and having been two types

709
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: of hunters in my life, and you're probably you might

710
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 1: be this way through Cal. Early on in my life,

711
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: I was the what I would call a normal hunter.

712
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: I hunted because my dad did. I fell in love

713
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: lit because my dad showed it to me. We didn't

714
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: think too much about it. It was go out, shoot

715
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 1: a deer, whatever was legal, go back home, skin it out,

716
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 1: take the backsteps out, fry him up, and ed him

717
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: at Camburg. Out of the rest. It wasn't really We

718
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: didn't think about conservation. We didn't think about life and

719
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: death too much. We didn't think about all these other

720
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: entanglements that are part of this show. In your show,

721
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 1: Cal and all this stuff we do with meet either.

722
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: So I for the first maybe I would say ten years,

723
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: twelve years of my hunting life, it was just kind

724
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 1: of a pastime. It's a sport, it's the thing we did.

725
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: And later on in my life, as I traveled around

726
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: met people like you and Steve and started to think

727
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: about other ways to do it, I became more of

728
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: like an adult onset discoverer of these things, you know, conservation,

729
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: the principles of our North American model of wild like conservation,

730
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 1: all these things that I just didn't even know for

731
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: the first fifteen years of my hunting life. And so

732
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: that's something that we talked about with Tovart that I

733
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 1: found to be something I think a lot of folks

734
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: that have lived let listen our stuff, that lived their

735
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: life hunting may think too like I. I became a

736
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,959
Speaker 1: better hunter later in life, but I'm glad the first

737
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: fifteen years happened because I got to just be a

738
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: kid and appreciate how fun it is and how cool

739
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: it is to be out there with your family doing

740
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:17,839
Speaker 1: really fun stuff that has some benefit. But then later

741
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: in life I started thinking about it, probably too much.

742
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 1: But I'm glad that both those things happen because I

743
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: got to kind of appreciate both things. Oh yeah, man,

744
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: Oh that's something that I think somebody like Phil that

745
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: goes like, you're never gonna get to just be a

746
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: fifteen year old kid doing it. But there's a lot

747
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: that you can you bring to the table as an

748
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: adult on set hunter or whatever we call them. Your

749
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 1: your ability to just go out and shoot a brick

750
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 1: a twenty two mma and kill a thousand gophers in

751
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,919
Speaker 1: a day and not think anything of it. That you'll

752
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,200
Speaker 1: never experience that my friend. Sorry, Phil, I can't do

753
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: it anymore. God, but it's it's that you'll hear it

754
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: what we talked to so are, But that concept goes

755
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: off in a bunch of different weird ways. You know

756
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: that that exact thing when your kid you can shoot

757
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of Robbins. In fact, uh, somebody who works

758
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: here as kid got drilled with a b begun recently.

759
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,240
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna put anybody's names out there, Steve, uh,

760
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: but that like, when you have that as a kid,

761
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 1: that's a pretty precious time you come to figure out

762
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: later in life because then you gotta wrestle with all

763
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: the moralities and ideologies and ship that we talk about

764
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: on the show. So that was something pretty profound for

765
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: me to think about those two versions of myself and

766
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: kind of when I started to become the second version,

767
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,720
Speaker 1: which I am now, Um, when that maturity and adult

768
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: kind of the responsibility took hold and I started to

769
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: try to be better and think about it in a

770
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: better way. So, um, something that hopefully you guys will

771
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 1: get from that conversation. I enjoyed it. But before we

772
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: get there, Phil, we only got we only got. Uh.

773
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 1: We're only doing nonzo sharp moments to the end of

774
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: the year, folks. Man, I'm gonna miss it. I'll miss

775
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: it too. We might bring it back next year, we

776
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 1: don't know, we don't know, but we're only gonna do

777
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 1: them till the end of the year. And so we

778
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: only have a three left three lefts. So right in

779
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: now at THHD at the meetia dot com if you

780
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 1: want to win a work sharp field sharpener, many many,

781
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: many of you have. We haven't picked our last couple

782
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 1: yet and so you still have a chance to win.

783
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 1: So if you haven't written in the THHC to mediator

784
00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: dot com, please do with your not so sharp moment

785
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: to to remind you it's something dumb you've done outdoors.

786
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: That is it. And the better you're writing, the better

787
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: your pros, the better your chance of getting on right.

788
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: Phil said it. Yeah, they've done some really good storytellers,

789
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 1: really good. Not too pres but not too short, just

790
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: the right length, just the right length. Okay, get the

791
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 1: point to the point al right, play the jingle fill

792
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 1: not the sharp moment you don't have, won't you marry me?

793
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 1: All right? Bye, cal bye, thank you, get back to work.

794
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,760
Speaker 1: Trevork Carter is this week's winter. He's got a story

795
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: for us, he said, Hey, y'all, I was a pretty

796
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 1: keen duck hunter back in college, gap years, changing majors,

797
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 1: switching universities, man, I had a lot of time on

798
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,240
Speaker 1: the water. Around about my third junior year, I found

799
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: a piece of marsh while out cat fishing that looked

800
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,479
Speaker 1: like it would hold some ducks come winter. Winter came

801
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: as much as it ever did in South Carolina, and

802
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 1: the weather man promised a midweek cold front. Thinking that

803
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,280
Speaker 1: everything else would be working, we decided to skip class

804
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 1: and drive out to the lake. We left early or late,

805
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: depending on what's in your drinking cup, arriving at three

806
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: am to the mud strip, landing my mercury had quit

807
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: again like a hound, especially coming up limp every time.

808
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: It was cold out, so we were going to have

809
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: to tax slowly across the open water with a borrowed

810
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,439
Speaker 1: trolling motor. Anybody who's been a young dude in college

811
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: and not had a crappy trolling motor on their boat

812
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: doesn't know life. Some I'm with you, Trevor. It was cold, rainy,

813
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,720
Speaker 1: and the battery died a hundred yards into the trip.

814
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 1: We brought oars, but not the knowledge of how to

815
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,359
Speaker 1: use them. The old squared fronted john boat was much

816
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: too wide for one man to row, and we cut

817
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: a few circles that that freighted our tempers before we

818
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 1: straightened it out. And I cut a few circles phill.

819
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: He just means they rowed around in a circle. Got it.

820
00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: With an hour left before sunrise, we arrived at a

821
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: likely looking spot and called it good. We tossed out

822
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 1: a few dozen decoys, our excitement bulldozing past practicality and

823
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: good sense, using up the last scraps of energy we

824
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:54,959
Speaker 1: had from our only hour of sleep and a pot

825
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: of coffee. We waited ten minutes before shooting light The

826
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 1: wood ducks started fly hanging, whistling, wings had a scrambling

827
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 1: load guns and stair holes through our wash dials. Despite

828
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: the barrage sounding from the marsh around us, we waited

829
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 1: until finally the croc, the croc. The clock struck legal nothing.

830
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: Empty skies grew hazy and reddening eyes. As another enthusiastic

831
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 1: sunrise brought disappointment. Time passed and an awareness passed over

832
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 1: the boat. We all looked southeast to see alone duck

833
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 1: flying in. It was a big duck, a general term

834
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,400
Speaker 1: used for anything that wasn't a wood duck or hooded merganzer,

835
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: and we all knew it. My calls hung forgotten around

836
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: my neck. As the bird flew in on a string.

837
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 1: I had to squint hard through the sleep and morning sun,

838
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: but I tracked the iridescent green head as it approached,

839
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: slow and fast. As soon as it broke the perimeter

840
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: of our decoys, feet inches from the water, I raised

841
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: and pulled the trigger. My pellets tore through the water

842
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,399
Speaker 1: all around him, but he didn't go down. My next

843
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 1: shot followed on his heels of the first, but I'm

844
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: clearly behind. The third round cracked hard against my shoulder.

845
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 1: A three and a half inch surprise for my early

846
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: morning shell grab. But the duck doesn't go down. I

847
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 1: tried to reload, but he was gone. I realized, as

848
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 1: I struggled to stuff a shell backwards into my shotgun

849
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: that I was the only one to shoot. What a realization, Philip.

850
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: I turned ready to put my friends to the question,

851
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 1: but stopped short at the expressions on their faces. They

852
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: looked at me like I had cancer to spare written

853
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: plainly in their eyes. It did not last. Pain turned

854
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 1: quickly to mirth as the inquisition began. What were you

855
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: shooting at? It was just one mallard there flew in right?

856
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: Why are you shooting so low? There was no denying,

857
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 1: even though I tried. Somehow, through the fog of exhaustion,

858
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 1: I managed to shoot a tube full of twelve gauge

859
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: deal at the reflection of a duck in the water

860
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: as it flew. Overead my shots so well executed. To

861
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: my eyes, We're about forty yards low. Not the kind

862
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: of shooting that's easy to live down. At least I

863
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: had the windage right. If I have a more embarrassing story,

864
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: I'd probably have repressed it. Thanks for reading, Trevor Carter

865
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: well done, Phil play the jingle not so sharp, mom,

866
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: you don't have that's pretty good man, Yeah, I like it.

867
00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: I wonder I mean, how much light was there this

868
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: was happening. I was full full daybreak yep. Um, So

869
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: there's no sting at the water. Just imagine. I'm sure

870
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: there's ripped ripples everywhere, Like was he I've never been

871
00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: in his shoes before. Is this something that it could

872
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: happen to something? It's hard to say. Okay, it depends

873
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: on the angle the duck was flying. But boy, that

874
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: would be a hard one to pull off, all right,

875
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: because you're you're normally your eyes are trained on the duck,

876
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 1: and like there's a moment when it's time to shoot.

877
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 1: That's the excitement of duck hunting. Duck is flying in,

878
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,600
Speaker 1: you're waiting, you're waiting, you're ready, and he cups his wings.

879
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: He's clearly committed to coming into your spread. And then

880
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: you pick him home when you say shoot. And so

881
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 1: there's normally never a confusion such as this. But good job, Trevor.

882
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: Why it's not so sharp? It's not so sharp, and

883
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: you're gonna win a work sharp field sharpener. We'll send

884
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: it right to your house. It would be super great.

885
00:50:35,880 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 1: So next time that you're wasting steel shot after a mirage.

886
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: It's almost like he was in the desert and saw,

887
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: oh my god, an ice cream truck. Very similar. All right, well,

888
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: we're gonna get to Mr Tovar s rually well, travel

889
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: all the way to Princeton University the Princeton Library to

890
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 1: talk to Tovar a couple of weeks back. It was

891
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: a great converse station, and I hope you enjoy I

892
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 1: guess I grew up on in all the road so far.

893
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: How are you doing? Um? Wow, how are you? Oh man,

894
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: I can't complain. We're We're in the Princeton Library. I

895
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: feel smarter, just be just to be hanging out of here,

896
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 1: right right in town, right in town, Yeah right, anytime

897
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: in a kind of a weird place. Um, but I

898
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: guess an apt place to have a conversation such as

899
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: as we're about to have. And it seems like there's

900
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: a lot of very very smart, affluent people walking around here,

901
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 1: maybe some vegans. I bet there is no doubt, no doubt. Um,

902
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: can you quickly normally try to start this by um

903
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,439
Speaker 1: describing our surroundings? These are these aren't very exciting things.

904
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 1: So can you give people a quick run through, um,

905
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: of of who you are and where you're from. We'll

906
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: save your your book and some of your other work

907
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 1: for later on, but just like your general background, where

908
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: you're from. Yeah, um, so, I grew up in New

909
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: England and in New Hampshire, Vermont and UH live for

910
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 1: a while in New York City, um in and around

911
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 1: my my college years. UM And I've done a variety

912
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: of things throughout my life on the workfront, carpentry, forestry, freelance, writing, consulting,

913
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 1: a whole a whole bunch of a bunch of things.

914
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 1: But have really you gravitated toward uh work around conservation

915
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 1: and different communities you know, environmental community, hunting community, and

916
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: other other communities and their perspectives on our relationships with

917
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: with nature and do the values and perceptions that we

918
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: bring bring to that. I think one of the when

919
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 1: when we sit down for these conversations off and I

920
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: think one of the things that I want to make

921
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,439
Speaker 1: sure we always cover is when was that moment where

922
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: you remember first thinking well, I have some connection to nature,

923
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,560
Speaker 1: I have some interest in You know, some folks when

924
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 1: they were a kid and they were looking at bullfrogs

925
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: and wondered what how this all worked? Um, some folks

926
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: way later life. For you, what was it? What was

927
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: there a moment that you can remember where you thought this,

928
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: It's kind of who I am and what I want

929
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:10,799
Speaker 1: to do. I spent so much time out doors as

930
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 1: a kid that I don't really remember a time when

931
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 1: I wasn't sort of immersed in it. You know, I

932
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: was swimming, you know, not long after I was walking,

933
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,399
Speaker 1: and you know, catching bull frogs and tadpoles not long

934
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: after that, and and learning to fish when I was

935
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: pretty young. Uh so, No, I've so always immersed in that.

936
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: As I got older, I started to think more about

937
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 1: you know, different perspectives and different backgrounds and cultures and

938
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,640
Speaker 1: and all that sort of human dimensions of it. But

939
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: the you know, the connection with the natural world, you know,

940
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: from you know, picking blueberries to catching trout is you

941
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: know pretty ingrained and how I was from when I

942
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: was pretty little. Were your who who in your life

943
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,040
Speaker 1: kind of helped push that forwards? Your parents or were

944
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 1: there other other folks in your life. My parents were

945
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: certainly certainly supportive of of all that and being outdoors

946
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,879
Speaker 1: and everything. Um, you know, my dad, for instance, wasn't

947
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: particularly into fishing, but he had a good friend who

948
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: had actually grown up in the Bronx and ended up

949
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: getting really you know, connected the outdoors, and so he

950
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 1: became my fishing mentor when I was a kid. But yeah,

951
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 1: I would say, you know, a lot of people were supportive,

952
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: but on the on the fishing front in particular, my

953
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: friend Willie was was a big, big factor. People who

954
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:32,799
Speaker 1: listen to this podcas No, I had a Willie. My

955
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: Willie's name was Bill Miller. Well we also called him Willie.

956
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 1: It just it seems to me like there's a lot

957
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 1: of people in our lives, whether for most of us

958
00:54:41,040 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: as our parents. Of course it was my dad, but

959
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: if if that wasn't the case, then imagine a good

960
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: parent finds some other outlets, some other person to kind

961
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 1: of get you down the path you want to go. Yeah, exactly. Um,

962
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: do you as you're you know, we're going to talk

963
00:54:55,440 --> 00:55:00,239
Speaker 1: about your your switch from vegan to hunter and in

964
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: your book The Mindful Carnivore, But do you remember what

965
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 1: what point in your life do you remember thinking about

966
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 1: your consumption and wondering about death and wondering about that

967
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: a little wonderful cycle that we now know to be

968
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 1: so complicated. Um. I think as a kid, I just

969
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:23,800
Speaker 1: didn't question it. You know, wherever food came from, I

970
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:27,440
Speaker 1: ate it. Um. Sometimes I was involved in it, you know,

971
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 1: I was catching fish or picking berries or whatever else. Uh.

972
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: And it wasn't until like my late teens, maybe when

973
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: I was twenty, that I started to question it a

974
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: bit and think about it and wonder about whether it

975
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 1: was the health of the healthfulness of that food, or

976
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: the ethics of that food, or the environmental footprint of

977
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: that food. So the time in our lives when a

978
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: lot of us started to question who are we? What

979
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 1: are we doing here? What does this all mean? This

980
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 1: is the time filled with anks exactly all the emotions

981
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 1: as you move through all this, I think we will

982
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: get to your your switch to being a hunter. When

983
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: does it? When does the introduction of veganism come? And

984
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: when's the first time you saw that and thought, well,

985
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: that looks that's pretty interesting. I might try. Yeah, I

986
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: mean it was. It was a bit gradual in that

987
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: I started to you know, wandering, you know, gee, how

988
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: much of this kind of food? You know, how much

989
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 1: meat is healthy for me? Just think about diet a

990
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 1: little bit. I knew folks. I knew vegetarians late in

991
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 1: high school. Um ah, my my girlfriend was vegetarian and

992
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: her family vegetarian. So I was introduced vegetarian food and

993
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 1: I was totally open to it. Um. And I think

994
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:57,560
Speaker 1: the real, the real pivot. I'd been ah away from

995
00:56:57,760 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 1: fishing for a while. I've been living in the city

996
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: and why not. And I went fishing and I hadn't

997
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 1: killed my own food in a while. And I caught

998
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 1: a trout and reeled it in, and you know, as

999
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: I killed it, there was just a moment of hesitation

1000
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: and doubt, like m hmm. I didn't need to do that,

1001
00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: Like I didn't need to eat that fish. I could

1002
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: have eaten something else, you know, I could have had

1003
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 1: rice and veggies or whatever. Um. And So I had been,

1004
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, thinking about my values and my path and

1005
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 1: had actually done a little retreat uh in uh in

1006
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: New York State with the Buddhist teacher not Han, talking

1007
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:51,040
Speaker 1: about compassion and you know he's in't they encouraged vegetarianism

1008
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: And there's nothing that point you towards vegetarians and like Buddha, right,

1009
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: So I just you know, thought about all that, and

1010
00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: so that moment of killing that fish was sort of

1011
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: a turning point for me where I started for a while,

1012
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,919
Speaker 1: I was vegetarian, so I'll try this. You don't need

1013
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: to kill other other sentient beings too to live. And

1014
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: then from that moment, you know, the other sorts. I

1015
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: became interested in vegetarian philosophy, vegan philosophy, and realized that

1016
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: the dairy industry has huge impacts on animals and the

1017
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 1: egg industry. So I just started moving further and further

1018
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: away from all of those you know, animal foods. And

1019
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: what year was this, so this would have been like

1020
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,320
Speaker 1: I was twenty, so like ninety one. Okay, it's quite

1021
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: a while ago. I mean, I think I think that's

1022
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:51,680
Speaker 1: that's a good point to stop and say, like, when

1023
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 1: you're in the vegan in that world, in that mindset,

1024
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 1: and you're and you're looking at the impact of your consumption,

1025
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: did did you develop your own community with other vegans?

1026
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: Did you? How did you? And obviously you weren't logging

1027
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:10,120
Speaker 1: onto some chat room, going on social media and sharing

1028
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: claiming to the world your veganism, so it was probably

1029
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: a more personal thing at that point. We have in

1030
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: this in this more modern nine nineteen world, we are

1031
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: very likely doing it so we can share it on

1032
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: It's going to be shared on Instagram or some social

1033
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: media is part of your life. But at that point,

1034
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: you just didn't have that. No, you didn't have access

1035
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 1: to sort of the digital echo chambers today, right whatever

1036
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: perspectives exactly. Uh So, Yeah, I mean I knew plenty

1037
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 1: of people who weren't vegetarian or vegan, but I also

1038
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: new folks who were. I spent my last couple years

1039
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:46,880
Speaker 1: of college and you know, right in New York City

1040
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: and both among classmates and O there's new plenty people

1041
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 1: who were vegan vegetarian, and all of my you know,

1042
00:59:54,240 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 1: the ethics, the environmental questions, the health issues, you know,

1043
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: all of the logics that I was bringing to it

1044
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: at that time all pointed me in you know, staying

1045
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: on that path for that period of time. Yeah, And

1046
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,560
Speaker 1: I've been I have been diving into veganism like you

1047
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:15,480
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe. I'm interested in not only like it's ideologies

1048
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,760
Speaker 1: and how it's constructed, but also how it's growing. I

1049
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 1: was looking at some surveys and I had in my mind,

1050
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,919
Speaker 1: we know that hunting is declining, right, We've talked about

1051
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:27,120
Speaker 1: that on this show, and probably in every corner of

1052
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 1: the hunting world recently, we know that it's declining. So

1053
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: I started looking is vegan? Is the vegan lifestyle, the

1054
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 1: vegan diet folks that are practitioners of this is that

1055
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: growing while hunting is declining. So we can kind of

1056
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: lay bare what we're dealing with here in terms of

1057
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 1: these two types of not only diets, but this has

1058
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: become a lifestyle. It's become a way of thinking. But

1059
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: I think on both sides, and I'll say that I

1060
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 1: have what we already know US Fishing and Wildlife Service.

1061
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:54,360
Speaker 1: When I was looking up about four and a half

1062
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: percent of Americans um actually hunt and that's doubt right now,

1063
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: and that's down. That was twenty seven a teen and

1064
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:04,919
Speaker 1: that's down from seven point so that's about three trop

1065
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: over all that time, which was when you started thinking

1066
01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 1: about vegans. Coincidentally, and then I was looking at, okay,

1067
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:14,479
Speaker 1: where was the vegan thing? I looked at a couple

1068
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: of data points from this group called Global Data. They

1069
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: said from seventeen, which is only a three or three

1070
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 1: year span. Um U S consumers identifying as vegan group

1071
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: from one percent to six percent um in that time.

1072
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: That's a increase over that number. So if you were

1073
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,320
Speaker 1: to just pull those apart, your five four and a

1074
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,919
Speaker 1: half or so four point four percent of Americans hunt

1075
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:40,840
Speaker 1: around six percent of Americans are vegan, and the line graph,

1076
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:44,120
Speaker 1: you're going in opposite directions for those two things. So

1077
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 1: I think as we look at as we look at

1078
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: this conversation and talk about it, it's it's interesting to

1079
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: see what the dynamic there. Yeah, I mean there's a

1080
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: lot of interesting tangents off that. I mean, one is

1081
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 1: that vegetarianism in America is actually pretty old. Not so

1082
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 1: much veganism, but vegetarianism in America has you know, been

1083
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: here in various concentrations and forms since the eighteen hundreds

1084
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: and has religious roots in large part. But there was actually,

1085
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, you and I were right before we started

1086
01:02:16,760 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: talking about um, you know, vegan athletes and so on,

1087
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: back when Teddy Roosevelt was you know, ironically, when Teddy

1088
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: Roosevelt was you know, this very prominent figure in conservation

1089
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 1: and the culture, vegetarianism was pretty strong too. And um

1090
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: and and it's connections to you know, physical exercise and

1091
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: and all. So today, Yeah, they're there are these sort

1092
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: of trends, and I think that they aren't necessarily at

1093
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:55,959
Speaker 1: least in my experience and the conversations I've had people

1094
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:59,160
Speaker 1: over the years, they aren't as diametrically opposed as they

1095
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: necessarily here on the surface. UM. And there are some

1096
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:05,520
Speaker 1: common threads and values that run through parts of the

1097
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: vegan community, in parts of the hunting community, UM that

1098
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: I think are hopeful. We've addressed those a lot of

1099
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: those here and will continue to do because I think

1100
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: the most compelling thing about this is because these things

1101
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 1: seem diametrically opposed, but they're not really. There's there's some

1102
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: some some places where we diverge, right, there's some ideas

1103
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: where we just can't get together. But in general, like

1104
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 1: we value animals, we want to make sure uh their

1105
01:03:34,880 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: robust populations and all kinds of habitat, Like we have

1106
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:41,520
Speaker 1: a we share a value system. We just disagree on

1107
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 1: how to get to where we want to go. UM.

1108
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: But I think are in North America, especially in the US,

1109
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: that's one of the most unique things we have going

1110
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 1: for us. We all value the animals in the same way,

1111
01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: and we've done it we've applied those same values to

1112
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: like non native species like the pheasant and native species

1113
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:01,240
Speaker 1: and other native spec he's like the pronghorn, white tailed

1114
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: deer and things like that. So we're not unlike other

1115
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 1: countries shunning the non natives and building up just the

1116
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: native species like for example New Zealand. That's what they

1117
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:14,560
Speaker 1: that's what they're want a mission to do right now.

1118
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: So there's there's just a lot of things, but we

1119
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 1: share a value system we just don't um and my

1120
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 1: conversations with with vegans and other folks that practice that

1121
01:04:22,760 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: we just don't. It's the death and life thing that

1122
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: we just can't get around, you know, we just can't

1123
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 1: get together on. Then how did you I mean, obviously

1124
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 1: you were saying when you were a vegan, you were

1125
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:37,720
Speaker 1: thinking about how am I participating the death of these

1126
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 1: of these sentient beings as as is the popular term.

1127
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:42,880
Speaker 1: You know, where was you? Where was your mind? Then?

1128
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 1: I mean, do you feel like you were a better

1129
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: participant in consumption in society when you were a vegan? Um? Hmm,

1130
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 1: I don't think I was better. I mean I was

1131
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:05,720
Speaker 1: I was committed to causing the least possible harm as

1132
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: I understood it, um and the least the least possible

1133
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 1: suffering because I understood and those are noble goals, right

1134
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 1: to cause minimal, minimal harm, minimal suffering. And as I

1135
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: understood the world and my role in it, that was

1136
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: what made sense, was to just refrain from eating those

1137
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 1: foods that act in itself. And also you know there's

1138
01:05:29,200 --> 01:05:36,919
Speaker 1: the environmental dimensions that I felt were important reasons also

1139
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: to you know, just stick to a vegan diet. Um.

1140
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: So I was, I was sincere, and the values and

1141
01:05:45,480 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 1: motives behind it were good. Um, and my perspective shifted, right, Yeah,

1142
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 1: talk about that shift. I mean we I think that's

1143
01:05:55,200 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 1: something that obviously can be an example for a lot

1144
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 1: of people. I mean there's we we often here people

1145
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 1: that go on vegan diets for for ethical reasons. I

1146
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 1: think like six out of ten of vegans say that

1147
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:11,760
Speaker 1: they're doing they're living this lifestyle, eating this die for

1148
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 1: ethical reasons like that. And so it's it's often that

1149
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:18,479
Speaker 1: people will say that, but then they run into health

1150
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:21,320
Speaker 1: issues like to run into low bet twelve, low iron,

1151
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:22,760
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of things like that, joint

1152
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:28,760
Speaker 1: issues on and on. Um, what was it for you? Um?

1153
01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 1: The first step was that I realized that eating agricultural

1154
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: crops also had substantial impacts on all kinds of beings,

1155
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: you know, from you know, clearing, ah, whatever the previous

1156
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:52,960
Speaker 1: habitat was to create a crop field, whether that's prairie

1157
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 1: or forest or whatever. You just just wiped out a

1158
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: whole habitat to create whether it's a monoculture or not.

1159
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 1: You just totally change that habitat uh and displaced a

1160
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 1: lot of critters and and probably wiped out a bunch

1161
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: in the process. And then you know, past control so called,

1162
01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: whether it's deer or other other animals, um let, let alone,

1163
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 1: pesticides and so forth. I started to read there's a

1164
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: great book that you may be familiar with um called

1165
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:28,640
Speaker 1: Heart and Blood by Richard Nelson, which I read and

1166
01:07:28,680 --> 01:07:30,840
Speaker 1: I was still vegan. I read this and I was

1167
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:34,800
Speaker 1: a fantastic book, amazing book about deer and our relationships

1168
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,960
Speaker 1: with deer. And one of the things he documents is

1169
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,800
Speaker 1: that deer being killed in every corner of the continent

1170
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 1: to protect every crop we grow practically. And I found

1171
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 1: that a little uncomfortable right as a vegan, And but

1172
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: I still had this notion that was like well, okay,

1173
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:51,440
Speaker 1: if you're out in the Midwest and you get these

1174
01:07:51,480 --> 01:07:54,520
Speaker 1: massive soybean fields, okay, they're doing They're killing lots of deer.

1175
01:07:56,040 --> 01:07:58,080
Speaker 1: And it was when I realized that, you know, three

1176
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:03,160
Speaker 1: miles down the road, the little local organic farm growing

1177
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: strawberries and salad greens whatever, they were occasionally shooting deer

1178
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 1: and constantly smoked, bombing woodchuck burrows and stuff also, And

1179
01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 1: that brought it home like, Okay, there's a lot of

1180
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:20,800
Speaker 1: gray here. So I was still I was still vegan, right,

1181
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:25,840
Speaker 1: But what those kinds of realization started to do was

1182
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:30,439
Speaker 1: to take those very sharp delineations I had drawn, like

1183
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:34,679
Speaker 1: sharp black and white, hard edges of you know, plant good,

1184
01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 1: animal bad. In terms of food ethics, you know, it's like, okay,

1185
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 1: if this farmer who's growing the salad greens and strawberries

1186
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: that we're eating is having to kill deer to protect

1187
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:50,519
Speaker 1: those crops, and then he and the guy who shot

1188
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 1: the deer are splitting the venison. You know, like that

1189
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,840
Speaker 1: venison and those strawberries are part of the same food system, right,

1190
01:08:56,840 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 1: there's no separation. Um. It's that was the first step

1191
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 1: for me. It was just softening those hard ethical lines

1192
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: I had drawn. And then to three years later, um,

1193
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: when some health issues started crop up for me. I've

1194
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:16,360
Speaker 1: been vegan for close to a decade. I wasn't severely ill,

1195
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: but my immune system was not doing great. And uh,

1196
01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:26,960
Speaker 1: my my doctor, who is a Buddhist natural path not

1197
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 1: someone who is gonna like, you know, tout the all

1198
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 1: American diet, you know, but she had some blood work

1199
01:09:36,360 --> 01:09:40,080
Speaker 1: done and and talk to me about my about my

1200
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: blood chemistry and someone's going on with my health, and said,

1201
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,400
Speaker 1: you know, you might want to think about, you know,

1202
01:09:45,439 --> 01:09:48,760
Speaker 1: adding some some other food some some animal foods into

1203
01:09:48,800 --> 01:09:52,320
Speaker 1: your diet. So my wife and I my wife was

1204
01:09:52,400 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 1: vegetarian also and had been vegan. Uh, she sort of

1205
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,280
Speaker 1: came along for the ride on vegans and with me. Um,

1206
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 1: she and I said, well, okay, we better do something

1207
01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: little different here. And so we you know, first tried

1208
01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:09,400
Speaker 1: like having a little yogurt, you know, and having yogurt

1209
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: like almost ten years of vegans, like it's a radical movie,

1210
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:17,439
Speaker 1: like hey, look at this bacteria, But I mean psychologically, yeah,

1211
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 1: it's you know, So some yogurt, some eggs, some wild fish.

1212
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 1: I started to experiment with that, and my body really responded, well, um,

1213
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 1: And and then I started to think about, Okay, what

1214
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,600
Speaker 1: about participating directly again like I did when I was

1215
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: a kid and I was fishing, And so I started

1216
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:43,160
Speaker 1: to pick up. I decide I'm gonna pick up fishing

1217
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,320
Speaker 1: again if I'm gonna be eating other creatures and dealing

1218
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: with the fact that I'm a living, breathing animal who

1219
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,439
Speaker 1: also eats and has a footprint, whether that's in terms

1220
01:10:55,439 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 1: of agricultural crop land or the death of a particular creature.

1221
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:03,120
Speaker 1: You're I have a footprint. I can't pretend I don't

1222
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:07,520
Speaker 1: have any footprint here, you know, minimize it, make it sustainable,

1223
01:11:07,680 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 1: minimize suffering. Yes, great, And you know I'm not invisible.

1224
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 1: I'm not like ethereal right, I have a body I eat. Um.

1225
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 1: So I started fish again, and and I never I

1226
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 1: didn't grow up hunting, but I started to just think

1227
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 1: about the possibility of of of getting engaged there. Yeah,

1228
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:32,760
Speaker 1: did you like? That's you're very you know, you're very

1229
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,400
Speaker 1: far from that when you're thinking of like an ethical

1230
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:37,680
Speaker 1: vegan mindset, You're very far from you know, what I'll

1231
01:11:37,720 --> 01:11:40,639
Speaker 1: just do. I'll just kill something because that's better than

1232
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,640
Speaker 1: what than what I've constructed here, which is something that

1233
01:11:44,680 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: I've heard multiple times on this podcast for folks that

1234
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 1: had been vegan and turn hunting, like they just they

1235
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 1: realize the gray area that you just discussed there, They

1236
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 1: realized that they're that gray area is full of not

1237
01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 1: only large ca agriculture kills animals, but also large scale

1238
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 1: agriculture destroying is destroying this planet as much. I've talked

1239
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:10,320
Speaker 1: to some folks recently in the regenerative agricultural world that

1240
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:13,960
Speaker 1: believe that that large scale plant agriculture is more harmful

1241
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:17,640
Speaker 1: than large scale animal agriculture in some ways. And so

1242
01:12:17,680 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 1: then that gray area becomes this, It becomes full of

1243
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,519
Speaker 1: these contradictions and conundrums and things you have to then

1244
01:12:24,680 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: go figure out. So as that's not uncommon um to

1245
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:33,560
Speaker 1: where you're headed, but um it normally heads goes to

1246
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 1: hunting once you've kind of come out of that decision

1247
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 1: making process, like, Hey, I can't trick, I can't fool

1248
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:42,760
Speaker 1: myself anymore. What do I do now? Hunting seems to

1249
01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:46,160
Speaker 1: be a natural, you know, spasm like a spasmatic way

1250
01:12:46,160 --> 01:12:47,960
Speaker 1: to be like, I gotta go back and do this

1251
01:12:48,040 --> 01:12:50,519
Speaker 1: the right way and see if this meant this feels

1252
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:54,080
Speaker 1: better once you started hunting. Um, I'm assuming you did

1253
01:12:54,120 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 1: just kill a deer on your first your scale? Right now?

1254
01:12:59,520 --> 01:13:02,680
Speaker 1: How long long? How long do you're comfortable that you

1255
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 1: could go in the woods, Like did you just have

1256
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:08,000
Speaker 1: a mentor what when was it that you felt like

1257
01:13:08,040 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 1: I can step in the woods and sit in a

1258
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 1: tree and hunted deer? Right? Because I know dear was

1259
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:14,360
Speaker 1: the first thing you kill. I mean, well I actually

1260
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 1: game first. Um. Well, A couple of thoughts. One is

1261
01:13:22,040 --> 01:13:25,320
Speaker 1: that I think one of the reasons does a natural

1262
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 1: or a common move for some folks towards hunting, is

1263
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:35,719
Speaker 1: that one of the values that underpins ethical vegetarianism erathical

1264
01:13:35,800 --> 01:13:41,640
Speaker 1: veganism um is I think a desire and a commitment

1265
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:49,639
Speaker 1: to recognizing what is happening, recognizing where your food comes from,

1266
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 1: recognizing that, you know, some eggs come out of some

1267
01:13:52,720 --> 01:13:55,479
Speaker 1: pretty horrific factories, you know settings, and you know chickens

1268
01:13:55,479 --> 01:13:59,759
Speaker 1: are treated horribly same thing with you know, some production

1269
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 1: of eef and fork and so on. And one of

1270
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:08,320
Speaker 1: the common i'd say ailments that we have as a

1271
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:11,639
Speaker 1: modern society is not knowing and not wanting to know

1272
01:14:12,200 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: not just about our food, but about lots like just

1273
01:14:14,080 --> 01:14:16,080
Speaker 1: putting blinders on, Like I don't really want to know

1274
01:14:16,920 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 1: how any of this is produced. It's so much easier,

1275
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:22,400
Speaker 1: whether whether it's my smartphone or my food, or my

1276
01:14:22,479 --> 01:14:25,000
Speaker 1: clothes or my car. I just don't want to know, right,

1277
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:29,639
Speaker 1: And once you start to know, it's uncomfortable. And then

1278
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:31,240
Speaker 1: sometimes you have to make a decision about what you

1279
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:33,720
Speaker 1: can do about what you know. So one decision is

1280
01:14:33,760 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna become vegetarian or vegan. And I think that

1281
01:14:37,360 --> 01:14:43,599
Speaker 1: that that same value underpins some hunter's choice to hunt,

1282
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:47,400
Speaker 1: including most, if not all, of those who came out

1283
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:51,120
Speaker 1: of being a vegetarian, like I'm gonna know what happens

1284
01:14:51,479 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 1: because I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna be right there

1285
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 1: and deal with it and confronted. So I think there's

1286
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: a common there's a common motivation there. It strikes me.

1287
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 1: Question I would ask too, is do you feel because

1288
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:06,080
Speaker 1: you're what you're talking about is a really complicated understanding

1289
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:09,840
Speaker 1: now of of where your food comes from, and you're

1290
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,519
Speaker 1: being struck with this. I'm being lied to, manipulated, I'm

1291
01:15:13,520 --> 01:15:16,280
Speaker 1: being told this is healthy when it's not. I'm being

1292
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:18,360
Speaker 1: told this is the way that our American diet works,

1293
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 1: and this is the way that you know, I should

1294
01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:22,880
Speaker 1: be comfortable in eating this way, and you feel I

1295
01:15:23,280 --> 01:15:25,479
Speaker 1: did this too. When I started reading about factory farming

1296
01:15:25,479 --> 01:15:27,679
Speaker 1: and reading about the way that we get our meat

1297
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,320
Speaker 1: and even the word organic, the way that's been bastardized

1298
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: and thrown around, you feel a little bit angry, a

1299
01:15:33,040 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: little bit used, a little bit lied to, a little

1300
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 1: bit part of a big system in which you have

1301
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,839
Speaker 1: no control. So then you start searching around for control.

1302
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I've thought about when

1303
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: i've to I've thought about veganism is that it becomes

1304
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 1: it's like really religious idea almost um And I wonder

1305
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:54,439
Speaker 1: if people aren't confronting this really hard truth and taking

1306
01:15:54,439 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 1: the first easy way out. Is that something that you

1307
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 1: would agree with or I'm just trying to explore, like,

1308
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:04,960
Speaker 1: how you get from confronting this this really basically terrible

1309
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 1: idea of the system that you're in. Now you you

1310
01:16:08,320 --> 01:16:11,400
Speaker 1: want to weigh out immediately, and and maybe veganism is

1311
01:16:11,439 --> 01:16:16,559
Speaker 1: just the intellectually easiest way to get out, But I'm

1312
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:18,639
Speaker 1: not sure. I'm not sure about that. Yeah, it's interesting,

1313
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess my caution there would just be

1314
01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 1: that I, um, I don't want to dismiss right, No,

1315
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 1: dismiss the people or the ideas that. Like I said,

1316
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: I think we share so many values that it's it's silly,

1317
01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:35,479
Speaker 1: but there's I'm just trying to, you know, break down

1318
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:39,479
Speaker 1: the mechanics of how you go from facing this hard

1319
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:42,679
Speaker 1: truth to getting getting to veganism and then and then

1320
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 1: often coming back. I've seen that. I've seen that enough

1321
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 1: to know that it's it's a small trend, but a

1322
01:16:48,200 --> 01:16:54,000
Speaker 1: trend on the word. Um, I think that, you know,

1323
01:16:54,040 --> 01:17:01,680
Speaker 1: the the very sort of relatively it's simple personal conclusion

1324
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:04,439
Speaker 1: that we can draw, for example, like oh I didn't

1325
01:17:04,439 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 1: need to kill that fish, or I didn't need to

1326
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:09,400
Speaker 1: eat that piece of factory pork or whatever it is.

1327
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:14,439
Speaker 1: Then I think we naturally look for ways to apply

1328
01:17:14,560 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 1: that more broadly. Right, And so there's all kinds of

1329
01:17:20,479 --> 01:17:22,400
Speaker 1: what Once we start to think that and look around

1330
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:26,400
Speaker 1: and read and talk to people, we're gonna find resonant ideas.

1331
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:29,240
Speaker 1: Some of those are gonna be veganism. But you know,

1332
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:31,840
Speaker 1: I could just have easily at that point in my

1333
01:17:31,880 --> 01:17:35,280
Speaker 1: life perhaps um, you know, come across you know, start

1334
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:37,760
Speaker 1: to have a conversation with a really ethical hunter, because

1335
01:17:37,840 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 1: you know this is really important, you know, like nutritional

1336
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 1: food for you, but you don't want to get it

1337
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:44,080
Speaker 1: from that factory. Here. Let me show you how. You know,

1338
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:46,679
Speaker 1: I could have been a different direction, right, and again

1339
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 1: it would have been like I don't know if that

1340
01:17:48,720 --> 01:17:50,920
Speaker 1: would qualify as like the easy way out right, but

1341
01:17:51,000 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 1: it's a prepackaged or not exactly be packaged. But you know,

1342
01:17:54,479 --> 01:17:56,240
Speaker 1: here's a set of ideas that someone else has already

1343
01:17:56,240 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: thought through, is going to help me. Yeah, gets my

1344
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:01,840
Speaker 1: own point, Like veganism is not easy. No, just saying

1345
01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:03,799
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna eat any of this stuff that's readily available.

1346
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:07,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go in this whole new exploratory way to eat.

1347
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:10,559
Speaker 1: That's not easy. Um, but I think you become it

1348
01:18:10,600 --> 01:18:15,519
Speaker 1: can become fundamentalists, so can hunting. Right, So you know,

1349
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: we just know we're right, and we're gonna and now

1350
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 1: here we're gonna justify it, you know. Yeah. That and

1351
01:18:23,479 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: that's what we were just talking about. That Game Changers

1352
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:28,400
Speaker 1: documentary that I get. I have so many emails about

1353
01:18:28,439 --> 01:18:32,960
Speaker 1: this thing. Um, there's that's it's it seems to me

1354
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:36,200
Speaker 1: like it's vegan propaganda um in a weird way. So

1355
01:18:36,240 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, um if if that's just where we

1356
01:18:40,120 --> 01:18:42,600
Speaker 1: are as a culture, there's there's that side of the

1357
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: coin has an easier outlet to get things like that

1358
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:48,799
Speaker 1: out into popular culture. I don't really know how that works,

1359
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:51,439
Speaker 1: but certainly because vegans is on the rise and hunting

1360
01:18:51,479 --> 01:18:54,880
Speaker 1: is on um the decline, if you were just to say, like, hey,

1361
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:57,800
Speaker 1: I think both of these are kind of in in

1362
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,320
Speaker 1: a weird way of solutions to what we see is

1363
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 1: a massive or responses to this stimuli of understanding that

1364
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 1: this there's this big issue part of Then then with

1365
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:11,720
Speaker 1: that application, what are we doing here with the rise

1366
01:19:11,760 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 1: and the decline? Is it is that that Hunting's PR

1367
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:17,840
Speaker 1: agency sucks and that vegans PR agency is great? Is

1368
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:21,440
Speaker 1: it that? Um? Is it just where people are being exposed?

1369
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,799
Speaker 1: There's the political bend that that most vegans are liberal.

1370
01:19:26,120 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 1: I think I can't remember what I have to look

1371
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,160
Speaker 1: up the numbers, but there's numbers saying like I think

1372
01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:33,880
Speaker 1: eleven of liberals are v are vegan and only two

1373
01:19:33,920 --> 01:19:36,559
Speaker 1: percent of conservatives. And that's like where do you live,

1374
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:39,880
Speaker 1: what's your community? It's always cultural factors. Yeah, so I

1375
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:42,760
Speaker 1: could keep going. I mean more liberal people live in

1376
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:45,360
Speaker 1: urban areas more, you know, and that's where kind of

1377
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: the centers of a lot of veganism. Um, You're not

1378
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: going to Sheboygan and find it a bunch of ethical vegans.

1379
01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:53,519
Speaker 1: So I say all that to say, I mean that

1380
01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:56,320
Speaker 1: there's some exploration in there. I'm sure have you thought

1381
01:19:56,360 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 1: about all the things? I just all the random to

1382
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:06,000
Speaker 1: that is uh, I mean I think that right now

1383
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:10,880
Speaker 1: in this like just speaking for the US, I think

1384
01:20:10,920 --> 01:20:13,840
Speaker 1: it's true somewhat elsewhere in Canada and Europe and other

1385
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:15,880
Speaker 1: parts of the world to some degree as well, But

1386
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 1: right now in the US, my sense is that a

1387
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:26,320
Speaker 1: fairly substantial proportion of the hunting community and hunting media

1388
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:32,120
Speaker 1: are not really tuned into like mainstream communication and values

1389
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:35,040
Speaker 1: and like how to get the starting to be like

1390
01:20:35,040 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 1: starting to talk about local food. And that's happening right state.

1391
01:20:38,880 --> 01:20:41,439
Speaker 1: Wildife agencies are starting to recognize that, and you know,

1392
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:45,880
Speaker 1: the whole R three recruitment, you know, retention reactivation um

1393
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 1: is starting to tap into oh, you know, we need

1394
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:51,160
Speaker 1: to think about these cultural differences, We need to talk

1395
01:20:51,160 --> 01:20:54,519
Speaker 1: about values, we need to think about food as a

1396
01:20:54,560 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 1: primary motivator and use that message. But a lot of

1397
01:20:58,200 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 1: the you know, the sort of what has been the

1398
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 1: juggernaut of the hunting industry for recent decades is so

1399
01:21:10,040 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 1: oriented towards particular demographics and particular value systems, and and

1400
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:19,080
Speaker 1: sort of repeating particular stories and images that just do

1401
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 1: not resonate with most of the public, right, and so

1402
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 1: out of touch. Yeah, where whereas the vegan you know,

1403
01:21:28,479 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 1: you know, filmmakers who are making game changes or whatever else,

1404
01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, are probably quite a bit more in touch

1405
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 1: with what's going to appeal and resonate with. They clearly are.

1406
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:41,639
Speaker 1: I mean, I think they clearly are, just by looking

1407
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 1: at where we are in the trends, and and if

1408
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 1: we were to say, if we were to say, put

1409
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:50,240
Speaker 1: level set these things they say, veganism isn't is not

1410
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:53,320
Speaker 1: great for the environment on a mass scale, we know that.

1411
01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:56,120
Speaker 1: I mean, we certainly could figure it out. Um, hunting

1412
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,120
Speaker 1: on a mass scale wouldn't work either. But if we

1413
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:01,959
Speaker 1: level set them as like, both of them have good qualities,

1414
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 1: both of them have bad qualities, And then we start

1415
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 1: to examine why one's growing in one drinking and I

1416
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,160
Speaker 1: think what you're saying is is a huge part of

1417
01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:10,719
Speaker 1: it but one of the things, you know, you've said

1418
01:22:11,960 --> 01:22:14,320
Speaker 1: that you've run across other people who you know, we're

1419
01:22:14,400 --> 01:22:19,760
Speaker 1: vegetarian or vegan, became interested in hunting. Um, I know

1420
01:22:20,960 --> 01:22:28,400
Speaker 1: folks who are vegetarian. But the leade meat, if it's

1421
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:35,840
Speaker 1: wild and if it's taken by a hunter, they know

1422
01:22:35,960 --> 01:22:39,800
Speaker 1: and respect. So it's you know, that animal didn't come

1423
01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:43,439
Speaker 1: through a factory farm, the animal lived a wildlife, and

1424
01:22:44,320 --> 01:22:48,840
Speaker 1: they trust that person, that hunter they know to have

1425
01:22:49,200 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 1: conducted that hunt and taking that animal in a really

1426
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:55,720
Speaker 1: ethical way. And so there's okay, this is totally sustainable

1427
01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:58,439
Speaker 1: in terms of environmental footprint as long as they didn't

1428
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 1: you know fly that smiles to right. But but if

1429
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 1: this is you know, something they took, you know, within

1430
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:08,880
Speaker 1: their normal you know where they would be anyway, Um,

1431
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:15,080
Speaker 1: and they trust the ethics. You know that that that

1432
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:18,479
Speaker 1: relationship between the hunter and the hunted and and that

1433
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 1: ethical to mention, there are plenty of people who are

1434
01:23:22,160 --> 01:23:28,920
Speaker 1: venterharing vegan, but because there ethically and environmentally driven, will

1435
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:30,800
Speaker 1: make an exception for that, and they recognize that as

1436
01:23:30,840 --> 01:23:33,720
Speaker 1: being within their values set, you know, And so there's

1437
01:23:33,760 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 1: that that overlap. Yeah, like if you're looking at it

1438
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:38,120
Speaker 1: as a ven diagram. I think that that middle piece,

1439
01:23:38,160 --> 01:23:41,040
Speaker 1: the pieces Alten focused on in that circumstance is bigger

1440
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:43,120
Speaker 1: than we think it is, and all we have to

1441
01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 1: do is kind of talk about it enough where people

1442
01:23:45,080 --> 01:23:48,000
Speaker 1: are realizing we're like this, if if you would look

1443
01:23:48,040 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: at veganism as a tool to better yourself your diet

1444
01:23:51,280 --> 01:23:53,439
Speaker 1: in the environment, and hunting is a tool to better yourself,

1445
01:23:53,439 --> 01:23:56,960
Speaker 1: you're diet in the environment, you can do both. Like

1446
01:23:57,160 --> 01:24:00,360
Speaker 1: it's if we would just erase the idea a lotical

1447
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:05,559
Speaker 1: battles here, which which again I think, um, most people

1448
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:08,760
Speaker 1: get into hunting for for much different reasons than vegans,

1449
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 1: you know, more modern vegans to get into veganism. Um,

1450
01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,800
Speaker 1: I think maybe that's part of why more vegans are

1451
01:24:15,840 --> 01:24:18,880
Speaker 1: activists than hunters being activists, and part of the reason

1452
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:21,400
Speaker 1: why that culture is more insular and hunting and less

1453
01:24:21,479 --> 01:24:25,479
Speaker 1: and less so in vegan circles. And there again that's

1454
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:28,920
Speaker 1: I'm making that up, but that's just what it seems

1455
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:31,400
Speaker 1: to me as you try to kind of empirically look

1456
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:33,880
Speaker 1: at what's going on with this stuff, and the trick

1457
01:24:33,960 --> 01:24:36,960
Speaker 1: is for me anyway, you know, what I've tried to

1458
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 1: do over the years is to cultivate those conversations where

1459
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:45,360
Speaker 1: people who are coming from all those ferment perspectives are welcome,

1460
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:49,400
Speaker 1: you know. So it's not oh, this is hunting propaganda

1461
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,400
Speaker 1: and this is you know, vegans are bad and wrong. No,

1462
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:57,880
Speaker 1: this is a conversation where we can collectively think together

1463
01:24:58,040 --> 01:25:00,160
Speaker 1: we're not gonna try to necessarily change their mind, but

1464
01:25:00,200 --> 01:25:03,519
Speaker 1: give each other new insights and new perspectives. And you

1465
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 1: know that takes a willingness on everyone's part um to listen,

1466
01:25:08,000 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 1: not just to count of the other person's argument, right,

1467
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:11,720
Speaker 1: but to really understand where they're coming from and get

1468
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:13,880
Speaker 1: a sense of what are their values and recognize common

1469
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:18,479
Speaker 1: values um and not be so defensive and protective of

1470
01:25:18,520 --> 01:25:21,480
Speaker 1: ourselves right, which, no matter where we are on these spectrums,

1471
01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:24,439
Speaker 1: a lot of us are. You live in that you like,

1472
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: you live in those echo chambers, and then when you're

1473
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:30,160
Speaker 1: asked to are confronted with something uncomfortable, there's this immediate

1474
01:25:30,200 --> 01:25:32,559
Speaker 1: pushback from the table. And I've gotten that when I've

1475
01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:35,519
Speaker 1: had vegans on and animal rights folks on and um

1476
01:25:35,640 --> 01:25:39,679
Speaker 1: bear you know, bear advocates that don't want another grizzly

1477
01:25:39,720 --> 01:25:44,280
Speaker 1: very killed for the next millennium. Um, what you what

1478
01:25:44,439 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 1: I find is that there if you can remain calm

1479
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:49,439
Speaker 1: and collected and just work through these ideas, there always

1480
01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:52,599
Speaker 1: is common ground. There has to be where where humans

1481
01:25:52,600 --> 01:25:55,320
Speaker 1: living in the same environments, here has to be common ground.

1482
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:59,000
Speaker 1: And so in this case there must be too. Um

1483
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:01,320
Speaker 1: by wonder you know, have you seen kind of both

1484
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:04,120
Speaker 1: sides of the coin more modern in the hunting sense

1485
01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 1: as you look at um and are possibly frustrated by

1486
01:26:07,840 --> 01:26:11,439
Speaker 1: kind of where the core hunting community is going. Um,

1487
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:13,639
Speaker 1: how do you articulate that? You know, you're looking at

1488
01:26:13,840 --> 01:26:17,040
Speaker 1: your the urban set of people that are they are

1489
01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:19,519
Speaker 1: in these urban environments. They do very much want to

1490
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:22,360
Speaker 1: get outside and reconnect with nature. They yearn to eat better,

1491
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:24,960
Speaker 1: and but they just don't know this is a real option.

1492
01:26:25,000 --> 01:26:27,439
Speaker 1: They they're thinking about trophy hunting when they think about it,

1493
01:26:27,520 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 1: so they're driven away from learning about it. Um. I

1494
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:33,200
Speaker 1: have my feelings on why that's true. Why do you

1495
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:38,080
Speaker 1: think you know that's happening and things aren't bubbling as

1496
01:26:38,080 --> 01:26:41,799
Speaker 1: they probably should. Well, it's interesting, I mean, it's probably

1497
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:45,960
Speaker 1: a maybe should be called like a micro trend. But

1498
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:50,599
Speaker 1: but there is growing interest like I mean just between

1499
01:26:52,160 --> 01:26:54,000
Speaker 1: like when I was trying to shop my book around,

1500
01:26:54,840 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 1: find an agent, find a publisher, which I've never done before. Uh,

1501
01:26:59,560 --> 01:27:01,680
Speaker 1: we had a marketing plan, and so we had to

1502
01:27:01,680 --> 01:27:05,120
Speaker 1: look at other books in the genre broadly. And you know,

1503
01:27:05,439 --> 01:27:08,519
Speaker 1: there were some really thoughtful hunting books, you know, Ted

1504
01:27:08,600 --> 01:27:11,720
Speaker 1: Carrosotte's work, and Richard Nelson's work, and David Peterson's work

1505
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 1: that had come out in the previous you know, decade

1506
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:23,000
Speaker 1: or two, um, but nothing really recent, and nothing really focused,

1507
01:27:23,640 --> 01:27:29,040
Speaker 1: especially the recent ones really focused on food and nothing

1508
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:33,080
Speaker 1: about vegetarian and most people, most people grew up hunting.

1509
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:35,760
Speaker 1: Richard Nelson didn't grow up hunting, but a lot of

1510
01:27:35,800 --> 01:27:39,080
Speaker 1: these folks grew up hunting. Who who you know? Right?

1511
01:27:39,760 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 1: These books? And I looked back a few years ago

1512
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:46,799
Speaker 1: when I was given a talk thinking about the variety

1513
01:27:46,800 --> 01:27:50,559
Speaker 1: of books that I seen come out um in and

1514
01:27:50,600 --> 01:27:54,519
Speaker 1: around the time that minded, and I realized that just

1515
01:27:54,680 --> 01:27:58,240
Speaker 1: in this span of a few years, there was a

1516
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:02,719
Speaker 1: slew of books. Right, My book came out, Georgia Pella

1517
01:28:02,760 --> 01:28:06,280
Speaker 1: Greenis book Girl Hunter came out, Jackson Lander's book Hunting,

1518
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:10,439
Speaker 1: Deer for Food came out, um, Steve Ronald's book Mediator.

1519
01:28:10,720 --> 01:28:17,080
Speaker 1: You know, came out, Hankshaw's book Gathered Cook came out. Uh,

1520
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:19,320
Speaker 1: you know, there was just this I think I'm missing,

1521
01:28:19,320 --> 01:28:23,439
Speaker 1: oh um, Lily mccallin's book called a Mild. So like

1522
01:28:24,200 --> 01:28:26,760
Speaker 1: half a dozen books came out in this like three

1523
01:28:26,840 --> 01:28:30,040
Speaker 1: year period, and the only one of them was a

1524
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:33,679
Speaker 1: lifelong hunter is Steve. Everyone else who wrote these books

1525
01:28:34,040 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 1: were people who came to it as adults, and some

1526
01:28:36,080 --> 01:28:39,640
Speaker 1: of them who've been vegetarian. So there's this, you know,

1527
01:28:39,720 --> 01:28:46,439
Speaker 1: following the sort of beginnings of local food movement and

1528
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:53,880
Speaker 1: Michael Pollen's work, and you know, in the past ten

1529
01:28:54,120 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: fifteen years, there's been this spike and in conversations and

1530
01:28:59,120 --> 01:29:01,880
Speaker 1: interest about hunting for food and all of that. So

1531
01:29:02,479 --> 01:29:04,720
Speaker 1: I actually think it is happening. And then you know

1532
01:29:04,800 --> 01:29:09,720
Speaker 1: people who whether urban or or rural or suburban, there

1533
01:29:09,840 --> 01:29:13,639
Speaker 1: is a there is a spike, and it's not gonna

1534
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:16,880
Speaker 1: I don't think it's gonna turn around, like the demographics

1535
01:29:17,000 --> 01:29:19,600
Speaker 1: of of hunting in a dramatic way, the number of

1536
01:29:19,640 --> 01:29:22,519
Speaker 1: hunters in a dramatic way. But I think it's changing

1537
01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:25,000
Speaker 1: the conversation about hunting. So it's not just oh, it's

1538
01:29:25,000 --> 01:29:28,160
Speaker 1: all about trophy hunting. That's not people's image of what

1539
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:32,160
Speaker 1: hunting quote unquote is totally agreed. Right, There's just other there.

1540
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:35,639
Speaker 1: There is those traditional core hunting things that you can

1541
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 1: go find. They're everywhere and a lot of them are legitimate.

1542
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 1: But then you have this new crop of of folks

1543
01:29:41,040 --> 01:29:44,360
Speaker 1: Like I met Georgia Pellagreni five or six years ago,

1544
01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:46,640
Speaker 1: and she was first getting into this, and then I

1545
01:29:46,640 --> 01:29:49,559
Speaker 1: read Omini Worst Dilemma. But Poland I read your book

1546
01:29:49,880 --> 01:29:52,360
Speaker 1: and I remember thinking whoa and I wrote. I started

1547
01:29:52,360 --> 01:29:56,000
Speaker 1: writing some stories for Pigeon Telling magazine about the media revolution,

1548
01:29:57,280 --> 01:30:01,599
Speaker 1: and um that was twenty twenty fourteen when I wrote

1549
01:30:01,840 --> 01:30:03,439
Speaker 1: a cover story where we just had a big chunk

1550
01:30:03,439 --> 01:30:04,920
Speaker 1: of meat on a knife and we said the media

1551
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:07,519
Speaker 1: Revolution and we talked to Steve and Georgia and another

1552
01:30:08,640 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 1: I was recognizing it even then that that something was happening.

1553
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,200
Speaker 1: But I think your point is kind of where I

1554
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:17,040
Speaker 1: sit now, is like, does this trend, whether it's a

1555
01:30:17,040 --> 01:30:19,840
Speaker 1: micro trend or something that will become more macro, does

1556
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:23,240
Speaker 1: this trend have enough steam kind of change the tide

1557
01:30:23,280 --> 01:30:26,960
Speaker 1: of the overall hunting numbers or huntings overall cultural impact.

1558
01:30:27,400 --> 01:30:29,880
Speaker 1: But you know, if you think about numbers. I think

1559
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:33,640
Speaker 1: one question is, so how many hunters do we want? So,

1560
01:30:33,680 --> 01:30:37,320
Speaker 1: as you said, we can't have two hundred million active

1561
01:30:37,320 --> 01:30:40,360
Speaker 1: deer hunters in North America, right, I mean it would

1562
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:43,680
Speaker 1: be insane. We have a lot more moneyless, you know

1563
01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:48,519
Speaker 1: what I mean, it wouldn't work, right. Um, So what

1564
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:51,519
Speaker 1: percentage of the population is four percent? A good number

1565
01:30:52,280 --> 01:30:56,280
Speaker 1: is is too many? Like point four percent is probably

1566
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:58,519
Speaker 1: less than we want. But I mean somewhere in there

1567
01:30:59,400 --> 01:31:03,840
Speaker 1: there's a sweet But the question that I'm interested in

1568
01:31:04,479 --> 01:31:08,000
Speaker 1: is less like the numbers. It translates into conservation dollars.

1569
01:31:08,000 --> 01:31:11,040
Speaker 1: But there's other models for funding conservation, whether it's sales

1570
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:14,080
Speaker 1: taxes or other other ways to fund conservation that have

1571
01:31:14,160 --> 01:31:18,600
Speaker 1: been implemented in some places. Uh, it's more what's the

1572
01:31:19,320 --> 01:31:24,600
Speaker 1: what's the cultural and political climate and around hunting? You know,

1573
01:31:25,640 --> 01:31:30,519
Speaker 1: how is it understood and how are those who are

1574
01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:32,920
Speaker 1: concerned about it are opposed to it, how are they

1575
01:31:33,000 --> 01:31:37,400
Speaker 1: engaged and how are those who practice hunting engaged in

1576
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:42,320
Speaker 1: the conversation? So that hunting is something that can go

1577
01:31:42,439 --> 01:31:47,840
Speaker 1: on and not just be banned because it gets hated, um,

1578
01:31:47,880 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 1: but something that is recognized as being a practice that

1579
01:31:54,520 --> 01:32:01,200
Speaker 1: has environmental value, has ethical value, is a reasonable and

1580
01:32:02,160 --> 01:32:07,360
Speaker 1: defensible and valuable way of engaging with the natural world.

1581
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:11,240
Speaker 1: And that's what I want to see happen, right And

1582
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:14,360
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't know that it particularly matters

1583
01:32:14,360 --> 01:32:17,439
Speaker 1: whether of Americans hunt or twelve percent of Americans you

1584
01:32:17,479 --> 01:32:23,400
Speaker 1: know the other or eight percent. How are they perceiving it?

1585
01:32:23,960 --> 01:32:27,000
Speaker 1: If they're perceiving at all, you know what's there and

1586
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:30,320
Speaker 1: right now, you know it pretty consistently over the decades.

1587
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:34,840
Speaker 1: You look at the survey data, you know, by and

1588
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:39,280
Speaker 1: large Americans support hunting if it's done for certain reasons,

1589
01:32:39,520 --> 01:32:42,559
Speaker 1: if there are certain values implicit in it, if it's

1590
01:32:42,560 --> 01:32:44,439
Speaker 1: done for other reasons or other values were listening it

1591
01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:46,479
Speaker 1: not so much in popular culture, we may kind of

1592
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:49,000
Speaker 1: a dividing line. Right hunt for food good? I don't know.

1593
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:52,760
Speaker 1: The numbers are always plus people or at least plus

1594
01:32:52,840 --> 01:32:55,680
Speaker 1: eight percent most that I'm seeing, they they vary as

1595
01:32:55,720 --> 01:32:59,559
Speaker 1: they would that. You know, if you say do you

1596
01:32:59,600 --> 01:33:03,599
Speaker 1: agree with hunting for food, and that simple question, four

1597
01:33:03,600 --> 01:33:05,600
Speaker 1: out of five, eight out of ten, nine out of

1598
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:08,360
Speaker 1: time people say yes. And then if you switch it

1599
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:10,519
Speaker 1: and you say do you agree with the trophy hunting?

1600
01:33:10,840 --> 01:33:13,680
Speaker 1: Almost everybody, and then it becomes what does that mean?

1601
01:33:13,720 --> 01:33:15,920
Speaker 1: What stuff you mean? And you know what if you're

1602
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, you value the meat and you're looking for

1603
01:33:18,360 --> 01:33:20,280
Speaker 1: a big animal. I mean there's there's lots of layers

1604
01:33:20,280 --> 01:33:22,840
Speaker 1: to these conversations, and in removing those layers in the

1605
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:25,840
Speaker 1: pop in the more popular sense, that's where we are, Like,

1606
01:33:25,880 --> 01:33:28,280
Speaker 1: that's exactly where we are. We're kind of stuck with

1607
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 1: these two you know, polarized versions of what hunting is.

1608
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:34,600
Speaker 1: It so either really ethical and and really trendy and

1609
01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:37,799
Speaker 1: really good for you and really you know, if society

1610
01:33:37,840 --> 01:33:40,759
Speaker 1: is just asking is this a good thing? We've decided

1611
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,920
Speaker 1: I think that that is, and that this other thing,

1612
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:46,680
Speaker 1: trophy hunting, is kind of the underbelly of the practice. Right,

1613
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:51,479
Speaker 1: That's how much trickier. Yeah, unpacking it would be. It

1614
01:33:51,520 --> 01:33:53,720
Speaker 1: would be terrible unpacking. But but I think you're right

1615
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 1: that there are some forces. Um, hopefully this podcast and

1616
01:33:58,080 --> 01:34:00,280
Speaker 1: and what we're doing a meat eater can be scene.

1617
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:02,479
Speaker 1: Is that like that that we're just trying to kind

1618
01:34:02,520 --> 01:34:06,040
Speaker 1: of walk forward this idea that we truly and strongly

1619
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 1: believe in. I know you do too, that when done ethically,

1620
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:11,440
Speaker 1: when done right, when done thoughtfully. Hunting is a prescription.

1621
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:14,400
Speaker 1: It's a medicine for how we relate to animals, how

1622
01:34:14,439 --> 01:34:18,000
Speaker 1: we eat them, our own diets, and all those things. Um, yeah,

1623
01:34:18,000 --> 01:34:20,840
Speaker 1: our sense of being part of the natural world, all

1624
01:34:21,120 --> 01:34:26,120
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah. Absolutely. And the you know, the people

1625
01:34:26,120 --> 01:34:29,559
Speaker 1: who didn't grow up hunting but but come to it later,

1626
01:34:30,160 --> 01:34:32,200
Speaker 1: even if they just think about it, even if they

1627
01:34:32,240 --> 01:34:34,799
Speaker 1: just try it for a year or two, they become

1628
01:34:34,880 --> 01:34:40,760
Speaker 1: ambassadors too. Family members, co workers, circles of friends who

1629
01:34:40,800 --> 01:34:44,200
Speaker 1: may out include any other hunters, just to shift the

1630
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 1: conversation and say, here's another perspective or you know, here,

1631
01:34:47,479 --> 01:34:49,280
Speaker 1: here's why I tried it, or here's why I still

1632
01:34:49,280 --> 01:34:52,200
Speaker 1: do it. Does it matter if they remain part of

1633
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:54,600
Speaker 1: the ex percent of you know, Americans who hunt and

1634
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:56,240
Speaker 1: then passed on to their kids. If they do great,

1635
01:34:56,600 --> 01:34:59,360
Speaker 1: but they just changed the conversation a bit. Yeah, And

1636
01:34:59,360 --> 01:35:01,599
Speaker 1: we're in a I think we're generationally in a space

1637
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:05,320
Speaker 1: where we can change the conversation going forward for for good,

1638
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:08,479
Speaker 1: not that like a patrilineal look at hunting like I

1639
01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:10,840
Speaker 1: got and a lot of people that I know have

1640
01:35:11,040 --> 01:35:13,240
Speaker 1: like their father. My father taught me a certain way

1641
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 1: to go, and it really wasn't based on the things

1642
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:18,080
Speaker 1: we just discussed. It was based on this is what

1643
01:35:18,120 --> 01:35:21,639
Speaker 1: we do, it's a pastime. It wasn't. It didn't devalue

1644
01:35:21,640 --> 01:35:24,160
Speaker 1: the animal, but it certainly didn't have the step to

1645
01:35:24,280 --> 01:35:26,760
Speaker 1: it right. But you know, it's interesting when I was, like,

1646
01:35:26,760 --> 01:35:28,439
Speaker 1: when I went back to grad school and did some

1647
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:32,160
Speaker 1: research on this and started interviewing folks, one thing that

1648
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:35,240
Speaker 1: I recognized is that a lot of folks who grew

1649
01:35:35,320 --> 01:35:43,800
Speaker 1: up hunting, there were things about their lives there, families, background,

1650
01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:48,439
Speaker 1: they're hunting. Maybe all of those things that they just

1651
01:35:48,479 --> 01:35:52,800
Speaker 1: took for granted, like feeling connected to the land they

1652
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:54,840
Speaker 1: were maybe they were farming family, or they just hunted,

1653
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:56,960
Speaker 1: but they fell connected the land, so they took that

1654
01:35:57,040 --> 01:35:59,320
Speaker 1: for granted. They knew where at least some of their

1655
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:01,760
Speaker 1: food came from, including some of their meat. They took

1656
01:36:01,800 --> 01:36:08,000
Speaker 1: that for granted. Um, they enjoyed being in the outdoors

1657
01:36:08,040 --> 01:36:11,200
Speaker 1: and these amazing experiences they have, some of which I

1658
01:36:11,240 --> 01:36:14,680
Speaker 1: have to do with the animals zone, which don't. Um,

1659
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:16,759
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of things that they just took for granted.

1660
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:21,040
Speaker 1: That many folks who come and hunting later in life

1661
01:36:22,520 --> 01:36:24,080
Speaker 1: and who come for those reasons they want to feel

1662
01:36:24,080 --> 01:36:25,439
Speaker 1: more connective to land, they want to know where more

1663
01:36:25,479 --> 01:36:27,519
Speaker 1: their food comes from, they want to have these experiences

1664
01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:31,960
Speaker 1: in the outdoors, etcetera. They're actually valued by both groups.

1665
01:36:32,840 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 1: But someone who grew up hunting, you just you inhaled

1666
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:41,760
Speaker 1: that as a kid, right, you just you just that

1667
01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 1: we just took that for granted. So you weren't consciously

1668
01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:46,799
Speaker 1: thinking you maybe were consciously thinking about, oh the challenge

1669
01:36:46,800 --> 01:36:50,120
Speaker 1: of it, or that this that whatever the the sort

1670
01:36:50,120 --> 01:36:54,120
Speaker 1: of was forefront of one's mind. They would have identified

1671
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:56,200
Speaker 1: here's why I hunt. I know, yeah, all those things

1672
01:36:56,240 --> 01:36:58,080
Speaker 1: I hate for granted, Yeah, I guess that's also why

1673
01:36:58,120 --> 01:37:00,559
Speaker 1: I hunt. But that's just taken for granted. And so

1674
01:37:00,600 --> 01:37:05,360
Speaker 1: I think we just emphasize different things that even though

1675
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:08,040
Speaker 1: we actually share a huge amount of common what's at

1676
01:37:08,080 --> 01:37:09,760
Speaker 1: the forefront of my mind is I'm coming out of

1677
01:37:09,800 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 1: being a vegan. Is like, you know, ethical meat and

1678
01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:16,960
Speaker 1: a confrontation with life and death. Right. Well, you know,

1679
01:37:17,400 --> 01:37:22,519
Speaker 1: my buddy who grew up hunting, you know, he's like, yeah,

1680
01:37:22,640 --> 01:37:25,880
Speaker 1: I get that, I love hanging on my death, right,

1681
01:37:25,880 --> 01:37:28,360
Speaker 1: but the you know, the food and and the life

1682
01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:31,640
Speaker 1: and death. You know, he has been leaving breathing that

1683
01:37:31,680 --> 01:37:34,640
Speaker 1: since he was twelve years old too. And I find that,

1684
01:37:34,720 --> 01:37:36,479
Speaker 1: you know what, I found that through through having these

1685
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:40,040
Speaker 1: exact conversations that I've found myself jealous of the adult

1686
01:37:40,040 --> 01:37:43,200
Speaker 1: onset hunter and vice versa. Right, I'm like, hey, I

1687
01:37:43,280 --> 01:37:45,040
Speaker 1: never really got to think about this until I was

1688
01:37:45,040 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 1: a little bit older, and I was you know, I

1689
01:37:47,439 --> 01:37:50,240
Speaker 1: was exposed to people like yourself and Steve Ronelle and

1690
01:37:50,240 --> 01:37:52,080
Speaker 1: other folks that that kind of throw that at me

1691
01:37:52,120 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 1: and said like, hey, look, you have to be you

1692
01:37:54,479 --> 01:37:57,719
Speaker 1: have to understand natural history. You have to understand how

1693
01:37:57,880 --> 01:38:00,920
Speaker 1: the natural world works, and how ecosystem work, habits of

1694
01:38:00,960 --> 01:38:03,559
Speaker 1: those And I always felt like I missed a lot

1695
01:38:03,600 --> 01:38:05,679
Speaker 1: of that. I think a lot of the adult onset

1696
01:38:05,720 --> 01:38:07,799
Speaker 1: hunters would look back at me and say, you got

1697
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:10,439
Speaker 1: an incredible gift where you could spend time with hunting,

1698
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:13,599
Speaker 1: where you could just appreciate the practice and the craft

1699
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:16,880
Speaker 1: and and the nature of it without having to wrestle

1700
01:38:16,920 --> 01:38:20,200
Speaker 1: and struggle with the more existential uh you know, and

1701
01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: you got immersed in this knowledge and skill. It was

1702
01:38:24,080 --> 01:38:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, you know, by the time you were fifteen

1703
01:38:26,360 --> 01:38:31,200
Speaker 1: years old, like you'd probably you know, learned and then

1704
01:38:31,760 --> 01:38:35,719
Speaker 1: forgotten you learned more things than I've yet learned about

1705
01:38:35,720 --> 01:38:38,200
Speaker 1: actually hunting. Right, Yeah, so we just the way that

1706
01:38:38,240 --> 01:38:39,920
Speaker 1: I got to experience it was very much how it

1707
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:43,120
Speaker 1: was passed down over many, many generations. And now we

1708
01:38:43,200 --> 01:38:46,040
Speaker 1: have a whole new generation of adult onset hunters. I

1709
01:38:46,080 --> 01:38:49,040
Speaker 1: think you fall into that that are learning it in

1710
01:38:49,080 --> 01:38:51,200
Speaker 1: a hole with a whole new prism, a whole new

1711
01:38:51,240 --> 01:38:54,720
Speaker 1: lexicon of things to try to understand. And I think, my,

1712
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:56,599
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'd love to hear what you think

1713
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:58,479
Speaker 1: on this. I think that has the ability to change

1714
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:02,200
Speaker 1: what hunting is and more or fit generationally. You know,

1715
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:05,160
Speaker 1: down the road where there's a lot, there's you know,

1716
01:39:05,479 --> 01:39:07,360
Speaker 1: say there's a million, I don't know what the number is,

1717
01:39:07,360 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 1: and say there's a couple of million adult on set

1718
01:39:09,120 --> 01:39:12,200
Speaker 1: hunters over the next decade that jump in. And they

1719
01:39:12,280 --> 01:39:14,360
Speaker 1: jump in for the reasons that you did, or reasons

1720
01:39:14,400 --> 01:39:17,920
Speaker 1: similar to you. They're going to teach their kids, um

1721
01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:20,360
Speaker 1: that this thing they learned that, as you said, that

1722
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:23,479
Speaker 1: enriches their lives. And then they become ambassadors and they're

1723
01:39:23,520 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 1: really into it there listening to crap like this and

1724
01:39:27,560 --> 01:39:30,800
Speaker 1: reading books and jumping in. Two people like yourself and

1725
01:39:30,840 --> 01:39:34,320
Speaker 1: George Pellegrini and Jesse Griffiths and folks like that, and

1726
01:39:34,400 --> 01:39:36,920
Speaker 1: so that you feel, like like I do, that has

1727
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:39,800
Speaker 1: a chance to kind of generationally redefine for a lot

1728
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:42,680
Speaker 1: of people at least what hunting is and kind of

1729
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:45,439
Speaker 1: set that path. And I think if we can do

1730
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:49,360
Speaker 1: that in a way that you know, like this conversation

1731
01:39:49,479 --> 01:39:53,880
Speaker 1: brings together the lifelong hunter and the new hunter instead

1732
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:56,839
Speaker 1: of saying, oh, we need to take this old rotten

1733
01:39:57,000 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: thing called hunting and transform it culturally, so it's well, no, no,

1734
01:40:00,800 --> 01:40:04,920
Speaker 1: let's find a way to honor and respect this whole

1735
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:06,760
Speaker 1: suite of perspectives that are coming to this and all

1736
01:40:06,760 --> 01:40:11,320
Speaker 1: these backgrounds and and you know, we're not all going

1737
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:13,439
Speaker 1: to become the same kind of hunters or you know,

1738
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:16,880
Speaker 1: I think exactly the same way. But we can have

1739
01:40:16,960 --> 01:40:21,800
Speaker 1: a shared understanding of what it is we are each

1740
01:40:21,880 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 1: doing out there and be in conversation with with the

1741
01:40:25,960 --> 01:40:28,360
Speaker 1: the public more broadly, you know, and the culture more

1742
01:40:28,360 --> 01:40:33,360
Speaker 1: broadly about about hunting um and just just onto those perspective.

1743
01:40:33,400 --> 01:40:35,560
Speaker 1: That's the trick, right, I mean, that's the trick. I

1744
01:40:35,600 --> 01:40:37,320
Speaker 1: think I probably falled into that trap, and I think

1745
01:40:37,320 --> 01:40:39,759
Speaker 1: a lot of people that really want to see change

1746
01:40:39,800 --> 01:40:41,920
Speaker 1: and really want to be able to go to somebody like,

1747
01:40:41,960 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 1: look at this thing and it's totality. Look at hunting

1748
01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:46,559
Speaker 1: and its totality, how great it is. It does have cracks,

1749
01:40:46,560 --> 01:40:49,200
Speaker 1: it does have punishes, and there are things that there's

1750
01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:51,200
Speaker 1: things that even that most hunters don't agree with that

1751
01:40:51,200 --> 01:40:55,120
Speaker 1: are happening in a very legal sense in the hunting space. UM,

1752
01:40:55,200 --> 01:40:57,920
Speaker 1: and so I think that is that they're they're in lies.

1753
01:40:58,600 --> 01:41:02,200
Speaker 1: The major issue with with folks that have a voice,

1754
01:41:02,240 --> 01:41:04,160
Speaker 1: like do you say I'm frustrated with this, let's end it,

1755
01:41:04,280 --> 01:41:06,680
Speaker 1: or hey, listen, I grew up doing this. I grew

1756
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:10,600
Speaker 1: up watching Hunter Specialist DVDs and and idolizing guys that

1757
01:41:10,600 --> 01:41:13,400
Speaker 1: were shooting Big Bucks and like Real Tree's Monster Bucks

1758
01:41:13,400 --> 01:41:15,800
Speaker 1: twenty big Bucks. That was like how I grew up.

1759
01:41:16,360 --> 01:41:18,280
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I'm not going to discredit that.

1760
01:41:18,320 --> 01:41:21,559
Speaker 1: Now that I've come to some other understanding about what

1761
01:41:21,720 --> 01:41:23,760
Speaker 1: this really is and kind of grown, I'm gonna say, like,

1762
01:41:24,120 --> 01:41:27,680
Speaker 1: I appreciate that's where I came from. I understand that

1763
01:41:27,760 --> 01:41:30,080
Speaker 1: I got to live a life where that that could

1764
01:41:30,120 --> 01:41:33,800
Speaker 1: be UM. Kind of under the guise of my father

1765
01:41:33,920 --> 01:41:35,960
Speaker 1: and the culture that we lived in. I was able

1766
01:41:35,960 --> 01:41:38,120
Speaker 1: to do that and not have to worry about any

1767
01:41:38,160 --> 01:41:41,639
Speaker 1: of this other stuff. I'm glad I got to do both.

1768
01:41:41,680 --> 01:41:45,200
Speaker 1: But some people, UM, I think, like you said, want

1769
01:41:45,200 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 1: to change. I've had people in this podcast that, Um,

1770
01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:51,320
Speaker 1: there's a magazine called Modern Huntsman, and it's it's editor

1771
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:54,080
Speaker 1: came on here and and basically just said, there's an

1772
01:41:54,080 --> 01:41:56,280
Speaker 1: old way and there's a new way, and I'm the

1773
01:41:56,320 --> 01:41:59,320
Speaker 1: new way. And in a lot of ways I can't agree.

1774
01:42:00,000 --> 01:42:05,800
Speaker 1: The boy that's troublesome. Yeah, yeah, I mean that kind

1775
01:42:05,800 --> 01:42:07,240
Speaker 1: of you know, sort of throw the baby out with

1776
01:42:07,280 --> 01:42:10,120
Speaker 1: the bathwater. One of the things that I have argued,

1777
01:42:10,800 --> 01:42:12,960
Speaker 1: and I think I do argue one spot in the

1778
01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:18,080
Speaker 1: book is that because UM, hunters in this culture are

1779
01:42:18,120 --> 01:42:21,360
Speaker 1: a minority, you know, one of our main challenges how

1780
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:25,920
Speaker 1: we get perceived by the majority, right, And that's part

1781
01:42:25,920 --> 01:42:27,840
Speaker 1: of what this struggles are over what's the new way,

1782
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:31,600
Speaker 1: old way, what's going to work? Be more sensitive to

1783
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,559
Speaker 1: public values, you know, my mainstream value. I think it's

1784
01:42:34,560 --> 01:42:39,040
Speaker 1: an important conversation to have. You need to be aware of, um,

1785
01:42:39,080 --> 01:42:42,000
Speaker 1: the reality of what hunting is and how it's perceived.

1786
01:42:42,120 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 1: And yet we also need to find ways not to

1787
01:42:47,240 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 1: dishonor you know, some of the real roots, the cultural

1788
01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:54,240
Speaker 1: roots of of hunting as as it has you know,

1789
01:42:54,320 --> 01:42:57,720
Speaker 1: existed for you know, for decades and centuries. And I

1790
01:42:57,760 --> 01:43:00,800
Speaker 1: think that's proven tough for hunting. It's because it's proven

1791
01:43:00,920 --> 01:43:03,320
Speaker 1: very tough. It's you can look at it in any

1792
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:05,559
Speaker 1: number of ways. You can look at it in the

1793
01:43:05,680 --> 01:43:08,080
Speaker 1: archery space where crossbows or not. You know, I know

1794
01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 1: that my my dad now has shoulder issues and shoots

1795
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:14,599
Speaker 1: a crossbow and and has found hunting much more pleasurable

1796
01:43:14,680 --> 01:43:17,280
Speaker 1: later in life because he's he's deadly with this crossbow,

1797
01:43:17,400 --> 01:43:19,639
Speaker 1: with a vertical bow. He had a lot of trouble

1798
01:43:20,280 --> 01:43:22,200
Speaker 1: over over the just wounding deer and it kind of

1799
01:43:22,880 --> 01:43:25,439
Speaker 1: it worried him. So just that one example, but there's

1800
01:43:25,439 --> 01:43:28,559
Speaker 1: a lot of examples within our space where um there's

1801
01:43:28,560 --> 01:43:30,280
Speaker 1: an example by I wan't have been name, and a

1802
01:43:30,280 --> 01:43:33,240
Speaker 1: lot of names here of of magazines and brands love

1803
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:36,280
Speaker 1: I love on her husband Tyler. Don't they'll take offense

1804
01:43:36,320 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 1: to the point I just made. But there was another

1805
01:43:38,320 --> 01:43:41,240
Speaker 1: magazine that's been around for a very long time that

1806
01:43:41,400 --> 01:43:45,680
Speaker 1: just had an article that talked about um it was

1807
01:43:45,800 --> 01:43:47,559
Speaker 1: it was it was full of angst and a little

1808
01:43:47,600 --> 01:43:51,200
Speaker 1: bit of anger, and it was pointed towards um the

1809
01:43:51,280 --> 01:43:53,719
Speaker 1: food culture and hunting and kind of this cross section

1810
01:43:53,840 --> 01:43:56,760
Speaker 1: that we've touched on a bit here, and it there

1811
01:43:56,840 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 1: was some anger in that, Well, we don't want people

1812
01:43:58,840 --> 01:44:01,160
Speaker 1: just coming in hunting space us to eat, you know,

1813
01:44:01,200 --> 01:44:03,400
Speaker 1: they have to understand that there's other things. You know,

1814
01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:06,559
Speaker 1: we want to celebrate Sloppy Joe sandwiches and venison burgers,

1815
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:08,559
Speaker 1: and we don't want to have to just be cooking

1816
01:44:08,560 --> 01:44:11,120
Speaker 1: shanks and be told that that. You know, there's so

1817
01:44:11,160 --> 01:44:13,599
Speaker 1: many people coming into our hunting space that just wanted,

1818
01:44:13,960 --> 01:44:17,120
Speaker 1: wanted for this reason, and I felt for for reasons

1819
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:21,920
Speaker 1: you've you've already explained. I feel like, man, that that's tough.

1820
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:24,680
Speaker 1: That's a loss for us. I feel, um, if we're

1821
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:27,120
Speaker 1: gonna we're gonna act that way in regards to like

1822
01:44:27,120 --> 01:44:29,840
Speaker 1: how people come in. And I don't think anybody comes

1823
01:44:29,880 --> 01:44:33,080
Speaker 1: in with a foodie mindset is saying that Sloppy Joe's

1824
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:36,880
Speaker 1: suck um and and and what the guy that loves

1825
01:44:36,880 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 1: Sloppy Joe shouldn't be saying that you can't have you

1826
01:44:39,640 --> 01:44:44,360
Speaker 1: can't be have a refined Asabuco and celebrated. So there's

1827
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:46,040
Speaker 1: just an example of something that came out. I mean

1828
01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:48,800
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of sort of culture and class connotations

1829
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:52,280
Speaker 1: again come into that. Right, It's like, oh, you know

1830
01:44:52,320 --> 01:44:55,719
Speaker 1: who's coming sort of taking over our tradition, who's moving

1831
01:44:55,760 --> 01:44:59,679
Speaker 1: in on our space politically culturally? You know that's against

1832
01:45:00,000 --> 01:45:03,479
Speaker 1: pensiveness about that, and there's can be from either direction

1833
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 1: sort of a superiority like ours is the real way

1834
01:45:05,880 --> 01:45:08,080
Speaker 1: or the right way, and that kind of you know,

1835
01:45:08,280 --> 01:45:11,439
Speaker 1: righteousness is not going to get us very far. Yeah,

1836
01:45:11,439 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 1: that it was a shocker for me when I read it.

1837
01:45:13,560 --> 01:45:17,439
Speaker 1: I thought that I understood it. I understand the sentiment

1838
01:45:17,520 --> 01:45:19,720
Speaker 1: like you just said that, that's a perfect way too

1839
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:23,920
Speaker 1: to articulate that feeling where you're I think this comes

1840
01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:26,120
Speaker 1: it's a starting to come out more of seeing it

1841
01:45:26,200 --> 01:45:28,439
Speaker 1: more around. Of course we're exposed to more things via

1842
01:45:28,479 --> 01:45:30,439
Speaker 1: than social media, but you've seen it more around where

1843
01:45:30,439 --> 01:45:33,559
Speaker 1: there is an angst about where some of this more

1844
01:45:34,040 --> 01:45:37,640
Speaker 1: ass hunting gets popularized and there's popular hunters guys like

1845
01:45:37,720 --> 01:45:41,280
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan and retains. This hunting kind of gets introduced

1846
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:45,400
Speaker 1: to more people, Um, the folks that are kind of

1847
01:45:45,960 --> 01:45:48,360
Speaker 1: either sitting in the background, or would you would consider

1848
01:45:48,400 --> 01:45:52,360
Speaker 1: more core or folks that that don't see hunting as

1849
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:55,040
Speaker 1: as this aspirational new thing. As we've talked about that

1850
01:45:55,120 --> 01:45:56,679
Speaker 1: kind of where I was when I was a kid,

1851
01:45:56,800 --> 01:46:00,640
Speaker 1: where where major parts of my family are. Now that

1852
01:46:00,840 --> 01:46:05,439
Speaker 1: that's happening, there is a micro culture war going down. Um,

1853
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:07,640
Speaker 1: I'm heightened too. It sit in the industry and I

1854
01:46:07,680 --> 01:46:09,680
Speaker 1: read as much as I can, but it's happening at

1855
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:12,600
Speaker 1: some level. Right. Have you seen any of that of

1856
01:46:12,640 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 1: it from where you are you exposed to that? That's something?

1857
01:46:15,120 --> 01:46:17,400
Speaker 1: Am I just being an insular I read so much

1858
01:46:17,400 --> 01:46:22,559
Speaker 1: of it when I and immersed more in it. You know,

1859
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:27,600
Speaker 1: I definitely have seen, say I've seen some of that. Um,

1860
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:29,280
Speaker 1: I think a lot of you know, some of it's

1861
01:46:30,080 --> 01:46:32,760
Speaker 1: cultural and regional part some of its generational. I mean,

1862
01:46:32,800 --> 01:46:34,960
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna he's gonna work itself out. We're

1863
01:46:35,000 --> 01:46:37,439
Speaker 1: gonna figure it out our time. And you know, just

1864
01:46:37,479 --> 01:46:40,320
Speaker 1: like you know attitudes about oh you never knew you

1865
01:46:40,360 --> 01:46:42,439
Speaker 1: never take antalyst, dear, you only take bucks because we

1866
01:46:42,479 --> 01:46:43,960
Speaker 1: need the population to grow. I was like, well, you

1867
01:46:44,000 --> 01:46:45,720
Speaker 1: know a lot of people have realized that a lot

1868
01:46:45,760 --> 01:46:48,559
Speaker 1: of parts of the country. But there's a new way

1869
01:46:48,560 --> 01:46:50,600
Speaker 1: too many deer. We actually can't do that anymore. We

1870
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:55,560
Speaker 1: actually have to do this differently, and especially the younger generations,

1871
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:59,280
Speaker 1: both lifelong hunters and new hunters have embraced that and

1872
01:47:00,600 --> 01:47:04,519
Speaker 1: recognize the ecology and biology involved and and we'll take

1873
01:47:04,520 --> 01:47:08,040
Speaker 1: those happily. Um. But you still have some old timers

1874
01:47:08,080 --> 01:47:10,439
Speaker 1: who are like, I'm not gonna do that. You just refuse,

1875
01:47:10,760 --> 01:47:12,240
Speaker 1: and I get it. You know, it's all right, you know.

1876
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:16,759
Speaker 1: So I think I think we'll well these conversations within

1877
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:20,960
Speaker 1: with the honey community. Yeah. I think social media always UM,

1878
01:47:21,000 --> 01:47:23,000
Speaker 1: I hate to always harp on that as it's it's

1879
01:47:23,040 --> 01:47:25,840
Speaker 1: but it's such a factor and now we communicate. Um.

1880
01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:28,960
Speaker 1: I think it has very much influenced because we're able

1881
01:47:29,000 --> 01:47:32,599
Speaker 1: to see, we're able to get a more visual look

1882
01:47:32,920 --> 01:47:35,400
Speaker 1: at the cultural differences in hunting. I mean, I say,

1883
01:47:35,400 --> 01:47:37,320
Speaker 1: you follow a thousand people in there from all over

1884
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:39,599
Speaker 1: the country, and your feet or whatever you're looking at

1885
01:47:40,240 --> 01:47:43,320
Speaker 1: is full of all these different perspectives and different you know,

1886
01:47:43,360 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 1: different ways to communicate hunting. And you see that and

1887
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:50,439
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden you're you are now thinking, well,

1888
01:47:51,479 --> 01:47:53,240
Speaker 1: I don't like this, and I like this, I like this,

1889
01:47:53,320 --> 01:47:54,680
Speaker 1: and I don't like that, And then you set your

1890
01:47:54,680 --> 01:47:57,439
Speaker 1: echo chamber up that way, and then you push away

1891
01:47:57,479 --> 01:48:00,000
Speaker 1: all these different types of hunting and different types of hunters.

1892
01:48:00,120 --> 01:48:02,400
Speaker 1: I would argue that it's always been like that, it's

1893
01:48:02,439 --> 01:48:05,720
Speaker 1: just amplified now because we could see it. Um. I

1894
01:48:05,720 --> 01:48:08,880
Speaker 1: think that's probably that's has to be true at some level. Yeah,

1895
01:48:09,479 --> 01:48:11,680
Speaker 1: two things I want to circle back to. One One

1896
01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:13,479
Speaker 1: in the comment I just made about age, there's a

1897
01:48:13,479 --> 01:48:15,520
Speaker 1: lot of older hunters I know who are profly happetitudoes

1898
01:48:15,560 --> 01:48:17,160
Speaker 1: and get the ecollege and biology. I don't want to

1899
01:48:17,800 --> 01:48:19,559
Speaker 1: the younger hunters getting the old guys don't. That's not

1900
01:48:19,560 --> 01:48:22,559
Speaker 1: true at all, um, because I know a lot of

1901
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:25,400
Speaker 1: older hunters who who is generally more really do get

1902
01:48:25,400 --> 01:48:28,200
Speaker 1: it generally more acceptable. Though in the younger Yeah, there's

1903
01:48:28,240 --> 01:48:30,719
Speaker 1: just a few sort of holdouts from the previous generation

1904
01:48:30,760 --> 01:48:36,320
Speaker 1: who just won't go there as always right exactly, Um.

1905
01:48:36,400 --> 01:48:39,280
Speaker 1: And some of this resistance you know that you were

1906
01:48:39,280 --> 01:48:46,719
Speaker 1: talking about two, A particular particularly refined type of cuisine

1907
01:48:46,760 --> 01:48:48,960
Speaker 1: coming into hunting, or just you know, food is not

1908
01:48:49,040 --> 01:48:52,680
Speaker 1: the only motive hunting, And just sort of this defensiveness

1909
01:48:53,160 --> 01:48:57,200
Speaker 1: and in celerity or division within that in community. UM.

1910
01:48:57,360 --> 01:49:01,680
Speaker 1: One of the things that I found really helpful from this.

1911
01:49:03,040 --> 01:49:09,200
Speaker 1: There's whole model called adaptive leadership about sort of social

1912
01:49:09,200 --> 01:49:11,439
Speaker 1: and cultural change, and one of the points they make

1913
01:49:11,960 --> 01:49:17,040
Speaker 1: in in that is that people aren't really resistant to change.

1914
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:21,639
Speaker 1: People are resistant to loss. You know. People make choices

1915
01:49:21,680 --> 01:49:23,880
Speaker 1: to change all the time. Oh I get I get

1916
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:27,120
Speaker 1: a new job with more pay, I'll take it. Oh

1917
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, I get an opportunity to you know, get

1918
01:49:30,240 --> 01:49:32,599
Speaker 1: married to someone I love and and maybe have a family,

1919
01:49:32,720 --> 01:49:36,080
Speaker 1: I'll take it. Like people are choosing change all the time.

1920
01:49:36,320 --> 01:49:40,080
Speaker 1: Doesn't present challenges, yes, but they choose change. People don't

1921
01:49:40,160 --> 01:49:46,519
Speaker 1: choose loss, you know. And so when I think that's

1922
01:49:46,520 --> 01:49:50,400
Speaker 1: what some people within you know, some hunters and some

1923
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:55,160
Speaker 1: subgroups of hunters have a fear loss when they see

1924
01:49:55,200 --> 01:49:57,160
Speaker 1: his other group coming in sort of trying to quote

1925
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:01,080
Speaker 1: take over hunting or change what hunting is. It's it's

1926
01:50:01,160 --> 01:50:03,679
Speaker 1: that and that's what we need to manage and sort

1927
01:50:03,720 --> 01:50:06,760
Speaker 1: of have conversations about is there really lost happening and

1928
01:50:06,800 --> 01:50:08,439
Speaker 1: what's going on there. That's maybe the best way I've

1929
01:50:08,479 --> 01:50:12,240
Speaker 1: heard ever heard that explained. And I've thought about that

1930
01:50:12,280 --> 01:50:14,519
Speaker 1: a lot, and people who listen to this podcast will

1931
01:50:14,760 --> 01:50:17,639
Speaker 1: cringe it even talking about the grippage and photo, because

1932
01:50:17,640 --> 01:50:19,360
Speaker 1: we talked about that a lot. I think it's become

1933
01:50:19,439 --> 01:50:22,400
Speaker 1: emblematic of what you're talking about, right, in terms of

1934
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:25,320
Speaker 1: change versus loss and that, and I've always brought up that,

1935
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:27,920
Speaker 1: I think it would be nice if we change, if

1936
01:50:27,960 --> 01:50:31,320
Speaker 1: we should think about going away from that and changing, um,

1937
01:50:31,479 --> 01:50:33,679
Speaker 1: how we do it. I don't really do that anymore.

1938
01:50:33,760 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 1: I don't think that's just it's not the right way

1939
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:39,080
Speaker 1: that I want to put out that my hunting story.

1940
01:50:39,120 --> 01:50:41,320
Speaker 1: I don't think we all understand why we even do that,

1941
01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:44,479
Speaker 1: why we all sit behind an animal in photo. I

1942
01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:46,720
Speaker 1: don't think we really understand why. Um, And if you

1943
01:50:46,760 --> 01:50:49,960
Speaker 1: start looking back, it's baked into some parts of our culture.

1944
01:50:50,000 --> 01:50:54,000
Speaker 1: I don't think we understand um historically and in other

1945
01:50:54,040 --> 01:50:55,840
Speaker 1: ways I can. I can send you a link to

1946
01:50:56,800 --> 01:50:59,200
Speaker 1: article actually it got I put it was visually came

1947
01:50:59,200 --> 01:51:01,320
Speaker 1: out in High Country, New and then and b h

1948
01:51:01,400 --> 01:51:06,599
Speaker 1: A reprinted it on online m about the photo. And

1949
01:51:06,760 --> 01:51:09,600
Speaker 1: I remember reading that one of the ethics and the

1950
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:11,920
Speaker 1: emotions that are behind that photo, and how did different

1951
01:51:11,920 --> 01:51:14,599
Speaker 1: people perceive it? And part of the culture. I got

1952
01:51:14,640 --> 01:51:16,800
Speaker 1: into that when I was so I started saying that, right,

1953
01:51:16,840 --> 01:51:19,519
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people that push back on me. No,

1954
01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:21,559
Speaker 1: I like, I'm gonna do what I want to do,

1955
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:23,519
Speaker 1: and this is how I feel about this photo. I

1956
01:51:23,560 --> 01:51:26,400
Speaker 1: don't want to lose it. Then, as you're just explaining

1957
01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:29,680
Speaker 1: change versus loss, I think what I'm talking about is

1958
01:51:29,760 --> 01:51:33,639
Speaker 1: change and how they see it is loss. Um, And

1959
01:51:33,640 --> 01:51:35,640
Speaker 1: and my points I've made in the past for very

1960
01:51:35,720 --> 01:51:38,519
Speaker 1: much around we're changing all the time. We're changing the

1961
01:51:38,520 --> 01:51:41,120
Speaker 1: way that we depict ourselves in hunting and other parts

1962
01:51:41,120 --> 01:51:43,800
Speaker 1: of our life based on society and culture and what's

1963
01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:46,720
Speaker 1: generally acceptable all the time without even knowing if there's

1964
01:51:46,720 --> 01:51:48,920
Speaker 1: things we would have done fifty years ago on a

1965
01:51:48,960 --> 01:51:51,439
Speaker 1: fishing pier that we would never do right now, and

1966
01:51:51,439 --> 01:51:54,040
Speaker 1: we haven't. We didn't actively say everybody stopped doing that,

1967
01:51:54,080 --> 01:51:57,840
Speaker 1: but over time we changed. Uh, And that gradual change

1968
01:51:57,840 --> 01:52:01,160
Speaker 1: is more acceptable. But when I articular related as I

1969
01:52:01,280 --> 01:52:03,120
Speaker 1: just quit doing it because that was I was done

1970
01:52:03,160 --> 01:52:05,760
Speaker 1: with it. Um, I think it comes across is like

1971
01:52:05,800 --> 01:52:09,719
Speaker 1: this may be a loss for our culture being taken away.

1972
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 1: It's being taken You're saying that you want to just

1973
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:14,400
Speaker 1: take this away from us when I think I'm more

1974
01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:19,120
Speaker 1: as I like, developed this thought and try to understand

1975
01:52:19,160 --> 01:52:23,360
Speaker 1: my own feelings about this silly little photo that has

1976
01:52:23,400 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 1: become a bigger thing. Um, what you just said, I

1977
01:52:26,479 --> 01:52:29,479
Speaker 1: think incredibly profound around those ideas and how we present

1978
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:33,240
Speaker 1: them and navigate them and why we feel angry one

1979
01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:35,240
Speaker 1: way or the other about it. And something as simple

1980
01:52:35,720 --> 01:52:37,840
Speaker 1: as a photo like that or a genre of photo,

1981
01:52:37,920 --> 01:52:41,639
Speaker 1: type of photo, can be incredibly powerful as a symbol.

1982
01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:44,519
Speaker 1: It's a cultural symbol, and you want to take that

1983
01:52:44,520 --> 01:52:46,920
Speaker 1: away from me, and my identity is wrapped up in

1984
01:52:46,960 --> 01:52:48,760
Speaker 1: that and you can't take that away. You know, all

1985
01:52:48,840 --> 01:52:51,400
Speaker 1: kinds of things get Yeah, I've felt that, and then

1986
01:52:51,600 --> 01:52:53,040
Speaker 1: I think one way to look at it me like, oh,

1987
01:52:53,080 --> 01:52:54,439
Speaker 1: there's a lot of assholes on the internet. But I

1988
01:52:54,479 --> 01:52:56,000
Speaker 1: don't look at it that way. I look at why

1989
01:52:56,000 --> 01:52:57,960
Speaker 1: are these people angry about this? And why is this?

1990
01:52:58,479 --> 01:53:03,280
Speaker 1: Why does this trigger to use the turn that's probably oversold?

1991
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:07,439
Speaker 1: Why does this trigger this? Um? Because I feel I

1992
01:53:07,439 --> 01:53:09,800
Speaker 1: feel personally that this is it's been good for me.

1993
01:53:10,560 --> 01:53:13,960
Speaker 1: I've gone back and forth about doing it, and um,

1994
01:53:14,000 --> 01:53:16,120
Speaker 1: not having to sit down and take the photo has

1995
01:53:16,200 --> 01:53:19,959
Speaker 1: been helpful. Like I think for me, that photo symbolizes

1996
01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:21,840
Speaker 1: a lot of things I don't agree with within the

1997
01:53:21,880 --> 01:53:24,519
Speaker 1: hunting culture. So so for me personally, it's removed some

1998
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 1: of those things from from my experience. But that's just

1999
01:53:27,560 --> 01:53:30,360
Speaker 1: me anybody, you know, I think anybody can do what

2000
01:53:30,400 --> 01:53:32,920
Speaker 1: they want. It can be argued that photos certainly has

2001
01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:35,240
Speaker 1: done some bad things for hunting when it's used, uh,

2002
01:53:35,720 --> 01:53:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, in a negative way, but you can it

2003
01:53:37,960 --> 01:53:41,080
Speaker 1: also isn't positive in many ways too. So that for me,

2004
01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:43,479
Speaker 1: I think, as much as people are probably tired of hearing,

2005
01:53:43,520 --> 01:53:46,519
Speaker 1: it is emblematic of or analogous to what you're talking

2006
01:53:46,520 --> 01:53:49,519
Speaker 1: about there, you know, And so it would be that

2007
01:53:49,520 --> 01:53:51,479
Speaker 1: would be a good thing for folks to return to

2008
01:53:51,520 --> 01:53:55,240
Speaker 1: and remember from this conversation, that change versus loss example,

2009
01:53:55,240 --> 01:53:57,320
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big one. That's a big one.

2010
01:53:57,720 --> 01:54:02,080
Speaker 1: I realized that, Um, early in the conversation we started.

2011
01:54:02,120 --> 01:54:03,800
Speaker 1: You asked about one thing and we went you know,

2012
01:54:03,880 --> 01:54:07,480
Speaker 1: we went away down that that was how podcasts are designed.

2013
01:54:07,800 --> 01:54:09,760
Speaker 1: But I mean you asked, you asked about like when

2014
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:11,880
Speaker 1: I got into hunting, Like how did I get ready

2015
01:54:11,880 --> 01:54:14,640
Speaker 1: to go out into the woods? You know? Um, and

2016
01:54:14,640 --> 01:54:16,719
Speaker 1: I don't know if you want to go back to that, please,

2017
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:18,840
Speaker 1: you know, please, I wasn't gonna let you without that,

2018
01:54:18,960 --> 01:54:21,920
Speaker 1: all right, please do we We dove off into the philosophy, right,

2019
01:54:22,720 --> 01:54:25,000
Speaker 1: which is fun. They could you could call my pockets

2020
01:54:25,000 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 1: that diving off into the philosophy too soon. Um. So yeah,

2021
01:54:30,439 --> 01:54:33,040
Speaker 1: I mean I was. I had handled firearms a bit

2022
01:54:33,080 --> 01:54:36,000
Speaker 1: as a kid, so that wasn't a big barrier for me.

2023
01:54:36,360 --> 01:54:40,240
Speaker 1: But I'd never you know, gone and hunted for food

2024
01:54:40,400 --> 01:54:43,400
Speaker 1: beyond bull frogs. You know, I never hunted mammals. I

2025
01:54:43,440 --> 01:54:48,640
Speaker 1: don't even know what I would do with it, any mammal,

2026
01:54:48,800 --> 01:54:50,960
Speaker 1: let alone a deer, you know, if if I were

2027
01:54:50,960 --> 01:54:55,480
Speaker 1: to get one. So and this was you know, I

2028
01:54:55,520 --> 01:55:00,000
Speaker 1: was getting into this and like two thousand four basically

2029
01:55:00,600 --> 01:55:03,920
Speaker 1: when I started getting into hunting. Started thinking about it earlier,

2030
01:55:03,960 --> 01:55:06,400
Speaker 1: but but I really started to get into it in

2031
01:55:06,400 --> 01:55:11,280
Speaker 1: in two thousand four. Um, and my uncle is a hunters.

2032
01:55:11,280 --> 01:55:14,800
Speaker 1: I have one immediate family member, my mom's brother, who's

2033
01:55:14,800 --> 01:55:18,000
Speaker 1: a hunter. And though he lives about a five hour

2034
01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:21,520
Speaker 1: drive away, we exchanged thousands of emails, I swear, I

2035
01:55:21,560 --> 01:55:23,640
Speaker 1: mean I was just peppering him with questions, you know,

2036
01:55:24,200 --> 01:55:27,560
Speaker 1: And I was reading and just trying to orient myself.

2037
01:55:29,280 --> 01:55:33,240
Speaker 1: And I did some small game hunting. I did, you know,

2038
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:37,320
Speaker 1: hunt snowshoe hair up and up and from out a bit.

2039
01:55:37,440 --> 01:55:43,520
Speaker 1: And that was a powerful experience to take a hair um.

2040
01:55:43,840 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 1: And then you know, having done you know, on a

2041
01:55:48,040 --> 01:55:50,640
Speaker 1: red and read a bunch of articles and talked about uncle,

2042
01:55:50,720 --> 01:55:55,480
Speaker 1: I I had some sense of being kind of ready

2043
01:55:55,520 --> 01:55:58,520
Speaker 1: to go deer hunting. Did you find a hunter? It helpful?

2044
01:55:59,640 --> 01:56:01,920
Speaker 1: I did it? I mean it was. It's limited, right,

2045
01:56:01,960 --> 01:56:07,280
Speaker 1: because the basic model is based on you know, kids

2046
01:56:07,320 --> 01:56:09,400
Speaker 1: who are coming out of hunting families. That it's not

2047
01:56:09,440 --> 01:56:13,120
Speaker 1: a mentorship program. Those are being developed in various states

2048
01:56:13,160 --> 01:56:17,520
Speaker 1: and by various organizations. But but it's a it's a

2049
01:56:17,560 --> 01:56:20,000
Speaker 1: safety you know, it's on our safety. This is what

2050
01:56:20,040 --> 01:56:24,160
Speaker 1: it really is. And so it covers some basics that

2051
01:56:24,200 --> 01:56:26,440
Speaker 1: are important and and it goes beyond safety a bit.

2052
01:56:26,560 --> 01:56:29,600
Speaker 1: Talks a little bit about conservation and ethics and so

2053
01:56:29,720 --> 01:56:32,240
Speaker 1: forth to some extent. But it's not a like a

2054
01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:37,040
Speaker 1: field training. To really train, its assumes that you have

2055
01:56:37,240 --> 01:56:40,360
Speaker 1: built into your social network or your family the people

2056
01:56:40,440 --> 01:56:42,440
Speaker 1: or person who's going to teach you. It's the minimum.

2057
01:56:42,480 --> 01:56:46,400
Speaker 1: Here's the minimum you really have to know exactly, so

2058
01:56:46,720 --> 01:56:49,280
Speaker 1: you know it, did you know you alluded to you

2059
01:56:49,280 --> 01:56:50,920
Speaker 1: didn't get one the first time you went out, and

2060
01:56:51,680 --> 01:56:54,720
Speaker 1: you know it. I didn't get it here in my

2061
01:56:54,720 --> 01:56:59,400
Speaker 1: first three years, you know. And that's not where I am.

2062
01:56:59,440 --> 01:57:03,040
Speaker 1: It's not on comment. I mean this, and the're not

2063
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:08,000
Speaker 1: that danse or and the terrain is pretty is pretty

2064
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:10,280
Speaker 1: thick and a lot of vegetation. It's not that easy

2065
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:13,720
Speaker 1: to find dear um in a lot of the country

2066
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:17,000
Speaker 1: that I hunt um. So I was glad the first year.

2067
01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:19,920
Speaker 1: Actually I'm not glad, but I'm not sure I was

2068
01:57:19,960 --> 01:57:24,000
Speaker 1: really ready to take a deer um. But that first

2069
01:57:24,160 --> 01:57:28,160
Speaker 1: year that I hunted, I hunted with my uncle for

2070
01:57:28,200 --> 01:57:31,680
Speaker 1: a few days and he got a deer while we

2071
01:57:31,680 --> 01:57:34,200
Speaker 1: were together, and so I was able to help him

2072
01:57:34,240 --> 01:57:37,160
Speaker 1: with that, which is perfect, Like that's exactly like where

2073
01:57:37,200 --> 01:57:39,760
Speaker 1: what where I was what I was ready for the

2074
01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:43,400
Speaker 1: next year, I you know, tried, I took a shot

2075
01:57:43,480 --> 01:57:45,480
Speaker 1: or two and missed that. I just think I shouldn't

2076
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:49,440
Speaker 1: have taken And it was, you know, sort of horrified

2077
01:57:49,480 --> 01:57:51,720
Speaker 1: by how easily that could have been a bad, bad hit.

2078
01:57:52,040 --> 01:57:54,680
Speaker 1: So that was difficult. But about third year came along,

2079
01:57:54,720 --> 01:57:56,960
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, come on, a ready, why

2080
01:57:57,000 --> 01:58:00,280
Speaker 1: am I doing this? Still? It's cold? I'm you know,

2081
01:58:00,720 --> 01:58:03,280
Speaker 1: is there really any point? Um supposedly out here doing

2082
01:58:03,320 --> 01:58:05,800
Speaker 1: this thing? But it's totally inefficient. I'm not I'm not

2083
01:58:05,840 --> 01:58:08,920
Speaker 1: actually getting any food from this. This is kind of

2084
01:58:08,920 --> 01:58:15,160
Speaker 1: stilly um. But in retrospect, I'm glad like it didn't

2085
01:58:15,160 --> 01:58:17,840
Speaker 1: happen in my first or even second year, that I

2086
01:58:17,880 --> 01:58:22,640
Speaker 1: needed to have a number of experiences and and spend

2087
01:58:22,680 --> 01:58:27,840
Speaker 1: some time really experiencing the hunt and some of the

2088
01:58:27,920 --> 01:58:30,680
Speaker 1: questions that come up and and some of the challenges

2089
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:33,160
Speaker 1: of it. Before I finally got I got to talk

2090
01:58:33,160 --> 01:58:36,640
Speaker 1: about building value for something waited three years anything you

2091
01:58:36,640 --> 01:58:40,240
Speaker 1: have to wait three years, so early and so early

2092
01:58:40,240 --> 01:58:43,760
Speaker 1: in my In my fourth fourth year, I got my

2093
01:58:43,840 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 1: first year, and that was incredibly powerful, and I didn't

2094
01:58:46,480 --> 01:58:47,960
Speaker 1: know if I'd ever want to do it again. I

2095
01:58:48,040 --> 01:58:51,960
Speaker 1: was just like, after all that, here's a big dead animal,

2096
01:58:53,720 --> 01:58:57,640
Speaker 1: like I mean, and and there was a lot of grief.

2097
01:58:57,680 --> 01:59:00,839
Speaker 1: I mean, just taking the life of a big, beautiful animal.

2098
01:59:01,040 --> 01:59:03,600
Speaker 1: Is that what you remember? We just had a a

2099
01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:05,520
Speaker 1: young lady that works at mediator On and she talked

2100
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:08,640
Speaker 1: about briefly something that struck me more after the conversation

2101
01:59:08,680 --> 01:59:11,600
Speaker 1: than did in the moment that she on her first deer,

2102
01:59:11,600 --> 01:59:13,560
Speaker 1: which was just just a couple of weeks ago. Now,

2103
01:59:14,840 --> 01:59:16,840
Speaker 1: I had a moment with the deer where the deer

2104
01:59:16,880 --> 01:59:19,280
Speaker 1: was looking at her. It's only hundred yards way eight

2105
01:59:19,360 --> 01:59:22,320
Speaker 1: years away, and she thought, she in her mind thought,

2106
01:59:22,440 --> 01:59:25,200
Speaker 1: this deer knows what's going to happen. And I'm more

2107
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:30,720
Speaker 1: comfortable now that its like somehow it would recognize the situation,

2108
01:59:30,760 --> 01:59:33,480
Speaker 1: the predatory situation. So that was just an interesting one

2109
01:59:33,520 --> 01:59:36,480
Speaker 1: to me. Other new hunters that I've run across are

2110
01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:39,880
Speaker 1: really interested in how quickly it dies and if there's

2111
01:59:39,880 --> 01:59:42,160
Speaker 1: any twitching or there's you know, so those things I've

2112
01:59:42,240 --> 01:59:44,880
Speaker 1: run into. What did you have any you know, kind

2113
01:59:44,880 --> 01:59:48,480
Speaker 1: of thoughtful moments or things that struck struck you during

2114
01:59:48,800 --> 01:59:53,240
Speaker 1: during that first death, I guess, I mean, I was

2115
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:57,960
Speaker 1: really committed to not taking the shot unless I was sure.

2116
01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:01,160
Speaker 1: And this is like I said, The woods ended up

2117
02:00:01,160 --> 02:00:05,440
Speaker 1: being like thirty yards broadside waiting for the deer taking

2118
02:00:05,480 --> 02:00:07,640
Speaker 1: extra steps. There were no twigs between me and that deer,

2119
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:11,760
Speaker 1: you know, or between me and that you know, vital area,

2120
02:00:12,040 --> 02:00:14,680
Speaker 1: and you know, I shot that deer through the heart.

2121
02:00:15,000 --> 02:00:18,560
Speaker 1: At thirty yards and it ran and fell and was done,

2122
02:00:19,480 --> 02:00:21,600
Speaker 1: and I wanted it to go with that quickly. But

2123
02:00:21,720 --> 02:00:25,880
Speaker 1: I think I really experienced shock, just emotional shock. I was,

2124
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:28,800
Speaker 1: I mean shock it finally happened. I was like, after

2125
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:32,000
Speaker 1: this many, you know, hours and weeks and years trying

2126
02:00:32,320 --> 02:00:35,440
Speaker 1: shock that had happened. But but emotional shock of just

2127
02:00:35,480 --> 02:00:40,480
Speaker 1: the impact at a at a heart or soul level

2128
02:00:40,560 --> 02:00:43,160
Speaker 1: of taking the life of another animal as big as

2129
02:00:43,160 --> 02:00:46,760
Speaker 1: you are or bigger. You know, there's something about that,

2130
02:00:47,440 --> 02:00:50,280
Speaker 1: especially if you've never didn't grow up doing it, that

2131
02:00:50,280 --> 02:00:52,600
Speaker 1: that hits you pretty Not for everybody, but it hit

2132
02:00:52,640 --> 02:00:56,320
Speaker 1: me pretty hard. And for a couple of days I

2133
02:00:56,360 --> 02:00:59,240
Speaker 1: was just in kind of an altered state of consciousness,

2134
02:01:00,040 --> 02:01:03,640
Speaker 1: just like whoa you know. And And during those couple

2135
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:06,800
Speaker 1: of days I've always known, especially because going back to

2136
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:11,680
Speaker 1: being our conversation, I was coming to hunting with many

2137
02:01:11,720 --> 02:01:13,760
Speaker 1: of the same basic values I came to vegetarianism with,

2138
02:01:14,320 --> 02:01:17,160
Speaker 1: including I'm going to confront where my food comes from

2139
02:01:17,160 --> 02:01:20,120
Speaker 1: and really be honest about it. So I had known

2140
02:01:20,680 --> 02:01:23,320
Speaker 1: from the get go that if at all possible, I

2141
02:01:23,360 --> 02:01:25,480
Speaker 1: was going to do all the butchering myself. I wasn't

2142
02:01:25,480 --> 02:01:28,480
Speaker 1: going to take it somewhere, you know, have someon else

2143
02:01:28,520 --> 02:01:31,600
Speaker 1: do it. And so in those few days, you know,

2144
02:01:31,680 --> 02:01:33,640
Speaker 1: a couple of days right after this kill, when I

2145
02:01:33,640 --> 02:01:37,200
Speaker 1: was in this altered state, I was also you know,

2146
02:01:37,240 --> 02:01:40,440
Speaker 1: skinning this deer and quartering this deer and butchering this deer.

2147
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:48,000
Speaker 1: And that process of just this is the rhythm of

2148
02:01:48,040 --> 02:01:53,320
Speaker 1: working with a knife and breaking down this animal ended

2149
02:01:53,400 --> 02:01:57,040
Speaker 1: up being really important for me. Like in that process,

2150
02:01:57,360 --> 02:02:02,600
Speaker 1: I realized, this feels like really familiar, even though I've

2151
02:02:02,640 --> 02:02:05,360
Speaker 1: never done it before help my uncle, but it feels

2152
02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:09,640
Speaker 1: appropriate and fitting. It's part of how I relate to

2153
02:02:09,720 --> 02:02:13,200
Speaker 1: this place in this land and how I eat, and

2154
02:02:13,560 --> 02:02:15,800
Speaker 1: it feels sort of ancient and you know, sort of

2155
02:02:15,840 --> 02:02:20,560
Speaker 1: almost cellular memory of doing this. And Okay, even though

2156
02:02:20,600 --> 02:02:25,400
Speaker 1: it was emotionally shocking, this makes sense for me. And

2157
02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:27,400
Speaker 1: I don't I'm not eager to run out like next

2158
02:02:27,400 --> 02:02:30,480
Speaker 1: week and shoot another deer, you know, I'm not, in fact,

2159
02:02:31,040 --> 02:02:35,080
Speaker 1: but by next year I'll probably I'll probably go back

2160
02:02:35,080 --> 02:02:36,920
Speaker 1: out in the field try to do this again. And

2161
02:02:36,920 --> 02:02:38,360
Speaker 1: that's what we're listening to. That and you need to

2162
02:02:38,360 --> 02:02:40,720
Speaker 1: talk about alterstate of consciousness like those are those are

2163
02:02:40,800 --> 02:02:44,240
Speaker 1: next level experiences. I think within our world, it's like

2164
02:02:44,240 --> 02:02:48,000
Speaker 1: a three dimensional, very three dimensional experience. And for me,

2165
02:02:48,040 --> 02:02:50,600
Speaker 1: as somebody who didn't really get that, by the time

2166
02:02:50,640 --> 02:02:53,440
Speaker 1: I was able to consciously able to have an experience

2167
02:02:53,480 --> 02:02:55,520
Speaker 1: like that, or mature enough to have an experience like that,

2168
02:02:55,640 --> 02:02:59,120
Speaker 1: I had experienced so many deaths. I could never get there.

2169
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:01,600
Speaker 1: You know, I've had had a lot of of those

2170
02:03:01,680 --> 02:03:07,560
Speaker 1: same kind of profound moments with far flung places and

2171
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:10,680
Speaker 1: animals I've never seen. But but just confronting the death

2172
02:03:10,680 --> 02:03:13,080
Speaker 1: in that way, I don't I would be I'm unable

2173
02:03:13,120 --> 02:03:15,040
Speaker 1: to do it. I can't do it because I had

2174
02:03:15,080 --> 02:03:18,680
Speaker 1: experienced that. I remember as a kid seeing my dad

2175
02:03:18,720 --> 02:03:22,440
Speaker 1: shooting first year and he is gutting it, and I

2176
02:03:22,480 --> 02:03:25,800
Speaker 1: remember it's testings are still moving and snaking along and

2177
02:03:26,200 --> 02:03:29,920
Speaker 1: like that's burning my psyche um like many other things.

2178
02:03:30,720 --> 02:03:34,120
Speaker 1: But I would never have had. You know, what is

2179
02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:36,520
Speaker 1: almost could be described what maybe you're describing as like

2180
02:03:36,520 --> 02:03:40,880
Speaker 1: a transcendental experience with hunting, and so there again, it's

2181
02:03:40,920 --> 02:03:44,720
Speaker 1: just a relationship to that that you were able to

2182
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:47,520
Speaker 1: come from a vegan standpoint. I think as a kid

2183
02:03:47,720 --> 02:03:50,640
Speaker 1: or even as a younger hunter, if you're waiting three

2184
02:03:50,720 --> 02:03:52,920
Speaker 1: years or something. You're you're more impulsive when you get

2185
02:03:52,920 --> 02:03:55,080
Speaker 1: a chance to do it, rather than more thoughtful, which

2186
02:03:55,080 --> 02:03:59,440
Speaker 1: you were, which maybe came from and my second year

2187
02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:04,040
Speaker 1: of taking a whole stupid that, yeah, like, okay, I

2188
02:04:04,040 --> 02:04:08,520
Speaker 1: won't do that again. I find myself sometimes overconfident. You know, look,

2189
02:04:08,560 --> 02:04:10,680
Speaker 1: well i haven't got a deer this year, I'm going

2190
02:04:10,760 --> 02:04:14,000
Speaker 1: to take the further shot rather than rather than sticking

2191
02:04:14,040 --> 02:04:16,360
Speaker 1: to And so we talked about ethics here a lot,

2192
02:04:16,680 --> 02:04:19,440
Speaker 1: and I find myself my own ethical funk ups and

2193
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:23,400
Speaker 1: things that I probably shouldn't be doing, um, given my

2194
02:04:23,480 --> 02:04:26,640
Speaker 1: experience and my like a little bit of my ego

2195
02:04:26,720 --> 02:04:30,400
Speaker 1: around being a experienced hunter. Um, so I run into that.

2196
02:04:30,440 --> 02:04:32,440
Speaker 1: But I'm listening to your story. I think there's there's

2197
02:04:32,480 --> 02:04:35,920
Speaker 1: a lot of profundity and what that you went through, um,

2198
02:04:35,960 --> 02:04:38,240
Speaker 1: even for me listening to it from from the other

2199
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:40,440
Speaker 1: side of the table. And the experience has changed over

2200
02:04:40,480 --> 02:04:43,280
Speaker 1: the years. I mean it's not like the second time

2201
02:04:43,360 --> 02:04:45,800
Speaker 1: was still like a powerful and the third time was

2202
02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:49,960
Speaker 1: still and it's still a big experience to take a deer,

2203
02:04:50,120 --> 02:04:54,080
Speaker 1: but it doesn't do quite the same thing to my consciousness,

2204
02:04:54,160 --> 02:04:56,520
Speaker 1: Like it doesn't have the seem emotional shock and the

2205
02:04:56,560 --> 02:04:58,480
Speaker 1: same sort of level of grief off like, oh my god,

2206
02:04:58,480 --> 02:05:01,120
Speaker 1: this animal is dead and I'm the instrument of that.

2207
02:05:01,160 --> 02:05:03,520
Speaker 1: I did that. You know, it's not the same. I've

2208
02:05:03,720 --> 02:05:06,480
Speaker 1: integrated into my psyche more so, it's now more I

2209
02:05:06,520 --> 02:05:08,560
Speaker 1: was trying to It was like this like a media

2210
02:05:08,640 --> 02:05:12,040
Speaker 1: or coming in hitting a planet, right experience, even seriously

2211
02:05:12,360 --> 02:05:14,480
Speaker 1: you think of it. It It was like this massive impact

2212
02:05:15,280 --> 02:05:17,760
Speaker 1: And now I was like, no, that that's already part

2213
02:05:17,800 --> 02:05:21,160
Speaker 1: of my psyche, is already integrated, and it's still important

2214
02:05:21,240 --> 02:05:29,040
Speaker 1: and and reverent and powerful experience, but it's not this collision. Yeah.

2215
02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 1: And I have a three year old son and about

2216
02:05:31,560 --> 02:05:33,680
Speaker 1: to have another one here in a month or so,

2217
02:05:34,160 --> 02:05:36,760
Speaker 1: and I think about them when when when you're talking

2218
02:05:37,280 --> 02:05:40,120
Speaker 1: and I was introduced in a in a wonderful way,

2219
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:43,800
Speaker 1: like I have great appreciation for the outdoors via my family,

2220
02:05:43,920 --> 02:05:47,360
Speaker 1: my father, especially now that I'm a father, I think

2221
02:05:47,360 --> 02:05:50,760
Speaker 1: about these concepts and exactly when and how do I

2222
02:05:50,800 --> 02:05:53,160
Speaker 1: explain it. So my son already sees me out elk

2223
02:05:53,200 --> 02:05:55,400
Speaker 1: hunting all the time, and every time we go outside,

2224
02:05:55,400 --> 02:05:57,480
Speaker 1: he's are we gonna see an elk? We were in

2225
02:05:57,520 --> 02:06:01,920
Speaker 1: Maryland this week for holidays. We went outside you here

2226
02:06:01,960 --> 02:06:03,000
Speaker 1: for walking in the woods, and he's like, are we

2227
02:06:03,040 --> 02:06:04,440
Speaker 1: gonna see an elk? Are we gonna hunt elk? Are

2228
02:06:04,440 --> 02:06:09,080
Speaker 1: we make Hamburg? Or something? Nobody were not unforsunated like

2229
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:13,040
Speaker 1: here now there used to be a long long time ago. Uh,

2230
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:16,560
Speaker 1: But I think about that now in the future sense,

2231
02:06:17,040 --> 02:06:19,920
Speaker 1: where where where do I go with him? I'm not

2232
02:06:19,960 --> 02:06:24,440
Speaker 1: going to drop the bombs of of ethics and consumption

2233
02:06:24,520 --> 02:06:27,280
Speaker 1: in our humanity and our ancestral past. I'm not going

2234
02:06:27,320 --> 02:06:30,200
Speaker 1: to drop those bombs on him for quite a while. Um,

2235
02:06:30,240 --> 02:06:32,640
Speaker 1: But I also don't want to forget about him when

2236
02:06:32,960 --> 02:06:35,360
Speaker 1: when that happened. So this is just something something I'm

2237
02:06:35,360 --> 02:06:38,240
Speaker 1: thinking about it. I'm sure, um that you have to

2238
02:06:38,400 --> 02:06:40,960
Speaker 1: about the future of this thing and generationally what we

2239
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:43,840
Speaker 1: do with it. Where where do you land on that?

2240
02:06:44,400 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 1: If you're explaining to someone who has it, is I

2241
02:06:48,080 --> 02:06:50,880
Speaker 1: a young desire to get into this, how do you

2242
02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:52,720
Speaker 1: walk them through it? Or how would you I guess

2243
02:06:52,720 --> 02:06:54,680
Speaker 1: in this case? Yeah, well, I mean I've actually I've

2244
02:06:54,680 --> 02:06:59,040
Speaker 1: started to mentor young guy who's now thirteen, over the

2245
02:06:59,080 --> 02:07:00,640
Speaker 1: past couple of years, start to get him into it.

2246
02:07:00,680 --> 02:07:02,480
Speaker 1: And we haven't gotten him in here yet, but we

2247
02:07:02,520 --> 02:07:07,040
Speaker 1: will soon. Uh and uh, you know, he like he

2248
02:07:07,080 --> 02:07:08,640
Speaker 1: knows about a book and like I think he has

2249
02:07:08,680 --> 02:07:09,920
Speaker 1: a copy and he can read it if he wants,

2250
02:07:09,920 --> 02:07:13,360
Speaker 1: when he's ready, or if he started it. And I'm

2251
02:07:13,400 --> 02:07:16,440
Speaker 1: always open to as in question, you know, to answering

2252
02:07:16,480 --> 02:07:21,000
Speaker 1: his questions. Um, but I'm also not I sort a

2253
02:07:21,000 --> 02:07:23,440
Speaker 1: way for things to come up naturally conversation. You know,

2254
02:07:23,720 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 1: when it's when it's safety and you know, ethics in

2255
02:07:27,240 --> 02:07:30,280
Speaker 1: terms of making a clean shot, then I'm gonna be

2256
02:07:30,400 --> 02:07:33,880
Speaker 1: proactive making sure that we have that conversation, not in

2257
02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:37,080
Speaker 1: some giant philosophical way, but like you know, let's talk

2258
02:07:37,080 --> 02:07:39,120
Speaker 1: about shot angles and let's get this really clear and

2259
02:07:40,000 --> 02:07:44,960
Speaker 1: um do that kind of that kind of technical mentoring

2260
02:07:45,800 --> 02:07:51,000
Speaker 1: and not driving you know, my sort of personal philosophy either,

2261
02:07:51,080 --> 02:07:52,840
Speaker 1: you know, and he'll come out with him, you know,

2262
02:07:52,880 --> 02:07:56,360
Speaker 1: with you'll go through you know, a hunter education class

2263
02:07:56,360 --> 02:07:59,240
Speaker 1: and you know they walk him through a practical course

2264
02:07:59,280 --> 02:08:01,800
Speaker 1: at the end as part of his conservation camp. And

2265
02:08:02,320 --> 02:08:05,120
Speaker 1: there's a different shot opportunities. Would you take this? Why not?

2266
02:08:05,560 --> 02:08:07,600
Speaker 1: You know, there's no necessarily right wrong answer and lots

2267
02:08:07,600 --> 02:08:11,160
Speaker 1: it's a safety issue, but they're walking through this course,

2268
02:08:11,200 --> 02:08:13,280
Speaker 1: and you know, he gets to this one and there's

2269
02:08:13,320 --> 02:08:15,960
Speaker 1: two bears and he said, no, I mean I wouldn't

2270
02:08:15,960 --> 02:08:18,640
Speaker 1: take the shot. To me, ask some you know, the

2271
02:08:18,760 --> 02:08:22,160
Speaker 1: instructor ass and why not, and he says, well, they're together,

2272
02:08:23,080 --> 02:08:25,840
Speaker 1: and like he's recognizing the relationship between the animals. Just

2273
02:08:25,880 --> 02:08:28,160
Speaker 1: like a dough and a and a faun. There's a

2274
02:08:28,160 --> 02:08:30,920
Speaker 1: lot of hunters, including lifel hunters, who won't take They

2275
02:08:30,960 --> 02:08:33,080
Speaker 1: might take a dough, but not if there's a fun there,

2276
02:08:33,280 --> 02:08:36,520
Speaker 1: even though they know the final survive or but there's

2277
02:08:36,520 --> 02:08:41,960
Speaker 1: a relationship. And I think, great, that's you know, yeah, yeah,

2278
02:08:42,000 --> 02:08:44,600
Speaker 1: and then we know we we make these conscious decisions.

2279
02:08:45,240 --> 02:08:48,800
Speaker 1: If for me, I was just recently a situation where

2280
02:08:48,800 --> 02:08:50,840
Speaker 1: they said, well, there's was hunting in Texas. There's an

2281
02:08:50,880 --> 02:08:54,000
Speaker 1: old lady on this ranch. She really wants food. She

2282
02:08:54,000 --> 02:08:55,680
Speaker 1: can't go out and hunt herself. She's kind of the

2283
02:08:55,720 --> 02:08:59,160
Speaker 1: patriarch of this ranch in which we are hunting. And

2284
02:08:59,200 --> 02:09:02,400
Speaker 1: my first thought was my streets first, dear, I see,

2285
02:09:03,200 --> 02:09:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't really care size of deer either. They had

2286
02:09:06,240 --> 02:09:08,440
Speaker 1: to do a deer call anyway, they had to kill

2287
02:09:08,480 --> 02:09:10,840
Speaker 1: a hundred does, and so some of the gloves kind

2288
02:09:10,840 --> 02:09:12,680
Speaker 1: of the ethical gloves come off when you have like, oh,

2289
02:09:12,680 --> 02:09:15,440
Speaker 1: I've reason my way into the first thing. I see,

2290
02:09:15,520 --> 02:09:17,440
Speaker 1: let's go. They're gonna have to kill these deer anyway,

2291
02:09:17,680 --> 02:09:19,400
Speaker 1: and this is going to go to a good cause.

2292
02:09:20,120 --> 02:09:22,240
Speaker 1: I'll be able to deliver a personally deliver this food

2293
02:09:22,280 --> 02:09:25,680
Speaker 1: to this eighty eight year old lady who can't wouldn't

2294
02:09:25,680 --> 02:09:27,840
Speaker 1: move to get it herself. And so I found myself

2295
02:09:27,880 --> 02:09:30,960
Speaker 1: just first though, I saw crack done, took a shot.

2296
02:09:32,000 --> 02:09:36,440
Speaker 1: It worked out fine. But then afterwards, um, it's a

2297
02:09:36,560 --> 02:09:38,920
Speaker 1: it was a one a year old deer that I

2298
02:09:38,960 --> 02:09:42,440
Speaker 1: normally wouldn't shot, have taken back to camp, and some

2299
02:09:42,480 --> 02:09:44,200
Speaker 1: of the guys are cool, that's that's kind of a

2300
02:09:44,200 --> 02:09:47,040
Speaker 1: small one. Um, without knowing the situation, and then I

2301
02:09:47,080 --> 02:09:49,280
Speaker 1: have to explain it away. Just got me thinking about it.

2302
02:09:49,280 --> 02:09:51,200
Speaker 1: I don't feel like it was the wrong thing, but

2303
02:09:51,240 --> 02:09:53,600
Speaker 1: there were just little moments in there where we like to,

2304
02:09:54,160 --> 02:09:56,280
Speaker 1: you know, either take the gloves off or in moments

2305
02:09:56,280 --> 02:09:59,320
Speaker 1: where we can we do. Um. So it's interesting, but

2306
02:09:59,360 --> 02:10:05,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll be doing that for the next thirty years. Yeah,

2307
02:10:06,000 --> 02:10:08,760
Speaker 1: do you think going through going you know, back to

2308
02:10:08,800 --> 02:10:14,240
Speaker 1: your experience from from vegan to hunter, do you think

2309
02:10:14,360 --> 02:10:16,400
Speaker 1: that will become more common. I know we've kind of

2310
02:10:16,440 --> 02:10:21,160
Speaker 1: touched on maybe why it happens and danced around philosophically.

2311
02:10:21,640 --> 02:10:25,680
Speaker 1: Do you feel tangibly that that because veganism is growing,

2312
02:10:26,480 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 1: that there will be some sort of return to bunting

2313
02:10:32,200 --> 02:10:33,880
Speaker 1: like we talked about, I think that, you know, that

2314
02:10:34,000 --> 02:10:37,560
Speaker 1: micro trend of of non hunters as adults skinning and hunting,

2315
02:10:37,560 --> 02:10:41,120
Speaker 1: including some whore x vegetarians x vegans, I mean, that's

2316
02:10:41,120 --> 02:10:44,440
Speaker 1: certainly happening. I've been surprised, like I thought, God, this

2317
02:10:44,440 --> 02:10:46,560
Speaker 1: is kind of weird that becoming a hunter aftering the vegetarian.

2318
02:10:46,960 --> 02:10:48,600
Speaker 1: When I was going through it, I thought this is weird.

2319
02:10:49,880 --> 02:10:52,560
Speaker 1: But over the years I've heard about and met more

2320
02:10:52,600 --> 02:10:55,040
Speaker 1: and more people who have done that. It's like, I mean,

2321
02:10:55,080 --> 02:10:58,360
Speaker 1: it's not so weird. You know, it's not that uncommon.

2322
02:10:59,240 --> 02:11:02,880
Speaker 1: Uh So sure. I mean, if there's a if there's

2323
02:11:02,920 --> 02:11:07,040
Speaker 1: a bit of an uptick in veganism, and then some

2324
02:11:07,080 --> 02:11:10,840
Speaker 1: people are returning to more of an omnivorous diet but

2325
02:11:10,960 --> 02:11:14,360
Speaker 1: bringing those questions and those values back to their to

2326
02:11:14,440 --> 02:11:17,360
Speaker 1: their new diet, I wouldn't be surprised if we see

2327
02:11:17,520 --> 02:11:20,320
Speaker 1: a bit more of that. Looking back on your book now,

2328
02:11:20,400 --> 02:11:23,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's been some seven years or six six

2329
02:11:23,160 --> 02:11:26,000
Speaker 1: and some years since it came out. Um what do

2330
02:11:26,040 --> 02:11:27,760
Speaker 1: you think about that experience? Being able to put that

2331
02:11:27,800 --> 02:11:30,200
Speaker 1: out there and and like you said, talked to a

2332
02:11:30,240 --> 02:11:32,240
Speaker 1: lot of different people and go promoted. I mean, we're

2333
02:11:32,240 --> 02:11:34,800
Speaker 1: way past that point in a book's life cycle. But

2334
02:11:34,880 --> 02:11:37,000
Speaker 1: what what do you think? It was a great experience.

2335
02:11:37,040 --> 02:11:40,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I said I had done some freelance writing,

2336
02:11:40,120 --> 02:11:44,440
Speaker 1: but I've never I've never written a book and was

2337
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:48,520
Speaker 1: not I'm not even sure about the book talk and

2338
02:11:48,840 --> 02:11:52,880
Speaker 1: promotion process. But it stretched me. I mean, it gave

2339
02:11:52,920 --> 02:11:55,440
Speaker 1: me a great experience. I felt like I needed to

2340
02:11:55,480 --> 02:11:58,480
Speaker 1: write that one book. Well, I write another book maybe,

2341
02:11:58,880 --> 02:12:03,000
Speaker 1: but for whatever reason, and that was a story that

2342
02:12:03,080 --> 02:12:05,280
Speaker 1: I needed to find a way for me. It just

2343
02:12:05,320 --> 02:12:09,640
Speaker 1: felt important. I felt called to do that one and

2344
02:12:10,240 --> 02:12:13,879
Speaker 1: to engage in that conversation in a variety of ways online,

2345
02:12:13,880 --> 02:12:19,200
Speaker 1: in person, and and through the book. Um So, I

2346
02:12:19,240 --> 02:12:22,200
Speaker 1: think it was a really valuable experience for me, and

2347
02:12:22,760 --> 02:12:26,600
Speaker 1: it seems to have been welcomed by a wide range

2348
02:12:26,600 --> 02:12:30,160
Speaker 1: of people, hunters and non hunters. So I'm glad to

2349
02:12:30,200 --> 02:12:32,640
Speaker 1: have been able to contribute that. Yeah, and I think

2350
02:12:32,640 --> 02:12:34,560
Speaker 1: it's as I remember, you know, it's been five years

2351
02:12:34,560 --> 02:12:36,800
Speaker 1: now since i've read fully fully through when I was

2352
02:12:36,800 --> 02:12:39,920
Speaker 1: picking up the experts and prep for this, but I

2353
02:12:40,040 --> 02:12:41,360
Speaker 1: found it to be, I think at the time and

2354
02:12:41,400 --> 02:12:45,000
Speaker 1: even now as strangely a modern American story. It's just

2355
02:12:45,240 --> 02:12:48,000
Speaker 1: kind of you don't expect that, you know, not that

2356
02:12:48,000 --> 02:12:51,480
Speaker 1: anybody would would even maybe want that, but but um,

2357
02:12:51,520 --> 02:12:54,960
Speaker 1: in terms of our diet and our choices and now

2358
02:12:55,000 --> 02:12:58,839
Speaker 1: we moved through this world, it's pretty strangely modern American,

2359
02:12:58,920 --> 02:13:01,320
Speaker 1: like we're having to have these thoughts and think through

2360
02:13:01,400 --> 02:13:04,360
Speaker 1: some of this stuff. And I remember being impacted by that,

2361
02:13:04,400 --> 02:13:07,920
Speaker 1: and even now thinking back to it, it is there's

2362
02:13:07,920 --> 02:13:09,640
Speaker 1: some threads in here to what we're all thinking and

2363
02:13:09,680 --> 02:13:11,520
Speaker 1: trying to do. Well. Like anything, it's a product of

2364
02:13:11,560 --> 02:13:14,000
Speaker 1: its times, right, It's a product of what's going on

2365
02:13:14,040 --> 02:13:16,320
Speaker 1: in the culture and society right now. Yeah, seven years

2366
02:13:16,360 --> 02:13:20,800
Speaker 1: feels like I'm feels like forever, but it's still you know,

2367
02:13:21,640 --> 02:13:24,120
Speaker 1: it's not the nineteen fifties, right, still still pretty recent.

2368
02:13:25,520 --> 02:13:29,120
Speaker 1: That's true. That's true. Uh, well, well, thanks for joining me.

2369
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:32,040
Speaker 1: I do appreciate it. I know we we I always

2370
02:13:32,280 --> 02:13:36,440
Speaker 1: jog off into the philosophical very quickly my pleasure in

2371
02:13:36,600 --> 02:13:42,320
Speaker 1: doing it. I think one thing in closing, um, I

2372
02:13:42,360 --> 02:13:46,440
Speaker 1: wanna I'm gonna keep bringing up Game Changes because it's

2373
02:13:46,480 --> 02:13:48,520
Speaker 1: something that, like I said, I was just answering our

2374
02:13:49,000 --> 02:13:51,120
Speaker 1: THHD at the mediator dot com inbox and there's a

2375
02:13:51,120 --> 02:13:54,560
Speaker 1: bunch of people that were asking questions about that documentary.

2376
02:13:55,480 --> 02:13:58,200
Speaker 1: Do you feel like there's a way to take either

2377
02:13:58,360 --> 02:14:02,360
Speaker 1: your story or a story like it and and produce

2378
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:05,960
Speaker 1: something as effective as it seems like Game Changers has been?

2379
02:14:06,240 --> 02:14:08,800
Speaker 1: And telling Game Changes again tells the story of vegan

2380
02:14:08,800 --> 02:14:12,040
Speaker 1: athletes and really goes through to to vegan diet and

2381
02:14:12,160 --> 02:14:15,520
Speaker 1: presents meat as some sort of poisonous alternative to the

2382
02:14:15,640 --> 02:14:19,640
Speaker 1: vegan diet. I wonder I know um our own company,

2383
02:14:19,680 --> 02:14:21,960
Speaker 1: Steve Ronello, made a documentary called Stars in the Sky,

2384
02:14:22,200 --> 02:14:26,400
Speaker 1: but it didn't get the same visibility as Game Changers.

2385
02:14:26,600 --> 02:14:28,960
Speaker 1: Do you feel like that's that's on the horizoner could

2386
02:14:28,960 --> 02:14:31,400
Speaker 1: be done. I don't know if it's I don't know

2387
02:14:31,400 --> 02:14:34,040
Speaker 1: if it's on the horizon, but I think it definitely

2388
02:14:34,280 --> 02:14:37,440
Speaker 1: could be done. I think there's been some places where

2389
02:14:37,440 --> 02:14:41,640
Speaker 1: I've seen examples that relate to that about like environmental

2390
02:14:41,680 --> 02:14:45,760
Speaker 1: education for kids. Uh, there's a great short documentary ALTIVI

2391
02:14:45,840 --> 02:14:49,880
Speaker 1: short documentary called Mother Nature's Child and it ties into

2392
02:14:49,920 --> 02:14:53,120
Speaker 1: like um Last Child in the Woods by Richard Louve

2393
02:14:53,240 --> 02:14:55,080
Speaker 1: and all the sort of environment location you know, Steve

2394
02:14:55,120 --> 02:14:58,600
Speaker 1: Stephen Kellert's work again, all this environment education work, and

2395
02:14:58,600 --> 02:15:02,280
Speaker 1: there's a little sex in there. On hunting. It's just

2396
02:15:02,400 --> 02:15:04,080
Speaker 1: like twelve year old girl who's going out for her

2397
02:15:04,120 --> 02:15:08,840
Speaker 1: first tier hunt. It's it's because the overall film is

2398
02:15:09,400 --> 02:15:13,320
Speaker 1: it's not like this is about you know, meat and hunting.

2399
02:15:14,000 --> 02:15:18,280
Speaker 1: The overall film is about environmental education and getting kids

2400
02:15:18,280 --> 02:15:22,880
Speaker 1: connected to nature. But within that there's a little sectional hunting,

2401
02:15:22,880 --> 02:15:25,280
Speaker 1: and so it's I've seen a few examples like that

2402
02:15:25,840 --> 02:15:32,000
Speaker 1: where it's presented as part of a conversation that reaches

2403
02:15:32,040 --> 02:15:35,200
Speaker 1: an audience that can I think is maybe not thinking

2404
02:15:35,200 --> 02:15:38,520
Speaker 1: about hunting much, but it comes in from an angle

2405
02:15:39,120 --> 02:15:42,440
Speaker 1: that that resonates. And so whether it's about food and

2406
02:15:42,520 --> 02:15:45,600
Speaker 1: local food and sustainable food and ethical food, and hunting

2407
02:15:45,680 --> 02:15:48,400
Speaker 1: is part of that conversation. You know, if it comes

2408
02:15:48,400 --> 02:15:51,400
Speaker 1: in like in blaring neon lights, this is about hunting,

2409
02:15:52,400 --> 02:15:55,680
Speaker 1: that is not necessarily the best way to engage to

2410
02:15:55,720 --> 02:15:58,800
Speaker 1: start the conversation. Yeah, you're talking about a very pragmatic,

2411
02:15:58,880 --> 02:16:01,720
Speaker 1: common sense approach to this is a part of this

2412
02:16:01,760 --> 02:16:04,760
Speaker 1: conversation um, as opposed to this game changers that seems

2413
02:16:04,760 --> 02:16:08,440
Speaker 1: like it's just blasting out one thing UM. And so

2414
02:16:09,280 --> 02:16:10,560
Speaker 1: I think it's a big part of part of the

2415
02:16:10,560 --> 02:16:13,200
Speaker 1: conversation me, especially with this cultural creep that we're experiencing.

2416
02:16:13,240 --> 02:16:15,840
Speaker 1: What is what's the Will there be a galvanizing moment

2417
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:19,440
Speaker 1: where folks that aren't sitting in this room, you know

2418
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:21,440
Speaker 1: a lot of the people in this library probably don't

2419
02:16:21,960 --> 02:16:24,320
Speaker 1: really know much about this conversation. Is there a galvanizing

2420
02:16:24,360 --> 02:16:27,720
Speaker 1: moment that we're that we're headed towards that question? None

2421
02:16:27,760 --> 02:16:31,560
Speaker 1: of us can answer, but it would be nice. Yeah,

2422
02:16:31,960 --> 02:16:35,200
Speaker 1: I think it's It may not be a galvanized moment,

2423
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:37,800
Speaker 1: but over the past like ten fifteen years, it's like

2424
02:16:38,400 --> 02:16:41,440
Speaker 1: started to happen. Yeah. Well, and you've you've been a

2425
02:16:41,520 --> 02:16:43,440
Speaker 1: large part of that with with your book. So you

2426
02:16:43,440 --> 02:16:45,480
Speaker 1: can still go and purchase we act like it's been

2427
02:16:45,959 --> 02:16:50,160
Speaker 1: it's in the annals of Times right somewhere in the archives.

2428
02:16:50,320 --> 02:16:52,040
Speaker 1: You still go to Amazon and purchase The Mind of Corner,

2429
02:16:52,120 --> 02:16:53,879
Speaker 1: where I suggest if you haven't read it you do so.

2430
02:16:54,640 --> 02:16:56,960
Speaker 1: Thank you too, Fary, glad to be here. Thanks Matt, Right,

2431
02:17:00,760 --> 02:17:08,000
Speaker 1: I guess I that is it. That's just all we

2432
02:17:08,080 --> 02:17:13,080
Speaker 1: are done. Wow. I really like the mix up there. Yeah,

2433
02:17:13,440 --> 02:17:15,880
Speaker 1: more like a Ebnezer screw like Christmas type of thing

2434
02:17:15,959 --> 02:17:21,640
Speaker 1: I'm doing. Um hey, a couple of days here, next week,

2435
02:17:21,680 --> 02:17:23,959
Speaker 1: next Monday. This is gonna be the Meat Eater. What

2436
02:17:23,959 --> 02:17:25,800
Speaker 1: do we call it? Filled meat or Christmas Special? I

2437
02:17:25,800 --> 02:17:30,160
Speaker 1: don't think it has a holiday extravaganza extravaganza. I have

2438
02:17:30,240 --> 02:17:32,959
Speaker 1: no idea. I'm sure Karen will will name it something,

2439
02:17:33,360 --> 02:17:36,600
Speaker 1: have something name is something entertaining and unless they kick

2440
02:17:36,680 --> 02:17:40,440
Speaker 1: me off, I'll be on there. I wrote something called

2441
02:17:41,640 --> 02:17:45,240
Speaker 1: let's not spoil it. I'm spoiling it. No, Banner wrote

2442
02:17:45,320 --> 02:17:47,879
Speaker 1: something that you can hear on the Meat Eater Holiday

2443
02:17:47,879 --> 02:17:50,560
Speaker 1: Extravag's gonna read the whole thing. Oh no, that's a

2444
02:17:50,560 --> 02:17:56,960
Speaker 1: horrible idea. Okay, go if you listen the expectations everybody

2445
02:17:56,959 --> 02:18:00,760
Speaker 1: listen to this knows about Meat Eater podcast. Um, but anyway,

2446
02:18:00,879 --> 02:18:03,800
Speaker 1: go over there, listen to the Mediator Holiday Christmas Spectrums.

2447
02:18:04,240 --> 02:18:07,320
Speaker 1: Something fun. It's something clever and Ben did a great

2448
02:18:07,400 --> 02:18:09,000
Speaker 1: job and you're gonna want to hear it. Can I

2449
02:18:09,040 --> 02:18:12,200
Speaker 1: not say what it is. No, don't say what it is. Wow, Phil,

2450
02:18:12,440 --> 02:18:14,080
Speaker 1: Phil starting to get a bit. But now people are

2451
02:18:14,080 --> 02:18:16,360
Speaker 1: going to go over there because they're gonna be curious. Yeah,

2452
02:18:16,400 --> 02:18:19,200
Speaker 1: we should keep talking about it, but go over there

2453
02:18:19,200 --> 02:18:22,160
Speaker 1: and listen to that. That's gonna be cool. Um it

2454
02:18:22,280 --> 02:18:25,200
Speaker 1: was fun. I dressed up like Santa uh in, like

2455
02:18:25,240 --> 02:18:29,879
Speaker 1: a dime store Santa costume. It was terrible. It's terrible embarrassing.

2456
02:18:30,480 --> 02:18:33,720
Speaker 1: So check that out. Also, you know, we don't want

2457
02:18:33,720 --> 02:18:36,879
Speaker 1: we don't talk about much anymore here Phil, the Hunting Collective,

2458
02:18:36,920 --> 02:18:39,920
Speaker 1: this is the season to buy stuff the media dot com.

2459
02:18:40,240 --> 02:18:42,120
Speaker 1: I wanta talk about that too much anymore. We got

2460
02:18:42,200 --> 02:18:45,320
Speaker 1: too caught up with other stuff. But if you go

2461
02:18:45,400 --> 02:18:47,879
Speaker 1: over there and you go to shop, and you go

2462
02:18:47,920 --> 02:18:50,640
Speaker 1: to apparel, and you're gonna see stuff like the Aldo

2463
02:18:50,720 --> 02:18:54,680
Speaker 1: freaking Leopold t shirt. There's some Honey Collective hats still

2464
02:18:54,760 --> 02:18:57,280
Speaker 1: left in stock. There's a Hunting Collective hoodie still left

2465
02:18:57,320 --> 02:19:00,080
Speaker 1: in stock. There's all kinds of stuff there that you

2466
02:19:00,080 --> 02:19:04,120
Speaker 1: can buy th HC related and hopefully we will make

2467
02:19:05,040 --> 02:19:07,520
Speaker 1: make some more as time goes on. And so you know,

2468
02:19:07,560 --> 02:19:09,879
Speaker 1: I found also we used to have we sold out

2469
02:19:09,879 --> 02:19:11,720
Speaker 1: of him, but we used have a pro nuanced anti

2470
02:19:11,760 --> 02:19:13,760
Speaker 1: bullshit T shirt. There's a lot of people out there

2471
02:19:13,800 --> 02:19:18,040
Speaker 1: swiping my T shirt, Phil, Yeah. Some knockoffs. Yeah, a

2472
02:19:18,080 --> 02:19:20,080
Speaker 1: lot of knockoffs out there. So if you if it's

2473
02:19:20,080 --> 02:19:25,760
Speaker 1: not at the mediator dot com, report it to the authorities, right, yes,

2474
02:19:25,920 --> 02:19:29,840
Speaker 1: be a good CITI tell the police, the Internet police.

2475
02:19:30,640 --> 02:19:35,760
Speaker 1: That's people are ripping off my idea because probably nobody's

2476
02:19:35,760 --> 02:19:38,600
Speaker 1: ever thought of that before. I'm real proud of it. Heny. Wait.

2477
02:19:38,800 --> 02:19:39,960
Speaker 1: A lot of stuff for you to do, a lot

2478
02:19:39,959 --> 02:19:41,720
Speaker 1: of stuff for you to buy. But I'm only saying

2479
02:19:41,720 --> 02:19:43,720
Speaker 1: this because I figured you're in the buying mood anyway,

2480
02:19:44,080 --> 02:19:46,760
Speaker 1: and so that's it. That's all I got till you

2481
02:19:46,760 --> 02:19:50,240
Speaker 1: got anything else. No, I don't have anything. Uh. Next

2482
02:19:50,360 --> 02:19:55,760
Speaker 1: week is Christmas, and we were gonna be gone, Yes

2483
02:19:55,920 --> 02:19:58,520
Speaker 1: we will be We're out. We're out of here. So

2484
02:19:58,600 --> 02:20:01,720
Speaker 1: we're giving you the best of th see starting next

2485
02:20:01,760 --> 02:20:05,320
Speaker 1: week for four straight weeks, the best of t So

2486
02:20:05,320 --> 02:20:07,720
Speaker 1: you're gonna love it. A lot of you rode in

2487
02:20:07,760 --> 02:20:09,640
Speaker 1: to tell us what to do. We put together a

2488
02:20:09,680 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 1: lot of episodes for you. The first episode features my

2489
02:20:12,640 --> 02:20:19,120
Speaker 1: favorite characters, and that's Wyman Menzer Dushan Smintana, Charles Rodney.

2490
02:20:19,440 --> 02:20:22,200
Speaker 1: That's the first episode. There's my favorite characters from ninety

2491
02:20:22,240 --> 02:20:26,199
Speaker 1: some episodes of The Hunting Collective. Uh. We have appearances

2492
02:20:26,200 --> 02:20:29,000
Speaker 1: from Steven Ronella learning about Game of Thrones. We got

2493
02:20:29,480 --> 02:20:32,920
Speaker 1: Cameron Haynes doing packed ump talking about The Bachelor. We've

2494
02:20:32,959 --> 02:20:37,879
Speaker 1: got rewind on our trip to Berkeley. We have a

2495
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:40,879
Speaker 1: whole show about bear attacks where guys gets get their

2496
02:20:41,000 --> 02:20:45,040
Speaker 1: sacks ripped open by bears and faces ripped up by bears.

2497
02:20:45,440 --> 02:20:48,359
Speaker 1: We have a whole episode on Legends of the Outdoors

2498
02:20:48,959 --> 02:20:55,720
Speaker 1: Vlarious Geist, his returns, Um, Jim Pozwits, and Colonel Tom Kelly.

2499
02:20:56,000 --> 02:20:58,000
Speaker 1: So lots of that. I very much enjoyed putting that

2500
02:20:58,000 --> 02:21:01,480
Speaker 1: together over the weekend for everybody because I love all

2501
02:21:01,480 --> 02:21:03,400
Speaker 1: those people and I love all those moments and they're

2502
02:21:03,480 --> 02:21:05,960
Speaker 1: very special to me. So enjoy those. For the holidays.

2503
02:21:06,320 --> 02:21:08,880
Speaker 1: We're gonna go celebrate Christmas. I'm gonna have a child.

2504
02:21:08,879 --> 02:21:11,000
Speaker 1: But we'll see you after all that in about a month.

2505
02:21:11,640 --> 02:21:15,160
Speaker 1: Anything else to say, Phil, uh, you know, just just

2506
02:21:15,360 --> 02:21:19,760
Speaker 1: be safe and have fun out there, guys. Yeah, um, yeah,

2507
02:21:19,959 --> 02:21:22,440
Speaker 1: I hope to see you again after the name come

2508
02:21:22,480 --> 02:21:27,160
Speaker 1: back soon. Bye, you know. Because I can't go a

2509
02:21:27,160 --> 02:21:39,800
Speaker 1: week without doing right, oh without right ring out right wrong,

2510
02:21:41,440 --> 02:21:58,440
Speaker 1: drinking in even don't. Sitting at the possible would stop

2511
02:21:58,560 --> 02:22:02,960
Speaker 1: this rohole route. Either lacking all on our parashoes or

2512
02:22:03,200 --> 02:22:05,400
Speaker 1: tell me what is it that I should