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Speaker 1: What lighten my dumpster? First, I'm Robert Evans hosted Behind

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Speaker 1: the Bastards. That little introduction was in honor of my hometown, Portland,

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Speaker 1: which just had a police officer murder a man who

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Speaker 1: is having a mental health crisis. And we'll probably be

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Speaker 1: lighting some dumpsters on fire tonight, although you won't hear

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Speaker 1: it the day that this happens. But anyway, that's all

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Speaker 1: beside the point right now, because the point right now

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Speaker 1: is that I'm introducing our guest today, the inimitable.

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Speaker 2: Matt leeb Baybe. What's going on, Matt? How are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I'm excited to be here. A big

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Speaker 2: fan of the pod. Love me some bastards? And you are?

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Speaker 1: You do a Sopranos podcast and the name is it

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Speaker 1: really pod yourself a gun?

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Speaker 2: That's right podcast? All right? Gun? Yeah, that's my world's

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Speaker 2: only Sopranos podcast. Don't go looking for any other ones,

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Speaker 2: because they do not exist.

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Speaker 1: Little known TV show, the Sopranos. You might have heard

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Speaker 1: of it, very obscure.

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Speaker 2: A niche, a niche TV show that only people who

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Speaker 2: really like art understand. And that's that's why we talk

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Speaker 2: about it. We talk about the art.

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Speaker 1: It's fun thinking about that because I believe the song

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Speaker 1: that introduced that show was something about waking up in

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Speaker 1: the morning and getting yourself a gun, which is what

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Speaker 1: I did this morning.

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Speaker 2: You bought a gun.

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Speaker 1: I did, I did. I did buy a gun this morning.

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Speaker 1: Not for sopranos like uses, although I am Italian, so

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Speaker 1: you can't really know for sure. You can't really know

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Speaker 1: for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you woke up with a blue moon in your

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Speaker 2: eye and you decided, I'm gonna go get.

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Speaker 1: Myself a gun and then I'm gonna commit crimes. And

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Speaker 1: the Pine Barons of New Jersey. Yeah, they do that

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Speaker 1: a lot in the show, right, a lot of Pine

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Speaker 1: Barren crimes.

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Speaker 2: They do it at least once.

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Speaker 1: And it's great, yeah that they're chasing that guy through

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Speaker 1: the yeah, yeah, the Russian Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And they leave their DNA everywhere, well they.

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Speaker 2: Pee everywhere, and you know they look.

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Speaker 1: We Italians are not a subtle people.

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Speaker 4: No.

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Speaker 2: They spend that whole episode literally like dying of like

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Speaker 2: cold and they're lost in the woods, but they spend

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Speaker 2: all the time talking about how they're starving because they

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Speaker 2: haven't eaten in twelve hours. It's the most Italian in

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 1: But I want to hear about this gun. Oh, it's

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Speaker 1: just a gun. But today we have something much more

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Speaker 1: exciting than a gun. We have a bastard and our bastard.

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Speaker 1: Are you ready for this?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I'm so excited.

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Speaker 1: Are you settling in? Yes, doctor z I never introduced

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Speaker 1: them like that. We're talking about doctor fucking Oz today. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that's right.

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Speaker 2: Who the thought he'd be a bastard? A TV doctor?

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Speaker 1: Who the fuck a TV doctor could be a bad man?

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Speaker 2: No, they take an oath TV doctors, they say, do

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Speaker 2: no harm and get good ratings. That's the hippocratic oath

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Speaker 2: they do.

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Speaker 4: They also oath to be bad guest hosts on Jeopardy

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Speaker 4: because he sucked and I didn't enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, if you are going up against LeVar Burton for

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Speaker 1: any job, your first action should be like, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'm bowing out ye immediately, I'm not going to compete

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Speaker 1: with LeVar Burton off fighting Jeordi fighting, Kunta Kinte, fighting whatever.

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Speaker 1: The reading Rainbow guy's name was. No, I think LeVar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, No. I did not watch him on Jeopardy,

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Speaker 2: but I have seen the show and had no idea

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Speaker 2: he was a bastard.

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Speaker 1: Yes, he's a piece of shit. He's he's a different

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Speaker 1: piece of shit. We're also going to be talking in

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Speaker 1: the very near future about doctor Phil, who's a much

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Speaker 1: worse person. Doctor Oz is bad for some reasons that

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Speaker 1: you'll suspect, you know, the pseudo science stuff, but also

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Speaker 1: for some I think more complicated reasons, which will we'll

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Speaker 1: have us a nice talk about at the end of

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Speaker 1: this episode. So I've always said that one of the

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Speaker 1: great tragedies of American public life is that our very

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Speaker 1: best doctors are usually like kind of schlubby dudes and

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Speaker 1: ladies who maybe aren't the best at at social graces

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Speaker 1: and certainly don't have enough time because they're wildly overworked

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Speaker 1: to do TV appearances.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. They're not hot. I've always

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Speaker 2: said is the bottom of they're not hot. I look

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Speaker 2: at them and I'm like, ill, Like.

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Speaker 1: We need to put a couple of billion dollars into

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Speaker 1: a national program for more fuckable doctors.

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Speaker 2: Come on, yes, yes, doctors who fuck that's the next

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Speaker 2: level of healthcare in America. It won't be universal healthcare,

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Speaker 2: but at least doctors will look fuckable.

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Speaker 1: Now, I mean, I think the problem is not their fuckibility,

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Speaker 1: because it's inherently hot to be a doctor. It's more

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're not necessarily if. Even the ones

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Speaker 1: who are have a good bedside manner are good at

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Speaker 1: explaining things, just don't have the time to spend a

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Speaker 1: lot of it on television because they're busy saving lives.

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Speaker 1: This has led to a thriving industry, well documented in

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Speaker 1: this show of grifter health influencers and scam artists selling

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Speaker 1: people poison with honeyed words and practice smiles. Today, though,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about a different kind of medical grifter, kind

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Speaker 1: of a grifter who helps to launder those more shady grifters,

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Speaker 1: the guy people who aren't doctors, people who have no

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Speaker 1: medical training, who are just trying to sell you nonsense cures.

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Speaker 1: The guy we're talking about today exists to give them

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Speaker 1: credibility and launder them into the public consciousness. And his

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Speaker 1: name is Mehmet Oz. Mehmet Oz is maybe the most

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Speaker 1: influential public physician in the country, possibly the world. He is,

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Speaker 1: in every professional sense of the word, an excellent doctor,

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Speaker 1: exceptional even within the bounds of what it is he

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Speaker 1: is trained to do. He may be one of the

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Speaker 1: best in the world at what he does, and he

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Speaker 1: uses his you know, the thing that makes him a

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Speaker 1: bastard is that he uses these exceptional qualifications along with

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Speaker 1: his charisma his handsome face, to sell millions of people

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Speaker 1: on nonsense cures every single year. And that's that's a

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Speaker 1: bad thing to do. He's kind of made worse. We'll

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Speaker 1: talk about this a lot by the fact that he

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Speaker 1: is he's a he's a heart surgeon, and he's an

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Speaker 1: exceptional heart surgeon.

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Speaker 2: That's so sad. It's always sad when like an amazing

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Speaker 2: doctor is a piece of shit. This is like how

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Speaker 2: I felt when Ben Carson turned out to be a

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Speaker 2: Trump guy. He was like, but you're so good.

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Speaker 1: The surgeons which you talk to doctors, they'll be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course, it's always surgeons, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And they're the ones who think they're gods, right, yes,

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Speaker 2: they essentially have a god complex, and they'll be really

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Speaker 2: good at one thing, and then they'll also think that

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Speaker 2: they're good at like yes, politics and shit like that.

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Speaker 1: I think good surgeons are so prone to being also

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Speaker 1: like nonsense, like so many of our nonsense public doctors

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Speaker 1: or surgeons, for the same reason that so many of

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Speaker 1: our terrorists are engineers. There are people who get really

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Speaker 1: good at a specific thing, and it lets them convince

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Speaker 1: themselves that they know what they're talking about in a

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Speaker 1: wider variety of things than they really do.

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Speaker 2: That's great. It just makes me glad that I never,

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Speaker 2: you know, got really proficient in anyone's skill.

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Speaker 1: Never gain skills. I never ever learn how to do things.

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Speaker 2: You'll become too smart for yourself and think that you

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Speaker 2: are God. If no one.

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Speaker 1: Learned to do anything, we would still be living in

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Speaker 1: the mud and eating grubs. And you know what, we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have salesman, or that we would have very little

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Speaker 1: at all. Mimet Senga's Oz was born on June eleventh,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty to parents Sunna and Mustafa Oz, who must

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Speaker 1: have fucked at some point in October of nineteen fifty nine.

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Speaker 1: In order to conceive him. We have to assume his

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Speaker 1: parents fucked in in October.

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Speaker 3: I don't know that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he could be immaculate conception.

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Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, you know possible, I would say right now.

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Speaker 1: The most likely theory is that they fucked sometime in October.

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Speaker 2: Ah, all right.

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Speaker 1: His father, Mustafa had been born in Boskir, a village

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Speaker 1: in southern Turkey. He had grown up poor in the

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Speaker 1: countryside during the Great Depression, and obviously, you know, Great Depression,

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Speaker 1: bad time everywhere, real bad time. If you're like in

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Speaker 1: rural Turkey, you know, you're dealing with a different kind

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Speaker 1: of poverty than even like our grandparents dealt with here.

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Speaker 1: So he had to work himself to the bone in

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Speaker 1: order to make something of himself, in order to get

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Speaker 1: into medical school and distinguish himself enough that he was

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Speaker 1: able to earn scholarships which allowed him to immigrate to

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Speaker 1: the United States as a medical resident in nineteen fifty five.

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Speaker 1: So this is a This is a hard working man

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Speaker 1: and a man who has to struggle, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: guess in ways that are kind of difficult to imagine

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Speaker 1: for most of it's even as difficult as our present

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Speaker 1: times are.

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Speaker 2: He is like a true lift yourself up by your bootstrap,

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Speaker 2: yes kind of guy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Came from the middle of nowhere, rural Turkey and worked

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Speaker 1: himself into becoming a good enough doctor that he got

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Speaker 1: you know, he was able to get over the racism

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Speaker 1: of the fucking nineteen fifties immigration system. That's that's an achievement.

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Speaker 2: Good for him started from the bottom and now he's

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Speaker 2: on TV selling cures.

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Speaker 1: That's his dad, that's that's not men. Yeah, yeah, that's Mustafa.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about his dad and his mom right now.

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Speaker 1: His mom, Suna, came from a much wealthier background. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this is what helped his dad get

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Speaker 1: into the country or not. It may have been. Her

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Speaker 1: father was a successful pharmacist and both sides of her

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Speaker 1: family came from Istanbul. She grew up with a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. As befits his more modest upbringing, Mustapha was

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Speaker 1: an observant traditional Muslim. Soon his family was more moderate

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Speaker 1: and secular. Mehmet and his two sisters grew up split

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Speaker 1: between both approaches to religion. The Oz kids spent their

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Speaker 1: childhood speaking Turkish and English fluently at home, so they

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Speaker 1: grew up in a bilingual house. Mehmet was from a

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Speaker 1: young from a young age, ambitious, starving for success and

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Speaker 1: his father's approval. He was wont to note that he

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Speaker 1: was born in the year of the Rat according to

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Speaker 1: the Chinese zodiac. In one interview, he noted of this quote,

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Speaker 1: you run the maze if you put cheese in that maze.

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Speaker 1: I swear to God, I'll get to it, and I'll

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Speaker 1: get to it really fast. But should I be running

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Speaker 1: after that cheese? Am I in the right maze? All

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Speaker 1: of these questions, which people much greater than I am

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Speaker 1: think through, I put on the back burner as I'm

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Speaker 1: running after that cheese.

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Speaker 2: What the fuck? So that's way too much stock into

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Speaker 2: the year of what animal?

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Speaker 1: The rat?

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Speaker 2: At least he wasn't born into the Year of the Pig.

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Speaker 2: And he's like, well, what you gotta do is you

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Speaker 2: gotta take your snout and put it into the trough

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Speaker 2: of life.

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Speaker 1: And just you shut your face into food as hard

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Speaker 1: as you can.

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Speaker 2: You roll around in the shit, and then you hope

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Speaker 2: that someday you find another piggy to fuck, and then

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Speaker 2: you have little piglets. It's like, look, I was.

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Speaker 1: Born in the Year of the Pig, and that's why

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Speaker 1: it disposed of bodies for the mob.

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Speaker 2: It's just what you do. Well, that's it's a nice

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Speaker 2: take on Year of the Rat.

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Speaker 1: For him, it is it is telling because what he's

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Speaker 1: saying there is like, I don't think about why I'm

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Speaker 1: doing what I'm doing. I just I just strive to

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Speaker 1: achieve things, and I don't think about whether or not

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Speaker 1: they're good or bad. I just I have to achieve.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he just wants that cheese.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he wants that cheese. It's ambition without an analysis,

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Speaker 1: I think, is what you'd call it. And he's he's

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Speaker 1: pretty open about that.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Mustapha his dad, repeatedly told the growing doctor Oz who's

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Speaker 1: not yet a doctor obviously, that when he grown up,

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Speaker 1: when Mustapa had grown up, he hadn't been able to

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Speaker 1: relax for even a second on his road to escaping

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Speaker 1: poverty and establishing himself as a cardiothoracic surgeon. So he's

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Speaker 1: like telling his kid as he grows up, like, you know,

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Speaker 1: like if you want to succeed, you can't relax for

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Speaker 1: even a second. You can't can't take a moment off.

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Speaker 1: You always got to be hustling. And that's how Memet

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Speaker 1: grows up. He's an excellent student, but no amount of

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Speaker 1: success is ever enough for his dad. He later recalled,

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Speaker 1: I'd say I got a ninety three on a test,

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Speaker 1: He'd say, did anyone get better? That was always the question,

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Speaker 1: he asked, cool death, It sounds like.

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Speaker 5: A fun guy would hang, Yeah, I mean this the

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Speaker 5: school I grew up in because of just where we

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Speaker 5: were in North Texas, Like about half of the kids

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Speaker 5: in my school were either from India or from China

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Speaker 5: or Japan, And so you had a lot of kids

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Speaker 5: who would talk that way about their parents, right, and

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Speaker 5: some of them had, especially around our senior year, there

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Speaker 5: were a couple of kids who had to get like

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Speaker 5: taken in by an ambulance because they would just like

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Speaker 5: one in one case easing as a result of stress.

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Speaker 1: Like Jesus good to put this kind of pressure on

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Speaker 1: a kid.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like straight having like nervous breakdowns just from like

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Speaker 2: trying to get good grades. Right, once again, don't get

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Speaker 2: good at anything, it's not worth it.

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Speaker 1: Develop skills.

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Speaker 2: Don't develop skills, You'll get seizures. You're at risk of seizures.

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Speaker 2: You're at risk of your of your dad not loving you.

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Speaker 2: You know, you just gotta love.

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Speaker 1: You no matter what.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Stop caring about your dad, you know, just

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Speaker 2: coast coast.

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Speaker 1: Some dirt, eat some grubs. You'll be fine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, start a Sopranos podcast. That's all you got to.

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Speaker 3: Do, dude, really bringing it back there.

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Speaker 1: So Memet decided to become a doctor when he was

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Speaker 1: just seven years old. He recalls standing in line at

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Speaker 1: an ice cream parlor. Quote, I remember it like yesterday.

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Speaker 1: There was a kid in front of me who was ten.

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Speaker 1: My dad, just to pass the time, said what do

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Speaker 1: you want to be when you grow up? The kid said,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm ten. My father waited until he

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Speaker 1: was out of earshot and said, I never want you

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Speaker 1: to tell me that if I ask you that question,

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Speaker 1: I never want you to tell me you don't know.

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Speaker 1: It's okay if you change your mind, but I never

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Speaker 1: want you to not have a vision of what you

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Speaker 1: want to be.

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Speaker 2: Momet go kill that kid.

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Speaker 1: Kill that kid, fucking cut it.

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Speaker 2: Murder that loser kid, and tell me what you want

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Speaker 2: to do with your life. God damn, that is way

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Speaker 2: too much pressure. Way waits so.

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Speaker 1: Much pressure to put on a kid.

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Speaker 2: And it seems like the kids like that always end

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Speaker 2: up becoming the like going into the career that their

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Speaker 2: father wanted them to do, and then eventually their dad

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Speaker 2: dies and then they're like, oh fuck, I didn't get

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Speaker 2: to do what I wanted to do with my life

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Speaker 2: and now I'm miserable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's a real bummer. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: not just don't put pressure on people. There's plenty of grubs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: By the time Memmett was ready to start school, his

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Speaker 1: father was wealthy enough to pay to send his son

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Speaker 1: to Tower Hill School, a K through twelfth grade private

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Speaker 1: college preparatory school in Wilmington, Delaware.

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Speaker 3: Jesus, that sounds horrible.

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Speaker 1: I know, it sounds like a fucking nightmare.

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Speaker 3: Fancy boy, yeah, sounds uniforms ties.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, probably like your choice during the summer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The fancy boy prep school worked well enough that Mehmet

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Speaker 1: was accepted to Harvard, where he played football and water polo.

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Speaker 1: His grades were, as always exceptional. One of his roommates

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Speaker 1: later recalled he was very competitive. There was never any

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Speaker 1: question that he wasn't going to be a doctor. He

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a fantastic surgeon. So people around him, like,

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Speaker 1: everyone kind of recognizes this kid is brilliant. Everyone recognizes

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Speaker 1: he's got the drive he's going to achieve, you know,

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Speaker 1: so good for him.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like, I just look back now

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Speaker 2: at my own childhood and I'm like, God, damn it.

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Speaker 2: If I can think of one friend where I knew

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Speaker 2: what they wanted to do for a career, I don't

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Speaker 2: think we ever talked about like, what's your career gonna be.

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Speaker 2: No one was like I'm a doctor, you know. It

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Speaker 2: was it was mostly just like, you know, how's your

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Speaker 2: hip hop album working out? And they're like good and

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Speaker 2: they're like cool, and that was the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. I think it was different for me because

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Speaker 1: there was definitely a lot of pressure to have something.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: I went to a public school. Yeah, I didn't go

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Speaker 1: to a private school, but I went to a public

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Speaker 1: school in my early schooling years. Was in a dirt,

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Speaker 1: poor farming town called Isabella, Oklahoma. And the school was

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Speaker 1: as good as it could be in a place like that.

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Speaker 1: Like they paddled us and stuff like. It was not

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Speaker 1: damn not a high end educational.

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Speaker 2: But once I'll do in a public school. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 2: oh damn.

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Speaker 1: They still did that in Oklahoma back in them days. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you got to sign the paddle afterwards too.

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Speaker 2: It's nice.

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Speaker 1: But when I was in i don't know, third grade

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Speaker 1: or so, I moved to Plano, which is a fairly

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Speaker 1: wealthy suburb of Dallas, and the schools, the public schools

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Speaker 1: are very good and there is a lot of drive

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Speaker 1: to achieve, like I said, a lot of like kids

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Speaker 1: who were really motivated by their parents achieve And so

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Speaker 1: you either were kind of planning to be a doctor

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Speaker 1: or you know, something on that level, or you were

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Speaker 1: planning to join the military. Because it was Texas and

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Speaker 1: I was in ROTC, so me and all my friends,

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Speaker 1: I think we all kind of assumed we're all going

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Speaker 1: to join the army, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I went to yeah, public school, you know,

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Speaker 2: in my entire life, and I think most of my

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Speaker 2: friends either wanted to they were either going to go

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Speaker 2: into the army or they were or they wanted to

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Speaker 2: be famous musicians and or athletes.

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Speaker 4: So see, my brother is a doctor and knew he

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Speaker 4: was going to be a doctor from that. He's my

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Speaker 4: older brother too, from the time that he was like seven,

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Speaker 4: so like, and I'm like, la la la, no idea

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Speaker 4: that I'm.

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Speaker 2: Just saying, Like a level of ambition at a very

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Speaker 2: very young age has always been a turn off for

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Speaker 2: me when it comes to like friends, because it's just

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Speaker 2: they always have that like sense where they're trying to

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Speaker 2: get there. You're you're some sort of stepping stone into

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Speaker 2: there what ever their career path is. And I don't

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Speaker 2: like it.

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Speaker 1: So Oz took only one break during his relentless progress

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Speaker 1: through medical school, and that break was to do a

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Speaker 1: compulsory I think it was a one year term of

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Speaker 1: service in the Turkish Army in order to maintain his

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Speaker 1: dual citizenship. Other than that straight onto like becoming a doctor,

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Speaker 1: that's the only kind of break. So I guess that's

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Speaker 1: his gap year is being in the Turkish arty.

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Speaker 2: I'm just gonna take a break, have a gap year

379
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Speaker 2: and join the military of a foreign country.

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00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, helps suppress you know, Kurdish liberatory movements and stuff. Whatever.

381
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, they got to stop trying to have their own thing. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He got a four year degree in biology and then

383
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 1: transferred to the University of Pennsylvania, where he doubled up

384
00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,080
Speaker 1: working on both an MD and an MBA. He succeeded

385
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Speaker 1: in earning both, So that's interesting to me. He gets both.

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Speaker 1: He gets at the same time as he's getting his MD,

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Speaker 1: he also gets a business degree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is very there's a lot of foreshadowing going

389
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Speaker 2: on a shadow.

390
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 1: He earned both obviously with flying colors. He's an incredibly

391
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,920
Speaker 1: intelligent man, right, This isn't just a guy like We'll

392
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:08,800
Speaker 1: talk about doctor Phil later. Doctor Phil I don't think

393
00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,240
Speaker 1: is very smart. He's incredibly good at reading and manipulating people,

394
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,960
Speaker 1: He's not particularly a genius. Meme At Oz is a

395
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,800
Speaker 1: genius like I think almost certainly is an actual genius.

396
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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, at age twenty five, he married

397
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Speaker 1: Lisa Lemole, who was the daughter of a cardiothoracic surgeon

398
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Speaker 1: who worked with his father. They met it like a

399
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Speaker 1: party or something. This relationship gradually opened him up to

400
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Speaker 1: alternative medicine and Eastern mysticism because Lisa's mom was hardcore

401
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 1: into homeopathy, meditation, and other New Age stuff. We'll talk

402
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 1: about that more in a little bit. For the next decade,

403
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:45,120
Speaker 1: in change, doctor Oz's career zoomed forward. He became triple

404
00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,679
Speaker 1: board certified, which I don't know what that means, but

405
00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 1: it sounds impressive. It's at least three boards. It's at

406
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Speaker 1: least three boards. That's three more than I've been certain.

407
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got zero boards under my not a one

408
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 2: fun not.

409
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 1: A single board between the three of us.

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00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,479
Speaker 2: So we really should find a board just to get

411
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Speaker 2: us some certifications, guys.

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Speaker 1: Just to get certified. If you're a board, if you're

413
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,879
Speaker 1: a medical board is a board out there. Well, actually,

414
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,639
Speaker 1: you know what, the State of New Jersey has certified

415
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,359
Speaker 1: me as a reverend doctor, so I'm one board certificate.

416
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 2: I assume that we're out there. Is there a board

417
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,400
Speaker 2: in the Universal Life Church? Because I am a minister

418
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,400
Speaker 2: slash Jedi night, I'm gonna say that counts all right,

419
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Speaker 2: I'm board certified. Can you get me painkillers? You know?

420
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 2: I know a guy.

421
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 1: Sounds legal enough. So he starts working as a heart surgeon.

422
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,600
Speaker 1: And he's very good at being a heart surgeon. And

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Speaker 1: he's not just good at the heart surgery apart, he's

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Speaker 1: good at the science part. Over time, he authors hundreds

425
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,120
Speaker 1: of peer reviewed articles and he's awarded eleven patents. One

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00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 1: of them is for a solution to preserve transplanted organs.

427
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 1: Another is for an aortic valve that can be implanted

428
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Speaker 1: without open heart surgery. Like, he's not just really good

429
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 1: at the mechanics of surgery, he's an ex scientist. Yeah,

430
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,120
Speaker 1: eleven patents is pretty good.

431
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 2: Seriously, one might say he's the Wizard of Oz there.

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Speaker 1: I think I read like six articles with variations of

433
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: that title on the.

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Speaker 2: Guard right, Well, I gotta go.

435
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:20,680
Speaker 1: Then it's just a thing. Journalists can't fucking help themselves.

436
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 2: Anybody you see Oz and you're like, I got a

437
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 2: calm a wizard.

438
00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,840
Speaker 1: Got a columb A wizard. Doctor Oz was hired by

439
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,119
Speaker 1: Columbia Medical School as a teacher, and as you know,

440
00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: he's also working. They've been a hospital. He's working there,

441
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: but he's also teaching, and he very quickly rises to

442
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: the level of full professor and becomes the vice chair

443
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 1: of the cardio of the heart surgery department. Basically at

444
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 1: this point he's in his thirties.

445
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 2: Oh man.

446
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like everything I've read right now on its own

447
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 1: would be a career trajectory. Any doctor in medicine would envy.

448
00:20:55,640 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 1: Like you could die happy with that being your fucking resume.

449
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:01,119
Speaker 1: Like that's a hell of an achievement.

450
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,159
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

451
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety five, a New York Times profile referred

452
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 1: to doctor Oz as quote, probably the most accomplished thirty

453
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 1: five year old cardiothoracic surgeon in the country. He might

454
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:15,960
Speaker 1: be the best at what he does in the entire

455
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 1: United States at this point. I mean, I don't know

456
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: how to measure that, but he's very good.

457
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know any other heart surgeons by name,

458
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: so fuck yeah, I mean he's the guy.

459
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, the article that I found that quote in, however,

460
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 1: gives some hints about what was to come, because that

461
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 1: article was about doctor Oz's increasing experimentation with alternative medicine.

462
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 1: It opens with the story of one of his patients,

463
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 1: a forty nine year old diabetic smoker who suffered a

464
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: critical heart attack. She went under Memet's knife for a

465
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 1: dangerous surgery quote at the invitation of Oz and his patient.

466
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 1: There were two other people on hand in surgical gowns

467
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,119
Speaker 1: and masks, a second year medical student named Sally Smith

468
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,160
Speaker 1: stationed at the patient's feet, and a fifty two year

469
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,680
Speaker 1: old healer named Julie Mox who was standing at the

470
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: patient's head. As volunteers in Oz's cardiac Complimentary Care Center,

471
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: they worked for free through the operation, seldom moving except

472
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: to reposition their hands as Oz requested sutures and clamps

473
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 1: and units of lydacane. Motts called softly to Smith to

474
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: move her hands from the small toe of the patient's

475
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 1: right foot to a point on the soul known as

476
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 1: the bubbling spring. What they were doing, no one else

477
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 1: in the operating room knew how to do, or had

478
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 1: ever seen done during a coronary bypass, or had ever

479
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: thought worth doing, even as an experiment in this ultimate

480
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: theater of scientific medicine. The women were using their hands,

481
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,359
Speaker 1: as kings once did to treat subjects with scropula, and

482
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 1: as Jesus is said to have done, and as shamans

483
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: and mothers and Chinese quigong practitioners still do. They were

484
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: using their hands to run a kind of energy which

485
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: science cannot prove exists into the patient's kidney meridian, which

486
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: also may or may not exist. Of the kidney meridian, Yeah,

487
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: you gotta get that meridian. That's the best part of

488
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 1: the Kidney's the meridian.

489
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: That's the most delicious part of the kidney is the maridian.

490
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 1: Man with fucking on a ritz cracker slice, then I

491
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 1: love me a little little bit. They just want to

492
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: get You want to get like some duck fat or

493
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 1: some butter, and you want to get it sizzling in

494
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,959
Speaker 1: the pan, and you just slap that meridian on for

495
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: like a half a second and it's good to go.

496
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: That's all you fucking which is a little bit of

497
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:17,439
Speaker 1: a little bit of char you know.

498
00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 2: I mean, this all feels like he's going to start

499
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: turning his patients into fois gras, and I'm very excited

500
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 2: for what's to come, this heel turn that he's gonna take.

501
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's that's that's silly. I think that's silly.

502
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 1: But at the other hand, like it's in a hospital.

503
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 1: These people are clearly following sanitation guidelines. They're not getting paid,

504
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,040
Speaker 1: the patient's not getting charged extra, So I don't have

505
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 1: a problem with that.

506
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: And now's the smartest doctor in the world. It's like

507
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,399
Speaker 2: one of those things where you're like, I feel like

508
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: this is wrong, but I don't know enough to dispute it.

509
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: So with my kidney meridian.

510
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: I'm not willing to morally condemn him for that, even

511
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: though I think it's silly, just because like, yeah, yeah,

512
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: what's the fucking harmon seeing you know, And in that case,

513
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: if you're actually doing it in the medical context, you're

514
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 1: guaranteeing everybody's taking proper sanitation procedures. Fucking whatever.

515
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it seems like from what I can tell, that

516
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: sounded non invasive. It's not only yeah, they were just

517
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 2: doing energy work or whenever they were throwing you know,

518
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: crystals and doing fucking pendulums over him.

519
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 1: It falls through the category of it couldn't possibly hurt,

520
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: so why not give it a shot, right, which is

521
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: we'll talk about this more later, but that's kind of

522
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: what they were going for. You know what else can't hurt?

523
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 1: I don't The products and services that support this podcast

524
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: guaranteed to not harm you. In fact, every one of

525
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: the products of ours that you buy extends your life

526
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 1: by exactly forty five minutes, so you know, spend all

527
00:24:51,520 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: your money and gain immortality. We're back. Uh, we're talking

528
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 1: about doctor Oz, who in the mid nineties has started

529
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: some weird alternative medicine stuff. Now he's not the person

530
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: who starts the alternative medicine program at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital,

531
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: which is also like a teaching hospital whatever. It's one

532
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: of those hospitals that they have a medical school with.

533
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: You know how. You know the thing if television has

534
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: taught me accurately, all of the doctors are fucking constantly

535
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: m hm.

536
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,640
Speaker 2: Doctors fucking teach, that's what they doctors, fucking they teach,

537
00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 2: that's all they do. You know, when you're not teaching,

538
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 2: you're fucking. And Columbia Presbyterian was among the most reputable

539
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 2: medical establishments on Planetar It still is as far as

540
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: I'm aware. So this alternate medicine program there is kind

541
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 2: of an odd thing. It was not started at the

542
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: behest of anyone at the top of the school. The

543
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 2: whole thing came about because in nineteen ninety three, a

544
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 2: retired utility executive named Richard Rosenthal gave them three quarters

545
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 2: of a million dollars as a private grant in order

546
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 2: to establish a center to study alternative medicine. Just gifted

547
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: money and just said, do this start a magic doctoring school. Yeah, okay.

548
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: Now, Richard had been motivated by having several close friends

549
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 1: of his get terribly sick in such a way that

550
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 1: doctors told them there was nothing that could be.

551
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 2: Done to help them.

552
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: And his response was to basically throw a bunch of

553
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 1: money into a hole to see if alternative medicine could

554
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 1: come up with solutions. And it's one of those things

555
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,880
Speaker 1: I could make fun of, Like this is almost exactly

556
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: a week after my mom just died of a type

557
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: of cancer that when you get diagnosed with it, pancreatic,

558
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: there's basically nothing they can do, you know. It's even

559
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: like like she went through chemo and it did nothing.

560
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: You know, I get it. You go through something like that. Okay,

561
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: well let's try other shit, you know. Yeah, So I

562
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 1: can't I can't even blame Richard for like it seems

563
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: like he was motivated out of grief to do this.

564
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 2: You know, you can't blame people for trying to try

565
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 2: any other alternative to I mean, you know, something in

566
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,440
Speaker 2: which there is no cure in modern medicine.

567
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 1: I might blame the snake oil salesman. I'm never going

568
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: to blame someone who's like, well, doctors said they can't

569
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: cure me, So I'm going to eat this root. You know,

570
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 1: fuck it, why not go for it? Who gives a

571
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 1: shit like it can't hurt if you're definitely gonna die? Yeah,

572
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: And it is, to be honest, like it is kind

573
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: of within even you could argue within kind of medical

574
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: best practices because one of the things, if like I

575
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: took EMT training years ago, one of the things they

576
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 1: tell you is that you're not supposed to use an

577
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 1: aed you know, like paddles to restart a heart. You're

578
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 1: supposed to use them on an infant. But if an

579
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: infant is in you know, the state where like you

580
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: use them on them because.

581
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 2: They're dead them. Yeah, they're dead.

582
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: You can't make dead worse, So like, why not? So

583
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: I guess like, yeah, you can't. I don't know, can't

584
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: make it worse? Why not see if if something happens.

585
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: I'm not against the basic idea of testing some of

586
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: this shit is what.

587
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 2: The worst thing you're going to get out of that

588
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: is a really cool TikTok video of electrocuting a dead body.

589
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and then you get a fuckload of followers, and

590
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 1: then you start selling brain pills.

591
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: It's a perfect plan.

592
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: Uh So. Yeah, So I can't blame the college for this.

593
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: I can't blame the guy for funding it. It's a

594
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: reasonable thing. Why not?

595
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 2: You know what?

596
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: That's kind of my attitude is why the fuck not?

597
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: And that's more or less what the dean of Faculty

598
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: of Medicine at the college said, like, all right, well,

599
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: we're not paying for it, why not give it a shot?

600
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: That said a lot of medical professionals were really angry

601
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 1: about the idea. Doctor Victor Herbert, a Columbia Medical School

602
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: graduate and a professor of medicine at Mount Sinai and

603
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: a board member of the National Council Against Health Fraud

604
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: publicly lambasted the lecturers brought in by the program as

605
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: con artists and sociopathic liars and knowing the kind of

606
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: people who get into the selling this shit business, I

607
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: don't know if he's wrong about that. A lot of

608
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: these people are fucking sociopaths, you know, he says, quote,

609
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: I am nasty. I call practitioners of fraud, practitioners of fraud.

610
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 1: It's my feeling that the Rosenthal has been promoting fraudulent

611
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: alternatives is genuine, and I get his critiques, you know,

612
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: that is one of the like I can say, on

613
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 1: one hand, what's the harm, but also maybe the harm

614
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: is that people hear this stuff is being done in

615
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: a hospital, so it must help when it doesn't, And

616
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: maybe some of those people do that not the way

617
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: doctor Oz is doing it, where we're going to do

618
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: the normal medical procedure, we'll have this done. Maybe some

619
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: people decide I just want to have the energy work done,

620
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: and then they dropped out of a heart attack because

621
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't replace a valve.

622
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: You know. I'd like to think that even at a

623
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: hospital or research facility with Western medicine, that they still

624
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: peer review and try out different you know, like alternative medicines, right,

625
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, like.

626
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: Some of them, some of them work, some of them work.

627
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: Like there was a time when you know, acupuncture was

628
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 2: seen as kind of like a croc and now it's

629
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 2: like kind of just a standard part of Western medicine.

630
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 2: It's just you know, so.

631
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a lot to be said about even acupuncture.

632
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: You know, I went through a lot of it as

633
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 1: a kid and it did nothing for me. But my

634
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: grandpa swore by it for his Parkinson's and even if

635
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: it was I don't know, you could say it's like

636
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: fucking whatever placebo, but he experienced relief. So I don't care, like, yeah, yeah,

637
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not going to get into like

638
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: it because I don't know. I don't know all of that.

639
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 2: I know.

640
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: It's one of those things where there's a number of

641
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,640
Speaker 1: divergent opinions on actuature. But a number of things that

642
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: were initially considered alternative medicines have been found to have

643
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: medical benefits. Not that that's the norm, but it has

644
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: happened in a history you know, different kind of traditional

645
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: or whatever treatments. So this is very controversial, though, is

646
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: the point I'm making, and a number of people even

647
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: picketed the college when the Rosenthal Center opened. None of

648
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: this dissuaded doctor Oz from participating in it. His explanation

649
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: as to why he embraced alternative medicine was to be

650
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: quite honest, kind of brilliant. He said that his by

651
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: this point vast experience as a real doctor had really

652
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 1: informed him of the limits of medical science. Specifically, he

653
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: said that while he could sew bypass grafts and even

654
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: implant a new heart into someone's chest, he couldn't change

655
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: the habits that had made them sick in the first place,

656
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: nor could he cure the emotional issues that they were

657
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: dealing with. Depression, he pointed out, was a major risk

658
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: factor in heart patient recovery post surgery, and things like meditation. Right,

659
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: that's kind of considered wu new age that can help

660
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: with depression and that can help with healing. And he's

661
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: right about that. That's bad point to make, So he

662
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 1: seemed to insinuate when he was talking to The New

663
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: York Times, why wouldn't a caring physician want to try

664
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: everything possible to improve his patient's odds. He could point

665
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: out that meditation had shown some benefit for heart disease patients.

666
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: Who was to say that other stuff wouldn't work. Doctor

667
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: Oz told The New York Times that he felt ethically

668
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: obliged to experiment in new directions in medicine. The article

669
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: makes it clear that doctor Oz had not let up

670
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: one bit in the workaholic tendencies that he inherited from

671
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 1: his father as well. And I'm going to quote from

672
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: the Times again here, Memet Oz is one of those

673
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: rare beings who seem incapable of sloth. He's doing a

674
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: heart transplant right now, his secretary says on the phone.

675
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: And he's got a double lung transplant waiting, and those

676
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: are in addition to his two regularly scheduled open hearts.

677
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 1: And then at three he's supposed to fly to Boston

678
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: to deliver a lecture. So exceptional is Oz's energy that

679
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: some of his colleagues use him as a benchmark correlating

680
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: their own vitality is a fraction of a full memic unit.

681
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: He runs down lobs, sizes, tennis partner, mentor and department

682
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: chairman doctor Eric A. Rose, who at forty four, is

683
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: one of the top transplant surgeons in the world.

684
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: So I can't tell you how nervous I would be

685
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: going into a lung transplant procedure and then hearing like

686
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: this doctor's got to do a heart after you and

687
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: then got to fly to Boston. I'd be like, do

688
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: you think you could maybe take your time with this bro? Like,

689
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: could I get that? I do?

690
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: It is a matter we'll talk about the ZN two.

691
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: We don't have enough of these guys. It's actually a

692
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: major health problem. How few people there are that can

693
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: do this. Yeah, but it is exhausting everything you read

694
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: about this guy's daily Like, you're just one of those

695
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: people who I think, I kind of get the feeling.

696
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to psychoanalyze someone, but you get the feeling.

697
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 1: He can't be alone, and we still like he has

698
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: to always be moving towards something.

699
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's got his dad in the back of his

700
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: head exactly telling him to murder that kid in the

701
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 2: ice Cream show.

702
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, to kill that fucker kill.

703
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: He doesn't know what he wants to be, just like, Yeah,

704
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: I mean I imagine that would create a bit of a

705
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: problem later in life with stillness.

706
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel for him a little bit of that.

707
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: Sure. Now.

708
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: The article also goes into more detail about how doctor

709
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: Oz's wives fam. Doctor Oz's wife's family piqued his interest

710
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: in alternative medicine. His father in law was one of

711
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: the surgeons on the first heart transplant team in Texas.

712
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: He'd also been nicknamed the rock Doc by Rolling Stone

713
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: for playing music in the oar to relax patients. His

714
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 1: mother in law had developed a special low fat diet

715
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: for her husband's cardiac patients, and this was really before

716
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: it was accepted that low fat diets would be good

717
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: for heart patients. She once refused surgery for her own

718
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: inflamed gallbladder and handled it instead by altering her diet.

719
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: She taught her son in law, doctor Oz, about using

720
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: arnika for sore muscles and herbal tea for stomach aches.

721
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 1: So he gets brought in in part to alternative medicine

722
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: by these people who have a real medical background and

723
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: are doing things that aren't widely accepted but also may help.

724
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: You know, music, I think there's there's some data now

725
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: and how music can help with the curtain aspicts of

726
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: the healing process. Right fat fat mother in law seem

727
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: to be on the cutting edge of that.

728
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: When you send the rock Doc, I got concerned. I

729
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: thought he was going to like replace people's hearts with

730
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: crystals and shit.

731
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, oh no, they all die, but my god,

732
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: their hearts are pretty So this is how memeic gets

733
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 1: introduced to the wide world of quack cures, and it

734
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: makes sense he enters it through largely reasonable ways, alternative

735
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: treatments that have some positive impact on people. That's in it.

736
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: There's extremely reasonable stuff in the article in general, Like

737
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: doctor Oz points out that in nineteen ninety five, American

738
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 1: hospitals had only recently allowed family to stay in the

739
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: hospital with a patient, while in Turkey it was common

740
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: for families to do this, and of course having loved

741
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: ones nearby can help a patient's morale, which can influence

742
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: how well they heal. No one I think today would

743
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: even think to disagree with that. It didn't used to

744
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: be common. It changed. So he's in medicine during a

745
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 1: time when a lot of stuff that like just wasn't

746
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: that is kind of now common sense medicine wasn't, And

747
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: I think that kind of opens his eye to like, well,

748
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: maybe all this other shit works.

749
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe everything in my head is correct. Yeah, only

750
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: getting to him turning into a complete narcissist.

751
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the article kind of veers right from yeah.

752
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: Having loved ones in the room can influence how well

753
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: you heal to doctor Oz's love of energy work, particularly

754
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: his work with a lady named Mottz who believed she

755
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: could sense the energy of heart transplant patients. The Times

756
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: article certainly does not portray this woman in a particularly

757
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 1: positive light. She now has her surgical sea legs under her,

758
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: but the first time Motts observed open heart surgery she

759
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: had a shaky debut. She had been standing at the

760
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: patient's head outside the sterile field, periodically telling Oz what

761
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: changes she was able to sense ind the patient's energy.

762
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 1: The patient was obviously not awake, but probably had some awareness,

763
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: most likely smell and perhaps hearing. Open heart patients are

764
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: often fitted with headphones and provided with tapes to listen to,

765
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: including if they want, Oz's own specially recorded soupie trance

766
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,280
Speaker 1: music for the bypass team. It was quite a novelty

767
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: to hear Mott's report that she was registering the patient's

768
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: moods in her body, various states of fear, anger, or

769
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: satisfaction perceived as roughness in her chest or turbulence in

770
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: her stomach. At one point, seeing that Motts was not

771
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: looking so good herself, Oz asked a burly assistant to

772
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: take her outside for some air. When he returned, he said,

773
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: I'd sense a change in my stomach. It's a tenseness. No,

774
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: it's a growling. No, wait a minute, I'm just hungry.

775
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god. I swear she's like she seemed like

776
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 2: she is just describe having her own feelings and then

777
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: just ascribing them to an open heart.

778
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, But yeah, it's it's one of those things.

779
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly what type of energy work this

780
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: person is doing, because there's a few different kind of

781
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: categories of it.

782
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: Checking the vibes, dude, she's checking the vibes, just making sure,

783
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: you know, the vibe dipstick is filled with oil.

784
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,439
Speaker 1: I should not, if I'm going to be totally fair,

785
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: that riki, which has its origins in Japan, has been

786
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: shown in some early scientific studies to help diminish the

787
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: symptoms of chemotherapy and to significantly alter people's experience of

788
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: physical and emotional pain. And I have some friends who

789
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: swear by it for kind of physical and emotional pain

790
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: in particular.

791
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 2: I don't know what riki is I've heard of it?

792
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:47,760
Speaker 2: Is it like when mister Miagi rubs his hands together

793
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: and then he.

794
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: Kind it's like energy work. I guess, I don't know.

795
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 1: It's not a kind of thing that I particularly believe in,

796
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: and I kind of think in a lot of cases

797
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 1: it's that you have a good relationship with the practitioner

798
00:37:58,160 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: and you trust them, and it can be, you know,

799
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,879
Speaker 1: an emotionally soothing thing, which I don't know. There were

800
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: early studies, scientific studies that showed that it could diminish

801
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: the symptoms of chemotherapy and reduce people's experience of pain. Now,

802
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: further studies were commissioned after these early studies, which starting

803
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,959
Speaker 1: in the early two thousands, were more negative. A number

804
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: of hospitals did, however, add wreki practitioners to their stable

805
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: of available providers, in part as a result of the

806
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: work that doctor Oz in the Center at Columbia was doing.

807
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 1: You can find these people in hospitals now. And it's

808
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 1: worth noting that a number of the positive studies about

809
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: riki and other similar things were conducted by the National

810
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 1: Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine. Their work is problematic,

811
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: to say the least, and I'm going to quote now

812
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: from an analysis of several studies conducted by this organization

813
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: by professor doctor edzard Ernst.

814
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: Quote.

815
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: Three studies suggested that energy medicine had an effect, but

816
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: their authors either applied statistics inappropriately, confounded the effects of

817
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: energy healing by adding unrelated interventions to the experimental condition,

818
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 1: or failed to design or blind equivalent placebo controls. Their

819
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,919
Speaker 1: results are therefore untrustworthy. The two studies that were well

820
00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: designed failed to demonstrate effects from energy and healing. The

821
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: odds of generating a useful result of a clinical trial

822
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,840
Speaker 1: of energy medicine are small. Moreover, what impact would negative

823
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 1: studies have? Scientists will simply say we could have told

824
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 1: you so, and proponents are unlikely to change their mind.

825
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: Proponents may then claim that the negative study must have

826
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: been flawed, or that energy medicine cannot be investigated by

827
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: the tools of science, or they might rely on the NCCAM.

828
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: That organization I talked about funded studies that generated biased

829
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: but apparently positive results. The NCCAM's approach encourages a self

830
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,759
Speaker 1: perpetuating cycle of misinterpreting research and conducting flawed research, which

831
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 1: inevitably generates some studies that erroneously claim positive effects and

832
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: give the false impression that the efficacy of energy medicine

833
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: is still scientifically un resolved.

834
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: Man, we are just veering into anti vaxx territory and

835
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 2: like anti mass territory. People who just they google stuff

836
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: and then they go this article right here says that

837
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 2: mass actually can.

838
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: They can't, they can't analyze. And it's from a government

839
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: science organization. You know, these guys like and here's a

840
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: study that's and it's like, well, okay, but you actually

841
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,320
Speaker 1: look at scientists, you don't have a vested and often

842
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: financial interest in this, and they point out all these

843
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: very obvious flaws in the study. It's worth noting that

844
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: the NCCAM was founded in nineteen ninety eight, three years

845
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 1: after the New York Times article about doctor Oz and

846
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: the Alternative Medicine Center at Columbia was published. Now, doctor

847
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: Oss at this point was not yet on Oprah's show,

848
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: but he had been featured on TV several times for

849
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: his pioneering work with mechanical hearts, as well as his

850
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: embrace of alternative medicine. You can draw a direct line.

851
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if we would have an NCCAM without

852
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,280
Speaker 1: doctor Oz. I don't know, you can't say that for certain,

853
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: but he is someone who, before his embrace of alternative medicine,

854
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: starts to be well known as an exceptional doctor and scientists.

855
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 1: He embraces this stuff. Colombia starts studying this stuff, and

856
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: even though everything they find is pretty inconclusive, the fact

857
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: that it's in an actual hospital lends it legitimacy. This

858
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: organization is started in order to test this stuff. The

859
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: organization is filled with people who already believe in it,

860
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: carrying out tests that are flawed, and it helps prepare

861
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 1: this culture believing too much in this stuff.

862
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it's just like it's a real life

863
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 2: Facebook group, you know. It's just like everyone already believes

864
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 2: in all the stuff and they just keept like just

865
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 2: co signing each other's bullshit.

866
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 1: And it's one of those things like I again, I

867
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: know people who swear by Riki, who gain you know,

868
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 1: emotional benefits from it, who think it helps with you know,

869
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:51,040
Speaker 1: a number of things, including like physical including emotional pain,

870
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 1: and like if you find something that helps you alleviate

871
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: your emotional pain in power to you know, never gonna

872
00:41:58,000 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: hear me say damn against it.

873
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 2: You know, go with God. That's that. That's all great,

874
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 2: But uh, I mean you want to relieve pain, Yeah,

875
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 2: try some morphine though, dog, because that ship oh mark morphine.

876
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 1: There's no downsides to morphine.

877
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 2: No, I can't think of one downside to morphine.

878
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:15,959
Speaker 1: It's a single one.

879
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. It just feels good the whole time, and you

880
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: just need to take more.

881
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 1: My issue is not so much with any particular treatment,

882
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 1: not that not even an issue that people would like.

883
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 1: It's number one. A lot of people will issue actual

884
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: medical treatment in favor of some of this stuff, and

885
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: it's not going to I'm trying to be as fair

886
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: as I can. Really is not going to solve your

887
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: blocked cardiac pathways. You know, it's not going to fix it.

888
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, energy is great, but plavix works wonders.

889
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: You know, this is a lot better. And it's it's

890
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 1: it's more to the point, even more than that, is it.

891
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: It gets us on this this road of increasingly accepting

892
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: and legitimizing things that there's no, there's not a scientific

893
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 1: basis for, and that leads us to shit like let's

894
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:11,439
Speaker 1: drink bleach to cure the coronavirus. Like, you know, it's

895
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: where the roads I have more of a problem with

896
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: than doctor Oz experimenting with an energy worker during a surgery, Like,

897
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: it's where that leads to. And he plays a major

898
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: role in legitimizing that. He's he helps put it, he

899
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 1: helps put our national foot on the gas pedal into

900
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,240
Speaker 1: the post science age.

901
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's a slippery slope to that, you know,

902
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 2: downing that brain octane oil.

903
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: In exactly exactly. So yeah, at this point, though we're

904
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 1: talking still in the mid nineties, everything doctor Oz is

905
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: saying is reasonable from a certain point of view. He's

906
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 1: not claiming that Ricky's going to cure cancer. He's not

907
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: even claiming it's going to cure your heart disease. He's

908
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 1: saying it could help with recovery, and a lot of

909
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: recovery is mental, and he's not you know, it's possible,

910
00:43:58,160 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 1: He's right.

911
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he is not yet a bastard.

912
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: It's certainly not impossible for this kind of stuff to

913
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: have a mental impact which can positively affect recovery. Okay, Yeah,

914
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: so yeah, he's not a bastard. At this point, Nearly

915
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: all of his alternative medical claims were things that you

916
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: could argue were at least to some extent reasonable based

917
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: on the way he framed them. And he was, most importantly,

918
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 1: regardless of whatever kind of woo woo stuff, he got

919
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: into an exceptionally gifted medical Prefecture professional who was performing

920
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: something like two hundred and fifty heart surgeries a year.

921
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: You know, that's two hundred and fifty lives a year extended.

922
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:33,879
Speaker 1: That's great. He's not a bastard yet.

923
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's doing great work so far. Yes, despite the

924
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 2: weird heart stuff. Fine, a little bit of energy, a

925
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 2: little bit of heart surgery. It works out.

926
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: And the thing though, that is I think is happening

927
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: during this period, And I don't know how conscious a

928
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 1: choice this is by doctor Oz. I think it is

929
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: because of the fact that he gets an MBA as well,

930
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 1: and the fact that he's very good at getting pressed,

931
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: very good at getting on TV, at getting in the news.

932
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: I think he he is at this point crafting his

933
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: career to make himself into an ideal candidate for famous

934
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: TV doctor. I think he is building a background that

935
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 1: will allow him to establish his celebrity career later. It

936
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: is not hard to see how a handsome doctor with

937
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: TV experience a new York Times profile talking about alternative

938
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:22,919
Speaker 1: medicine and a seriously impressive resume was going to wind

939
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: up eventually on Oprah Winfrey's radar. He almost built himself

940
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 1: perfectly for that to happen, and he tried in the

941
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,200
Speaker 1: early two thousands, he tried with his wife to start

942
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: a TV show. They like, filmed a pilot episode. It

943
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: didn't really take off, but he succeeds. And I think

944
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: he's pushing and his wife is pushing him to get in.

945
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: She's very much his business partner to develop himself into

946
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: a media personality, and he eventually succeeds in two thousand

947
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 1: and four in getting invited to Oprah Winfrey's show, Now

948
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: Memmet immediately endeared himself to Winfrey's audience with his willingness

949
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: to discuss frank health details in a way that was

950
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: demystifying and humorous. He most famously explained that healthy poops

951
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: tended to be shaped like an S and should hit

952
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: the water like an Olympic diver with very little splash.

953
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,319
Speaker 1: Oprah herself later recalled when he made it okay to

954
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: talk about the shape of a good poop, I knew

955
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 1: he could talk about anything. He always found ways to

956
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,040
Speaker 1: make the human body endlessly fascinating.

957
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: Man. That is uh. I mean, I'm I'm low key

958
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 2: impressed that he impressed Oprah with the doodoo shapes.

959
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:30,359
Speaker 1: It's mom's stuff.

960
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 2: You know.

961
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 1: Moms love poop.

962
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: They love talking about doo's.

963
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: And that's what like Oz does exactly the right things

964
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: to endear himself to like millions of middle class moms,

965
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 1: which is the best market in the It's.

966
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 2: An incredible market.

967
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: You can make all of the money if you can

968
00:46:48,960 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 1: get a few million middle class moms to love you.

969
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah. I worked at this digital uh what do you

970
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 2: call it, like a digital production company, and the most

971
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 2: famous person that we dealt with was a famous Facebook

972
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 2: mom who had millions of followers. And I would watch

973
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 2: her stuff and I was like, this is you know,

974
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 2: maybe the most awful shit I've ever seen is just

975
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 2: a you know, lady in a car yelling at people

976
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 2: about kids and uh. But the she was a famous mom.

977
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 2: I mean, if you can become a famous mom, you

978
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 2: will be one of the most famous people in the country.

979
00:47:23,680 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's it's the power of particularly middle

980
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: class moms can't be exaggerated. Like the cops in the

981
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: Feds were able to fuck over as many people as

982
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: they wanted until they started gaessing moms. The whole country's pissed.

983
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like like, hey, listen, you can do that

984
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: to people of color, but those are moms.

985
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:46,480
Speaker 1: Those are white moms.

986
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 2: Those are white moms. That could be my mother.

987
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what else?

988
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 3: You know, what else did your mom? That's where I

989
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: thought you were going with you?

990
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:06,240
Speaker 1: Now what else is your mother? The products and services

991
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: that support this podcast. We're back.

992
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 3: So we've all disagreed that Matt is very fine. That

993
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 3: was the discussion over the break.

994
00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: You made this one into a two parter, Matt, So

995
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 1: you audience can thank you for two episodes about doctor

996
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: Oz this week.

997
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: All right, or they can blame you.

998
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: And if they blame or blame him, Matt's home address

999
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: is we love to dox our guests.

1000
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 2: Baby.

1001
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: So Oprah had Doctor Oz on her show fifty five

1002
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 1: times over the course of five years. She gave him

1003
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: the nickname America's Doctor, which stuck, and although I'm not

1004
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: saying this in a positive sense, is unfortunately accurate. He's

1005
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: definitely America's Doctor.

1006
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 2: Just appealing to the lowest commons denominator the stupidest human being.

1007
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: Marry doctor and if you look at the health of

1008
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: the average American, you can tell the quality.

1009
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: Of job he's done.

1010
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: More breadboat bread. Well, actually that's the one thing he is.

1011
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: He's actually pretty good about like weight low. Well, I

1012
00:49:17,239 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: don't know, that's still debatable.

1013
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: Stop defend. I'm not going to defend.

1014
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:22,359
Speaker 1: I just love to be fair.

1015
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: You know, I know you too, You're very fair.

1016
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,479
Speaker 1: Look say what you will about Hitler, you will.

1017
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 2: He was a vegetarian, and that's good for the environment.

1018
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 1: The man cared about animal rights. By two thousand and nine,

1019
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 1: it was clear that doctor Oz had more than enough

1020
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 1: star power to justify a shot at his own show.

1021
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: Oprah's production company had little trouble finding a buyer for

1022
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: what was sure to be a blockbuster news series. Her

1023
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: show celebrated the launch of Doctor Oz's show with an

1024
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 1: entire episode dedicated to Doctor Oz, which acted as something

1025
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: of a coming out party for his brand. From a

1026
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: press release on oprah dot com, this is talking about

1027
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 1: the special Doctor Oz episode. Moving personal stories and extraordinary

1028
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 1: surprises are featured throughout the hour as Doctor Oz meets

1029
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 1: viewers who share how his advice saved their lives, from

1030
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 1: those who noticed life threatening diseases their doctors missed to

1031
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: those who lost weight thanks to his diet tips from

1032
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: doctor Oz. Real people step forward to offer their thanks

1033
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: to America's doctor. Plus, it's the reunion that Doctor Oz

1034
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 1: never imagined would happen, as Oprah Show producers tracked down

1035
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 1: a young boy he cared for in the aftermath of

1036
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: Hurricane Katrina and the two reunite for the first time.

1037
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 1: He's like the fucking perfect, perfect guy for this.

1038
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I love that. It's literally sounds like an

1039
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 2: hour long special of people just thanking him, which might

1040
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 2: be the most narcissistic thing I think I've ever heard. Yeah,

1041
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: I mean, like it's one thing for Oprah to do that,

1042
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: because I think America does legitimately owe her thanks for

1043
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: just years of content, you know.

1044
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: But years of mostly dangerous health based content.

1045
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I mean it's awful content. But the

1046
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 2: fact is it's it's quantity over quality in America. And

1047
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: you know, but an hour of just thanking doctor Oz

1048
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 2: and having people come up to him like you save me, fucking.

1049
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: What it's worth noting in terms of his bastardrey that

1050
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: and kind of the acceleration from hey, maybe energy healing

1051
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: works to becoming a monster. The early two thousands of

1052
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: the period in which Oprah becomes aware of a Brazilian

1053
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: healer named John of God who believes he can do

1054
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 1: psychic surgery and like God, yeah.

1055
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh of the of the Brazilian of God's yohl.

1056
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,640
Speaker 1: And on the episode in which she introduces John of

1057
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: God to America, doctor Oz comes on and gives his

1058
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 1: professional opinion that, like, he seems like he's really having

1059
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: an effect on people, and I can't explain it. I

1060
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: don't think medical ex science can explain what this man

1061
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 1: is doing, basically giving a real doctor's opinion that this

1062
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 1: guy's gotta be legit. John of God later turned out

1063
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: to be a mass rapist on these on a scale,

1064
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: hundreds of victims, on a scale almost incomprehensible. We did

1065
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: a two parter on John of God. You can listen

1066
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,759
Speaker 1: to it. It's a fucking nightmare. This guy never gets

1067
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: half the following that he has if it's not for

1068
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: Oprah and doctor Oz.

1069
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 2: So wow, holy shit.

1070
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: Uh it's good shit, good shit. I found a fascinating

1071
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: New York Times article written a few months into doctor

1072
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: Oz's new show. It notes that in transitioning to his

1073
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:34,080
Speaker 1: own series, Doctor Oz had to spice up his act

1074
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: for a daily for a daily daytime audience quote potentially

1075
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: distracted by the tantrums of a toddler or the yelping

1076
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: of a labradoodle. They go on to summarize his early episodes.

1077
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: His show tackles topics is diverse and diversely weighting a

1078
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 1: skin cancer, kitchen burns, sleep eating, and pubic hair loss.

1079
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 1: Returning constantly to the same television mother load, Winfrey profitably

1080
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 1: mined weepy, overweight guests who vow and often fail to

1081
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: get in shape, and it is taken in it star

1082
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: far away from any sort of traditional medical practice. He

1083
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 1: explains that transition as the product of frustration. Too often.

1084
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: He told me he would sit in an office and

1085
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: be telling you stuff too little, too late, that if

1086
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: you'd been able to lose a little weight, or if

1087
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 1: your diabetes had been managed more aggressively, then it would

1088
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,759
Speaker 1: have dramatically altered your destiny, which is now to go

1089
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 1: downstairs and have open heart surgery. With his TV show,

1090
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: he can exhort Americans to end all aspects, to tend

1091
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: to all aspects of their health head to toe before

1092
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: they reach a point of no return, lose weight, go

1093
00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: to Brazil and get sexually assaulted by a con man.

1094
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 2: Oh god, oh wow. You know there's always that point,

1095
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 2: you know, I've listened to your show, and there's always

1096
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 2: that point in the episode where the comedian or the

1097
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 2: guest has no other option but to just say fuck,

1098
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:54,800
Speaker 2: that sucks, dude, there's no other comment, but what Oh

1099
00:53:54,800 --> 00:54:00,160
Speaker 2: that's crazy. But you know, hey, John of God, your

1100
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: os they also sound like great people.

1101
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and it's it's going to get worse, you know,

1102
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: this is kind of the period. One of the things

1103
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: he's just to do in this period is he starts

1104
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: cutting back on his surgical practice and performing fewer surgeries.

1105
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, because he's got to keep up all those TV dates.

1106
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, in order to tell people about John of God,

1107
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: the mass rapist, and in order to tell people about

1108
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, some stuff that's good, right. Telling people

1109
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 1: to eat healthier is a good. America's diet sucks. His

1110
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: diet advice, I think is well, we'll talk about that later.

1111
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: It's also problematic anyway, he's trading objectively useful medical work

1112
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: for being a nonsense doctor. But he's making millions of dollars.

1113
00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in America, that is the ultimate marker of

1114
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 2: doing the right thing.

1115
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's the only thing that tells you whether or

1116
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 1: not you're doing the right thing.

1117
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 2: Is you're making a lot of money, then whatever you're

1118
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 2: doing is the right thing to do. Yeah, it's morally

1119
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 2: correct to make a lot of money.

1120
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, morally righteous, righteous wealth.

1121
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 2: Yes.

1122
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 1: You know what else is righteous, Matt?

1123
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 2: Is it the products and services?

1124
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: No, my man, it's you. Because the episode's over. Part

1125
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,479
Speaker 1: one is over, and we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna

1126
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:21,680
Speaker 1: sail out. But first you've got to plug your pluggables.

1127
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:24,400
Speaker 1: And I just decided to compliment you before were.

1128
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very nice here here, I thought you were

1129
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: just trying to get me to talk about products and services. Well,

1130
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 2: I thank you for having me on. I have a

1131
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,080
Speaker 2: product end or service called pod Yourself a Gun. It's

1132
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 2: a Sopranos podcast and uh uh yeah, if you like

1133
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 2: the Sopranos, or even if you don't, check it out

1134
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: on the you know wherever the podcasts store is.

1135
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: Podcast All right, Well, this is the show that it is,

1136
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 1: and we're done doing the things that we do so

1137
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 1: go out into the world and I don't know, find

1138
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 1: doctor Oz and scream at him. Give'm a good screaming

1139
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 3: M