WEBVTT - Spider-Man 2 vs. Into the Spider-Verse | Movie Death Match 0:00:21.244 --> 0:00:24.604 Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you 0:00:24.645 --> 0:00:27.565 can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in 0:00:27.685 --> 0:00:31.365 just two visits. See any standard two D movie anytime 0:00:31.725 --> 0:00:34.845 with no blackoutdates or restrictions. Sign up now on the 0:00:34.885 --> 0:00:37.284 Regal app or at the link in our description and 0:00:37.445 --> 0:00:46.645 use code film spot twenty six to receive fifteen percent off. 0:00:48.845 --> 0:00:52.724 Welcome listeners to the third installment of movie Deathmatch. Sometimes 0:00:52.724 --> 0:00:56.285 the third entry is Goldfinger, and sometimes it's the Rise 0:00:56.325 --> 0:00:59.124 of Skywalker. We're hoping for the former. My name is 0:00:59.205 --> 0:01:02.165 Chris Clemic, and today my firm but fair cinematic jurisprudence 0:01:02.205 --> 0:01:05.085 shall determine which one of a pair of thematically linked movies, 0:01:05.405 --> 0:01:09.005 each represented by a passionate and highly credentialed advocate, shall 0:01:09.045 --> 0:01:12.565 be preserved in amber like a mosquito from the Cretaceous 0:01:12.804 --> 0:01:16.005 not Jurassic period, and which one shall dissolve into vapor 0:01:16.205 --> 0:01:19.845 like Spider Man's webbing after a period of roughly two hours. 0:01:20.325 --> 0:01:23.565 That's what Tom Hallen's webhead says in Spider Man Homecoming. Anyway, 0:01:23.685 --> 0:01:26.005 maybe one of our experts can tell me how canonical 0:01:26.005 --> 0:01:29.084 that is. Also. I don't know if that varies according 0:01:29.125 --> 0:01:32.805 to whether the webbing originates from organic or mechanical Webshooters. 0:01:36.884 --> 0:01:39.604 Because we're all excited about Spider Man brand new day, 0:01:39.804 --> 0:01:42.925 we're jitting up a rivalry among the two most beloved 0:01:43.005 --> 0:01:46.484 of the many Spider Man movies, Sam Ramies two thousand 0:01:46.485 --> 0:01:50.365 and four Blockbuster Spider Man two. No matter what I do, 0:01:50.365 --> 0:01:51.044 do you love me? 0:01:52.445 --> 0:01:55.085 No matter how hard I try, I love Spider Man. 0:01:55.805 --> 0:01:57.765 It's the ones I love who will always be the 0:01:57.805 --> 0:01:58.484 ones who pay. 0:01:58.925 --> 0:02:01.564 I can't keep thinking a value. I'm getting married. 0:02:02.045 --> 0:02:03.525 I want my life on my own. 0:02:05.125 --> 0:02:07.764 I'm Spider Man no more. 0:02:08.325 --> 0:02:13.045 And Peter Ramsey, Rodney Rothman, and Bob Perisketti's animation credits 0:02:13.045 --> 0:02:16.565 are weird. They're twenty eighteen Oscar Winner into the Spider Verse. 0:02:17.045 --> 0:02:18.685 My name is Males Morales. 0:02:19.605 --> 0:02:21.005 I'm the one and only Spider Man. 0:02:22.245 --> 0:02:24.205 At least this is what I thought. Yeah, you hear 0:02:24.245 --> 0:02:25.805 the super coolina. You all love this. 0:02:29.685 --> 0:02:33.965 You're like, man, that's impossible. How many more Spider people 0:02:34.005 --> 0:02:34.325 are there? 0:02:34.565 --> 0:02:39.725 Hey, fellas, this could literally not get any weirder. It 0:02:39.965 --> 0:02:41.084 can get weirder. 0:02:42.484 --> 0:02:46.484 Okay, Tonight we shall determine for all time which one 0:02:46.525 --> 0:02:51.204 is the most amazing, the most Spectacular, the most Ultimate, 0:02:51.764 --> 0:02:56.965 the most web of the most twenty ninety nine. And 0:02:57.005 --> 0:02:59.484 I know at least one of our passionate and highly 0:02:59.484 --> 0:03:02.804 credential advocates gets what I'm doing here. So let's meet 0:03:02.845 --> 0:03:06.044 them now in this corner and the blue trunks and 0:03:06.085 --> 0:03:09.165 the big glasses representing Spider Man two is a man who, 0:03:09.325 --> 0:03:11.965 sometime during the first Clinton administration, was bitten by a 0:03:12.044 --> 0:03:15.645 radioactive film critic and subsequently learned that with great penmanship 0:03:15.725 --> 0:03:19.204 comes great legibility. He is the longtime editor of Screen 0:03:19.245 --> 0:03:22.245 Crush and the host of Film Spotting SVU. He is 0:03:22.245 --> 0:03:25.084 a man who has repeatedly placed his own gastro intestinal 0:03:25.125 --> 0:03:27.685 and cardiac health on the line to sample movie tie 0:03:27.764 --> 0:03:30.965 in menus at Denny's. He is the author of the 0:03:30.965 --> 0:03:33.804 excellent History Opposable Thumbs, How Ciskel and Ebert Changed the 0:03:33.845 --> 0:03:36.844 Movies Forever, and the imminent History Funny Business, the old 0:03:36.845 --> 0:03:40.605 school wedding Crashers and knocked Up Virgins who changed comedy Forever. 0:03:40.685 --> 0:03:43.045 I have no doubt it too is excellent. Comes out 0:03:43.085 --> 0:03:46.085 October sixth, Most Germaine to Today's About. He is the 0:03:46.125 --> 0:03:49.685 author of Marvel's Spider Man From Amazing to Spectacular, the 0:03:49.765 --> 0:03:54.325 definitive comic art collection. He is Matt Singer. Matt, I 0:03:54.405 --> 0:03:55.485 say unto you. 0:03:55.685 --> 0:03:59.925 Excelsior, excelsior, true believer, thanks for having me. 0:04:00.405 --> 0:04:04.485 I was gonna say thwip when I say also acceptable. 0:04:04.565 --> 0:04:04.765 Yeah. 0:04:04.805 --> 0:04:07.605 Yah, it's a greeting conversation as well. 0:04:07.805 --> 0:04:12.645 Yes, this is an intimate question, Matt, but you're recording. 0:04:12.645 --> 0:04:15.244 This is to let listeners know from an intimate place. 0:04:15.885 --> 0:04:18.844 Have you ever abruptly lost your superpowers while swinging among 0:04:18.925 --> 0:04:21.405 the concrete and steel canyons of New York City. 0:04:21.965 --> 0:04:25.085 Hasn't happened yet, but I'm always on guard that it 0:04:25.125 --> 0:04:27.965 could happen at a moment's notice. I mean, I think 0:04:28.285 --> 0:04:30.925 I'm still waiting for the powers to activate. I guess 0:04:30.925 --> 0:04:34.245 that's the important first step that hasn't happened for me yet, 0:04:34.325 --> 0:04:38.325 But you know, someday, maybe someday. I do recall one 0:04:38.404 --> 0:04:41.284 time I was My wife is a public school teacher 0:04:41.325 --> 0:04:44.005 here in New York City. This is now many years ago. 0:04:44.325 --> 0:04:46.964 She was a young teacher, and I was a less 0:04:47.085 --> 0:04:51.245 old and haggard nerd, and I was like a chaperone 0:04:51.284 --> 0:04:53.525 on a school trip with her, and one of her 0:04:53.565 --> 0:04:56.565 kids looked at me and said you look like Peter Parker, 0:04:56.844 --> 0:04:59.205 and I said, thank you so much. That's the greatest 0:04:59.245 --> 0:05:00.925 compliment I've ever been given. 0:05:01.365 --> 0:05:01.645 Wow. 0:05:02.404 --> 0:05:05.005 Yes, that was the moment I peaked, was being compared 0:05:05.045 --> 0:05:08.965 to the nerdy pre superhero version, and it's all been 0:05:08.964 --> 0:05:10.565 downhill from that point. 0:05:10.605 --> 0:05:14.445 Basically, well, we can agree it's your wife, then that's 0:05:14.485 --> 0:05:17.565 the true superhero, right. I'm the public school teacher doing 0:05:17.565 --> 0:05:21.364 the lord's work. Welcome Matt and in this corner in 0:05:21.404 --> 0:05:24.325 the red trunks and the curly hair, representing the twenty 0:05:24.365 --> 0:05:27.485 eighteen hit, though it was even more embraced by critics 0:05:27.485 --> 0:05:29.565 than audiences, which is just one of the ways this 0:05:29.645 --> 0:05:32.925 animated movie was unlike any superhero film that had come before. 0:05:33.404 --> 0:05:36.125 The film is spider Man into the Spider Verse, and 0:05:36.165 --> 0:05:38.604 It's champion is my frequent Pop Culture Happy Hour co 0:05:38.725 --> 0:05:42.645 panelist Daisy Rosario. Daisy is Senior Supervising Producer of Audio 0:05:42.645 --> 0:05:44.964 at Slate. She has been a featured storyteller on the 0:05:45.005 --> 0:05:47.165 Moth Radio Hour. She once told me two thousand and 0:05:47.205 --> 0:05:49.565 one A Space Odyssey is her favorite movie, which speaks 0:05:49.565 --> 0:05:50.364 to her taste. 0:05:50.605 --> 0:05:54.085 Welcome Daisy, Hey, thanks for having me, Chris, I am 0:05:54.165 --> 0:05:56.645 excited for a reason. To talk about this movie. 0:05:57.485 --> 0:05:59.885 I want to ask you an intimate question too. Please, 0:06:00.085 --> 0:06:02.005 have you ever attempted the shoulder touch? 0:06:04.125 --> 0:06:06.565 I mean I think I have, actually, and I just 0:06:06.565 --> 0:06:09.404 didn't realize that it was called that. You know, I 0:06:09.445 --> 0:06:11.005 was just trying to be smooth in general. 0:06:11.205 --> 0:06:13.125 Are you willing to share with us what the result was? 0:06:14.284 --> 0:06:14.804 Not good? 0:06:15.005 --> 0:06:15.445 Not good? 0:06:17.005 --> 0:06:20.485 Your Letterbox four Daisy is the previously mentioned two thousand 0:06:20.525 --> 0:06:22.765 and one A space so far, so good. Odyssey's are 0:06:22.885 --> 0:06:26.164 very hot right now? Then Paddington too. I am nodding 0:06:26.284 --> 0:06:29.924 vigorously my agreement. And then like the Mark Web Andrew 0:06:29.964 --> 0:06:32.445 Garfield Amazing Spider Man saga, it just it just stops 0:06:32.485 --> 0:06:33.245 after two movies? 0:06:33.245 --> 0:06:33.604 What's it? 0:06:33.685 --> 0:06:33.805 Just? 0:06:33.964 --> 0:06:38.284 Really does? I just get overwhelmed by user interfaces, is 0:06:38.325 --> 0:06:41.725 really the problem? Like I get excited about something like Letterbox, 0:06:42.045 --> 0:06:43.845 and I get like, oh, I'm going to rank all 0:06:43.844 --> 0:06:47.404 of these things, and then it's more clicks than I realize, 0:06:47.525 --> 0:06:50.284 and I just peter off. So I end up reading 0:06:50.284 --> 0:06:52.445 a lot more of it and clicking through and checking 0:06:52.485 --> 0:06:55.005 out other people's lists. But to actually go in and 0:06:55.365 --> 0:06:57.245 type these things up, I just shut down. 0:06:58.125 --> 0:06:59.885 Well, don't say you're peter off because I feel like 0:06:59.885 --> 0:07:02.725 you're you're seeing a point to Matt, then if you uh, 0:07:03.205 --> 0:07:05.604 all right, well you're you're open to having two more 0:07:06.125 --> 0:07:08.724 you know, slots filled on your letterbox top four. I 0:07:08.805 --> 0:07:10.725 just want to say to you, that's a knock. 0:07:10.845 --> 0:07:13.205 That's a knock, sure, And Jim Katta that. 0:07:13.085 --> 0:07:14.005 Would be the other. 0:07:15.445 --> 0:07:17.005 Gymnastic skills, karate kills. 0:07:17.165 --> 0:07:20.525 That's close to the skill of gymnastics and the kill 0:07:20.605 --> 0:07:20.925 of care. 0:07:21.445 --> 0:07:21.765 Thank you. 0:07:22.285 --> 0:07:23.285 That makes Jim Kata. 0:07:25.405 --> 0:07:27.725 How is your relationship to Flash Thompson these days, Matt? 0:07:27.805 --> 0:07:29.564 Is he stopped bullying you now that you're a husband 0:07:29.565 --> 0:07:30.845 and father in your forties or. 0:07:31.005 --> 0:07:33.965 The amazing thing is I haven't been inside a school 0:07:34.005 --> 0:07:36.364 in years, and yet he still keeps finding lockers to 0:07:36.445 --> 0:07:38.285 shove me. And I don't know where he comes up 0:07:38.325 --> 0:07:40.125 with these things, but you know, I. 0:07:40.445 --> 0:07:43.085 Feel like you should remove them from your home, Eugene. 0:07:43.085 --> 0:07:45.645 One of these days, Eugene is gonna run out of 0:07:45.645 --> 0:07:48.405 lockers to shove me inside. 0:07:49.085 --> 0:07:49.405 Daisy. 0:07:49.445 --> 0:07:51.645 I was so glad you were willing and available to 0:07:51.685 --> 0:07:53.605 do this, because the movies we seem to end up 0:07:53.645 --> 0:07:57.085 discussing on PhH together run More to the Fast and 0:07:57.165 --> 0:08:00.165 Furious Presents, Hops and Shaw that's true. 0:08:00.285 --> 0:08:04.565 We get action movies Deadpool two, that was a time. 0:08:04.805 --> 0:08:09.365 That was a movie. We did dissect one other unconventional 0:08:09.485 --> 0:08:11.965 entry into a franchise that started in the early sixties, 0:08:12.005 --> 0:08:15.165 the James Bond finale No Time to Die, the one 0:08:15.165 --> 0:08:18.485 where he does eventually find the time. So it makes 0:08:18.485 --> 0:08:22.965 sense that you are here discussing the movie where Spider Man, 0:08:23.045 --> 0:08:25.445 or at least a Spider Man, ends up meeting a 0:08:25.485 --> 0:08:28.325 noble end saving New York City. I think I can 0:08:28.325 --> 0:08:31.005 say with confidence that Spider Man two and Into the 0:08:31.005 --> 0:08:33.765 Spider Verse are certainly the best movies you and I 0:08:33.805 --> 0:08:36.565 have ever had the opportunity to talk about on a podcast. 0:08:37.085 --> 0:08:39.485 I mean, they're both great. I'm excited about this in 0:08:39.485 --> 0:08:42.605 part because, probably until Into the Spider Verse, Spider Man 0:08:42.645 --> 0:08:46.085 two was my absolute favorite Spider Man movie. So you know, 0:08:46.445 --> 0:08:48.965 I've got affection for both. But I'm proud to represent. 0:08:49.445 --> 0:08:52.925 Yes, we look for the hard choices, the questions no 0:08:52.965 --> 0:08:56.085 one else dare ask, because Matt has a whole book 0:08:56.245 --> 0:08:58.045 about Spider Man art, so some ione I want to 0:08:58.045 --> 0:09:01.125 ask you, Daisy, how did your relationship with this character begin? 0:09:01.525 --> 0:09:04.285 I mean after he descended on a line of webbing 0:09:04.325 --> 0:09:06.605 in an alley one night and you've lifted his mask up, 0:09:06.684 --> 0:09:07.365 and you know. 0:09:07.525 --> 0:09:10.805 Yeah, I don't think he could grow up being a 0:09:10.845 --> 0:09:14.525 millennial without knowing about Spider Man. And then also, I 0:09:14.605 --> 0:09:16.645 am a native New Yorker. You may have noticed when 0:09:16.645 --> 0:09:19.845 the Knicks recently won Nick Time five that people were 0:09:19.845 --> 0:09:22.245 just dressed like Spider Man all over the city, Like 0:09:22.325 --> 0:09:25.125 you really has been such a huge part of the 0:09:25.205 --> 0:09:28.165 identity of the city, at least in my lifetime. And 0:09:28.205 --> 0:09:30.765 then when the Raymy Spider Man movie started coming out, 0:09:30.765 --> 0:09:34.605 it really was like just I was the right age 0:09:34.645 --> 0:09:38.765 to be super enthusiastic about where this idea of superhero 0:09:38.845 --> 0:09:42.285 movies was going to be going. I was finishing up 0:09:42.405 --> 0:09:44.605 time at NYU, where I was, you know, attempting a 0:09:44.605 --> 0:09:48.245 film degree as part of my time there, and I 0:09:48.445 --> 0:09:51.324 would actually end up reading more Spider Man after that 0:09:51.405 --> 0:09:54.165 period of time. I certainly don't have the history of 0:09:54.285 --> 0:09:56.925 the comics the way that Matt is going to, but 0:09:57.005 --> 0:09:59.125 I do have, you know, some eras that I really 0:09:59.285 --> 0:10:03.325 enjoy and got to know, So I really just have 0:10:03.645 --> 0:10:07.965 real affection for the character and have always appreciated as well, 0:10:08.045 --> 0:10:10.845 like you know, as much as I love comics in general, 0:10:10.965 --> 0:10:15.045 like these aspects of Spider Man, and how the realness 0:10:15.085 --> 0:10:18.045 of like Marvel in New York versus DC being in 0:10:18.125 --> 0:10:22.365 like fictionalized cities. Yeah, Spider Man, of all of the characters, 0:10:22.445 --> 0:10:25.045 really is the most special to me in that way. 0:10:25.725 --> 0:10:28.405 I have a big, big problem with the apparently canonical 0:10:28.445 --> 0:10:31.285 idea that Gotham City and Metropolis are like across a 0:10:31.405 --> 0:10:32.005 bay from. 0:10:31.885 --> 0:10:32.325 Oh my god. 0:10:32.325 --> 0:10:33.804 They can't stop thinking about this. 0:10:33.925 --> 0:10:36.205 Yeah, Like I mean I just always I was like, 0:10:36.245 --> 0:10:39.405 Gotham is New York, Metropolis is Chicago, Like they can't 0:10:39.445 --> 0:10:40.925 be close to one another, right. 0:10:40.885 --> 0:10:42.765 Yeah, all of a sudden and the right there, Like 0:10:42.845 --> 0:10:46.245 I hate crazy short distance that makes no sense and 0:10:46.325 --> 0:10:47.765 all it is deeply confusing. 0:10:48.005 --> 0:10:51.765 Matt, do you remember your first individual Spider Man periodical 0:10:51.885 --> 0:10:53.405 and which number? 0:10:53.725 --> 0:10:55.925 I would have to look up the number? I mean, 0:10:56.045 --> 0:11:00.405 my obsession with the character predated being able to read. Also, 0:11:00.804 --> 0:11:03.605 like for me, it began with his appearances on the 0:11:03.645 --> 0:11:08.684 Electra Company. That was the thing that first captured my imagination. 0:11:08.925 --> 0:11:12.045 Ironic because then I grew up and turned into this 0:11:12.205 --> 0:11:15.925 very Peter Parker esque figure, minus the intelligence and the 0:11:15.965 --> 0:11:20.245 superpowers and the heroism, the bravery, all those sorts of things. 0:11:20.445 --> 0:11:21.445 How's your back though? 0:11:22.205 --> 0:11:24.365 It hurts real bad, So I guess you're right. I 0:11:24.445 --> 0:11:28.165 have that one too. So I've got two things, glasses 0:11:28.325 --> 0:11:29.484 and a bad back. 0:11:29.564 --> 0:11:32.444 Lucrative sideline selling photographs of yourself. 0:11:32.405 --> 0:11:34.405 You haven't. Nobody wants them. I keep putting them out there, 0:11:34.405 --> 0:11:38.205 but nobody's buying them. Nobody's buying them. So for me, 0:11:38.285 --> 0:11:40.205 it was really I don't know. It's like, it's interesting 0:11:40.245 --> 0:11:42.525 to try to figure out what does like a two 0:11:42.564 --> 0:11:45.205 year old, and I've seen it with my own kids. 0:11:45.885 --> 0:11:49.085 Why do like children just spark to some of these characters, 0:11:49.285 --> 0:11:52.045 don't I couldn't explain it then, I can't explain it now. 0:11:52.125 --> 0:11:54.844 But I was absolutely obsessed with Spider Man as a 0:11:54.845 --> 0:11:57.725 little kid. My parents I don't remember this, but my 0:11:57.804 --> 0:12:02.765 parents swear that one of my first words after like Mama, Dad, Dad, 0:12:02.845 --> 0:12:05.525 was memo, which was Spider Man. That was how I 0:12:05.605 --> 0:12:09.325 referred to Spider Man. That's how early it was. And 0:12:09.365 --> 0:12:11.245 then yeah, I would once I got a little older, 0:12:11.285 --> 0:12:14.685 I would. Anytime my mother would need to bring me somewhere, 0:12:14.845 --> 0:12:16.365 the only thing she would have to do is like, 0:12:16.445 --> 0:12:18.804 if you're good, I'll buy you a comic book. And 0:12:19.045 --> 0:12:20.804 that was the way to get me to behave at 0:12:20.804 --> 0:12:23.845 the grocery store or on errands anywhere we would go. 0:12:24.205 --> 0:12:27.045 And there's a couple that I really vividly remember. There's 0:12:27.085 --> 0:12:29.365 one issue that I was just looking up recently, and 0:12:29.445 --> 0:12:31.965 I do not remember the number, but it's an issue 0:12:32.005 --> 0:12:35.845 of Spectacular Spider Man, and the cover of it it's 0:12:35.885 --> 0:12:41.085 like Undead Spider Man and Gwen Stacy like zombified, like 0:12:41.285 --> 0:12:45.245 rising out of a grave, and the tagline on the 0:12:45.285 --> 0:12:49.325 cover is Night of the Living Ned, meaning Ned Leads, 0:12:49.365 --> 0:12:53.405 the supporting Spider Man character who was dead at the 0:12:53.485 --> 0:12:56.925 time I may still be dead, although he's also the 0:12:57.005 --> 0:12:59.925 character played in the new movies like the Best Buddy 0:13:00.005 --> 0:13:02.685 is Ned, so he's you know, no one's ever dead 0:13:02.845 --> 0:13:05.084 or alive. I guess at this point in comics they 0:13:05.085 --> 0:13:09.005 exist in both places at once. It's a Schrodinger Spider 0:13:09.325 --> 0:13:12.925 kind of situation or something. But in any event, that issue, 0:13:12.965 --> 0:13:15.725 I had no idea who Ned Leads was, and I 0:13:15.885 --> 0:13:18.685 didn't get the Night of the Living Dead pun. I 0:13:18.804 --> 0:13:22.045 just thought, this is the most exciting thing and terrifying 0:13:22.045 --> 0:13:23.565 thing I've ever seen, and I have to read it. 0:13:23.605 --> 0:13:27.005 And that's the first one I really remember owning and 0:13:27.085 --> 0:13:29.325 like reading and rereading and trying to make sense of it. 0:13:29.365 --> 0:13:30.804 And if you go and read it now, it's like, 0:13:31.085 --> 0:13:33.365 how could like a I don't know, five six year 0:13:33.405 --> 0:13:35.324 old read this. It wouldn't have made any sense to me, 0:13:35.405 --> 0:13:37.245 but I didn't really care. I was just like so 0:13:37.445 --> 0:13:38.165 taken with it. 0:13:38.445 --> 0:13:40.765 Well, I want to thank you both for being really 0:13:40.804 --> 0:13:43.405 the first two to help us truly stress test this 0:13:43.485 --> 0:13:46.565 movie deathmatch concept, because our prior to episodes, we did 0:13:46.684 --> 0:13:50.525 two Spielberg movies made five years apart, two Nolan movies 0:13:50.564 --> 0:13:54.564 made four years apart. And now we're really getting into 0:13:54.684 --> 0:13:58.564 a like are we even comparing apples to apples here? 0:13:58.645 --> 0:14:00.445 You know, we have an animated film and a live 0:14:00.485 --> 0:14:04.725 action film Sam Raimie versus. I guess I'm gonna ascribe 0:14:04.765 --> 0:14:08.804 Spider Verse predominantly to Phil Lord and Chris Miller. Phil 0:14:08.845 --> 0:14:11.285 Lord has a writing credit on it. I think Miller 0:14:11.365 --> 0:14:14.045 just has a producing credit. You know, these guys are 0:14:14.445 --> 0:14:17.045 not quite a full generation, but significantly younger than RAMI. 0:14:17.205 --> 0:14:20.245 You know, their sensibility is totally different. So this is 0:14:20.285 --> 0:14:24.365 where it gets complicated. So thank you. Let's get into it. 0:14:24.405 --> 0:14:27.285 So comic book movies had not yet taken over Hollywood 0:14:27.325 --> 0:14:29.645 when Sam Raimi Spider Man became the biggest hit of 0:14:29.645 --> 0:14:32.245 two thousand and two. Batman was in limbo after two 0:14:32.365 --> 0:14:36.845 Nipples and Codpiece forward Joel Schumacher installments, the Tim Burton 0:14:36.965 --> 0:14:40.565 Superman had collapsed on the Marvel side, We'd had two 0:14:40.845 --> 0:14:43.645 good Blade movies, Brian Singers, X Men had been a 0:14:43.645 --> 0:14:46.485 big hit, and then in the summer between the first two, 0:14:46.605 --> 0:14:50.885 Raymi Spider's Angle's Hulk comes along and sort of confounds 0:14:50.925 --> 0:14:53.085 audiences by trying some of the same sort of split 0:14:53.125 --> 0:14:56.805 screen editing techniques evocative of the way comic book panels 0:14:56.805 --> 0:14:59.445 are laid out on a page that wouldn't really be 0:14:59.565 --> 0:15:05.205 pulled off successfully until Spider Verse about fifteen years after that. 0:15:05.445 --> 0:15:08.325 So we had spent all this time starting I guess 0:15:08.405 --> 0:15:11.605 with the first Donner Superman in seventy eight, trying to 0:15:12.405 --> 0:15:16.485 achieve the dream of photo realism of a superpowered being. 0:15:16.525 --> 0:15:19.365 And I feel like Spider Verse is the moment where 0:15:19.485 --> 0:15:23.805 we're we're deep enough into this genre that superheroes cinema 0:15:23.845 --> 0:15:26.045 is just going to yank the wheel back in the 0:15:26.125 --> 0:15:28.485 other direction. You know, we're going to embrace the graphic, 0:15:28.605 --> 0:15:33.005 abstract visual language. We're gonna have on screen text boxes 0:15:33.085 --> 0:15:36.725 and on a monopoetic and that spelled behind me in 0:15:36.845 --> 0:15:39.085 vivid letters, So thank you for that, Lord and Miller. 0:15:39.565 --> 0:15:42.085 But attempts to even like sort of replicate on screen 0:15:42.205 --> 0:15:45.725 the sort of limitations of the four color printing process 0:15:45.845 --> 0:15:48.925 of the early Marvel comics, where you see individual dots, 0:15:49.005 --> 0:15:52.125 you know, sometimes instead of solid color. So it's this 0:15:52.365 --> 0:15:54.845 paradox in Spider Verse where it's one of the most 0:15:54.925 --> 0:15:58.405 vibrant films ever made, and yet we're trying to recreate 0:15:59.085 --> 0:16:03.685 visual techniques that resulted from the limitations of printing forty 0:16:03.765 --> 0:16:08.125 years earlier. So that's just an expression of the difficulty 0:16:08.165 --> 0:16:11.925 of our challenge tonight, Spider Man two into the Spider Verse. 0:16:12.085 --> 0:16:15.925 Both amazing, both spectacular, both web of et cetera. Which 0:16:16.005 --> 0:16:18.805 is greater, which shall endure once the ritual of justice 0:16:18.845 --> 0:16:22.485 by verbal combat we perform here today is complete. Those 0:16:22.645 --> 0:16:26.365 are the stakes. That's why this is a movie death match. 0:16:29.325 --> 0:16:30.725 Are you ready, Matt? 0:16:31.085 --> 0:16:33.525 I'm terrified, but yes, I guess so. 0:16:34.725 --> 0:16:38.325 Good. Good, It's good to be scared, Daisy. Are you ready? 0:16:39.005 --> 0:16:40.205 I am? I am ready? 0:16:40.685 --> 0:16:51.325 Okay. Our opening statements, Matt, I'm gonna start with you 0:16:51.405 --> 0:16:55.325 because I think you maybe have the more difficult assignment here, 0:16:55.645 --> 0:16:57.725 and I just want to sort of acknowledge that, just 0:16:57.845 --> 0:17:01.165 by the nature of the multiversal milieu of Into the 0:17:01.205 --> 0:17:04.965 Spider Verse, presumably Into the Spider Verse includes the Raymi 0:17:05.245 --> 0:17:09.045 version of Spider Man, along with every other iteration past 0:17:09.125 --> 0:17:13.605 and present that could ever exist. So Spider Gwen, Peter, Porker, 0:17:13.645 --> 0:17:16.325 the Spectacular Spider Ham, They're all part of it. And 0:17:16.725 --> 0:17:24.365 you're advocating boldly for one specific, finite iteration. So I 0:17:24.405 --> 0:17:27.525 salute you for taking on that challenge. Tell us why you, 0:17:27.565 --> 0:17:30.565 as a lifelong Webhead ride for Spider Man two. 0:17:31.365 --> 0:17:34.445 Well, first off, I do want to say that I 0:17:34.645 --> 0:17:37.965 love Into the Spider Verse, and if you had asked 0:17:38.005 --> 0:17:41.045 me to argue in favor of that movie as the 0:17:41.045 --> 0:17:42.925 greatest Spider Man movie of all time, I would have 0:17:43.085 --> 0:17:46.205 done that happily and with very little difficulty. This is 0:17:46.245 --> 0:17:49.445 not a case of I'm going to be angrily arguing 0:17:49.525 --> 0:17:54.484 against Into the Spider Verse, but I will say and 0:17:54.565 --> 0:17:58.645 I do believe that Into the Spider Verse would not 0:17:58.765 --> 0:18:02.525 exist without Spider Man two. So one could say that 0:18:02.605 --> 0:18:06.565 Spider Man two web crawled, so that Into the Spider 0:18:06.645 --> 0:18:11.525 Verse and many other subsequent superhero movies could run up 0:18:11.605 --> 0:18:16.605 a wall and then web swing down the canyons of Manhattan. 0:18:17.165 --> 0:18:19.805 And one of the reasons that I love it is 0:18:20.605 --> 0:18:25.325 it is this is really a perfect marriage of subject 0:18:25.405 --> 0:18:29.685 matter and director. And I know a lot about this movie, 0:18:30.365 --> 0:18:33.445 but to this day, I actually do not know how 0:18:33.565 --> 0:18:38.125 Sam Raimi, a guy whose highest grossing movie prior to 0:18:38.165 --> 0:18:42.085 the first Spider Man made just forty eight million dollars, 0:18:42.245 --> 0:18:46.245 I do not know how he convinced Marvel and Sony 0:18:46.325 --> 0:18:50.925 to put him in charge of this enormous franchise. But 0:18:51.005 --> 0:18:53.845 I do know however he did it. I don't think 0:18:53.885 --> 0:18:56.685 anyone could have done a better job directing that movie 0:18:56.725 --> 0:18:59.565 at that particular time. And that is because Sam Raimi 0:19:00.485 --> 0:19:04.365 is the perfect director for Spider Man. And that is 0:19:04.405 --> 0:19:08.805 because Sam Raimi is a sadist. When you think of 0:19:08.845 --> 0:19:13.245 Sam Ramy's movies, you think of him torturing people. You'd 0:19:13.285 --> 0:19:16.125 think of him chasing Bruce Campbell through that cabin in 0:19:16.165 --> 0:19:19.365 the woods. You think of him blowing up Liam Neeson 0:19:19.485 --> 0:19:22.445 in Dark Man. You give me a Sam Raimi movie, 0:19:22.485 --> 0:19:25.645 I will show you him torturing the hero of that movie. 0:19:25.765 --> 0:19:29.365 That is his passion in life, and Spider Man works 0:19:29.485 --> 0:19:34.405 best at his most tortured. And that is the secret 0:19:34.445 --> 0:19:38.725 sauce to every Stan Lee and Steve Ditko story, the 0:19:38.765 --> 0:19:41.645 fact that nothing ever works out for Peter Parker as 0:19:41.725 --> 0:19:44.325 long as he is Spider Man. Any good thing that 0:19:44.405 --> 0:19:48.565 happens to Peter invariably causes a problem for Spider Man, 0:19:48.645 --> 0:19:52.445 and vice versa. Spider Man's greatest enemy is not Doctor 0:19:52.485 --> 0:19:55.725 Octopus or the Kingpin or anyone else. It is his 0:19:55.845 --> 0:19:59.365 double life. It is the finite number of hours in 0:19:59.405 --> 0:20:02.085 a day that he has to do everything he needs 0:20:02.085 --> 0:20:05.005 to do as Spider Man and everything he has to 0:20:05.045 --> 0:20:09.005 do as Peter. And Sam Raymie understands that, and with 0:20:09.125 --> 0:20:12.565 Spider Man two, he made the movie that captures the 0:20:12.805 --> 0:20:23.965 essence of that unresolvable dilemma from the very first scene, Bada, 0:20:24.045 --> 0:20:26.085 you're late, Man, always late. 0:20:26.565 --> 0:20:29.845 I'm sorry, mister disease. There was a. 0:20:28.925 --> 0:20:31.685 Disturbance, disturbance, another disturbance. Oh, this is a disturbance with 0:20:31.725 --> 0:20:35.085 you come on twenty one minutes ago. Incomes order Hamilton, 0:20:35.125 --> 0:20:38.485 Button and Smith eight extra large deep dish pizzas in 0:20:38.565 --> 0:20:41.565 eight minutes. I am defaulting on Joe's twenty nine minute guarantee. 0:20:41.565 --> 0:20:42.485 Then not only by. 0:20:42.485 --> 0:20:45.405 Deceiving no money for these pizzas, but I will lose 0:20:45.405 --> 0:20:46.925 the customer forever to pwizza. 0:20:47.005 --> 0:20:47.085 Ye. 0:20:47.525 --> 0:20:49.365 Look, you are my only hope. All right. 0:20:49.405 --> 0:20:52.165 You have to make it in time, Peter. You're a 0:20:52.245 --> 0:20:54.525 nice guy, but he's just not dependable. 0:20:55.285 --> 0:20:56.365 This is your last chance. 0:20:57.245 --> 0:20:59.484 You have to go forty two blocks in seven and 0:20:59.525 --> 0:21:00.245 one half minutes. 0:21:00.805 --> 0:21:01.885 Your ass is fired. 0:21:03.845 --> 0:21:08.885 Cool desperately racing to deliver pizzas at his day job 0:21:08.925 --> 0:21:12.125 while also trying to save people as Spider Man. That's 0:21:12.125 --> 0:21:14.925 the whole thing. In the microcosm. He saves a couple kids, 0:21:15.285 --> 0:21:18.285 it cost Peter Parker his job. That's carried through to 0:21:18.325 --> 0:21:22.725 the plot with Doctor Octopus, a wonderful Alfred Malina. He 0:21:22.965 --> 0:21:25.765 is a potential father figure to Peter. He is an 0:21:25.805 --> 0:21:29.805 antagonist to Spider Man, and it goes right through the 0:21:29.805 --> 0:21:33.965 whole movie with the subplot of Peter temporarily choosing to 0:21:34.125 --> 0:21:38.125 abandon his role as Spider Man and embrace this ordinary 0:21:38.205 --> 0:21:43.445 life that he thinks he deserves, and then grappling with 0:21:43.525 --> 0:21:47.085 the fallout of that decision. And that is to say 0:21:47.125 --> 0:21:50.085 nothing about all of the amazing craft in this movie. 0:21:50.365 --> 0:21:54.765 The visual effects the score, the costume design, and yes, 0:21:55.245 --> 0:22:00.405 Sam Raimi's direction, which is so tender in the scenes 0:22:00.925 --> 0:22:05.085 between Peter Parker and Kirsten Duns Mary Jane. And then 0:22:05.125 --> 0:22:11.005 it is, yes, incredibly sadistic. It is brutal. The operating 0:22:11.405 --> 0:22:15.365 room sequence with Doctor Octopus's arms, which could be an 0:22:15.365 --> 0:22:17.805 outtake from an Evil Dead movie. 0:22:18.325 --> 0:22:27.685 We're ready doctor, anybody here takes shop class. 0:22:32.845 --> 0:22:36.565 It's a funny movie, it's exciting, it's a tragedy, and 0:22:36.885 --> 0:22:41.885 it understands Spider Man at his core. And even more 0:22:41.885 --> 0:22:45.845 than that, it believes in Spider Man and what he 0:22:45.965 --> 0:22:49.965 stands for as this icon of power and responsibility. And 0:22:50.045 --> 0:22:53.725 when you watch the movie you feel that coming through. 0:22:54.005 --> 0:22:57.645 So for all of those reasons, that is why Spider 0:22:57.685 --> 0:23:01.645 Man two is the greatest Spider Man movie ever made. 0:23:02.085 --> 0:23:07.085 All Right, very convincing. Thank you, Matt, Daisy. Why is 0:23:07.365 --> 0:23:10.725 Matt's argument in your mind like Auto Octavius, you know, 0:23:10.805 --> 0:23:12.325 well intentioned but wrong? 0:23:14.445 --> 0:23:16.485 Well, I mean, first of all, I just I have 0:23:16.605 --> 0:23:19.205 to say, you know, I think Chris, you really set 0:23:19.245 --> 0:23:22.005 this up accordingly because I I've been given the movie 0:23:22.045 --> 0:23:24.565 that has all of the stuff. Yeah, but Matt is 0:23:24.605 --> 0:23:27.805 them has all of the history so if you had 0:23:27.885 --> 0:23:31.125 given him this movie against anybody, it would have been 0:23:31.725 --> 0:23:34.685 totally handicapped. So wait to keep it even I appreciate this, 0:23:35.165 --> 0:23:38.605 I mean personally in general. I just love, love, love 0:23:38.685 --> 0:23:42.805 love when people take something that is both silly and 0:23:42.925 --> 0:23:46.485 take it seriously and keep it so human, which has 0:23:46.565 --> 0:23:49.285 also been part of what has made Spider Man such 0:23:49.285 --> 0:23:52.445 a magical character for so so long and so relatable. 0:23:52.925 --> 0:23:57.165 And this movie treats it with such affection and respects 0:23:57.205 --> 0:24:01.125 the history and the amount of references that there are, 0:24:01.285 --> 0:24:05.245 but they aren't there as band service only they are 0:24:05.325 --> 0:24:09.005 all part of the world building. Nothing is wasted in 0:24:09.045 --> 0:24:12.005 this movie, and it is probably the best, or at 0:24:12.085 --> 0:24:14.725 least to me, feels like the most accurate Peter Parker 0:24:15.045 --> 0:24:17.405 that we actually really get to see because we'll get 0:24:17.445 --> 0:24:20.085 into it, I'm sure, but Toby, as much as I 0:24:20.125 --> 0:24:23.245 love Spider Man, leaves a bit to be desired, right, 0:24:23.605 --> 0:24:26.725 And so there is just magic in this movie from 0:24:26.845 --> 0:24:29.365 minute one, I mean even early in the movie when 0:24:29.485 --> 0:24:32.525 you find out that the Crispine Peter Parker has died, 0:24:32.565 --> 0:24:34.805 and the idea of like New York City finding out 0:24:34.845 --> 0:24:37.925 that their hero has died was like, oh my God, 0:24:38.005 --> 0:24:41.405 like that hit me so hard, even hits me hard. 0:24:41.445 --> 0:24:44.445 Now on rewatch, you know. 0:24:43.765 --> 0:24:48.005 We interrupt this broadcast for a special report sad news tonight, 0:24:48.925 --> 0:24:52.965 the hero known as Spider Man has died after. 0:24:52.725 --> 0:24:55.325 Injuries related to another powerful earthquake in from. 0:24:55.245 --> 0:24:59.245 The Multiple sources are confirming that Peter Parker, a twenty 0:24:59.285 --> 0:25:00.245 six year old grand. 0:25:02.005 --> 0:25:08.925 Operating, we all have powers of one kind or another, 0:25:11.685 --> 0:25:15.205 but in our own way, we are all Spider Man, 0:25:16.525 --> 0:25:17.725 and we're all counting on you. 0:25:19.845 --> 0:25:24.245 They're counting on me, probably not you specifically. I think 0:25:24.245 --> 0:25:24.965 it's a metaphor. 0:25:25.165 --> 0:25:27.285 Even when it is something that somebody might call him 0:25:27.285 --> 0:25:30.605 easter egg, you realize later on second watch, third watch, 0:25:30.725 --> 0:25:32.205 fourth watch, it has purpose. 0:25:32.605 --> 0:25:33.325 There is just. 0:25:33.565 --> 0:25:38.205 Nothing wasted, and yet it is thrilling, It is sweet, 0:25:38.365 --> 0:25:41.445 it is super funny. It makes you cry. I think 0:25:41.485 --> 0:25:44.285 I remember when we talked about this in Pop Culture 0:25:44.325 --> 0:25:46.085 Happy Hour. I think I had counted that I had 0:25:46.085 --> 0:25:49.605 cried three times or something like that. There is nothing 0:25:49.725 --> 0:25:52.485 unsatisfying about this movie in any way. And they don't 0:25:52.605 --> 0:25:56.165 do that by abandoning anything about Spider Man. They do 0:25:56.245 --> 0:25:59.965 that by completely mining everything that has always made Spider 0:26:00.005 --> 0:26:02.605 Man awesome. I mean everything about it is just so fun. 0:26:03.405 --> 0:26:03.725 Agreed. 0:26:04.045 --> 0:26:06.205 I don't know about anyone else here, but when Peter 0:26:06.365 --> 0:26:10.085 tells Miles he's proud of him, Oh my god, Miles, 0:26:10.565 --> 0:26:14.645 Spider Wow, Wow, you're doing it after bath? 0:26:14.805 --> 0:26:17.125 I have time, right, I love you. 0:26:17.245 --> 0:26:19.925 I'm so proud of I don't know about you, but 0:26:20.685 --> 0:26:25.005 I mean, just hearing Spider Man. Can you imagine Spider 0:26:25.045 --> 0:26:26.685 Man telling you he's proud of you? 0:26:27.085 --> 0:26:27.445 Yeah? 0:26:27.485 --> 0:26:30.325 Would there be anyone better to tell you they're proud 0:26:30.365 --> 0:26:33.205 of you? I guess maybe a parent, I suppose, But 0:26:33.925 --> 0:26:35.805 right below that on the list for me would be 0:26:35.805 --> 0:26:38.205 Spider Man. I mean, that's a good one. I think 0:26:38.245 --> 0:26:40.725 a lot of Spider Man fans would feel that way. 0:26:40.845 --> 0:26:42.485 Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot of talk about, 0:26:42.685 --> 0:26:46.525 at least initially, you know, comics were power fantasies aimed 0:26:46.565 --> 0:26:49.285 at primarily children who didn't have any agency yet or 0:26:49.285 --> 0:26:51.845 felt weak or felt But yeah, just imagining. I mean, 0:26:51.965 --> 0:26:53.765 we were all adults when this film came out, but 0:26:53.805 --> 0:26:58.445 I can imagine being a viewer of Miles's age or younger, 0:26:58.725 --> 0:27:01.125 and yeah, that that moment with I hadn't even thought 0:27:01.125 --> 0:27:02.725 about that, but yeah, that must be. 0:27:03.565 --> 0:27:05.165 Very very I mean I think that is part of 0:27:05.165 --> 0:27:07.605 it too, is like it takes me back to feeling 0:27:08.205 --> 0:27:12.325 that age right, even more than the other movies make 0:27:12.365 --> 0:27:15.205 me feel, you know, the age that Peter Parker is 0:27:15.205 --> 0:27:16.765 supposed to be in them. So I mean, it just 0:27:16.925 --> 0:27:21.365 it just really has something special. What can you do, guys? 0:27:21.365 --> 0:27:27.925 This is going to take a while, right, never mind. 0:27:29.925 --> 0:27:34.245 Hey lady, welcome to Cultivating her Space. Join us every 0:27:34.285 --> 0:27:38.045 Friday as we create space for black women to just be. 0:27:38.525 --> 0:27:41.605 Take a listen to a few of our favorite moments there. 0:27:41.605 --> 0:27:42.565 This slow me down. 0:27:42.805 --> 0:27:44.845 It was like, wait, let's sit with this now, this 0:27:44.925 --> 0:27:48.285 is uncomfortable. So that when I really began to feel 0:27:48.405 --> 0:27:50.965 the feelings and not just push them down. Listen to 0:27:51.005 --> 0:27:55.685 the Cultivating her Space podcast on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. 0:27:55.725 --> 0:27:58.565 Follow Cultivating her Space and start listening on the free 0:27:58.685 --> 0:28:00.005 iHeartRadio app today. 0:28:01.165 --> 0:28:03.365 All right, so we have our opening statements, we'll get 0:28:03.365 --> 0:28:06.525 into our first one round one the movies in their time. 0:28:06.605 --> 0:28:09.405 In this opening round, we'll discuss how these movies were 0:28:09.485 --> 0:28:12.205 received when they were new. Spider Man two was two 0:28:12.285 --> 0:28:15.285 thousand and four second highest grossing film in the United States, 0:28:15.365 --> 0:28:19.645 significantly behind that year's champ Shrek two just ahead of 0:28:19.685 --> 0:28:21.645 the Passion of the Christ some other. 0:28:22.365 --> 0:28:23.325 What a time to be alive? 0:28:23.565 --> 0:28:25.445 Yeah, you know, it was a great time for Ip 0:28:25.525 --> 0:28:29.485 another guy who loves being tortured on screen, true, who 0:28:29.525 --> 0:28:32.685 directed the Passion of the Christ much I don't know. 0:28:32.765 --> 0:28:35.405 We already named Brian Singer on this Let's not make 0:28:35.445 --> 0:28:38.765 it anywhors rushed into theaters just twenty six months after 0:28:38.845 --> 0:28:41.605 Ramy's first Spider Man. Spider Man who got even stronger 0:28:41.645 --> 0:28:44.765 reviews than its precursor. John Dykstra, who had won an 0:28:44.805 --> 0:28:47.965 Academy Award for Best Visual Effects on the original nineteen 0:28:48.005 --> 0:28:51.365 seventy seven Star Wars, collected his second Oscar for the 0:28:51.485 --> 0:28:54.845 visual effects on the spider sequel. He will believe a 0:28:54.885 --> 0:28:59.885 Spider Man can fly or or at least swing great distances. Meanwhile, 0:28:59.925 --> 0:29:03.045 by the time into the Spider Verse about in twenty eighteen, 0:29:03.085 --> 0:29:05.925 we were fully a decade into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. 0:29:05.925 --> 0:29:08.445 We had already had a half dozen live action Spider 0:29:08.485 --> 0:29:11.605 Man features in the twenty first century, not counting MCU 0:29:11.685 --> 0:29:15.005 movies like Captain America Civil War and Avengers Infinity War, 0:29:15.045 --> 0:29:18.885 where the Tom Holland Spider Man is a significant supporting 0:29:18.925 --> 0:29:22.165 player at this point, the MCU the biggest thing in movies, 0:29:22.165 --> 0:29:26.005 but even the Sony Spider Man movies regarded as disappointments 0:29:26.165 --> 0:29:29.645 like Raymy spider Man three or outright failures like The 0:29:29.685 --> 0:29:32.885 Amazing spider Man two, the Andrew Garfield Mark Web one, 0:29:33.045 --> 0:29:36.125 they were all huge moneymakers, even the ones we don't 0:29:36.365 --> 0:29:40.565 like far out grossing even good contemporaneous superhero movies like 0:29:40.565 --> 0:29:44.125 the Fox x Men series or Batman begins. You know, 0:29:44.165 --> 0:29:47.165 the Batman doesn't catch up to Spider commercially until the 0:29:47.245 --> 0:29:50.085 Dark Night, and then at the beginning of the year 0:29:50.245 --> 0:29:52.565 where into the Spider Verse will will come. At the end, 0:29:52.645 --> 0:29:55.925 we have Black Panther, which comes out in February, makes 0:29:55.925 --> 0:29:59.605 a billion dollars, proving that the demand for a black 0:29:59.645 --> 0:30:04.165 Marvel superhero was there in force. It's interesting to me 0:30:04.205 --> 0:30:08.445 that Spider Man two was an instant smash and Into 0:30:08.445 --> 0:30:11.725 the Spider Verse was more of a grower. It grows 0:30:11.805 --> 0:30:15.445 less than half what another Spider Man adjacent movie, Venom did, 0:30:15.485 --> 0:30:18.365 released just two months earlier. I mean, it does win 0:30:18.405 --> 0:30:21.485 an Oscar, it does win Best Animated Feature, and by 0:30:21.525 --> 0:30:25.005 the time the sequel Across the Spider Verse finally comes along, 0:30:25.085 --> 0:30:27.565 it more than doubles the domestic box office of the 0:30:27.565 --> 0:30:29.765 first one, which would tell us that audiences did catch 0:30:29.845 --> 0:30:31.525 up with it and embrace it. 0:30:31.685 --> 0:30:34.005 Well, nobody really wanted it into the Spider verse. I 0:30:34.005 --> 0:30:36.485 mean that was the thing. I remember seeing the trailers 0:30:36.525 --> 0:30:39.885 and people being like, why is this coming out? I mean, 0:30:40.165 --> 0:30:43.685 you rightly named that Tom Holland had taken over the 0:30:43.805 --> 0:30:46.485 role in the MCU, but I mean it really was 0:30:46.525 --> 0:30:48.165 back to back to back, right Like, it makes his 0:30:48.205 --> 0:30:51.045 first appearance in Civil War that's twenty sixteen, then they 0:30:51.085 --> 0:30:54.605 put out Homecoming that's twenty seventeen, So it's like there's 0:30:54.645 --> 0:30:59.525 been all this waiting for him to actually join the MCU, 0:30:59.685 --> 0:31:03.205 being Marvel's biggest character. And then on top of that, 0:31:03.285 --> 0:31:05.165 you have the fatigue of the fact that you did 0:31:05.165 --> 0:31:08.125 have the Andrew Garfield movies not that long before, which 0:31:08.685 --> 0:31:12.285 felt already like so fast on top of the rainy movies, 0:31:12.405 --> 0:31:16.045 especially by like Hollywood standards, and then here comes this 0:31:16.085 --> 0:31:18.845 animated movie that I mean, we all know how amazing 0:31:18.925 --> 0:31:21.725 it ends up looking, but I do you remember the 0:31:21.725 --> 0:31:24.805 trailers and being like, what what is this? Who asked 0:31:24.805 --> 0:31:27.285 for this? What's going on? That seemed to be the 0:31:27.285 --> 0:31:28.685 prevailing opinion at the time. 0:31:28.965 --> 0:31:31.125 Yeah, but I remember being baffled, you know, like I 0:31:31.165 --> 0:31:33.645 had heard that there was an animated Spider Man movie 0:31:33.645 --> 0:31:36.885 coming from the Cloudy with the chance of Meatball's guy. Right, 0:31:37.165 --> 0:31:41.805 but yeah, so it's a comedy, which I mean, yes, 0:31:42.325 --> 0:31:43.605 and everything else. 0:31:43.725 --> 0:31:46.165 And then it came out and just not people's socks off. 0:31:47.045 --> 0:31:50.405 So you want to learn to be Spider Man? Key teacher, Yes, 0:31:50.445 --> 0:31:53.805 I can't. Time to swing? Good to do it, double 0:31:53.885 --> 0:31:57.165 tap jourmy and quip it out again. Okay, where and 0:31:57.205 --> 0:31:58.085 really you're an actress. 0:31:58.205 --> 0:31:58.405 Where? 0:32:02.845 --> 0:32:06.565 Well, let's start by getting into these two screenplays specifically 0:32:06.765 --> 0:32:10.965 and Spider Man two original Spider Man screenwriter David Kepp 0:32:11.125 --> 0:32:13.605 from you know, Jurassic Park and Mission Impossible, all these 0:32:13.685 --> 0:32:17.485 huge nineties movies. Disclosure Day this year, he does not return. 0:32:17.685 --> 0:32:20.605 Sony hires Michael Chabon, who had just won the Pulitzer 0:32:20.645 --> 0:32:24.645 Prize for his magnificent novel The Amazing Adventures of Cavalier 0:32:24.645 --> 0:32:26.885 and Clay, which is in part about a comic book artist. 0:32:26.925 --> 0:32:29.605 And I see this now as being very similar to 0:32:30.005 --> 0:32:32.245 when Mario Puzo was hired to write the screenplay for 0:32:32.285 --> 0:32:36.245 Superman in the seventies, where he's this hot literary figure 0:32:36.565 --> 0:32:39.245 who turns in this bloated draft that Richard Donner said 0:32:39.325 --> 0:32:41.685 was completely unusable. There's not a trace of it in 0:32:41.725 --> 0:32:44.685 the movie, and by most accounts, nothing that Schabon wrote 0:32:44.725 --> 0:32:47.085 ended up in Spider Man two either. The Spider Man 0:32:47.085 --> 0:32:50.405 two shooting script is credited to Alvin Sargent, who is 0:32:50.445 --> 0:32:52.885 an old hand. He had won two screenwriting Oscars for 0:32:53.005 --> 0:32:56.605 Julia and Ordinary People. He was seventy seven years old 0:32:56.645 --> 0:32:59.205 when this movie came out. So not the guy who 0:32:59.285 --> 0:33:01.485 you'd expect to crack Spider Man, right, This is the 0:33:01.485 --> 0:33:04.245 guy who really understands Peter Parker and his problems. And 0:33:04.285 --> 0:33:07.565 I think that had they been subtitling the Spider Man 0:33:07.565 --> 0:33:10.045 movies then the way they are now, this one probably 0:33:10.085 --> 0:33:13.045 would have been called Spider Man No More. We even 0:33:13.405 --> 0:33:16.165 quote the John Ramita senior panel from The Amazing Spider 0:33:16.205 --> 0:33:19.605 Man number fifty. In the shot where Peter hangs it up, 0:33:19.645 --> 0:33:21.205 we see him walking down the alley and in the 0:33:21.245 --> 0:33:25.805 foreground his discarded Spider Man costume is in the trash can. 0:33:26.885 --> 0:33:30.525 So given all that Matt did, did Alvin Sergeant again 0:33:30.565 --> 0:33:32.845 a man who belongs more to j Jon to Jamison's 0:33:32.845 --> 0:33:35.485 generation than to Peters, did he write the best Spider 0:33:35.525 --> 0:33:36.325 Man screenplay? 0:33:36.725 --> 0:33:39.405 I mean a case could and perhaps will right now 0:33:39.525 --> 0:33:42.205 be made that he did. He and all those names 0:33:42.205 --> 0:33:44.765 you mentioned. I think David Kep did work on this 0:33:44.885 --> 0:33:48.485 movie at some point. Also probably and Alfred Goff and 0:33:48.605 --> 0:33:51.245 Miles Miller from Smallville I know worked on it to 0:33:51.725 --> 0:33:54.285 I'm sure there's probably other people that whose names have 0:33:54.365 --> 0:33:56.445 never been revealed or worked on it. These movies, there's 0:33:56.485 --> 0:34:01.045 always yeah, maybe who knows so, But I do think 0:34:01.125 --> 0:34:05.005 it is a very well written movie. I think that 0:34:05.205 --> 0:34:11.285 it's a movie that stands up to rewatching. And one 0:34:11.325 --> 0:34:13.645 of the things you notice when you rewatch it is 0:34:13.765 --> 0:34:18.885 just how lovely all the various elements of it play together, 0:34:19.045 --> 0:34:22.645 the structure of it, and the way that so much 0:34:22.685 --> 0:34:26.645 of the movie is built around that central dilemma between 0:34:27.205 --> 0:34:31.445 Peter Parker and Spider Man, that the internal struggle is 0:34:31.525 --> 0:34:34.805 just everything in the movie is kind of built off 0:34:34.845 --> 0:34:37.965 of that architecture in a lovely way, including the way 0:34:37.965 --> 0:34:42.725 that they use Doctor Octopus, making him kind of both 0:34:42.805 --> 0:34:45.805 a mentor and a villain, making him a figure that 0:34:46.165 --> 0:34:48.525 Peter Parker in the beginning of the movie can really 0:34:48.645 --> 0:34:51.245 look up to. He has a life that you think 0:34:51.965 --> 0:34:56.884 Peter would you know, aspire to have. He's a successful scientist, 0:34:56.965 --> 0:35:00.725 he's brilliant. He's got a beautiful and supportive wife who's 0:35:00.805 --> 0:35:03.085 like hanging out with him in his lab, pouring him 0:35:03.165 --> 0:35:06.325 tea and joking around. And it looks like he's got 0:35:06.325 --> 0:35:09.884 a pretty cushy setup. Yeah, And what does he say 0:35:09.885 --> 0:35:10.885 to him in that scene? 0:35:11.445 --> 0:35:14.645 He tells him, Parker, now I remember you, your Connor 0:35:14.725 --> 0:35:19.404 student tells me you are brilliant. He also tells me a. 0:35:19.405 --> 0:35:23.005 Lazy trying to do better well being. 0:35:23.045 --> 0:35:26.205 Brilliance not enough, young man. You have to work hard. 0:35:26.885 --> 0:35:30.165 Intelligence is not a privilege, it's a gift, and you 0:35:30.285 --> 0:35:32.245 use it for the good of mankind. 0:35:31.965 --> 0:35:35.005 Which is another way of saying, with great power comes 0:35:35.045 --> 0:35:39.565 great responsibility. And a moment later, he starts talking about 0:35:39.605 --> 0:35:42.884 his work as a scientist, and he's talking about harmonic convergence, 0:35:43.285 --> 0:35:45.805 and what you have in that scene are harmonic convergences 0:35:45.885 --> 0:35:50.364 between doctor Octopus's philosophy and the philosophy that Spider Man 0:35:50.405 --> 0:35:54.165 and Peter Parker live by. And little notes like that 0:35:54.405 --> 0:35:57.205 are sprinkled throughout the film, and you don't have to 0:35:57.205 --> 0:36:00.085 be paying attention. But if you are paying attention, you 0:36:00.165 --> 0:36:03.404 catch that stuff. There's lines like I think it's as 0:36:03.445 --> 0:36:06.325 if Manvi is the boss at the pizza place, and 0:36:06.445 --> 0:36:09.045 when he's yelling at Peter Parker, he says, to you, Parker, 0:36:09.085 --> 0:36:11.845 a promise means nothing. And the entire film is built 0:36:11.845 --> 0:36:14.765 around the promise he makes to a dead uncle Ben 0:36:15.285 --> 0:36:17.565 saying you know that he will kind of carry on 0:36:18.005 --> 0:36:22.485 and be Spider Man, to prove that he's grown and 0:36:22.525 --> 0:36:25.845 that with great power must come great responsibility. And then 0:36:26.085 --> 0:36:30.565 the whole element of Mary Jane's subplot in this film 0:36:30.565 --> 0:36:33.685 and her part of the story. She's appearing on Broadway 0:36:34.085 --> 0:36:38.405 in the Importance of Being Earnest, a play about double lives. 0:36:38.965 --> 0:36:41.165 The scene that we see her in in the film 0:36:41.205 --> 0:36:43.605 Spider Man two, she's in a play. This is a film. 0:36:43.645 --> 0:36:46.565 It's very confusing. But the line that's said in the 0:36:46.605 --> 0:36:49.405 scene where Peter finally shows up to watch her. 0:36:49.365 --> 0:36:51.885 Is I hope you have not been leading a double life, 0:36:52.085 --> 0:36:54.765 pretending to be wicked and being really good all the time. 0:36:55.405 --> 0:36:56.525 That would be hypocrisy. 0:36:56.965 --> 0:37:00.685 So again you're underlining all of the themes of the 0:37:00.725 --> 0:37:04.445 movie in this scene. That's also involves, you know, all 0:37:04.445 --> 0:37:07.605 of the stuff involving the play has there's all kinds 0:37:07.645 --> 0:37:11.445 of wackiness and Sam Raimi comedy built into that. Bruce 0:37:11.485 --> 0:37:15.645 Campbell playing the guy who refuses to let Peter into 0:37:15.725 --> 0:37:20.045 the theater late, but again harmonic convergences and residences with 0:37:20.125 --> 0:37:22.765 the theme and even just the name of the play, 0:37:23.165 --> 0:37:27.685 the importance of being earnest. That is like another way 0:37:27.765 --> 0:37:31.365 of talking about why this movie is good. It is earnest. 0:37:31.485 --> 0:37:35.125 It believes in Spider Man. This is not a movie 0:37:35.765 --> 0:37:40.325 that is It's not like the current Marvel product, which 0:37:40.405 --> 0:37:44.885 is so snarky and ironic, and characters are always like 0:37:45.325 --> 0:37:50.404 deflating big emotional moments, saying something cute and quippy. And 0:37:50.605 --> 0:37:53.605 this movie has lots of comedy in it, but it 0:37:53.765 --> 0:37:58.605 believes so sincerely and so intensely in the Spider Man 0:37:58.725 --> 0:38:02.325 character and him being a force for good and these 0:38:02.365 --> 0:38:06.845 ideas being valuable. And I think there was a period 0:38:06.965 --> 0:38:10.404 I can remember, kind of right before the Tom Holland movies, 0:38:10.485 --> 0:38:12.245 or maybe at the very beginning of them, where the 0:38:12.925 --> 0:38:15.765 Raymy Spider Man movies kind of fell out of popularity 0:38:15.765 --> 0:38:17.765 a little bit. They were starting to see kind of 0:38:17.845 --> 0:38:21.365 dated Spider Man three wasn't great, and people would say, oh, 0:38:21.485 --> 0:38:26.325 those movies, they're old fashioned. And I feel like now 0:38:26.485 --> 0:38:28.805 people again have kind of come around to them, and 0:38:28.845 --> 0:38:31.285 I think a big reason why. There's a few reasons, 0:38:31.285 --> 0:38:32.765 but I do think this is one of them, is 0:38:32.805 --> 0:38:37.085 that it has this kind of timeless love of Spider Man. 0:38:37.165 --> 0:38:40.205 And it's not cute about it. It's just so you 0:38:40.245 --> 0:38:43.525 can really feel it. Sam Raimi believes this Mischi goss 0:38:43.565 --> 0:38:47.045 about this kid wearing a Spider Man mask. He loves it. 0:38:47.085 --> 0:38:49.725 He believes in it. And I think a lot of 0:38:49.765 --> 0:38:52.725 the credit should go to the screenplay by Alvin Sargent 0:38:52.805 --> 0:38:57.005 and whoever else worked by the scenes kind of crafting 0:38:57.045 --> 0:39:00.525 that and really helping that really come through the film, 0:39:00.565 --> 0:39:03.365 not just in the direction, but in the writing, the dialogue, 0:39:03.405 --> 0:39:03.965 the structure. 0:39:04.285 --> 0:39:06.725 Well, it's an excellent point about harmonic convergence, and the 0:39:07.085 --> 0:39:09.285 scene about going to see the Oscar wild play, the 0:39:09.885 --> 0:39:12.965 one into the Spider Verse where Miles's parents take him 0:39:12.965 --> 0:39:15.325 to see Spider Man turn off the Dark. Really, to me, 0:39:15.925 --> 0:39:17.964 it was beautiful work. That was a little too much, 0:39:19.045 --> 0:39:21.205 you know, And thank God that Miles is mom is 0:39:21.205 --> 0:39:24.285 an e our nurse, all right, Daisy, where are you 0:39:24.325 --> 0:39:26.405 on Spider Man two? Story wise? 0:39:26.965 --> 0:39:30.925 I mean, I don't have anything to say an objection 0:39:31.085 --> 0:39:33.085 to any of those points about Spider Man two. I 0:39:33.085 --> 0:39:35.605 think that's all absolutely true. I think that's part of 0:39:35.605 --> 0:39:38.805 what makes that movie really lovely. I mean I have 0:39:38.845 --> 0:39:43.285 such a visceral memory of how much I enjoyed seeing 0:39:43.325 --> 0:39:45.845 it when I saw it, like how thrilling it was. 0:39:45.885 --> 0:39:48.365 And that was after really liking the first one and 0:39:48.485 --> 0:39:51.925 just immediately being like wow, like I didn't think you 0:39:51.925 --> 0:39:54.925 could make a sequel that was like so much stronger. 0:39:54.925 --> 0:39:57.245 I mean, it really was great. I love all of 0:39:57.285 --> 0:40:00.285 the things that Matt is rightly describing about Spider Man two, 0:40:00.365 --> 0:40:01.045 for sure. 0:40:00.885 --> 0:40:04.125 Getting into the screenplay of into the Spider Verse where 0:40:04.325 --> 0:40:07.885 this is I mean credited to Phil Lord and Bob pursqutti, 0:40:07.965 --> 0:40:11.844 so one of the producers, one of the three directors, 0:40:12.125 --> 0:40:15.805 but who knows. I mean, most comic book movies are 0:40:15.885 --> 0:40:18.925 more acts of synthesis than pure adaptation, right, where we're 0:40:18.965 --> 0:40:22.405 choosing elements from different eras of the character and you know, 0:40:22.485 --> 0:40:26.045 combining them in a new way. You and I spoke 0:40:26.405 --> 0:40:29.085 briefly about Supergirl, the current Supergirl, right, which is the 0:40:29.245 --> 0:40:33.645 rare adaptation of the specific limited comic book series from 0:40:33.765 --> 0:40:36.605 just a few years ago, right, which is quite unusual. 0:40:37.085 --> 0:40:39.165 But into the Spider Verse goes beyond even that. So 0:40:39.165 --> 0:40:42.525 I mean we were meeting the Miles Morales iteration of 0:40:42.725 --> 0:40:45.885 Spider Man, created in twenty eleven by writer Brian Michael 0:40:46.005 --> 0:40:49.005 Bendis and artist Sarah Picelli. So at the point this 0:40:49.085 --> 0:40:50.925 movie comes out, this character has only been in the 0:40:50.925 --> 0:40:54.805 comics for seven years, Yeah, which is fairly unusual. Every 0:40:54.845 --> 0:40:57.685 other superhero movie we'd seen was about someone who had 0:40:57.685 --> 0:41:00.765 been around for decades, so we don't only get the 0:41:00.845 --> 0:41:06.045 familiar superhero origin story arc or Miles is acquiring superpowers, 0:41:06.165 --> 0:41:10.165 finding a mentor figure in the form of Jake Johnson's wonderful, depressed, divorced, 0:41:10.205 --> 0:41:14.605 out of shape Peter Parker from yet another dimention. Yes, 0:41:15.005 --> 0:41:18.885 and they're constantly commenting on his gut rude. And on 0:41:18.925 --> 0:41:20.565 top of all that, he has to discover that he 0:41:20.645 --> 0:41:22.925 lives in a in a multiverse and that there are 0:41:23.085 --> 0:41:26.645 variants of everyone he knows, all the heroes and villains 0:41:26.645 --> 0:41:30.245 of his own world. And this movie is still under 0:41:30.245 --> 0:41:34.805 two hours long. Like this is the astonishing feat of economy. 0:41:35.725 --> 0:41:38.925 I forget that all the time, and I'm shocked every 0:41:38.925 --> 0:41:41.885 time I go to watch it that it is so 0:41:41.965 --> 0:41:42.405 for all that is. 0:41:42.605 --> 0:41:45.565 Is this the best written Spider Man movie into the 0:41:45.605 --> 0:41:46.285 Spider verse? 0:41:46.805 --> 0:41:49.844 I do think it is quite the feat And there 0:41:49.925 --> 0:41:52.645 is just something amazing about as you said, it's under 0:41:52.645 --> 0:41:56.325 two hours. There is a density there that somehow manages 0:41:56.365 --> 0:42:00.845 to not be overwhelming. It manages to really just actually 0:42:00.845 --> 0:42:03.525 bring you in, right. I think they do an incredible 0:42:03.645 --> 0:42:06.245 job of leaving in the backstory, and instead of it 0:42:06.285 --> 0:42:08.844 being something that could be off putting because you feel like, oh, 0:42:08.845 --> 0:42:11.125 I don't know this, they approach it in a way 0:42:11.125 --> 0:42:13.685 where they're like, look, even if you don't actually know 0:42:14.285 --> 0:42:17.005 the specifics of Spider Man, let's be real. If you've 0:42:17.005 --> 0:42:20.205 been alive, you've probably seen something, and they like give 0:42:20.245 --> 0:42:22.444 you just enough of those references to kind of pull 0:42:22.485 --> 0:42:25.605 you in and bring you along. It is inviting instead 0:42:25.605 --> 0:42:29.685 of feeling like homework. And then on top of that, 0:42:29.765 --> 0:42:32.645 I mean for a movie, and I mean I do 0:42:32.685 --> 0:42:34.844 think this is part of the screenplay, this is part 0:42:34.845 --> 0:42:37.725 of what works. But for a movie that is telling 0:42:37.765 --> 0:42:41.485 you so much, this movie is a mastery of showing 0:42:41.565 --> 0:42:45.285 and not telling. Like everything is building upon itself. Right, 0:42:45.485 --> 0:42:48.205 it's an origin story, but it doesn't feel like it's 0:42:48.285 --> 0:42:51.685 dwelling in that even as you're completely aware the entire 0:42:51.765 --> 0:42:53.845 time that you're in an origin story. I mean, that 0:42:53.885 --> 0:42:56.165 was one of the major conversations around comics movies for 0:42:56.205 --> 0:42:57.765 a while, was like, Okay, well, they're going to bring 0:42:57.765 --> 0:42:59.845 out a new character that first movie is gonna have 0:42:59.885 --> 0:43:01.285 to be an origin story. Are we all going to 0:43:01.325 --> 0:43:03.885 suffer through the origin story? And even though this is 0:43:03.925 --> 0:43:08.045 an origin story and that is referenced in the movie itself, 0:43:08.085 --> 0:43:10.685 it doesn't feel that way. It doesn't feel weighty in 0:43:10.725 --> 0:43:13.045 that way of like, well, first I just got to 0:43:13.045 --> 0:43:15.605 get through this like information. I gotta get this backstory 0:43:15.645 --> 0:43:18.005 so that later there can actually be a story that 0:43:18.045 --> 0:43:21.045 has heart and steaks and all of that good stuff. No, 0:43:21.405 --> 0:43:24.844 it's all here. I also think that the characterization of 0:43:24.965 --> 0:43:26.805 you know, Miles is supposed to be in junior high, 0:43:26.845 --> 0:43:30.925 and he feels like a very believable, very smart, capable 0:43:31.405 --> 0:43:32.885 New York junior high kid. 0:43:33.725 --> 0:43:35.885 That's weird. My pants shrink. 0:43:37.165 --> 0:43:38.325 I think I hit puberty. 0:43:38.485 --> 0:43:40.445 But I mean they make jokes about puberty, but the 0:43:40.485 --> 0:43:42.885 actual like big feelings and the fact that he's reacting 0:43:42.885 --> 0:43:45.325 to so many things. Doesn't just feel like it's something 0:43:45.365 --> 0:43:47.445 that is happening because he's in a movie and they 0:43:47.805 --> 0:43:49.805 need him to react to them. They feel very true 0:43:49.845 --> 0:43:51.645 to being thirteen, fourteen years old? 0:43:51.765 --> 0:43:53.325 Wait, why is the voice in my. 0:43:53.325 --> 0:43:54.085 Head so loud? 0:43:54.925 --> 0:43:55.005 What? 0:43:56.325 --> 0:43:58.325 Oh? Are you okay? What? 0:43:59.725 --> 0:44:01.045 Why am I so sweaty? 0:44:01.125 --> 0:44:02.365 Why are you so sweaty? 0:44:03.205 --> 0:44:04.165 It's a puberty thing. 0:44:05.605 --> 0:44:07.605 I don't know why I said that I'm not going 0:44:07.605 --> 0:44:08.205 through puberty. 0:44:08.645 --> 0:44:10.964 I did, but I'm done. 0:44:12.005 --> 0:44:13.805 I'm a man. I mean. 0:44:13.965 --> 0:44:18.205 It really is just beautifully woven, and you have multiple 0:44:18.285 --> 0:44:22.445 characters going through really satisfying arcs that all feel very 0:44:22.485 --> 0:44:25.005 true for where they are in their lives, for where 0:44:25.045 --> 0:44:27.725 they are in this adventure, and for you know, if 0:44:27.765 --> 0:44:30.725 you are a fan of Spider Man, whether it's from 0:44:30.805 --> 0:44:33.805 the Ramie movies, or whether it's from reading the comics 0:44:33.805 --> 0:44:35.965 for years, or even if it's from seeing Turn Off 0:44:36.005 --> 0:44:38.725 the Dark, which, weirdly, the whole second act of that 0:44:38.765 --> 0:44:42.085 show relied on you having seen the first two Rami movies. 0:44:42.325 --> 0:44:44.365 They did not explain very much. It was not a 0:44:44.405 --> 0:44:47.605 good show. This actually manages to get all of that 0:44:47.685 --> 0:44:49.965 in there, and then, like you said, like it's never boring. 0:44:50.005 --> 0:44:52.765 You laugh, you cry, you really are taken on this adventure, 0:44:52.845 --> 0:44:55.484 and it's all under two hours. I mean, how could 0:44:55.485 --> 0:44:58.884 it not be the greatest script and actually achieve all 0:44:58.885 --> 0:44:59.085 of that? 0:44:59.445 --> 0:45:01.844 Yeah, I mean I came into this without any prior relation. 0:45:02.005 --> 0:45:04.165 I mean I was aware that there was a new 0:45:04.325 --> 0:45:06.485 version of Spider Man in the comics, but I hadn't, 0:45:06.565 --> 0:45:09.845 you know, unlike Peter Parker, I was introduced to Miles 0:45:09.885 --> 0:45:15.005 Morales by this movie, and my classical conception of Spider 0:45:15.045 --> 0:45:17.005 Man was so much what Matt was describing. The guy 0:45:17.085 --> 0:45:20.525 who's poor. You know, he's in a terrible apartment. You know, 0:45:20.565 --> 0:45:23.205 Aunt May needs her medicine. You know, he's unlucky in love. 0:45:23.205 --> 0:45:25.325 And to see that, you know, Miles is he has 0:45:25.365 --> 0:45:28.165 two loving parents. He's in this magnet school. You know, 0:45:28.245 --> 0:45:30.364 he has a lot of self confidence. And I was like, wait, 0:45:30.765 --> 0:45:32.845 I don't know about this, you know can So the 0:45:32.885 --> 0:45:34.725 fact that the movie does find a way to still 0:45:34.765 --> 0:45:38.685 make him a vulnerable figure in an underdog pretty quickly 0:45:38.965 --> 0:45:42.485 is remarkable. And even though we do pick up this 0:45:42.605 --> 0:45:45.645 multiversal idea in the live action Spider Man movies a 0:45:45.685 --> 0:45:48.885 few years later with Far from Home, I feel like 0:45:49.045 --> 0:45:55.725 the closer live action analog to this is Deadpool and Wolverine, right, 0:45:55.805 --> 0:45:57.844 which I mean was a massive hit and a lot 0:45:57.845 --> 0:45:59.525 of people like it, and a lot of people find 0:45:59.605 --> 0:46:02.965 it insufferable, right because it's so self impressed and so 0:46:03.045 --> 0:46:08.045 self referential, And how is this not that? You know, like, 0:46:08.165 --> 0:46:11.045 even people who aren't wild about Into the Spider Verse, 0:46:11.605 --> 0:46:14.205 the objection I hear more is it's just sensory overload. 0:46:14.245 --> 0:46:15.965 It's too much to take in. No one says like 0:46:16.005 --> 0:46:18.565 it's too impressed with itself, it's too winky winky. It 0:46:18.605 --> 0:46:22.605 has that, you know, just that that Ryan Rend's quality 0:46:22.685 --> 0:46:25.645 that I'm sure that's a screen persona that Reynolds has 0:46:25.885 --> 0:46:29.685 decided to cultivate and lean into. But this doesn't have 0:46:29.845 --> 0:46:32.245 any any of that. This is for such a self 0:46:32.285 --> 0:46:37.485 aware movie. It is still tremendously emotional, and I don't 0:46:37.525 --> 0:46:38.965 know how they pulled that off. 0:46:39.205 --> 0:46:41.365 Yeah, I mean, I think to even speak to Matt's 0:46:41.365 --> 0:46:43.845 point about Spider Man two and like you can feel 0:46:43.925 --> 0:46:46.645 that there is a love for Spider Man and the 0:46:46.725 --> 0:46:49.924 character in the movie, I think that similarly, the Into 0:46:49.965 --> 0:46:52.765 the Spider Verse has a love for not only the 0:46:52.805 --> 0:46:56.045 individual character Spider Man, but what Spider Man has meant 0:46:56.125 --> 0:46:59.844 to people and why and why for so long, and 0:46:59.925 --> 0:47:03.885 how that character is different than those other big heroes 0:47:03.925 --> 0:47:07.844 that come from these different, unrelatable backgrounds. Right, it really 0:47:07.925 --> 0:47:11.125 is celebrating that, and not just in the sense of like, yes, diversity, 0:47:11.525 --> 0:47:14.285 because it was twenty eighteen, and yes, we were like 0:47:14.325 --> 0:47:17.005 a year and a half into Trump's first presidency, even 0:47:17.045 --> 0:47:19.085 though when they started making the movie that is probably 0:47:19.085 --> 0:47:19.605 not where they. 0:47:19.525 --> 0:47:20.125 Thought would be. 0:47:21.085 --> 0:47:24.365 Yeah, it doesn't feel like those things are done to 0:47:24.525 --> 0:47:27.445 be shoehorned. It feels like it is done with the 0:47:27.525 --> 0:47:29.925 e towards like, Wow, this is one of the things 0:47:29.925 --> 0:47:33.085 that really became special about this character over time, and 0:47:33.125 --> 0:47:35.525 we're going to lean into celebrating that. And I think 0:47:35.525 --> 0:47:38.045 that when you come to something with that desire to 0:47:38.125 --> 0:47:41.285 actually like celebrate it and share it as opposed to 0:47:41.685 --> 0:47:44.285 just making people feel like I see you because you 0:47:44.365 --> 0:47:46.725 like did the homework, like you know, like that's a 0:47:46.765 --> 0:47:50.485 whole different way of opening things up to people. So 0:47:50.525 --> 0:47:52.565 you can't help but feel that it is welcoming. 0:47:53.205 --> 0:47:55.965 I mean, as foolish as it would be to compliment 0:47:56.125 --> 0:47:59.005 into the Spider Verse, given my role here today, I 0:47:59.045 --> 0:48:02.165 do think that the Chris, the answer to your question 0:48:02.405 --> 0:48:06.285 is like Deadpool and Wolverine is just using the multiverse 0:48:06.325 --> 0:48:10.125 as an excuse to throw these two actors together, throw 0:48:10.125 --> 0:48:13.205 a lot of jokes together, Easter eggs for the sake 0:48:13.245 --> 0:48:16.924 of Easter eggs. Like it is really just the shameless 0:48:17.245 --> 0:48:20.445 excuse to create this movie in the first place. And 0:48:20.645 --> 0:48:23.325 what in the Spider Verse does so well is that 0:48:23.365 --> 0:48:27.005 it uses I mean, the multiverse here is an essential 0:48:27.085 --> 0:48:30.645 element of what this film is about and what it 0:48:30.845 --> 0:48:34.924 is saying. Another thing that makes Spider Man such a 0:48:35.245 --> 0:48:37.925 I think a reason that he does resonate in every 0:48:38.005 --> 0:48:41.765 form with people is again getting back to how frankly 0:48:41.805 --> 0:48:43.845 miserable he is as a person. Part of that is 0:48:43.845 --> 0:48:48.285 his loneliness. He is a lonely character, and I think 0:48:48.365 --> 0:48:51.285 a lot of certainly not me, I would have never 0:48:51.365 --> 0:48:53.765 felt this way as a thirteen year old boy, but 0:48:54.045 --> 0:48:57.645 would have been like feeling lonely and feeling like nobody 0:48:57.765 --> 0:49:01.325 understands you, and you're a weirdo, you're a nerd, you're 0:49:01.325 --> 0:49:05.725 a deep you're different, and you know that you're just lonely. 0:49:05.885 --> 0:49:08.405 And one of the beautiful things about into the Spider 0:49:08.485 --> 0:49:11.965 Verse is it uses that as kind of one of 0:49:12.005 --> 0:49:14.364 the most important themes of the movie. Over and over, 0:49:14.485 --> 0:49:18.925 when the characters, the Spider Men slash women slash Hams, 0:49:19.005 --> 0:49:22.165 introduce themselves, you know, they're always saying, I'm the one 0:49:22.245 --> 0:49:25.925 and the only Spider Man. That's how it begins. For 0:49:26.005 --> 0:49:27.925 the last however many years, I was the one and 0:49:27.965 --> 0:49:31.925 the only Spider Man. And then when Miles first meets 0:49:32.485 --> 0:49:36.685 the Peter Parker, the chris Pine Spider Man, the thing 0:49:36.725 --> 0:49:40.685 that he says to him is there, like me. I 0:49:40.765 --> 0:49:41.964 thought I was the only one. 0:49:42.205 --> 0:49:42.925 You're like me. 0:49:43.445 --> 0:49:45.285 I don't want to be. I don't think you have 0:49:45.325 --> 0:49:46.205 a choice, kid up. 0:49:46.405 --> 0:49:51.485 And that is the thing that every lonely comic book nerd, certainly, 0:49:51.485 --> 0:49:54.165 not me, but others, I suppose. I guess I'm not 0:49:54.325 --> 0:49:57.485 speaking from personal experience, but that is the thing that 0:49:57.605 --> 0:50:02.405 every comic book nerd thinks when they're or thought me 0:50:02.765 --> 0:50:05.365 when me, when I was in high school and comic 0:50:05.405 --> 0:50:08.405 books were not popular, and they were not big movies, 0:50:08.565 --> 0:50:11.165 and reading a comic book was you know, I might 0:50:11.205 --> 0:50:13.525 as well have put a big kick me sign around 0:50:13.565 --> 0:50:16.365 my chest if I was to be seen reading one. 0:50:16.445 --> 0:50:19.325 I hid it from the world. Nobody knew it was 0:50:19.365 --> 0:50:22.405 my secret shame. And then a new kid moved to 0:50:22.445 --> 0:50:25.844 school my junior year of high school, and he liked 0:50:25.885 --> 0:50:28.445 comics and he brought one to school and I was like, 0:50:28.525 --> 0:50:31.444 you should put that away. You don't understand what you're doing. 0:50:31.445 --> 0:50:33.285 And he's like, I don't care. I like comics. And 0:50:33.845 --> 0:50:36.805 I thought to myself, I thought I was the only one. 0:50:36.845 --> 0:50:41.085 You're like me. And so this sense of community, this 0:50:41.245 --> 0:50:46.005 sense of building an identity around beliefs and ideas and 0:50:46.045 --> 0:50:48.565 a love of Spider Man, is what the movie is 0:50:48.645 --> 0:50:52.965 ultimately about. And so the fact that how do you 0:50:53.005 --> 0:50:55.884 achieve that well through the multiverse by introducing all these 0:50:55.925 --> 0:51:00.965 other people who share this common beliefs and love, And 0:51:01.005 --> 0:51:04.325 that's why people love and admire Spider Verse. And at 0:51:04.405 --> 0:51:08.245 best they think dead Pool and Wolverine is an acceptable 0:51:08.405 --> 0:51:11.364 time waster, and at worst they think it is insufferable 0:51:11.405 --> 0:51:12.565 and annoying and smug. 0:51:12.965 --> 0:51:16.565 Yeah, I watched Deadpool and Wolverine on a plane and 0:51:16.645 --> 0:51:19.245 I still was like, I maybe like that time back, 0:51:19.485 --> 0:51:21.885 even if I'm sitting on this plane for a little longer. 0:51:22.005 --> 0:51:25.525 I recall you being higher on Deadpool two than I was. 0:51:25.605 --> 0:51:27.925 But yeah, I was. I mean, I didn't think it 0:51:27.965 --> 0:51:31.405 was breaking any new ground, but I appreciate its commitment 0:51:31.445 --> 0:51:34.364 to its own bit. I do appreciate commitment to the bit, 0:51:34.485 --> 0:51:38.325 but it has to be more than just making the money. 0:51:38.765 --> 0:51:41.485 But yeah, I mean just agree with everything Matt was 0:51:41.885 --> 0:51:44.165 just saying. I mean, like, that is it right? Like 0:51:44.405 --> 0:51:47.165 it is about being welcoming. It is about saying like, yeah, 0:51:47.165 --> 0:51:48.805 you're a part of it, Like you can be a 0:51:48.845 --> 0:51:50.965 part of this so easily, and that's part of what's 0:51:51.005 --> 0:51:51.805 beautiful about it. 0:51:51.925 --> 0:51:53.285 Well, as we come to the end of round one, 0:51:53.565 --> 0:51:58.885 I am going to score this one for Matt solely, 0:51:59.445 --> 0:52:03.325 not solely, but largely because of the phrase harmonic convergence, 0:52:03.485 --> 0:52:07.845 both about the way that doc Ox comments to Peter 0:52:07.925 --> 0:52:10.364 Parker present the theme of the movie without making it 0:52:10.405 --> 0:52:12.405 super obvious that they're speaking the theme of the movie, 0:52:12.805 --> 0:52:16.965 also echoed in the Oscar Wild on Broadway scene, and 0:52:17.005 --> 0:52:19.765 then what you're saying, now, this was actually a note 0:52:19.805 --> 0:52:22.165 you cited Matt from into this spider verse where one 0:52:22.205 --> 0:52:24.645 spider Man tells another, I'm proud of you. So take 0:52:24.645 --> 0:52:25.045 that away. 0:52:25.085 --> 0:52:26.364 I knew I shouldn't have said that. 0:52:26.445 --> 0:52:28.285 It's really just a point for Matt. It's less a 0:52:28.325 --> 0:52:29.525 point for Spider Man too. 0:52:30.525 --> 0:52:45.045 That's very very gracious of you. As we move into 0:52:45.125 --> 0:52:47.565 round two, the movies in our time, where we consider 0:52:47.605 --> 0:52:49.605 what these films have come to represent in the time 0:52:49.725 --> 0:52:53.005 since they were new, and this is there's there's some 0:52:53.085 --> 0:52:56.005 overlap with the screenplay category here, but I really want 0:52:56.005 --> 0:52:58.165 to dig into how each of these films stands in 0:52:58.325 --> 0:53:03.565 as a representation of Peter Parker or Peter Parker and 0:53:03.645 --> 0:53:06.085 Miles Morales. And you know, we've talked about this a 0:53:06.125 --> 0:53:08.245 little bit already, but it is very difficult to think 0:53:08.245 --> 0:53:12.845 of another fictional character where the screen interpretations have followed 0:53:12.965 --> 0:53:16.165 as hard upon or even in the case of Spider 0:53:16.285 --> 0:53:20.765 Verse and Tom Holland overlapped with one another. Yeah, you know, 0:53:21.085 --> 0:53:22.925 we just have a lot of examples, a lot of 0:53:22.965 --> 0:53:24.605 things that we can line up next to each other 0:53:24.645 --> 0:53:28.525 and try to assess which one is the most successful 0:53:28.565 --> 0:53:31.845 translation from one medium to another. And the way I 0:53:31.885 --> 0:53:34.165 want to go into this is, Matt, I think you 0:53:34.205 --> 0:53:36.925 said timeless. You said there was a period where the 0:53:36.965 --> 0:53:39.365 Raimy movies had fallen a little bit out of favor, 0:53:39.445 --> 0:53:43.085 and I see that, like they do feel unmoored in 0:53:43.165 --> 0:53:46.085 time to me, and not just because Spider Man three 0:53:46.245 --> 0:53:49.085 comes out two months before the first iPhone. I look 0:53:49.165 --> 0:53:52.165 this up. You know, it doesn't have as pronounced in 0:53:52.205 --> 0:53:55.844 anachronistic quality as like the Donner Superman where the daily 0:53:55.885 --> 0:53:58.725 Planet scenes might as well be his girl Friday, or 0:53:58.765 --> 0:54:00.965 in like the Burton Batman, where it's like it's nineteen 0:54:01.125 --> 0:54:03.605 eighty nine but it's also nineteen thirty nine and people 0:54:03.645 --> 0:54:06.965 are wearing fedoras on the sidewalk. But there is a 0:54:07.165 --> 0:54:10.685 like without making it a big design element. It does 0:54:10.765 --> 0:54:16.525 not feel like it's commenting specifically on two thousand and four. 0:54:16.725 --> 0:54:20.005 You know, it feels like this is an adult who 0:54:20.045 --> 0:54:24.924 is expressing his fondness for the initial lead Ditko era 0:54:25.045 --> 0:54:29.365 of this character from almost forty years ago. Do you 0:54:29.405 --> 0:54:30.405 see that as a strength? 0:54:30.645 --> 0:54:34.205 Yeah? Absolutely, And I think that the movie has aged 0:54:34.285 --> 0:54:36.884 really well. One of the things I am curious about 0:54:37.005 --> 0:54:40.565 is how well will into the Spider verse age. I mean, 0:54:40.725 --> 0:54:44.925 I think it still plays wonderfully right now. It is also, 0:54:45.045 --> 0:54:50.325 I would think, undeniably a cooler movie than Spider Man two. 0:54:50.405 --> 0:54:54.245 But cool does not always age well. Sometimes cool in 0:54:54.325 --> 0:54:58.285 one era can curdle over time, and I do wonder 0:54:58.325 --> 0:55:00.765 in twenty years how will it look. I don't know, 0:55:00.805 --> 0:55:03.485 it's an interesting thing to think about. It feels like 0:55:03.525 --> 0:55:06.485 Spider Man two and really all the Raymie Spider Man 0:55:06.525 --> 0:55:08.485 movies have already kind of gone through a cycle of 0:55:08.525 --> 0:55:12.645 them looking very kind of old fashioned and hokey, and 0:55:12.685 --> 0:55:15.485 that I feel like as people have seemingly gotten a 0:55:15.525 --> 0:55:18.844 little tired of the Marvel cinematic universe. You know, I 0:55:18.885 --> 0:55:21.005 still enjoy a lot of their movies, but the complaint 0:55:21.165 --> 0:55:23.245 that I hear from people who are not pathetic nerds 0:55:23.325 --> 0:55:25.925 like me are often that the movies all feel the same, 0:55:26.045 --> 0:55:29.165 they have this same kind of arch tone. And so 0:55:30.245 --> 0:55:32.485 the more that you hear that complaint, the more that 0:55:32.565 --> 0:55:35.325 the Raymy Spider Man movies they kind of hit better 0:55:35.325 --> 0:55:37.285 because it's like, you can they almost seem like an 0:55:37.325 --> 0:55:40.125 alternative to that. They come from a time before people 0:55:40.165 --> 0:55:43.805 felt like they needed to be making quips about how 0:55:43.845 --> 0:55:46.444 silly everything is, or is that really what you're gonna wear? 0:55:46.605 --> 0:55:50.325 Is that really your costume? Like that those kind of remarks. 0:55:51.285 --> 0:55:53.005 It would have been interesting if they were made just 0:55:53.045 --> 0:55:55.565 a few years later. To your point, Chris and Spider 0:55:55.605 --> 0:55:57.525 Man had a iPhone or something. You know, there are 0:55:57.525 --> 0:56:00.685 scenes involving payphones in this movie, and I suppose in 0:56:00.725 --> 0:56:05.085 some ways that dates them, but I don't know. I 0:56:05.125 --> 0:56:07.884 think that honestly, the first Spider Man movie is much 0:56:07.925 --> 0:56:11.525 more dated and kind of time stamped. It still has 0:56:11.565 --> 0:56:14.965 a timeless quality, but it is more time stamped than 0:56:15.165 --> 0:56:20.445 Spider Man two. The soundtrack is incredibly like nickelback heavy, 0:56:21.165 --> 0:56:25.045 really and you know, and some of the costuming feels 0:56:25.165 --> 0:56:27.605 very you know, like do the women all need to 0:56:27.645 --> 0:56:32.045 have bear mid drifts and tight shirts? And it feels 0:56:32.165 --> 0:56:35.365 much more like in that movie because it was the 0:56:35.365 --> 0:56:37.405 first Because, as we said, Sam Raimi was a guy 0:56:37.445 --> 0:56:40.885 whose biggest movie was like a fifty million dollar film. 0:56:41.445 --> 0:56:44.045 He didn't have the juice to do whatever he wanted. 0:56:44.085 --> 0:56:48.525 And there were some things like the soundtrack, like Kirsten 0:56:48.605 --> 0:56:52.844 Dunk's attire, where clearly the producers or the studio were like, 0:56:53.165 --> 0:56:55.605 this needs to be cool again. We got this is 0:56:55.605 --> 0:56:57.525 a movie for kids, We got to make this thing cool. 0:56:57.925 --> 0:57:00.485 And you can see the first movie was so successful 0:57:00.965 --> 0:57:03.325 that on Spider Man two they were like, you can 0:57:03.365 --> 0:57:07.125 do whatever you want. And the costuming has not dated. 0:57:07.645 --> 0:57:11.245 The music is much more kind of focused on the score, 0:57:11.885 --> 0:57:14.445 and it just it has a much more of a 0:57:14.525 --> 0:57:19.445 pleasantly timeless quality, all of this stuff in the Daily 0:57:19.525 --> 0:57:22.005 Bugle with j Jonah James and that could you know 0:57:22.045 --> 0:57:25.045 it's his girl Friday. You know, it's it's something out 0:57:25.045 --> 0:57:27.805 of a totally different era, but in a good way. 0:57:27.845 --> 0:57:31.205 It doesn't feel like it's tied to two thousand and 0:57:31.285 --> 0:57:35.765 four or anything. It just it feels like a distilled 0:57:36.085 --> 0:57:39.525 essence of Spider Man, you know, brought to the screen 0:57:39.725 --> 0:57:43.685 in live action. And I think that is the thing 0:57:43.805 --> 0:57:46.485 that I love about it when I watch it today. 0:57:47.125 --> 0:57:50.405 Well, and I mean to your point about how what's 0:57:50.485 --> 0:57:54.165 cool and one era will date that much faster. I mean, 0:57:54.245 --> 0:57:56.925 these movies, these first two Raimi movies are only coming 0:57:56.925 --> 0:58:00.245 out about a decade after the what becomes the Image 0:58:00.325 --> 0:58:03.405 era right of Marvel, where Todd McFarlane and Jim Lee 0:58:03.445 --> 0:58:06.165 and Eric Larsen and all these guys. Really I'm going 0:58:06.245 --> 0:58:08.445 to say, a dreadful era of comics, you know, where 0:58:08.485 --> 0:58:12.205 everything was extreme and totally the muscles and the guns 0:58:12.245 --> 0:58:15.605 and the breasts and everything got I mean, always exaggerated 0:58:15.645 --> 0:58:19.845 in comics, but took on this really like ridiculous kind 0:58:19.885 --> 0:58:24.285 of distracted quality. And maybe this is part of what 0:58:24.325 --> 0:58:26.605 goes around with Spider Man three, where apparently it's a 0:58:26.965 --> 0:58:29.525 avi Arod you know, one of the producers who is pushing. 0:58:29.285 --> 0:58:32.125 Yeah, right, Venom had to be in the movie. Sam 0:58:32.205 --> 0:58:33.645 Raimi doesn't care about Venom. 0:58:33.965 --> 0:58:34.165 Right. 0:58:34.325 --> 0:58:36.365 He turns him into a total joke. It's part of 0:58:36.405 --> 0:58:37.765 the charm of the movie in a way, as they 0:58:37.845 --> 0:58:39.525 forced him to use this character. And what does he do? 0:58:39.645 --> 0:58:42.005 You know, like Peter Parker is dancing around like what 0:58:42.045 --> 0:58:44.605 does Venom do? It turns him into an obnoxious adal 0:58:45.285 --> 0:58:48.725 Like I do kind of admire the way he turned 0:58:48.765 --> 0:58:52.525 that demand into something like he did it his way right, 0:58:52.565 --> 0:58:54.765 he could only do it as a samuraimithing. 0:58:55.325 --> 0:58:57.405 No, I mean, I salute Ramy for that, and I 0:58:57.605 --> 0:58:59.685 just like it. It's still I don't understand how the 0:58:59.725 --> 0:59:01.925 Venom movies have been so successful. 0:59:02.085 --> 0:59:04.765 Yeah, they stink. Look, I will say this though, for 0:59:04.845 --> 0:59:07.765 all the timeless quality of Spider Man two, this is 0:59:07.765 --> 0:59:11.165 a movie about the dangers of allowing artificial intelligence to 0:59:11.205 --> 0:59:14.645 make decisions for us in the form of doc Ock's arms. 0:59:15.085 --> 0:59:17.525 It is a movie about a scientist being so confident 0:59:17.605 --> 0:59:20.605 that anything he creates will be beneficial for all mankind, 0:59:21.005 --> 0:59:23.765 and thus does not stop even when confronted by obvious 0:59:23.885 --> 0:59:27.765 dangers of their work. So it is timeless, but it 0:59:27.845 --> 0:59:30.205 still plays pretty well in twenty twenty six. 0:59:30.445 --> 0:59:32.565 I think this is the moment where I can interject 0:59:32.365 --> 0:59:35.605 my point of comparison about avi Arod's appearances on the 0:59:35.605 --> 0:59:38.365 behind the scenes material of these two movies. Like I 0:59:38.445 --> 0:59:41.805 watched the special features on Spider Man two, and he's 0:59:41.845 --> 0:59:43.845 I don't know, he's in his fifties or maybe early 0:59:43.885 --> 0:59:45.845 sixties at that point, and he's just wearing like a 0:59:45.885 --> 0:59:47.845 normal like golf shirt and just looks like a man 0:59:47.885 --> 0:59:49.285 of his age, and he's kind of like, well, you know, 0:59:49.325 --> 0:59:51.885 we couldn't do doc Cock the first time is too complicated, 0:59:51.965 --> 0:59:54.525 but now we are doing DACA. And then you watch 0:59:54.645 --> 0:59:57.285 him on the promotional stuff into the Spider Verse fourteen 0:59:57.325 --> 1:00:00.045 years later, so he's got another fourteen years on him, 1:00:00.245 --> 1:00:02.805 but he is dressed like Miles Morales. He is wearing 1:00:02.925 --> 1:00:05.405 like a hoodie and a Spider Man T shirt and 1:00:05.445 --> 1:00:08.245 he's got like a Spider Man beanie cap on his head, 1:00:08.285 --> 1:00:11.605 and it is like totally hello, my fellow kids. It's like, 1:00:11.925 --> 1:00:14.365 you know, this is the Spider Man for today. Is 1:00:14.445 --> 1:00:19.845 totally hip and contemporary, and it is well, I mean 1:00:19.885 --> 1:00:23.445 I laughed, I was a used, So maybe maybe he wins. 1:00:24.605 --> 1:00:27.485 All right, Daisy, let's let's talk about that is there. 1:00:28.045 --> 1:00:31.005 I don't see anything dated now. I mean, admittedly into 1:00:31.005 --> 1:00:32.965 the Spider verses only a third as old as Spider 1:00:33.005 --> 1:00:34.645 Man two is. But I you know, looked at it 1:00:34.685 --> 1:00:37.645 again the other night. It's seven and a half years later. Now, 1:00:38.285 --> 1:00:41.285 there wasn't anything about it that seemed you know, a 1:00:41.285 --> 1:00:43.925 little naive or antiquated or whatever to me. What do 1:00:43.965 --> 1:00:44.325 you think? 1:00:44.605 --> 1:00:46.805 Yeah, I mean we're only, yeah, like you said, seven 1:00:46.845 --> 1:00:49.365 and a half years out since the movie came out, 1:00:49.485 --> 1:00:51.485 So I mean, yeah, to be fair, not as much 1:00:51.485 --> 1:00:54.645 time has passed, even as it feels like so much 1:00:54.725 --> 1:00:58.285 more time has passed than that just an life experience. 1:00:58.805 --> 1:01:01.285 But I was trying to pay particularly a course of 1:01:01.325 --> 1:01:04.565 attention to aspects of this kind of how do they 1:01:04.645 --> 1:01:06.845 use technology in the movie, you know, how do they 1:01:06.885 --> 1:01:09.485 do certain things? And I mean really like the biggest 1:01:09.565 --> 1:01:12.205 joke in terms of like tech that isn't like tech 1:01:12.285 --> 1:01:14.485 specifically for the movie is that they don't need to 1:01:14.525 --> 1:01:19.205 take a monitor with a desktop tower, which actually is 1:01:19.325 --> 1:01:22.325 really funny and plays well and also was kind of 1:01:22.325 --> 1:01:24.285 an older reference by the time it even happened in 1:01:24.285 --> 1:01:27.285 twenty eighteen. You know, Miles has a phone, but it 1:01:27.365 --> 1:01:30.405 is not something that is like over using plot points, 1:01:30.565 --> 1:01:32.925 So you know, as things continue to shift there, that's 1:01:33.005 --> 1:01:35.685 not necessarily going to be an issue. He's an artist 1:01:35.725 --> 1:01:39.645 who does use spray paint. He does tags on stickers 1:01:39.645 --> 1:01:42.605 that he sticks around town. That's been going on for 1:01:43.445 --> 1:01:45.965 decades at this point in terms of how kids tag 1:01:46.085 --> 1:01:48.925 up the city. So I do think that those aspects 1:01:48.965 --> 1:01:52.485 of the plot and that presentation of it will be great. 1:01:52.805 --> 1:01:57.525 The animation itself, as we've acknowledged, is like beautiful and 1:01:58.045 --> 1:02:02.045 very inventive, and they are calling back to the way 1:02:02.125 --> 1:02:04.645 that comics were printed back in the day. But that's 1:02:04.645 --> 1:02:06.485 not all they're doing. I mean, they're also mixing in 1:02:06.525 --> 1:02:09.525 other aspects, So I think the fact that they'd mixed those, 1:02:10.765 --> 1:02:13.485 I mean, it was just mind blowing to watch. And 1:02:13.965 --> 1:02:16.165 you know, when it first came out and when it 1:02:16.205 --> 1:02:18.165 was released, it was also released in three D, which 1:02:18.645 --> 1:02:20.885 I tend to forget just because I kind of forget 1:02:21.045 --> 1:02:22.805 about this whole push that we had on three D 1:02:22.965 --> 1:02:25.645 for a while. Really it was a beautiful three D experience, 1:02:25.885 --> 1:02:28.605 but it also still just looks great, and there are 1:02:28.605 --> 1:02:32.445 some shots where you see that you know, dotted part more, 1:02:32.565 --> 1:02:35.365 there are some shots where you see kind of a 1:02:35.405 --> 1:02:38.165 fuzziness more like they lean into all of it, and 1:02:38.205 --> 1:02:40.845 it's not only the one thing. I do think that, 1:02:40.885 --> 1:02:42.445 as much as I love the art, if it had 1:02:42.485 --> 1:02:46.485 been more of one of those than the other, and 1:02:46.565 --> 1:02:50.165 not so evenly and equally applied throughout the movie in 1:02:50.245 --> 1:02:53.645 multiple ways, that would be something I'd be worried about 1:02:53.685 --> 1:02:56.965 how age. But I don't think that that will age poorly, 1:02:57.845 --> 1:03:00.125 especially if I just think about it compared to like 1:03:00.165 --> 1:03:02.685 different animation, right, like, yes, you know, we have computer 1:03:02.725 --> 1:03:05.845 animation now that looks different than hand drawn animation. But 1:03:05.925 --> 1:03:08.925 the things that were the most stellar of their era, 1:03:09.405 --> 1:03:11.565 they might look a little older, but they usually still 1:03:11.565 --> 1:03:14.485 look really good. It's the stuff that they cheeked out 1:03:14.485 --> 1:03:16.765 on and didn't really take time that doesn't seem to 1:03:16.765 --> 1:03:20.565 age particularly well in animation. So I mean, visually, there's 1:03:20.605 --> 1:03:24.085 that I think of anything. The story itself, again is 1:03:24.125 --> 1:03:27.725 really welcoming of diversity in a way that feels really 1:03:27.765 --> 1:03:32.885 appropriate for twenty eighteen. But it's not hamphisted. Despite Spider 1:03:32.925 --> 1:03:36.485 Pig being in the movie that was not intended. I 1:03:36.605 --> 1:03:38.325 just realized what was happening as it happened. 1:03:38.445 --> 1:03:40.205 Do you float into the air when you smell the 1:03:40.245 --> 1:03:41.045 delicious past? 1:03:41.405 --> 1:03:45.485 I do? But I think the thing about it that 1:03:45.485 --> 1:03:47.685 that aspect of the movie that well age is really 1:03:47.765 --> 1:03:51.205 just more the belief that they would put that much 1:03:51.245 --> 1:03:53.805 money and time and attention into making a movie with 1:03:53.845 --> 1:03:57.045 that much diversity, right, Like, the story itself is not 1:03:57.525 --> 1:04:00.245 the problem. The delivery of the characters. You know, it's 1:04:00.285 --> 1:04:03.285 not like Miles goes and meets Obama, you know, like, 1:04:03.605 --> 1:04:08.125 it's not that kind of thing. But there is this 1:04:09.045 --> 1:04:11.445 heart that is kind of hard to believe. I mean, 1:04:11.445 --> 1:04:13.125 it's hard to believe that they kind of make anything 1:04:13.365 --> 1:04:16.165 good now with a big investment, But the idea of 1:04:16.165 --> 1:04:18.685 something like that getting green liked is probably the part 1:04:18.725 --> 1:04:20.965 that has aged the least believably right now. 1:04:21.125 --> 1:04:23.685 Now, Yeah, I mean, I don't really know whether you 1:04:23.685 --> 1:04:27.685 know Sony image animation, image works or whatever correct sequence 1:04:27.725 --> 1:04:29.485 of those words is. I don't know if that's a 1:04:29.525 --> 1:04:32.685 totally separate Basically, are these the people who said yes 1:04:32.725 --> 1:04:35.445 to this the same people who said yes to Morbius 1:04:35.485 --> 1:04:37.205 and right Craven the Hunter? 1:04:37.885 --> 1:04:40.685 Like, I don't know I. 1:04:40.605 --> 1:04:42.645 Mean, here we are having you know again, it's twenty 1:04:42.685 --> 1:04:45.165 twenty six. Here we are having a conversation again about 1:04:45.165 --> 1:04:47.885 a movie like Supergirl and going like, oh, no, are 1:04:47.885 --> 1:04:51.045 they gonna now stop making movies with women, because like 1:04:51.085 --> 1:04:54.125 we're back in that, so, you know. I think the 1:04:54.205 --> 1:04:56.965 story itself is in its own like timeless. It may 1:04:57.005 --> 1:04:59.805 not be classic, but it is timeless, and I think that. Yeah, 1:04:59.845 --> 1:05:01.965 the part that is the most jarring is just realizing 1:05:01.965 --> 1:05:03.845 that it wasn't that long ago that they were able 1:05:03.885 --> 1:05:08.365 to make something this crash and beautiful and fun with 1:05:08.605 --> 1:05:11.525 a character that wasn't just a white guy right at 1:05:11.565 --> 1:05:11.965 the center. 1:05:12.245 --> 1:05:19.565 I love you, Miles, Yeah, I know, Dad, see you Friday. 1:05:20.285 --> 1:05:21.885 You gotta say I love you back. 1:05:23.165 --> 1:05:26.645 I want to hear it, hear I love you, I 1:05:26.805 --> 1:05:36.645 love you, Dad, I love you. That's a copy tire 1:05:36.725 --> 1:05:37.565 shoes please. 1:05:37.685 --> 1:05:40.365 Well we started to kind of segue naturally into this anyway. 1:05:40.365 --> 1:05:43.005 But the other subcategory that I had for round two 1:05:43.485 --> 1:05:48.445 was cinematography slash visual effects slash animation. Again trying to 1:05:48.485 --> 1:05:52.565 compare apples and oranges here, but starting with Spider Man two, 1:05:52.605 --> 1:05:55.365 this movie looks good, right. The cinematographer is Bill Pope, 1:05:55.365 --> 1:05:57.765 who had worked on Dark Man and Army of Darkness 1:05:57.845 --> 1:06:00.885 with Ramy. It just shot stend Helm for him. Last 1:06:00.925 --> 1:06:04.165 year he did Clueless, He did the first three Matrix movies. 1:06:04.205 --> 1:06:06.725 He did Scott Pilgrim Versus The World, you know, which 1:06:06.765 --> 1:06:09.445 is another comic book movie that has kind of an 1:06:09.445 --> 1:06:13.165 interesting comic bookie visual language doesn't push that to the 1:06:13.245 --> 1:06:16.125 extent that Spider Verse does, but you certainly see the 1:06:16.165 --> 1:06:19.005 seeds of it there. And again, like the one Oscar 1:06:19.165 --> 1:06:22.245 that this movie got was for visual effects, which I 1:06:22.245 --> 1:06:24.765 think pulled up really well right up until the very end, 1:06:24.845 --> 1:06:27.365 like this extended shot of him, you know, swinging down 1:06:27.405 --> 1:06:30.405 the avenue towards danger with these pretty bad looking helicopters 1:06:30.405 --> 1:06:32.685 in the frame with him and some fire trucks and things, 1:06:32.725 --> 1:06:34.845 and you know, I'm looking at that and thinking you 1:06:34.885 --> 1:06:38.845 could just film real helicopters and put Spider Man in there, right, 1:06:38.885 --> 1:06:41.165 You don't have to digitally animate the whole thing, I 1:06:41.205 --> 1:06:44.165 don't think. But the thing that I really like among 1:06:44.205 --> 1:06:47.605 again these these Oscar winning visual effects is apparently most 1:06:47.685 --> 1:06:50.525 of the time doc Ox tentacles are puppets. I mean, 1:06:50.565 --> 1:06:53.605 they have to be CGI in some scenes, but they 1:06:53.605 --> 1:06:57.805 were practical on set puppets for a lot of it. 1:06:58.005 --> 1:07:00.445 And again, as you pointed out, Matt, that does bring 1:07:00.565 --> 1:07:05.365 some visual continuity with the Evil Dead, these satanic tree branches, 1:07:05.405 --> 1:07:08.765 who's whose pov were shown in these much less expensive 1:07:08.845 --> 1:07:11.445 but very inventive Sam Raimi movies. Why do you think 1:07:11.445 --> 1:07:14.925 this is the best visual representation of Spider Man live 1:07:14.965 --> 1:07:15.605 action movie? 1:07:15.765 --> 1:07:19.045 Yeah, well, the live action is probably a good qualifier theifer. 1:07:19.205 --> 1:07:23.085 I think that animation certainly has an edge. It's a 1:07:23.125 --> 1:07:28.005 lot easier to represent Spider Man's powers and everything he 1:07:28.085 --> 1:07:32.045 can do in animation, not just because they're drawing the characters, 1:07:32.045 --> 1:07:35.125 but also you can control the camera in such a 1:07:35.165 --> 1:07:38.765 more fluid way, and that's something you really you know, 1:07:38.805 --> 1:07:41.725 like rewatching into the Spider Verse this week, just so 1:07:42.165 --> 1:07:45.445 awed by not just the movements and the fluidity of 1:07:45.485 --> 1:07:48.805 all the characters in scenes where there's like five Spider 1:07:48.845 --> 1:07:50.525 Men all on the screen at the same time, but 1:07:50.565 --> 1:07:54.685 also how the camera dances with them at the same time. 1:07:54.725 --> 1:07:57.365 I think is really really beautiful. But I do think 1:07:57.525 --> 1:08:01.685 Spider Man two holds up very well visually a movie 1:08:01.725 --> 1:08:03.965 that's twenty years old. I do think some of the 1:08:04.485 --> 1:08:08.285 visual effects show their age a little bit you mentioned 1:08:08.325 --> 1:08:10.965 Bill Pope and the movie that some of the images 1:08:11.045 --> 1:08:13.085 like the CGI reminds me of. I always think of 1:08:13.605 --> 1:08:17.004 the Matrix Reloaded and the Burly Brawl. There's something about 1:08:17.045 --> 1:08:18.844 and it's Bill Pope. I don't know if it's him, 1:08:18.845 --> 1:08:20.964 it's the visual effects, if it's just the time period, 1:08:21.445 --> 1:08:25.925 something about the like CGI. Human beings in both of 1:08:25.925 --> 1:08:29.924 those movies always they seem and look and feel very similar. 1:08:29.965 --> 1:08:33.125 Something about their proportions are a little off. They seem 1:08:33.125 --> 1:08:36.405 a little like a little squat, a little wide. Maybe 1:08:36.805 --> 1:08:40.325 they seem a little rubbery. They're just artificial in a way. 1:08:40.805 --> 1:08:45.605 They don't quite pass the visual test. That said, I 1:08:45.725 --> 1:08:49.325 do think this movie and the first Sam Raimi Spider 1:08:49.365 --> 1:08:53.325 Man movie do not get enough credit for what they 1:08:53.645 --> 1:08:56.965 established in terms of the visual language of Spider Man 1:08:57.005 --> 1:09:01.325 that continues to be copying in every single movie and beyond. 1:09:01.805 --> 1:09:06.165 The video games of the Spider Man world are so 1:09:06.565 --> 1:09:12.405 indebted to the look and feel of those scenes, including 1:09:12.405 --> 1:09:14.925 the one you mentioned where Spider Man is swinging through 1:09:15.605 --> 1:09:18.445 a wide avenue with buildings doing all these cool moves. 1:09:18.805 --> 1:09:20.765 I'm pretty sure it was the Spider Man two video 1:09:20.805 --> 1:09:23.804 game that was tied to this movie was the first 1:09:23.845 --> 1:09:27.485 time the game was like an open world game where 1:09:27.565 --> 1:09:29.805 you could swing around as much as you want and 1:09:29.845 --> 1:09:32.205 you had objectives and places to go. But also part 1:09:32.245 --> 1:09:34.605 of the fun of the game was you could just 1:09:34.725 --> 1:09:37.965 swing around Manhattan and it looked as best as they 1:09:38.005 --> 1:09:40.685 could make it at the time, and it gave you 1:09:40.765 --> 1:09:46.125 that feeling of freedom and excitement and fluidity and movement 1:09:46.445 --> 1:09:50.764 and kinetic energy that the movies have, which you could 1:09:50.805 --> 1:09:54.285 never get in even the greatest Spider Man comic by 1:09:54.325 --> 1:09:58.165 Stan Lee and Steve Ditko and John Romita and whoever else. 1:09:58.845 --> 1:10:02.125 As beautiful as the artwork is, it is inherently a 1:10:02.165 --> 1:10:06.725 series of static panels and static images, and they can 1:10:06.925 --> 1:10:10.564 do some amazing and spectacular and web of things to 1:10:11.285 --> 1:10:13.885 mimic and get as close as they can to movement. 1:10:14.285 --> 1:10:16.965 They have tricks and brilliant tools that they use to 1:10:17.005 --> 1:10:20.445 do that, but they can never move. The movement happens 1:10:20.445 --> 1:10:24.405 in your mind. That's what the reader brings. And the 1:10:24.485 --> 1:10:27.604 first I mean I can remember seeing as a huge 1:10:27.645 --> 1:10:31.045 Spider Man dork sitting in the theater watching the first 1:10:31.365 --> 1:10:33.725 movie and just being kind of blown back in my 1:10:33.885 --> 1:10:38.525 chair that that's what Spider Man looks like when he swings, 1:10:39.005 --> 1:10:42.765 and to this day, however, many movies later, they're all 1:10:42.845 --> 1:10:46.045 kind of cribbing it. It looks cooler and into the 1:10:46.045 --> 1:10:50.205 Spider Verse, but they are still kind of using the 1:10:50.245 --> 1:10:52.285 mechanics of it and the idea of it, you know. 1:10:52.325 --> 1:10:54.765 The end of Into the Spider Verse ends with a 1:10:54.845 --> 1:10:58.405 final kind of monologue from Miles as he's swinging through 1:10:58.445 --> 1:11:01.485 New York. It looks amazing. It looks better than Spider 1:11:01.485 --> 1:11:04.644 Man two. But the idea of concluding a Spider Man 1:11:04.685 --> 1:11:08.285 movie on that kind of an image and sequence comes 1:11:08.325 --> 1:11:10.885 from these movies, and that's how they all did it, 1:11:11.405 --> 1:11:13.365 and they're still doing it to this day, and it 1:11:13.445 --> 1:11:15.724 is kind of an if it ain't broke, don't fix 1:11:15.765 --> 1:11:18.764 it kind of thing, And I think Into the Spider 1:11:18.845 --> 1:11:21.564 Verse maybe iterated on it in a way that, you know, 1:11:21.645 --> 1:11:24.845 because the tools are just that much better and it 1:11:24.925 --> 1:11:27.205 does look better now. I think you have to give 1:11:27.245 --> 1:11:30.765 a certain amount of credit to Spider Man one and 1:11:30.925 --> 1:11:35.165 two for being so kind of groundbreaking in establishing this 1:11:35.325 --> 1:11:38.125 language that every single one of these movies since then 1:11:38.165 --> 1:11:39.165 has continued to use. 1:11:39.605 --> 1:11:42.165 Yeah, I'm sorry for interrupting, but this seems relevant. I'm 1:11:42.205 --> 1:11:44.645 seeing here that Elon Musk has posted on x that 1:11:44.765 --> 1:11:48.965 groc will create a full length, historically accurate Spider Man 1:11:49.005 --> 1:11:49.925 into the Spider. 1:11:49.725 --> 1:11:52.644 App It's going to that's gonna be awesome. 1:11:52.685 --> 1:11:55.725 I can't I no more woke Spider Man. 1:11:55.845 --> 1:11:58.924 Better as long as it's still under two hours. 1:11:59.125 --> 1:12:01.565 So I did get to talk to when Into the 1:12:01.605 --> 1:12:04.485 Spider Verse came out. I did an All Things Considered 1:12:04.485 --> 1:12:06.405 piece where it was the only time in my entire 1:12:06.445 --> 1:12:08.564 career where everyone that I asked the interview said yes. 1:12:08.605 --> 1:12:10.285 So I had this problem that I have never had 1:12:10.285 --> 1:12:12.765 before since of trying to fit all of these big 1:12:12.805 --> 1:12:15.564 wigs into a four minute radio piece. So I mean 1:12:15.565 --> 1:12:18.085 I had that's I actually listened the other night to 1:12:18.165 --> 1:12:20.045 this like twenty five minute interview that I did with 1:12:20.085 --> 1:12:23.205 Brian Michael Bendis that is like ten seconds of the 1:12:23.325 --> 1:12:27.605 radio story. But I did have Peter Ramsey was explaining 1:12:27.645 --> 1:12:31.245 to me technically to the extent that you know a 1:12:31.325 --> 1:12:33.365 layperson like me can understand. It was like, why does 1:12:33.405 --> 1:12:36.925 this movie look so different? What is so unique about 1:12:36.965 --> 1:12:39.885 the visual palette the animation of Into the Spider Verse. 1:12:39.885 --> 1:12:42.965 Why does this not look like any other animated movie 1:12:43.205 --> 1:12:45.925 that I've seen? And one of the things that I'm 1:12:45.965 --> 1:12:49.125 sure this was much simplified for my benefit, but he 1:12:49.205 --> 1:12:52.085 said that at least sometimes they were animating twelve frames 1:12:52.085 --> 1:12:55.245 per second instead of twenty four, which sounds like that 1:12:55.285 --> 1:12:58.085 would be corner cutting, you know, cost cutting, less work, 1:12:58.165 --> 1:13:02.925 But I mean it does have this incredible graphic effect. 1:13:03.125 --> 1:13:05.885 Another thing that's more amusing to me now than it 1:13:05.925 --> 1:13:08.725 was then, as they said that apparently motion blur was 1:13:08.765 --> 1:13:11.325 a standard part of the digital animation palette and they 1:13:11.365 --> 1:13:13.845 just left that out. They didn't do that. So as 1:13:13.885 --> 1:13:17.005 with your parents' TV, when you turn off motion smoothing, 1:13:17.605 --> 1:13:21.485 Spider Man cartoons look a lot better. All right, Well, 1:13:21.485 --> 1:13:24.245 this feels like you know, gilding a radioactive lily here. 1:13:24.285 --> 1:13:27.644 But so, Daisy, yes, is this the best that Spider 1:13:27.685 --> 1:13:29.445 Man has ever looked on screen? 1:13:30.045 --> 1:13:33.005 I mean, I think so. But you make some great 1:13:33.005 --> 1:13:36.325 points about the visuals, and I was already speaking about 1:13:36.365 --> 1:13:38.885 how I think the animation itself will hold up. But 1:13:39.245 --> 1:13:41.325 let's talk a little bit about the choices that were 1:13:41.325 --> 1:13:44.525 made instead, right, and focus on that for right now. So, 1:13:44.885 --> 1:13:48.285 as you're describing, they made very specific choices in terms 1:13:48.325 --> 1:13:51.285 of how they did the animation to make it have 1:13:51.325 --> 1:13:53.965 a different look and feel. It's very layered. I think 1:13:53.965 --> 1:13:56.885 that that layeredness also really plays well to the idea 1:13:56.925 --> 1:14:00.125 of being in a multiverse to begin with, right, it 1:14:00.205 --> 1:14:03.245 makes that much more real and textured. I mean, if anything, 1:14:03.245 --> 1:14:05.405 that's one of the that's honestly one of the big 1:14:05.405 --> 1:14:07.845 complaints about the fact that we are being eaten over 1:14:07.885 --> 1:14:11.165 the head with multiverse movies that show us different places 1:14:11.205 --> 1:14:13.564 that don't actually look that different from each other. That's 1:14:13.605 --> 1:14:15.564 not even the focus of the movie, right, We're not 1:14:15.605 --> 1:14:21.045 really spending time in the other Spider people's worlds. But 1:14:21.485 --> 1:14:24.685 when those worlds are colliding, the art of what that 1:14:24.765 --> 1:14:28.525 looks like really feels the most viscerally true to what 1:14:28.605 --> 1:14:32.205 it might be if all of these overlapping universes were 1:14:32.245 --> 1:14:34.684 just coming upon each other. And then we can think 1:14:34.685 --> 1:14:38.085 about the visual representation of the characters right the way 1:14:38.125 --> 1:14:40.085 they chose to draw them. And again, we have more 1:14:40.125 --> 1:14:42.405 than one Peter Parker in the movie to begin with. 1:14:42.645 --> 1:14:45.405 The first Peter Parker that we meet, we only meet 1:14:45.445 --> 1:14:48.285 him briefly, but it comes across that like he's like 1:14:48.685 --> 1:14:52.285 a competent, confident Peter Parker who kind of seems to 1:14:52.285 --> 1:14:54.725 have it together and so much of that just comes 1:14:54.725 --> 1:14:56.645 across and like in the way they draw him. And 1:14:56.685 --> 1:14:59.564 then when we finally meet our Peter B. Parker, who 1:14:59.565 --> 1:15:01.805 we spend the rest of the movie with the Jake 1:15:01.885 --> 1:15:05.045 Johnson voice one, right, like they look like they could 1:15:05.085 --> 1:15:08.845 be brothers, but also you can see that he's had 1:15:08.885 --> 1:15:13.205 a rougher time of it. Yeah, right, Like that aspect 1:15:13.245 --> 1:15:16.405 of the visual storytelling is also just really beautifully thought 1:15:16.445 --> 1:15:20.564 out and executed so well. And again like in terms 1:15:20.605 --> 1:15:22.564 of making so that you don't have to understand everything. 1:15:22.605 --> 1:15:24.525 I mean, they don't go through the process in the 1:15:24.565 --> 1:15:27.325 movie of trying to explain to you that Kingpin holds 1:15:27.325 --> 1:15:30.885 Spider Man responsible for why he doesn't have his wife 1:15:30.965 --> 1:15:33.965 and son anymore. They don't make an effort to explain that. 1:15:34.285 --> 1:15:38.245 But visually you can tell that Kingpin is not necessarily 1:15:38.285 --> 1:15:40.885 supposed to be a good guy, and the type of 1:15:41.285 --> 1:15:44.045 imposing figure that he is and why he is able 1:15:44.125 --> 1:15:47.325 to have the effect that he has on the characters 1:15:47.325 --> 1:15:49.765 in the movie is sold in part by how they 1:15:49.885 --> 1:15:55.245 choose to show him. Right, Miles looks so realistic and 1:15:55.285 --> 1:15:58.604 not Uncanny Valley at all at the same time, right, 1:15:58.725 --> 1:16:01.245 like we are of a similar background we are both 1:16:01.485 --> 1:16:04.725 black and Puerto Rican. And when I look at just 1:16:05.165 --> 1:16:08.405 his face and the nose, the brows, all of it, 1:16:08.525 --> 1:16:13.325 like it feels so real in a way that's just beautiful. 1:16:13.645 --> 1:16:16.525 And so you see all of those details and they're 1:16:16.685 --> 1:16:20.405 just so fun and they are already in themselves doing 1:16:20.405 --> 1:16:22.965 a level of staring. You know, I said earlier that 1:16:23.205 --> 1:16:25.804 this movie has a lot to tell, but it actually 1:16:26.165 --> 1:16:29.285 it does. It shows so much. And the way that 1:16:29.325 --> 1:16:32.205 they chose to animate these characters, the way that they 1:16:32.285 --> 1:16:35.525 chose to tell the visual story of that also does 1:16:36.005 --> 1:16:39.765 such incredible work. And you know, we have seen so 1:16:39.845 --> 1:16:42.925 many Peter Parker's they make reference to all of these 1:16:42.925 --> 1:16:45.205 and yet the version that I'm following in the movie, 1:16:45.605 --> 1:16:48.965 I also I believe it. I believe that he makes 1:16:49.005 --> 1:16:51.445 sense as a Peter Parker, right, Like, so these things 1:16:51.485 --> 1:16:54.525 really sit with the character in a way that feels 1:16:54.605 --> 1:16:59.205 really really lovely and true and doesn't just feel like 1:16:59.245 --> 1:17:01.605 they were drawn like, oh, you know, they should be 1:17:01.645 --> 1:17:03.245 this kind or that kind. I mean, look at what 1:17:03.285 --> 1:17:06.685 they do with Spider Ham and Spider Noir. I mean, 1:17:06.725 --> 1:17:09.805 Spider Noir comes in and it does feel like an 1:17:09.965 --> 1:17:13.085 entirely different texture is happening, it suddenly feels like you 1:17:13.125 --> 1:17:15.925 are in a noir film Kenny Parker, I. 1:17:15.885 --> 1:17:16.804 Mean the anime. 1:17:17.245 --> 1:17:21.125 Yeah, anime, And they went more specifically with an anim 1:17:21.165 --> 1:17:24.764 may style, right, Like, there were actually other Asian characters 1:17:24.845 --> 1:17:26.445 like Silk that they could have brought in, but they 1:17:26.485 --> 1:17:30.125 went with something that would diversify the type of animation 1:17:30.205 --> 1:17:32.005 that they were doing. So just at every stage, I 1:17:32.045 --> 1:17:34.525 felt like they stayed very true so what the core 1:17:34.565 --> 1:17:38.085 intention seemed to be, and that just works out in 1:17:38.125 --> 1:17:42.125 this really beautiful mosaic. But again, further's the storytelling in 1:17:42.165 --> 1:17:46.045 itself while also being like just visually so pleasing. I mean, 1:17:46.085 --> 1:17:47.965 it's so so fun to look at. 1:17:48.165 --> 1:17:49.445 My name is Kenny Parker. 1:17:49.605 --> 1:17:51.724 I'm from New York in the year thirty one forty five. 1:17:51.925 --> 1:17:54.165 I have a psychic link with Excider, who lives inside 1:17:54.165 --> 1:17:57.564 my father's robot, and we're best friends forever. 1:18:00.365 --> 1:18:02.724 It really does kind of confound the work of writing 1:18:02.765 --> 1:18:05.125 and talking about these movies, because you know, we keep 1:18:05.165 --> 1:18:08.325 falling back on these cliches to try to describe visuals 1:18:08.325 --> 1:18:11.405 that we just don't have very good language to describe 1:18:12.285 --> 1:18:15.925 specifically what we're seeing. But I mean the difficulty of 1:18:16.005 --> 1:18:19.085 showing us five or six different Spider variants in a frame, 1:18:19.125 --> 1:18:20.885 and they're each drawn in their own style, and somehow 1:18:20.885 --> 1:18:23.125 it still reads, you know, it doesn't just look like 1:18:23.125 --> 1:18:25.805 a like a mess that you can't even process. My 1:18:25.965 --> 1:18:28.685 favorite visual from this movie, I think is miles like 1:18:28.805 --> 1:18:32.045 ill fitting store bought Spider Man costume, you know, where 1:18:32.085 --> 1:18:34.325 the hood is just like draping off of him and 1:18:34.365 --> 1:18:36.125 it's like not quite fully zipped up in the back 1:18:36.165 --> 1:18:37.925 and there's like a price tag hanging off of it. 1:18:37.965 --> 1:18:41.205 And that's contrasted with even the out of shape Jake 1:18:41.285 --> 1:18:44.085 Johnson Spider Man, who's half wearing sweatpants, he still has 1:18:44.165 --> 1:18:47.445 half of a a proper Spider Man costume. I'm at 1:18:47.485 --> 1:18:49.564 some point, after seeing this movie so many times, I 1:18:49.565 --> 1:18:52.845 do have thoughts like it's probably really hard to draw 1:18:53.005 --> 1:18:55.645 someone in ill fitting clothes, Like it's probably you know 1:18:55.685 --> 1:18:58.125 the way that superhero comics traditionally, it just looks like 1:18:58.165 --> 1:19:00.965 a naked person who has a logo over their chest 1:19:01.085 --> 1:19:03.845 or something and some different bright colors to indicate that 1:19:03.885 --> 1:19:07.325 they're wearing clothes. But that's probably really hard to draw, right, 1:19:07.685 --> 1:19:10.085 Like the drape of a shirt that that's two sizes 1:19:10.125 --> 1:19:10.925 too big for you. 1:19:10.885 --> 1:19:13.325 Well, and there's also this scurring natural way that they 1:19:13.405 --> 1:19:16.325 even go into the initial art, like the art from 1:19:16.445 --> 1:19:19.005 the comics itself. Right, Like you mentioned the artist Sarah 1:19:19.165 --> 1:19:21.684 Shelley is the one who drew Spider Man. They literally 1:19:21.725 --> 1:19:25.724 re enact the cover of that first book. I heard 1:19:25.765 --> 1:19:28.285 Brian Michael bundis like, and it's beautiful, and it isn't 1:19:28.285 --> 1:19:30.885 something that because of the way the story is being told, 1:19:30.885 --> 1:19:33.245 feels like they are now going, oh hey, everybody, look 1:19:33.285 --> 1:19:35.645 at this. Here comes the cover Like it is in 1:19:35.685 --> 1:19:39.605 and of itself a beautiful storytelling moment and feels completely 1:19:39.805 --> 1:19:42.685 like a natural transition from what has been happening in 1:19:42.805 --> 1:19:45.085 previous scenes. I mean, to be able to do that 1:19:45.725 --> 1:19:48.765 is just a level of mastery that is like so impressive. 1:19:48.845 --> 1:19:51.725 I just I love when somebody respects their medium and 1:19:51.725 --> 1:19:53.165 they just really went for it. 1:19:53.685 --> 1:19:55.485 Yeah, I mean, I think we kind of look for 1:19:55.525 --> 1:19:57.965 that now. We look for them to quote famous covers 1:19:58.005 --> 1:20:01.245 or famous panels visually in comic book movies. I mean 1:20:01.325 --> 1:20:04.605 to the point that there's that montage and Deadpool and 1:20:04.645 --> 1:20:06.685 Wolverine where they do it several times in a row 1:20:06.685 --> 1:20:08.485 and it's like, Okay, too many you know this was 1:20:08.485 --> 1:20:11.445 funny if you know the first three or whatever. I mean, 1:20:11.525 --> 1:20:15.764 I remember the surprise of when we see the Kingpin 1:20:16.165 --> 1:20:19.684 in this movie, it's the Bill san Kevit's like painted 1:20:19.765 --> 1:20:23.525 Kingpin from a Daredevil graphic novel. It's not even I mean, 1:20:23.525 --> 1:20:25.085 I know it was. Kingpin is also a villain in 1:20:25.125 --> 1:20:28.165 Spider Man comics, but that just made me think, Oh God, like, 1:20:28.205 --> 1:20:30.245 what else am I missing here? Since that's such a 1:20:30.285 --> 1:20:32.805 specific I was like, there must be ten other of 1:20:32.845 --> 1:20:35.925 these that I'm not picking up on because I haven't 1:20:35.965 --> 1:20:38.525 read as many comics in the last fifteen years as 1:20:38.565 --> 1:20:42.565 I did, you know, between nineteen eighty eight and twenty 1:20:42.645 --> 1:20:45.845 ten or whenever. But I mean, I did like that 1:20:45.845 --> 1:20:48.725 feeling of there's more for you to catch up here. 1:20:48.765 --> 1:20:50.165 You know, you need to lean forward, you need to 1:20:50.205 --> 1:20:51.085 open your eyes wider. 1:20:51.565 --> 1:20:54.245 You do get the sense at the big final fight 1:20:54.725 --> 1:21:00.285 when I think it's Scorpion who says to Spider Ham like, 1:21:00.365 --> 1:21:03.245 what are you some kind of silly cartoon? And Spider 1:21:03.285 --> 1:21:07.245 Han's responses you got a problem with cartoons. You feel 1:21:07.285 --> 1:21:10.765 like he's maybe speaking for the people who made this 1:21:10.885 --> 1:21:14.684 movie and who believe that animation is a art form. 1:21:15.005 --> 1:21:18.205 Unto itself capable of much more than it is often 1:21:18.405 --> 1:21:21.965 given credit for or given the space to be. Much 1:21:22.045 --> 1:21:25.885 like comics, I mean so often comics are you know, were, 1:21:26.045 --> 1:21:30.285 but still are often kind of dismissed as juvenile and 1:21:30.565 --> 1:21:34.684 only superheroes and only this disposable thing for children when 1:21:34.725 --> 1:21:37.685 they are that is what they very often are, But 1:21:37.725 --> 1:21:39.885 they are quite capable of so much more and have 1:21:39.965 --> 1:21:44.845 so much more potential that is often unexploited. And that 1:21:45.165 --> 1:21:49.085 is often true of animated movies as well. But one 1:21:49.125 --> 1:21:52.644 of the things that I think people you know, really 1:21:52.685 --> 1:21:55.525 loved about into the Spider Verse is that it shows 1:21:55.565 --> 1:22:00.445 you just how much you can do with animation in 1:22:00.525 --> 1:22:03.644 terms of story, in terms of look. I mean, look, 1:22:03.965 --> 1:22:06.724 I have young kids. We watch a lot of Disney 1:22:06.765 --> 1:22:09.805 animated movies. A lot of them are wonderful. They all 1:22:10.005 --> 1:22:12.885 kind of look the same and they all kind of 1:22:12.925 --> 1:22:15.365 follow a lot of the same stuff. So just the 1:22:15.365 --> 1:22:18.925 fact that this movie, again using the multiverse as a tool, 1:22:19.565 --> 1:22:23.045 is able to be like because they're all from different universes, 1:22:23.085 --> 1:22:26.085 they're all going to be animated differently. It's such a 1:22:26.165 --> 1:22:30.125 beautiful use of animation that if it's not impossible in 1:22:30.365 --> 1:22:34.245 live action, it would be incredibly difficult, incredibly cost prohibitive. 1:22:35.085 --> 1:22:39.765 Here it's just a seamless element and a tool of 1:22:39.805 --> 1:22:43.604 a broader project. And I think Daisy's talked about how 1:22:43.605 --> 1:22:46.445 there's so much show don't tell in this film, and 1:22:46.485 --> 1:22:49.245 I think that is a perfect example of it. Is 1:22:49.285 --> 1:22:52.925 that you are using a fundamental aspect of this medium 1:22:52.925 --> 1:22:56.085 you could not you know, Spider Verse was a comic book. 1:22:56.125 --> 1:22:59.684 There was a comic book called Spider Verse. In concept 1:22:59.725 --> 1:23:02.645 of lots of Spider Man from other universes, it is 1:23:02.805 --> 1:23:05.245 like this, but in terms of story it is nothing 1:23:05.365 --> 1:23:07.525 like this. The story of the original Spider Verse was 1:23:07.645 --> 1:23:11.965 nothing like this movie. You could not tell this story 1:23:12.045 --> 1:23:14.405 this way in a comic book. It could only be 1:23:14.485 --> 1:23:17.564 done in animation. So you have to kind of give 1:23:17.565 --> 1:23:18.925 it its props for that, right. 1:23:19.005 --> 1:23:21.285 We keep reading about how these have been like the 1:23:21.325 --> 1:23:23.845 mad Max Fury Road of animated movies or something where 1:23:23.965 --> 1:23:26.805 animators are just dropping dead at their desks. I mean, 1:23:27.285 --> 1:23:30.285 I like, I again, I have a very limited understanding 1:23:30.365 --> 1:23:33.205 of what the pipeline for animated movies is. And I 1:23:33.885 --> 1:23:36.245 I mean we know that that Pixar movies are years 1:23:36.245 --> 1:23:40.525 and years of development and revision right, But I mean 1:23:40.565 --> 1:23:42.805 I wonder, like, is that the main reason for the 1:23:42.845 --> 1:23:45.365 delay is that just the fact that each character and 1:23:45.405 --> 1:23:48.525 each it like has to have its own there's no 1:23:48.605 --> 1:23:51.045 economy of scale, right, you can't apply this to the 1:23:51.165 --> 1:23:53.405 It's like you have to do as much work as 1:23:53.405 --> 1:23:55.604 you would for a full animated feature for just one 1:23:55.685 --> 1:24:00.085 small section of the movie. Maybe well, and. 1:24:00.085 --> 1:24:02.805 There's something to be said, I think for the fact 1:24:02.805 --> 1:24:05.445 that like they didn't have to do it the way 1:24:05.485 --> 1:24:07.845 they did it right, Like if I think about the 1:24:07.965 --> 1:24:10.245 rainy Spider Man movies, for example, I mean, there really 1:24:10.325 --> 1:24:13.085 was this thing of like, can these comic book movies 1:24:13.125 --> 1:24:15.125 even work? I think you're sot right Matt about how 1:24:15.245 --> 1:24:16.645 like you could see some of the stuff in the 1:24:16.645 --> 1:24:19.845 first one. He definitely had a lot more say in 1:24:19.925 --> 1:24:22.684 the second one in terms of making certain things happen. 1:24:22.765 --> 1:24:25.885 But like I was saying earlier, the people weren't like 1:24:25.965 --> 1:24:29.605 clamoring for an animated Spider Man movie, Like you know, 1:24:29.645 --> 1:24:31.965 people were not shaking the table going like we need 1:24:32.005 --> 1:24:34.645 this and you have to get it right. So for 1:24:34.685 --> 1:24:37.965 them to bring this level of care and attention to 1:24:38.045 --> 1:24:42.405 it something that just wasn't necessarily even really wanted outside 1:24:42.405 --> 1:24:47.085 of seemingly sony just expanding their Spider Man footprint is 1:24:47.365 --> 1:24:48.525 pretty incredible. 1:24:49.165 --> 1:24:51.925 Yes, all right, well, so we need to come to 1:24:51.925 --> 1:24:54.884 an end of round two here and again I am 1:24:54.925 --> 1:24:59.245 just running up against the great difficulty of setting your 1:24:59.645 --> 1:25:03.085 comments and opposition to one another. But I'm going to 1:25:03.125 --> 1:25:06.285 score this round for Daisy. I think on the basis 1:25:06.365 --> 1:25:10.125 of what you said about just embracing the comic bookie 1:25:10.845 --> 1:25:13.285 aspects of this rather than shying away from them, I 1:25:13.405 --> 1:25:18.165 found very very persuasive. So we have a dramatically convenient 1:25:18.565 --> 1:25:19.205 one to one. 1:25:21.605 --> 1:25:22.564 That's why the. 1:25:22.605 --> 1:25:25.085 Spider games. 1:25:27.285 --> 1:25:32.405 Just like guys. 1:25:33.645 --> 1:25:37.125 As we proceed into round three, the movies for all time, 1:25:37.125 --> 1:25:42.564 where we consider how these movies echo through eternity iconic moments, 1:25:42.645 --> 1:25:45.844 let's let's tally up our our iconic moments. I almost 1:25:45.925 --> 1:25:48.925 want to take like the l train rescue from Spider 1:25:48.965 --> 1:25:51.645 Man two off the board, since we get that homaged 1:25:51.725 --> 1:25:55.644 so explicitly in in into the Spider verse. But I can't. 1:25:55.885 --> 1:25:59.685 So this is just a purely instinctive, subjective kind of 1:26:00.125 --> 1:26:02.285 throw them out. Matt, I say, Spider Man two, what 1:26:02.445 --> 1:26:04.005 moments do you think of? 1:26:04.845 --> 1:26:08.165 I mean it's funny, Yes, the train scene was you know, 1:26:08.365 --> 1:26:10.724 very that was got a lot of attention at the time, 1:26:10.765 --> 1:26:14.165 and it is really it's a great action sequence, and 1:26:14.205 --> 1:26:17.525 you know the ending where he's unmasked and the people 1:26:17.605 --> 1:26:18.925 on the subway. 1:26:18.965 --> 1:26:20.365 Kind of we won't tell nobody missing. 1:26:20.605 --> 1:26:24.085 Right When I think Daisy was talking earlier about Spider 1:26:24.085 --> 1:26:27.525 Man as this kind of living person in New York City, 1:26:27.565 --> 1:26:30.245 I really feel like, while he's always been associated with 1:26:30.325 --> 1:26:32.605 New York, I feel like the Raimie movies and the 1:26:32.645 --> 1:26:35.165 way that they are kind of these post nine to 1:26:35.165 --> 1:26:38.405 eleven narratives of resilience in New York City, and the 1:26:38.405 --> 1:26:41.005 way the new average New Yorkers in those movies are 1:26:41.045 --> 1:26:43.804 always on Spider Man's side, even when Jay Jonah Jamison 1:26:43.925 --> 1:26:47.205 is screaming he's a man ass that the no one, 1:26:47.565 --> 1:26:50.005 the true New Yorkers never buy it, and they're always 1:26:50.045 --> 1:26:52.845 defending him against the bad guys in these movies. I 1:26:52.845 --> 1:26:55.764 think is a big reason why you see people dressing 1:26:55.885 --> 1:26:59.365 up in Spider Man costumes at Nick's parades and things 1:26:59.405 --> 1:27:02.644 like that from now on. I don't think without those 1:27:02.725 --> 1:27:05.165 movies and the way that New York is portrayed in them, 1:27:05.205 --> 1:27:09.685 I'm not sure he would be considered so quintessentially a 1:27:09.765 --> 1:27:12.725 New Yorker and this like person that people would be 1:27:12.885 --> 1:27:15.485 dressing up as. If not maybe they would. But that's 1:27:15.525 --> 1:27:18.085 something I've thought about when I saw a Spider Man 1:27:18.525 --> 1:27:22.405 hanging out at Nick's celebrations. 1:27:22.005 --> 1:27:23.884 On top of school buses, Yeah. 1:27:23.725 --> 1:27:26.485 Exactly, and on hanging off of lamp posts and things. 1:27:26.805 --> 1:27:30.565 To me, though, I love there are so many wonderful 1:27:31.285 --> 1:27:34.604 little things in in Spider Man two are the things 1:27:34.605 --> 1:27:36.485 that I always think about. You know, there is a 1:27:36.525 --> 1:27:40.925 shot in this movie when Peter is thinking about going 1:27:40.965 --> 1:27:44.365 to see Mary Jane on Broadway and he opens the 1:27:44.405 --> 1:27:48.245 door to his closet and he has the suit and 1:27:48.285 --> 1:27:51.405 the Spider Man suit hanging in the closet side by side. 1:27:51.725 --> 1:27:55.445 I mean that is that one image is Spider Man. 1:27:55.925 --> 1:27:59.085 You don't need anything else Like that literally sums up 1:27:59.125 --> 1:28:04.285 the entire the drama, the melo drama, all of it 1:28:04.365 --> 1:28:08.445 is in that one shot, and I always like it 1:28:08.525 --> 1:28:11.165 always kind of makes me smile every time I see 1:28:11.365 --> 1:28:13.765 that image. It's literally a single image. It could be 1:28:13.805 --> 1:28:17.085 a panel in a comic. It's so great. I really 1:28:17.165 --> 1:28:19.805 like we haven't talked a ton about the Peter and 1:28:19.885 --> 1:28:23.805 Mary Jane's means In Spider Man two, I really really 1:28:23.925 --> 1:28:27.445 love the chemistry and the connection between Toby maguire and 1:28:27.525 --> 1:28:30.925 Kirsten Dunst. I know they were a couple in real 1:28:30.925 --> 1:28:34.804 life at some point around the making of the first movie. 1:28:34.925 --> 1:28:36.765 I know they were not together at the time of 1:28:36.805 --> 1:28:39.445 this movie, and I almost feel like it gives a 1:28:39.445 --> 1:28:43.445 little bit of like really pleasant friction to their connection 1:28:43.485 --> 1:28:45.604 in this film, where you can tell they have a connection, 1:28:45.965 --> 1:28:48.325 but they also have a lot of like scenes where 1:28:48.365 --> 1:28:50.485 like she's like, Crapper, get off the pot here, what's 1:28:50.525 --> 1:28:53.725 going on here? Like she's annoyed with him? And I 1:28:53.765 --> 1:28:54.925 love that aspect. 1:28:55.445 --> 1:28:56.725 The line is do you love me? 1:28:56.845 --> 1:28:57.085 Matt. 1:28:57.125 --> 1:28:58.684 It's not Crapper, you love the point? 1:28:58.925 --> 1:28:59.605 Do you love me? 1:29:01.045 --> 1:29:05.805 Look, I'm not, I'm not. I know, stan Lee, I'm 1:29:05.845 --> 1:29:07.405 no Alvin Sargent. What can I say? 1:29:07.805 --> 1:29:10.205 Kiss me, kiss you? 1:29:11.485 --> 1:29:15.365 I need to know something, just one kiss. 1:29:15.805 --> 1:29:17.725 I mean, when Stanley writes it, it's do you love me? 1:29:17.925 --> 1:29:20.365 Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point. 1:29:21.125 --> 1:29:21.445 Yeah. 1:29:21.605 --> 1:29:25.085 So I think of the first Raymie Spider Man as 1:29:25.205 --> 1:29:29.285 like the really very ditcho Y Spider Man, and I 1:29:29.285 --> 1:29:31.564 think of the second movie as the very John Ramita 1:29:31.765 --> 1:29:36.005 Spider Man. That's the one where the awkward teen emotions 1:29:36.125 --> 1:29:41.205 kind of flower into this big romance and melodrama. Mary 1:29:41.285 --> 1:29:44.045 Jane is now, you know, a beautiful leading lady on 1:29:44.085 --> 1:29:47.965 Broadway and what is this dork doing kind of chasing 1:29:47.965 --> 1:29:51.125 her around? But it somehow works. So I love all 1:29:51.165 --> 1:29:53.245 of their scenes. I love the you know, like the 1:29:53.325 --> 1:29:58.365 detail of her poster, like like her advertising poster is 1:29:58.405 --> 1:30:01.005 hanging all over New York, so that wherever he goes, 1:30:01.085 --> 1:30:03.684 no matter what he does, he's always reminded of her. 1:30:04.045 --> 1:30:06.405 He can't escape this woman that he's tried to like 1:30:06.485 --> 1:30:08.845 block out. I can't be with her. I have to 1:30:08.845 --> 1:30:12.005 be Spider Man. And everywhere he goes, it's like that 1:30:12.085 --> 1:30:14.804 naked gun line. You know, everywhere I look, something reminds 1:30:14.845 --> 1:30:17.245 me of her, And except in this movie as literal, 1:30:17.285 --> 1:30:20.485 because her face is staring at him from every construction 1:30:20.605 --> 1:30:26.565 site and every billboard where they're seeing, Yeah, a beautiful, 1:30:26.845 --> 1:30:29.365 lovely little touch. And then I guess the last thing 1:30:29.365 --> 1:30:31.365 I'll throw out as another thing that I just love 1:30:31.445 --> 1:30:35.365 that really marks it as a Sam ramiish movie is 1:30:36.205 --> 1:30:39.045 I think Daisy was saying she doesn't love Toby Maguire's 1:30:39.165 --> 1:30:42.205 Peter Parker Spider Man, and he certainly is not the 1:30:42.245 --> 1:30:46.325 funniest Spider Man. He's not a great wise cracker. But 1:30:46.405 --> 1:30:51.644 I think Sam Raimi really played to his strengths in 1:30:51.885 --> 1:30:54.205 Spider Man two. And I think what he does is 1:30:54.245 --> 1:30:57.564 he makes the movie around him very funny, and he 1:30:57.645 --> 1:31:01.845 makes Peter and Toby the butt of every joke. Again, 1:31:01.885 --> 1:31:04.285 he's a sadist. He loves to torture him. But like 1:31:04.845 --> 1:31:07.485 you think of the scene where he's hired to take 1:31:07.765 --> 1:31:12.485 photographs of what turns out to be MJ getting engaged 1:31:12.645 --> 1:31:14.245 to Jjo and Jamison's son. 1:31:14.485 --> 1:31:16.165 Ladies and gentlemen, and I just want you all to 1:31:16.205 --> 1:31:20.965 know that the beautiful miss Mary Jane Watson just agree 1:31:21.125 --> 1:31:21.724 to marry. 1:31:21.525 --> 1:31:23.085 Me the astronaut. 1:31:23.165 --> 1:31:27.245 Yes, the world's youngest astronaut is astronaut spoiler alert. 1:31:27.325 --> 1:31:29.245 He also becomes a wolf man at one point in 1:31:29.285 --> 1:31:31.644 the comics, but really that's not important right now. 1:31:31.525 --> 1:31:33.165 Real real, boring, real boring. 1:31:33.245 --> 1:31:34.885 Physical astronaut stuff. 1:31:35.005 --> 1:31:37.125 Of course, I'm glad that that MJ's dumped him, like 1:31:37.205 --> 1:31:40.885 the moment that Peter just expressed any any reciprocal interest 1:31:40.885 --> 1:31:42.885 at all, because that guy is, come on, he's an 1:31:42.885 --> 1:31:43.685 empty spacesuit. 1:31:43.685 --> 1:31:46.285 But I love. In that scene, he is, you know, 1:31:46.685 --> 1:31:49.325 a tray of appetizers and he reaches out to grab 1:31:49.325 --> 1:31:52.245 one and someone always grabs the last time, and then 1:31:52.285 --> 1:31:54.165 a drink comes by on a tray. He's like, oh, 1:31:54.245 --> 1:31:56.645 a drink, but it's actually like the discarded drink and 1:31:56.685 --> 1:32:00.965 it's empty. And there almost every scene has a moment 1:32:01.045 --> 1:32:06.205 where Peter is getting beat up, getting knocked down, falling 1:32:06.245 --> 1:32:09.445 flat on his face, looking like a fool. And I 1:32:09.485 --> 1:32:12.445 think that it is the perfect use of Toby maguire 1:32:12.485 --> 1:32:16.885 as this kind of awkward, somewhat stiff, but very sincere guy. 1:32:17.565 --> 1:32:20.525 That's how you kind of build a funny Spider Man 1:32:20.605 --> 1:32:24.045 movie around him fighting with Bruce Campbell in the theater 1:32:24.085 --> 1:32:27.445 another example we mentioned, Like, all of those scenes I 1:32:27.485 --> 1:32:30.365 think works so well in a movie that at times 1:32:30.445 --> 1:32:33.205 is very touching and emotional, like it is also so 1:32:33.365 --> 1:32:36.725 much funnier than the first Spider Man movie. So I mean, 1:32:36.725 --> 1:32:39.965 I could go, I could literally just mention a thousand scenes, 1:32:40.005 --> 1:32:42.085 but I feel like I'm talking way too much, so 1:32:42.085 --> 1:32:43.005 I'm going to stop now. 1:32:43.125 --> 1:32:47.644 All right, Daisy, your iconic moments from into the Spider Verse. 1:32:47.645 --> 1:32:48.205 What do you got? 1:32:48.445 --> 1:32:50.684 We talked a lot about the visuals and I think 1:32:50.925 --> 1:32:53.885 you know again, moments like when Miles is fully, truly 1:32:53.925 --> 1:32:57.645 embracing himself in the beautiful animated shot that reenacts the 1:32:57.685 --> 1:33:00.525 cover of the first Miles Moralism. Things like that are 1:33:00.805 --> 1:33:04.045 incredibly memorable. But the other things that stick with me 1:33:04.125 --> 1:33:07.365 are things that just felt really true about the world, right, 1:33:07.445 --> 1:33:10.285 Like I love that so many of the jokes feel 1:33:10.325 --> 1:33:12.885 really right for New York. Right there's the part where 1:33:13.205 --> 1:33:16.485 right after Miles has met Peter B. Parker for the 1:33:16.525 --> 1:33:19.965 first time, and he's dragging him along, like they land 1:33:20.045 --> 1:33:23.285 on the ground and everybody's just still kind of walking 1:33:23.285 --> 1:33:25.645 around them, and Miles is like, maybe it could go 1:33:25.725 --> 1:33:29.045 around all right, thanks New York, because they don't, like 1:33:29.125 --> 1:33:32.085 it's just like it's such a great moment. And even 1:33:32.205 --> 1:33:35.925 that whole sequence where he's dragging him around, like, you know, 1:33:35.965 --> 1:33:38.325 it's the kind of joke that in an MCU movie 1:33:38.365 --> 1:33:39.684 would be played a little differently. 1:33:39.885 --> 1:33:42.885 Looks like a child drenched, like Spider Man dragging a 1:33:43.085 --> 1:33:44.604 homeless corpse behind a train. 1:33:44.765 --> 1:33:46.965 Then you're like, I believe that a New York cop 1:33:47.005 --> 1:33:49.564 would actually just be that way, Like that feels right, 1:33:49.685 --> 1:33:52.365 you know, So I love those aspects of the humor, 1:33:52.405 --> 1:33:55.045 and then of course you have just how fun those 1:33:55.045 --> 1:33:57.885 intros are, right every single time they introduce a character, 1:33:58.285 --> 1:34:01.045 every single one, you know, okay for the last time, 1:34:01.645 --> 1:34:04.085 just one last time, and then they give you this 1:34:04.205 --> 1:34:07.644 amazing little bit of backstory that tells you so much, 1:34:07.685 --> 1:34:10.844 that also pays so much homage and manages to actually 1:34:10.845 --> 1:34:13.645 get you like caught up. And they're really smart with 1:34:13.685 --> 1:34:15.845 the pacing of them. Right by the time we get 1:34:15.885 --> 1:34:19.645 to Spider Ham and Spider mar and Kenny Parker, you 1:34:19.645 --> 1:34:22.365 know they're doing them across the frames at the same 1:34:22.405 --> 1:34:25.564 time with the different pace. Like it is both beautiful 1:34:25.565 --> 1:34:28.365 in its storytelling and incredibly memorable in terms of like, 1:34:28.565 --> 1:34:30.485 oh what did I learn about that character? Like who 1:34:30.605 --> 1:34:32.845 was this? You actually have something quick that you can 1:34:32.885 --> 1:34:35.525 refer back to. It also uses the art of comic 1:34:35.565 --> 1:34:37.965 books in it, So, I mean, there's just so many 1:34:38.325 --> 1:34:41.724 incredibly fun moments in this movie. There's he took a bagel. 1:34:41.845 --> 1:34:45.005 It's so stupid, Like, there's just so many fantastic that 1:34:45.245 --> 1:34:49.005 guy took a bagel, Like, there's so many fun moments 1:34:49.045 --> 1:34:52.845 like that in this movie. And I truly do think that, 1:34:52.885 --> 1:34:57.125 like ultimately, because we are seeing kind of what Peter 1:34:57.245 --> 1:35:00.005 Parker would be like, you know, just if the story 1:35:00.525 --> 1:35:03.245 stopped for a minute and you just watched him really 1:35:03.285 --> 1:35:06.485 get beat up. It just feels like the truest Peter 1:35:06.685 --> 1:35:09.885 Parker to me, right, Like he is a sad tech, 1:35:09.925 --> 1:35:11.965 but he's still really funny. But you could see how 1:35:11.965 --> 1:35:14.285 those jokes are kind of like a deflection and a 1:35:14.325 --> 1:35:18.245 defense mechanism. But his anxiety and his lack of confidence 1:35:18.365 --> 1:35:21.564 is real even as his commitment is there. And so 1:35:22.045 --> 1:35:24.045 the way that they're able to play with that humor 1:35:24.405 --> 1:35:26.564 and then call back on those lines, right, I mean, 1:35:26.605 --> 1:35:28.885 it is the way these things call back on each other. 1:35:28.925 --> 1:35:30.564 I mean, it's tight. It might as well be Shawn 1:35:30.605 --> 1:35:32.965 of the Dead or they're just like, we basically told 1:35:33.005 --> 1:35:34.885 you everything that will happen. You did not realize that 1:35:34.885 --> 1:35:36.445 that's what we were doing, and now all of those 1:35:36.445 --> 1:35:38.525 things will happen in order. I mean a lot of 1:35:38.525 --> 1:35:42.085 that happens in into the Spider Verse. So I just 1:35:42.125 --> 1:35:45.405 think it's like incredibly merrole, both in terms of its 1:35:45.445 --> 1:35:49.165 place and its characters and its visuals, and then the 1:35:49.205 --> 1:35:52.325 when you tie them all together, the moments are just 1:35:52.445 --> 1:35:54.925 they really like pop and stick with you and make 1:35:54.965 --> 1:35:57.005 you want to make a reference. And then, of course, 1:35:57.285 --> 1:36:00.205 arguably I think the greatest post credit scene ever, which 1:36:00.285 --> 1:36:03.845 is the re enactment of a meme. Like somehow they 1:36:03.885 --> 1:36:06.684 still manage to surprise you by bringing out the Spider 1:36:06.725 --> 1:36:09.965 Man pointing at each other, which feels even better because 1:36:09.965 --> 1:36:12.085 you just watch a multiverse Ace movie. 1:36:12.445 --> 1:36:15.725 WHOA what, I'm Spider Man. I need you to come 1:36:15.765 --> 1:36:18.445 with the heck, I just told you that. Listen, listen, 1:36:18.485 --> 1:36:19.365 I'm from the future. 1:36:19.725 --> 1:36:22.165 Dare you point at me? You were pointing first, rude 1:36:22.205 --> 1:36:23.685 to point, you know. 1:36:23.725 --> 1:36:26.165 To pull that kind of Internet humor in twenty eighteen, 1:36:26.245 --> 1:36:30.885 and for to actually be appropriate and not just excessive. 1:36:31.005 --> 1:36:32.405 Is let's cherry on top? 1:36:32.485 --> 1:36:36.725 Right there, you're pointing at me right now, Look at 1:36:36.725 --> 1:36:42.604 your finger different than normal. I didn't want to come 1:36:42.645 --> 1:36:44.965 out of this missing twenty eighteen Twitter. 1:36:44.845 --> 1:36:47.644 But no, there was a time. 1:36:48.285 --> 1:36:51.885 Yeah, it was beautiful, all right, very very last point, 1:36:51.925 --> 1:36:55.564 since this is this is a game of inches here, Matt, 1:36:55.605 --> 1:36:57.365 are you going to tell me that the stan Lee 1:36:57.485 --> 1:36:59.604 cameo and Spider Man two is better than the Stanley 1:36:59.645 --> 1:37:00.885 cameo and into the Spider verse. 1:37:01.045 --> 1:37:03.285 No, that would be foolish to attempt such a thing. 1:37:03.605 --> 1:37:05.965 I mean, the Spider Man two cameo is a blink 1:37:06.005 --> 1:37:08.125 and you miss it kind of thing. I mean, it 1:37:08.205 --> 1:37:10.445 was from before that was like a you know, like 1:37:10.525 --> 1:37:14.525 a requirement, perhaps literally a contractual requirement. I'm not sure. 1:37:14.925 --> 1:37:15.365 Yeah. 1:37:15.405 --> 1:37:18.125 So No, when they do it in the DC movies, 1:37:18.325 --> 1:37:19.165 it is where. 1:37:19.205 --> 1:37:20.765 Or in a movie like he had nothing to do with, 1:37:20.845 --> 1:37:23.765 like Big Hero six, where it's like you didn't create 1:37:23.805 --> 1:37:27.405 these characters. Doing year stan now the one and into 1:37:27.445 --> 1:37:30.564 the Spider Verse is vastly superior, especially because it kind 1:37:30.565 --> 1:37:32.525 of makes fun of Stanley a little bit, which is 1:37:33.205 --> 1:37:35.845 I think by that point was extremely appropriate to kind 1:37:35.845 --> 1:37:39.965 of poke fun at his huxtery ness. By that point 1:37:40.285 --> 1:37:42.205 I was all in favor of it. I really like 1:37:42.285 --> 1:37:42.804 that scene. 1:37:43.205 --> 1:37:48.365 All right, Daisy, what I don't know, would you like 1:37:48.445 --> 1:37:51.125 to would you like to graciously suggest that no, no 1:37:51.565 --> 1:37:56.325 Spider Man took that guy's pizza and is more the 1:37:56.405 --> 1:38:00.365 Bullpen Bulletin's excelsior essence of Stanley than telling. 1:38:00.165 --> 1:38:03.885 You, well, I mean I would if it really felt 1:38:03.885 --> 1:38:06.965 like there was some fun, little genisque that we weren't 1:38:07.045 --> 1:38:10.205 quite grabbing onto. But besides the fact that, I think, 1:38:10.205 --> 1:38:12.085 you know, like what Matt said about they show him 1:38:12.085 --> 1:38:14.925 as this little huckster also really feels right. I mean, 1:38:14.965 --> 1:38:18.445 it's just so funny. So he both is delivering the 1:38:18.445 --> 1:38:21.005 heart message of the movie right and at the same 1:38:21.125 --> 1:38:24.604 time they're like kind of making reference to like no refunds, 1:38:24.645 --> 1:38:26.125 don't mess with this guy's money. 1:38:26.245 --> 1:38:29.564 Yeah, I'm going to miss him. 1:38:29.645 --> 1:38:33.285 Yeah we were friends. You know, can I return it? 1:38:33.325 --> 1:38:37.485 If it doesn't fit, It always fits eventually. 1:38:38.445 --> 1:38:41.405 Again, these are some deft hands that made this movie. 1:38:41.725 --> 1:38:44.205 It really shows that of like it both comes across 1:38:44.205 --> 1:38:48.445 as like completely loving and also like wink wink, Like, hey, 1:38:48.485 --> 1:38:51.485 before this guy was the old guy that we all 1:38:51.485 --> 1:38:53.564 had to pay homage to, like there was some stuff 1:38:53.565 --> 1:38:56.325 about him that people didn't well and the right. 1:38:56.405 --> 1:38:58.485 Like he took the checks and kind of kept his 1:38:58.485 --> 1:39:00.605 mouth shut, and you know, Steve did go and for 1:39:00.645 --> 1:39:04.085 a long time Jack Kirby like famously did not exactly. 1:39:04.285 --> 1:39:06.285 Yeah, and the movie pole with so much love to 1:39:06.325 --> 1:39:08.405 pull that off as well. Fantastic. 1:39:23.885 --> 1:39:26.045 Well, we come to the judgment here, and this is 1:39:26.085 --> 1:39:28.045 a this is a tough one. This is a real 1:39:28.245 --> 1:39:31.725 handbringing one. And I want to thank both advocates for 1:39:31.765 --> 1:39:35.765 the substance and passion of their their scholarship. But to 1:39:35.805 --> 1:39:38.725 my great surprise, I think tonight. 1:39:38.485 --> 1:39:42.445 The court is going to rule in favor of Matt 1:39:42.725 --> 1:39:47.245 because only because it is very difficult for me to 1:39:47.285 --> 1:39:50.245 imagine into the Spider Verse existing, as you said in 1:39:50.285 --> 1:39:54.205 your opening statement, Matt without the foundation of this sort 1:39:54.245 --> 1:40:00.285 of very solid type a satisfying superhero movie. It is 1:40:00.445 --> 1:40:04.085 the best example of the simple version, right, and it 1:40:04.165 --> 1:40:08.925 probably underserves it too, because that appearance of simplicity is 1:40:08.925 --> 1:40:11.245 the result of so many good decisions and so much 1:40:11.845 --> 1:40:14.644 so much hard work and a trial and error process 1:40:14.645 --> 1:40:18.285 in the form of the first film I love into 1:40:18.285 --> 1:40:22.724 the Spider Verse, and again, like presumably the entire Raimi 1:40:23.165 --> 1:40:27.365 Spider cycle is the Spider Verse. But I did not 1:40:27.445 --> 1:40:30.845 think there was any possible way that, given all those obstacles, 1:40:30.965 --> 1:40:34.485 that Spider Man two could triumph. And yet that is 1:40:34.525 --> 1:40:37.005 the court's ruling. I thank you both. 1:40:37.565 --> 1:40:40.205 You know, I've sometimes said that I believe the iPod 1:40:40.325 --> 1:40:42.925 is a more important vention than the iPhone because we 1:40:42.925 --> 1:40:44.885 wouldn't have gotten there about it. So I got it. 1:40:44.965 --> 1:40:46.525 I completely understand in. 1:40:46.485 --> 1:40:49.405 Twenty twenty six, give me an iPod with no connectivity 1:40:49.405 --> 1:40:49.685 at all. 1:40:49.805 --> 1:40:52.844 But I think it's very fair to say that Spider 1:40:52.885 --> 1:40:56.205 Man two, you know, is the great Peter Parker movie, 1:40:56.205 --> 1:40:58.685 and it could not be improved upon, And into the 1:40:58.685 --> 1:41:00.965 Spider versus the great Miles Morales movie, and it could 1:41:01.005 --> 1:41:03.125 not be improved upon. And we need them both. That's 1:41:03.325 --> 1:41:05.365 that's the way I feel. To me, there are always 1:41:05.365 --> 1:41:08.205 one A and one B. And when I said I 1:41:08.205 --> 1:41:11.085 could have argued the other side, I easily could have. 1:41:11.245 --> 1:41:14.645 I love both of these movies very much. There is 1:41:14.685 --> 1:41:18.205 no there's no loser here. There are only winners for 1:41:18.365 --> 1:41:21.405 us for having both of these incredible movies and our 1:41:21.565 --> 1:41:24.885 lives and just rewatching them this week for this was 1:41:24.965 --> 1:41:29.805 like so delightful. I'm just just so happy rewatching Spider Man. 1:41:30.605 --> 1:41:33.405 What a joy. I hope I feel half this good 1:41:33.525 --> 1:41:35.885 watching the new one. I don't know if I will, 1:41:36.005 --> 1:41:36.684 but I hope. 1:41:36.765 --> 1:41:36.845 So. 1:41:38.525 --> 1:41:40.405 See, I thought you were spoiling it for us when 1:41:40.445 --> 1:41:43.485 you were talking about Gwen Stacy zombies and you. 1:41:43.445 --> 1:41:46.325 Know, Night of the Living ned they should have taken that, 1:41:46.645 --> 1:41:47.725 and that would have been the way to go. 1:41:48.005 --> 1:41:50.725 You New York critics tend to see stuff high are 1:41:50.885 --> 1:41:52.285 we do down here in the Sticks. 1:41:52.365 --> 1:41:55.485 So I didn't know, not this time, how much. 1:41:55.365 --> 1:41:59.005 Intel you you actually had Matt give us the title 1:41:59.045 --> 1:42:01.205 of your imminent new book again and anything else you'd 1:42:01.245 --> 1:42:02.045 like to plug please. 1:42:02.405 --> 1:42:06.085 Yeah, it's called Funny Business. It's got a long subtitle that, 1:42:06.245 --> 1:42:10.165 honestly I sometimes mangled myself, so funny Business. And it's 1:42:10.205 --> 1:42:14.205 all about the two thousands era of Hollywood comedies, the 1:42:14.365 --> 1:42:17.725 frat Pack era, if you will. Although the members of 1:42:17.805 --> 1:42:21.245 the frat Pack hate that name, so don't say it 1:42:21.405 --> 1:42:25.005 out loud in their presence. They'll get angry. But that's 1:42:25.005 --> 1:42:28.165 what the book is about. It comes out on October sixth. 1:42:28.285 --> 1:42:31.445 You can pre order it now. And yeah, I'm still 1:42:31.485 --> 1:42:34.365 working for screen Crush green crush dot com and I 1:42:34.485 --> 1:42:39.045 do co host the sister podcast to this one, Film 1:42:39.045 --> 1:42:42.925 Spotting SVU. We restarted it earlier this year. It's me 1:42:43.005 --> 1:42:46.205 and Jordan Hoffman talking about streaming movies and it's a 1:42:46.245 --> 1:42:48.245 lot of fun. I'm really enjoying it. We recorded an 1:42:48.245 --> 1:42:52.925 episode this morning. I have been talking all day. My 1:42:53.245 --> 1:42:55.165 voice is so tired. 1:42:55.565 --> 1:42:58.085 Will you ever be released from that bathroom? 1:42:58.405 --> 1:43:01.644 Yes? I've been sitting in this bathroom for eight hours 1:43:01.645 --> 1:43:04.205 today and I just I'm very tired. 1:43:06.045 --> 1:43:08.365 I prefer to think of us as the secretly Evil 1:43:08.445 --> 1:43:12.245 Uncle podcast of Film Spotting SVU, rather than the sister 1:43:12.925 --> 1:43:15.845 podcast Daisy What would you like to plug? Where can 1:43:15.885 --> 1:43:16.845 listeners find your work? 1:43:16.965 --> 1:43:19.925 Yeah, so I work at Slate where I'm working with 1:43:19.965 --> 1:43:22.925 two shows that I love. One is called Icymi and 1:43:23.005 --> 1:43:27.085 it's a show about the Internet and Internet culture. Our 1:43:27.085 --> 1:43:29.325 tagline used to be We're very online, so you don't 1:43:29.365 --> 1:43:31.285 have to be, but honestly, who among us is not 1:43:31.485 --> 1:43:34.445 very online these days, So we've really been just trying 1:43:34.485 --> 1:43:37.285 to keep the Internet fun because frankly, we do deserve it, 1:43:37.645 --> 1:43:40.405 and that is a good time. Definitely check that out. 1:43:40.445 --> 1:43:42.285 It comes out twice a week. And then I also 1:43:42.485 --> 1:43:44.885 work with the long running show Death, Sex, and Money, 1:43:45.205 --> 1:43:48.085 which used to be a part of WNYC and has 1:43:48.085 --> 1:43:53.045 since moved over to Slate. And so if you love interesting, strange, 1:43:53.125 --> 1:43:57.845 real stories from people going deep about their weirdest experiences 1:43:57.885 --> 1:44:01.925 and feelings, it is beautiful and fun. And we just 1:44:01.925 --> 1:44:04.805 did an episode called The Dog Detective, and we did 1:44:04.805 --> 1:44:07.445 another one earlier this year called Death, Snakes and Money, 1:44:07.925 --> 1:44:10.485 and it's for a show that talks about death and 1:44:10.565 --> 1:44:14.085 sex and money. It is just really fun. So those 1:44:14.165 --> 1:44:17.045 are beautiful podcasts that you can check out. And I 1:44:17.085 --> 1:44:19.405 am very proud to work on them behind the scenes. 1:44:19.805 --> 1:44:21.685 All right, well, I will look for you at the 1:44:21.765 --> 1:44:25.645 brand New Day screening. Shirley, Shirley, Yeah, will you be 1:44:25.645 --> 1:44:26.445 coming in costume? 1:44:26.805 --> 1:44:28.405 You know? I always try to, but I have too 1:44:28.485 --> 1:44:31.365 much hair. It's not easy to get a mask on 1:44:31.485 --> 1:44:32.644 over the big mound of hair. 1:44:33.005 --> 1:44:35.085 It always fits, events always. 1:44:34.845 --> 1:44:38.405 Fits eventually, but by the end of the movie, like 1:44:38.405 --> 1:44:39.724 I still got to see out of the ice. 1:44:40.765 --> 1:44:42.685 Well, thank you both for being here. This has been 1:44:43.245 --> 1:44:45.125 so much fun and the excuse to talk about these 1:44:45.165 --> 1:44:48.644 movies is welcome. When to invite listeners to join us 1:44:48.645 --> 1:44:51.085 for our next movie, death Match. When in advance of 1:44:51.125 --> 1:44:53.845 the September release of Don't Look Back and Anger, the 1:44:53.925 --> 1:44:57.645 documentary about Oasis' twenty twenty five reunion tour, two of 1:44:57.645 --> 1:45:00.285 the greatest concert films in history, both from directors who 1:45:00.285 --> 1:45:03.045 would go on to become critical darlings. Plug In It 1:45:03.165 --> 1:45:06.965 is the Mandalorian and Grogu star Marty Scorsese and the 1:45:07.045 --> 1:45:12.845 band in the Last Waltz, How He Shall Forever Be introduced? Yeah, 1:45:13.005 --> 1:45:16.405 versus Jonathan Demi's Talking Heads concert films stop making sense. 1:45:16.485 --> 1:45:19.445 Someone will be limping around on Cripple Creek. Someone's house 1:45:19.485 --> 1:45:21.925 is getting burned down. It'll truly be a case of 1:45:21.965 --> 1:45:27.885 life during wartime on our next movie, Deathmatch. Movie Deathmatch 1:45:27.925 --> 1:45:30.564 is produced by Chris Klemick, who is Me, and by 1:45:30.565 --> 1:45:33.725 Golden Joe Desso. Without Golden Joe, the show wouldn't go. 1:45:34.165 --> 1:45:37.845 It is executive produced by Adam Kempinar and Sam van Holgren. 1:45:38.085 --> 1:45:41.005 My quest to find rhyming nicknames for them both is ongoing.