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Speaker 1: Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of the show.

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Speaker 3: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 3: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 3: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 2: you'll access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and

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Speaker 2: all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

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Speaker 3: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 3: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com. Good morning, everybody, Happy New Year. We have

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Speaker 3: an amazing show for everybody today.

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Speaker 4: What do we have?

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Speaker 5: Crystal feels good to be back in the stadium?

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Speaker 3: Does it feels great to be back reflecting our muscle

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Speaker 3: or on the didn't want it?

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Speaker 5: Do you want it?

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Speaker 3: We're here to do it with all of you, and

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Speaker 3: I wouldn't rather, I would rather, I would not rather

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Speaker 3: do it with anyone.

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Speaker 5: Thank you, Soger same.

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Speaker 2: So we are actually just going to focus on Venezuela

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Speaker 2: for the entire show today. From every angle that you

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Speaker 2: could think of we're going to give you the latest.

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Speaker 2: Trump made a bunch of new comments yesterday. Also, Medora

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Speaker 2: is actually expected in court today, is being held in

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Speaker 2: the same person as Luigi and Divvy, So I don't

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Speaker 2: know this none of if it feels real anyway. We're

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Speaker 2: also going to have a fantastic guest named Ava Gollinger.

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Speaker 5: She's an attorney.

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Speaker 2: She's also written a book about Hugo Chavez and she

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Speaker 2: has a lot of insight and theories about what actually

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Speaker 2: went down, and especially with regard to the now acting

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Speaker 2: president Delsia Rodriguez, so definitely want to talk to her.

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Speaker 2: We've got one David Rojas joining.

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Speaker 5: Us as well.

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Speaker 2: He wrote a piece about the future that he sees

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Speaker 2: for Venezuela, and also going to ask him about some

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Speaker 2: of the South Florida reaction and the upset over the

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Speaker 2: fact that Trump just threw Machado, the opposition leader, under

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Speaker 2: the bus. We're going to take a look at all

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Speaker 2: of the vulture capitalists who are swarming and circling and

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Speaker 2: also whether or not Trump's oil dreams are actually going

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Speaker 2: to come to fruition. We're going to take a look

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Speaker 2: at the Democratic Party reaction as well. They are a

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Speaker 2: bit in disarray over how to approach all of this,

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Speaker 2: and also got to call out a bunch of right

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Speaker 2: wing influencers who shared a bunch of fake ass videos

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Speaker 2: and even after they got called out, did not take

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Speaker 2: them down, including just like overt ai slop retweeted by

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Speaker 2: people like oh I don't know the richest man on

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Speaker 2: the planet Elon Musk, which again continues to just be

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Speaker 2: up even though it's widely clear, totally clear, and has

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Speaker 2: been widely pointed out that this is AI generated. We'll

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Speaker 2: also show you some actual videos from inside of Venezuela

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Speaker 2: and give you the pulling on, you know, as best

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Speaker 2: we can figure how people inside Venezuela and how people

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Speaker 2: in the Venezuela and diaspora also feel about this military intervention,

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Speaker 2: as best as we can glean.

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Speaker 5: So that's what we're going to get to you today.

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Speaker 2: We're going to go in deep because obviously this is

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Speaker 2: incredibly significant action, and we're going to try to figure

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Speaker 2: out where we are and where things may go from here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I mean it's very tough, as you know, I want

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Speaker 3: to say from the top, like we're not in Venezuela,

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Speaker 3: we don't really know. Anybody who's claiming that they know

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Speaker 3: exactly based on the word of somebody in Durrau, Florida,

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Speaker 3: you know, a little bit ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: In my opinion.

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Speaker 3: It is a Country's a large country, tens of millions

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Speaker 3: of people. Many of them will have different opinions. It's complex,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to do our best over the coming

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Speaker 3: weeks and months to get down to it. Thank you

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Speaker 3: to everybody who is supporting the show Breakingpoints at dot com.

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Speaker 1: If you're able to.

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Speaker 3: Join us twenty twenty six it's an election year again,

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Speaker 3: so now we can roll back some of our older pitches.

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Speaker 3: It's an election year. The twenty twenty sixth election is coming.

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Speaker 3: It is upon us if you want to join us

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Speaker 3: for all of that content as well as I what

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Speaker 3: I'm sure going to be an insane year here whenever

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Speaker 3: it comes to Venezuela, perhaps Iran, many other conflicts which

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Speaker 3: we have our i on. Please join us at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 3: dot com and support our work. If you're just watching

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Speaker 3: this on YouTube, please hit subscribe on YouTube. And if

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Speaker 3: you're listening to this the podcast, just go ahead and

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Speaker 3: share an episode with a friend. Perhaps this one is

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Speaker 3: an entire special just on Venezuela as everybody tries to

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Speaker 3: make sense of this situation. But let's go ahead and

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Speaker 3: dive into the nitty gritty we do of course, Crystal,

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Speaker 3: thank you very much.

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Speaker 1: I was actually in South Florida on a bachelor party.

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Speaker 3: While all of this was going down, on a boat,

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Speaker 3: trying to help Cristal on the team get all of it.

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Speaker 3: Haven't been able to weigh in, but here we can.

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Speaker 2: You honestly, what was it when you had your wedding?

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Speaker 2: Was when Biden dropped Every time you're like off the

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Speaker 2: grid and crazy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so before maybe we cut people can fast forward

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Speaker 3: this October seventh.

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Speaker 1: I was planning my wedding. That's my food taste, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Then when Biden dropped out, it was my it was

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Speaker 3: the day after my wedding, on my way to Mini Moon.

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Speaker 3: Then let's see where. Yeah, there there's like multiple of

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Speaker 3: It's like a meme at this point whenever I'm like

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Speaker 3: completely out of pocket, unable to join that something insane happened.

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Speaker 3: So all of you can just set your set your

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Speaker 3: watch by it. What oh when I had the baby?

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Speaker 1: What happened?

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Speaker 6: There was?

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Speaker 1: There was something crazy that happened that.

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Speaker 5: We've lost track at this point.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Almost said maternity. My critics can have a good time

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Speaker 3: with that one. All right, Trump Maduro, let's do it.

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Speaker 3: So mister Maduro, I don't even know how to refer

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Speaker 3: to him the former president, current resident. It's up to

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Speaker 3: the Venezuelans, I guess here is now here in US custody.

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Speaker 3: In fact, as we speak it just landed in Lower

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Speaker 3: Manhattan on his way to the courthouse. But we did

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Speaker 3: have a purp walk. We can go and put this

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Speaker 3: up here on the screen. Stunning scenes. Actually, he's somehow

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Speaker 3: was placed in the hoodie by my friend Jacko Wellings Company,

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Speaker 3: so I'm not exactly sure who did that. That was

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Speaker 3: after his Nike track suit, which has now been completely

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Speaker 3: sold out.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the period is yeah, there's a lot.

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Speaker 3: Of outfit changes happening here to mister Maduro being purp

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Speaker 3: walked here at the DEA headquarters, posing, smiling. He was

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Speaker 3: seen wishing people happy New Year, saying good night to

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Speaker 3: his wife Celia, who was also what extra extraordinary renditioned

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Speaker 3: from the country of Venezuela.

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Speaker 1: This, I mean, it's an insane image, you know, one day.

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Speaker 3: Being the leader of Venezuela long time now to being

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Speaker 3: in US custody after that stunning Delta Force raid. But

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Speaker 3: what we do know now and the big questions are

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Speaker 3: the day after so Crystal broke that news down, Trump

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Speaker 3: saying we're going to run Venezuela, Marco Rue, you know, backtracking,

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Speaker 3: Trump retracking saying no, no, no, we are going to

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Speaker 3: run it. Basically, everything is up in the air, and

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Speaker 3: that's what the focus of our show is going to be.

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Speaker 3: So We've done a super cut here of many of

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump's comments, specifically about how he intends to quote

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Speaker 3: run Venezuela. Let's take a listen.

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Speaker 6: But we can't take a chance after having done this

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Speaker 6: incredible thing of letting somebody else take over where we

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Speaker 6: have to do it again. We can do it again too.

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Speaker 6: Nobody can stop us. Is nobody that has the capability

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Speaker 6: that we have. You know, when I watched that war

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Speaker 6: in Russia going on and on and on and everybody dying,

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Speaker 6: and it's like it's primitive, It's primitive. It's horrible. One

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Speaker 6: of the.

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Speaker 7: Things that is happening. I think you see it. You

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Speaker 7: see it all the time, Howard, You've seen it that

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Speaker 7: Cuba is ready to fall. You know, Cuban looks like

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Speaker 7: it's ready to fall. I don't know how they if

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Speaker 7: they can hold that.

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Speaker 6: But Cuba now.

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Speaker 7: Has no income.

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Speaker 3: They got all of their income.

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Speaker 7: From Venezuela, from the Venezuelan oil.

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Speaker 3: They're not getting any of Couba literally.

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Speaker 7: Is ready to fall. And you have a lot of

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Speaker 7: great Cuban Americans they're going to be very happy about.

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Speaker 6: They come in through the southern border, and something's going

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Speaker 6: to have to be done with the Mexico president.

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Speaker 8: So Columbian President Gustavo Petro a couple of weeks ago

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Speaker 8: he said he's got to watch his ass, and today

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Speaker 8: he said he's not concerned about anything happening to him

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Speaker 8: in the aftermath of this operation.

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Speaker 6: So just what your messages.

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Speaker 4: Well, he has cocaine mills, he has factories where he

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Speaker 4: makes cocaine, and yeah, I think I stick by my

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Speaker 4: first statement. He's making cocaine, they're sending it into the

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Speaker 4: United States. So he does have to watch his ass.

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Speaker 3: So we're gonna run Venezuela and also multiple of these

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Speaker 3: other countries are perhaps going to fall. I mean, at

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Speaker 3: this point, obviously this is what they wanted. They want

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Speaker 3: the mad Man theory of perhaps being able to threaten

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Speaker 3: any of these other countries in Latin America. This is

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Speaker 3: obviously a massive kind of geopolitical moment. There's a lot

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Speaker 3: of talk about the Monroe Doctrine. I previously said here

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Speaker 3: on the show that the vast majority of people saying

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Speaker 3: Monroe doctrin don't actually know what the Monroe doctrine means.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps if anyone wants to saddle up for a history lesson,

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Speaker 3: the Monroe Doctrine was created to prevent European powers from

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Speaker 3: intervening in the Western hemisphere and had a much more

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Speaker 3: of an idea and frankly, like you know, intellectual basis

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Speaker 3: in the age of a European Empire, when the US

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Speaker 3: was a much smaller and tertiary player on the global stage.

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Speaker 3: Now this time around, what's unfortunately kind of been morphed

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Speaker 3: into is just America gets to do whatever it wants,

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Speaker 3: which we actually did try that.

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Speaker 1: It's called the you know, Cold War period, and.

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Speaker 3: It didn't work out so well if you asked me,

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Speaker 3: and in fact, if you asked that, because it's engendered

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Speaker 3: not only a lot of the problems that happened there

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Speaker 3: between the seventies and the eighties, but along the legacy

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Speaker 3: actually of the very leaders like Maduro and now the

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Speaker 3: current leader of Venezuela, who see that legacy as the

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Speaker 3: exact reason for the why they need to be oppositional.

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Speaker 3: Let's say to the United States, many of the countries

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Speaker 3: that he actually just named. One of the things that

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Speaker 3: he could again I've talked about this here previously with Venezuela,

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Speaker 3: is that he's actually doing the best possible thing he

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Speaker 3: could for Claudia Shinbaum, for put Petro, for the Cuban regime,

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Speaker 3: all of whom actually well Shinebaumb excluded, let's take Lula.

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Speaker 3: In all of those cases, those leaders were less popular,

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Speaker 3: and actually after Trump started threatening them, they became dramatically

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Speaker 3: more popular. I was told directly by a source in

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Speaker 3: the State Department that Petro's greatest dream is for Trump

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Speaker 3: to threaten to depose him and to attack him, because

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Speaker 3: that would make he's very unpopular actually in the country.

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Speaker 3: But this is lifting his tide there. So look, there's

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Speaker 3: I mean, I have no idea right at this point,

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Speaker 3: can you really rule out any of what is going on?

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Speaker 3: But this is one of the most explicit and frankly,

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Speaker 3: I mean it's look, there's so much, you know, kind

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Speaker 3: of geostrategically and all that to say about it, but

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Speaker 3: just at the very least, what they want is to

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Speaker 3: base move past even directly let's say, intervening in elections

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Speaker 3: like Argentina with talks of loans, but to just be like,

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Speaker 3: we can black bag any leader. And I mean it's

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Speaker 3: just think about this, legal president, the United States president

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Speaker 3: cannot be prosecuted for any official acts, but the official

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Speaker 3: acts of any foreign leader. As long as you're indicted

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Speaker 3: in the United States, you can be black bagged and

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Speaker 3: then charged under US law for trying to procure machine

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Speaker 3: guns for the use of your military. That is literally

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Speaker 3: in the indictment, which will break down at some point tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I hope.

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Speaker 3: We're all ready to live in this era when the

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Speaker 3: Taiwanese president is indicted in the Chinese court or when

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Speaker 3: you know, I'm sure Zelenski will be indicted soon by

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Speaker 3: the Duma for being a Nazi and all this good luck,

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Speaker 3: good luck talking right, I mean, what did we just say, Now,

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Speaker 3: who's the biggest superpower who is opposed to Israel? Can

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Speaker 3: they just use an ICC warrant to go into Israel

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Speaker 3: and just black back.

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Speaker 5: President AOC is going to have her eye on this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, I or by the way, mister, I

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Speaker 3: saw Boukeli's celebrating this.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, listen, brother, whoever democrat is serious in the future,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't be I wouldn't be talking this way if

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Speaker 1: I were you.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, okay, I mean, this is the world that

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Speaker 3: we live in now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess.

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Speaker 2: And Kaza is an important part of setting the stage

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Speaker 2: for this moment of you know, complete barbarism, complete law

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Speaker 2: of the jungle, complete might makes right. You know, when

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Speaker 2: Israel and the US were able to get away with

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Speaker 2: all of that, it's like, okay, then anything is on

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Speaker 2: the table. And which is something we also talked about

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Speaker 2: at the time. If you are any country around the world,

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Speaker 2: you should be thinking, I need to get nukes because

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Speaker 2: that's basically your only insurance policy against the US doing

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Speaker 2: whatever the hell the US wants to do with you

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Speaker 2: going in and grabbing your oil, your gold, kidnapping your

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Speaker 2: head of state, locking them up in a federal prison

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Speaker 2: in the southern District of New York. That is your

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Speaker 2: only real safe guard. So like North Korea vindicated. You know,

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Speaker 2: we're not messing with them, are they are we There's

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Speaker 2: a reason for that. And you know, the for the

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Speaker 2: Monroe Doctrine people, there's a few things I would want

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Speaker 2: to say.

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Speaker 5: Number One, there seems.

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Speaker 2: To be this illusion that like, oh, if quote unquote

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Speaker 2: we take the oil, this is somehow going to directly

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Speaker 2: benefit the American people versus no, no, no, this is

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Speaker 2: about the bottom line of Exxon Mobile and the bottom

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Speaker 2: lines of the Oligart class. It doesn't have anything to

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Speaker 2: do with your self interest. Like your self interest and

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Speaker 2: the interests of the empire and the Oligart class. Maybe

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Speaker 2: sometimes they align, but they are not the same interests.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's really important to remember. Another thing

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Speaker 2: about the Donro Doctrine people is Trump himself has said like,

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Speaker 2: oh no, it's not just about our neighborhood. It's about

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Speaker 2: doing whatever we want, wherever we want. It's about getting

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Speaker 2: what we want when we want. So that is the

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Speaker 2: world that we live in now, and if anyone was

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Speaker 2: under any illusions, I think those illusions should be disabused.

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Speaker 2: The you know, the other thing that I would say

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Speaker 2: about this is that we are going to have immediate

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Speaker 2: repercussions in terms of the way that the rest of

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Speaker 2: the world relates to us. And there's a tension in

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Speaker 2: what Trump did here because on the one hand, it's insane.

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Speaker 2: It's a sort of like military spectacle, right, this great

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Speaker 2: theatrical military display, which Trump absolutely loves.

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Speaker 5: He's you know, going.

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Speaker 2: All, oh, the you know, our amazing military in this

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Speaker 2: operation was so dangerous and they're so courageous, and they

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Speaker 2: love that aspect.

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Speaker 5: He loves that aspect of it.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, it also does illustrate that there

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Speaker 2: was a limit to what he wanted to do. You know,

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Speaker 2: there were war games that they conducted previously where they

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Speaker 2: found you know, if we really did the whole, like

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Speaker 2: take out the whole Maduro regime and try to install Machado,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be a fucking mess, and we're going

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Speaker 2: to have to have, you know, massive number of troops there.

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Speaker 2: We are truly going to have to like own this

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Speaker 2: thing and occupy it, and there's going to be rival

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Speaker 2: groups fighting, and it's going to be a disaster. Trump

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Speaker 2: looked at that and was like, I don't want to

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Speaker 2: deal with that, So sorry, Machado, We're not doing that

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Speaker 2: as of today, you can't really call it a regime

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Speaker 2: change because the same regime is in charge and you

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Speaker 2: have the same level of threats. Now Trump feels that

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Speaker 2: he's up the ante, that he's escalated the threats, so

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Speaker 2: he may get more out of out of the vice

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Speaker 2: president who's now in charge in Venezuela. There's also a

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Speaker 2: possibility we're going to talk to our next guest about,

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Speaker 2: you know, whether there was a deal that was struck

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Speaker 2: directly between Delsi Rodriguez and between the Trump administration. But

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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, the situation has not fundamentally changed.

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Speaker 2: We have military assets in the region, but not on

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Speaker 2: the ground. We have the same regime in charge, and

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Speaker 2: they are still stuck between having to respond to their

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Speaker 2: own population and their own movement and having to worry

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Speaker 2: about Trumpian threats. So at the same time that it's

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Speaker 2: this insane and extraordinary action, it also actually demonstrates some

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Speaker 2: of the limits of how far Trump was ultimately willing

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Speaker 2: to go here. He kind of showed his hand in

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Speaker 2: terms of what he is actually willing to do, So

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Speaker 2: I think that's an important learning to take from this

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Speaker 2: as well.

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Speaker 3: I Mean, I've seen so much discourse about the Afghanistan

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Speaker 3: and Rock Wars, and they're like, Wow, the.

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Speaker 1: Military has changed. We need to rethink. Guys.

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Speaker 3: You're an idiot if you think that the United States

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Speaker 3: defeated Saddam's military in three weeks. The United States deposed

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Speaker 3: and took out the Taliban with barely any troops on

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Speaker 3: the ground and a CIA team very similar in some

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Speaker 3: ways to what happened here with Maduro. Nobody has ever

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Speaker 3: doubted the incredible professionalism, planning, and all of that of

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Speaker 3: US Special operations. What we do doubt is this strategic

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Speaker 3: know how of the general class and of Washington and

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Speaker 3: our civilian authorities to be able to govern that effectively.

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Speaker 3: And that's the endgame that we're in right now. So

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Speaker 3: it's not even correct to call it regime change. It's

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Speaker 3: not even really correct to call it a coup or

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Speaker 3: any of that. It is very similar. We have to

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Speaker 3: roll the clock back almost over one hundred years to

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Speaker 3: the British times, where this is probably more akin to

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Speaker 3: a British colonial where a British colonial experiments, where what

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Speaker 3: they would do is they would have like quasi local leaders,

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Speaker 3: they would have a very select few number of troops

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Speaker 3: and corporations on the ground, and the implicit kind of

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Speaker 3: admission was that you do what we want, we won't

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Speaker 3: mess too much in your own internal affairs, but if

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Speaker 3: you do, the full force of His Majesty's navy, we'll

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Speaker 3: come in and will basically wipe you out. But even

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Speaker 3: that obviously broke apart many times. It worked in some cases,

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Speaker 3: and then every once in a while, Oh, Afghanistan, what happened, right?

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Speaker 3: And you know a number of troops would die in

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Speaker 3: the Kyper past, like this is akin to that model

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Speaker 3: even in the US times, like our grand colonial experiments,

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Speaker 3: we're honestly much more like flirt. Like we've never really

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Speaker 3: had explicit basic denouncement announcements. We're here to take the oil. Now,

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Speaker 3: remember keep this like deep in the back of your mind.

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Speaker 3: That is Trump today, That is not Trump in tomorrow

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Speaker 3: or yesterday, like it could be any time anywhere. And

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Speaker 3: this is the competing faction which is currently in the

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Speaker 3: White House. So we have the Secretary of State Marco

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Speaker 3: Rubio here all over the place. We're about to play

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Speaker 3: for you. First, we're not running it, Trump says, we

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Speaker 3: are running it. He says that this isn't regime change,

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Speaker 3: but maybe regime change is so bad. The Middle East

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Speaker 3: was bad, but this isn't necessarily the exact same thing.

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Speaker 1: We could be using leverage.

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Speaker 3: It's about China, even though Trump said We're going to

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Speaker 3: sell them oil to China. So let's take a listen

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Speaker 3: to this from the Secretary of State. It's completely all

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Speaker 3: over the map.

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Speaker 8: We intend to use every element of leverage that we

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Speaker 8: have to ensure that that changes. The one I would

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Speaker 8: point everyone too is that our military is helping the

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Speaker 8: Coastguard conduct the law enforcement function, which is not just

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Speaker 8: the capture of Maduro, but the enforcement of our sanctions.

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Speaker 8: We go to court, we get a warrant, we seize

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Speaker 8: the boats, and we think that's this tremendous leverage, incredible

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Speaker 8: crippling leverage, which we intend to continue to use until

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Speaker 8: we see the changes that we need to see.

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Speaker 9: Was asked about the possibility of US boots on the ground,

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Speaker 9: he said, quote, we're not afraid of it. How many

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Speaker 9: US forces are on the ground right now in Venezuela.

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Speaker 9: Are there any We.

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Speaker 8: Don't have US forces on the ground in Venezuela. No,

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Speaker 8: we don't have US forces on the ground. Everyone knows

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Speaker 8: they were on the ground for about two hours when

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Speaker 8: they went to capture Maduro. And I think what the

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Speaker 8: President is saying is very simple, and that is, as

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Speaker 8: president of the United States, he is not going to

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Speaker 8: go around telling people what he's not going to do.

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Speaker 8: He's not going to do. He's not going to go

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Speaker 8: around saying I won't do this, I won't do that. Yes,

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Speaker 8: I care about this issue, but I'll only go so far.

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Speaker 8: He retains all this optionality. In the particular case you're citing,

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Speaker 8: this was, in essence, at its core a law enforcement function.

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Speaker 9: Is the Cuban government the Trump Administration's next target, mister

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Speaker 9: secretary very quickly.

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Speaker 8: Well, the Cuban government is a huge problem. Yeah, the

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Speaker 8: human government is a huge problem for so yes, Cuba.

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Speaker 8: But I don't think Pe will fully appreciate. I think

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Speaker 8: they're in a lot of trouble. Yes, I'm not going

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Speaker 8: to talk to you about what our future steps are

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Speaker 8: going to be and our policies are going to be

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Speaker 8: right now in this regard. But I don't think it's

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Speaker 8: any mystery that we are not big fans of the

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Speaker 8: Cuban regime, who, by the way, are the ones that

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Speaker 8: we're propping up. Maduro His entire like internal security force.

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Speaker 8: His internal security opera apparatus is entirely controlled by Cubans.

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Speaker 8: One of the untold stories here is how in essence

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Speaker 8: you talk about colonization, because I think you said Dulcia

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Speaker 8: Rodriguez mentioned that the ones that have sort of colonized

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Speaker 8: at least inside the regime are Cubans. It was Cubans

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Speaker 8: that guarded Maduro. He was not guarded by Venezuelan bodyguards.

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Speaker 8: He had Cuban bodyguards.

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Speaker 3: So important clip there because that's what's really all about

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Speaker 3: there for mister Rubio, right, whose father's dying wish was

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Speaker 3: that he liberate Cuba.

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Speaker 1: Not joking. He wrote about it in his own booky.

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Speaker 2: By the way, they left before the revolution, just everyone

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Speaker 2: else and after the revolution. And yeah, also their families

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Speaker 2: involved in drug trafficking, was involved in drug trafficks.

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Speaker 1: We'll put that notes about mark book.

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Speaker 2: We could on the on the Cuba piece, there's a

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Speaker 2: piece an American Prospect where you can you can read

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Speaker 2: the details about the narco trafficking piece. In any case,

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Speaker 2: the Cuba bet is both that they will you know,

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Speaker 2: have fear struck in the heart from this, you know, kidnapping,

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Speaker 2: abduction and holding the leader of Venezuela hostage. And also

438
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 2: they do they benefit from you know, inexpensive oil from Venezuela.

439
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 2: And it is true the Cuban economy is a mess,

440
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 2: like they are actually in very dire straits. So their

441
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 2: like reverse Domino theory is that perhaps just by withholding

442
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: this Venezuela oil that will be enough to shake the

443
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 2: Cuban regime. And then with the threat that you know,

444
00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,960
Speaker 2: we could go in and take direct direct action as well.

445
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 2: The whole mentality, I think the best way to think

446
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,159
Speaker 2: about it is a couple of things. Number One, in

447
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 2: the same way that you have the Israel lobby, you

448
00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 2: have a like you know, Miami South America lobby that

449
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,719
Speaker 2: is obsessed with these things and that are very influential

450
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 2: both in terms of financial donations, in terms of the administration,

451
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 2: and in terms of a political constituency that's important to

452
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 2: the Republican Party. So sometimes the moves that are taken

453
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:11,240
Speaker 2: seem irrational because you have to calculate in that you

454
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:16,000
Speaker 2: have this incredibly ideological die hard faction that is both

455
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,959
Speaker 2: you know, money and political power that is dedicated to

456
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,520
Speaker 2: this like Neocon ideology with regard to these certain to

457
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 2: any left wing government. You know that is in Central

458
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 2: South America and the Caribbean. So there's you know, that

459
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 2: piece I think is really important to keep in mind.

460
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:33,199
Speaker 2: And then in terms of the way the Trump administration

461
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,840
Speaker 2: is operating here, Grand Platner, which we may play later

462
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,080
Speaker 2: in the show, called it international gangsterism, and I do

463
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 2: think that is the right mentality. They are operating like

464
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,960
Speaker 2: mob bosses through threats and intimidation. We're going to hold

465
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 2: your leader hostage and do with him what we will.

466
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 2: We're going to amass these forces in your region as

467
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,200
Speaker 2: a threat, and we're going to hope that those threats,

468
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: in that coercion is enough for us to be able

469
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 2: to effectively run your country without actually doing the boots

470
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 2: on the ground, the military occupation, et cetera. Now they're

471
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: not ruling that out. That's part of the sort of

472
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 2: like mob threat on the table. Hey, we could come

473
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,639
Speaker 2: in and occupy your country. We could come back and

474
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 2: bomb your country some more and kill more of your citizens.

475
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,919
Speaker 2: But it truly is this sort of like gangster mentality

476
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: that they're hoping that the threat and the coercion is

477
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 2: enough to be able to run the entire country and

478
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 2: turn them into a puppet regime.

479
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: It's possible. I mean a lot of it.

480
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: It's like gunboat diplomacy from the early eighteen hundreds. If

481
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 3: you don't know what it is, we don't have enough

482
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 3: time to like.

483
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: Go into it.

484
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 3: But like basically the ideas you can roll in, you

485
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 3: can open a port, you can coerce the government to

486
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 3: do what it wants. But the idea, and really why

487
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 3: a lot of this fell out of favor from the

488
00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 3: United States is that what it unleashed effectively was not

489
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 3: only the greatest war war that Europe had ever seen,

490
00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 3: but then ten to sorry, twenty to thirty years of

491
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 3: complete destabilization, Hitlerism, fascism, The Soviet Union, and the United

492
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,560
Speaker 3: States were the ones who decided They're like, look, we

493
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 3: need to go to war in Europe to stop international gangsterism. Look,

494
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 3: as people know, I think international law is fake. And

495
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 3: that's why I'm like, I'm not using someone. Oh we

496
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 3: legal kidnapping and all of that might does make right,

497
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,200
Speaker 3: but that doesn't mean.

498
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: That you should do it.

499
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 3: And so I think that everybody should talk in terms

500
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 3: of good idea bad idea. Now when we talk here

501
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 3: in terms of Venezuela, one of the reasons that a

502
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 3: lot of this fell out of fashion, I guess, if

503
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,840
Speaker 3: you will, is that the United States for a long

504
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: time actually dramatically benefited from effectively doing the same thing

505
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 3: but under very different not only tonal ways, but also

506
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 3: in terms of the way that they acted in order

507
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 3: to make sure that you didn't have the same contradictions arise.

508
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: Let's say, when Russia invaded Ukraine and you want to

509
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 3: sanction the hell out of their economy, and what do

510
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: we really even have to say here? And look Monroe doctrine,

511
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, good luck explaining that to the Chinese.

512
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 3: When they're starting to talk about Taiwan, They're like, yo,

513
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 3: look at the mileage between Washington and Venezuela there, and

514
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,960
Speaker 3: then look at the little space there between us and

515
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 3: between Taiwan.

516
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, it's an unresolved question.

517
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 3: You guys, are you know in our sphere of influence,

518
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:10,919
Speaker 3: this is open and shutcase.

519
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: You have nothing to say. Now.

520
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that this is going to make it

521
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: more likely or less. I think it just makes it.

522
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 3: Like I think if they were going to do it,

523
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 3: they were going to do it. But the way that

524
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 3: the United States and the world of course, would have

525
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 3: to react in that type of situation does dramatically matter,

526
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 3: and so here.

527
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: Remind people, Sager, what percentage of chips are manufacturing in Taiwan.

528
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 1: It depends.

529
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: I mean if we're looking at overall, but in terms

530
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 3: of the advance the most importance ninety percent. Yeah, Like

531
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 3: literally the entire US economy is going is gone like.

532
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 2: This, Like even if you don't care whether Taiwan is

533
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 2: independent or on our Chinese control or whatever, in terms

534
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: of what actually will impact your life and our national security,

535
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: your ability to buy basic consumer goods, you have a

536
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 2: lot more interest in Taiwan than you do it.

537
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 1: I've said this before.

538
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 3: I mean, if Taiwan happens, all of us, like all

539
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: of our camera equipment will probably be nationalized by the government.

540
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: Like I'll probably it's like in Russia, like we're literally

541
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 3: gonna have to turn this laptop in, They're going to

542
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 3: take the chip out. We'll all have to go buy

543
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 3: like two thousand and six laptops on eBay. You think

544
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 3: I'm kidding, this could be That would after two years

545
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 3: of something like that going on. And if we try

546
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 3: to react negatively to that situation and don't come to

547
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 3: some quasi deal with the Chinese.

548
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: That's what it's gonna look like.

549
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: And beyond that, I mean, just like with us in Venezuela,

550
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: the Chinese now currently figuring out what they want to do.

551
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: But let's just really remember like within this, it's the

552
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: chaos element, and the chaos element what it can unleash

553
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 3: is if we look back and Marco Rubio is claiming

554
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: with a straight face, this is not Middle East. The

555
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 3: point is not about the Middle East. The point is

556
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,960
Speaker 3: about the playbook. Is that in every single time, the

557
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 3: United States has never been adept at being able to

558
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 3: manage a multi year occupation and or governance plan which

559
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,880
Speaker 3: would actually benefit the people there and the people here.

560
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: In every single case, whether it was direct intervention, whether

561
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: it was decapitation, what happened was chaos. The United States

562
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 3: was never adept because of its own domestick abilities or

563
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: whatever in order to actually manage this, and it unleashed

564
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 3: hell for the region and eventually led to either blowback

565
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: or problems for US. Now, the craziness of this is

566
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: that in the interim, the Maduro regime remains in power

567
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: without Maduro, and in fact, the most likely outcome as

568
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 3: of today.

569
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: We have no idea.

570
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,640
Speaker 3: Of course, what will happen is that the current vice

571
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 3: president will assume power, issue oil lines, licenses, her and

572
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 3: her brother run the entire country. They will use some

573
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 3: sort of concession and economic benefit from the United States

574
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:37,680
Speaker 3: with their new I mean, just lifting the sanctions would

575
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 3: boom the Venezuelan economy will reopen an embassy. Trump doesn't

576
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 3: care about democracy. What do you think that Delsi Rodriguez

577
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 3: and her.

578
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 1: Brother are going to do.

579
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 3: They're going to lock up the entire opposition and kill

580
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: them just I mean, why wouldn't you if you were them?

581
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: That is the modal outcome.

582
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 5: Now.

583
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 3: The problem then is that it becomes just like any

584
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 3: other volatile US backs situation. I'm not saying any of

585
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 3: this will fall apart in one year or two. That's

586
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: what many people misunderstand. Like in retrospect, you can see

587
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 3: how Libya was a disaster. It took years for Libya

588
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 3: to fully fall apart. In Iraq, oh four, you could

589
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 3: actually made a case that it all worked out.

590
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:15,680
Speaker 1: Five in Afghanistan, that.

591
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 3: Was the only time that it doesn't the only time

592
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 3: it's really started to go off the rails.

593
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: Everybody can say mission accomplished. It's easy.

594
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 3: And then what in retrospect we see, like, ah, the

595
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: groundwork for the problem, everything falling apart. Not going to

596
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 3: sit here and say that it's going to be a

597
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 3: chaos tomorrow. That's not how these things happen. What has

598
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 3: always been the case for non intervention, or for deeply

599
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: thoughtful intervention, is that fortieth order consequences are completely unpredictable,

600
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: and you would rather not as the United States play

601
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 3: with them. I mean, even now they're talking about how

602
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: Midnight Hammer was some great success. It's like, really, well,

603
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: Bbe's still trying to claim that he wants to bomb

604
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 3: me roun Okay. So that's what I'm saying. When you read,

605
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 3: when you read the history book, you'll just skip over

606
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 3: be able to go Midnight Hammer to hear right, and

607
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: it'll look completely obvious.

608
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: But in the interim we're all having to.

609
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 3: You know, deal with this ridiculous propaganda about how incredible

610
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 3: it is.

611
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: But kind of wrap all of this section up.

612
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: Let's go and put a six up on the screen

613
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: just to show the chaotic element. Trump is currently threatening

614
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 3: Venezuela's new leader with quote fate worse than maduro a

615
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: second wave of strikes is possible. And you know, even

616
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 3: my analysis earlier is presumptive on the fact that she

617
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 3: can keep control. The thing is about Venezuela and the

618
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: reason why they couldn't actually do the regime change. We're

619
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,120
Speaker 3: gonna talk about this with EVA. There are multiple competing factions. Remember,

620
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: there are the oil fields. There are the cartels, yes,

621
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 3: they do operate in areas of Venezuela. There is the military.

622
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: There are actually various factions within the military. There's the Assembly,

623
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 3: there is Rodriguez and there, but there's the Venezuelan kind

624
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: of like quasi oil oligarchs, like in Russia. There are

625
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 3: multiple competing power centers. Who knows what will happen and

626
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 3: whether there will to be some in eternal coup against them.

627
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: That's what happens in these scenarios is within chaos, anything

628
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 3: can happen, and again usually it does not work out

629
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 3: to overall US benefit. It usually leads to some sort

630
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: of intervention, or it can easily spiral. It can cause

631
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 3: a decision tree which very easily leads to more US

632
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 3: boots on the ground, which our present explicitly refuses to

633
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 3: rule out. Also, yeah, Rubio saying there's no US service

634
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: members on the ground. Yeah, maybe not officially. I mean

635
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: the entire story of the captures is multiple CIA black

636
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 3: squads running around.

637
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: Okay, so obviously there are you.

638
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 5: They don't consider that, you know, military account.

639
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 3: I think everybody else, Yeah, you know, it counts to me.

640
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: And then finally a seven, let's go and put this

641
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 3: up here on the screen. What we have here is that, look,

642
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: this hasn't been officially confirmed, but I called around.

643
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: Some people are saying it's fake. It's not.

644
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: What it does generally fit with, though, is that Venezuela

645
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 3: and leaders offer the US a path to stay in

646
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 3: power without Maduro. And this is I think a good

647
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: segue way to EVA is that we really still don't

648
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: know whether this was part of some backroom deal where

649
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 3: the you know, other people inside the Maduro regime made

650
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 3: a deal with Trump and them and said, look, yeah

651
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 3: you can come and take him. Soby it killed some Cubans, whatever,

652
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 3: you can create some big victory.

653
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean, they.

654
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 3: Have remembered whenever we say we want to take the oil,

655
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 3: it's in their benefit too.

656
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: They want to sell it to us.

657
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 3: Their economy has been destroyed by sanctions over the last decade.

658
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,239
Speaker 3: I mean they're actually were doing okay, it's what some

659
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 3: fifteen years ago or so, it's now that they've actually

660
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 3: been driven down into the ground. That's what had a

661
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 3: lot of the migration. They don't want any of those problems.

662
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 3: They want to be rich too, and they have no

663
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 3: problem killing their opposition or any of that and effectively

664
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: being like a you know, quasi corrupt state which is

665
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 3: under semi like one party ish type rules. They don't

666
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 3: want elections or fake elections or any of this. This

667
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 3: is this could be a great outcome for them. They

668
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: want to basically be you know, almost a golf style monarch.

669
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: Well, but that's part of the thing is and this

670
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 2: is something you and I've covered, Like none of this

671
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: was necessary. The deal was like the table, but you

672
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: didn't need to kidnap Medoro to secure this deal. It

673
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 2: was not required at all. I mean, the oil deal

674
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 2: was there for in whatever other natural resources would say,

675
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: do have other significant stock bows and natural resources? That

676
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: was all on the table. I think Trump, with his

677
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: rhetoric and also under pressure from Rubio in that faction,

678
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 2: felt like he needed to do some like oh my god,

679
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 2: Venezuela spectacle to appease that constituency. And so that's how

680
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,360
Speaker 2: you end up with this outcome. Because in terms of

681
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 2: the economics of it, I mean, I think there's a

682
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 2: pretty strong case to be made that he actually would

683
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 2: have been better off not doing this, because now you

684
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 2: have the Delsia Rodriguez under more pressure domestically from you know,

685
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 2: but possibly because the population is looking like, we don't

686
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: want to be some colonial outposts. We don't want to

687
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: just completely bend and be, you know, under the thumb

688
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,760
Speaker 2: of these of the Yankee oppressor. You know, So it

689
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: actually creates some more potential dissent and some more pressure

690
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: in terms of, you know, what may happen going forward.

691
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: So in any case, the deal was on the table,

692
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: did not require this, you know. And by the way,

693
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: over eighty people were killed in the context of this

694
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: military operation, did not require the kidnapping of a world leader,

695
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: did not require any of this. If you just wanted

696
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: the freaking oil.

697
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to sit here.

698
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: And this is what's so complicated because what I think,

699
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 3: the what I think Trump and his White House want

700
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: is for everyone to absolutely lose it.

701
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: Be like this is regime change. Entanglement and all that.

702
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not responsible, that's not what happened, But that

703
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that it isn't bad. And that also doesn't

704
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 3: mean that you can't easily foresee many of the issues

705
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 3: and also the triumphalism in the be Look, I've just

706
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,959
Speaker 3: been in politics long enough. I always know the day

707
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 3: after tweet it usually doesn't age well, and especially when

708
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: it comes to war. You and just let me ask

709
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 3: you this basic proposition, and I'll ask it to the nation.

710
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: Do you have confidence that this team can competently pull

711
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 3: off an oil extraction inside of Venezuela?

712
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: Yes or no question?

713
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 3: Do you have confidence that this team, you know, could

714
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 3: have the I mean, look, I hate Bush, I hate Cheney.

715
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: Chaney was an actual oil man, all right. If anybody

716
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 3: could have done it could have been him. If anybody

717
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: could have done it, he could have been Ronald Reagan

718
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 3: and those people. They were very smart, they were very competent.

719
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 3: In fact, one of my favorite books is about Vietnam.

720
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 3: What is the Best and the Brightest. We had the

721
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 3: world's greatest minds, you know, sit there and come up

722
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 3: with their statuets and their ideas behind how to win

723
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 3: against North Vietnam and in fact, you know, if they

724
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: can't do something like that, really ask yourself whether this

725
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: team can, and then say, do you have confidence that

726
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 3: this can also be not only a single administration, but

727
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 3: a future problem that every one of our great we're

728
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: going to talk about the Democrats. Do we really have

729
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: confidence that this bipartisan establishment in our current country can

730
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: competently pull this off? Or can we look at our

731
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: long history of all of this and say, yeah, we

732
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 3: probably would have been better off just striking a deal

733
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: with Maduro. She's be like, hey, man, stop dancing, you know,

734
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: in public, and cut us some oil and minerals.

735
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: He would have done it.

736
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: I'm sure he would have if we've been like, okay, fine,

737
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: you know, stop threatening to kill me, and then I will.

738
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: But we'll see. Now you break it, you buy it,

739
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: and they certainly do.

740
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 6: So.

741
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 3: With all of that, let's get to Eva and let's

742
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 3: see get her reaction on some of the background behind

743
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 3: this possible deal between the Maduro remnants of the regime

744
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 3: and the Trump administration.

745
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: Let's turn now to the question of Delsea Rodriguez. She

746
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 2: was the vice president to Maduro. Now she has been

747
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 2: sworn in, so she is the active president of Venezuela,

748
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: and there's a question of whether or not she could

749
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: have been involved in striking a deal with the Trump

750
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: administration in advance of their kidnapping of Maduro and attack

751
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 2: on the country of Venezuela. So, following those actions, we've

752
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: gotten some contradictory signs from Ms.

753
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 5: Rodriguez. So first we had this very.

754
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: Bombastic public statement where she said we'll never be slaves again.

755
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 2: She also said that the action had a quote zionist tinge.

756
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: Since then we've gotten a new statement that has quite

757
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: a different tone. We can put this up on the

758
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: screen where she's seeking cooperation, she says. So, she says,

759
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: Venezuela reaffirms it's commitment to peace and peaceful coexistence. Our

760
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 2: country aspires to live without external threats and an environment

761
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: of respect and international cooperation. We believe global peace is

762
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 2: built by first guaranteeing peace within each nation. We prioritize

763
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: moving towards balanced and respectful international relations between the US

764
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 2: and Venezuela and between Venezuela and other countries in the region,

765
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: premised on sovereign equality and non interference. These principles guide

766
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 2: our diplomacy with the rest of the world. We invite

767
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: in this as the key paragraph, we invite the US

768
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 2: government to collaborate with us on an agenda of cooperation

769
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: oriented towards shared development within the framework of international law,

770
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: to strengthen lasting community co exisit distance, President Donald Trump,

771
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: our peoples in our region, des our peace and dialogue.

772
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 3: Not war.

773
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: This has always been President Nicholas Medoro's message, and it

774
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 2: is the message of all of Venezuela right now. This

775
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: is the Venezuela I believe in and have dedicated my

776
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: life too. So for further analysis of the situation, we

777
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: are very fortunate to be joined by author and lawyer

778
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 2: Ava Gollinger. She is also the author of the book

779
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: The Chavez Code. Great to have you, Avas, good to

780
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 2: see you.

781
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 10: Thanks for having me on.

782
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: All right, so talk to us about Delcia Rodriguez and

783
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 2: what you think is going on here.

784
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,760
Speaker 10: There's so much going on also under the surface, behind

785
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 10: the scenes that obviously most of us are not privy to.

786
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 10: So things are very much in development in real time.

787
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 10: But certainly there can be several things true at the

788
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 10: same time. It can be true that there was some

789
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 10: type of negotiation for this outcome that then has platformed

790
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 10: and placed Deli in the presidency in Venezuela for this

791
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 10: transition period as it's being referred to, at least by

792
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 10: the United States. And it can be true that Delsi

793
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 10: and the government in Venezuela remain anti imperialist and opposed

794
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 10: to know the US control of their country. Both things

795
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 10: can be true. I mean, this is a very dangerous

796
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 10: moment for Venezuela. Even if there was a negotiation that

797
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 10: took place ahead of time that somehow sacrificed Maduro or

798
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 10: enabled his capture to remove him, to give Trump a

799
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 10: victory so that you know, the rest could stay in power,

800
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 10: it doesn't mean that they're welcoming US intervention and invasion

801
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 10: into the country. I mean, obviously they were pushed into

802
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 10: a corner. But at the same time, there have been

803
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 10: negotiations going on now for months, at least since the

804
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 10: start of this year, and leading them have been Delsi

805
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 10: and her brother Jorge, who up until now has been

806
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 10: head of Venezuela's legislative body, the National Assembly. They are

807
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 10: very astute and intelligent and you know, internationalists individuals who

808
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,240
Speaker 10: have been involved in this particular part of the government

809
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 10: throughout most of Maduro's presidency, so it's really not surprising

810
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 10: to see that they are the two key players in

811
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 10: this chapter of the Venezuelan government. But I think primarily

812
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 10: they're trying to hold power, so by any means that's necessary,

813
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 10: and it's in part to ensure their own power and

814
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 10: their own you know, posturing in the country the wealth

815
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 10: they have accumulated. But it's also to ensure that the

816
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 10: opposition doesn't come back and take power, because they certainly

817
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 10: don't want that to happen, and that's not something that's

818
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 10: widely accepted and desired, at least in the Venezuela that

819
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 10: I know. So I think that there can be several

820
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 10: things true at the same time.

821
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: Well, we should know.

822
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 3: You're one of the literal experts on the country. You

823
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 3: spend a lot of time there. You know, you knew

824
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 3: many of these people personally. Part of the things I'm

825
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,840
Speaker 3: interested in here is about this deal with Delsa Rodriguez.

826
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 3: You know, you have said that she's looked at in

827
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 3: the country is more of a technocratic manager of the

828
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 3: current like quasi socialist capitalist system whenever it comes to oil.

829
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 3: Part of the reason that she may have been picked

830
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 3: here by Donald Trump, or at least accepted by the

831
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 3: current Trump administration. I mean, how will you see her

832
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 3: capability of balancing these two things of wanting to either

833
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 3: appease work with the Trump administration and then organic internal

834
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, small d democratic concern over the United States

835
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: and this current intervention of the kidnapping of Nicholas Maduro.

836
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: What's your sense of the internal dynamics and her ability

837
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 3: to manage that and what that's going to look like.

838
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 10: Well, I think that that's going to play out over

839
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 10: the next few days because certainly there's an internal power

840
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 10: struggle going on. I mean, Delsey may have been the

841
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 10: chosen one by the United States and through the negotiation process,

842
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 10: that doesn't mean that she sort of has that power

843
00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 10: over the other group's powerful figures in the government, you know,

844
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,640
Speaker 10: their sectors, like Delci is not the one who's controlling

845
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 10: the security forces in the military and the social movements.

846
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 10: But again they have been the key negotiators with Washington.

847
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,479
Speaker 10: And one other aspect is very well. A couple of things.

848
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 10: One that's very interesting is that both her and her

849
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 10: brother Jore have never been sanctioned by the United States,

850
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 10: are implicated in any of these indictments, whereas pretty much

851
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 10: almost every other member figurehead of the government has been

852
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 10: and that was reiterated in this most recent updated indictment

853
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,840
Speaker 10: that included Celia Florida's Maduro's wife as well as his

854
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 10: son and Diocelo Caveo. And so that's curious because I

855
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 10: think it puts them sort of on alert that they're

856
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 10: the ones who are next in line, dios Dala particularly

857
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 10: holding the threat on Maduro and his wife possibly to

858
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 10: not give up any information because their son, well his son,

859
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 10: it's not their son together, but Celia's stepson could be next.

860
00:40:55,640 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 10: And there's already outstanding indictments and sanctions against Minister of

861
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 10: Defense of Vladimir Padrino Lopez and others in the in

862
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,279
Speaker 10: the security apparatus. So I think there, you know, there's

863
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 10: several factors going on that she has to comply to

864
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 10: maintain order and power in the country right now. She

865
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,120
Speaker 10: has to be complicit to the US. I think that's

866
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 10: what's gone on behind the scenes. But again, this has

867
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 10: been a lobby in place now at least for months,

868
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 10: possibly since the beginning of the year. We saw her placement,

869
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 10: for example, in the new York Times weeks ago, where

870
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 10: she was presented as the moderate, which is entirely laughable

871
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 10: because her her history shows while she may be more

872
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 10: pragmatic to deal with in terms of business, certainly not

873
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 10: moderate in terms of ideology and behavior. These are people

874
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 10: who are have I would say, very repressive instincts she does,

875
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 10: will not accept any kind of dissent. They will go

876
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 10: after anyone who they think would be betraying them. So

877
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 10: I think it's a very volatile time in the country

878
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 10: in that aspect that she's going to be, with the

879
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 10: help of her brother, trying to exert some kind of

880
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 10: control and power brokering amongst the groups to see how

881
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 10: far can they advance under this immense pressure that they have.

882
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 10: But Trump's made clear they'll just go in and do

883
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 10: it again if they want to. And I mean, I

884
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 10: think that it's true. We've seen that it's true that

885
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 10: they can do that. And now I think they've placed

886
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 10: all these you know, CIA assets inside the country, so

887
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 10: they could execute another rendition at any time if they wanted.

888
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: To give us a sense of who Delsey is, where

889
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,360
Speaker 2: she comes from, how she comes into this position as

890
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: vice president, Timodora.

891
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,399
Speaker 10: Well, she's someone again. Her brother, Jorge, older brother, is

892
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 10: the more sort of behind the scenes powerful player here.

893
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 10: He did always have a key position, not directly with

894
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 10: log Chavas when Chavis was president. Neither of them are

895
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 10: from sort of the grassroots original movement that brought Chavis

896
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 10: to power, nor were they confidence of Chaves, whereas definitely

897
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 10: Maduro was, his wife, Celia was, Dio staal Kaba was,

898
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 10: you know, Padrino Lopez was. I mean, those are more

899
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 10: of the core members that were part of the original movement.

900
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 10: Delsi and Horage were always on the outskirts, but had

901
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 10: powerful positions well, Horge did. Horage was head of Venezuela's

902
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 10: National Electoral Council, so he oversaw the voting process for

903
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 10: years in the country. He also was mayor of Caracas

904
00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 10: at a key moment, he pushed Delsi into Chavas's government.

905
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 10: At one point, Chaves briefly took her on as his

906
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 10: chief of staff. That was her first sort of foray

907
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 10: into the government that lasted not more than six months.

908
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 10: Chavez fired her and ousted her entirely from the government

909
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 10: and never wanted her back again, never brought her back again.

910
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 10: It wasn't until after his death that she was brought

911
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 10: back in along with her brother Horage as part of

912
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 10: this power sort of deal that they made with Maduro

913
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 10: for him to maintain power. But she is someone who's

914
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 10: educated internationally. You know, she's a lawyer. She's very smart.

915
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 10: These are very smart, calculated people. So they've been playing

916
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 10: a long game here. She has won. They have wanted

917
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 10: to take the presidency and to rise to that position,

918
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,720
Speaker 10: and she's done well for herself. She started as Minister

919
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 10: of Communication with Maduro, she rose to foreign minister. That

920
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 10: was the way she was sort of able to, you know,

921
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 10: create her networks and get into the the sort of

922
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 10: role as being the pragmatic and the technocrat, and then

923
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 10: she pushed her way into the both the vice presidency

924
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 10: and the head of the oil industry. I mean, you know,

925
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 10: they have been playing the long game here and I

926
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 10: think that they have have done quite well for themselves

927
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 10: to that she has been placed in this position now.

928
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 10: And you know, I think that they've been not not

929
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 10: to say that they were always sort of working to

930
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 10: undermine Maduro, but I think that that was there. That

931
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 10: was the objective in the end, was that Delsi could

932
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 10: rise to the presidency and potentially her brother could be

933
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 10: next in line.

934
00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 3: Well, what's your general sense of like the modal outcome here?

935
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 3: You know, we make some deal, they crush the opposition.

936
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: Does that just end US intervention? How does what does

937
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 3: that look like inside of the country. Let's say the

938
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 3: sanctions lift, all the groups get rich, everybody seems to

939
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 3: be happy.

940
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: What are the downsides to that?

941
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 3: You know?

942
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 10: For there will Yeah, I mean the groups are rich

943
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 10: anyway right already. But you know, it's really more there's

944
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 10: there's other aspects here. Because there are the people of Venezuela.

945
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 10: I mean, there are movements there. They can't be disregarded,

946
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 10: you know. There there is still a powerful bastion of

947
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 10: the original sort of Chavista movement. There's a lot that

948
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 10: were not content with the situation with the current government

949
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,839
Speaker 10: and wanted change. But that didn't mean they wanted US

950
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 10: intervention or any kind of you know, US puppet regime

951
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 10: in place. They weren't supporting the opposition either, but they

952
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 10: wanted change. So I think there's a lot of factors that,

953
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 10: you know, it's it's still volatile and delicate. Just because

954
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 10: Delsy's getting support from Trump doesn't mean that she's going

955
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 10: to have the support of the people. I mean, there's

956
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 10: a lot of you know, psyops going on internally, people

957
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 10: saying that it's not true the betrayal, that there must

958
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 10: be some other thing going on here. And I'm sure

959
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,319
Speaker 10: they're going to present it to the country as though

960
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:10,839
Speaker 10: they this is what they have to do in order

961
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 10: to maintain the Bolvarian Revolution in Venezuela, but in reality

962
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 10: is to maintain their own power. But I do think

963
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 10: that potentially over time, you know, grassroots movements will again

964
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 10: begin to build up in opposition, and you know, it

965
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,399
Speaker 10: could be anyone's game at some point. What I found

966
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 10: really interesting though from Trump was that they did completely

967
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,760
Speaker 10: dismiss the opposition and Maria Quarina Matchau, who were waiting

968
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 10: in the sidelines, who asked for this. So, I mean,

969
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 10: I think that Delsi sold it really well to Rubio

970
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 10: and Trump, and I think that she was right. You know,

971
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 10: many outside of Venezuela and who had the sort of

972
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,959
Speaker 10: platforms in the media were saying that she, Maria Karina

973
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 10: Matchau had all this support and could just ease back

974
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 10: in if she was given chance. But that's not really true.

975
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 10: She doesn't command any of the military and security forces

976
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 10: in the country. She doesn't have that level of you know,

977
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 10: political and security military support. So this was definitely sold

978
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 10: to Trump as we are the ones who can maintain stability.

979
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 10: We are the ones who can guarantee access to the oil,

980
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 10: which is what Trump wants, and everything else in the country.

981
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 10: If you try to come in and put these other

982
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 10: people here, it will be civil unrest and you know,

983
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 10: there will be a civil war, which which could also

984
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 10: be true. So I think that that, you know, that's

985
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 10: that's how it was explained, and I think that that

986
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 10: was a very you know, reasonable proposal to Trump, and

987
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 10: I think that they believe it because it's actually true.

988
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 10: And so, I you know, it just depends how it's

989
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,640
Speaker 10: going to play out, because I this doesn't seem to

990
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 10: be that it's a long term solution with delse at

991
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 10: the forefront, but you really never know. I mean, these

992
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 10: people are survivors. People thought that when Chavis died, the

993
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 10: whole thing was dead, the whole revolution was over, and

994
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 10: here we are. Look, it's now going to be thirteen

995
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,120
Speaker 10: years since Chravis's death and they're still in power.

996
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: Do you think it's possible that Maduro was also in

997
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 2: on the deal, and the whole thing was sort of

998
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: like fake and stage. It's hard for me to imagine

999
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: him going to trial here. I mean, just with a

1000
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 2: sort of cursory understanding of his showmanship.

1001
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,880
Speaker 5: It would be quite a spectacle. You know.

1002
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 2: I sort of have doubts in the ability of them

1003
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 2: to proffer enough evidence to actually fully convict him, at

1004
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: least on all of the charges that they've asserted. So

1005
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 2: is there a possibility that actually he and Delsy that

1006
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 2: they were all in on some sort of a deal

1007
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 2: with the Trump administration. Trump gets his military spectacle, the revolution,

1008
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,320
Speaker 2: the regime gets to stay in power, and Maduro maybe

1009
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: they quietly ship him off somewhere else after some period

1010
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 2: of time and decide not to go through with the trial.

1011
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 10: I don't think so, I mean not in my opinion.

1012
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 10: I think Maduro really thought that this wouldn't happen, and

1013
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 10: that's why he was sort of taunting Trump. But I mean,

1014
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 10: Madure's always been trying to negotiate and basically everything else

1015
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 10: he's going to do now, Meduro essentially would have done.

1016
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 10: It's just that he wouldn't have done it in the

1017
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 10: same way. So no, I don't think that he was

1018
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:20,919
Speaker 10: in on it. I don't think where he is right now.

1019
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 10: That's not a place where anyone would voluntarily go to.

1020
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 10: The case is real. They have some pretty star witnesses.

1021
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 10: It doesn't mean that all the evidence is going to

1022
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 10: hold up, but there is witness testimony. They have some

1023
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 10: key figures. They have the former head of military Venezuelan

1024
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 10: military Intelligence is in the same prison as Maduro and

1025
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 10: he's already singing.

1026
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: And Luigi Mangioni all hanging out together in the same person.

1027
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, there are a lot of figures there,

1028
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 10: but in terms of this particular case, there's aspects of

1029
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 10: it that obviously are not going to hold up. Some

1030
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,280
Speaker 10: of the chargers are ridiculous, but there are other things

1031
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 10: that they could try to make work. And I mean,

1032
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 10: there's no one possibly who could believe that Manduro is

1033
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,280
Speaker 10: going to get a fair trial in the United States.

1034
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,879
Speaker 10: So certainly his lawyers are going to try to get

1035
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 10: the charges dismissed, to get it thrown out because of

1036
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,880
Speaker 10: the way that he was captured. Obviously it was an

1037
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,920
Speaker 10: illegal violation of international law. There's no question, however, if

1038
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 10: it played out that somehow there was an agreement that

1039
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 10: Delsi had sort of taken over and permitted this. Then

1040
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,800
Speaker 10: they could say that it was authorized by the government

1041
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 10: that they were recognizing in Venezuela. You know, we don't

1042
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 10: really know some of the issues behind the scenes that

1043
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 10: will come out in discovery if the case does proceed

1044
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 10: to trial, but I could see it actually happening. At

1045
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 10: some point further down the line. There could be a deal.

1046
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 10: There could certainly be a deal. I mean, they have

1047
00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 10: his wife too. It would be very sad. I'm just

1048
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 10: saying from a human perspective. Also, I know them. They

1049
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 10: would be in prison basically for the rest of their life.

1050
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 10: These are two people who spent the past, you know,

1051
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,479
Speaker 10: thirty plus years together. Every day they are a team.

1052
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 10: You know, they're a very solid couple. They're going to

1053
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 10: be separate. I saw at least, you know, as they

1054
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 10: go into trial, they're still together, but at some point

1055
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 10: in prison, they're going to be separated and they may

1056
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 10: never see each other again, so, you know, or there

1057
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 10: could be a negotiation further on the line that gets

1058
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 10: Celia at least released and sent somewhere. But it would

1059
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 10: be hard to imagine that this would have been some

1060
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 10: facade planned by all of them just to appease Trump

1061
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 10: and give him his victory. It seems more likely that

1062
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 10: Trump had a build up in the military in the

1063
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 10: region that if he wasn't going to use it, he

1064
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 10: was going to look like a big loser, right, and

1065
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 10: Maduro would have come out extremely fortified and strengthened, and

1066
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 10: they would never have left. They would never have left.

1067
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 10: So at least this way, two sides get a victory.

1068
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 10: Trump gets his man, he gets his show, and the

1069
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 10: same regime stays in power in Venezuela. And so it's

1070
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 10: just a question of you know, how long will this

1071
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 10: play out? And is Trump so emboldened now that he's

1072
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:55,359
Speaker 10: going to go after Cuba, for example, which seems to

1073
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 10: be next on the list, at least from Rubio's perspective.

1074
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 2: But one last thing I wanted to to get your

1075
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 2: reaction to, because you did know Hugo Chaves so well

1076
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: wrote a book about him. This clip has been circulansud before, guys,

1077
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: and we can put this up on the screen where

1078
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: he effectively predicts exactly the chain of events that occurs.

1079
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 2: He says, years ago, someone told me they're going to

1080
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 2: end up accusing you of being a drug trafficker you personally,

1081
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 2: you Javes, not just that the government supports that are

1082
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 2: permits it. No, they're going to try to apply the

1083
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 2: Noriega formula to you. And we have now heard a

1084
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 2: lot about the Noriega formula and you know, Panama being

1085
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,480
Speaker 2: held up as like the positive example of what is

1086
00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 2: being done in Venezuela now, So just wanted to get

1087
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 2: your you know, thoughts and reflections on that clip that

1088
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:41,879
Speaker 2: is now making the rounds again.

1089
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,200
Speaker 10: No, no doubt, I mean Chaves knew what was in

1090
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 10: the works for that, he knew the danger that it presented,

1091
00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:52,840
Speaker 10: the fact that you know, he was his movement and

1092
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 10: his ideology was about nationalism and sovereignty and that Venezuela

1093
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,359
Speaker 10: sits atop the world's largest oil reserves. And even as

1094
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:03,600
Speaker 10: part of the research work that I did, because I

1095
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 10: investigated and you know, unraveled the entire US and CIA

1096
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 10: roll in the coup detag against Javas in two thousand

1097
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 10: and two and subsequent destabilization and intervention attempts over the

1098
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 10: years until his death that frankly have continued to date

1099
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 10: and we've now seen them play out explicitly. But there

1100
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 10: were invasion plans drawn up planned Balboa was drawn up

1101
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 10: and practiced as a war exercise against targeting Venezuela to

1102
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 10: take control of the oil reserves and to divide the

1103
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 10: movement internally and to take out and decapitate the leftist leader.

1104
00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 10: I mean, this has been a scenario they have been

1105
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 10: planning now for over twenty five years. Essentially when Chavas

1106
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 10: took not only one office, but refused to obey at

1107
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 10: that time George W. Bush's mandate that he would take

1108
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 10: him under his wing and you know, ensure that the

1109
00:53:55,120 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 10: US would continue all access into Venezuela's oil industry. So

1110
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 10: certainly that that's what's going on here. I mean, I

1111
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,680
Speaker 10: haven't seen all the evidence, but from experience, I could

1112
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 10: say that I would find it highly unlikely that Nicholas

1113
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 10: Maduro is a drug kingpin. Certainly there there are there

1114
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 10: is circumstantial evidence of drug shipments. Venezuela doesn't produce drugs,

1115
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 10: so it's not made in Venezuela. They're coming from Colombia,

1116
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,800
Speaker 10: from Ecuador. You know, they have been facilitated through the country.

1117
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 10: There's no question of that. There's there's plenty of evidence

1118
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 10: pointing to that. But pointing to Maduro himself running the

1119
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 10: show and the operation. That's just very hard to believe

1120
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 10: and highly unlikely. But nevertheless, being the leader of the country,

1121
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 10: they can try to pin it all on him, especially

1122
00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 10: now that he's the one they've captured exactly right.

1123
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,200
Speaker 1: You know, if you can pin machine gun by somebody,

1124
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous.

1125
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 10: I mean, cou even is that.

1126
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's unbelievable. I mean, I've reported this. I

1127
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,800
Speaker 3: was told directly by somebody who spoke with him. He said,

1128
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 3: I have all the oil and all the gold.

1129
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 1: What the F do I need to deal drugs for?

1130
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:07,640
Speaker 1: That's apparently what he said. So Maduro said that apparently

1131
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: to us.

1132
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,439
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, he's not dealing drugs, but it is true.

1133
00:55:10,760 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 10: You know, I think another thing, just because a lot

1134
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 10: of people always talk about the oil. You know, Venezuela

1135
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 10: has vast resources, huge amounts of gold, they have all

1136
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:23,320
Speaker 10: kinds of heavy metals, aluminum. You know, there's a massive

1137
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 10: industry in Venezuela of rare earths. Everything that is desired

1138
00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 10: frankly from the Trump administration. So it's really no surprise

1139
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 10: that this has been played out in this way. It's

1140
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:39,720
Speaker 10: a very sad and tragic time though for Venezuelans. Nobody

1141
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 10: wanted this inside Venezuela, amongst the Venezuelan people, and they're

1142
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 10: the ones who are going to pay the price.

1143
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for your analysis has just been excellent.

1144
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:48,919
Speaker 3: We hope you'll come back again.

1145
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, great to meet Rireva.

1146
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:51,520
Speaker 10: Thank you thanks for having me on