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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Current and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: A deluge of allegations ever more serious, coordinated campaign of intimidation.

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Speaker 1: Eighty other women have made allegations of misconduct against him.

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Speaker 1: His employment was terminated effective immediately. Five years ago. On October,

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Speaker 1: The New York Times published an article written by Jody

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Speaker 1: Canter and Megan Tuohey. The headline read, Harvey Weinstein paid

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Speaker 1: off sexual harassment accusers for decades, fueled by the Hollywood

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Speaker 1: stars in the story. Jody and Megan's reporting made the

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Speaker 1: me too movement, started by Toronto Burke back in two

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Speaker 1: thousand six, go viral. Thousands of women are using two

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Speaker 1: words on social media to identify themselves as survivors of

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment and assault. Today it's hashtag me too. Millions

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Speaker 1: of me two's out there on social media, leading to

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Speaker 1: the downfall of so many power full man Matt Loward,

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Speaker 1: Charlie Rose, chef Mario Batali, comedian Louis c k, actor

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Speaker 1: Kevin Spacey. Harvey Weinstein convicted on two counts of sexual assault.

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Speaker 1: The met movement has hit the banking world. More than

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Speaker 1: one and fifty women accused. Larry Nasser, a former doctor

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Speaker 1: for USA gymnastics of sexual abuse at the doors of

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, where you can see protesters have gathered

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Speaker 1: their demanding that their voices be heard. Women in India,

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Speaker 1: em Paris, in the Middleast are saying enough is enough.

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Speaker 1: In Jodi Cantor and Megan Twoey won the Pulitzer Prize

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Speaker 1: for Public Service in twenty nineteen. They published a book

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Speaker 1: called She Said that took readers behind the scenes of

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Speaker 1: that incredible investigation. And now the journalists and their work

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Speaker 1: are the subject of a feature film of the same name,

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Speaker 1: She said, stars Carrie Mulligan as Megan Tuey and Zoe

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Speaker 1: Kazan as Jodi Canter. What is it exactly that we're

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Speaker 1: looking at here? We're looking at extreme sexual harassment in

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Speaker 1: the workplace. These young women walked into what they all

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Speaker 1: had reason to believe, we're business meetings with a producer

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Speaker 1: and employer. They were hopeful, they were expecting a serious

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Speaker 1: conversation about their work or a possible project. Instead, they

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Speaker 1: say he met them with threats and sexual demands. They

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Speaker 1: claim assault and rape. If that can happen to Hollywood actresses,

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Speaker 1: who else is it happening to today? I'm in conversation

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Speaker 1: with Jody and Megan about the movie, the power of journalism,

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Speaker 1: and the lasting impact of Me Too. First off, is

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Speaker 1: it bizarre for you? I mean, this is a new situation.

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Speaker 1: You all have interviewed other people your entire careers with.

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Speaker 1: She said, You've started being on the other side of

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Speaker 1: the table. Have you gotten used to being the subject

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Speaker 1: instead of the reporter? No, we're totally flabbergasted. I mean

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Speaker 1: we started out, we started out investigating a Hollywood producer.

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Speaker 1: So even with this movie coming out, and even with

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Speaker 1: you know, ads everywhere and people asking us about it,

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Speaker 1: we're still honestly a little confused about how likenesses of

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Speaker 1: ourselves ended up on the big screen. I'm sure. I mean, Megan,

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Speaker 1: is it freaky for you? Are you still getting used

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Speaker 1: to it? Oh? Absolutely? I mean we in this process

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Speaker 1: began as they were making the film and Zoe and

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Speaker 1: Zoe Kazan and Carrie Mulligan spent time with Me and

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Speaker 1: Jody as they were preparing to play us. They asked

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Speaker 1: us questions, They observed us all the things that we're

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Speaker 1: accustomed to doing as reporters, you know, carefully observing our

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Speaker 1: sources and figuring out what information to extract in our

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Speaker 1: telling of stories and our articles, and so to watch

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Speaker 1: them have conducted that research on us and to now

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Speaker 1: see that expressed on the big screen is certainly surreal.

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Speaker 1: But we're also really impressed with the care that they took. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's talk about that. I mean, did they follow you

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Speaker 1: around at the times? Did they follow you around at home?

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Speaker 1: I mean, what was that? Like, Jody, you had Zoe

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Speaker 1: obviously who played played you in the movie. Um, did

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Speaker 1: she spend time with you at home and at work? Absolutely?

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Speaker 1: But the blueprint was really our book, you know, as

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Speaker 1: as you know, after the Weinstein investigation and after me

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Speaker 1: too blew up globally, we felt like the story did

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Speaker 1: not just belong to us and belonged to everybody, and

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Speaker 1: we wrote our book to take people behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: into the process. You know, remember that we we we

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Speaker 1: didn't know if we would get the story, and we

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Speaker 1: didn't know if anyone would care. And you know, Weinstein

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Speaker 1: turns out to have been more manipulative then we knew

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Speaker 1: at the time. And and also we really wanted to

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Speaker 1: highlight our sources. I mean, in the book, we wanted

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Speaker 1: to show that this was not just Hollywood actresses. This

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Speaker 1: was a series of women, including some who were not

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Speaker 1: famous at all, who made a brave series of decisions

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Speaker 1: to help us and had extraordinary impact as a result.

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Speaker 1: So the book I think was kind of the blueprint

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Speaker 1: for the film. And then the filmmakers and the actors

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Speaker 1: did spend some time with us. They you know, had

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Speaker 1: a million zillion questions for us, but we had questions

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Speaker 1: for them too, because we're reporters and we want to

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Speaker 1: know how things work, and and you know what we

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Speaker 1: were getting into. So I think it was sort of

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Speaker 1: a mutual question asking process. I remember reading I think

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Speaker 1: Megan that Carrie Mulligan would ask you how you felt

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Speaker 1: at certain junctures when you were covering this story, when

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Speaker 1: a source came through, when Harvey's lawyer was kind of

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Speaker 1: talking to you, and and she really tried to incorporate,

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Speaker 1: I think, as did Zoe Jodie, kind of the emotional

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Speaker 1: experience for you all as reporters, the frustration, the jubilation

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Speaker 1: when somebody would come forward, Um, tell me about that,

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Speaker 1: and watching her mimic you on the big screen, so

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Speaker 1: you're you know, you're absolutely right. I mean, Carrie, you

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Speaker 1: know when she was Zoe lives here in Brooklyn, and

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Speaker 1: so she and Jodi were able to kind of connect

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Speaker 1: and start spending time together. For when I when Carrie

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Speaker 1: first got the part, she was living in England, and

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Speaker 1: so we would we first connected over zoom, and then

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Speaker 1: when she relocated to New York for filming, she actually

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Speaker 1: moved into our neighborhood in Park Slope with her family,

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Speaker 1: and so over a course of some weeks we spent

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Speaker 1: time together in person, and we had play dates with

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Speaker 1: our children, and which I think she was observing, you know,

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Speaker 1: not just what I was like professionally, but also what

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Speaker 1: I was like in my home life with my husband,

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Speaker 1: with my daughter, because as you know, this movie also

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Speaker 1: depicts Jody and I in our private lives, which is

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Speaker 1: a huge leap for us and somefow we were also

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Speaker 1: I think made us feel a little bit vulnerable. Well,

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Speaker 1: how how did you say? Why did you say yes

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Speaker 1: to that? And be how did you feel seeing that portrayed?

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Speaker 1: First of all, obviously you have rock star husbands who

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Speaker 1: are so supportive of you all professionally, but it did

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Speaker 1: show some intimate stuff about your home life, and MegaNet

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Speaker 1: talked about some postpartum depression issues that you were having.

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Speaker 1: I mean, was that a tough decision for for you

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Speaker 1: to open your lives up in that way? I mean

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Speaker 1: I would say that it was there. Yes, it was

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Speaker 1: a little bit. I think we did feel vulnerable, as

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Speaker 1: I was saying, but we also felt like this movie

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Speaker 1: was an opportunity to do something I think that's pretty

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Speaker 1: rare in movies, which is to depict the lives of

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Speaker 1: working women. And you know, we aren't just living at

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Speaker 1: in the newsroom. We aren't just in many ways we

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Speaker 1: are living our stories, but we do, especially in my case,

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Speaker 1: I had a newborn when I first started this investigation.

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Speaker 1: It was a story I started right when we came

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Speaker 1: back from Man when I came back from maternity leave.

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Speaker 1: Jody had two daughters, including a you know, a very

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Speaker 1: young toddler at the time, and so I think that

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Speaker 1: it would have been incomplete story if you didn't show, uh,

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Speaker 1: some of the struggles that come with that, but also

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Speaker 1: some of the real satisfaction that comes from doing work

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Speaker 1: that we think can hopefully impact our daughters. And so

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Speaker 1: I think that while we felt vulnerable in opening ourselves

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Speaker 1: up that way to be depicted on the screen and

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Speaker 1: in our private lives. I think that there's a big payoff,

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Speaker 1: and I think that a lot of women are going

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Speaker 1: to see themselves reflected back in this movie, no matter

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Speaker 1: what their line of work. And also it's a film

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Speaker 1: about the truth. I mean, it really is, and like

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Speaker 1: beyond you know, any vanity or vulnerability about you know,

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Speaker 1: I look the sway and screen or I like that

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Speaker 1: wind screen. The main thing that they captured that's so

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Speaker 1: so so important is the sincerity of the journalism and

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Speaker 1: the sources. It's such a gift to see a depiction

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Speaker 1: of journalism as we try to practice it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are so many representations of journalists in which you know,

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Speaker 1: you've seen this, Katie, like we're shown to be manipulative

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Speaker 1: or doing it for the wrong reasons. I think of

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Speaker 1: the Harry Potter box and you know, read a Skeeter.

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Speaker 1: The journalist character is like the lowest of the low.

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Speaker 1: And I always think this is the book we give

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Speaker 1: to kids who read, kids who love to read. We're

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Speaker 1: telling them that, like, a journalist is a terrible, terrible person.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, the biggest compliment the

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Speaker 1: filmmakers paid not just to Magan and I, but you know,

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Speaker 1: to the New York Times and journalists all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Is to show that, you know, it's non glamorous. It's

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Speaker 1: really hard. Um, you're asking people to take really big risks.

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Speaker 1: You're asking questions that may seem inappropriate. It's not a

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Speaker 1: nine to five job. You are sort of called in

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Speaker 1: the middle of the night. You don't know what you're

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Speaker 1: gonna find. There's no guarantee. But the truth is really

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Speaker 1: powerful and these stories matter. I mean for a lot

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Speaker 1: of these women. You know, they like for a lot

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Speaker 1: of these women, these were stories they tried to leave

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Speaker 1: in the past. These were they like they were like

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Speaker 1: really like this personal thing that happened to me years ago,

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Speaker 1: Like it really has significance. And I think the movie says, yes,

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Speaker 1: yes it has. It has significance. It really matters to people.

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Speaker 1: There's a powerful moment in the film, and I'm paraphrasing,

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Speaker 1: but it's sort of a bit of a eureka journalistic

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Speaker 1: moment for the two of you when you realize that

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Speaker 1: if the women come together, it will be much easier

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Speaker 1: for them to tell their stories. In other words, sort

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Speaker 1: of they're being power in numbers. How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about it now? I feel like it dictated a certain

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Speaker 1: direction my life took that. I just felt that it

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Speaker 1: was this huge era of judgment that sort of marked

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Speaker 1: me and all my decisions. And I felt such shame

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Speaker 1: that I let him do that. Did you think that

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Speaker 1: he had done the same to other girls? I thought

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Speaker 1: that he must have tried it, but that they dolls,

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Speaker 1: they do said no. It was like he took my

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Speaker 1: voice that day, just when I was about to start

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Speaker 1: finding it. And I do think that the movie does

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Speaker 1: an extraordinary job of showing the damage that Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 1: did to so many young women. Can you talk about

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Speaker 1: that and at Megan and how you feel that was

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Speaker 1: portrayed and why that was so important to you? Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I think you know, as Jodi pointed out, we really

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was a bit of a leap for

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Speaker 1: us to allow you to turn over this investigation two filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and even in a lot of the movies that have

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Speaker 1: been made about journalism, you may get to know the journalists,

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Speaker 1: but you don't necessarily get to know the sources. And

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Speaker 1: so that was something that we really hoped would be

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Speaker 1: part of this film and it is. I think that's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's most remarkable is that for

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Speaker 1: I think for a lot of people, they associate the

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Speaker 1: Weinstein story with all of these famous actresses who came forward,

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Speaker 1: and this movie really shines light on some of the

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Speaker 1: more regular women, the women who had worked for him

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Speaker 1: as assistants or as junior ecuatives in his company. They

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Speaker 1: went to work for him because, like so many women

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Speaker 1: starting out at like twenty one or twenty two or

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Speaker 1: twenty four, they wanted to break into this industry. They

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Speaker 1: wanted to They thought that it was going to be,

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Speaker 1: you know, a window into UM, a world in which

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Speaker 1: they could succeed behind the scenes as producers, UM in

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Speaker 1: other roles. And uh, instead they were you know, instead,

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Speaker 1: they experienced attacks and harassment and abuse. And to see

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Speaker 1: in this movie the toll that that has taken on

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Speaker 1: their lives so many years later, I mean, it wrote

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Speaker 1: them out of the industry. They basically and you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the women, Zelda Perkins, who was a source

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Speaker 1: in this story UM told who who had been silenced

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Speaker 1: by Weinstein. There's a wonderful scene, true to life scene

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Speaker 1: where she's meeting with Jody and she says, you know,

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Speaker 1: and she left that she basically went off to Guatemala

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Speaker 1: after this happened. Um. She she literally like like fled um,

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Speaker 1: not just the industry, but the country. And so I

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Speaker 1: think you can see. I think that film does a

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Speaker 1: really really great job of capturing the toll that this takes,

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Speaker 1: not just in the moment, but for decades. I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, just even doing research for my book and

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Speaker 1: talking to some of the people who had been victimized

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Speaker 1: by Matt, I was astounded by the trauma that still

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Speaker 1: exists today, the residual trauma, and how much it has

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Speaker 1: shaped their lives, um going forward. And it was very

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Speaker 1: true obviously with all the victims. And in fact, the

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Speaker 1: movie starts with a young Laura Madden, you know, running

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Speaker 1: and and then you revisit her and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I just think it's so powerful because I think so

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Speaker 1: often this kind of behavior has been dismissed like oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, get over it. And I think it's so

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Speaker 1: important to show the lifelong ramifications of this exactly. People

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Speaker 1: think the Weinstein stories about sex, and of course it's

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Speaker 1: about sexual misconduct, but it's really about work, you know,

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Speaker 1: these these women. What unites all of these women with

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Speaker 1: Weinstein stories is that whether they were actresses or assistants.

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Speaker 1: You know, they wanted opportunity, they wanted a piece of

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Speaker 1: the action, and Weinstein used that to make them vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: You know, this wasn't like a producer meeting women in

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Speaker 1: a bar. It was always a work situation. I've a script,

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Speaker 1: I want to show. You, come up to my room

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Speaker 1: to watch the dailies. And so for a lot of

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Speaker 1: those women, part of the loss is the career loss,

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Speaker 1: you know, the feeling like I can't get those years back,

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Speaker 1: Like that's like I'm forty something, fifty something years old now,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's you know, it's never going to happen

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Speaker 1: for me in the same way that it could have.

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Speaker 1: But also the shame I was going to say, this

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Speaker 1: shame that that continues to haunt them as as adults. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and one of the things I think

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Speaker 1: this film finally lets us confront something that was always

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Speaker 1: a little uncomfortable in our relationship with them, which is

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Speaker 1: that we've had such a supportive workplace and in the

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Speaker 1: film you see these editors like gently pushing us forward

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Speaker 1: and kind of you know, pushing us to do better

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Speaker 1: and enough for you standing up protecting us men, but

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Speaker 1: also like standing up for us, but kind of also

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Speaker 1: thrusting us forward. You know, Weinstein always wanted to talk

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Speaker 1: to Dean McKay, big boss man to man, and he says,

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Speaker 1: talk to my reporters. You know. So you've got this

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Speaker 1: sort of like a series of great bosses um flaming us,

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Speaker 1: and I think in the film they become a kind

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Speaker 1: of implicit contrast to Weinstein after the break? Is that

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Speaker 1: really how it happened? Jody and Megan separate fiction from

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Speaker 1: fact in the movie version of their book. How did

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Speaker 1: you feel when you first saw the movie? Did you think, oh,

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Speaker 1: they really captured the essence of the story of the

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Speaker 1: victims of us who we are? Or did you was

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Speaker 1: there any part of you that was a little I

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Speaker 1: think we're really comfortable with this film as a work

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Speaker 1: of art that's based on real events. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of like there are three categories in the film.

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Speaker 1: There really are some scenes that are so true to life.

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Speaker 1: I mean, dialogue that we recorded in these interviews, you know,

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Speaker 1: got a transcript of used for the book, and then

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Speaker 1: the screenwriter, Rebecca Lanuitz used it too. Then there's a

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Speaker 1: category of stuff that of course is like invented or

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Speaker 1: altered or a little bit different because they're making a

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Speaker 1: feature film, not a documentary, and and part of their

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Speaker 1: goal is to produce something, you know, that keeps you glued,

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Speaker 1: and it's really you know, has that kind of galvanizing

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Speaker 1: feeling of of watching a journalistic procedural, and then you know,

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Speaker 1: it's funny. There's kind of this third category that's the

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Speaker 1: most interesting of all of stuff that did not actually

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Speaker 1: happen in real life, but is like very true in

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Speaker 1: a non literal way. Like there's the scene where Megan's

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Speaker 1: character tells off a guy in the bar who's harassing

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Speaker 1: the reporters, and it's it's funny if you know, Megan,

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Speaker 1: because it did not happen that way in real life.

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Speaker 1: But I mean it's kind of something you would do, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it didn't happen with my boss and my

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Speaker 1: reporting partner, but it has happened in the past another

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Speaker 1: in other situations, So it was sort of character wise

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Speaker 1: in terms of your personality, and it felt true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And the and the book is our place to keep

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Speaker 1: a really precise record, like if I mean, if people

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Speaker 1: want to come into the true investigation and like really

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Speaker 1: inhale the details and and know that everything they're reading

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Speaker 1: is precise. Then the book is you know, we've got

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Speaker 1: a place to do that you know already. Um. And

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Speaker 1: so I think the movie Can, the movie can Can

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Speaker 1: kind of live on a parallel track is something that's

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Speaker 1: you know a little different, um, but that you know

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Speaker 1: where we can we can really appreciate and celebrate. Were

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Speaker 1: you consulted by the way. Did they say, hey, we're

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Speaker 1: thinking about casting Zoe as you Jody and carry as

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Speaker 1: you Megan? No, No, they did. I mean they did

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Speaker 1: do a lot of consulting with us, and so that's

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Speaker 1: something that we really appreciate it Along the way, we

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Speaker 1: recognize that that didn't necessarily have to be the case.

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Speaker 1: So they were while it's not a documentary, they did

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Speaker 1: spend the filmmakers did spend a lot of time consulting

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Speaker 1: with us because I think they wanted to get this right,

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Speaker 1: to do this depiction with as much accuracy and integrity

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Speaker 1: as possible, knowing that you can't make a documentary. When

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Speaker 1: you heard about the actors who were going to be

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Speaker 1: portraying you, were you like, oh, yeah, I can see

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Speaker 1: that that works. Yeah, I mean, listen, you don't. You

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Speaker 1: don't ever, you know, Jody and I didn't sort of

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Speaker 1: spend you know, We've been in this business what for

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Speaker 1: like twenty years, and I can't say that there's As journalists,

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Speaker 1: you don't walk around ever imagining that you're going to

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Speaker 1: be depicted on like a movie, right, You're not. You're

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Speaker 1: You're never kind of going about your reporting thinking like, wow,

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Speaker 1: if somebody was depicting me on the big screen, who

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Speaker 1: would it be. So I don't think that we had

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Speaker 1: spent a ton of time, um, contemplating who those people

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Speaker 1: might be. But when they came to us with the

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Speaker 1: casting decisions that we made that they had made, we

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Speaker 1: were thrilled, not only because these two actresses are so accomplished,

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Speaker 1: but they also have like a really special friendship. So

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Speaker 1: they they've worked together, yes, yes, yeah, they have. They

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Speaker 1: they are very close. Like they came in with a

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Speaker 1: pre existing partnership and love for each other that I

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Speaker 1: think actually you can see on the screen. So for

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Speaker 1: Jody and I, that was also something that seemed like,

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Speaker 1: ah ha, like what what a great what what a

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Speaker 1: great fit for this, you know, to play our partnership.

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Speaker 1: Having said that, you know, you guys were thrown together

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Speaker 1: really to do this this reporting and kind of put

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Speaker 1: together as a team. How well did their relationship on

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Speaker 1: screen reflect your relationship in real life. There is a

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Speaker 1: very funny scene when you're at the door and you

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Speaker 1: say that that Jody needs to kind of take the

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Speaker 1: lead on when someone answers the door, and anyway, you

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Speaker 1: make a joke about her being short, less intimidating. I think, yes,

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Speaker 1: less intimidating. You know, it's funny. I mean, Katie, it's

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Speaker 1: such a good question because I actually think that might

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Speaker 1: be like kind of the wildest thing about the whole

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Speaker 1: movie for me, because like I mean, use the sister analogy,

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Speaker 1: like we feel we've kind of become sisters through this experience,

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Speaker 1: but it is also like a marriage, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and it's a real marriage, like we like friends warned

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Speaker 1: me a couple of years ago that a lot of

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Speaker 1: these work partnerships become very performative or they break up,

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Speaker 1: you know, and there's like this outward you know, there's

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Speaker 1: this outward partnership that other people see, but like the

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Speaker 1: core you know, is hollow or rotten in some way.

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Speaker 1: And we've made a decision that we did not want

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Speaker 1: to be like that. So this is like a very

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Speaker 1: real relationship where I mean, even when there's not some

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Speaker 1: crazy movie thing going on, we're talking to each other

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Speaker 1: about our reporting, you know, our own lives. We sit

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Speaker 1: facing one another room. I can't really imagine making like

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Speaker 1: an important life decision without talking to you blocks away

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Speaker 1: from each other. Yeah, and I you know, I feel

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Speaker 1: like I guess I do really feel like we're on

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Speaker 1: an intellectual and personal journey together. And also that because

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, we had no idea that this story

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Speaker 1: was going to have any impact, and so ever since,

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Speaker 1: you know, this movie is only the latest example of

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Speaker 1: us being thrown into some sort of situation where we

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Speaker 1: were like, okay, like how like how are we going

385
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Speaker 1: to make good decisions here? How are we going to

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Speaker 1: handle this? And it's so nice that you have each

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Speaker 1: other to sounding boards and to check your judgment and

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Speaker 1: your guts, to have sort of a sister type person

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Speaker 1: to really talk things through with, right, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just it's just it's yeah, And so I think

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Speaker 1: for that, I think for that to be captured on

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Speaker 1: screen is really special. Obviously, it feels like when you're

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Speaker 1: in it, you know, and experiencing like the rainbow of colors,

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Speaker 1: you know, and emotions um involved in your own relationship

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Speaker 1: with the person. It feels a little different it I

396
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Speaker 1: think what you know, a critical massive people have seen

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Speaker 1: the movie early, and one of the biggest responses we're

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Speaker 1: getting is just what a pleasure it is to see

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Speaker 1: this kind of female collaboration on film. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: not movie people, but even as audience members, you know,

401
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: we were searching our minds for like other films that

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Speaker 1: are led by two female partners and two professional women

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Speaker 1: who are work collaborators and who are there primarily because

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Speaker 1: of their brains, and who are both like kind of agents,

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00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: you know, who are like both driving the action, and

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Speaker 1: it is incredibly rare. So you know, I just feel

407
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Speaker 1: so lucky that we get to share that part of

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Speaker 1: our relationship with people, and I think people are going

409
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Speaker 1: to really identify with it because it's so common in

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Speaker 1: the real world, even if even if Hollywood is a

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Speaker 1: little behind and representing it. When we come back the

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Speaker 1: power of journalism and the comfort of the newsroom, this

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Speaker 1: movie really focused on not only the power of journalism,

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Speaker 1: but the excitement of journalism, the mission of journalism, and

415
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Speaker 1: this is a tough time for journalists. As you know,

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Speaker 1: distrust in the media I think is at an all

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Speaker 1: time high. Uh. And do you hope that this will

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Speaker 1: encourage young people? I feel like I'm ninety whenever I

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Speaker 1: say young people, but young people to go into journalism.

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Speaker 1: And do you think that it will restore some amount

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Speaker 1: of faith in the institution. This is the critically important

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Speaker 1: institution of journalism, even though that has a broad definition

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Speaker 1: these days. Absolutely, I mean I don't think that this

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Speaker 1: I think this movie is coming out in some ways

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Speaker 1: at the perfect time. I mean in a moment in

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Speaker 1: this country's evolution where you've got these claims of fake

427
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Speaker 1: news and such polarization and what can sometimes feel like

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Speaker 1: a breakdown of our basic understanding of the facts. I

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Speaker 1: think too, to see a movie that really depicts, um,

430
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: step by step, what it takes to actually report out

431
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: a story with accuracy and with integrity, and all of

432
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: the challenges that we have to overcome to press that

433
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:36,399
Speaker 1: published button, um and send something out to press, I

434
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: think it's such an exciting moment when you they click published,

435
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's a yeah, yeah, spoiler alert. I think

436
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: every I think everybody knows how this movie Yeah Um,

437
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: I think that that's I feel like there's I feel

438
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: like it's going to be both. I think it's going

439
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,360
Speaker 1: to be an entertaining public service for people to see

440
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: how that process actually works and to also see the

441
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 1: power of the truth. I mean, that's one of the

442
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: reasons that we initially wanted to write our book was

443
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: that it really felt like this was a story that

444
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: kind of stood out, um in the fact that it

445
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: that there was such consensus around there. Nobody was sort

446
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: of challenging whether or not this story was accurate. I mean,

447
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: there was there wasn't sort of a splintering of understanding

448
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 1: or perceptions of whether this story was accurate. It really

449
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 1: was a rare moment in which sort of all readers

450
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: seemed to agree, Okay, they actually found the truth and

451
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: they've reported it, and there's not a debate over what happened.

452
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: The real debate is over what needs to happen in response.

453
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: And so we really wanted to take readers behind the

454
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: scenes and show them the process of executing a story

455
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 1: like that that created such consensus. When all the president's

456
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: men came out, I believe in nineteen seventy six, it

457
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: inspired a whole generation of people to go into journalism whatever.

458
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: I get the Kim and you don't hang up to

459
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: solid did he confirm it? Actually get a bread? Do

460
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: you hope, Jody? In some ways this does the same thing.

461
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: I think it's already happening. I hope the movie helps.

462
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: But um, Megan and I have visited a lot of

463
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 1: campuses in the last couple of years, and we're blown

464
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 1: away by the level of interest in journalism because I mean,

465
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,479
Speaker 1: this next generation like they're looking for work with meaning,

466
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: They're looking for work that can have impact, and some

467
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 1: of them are already doing it. The load that student

468
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: journalists are carrying right now. You know, back in my day,

469
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: student journalism was more like, you know, reporting the high

470
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 1: school basketball scores. Now these college students are you know,

471
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: they're writing about COVID policy on campus. They're writing about

472
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: sexual assault, you know, to change, climate change, the front

473
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: like really serious controversies embroiling their campuses, and so, I

474
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, I hope, I hope this makes them feel

475
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,239
Speaker 1: really invited a d I hope them. I want them

476
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: to see The New York Times not as something you know, remote, um,

477
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: an elitist, but as a place that's accessible to them.

478
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: And I also, you know, maybe this is too much

479
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: to ask, but I find the news room so comforting.

480
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: You know, like when I walk in there, just knowing

481
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 1: that this paper, that it has the right values of

482
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 1: inquiry and truth, that everybody there is just so dedicated

483
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: to serving our readers. Um that the places that it's

484
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: like an institution that you know, even though it's not perfect,

485
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: has really lived its values for a very long time.

486
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: I like, given the tumult of our world right now,

487
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 1: I find the place comforting. I can understand that I

488
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: love newsrooms. I love the idea of people kind of

489
00:29:54,400 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: working together, all committed to helping people understand in the

490
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: world are uncovering the truth. There's something so I mean,

491
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 1: I missed going to a newsroom all the time, not

492
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: only kind of the cacophony of all the things, although

493
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: now it's much more quiet because everyone has the ear

494
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 1: buds in and they're working on their computers, but you know,

495
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: just the sensibility and the teamwork and the fact that

496
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: you have like minded maybe too many like minded colleagues

497
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,400
Speaker 1: working you know, altogether for one goal. And I think

498
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: it's I don't think there's any place like it. Amen. Amen,

499
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: and before we go, because I know you all have

500
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: a meeting. But when it comes to the Me Too movement,

501
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: and I know you all have been asked about this

502
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: a lot, but what do you think the legacy of

503
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 1: your reporting and really the entire movement is. We know

504
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: that Toronto Burke really started this for young black women, uh,

505
00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: much earlier than it than when it became so known

506
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: to the public. I guess my question is two parts. Um,

507
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: do you think that black and brown women have been

508
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 1: brought into the me too fold enough? And what do

509
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: you think is the the the legacy of this movement

510
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: really spearheaded by your unparalleled reporting. So let's let me

511
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 1: ask the first question. First. Megan the issue about brown

512
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,479
Speaker 1: and black women, and I would even argue women of

513
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: a lower socioeconomic status, you know, women who are on

514
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: the factory floor, women who are uh you know, working

515
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 1: menial jobs, domestic workers, etcetera. Yeah, listen, I think it's

516
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: a really important question. And I had been doing coverage

517
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: of sex crimes and sexual misconduct for years actually before

518
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: the Weinstein story, and had done I worked at the

519
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune and did many stories. They're looking at sex

520
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: crimes in which black and Brown and women were the

521
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: primarily the victims and the injustice that they've received from

522
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: the criminal justice system, from these other systems that were,

523
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: you know, doing very little to protect them and allowing

524
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: to punish their abusers. And so it was interesting when

525
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: the when when we first started the Weinstein story, and

526
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: then the movie actually depicts that, I had some skepticism

527
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: about actually reporting into these initially thinking that these were

528
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: that this was going to be a story that was

529
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: just about famous, you know, primarily like white Hollywood actresses,

530
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: and I it took me. There's a scene in which,

531
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: a true to life scene in which I'm actually kind

532
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 1: of pressing Jody on that, and I'm saying, is this

533
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: the best use of our resources to be Um, don't

534
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: these women have voices of their own? Do they really

535
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: need the help in the resources of the New York Times?

536
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: And she said, listen, if this is happening to women

537
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 1: in Hollywood, then nobody's protected if it's also happening to

538
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: these amous actresses. And so I think that there's no

539
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: question that there was a correlation between kind of the

540
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: face of the Weinstein story and the impact that it had.

541
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: But I think that what's clear as well, is that

542
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: at least the journalism that's taken place at the New

543
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: York Times. This was one of many stories that The

544
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: Times did on sexual harassment and sexual abuse that reported

545
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: into all different types of workplaces and onto the you know,

546
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: onto factory floors, into the service industry, um, looking at

547
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: women from all different types of backgrounds. And so I

548
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 1: think that there's no question that at least at the

549
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: New York Times, there was a real commitment to make

550
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: sure that this was This obviously ended up being one

551
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 1: story that had kind of an outsized impact and and

552
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: helped kind of make this movement go viral, but it

553
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: was in no way the only thing that covered. And

554
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: I think we've seen and I think one of the

555
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 1: things that's happened, especially because Toronto Burke has was the

556
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: one who had actually launched me to to begin with

557
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: and has become I think even more of a public

558
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: figure in these last five years, is I mean, We're

559
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: it's just been incredible to watch her making sure, um,

560
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: constantly pushing to make sure that that that black and

561
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: brown women get and receive the attention that they deserve

562
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: within this broader social movement, which is you know, taking

563
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: interesting twists and turns. And I think what's important to

564
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: know is that five years after this movement went viral,

565
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting to have this movie come out

566
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: that takes you back to these like first hushed phone

567
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: calls when there was nothing guaranteed about our reporting, and

568
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: there was, if anything, we kept hearing like nobody's going

569
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 1: to care. Um, you can report the story. You go

570
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: ahead and publish it, little ladies, and nothing's going to change. Um,

571
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, good luck thinking that this is going to

572
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: make a difference. And so you know, boy, were they wrong?

573
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: And so exactly where to me two stands five years

574
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: later and where it's headed. And I mean that's something

575
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: that Jody and I will continue to report on. But

576
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: we also are very clear about the fact that we're reporters,

577
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: were not activists, were not advocates, were not policymakers. We

578
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: can't fix all of the problems of the world. We can.

579
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: It's our job to just try to bring them to

580
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: light as best as we can. You know, I wonder

581
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: if people would have paid attention to this if it

582
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: hadn't been celebrities. I mean, you've got that too, you know.

583
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: In terms of the Gwyneth Paltrow's of the world, the

584
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: Ashley Juts of the world, if you had talked about

585
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: some of these, uh, you know, women who were suffering

586
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: these indignities for years, if people would have read it,

587
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 1: and if it would have had the impact it did.

588
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: That's what one of our editors, Matt Purty, who's depicted

589
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: in the film, says sometimes he's remarked a few times

590
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,240
Speaker 1: in the last few years that this was the first

591
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,839
Speaker 1: big sexual harassment story in which the women actually had

592
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: more prestige and credibility than the man who was accused.

593
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: But listen, I mean you asked what the legacy you

594
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: know of this whole story is, and I think it's

595
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: a few things. I think it's that really just a

596
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: very small group of brave sources can have enormous impact worldwide,

597
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,440
Speaker 1: impact really from pretty much just a handful of people

598
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 1: who were willing to work with us. I think it's

599
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: the question of how it is that these experiences can

600
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: be so common. And the uprising we saw in Seen

601
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: was about how women all over the world who actually

602
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: had very little in common, you know, economically, religiously, culturally,

603
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: and yet they all had the same stories. You know,

604
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 1: how how is it. How could how could this behavior

605
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: be so universal? I think we're still grappling, you know,

606
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: with what that means. But then I think the final

607
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: legacy is the question of how you confront a bully.

608
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: It's a really hard question. I feel like I've been,

609
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: you know, struggling with that question since third grade. You know,

610
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: how do you confront a bully? That there is an answer?

611
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: And I feel like what I learned through this work

612
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: is that you do it together. You do it together.

613
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein is not, in fact invincible, even when everybody

614
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:18,919
Speaker 1: thinks he has a big thank you to Jodie Canter

615
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: and Megan Tuey. The movie She Said is in theater's

616
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: beginning November eight. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a

617
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,799
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Media and Katie Kurk Media. The

618
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: executive producers Army Katie Kuric and Courtney Litz. The supervising

619
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adrianna Fasio.

620
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: The show is edited and mixed by Derrick Clements. For

621
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: more information about today's episode, or to sign up for

622
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 1: my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Kurik

623
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: dot com. You can also find me at kay be Correct,

624
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

625
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,760
Speaker 1: podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

626
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,480
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.